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He Survived 76 Days Lost at Sea… Then THIS Happened | Steven Callahan — Transcript

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0:00After 76 days adrift in the Atlantic,
0:03American sailor Steven Callahan was
0:06found alive.
0:08>> That's a very common feeling amongst
0:09survivors. It's like at the beginning
0:11your whole life's been flushed down the
0:12toilet. These are horrible experiences
0:14we have. It's not like we want to go
0:15back and have them again, but they also
0:18have these kind of irreplaceable
0:20precious qualities. They're
0:22You learn so much about yourself and
0:24about the world. Definitely a spiritual
0:26experience.
0:26>> In the 76 days you were drifting alone
0:31at sea, what was your most hopeless
0:32moment?
0:33>> It it really felt like death was kind of
0:35closing in and I
0:46>> Steve Callahan, thank you so much for
0:49making time to be here.
0:49>> No worries.
0:52>> Steve, you
0:54were adrift
0:56at sea
0:58for 76 days
1:01by yourself
1:02on a life raft.
1:05And then before that, you were sailing
1:06by yourself on I think you said a 21-ft
1:10boat for a year.
1:13What can you take me
1:17to the moment that you were on your boat
1:20after that year and you suddenly heard
1:24the boat crash into something
1:26and starts to fill up with water?
1:29Like can you take me to that moment,
1:31that experience? What did you think?
1:33What did you grab? What did you do?
1:35>> I don't know. I'd been sailing and doing
1:38offshore stuff for a while by that time
1:41and uh
1:43had gone across the north part of the
1:44North Atlantic in in this little boat.
1:48Um
1:48So, I knew the boat pretty well and
1:51uh
1:53was basically in the milk run, so to
1:55speak, between the Canary Islands and
1:57the Caribbean.
1:59Um and had actually a lovely week of
2:01sailing.
2:02Um
2:03much more peaceful than the North
2:04Atlantic in general. And uh but on
2:09February 4th, the wind had gotten up.
2:12There was a low-pressure system passing.
2:15And I wasn't too worried about it. The
2:17waves were about maybe They're pretty
2:20big. I mean, three a few meters
2:22probably.
2:23Uh roughly 10 ft. Um
2:26and the boat was kind of carving its way
2:29across these waves towards the Caribbean
2:31very happily. Um
2:33but you always have to be kind of
2:35cautious in these scenarios. And I kept
2:38getting up and looking around and making
2:41sure everything was okay. And
2:43um
2:45stupidly took off all my clothes at one
2:47point except a T-shirt and lay back
2:49down.
2:50Um
2:52thinking I might be able to get some
2:53rest for a bit. And uh suddenly there's
2:56a big bash on the side of the boat. Um
2:59uh felt it kind of jumped up against the
3:01waves up to weather. And
3:04just a torrent of water coming in, you
3:05know, fire real fire hose of water
3:07coming in. It's a small boat. I had
3:09water-tight compartments in the boat
3:11that were designed to protect the most
3:12vulnerable ends of the boat. But it
3:15wasn't really designed to stay afloat if
3:17I hold hold the major compartment of the
3:21accommodation.
3:23Um so I knew the boat was pretty doomed
3:26like immediately.
3:28And I lept up and
3:32uh
3:33tried to get loose a gear bag. Um but as
3:37the the water was coming up really fast.
3:38And in the early stages of survival
3:41scenarios, you know, the there's wicked
3:44problems with time compression. It's
3:45really hard to know how quickly things
3:48happen. But the boat stopped almost
3:49immediately. Probably filled with water
3:52within
3:53almost a minute. The bow of the boat was
3:55underwater. Um but because it dove down
3:59a little bit, it also provided a little
4:01bit of an air pocket in the back trapped
4:03in the back, which with the watertight
4:05compartments kept the back of the boat
4:06just above water.
4:08And uh I had rocketed up to the deck. I
4:11thought, well, she's doomed. She's just
4:14going to go straight down.
4:15And uh so I'm on this kind of bucking
4:19bronco of a boat being
4:22tried to be carried overboard with uh
4:24waves and whatnot. And I got my life
4:26raft, uh which I had. And a lot of
4:28people thought I was silly. I had a I
4:30bought a six-person life raft that had
4:32been specially equipped for offshore
4:35stuff. And uh it it it it it it
4:39um
4:40it but it was a six-person raft. And
4:42people would say, well, what if you're
4:43sailing alone or maybe with one other
4:45person, why do you need a six-person
4:46raft? But uh rafts are pretty small. Uh
4:49basically, it's 4 sq ft per person in a
4:52raft. And I had read stories about, you
4:55know, the by the Baileys and the
4:56Robertsons who had been adrift in the
4:58Pacific for
5:00oh,
5:01uh I think it was 119 days and and um
5:0538 days, respectively. And those kinds
5:08of things. So I was pretty prepared with
5:09equipment. And uh but the package
5:12weighed about 100 lb. And it said, uh
5:15"Make sure you
5:17put overboard before inflation." While
5:19trying to stand on this thing getting
5:20washed off. Fortunately for me, uh
5:23overboard was pretty much on board. And
5:26uh so I floated it off to the side. Um
5:29and jumped in. And then the boat, you
5:31know, I it was pretty obvious the boat
5:33was
5:34relatively stable at that point. And I
5:36could get back on board. And I knew what
5:38was on board, all kinds of water and
5:39food and you know, the ditch kit, which
5:42I had to leave behind, which had all
5:43kinds of goodies in it.
5:45So I pulled up on the side of the boat
5:48and got back aboard and dove down and
5:50got some really critical bits of
5:51equipment, a piece of cushion, a
5:54sleeping bag, uh my ditch kit, and uh
5:58uh and then
6:00got back in the raft rather exhausted
6:02and stood by the boat till almost dawn.
6:05Now, during this whole period, I don't
6:07know, all kinds of things go through
6:09your mind. Um
6:11and
6:12that's part of sort of the core story of
6:14adrift really is, you know, we're not
6:16multi we're not single-dimensional
6:18animals, we're multi-dimensional. So,
6:20you know, in my head there were as
6:22you know, uh
6:23kind of action according to my practice
6:26and training in dealing with other
6:28emergencies offshore and that sort of
6:30thing. And then there's a weenie part of
6:31me that's, you know, you're going to
6:33die, you're going to die. And uh kind of
6:35irrational part telling that to shut up.
6:37And even a part of me that was um
6:40frankly uh amused when I got on deck
6:42because I had a movie camera mounted on
6:45the aft part of the uh of the deck. And
6:48uh it it somehow the electronics had
6:51fused together or whatever. And
6:53the the camera was taking this in really
6:56dramatic footage that of course no one
6:58would ever see. So, uh a lot of things
7:00going on in your head at the same time,
7:02but just trying to focus on
7:04you know, being in the zone as we say,
7:06you know, and focus on what I needed to
7:08do.
7:09So, I stood off in the raft. Um
7:12but it was like being in a kind of like
7:13being in an auto accident every few
7:15minutes with, you know, you get a
7:16breaker hitting the raft, which is tied
7:18to a very stable boat in the water now
7:20full of water. And uh
7:23uh so, the raft would get, you know,
7:25like really crunched up. The raft itself
7:28is like
7:29picture it as a couple of big inner
7:30tubes with a thin rubber sheet of of uh
7:34reinforced rubber across the bottom
7:36about 8 in thick. And uh and a little a
7:39kind of a uh a a or a tent stretched
7:42over the top of it and that whole thing
7:44was pretty stiff when it was inflated
7:47but it was like I was being like crushed
7:49in half and you know as the thing was
7:51crushed in
7:52in on me and
7:54water flying in everywhere and whatnot.
7:56I was worried that the raft might come
7:58apart but then a wave hit and there was
8:01relative peace and I looked out and
8:03found myself floating away from the boat
8:05that the line I'd had tied to the boat
8:08it didn't part but what it was tied to
8:10obviously gave way. So there I was
8:13middle of basically middle of the
8:15Atlantic Ocean.
8:16I knew where I relatively where I was
8:19and
8:19where the winds and currents would take
8:21me which would be westward towards the
8:24Caribbean Islands but it was a very long
8:26way away.
8:27>> In the 76 days you were drifting alone
8:31at sea, what was your most hopeless
8:33moment?
8:34>> That would have been
8:38I don't know well it was a long time ago
8:39now. I
8:42would say that probably around the 50th
8:44day.
8:45On the 38th day I carried a survival
8:48manual written written by Dougal
8:50Robertson who had been adrift with his
8:51family in the Pacific for 38 days and he
8:54wrote this incredible book Survive the
8:56Savage Seas.
8:57And to me it was amazing first of all
8:59because because they were super crowded
9:01in their
9:03little raft boat and
9:05yet they were incredibly inventive. Um
9:11in these kind of scenarios I mean it's
9:12very common in in in survival stories
9:15where people as we say you just you stop
9:19you stop asking what is it designed to
9:21do and what can it do in order to solve
9:23problems. So he was like sort of Mr.
9:26Super MacGyver at sea inventing things
9:30and figuring out a way to way to live
9:33and so he wrote this survival manual
9:35that I had and so on the 38th day I had
9:37what I thought was a party and I
9:39actually drank about a half pint of
9:41water I think.
9:42And uh
9:43I thought well this is it I've gone a
9:46lot further than I ever thought I could
9:48even make it to begin with.
9:50And then on the 43rd day I was living
9:53primarily off of dorado also known as
9:55mahi-mahi and you know they're found in
9:58tropical waters around the world.
10:00They're big, they're powerful.
10:02Um
10:03and that school would um
10:06would basically feed me at least most of
10:09my food through through the journey and
10:11they were also
10:12beautiful. They were creatures I honored
10:15um
10:17were to me sort of I don't know
10:20spiritually symbolic um
10:23and
10:26So you know I I
10:29I was fishing originally with a teeny
10:32little spear gun that I just happened to
10:33buy in the Canary Islands before I left
10:36and
10:37um
10:38I wasn't sure what to do with this. I
10:39kept putting it in different places in
10:41this little boat I was sailing and it
10:43was really awkward. I hit my head on it
10:45or something and I said oh well maybe
10:46it'll fit right in my ditch kit and it
10:48just barely made it.
10:50And I'm glad I did.
10:52Um and at first I would shoot it like a
10:55normal spear gun and I would have
10:56problems cuz of the refraction problems
10:58and stuff like that and these fish being
11:00very smart and uh and agile.
11:03And uh
11:04then I as I started catching them one of
11:07the first things that happened is the
11:08power strap of the spear gun disappeared
11:11got pulled off.
11:12So then I had to tie it together and
11:14develop ways of getting the fish close
11:16enough to me where I I might spear them
11:18and so I
11:19I recognized they were
11:22not only my companions
11:24um but also were a danger to me cuz I'm
11:27in a you know fishing with a spear
11:28through a big powerful fish in an
11:30inflated raft and without the raft, I
11:32was a goner.
11:34And uh
11:37I done okay. I caught several fish, and
11:39I can't remember which number this was,
11:41and uh it broke the pulled this spear
11:45off the end of the spear gun, broke the
11:47end of it.
11:49Um the butt end of it, and turn turn
11:51kind of flipped around and ran the spear
11:54into the bottom tube of the raft,
11:57which was a total nightmare.
12:00Um without getting too technical, the
12:02raft loses its shape, so it loses a lot
12:04of buoyancy. So, instead of having like
12:05a foot of freeboard, you end up with a
12:07couple inches, 3 inches, or something.
12:09And open ocean waves, you know, normally
12:11a few feet, stuff like that. So, it's a
12:14lot of water washing in and out of the
12:15raft. It was absolutely nightmare. And
12:17then by this time, I'd had lots of salt
12:19water sores, these open ulcers that open
12:21on the skin.
12:23Um
12:24things like that. So, it was a very
12:25unpleasant time. I couldn't fish
12:26properly. I couldn't produce water
12:28properly, and I could not figure out a
12:30solution to this
12:32problem, which was underwater kind of.
12:35And uh
12:37I would get a temporary fix, and it
12:39would last maybe a couple hours, and
12:41then it get blown out. And I really
12:43couldn't figure it out. And and it just
12:45it took me right to the edge uh where I
12:47thought that would that was really going
12:49to be it. Um
12:51but as
12:54things would have it, I you know, it it
12:56really felt like death was kind of
12:58closing in, and I kind of slapped myself
13:00awake, so to speak, and freaked me out.
13:03And um
13:05so, I went through all my gear, you
13:07know, what do you have left? What can
13:09you What can you do with this thing?
13:11And um just thinking about it a little,
13:14you know, and
13:16I just finally came up with the the
13:18answer was this handle to a fork. I had
13:20a fork in a a utensil to get for some
13:22reason in the ditch kit. It was
13:24stainless steel utensil. So, I could
13:26break that off. I made a pin that I
13:28could drive down through this this patch
13:31that I made, which would really give a
13:33secure
13:34place to uh
13:36uh to lash up and actually the bottom
13:38tube then ended up
13:40holding air better than the bottom than
13:42the top tube um for the rest of the
13:44voyage, but um it took a long time and a
13:48lot of energy and I never really
13:50recovered from that. Um
13:52uh From then on, it entered kind of a
13:54fine an another stage for me, which was
13:57just hanging on. You have re-crisis
13:59within the crisis, and that was that was
14:01my big one. I mean, I had a lot of
14:02little crises, but that was a really big
14:05one that I really didn't think I could
14:07solve. Um
14:09but um I did and that like the the
14:12world, you know, finally
14:15>> Was there ever a sensation of like total
14:18nervous breakdown, mind fracture? Like
14:22can't contain the anxiety within
14:25yourself anymore, or were you too busy
14:27surviving?
14:28>> Oh, no. I mean, the
14:29you know, the the experience
14:32I mean, we all go through ups and downs
14:34in life and survival experiences are
14:37just I don't know on one end of the
14:38spectrum of that. Um
14:41and
14:42uh
14:43like I say, I go through incredible lows
14:46and incredible highs um and they can be
14:48packed right on top of each other, you
14:50know, at one you know, one hour I'm
14:53lying there and I'm feeling like I'm I'm
14:56I really am literally dying. I don't
14:58have any more strength to do this. I
14:59feel my body heat disappearing and you
15:02know, it's horrible. And then all of a
15:04sudden, I you know, I stumble across
15:06this
15:07uh this solution that I should have
15:09figured out, you know, a week beforehand
15:11anyway, but uh
15:13um
15:14when I did, then it would like really
15:17I often refer to the, you know, the Tom
15:20Hanks movie um Cast Away and there's,
15:23you know, he's struggling and struggling
15:24to make fire and he finally makes a fire
15:26and he's dancing around. I, you know,
15:28it's like you you just feel incredible.
15:31Or you see sights and witness things
15:33that nobody else could see except in
15:36that situation. So, there are enormous
15:39highs as well as the enormous lows. And
15:43in the enormous lows, I mean, there were
15:45times where, yeah, I just like totally
15:47freaked out. Cursing the
15:50cursing the ocean and having tantrums
15:52and, you know, and I don't know the
15:55in a in a draft, I I mean, again, it
15:58gets back to this thing of us being
15:59multi-dimensional. You know, I kind of
16:01divvy myself up into a even when I was
16:04in the raft, you know, I was kind of
16:06divvying myself up into a physical and a
16:08rational and an emotional me. And they
16:11all had different competing needs and
16:13desires and um
16:15um
16:17sometimes like the emotional part would
16:19just totally overwhelm the rest and even
16:21the rational said, "Yeah, fine. Do it.
16:23Get over with Get it over with." That
16:25kind of thing. And uh So, really, it was
16:28it was everything, the full spectrum.
16:32>> Was
16:33being adrift for 76 days a psychedelic
16:38and mystical experience for you or was
16:41it more of a pragmatic rational
16:45experience?
16:46>> No, that's a interesting question. Um
16:50I wouldn't say it's a It was a
16:52psychedelic experience.
16:54Um uh definitely a spiritual experience
16:57and I think that's a commonality with
16:59other survivors I've I've spoken with,
17:02too. You know, these are horrible
17:03experiences we have. It's not like we
17:05want to go back and have them again, but
17:07they are also have um
17:10these kind of
17:11irreplaceable precious qualities. Um
17:14and so
17:17um
17:19we don't remember the pain, of course.
17:20I'm looking back at this from many
17:22decades later now. I was 30 years old
17:24when I
17:25I turned 30 in the life raft. Um
17:29but um
17:33you know, there
17:35you learn so much about yourself and
17:36about the world. You can't really can't
17:38replace that. And uh
17:40for me, and I think this has been a
17:42central theme in my life, whether it's
17:44writing um you know, or um
17:48the the bits of art that I've done and
17:50whatnot. Um to me, the real world
17:54is the spiritual world. I mean, I look
17:56around me. I live in the woods, you
17:58know, I've always been comfortable in
17:59kind of isolated environments, uh
18:02wilderness and types of environments and
18:04stuff.
18:05And you go into these things um
18:09for freedom to a certain degree, but it
18:12it's not totally free. You're very
18:14constrained by the reality of the world.
18:16Um if you're
18:18ashore, you're constrained by by people,
18:21mostly.
18:22Uh but uh
18:24in these wilderness environments, you're
18:26not totally free there, either. Um but
18:29it's a it's a different relationship
18:30with the real world, and there are
18:32things about it that uh you know, things
18:35are exactly what they are. It doesn't
18:37matter what you want them to be. I mean,
18:38if I'm in the life raft, I want it to be
18:40one thing, and it's not that, you know,
18:42I mean, that's that's kind of denial.
18:45And so, you're kind of forced to come to
18:47grips with reality, and to me, that's a
18:50kind of a spiritual thing as well.
18:54>> Did you feel stranded the whole time, or
18:58did you ever feel at home while you were
19:02>> Oh, a bit of both.
19:03You know, um I I I knew Yeah, I was
19:06technically adrift and starving and
19:09dehydrated, and you know, it wasn't
19:11going to have a happy end if I was there
19:13too long.
19:14Um
19:16So, it's not at home that way and it's a
19:18taut constant tension. Uh you can't let
19:21your guard down and everything to you
19:22every little detail of everything you do
19:25can spell the difference between your
19:26life and your death. So, it's really
19:28intense.
19:30But, at the same time it is a kind a
19:32kind of home. Uh I remember Maurice uh
19:36uh or yeah, Maurice Bailey um
19:39when they you know, finally a fishing
19:42boat in the Pacific was coming by and
19:44sighted them and was going to save them
19:46and he basically mused about, you know,
19:48whether there's a certain reticence to
19:50give up this he's like a king of his
19:52little domain. And in my case, it's
19:55funny you mentioned rubber ducky because
19:56actually I named my raft rubber ducky
19:58four and had some other inflatables
20:00before. So, I was riding rubber ducky
20:02four
20:03and uh
20:04uh across the Atlantic and uh
20:08I don't know who is
20:10I I considered like all the fish that
20:12had gathered around this whole
20:13environment was kind of like my little
20:15town. I considered myself like the the
20:18mayor of duckyville as I called it. And
20:20these were all my little doggies and my
20:22little citizens who I would one of whom
20:24I would ruthlessly murder every
20:27every four or five or week days or a
20:30week or so, you know. Um
20:32So, there is that part of it. And, you
20:34know,
20:35as I said, I always felt
20:38kind of at home in wilderness
20:40environments
20:41um themselves. And I like traveling like
20:44that. I like traveling lightly.
20:46So, um
20:48um
20:50I don't know. In that in that way it is
20:51kind of home, too.
20:54>> Mhm.
20:55And the way that you drank water is you
20:57had like an evaporation device? Is that
21:01how you how you would convert the
21:02salinated water into water?
21:04>> um a few actually
21:06um that were packed in two packed in the
21:09raft, one I carried in my ditch kit.
21:11Solar stills, which are these like
21:12balloons, these big balloons.
21:15I don't know big, they're
21:17what, probably
21:19maybe 18 in maybe a little bit less than
21:21that in diameter.
21:23And they were
21:25they were made during the Second World
21:26War
21:27for down pilots to hopefully distill
21:29fresh water from salt water. They're
21:32like little little environments here.
21:34You drip you pour some sea water at the
21:36top, it drips down through the little
21:38valve onto a black cloth suspended
21:40inside this balloon.
21:42And that gets wet and the sun comes out
21:45and evaporates and the condensation
21:48collects on the inside of the balloon
21:50and rains down into a little collection
21:52bag, but
21:53it all sounds simple, but as far as I
21:56know, I'm the only person to have ever
21:57gotten one to work in the real
21:58environment.
21:59They had a lot of challenges and I had
22:02to figure out what was going on with
22:04them. I ended up cutting one up to kind
22:06of understand it as best I could and the
22:09other two lasted they would produce
22:11about I don't know pint and a
22:14pint pint and a quarter maybe on a
22:16really good day two pints, but they
22:17didn't produce that much every day. So,
22:19probably on average just over a pint a
22:21day, pint and a quarter. I didn't have
22:23much rains, but as I got further west
22:26the rain was more
22:29a little bit more occasional and I could
22:32catch it. So, I was improving those
22:34systems as I went along because the
22:36solar stills had definitive life spans
22:39of about oh
22:41little less than a month actually, I
22:43think, but they saved my life.
22:46We have much better systems today,
22:47reverse osmosis pumps and things like
22:49that.
22:51>> Did you
22:53drink your own pee?
22:55on the on the boat or did you think what
22:56like what was your relationship
22:58>> Well, well, your relationship to water
23:00is really critical. And
23:03but
23:04basically
23:06I can't remember now actually. I I may
23:09have taken a sip at one point, but I I
23:10knew it wasn't a good idea. In fact,
23:12it's definitely not a good idea. Because
23:15you know, you're
23:17you're flushing out all the stuff
23:18including lots of salts from your
23:20system. So it doesn't help. It's like
23:22drinking seawater. And that was getting
23:24to be a concern towards the end because
23:26my um
23:28my sodium levels in my body were quite
23:30high and my potassium was low.
23:32And
23:34uh yeah
23:34things that were felt that tasted quite
23:37salty at the beginning weren't tasting
23:39so salty at the end. So you know, it
23:41like with water fresh water is like,
23:43well, if it's got you know, a few drops
23:45of seawater in it, fine. But if it's got
23:47a lot, you don't really want to be
23:49drinking it. But um
23:51um
23:53So that that was a concern, but um
23:56I had just enough water for me
23:58basically. I had just enough of
23:59everything for me.
24:01>> Did you feel confident in your ability
24:05to hydrate yourself and feed yourself or
24:08did you feel like there was an
24:09inevitable demise that you were
24:10dwindling down to like you yourself were
24:13going to evaporate?
24:14>> Uh it was a slow decline basically. Um
24:18no, I knew I didn't have enough I knew I
24:20didn't have enough of you know, I really
24:24practically speaking, I probably
24:25couldn't get enough nourishment. So
24:27eventually I would starve and the
24:31dehydration was just kind of on the edge
24:34edge of things. So No, I I was never
24:37very confident that it was going to
24:38happen. In fact,
24:40I always, you know, as sailors say, you
24:42know, you plan for the worst and let the
24:43best take care of itself. So I was
24:46I was very conscious of anytime I had
24:49water that I didn't absolutely
24:52require, I would store it as best I
24:55could. I'd make little bottles of, you
24:58know, from tubing that I had or, you
25:00know, stuff like that like that. And so,
25:03by the end of the voyage, I think I had
25:04about eight pints of water saved
25:07um in which I would keep as much as as
25:10long as possible.
25:12>> Wow. And you were already catching fish
25:15because you were on your boat for the
25:16last year. So, was catching your first
25:19fish from the life raft like an
25:20incredible glorious surprise or had you
25:23already been accustomed to catching
25:24fish?
25:25>> Oh, I was actually I'm not that great a
25:26fisherman and I didn't really fish that
25:29much from Napoleon Solo, the
25:31the boat I lost. Um
25:34No, I was focused on on on other things
25:37than fishing before that. And but um
25:40I mean, when I caught a fish, it was
25:42just unbelievably glorious. I mean, the
25:44first fish I caught actually was a
25:45little trigger fish. They're about a a
25:47foot foot long or something. They kind
25:48of I call them butlers or clowns. Um
25:52They uh
25:54they would flit around the raft and
25:57prove to be a little bit easier to
25:58catch. I mean, at least I got my first
26:00one. But when it was really the the
26:02dorado, the first dorado that I caught
26:04was like a sort of a game changer. Um
26:07but it also, you know, as I said, I I
26:11learned pretty quickly that these are
26:13these are really fast and agile and
26:16strong. And so, I had to take great care
26:18and pre- prepare the raft but as best I
26:21could and develop a whole, you know,
26:22kind of a movement in order to get them
26:24into the raft without causing damage and
26:26all that kind of stuff. So, um
26:29but it was it really was the game
26:31changer. As I said, it you know, I think
26:33it
26:34was in the log and in a drift. You know,
26:36it's like being in a prison cell and
26:38somebody throws you in a, you know, a
26:3910-lb filet mignon every week or
26:42something.
26:44Um so, that that was incredible.
26:47>> And you can't cook you can't cook the
26:49fish.
26:49>> No, I
26:50um and actually it's an advantage to eat
26:52it fresh eat especially the proteins
26:55fresh because they take a lot of
26:57moisture in order to digest.
27:00And
27:02there's a lot of moisture in the fish.
27:04So I would cut them up and I would eat
27:08things like well eventually I basically
27:10eat every
27:12virtually every part of the fish except
27:14the bones and I found that the stomachs
27:16were like eating little tires or
27:18something so they didn't really do much
27:21for me but you know contents of the
27:22stomach and the eyes and little
27:25discs between the vertebrae and all that
27:27stuff and at the end of the voyage
27:29that's what I actually prized. I learned
27:30a lot about how your body seems to know
27:32more or less what it needed. It really
27:34needed the fats and the
27:36and the vitamins and stuff in the in the
27:38organ meats and the moisture from eyes
27:40and and the discs.
27:42Um
27:44So but I did have extra fish. I didn't
27:46need it all at once so I would strip
27:48them up and part of the part half of the
27:50raft was um
27:52I called it the butcher shop. I cut them
27:54in these little strips and put holes in
27:55them and it was dry very dry as I know I
27:57noted before so they actually dried in
28:00the sun into like little hardtack things
28:02if I left them up there long enough.
28:05>> So you created like a little town. You
28:09had the butcher shop and you had like
28:10the farm and you had you kind of created
28:13a
28:14a world.
28:15>> Yeah.
28:16>> Yeah basically and I think we do that I
28:18mean kind of normally you know.
28:20Um
28:22It becomes your life.
28:24And you got like these little fantasies
28:26right? Like I would make myself dinners.
28:28Did you Now the dinner's all fish but
28:30you know they'd be different parts that
28:32would be you know oh well this is you
28:34know this is dessert over here that you
28:35know the liver the fresh fish liver is
28:37dessert and you know for breakfast I
28:39would you know take the the the bones
28:42that still had little bits of meat that
28:44was like bacon to me and that sort of
28:46thing So, yeah, to reach fantasy life, I
28:48guess.
28:50>> How elaborate did the fantasies become
28:53when you were 76 days out in the middle
28:56of the Atlantic Ocean? What was the most
28:58elaborate fantasy moments you
28:59>> Oh, they were you know, there's things
29:01about
29:02you know, you sit back and
29:05wish for things. At the big
29:08I thought I found it interesting that
29:09every time I went to sleep I dreamt of
29:12like food and drink. And it was always
29:13the stuff that my body really needed. It
29:15was like, you know, breads and fruits
29:17and juices and all this other stuff.
29:20I never drank I never dreamt of like
29:22sitting down to a steak or a big piece
29:25of fish. And uh
29:29early on in the voyage those those kind
29:31of dreams sometimes they you know, in a
29:33way they take you away from it.
29:36But they're also kind of horrible
29:38reminders. So, at first I kind of um
29:42almost regretted those kind those kinds
29:44of dreams or fantasies. And but as time
29:47went on I got more fond of them. So,
29:50and uh
29:51uh especially for things about food. I
29:54thought a lot a lot about food and what
29:56would happen after you know, once I got
29:58ashore, not if I got ashore, but once I
30:00got ashore, there'd be that. I would
30:03think about you know, stuff I wanted to
30:05do. Um mistakes I had made in life that
30:08I would like to be
30:10if not correct at least adjust to and
30:14those sorts of things.
30:16>> Did you have any regrets while you're on
30:18the
30:19>> Oh, yeah, tons. Especially during that
30:20first period, that recoil period. It's
30:22like, oh, I've screwed up everything.
30:24I've been terrible with relationships.
30:26I've been
30:28was never good with money. I was
30:31um you know, I I was a young guy and
30:35uh had a lot of I don't know, spirit, I
30:38guess. And uh but I'd never really
30:40accomplished that much. Uh it seemed
30:42pretty It seemed like a pretty empty
30:44life at that time. Um
30:47So, um that also gave impetus to keep,
30:51you know, hanging there and
30:53keep going, you know,
30:54uh create a new purpose. And that's also
30:57common alley I found amongst uh
30:59survivors is that,
31:02you know,
31:04these experiences got give us a
31:05different sense of purpose.
31:09>> Did it ever feel easier to end your life
31:12while you're on the raft? Or was there
31:13always a sensation of of a desire to
31:16keep going?
31:16>> Uh no, I never really contemplated
31:19ending things. I thought
31:22there's a pretty good chance that they'd
31:23be ended for me anyway, but no, I I I I
31:26don't know. For me, it was always
31:29preferable to struggle on.
31:31Um
31:32there was enough
31:34happening
31:36on the in sort of yin yang
31:39view of the whole experience. There was
31:41enough positive happening that I could
31:43see,
31:45um like I say, awakenings, just just
31:47being able to see stuff that, you know,
31:49like the these fish. One thing that
31:52happened early on is, you know, they
31:54they started kind of rounding the raft
31:56and then I was shooting at them with a
31:57spear gun and within about 24 hours,
31:59they knew exactly what the range of that
32:01spear gun was. But they'd come up and
32:02they'd kind of
32:04uh
32:05uh bushwhack me from behind and I used
32:08that later on in order to lure them in
32:11and get close to the spear gun, but you
32:13know, they knew I was dangerous. Um
32:16a lot of these individual individuals
32:19hung around, you know, I could recognize
32:20them well, some easily. Oh, that's the
32:22one I tried to catch by line. It's got a
32:24string out of his mouth. That's one I
32:26hit that one there. I can see the scar.
32:28That one is
32:29got all these scars from this other
32:31encounter with something and and all of
32:34that and uh uh
32:36so I'd see them all the time. They knew
32:38I was dangerous, but um by the end of
32:41the voyage there were times where I
32:43could like I was trying to stay cool
32:44then by the by the afternoon what I call
32:47the afternoon bake off.
32:48And I'd be sweeping my arm through the
32:51the ocean and splashing myself with
32:53seawater and they'd come by and more
32:56than once they you know I I reached I
32:58they'd actually allowed me to touch them
33:00and I can't tell you that that was just
33:02like
33:04Oh my god.
33:06I don't know. It was So you have these
33:08experiences or just seeing seeing the
33:11skies incredible skies and
33:13um
33:16I don't know if they're like I say you
33:17get you get a lot of positives out of it
33:20even if you are feeling like your your
33:23physical part is dying and and being
33:26kind of horrible.
33:28Um
33:29So it's a it's a balance it's a balance
33:31of things.
33:33>> What was the depth of loneliness like
33:37while you were out at sea and did you
33:40begin to personify
33:43nature and fish and things on the raft?
33:45Like did you have like Wilson moments
33:48from Castaway where you're not lonely at
33:50all cuz you've created this new world
33:52for yourself. What was the like the
33:53texture of loneliness like?
33:56>> Well I was pretty yeah I was pretty
33:59lonely. I you know even though I would
34:01especially especially especially as a
34:04youth I was a pretty introverted kid and
34:07you know I I'd say you know I grew up
34:10being pretty pretty good with small
34:11groups and you know running around in
34:13the mountains or sailing and
34:15um
34:17but
34:18there's I'd also done other you know
34:21short-handed sailing offshore and
34:23single-handing and um
34:26it's not my favorite thing to do to be
34:28alone, but I seem to be okay with it. Um
34:33But I still it was like especially
34:36after the throughout that recoil period
34:39and whatnot, you know, I just realized
34:41now I got to I got to accept my and then
34:43and through the voyage actually sort of
34:44an awakening and then, you know,
34:46it would be nice to be a sea creature.
34:48I'd like to be one of these dorado, but
34:50I'm not. I'm a very much a person and
34:53this is not my domain. This is the
34:55world's greatest desert among other
34:57things.
34:58And uh so I don't
35:01I'm a visitor here, but I I'm a person
35:04and I really need to go back and do
35:06better with
35:07people even though people are
35:09problematic.
35:11So is the ocean. So
35:14um
35:15uh
35:16I was I was lonely in that way, but it's
35:18funny you you cuz you talk about Wilson
35:20and
35:22actually I worked on this film Life of
35:23Pi and the prop master there had been
35:25the prop master in that film and he
35:27actually has one of the original
35:29Wilsons. I'm incredibly jealous of that
35:32or envious of it. Um
35:34because to me that's that's another
35:38the core part of a lot part of a lot of
35:40stories is we all have our Wilsons. My
35:43Wilson was was I guess the dorado really
35:47in mass. Um they were my companions and
35:52like all companions they had
35:55their dangers and their benefits and
35:58really they are the stars of the show
35:59because they
36:00they fed me, they nourished me, they
36:03were my companions, they were spiritual
36:05creatures to me, they almost killed me,
36:08and in the end they brought my salvation
36:09because of the
36:11you know, being part of that
36:12environment.
36:14>> What kind of conversations did you have
36:16with the fish while you were
36:19>> Oh, I don't know, silly little things.
36:21One One of
36:24A good A good friend of mine says his
36:26favorite part is like I I I asked one to
36:29marry me and and and and you know, even
36:33if she's attracted or something that you
36:35know, her parents object, I'm not
36:37colorful enough for her for them and
36:40you know, things like that.
36:44It wasn't like I had to talk to them
36:46exactly. They were just an essential
36:48part of that whole world. Any more than
36:51like in the Life of Pi, right? They had
36:53the he has the tiger in the Life of Pi.
36:55He you know, this is a boy on a on a
36:57life boat with a tiger, you know, that's
37:00he doesn't have to talk to the I mean, I
37:02guess he does talk to the tiger in the
37:03film and stuff like that, but but it's
37:06not really necessary.
37:09>> Did you have any peak moments of quote
37:14on quote awakening while you were on the
37:16raft?
37:18>> Well, I kind of talked about
37:21a number of them really.
37:23Um
37:26I don't know, every day was an
37:27awakening.
37:28Um
37:31Like I say, I mean a lot of things
37:32weren't like
37:34I don't know, there wasn't like
37:35an epic moment exactly.
37:39Unless you count things like you know,
37:40fixing the bottom tube of the raft and
37:42that
37:43you know, being from probably the lowest
37:45point in the voyage to the one of the
37:47highest points of the voyage.
37:50Um
37:51that sort of thing.
37:53Um
37:54More or less it was amusing, a long-term
37:57musing I would say about my life and my
38:00place in it.
38:03>> What type of
38:04spiritual information do you think you
38:08could have
38:09gathered from your experience of being
38:12adrift at sea for 76 days that
38:15a kind of new age spiritual person
38:19is perhaps striving to gather or suggest
38:22suggestive to be striving to gathering.
38:24Like is there anything that you think
38:25that you got from that experience that
38:28you could just
38:29never get from
38:32I don't know.
38:33Meditating for example or do you think
38:34you can get this kind of arrive in the
38:36same place?
38:37>> I think I think that you can arrive at
38:39the same place no matter who you are
38:41what your life
38:43um
38:44is like. Um
38:46uh
38:48Doesn't mean I mean we all come to
38:51wherever we are and I'm sure that that's
38:53a very unique to every individual.
38:55Um I was you know I grew up
38:58thinking a lot about concepts I guess.
39:02Wasn't very good at memorizing things
39:04but I was pretty good with concepts. And
39:06um
39:08when I was at I at university I studied
39:10psychology and philosophy and so that
39:12gave me a
39:13I was always interested in
39:17I don't know a wide range of issues from
39:19you know the nature of knowledge to you
39:22know spirituality and religions and
39:24stuff like that. So I arrive at my own
39:27and I think that that actually comes out
39:28in the drift I hope um
39:30um
39:32but it's open you know people like
39:35people who read a drift um or talk to me
39:38about it you know they
39:40many of them relate to it in their own
39:42way and in accordance to their own
39:44life's path but you know to me I'm kind
39:47of a mix of um
39:49uh
39:50the accidents of my life mixed with my
39:53predilections whether they be uh kind of
39:56genetic or or or otherwise. And um so we
40:00all stumble through life to a certain
40:01degree and try to find our way and to I
40:05don't know whatever we're all looking
40:06for. Um
40:08for me I'm kind of I'm pretty satisfied
40:10with um
40:13with reality writ large but I also
40:15recognize that it prevent that it
40:17presents a lot of a lot of challenges
40:19and heartache and all those things is
40:21just a part of it. And I guess overall
40:25one of the biggest things for me not
40:28just from my own experience but talking
40:30to lots of other people
40:32is that I I have met all kinds of people
40:37who have gone through the most
40:37incredible things in their life.
40:40And
40:41those experiences what they are and it
40:43always fascinates me how two people can
40:46kind of go through almost exactly the
40:47same thing but they come away with
40:50really different views and heads. I mean
40:53what for one person
40:55a walk in the park, you know, an
40:56agoraphobic person a walk in the park
40:58can be, you know, the hugest challenge
41:00and for somebody else it's just a walk
41:02in the park.
41:03That kind of thing. So that kind of
41:05fascinates me but we all have to find
41:07our own path
41:09and I think you could find it from, you
41:11know,
41:12contemplating your own navel or going
41:14out and mountain climbing or whatever.
41:16For me it's important in my life to be
41:19connected to the natural world which I
41:22think we've
41:24generally speaking society has become
41:26more and more isolated from.
41:29>> What was your relationship to comfort
41:32and pain while you were on the life raft
41:35for 76 days? What's that that I didn't
41:37know that salt sore was a thing but
41:40apparently your body is riddled with
41:41salt sores I imagine sunburn. Like what
41:44was your physical experience?
41:45>> I I've been out long enough in the sun
41:47that sunburn wasn't a real issue and I
41:49unlike now I had hair days actually
41:52pretty heavy hair days. Um
41:55so I was pretty well shut in and there
41:56was a tent over the raft so I could get
41:58out of the sun but heat was a heat was
42:00an issue. Heat was a real issue.
42:02Um so on the edges of like heat
42:04exhaustion quite a lot towards the
42:07second half of the voyage.
42:08Um
42:10the
42:11the the yeah the I mean there were if
42:13you get a cut, you know, it stays wet in
42:15salt water a long time. There'd be cuts
42:17that I'd had and stuff like that that
42:18would, you know, wouldn't heal for over
42:20a month and that that kind of thing, but
42:22they were pretty minor. The salt water
42:23sores were a bit of a plague because
42:26these if you're sitting in a salt
42:28saturated
42:29water environment,
42:31um
42:33they develop your your body starts
42:36developing these little blisters, like
42:38almost like little pimples in different
42:40places, especially where you sit or you
42:42know, your arms are against your body
42:44and stuff like that. And eventually
42:46these open up and they form skin ulcers,
42:49like much like a cold sore or a canker
42:52sore in your mouth.
42:54And these would multiply, so I had
42:55hundreds of them. And there's all been
42:58in the drift about, you know, becoming a
43:00connoisseur of pain.
43:02Um
43:03um
43:04So that was a part of it, for sure. And
43:06especially towards the end of the
43:07voyage, you know, I'm in a salt
43:08saturated environment. It's really been
43:10being ground into these sores all the
43:12time, so it's certainly not pleasant,
43:14but um
43:16and at times it would take me to the
43:17edge of tears, but
43:19I I think one thing that helped me was
43:24not only having experience in that
43:25environment specifically and dealing
43:28with emergencies in isolated
43:29environments with limited resources and
43:31those practical kind of things, but I
43:34was worldly enough to
43:36have seen people who live in, you know,
43:38really dire straits for their entire
43:40lives. So
43:41um
43:42those those kind of people
43:45always kept me kind of a silent company.
43:48You know, when I wanted to break down or
43:50did break down or whatever, you know,
43:51after a while it's like, you know, buck
43:53up, you know, things things could be
43:54worse.
43:57>> What does that mean to be a connoisseur
43:59of pain? You consider yourself a
44:01connoisseur of pain. What does that
44:02mean?
44:03>> Um because
44:05I don't know. I've
44:06Like I said, I'm in my 70s now and I've
44:08been through a number of experiences
44:10including for 16 years having some
44:13pretty painful experiences physically.
44:17And you know, every pain has its own
44:19quality.
44:21And where is it and how is it, you know?
44:23And for me actually it's been maybe this
44:26was the beginning of that is just like
44:28concentrating on it and kind of
44:32You know, is this a stinging pain? Is
44:33that a burning pain? You know, is it
44:35compared to yesterday? You know,
44:38is it a is it a is it a deep ache? Is
44:40you know, and what does that pain tell
44:42you? You know, is that oh, that's just a
44:44saltwater sore. There's nothing to worry
44:45about. Oh, that's a new ache in my leg.
44:47Maybe I should worry about that. That
44:49that kind of thing. So you I don't know.
44:52It has its own language to me.
44:54>> What could you teach someone that hasn't
44:56experienced something like being
44:58stranded out at sea for a really long
45:00time about their relationship to stress
45:03and how to manage their relationship
45:05stress maybe
45:06better.
45:08>> Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure I can
45:10teach anybody anything really.
45:12Um
45:13I just have my experiences.
45:17You know, I have my experiences. I can
45:18relate them and people can relate to
45:20them or or not and and I'm sure my way
45:23of dealing with things is probably not
45:24preferred by a lot of people. Um
45:29I'm not I'm not sure how to how to
45:31answer that exactly. Um
45:35There's so many elements
45:37in a practical sense, you know, taking
45:39things one step at a time.
45:42Um
45:43Don't hurry if you don't need to.
45:46Be really careful about prioritizing.
45:49Um separate needs from wants.
45:53You know, all kinds of things like that.
45:55Um
45:58And be
45:59be be prepared for as best you can for
46:03you know I I always say this thing about
46:05me you know Murphy's Law where you know
46:06even the thing you know everything that
46:08can go wrong will go wrong.
46:10And
46:11my my maybe you can call it Callahan's
46:13Law is that even the things that can't
46:15possibly go wrong will find a way of
46:17going wrong at sea.
46:19So um
46:21you kind of have to
46:23have to do that the preparation
46:25actually. I mean
46:27you know there's a lot about that we've
46:28talked about about you know once you're
46:30in it but for me I was very fortunate I
46:33had a really good mentor as a
46:35as a young man
46:37um
46:38uh sailing mentor
46:40um
46:41which helped a lot I just the path I
46:44took you know into doing offshore trips
46:46and like I say it's an isolated
46:48environment with limited resources and
46:50you learn to deal with problems a lot
46:52because they crop up a lot. So um all
46:54those things add into the preparation
46:57for the experience. I'm not the kind of
46:59guy who would just like not have any
47:01sailing experience go down to the harbor
47:03and get on the first boat I see and sail
47:05it across the ocean. I'm I'm I'm too
47:07dull-witted for that. I need to take
47:09things step at a time.
47:12>> How did you manage the the pain? How did
47:15you manage the the sores from the salt
47:18and such? Did you just have to deal with
47:19it or is there anything like remedies
47:22from fish oil or something or
47:23>> No I just I just accepted it. Um yeah
47:26besides
47:27you know rationing the food and the
47:28water I had to ration everything and
47:30part of that was I had a a little
47:32medical kit you know first aid kit.
47:35But I was very reticent to use anything
47:37in it because I didn't know you know
47:40when are you going to get really injured
47:41and really need this stuff? So I didn't
47:44use it hardly at all until the very end
47:47when I made myself a little diaper to be
47:51more stylish coming ashore.
47:55>> Why did you make yourself a Why did you
47:56make yourself a diaper?
47:57>> Well, the only thing I had to wear was a
47:58t-shirt, which was pretty rotten by the
48:01end of it. Um
48:02and you know, as I came up to the
48:05islands, you know, the the Caribbean
48:07islands where I was I you know, it was
48:08about 60 mi south of where I was
48:10initially headed, which actually was
48:12good news for me. I had kept trying to
48:14guide my way south, so that was super
48:16news.
48:17And uh so these, you know, your local
48:19fishermen come up. Again, because of the
48:21the dorado, they're the stars of the
48:23show, you know, they're hovering around
48:25the raft and they feed on flying fish,
48:27and so do frigate birds, and frigate
48:29birds have been hovering over the raft
48:30for days, and local fishermen, being
48:32bright guys, come out and they see signs
48:34of fish, and they came out and they
48:35found me.
48:37Um so there I was in my little t-shirt,
48:40you know, and they're going to save me,
48:42so I I so I I thought I would be,
48:46you know, modest and made myself a
48:48little diaper for when I came ashore.
48:52>> Did you have a shift in your
48:57of God while you were out at sea?
49:00>> Not really.
49:01I I I don't know it I don't Like I said,
49:04I you know, I was a philosophy student.
49:05I'd thought a lot about spirituality and
49:07stuff way before I went to sea, and I've
49:10always been kind of comfortable with
49:11that. Um
49:13uh with my views towards that. I mean,
49:16to me,
49:18God was there, everywhere around me. I
49:19mean, really, you know, to me. So,
49:22um I don't know what how could I
49:25describe I I've described myself as a
49:27skeptical pragmatist. I've described
49:29myself as uh a scientific mystic. I
49:32think in terms of sort of cosmology and
49:35stuff, that best describes it.
49:39>> Were you ever mad at God during the
49:42time? Or like, was there any ever
49:44sensation of like, how could you do this
49:48to me? Or how could
49:50I do this to me? Or how could like what
49:53was
49:54>> Well, that emotional
49:55>> Were you angry?
49:56>> emotional part of me it would get it
49:58would get angry and frustrated and stuff
50:00like you know, the raft every way if it
50:02was really bad weather sometimes the
50:04raft would almost flip over and scoop up
50:06all this water and then I bail it out
50:08and I'm you're trying to not lose
50:10equipment and stuff at the same time
50:11trying not to
50:13make sure make sure your fish
50:15your fish sticks don't get ruined and
50:17you know, it's just a
50:19a really kind of a nightmarish scenario
50:21for hours on end and there would be
50:23times where that emotional part of me
50:25would have a
50:26you know, a meltdown and curse and swear
50:29at the ocean and and that kind of thing
50:31even though the
50:32the more rational parts of me were like
50:35you know,
50:37that's being silly.
50:38But
50:40yeah, but it feels okay. I you know, I
50:41need to do this right now.
50:43So so there was that level of me that
50:46could get angry at at things but I I
50:49know I didn't really blame God. If
50:51anything I blame myself more than
50:54anything else.
50:56>> Would you would you cry a lot or
50:59>> Not a lot.
50:59>> while you're out at sea?
51:01>> No, not a lot but
51:02probably a couple of times anyway. I had
51:05real kind of sobby breakdowns for you
51:08know, 10 minutes
51:10and then kind of
51:12get on with it.
51:13>> Thank you very much for answering all
51:15these questions. I've never asked
51:16questions like this before but it's
51:18incredibly interesting to
51:20How would you manage your emotions
51:22during the experience or was it just
51:24kind of stay focused on what you're
51:26doing and emotions just manage
51:27themselves? Did you meditate? Did you do
51:29breath work? Did you exercise? Did you
51:34do theatrical interpretive expressing
51:38out emotions? Like how do you manage
51:39emotions?
51:41>> Very stressful experience.
51:43I'm not sure as I managed them exactly.
51:47Again, you know, there's this kind of
51:49core
51:50um
51:51themes that run through Adrift. One of
51:53them being about, you know, this
51:55physical and rational and emotional
51:58parts of me. And they're all I mean I
52:00they they break out in little arguments
52:02amongst themselves.
52:04Uh you know, about like should I eat
52:05this fish? And the emotional part's
52:07like, "No, no, no, you don't want to eat
52:08the fish." I mean, they're just
52:10incredible and you know,
52:13um
52:14but the physical part wants to eat
52:16everything it can and then the rational
52:17part comes in and says, "Well, you know,
52:19yeah, you got a fish, you got to live,
52:21so it's part of nature, it's part of
52:23what you have to do whether you like it
52:25or not." And
52:27uh
52:28so but it just depends on the moment. Um
52:32I'm not a perfect human being and
52:34different parts of me would take more
52:36sway at sometimes than others depending
52:39on
52:40again, the accidents of experience and
52:43you know, what's actually happening
52:45around me.
52:47>> Did you ever notice sexual desire when
52:51you were on the raft for 76 days? Like
52:53did you wake up with a hard-on? Like
52:55what was what was what was that aspect
52:57of yourself like?
52:59>> No, unfortunately. I I wish I had a
53:01colorful story to tell you there but I I
53:03unfortunately
53:04>> Really?
53:04>> I I don't.
53:07You know,
53:08sha- shagging shagging the mermaids or
53:10something. I mean, there could have been
53:12something there but
53:13um no, unfortunately. In fact, it was
53:15funny you know, when I when I got to the
53:17other side and I was kind of yato
53:20stopping as we call it or
53:22you know, hitchhiking on boats back up
53:23towards the States and there was a a big
53:26catch Danish catch that gave me a ride
53:29um that I'd seen on the other side of
53:31the pond on Napoleon Solo a few times.
53:34And uh so they were willing to take me
53:36on board even though I was pretty
53:38useless crew at that point. And uh
53:40the
53:41the the wife of the skipper, she was a
53:44psychologist and she was really terribly
53:46interested in this
53:48this issue. And uh, uh, so she asked she
53:51was the first person to really ask me
53:53about I said I boy I wish, you know, I I
53:55wish it it was something really dramatic
53:57to tell you but basically your body
54:00shuts down everything it doesn't need.
54:02Um, at least in my case. It was like
54:04nope, that's the end of the line, you
54:07know, that is the least thing that you
54:10need to be spending on. God, you know,
54:11I'm not saying this, you know,
54:13psychologically it's just what happens
54:15physically. It's one of those like I
54:17like I said, you know, dreaming about
54:19the foods that um,
54:21I you know, that I always needed uh, the
54:24kinds of foods that I needed things like
54:26that. Um,
54:28the body the way I you know, my upper
54:30body strength remained pretty good while
54:32my you know, my legs I wasn't using that
54:34much, you know, I really atrophied. Uh,
54:37things like that which is kind of
54:39you you were talking asking about you
54:41know, little epiphanies and stuff. That
54:43was a that was an epiphany of the voyage
54:44was
54:45how
54:48how our physical selves control our
54:51mental selves
54:53as much as our mental selves control our
54:55physical selves. So like whether it's
54:57dealing with pain or any of these other
54:58things is to me it's very much a two-way
55:01street. And uh, you got to be aware of
55:03that and and manage it as best as best
55:06you can.
55:07>> How would you use your mental self to
55:10control your physical self and how would
55:13you use your physical self to control
55:15your mental self while you're out at
55:16sea?
55:17>> Well, my my my physical self was telling
55:19me what it needed which was it it was
55:21pretty it was kind of a dollar, you
55:23know, it's real real kind of jock me and
55:26that's it's like I want food.
55:28I want food all the time. I want water.
55:30I want water all the time.
55:32Um, all the stuff it needs and making
55:34these adjustments in terms of fantasies
55:36or whatever and how that
55:38in subtle ways kind of blends into my
55:41emotional stuff and fantasies or
55:43whatever it is.
55:45But, um
55:47my rational self, you know, I always
55:49looked at writing is a a way like a
55:52sounding board, a way of kind of
55:54stepping away from myself. And that was
55:55really important when people ask, you
55:57know, well, what were the
55:59um you know, the most essential bits of
56:02gear and stuff that saved your life.
56:03Obviously, the life raft, solar still,
56:06spear gun.
56:08Um
56:09lots of little bits and pieces here and
56:12there that you wouldn't think were
56:13important, you know, cod line, you know,
56:15things like that which solved so many
56:17issues and you can't even find anymore.
56:20Um
56:22things like that, but I I was able to
56:25amongst my most prized possessions was a
56:27little log that I kept. I had these
56:28little 3 by 5 notepads and pencils.
56:32Um
56:33And my my favorite inventions of
56:35humankind are pen pencils pit you know,
56:38pencils, knives, and line. And all I was
56:41in a world totally dependent on all of
56:43them. And the keeping a log, not only
56:46practical stuff, keeping navigation
56:48notes and stuff. Again, normalizing as
56:50much of life as I could was really
56:52important. You know, keeping routines,
56:54any new routines, getting up,
56:56navigating, you know,
56:58dealing with the priorities of repairs
57:02and you know, those sorts of things.
57:03Normal shipboard routine, if you will,
57:05or even if it's in a really humble
57:08little craft. Um and keeping a log where
57:12I could not only talk about the you
57:14know, talk to myself about these
57:16practical things, but also reflect upon
57:19what's going on in the world around me
57:21and wow, wasn't that amazing and I'm so
57:23devastated by this and and
57:27um
57:27you know, whatever else is happening.
57:29It's it was a really important tool for
57:31me.
57:33>> Did you experience moments of ecstasis
57:37while you were
57:39at sea?
57:40>> Mhm, I'm not sure exactly what you mean
57:43by stasis, but
57:46if
57:47you think things are like steady state
57:49>> Ecstasis, ecstatic.
57:50>> Oh, ecstatic?
57:52>> No, no, no, no, no, no, not stasis, not
57:54stasis. Ec- ec- ecstasis. Yeah, the
57:57ecstasis moments of
57:59>> Yeah, I think
58:00>> things are so that's so good. I feel so
58:02I'm transcending my transcended my body,
58:04I've transcended my mind, like I'm in
58:06just this like ethereal state of love
58:08and light and you know, all the things.
58:10>> Mhm, not quite in that way. No.
58:14Um
58:15No.
58:17No, there was always a part of me and I
58:19I think it's
58:22To to me the experience overall, it was
58:24too tense for that and I couldn't let
58:26the tension down until the very end.
58:28Until I was actually in the Yeah,
58:30actually even even after I was in this
58:33little fishing boat going back to the
58:34shore. Um
58:36once my feet hit the ground, then that
58:38was it. It was
58:40Uh tension completely gone.
58:43Uh but until that point,
58:46um it's it's kind of like sitting on a
58:49knife edge over a canyon.
58:51Um it's just so tense all the time.
58:53Um
58:54even in sleep. And you the thing is you
58:57even if you kind of slip into this
59:00You know, I just slip into a daydream in
59:02the afternoon and then all of a sudden
59:04the raft is being shaken around. I look
59:05down, this shark has grabbed a hold of
59:07the ballast pocket and is jerking the
59:09raft around everywhere. That kind of
59:11thing. It's just um
59:13you never know what's going to happen
59:14any moment.
59:16>> Were there I'm almost done with these
59:19questions that you've probably been
59:20asked a lot of times. Once again, I
59:21apologize and thank you. Were there
59:25uh storms during the 76 days and were
59:28there moments where you're like, oh, I'm
59:30going to capsize and it's over again?
59:34>> Uh yeah, like I say, the first few days
59:36after I lost the boat when you know, the
59:38boat was lost basically in the middle of
59:40a a bit of a blow, not
59:43terribly horrendous, but pretty heavy.
59:45Um and when you're in a life raft, you
59:48know, you're feeling every little bubble
59:49that goes under the raft, you know, it's
59:51like as I said, it's it's like it's like
59:53living in a waterbed with a couple of
59:55kangaroos.
59:56Um
59:57and
59:59so it's pretty raucous and it's just a
1:00:01matter of hanging on. I I That's the
1:00:04milk run as you know, trade wind belt.
1:00:06Once you get into that, it's relatively
1:00:08benign. But
1:00:10benign, what's really benign in a 50-ft
1:00:14boat is not that benign in a 6-ft raft.
1:00:18Um
1:00:19but I did have I think one other sort of
1:00:23gale conditions in it where I was um and
1:00:26the raft would I
1:00:28I had a sea anchor. It's like little
1:00:30parachute that would drag through the
1:00:31water and I set that for the first
1:00:33couple of days just to keep the raft on
1:00:35its bottom and even so, it almost tipped
1:00:37over a couple times and
1:00:39I had those conditions later on where I
1:00:41I call them knockdowns. Uh the raft
1:00:43didn't go completely upside down, but it
1:00:45tip up on its end and you know, scoop up
1:00:47all kinds of water and stuff. It's
1:00:49pretty unpleasant, but I was fortunate
1:00:51didn't go upside down. Although you can
1:00:53rewrite the raft, it takes a lot of
1:00:55energy.
1:00:56>> Were your emotions reliable? Did you
1:00:59have bipolar-esque episodes or was there
1:01:03a reliable arc of emotions while you
1:01:06were in that experience?
1:01:09>> Uh no, they're all over the place. It
1:01:11really dependent on what's happening and
1:01:13this and the stages. You know, once I
1:01:15got into
1:01:17oh, I don't know, a couple it took like
1:01:19a couple of weeks to kind of reach this
1:01:21period of adaptation.
1:01:23Um
1:01:24and
1:01:26uh then I was, you know, produced
1:01:28producing a bit of water. I was catching
1:01:31fish
1:01:33at least the beginnings. The raft was
1:01:34still in pretty decent shape and
1:01:35whatnot. And then I had a fair amount of
1:01:37time to kind of sit back and husband my
1:01:40resources. So,
1:01:42um
1:01:43there are were more sort of peaceful
1:01:46times of it, but um
1:01:50I don't know.
1:01:51I don't know if that answers your
1:01:52question exactly.
1:01:54>> No, it does. Was there if there were
1:01:56chapters of the 76 days, what would you
1:02:00kind of refer to the chapters? If there
1:02:02was a chapter one, chapter two, and
1:02:03chapter three.
1:02:05What would the titles of the chapters
1:02:06be? You don't need to need to be too
1:02:08poetic. Did you break it down into three
1:02:10sections?
1:02:11>> No, I broke it up I I broke it up down
1:02:14into three sections. broke No, I broke
1:02:15it up into individual chapters.
1:02:19Not
1:02:21not according to the exactly to the
1:02:24stages of survival I referred to and uh
1:02:27but um
1:02:29when I got home and started writing
1:02:31this, I took all the my little log and
1:02:34spread it out and I put like what
1:02:36practically happened, you know, it was
1:02:38this day and I had water, I got this
1:02:41fish and so on. And then the other notes
1:02:43that I had about what I was thinking and
1:02:45feeling and stuff and I put them kind of
1:02:48in order and they fell kind of fell into
1:02:50chapters for me in that way, but I not
1:02:54sure as I can succinctly describe each
1:02:55one.
1:02:58>> Yeah, it's fine. Don't worry about um
1:03:01the
1:03:02uh when you first were laying Were you
1:03:06What time was it when you hit the whale
1:03:08or shark or whatever it was that that
1:03:09took the boat down?
1:03:10>> Uh middle of the night, basically.
1:03:15>> So, you were asleep?
1:03:17>> Yeah, yeah. Although, sleep when you're
1:03:19single-handed is
1:03:20kind of strange. You can be actively
1:03:22dreaming, but conscious of the movement
1:03:24of the boat and the sounds and stuff
1:03:26like that.
1:03:27>> When
1:03:28you struck whatever, call it a whale or
1:03:31whatever it was that you struck, did
1:03:33your mind go into
1:03:36how would you describe the the texture
1:03:38of your mind in that moment? Was it just
1:03:40complete panic? Was it Did you not have
1:03:43time to panic? Was it like execution,
1:03:45get things done? Like what was that
1:03:47experience
1:03:49like if you had to summate like the
1:03:51feeling of I've hit something in the in
1:03:53the boat is sinking and I'm in the
1:03:55middle of the Atlantic Ocean?
1:03:57>> No, an immediate, you know, shock and
1:04:00jump up. I mean, I didn't even think. I
1:04:02just jumped up and as best I could and
1:04:04started getting at things, but all these
1:04:06other voices were going on in my head at
1:04:09the same time. So, you know, you kind of
1:04:11put them aside.
1:04:13And my wife and I rewatched A Beautiful
1:04:15Mind the other day and I don't know,
1:04:17it's it's about, you know, a
1:04:18schizophrenic math mathematician. He's
1:04:20got these people who keep showing up in
1:04:21his life and causing all kinds of havoc.
1:04:23And in the end it because the taking the
1:04:26drugs dulls his thinking so much, he you
1:04:29know, he can't stand it. And so, he
1:04:32learns to deal with them, these fan-
1:04:35fantasies he has. He sees them,
1:04:37but he kind of ignores them.
1:04:39And that's like the voices, I guess, in
1:04:42my head is like they're there. Like I
1:04:43said, there was even a part of me that
1:04:45was kind of amusing amused by this, you
1:04:47know, camera taking this really dramatic
1:04:49footage.
1:04:50Um,
1:04:52so, they're there, but
1:04:55I was fortunate that I was able to we
1:04:57sometimes call that psychological
1:04:59splitting.
1:05:00Uh, it often happens early on in these
1:05:02kind of crises.
1:05:04Um, we find that about roughly speaking,
1:05:08like looking at oil rig fires and and
1:05:10and incidents like that, about 15% of
1:05:13people are um, have quick leadership
1:05:16qualities because they're able to do the
1:05:18psychological split splitting to kind of
1:05:20look at the situation, evaluate it, and
1:05:23make a decisive decision about action.
1:05:26Um about 15% of people will be
1:05:28panicking, which is, you know, basically
1:05:31running around like a chicken with its
1:05:32head cut off, or catatonic almost. And
1:05:35some of those people might even have to
1:05:36be restrained in these situations. About
1:05:392/3 of people are able to act
1:05:42positively, but they can really use
1:05:44leadership.
1:05:46Um and people will do things like, you
1:05:49know, on a
1:05:50this actually happened in 9/11 where,
1:05:52you know, people were, you know, planes
1:05:54hit and and people were like, "Oh, let's
1:05:57get together in the conference room and
1:05:58figure out what to do." You know, when
1:06:00there's absolutely no time to do that.
1:06:02Uh or they go back to their desk and
1:06:03tidy up.
1:06:05You know, those sorts of things cuz they
1:06:06don't they don't really it's so
1:06:08overwhelming that um it's difficult. And
1:06:11if you have training, you know, like
1:06:13people in the we know
1:06:15really from, you know, all kinds of
1:06:17oceanic training of people on oil rig
1:06:19fires and things like that. If they've
1:06:20gone through the training, their their
1:06:22chances of being able to um
1:06:24act according to their training and
1:06:26things like that are go go way up, and
1:06:28uh survival rates really go up.
1:06:31>> Amazing. When you got
1:06:34So, you had one moment where you saw a
1:06:37boat and you were shooting your flare,
1:06:39and that boat did not see you. Is that
1:06:42right?
1:06:42>> No, actually about nine ships passed me
1:06:44by, and none of them saw me. I had a
1:06:45kind of an arsenal of flares. The first
1:06:47one was pretty pretty close.
1:06:50Um I'd say passed within a mile. I could
1:06:52smell diesel in the air, and you know,
1:06:54feel the wakes and stuff like that after
1:06:56it went by.
1:06:57Um
1:06:59but none of them would see me. I mean,
1:07:01that's just a reality of being on the
1:07:03ocean and merchant ships that don't have
1:07:05big crews. They're not looking out all
1:07:06the time. They're steaming along pretty
1:07:08fast. All that has to happen is somebody
1:07:10can be in the radio room rather out on
1:07:11the deck actually looking in your
1:07:13direction. And even if even if they are
1:07:15out on deck looking in your direction,
1:07:16it's you're just so hard to see.
1:07:19>> How how was that happening dispersed
1:07:21throughout the trip or was it mostly
1:07:23towards the end when you were getting
1:07:24close to the crew?
1:07:25>> No, it it it varied. Um you know, I
1:07:27figured it would be some you know,
1:07:29shipping lanes are not highways exactly
1:07:31except if they're really close to the
1:07:32coast. But um
1:07:34uh even well offshore middle of the
1:07:36Atlantic it was some I think it was I
1:07:39can't remember over 2 weeks before I
1:07:41reached the shipping lanes. I didn't
1:07:42really see much until there. I saw some
1:07:44ships in the shipping lane and then I
1:07:46saw some towards the end of the voyage
1:07:48by which time the flares were pretty
1:07:49much toast anyway. You know, I I think I
1:07:52only had one or two left and
1:07:54so it was it was occasional except
1:07:57during the in the shipping lanes where
1:07:58it was a little bit more prevalent.
1:08:00>> How much of a different person were you
1:08:04after you got back? Like who was Steve
1:08:07Callahan before
1:08:10this trip and after this trip? Is there
1:08:12a distinguishable distinct difference
1:08:15between the two versions of you?
1:08:16>> Um I I you'd probably have to ask other
1:08:18people.
1:08:19I did to be honest different appraisal.
1:08:21I don't know.
1:08:22Um
1:08:23yeah, to a certain degree a lot of me
1:08:24was strengthened
1:08:26um and to a certain degree I came back,
1:08:29you know, wanting to reinvent my life.
1:08:31Um
1:08:32so that's what I set about doing.
1:08:36Um
1:08:37I I was
1:08:40I
1:08:42tend to be pretty impatient. But I was I
1:08:45was very patient to begin with and
1:08:49you know,
1:08:50never felt
1:08:51freer of anything. I you know, I I just
1:08:55was not stressed about anything for a
1:08:56long while.
1:08:58But you know,
1:08:59>> How long did it take for you to start
1:09:01being impatient to things again after
1:09:03you got back. I'd imagine there's
1:09:05probably like a new car smell like a
1:09:07upon arriving like nothing could bother
1:09:09you for a while I would presume.
1:09:10>> I
1:09:11don't I don't know. Some of you know
1:09:12what at the end I let's let's put it
1:09:15this way. When I first landed
1:09:18when I first landed on Marie Galante
1:09:20I felt literally reborn.
1:09:22Um
1:09:24and I don't mean that in a kind of I
1:09:26don't know neo-Christian way or anything
1:09:27like that, but I
1:09:29I felt completely different and
1:09:32um like even for the physical sensations
1:09:35of color and sound
1:09:38other than the ocean and my own voice or
1:09:41uh I didn't talk much actually, but um
1:09:45you know, the clatter of palm trees and
1:09:47the colors of flowers and stuff were you
1:09:50know, just sort of like super iridescent
1:09:52almost and so it was like it was like
1:09:54looking at the world through a baby's
1:09:56eyes, but I was also very naive again. I
1:09:58I think I'd over
1:10:01romanticize people. Um and it took me a
1:10:05while to it's a slow it's a slow slow
1:10:07thing. Um
1:10:10but I you know, I did come back and try
1:10:12to be better at life in a general sense
1:10:17um and I think I did, you know, I got a
1:10:19wonderful wife Kathy and
1:10:21we've made an incredible life together
1:10:23and had all kinds of adventures and
1:10:25um
1:10:26so
1:10:28in the end I think I'm a better me uh
1:10:30but I'm surely not a perfect me.
1:10:35>> If you could have had anyone with you on
1:10:39the life raft for 76 days, would you
1:10:43have had someone or would that have just
1:10:45made it more difficult to survive? And
1:10:48if you could have had someone, would you
1:10:49have had someone and who would it be?
1:10:52>> Well,
1:10:53uh difficult because um there was no way
1:10:57I could produce enough water for two
1:10:59people. So, at least one of us would
1:11:00have died
1:11:01in a practical sense.
1:11:04Um,
1:11:07in a lot of ways I didn't want anybody
1:11:09with me because it was, you know, that's
1:11:13wishing a helling hellish experience on
1:11:16someone.
1:11:17I never really thought about it that
1:11:18much.
1:11:19Uh, and certainly not when I was in the
1:11:21raft. It's It's what it is.
1:11:23Um,
1:11:24and I've never really thought about it
1:11:26that much since, actually, frankly. Um,
1:11:29I'm not sure who that would be. I mean,
1:11:30there are a lot of a lot of people and
1:11:33again, it's one of those yin-yang kind
1:11:35of balances because,
1:11:37uh, unless I had figured out another way
1:11:39of producing or getting water, you know,
1:11:41at least one of us would have died. It
1:11:42would The raft would have been more
1:11:43crowded. All these things. On the other
1:11:45hand, maybe the other person would have
1:11:47seen a ship that I could not possibly
1:11:49have seen cuz I had to rest sometimes
1:11:51and all that. Uh, uh, they probably
1:11:54would have much better ideas about how
1:11:56to solve a problem like the hole in the
1:11:57bottom of the raft. So, you just
1:12:01you know, you never know.
1:12:03>> I really appreciate getting to
1:12:06communicate to you. It's really a
1:12:08meaningful thing for me, man.
1:12:09>> Yeah.
1:12:09>> Um, is there any
1:12:12major
1:12:13takeaways, shareable takeaways that
1:12:16you've gathered from that experience
1:12:18that you still hold with you today?
1:12:20>> Oh.
1:12:21>> Or is this point so much time has passed
1:12:22it's
1:12:23Is it still very like real and present
1:12:25for you, that experience? Is there Do
1:12:26you Is there PTSD that you could call
1:12:29around that at all? Or is it like What
1:12:30What is your experience with that
1:12:32relation your relationship to that
1:12:33experience today?
1:12:33>> Uh, I don't know. It's It has so been
1:12:36It's been so transformed in so many
1:12:37times and,
1:12:39um,
1:12:40you know, I'm not the guy I was then.
1:12:42Um,
1:12:43uh, I'm I'm much older. I've had a lot
1:12:45more experiences including other
1:12:47um,
1:12:49crises,
1:12:50death-defying crises. Um,
1:12:53uh,
1:12:55I
1:12:56It's It's really hard for me to answer.
1:12:58I I can't separate myself from that
1:12:59life. Absolutely not. Because it led me
1:13:02so many different places, too. You know,
1:13:04I got ashore and
1:13:06I'd been interested in writing was
1:13:08teaching at a yacht design school and we
1:13:10were writing our own materials. And so,
1:13:12I was doing a bit of writing and editing
1:13:14and things, but then other people wanted
1:13:16me to write a story about it and that
1:13:17led me into
1:13:19uh
1:13:20sailing journalism and
1:13:23uh
1:13:24I won't get into all the fields that it
1:13:25took me down in terms of that, meeting
1:13:27people, um
1:13:29uh even stuff decades later like when I
1:13:33got contacted by Ang Lee and he wanted
1:13:36to know if he'd come up and talk to me
1:13:38about this crazy story, the Life of Pi,
1:13:40that he wanted to make into a movie. And
1:13:42I ended up working with him quite
1:13:44closely um on the film um in bringing
1:13:48hopefully bringing certain elements of
1:13:50this uh of my old fish story into a new
1:13:53fish story. Um
1:13:55And And so, I've met so many people,
1:13:58gone down, you know, I I've met some of
1:14:00my if not my I don't really have heroes
1:14:02per se, but I so admire so many people
1:14:05who have who are really accomplished and
1:14:08whether it was, you know, Thor Heyerdahl
1:14:09I I got to meet in Norway and you know,
1:14:12people like that. Um
1:14:14I
1:14:16went out to the
1:14:17in a disparate part of it, you know,
1:14:19went out to the uh Black Hills
1:14:21Children's Home that deals with uh kids
1:14:23at youth at risk and met incredible
1:14:26people there doing amazing work. So,
1:14:30I mean, how could I separate it? You
1:14:31know, it's it's really
1:14:34There was the me and it's not like I'm a
1:14:36completely different person, but this
1:14:38certainly
1:14:39uh diverted the stream.
1:14:42>> Yeah. I'd imagine, final question, I
1:14:44imagine you wouldn't if there was some
1:14:46way to erase that from your past,
1:14:47There's no way you would erase that, I
1:14:49would imagine. You would you would elect
1:14:50yes to doing that or am I
1:14:52projecting?
1:14:53>> Mhm, no. No, and I think that's you
1:14:56know,
1:14:57most survivors anyway. It's It's not
1:14:59that we don't regret things that
1:15:00happened in the experience. And I was
1:15:02very fortunate by being by myself. I
1:15:04wasn't like, you know, I'm at the you
1:15:06know, the survivors of the Andes plane
1:15:08crash some years back uh you know, who
1:15:13basically were given an environment with
1:15:16zero food and really hostile environment
1:15:19ended up having to you know, cannibalize
1:15:21the bodies of people who died in the
1:15:23crash and things like that, which I I
1:15:25just can't imagine. But even them, you
1:15:27know, speaking to them, I mean, I I
1:15:31I did a show with one of them um
1:15:33and he's you know, we were talking about
1:15:36not only the horrors of experiences, but
1:15:39the things of value with them. And he
1:15:40said he just summarized he said, you
1:15:43know, sometimes I just wish I was back
1:15:45in the mountains again. And I thought
1:15:47that was incredible statement and uh so
1:15:50it's like that with me. I was very
1:15:52fortunate. I wasn't I was by myself.
1:15:54Nobody died. Uh I sacrificed some
1:15:59you know, really val- valuable fish, at
1:16:02least valuable to me.
1:16:04Um
1:16:05but uh
1:16:07again, you know, we go through these
1:16:09experiences and
1:16:11you know, despite how bad they are, we
1:16:14see things and learn things about
1:16:16ourselves and about the world that we
1:16:17could only experience in that way. And I
1:16:20saw not only, you know, not only was I
1:16:22in pain and these other things, but I I
1:16:25saw incredible things and and felt very
1:16:28deeply about um like in my relationship
1:16:31with the natural world and how much I'm
1:16:34not I'm not the star of the show. I'm
1:16:36just this like little teeny piece that
1:16:37fits in here and I'm blessed to to able
1:16:40to to have that. So,
1:16:42um that's all pretty priceless stuff to
1:16:45me.
1:16:47>> Is there anything else to final words to
1:16:49share with people before wrapping up?
1:16:50>> No, I can I think that's it. Thank you
1:16:52for your patience.
1:16:57>> Thank you for your patience.
1:17:00>> And sticking and sticking it out. I'm
1:17:01glad we got this done. I I'm I am glad
1:17:04that we got this done finally. So,
1:17:07I was wondering if it was going to have
1:17:08to be postponed to another day. So, I
1:17:10hope this works out for you.
1:17:13>> Well, we made it. We made it. We made
1:17:15it, Albert. All right, thank you very
1:17:16much. I appreciate you. Thank you for
1:17:17tuning in. That's it. That's all. I'll
1:17:19see you next week.
1:17:20Thank you guys so much for watching. If
1:17:21you enjoyed that episode, you might also
1:17:22enjoy this episode over here, as well as
1:17:25this one over here. Thanks for
1:17:27subscribing. Appreciate you. I'll see
1:17:28you in the next video.

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