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He Escaped Lawyer Burnout to Run a Remote Law Firm from 5 Countries — Transcript

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0:01Today's guest is someone who has really
0:03broken boundaries, true to the name of
0:05this show, rejecting the traditional law
0:08path to build something completely
0:10different, a law firm designed for the
0:12remote era.
0:14He's the founder of e-Legal Counsel,
0:16helping business owners grow fast, stay
0:18protected, and operate across borders
0:20without legal friction. He himself is
0:24one of the first original digital nomad
0:27lawyers working across South America,
0:29Europe, and beyond. Now, he has made it
0:32his mission to redefine what success
0:34looks like for modern lawyers, proving
0:37that you can build a legal practice
0:39without being trapped in a stuffy
0:41office. Ari Mike, welcome to the show.
0:45>> Thank you, Nika. Thank you for having
0:46me. I appreciate this.
0:48>> Great to see you. I would love to start
0:50today off with your story. Tell us a
0:52little bit about how life looked before
0:55you decided to work for yourself and
0:57work from anywhere. Was there a trigger
0:59point or a moment that made you want to
1:01change?
1:03>> Absolutely. So, I was born in North
1:05America in a very beautiful but cold
1:07city known for its harsh winters,
1:10Montreal, Canada. I was raised born and
1:12raised there and went to law school not
1:13too far from Montreal. My legal journey
1:16began at a pretty old-school law firm.
1:18So, I've worked in two law firms in my
1:20life, uh both in private practice. The
1:23first one was very old-school, old
1:24office, old partners, old clients, old
1:27technology. And the other one was
1:30quite uh the opposite of that, very new
1:32school, no office requirements, WeWork
1:34passes, working from the clouds, as they
1:36say.
1:37I learned a great deal at both those
1:39places, but I guess you can imagine
1:41where I enjoyed working more. Uh it was
1:44the latter, obviously. So, to answer
1:45your question, the trigger point for me
1:48was when I became a dad, when my son was
1:50born. I have a
1:5118-month-old child, and at that point I
1:53kind of reached a burnout stage at the
1:56second firm where I was working at, the
1:58uh digital law firm. I wasn't happy
2:00anymore, even though I had the dream
2:02job. So, I was one of the first digital
2:04nomad lawyers then, and that was
2:06basically the trigger point for me to I
2:08want to do my own thing. I want to
2:10create my own empire.
2:12>> Yes, and also have I suppose more of
2:14that flexibility that you get when you
2:16do work for yourself. Curious to know,
2:19because I think when I speak to folk
2:21and having done a similar transition
2:24myself, working from anywhere, myself
2:26years ago, it can look like it's all
2:29perfect on the outside. What were the
2:31biggest challenges you faced when you
2:34decided to
2:35go out on your own and build your own
2:37company.
2:38>> A few of them. I love traveling, so for
2:41me it was like a no-brainer, but I think
2:43the biggest challenge was overcoming the
2:45expectations, explaining to my friends
2:47and family that I'm going to live as a
2:50digital nomad, especially as a lawyer.
2:52That one was pretty hard for me. A lot
2:54of people struggle with, I guess,
2:56focusing on a task when they are
2:57traveling, because when we're traveling,
2:59we want to explore cities, right? So, I
3:02think that was the the hardest part for
3:04me was
3:05to basically we're challenging the norm,
3:07right? And then basically
3:09explaining to my friends and family what
3:11I'm going to do, and then executing on
3:13that.
3:14>> Yeah, totally. I think it's really
3:17interesting, isn't it, because it's not
3:19really been done before, what we've
3:21done, working for ourselves, working
3:23from anywhere, combining career and
3:25travel. I think traditionally it's
3:27always been seen as one or the other.
3:29So, I can completely understand that
3:30there was a bit of, "Okay, folk, I'm
3:32doing this, and please support me, but
3:35just bear with me, we'll be successful."
3:37So, tell us a little bit about e-Legal
3:39Counsel. What is it that makes it
3:40different from, say, a traditional law
3:42firm?
3:43>> Uh
3:44couple of things. I would say as opposed
3:46to 99% of law firms out there,
3:49uh I don't charge my clients for reading
3:51emails or giving me a call. If you're
3:53ever reviewed a lawyer's invoice, you'll
3:55see there's a bunch of ones or 5-minute
3:57charges for reading or sending an email.
3:59I don't know any other business or
4:00business model that does that. So, I
4:03tried to not do that because I think
4:05like a business owner, I'm a founder,
4:07I'm an entrepreneur, and I and I hate
4:09being billed by the hour. So, I'm
4:11basically fighting against the billable
4:13hour. So, yeah, I think that would that
4:14would be the the the main difference. I
4:16charge per outcome, I charge per per
4:18project, and not by the not by the hour,
4:20which clients love, obviously.
4:22>> Yeah, of course. I'm really curious to
4:25know, Ari, like in those early stages,
4:28a question I get asked a lot in my
4:30founders community and from people is
4:34how do I get those first sales? How do I
4:38go about client acquisition? So, how did
4:41you go about going from a law firm where
4:45a lot of the clients already there to
4:47suddenly I need to find clients myself?
4:49What did you do? What was your approach,
4:51your tactics?
4:53>> It's a great question. I I coach a lot
4:56of lawyers on the specific task, and I
4:59think one of the biggest ones for me was
5:02learning how to leverage LinkedIn. When
5:04I started this digital nomad journey, I
5:06told to myself, I need to be posting on
5:08LinkedIn to share my story as a lawyer.
5:10Like I know there's not a lot of lawyers
5:11working and living as a digital nomad.
5:14So, I started posting, and then I saw
5:16that there was obviously some interest
5:18around the topic, but I wanted to get
5:20better at at at creating content at in
5:23posting. So, I hired a few coaches and
5:25mentors to kind of teach me the game.
5:28How does LinkedIn work? How does How
5:29does the algorithm work? What does the
5:31What does the audience want? So, I think
5:33what would be the best, like how to get
5:36clients initially when you don't have
5:37one, is to obviously tap into your
5:40network and leverage social media, which
5:42is huge these days. And for me, that
5:44that the the social media that was huge
5:47was definitely LinkedIn because all the
5:49professionals are on there.
5:51>> I guess with LinkedIn as well, if you
5:53think about your target audience,
5:55they're going to be hanging out there.
5:57Was that through posting content and
6:00inbound leads? Was it through connecting
6:03with individuals and networking? When
6:05you say LinkedIn, what exactly do you
6:07mean?
6:08>> So, a lot of things. It's not only
6:09gaining clients from LinkedIn, but also
6:11referral partners. People a lot of like
6:13creating just a buzz around your your
6:15your name, your market, your offer is
6:17important. A lot of people know me on
6:19LinkedIn as the digital nomad lawyer,
6:20but I never post on legal stuff. I never
6:23post stuff on how to write a contract or
6:25how to review a contract. And it's
6:26nothing like that. I just share my story
6:28and because it's trendy, because it's
6:30interesting, people tend to share it,
6:32people tend to comment on it, and a lot
6:34of eyes are on LinkedIn. So, I get
6:35referrals from other lawyers,
6:37accountants around the country, around
6:39the globe like for for people who need
6:41lawyers in Canada because I'm always
6:43active on there. So, it's not
6:45necessarily I I like to say this, you
6:47don't necessarily get direct clients
6:48from LinkedIn, but you get indirect ones
6:50basically from other people who follow
6:52you.
6:53>> Yeah. I was talking to someone actually
6:55just before this who He was asking me,
6:58you know, is LinkedIn a place for
7:01getting direct inbound clients? And I
7:03said, probably maybe yes, sometimes, but
7:07what I've seen myself and what you've
7:08been saying is that actually often times
7:10it comes through
7:13someone who knows someone or someone who
7:14had who was interested in your service
7:16and then they clicked on your LinkedIn
7:18profile and they were like, this person
7:19knows what they're talking about or this
7:21person seems personable or my type of
7:23vibe, let's have a call. So, I think
7:26it's really really powerful. I'm curious
7:28to know because you've said that lawyers
7:30who redefine success rather than chase
7:33security are shaping the future. What
7:36does that mean?
7:38>> Uh this is a good one. I say this often.
7:40Most lawyers I think don't actually want
7:43to success. They want safety, which is
7:46dressed up as success. They want the
7:49corner offers. They want to work at a
7:50big firm. They want to have the title,
7:53uh, pension maybe at 65. But I don't
7:56think that's success, at least not for
7:57me. Um, that's kind of like a hostage
7:59situation with uh, with some nice
8:01branding. Uh, but I think lawyers
8:04shaping the future,
8:06uh, they figured out something and
8:08that's
8:09that success is designed by people who
8:11need you to stay in the office. Like if
8:14you think about the law firm model, like
8:15partners need associates. Firms need the
8:18billable hours, so they bill. So the
8:20whole system runs on that lawyer who's
8:22constantly billing. So that's basically
8:25the shift that I figured out. And like
8:27nobody says this out loud, but the
8:28lawyers that are chasing security are
8:30the most exposed group in the profession
8:32right now because of AI. AI is coming
8:34for the billable hour. Uh, clients are
8:36getting smarter about the fees. So the
8:38lawyers shaping the future are not
8:40necessarily braver than anyone else, but
8:42they have done the run the numbers,
8:44they've done the math, and they figured
8:46it out.
8:47>> Amazing. So interesting. I was going to
8:49come to this question a little bit
8:50later, but since you're talking about
8:53sort of future-proofing yourself as a
8:55lawyer and AI, I'm curious to see where
8:58you see
9:00the legal profession and the legal
9:02industry going more generally now.
9:04Because you're right, I have a friend of
9:05mine
9:06and she's running a brilliant business
9:08and she's been very clever because her
9:10business is all around how law firms can
9:12implement AI, etc. But I do think that
9:15now many folk are turning to AI rather
9:18than to your point, billing
9:2020-50 hours to a lawyer. So where do you
9:23see the future of the legal profession
9:25going?
9:28>> It's tough to say, definitely. I think
9:30firms eventually will have no choice but
9:33to move away from the billable hour,
9:35even though I still see a lot of firms
9:37grasping onto it, I see the role of a
9:39junior lawyer changing a lot because
9:41those guys bill a lot of hours and
9:42they're kind of learning on the job.
9:44They're getting paid to learn. And
9:45clients are getting smarter. They often
9:47do their homework before coming to you.
9:50Like uh I work with a lot of startup
9:52founders and they've obviously run
9:55through through the questions that they
9:56have by ChatGPT or Claude now. So,
9:58they're coming to you a little more
10:00informed than they used to do. So,
10:02that's definitely It's also making the
10:04work a little more challenging for us
10:07lawyers because then we have to explain
10:08the clients why sometimes the version
10:11that Claude is giving them or ChatGPT is
10:13not necessarily true for their case. So,
10:15there's a lot of change at the moment,
10:17but it's fun. I like it, to be honest.
10:18It's uh it's challenging. It's uh You
10:20got to You got to adapt. You got to
10:21learn as a lawyer, you got to learn how
10:23to use AI as well. You can't stay
10:25behind, or else you're going extinct.
10:28>> Yeah, it's so true and I think that's
10:29true across different professions and
10:32industries. I am had a friend of mine
10:34who said partly the reason you would
10:35still pay a lawyer rather than AI is
10:38because you have the protection of that
10:40firm or that name behind what you do.
10:43Whereas, you can't say, "Oh, Claude told
10:45me." Kind of breaks down a little bit.
10:48So, one reason perhaps. I love love love
10:50what you said around
10:52definitions of success, how many people
10:56might feel that they are just going
10:57through the motions and chasing
10:59something where when they get to the top
11:01of that mountain, they look out and the
11:03view isn't what they wanted. And I'm
11:05curious to know, for someone who's
11:07watching this now, they can be in law,
11:08maybe they're in consulting, maybe
11:10they're in accounting, maybe they're in
11:11something else. And they kind of relate
11:13to what you said. They have this feeling
11:15of I want to go out and do my own thing,
11:17but I'm kind of scared to leave. I'm
11:20scared to make that leap. What would you
11:21tell them?
11:24I would
11:26Well, fear is a is a funny thing. I
11:27would quote a line from one of my
11:29favorite athletes, Michael Jordan. He
11:30says, "Limits like fears are often just
11:33an illusion."
11:34And I ask this question a lot to my
11:36coaching clients, the same one you
11:38asked. What would I just say for people
11:39who are scared to leave?
11:41And I would ask them, "What makes you
11:43afraid? What is it that makes you scared
11:46to leave your your job?" And usually the
11:49answers are I get, they come down to
11:52numbers and income and and finances.
11:55Once we figure that part out together
11:57and and I run the numbers with them, I
11:58run the math, things become a little
12:00easier because they're able to visualize
12:02what they need to do in order to kind of
12:03like
12:04make them at least the same amount of
12:06income. That's what people are are
12:07scared of. They want They don't want to
12:09make less money than they did before.
12:11Um
12:12and you basically realize that your
12:14fears are mostly things that you can
12:17work on and and get better at. There are
12:19ways of improving the things that you
12:21are scared of and that makes it usually
12:23easier for people to make that leap. And
12:27that is why I coach these lawyers
12:28because I that fear is is
12:31is
12:32uh it it does exist and uh
12:37and it's real.
12:37>> Yeah. And there's so much, isn't there,
12:39around mindset, whether that's the
12:41mindset of being an entrepreneur,
12:43mindset of traveling the world. I think
12:45what's interesting as well is many
12:47people
12:49will say, "Well, I have a child or I
12:51have a family. I can't take the risk."
12:53Now, what you did, am I right in saying
12:55that you made the leap just after the
12:57baby was born or how did you manage that
13:00sort of expectation of I need to provide
13:03and now suddenly I'm leaving the
13:05security of my job?
13:08>> It was 1 month after Yeah, 1 month after
13:10I had my kid and I reached that breaking
13:12point. So, I guess for me there was that
13:14fire under me for to leave because I was
13:19telling myself, "If I do stay now, if I
13:21don't leave now, it's only going to get
13:23harder." And and I actually wrote about
13:25this in my book, which I launched
13:26recently. The more you wait, the more
13:29your obligations, your debt, your
13:31mortgages going to increase, and it's
13:33the harder it's going to become to
13:34leave. That is why if you do it at a
13:36younger age, it's a lot easier to
13:38manage. You'll fail earlier, you'll fail
13:40forward, and and figure it out. Whether
13:42it's a lot harder for someone who's 40,
13:4350, 60 to leave. Although I've seen
13:45that, too. It just it takes a lot more
13:48courage to be able to leave. So, yes,
13:51definitely I think leaving earlier is
13:53going to be easier for some people.
13:55>> But even for anyone watching this now
13:58who maybe is later on, what would you
14:00say to them? Cuz it's still possible, I
14:02would say. It's still possible. It's
14:03never too late to change your career.
14:05But I suppose maybe you'd say you need
14:07more of a plan, you need to think ahead.
14:10I always wonder whether a lot of it is,
14:13you know, fail to plan,
14:16plan to fail, right? Like make sure that
14:18you have that plan in place. Are there
14:20any steps that you would advise for
14:22someone who's thinking about working for
14:24themselves? Like what holistically
14:27should they be thinking of before they
14:28take that leap?
14:30>> A couple of things. First of all, you
14:32need to have like a emergency runway.
14:34So, if the things don't go as as
14:36planned, you have something to basically
14:38feed yourself, feed your family. I would
14:40suggest roughly to a 6-month 12-month
14:43runway. Although it takes a lot quicker,
14:46I think, to to get up on your own feet.
14:48I planned similarly. I had about maybe
14:5112 month of runway, and about a month or
14:54two after I left, I returned back to my
14:56what I was making at the firm. So,
14:59uh, definitely do plan, and
15:02couple of things you need to master when
15:04you're an entrepreneur, if you're
15:05working for yourself, is to be a good
15:07communicator, for sure. And you got to
15:09learn sales, because like you said, no
15:11one's feeding you any files, whether
15:12it's in law or otherwise. No one's
15:14feeding you the clients. You have to go
15:16and get them yourself, and you got to
15:18you got to close some deals. It's not
15:19easy. So, definitely sales is is one of
15:22the most important skills you need to
15:25learn, which honestly comes down to
15:26communication, communicating your offer,
15:28what it is that you're selling, and
15:30being empathetic, and all that.
15:32>> Uh-huh. I'd love to just dive into that
15:34little bit more because a lot of
15:36founders and business owners struggle
15:38with sales, particularly maybe closing a
15:41sale on a call. How have you managed
15:43that?
15:45>> [sighs]
15:46>> It's a It's a good question. For lawyers
15:48specifically, I find that lawyers are
15:49terrible terrible sales people. Like,
15:51they're very very bad at selling. I'm
15:54not sure why, but maybe probably cuz
15:56they're very analytical.
15:57>> So, if someone is on a sales call or
16:00they're looking to close a deal, what
16:02advice would you give?
16:05>> It's a very tough question, but I think
16:08I would You have to understand what your
16:10offer is. You have to know what your
16:11product is, what it is that you're
16:12selling. Very important very important.
16:14Number one. Number two, you have to know
16:17who your customer is or what their pain
16:18points are. You can't assume anything.
16:21You have to understand what is it that
16:22they're looking for. I think an
16:24effective way of doing a discovery call,
16:26which is basically that call that you're
16:27on and you're trying to close, is to be
16:30a very good listener. You can't be
16:31talking all the time. You have to ask
16:32questions and take notes and make sure
16:35you understand their pain points to see
16:37if what you're selling is the right fit
16:39because sometimes what we have to offer
16:42is not the right fit for for the
16:44customer and or the client, and you have
16:46to be able to identify that pretty
16:48quickly on the call.
16:49>> I always talk about this with or without
16:51you energy. Like, you're going to do
16:52this with or without the other person on
16:54the call, and also know that you're
16:57vetting them as much as the other way
16:59around, right? You're seeing if you
17:01actually can be a good fit. And I think
17:03when you change that
17:05perspective and you go into sales calls
17:07with that, it becomes not necessarily
17:10fun, but it comes It becomes easier, and
17:12it's not something that you're like,
17:14"Ugh, I hate this cuz I'm trying to
17:15persuade the person." You're like,
17:16"Right, this is it. Let's see if this
17:19would be a good fit. And your point
17:20around curiosity, communication,
17:23listening, all all help. I'd love to
17:25talk more about the travel side of
17:27things. What do you think is one of the
17:30biggest misconceptions
17:32about being a digital nomad lawyer? What
17:34do you people assume is the case, but
17:37actually isn't true?
17:39>> Uh people see the pictures on the beach
17:41or in Bali by the pool and think it's
17:43easy and fun all the time. But they
17:45don't know about the time zone
17:46differences, all the work that you have
17:48to do in a new city. It's not all not
17:51all sunshines and rainbows. That's
17:52definitely true. People expect that to
17:55be the case, but it's not. But I mean,
17:57it is fun. I can't I can't I do enjoy
17:59traveling and working at the same time
18:01because you get to explore places while
18:03not being on vacation and like actually
18:05making money. But people assume that
18:07it's true and that you're not working,
18:09you're just having fun all the time,
18:10when it's rarely the case.
18:12>> Yeah, I always say, the only reason that
18:15you see these pictures is because I'm
18:16working, you right? And it's
18:18>> [laughter]
18:19>> it's often just like the 30 minutes in
18:21the day that you're like outside by the
18:23pool and the rest you're inside working.
18:25And I'm really curious to know,
18:28personally from my perspective as well,
18:30having also traveled a lot, out of all
18:32the countries that you've lived in, what
18:34has changed you the most personally and
18:37why?
18:40>> That's a great question. I lived in
18:42many, many places in the last 5 years in
18:44this my journey. Like from Greece, all
18:47over Europe, Miami, LA, Argentina,
18:50Mexico, Armenia, to name a few. My
18:52favorite place, I think it has to be one
18:54of the first ones, which was Barcelona.
18:57I was there for a little less than 2
18:59months, and that place has a huge like
19:01digital nomad culture. Have you been to
19:03Barcelona?
19:04>> I have been, but very, very early on in
19:07like a very long time ago. I did do 6
19:10months nomading in Valencia, which is a
19:12two hour
19:13>> Yes, so yeah, but I I had been also as a
19:16teenager but going there as an as a
19:18working adult is very different. So like
19:20I said, everyone's working from coffee
19:21shops. They have a very nice WeWorks
19:24over there. And just being able to do
19:26that as a lawyer in my like very young
19:29in my journey, a lawyer from Canada on
19:32top of that was it was a very
19:33eye-opening trip for me because I was
19:35able to realize what I can do from a
19:39beautiful city like Barcelona. And after
19:42that I couldn't go back to a traditional
19:44offer office after that experience.
19:48>> Yeah, it changes your brain chemistry.
19:50And I think that first place for me
19:53actually it was also Spain but Valencia.
19:54That first place that you go and you
19:57know mad and you're like I still
19:58remember. I mean, I actually fractured
20:00my foot in my first two weeks there,
20:03which was completely unexpected. But
20:05even despite that, I was just like this
20:08is amazing. How can I be making money
20:10online and living in such a beautiful
20:12place. That said, you will know as well
20:14as I do that there are trade-offs,
20:16right? I think that we choose in life is
20:18always perfect. Is there anything that
20:20you miss from your previous life? Is
20:23there anything that you think the
20:25digital nomad approach doesn't give that
20:28maybe some people would struggle with?
20:32>> Absolutely. Like um you're kind of away
20:35from your core family and friends. My
20:38ethnic background is is Armenian and
20:39we're we're huge on family values and I
20:42do have a big family. So I do kind of
20:45miss out on that stuff. Like the family
20:47gatherings, events. You're kind of
20:49always participating via FaceTime. But
20:51there is a flip side to it because I'm
20:53traveling all the time, a lot of my
20:55friends and family come to visit me at
20:57the cities I'm in. Like I was in Florida
20:59a couple of months ago during the winter
21:00and a lot of my friends and family from
21:02Canada came to visit me. It gives them
21:04an excuse to get out of Canada. You
21:05know, like I were going to go visit Ari
21:07and the family. And we created
21:09exceptional memories in like new cities
21:12people would never come to if I hadn't
21:14like left. So, there is a flip side, but
21:16definitely being away from
21:19I guess your your your family,
21:21uh parents and all that is is is hard is
21:25probably the one of the hardest things
21:27to uh
21:28uh to live your digital nomad life.
21:30>> It can be isolating for sure. I mean, I
21:32did it as a solo female, and that was
21:36probably one of the bravest things I've
21:37ever done because it was completely
21:40on my own in a new country, didn't speak
21:43the language, but
21:45I look back and I'm just like, "Wow."
21:47You know, and I'm sure you feel the same
21:49to be able to take that leap and
21:52work in different places, but also you
21:53meet interesting people as well when
21:55you're in new countries and you create
21:57those connections and those
21:59relationships, and I think that's also
22:02so interesting because sometimes we're
22:03so in our own bubble. Like if you'd
22:05stayed in Canada and I stayed in London,
22:07sure life would have looked very
22:08different.
22:10>> Yeah, think about all the global network
22:12that you have because you left. Like
22:13think of all the people that you met,
22:15business-related or not, because you've
22:18been traveling so much. Think it's it's
22:20honestly beneficial for definitely good
22:23for business to have that wide range of
22:25network and contacts
22:27to tap in.
22:28>> Yeah, and it just enriches your life
22:31generally speaking, I think, business
22:32and that side. Um curious to know,
22:35looking ahead, thinking about future of
22:37work, do you think that we're going to
22:40see more digital nomad lawyers? Do you
22:42think we're going to see more lawyers
22:44able to work remotely from anywhere,
22:45build practices like yours, or do you
22:47think this is a very niche thing? I
22:50mean, maybe it's beneficial if it's a
22:51niche thing cuz you're the person, but
22:53curious to know whether you think that
22:55this will expand.
22:57>> Um
22:58when I started out right after COVID, it
23:01was I was probably one of the first
23:02digital nomad lawyers to do it. But now,
23:05I'm on LinkedIn all the time. I do see a
23:06lot more lawyers working remotely these
23:08days. I've been coaching a lot of them
23:10for over a year now. But I I think it's
23:12still niche like
23:14but it's becoming more of a trend as
23:16well as law firms start to kind of give
23:19that flexibility or at least companies
23:21who have in-house counsel, they're
23:23starting to become a little more
23:24flexible on that end. I'm proud to be
23:27leading the pack on that and making it
23:28kind of sexy for lawyers to work and
23:30travel at the same time. So, and also in
23:33in certain types of law, like litigators
23:35and stuff, they they have to go to court
23:37often. So, I think for them it's going
23:39to be a lot a bit harder. But for
23:42transactional lawyers like me, very
23:44doable if your law firm or the company
23:47that you're working on at has that level
23:49of flexibility or or offers that. But
23:52I'm definitely going to share and post
23:54about my journey and to to
23:57help lawyers give it a try. And uh I'm
24:00sure a lot of them would want would love
24:01a break from the office life.
24:04>> Yeah. And sometimes it's almost just try
24:07it. Just try it and see how you find it.
24:11Look at it almost like an experiment.
24:13What have you really got to lose? If you
24:15don't enjoy it, you can always go back.
24:17But most of the time, most people I know
24:19and speak to don't go back.
24:20>> Yeah.
24:21>> So, taking a step away from law and
24:23thinking about sort of the world of work
24:25as a whole, AI, remote work, all the
24:27changes that we're seeing happening. I
24:30speak on this topic and I'm really
24:31fascinated by what it means to work, why
24:33we work, how we work. Where do you see
24:36the future of work going as a whole?
24:38Like, where do you see
24:42careers and our approach to work moving?
24:47>> Um I get this question asked a lot of
24:49times and I think I have a different
24:51approach a different mindset when it
24:53comes to this. I think being good at the
24:56fundamentals is always going to be
24:57important or relevant. I'm an athlete,
24:59so I think a lot of these things in a
25:01sports way, and basketball, soccer,
25:03tennis, or whatever. And the game
25:05changes over time and in different eras,
25:07but those who've mastered the
25:09fundamentals always stay relevant. So,
25:11in sports, those are whatever, footwork,
25:13mobility, technique, and in business
25:15world, that's communication, sales,
25:17empathy. If you have those skills locked
25:19down, yes, everything is going to change
25:21around you, but you'll be all right in
25:23this ever-changing AI world.
25:26I know it doesn't answer your question,
25:28but I think that a lot of things are
25:30changing right now, and people are
25:31panicking, but I think it's important to
25:33lock down the
25:36uh the fundamentals of business, and I
25:37think you'll be all right, even if
25:39everything changes around you. I truly
25:41believe
25:42>> I think it's a great point, and I speak
25:44more on the human side of the future of
25:46work, and a lot of what you said there
25:47is very relevant because
25:50it's almost like we've gone full circle.
25:52Once upon a time, it was almost seen as
25:54soft skills, nice to have, oh, good
25:56communication, good relationship
25:59building, good at empathy, but if you're
26:01like really technical in this, then but
26:03actually now it's almost flipped that
26:06the things that make us more human are
26:08going to become more important, and
26:10those things that you just listed there
26:12will help make you stand out. Is there
26:14anything else from your time working
26:16with founders that you see make someone
26:19an excellent leader? That you see this
26:22trait they have is helping their
26:24business thrive.
26:27>> Oh, absolutely. A couple of things. I
26:29think first one, you got to be
26:30conscientious, like you got to do your
26:32job well and like thoroughly, carefully.
26:35You got to be a good communicator, you
26:36got to be a good leader. And what does
26:38that mean? It means leading by example.
26:40Uh you got to be
26:42um good at sales. Like we we talked
26:44touched on this. Um I think those are
26:46excellent that I see those common traits
26:48in the successful founders that I work
26:51with. They they do their jobs well, they
26:53work hard, and also, not only are they
26:55working hard, they're also working smart
26:58and are able to trust their teammates
27:00and delegate effectively. It's not only
27:02about putting in the hours, you also
27:04have to be able to leverage other people
27:06though because our time is is is finite,
27:09right? I always say this, time is
27:11limited, money is unlimited. So, the
27:14great the best leaders are the ones who
27:16are able to trust their team and
27:18delegate tasks that they shouldn't be
27:19doing themselves to
27:21>> Yeah.
27:22>> other people on their team.
27:23>> Yeah, and even AI agents can help now a
27:26lot. I would say, how can you maximize
27:29for time and money rather than always
27:33normally it's like seen as the scale
27:35where
27:36you do more hours, but then maybe you're
27:40doing more hours, but are you
27:41necessarily making the amount of money
27:43and you're losing time even if you're
27:45making more money. So, how can you
27:47actually maximize your time and your
27:49money? I love it. So, I love asking this
27:52question to guests. Is there anything
27:53you would have done differently? Is
27:55there anything when you look at your
27:57journey that you think, you know what,
27:59this moment I probably could have done
28:01this.
28:05>> Um
28:06it's a good question.
28:09I wouldn't have done different anything
28:10differently because I am who I am
28:12because of all the things I did today,
28:14but if I wanted if I had the chance, I
28:17think I would have
28:19learned sales earlier in my life and
28:22also
28:24hired
28:25coaches and mentors earlier in in my
28:28life. Like I've always had mentors and
28:30I've always been a mentor to people, and
28:32I've mentioned this a few times over
28:33this call over the episode already. And
28:36I
28:37obviously value it, but learning from
28:39other people's experiences is extremely
28:42helpful to not make the same mistakes
28:44that they have done. So, obviously I
28:45read a lot of books and and and learn
28:47from that as well.
28:48>> There's so much we can learn from other
28:49people.
28:50>> Yeah.
28:50>> It's so inspiring hearing what you've
28:53achieved and your journey and the sort
28:57of bravery to go against the grain,
28:59right? Because when we think of lawyers
29:01as a whole, yes, there might be more
29:03pockets of people doing unusual things,
29:06but overall it is an industry that does
29:08feel quite set in its ways. For someone
29:11watching this now, they're in their
29:14organization, whatever it might be, and
29:16they're like, "I work for myself and
29:17work from anywhere." What is one step
29:20that they could take today?
29:24It's a big question, but I always like
29:26to break it down and think, "What is the
29:28one small thing that you can do now to
29:30get started on that path?"
29:34>> It's a big question, but I'll simplify
29:36it and I'll I'll come back to something
29:38that I said earlier, leveraging the
29:40power of social media, especially
29:41LinkedIn. Like, I read a lot of people's
29:43posts on there on LinkedIn, and it's
29:45obvious to me that 90% of people don't
29:48know how to leverage social media to
29:50their advantage. Like, there is a way to
29:52do it. There is a right way to use
29:54LinkedIn. Most people scroll and
29:56consume, and only a few use it to
29:58generate clients. So, master the game so
30:01you can leverage it in your in your life
30:02and in your business. I think that would
30:04be the first step. Learn or get coaching
30:07on that. That's
30:09a very easy step because once you have
30:11that network, once you develop that,
30:15you'll be able to gain clients a lot
30:16more easy easily, and you'll you'll have
30:19your work on your personal brand, which
30:20is extremely extremely important in
30:222026.
30:24>> Now, someone watching this might say,
30:25"But Ari, how? How?" And I'm sure that's
30:28a whole other conversation, but I would
30:29love to know, are there any hacks or any
30:32things that you've seen work for your
30:34own content? Because I think now,
30:36especially with the recent LinkedIn
30:38algorithm changes, et cetera, is there
30:40any piece of advice that you can give to
30:42founders who are looking to build their
30:44personal brand on LinkedIn?
30:47>> Uh yeah, I just can get very granular,
30:49but learn how to write a
30:51a very nice good hook because on
30:54LinkedIn you're you're competing with a
30:55lot of people. A lot of people are are
30:57posting, so you have to learn how to
30:59capture attention with that first line
31:01or with a picture or a video. Uh so you
31:03have to learn how to write a very nice
31:06hook so that you engage the audience so
31:08that they click on see more and then
31:10they actually read your post and then
31:11and engage with it and then have a good
31:13call to action. Because on LinkedIn
31:15you're talking to a non-captive
31:18audience, right? You're talking to
31:19someone who's kind of scrolling and
31:20doing something at the same time.
31:22They're talking to maybe while talking
31:23to their wife or watching TV. You really
31:25have to your your your post has to
31:28stand out for them to really be
31:29interested and stop and and read it. So
31:32the hook is where where it starts.
31:34>> Mhm.
31:35Yes. And I think using sort of emotive
31:39words in the hook maybe can be quite
31:41powerful. I think some of the AI generic
31:44hooks are not really going down as as
31:47well as they used to. Five things I
31:50learned about X used to be the type of
31:52thing that people click see more on. Now
31:54not anymore. I mean, on the hook point,
31:56is it using kind of storytelling? Is it
31:59like bringing in emotion? Having like a
32:01teaser?
32:03>> Storytelling definitely works. I use
32:04storytelling all the time. Uh people
32:06love stories. They they they enjoy from
32:09since the dawn of time we humans like
32:11stories. So definitely and so I think uh
32:15starting somewhere in the middle of your
32:16story is also interesting. Uh it's a
32:18good way to hook someone in. Uh
32:21basically, if you don't want to
32:22tell your story in a
32:24chronological order because the first
32:26part may be a little boring. So you want
32:27to put something A lot of times I'm
32:29writing a post and I take one of the
32:31middle lines that I wrote and I put it
32:32at the top and say, "Okay, this is the
32:34hook because this is going to engage the
32:35audience." So start with a suspens
32:38suspenseful part maybe or some usually
32:40works.
32:42There's a bunch of strategies, but uh
32:44yeah.
32:45>> That's really useful. It is tempting,
32:47isn't it, to just write
32:50sort of like how you think about it in
32:51your head chronologically. The other
32:53thing I've been told is don't give
32:55everything away in the hook. I've been
32:56definitely guilty of that. So, I'm like,
32:58I want people to know the point
32:59immediately, but if they know the point,
33:02they lack that curiosity which you're
33:03talking about to actually click see more
33:05and read more. I love it. This is
33:07honestly been so interesting and so many
33:10different areas that we've touched on
33:12whether that's sort of breaking out of
33:14your traditional path, being a digital
33:16nomad lawyer, future of work, what makes
33:19someone succeed in business. Is there
33:22anything else that you wanted to add in
33:24this conversation that maybe we haven't
33:26touched on?
33:27>> I think believing in your yourself and
33:29having faith, that's been very important
33:32for me as well.
33:33I think that has helped me a lot to
33:37believe in the greater good, believe
33:39that there's something more powerful and
33:41believe in um
33:43have a leading a purposeful life. I
33:45think that has been
33:46that has helped me not to follow the
33:48traditional path and and and basically
33:51follow my dreams. I think if you have
33:52that, you you you'll be all right.
33:55>> Meaning and purpose. Such
33:58simple words, but ones that are so
34:00powerful and that carry so much weight.
34:02Okay, quick fire endings. I always ask
34:04these. If you've watched any of the
34:06previous episodes, you'll already know
34:07what they are, but anyway, um one word
34:09to describe your career.
34:13>> Uh fun.
34:14>> Nice. A book, podcast, or resource that
34:18has changed your thinking.
34:21>> The Millionaire Fastlane. It's a book.
34:24>> The Millionaire Fastlane, interesting.
34:26A daily habit or ritual that you swear
34:29by.
34:31>> Working out.
34:34>> This show is called Breaking Boundaries.
34:36What boundary do you want to break next?
34:40>> Mhm, what boundaries do I want to break
34:41next? I feel like I've broken way too
34:43many of them already.
34:44>> You really have. Yeah, as I said in the
34:45introduction, you're kind of like the
34:47epitome of what the show is about.
34:50>> Making every single uh firm in the world
34:52stop billing clients by the hour.
34:55Totally impossible, but uh do you wanted
34:57a boundary, I gave you one.
34:58>> Yeah, we heard it here, folks. Any
35:01[laughter] lawyer firms listening, this
35:03is it. Amazing. Well, thank you so much,
35:05Ari. This has been brilliant. For anyone
35:07watching this now who wants to work with
35:09you, learn more about you, connect,
35:11where should they go? I'm imagining it
35:13might be LinkedIn, but tell me
35:14otherwise.
35:17>> You are not wrong. LinkedIn it is.
35:19>> Amazing. Thank you so much for your
35:20time.
35:22>> Thank you, Nuala. I really appreciate
35:23this. You're great.
35:25That's it.

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