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Hinge CEO: The Truth About Dating Apps, Attraction And Finding Love In 2024! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 17,694 words · 2,729 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00We've done deep dive research studies on
0:02how can we help everyone to become more
0:04successful daters.
0:05So, what makes daters successful?
0:07So, the faster that you can
0:09the faster you're going to find someone
0:11who's like, yes, this is the type of
0:12person that I want to be with.
0:15Justin McLeod, the founder and CEO of
0:18the fastest growing dating app, Hinge.
0:20I built Hinge because I wanted a
0:21girlfriend, but we had to suffer through
0:23a lot of failure to finally get to
0:24success. Why does the world need another
0:27dating app?
0:28I think it just needs one really that
0:29works well.
0:30I'm going to be completely honest. Much
0:32of the reason why I never used dating
0:33apps is I had no success. So, if I
0:35wanted to be the world's worst dating
0:37app user, what would I have to do? A lot
0:39of filtered photos with you in
0:41sunglasses or hanging out with a lot of
0:42friends, one-word answers to your
0:44prompts, just like everyone. And what
0:46about serial daters?
0:47Some of us have models in our head that
0:49are exceedingly narrow. They have to be
0:51over 6 ft and need to work in this type
0:53of job. And so, you go out and you're
0:55just looking for some reason to say no
0:57because it doesn't fit your model. Give
0:59people more of a chance.
1:00AI, the conversation around AI and
1:02relationships has always been quite
1:04pessimistic. Sex robots and stuff.
1:05Yeah, that's certainly not going to be
1:07what Hinge is working on.
1:11The bigger leap though is to move much
1:13closer to a matchmaker model and setting
1:15up dates with a much higher likelihood
1:16of success. It's happening already. It
1:18used to take a thousand swipes in order
1:20to get on a date and now about 50 likes.
1:23Have you seen any changes in the dating
1:25culture? Yeah, in order to get on a
1:27date, people need to know this. So,
1:32Quick one. This is really, really
1:33fascinating to me. On the back end of
1:35our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9%
1:39of you that watch this channel
1:40frequently over the lifetime of this
1:41channel haven't yet hit the subscribe
1:43button. I just wanted to ask you a
1:45favor. It helps this channel so much if
1:47you choose to just subscribe. Helps us
1:49scale the guests, helps us scale the
1:50production, and it makes the show
1:52bigger. So, if I could ask you for one
1:53favor, if you've watched this show
1:55before and you've enjoyed it and you
1:56like this episode that you're currently
1:57watching, could you please hit the
1:59subscribe button? Thank you so much and
2:01I will repay that gesture by making sure
2:04that everything we do here gets better
2:05and better and better and better. That
2:06is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do
2:08we have a deal?
2:16Justin,
2:17what is your job title?
2:20And
2:21founder and CEO of Hinge. And to
2:24quantify what Hinge is and the impact it
2:28has on the world, how many people use it
2:29as a product, its reach, can you give me
2:32some color towards that? Uh, like I can
2:35say that today we're setting up a date
2:37about every 2 seconds. So, every other
2:39second someone's going on a date because
2:41of Hinge.
2:42Um, we've created
2:44millions of relationships and it's I'd
2:47say marriages at this point. The scale
2:49is far beyond I think what I imagined
2:51when I when I started this thing.
2:53I probably need to understand you a
2:55little bit better because it's so
2:57abundantly clear from all the CEOs that
2:58I've interviewed that
3:00there's often a series of catalyst
3:02moments that send them on the path
3:04indirectly. I mean, it's like the first
3:06domino that falls in their life that
3:08brings them to be sat here today for for
3:10us to be talking about it. What are
3:11those first dominoes in your life that
3:13fell?
3:14I I don't I think there are a number of
3:15them that probably like ended up
3:17defining my my life. I was an only
3:20child. Um, had a entrepreneur father who
3:24had a ran a small business. And um, and
3:28my mom worked for my dad.
3:30I was sort of naturally as a kid good at
3:33math. I was good at computer science.
3:36Uh, I would spend my summers at nerd
3:37camp
3:38uh, going and learning how to like code
3:40as a kid. And I will say addiction is
3:43the last piece cuz I I wanted I like was
3:45desperate to be cool, was desperate to
3:46fit in.
3:48And that actually became like a huge
3:50piece of it as well for me. In your
3:51first year of university, you went to
3:53see a drug and alcohol counselor. Is
3:54that correct? I did. So, when I went to
3:56college, you know, it was I would say
3:59the overachieving part of me started to
4:01slip away and I just kind of just
4:03doubled down on the uh, drinking and
4:06drugs and partying. My freshman year, at
4:09the end of my freshman year, I thought
4:10to myself like, gosh, you know, like I
4:12haven't been to bed sober since school
4:14began. Like not one single night. And
4:18maybe I have a problem. Like maybe
4:20something's going on here. So, I I
4:22voluntarily went in to see this drug and
4:23alcohol counselor. It's like very sweet
4:25woman named Jane.
4:27And she listened to me empathetically
4:29and heard me out and she was like,
4:31Justin, you know, I I think that you
4:33probably have a pretty serious problem
4:35with drugs and alcohol. I think that you
4:36should definitely keep coming back and
4:38seeing me and I think you should stop.
4:40And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
4:42whoa. Like that's that was like, what
4:44are you talking about? I'm like a
4:4519-year-old kid. So, I just kind of
4:48ignored that and went about the the
4:50partying. Um, but I had some inkling at
4:53that point that like probably something
4:54was not good.
4:57You had to rehab eventually.
4:59I did. I had to spend my summer in rehab
5:02after my freshman year in order to even
5:04come back to school because I had I
5:05would I'd still get in trouble a lot at
5:08like with campus safety or whatever,
5:10getting caught drinking or
5:13uh, and I'd been written up so many
5:14times that I actually got referred back
5:16to that same drug and alcohol counselor
5:17for an assessment. She's like, well,
5:19I've already actually assessed this kid.
5:20He's clearly has a problem. So, I had to
5:22spend my summer in rehab in order to
5:24even come back my sophomore year. So
5:27many people I've spoken to had an
5:28alcohol addiction at some point in their
5:29life. Speak about the 12-step program
5:32and the role that that played in them
5:34turning their lives around.
5:36Did you When did did you learn about the
5:3712-step program at all and did it help?
5:40I did and I would occasionally go to
5:41meetings and they were like
5:44people from the town. Like no one no no
5:46one from like college was going to
5:47these. I was literally only college
5:49student. I did stop drinking the the and
5:53the day that I graduated from college.
5:55And um, and 12-step programs was like a
5:59a huge piece of of my recovery after
6:02that time. Why that day?
6:06I woke up that morning
6:08after being out at a party the night
6:09before. Was graduating that day. I'd
6:12gotten a okay job in Washington D.C.
6:15where I was going to move in the in once
6:17school ended.
6:19But I just remember thinking to myself
6:21like
6:23that the steering wheel of my life was
6:25broken. That's kind of how I and I think
6:26that gets back to your sort of
6:27enslavement idea or that you just don't
6:29have control anymore. Like I envisioned
6:31my life going like this direction. Like
6:33I I wanted to have a big career. I
6:36wanted to go make an impact in the
6:37world. I wanted to have like deep
6:38friendships. I wanted all these things
6:40and yet every day it was like one more
6:42drink. Right? One more drug and tomorrow
6:46I'll like start putting my life
6:47together. And I've been telling myself
6:49that for years at that point. And I
6:52remember thinking to myself like, I
6:53don't know what the point of living is
6:54if if like without drinking.
6:57But I'm going to try to find out.
7:00And it was just like, how much longer am
7:02I going to allow this to continue to to
7:04go? Like I I
7:06I didn't get the job that I wanted,
7:07right? I wanted I wanted to go work at a
7:10you know, Goldman Sachs in banking,
7:12which is the and that's just like what
7:14the I was a mathematical economics major
7:16and that's what all like the top math
7:17econ majors went and did.
7:19And
7:21and I didn't I didn't get the job. I got
7:22some like, you know, decent job at some
7:25management consulting firm that no one's
7:27ever heard of in Washington D.C.
7:29And uh, I'd lost the girl, which we
7:32haven't talked about Kate yet, but my I
7:35had a girlfriend all through college and
7:36I'd like lost her. It's just It's just
7:38my life was like not headed in a good
7:41direction. It was so clear and I just
7:43viewed that as a moment to like change
7:45it. When did you meet Kate?
7:47I met Kate the
7:49basically like literally the day I got
7:51out of rehab. I like got out of rehab at
7:538:00 p.m. one night
7:55in Louisville, Kentucky. I drove all
7:57night back to school. And
8:00uh, and I woke up the next day and
8:02decided to celebrate getting out of
8:03rehab by going out and partying and
8:05drinking. And
8:07uh, Kate found me passed out in a
8:09stairwell, like on the landing of a
8:11stairwell. Uh, the first day of my
8:14sophomore year. It was her first day of
8:15school, first
8:16day of her freshman year.
8:18Later in that year, we had a class
8:20together. We started sitting together.
8:21We started getting to know each other
8:22and we just had this incredible like
8:24magnetic connection.
8:26When you reflect on meeting her and
8:30how you felt and all of those things. I
8:32mean, you now uh, working in the
8:34industry.
8:36When you look back, is there anything
8:39that is consistent with, you know, all
8:41the people that Hinge has brought
8:42together today that happened in that
8:44moment? Cuz, you know, you see on the
8:45movies they say you'll feel this thing
8:47in your belly and there'll be
8:48butterflies and there'll be crazy, you
8:49know, all this kind of stuff.
8:51What was your experience like? Did you
8:52have butterflies? Did you know she would
8:53they were the one?
8:55Um,
8:57I think I
8:58I'm not sure it was like the moment I
8:59saw Kate like I knew she was the one,
9:01but I think the
9:03our our like relationship really started
9:06to build as we got to know each other
9:07better. Um, so, it wasn't for me like
9:09one of those like instantaneous like
9:10this person is the person.
9:12It just grew really, really quickly as
9:14we got to know each other better.
9:17Whether that spark is a good thing or a
9:19bad thing, I think has been debated. I
9:20know you had Logan, our our relationship
9:22scientist on um, from Hinge and I think
9:25the spark can sort of like burn out and
9:27what you're looking for is really like a
9:28nice slow burn. Within 2 years you had
9:31broken up.
9:32Uh, we'd broken up like we were on and
9:34off
9:35you know, six or seven times I think
9:37during college. And then finally by the
9:38end of college we'd really like gone our
9:40separate ways. Once I gotten sober, um,
9:43I would think about reaching back out to
9:45her all the time. But I just wouldn't
9:48cuz I had enough sense to realize that
9:49like I had probably like messed up this
9:52girl's life enough and um, it just like
9:56wasn't healthy and so I would
9:58I remember being like a year two years
10:00sober, and I would like
10:02you know, dial her number on my phone,
10:04and I would just like stare at it,
10:06and then I would just like hit the end
10:07button, and
10:08I just didn't feel
10:11I just didn't feel like I was good for
10:12her, and I and I just needed to stay
10:14away.
10:15And when you ultimately end up reaching
10:16out to her when she's living in London
10:18and working in finance?
10:21Yeah, so I I
10:234 years in,
10:25I'm sober, I'm at business school, and I
10:29I
10:30finally I'm like, okay, I'm going to
10:31like write her a letter, like an apology
10:33letter,
10:35um
10:36and see if we can reconnect, and I I
10:40wrote her this letter, and she was
10:41living in she'd moved to London at that
10:42point.
10:44And she called me back the next day, and
10:46she was with someone at the time,
10:48and she's like, well, I'm going to be
10:50home for Christmas time, so maybe I can
10:51see you at Christmas time.
10:53And
10:54then she called me back the next day,
10:56and she's like, listen, I just if I see
10:58you, I don't know what's going to
10:58happen, and
11:01I just
11:04uh
11:05I have a stable life now, I have a
11:06partner, we just bought a flat, like I
11:09just can't. And so I was just totally
11:12heartbroken, cuz I really thought in the
11:13back of my mind like someday we'd I just
11:16felt like we were like meant to be
11:17together, and I thought like one day
11:19we're we're going to end up back
11:21together, and I think in that moment I
11:22realized like, wow, I've really messed
11:24this up, like there's no there's no
11:26going back.
11:27You were at Harvard at the time. Yeah.
11:29You're single. Mhm.
11:31You're sober.
11:33Which makes it hard to meet people, I
11:35guess.
11:35Precisely. I mean, that's the thing is I
11:36is I
11:37um both it was very special with her,
11:40and also I really had trouble meeting
11:41other other people. Like I really relied
11:44on drugs and alcohol as a crutch, and
11:46then when I graduated, I threw myself
11:48into work, and then I but then I arrive
11:50at business school, where I think by the
11:52way we're there to like study business,
11:53but it's like a huge party atmosphere,
11:55and like everyone connects around
11:56drinking and and partying, and I just
11:59couldn't
12:00it was like
12:01just too hard for me to be around any of
12:03that.
12:04Also hard for me to meet new people. I
12:06mean, that's the case for so many of us
12:07today. So many people who much of the
12:11reason it feels like they continue to
12:12drink and do those things which they
12:13don't necessarily love is because it's
12:16almost unavoidable if you want to it
12:18seems unavoidable if you want to
12:19socialize and be
12:21not be perceived as a weirdo.
12:23Yeah, and just the whole culture and the
12:24whole like the it was just all revolved
12:26around drinking. So it's it was just
12:27constantly saying no, constantly saying,
12:29no, thanks, I don't drink, like
12:31Is this at all correlated? You know,
12:33you're in that situation where you're
12:34you've given up drinking, you're a bit
12:36heartbroken. Does this also
12:39explain why you were so compelled to do
12:41something in the dating space?
12:44There was a business plan like a
12:45business school like
12:47business plan competition, and so I was
12:49working on like a few ideas for that.
12:52And nothing really hit. Like I was
12:54trying to work on I had like various
12:56little silly ideas, and I tried to work
12:58on them, but it always just felt like
13:00homework, and I just like wasn't getting
13:01much traction.
13:02And this was kind of shortly after
13:06everything had happened with Kate, and
13:08she'd, you know, told me in so many
13:09words that like
13:11it was time to move on.
13:12And
13:13there was this last chance dance party
13:16happening at at Harvard, where people
13:19were going to like list all their
13:20crushes, and then if two people like
13:23listed each other, they would like let
13:25you know right before the dance. So this
13:27was like a moment of like, okay, like
13:29we're heading towards the end of school.
13:30I think it was around Valentine's Day,
13:31and so this is like your last chance
13:33your second year. If there's anyone that
13:34you had a crush on, this is like your
13:35moment to find out.
13:37I was actually like pretty excited about
13:38this, cuz like I again I was like so
13:40awkward. Like I didn't know how to like
13:42connect with people or meet new people.
13:43I just like I didn't know how to do that
13:44without the crutch of of alcohol and
13:46drugs, and I was walking to class one
13:48day with the with the um student body
13:51president, this guy Brett,
13:54and he was like, yeah, we actually
13:55decided to scrap the whole thing. It was
13:56just too complicated. Like a thousand
13:58people all listing each other. Like how
13:59are we going to manage all the
14:01you know, like too hard. Like we just
14:03scrapped that whole thing.
14:05I I I went to class, I started sitting
14:07there, I started thinking, and I was
14:08like,
14:10I bet I could just like build this
14:12really quick on Facebook. Like I I I
14:14used to code. I like knew how these kind
14:16of things got worked, and Facebook had
14:18recently opened up their API for canvas
14:19apps like FarmVille and things like
14:21that. I was like, you could just like go
14:23through and just check your friends that
14:24you liked, and you can just build
14:25something like this really quick on
14:26Facebook. So I enlisted a friend, um
14:29her her name is Francis, and we got
14:31together, and we built this thing, um
14:34where people could like list their
14:35crushes on Facebook, and it would tell
14:37you if two people matched, and we
14:38launched it,
14:40and it made a bunch of matches, and it
14:41was fun, and people had like a good
14:43time, but
14:44then
14:46it was
14:47you know, you find out if you have a
14:48crush, you either do or you don't, and
14:51then everyone's done with it.
14:53But the idea then started to to like
14:55percolate in my mind like, what if you
14:57could actually introduce people to their
14:59friends of friends? Because at the time
15:02there was there were online dating
15:03sites, but no one my age used them.
15:05There was a lot of stigma around it, cuz
15:07it was like a long arduous process you
15:09did on desktop computers, you answered
15:11like deep questions about yourself, you
15:14paid a lot of money usually to use them.
15:17And the idea of like creating something
15:18like really simple and easy that would
15:20just connect you to friends of friends
15:21suddenly just like popped in my mind,
15:23and I don't know how to describe it. I
15:25just like I was so excited about this
15:27idea. I was just convinced this is going
15:28to be the future of how people were
15:29going to date, and I like couldn't stop
15:31working on it. And to set the scene
15:33there a little bit, this is a time which
15:34is hard to remember where there's like
15:36OKCupid and match.com, but there's not
15:39like mobile dating apps. Right. That's
15:40exactly right. There were no nothing was
15:42mobile, and nothing no one really used
15:44it, or if you used it, you didn't really
15:45talk about it. Like people my age just
15:47like didn't use or talk about online
15:50dating services. That was just not a
15:51thing. The term dating app was not even
15:54a term yet.
15:55Do you think that's it? Cuz I so many
15:57people
15:58ask me the question about how to know
16:00which idea to pursue.
16:02Many entrepreneur types, creatives have
16:04lots of ideas. They have a shelf full of
16:06them. Yeah.
16:08Um
16:09how do we know which one is the one
16:11worth pursuing?
16:13I I can only speak to my experience.
16:14Like I don't know what the right what
16:16the right answer is, but I will say that
16:17when I was I had other ideas that were
16:19interesting to me like intellectually.
16:21Like, yeah, like this is a good idea, um
16:25but it just didn't hit me in my heart,
16:27and I would I would like try to work on
16:29it, but like I said, it felt like it
16:31felt like doing homework. Like, okay,
16:32I'll like force myself to work on this,
16:34but it just wasn't
16:35I don't know. And then when the idea for
16:37Hinge hit me,
16:39I don't I just don't know how to
16:40describe it except to say like it it was
16:43like it like infected me, and this this
16:45this service this app was like going to
16:47come out of me no no matter what, and
16:49it's like I like was almost possessed to
16:51have to work on it.
16:52But I think there was a the the magic of
16:54me being open and like thinking about
16:55ideas and trying to work on ideas, and
16:57then I was like open, and then when the
16:58right idea hit,
17:00it almost didn't even feel like a
17:01choice. Like I just had to work on this.
17:03So many people have the idea, so many
17:05people feel infected by their belief in
17:08that idea, but then
17:10the vast majority will
17:11be
17:13incarcerated by fear and
17:15you know, loads of naysayers telling
17:17them, you can't make an a dating app.
17:19What the hell is that?
17:20Yeah.
17:22Which is exactly the feedback that I
17:23got, by the way. Like I entered it in
17:24the business plan competition. We were,
17:27you know, we didn't place at all. We
17:29were told like this is a horrible idea.
17:30I wrote a paper on it for our class.
17:32They told me it was a horrible idea. I
17:35um I had friends telling me it was a
17:36horrible idea.
17:38I would later try to raise money, and
17:39VCs would tell me it was a horrible like
17:40everyone was like there was very little
17:42positive feedback I was getting on the
17:43idea for Hinge.
17:45I just had this
17:46thesis that if you could make a a dating
17:49service that was stigma-free, if you
17:50could make something that was really fun
17:52and easy and lightweight, then young
17:54people would use it. I would I would I'd
17:56always hear that the dating market is
17:58full, it's saturated. This is what VCs
18:00would tell me when I would try to raise
18:02money. They'd be like, match.com owns
18:03this market, you'll never be able to
18:04beat them.
18:06And I remember thinking to myself like,
18:08it's not how could you say a market is
18:10saturated? Like I don't I almost know no
18:12one who uses dating services. Like it's
18:14not saturated. You just have to fix the
18:16problem why people don't use it, and
18:18people don't use it because it it has
18:20stigma to it. We we can't remember that.
18:22Yeah. This this generation can't
18:24remember that there was a stigma around
18:26dating on the internet. In fact, what's
18:28so funny is as you said the word stigma,
18:30I said to myself, what stigma? And I
18:32thought and then I thought back to my
18:34childhood, and and I remember the
18:37what I thought of people that used
18:38match.com. Yeah.
18:40Lonely weirdos.
18:41Totally. And that was definitely that
18:42was that's how people
18:45that's how people thought about it in
18:462011. It was just not
18:49you know, the iPhone had just come out a
18:51few years ago. The App Store was
18:52relatively new. Yeah, and people did not
18:55meet strangers on the internet to go
18:57date. That was just weird. So when did
18:59it go from
19:01Facebook to an app?
19:04Uh so we started working on it. It was
19:06originally this yeah, Facebook canvas
19:08app, and
19:10that was 2011 to 2012, and um
19:14but it was really having trouble
19:17getting people to adopt this thing. I
19:19was not a good product designer, not a
19:21good brand. It was originally called
19:22Secret Agent Cupid. It would uh
19:25introduce you to friends of friends,
19:27but it was really a complex
19:30user interface. You'd like answer
19:32questions about your friends. There were
19:33like little rankings. Like it was try to
19:36be really social and like show you which
19:37of your friends are most in demand. It
19:39had like all these different components
19:40to it. It was like way overcomplicated.
19:42People would come in, and they like
19:43wouldn't understand like, why am I
19:44answering questions about my friends?
19:45Like, what's this? I'm here to date.
19:47Around the end of 2012, I'd raised a
19:49little bit of money from just like
19:51angels and friends and family, like
19:52$100,000 or so.
19:54We're running out of money, not making a
19:57lot of progress. I made the call around
19:59Thanksgiving. I got together with my
20:01team and I was like, we just need to
20:02start over from scratch. Let's throw
20:04this whole thing out. Mobile is the
20:06future.
20:07That's more things are trying to come
20:08out on the App Store around this time.
20:10So, let's redesign it for mobile and
20:12let's make it just like a dead simple.
20:14We'll just you connect your Facebook
20:16account, we'll show you a photo, you
20:18know, their age, like one or two lines
20:20about them, and then you just say yes or
20:22no, are you interested in this person?
20:24We had literally like 2 and 1/2 months
20:26left of cash to like tear everything
20:28down, rebuild it from scratch, and then
20:30take our remaining money and throw a
20:32giant launch party in Washington D.C.
20:35With your remaining money? Yeah, that's
20:37it. Literally took our last $25,000 and
20:38threw a giant open bar party in D.C. And
20:43you had to download the app to get in.
20:45We had submitted our app to the App
20:47Store
20:48with what we thought was like plenty of
20:49time, about 2 weeks. Um, and App Store
20:52review times were typically like just a
20:53couple days at that point.
20:56And then a few days go by, we don't hear
20:57anything back. A week goes by, we still
20:59haven't heard anything back.
21:01Uh, I started trying to reach out to
21:03like the head of the App Store, but no
21:05one who they don't care I'm like some
21:06random kid like with a app idea.
21:09No one would return my calls.
21:11It is now the night before the launch
21:13party and we still have no we don't have
21:15actually have an app to launch. So, I
21:16like literally have like my last
21:19$25,000 spent on this launch party with
21:22no app. I remember being
21:25literally like sitting we had a little
21:27co-working space and that night I was
21:29just like sitting on the floor like
21:31covered up my head in the in my jacket
21:35and just crying on the floor thinking
21:37like, wow, these last 2 years have been
21:38for like nothing. I've worked so hard
21:41and I'm going to launch an app tomorrow
21:43there's no App Store like there's 2,000
21:44people are coming and there's no app.
21:48And then I went home that night and um,
21:50woke up the next morning and somehow
21:51miraculously
21:53uh, the app had been approved in the App
21:54Store.
21:55And so, we had the party that night.
21:582,500 people came. They all saw each
22:00other using the app.
22:02The next day people we made more matches
22:04than we'd made in the entire history of
22:06the app up until that point.
22:07And they had to download it to get in.
22:09They had to download it to get in.
22:11And that helped overcome I think you had
22:12to like jump-start the stigma cuz we had
22:15a lot of like the very like the cool
22:16people in the social scene in Washington
22:19D.C. coming and all downloading it in
22:21front of each other and talking about
22:22it. And so, the fact that it was like
22:25really really dead simple and the fact
22:26that everyone saw each other using it, I
22:28think like started to like jump-start
22:30and get over that stigma problem. And
22:32then we had like 400 people log in the
22:34next day and we're like, okay, wow, if
22:35you 400 people on their own came in. I
22:37mean, up until that point it was such a
22:39like literally a trickle of users coming
22:41into our like little app. Like I would
22:43I'd I remember I would like sit there
22:44and like look at the logs and people
22:46like a user would come in and like, oh,
22:48okay, like a there's a user using the
22:50app. And then we're like, okay, then he
22:51just clicked this button and like then
22:53he like passed and then and then he
22:54would leave and I'm like, okay, wait for
22:56the next user to come in like sitting
22:57just like watching the logs.
22:59So, hundreds of people coming the next
23:01day,
23:02few hundred more the next day, and then
23:04it just started to like build and build
23:05and build after that.
23:06Was it like a snowball effect?
23:09Yeah, it really was. And and once once
23:11we'd hit it with the with the product,
23:14it started to spread through word of
23:15mouth.
23:16Then people in D.C. started to tell
23:18their friends in New York and then we
23:19started to build up a waitlist there and
23:21then people in New York told their
23:22friends in San Francisco and they would
23:23like build the waitlist up there.
23:25And then we would start opening cities
23:27one at a time once we felt like we had
23:28enough liquidity. And how would you open
23:29those cities? Was it the same
23:31We'd throw another launch party. Like
23:32no, literally my life was just like
23:34throwing launch parties in cities like
23:35we would we would, you know, from Boston
23:38and San Francisco and um, New York and
23:42L.A. We were just like
23:43I remember 2012 well and there was
23:46that was kind of the golden age of
23:49apps in a way. I remember cuz we worked
23:51a lot quite a lot on um,
23:53on apps back then and uh,
23:56there wasn't many apps. The App Store
23:58was was grow felt like it was growing
24:00very quickly. I was, you know, people
24:01were discovering lots of new apps all
24:03the time. Feel like people are
24:04discovering less apps at the moment. I
24:05don't know if that's true or not, but it
24:07just felt like that was kind of the app
24:08boom moment. So, things like a launch
24:10party I can you know, I can see how
24:12those things would work then, but I I
24:13question whether people listening to
24:15this right now that have got an app and
24:17they've got $25,000 for a launch party
24:19and like that's that's what solves all
24:20their problems. Probably not. Yeah.
24:22So interesting. And then Tinder around
24:24that time starts to emerge a bit bit
24:26foot further on, right?
24:28Yeah, right about that time. So, right
24:29around the time we threw that launch
24:30party, I think Tinder had launched just
24:32a couple months prior out in L.A. So,
24:35almost the exact same time. We had a
24:36very similar model.
24:38They took off hugely
24:41and we started to grow as well. In fact,
24:42their growth helped our growth because
24:44it would like the category was emerging
24:45and now people were like um, seeing
24:48Tinder and Tinder was a
24:50was an app that was all about location
24:53and ours was all about friends of
24:54friends. And that was really the the
24:55main difference.
24:57But, as a result, people viewed Hinge as
24:59like this sort of like
25:01more serious intent dating app because
25:04it was friends of friends, people you
25:05meet at a house party or dinner or
25:06wedding, whereas like the other one was
25:07a little bit more of like a casual
25:09reputation and like meeting at a club.
25:13And as a result, all of a sudden the VCs
25:15who were telling me there's no way this
25:16market's totally saturated, now I was no
25:19longer begging for money. I was like
25:20turning away. There were people were
25:21trying to send like like trying to raise
25:23around at that point. Um, we went from
25:25like
25:26you know, begging for scraps to like
25:29raising almost a $20 million round where
25:30I was turning away money because I just
25:32couldn't take anymore. So, it really
25:35that changed the game.
25:37And was it a straight line up from
25:39there? Huh. Uh, no, definitely not.
25:42So, we had some good success in 2013,
25:452014.
25:472015 growth started to level out. Um,
25:50Tinder had definitely gotten successful.
25:52Beat us at the game of like overcoming
25:54stigma. Like
25:56that it was cool to use. It was cool it
25:58was it was quick. It was easy. It was
26:00fun.
26:01Ours was just like
26:04a Tinder
26:06copy that was friends of friends, but we
26:07weren't we were like the growth just
26:09like wasn't there and um, and more
26:13importantly though,
26:15around that time there was an article
26:16that came out in Vanity Fair called like
26:18the dawn of the dating apocalypse. It
26:20was all about how dating apps had
26:21destroyed dating culture and romance and
26:24and Hinge was featured like
26:26pretty heavily in that article.
26:28I always remember just thinking like,
26:28gosh, this is not what I
26:30like I built this because I like wanted
26:32a girlfriend. Like this is not what I
26:35what I wanted to build from a like a
26:37values perspective.
26:39I I remember going out with my
26:41my head of marketing at that time, her
26:43name was Katie, and I was I was about to
26:44head home for Thanksgiving and we sat at
26:45a little cafe in New York and
26:48I I was just telling her like, gosh, I I
26:50like
26:51I wish I could just start over from
26:52scratch. Like this is not the company I
26:53want to build. This is not what I want
26:55to do. And she's like, well, I mean,
26:56you're the CEO. Like what's stopping
26:58you?
26:59I went home and I thought about that
27:00and, you know,
27:02nothing was stop like what was stopping
27:03me? We just raised a big round. We had
27:05resources. And so,
27:07uh, I decided to reboot the company
27:10again. So, we first reboot 2012. Uh,
27:13this reboot let go of half the company
27:16and then threw out the old code base and
27:18built something new from scratch that
27:20would be about
27:22really helping people who wanted to find
27:24their person with like a long-term
27:26relationship brand
27:28and totally changed the user interface
27:31and the profiles and the whole flow and
27:34design it for people who actually like
27:35really want to find their person.
27:37If you hadn't have had that interview
27:39with Deborah from cafe.com Mhm. before,
27:43right? Yeah.
27:45Do you think you would have made that
27:46decision? Tell me about that interview
27:48with Deborah from cafe.com and how
27:51changed changed things for you. So, in
27:532014,
27:55someone reached out to me, her name was
27:57Deborah, and she had downloaded Hinge.
28:01She lived in New York.
28:03And the very first person that she that
28:06like we suggested to her, she liked and
28:08matched with and then fallen in love
28:10with. And so, she'd reached out and was
28:12like, how did you like I want to learn
28:14more about you, want to learn about your
28:15company. We were just, you know, we were
28:17getting popular in New York, but not
28:18hugely popular.
28:20So, we met up for an interview one day
28:22in Madison Square Park near my office
28:24and
28:25um,
28:26and I you know, I didn't have my I like
28:28it was dumb luck. Like I don't know the
28:30like the first person that happened to
28:31show up on her app. Like we didn't we
28:33didn't
28:34it was just we were lucky. But,
28:37as we chatted, um, you know, kind of a
28:39standard interview, at the very end of
28:41the interview, we were getting up and
28:42she's like, you know, one last question,
28:44have you ever been in love? And I was
28:45like, well,
28:46once a long time ago, but I, you know, I
28:48just didn't realize it until it was too
28:50late.
28:51And Deborah turns off the tape recorder
28:53and she's like, listen, I have to tell
28:54you a story.
28:55And she tells me
28:57the story of of how actually she sort of
29:00had this misconnection moment. She
29:02wasn't with someone that she had met
29:03much younger and they had found each
29:06other all these years later and realized
29:07they should have been together.
29:09And she was like,
29:10you know,
29:11you don't have to make the same mistake
29:13I did. Like you can still be with the
29:14one. You just have to do something
29:15dramatic. You have to just go over there
29:16and like pour your heart out and like
29:18put yourself on the line.
29:19And I was like, listen, lady, like
29:23you know, it's been almost 8 years since
29:25I've even seen her. It's it's kind of
29:27over. There's there's no way.
29:30That said, I was about to head over to
29:32the um,
29:34launch party for Hinge in London
29:37and I thought,
29:39okay, like
29:40I'll just shoot her one last note. And
29:42so, I reached out to her and I said,
29:44hey, I'm going to be in London.
29:47Would love 15 minutes just say hi and
29:48goodbye. It's just weird to think that
29:49we're never going to see each other
29:50again.
29:52And she wrote back and she was like,
29:55uh for the first time, so and and now
29:57another 4 years. And
30:00uh
30:01she was like, "Listen, I don't live in
30:02London anymore. I live in Switzerland,
30:04but
30:05um I'll be around this weekend and um
30:08happy to hop on the phone."
30:11So, I
30:13like got that message. I went to the
30:15airport. I got the I got a ticket to
30:17Switzerland. I got on a plane to Zurich.
30:20And um
30:22and she
30:23reached out the next day. She's like,
30:24"Hey, I'm around if you want to chat."
30:26And I'm like, "Great, cuz I'm going
30:27through customs in Zurich right now."
30:29And she agreed to meet me at a little
30:31cafe.
30:32And uh we sat down with each other. And
30:35I I think at that time I
30:39you know, part of me thought like I
30:40really want the girl back. Like this is
30:42it. And part of me thought like
30:44it's been 8 years. Like I've changed so
30:45much as a person. Like I'm sober now.
30:47I'm like running this company. Like
30:49she's
30:51with someone else now. And by the way,
30:53it was literally like a month away from
30:54getting married at that point. She was
30:56She had a fiance. She had a fiance,
30:58yeah. And and to be married in a month.
31:00Like
31:00uh so
31:02like on the verge of getting married.
31:06So, I thought we'd see each other and
31:07kind of just like
31:09laugh it off and glad we saw each other
31:11and and you know, I just did I honestly
31:13didn't know what was going to happen. It
31:14was like it felt
31:15but there was this hope in me that like,
31:17"Wow, maybe she really is the one. Maybe
31:18we'll like realize it." And we sat down
31:20at this little cafe and um
31:24and it was just like
31:27uh
31:28I think we both felt like an incredible
31:29amount of
31:31that connection that we'd always had.
31:33And we sat and we we talked for like 7
31:35or 8 straight hours in this cafe. Never
31:37even got up to get a coffee. And
31:40at the end of that conversation she's
31:41like,
31:43"I think I'm calling off the wedding."
31:44And um
31:47And so
31:49uh about a week later she moved out of
31:51Zurich and moved from
31:53um back into back to New York into my
31:55like 300-sq-ft apartment in the West
31:58Village.
31:59And
32:01and my
32:03and this is a long way of getting back
32:04to your question, which is like how does
32:05this relate to Hinge and would I have
32:07done the reboot? Because
32:09here I am and I've like gotten
32:12the person. Like this is the person that
32:13I've always want like wanted. Like I
32:15finally got her back. And it was totally
32:18amazing for
32:21like a month or 2 or 3 months maybe max.
32:24And then the honeymoon period ended and
32:27we're two people living in this little
32:29tiny apartment together in New York who
32:31haven't seen each other in 8 years.
32:33And we've got to like start figuring
32:35each other out. And it wasn't perfect.
32:38And
32:39the part of me like I would have if I
32:42were just dating this person, I would
32:43have run, right? I would have like cut
32:45it off and been like, "Okay, like not
32:47the right person. Like
32:49it's not it's not perfect like I
32:50imagined it was going to be." But she'd
32:52called off this life. She like cut She
32:54you know, she'd left a her person. She'd
32:56left um
32:58her whole existence over there. So, I
33:00couldn't just like break up with her.
33:03And that's when I think the real work of
33:05the relationship started and like real
33:08intimacy and vulnerability and like love
33:11started to form. And I realized like I
33:12would have just passed over this person.
33:14And I think it just totally changed my
33:17my mentality of how
33:20a dating app should be designed. Because
33:22I think up until that point I thought
33:24you know, it's a it's a numbers game.
33:25You just got to like get through enough
33:27people and once you find your person,
33:28then it's
33:29then it's kind of happily ever after
33:30after that.
33:32And
33:33realizing that like how many people, you
33:36know, we all must just skate right past
33:39because we don't because we're not
33:41vulnerable, because they're not
33:42vulnerable and we failed to like make
33:44that connection.
33:46And so I wanted to like rebuild an app
33:48if it were really for a relationships,
33:51um you just it would be a very different
33:53kind of app. You would have to like have
33:54people slow down. You would have to have
33:56people be more vulnerable. You'd have to
33:57people share about themselves and put
33:59themselves on the line a bit more in
34:01order to form that initial connection.
34:03And so that was the foundation and sort
34:04of like the design principles for
34:07what we wanted to
34:09build with the new Hinge.
34:12Fairy tale endings are made for movies
34:15because there's a lot of work that
34:16happens when the credits after the
34:17credits roll. Totally.
34:20Yeah, we were just getting started. I
34:21had no idea.
34:23And you also when you talk about this
34:25new vision for Hinge, it's quite
34:27idealistic. You know, this idea of just
34:28being able to create an app where people
34:30slow down and they give more information
34:31and then more vulnerable. It tends to be
34:33the case that your ideal scenario for
34:36how humans behave isn't actually how
34:38they want to behave. Right. Especially
34:41these days because we're all we all
34:42believe things should be like quick and
34:43easy.
34:45And it's not quick and easy. You get you
34:47get out what you put in. And so we were
34:51always fighting this balance of like
34:52what people are willing to do and what
34:54they should do. You know, and and we
34:56were trying to to like we could of
34:58course build an app that's just like
35:01makes it like what people think that
35:03they want, which is like quick and easy
35:04and fun.
35:05But you have to slow people down, get
35:08them to put in a little bit more effort.
35:10And it's a real
35:12it's a real balance of of like
35:14getting people to be
35:16vulnerable as much as at least they can
35:19tolerate.
35:20And because the more that they are, the
35:22more effective their experience is, the
35:24better chance that they have of finding
35:25their person. How was that received when
35:27you come up with this new vision for
35:28Hinge, which is going to be slower, much
35:29more meaningful, and much more deeper,
35:31and really based on forming long-term
35:32connections? How was that received by
35:34people?
35:35Uh
35:35I think in theory
35:37it was
35:39it was
35:40celebrated, right? In theory I think
35:41people are like, "Yes, the world needs
35:43this kind of this kind of new thing.
35:44Like we definitely want something that's
35:46like a little bit less like fast food
35:47and more like
35:49you know, a nice nutritious meal when it
35:50comes to dating."
35:52You know, it was it was still hard to
35:54really get people like they like it in
35:56theory, but then they're like, "Wait, I
35:57have to fill out like three prompts?
35:58Like wait, I don't just swipe on people.
36:00I have to like like something about
36:01them? Um wait, if I like someone,
36:03they're just going to see it? Like
36:05you're just going to tell them? I have
36:06to add a comment and like say something
36:08about them?"
36:09So, it was like a lot to get people's
36:11head around who are used to something
36:12that was quite different. But it was
36:15effective. And that's what mattered the
36:17most. And you know, the that was a it
36:19was such a huge mindset and shift for us
36:23to stop thinking about user engagement
36:25and user retention and all these like
36:27classic metrics that you know, VCs look
36:30for when they look at like social media
36:31apps.
36:32And to just think, are we getting people
36:34out on more good dates or not? And
36:36that's going to be our North Star metric
36:37and we'll grow through word of mouth
36:39because people are actually going to go
36:40on good dates and they're going to tell
36:41their friends about it. And so that was
36:42our North Star.
36:44And so we didn't worry so much about
36:46like all those engagement metrics and
36:49you know, we didn't there weren't as
36:50many matches and there wasn't as much
36:52whatever engagement on the app. It was
36:54actually way more efficient and
36:56effective at getting people out on good
36:57dates. And so we launched this new
37:00thing. Our user numbers actually started
37:01to decline initially from the old
37:03version of the app.
37:05And what about money?
37:06Yeah, and so right about that time we're
37:08starting to we've burned through all
37:10that cash in order to build this new app
37:11and we're starting to run out. And so I
37:13went out to start fundraising again and
37:16telling the story of like, "Look at
37:17these
37:18like we were way more effective now.
37:20People love the product."
37:22But on the other hand, we used to have I
37:25don't know at the time 400, 500,000
37:27users and now we're down to like
37:28100,000, 150,000 users. And that's a
37:30pretty tough
37:32story to tell to venture capitalists.
37:34And But you're shrinking. Yeah, we're
37:36shrinking. But
37:37But we're going to grow because look at
37:39how amazing these and no one like really
37:42bought that story. And I was flying
37:44around everywhere talking to every VC.
37:47And I could talk to you know, at that
37:48point Hinge has gotten popular enough
37:50that any VC would like take my meeting
37:51and talk to me.
37:52But it was just I probably had 50 or 60
37:55VC meetings and like not a single not a
37:58single yes. But at right on that time we
38:00also started talking to um Match Group.
38:04They saw they could see what I saw. They
38:08saw, "Wow, this is actually something
38:09that's different. It's differentiated
38:11and it has real promise."
38:14And so when we were down to like once
38:16again like days of cash, while like a
38:18week or two left of cash, we negotiated
38:21a a deal for like an initial investment
38:22from them.
38:24That would set the stage for them to
38:25eventually acquire the company.
38:28And between 2016
38:30and 2019 when they acquired the company,
38:32what was growth like?
38:34Uh it was slow at first. 2016, 2017 we
38:37were kind of still figuring out the it
38:39was a completely new model. And so we
38:41were figuring out how to really make
38:43that new model work. And we were like
38:45you know, um tuning it.
38:47And around 2018 we felt like, "Okay,
38:49we've really started to like now people
38:51are really starting to love this app.
38:53It's starting to really grow through
38:54word of mouth."
38:56And and then we started to
38:58like pour on marketing money and at that
38:59point it was showing like how much that
39:01could accelerate the growth. And that's
39:02when Match Group invested. Hinge Labs.
39:05Mhm. What is Hinge Labs? I don't believe
39:08any other dating apps have something
39:09like Hinge Labs. Yeah, and it's all part
39:12of this idea that we want to build like
39:14we're just focus on user effectiveness.
39:17And does this actually get people out on
39:19good dates? And a huge piece of the you
39:23know, a dating app is is relatively
39:25unique. It's not just a piece of
39:26technology. It's
39:29you know, what what it's the people that
39:32are on there and how they're behaving
39:33and the technology. Like that's your
39:35experience as a user. It's not just like
39:37we it no matter how good we get at
39:39product and product design or whatever.
39:40Like we have to control for the
39:41behaviors of other people and making
39:43sure that we have the right people on
39:44who are behaving the right way. You
39:45know, we can only guide them so much
39:47with um
39:49you know, UX. We also have to like kind
39:51of coach people and guide people and
39:52teach people how to become better
39:54daters.
39:55And so, Hinge X or I'm sorry, Hinge Labs
39:57was developed to sort of study daters
40:00who are successful, study daters who are
40:02not successful, figure out what are the
40:04patterns, what do we see, and how can we
40:07help level up everyone to become better
40:10and more successful daters. And so,
40:13Hinge Labs really does, you know, deep
40:15dive research studies on just what is
40:19what makes daters successful,
40:21um and and gives us the fuel to be able
40:24to um
40:26build better product or build user
40:28guides, things like that.
40:30So, what makes daters successful?
40:33Makes dating successful? Yeah, like, you
40:35know, I've got friends that seem to be
40:36successful at dating and friends that
40:38are just those prolific serial daters
40:40that go on 100 dates a year and never
40:41seem to make any progress. Yeah. And
40:44also, are there like categories of
40:46daters that you talk about? You must
40:47have got like categories like the serial
40:49dater that's never going to be
40:50successful. They're just doing it for
40:51the fun of it. Yeah.
40:52like one-hit wonder. We We definitely
40:55have different profiles, but we Anytime
40:57we try to like just put people into
40:59discrete categories, it never works cuz
41:00people are complex and they have
41:01different Everyone's story is kind of
41:04unique. And so, it's hard to put people
41:05just like into buckets.
41:07Um
41:08and
41:10there are I think some general
41:11principles that I've learned
41:14and we've learned through Hinge Labs.
41:15And, you know, again, you had Logan here
41:17relatively recently. And if if people
41:19are interested, they should definitely
41:20go listen to her podcast because with
41:22you because it's like a master class in
41:24how to become successful in dating.
41:26Yeah.
41:27But, I would say like the more that you
41:29are willing to be
41:31honest and vulnerable and real, like the
41:34quicker you can find those connections
41:36and the higher quality connections that
41:37you're going to get.
41:40I think that's the kind of upshot and
41:41the way that we really try to
41:43design Hinge to help people maximize
41:46their success on that front.
41:48Why does that matter at a human level,
41:50being honest and vulnerable?
41:53Uh I think
41:55two reasons. One is that you get to an
41:59accurate assessment more quickly of
42:01someone, right? Like, if you're trying
42:02to be pretend to be someone you're not
42:04or you're just trying to be cool or get
42:05a lot of likes or whatever,
42:08people aren't seeing the real you. And
42:09they're going to eventually see the real
42:11you. So, the faster that you can just
42:13put like be clear about who you are and
42:16what you're looking for and what you
42:17want and what's not perfect about you,
42:20then
42:22I think the faster you're going to find
42:23someone who's like, "Yes, this is the
42:24type of person that I want to be with."
42:26And you're going to avoid all those
42:27people that were attracted to the kind
42:28of veneer that you'd put up, but then
42:30they get to know the real you and then
42:31that's not And then I'd say the second
42:33piece is that it gives people like
42:36hooks to grab onto. Like, there's just
42:37nothing to talk about with someone who's
42:40perfect and and invulnerable and
42:42invincible. Like, what do you like what
42:44do you have to say? Like, we connect
42:46over the the cracks of and the little
42:48imperfections. And that's how we connect
42:50and relate to one another. And so,
42:51you'll form a much better and deeper and
42:54quicker bond with someone when you open
42:56up like that versus try to
42:59impress.
43:00Okay, what about this then? So, if I
43:02wanted to be the world's worst dater,
43:05if I wanted to be the world's worst um
43:07most unsuccessful Hinge user or dating
43:09app user more generally,
43:11what would I have to do?
43:13Uh So, I've got your first point, which
43:15is about be really inauthentic. Pretend
43:16I'm perfect and use fake photos or you
43:19just portray myself in a way that's not
43:20authentic.
43:21of like filtered photos with you in
43:24sunglasses or hanging out with a lot of
43:25friends, one-word answers to your
43:27prompts, you know, just like everyone or
43:31no one or wait for likes to come to you.
43:33I think like that that's the kind of
43:35mentality they're trying to get people
43:36out of. We want to We want people to
43:37like fill out deeper Like, that's so
43:39much of our work is like helping people
43:41select better photos that show more of
43:42their personality, help people answer
43:44prompts,
43:46which are these short questions designed
43:48to get you into a conversation,
43:50and answer them thoughtfully uh to
43:54uh be really thoughtful with your likes
43:56because the more thoughtful you are with
43:57your likes, the better our algorithm
43:58gets cuz we actually understand who you
44:00like and who you don't like.
44:02So, don't just like
44:03you know. No, because then we can't we
44:05can't learn your taste, right? And we're
44:08not going to get closer and closer to
44:09the type of person that you like. Okay,
44:11interesting. And what about these um
44:13these serial daters? Cuz I've got some
44:16friends that are like those serial
44:17daters, literally 100 dates a year. And
44:20I'll sit with them and we'll chat and
44:21they'll tell me, "Oh, yeah, I've been on
44:22like three dates this week, etc." For
44:24those people, I'd love to be able to
44:25give offer them some advice. Thinking of
44:27one one of my friends in particular,
44:29who I know was is going to watch this.
44:31Yeah. I mean, I was one of those people,
44:33right? I mean, I was a person who um
44:36uh
44:38you know, constantly was I wouldn't
44:40necessarily just go on a whole lot of
44:41first dates, but I would go on a whole
44:42I'd had a whole lot of
44:44two- to six-week relationships. And um
44:49and then as soon as I would find
44:51something
44:53quote-unquote wrong or I wouldn't feel
44:55good in the relationship, then I was
44:56like, "Well, this doesn't work. Like,
44:58this is wrong." Cuz I think I had such a
45:02I such a fantasy about what a good
45:05relationship looked like. I like my
45:06model was totally broken. And I think
45:08for so many of us, we're like we're
45:10trying to fit
45:11like a model in our head
45:14with the real with the reality that
45:16we're trying to like match this reality
45:18to like some model in our head about
45:19what a good relationship is or should
45:21look like. And I think my model was like
45:24you know, it stays sexy and fun every
45:26single time we're together. Um we don't
45:29fight. There's never any You know,
45:31there's like I I think I just had this
45:32like very happily ever after moment in
45:35my mind. And
45:37so, I skipped over and passed over so
45:39much because it just didn't fit this
45:41like model I had in my head. And I think
45:42some of us have
45:44models in our head that are exceedingly
45:46narrow. They have to be like over 6 ft
45:49and they need to work in this type of
45:50job and they need to be like this. And
45:52so, you go out and you're just looking
45:54for some reason to say no because it
45:56doesn't fit your model.
45:58And I think the biggest thing is for us
46:00to
46:01um
46:02like change the model in our head that
46:05we're that like of like what we're
46:06trying to look for
46:08and like widen that aperture a bit and
46:11give people more of a chance and like
46:13see things through a bit more.
46:16People have to
46:18um people this high height thing you
46:20mentioned, the 6 ft thing, seems to be a
46:22lot of conversation because
46:24I think the vast majority of people
46:28the the vast majority of women, I
46:30imagine, would want someone that's more
46:32than 6 ft. Is that correct?
46:34Uh no, I don't I don't know if that's
46:36actually true. But, people like someone
46:38taller than them. Taller than them,
46:39okay.
46:40Yeah.
46:41Um
46:426 ft seems to
46:43just one example. I mean, I don't know
46:44about the height, but I think it's just
46:45the point is like we have very specific
46:48and narrow models. And I think a lot of
46:49people who end up in successful
46:51relationships say, Mhm.
46:53"This isn't uh you know, if I were
46:56making a shopping list and like you
46:57know, writing down all my like little
46:59features that I'm looking for in a
47:01partner, like this person didn't
47:02necessarily
47:04that like I would have I would have
47:06missed this person." There's a website,
47:07isn't there? I can't remember the name
47:09of it, but you go on there and you say
47:10what you're looking for in a partner and
47:11it shows you your statistical
47:13probability of finding that person.
47:14Okay. Yeah, I don't know about that, but
47:16yeah, I think if people saw that It's
47:18horrifying. Yeah, it'd be pretty
47:19horrifying like how you're cutting out
47:2198% of people based on your criteria.
47:25The salary, the height, the way um
47:28the race you put on there. And then it
47:30shows you it goes like you have a 0.0%
47:32chance of finding this person.
47:34right. Um and you obviously want them to
47:35be single as well as another criteria.
47:37Um which I find interesting. One of the
47:39things people say about dating apps and
47:41like dating app companies and founders
47:42and CEOs is they want people to stay
47:44single because then you've got more
47:46customers.
47:46Mhm. And surely, if every if you have
47:49this metric where people are becoming
47:51um
47:51they're getting married, you're losing
47:53customers.
47:54Yeah. So, our belief on that, which has
47:58always been um
48:00we we like our motto our our tagline is
48:02designed to be deleted. And that came
48:04from, by the way,
48:06we were working with a branding agency
48:09and
48:10they were like, "What's Hinge's
48:12stick? You know, like what makes you
48:14different? Like, you're Tinder, but
48:16what?" And I was like, "I don't There's
48:18no gimmick. Like, there's no like, 'Oh,
48:21we're Tinder, but like X or Tinder, but
48:23Y.'" Like, every single part of the app
48:26is like designed to be different and
48:29like designed to help get people out on
48:31great dates.
48:33And that's kind of where this like
48:34designed to be deleted, which by the way
48:35was like there's so much debate
48:36internally about that cuz it's so
48:38it sounds so technical like design like
48:40in your own tagline like designed to be
48:42like that and it's people won't
48:43understand it.
48:45But, we kind of went with it because
48:46it's the only thing that really
48:46represented what makes Hinge
48:49um
48:50really different.
48:51And what does that mean? And it means
48:53that do we get people out on great dates
48:55or not? And that's what's driven every
48:57design decision and why Hinge looks
48:59different than all the other apps is
49:00like that optimization function.
49:03And
49:05so,
49:06in terms of a business model,
49:08the belief is that like we will grow
49:09through word of mouth, which is the most
49:11effective and efficient and
49:12cost-effective way to grow
49:14if we just create more great dates and
49:16more relationships. And
49:18the thesis is like as long as there are
49:19single people in the world, which I'm
49:20pretty sure there are plenty of single
49:22people left in the world, that they'll
49:24want to use Hinge, which feels more like
49:26a utility that's truly effective versus
49:28like perhaps what something that feels
49:29like a little bit more like a game.
49:32Since the
49:33company started, have you seen any
49:35changes in the dating environment, the
49:37dating landscape, dating culture? Yeah.
49:40Yeah, Gen Z, for lack of a better term,
49:42has different dating patterns. I think
49:45in some sense, like when I started
49:47Hinge, people were There was a lot of
49:48stigma around dating apps because um
49:52uh people just didn't use them at all.
49:54Then I feel like everyone started to use
49:56them and it became sort of the default
49:58way to meet people. And I think this is
50:00why we've actually like Hinge's growth
50:02has accelerated so much even recently.
50:06Is that there actually is a desire to
50:08move away from the sort of like quick
50:10hit, superficial Swipe, swipe, swipe.
50:12Yeah, yeah, and moving to something
50:14that's
50:14People are willing to share more about
50:17themselves and be more like I think like
50:19Gen Z's generally
50:21willing to like, you know, it's like the
50:23Tik Tok instead of the Instagram kind of
50:25feel of
50:27being vulnerable, putting yourself out
50:29there. You don't have to look so
50:30polished and so perfect. And that's
50:31actually great for
50:34for
50:35uh dating cuz that's exactly the kind of
50:36ethos that we actually need for people
50:38to be successful.
50:40And Hinge, as I was reading, is got
50:42these sort of five first principles.
50:46What is the um current company mission
50:48statement?
50:49Well, so
50:51the we want to foster intimate
50:53connection to create a less lonely
50:54world. And
50:57a lot of social We'll call them like
50:59social networks. They started social
51:00networks.
51:02We're also I think had a similar
51:03mission. Like you wanted to get you
51:04connected to the people who matter most
51:06to you.
51:07And they've all kind of like
51:10like they all became social media
51:12companies instead because it turns out
51:13that like brands and influencers and
51:15outrageous people are just more
51:16interesting than your friends. And it's
51:19easier to get you to spend more time in
51:21app and more time looking at ads if we
51:24like show you much more sensational
51:25content than
51:27than like
51:28you know, real um
51:31like creating real moments of connection
51:32with the people who matter most to you.
51:34And that's what I wanted to drive home
51:36like really clearly in our mission is
51:38that
51:39like Hinge at its core, even if we were
51:41expanding new business lines or do
51:43something in the future, like we are a
51:45company about intimate connection, about
51:47one-to-one deep connections between
51:49people and we don't ever want to deviate
51:51from that as our core cuz it's really
51:54what the world needs right now.
51:57First principle two, radical trust. So
51:59you've got designed to be deleted.
52:01Number two is radical trust. Yeah. Which
52:03means? So radical trust is our
52:05commitment to And so these cultural
52:07principles that you're reading off came
52:08from this book um called How We Do
52:11Things. And so when I when we rebooted
52:14the company in 2015,
52:18beginning of 2016
52:20we um
52:22at that point I didn't think about
52:23company culture. Kind of thought oh, it
52:25was just like
52:26it's just we're a bunch of people in a
52:28room trying to solve problems. Like
52:29that's And we were only 30 people. So
52:31culture just kind of emerges naturally
52:33among that group of people. It really
52:34rotates around the founder. But I didn't
52:36think consciously about it.
52:39When we did that reboot, we we let go of
52:41half the company. We took the remaining
52:42half and we went and did an offsite and
52:45we did a a breakdown and a really had
52:47like some really honest at times tearful
52:50conversations about like what had gone
52:51wrong.
52:52What did we do right? What What didn't
52:54we do right? What do we wish we had done
52:56better?
52:57Um and a
52:59a lot of them were of course like
53:00product decisions. Like oh, we focused
53:02too much on the competition and copying
53:03the competition and not focusing enough
53:05on our customer.
53:07But a lot of it was like how we operated
53:09as a company.
53:10And coming out of that, we actually
53:12started a like open source Google Doc
53:17that listed our kind of what we believed
53:21and how we think sh- things should
53:22should get done around Hinge.
53:24And originally it was just like a long
53:26doc of just all kinds of principles. It
53:28was me just trying to like
53:29put my management algorithm
53:32like down and on piece of paper so that
53:34everyone was very clear about how I made
53:36decisions and how we should all make
53:37decisions and how we should prioritize
53:39and what we should do.
53:40So then eventually as Hinge got a little
53:41bit bigger and we started to you know,
53:43have more than 100 employees
53:45that model didn't make as much sense
53:46anymore and we put it in this book
53:48called How We Do Things, which was at
53:50that point just a list of
53:52all our lesson It's really about It's a
53:54story of our lessons learned. It's like
53:55we did it all the wrong ways
53:57and that led us to learn to do it the
53:59right way.
54:00And so that's where just to give the
54:02context on where these principles came
54:03from. So designed to be deleted was like
54:05we used to focus on the competition and
54:07focusing on like what features our
54:09competitors had.
54:10When we did the reboot, we just focused
54:12on
54:13you know, making our one metric
54:16getting people out on great dates and I
54:17like prohibited people from looking at
54:19the competition. I didn't want any of
54:21their apps on my phone. Like I just just
54:23focus on
54:24novel innovation in service of our
54:26customer.
54:27Radical trust was about
54:29a lot of the decision-making was like
54:31very top-down
54:33and um and I think people felt
54:35disempowered. They felt a lot of
54:37whiplash and radical trust was about how
54:40do you push decision-making down to the
54:41front lines?
54:43And how do you empower people with the
54:46information that they need? So have a
54:47lot of transparency from the top down
54:49about like where we are as a business,
54:51what our needs are, what our problems
54:52are so that people on the front lines
54:53can go solve it.
54:55Love the leap.
54:57Love the leap is this idea that small
54:59incremental optimizations can be can be
55:01great, but real uh
55:05the the things that matter require like
55:07a level of um a much bigger innovation
55:11leaps and we have to not be afraid of
55:13failure because when you make those much
55:14bigger innovation leaps, a lot of them
55:16like won't of course land or you have to
55:21I think even more importantly trudge
55:23through a whole lot of failure to
55:24finally get to success. I think there's
55:26a culture of like that comes from people
55:29especially who have worked in tech
55:30companies and much larger tech companies
55:31of like oh, you just test and iterate.
55:33Like you test this thing and then if it
55:35works, great. And then if it doesn't,
55:36then you just like move on and try the
55:37next thing. I think the difference
55:39between that and then the way that like
55:41often a founder and entrepreneur will
55:42think is like I believe in this thesis
55:44and I'm going to get there no matter
55:45what and if I had like
55:48I mean think about how many iterations
55:49of Hinge I had to eventually get to the
55:50successful Hinge. If I just been like
55:52oh, I'm thinking about building a dating
55:53app. I'll throw something out there and
55:54see if people use it.
55:57Oh gosh, they're not really using it. I
55:58guess a dating app's not a good idea.
55:59I'll go like build a
56:01you know, whatever uh a car hailing app.
56:05You have to like trudge through that. So
56:06that's Love the Leap is like you have to
56:08suffer through a lot of failure to make
56:10like the big innovation leaps.
56:12Do you see a variance in even your team
56:14members, but other people you work with,
56:16they're biased towards failure? They're
56:18at different failure appetites. Yeah,
56:20and it gets harder and harder as you get
56:22bigger and and bigger and you're
56:24fighting against like larger cultural
56:25inertia. Like and this is very human by
56:27the way to like not make mistakes and
56:29not um
56:31look
56:32bad. And that's why by the way this
56:34whole book is written as like here's all
56:35the mistakes that we made and how we did
56:37it all wrong just to give people the
56:38permission know like we're all works in
56:40progress. We're all trying to learn.
56:42Um so you are overcoming like a much
56:44larger cur- cultural inertia to get
56:46people to take risks and and make
56:48mistakes. How do you do that?
56:50Uh you exhibit failure from the top.
56:54Like you admit I think when you've when
56:56like
56:57when you've made mistakes like when I've
56:59made mistakes or even talking about
57:02you know, my development plan or things
57:03that I'm working on. I just think it is
57:05like you almost all of these cultural
57:07attributes have to be modeled from the
57:09very top.
57:11Super interesting. Cuz most people are
57:12just incentivized to just do their job.
57:14So when you bring along a a new idea or
57:16a new innovation
57:18you know, incentive structures mean oh,
57:20listen, I'm not getting paid to take
57:21that [ __ ] risk and then maybe be made
57:23to look stupid. Yeah. So I'm not doing
57:25that. Yeah, I think that's right. And
57:27that's why I think we're and we're
57:29continuing to evolve these principles
57:30and and and refine them. In fact, we're
57:33going through a process right now. It's
57:34kind of ironic cuz we're we're walking
57:35through these and I'm about to release a
57:37new version of these to the company and
57:39there has been a bit of a refinement and
57:41we're actually kind of changing this one
57:43and combining it with the first one to
57:44call it Love the Problem because so much
57:45of about what we're really trying to get
57:47across through this is that you have to
57:49go like really deep and develop a deep
57:51thesis on a problem and that's what you
57:53do I think at this stage of a company.
57:54You don't take like wild leaps based on
57:56the intuition of a founder anymore.
57:58You like do deep research on a problem.
58:00You get conviction around it and then
58:02you're not afraid to
58:04like fail again and again trying to
58:06solve that problem because you are
58:07convinced that it's a real problem and
58:08you understand a lot about it and you're
58:09making a very informed decision You're
58:11taking a very thoughtful approach to
58:12solving it.
58:14Number four was and it currently is in
58:16my iPad here, guided by principles. And
58:18that one's definitely staying and that's
58:19one of the biggest um
58:22uh
58:24my own personal journey and I would say
58:26like this journey and it just it it's
58:28sort of what I talked about when I
58:30talked about how this got created in the
58:31first place is that
58:33if you keep making the same mistakes
58:34over and over again and you're not
58:35having an honest self-assessment about
58:37where you are and how things are
58:38working, you won't get better. And so
58:40both of my own personal journey and this
58:42has happened through
58:44you know, recovery through alcohol and
58:45addiction and getting better and better
58:47as an entrepreneur is like I was always
58:49self-reflecting and thinking about like
58:51okay, like seeking feedback. Like what
58:53didn't go well there? What did go well
58:54there? How can I do that better next
58:55time?
58:57And it became like I said, too arduous
58:59for me to even to track all these things
59:00in my mind. So I started putting them in
59:02that Google Doc so that everyone at the
59:04company could hold me accountable to
59:06this like management algorithm I was
59:07developing.
59:08And what I wanted us is to do as a
59:11company is always make decisions based
59:13on principles. Like what's the
59:15underlying reason? Like if I'm making a
59:16decision, no one should ever think well,
59:17that's just cuz Justin likes it that way
59:19or that's just because
59:21some other leader at the company, that's
59:23just what they want. So let's just do it
59:24their way. We want people to think like
59:25to understand
59:27like how am I making these decisions?
59:29What's underneath that? What principles
59:30do I believe in that made me to choose
59:32this over that? Because if you make that
59:35really explicit and clear, then you gain
59:37trust, people understand like why you're
59:40making the decisions, and two, they can
59:41start making decisions on their own
59:42without you needing to be in the room,
59:44and start developing their own
59:45principles
59:46for how they make decisions.
59:48And so so many of our meetings start off
59:49with like, well, here are the principles
59:50that we sort of aligned on as we started
59:53to make, you know, think about this body
59:55of work. And it just
59:57aligns everyone on the
59:59um
1:00:00What's the What are What are What was
1:00:01the like the core set of assumptions and
1:00:03beliefs and values that we have before
1:00:05we get into the details of the work. And
1:00:07that kind of counteracts the whole CEO
1:00:10because I said so,
1:00:11you know, vibe, which might get, I
1:00:13guess, um might get compliance, but it
1:00:15probably won't deliver upon whatever
1:00:18someone calls leadership. Yeah, it's not
1:00:20scalable. And maybe some CEOs always
1:00:22know the right thing to do, but I don't
1:00:23always know the right thing to do. I I
1:00:25think my job, once we got past 20 or 30
1:00:28people, which by the way, I didn't know
1:00:29the right thing to do even when we were
1:00:30that small, but
1:00:32I thought I did. Um but as we got much
1:00:35bigger, like I can't be close enough to
1:00:37the
1:00:38to the information to like make really
1:00:40great decisions. And so my job primarily
1:00:42is is building and fostering the culture
1:00:44that makes good decisions.
1:00:47I've been thinking a lot about company
1:00:48culture, and I threw this at Brian
1:00:49Chesky when he was here. This idea of
1:00:50how you create company culture. Like how
1:00:52do you decide?
1:00:53I think some people think, especially
1:00:55post-pandemic, which caused all of these
1:00:57companies and businesses to start
1:00:58thinking about what their company
1:01:00culture was way.
1:01:02You'd see CEOs and managers
1:01:06almost like brainstorming a
1:01:08principle-less culture. And it was more
1:01:10like how What days do you want people to
1:01:12come in? Mondays and Wednesdays? Should
1:01:14we say Tuesdays two days a week, one day
1:01:15a week? Should we, you know, um
1:01:18And that just doesn't feel right. It
1:01:19doesn't feel like it's based on
1:01:20anything. So I said to Brian, I said,
1:01:22one of the things I'm thinking about is
1:01:23maybe culture is
1:01:25already there, and you just kind of have
1:01:26to reverse engineer it from the problem
1:01:28you're trying to solve in the world.
1:01:29Which means, for example, if we want to
1:01:32be the best dating app in the world,
1:01:33then there's a set of behaviors we're
1:01:35going to have to exhibit to get there,
1:01:36which is going to require a set of
1:01:37values. And then with those values,
1:01:39we're going to use those values to
1:01:40create systems, processes, and hire the
1:01:43people that we need. And so you can
1:01:44almost reverse engineer your mission as
1:01:46a company
1:01:48um backwards to figure out what your
1:01:49culture is.
1:01:52You said something about like you're
1:01:53just describing the culture that already
1:01:54exists. And I think that's kind of true,
1:01:57especially if you do it early enough
1:01:58where it's not out of control yet. Um
1:02:00when it's like relatively close around
1:02:03the founder, you've only got like 30 or
1:02:0440 or 50 people, then you definitely
1:02:06have some sort of culture. And at that
1:02:09point though, I think you want to start
1:02:10defining
1:02:12defining it so that everyone's clear on
1:02:14what it is, cuz it will start you'll
1:02:16start losing as it starts expanding and
1:02:18people start It's a game of telephone,
1:02:19right? And it will like it will get lost
1:02:21over time. So you want to get really
1:02:22clear on like what it is.
1:02:24I think it's the the best of what is as
1:02:26well, right? Cuz I think you're you're
1:02:28trying to like
1:02:30articulate when we're at our best, this
1:02:33is how we're acting.
1:02:35And when we're at our worst, this is how
1:02:37we're acting. Cuz both are always
1:02:38happening within a company, like and you
1:02:40don't want to
1:02:41you want to constantly prune away the
1:02:43stuff that's not
1:02:45that's sort of not great, and start
1:02:47having more on people replicate what is
1:02:49great. So it's that It's more like a
1:02:50pruning process, and not just like a
1:02:52here's our culture, like describe it and
1:02:55and put it out the door. But you On the
1:02:56other hand, you can't just like
1:02:58throw it up on a wall and invent it from
1:03:00scratch. Like once an organization is
1:03:02big, you can't just say like, our
1:03:03culture suddenly is going to be X, Y,
1:03:05and Z. It'll be so inauthentic to what's
1:03:06actually going on on the ground that no
1:03:09one would ever follow it. I almost think
1:03:11about like parenting in a way. Like you
1:03:12can tell a kid a rule or tell a kid like
1:03:16a but you always have to be watching and
1:03:18like giving those little guidances like
1:03:20here and there. You always have to be
1:03:22giving those little nudges when you see
1:03:25when you see people acting with in
1:03:27accordance with the culture and praising
1:03:28it or not in accordance with the culture
1:03:30and giving them constructive feedback.
1:03:33Cuz it's such It's this living,
1:03:34breathing thing. Like defining it is
1:03:36just like one one step, but a very
1:03:37important step. And as the company grows
1:03:40and scales,
1:03:42I was thinking about this idea of um
1:03:44the best of what is.
1:03:47Is it possible that the best of what is
1:03:49when there's 10 of you, and you're
1:03:51potentially sleeping under a table like
1:03:52the stereotype goes,
1:03:54is not going to be the right culture for
1:03:56when there is like
1:03:58200 of you?
1:03:59Yeah, totally. And you know, the the
1:04:01book you're reading from right now is
1:04:02when we were, you know, 50 to 100
1:04:03people. And
1:04:06and now we're 300 and something people,
1:04:08and and we're evolving them, and we're
1:04:10actually changing some of them because
1:04:12I've learned things over time that like
1:04:14no longer work at a company this big.
1:04:17I'll give you an example.
1:04:19One is that idea of radical trust, which
1:04:21we just talked about, which actually
1:04:22kind of pained me to talk about because
1:04:25that's not I've learned that's like not
1:04:27right for a company this big anymore.
1:04:30You want to push decision-making down
1:04:32somewhat, but if you do it too much,
1:04:34especially in a larger organization, you
1:04:36start getting like a lot of silos and
1:04:37everyone just doing micro-optimizations.
1:04:39And there's
1:04:41there's you actually want to be
1:04:43there needs to be much more of a
1:04:44conversation. And actually watch the the
1:04:47the Brian interview when he talks about
1:04:48pulling decision-making in. And that
1:04:50actually is, I think, more in line with
1:04:53where you have to be if you want to stay
1:04:55innovative and still think like a
1:04:57startup even at a big scale. So there's
1:04:59things that I took for granted, because
1:05:01when we were 100 people,
1:05:03that was happening already, but I didn't
1:05:05see it because I just had I knew
1:05:07everyone's name. We were all in the same
1:05:09room, and so there was a lot of
1:05:10CEO and executive team influence on the
1:05:13team that that was kind of hidden cuz it
1:05:14just happened naturally. So we thought
1:05:17we were pushing decision-making down.
1:05:19However, I was I was in conversation
1:05:21with junior developers and junior
1:05:22engineers and junior designers all the
1:05:24time giving them like little nuggets of
1:05:26feed like I was like I was involved,
1:05:28just not officially.
1:05:30And I think as we got much bigger, we
1:05:31realized like, oh gosh, you can't just
1:05:32like push decision-making down and like
1:05:34hope for the best. You have to like pull
1:05:36it people in and coordinate. And there
1:05:38are people at the top that have a view
1:05:40across what's going on across the whole
1:05:41company that need to actually be making
1:05:44decisions. We can't just like push it
1:05:45down.
1:05:46Just to be super clear on that for
1:05:48someone who is, you know, in their first
1:05:50month of business, um pulling
1:05:52decision-making in in that regard is
1:05:55empowering people to make decisions, but
1:05:57those decisions coming again through the
1:05:59central lens of the company's mission.
1:06:01When you're really small, it's it's it's
1:06:03happening already, right? If you're If
1:06:05you're a team of 10 people or 12 people,
1:06:07like you're all aware of what each other
1:06:08are doing, you're talking, and you're
1:06:09being conscious about if I'm the
1:06:11marketing person and the and the product
1:06:13person over here working on this product
1:06:14feature, I I'll think like, oh, I should
1:06:16probably market that product feature.
1:06:17Like I There's just this like
1:06:19understanding of what's going on. So you
1:06:21are making You're like set kind of a
1:06:22hive mind.
1:06:24You just take that for granted. And as
1:06:26you get much bigger,
1:06:27you can either
1:06:29make you know, I think the extremes are
1:06:32you you just have like a founder who
1:06:33makes all the decisions. Everything just
1:06:35gets brought into them.
1:06:36Which I think makes a lot of people feel
1:06:38disempowered. And the other hand, you
1:06:40push decision-making completely down,
1:06:42and you say, you all just handle it.
1:06:43I'll just articulate the high-level
1:06:44vision and strategy, and you But then
1:06:46you usually don't make great sort of
1:06:50uh interdisciplinary
1:06:53or major cohesive
1:06:54leaps that are that feel cohesive.
1:06:56Everything starts like
1:06:58So it's this balance of
1:07:00having just like a constant
1:07:02conversation, opportunity for feedback.
1:07:03I still Ultimately, the decision-makers
1:07:05are the people who are close to the
1:07:06work. However, we are like pulling it in
1:07:10and articulating strategy and and
1:07:11generating conversation. I'm in the room
1:07:13with more junior people
1:07:16a lot now than I Frankly, more now than
1:07:18I used to be, so that we can continually
1:07:21um
1:07:22bring people along on what the strategy
1:07:24is, what are the big leaps we're making,
1:07:26and what are all the little ways that we
1:07:27keep this cohesive.
1:07:30It's interesting because in the age of
1:07:31the internet, um and the age of dating
1:07:33apps and all these other tools and
1:07:34technologies,
1:07:36even though we have better internet
1:07:37connections, the stats continue to show
1:07:39that we're getting lonelier and
1:07:40lonelier. Yeah. Which is a word you used
1:07:43central to your mission, the word
1:07:44loneliness.
1:07:4552% of Americans report to feeling
1:07:47lonely, and 57% of Americans report to
1:07:50eating their meals alone, etc. So
1:07:52something's clearly failing, isn't it?
1:07:54Something's clearly not working in this
1:07:56pursuit of connection and social
1:07:57connection and social media, etc. Yeah,
1:07:59and I think So loneliness has been a
1:08:01problem that I think has been creeping
1:08:03up on us for a while, but
1:08:05it's really started to accelerate in the
1:08:07last few years.
1:08:08And if you look at
1:08:11you know, I've seen charts that show
1:08:12like
1:08:13time spent together in real life
1:08:16with friends and time spent consuming
1:08:18media consuming like digital media on
1:08:21apps. And it's like over the last like
1:08:2320 years, the one is almost completely
1:08:27displaced the other. We used to spend
1:08:29hours a day with friends
1:08:32in real life on average,
1:08:34um
1:08:35and make like having genuine
1:08:38connections, seeing and being seen.
1:08:41And now, people are virtually almost
1:08:44always consuming some form of digital
1:08:46media or they're working. So even when
1:08:49you're at the gym, you're probably like
1:08:51listening to, you know, a uh like
1:08:54whatever, like a music or a podcast, or
1:08:57you are
1:08:57with that, Justin.
1:09:00Nothing wrong with that. Listen, that
1:09:00get rid of my cuz we're not designed to
1:09:02be deleted every day.
1:09:03you're because because you're conscious
1:09:04I mean, so in I'm not saying all media
1:09:07consumption is bad. I'm saying that like
1:09:09when you are But when you're pulled in
1:09:11all day and it's completely displaced,
1:09:13like you're no longer talking with
1:09:14friends because you're just like
1:09:15doomscrolling on social media platform
1:09:18X, Y, or Z,
1:09:20you've you've really we've really lost
1:09:22something, and I think it's that, I
1:09:24think, more than anything has led to
1:09:25this like
1:09:27crisis level acceleration in in
1:09:29loneliness. I'm so interested in the
1:09:32disparity between men and women in
1:09:35dating. We've had lots of conversations
1:09:37over the years on this podcast about
1:09:38this, but
1:09:39even in your app, you see a big
1:09:41disparity between like the bottom 50% of
1:09:44men or the bottom group of men on dating
1:09:46apps and like the top one or two percent
1:09:48of men on dating apps.
1:09:50I'm going to be completely honest.
1:09:52Much of the reason why I never used
1:09:53dating apps is I had no success. Mhm. I
1:09:55would get like no good matches. I was a
1:09:5818, 19, 20-year-old kid that had
1:10:01nothing, was super scruffy, had no
1:10:03money. I had no chance on these apps.
1:10:06And I had this best friend called Logan
1:10:08Mhm. who looks like he comes out of like
1:10:09a Calvin Klein ad. We were both broke.
1:10:12Yeah, yeah. But he
1:10:13could go on those apps and he would he
1:10:16would clean up. And I look over at him
1:10:18and I think, "Jesus Christ, like what's
1:10:19left for me?" I genuinely believe, and
1:10:21people might find this quite shocking,
1:10:23in my life, I've been on five dates.
1:10:25Mhm. In my entire life.
1:10:27My strategy is I go all in. So, the
1:10:29minute my current girlfriend said she
1:10:31wanted to go on a date with me, I pulled
1:10:33up an Excel document and it was a
1:10:34three-day
1:10:36like itinerary. I just
1:10:38I just went all in. I've only been on
1:10:40five dates in my life. But I but I
1:10:42emphasize with men that really struggle
1:10:44with dating apps and have become
1:10:45disillusioned. In fact, when we had, I
1:10:48think it was Whitney Wolfe Herd on from
1:10:49Bumble,
1:10:50um
1:10:52I was really surprised because
1:10:54those men showed up in the comment
1:10:55section Mhm. and they felt like they've
1:10:58been forgotten about.
1:11:01So, uh it's a big I mean, it's a big
1:11:03focus for us and we I mean, part of this
1:11:07is like larger cultural forces that I
1:11:09think are at work, but um part of it are
1:11:11things that we can really address, I
1:11:12think, within dating apps. And
1:11:15some people are just
1:11:17good at dating apps and some people, I
1:11:21think, are quite datable, but they're
1:11:22just not good at dating apps. And I
1:11:24think I think the question is like how
1:11:26do we help
1:11:27really make it a much more focused
1:11:30quality over quantity experience. How do
1:11:32we help the people that are struggling?
1:11:34And this is where I actually think a lot
1:11:35of the promise of of what's being
1:11:37unlocked through AI and generative AI is
1:11:40going to like really help us coach
1:11:43people who aren't finding success and
1:11:45help them find better success and create
1:11:47matches that are much more like quality
1:11:50over quantity. I mean, that when we
1:11:52rebooted Hinge, we wanted to make it
1:11:54more quality over quantity. And
1:11:56we went from a world where people used
1:11:57to like it used to take a thousand
1:11:59swipes in order to get on a date, and
1:12:01then the new Hinge it took about 50
1:12:03likes.
1:12:04So, we made a big leap back then in
1:12:06terms of helping people get on on good
1:12:08dates.
1:12:10I think now with AI, I think there's
1:12:12like a whole other leap of focus in
1:12:14terms of learning about you, learning
1:12:16about who's out there, helping match
1:12:18people up in a in like a really nice
1:12:20one-to-one way, and you don't feel like
1:12:21you're in this like
1:12:23very crowded room where you know, some
1:12:25every all the attractions, you know, are
1:12:27all the attention's going to just a
1:12:28certain group of people. And so, I think
1:12:31there is a like
1:12:33I think the future's getting brighter
1:12:34for us to be able to solve that problem.
1:12:36What are the what is that disparity? I
1:12:37read, and this might not be accurate, um
1:12:392021 study by Hinge found that the top
1:12:421% of men on the app receive more than
1:12:4416% of all of the likes, while the top
1:12:471% of women receive just over 11%. This
1:12:50indicates a significant disparity in the
1:12:51level of attention men and women receive
1:12:53on dating apps. And similar things
1:12:55from Bumble, um a 2022 study by Bumble
1:12:58found that men send an average of 13
1:13:00messages per day on the app, while women
1:13:01only send roughly three messages per
1:13:03day. This suggests that men are putting
1:13:06in significantly more effort to initiate
1:13:07conversations on dating apps. And then
1:13:09more broadly from that, we've had people
1:13:11on this podcast like
1:13:12Scott Galloway that talks about how the
1:13:14very
1:13:15top 10 10% or the top group of men
1:13:18having all the sex and basically there's
1:13:21this kind of like disillusion,
1:13:22disenfranchised group at the bottom of
1:13:23men who are having no sex and are aren't
1:13:26finding relationships, are not having
1:13:28intimate connection. And it's that group
1:13:30of men that he says are the most
1:13:31dangerous of all cuz they're like
1:13:33lonely, broke, disillusioned young men.
1:13:35Mhm. We still have work to do to there's
1:13:37like a major opportunity to help those
1:13:39people that are struggling to find their
1:13:40person by helping them
1:13:43zero in better on
1:13:45the person that they like and and the
1:13:47person who will like them back, helping
1:13:48them put their best foot forward and
1:13:51make sure that they are not shooting
1:13:53themselves in the foot by like choosing
1:13:54the wrong photos or like not putting
1:13:56getting one-word answers on prompts or
1:13:58any of those types of things.
1:14:00So, that I think is the
1:14:02the key is
1:14:04like
1:14:05so like a a big effort at at Hinge right
1:14:08now internally, we're calling it flatten
1:14:09the power curve, but it's it's it's
1:14:10essentially that. It's like how do you
1:14:12help the people who aren't getting to
1:14:13success? How do you level them up to get
1:14:16to success? And then how do you focus
1:14:18the people so that
1:14:20um there's not that kind of like power
1:14:22curve behavior on in society and on
1:14:25dating apps. We think we can actually
1:14:26correct what's going on and more largely
1:14:29in society through dating apps.
1:14:32And so I'm clear, we do that by coaching
1:14:35people to be better at dating apps,
1:14:37basically like picking better pictures,
1:14:39understanding better ways to reply. We
1:14:41do that by
1:14:43helping them match with people that are
1:14:44more suitable to them and that are more
1:14:46likely to Yeah, and I think giving like
1:14:48better, more warm introductions so that
1:14:51people have a people have more focus and
1:14:53more of a chance. And you also limit
1:14:55like what's going on in terms of um
1:14:58people sending too many likes or
1:14:59matching too much and getting them to
1:15:01focus on the people that they actually
1:15:02really want so that you don't
1:15:04over-engage the rest of the user base.
1:15:06Is there a challenge in getting people
1:15:07to go from the app to the real world?
1:15:09Cuz I would I would always be super
1:15:10scared of that.
1:15:11Yeah, I mean, there's uh
1:15:13that's the whole point of our app and
1:15:16that's very much what we're like pushing
1:15:17people towards.
1:15:19Um
1:15:20but yeah, I mean, the whole the whole
1:15:22funnel is a challenge in terms of
1:15:23getting, you know, getting people to
1:15:24sign up, getting people to like create
1:15:25profiles, getting people to like move
1:15:28from a match to conversation and
1:15:30conversation to date. You mentioned AI,
1:15:33big topic of conversation this year, of
1:15:35course. Um generative AI and how that
1:15:37might be able to help people find their
1:15:39person. I mean, the conversation around
1:15:42AI and relationships and dating has
1:15:43always been quite pessimistic because
1:15:45people are thinking about sex robots and
1:15:46stuff.
1:15:47Yeah.
1:15:52Yeah, that's not the that's certainly
1:15:54not going to be what Hinge is working
1:15:55on.
1:15:56How how can you use AI to You mentioned
1:15:59it briefly there, but I want to make
1:16:00sure I'm clear.
1:16:02How specifically?
1:16:05You can give me feedback. Kind of like
1:16:07Whoop does. They have that they've
1:16:08released their AI feature.
1:16:10one level of it is like just thinking
1:16:12like how do you make the the dating app
1:16:14experience better? How do you help
1:16:16people build better profiles? How do you
1:16:18help coach people through the
1:16:19conversation process and help them move
1:16:21them off to a date? So, you can
1:16:22certainly
1:16:23like coach people, be like, "Hey, you
1:16:25should choose these types of photos or
1:16:26whatever." Like all that is possible
1:16:28with AI.
1:16:29What I think like the bigger leap though
1:16:31is to move much closer to what feels
1:16:33like a matchmaker model. And that I
1:16:34think starts to solve some of the
1:16:35problems that that what you were just
1:16:38talking about where
1:16:39it's less like you're just sitting there
1:16:41evaluating and that that whole idea of
1:16:43like creating a profile, matching,
1:16:46trying to chat, trying to move it off to
1:16:49a date. Like when you work with a
1:16:50matchmaker, you just have an interview
1:16:52and they learn who you are. They go out
1:16:53and interview other people and they say,
1:16:55"Hey, we think you all should meet.
1:16:57We'll set up the date. And then after
1:16:58the date, I'm going to follow up to see
1:16:59how it went and provide some feedback."
1:17:01Interesting.
1:17:02we can get closer and closer to that
1:17:04model where we're like going almost
1:17:06straight to setting up dates that are
1:17:09with a much higher likelihood of success
1:17:11than sort of leaving it on the user to
1:17:13create a personal advertisement for
1:17:14themself and, you know, do all the work
1:17:17to sort of
1:17:19find through people that are going to
1:17:20like them, that are going to that will
1:17:22like them back, etc.
1:17:25The word company, by definition,
1:17:27means group of people. Um you talk about
1:17:30hiring in your principles quite often
1:17:33and just generally
1:17:34in this book. Principle number five here
1:17:36is people with heart. Hire people who
1:17:38embody the core values.
1:17:40I I I've come to learn, longer I've been
1:17:41in business, that hiring is really
1:17:43central to everything. Um culture being
1:17:45the thing that binds those group of
1:17:46people together, but
1:17:48what have you learned about hiring and
1:17:49what would your message be to maybe your
1:17:51younger self that is 2012, when you were
1:17:54relaunching the new Hinge? What would
1:17:55you say to that guy that you know now
1:17:56about hiring?
1:17:58We made a whole lot of hiring mistakes
1:17:59in the beginning and um and it was still
1:18:02it we sort of did it like we did the
1:18:03principles, which is we looked at,
1:18:05"Okay, who are the people who have
1:18:06succeeded at Hinge? What are their
1:18:08attributes? Who are the people who have
1:18:09not succeeded at Hinge and like what are
1:18:10their attributes?" And then we started
1:18:12to just create attributes for like
1:18:16who like who succeeds and who doesn't.
1:18:18And then we started to design an
1:18:19interview, which we call the culture
1:18:20interview, which still everyone goes
1:18:21through at Hinge,
1:18:22which is essentially like assesses for
1:18:24those attributes.
1:18:26And
1:18:27um
1:18:28that led to a dramatic increase in
1:18:30success, making sure that we, you know,
1:18:32when people came, they didn't quit or
1:18:35weren't fired within their first year.
1:18:37And um now we have extraordinarily low
1:18:40attrition at Hinge, especially voluntary
1:18:42attrition.
1:18:43Um and I think it's because we focus so
1:18:45much on making sure we get people in who
1:18:47have those values. And then once you
1:18:48have people in who have those values and
1:18:50they're all around other people who have
1:18:51those values,
1:18:52it's like a place they want to stay
1:18:54because it feels
1:18:55it they feel so aligned with the people
1:18:58that they work with. And if there was if
1:19:00you had to get rid of every value but
1:19:01keep one, when it comes to hiring a
1:19:03Hinge person, which one would you keep?
1:19:06Our three core values are authenticity,
1:19:08and courage, and empathy. That's like
1:19:10and it and they are a bit of a trifecta
1:19:11because one without another
1:19:14is like is very imbalanced, I think. So,
1:19:17um you want people to be authentic.
1:19:19You don't want them to like be so
1:19:21authentic and so blunt that they like
1:19:23are rude and mean to people, right?
1:19:25There's that the level of empathy.
1:19:27But I think like those two values
1:19:28especially that like authenticity,
1:19:30showing up, being who you are, saying
1:19:32what's on your mind,
1:19:34and that level of empathy is ultimately
1:19:36what builds trust. And I think trust
1:19:38like within an organization is really
1:19:40the lifeblood of the organization. And
1:19:42those two values I think build more
1:19:46trust than anything else. They're like
1:19:48the two ingredients of a great
1:19:49relationship.
1:19:5110 years from now we sit here and we
1:19:52have another conversation and we talk
1:19:54about what Hinge is,
1:19:55the impact it's had on the world.
1:19:58What do you tell me?
1:20:00I think the
1:20:02the
1:20:03next-level impact that we can have
1:20:07in terms of shaping dating culture and
1:20:09coaching and teaching people to become
1:20:12not just better daters, but like we
1:20:13become it's
1:20:15better better people, really. And
1:20:17coaching people how to like have more
1:20:19harmonious relationships, form better
1:20:21relationships. Like I think there's so
1:20:23much opportunity
1:20:24to guide people on that process.
1:20:27And
1:20:29and so the idea that 10 years from now
1:20:30we like really shaped
1:20:33dating culture
1:20:35in a way that just made everyone more
1:20:36successful. That I think is like the
1:20:38vision for where where we're headed.
1:20:42As you know, Whoop are sponsors of this
1:20:44podcast and I'm an investor in the
1:20:46company. And last month I had the chance
1:20:47to sit down with Kristen Holmes. She's
1:20:49the VP of performance at Whoop and I
1:20:50learned so much from our conversation
1:20:52about circadian rhythms and things like
1:20:54sleep. Study show that for every 45
1:20:56minutes of sleep debt that you accrue,
1:20:58that your decision-making ability will
1:21:00drop by up to 10%. And when you're
1:21:03chronically underslept, you'll only be a
1:21:05fraction of the person, the fraction of
1:21:07the boss, partner, friend, manager that
1:21:09you can be. That's why I'm obsessed with
1:21:12Whoop, which not just tracks, but
1:21:13coaches you on how to get better at
1:21:15sleep so you can bring your best to
1:21:17everything that you choose to do. If
1:21:19you're not convinced, you can try Whoop
1:21:21for 30 days completely risk-free with
1:21:24zero commitment just by going to
1:21:26join.whoop.com/ceo.
1:21:32That's join.whoop.com/ceo.
1:21:34And let me know how you get on. If you
1:21:36don't like it, there's no commitment.
1:21:38Join.whoop.com/ceo.
1:21:42We have a closing tradition on this
1:21:43podcast where the last guest leaves a
1:21:45question for the next guest not knowing
1:21:46who they're going to leave it for.
1:21:48And the question that's been left for
1:21:49you is
1:21:52if you could go back in time and give
1:21:54one piece of advice
1:21:57to your 10-year-old self,
1:22:00what would it be?
1:22:05Ah.
1:22:07Well, what comes to mind if I could have
1:22:08impressed on myself that like
1:22:12uh
1:22:15you are
1:22:17I mean impressed on myself that idea of
1:22:19intrinsic worth. If I could have like
1:22:21let myself know that I was worthy no
1:22:23matter what, regardless of like who
1:22:25dumped me or who ostracized me.
1:22:29Um
1:22:30that's what I wish. In some sense I wish
1:22:32I could have understood and then on the
1:22:34other sense it's like shaped my entire
1:22:35life and is the reason that I have Hinge
1:22:37and the reason that I have Kate.
1:22:40So I think maybe the advice I would give
1:22:42is just buckle up.
1:22:44Because it's going to be a really wild
1:22:45ride and it it uh
1:22:48it um
1:22:51you know, does have a way of working out
1:22:53in the end. Thank you so much.
1:22:55Thank you. Thank you so much. It's a
1:22:56pleasure.
1:22:56You've built a really incredible company
1:22:58and you've built a different business.
1:23:00And that's that's so evident in the
1:23:03product that is Hinge. In a market where
1:23:04there's a lot of people doing the same
1:23:06obvious thing, going for the low-hanging
1:23:08fruit. It was so clear to me from a very
1:23:11long distance that at some point someone
1:23:13was being guided by first principles.
1:23:15Mhm. Because you went an an obvious
1:23:18route which has turned in your favor as
1:23:21society has evolved and we've got sick
1:23:22of surface-level things and people are
1:23:24dissatisfied with not actually
1:23:28the promise of these apps not being
1:23:30realized which was you told me you were
1:23:32going to help me find love. Yeah. And
1:23:33I'm still using and swiping on this app
1:23:35three or four years later and feeling
1:23:37despair, maybe even feeling worse than I
1:23:38did when I started. But Hinge took a
1:23:40different route and when you describe
1:23:41Hinge to someone, you say
1:23:43it's an app that cares more about
1:23:45meaning, that cares more about fostering
1:23:46deep connections, and that as you say in
1:23:48your own words, slows things down a
1:23:50little bit so you can take the time to
1:23:51find a much more um real, authentic,
1:23:56potentially successful bond than
1:23:59the rest of the dating market. And
1:24:01that's why Hinge has always been I think
1:24:03has always represented the future.
1:24:04Because at the end of the day people are
1:24:06coming on these apps to find love. And
1:24:08it's clear to me, this whole designed to
1:24:09be deleted thing, that and from
1:24:11everybody that I've met at Hinge, that
1:24:12that is a promise you are genuinely
1:24:14trying to deliver upon.
1:24:16Yeah, I mean it's totally true. And that
1:24:18idea of first principles is exactly
1:24:19right. I think you have to just like
1:24:21rethink from the ground up like how
1:24:23would I build this and stop thinking
1:24:24like oh, other apps do this, we'll do
1:24:25this with this twist. And that I think
1:24:28is what
1:24:29initially
1:24:31you don't find success through that path
1:24:32cuz everyone's like well, this is
1:24:33different, this is weird. There's no
1:24:34blueprint.
1:24:35Right. And um but over time that like
1:24:38the the compound interest that comes
1:24:40from actually building an effective
1:24:41product that grows through word of mouth
1:24:43is
1:24:44is you just And now today Hinge is, you
1:24:47know, the fastest-growing major dating
1:24:49app, we're the number one app in the UK
1:24:50and Australia and and
1:24:53quickly growing in in Europe to become
1:24:54like a top dating app in in Europe. So
1:24:57it's
1:24:58it pays off eventually. You have to be
1:25:00very patient. I see that in Great Ormond
1:25:02Street, you know, I see it sort in the
1:25:03Whoop founder. These unobvious decisions
1:25:05that they made because they're so guided
1:25:07by their first principles, usually based
1:25:09on the founder's personal experience.
1:25:10And that's what I see in Hinge. So thank
1:25:12you for creating an app that I consider
1:25:13to be a really great one and a really
1:25:15important one. And being someone who's
1:25:16driven to end loneliness ultimately and
1:25:18bring people together cuz it's never
1:25:20been more important than it is now.
1:25:21Thank you, Justin. Thank you.
1:25:25Quick one from one of our sponsors. A
1:25:27lot of you have asked me the question
1:25:28about Huel over the years about where
1:25:31Huel fits into your life. Is it the most
1:25:34healthy choice one can make when they're
1:25:35thinking about what their nutrition. And
1:25:37here's what I would say to all of those
1:25:39people. I think in an ideal world, I
1:25:41would be able to sit down and cook and
1:25:43prepare all of my meals. I think that
1:25:45would be my ideal option. But it because
1:25:48of the nature of my life, because I'm
1:25:49moving around often, what used to happen
1:25:51before Huel was I'd end up making bad
1:25:55choices. I'd end up snacking, I'd have
1:25:57junk food options on the go because I
1:25:59was busy and my nutrition would come
1:26:01second to whatever my professional
1:26:02priority was. What Huel allows you to do
1:26:05is to have a healthier option on the go
1:26:07that is convenient, that contains a lot
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1:26:11complete diet. And that's exactly where
1:26:13it fits in my life. They've now expanded
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1:26:17out the Huel RTD, I highly recommend you
1:26:19do. Go to your local Tesco, Boots, or
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1:26:23and try one there.
1:26:26Do you need a podcast to listen to next?
1:26:28We've discovered that people who liked
1:26:30this episode also tend to absolutely
1:26:32love another recent episode we've done.
1:26:34So I've linked that episode in the
1:26:36description below. I know you'll enjoy
1:26:38it.

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