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Heather Mac Donald And Glenn Loury On Policing, Race, And Ideological Conformity — Transcript

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0:19good afternoon everyone
0:20i am hannah myers director of manhattan
0:23institute's initiative on policing and
0:25public safety
0:26a lead aim of this new effort is to
0:28produce innovative thinking
0:30on policing on policing based on
0:32empirical research and creative ideas
0:35this requires not only rigorous
0:37scholarship but brave and genuine voices
0:40because without the commitment to
0:42truthfully articulate what we see
0:44how can we reject what is wrong and move
0:46toward what is right
0:48our two guests today have earned loyal
0:51followings for their depth of knowledge
0:53for their gusto in approaching difficult
0:55topics
0:56and for their honesty even when it flies
0:59in the face
0:59of popular narratives or even niceties
1:03i am sure you will share my delicious
1:05anticipation
1:06of their back and forth today on
1:08policing race and ideological conformity
1:11as they challenge each other on these
1:12issues so i eagerly hand the proceedings
1:15over to glenn lowery
1:16to introduce heather mcdonald and
1:18himself and start off their conversation
1:20thank you glenn thank you hannah hi i am
1:23indeed glenn lowery professor of
1:24economics
1:26and of international and public affairs
1:27at brown university
1:29and i'm delighted to be in conversation
1:31with heather mcdonald
1:32who is the thomas w smith fellow at the
1:36manhattan institute and also a
1:37contributing editor
1:39uh to the institute's magazine city
1:41journal and a prolific writer
1:43and a friend can i call you a friend
1:44heather i would be honored
1:47uh that's if that's the first time and
1:48can i call you a friend then is it yeah
1:51okay good excellent let's be friends
1:52because i really do
1:54uh get a lot out of your contributions
1:56to public debate
1:57and so on so here we are talking i could
2:00say a lot about you i'm supposed to
2:01introduce you ba in english from yale oh
2:04in english from clear college uh
2:06cambridge university jd and stanford law
2:09clerking for a federal judge and whatnot
2:11best-selling books the war on cops
2:15that was a monster of an intervention in
2:17public discussion about
2:18one of the most important issues i can
2:20think of the diversity delusion
2:23i know what you're talking about because
2:25i live in academia
2:27and uh the gender and race obsession of
2:30uh
2:30my colleagues and our institutions uh uh
2:33is is a fit for criticism if not
2:36outright ridicule
2:37in my humble opinion but in any case
2:40enough
2:40how are you doing well yeah i'm getting
2:44feedback
2:44uh you don't have to live in academia
2:46any longer to know that the diversity
2:48delusion is
2:49way out of control arguably that is uh
2:52one of the defining features of our
2:54world today as andrew sullivan says
2:56we all are on campus now you know we're
2:58all in gender studies
2:59so uh thanks a lot glenn for for being
3:03part of an institution that is
3:04that is in the process of uh tearing
3:08down
3:09western civilization i would argue uh
3:11strong statement heather
3:13well the gatekeepers are are absent
3:17that but you know what i'm seeing is the
3:18betrayal of the gatekeepers
3:20uh there's not a single
3:24art professor literature professor
3:28head of a classical music organization
3:31that is not that is standing up
3:34to the legacy that is his obligation
3:38to defend in the face of these phony
3:40charges of racism and sexism
3:42uh it's it's terrifying uh in if this
3:46doesn't get stopped
3:47there's going to be very little left
3:49that we can
3:51love and honor in our in our
3:53civilization
3:54uh within a year or so but i know that
3:57uh the manhattan institute wants us to
3:58talk about policing so i'm afraid i got
4:00us
4:01on a on a different track no that's okay
4:02but i was going to go further down the
4:04road but maybe you're right
4:05i mean i was going to qualify a little
4:07bit by saying there are pockets of
4:08sanity that
4:10struggle on by by saying that you know
4:12if you work really hard at it you can
4:14get an education
4:15uh you can find students who are
4:16interested in you know the great books
4:18and the great ideas
4:19and so on uh and there's a lot of
4:22cowardice and
4:23cowering you know of people who agree
4:25with you and
4:26me about this basically but who just are
4:29afraid my inbox is full of letters from
4:31people all over this country i mean
4:32dozens and dozens of them saying
4:35thank god that you're out there doing
4:36what you're doing but and here they tell
4:38me a story but i can't say anything you
4:40know because because my career would be
4:42affected because friendships would be
4:44ruined my life would be miserable and so
4:46on and so forth so it is a problem but
4:48yeah we're supposed to
4:50be talking about policing heather um
4:54we're at a moment of racial reckoning
4:57um whenever a cop god help us if he's
5:00white
5:01shoots a citizen who is black in the
5:04process of carrying out their duties it
5:06becomes a federal case
5:08mobs gather in streets uh literally
5:11mobs gather in effect around courthouses
5:13demanding
5:14particular outcomes of judicial process
5:17uh
5:18politicians bring charges against people
5:20on no merit whatsoever in order to
5:22placate these mobs
5:24um i i just wonder what the heck is
5:27going on i mean you've been writing
5:29about this
5:29kind of thing for a long time and it
5:32feels like we've reached
5:33a critical a critical moment with the
5:36brianna
5:38taylors and the george floyd's and the
5:40ahmed arbouries and
5:41and the so forth of the of this world
5:45and these incidents and i should say
5:46they're regrettable because i believe
5:48they are regrettable i think the loss of
5:50life is regrettable because i believe it
5:51is regrettable
5:53but i do wonder whether or not um the
5:56the reactions are are um
6:00doing more damage than they are good
6:02it's even to the well-being of black
6:04lives on behalf of which these reactions
6:06are
6:06are offered and i just want to give you
6:08an opportunity to
6:10you know talk about that a little bit
6:12well i agree
6:13this is an amazing moment where there's
6:16not a single aspect
6:18of the criminal justice system that is
6:21not under attack
6:22and possibly in the process of being
6:24unwound
6:25because of disparate impact any
6:28anything that a criminal justice system
6:30does whether it's arresting
6:32criminals or sentencing them
6:35if that falls upon a black criminal
6:40notwithstanding that that black criminal
6:43has been preying on
6:45the millions thousands of law-abiding
6:47hard-working black citizens in this
6:49community
6:51that criminal justice system is suspect
6:54uh california is passing a law
6:57that would allow any criminal defendant
7:00to
7:01basically stop the proceedings against
7:03him
7:04by challenging his his uh
7:08sentencing by challenging the way he was
7:10charged
7:11based not on actual evidence of
7:14discrimination in his trial
7:16but on statistical evidence that
7:18allegedly similarly
7:20situated uh defendants in his position
7:24of a different race i.e whites or maybe
7:28asians or hispanics were not as severely
7:31charged or not as severely sentenced
7:34this is ridiculous the statistical
7:36evidence rarely takes into account
7:39adequately criminal history uh
7:42the actual severity of of an offense
7:46but this is going to stop in california
7:49at least it is going to stop
7:51the possibility of prosecuting gang
7:53bangers
7:54and i find it astounding glenn
7:58that over the last several months
8:02as shootings are going up exponentially
8:06in inner city areas the only
8:09conversation
8:10we've been having on a national basis is
8:13about white supremacy
8:15i've i've collected just a few
8:18of the shootings that have gotten no
8:21press response over the last couple
8:24months and i'm only going to read a few
8:27of them from
8:28a last couple weeks but this is what's
8:30happening that
8:31people are turning their eyes away from
8:33october 2nd
8:3514 year old girl shot in the west
8:37englewood section of chicago while
8:38standing on a sidewalk
8:40september 26th 15 year old boy fatally
8:42shot in the head
8:44on the far west side of chicago
8:45september 1. one-year-old boy in kansas
8:48city missouri killed
8:49when someone walked up to the car in
8:51which she was riding and riddled it with
8:52bullets september 15th
8:5415 year old girl shot to death in st
8:56louis september 11th
8:5814 year old boy killed and drive by
9:00shooting in northeast baltimore
9:02september 10th female mail carrier on
9:04the far side of chicago
9:06fatally shot in head abdomen legs and
9:08buttocks
9:09september 7th six-year-old boy shot at
9:11the annual juve
9:13party that opens the west indian day
9:14parade august 29
9:16seven seven-year-old girl killed at a
9:18family birthday party in south bend
9:20indiana
9:21needless to say those victims are all
9:24black children
9:25they compromise just one part of the 40
9:28black children who have been killed
9:30in drive-by shootings since the george
9:32floyd
9:34tragic death and we turn our eyes away
9:38from them
9:38because they don't fit the narrative
9:40instead we're talking about phantom
9:43white supremacy it is
9:44it is a remarkable uh
9:47failure i would say in our public
9:50discourse
9:53the press are playing a fundamental role
9:55in this people are deciding what stories
9:57to write about
9:58which broadcast to make uh and so what
10:01commentaries to offer
10:03um what do you think accounts for
10:06the um the coloration of the
10:11press's reaction to these problems i
10:13mean
10:15what's going on i i really am asking a
10:17question because i don't know the answer
10:18to this i can't
10:20i mean i understand blatant partisanship
10:23trump said it i hate trump therefore i
10:25have to be against it this
10:26this i get but the pathos
10:30the loss the tragedy the pain
10:33the humanity of these situations imagine
10:36a
10:36parent who loses a child at gunshot at
10:39five years old or something like that
10:41this is a story i mean i don't care what
10:44color these people are
10:46this is certainly a part of our
10:48contemporary
10:49uh lives that warrants to be
10:53uh given voice to to i want somebody at
10:56the funeral
10:57i want him to cover i want them to
10:59interview
11:00the parents and the little kids who are
11:02the friends i want them to go to the
11:03school
11:04where these youngsters may have been uh
11:06going to a class every day
11:08and talk to the teachers in the pres
11:10where are these stories i
11:12you know so so this is something i
11:15really
11:15i you know i don't understand uh quite
11:18apart from partisan politics
11:21why the curiosity about the human
11:23dimension of this
11:24aspect of our contemporary lives doesn't
11:28drive uh reporters and maybe not the new
11:30york times but the dayton whatever or
11:32you know to to cover these things in a
11:35greater debt what do you think about
11:36that
11:38well not to answer directly i would
11:40point out
11:41i and i'm i'm appalled by the
11:45rapidity with which the left plays the
11:47racism card these days and i think it's
11:50just again that is destroying our
11:51civilization as well
11:53but in this case i
11:57i'm very tempted to say that it is
12:00objectively racist
12:02because if we change the race on those
12:05children who've been killed to white
12:08i have not a moment's doubt
12:11that there would be a national
12:13revolution that this would be
12:15a huge story uh that politicians would
12:19be called to account
12:21uh and the media would be there if if i
12:24were a black activist i'd be furious
12:27if i were a black lives matter activist
12:29i would be furious
12:31we saw what happened with newton
12:34connecticut
12:35you know two dozen white children killed
12:39that became the source of public
12:42discourse for months on end now
12:45they were all at one time but
12:48the cumulative toll in black communities
12:52of gang drive-by shootings uh reaches
12:55newton connecticut's level uh
12:59you know within within months
13:02and the remarkable thing and that is
13:06another proof that the black lives
13:08matter activists
13:09that it's all just a fraud and a sham
13:13and a a a play for
13:17political power is that they don't
13:21bring up these black lives they're never
13:23there's not i have
13:24never ever ever seen a black lives
13:27matter
13:28activist at at some of the local
13:32very local vigils and protests against
13:36this violence that the good people
13:38in inner city communities do assemble
13:42without attention from the national
13:43media but the black lives matter
13:45activists don't give a damn
13:47because it does not fit what turns out
13:50to be an enormously
13:51powerful narrative uh about white
13:54supremacy
13:55the the pitulation of elite whites to
13:58that
13:59narrative is so automatic and the bounty
14:02that flows from their capitulation at
14:05this point
14:06so magnificent in its princely largesse
14:09uh that there's simply no reason to to
14:12uh
14:13change one's tune and i would just add
14:14quickly
14:16i think you know what's driving this is
14:19that
14:22americans with well intentions
14:25are with good intentions
14:28are despairing at changing that inner
14:31city culture
14:33and would rather turn their eyes away
14:35from it because
14:36perhaps they fear it is not changeable
14:39which i would disagree with
14:40but that's that's my explanation for the
14:43root cause i don't know
14:44what what your explanation is glenn
14:47yeah i don't know that i have one
14:49actually i think there's something to
14:50what you say
14:51i but the racism point is a deep point
14:54if you really cared about black people
14:57uh you would uh
14:58stick your neck out of the foxhole of uh
15:01you know
15:02the overton window kind of foxhole of
15:04what's permissible to be said and you
15:06take a chance
15:07and you decry you call thuggery thuggery
15:11you'd call vicious
15:12uh you know kind of lack of uh contempt
15:15for
15:15the value of human life you call it what
15:17it is you you would
15:19um uh be willing to
15:22confront you know joe biden goes to the
15:24bedside of um
15:26jacob blake and then he issues a
15:29statement
15:29about jacob blake and this i mean no
15:32disrespect to jacob blake no
15:35you know gratuitous disrespect to jacob
15:37blake but
15:38is he an honorable man i i would have
15:40questions about whether or not he's an
15:42honorable man
15:43whatever may have happened to him i
15:45would have questions about whether or
15:46not a presidential candidate should be
15:48speaking to the
15:49country from his bedside and telling us
15:51about his hopes and dreams for recovery
15:53i would just
15:54but who's going to write that piece and
15:56is going to say
15:57uh no no to that kind of uh that kind of
16:01behavior
16:02so so candace owens
16:05i mean she basically showed herself to
16:08be probably the most courageous
16:10person in history uh by recording a
16:13video
16:14uh several months ago about george floyd
16:16and
16:17lamenting the fact that the the majority
16:21of martyrs
16:22that are being celebrated now to police
16:24violence
16:26have very very uh questionable
16:29backgrounds they're
16:30they're criminals and that points out a
16:32reality
16:34of police violence that it is
16:36overwhelmingly
16:38occasioned by criminal behavior or
16:42resisting behavior
16:43on the part of of uh individuals
16:47that this is something that criminology
16:50has known
16:51for decades that the biggest predictor
16:54of officer behavior is civilian behavior
16:57you know if a civilian resists a
17:00lawful effort to gain compliance
17:04uh the officer is going to escalate his
17:07own
17:07force to gain compliance and and it
17:10can ratchet up to tragic levels
17:13obviously but
17:15but uh that's what's going all of
17:18practically all of these
17:19shootings could have been avoided if if
17:21somebody had
17:23resisted arrest uh george floyd i want
17:26to talk about it and
17:27the this thing that we're talking about
17:29now the kind of self-censorship and
17:32the uh you know constrained ability to
17:36have an open discourse about what's
17:38actually going on for fear of giving
17:39offense of
17:40fear of violating some stricture
17:43and coming off looking like you're a
17:44racist or like you're indifferent it
17:46affects
17:47everybody and it certainly affects even
17:49me so a friend sends me an email he says
17:52a gold casket
17:53really this is george floyd's funeral
17:56okay caisson you know you would have
17:59thought it was jfk you would have
18:01thought
18:02you know really okay
18:05and um i'm thinking i'm an
18:07african-american i'm saying oh my god
18:10look at my people my black people look
18:12at how we
18:13you know i see al sharpton up there
18:15doing his shtick
18:16uh you know i hear all the mournful uh
18:19recitations of the platitudes and
18:21whatnot
18:23now did not speak ill of the dead
18:25certainly not speaking with the black
18:26dead
18:27brought to uh you know death by the
18:29hands of a police officer
18:30but come on really this is
18:34and what are we saying to our children i
18:36mean here's what i want to argue with
18:38people i say when obama was elected you
18:40told me role models
18:41he's going to change everything young
18:43black men will have another you know
18:44whatever
18:45well there's a flip side to that if you
18:48make
18:49miscreants uh you know
18:52not even near do wells bombs
18:55into your heroes what do you say to your
18:59children
19:01what are you offering up is a vision
19:03about how we
19:04that is now african americans should be
19:07living
19:08so i mean i guess we can go on like this
19:10heather i'm not sure i i should probably
19:12try to
19:13uh well yeah i suppose what a counter
19:17argument would be here but i mean
19:18you know it is heart-wrenching to see
19:23the nobility the honor
19:26the courage of blacks in the
19:29first part of the 20th century
19:33who made the best of themselves who
19:36contributed
19:37so much to american culture the
19:39musicians elephants gerald
19:41duke ellington with dress to the nines
19:46giving us beauty sublimity
19:49in their music in their dignity
19:53at a time when they were subject to such
19:56heart-wrenching hatred and
19:59and contempt and yet they had the
20:02the broadness and greatness of spirit
20:07to keep moving forward in a belief
20:11that integration was possible and that
20:14they could
20:15strive and meet high standards
20:18and that ultimately we would be one
20:21culture and now
20:23we have an oppositional culture you know
20:25the
20:26identity of a
20:30large portion not i would say the
20:33entirety
20:34but at least of many black leaders and
20:36some
20:37uh just black american citizens
20:40is oppositional you know the whole
20:42anti-white
20:44ethic in schools which defines academic
20:47effort
20:48as a sellout to black identity
20:52uh and and this is part of a broader
20:54movement that just came out of the 60s
20:56where you had
20:57protest being celebrated as as
21:00necessarily right because the civil
21:03rights protests
21:04were necessarily right but from then on
21:09uh the idea that america was
21:11inerratically evil
21:13you know took hold and and now you have
21:17people celebrating as you say uh
21:21actual some of them thugs simply because
21:25uh they stand as an as an opposite pole
21:29to
21:30authority uh but what i would like to
21:33ask you
21:33i've been tracing this summer a piece
21:36that i
21:37have never been able to finish yet but
21:39the whole law and order meme
21:42which is used the new york times in the
21:44washington post
21:45endlessly say that every time trump
21:47invokes law and order
21:49uh that's a dog whistle and that that's
21:52a racist
21:52phrase well i i i'd i'd be interested in
21:56your opinion on that
21:57is that correct because what's weird
21:59about that claim
22:00is that it implicitly
22:03seems to acknowledge what is forboden to
22:07be said explicitly
22:09which is that there is an
22:11extraordinarily
22:12disproportionate level of black criminal
22:15offending so if you're talking about law
22:17and order
22:18uh you're going to be talking about
22:21trying to
22:22uh protect oneself from criminals who
22:25are disproportionately black
22:26now they one wouldn't be allowed to say
22:28that in the new york times but
22:30what is your view is it is
22:33is references to law and order now
22:36fatally poisoned by
22:391950s and 1960s rhetoric or is that a
22:42legitimate
22:44uh campaign platform i'll
22:47you know show my cards i think it is i
22:50think we are
22:50you know the breakdown of law and order
22:52these last couple months
22:54is terrifying we're on the we're on the
22:56edge of civil anarchy but what is
22:58how do you respond to that phrase uh
23:01i think it's perfectly legitimate i
23:03think indeed it's necessary i think it's
23:04imperative
23:05frankly i think obama ought to have used
23:07it i said it
23:09obama when baltimore was up in flames
23:12after freddie gray
23:13when ferguson uh missouri was up in
23:16flames uh after
23:17uh michael brown the president of the
23:19united states a black man could have
23:20done something that might have spared us
23:23this
23:24heather had he stood up in front of the
23:27microphone instead of saying stuff like
23:29if i had a son he'd look like trayvon
23:33and stuff like uh you know i can't quote
23:36him
23:36we could do the research but basically
23:38let's not overreact to this thing give
23:41people a chance to blow off steam after
23:42all they've got a beef
23:44instead of saying that if he had said as
23:46a black man
23:48the first priority the first imperative
23:51of the government is to secure
23:53individuals in their person and their
23:55property
23:56no political objection justifies setting
23:59fire to anybody's anything
24:01no political objection does it right
24:04we are a country of laws and i am the
24:08chief law enforcement officer of the
24:10country
24:10and notwithstanding my commitment to
24:13civil rights and my love of african
24:15american culture
24:16and my appreciation of the frustrations
24:18of people
24:19i in the office of president must insist
24:23he could have said it he didn't say it i
24:26can't tell you why he didn't say it but
24:27i can say
24:28had he said it it could have completely
24:31ch
24:31in my opinion it could have changed the
24:34uh political possibility set
24:36for anybody who occupies that office
24:38because then
24:39the race card uh argument he's trying to
24:42uh dog whistle to the white racists out
24:45there by using law order
24:46would have no credibility whatsoever
24:49trump or anybody would be able to say
24:51well wait wait here is barack obama your
24:53first black president
24:54i'm the president of the united states
24:56i'm simply doing my job he could have
24:57said
24:58had obama etc so um
25:02who is going to suffer if civil society
25:05collapses
25:06in these cities who are going to be the
25:08people not only from the
25:09criminal violence but also from the
25:11collapse of the economic activity as you
25:13as you have pointed out in some of your
25:15writing i know i'm not going to invest
25:17my life savings and opening up a small
25:19business on an avenue when i look and
25:20see a housing project two miles down the
25:22road and i have to contemplate
25:24the probability is you know 0.15 that
25:27they're going to burn me
25:28down if a police officer has to use this
25:30uh etc
25:31i wouldn't do that i wouldn't make that
25:33investment um
25:35so of course it's legitimate now
25:38i can see what a counter argument here
25:40might be
25:41they would say uh look at this is a this
25:44is something that the republicans have
25:46used going back a long way
25:48uh richard nixon etc uh there are
25:51after all people out there who are uh
25:54gonna be responsive to
25:55if you know they're gonna if i say
25:57suburbs
25:58are endangered by civil disorder they're
26:01gonna think suburbs white
26:02inner city black whatever whatever so
26:06uh they'll say that there's some kind of
26:08historical precedent for
26:10uh for using the law and order trope is
26:13a way to activate the
26:14the racist uh subconscious racism of
26:17american
26:18uh politics uh but if you're asking me
26:21and i
26:22you know i've told you what i think uh i
26:24i believe that president obama actually
26:26ought to have
26:27responded quite differently to the civil
26:28disorder that took place during his
26:30administration if he had done so
26:32i i think we would have had a very
26:33different situation going forward
26:36well those that was just an absolutely
26:38inspiring
26:40uh uh speech and i wish you'd been a
26:42speechwriter
26:43and i think you've got a career ahead of
26:45you you gotta you gotta get out there
26:46more
26:47uh and that raises an issue when you say
26:49it's the his you know the argument is
26:51well there's a historical precedent for
26:53that trope
26:53and therefore when we use it today it
26:57must mean the same thing
26:58that's one of the questions that we're
27:01facing today with the
27:03uh alleged reckoning with white
27:05supremacy and and white
27:07privilege how much can a culture change
27:12you know is it possible to do an about
27:14face
27:15or is that unrealistic and
27:19i would say contrary to all expectations
27:22you know if you had
27:24looked at the at the
27:27fervor with which segregation was
27:31defended
27:32as long as possible in the 50s and 60s
27:37and and the seeming blindness
27:41of the majority of america to its
27:44founding violations of of principle
27:48and their their endurance you know from
27:51if you if you didn't know today you
27:54could say yeah
27:55the 1619 project that's plausible you
27:57know
27:58tony he see coats that that's the very
28:00it's the very essence of america to
28:02destroy the black body
28:04that's possible but i would say that the
28:07country has
28:08changed fantastically we all talk about
28:12white privilege let's be honest
28:16you know you don't have to look at these
28:18uh these
28:19these professors who were trying to pass
28:21as black
28:22uh to realize that
28:26if you have a child applying to college
28:29today
28:31he's got a lot better chance if he's
28:34black than if he's white and let's be
28:36honest that applies as well
28:38to getting a faculty job getting a
28:40promotion
28:41getting a job at google getting a job at
28:44paul weiss law firm
28:46getting a job at at bank of america
28:51that it would seem when it comes to the
28:54overwhelming experience now again one
28:57has to throw in the mandatory
29:00uh disclaimer well of course there's
29:02racists out there
29:03i'm going to do that only to recognize
29:05that that's mandatory but i actually
29:07don't believe it's very useful
29:09because those people do not have
29:14any effect really on the life course of
29:17most blacks today
29:19and if we're going to say that i insist
29:21that we also say
29:23let's acknowledge black anti-white
29:25racism
29:26which is very real sure uh if you know
29:30you don't have to spend much time
29:31outside of of sharpton's national action
29:34network which i have done
29:36to hear some real anti-white racism
29:40for understandable reasons but that is
29:42pretty ingrained i would say
29:44so i would argue that his we have
29:47changed our history and we have to be
29:50able to say that
29:51uh as as as unrealistic it is but often
29:55conservatives point out
29:56the fact that when it comes to gay
29:58rights
29:59that too was just an extraordinary about
30:02face in a period of time
30:04that nobody would have expected so i i
30:07think that
30:08we shouldn't be held hostage to what was
30:12a very blind and very callous history
30:16actually if people go back and open up
30:18gunner merida's
30:20two-volume treatise an american dilemma
30:23written in the 1930s and 40s and take a
30:25look at what he describes as the social
30:27situation of the negro
30:28uh at that time i think the modal
30:32occupation of a black man was farm
30:34laborer and of a black woman was
30:36domestic servant
30:37i think the ratio of median family
30:39income black to white was like point
30:41four something like that forty percent
30:43on a dollar
30:44uh family income and it'll be like point
30:46seven right now
30:48uh i think the representation of african
30:50americans in the professions was
30:51essentially
30:52zilch i'm talking about law medicine
30:54engineering and so on
30:56uh segregation was rampant lynching was
30:59still ongoing
31:00etc uh and this is within
31:04a lifetime of uh my lifetime i was born
31:06in 1948
31:08uh of uh of uh transformation it's
31:11really quite remarkable i i don't think
31:13you can find another example frankly of
31:15a
31:16country of any size with a substantial
31:19uh racial ethnic uh minority of
31:21subordinated persons who have been held
31:23in a kind of serfdom-like status
31:25whose position within society has
31:29improved to the same degree and extent
31:31as has been the case
31:33for african americans i mean we lose
31:34sight of this because
31:36uh the little bit of progress remaining
31:39to be
31:40uh realized uh looms so large in our
31:42minds especially for the activists but
31:44i i think a fair historical reading uh
31:48would uh would contradict the the the
31:50narrative coming out of the likes of
31:52tonight's colts but i want to say
31:53something else heather and see how you
31:54react to it
31:55because you mentioned disparate impact
31:57and i think that's the heart of the
31:58matter
32:00the heart of the matter is there are
32:01racial differences in the average rates
32:03of success and certain kinds of
32:05activities and a failure in certain kind
32:06of activities there's an
32:07over-representation of blacks
32:09amongst people who are in prisons that's
32:11called mass incarceration and it's said
32:13to be racist there's an
32:14underrepresentation of blacks
32:16amongst people who are achieving
32:18outstanding results and some of these
32:20academic specialties and that's called
32:22not enough black faculty in the physics
32:24department
32:24not enough black faculty in the
32:26sociology department universities are
32:28beating themselves
32:29because there's not enough
32:31representation
32:32and what i think we've got is the
32:35juxtaposition of two things i think
32:36we've got the fact
32:38of this dramatic historical
32:40transformation in the status of african
32:41americans from a kind of serfdom
32:43into something that's very close to
32:45equal citizenship and in some cases
32:48privileged benefits because of
32:50affirmative action and so on we've got
32:51that
32:52but we've also got the persistence of
32:54inequality we've got the
32:56over-representation of blacks amongst
32:57those who are incarcerated we've got a
32:59huge
32:59uh achievement gap in the educational
33:02spheres and so forth
33:04and people are just having a hard time
33:07dealing with these two things and it
33:09requires a denial of one or
33:11the other it requires
33:15saying it's the system's fault that's
33:17where i think systemic racism comes from
33:19it's basically saying
33:21yes there are disparities but no it's
33:23not the fault of
33:24african americans who suffer on the
33:26short end of this yes there's an
33:28over-representation of blacks in prison
33:30but no it's not because they're greater
33:32criminal offending it's because the cops
33:34are biased the laws of bias and so forth
33:36and so on
33:36yes there's a shortage of black
33:38professors but no it's not
33:40princeton university declares to the
33:41world we've got to do better brown
33:43university
33:44doubles down its commitment to diversity
33:46and inclusion harvard university
33:48declares diversity inclusion and
33:49belonging and belonging uh
33:52in in the face of the uh insufficient
33:54numbers of african-americans
33:57the stench of failures in the air and
33:59people just can't bear it i
34:01i say that as a proud african-american
34:05failure failure to see such
34:07opportunities
34:08as exist in the society the existence of
34:12which opportunities are demonstrated by
34:13the fact that others who are not of
34:15european origin
34:16who are coming to our country in the
34:18millions over the last couple of
34:20generations are seizing
34:22these very same opportunities so
34:26that is what i think is at the at the
34:28core of this
34:29uh this temper um and and i i think it's
34:33fraught with all kinds of interesting
34:35psychological and and really phil moral
34:37philosophic
34:38aspects shame shame shame at the failure
34:43uh uh a kind of uh
34:46bluff a bluffing that goes on where
34:48people dare you to say
34:49they you know they they trot out the
34:51evidence of the disparate impact
34:54they assume that the only acceptable
34:57explanation of it
34:58is uh unfair treatment and they
35:00basically dare you to contradict him
35:03they dare you to call whoever it is
35:06george floyd what he actually
35:08was they're daring you to say if you
35:10didn't resist the rest
35:11you wouldn't end up in a physical
35:13conflict with a police officer the
35:14consequences of which can be
35:16fatal etc
35:19well the cardinal rule
35:23in progressive or liberal discourse is
35:26thou
35:26shall not observe behavior and culture
35:29that is dysfunctional
35:31when it comes to official victim groups
35:34you're just not allowed to see it
35:35as you say the only allowable
35:37explanation
35:38is system and structure and
35:42this began with that book in the 1960s
35:45so you cannot blame the victim
35:47i don't know where that came out of but
35:49that was going to happen
35:51it was a reaction to the moynihan river
35:52i see right so
35:54you have to treat blacks as as automata
35:58as people who do not have agency
36:02uh who are inevitable uh
36:05pawns of structures in which they live
36:09and that cannot make good decisions
36:12through their own individual
36:16choice choices they they are
36:19doomed and destined to end up in those
36:23situations where they are
36:25not competitively qualified for a whole
36:28variety of jobs
36:30and i've said before that is to me the
36:32basic
36:33divide between a conservative and a
36:36liberal outlook is that
36:38uh conservatives are more likely to see
36:42large-scale outcomes or individual
36:44outcomes as the result of
36:46bad choices or good choices and
36:48decision-making and
36:50and liberals will see structure now both
36:53sides are blind
36:54i could i'm willing to admit that
36:57perhaps conservatives are not
36:58attuned enough to inherited structural
37:02disadvantages
37:03uh but i think it is as just purely a um
37:08a strategy for success one's better off
37:11erring on the side of
37:13yeah you've been dealt a bad hand but
37:15you can make
37:16certain basic decisions that will vastly
37:19improve your lot in life and you know
37:21this is the
37:22the success uh strategy that we've heard
37:25about from william galston
37:27but uh you know instead you have
37:30elite culture now struggling for any
37:34other explanation other than a lack of a
37:37fanatical school
37:38culture uh the the disappearance of
37:42fathers which is not
37:43only important for any individual child
37:46but is
37:47equally important for having a culture
37:49that values
37:52paternal responsibility and marriage and
37:55sends a message to young males
37:57that they are expected to develop those
38:00bourgeois habits of deferred
38:01gratification
38:03and self-reliance that would make them
38:05acceptable mates
38:06so what we have now is really sort of
38:09the pathos
38:11of these uh statue burnings
38:14and and monument desecrations
38:18with the idea that if we if we get rid
38:21of
38:22some statue in some public park that
38:24nobody for the last
38:26two centuries has known what the hell it
38:28represents and who that person is
38:30but if we get rid of all these statues
38:33uh
38:34and and and names on streets that
38:36somehow
38:37uh black academic achievement is going
38:41to improve
38:42i can guarantee you we can throw out
38:44everything we can we can get rid of
38:45washington dc
38:46we can tear down the washington mall
38:48nothing is going to change
38:50because it's not the statues that are
38:53responsible for the academic achievement
38:56gap
38:58uh saying that the statues are a
39:00symbolic uh
39:02emblem or representation of a history of
39:05racial domination and so on and and you
39:08know
39:09i mean but i i agree with you about
39:10depressing efforts it's all
39:12it's it's all a kind of symbolic thing
39:14and it doesn't get to it doesn't get
39:16down to cases it doesn't get down to how
39:18kids are being raised how they're being
39:19educated et cetera
39:21they're also going to say i just have to
39:23say this they
39:24they're also going to say look at such
39:26deficiencies that you
39:28see in uh african-american social life
39:30family life and so forth
39:32are themselves the consequences or at
39:34least to some degree of the history of
39:35exclusion and so forth
39:37they're going to say slavery was a total
39:40kind of domination thing where families
39:42didn't have a chance to breathe they're
39:43going to say
39:44uh that the denial of access to
39:47employment opportunities for black men
39:49uh helped to undermine their standing
39:51with a family and encourage a kind of
39:53matriarchal
39:54dynamic to evolve and so forth and so on
39:56so they're going to say sure
39:58a first order observation would leave us
40:00thinking that these people are not
40:01behaving properly
40:03but a deeper and more sophisticated
40:04historical view would understand
40:07that the reasons that the blacks are
40:08like this and the jews are like that and
40:10the asians are like this and so forth
40:12are themselves the product of of uh
40:14structural
40:15uh dynamics that's what they're gonna
40:17say to which i would say
40:19please really i can't shape my own life
40:23i'm completely
40:24a prisoner of some uh you know i'm a
40:27puppet at the end of the string being
40:29pulled this way and that by historical
40:31forces i don't believe that for a minute
40:33i mean if i believe that
40:35what kind of way of being in the world
40:36is it to think that i have
40:38no control over what happens in my own
40:41life or
40:41in the lives of my children i would say
40:44and here i kind of
40:45uh echo amy wax yes i mentioned amy wax
40:49if you step off the curb in a negligent
40:51bus driver runs over you that's
40:53obviously not your fault you're a victim
40:54of negligence
40:56but if you don't go to physical therapy
40:58you're never going to walk again
40:59now whose responsibility is it to get up
41:01go through the painful exercises and
41:03recover
41:04the facility to walk it's your
41:06responsibility notwithstanding the fact
41:07that the bus driver should have been
41:09paying attention and
41:11for me that's where we are as
41:13african-americans here now
41:15it's our responsibility to raise our
41:16children it's our responsibility to make
41:19the most of
41:19the best of a hand that you know to some
41:22degree has been a bad hand but it's
41:24nevertheless our responsibility no one
41:25is going to
41:26do it for us nobody is coming to save us
41:31that's that's the speech i've been given
41:33yeah i was going to mention precisely
41:35that the amy wax rights and remedies and
41:37it's not just responsibility it's
41:38efficacy
41:40uh you know what she also emphasizes is
41:42that
41:44as whether they not have we have a
41:46responsibility we can't
41:48do it there is not a substitute
41:50government programs are not a substitute
41:52for fathers and
41:54the idea that we that there hasn't been
41:56massive effort
41:58uh on the part of society as a
42:00collective
42:01to try and change those urban
42:03pathologies is
42:04ludicrous and it's not just the
42:07trillions of dollars that have been
42:08spent
42:09in government uh transfer programs and
42:12and social services
42:13i don't know a single wealthy republican
42:17donor
42:18who is not trying with again
42:21true good intentions and good will
42:25to help people in the inner city whether
42:28it's the after-school chess program
42:30or guarantees of tuition payments
42:33the idea to get back to this ludicrous
42:35meme of white supremacy
42:37is ridiculous i i think that the vast
42:40majority of whites today have
42:42nothing but goodwill for blacks and
42:45those with
42:45power uh exert that power
42:49to try and change and and close that
42:52skills gap to the extent they can but
42:54the question is
42:56has that worked and can it work it it
42:58cannot without
42:59without individual effort and and on the
43:02the sort of statues and
43:04and his history of discrimination point
43:06i recently
43:07re-read uh trollops the way we live now
43:11because i was recording a a book
43:13discussion on george l it's middle march
43:15with with michael knowles and i wanted
43:17just a comparison of
43:18victorian novelists for style and and
43:21sort of well i'll just say this i love
43:23this about you
43:24heather that you are a very cultured
43:26woman
43:27music opera literature and whatnot but
43:30you write the most trenchant
43:31essays on political and social matters
43:34and that's a rare thing to find i tell
43:36you so i
43:37you know hats off to you well thank you
43:39i wish i wish i could spend all my time
43:41on beauty
43:42as i'm sure you do well you and and not
43:44not taking on this
43:45this uh tragic stuff but but anyway
43:48what was clear uh in the trollop was um
43:52the the frank portrayal at least and
43:55whether it's shared by trollop one can
43:58question
43:58of anti-catholicism but particularly
44:01anti-semitism
44:02uh there's a character uh in in the
44:05trollope way we live now who's
44:07uh a jewish merchant very successful and
44:09he is the target of
44:11of just absolutely unapologetic
44:14shameless proud anti-semitism on the
44:17part of a family whose
44:19daughter is so her wits and for not
44:21being married isn't
44:22and she thinks she's becoming an old
44:24maid that she's actually contemplating
44:25marrying this guy
44:27he turns out to be one of the noblest
44:30characters in the book so whether
44:32trollope shares that
44:33that um anti-semitism is questionable
44:37but ultimately irrelevant as far as i'm
44:39concerned
44:39my point only is that uh
44:42the history of anti-semitism as as
44:46you know you mentioned princeton uh
44:48that's one of the things that princeton
44:50is currently
44:51beating its chest about but it hasn't
44:53been anti-semitic
44:55for decades uh but but there was
44:59very real contempt and hatred for jews
45:03and they basically said to hell with
45:06that
45:07and whooped everybody's ass anyway
45:10uh they put up with the segregation they
45:13gradually worked their way in
45:14but they they embraced western
45:16civilization i mean some of our greatest
45:18literary critics have been jewish
45:20uh and read these books of of of the
45:23english 19th century victorians with
45:26with perspicacity and and gratitude
45:30so you know one doesn't want to sort of
45:33play one group off against another but
45:36there
45:36are historical examples
45:40of the possibility of
45:43overcoming societal-wide discrimination
45:47by dint of hard work and we are just
45:50not willing to send that message today
45:52nobody is saying that it is
45:54very curious and it gets back to the
45:56original question
45:58you posed glenn which is what the hell
46:01is going on here
46:02and and i repeat myself that i think
46:06that whites are preemptively
46:09wanting to solidify the myth of bias
46:13and the bias explanation uh because they
46:16don't want to contemplate
46:18other possible explanations for for the
46:20persistence
46:22of of those large-scale inequalities
46:25well other possible explanations include
46:28essential or genetically based
46:30differences between populations and that
46:33is you know fair boat and we know that
46:34that's racist
46:36and we know that that argument is out
46:38there
46:40so that should be noted
46:43uh but you speak of the jews you speak
46:45of the jews and i want to make two
46:46points one is
46:47if you do so much being counting that
46:49you're telling me about
46:50underrepresentation every time
46:52there's any kind of selective activity
46:54like who gets in the faculty of a great
46:56university
46:57and they're not enough blacks they're
46:58not they're underrepresented well you
47:00know
47:01the representation numbers have to add
47:02up to one the fractions they have to add
47:04up to one
47:05so if there's under representation
47:06there's over representation i don't know
47:08how you go down the road of a discourse
47:10about underrepresentation without
47:12implicitly
47:13indicting the overrepresented for
47:15somehow another not being deserving
47:17of their status well that's going to be
47:19the jews in many cases
47:21okay so you better think about that
47:24um the other point i want to make is i
47:26agree that you know as an
47:28african-american i have had to confront
47:30this personally
47:31people have doubt about your abilities
47:33they don't know whether or not you're
47:34fit
47:35sure now there are a couple ways of
47:36responding to that one of them is to
47:38dismiss
47:39their doubts call them racist and tell
47:42them to go to hell
47:43another is to double down your effort
47:45and dispel their doubts
47:47here you look at what i just
47:48accomplished you think i'm not fit
47:50deal with that um there is actually a
47:55case to be made
47:56for the second uh way of uh going about
47:59it because the first way invites
48:00patronization it
48:01it invites uh people to uh
48:04to to tolerate you by saying oh yes
48:06you're right you're right
48:08uh we have to do better the second way
48:09is the is is a
48:11is a way of power i have a friend who's
48:13an african-american scientist and he's
48:14always talking about racism and science
48:16to whom i say you know what if albert
48:19einstein was i think the year was 1903
48:21when he published those three great
48:22papers on special relativity
48:24on brownie and motion and on the
48:26photoelectric effect he published three
48:28papers any one of which in one year
48:30any one of which could have been worthy
48:32of a nobel prize i say if einstein has
48:34spent as much time
48:35thinking about being jewish as you've
48:37been thinking about being black he would
48:38have never had time to write those
48:40papers
48:43he's also not going to get hired today
48:45because a lot of schools now
48:47are making diversity commitment
48:50and diversity status the
48:53precondition to being considered in stem
48:56school after school in the university of
48:58california system
48:59the initial screening procedure is is
49:02your diversity statement
49:04of sufficient enthusiasm and zealotry
49:07uh or are you going to contribute to
49:09diversity i.e
49:10are you female or minority uh and
49:13and if you don't pass that bar your
49:16your uh your application to teach
49:20is to put in the junk file it's
49:22remarkable
49:23so whether einstein would have gotten
49:25through
49:26uh whether people that were developing
49:29nuclear
49:30physics you know lawrence liverpool
49:32laboratory
49:33none of them would have uh because they
49:35were too involved
49:36in the eros of knowledge of
49:39pursuing the the uh
49:43ability to understand our universe
49:46so it is it is truly incredible
49:50the diversion of our scientific talent
49:52somebody sent me
49:54uh a a notice from the university of
49:57california davis
49:58uh a science department that sent around
50:02a memo that they'd had a very long
50:03conversation
50:05about this and they've decided they have
50:07to stop
50:08calling their their uh weekly
50:11meetings and within the department brown
50:14bag lunches
50:15oh come on this is what our scientists
50:19are doing silly i'm sorry it's silly
50:22they're doing it i have
50:25everything is silly everything is silly
50:28i mean
50:29this is what we're i don't know
50:33i don't believe i don't believe in
50:35conspiracy theories but i'm moving to
50:36the point now where i do
50:38think it is conceivable that china
50:41is the funder of our
50:45ideology because this is this is suicide
50:47this is scientific suicide
50:49okay donald j trump his name came up
50:51briefly before we've only got a few
50:53minutes and i wanted to raise the name
50:54again because i believe without being
50:56able to prove it
50:58that the advent of trump and the schism
51:01in our politics that has come about
51:02because of trump's success getting
51:04himself elected president
51:05appointing three supreme court justices
51:07it will be soon enough
51:09um and the hatred of trump by by many uh
51:13quarters including some republicans is
51:16somehow implicated in this moment i mean
51:19i can't prove it
51:21but i somehow feel that if we ask why is
51:23the press not reporting
51:25differently that the answer at least in
51:28part is because if they did they reckon
51:29it would help trump
51:31if we ask why are uh activists seizing
51:34on certain kinds of tropes
51:36i think the heightened sense of their
51:40um being behind the barricades and under
51:43uh duress
51:43because trump represents a certain
51:46thrust in american
51:48culture and politics he's pro-life he's
51:50pro-gun
51:51he wants a border uh he's not an
51:55internationalist and whatnot threatens
51:58uh
51:58people in ways that they are then
52:00somehow reacting to i've said enough i
52:02want to hear what you think
52:03about the role that trump's ascendancy
52:06plays in
52:07uh contributing and people's reactions
52:10to it
52:10plays in contributing to this uh this
52:12moment of crisis that we're in
52:15i both agree and disagree i think that
52:17you're being
52:18way too charitable towards the press to
52:21think that pre-trump
52:22they were reporting the facts i mean
52:24glenn you know that's not the case the
52:26new york times has been running
52:28it's it's gotcha bean counting stories
52:31on
52:32diversity in companies and and whether
52:34it's
52:35gender or sex or race
52:38forever uh they've been promoting
52:42uh the racial divisiveness
52:45i i think that this is i see it more
52:49as the result of another
52:52say let's look at the first iteration of
52:54the black lives matter movement in 2015
52:57and 2016.
52:58things are much worse the crime the what
53:00i call the ferguson effect we can redub
53:02it either ferguson effect 2.0 or the
53:04minneapolis effect
53:05is much worse the the breakdown is much
53:07faster the crime increases much faster
53:09i attribute that to another five years
53:12of
53:13poisonous academic ideology and with all
53:16due respect i agree
53:18glenn you're right that it is possible
53:19if you are an extremely
53:21enlightened student to find teachers
53:23like you
53:24in the social sciences and the hard
53:26sciences and you're doing very very hard
53:28work
53:29very those students are are working
53:31their butts off
53:32but the import or the export from
53:35universities today
53:37is overwhelmingly this this very
53:39poisonous ideology
53:42so that's what's going on is we are
53:45becoming more and more of a
53:47marinated a society marinated in
53:49academic allergy
53:50that being said i think that
53:53yes the degree of hysteria that
53:57and the the sheer uh insanity
54:01of the mainstream establishment
54:04is is heightened by the trump hatred
54:08but nevertheless if we got rid of trump
54:10like for instance here's a thought
54:12experiment
54:13there's many people who are optimistic
54:15who say
54:16when biden is elected this all ends that
54:19we open the economy
54:21no more uh white supremacy talk no more
54:24white privileged trainings i disagree
54:27completely i think this thing is a
54:28juggernaut that is fueled by something
54:30that
54:31long preceded trump but do you think if
54:33if when biden is i'm saying when not if
54:36and i'm going to
54:36make all the trump supporters which uh
54:39very mad
54:40yeah it does look like he's going to be
54:41elected but do you think so
54:43do you think that that we're going to
54:45return to sanity or is
54:46is biden going to just continue
54:50uh the left-wing agenda which has i
54:52think it's a juggernaut right now
54:54well the latter i mean we may have a
54:56less uh
54:57you know uh tortured kind of uh
55:02public uh uh schism uh
55:05i don't know how trump's people will
55:07react to losing maybe they'll react
55:08better
55:09than hillary clinton's people reacted to
55:11losing so
55:12it may tamp down the temperature a
55:14little bit but i just got
55:16a former student who works for the aclu
55:18just sent me a notice saying
55:20i'm on a task force to try to figure out
55:22what a biden administration should do
55:23what are your
55:24three best ideas for anti-racist
55:26policies in the event of abiding
55:29these people are getting ready for uh
55:31you know rolling back everything that
55:33trump was trying to do
55:34and pushing forward on on their own
55:36stuff
55:37right we may get candies we might we may
55:39get the amendment i mean i am i'm such a
55:41pessimist that i am not going to rule
55:43that out that we get
55:45an anti-racism amendment to the
55:47constitution
55:48if that happens well we'll see we didn't
55:51get the equal rights amendment how are
55:52we going to get
55:53and there are a lot more women than
55:54there are black people because
55:57we've had another 40 50 years
56:00of this we've had more and more people
56:02going out into the corporations
56:04into the law firms into government into
56:07arts organizations
56:09uh that have been marinated in this
56:11stuff again it breaks my heart to see
56:15julia the head of juilliard okay nobody
56:18is defending the civilization and that's
56:20because
56:21uh of of the academic culture that is
56:23telling us to hate
56:25our past and to hate each other um this
56:28is glenn lowery i'm with heather
56:29mcdonald we've been having a
56:30conversation
56:31and i have enjoyed the heck out of it
56:32but i'm gonna give it back to hannah
56:34now uh and the manhattan institute
56:36central so thanks so much heather
56:38thank you glenn i look forward to
56:39talking to you again me too my friend
56:45well they say the better the company the
56:46darker the conversation
56:48um so thank you both for letting us all
56:51be flies on the wall as two friends
56:54newly codified discussed some of the
56:56most
56:57troubling and looming problems around us
56:59right now
57:00um we are so appreciative of your time
57:03and of your thoughts
57:05before we close i would like to invite
57:06our public audience
57:08to sign up on our website to receive
57:10updates from the policing and public
57:11safety
57:12initiative including information on our
57:13two event casts happening next
57:15next week one will focus on different
57:17models of police reform including total
57:19department overhaul
57:21and the other on the experiences and
57:23perspectives of black police executives
57:26on our website you can also browse the
57:27manhattan institute's research and
57:29subscribe to our newsletters
57:31if you are able please also consider
57:33supporting the institute
57:34at the link you see below mi is a
57:37non-profit organization
57:38and our work depends on the support of
57:40people like you um again thank you to
57:42our two fantastic
57:44guests i've never heard such dismal
57:46information
57:47uh put forth um with
57:50so much charm and uh
57:54and it was a delight to listen to both
57:55of you thank you everybody

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