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He Died Twice — Brought Back To Life With A Message For Humanity | David A. Williamson — Transcript

by Dr. Mayim Bialik · 22,471 words · 3,480 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00I've died multiple times. I drowned at
0:02[music] age six under the water three or
0:04four minutes. I was 39. I had a heart
0:06attack. I watched the guy defibrillate
0:08me. I could still see the people. I
0:10could still hear everything.
0:11>> You witnessed [music] something source.
0:13>> I heard you killed yourself with your
0:14personality. Whether I'm in danger or
0:17dying, [music] this voice speaks to me.
0:19It guides me through the trauma.
0:20>> David A. Williamson died, [music]
0:22witnessed himself being brought back to
0:24life, and shares with us how the
0:26experience released him from his
0:27attachment to hate and anger.
0:29>> I saw the KKK brainwashing my [music]
0:31family and did age five. I absorbed it
0:33all. This energy of hate. I was an angry
0:35guy that overwhelmed my nervous system,
0:38my body, and my organs, and I died. I
0:40died because I hated this place. When
0:41[music] I came back, and those thoughts
0:43and that attachment was there, I felt
0:45like I was fixed.
0:46>> It's as if your brain rewired.
0:48>> There's no pain, no confusion, no
0:50anxiety. I know now that [music] my
0:52attention creates my experience. I put
0:53my attention on hopeful ideas. There is
0:55no alone. You are one with everything.
0:57[music]
0:58>> What do you remember of leaving your
0:59body?
1:00>> The first thought I had
1:06>> [music]
1:09>> Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.
1:10>> And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
1:11>> And welcome to our breakdown.
1:13Wow, have we got an episode for you
1:15today? Uh I know so many of you are are
1:17interested in near-death experiences,
1:20and um
1:22we we have the opportunity to speak
1:24today to David A. Williamson, who uh
1:28about 10 years ago was suffering from a
1:32variety of heart-related issues, which
1:36resulted in him having a heart attack
1:37and a tear in his aorta, and um
1:41he died. He died, and he witnessed
1:43himself
1:44brought back to life, but the experience
1:46that he had in this process not only
1:50changed the way he
1:52returned to life, but changed the way
1:54his brain really viewed himself, other
1:57people, his relationships. Uh it's one
1:59of most profound uh shifts that we have
2:02ever heard from a near-death experience.
2:05What's particularly unusual about this
2:08NDE is
2:10when David died in the hospital about 10
2:12years ago, it was actually not the first
2:14time he had died. When he was 6 years
2:16old, he experienced an unbelievable NDE
2:19related to drowning. He believes that it
2:21was some of those experiences that
2:24actually carried over into the NDE that
2:26would happen decades later.
2:28>> David describes what he experienced in
2:30the afterlife, the black void that he
2:33saw, the light, the beings, and what he
2:36saw at the edge of the universe.
2:39>> David A. Williamson, welcome to the
2:41breakdown.
2:42>> Break [singing] it down.
2:45>> Thank you for having me.
2:46>> You come highly recommended not just as
2:49an NDE survivor, but as a human being
2:51from our friend Betty, and we're so glad
2:54to um
2:55to get to talk with you. So, David,
2:57maybe you can um take us back 10 years
3:01or so
3:03um to what your life was like, where you
3:06were living, a little about where you
3:08grew up. Uh yeah, who who's David?
3:10>> Yeah, I'll go back cuz I drowned at age
3:136. And in the most popular video, I
3:15didn't really even remember it. Wow.
3:17Well, I didn't recall it as a trauma,
3:19you know, because I didn't integrate it
3:20as a trauma. But as a kid, I was in
3:23Yanceyville, North Carolina.
3:25Um
3:26like Huck Huck Finn. Like everything was
3:28I was in nature all the time. I loved
3:30being in nature. I I used to dig holes
3:32in the ground, and and anything I found
3:34was a treasure to me, and I would
3:36instead of using lunchboxes for lunch, I
3:38had rocks and bugs and all these
3:40treasures that I would collect, and I
3:42would keep them there.
3:43Um everything was magical to me as a
3:45child. Um
3:47I felt I had I had spiritual gifts as a
3:49child. I was I had lucid dreams often. I
3:52thought I was a bird. Um I had um
3:56sleep paralysis, which I didn't like,
3:58but I learned how to manage. Um Um,
4:00heard people's thoughts. Uh I could feel
4:02what people were feeling. I knew when
4:03adults were lying. And I didn't So, I
4:06lost respect for authority very early,
4:08you know? And um
4:10uh and I just figured that I had to
4:11figure stuff out. And uh and that's my
4:14mom I would I would my mom would send me
4:15to people when I had questions. My uncle
4:17was a uh
4:19a bishop, I think, at the time. A
4:20deacon. A deacon at the church at the
4:21time. And um
4:23and I would ask him questions. And the
4:25questions the answers I didn't ever
4:26really like, you know? And she would ask
4:28me, "Did you get your questions
4:29answered?" answered and I would like,
4:31"Nah, but I'll find the answers."
4:33Because I always knew that if I
4:35dug for stuff, I would figure it out.
4:37Like, it's the same as digging holes in
4:38the ground. If I dug, I would find
4:40something, always. And I And that So, my
4:43effort I would say the effort to just
4:44learn and grow and understand reality
4:47was my mom encouraged it. She always
4:49bought me books. Uh there was these I
4:52think Publishers Clearing House where
4:53you buy uh
4:54>> [laughter]
4:55>> it'd be five books for five cents or
4:56something like that. And it was a lie
4:58cuz you had the the processing So, it'd
5:00turn into about 40 bucks. And And I
5:02thought every time that it was
5:04uh
5:05actually I thought that it was five
5:08cents. So, and she did it for me every
5:10single time.
5:11>> Wow.
5:11>> And uh I didn't know how much money she
5:13was spending on these books. But the
5:14books that I was asking for even at
5:16five, six were like uh The Secret
5:18Teachings of Christ, the Gnostic
5:19[laughter] like Gnostic texts, you
5:22And I And um just religious like
5:24religious stuff. I was raised Christian
5:26and then I just wanted to understand it.
5:28I didn't want to just believe it. I
5:29wanted to understand and it. And most
5:31people were like, "Certain things you
5:32don't you're not supposed to
5:33understand." And I hated that. Because I
5:35was like, "At what point do you stop
5:36trying to understand before you just say
5:38some things you're not supposed to
5:39understand, you know?" So, for me it was
5:41always, "I'm going to understand it."
5:43>> These are some remarkable abilities
5:45which people who experience NDEs often
5:48report that they had practice in their
5:50childhood, either practice leaving their
5:52body, practice dissociating. Did you
5:55have siblings? Were you the special one
5:57in your family? Like, what was going on
5:59in your house?
6:00>> I had an older brother but my little
6:02sister she was
6:03she was I was 15 when she was born. So
6:06she wasn't around then, but my older
6:08brother was more fun,
6:10funny. And I And honestly, if were not
6:13for him, I don't think I would have I
6:15probably would have left here very early
6:16as a child cuz I didn't I didn't want to
6:18be here. I didn't want to I knew that I
6:20didn't want to be here very early in my
6:21life. And I think that's why I've died
6:24multiple times. I've almost died even
6:27more than the two INDs. And even in the
6:30time where I almost died, I heard a
6:31voice guiding me through the process. So
6:34it's like whether I'm in danger or about
6:36to die or dying, this voice speaks to me
6:39and it it either gives me warnings
6:41or it guides me through the trauma to
6:43where I can say with honesty that there
6:46is no trauma
6:48um that I can point to easily that's
6:51stuck in any way. I have to go dig it up
6:53and figure out how it how it's affected
6:55me because it doesn't it's never a
6:57memory that I'm going to have and be
6:58like, "That was so traumatic." Nothing
7:00was because this voice was always
7:02talking to me through the entire thing.
7:03So nothing was extremely traumatic for
7:05me.
7:06>> What happened when you were six?
7:08>> I went to a summer camp and
7:10saw the kids in the water.
7:13I couldn't swim, but I saw that they had
7:15life jackets on, so I saw a life jacket
7:17on the dock.
7:19No counselor was around. I put it on as
7:21best I could and just ran and jumped as
7:23high as I could in the water.
7:25>> [laughter]
7:25>> And as soon as I hit the water, the life
7:27jacket stayed at the top and I went down
7:29like a rock. And I'm just going down.
7:33I don't even I don't know how to swim at
7:34all and I didn't make any effort to go
7:36up. I just had my arms beside me and I'm
7:39just calm the entire time.
7:41And I was just going down and I'm going
7:43down and I remember having a thought
7:44like I'm not going to be able to hold my
7:45breath for much longer. And
7:48then it was black. You know, everything
7:50was black. And then a voice said, "If
7:52you can touch the bottom, you can push
7:53yourself back up."
7:54>> Oh my god.
7:55>> And I responded to the voice, "I'm just
7:57going down. It doesn't seem like I'm
7:58going to touch the bottom." And then I
8:00floated back up. And as I'm floating
8:02back up, I became conscious again cuz I
8:04could see the light coming through the
8:05top of the water at some point. And then
8:07I saw a splash. And when I saw the
8:09splash, the the ripples of the water
8:12radiated from the splash, and the light
8:13shining through captivated me as a
8:15child, and I stared at it for a while.
8:18Like drowning, none of that was in my
8:19mind. I was still under the water, but
8:21that
8:22held my attention so intensely that I
8:24stared at it. And what I could see in
8:27hindsight is that it was the circle and
8:28the dot, the radiating circle that's the
8:30symbol of life in all cultures. Like all
8:33over this world, a circle and a dot is a
8:34symbol of life and creation.
8:36I didn't know that then, but it meant
8:38something to me, and I and it stuck.
8:40>> Sorry, did somebody pull you out of the
8:42water?
8:42>> Pulled me out of the water. I sat on the
8:44edge of a dock, and I sighed. I got
8:46coughed twice,
8:47>> [laughter]
8:48>> and I sighed. There was no pumping
8:50water. There was nothing like that. And
8:53but I turned around and I looked behind
8:54me, and it was chaos. Like people were
8:56crying and passing out. There were
8:57people running down from the top of the
8:59hill to the water cuz everybody thought
9:00I was dead.
9:01I asked my brother 2 years, 2 and 1/2
9:04years ago, I said, "Were you there when
9:05I went under the water?" And he said,
9:07"Yeah." He said, he said, "Everybody
9:10thought you were dead." He said, "People
9:11passing out, screaming." He said,
9:13"They were looking at me." He was eight.
9:14He was 2 and 1/2 years older than me. He
9:16said, "They were looking at me like I
9:17was supposed to do something." I
9:18couldn't swim, either.
9:20I wasn't going to jump in and save you.
9:22You know, it was like I didn't know what
9:23to do. And I asked him, I said, "Well,
9:24how long was I under the water?" And he
9:26said it was no less than 3 or 4 minutes.
9:28>> But that's all it takes to die.
9:30>> Yeah, I couldn't hold my breath for a
9:31minute and a half. You know, we used to
9:33time it. We used to count have
9:34competitions
9:35>> as a kid.
9:36>> Before we had cell phones, we just had
9:37contests on how long you
9:39>> [laughter]
9:39>> How long can you go without blinking?
9:41That was a game on the bus.
9:42>> Exactly. We did that. So, I knew that a
9:45minute and about 30 seconds was around
9:47my
9:47So, when he said he said, "No less than
9:493 or 4 minutes." He said, "Everybody
9:51thought I was dead." He said, "It was It
9:53was just, you know, people were
9:55It was It was like the crying." And he
9:57said the screaming. He said it was from
9:58people who just thought I was dead.
10:00>> And you were just You had some calm.
10:02>> I was It was never traumatic at all.
10:04>> I'm fascinated by like
10:07who pulled you out?
10:08>> That splash was a pull.
10:10>> Oh.
10:10>> Yeah, and I grabbed it. After I stared
10:12at it for a while, I grabbed it and I
10:14got pulled out. Yeah.
10:16>> You had to come back, right? Like you
10:18were It was dark and then that process
10:20and then you had to make a decision
10:23there in in some way like to have the
10:25wherewithal.
10:26>> Yeah.
10:27>> Yeah, to grab that.
10:28>> And I don't know, honestly, and this
10:30kind of is the the feeling that I have
10:32about um
10:34as a child, I know I didn't want to be
10:35here. And I maybe the pause was, you
10:38know, was that like uh
10:41maybe I'm just going to stay, you know,
10:42because I definitely paused for a while
10:44before I grabbed the pole. Um I don't
10:46remember the thinking, but I do remember
10:48being captivated by those rings and um
10:51not really interested in coming out of
10:53the water at that moment, you know.
10:57>> [music]
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14:08>> [music]
14:09>> What did hearing lies and knowing
14:13someone was lying feel like? How did you
14:15tell that they were
14:17lying?
14:18>> It feel like tension. It feel like It
14:20felt like um
14:22noise. It felt almost like a
14:25like a you when you're talking in the
14:26microphone too close and you get
14:27feedback.
14:28>> Yeah.
14:28>> It's kind of like that. They're They're
14:30saying something and then there's
14:31something
14:32strikes it.
14:34It's like that's not true, you know, and
14:36I and I knew it's not true.
14:38Um
14:39sometimes I literally heard words like
14:41people's thoughts and um
14:43um
14:44I prayed after I drowned at age six, a
14:46lot of weird stuff was happening to me
14:47afterwards. So, I prayed at age seven um
14:50to take all my spiritual gifts. I asked
14:52God.
14:53I said, "Please stop allowing me to know
14:54things that I'm not supposed to know."
14:56You know, and uh because it didn't
14:58really give me peace, you know, so I
15:00didn't want any of the spiritual I
15:02didn't I said, "And please stop um
15:06making it to where I can't get up when I
15:07wake up." You know, I didn't know the
15:08word sleep paralysis but I knew I was
15:10stuck when I wake up a lot. Um I didn't
15:14want any of it. I didn't want any of it.
15:16>> no prophet does.
15:17>> Yeah.
15:18>> [laughter]
15:19>> I mean, that's [clears throat] Jonah
15:20fled, right? Job, right? Every great,
15:23you know, challenging set of
15:25information.
15:26>> Yeah, it just confused me and I and what
15:29I said to God was, "If it's not clear,
15:31keep it. I don't want to know. I don't
15:33want anything I have to interpret. Just
15:35clear. If I don't understand it, I don't
15:37want to hear it." You know, and most of
15:39my life is with spirit is if I don't
15:42understand it, I don't really pay
15:43attention to it. And um for me the point
15:46is to ground it. I want to ground it. I
15:47want to understand it. And um some of it
15:50some of that tendency I think comes from
15:52just memories of previous lives even to
15:55where I understood this stuff. And it's
15:57like now this life doesn't send it
15:59certain spiritual knowledge to where
16:00it's like
16:02I'm just remembering it now. It's not a
16:04It's cuz it's not being presented in
16:05this time in the way that it was in
16:07older times. And uh so I remember stuff.
16:11And um I have to ground it. I don't I
16:13don't like to just say stuff that I hear
16:15um
16:16because it sometimes ain't grounded, you
16:18know, um,
16:20but I really do have a mystical type
16:22experience, but my orientation more is,
16:24um, I was so, um, traumatized by
16:29the mystical stuff when I was a kid to
16:31where, um, my adult orientation is
16:34receive the mystical information, make
16:36it make sense, like integrate it and
16:37ground it versus receiving information
16:40and then screaming from the rooftops.
16:42You know, yeah, because you will get
16:43judged. Uh, you have to integrate
16:46information, mystical information into
16:47the time that you're in or you will be a
16:50pariah.
16:51>> What this makes me think of is when we
16:53spoke to Dr. Pasulka, um, Diane Walsh
16:56Pasulka, who talks about how,
16:59you know, maybe the language of our
17:00times, for example, talks about aliens,
17:03but maybe thousands of years ago we
17:04talked about angels, right? It's like
17:06whatever the language is that we try and
17:08like wrap our head around, like what if
17:10it's the same God, the same spirit?
17:13>> Yeah, I like even with alien talk, I
17:15know we I got away from the end of
17:16Easter, but even with alien talk, I, um,
17:20there I mean, some of the words from
17:22ancient texts it has nothing to do with
17:24alien, you know, it's lords,
17:27uh,
17:28some of them are very specific too,
17:30though, and could be alien, like sky
17:32people, people from the sky, uh,
17:34like so but the but we've turned it into
17:36a lot of imaginative stuff and and a lot
17:38of the translations, um, they're just
17:40not
17:41they're not accurate. I mean, we've gone
17:43uh, this this information has been uh,
17:45available to humanity for the at least
17:4712,500 years, you know, um,
17:52we just tell bad story. We turn them
17:54into personal trauma narratives and turn
17:56each other against each other instead of
17:58uh, assimilating information back into a
18:00coherent uh, one humanity story, which
18:03it was in my opinion in the beginning,
18:05the oldest stories
18:07didn't separate us from each other. It
18:09was humanity was who was being spoken
18:11to, you know, and that's my orientation
18:14especially after the second
18:16that I remember uh,
18:18that it was oneness. Like I
18:20there is um, the things that even
18:22angered me in my life that led to my
18:24death
18:25stopped mattering because
18:27those things were based upon the
18:28assumption that I am something other
18:30than you. And versus we are a part of a
18:33system and we are one in it.
18:35>> Okay, so let's go back. You said a lot
18:37of things started happening after this
18:39drowning. Can you give us some examples
18:41of some other experiences you had and
18:43how, you know, little you made sense of
18:45them?
18:45>> Um
18:47I was seeing the Hiroshima and Nagasaki
18:50like the nuclear bombs exploding and it
18:53felt like I was there. And
18:55my mother would say that my body would
18:58go stiff and I would just be repeating
18:59over and over, I don't want to die. I
19:00don't want to die. I don't want to die.
19:01I don't want to die.
19:02But in those in that state for me, I was
19:05there. Like, I was in this place seeing
19:08explosions, hearing screams, and it was
19:12scary.
19:12>> Was it something you had read or seen
19:14about?
19:15>> I used to think that the only reason I
19:17even had that memory was because I used
19:18to read a lot and it was I read about
19:20Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But my mother
19:22said that you were going into a like a
19:25seizure while you was. And in that
19:27seizure is when I was having these
19:28memories. It wasn't
19:30reading a book. You know,
19:32it's likely that I read about it cuz I
19:34read everything as a kid. I read
19:35dictionaries, bibles, encyclopedias. I
19:37read everything. And
19:40but
19:41being seeing that seeing Hiroshima and I
19:44don't know whether it was Hiroshima
19:45Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I just knew that
19:46I was in Japan.
19:48>> And it was a nuclear
19:48>> it was a bomb blowing up and
19:51and it messed me up. At age 12, 13, I
19:55started researching nuclear energy. I
19:57was wondering why we didn't choose
19:59thorium over uranium, you know. And I it
20:02bothered me and it's like the only
20:03reason I even thought about this was
20:05because of the after I drowned at age
20:07six, this memory was stuck in me, you
20:09know. And
20:11um Another thing I was seeing was as a
20:13child I hated seeing dead animals in the
20:15road. I always felt like
20:17there was a better way for us to create
20:18roads and
20:20that wasn't
20:21more in harmony with nature, you know,
20:23and and create cities more in harmony
20:24with nature. I hated it the way that we
20:27we just I hated riding by big deer and
20:30people not even look at it. And I'm
20:32watching it the whole way and
20:33heartbroken, you know? And uh
20:36I was having visions after drowning and
20:38seeing dead bodies on the side of the
20:40road and it was the future and it felt
20:41like America and um and people were
20:44driving by with the same indifference
20:46and it crushed me as a child. So, by the
20:48time I turned 6 or 7 years old, about 7
20:51years old, I checked out of this place.
20:53I did not want to participate in this at
20:55all. My mother loved me and protected
20:59me. That is the only reason I think I
21:01probably didn't take my life even as a
21:03child cuz I thought about not being here
21:05a lot as a child. I didn't want to be
21:07here, you know? But I think my mother
21:10kept me from being a a criminal because
21:12I the anger that I felt was extreme and
21:15she kept me from killing myself, you
21:17know? And um
21:20But
21:21um
21:21I saw the KKK marching up and down the
21:23street at age five uh
21:26up until probably seven uh is when I was
21:29became more rare to see it and um
21:32and uh that angered me. Like I saw it
21:35looking up at my family screaming at
21:37them and seeing them screaming at my
21:39family and
21:40uh everybody on the sidewalk and them in
21:42the street marching down the main street
21:44and police officers keeping us from each
21:46other. It's just violent and I remember
21:48as a child just looking at everybody.
21:49I'm small. I'm looking up at everybody
21:51like like this is crazy but this must be
21:55normal. Like this is this is normal?
21:56Like we supposed to hate each other like
21:58this, you know? I absorbed it all and I
22:01was probably better at hating than
22:02anybody, you know?
22:04Cuz I terrorized people because I didn't
22:06want to be terrorized. So, I would go
22:08into places carrying this energy of
22:11hate, you know? I I did not want to be
22:14bothered, you know? So, I would rather
22:16people be shaken by me than for them to
22:18think that they could shake me, you
22:20know? So, the anger was just so extreme.
22:22It was
22:23um
22:23I had digestive issues for years.
22:26Lost my gallbladder. And then
22:29that's shortly after that I had
22:30hypertension and then I and I had a
22:32heart attack. But I was born with a
22:34bicuspid aortic valve.
22:36>> Oh.
22:36>> You know, so my heart always beat hard.
22:38And then I get hypertension from anger
22:41and the heart valve exploded. It ripped.
22:44And when it ripped, it ripped into the
22:45heart and they had to do the the Bentall
22:46procedure where they replaced it.
22:48>> I'm in very emotional talking to you.
22:50It's very very
22:52you know, it's a very powerful journey.
22:54You know, you have all of these you
22:56know, mystical supernatural
22:59you know, paranormal you know, kind of
23:01things happening.
23:03Was the anger the persona, you know,
23:07that you describe was that a way to to
23:09try and keep some of this at bay?
23:12Because it seems like you were given an
23:14enormous responsibility spiritually when
23:17you came into this life, right? So I
23:20wonder did those things keep happening
23:22to you or did it morph more into
23:24physical ailments and anger? Like where
23:28did the magic go?
23:30>> Yeah.
23:31Um
23:32I think some of the anger was to because
23:35I wanted to be left alone, you know.
23:38Um
23:40So some of it was just just
23:41demonstrative just to so I could just
23:45come and go as I please without a whole
23:47lot of being bothered, you know. I had
23:50the friends that I had were the friend
23:51the only friends that I really wanted to
23:53have. I didn't really like uh
23:55people thinking that they can approach
23:56me and be my friend. Like I was not open
23:59to that, you know. But the people that I
24:01liked, I liked and I wanted them around.
24:04But the other anyone else it was like
24:06you know, it was it was disruptive to
24:07me. Like in a way that I sometimes said
24:10it is that people were noisy and I
24:12didn't like the noise and also I would
24:14try to stay away from a lot of people.
24:16And the people that I resonated with
24:17mostly were people whose energy was um
24:20predictable. Like I understood it or it
24:23was quiet. You know.
24:26It can be noisy if I understood it. But
24:28I if I don't [clears throat] understand
24:29it, I didn't want a noisy energy around
24:31me at all.
24:33>> From a kind of medical perspective,
24:35right? It's so interesting like
24:38I I I wouldn't
24:39you know, there's so many poetic ways to
24:41describe your heart, right? You know,
24:44you were born with a different kind of
24:45heart. That's your you know, your window
24:48to the world, right? Is your heart and
24:50what you're describing is that the
24:53stress, right? That this world gave you
24:57you know, you had a predisposition,
24:59right? You had a a biological,
25:02physiological predisposition
25:05and because of your experiences, right?
25:07It put strain on this part of you that
25:10otherwise might not have had that
25:11strain.
25:13Describe cuz you had a lot of experience
25:16with you described other ailments.
25:18But the the day that you had a heart
25:21attack, you thought it was just like
25:23your back. Like [laughter] take us to
25:25that So, how old were you? Take us to
25:28that day. You know, had anything else
25:30been going on that was interesting?
25:31>> Yeah, I was 39
25:34and um
25:35and I I turned 40 that year. And
25:37but I was leaving work a normal day. I
25:41was teaching IT courses at a uh
25:45at a like an it's like a
25:48vocational technical college. Yeah, and
25:50um
25:51and I was leaving that day and I and I
25:54remember like it yesterday. There was a
25:56lady that had I I turned in some
25:58paperwork and I went back to my class
26:00and she was still sitting there. So, as
26:01I was walking out, I asked her if she
26:03needed a ride. And she said, "No, my
26:05ride just contacted me. They're they're
26:06close by. Thank you." And I walked out.
26:09I said, "Okay." And I walked out. And
26:10then this guy, I don't remember his
26:12name, but I used to like him. And he
26:14said, "See you tomorrow, Mr.
26:15Williamson."
26:16>> [laughter]
26:16>> And he was so happy to say that. Like he
26:18was excited when he said it. And I
26:20looked at him and I said, "See you
26:22tomorrow." And and I thought I was going
26:24to see him tomorrow. But I left there
26:25and died.
26:26>> [laughter]
26:28>> I remember that because it was like,
26:30I'll see you tomorrow and I and I and I
26:32literally went left. Went home. I I felt
26:35when I said I'll see you tomorrow, I
26:36stepped off the curb and I felt the
26:38sting for the first time in my heart
26:39because when the heart valve ripped, 7
26:42days prior it ripped. And I walked
26:44around with a ripped heart ripped aortic
26:46valve for 7 days and then I had a heart
26:48attack.
26:49>> Okay, so you go home so you feel a
26:51sting. Something's been going on but
26:53nothing big enough to
26:55>> The pain initially when I felt the rip
26:57was in my back and in my shoulder and it
26:59literally felt like my shoulder was
27:01falling off. So I was walking around for
27:03like 3 days like this and then I
27:06integrated the pain to where it was
27:08almost normal.
27:09And and then on that 7th day
27:12um
27:13is things went awry.
27:14>> So you went home from work.
27:15>> I went home from work because I was
27:17I was thinking that it could have been
27:18related in the gallbladder stuff. So I
27:20was like,
27:22you know, my heart's being funny. I'm
27:23kind of catch my breath and
27:25I said maybe I can get I can get home.
27:26This is I can get home. So I'm getting
27:28home. I'm breathing hard. I'm still
27:30feeling for the first time I'm feeling
27:32it in my chest now at that point. And
27:34I'm like, okay, this actually is my
27:35heart. And um
27:37I get home and I'm still not fully
27:38convinced that I'm having a heart attack
27:40or that this is an issue. So I'm like,
27:42maybe if I eat a sandwich or something,
27:43>> [laughter]
27:44>> you know, sandwiches
27:45>> solve most things.
27:47>> So I I make a sandwich and I I'm like
27:50halfway finished with the sandwich and
27:51>> Are you living alone at the time? Are
27:53you
27:53>> my son my son's mother and I we're
27:55living together and
27:57she was working from home. And so I just
28:00yelled up to her. I was like, I need to
28:01go to the emergency room. I think I'm
28:02having a heart attack. Luckily, she was
28:04working from home, you know, cuz my dumb
28:06self would have probably figured like,
28:08let me just sit here and breathe deeply
28:10and
28:11it'll stop, you know, but she took me to
28:13the emergency room and when I got there,
28:16I was very close to death at that point
28:19and the guy was trying to get me to sign
28:20paperwork and I I cussed him out. I My
28:23hands was shaking. I was like, what kind
28:25of paperwork you think I'm going to be
28:26able to sign?
28:26>> [laughter]
28:27>> I said I'm dying, man. I'm in a heart
28:28attack. I cussed him out. I didn't say
28:30that those words are nice compared to
28:32what I said to him. But um but but as
28:34soon as I started cussing him out, the
28:36doors opened and a gurney came out. So,
28:37he had already called the people and I
28:39apologized to him later because I felt
28:43uh
28:43after the NDE, I felt like that behavior
28:46was just terrible.
28:48>> And I'm not at you can say you can use
28:50whatever curse words you want. I'm
28:51curious, when you're a when you were
28:54actively dying, what are the things that
28:57you yell at the dude at the front desk
29:00of a hospital?
29:01>> Like like
29:04like
29:05>> Meaning you were at a level of like
29:06anger that was right.
29:08>> extreme. I was like, "The are you
29:09putting these papers in front of me for?
29:10I'm not I can't sign anything."
29:13>> You know, I'm just shaking them in
29:14>> bad state.
29:16>> [laughter]
29:17>> I was angry. And he looked and he just
29:20did he didn't even really he kind of
29:22just
29:22>> Yeah.
29:23>> still had to pay and the doors open and
29:24I He didn't care. You know, it didn't
29:26bother him, but cuz even when I
29:27apologized to him, he was like, "Man,
29:29people come in here dying." He said,
29:32"I'm not going to judge that what you
29:34what you say when that state, you know."
29:36>> Okay, so the gurney comes out.
29:38>> And I less than 20 seconds after being
29:40on the gurney, I was gone. I remember
29:42getting on it, going through those first
29:43doors, and then seeing a curve, and I'm
29:45taking this curve and I see the doors,
29:48the double doors that I end up that I go
29:49through for where they defibrillate me
29:51and all that stuff. But, um I see those
29:54doors, but but I remember
29:56I knew I just felt tired. So, I remember
29:59rolled it over with my left side and I
30:00put my hands up like that and I was
30:02like, "The last thought I had before I
30:04closed my eyes was this is going to be
30:05some amazing sleep."
30:08And uh for me in that moment, what it
30:10felt like was I went to sleep. But, as
30:13soon as I closed my eyes, uh nothing
30:15stopped. Like nothing stopped. It was
30:17>> What do you mean?
30:18>> Like I kept experiencing I got closed my
30:20eyes like I was going to sleep, but
30:22people were I could still see the
30:23people, but it wasn't it was blackness,
30:26but I could see dots of light where the
30:27people were standing. I could still hear
30:29everything, but it was like underwater.
30:32Um
30:33nothing really stopped. Like I was still
30:35experiencing myself inside of a body,
30:37but it felt like the body like I'm an IT
30:39guy. It felt like the body was in a
30:40shutdown process and everything was
30:42strange. Like the like the first scene
30:46Uh oh well, once I got inside of the
30:48room
30:49through those doors, I started coming
30:51out of my body and I could see from the
30:52above now.
30:54>> Had this happened to you before?
30:56>> Not like that. Like the dreams like the
30:58lucid dreaming. Yeah.
30:59>> Right, but what does that feel like to
31:00like what do you remember of leaving
31:02your body?
31:02>> It was almost instant and then and it
31:05was seamless. I I could where I I was
31:08watching them
31:09uh
31:10from
31:11what was like a this angle cuz I was
31:13laying in the gurney. I was watching
31:15them that way and I could see the dots
31:17of light. I couldn't see people. It was
31:18just dots of light where the people were
31:20and then boom, I was looking down and I
31:22could see where the people were where
31:23the dots of light were where the dots of
31:25light were. So, I knew that that's all
31:27those dots of light were where the
31:28people were standing, you know?
31:29>> And you're thinking this whole time?
31:31>> Yeah. And the first thought I had when I
31:34came out of my body, it was like a human
31:35thought even. It was like, "Ah, so this
31:37is how it happens." You know?
31:39And then that went away and then I was
31:41and then I looked at I couldn't really
31:42see my body cuz there was so many people
31:44around me, but I had no interest in my
31:45body. I was looking at everything
31:47around, the people, watching them
31:49defibrillate, watching everything. And
31:51um
31:52uh I heard a phrase said, "He's dead.
31:55You used to live there."
31:57And uh
31:58his body, his mind, and his ego is dead.
32:01And I responded uh same as when I was a
32:04kid and he said touch the you if you
32:05could touch the body you could I said,
32:07"Well, what am I now?" You know? Because
32:09I'm still experiencing, you know? And uh
32:11and all of the words came in at the same
32:13time. It was like light, uh love,
32:16consciousness, awareness, soul, spirit.
32:19Um
32:20and uh I understood that. And um the
32:22next phrase that I heard was, "You
32:24killed yourself with your personality."
32:26And I completely understood that. And uh
32:29and then I remember having a thought
32:32like
32:33It was like a really brief thought, but
32:35it was like uh
32:36"Dang, you blew it."
32:38It wasn't It wasn't like sadness. It was
32:42like realizing that I had this
32:43opportunity and I didn't take it, but
32:46I'm in a perfect state now, so there's
32:47no
32:48woe is me. It's more like, "Dang, I just
32:50missed that. That was a a life that I
32:52could have lived that I spent
32:54the bulk of it just mad at the entire
32:56planet and not wanting to be there." And
32:58it's like I felt like I wasted that
33:00life.
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36:04>> [music]
36:06>> That will watch the guy defibrillate me.
36:09Um
36:09>> Like were people freaking out? What's it
36:10like when someone dies in the room?
36:12>> There was a woman sitting in the back of
36:14the room in the last and she was holding
36:15her face like this. Like she was either
36:18new
36:19um but she wasn't involved in the
36:20resuscitation.
36:21>> Like a nurse or something?
36:22>> Maybe. But she just sit she sat there.
36:23Maybe she was the person to record the
36:25time of death. I don't know. But she
36:26just sat there. But she was distraught
36:28and I kept trying to talk to her. Like I
36:30literally was in her face. In my mind, I
36:32was in her face trying to communicate
36:34with her. She couldn't hear me or see
36:35me. But I was trying to explain to her
36:37that this experience was beautiful and I
36:39had never experienced nothing this
36:41beautiful and there's no pain, there's
36:43no confusion. Like you shouldn't be sad.
36:45You know, he's dead. That body is dead,
36:46but I'm right here. I'm right here
36:48talking to you like I
36:49I wanted her to hear me. And
36:51I almost feel I didn't know almost, like
36:54I knew that if I stayed there long
36:56enough, I would have learned how to talk
36:57to her. I would have learned how to make
36:59her hear me. That's what I truly felt,
37:00like I could have made her hear me. And
37:03and the guy holding the defibrillator
37:04pads, he was I hear these thoughts.
37:07These were the thoughts and
37:08>> You could hear people's thoughts?
37:09>> was blaming himself for the whole thing.
37:11Like it was like if I if this guy dies,
37:13it's my fault. It's
37:15I was trying to tell him that if I don't
37:17come back to this body, it's my choice.
37:19It's not your fault. I wanted him to
37:20know that it's nothing it ain't got
37:23nothing to do with him, you know.
37:25>> Also, let him keep trying.
37:27>> Yeah. And there were other people,
37:29right? And none of them those people
37:31seemed to be the way that I felt it at
37:34first when I came back, the way I
37:35described it was they just didn't have
37:38they weren't they weren't emotionally
37:39invested, you know, but the way that I
37:41look at it now was they weren't
37:43emotional. They were just focused on
37:45saving me and they saved me. So, if they
37:47had been in there shaking shaking up
37:49like the woman holding her face, and
37:51even the guy with the defibrillator
37:52pads, I think he was keeping his cool,
37:54but he was he was shook up. But if those
37:56other people had been as shook up as
37:58those two, I probably wouldn't have made
37:59it, you know. So, those people that I
38:02initially thought were not caring, they
38:05were just focused and there was no huge
38:07emotional signature.
38:08>> Yeah.
38:09>> You know, so I didn't I didn't have to
38:11pay attention to them, you know.
38:12>> That's interesting just as a as a side
38:14note, you know, it takes all different
38:16kinds of people, right? And when I look
38:19at, you know, people who
38:21you know, firefighters, right? People
38:23who run towards a tragedy or or even
38:25just everyday people, right? There are
38:27certain people who have the capacity
38:30to not have a like for me, like
38:33everything is difficult. You don't want
38:35me being a firefighter.
38:36>> [laughter]
38:37>> You barely want me like making breakfast
38:39in the morning, you know.
38:40>> Yeah, but as a neuroscientist though,
38:43>> Well, but it's
38:44>> No, well [laughter] well, I think it's
38:46funny because I wanted go to medical
38:48school and I wanted to be a surgeon.
38:49>> Yeah.
38:50>> But I I did not have steady hands.
38:53>> Yeah.
38:53>> And I think part of it was that I did
38:55not have that personality. And that's
38:57why when you meet neurosurgeons and
38:59fighter pilots, right? They've got a
39:01very like specific personality because
39:04you have to be able to regulate that.
39:06But what's interesting to me and other
39:08other people who've spoken to who have
39:10had NDEs have talked about is in that
39:13state that you were in, you were able to
39:15pick up on emotional signatures. You
39:19could almost sense like intensity,
39:22right? And where to take attention.
39:24>> Kind of even how in my life how I chose
39:26friends, it was way more intense out of
39:28the body. It was uh
39:30um that lady's sadness or her uh being
39:34distraught that I was dying.
39:36And I when I was out of my body, she
39:39didn't look how she looked when I came
39:41back to my body. She looked like my aunt
39:44who was in a in a hospice setting at the
39:46time that I was having a heart attack
39:48who had had several heart attacks. So,
39:51she had been back and forth probably
39:52several times. And she was sitting there
39:55and I was
39:56at
39:57loving her. Like, this is my aunt. And
39:59uh
40:00and my aunt is my mother's twin sister.
40:02She died at 2017 uh and later that year
40:05after I had my
40:06uh well, was it that year?
40:09She died that year, I believe. Yeah. Um
40:13Uh she was like a second mother. Uh I
40:16loved her like uh like it was like a
40:18mother.
40:19>> And that's who appeared to you.
40:21>> to be when I was above looking at her.
40:23And uh that would have made me want to
40:25come back. You know, um uh if it was if
40:28I had saw the young lady that I didn't
40:29know, I probably would have tried to
40:30console her still.
40:32But I wouldn't have cared to come back
40:34like how my aunt my aunt convinced me, I
40:36think, to keep my attention there.
40:38>> So, you're watching them defibrillate.
40:41You're watching this whole thing. You're
40:43kind of interacting with this woman and
40:45you're hearing all the thoughts. So, wh-
40:49what ended up happening was a series of
40:51minutes, right? That you were
40:54watching. Did you have any of the sort
40:56of classic NDE things that we talk
40:58about? Was there a tunnel? You know, you
41:00mentioned that there was love, right?
41:01You had that kind of like love spirit
41:03connection. What else happened in that
41:06time?
41:06>> no tunnel. I I was watching all of the
41:09things happening in the emergency room,
41:11trying to communicate with the people.
41:13And then at some point I just kind of
41:15look up.
41:17>> [laughter]
41:18>> And when I looked up, I shot through
41:20It's like I just shot up through space.
41:22It's like I saw the ceiling for a quick
41:24second, and then I was in space. I was
41:26in a void. It's extremely black dense
41:30area, but I knew it was not on this
41:32planet. I knew I was in space. And this
41:35void felt like
41:36it was dense blackness, like a tangible,
41:39like I was moving through this
41:40blackness. It felt like velvet and um
41:42as I was moving through it, and it was
41:44communicating with me the entire time,
41:46like whispers voices, uh images in my
41:48periphery, but when I turned my
41:50attention directly to the images that
41:52were in my periphery, they disappeared
41:53like smoke. And I understood that. Like
41:55I said into myself, I said uh
41:58ah. Everything that I saw that amazed
42:00me, I said ah.
42:02>> [laughter]
42:03>> I said ah. So, um everything is here,
42:05but nothing is here.
42:07And I knew it. I knew that this was like
42:09a source of
42:11a physical reality. It's like a it feeds
42:14this it feeds physical realities. It It
42:17even
42:18is connected to the other dimensions and
42:20it feeds from there. It pulls from
42:22there. I don't understand all of this.
42:23I'm not a scientist. I'm an IT guy, so I
42:25don't get to come here and start telling
42:26people about things that I don't that I
42:28don't have a lived experience. No.
42:30That's why I say I have to ground things
42:31and try to speak about it with people
42:33who are experts and who are scientists.
42:34>> look. I mean,
42:35>> [laughter]
42:36>> you're the ex I mean, you're the expert
42:37in you and your experience. So, but the
42:40the thing that I instantly was drawn to
42:42is
42:43what you're describing is the best
42:44explanation that
42:47rabbis and priests and ministers tried
42:50to give to explain what nothingness is
42:52before God created something. And the
42:55description in the Old Testament is, you
42:57know, how could there be nothing, right?
42:59Meaning like, how do you describe
43:00nothingness? What could nothing be that
43:03gives rise to something? And if
43:04something's nothing, you can't describe
43:06it. But what you're describing is like
43:08the best explanation that I've heard.
43:10It's a dense, you know, blackness that
43:12has no place or space and you can't, you
43:15know, like you witnessed something
43:17source. Like that's the best that I can
43:19understand.
43:19>> It was beautiful. Like it it felt like
43:21home. It felt like for me, I didn't want
43:24to leave the void. But at some point I
43:26started floating out of the void and I
43:28was still was fixated on it. I didn't My
43:30attention didn't go anywhere else but on
43:32the void when I came out and
43:35every
43:36every idea that entered my mind, the
43:38void responded. It would be twirls and
43:41colors and if I had a question, the
43:43clarity would be in curl the in the void
43:45like I would instantly understand it.
43:46>> You were interacting with a
43:48>> Yes. Yes. It and as a child 18 19 years
43:52old, I drew this picture of black holes
43:55in a series because in my mind I was
43:57like they can't be random. Black holes
43:58have to communicate they have to
43:59interact with each other. And I said
44:02there are small black holes that maybe
44:03mobile but these big ones are fixed and
44:05they and they work together.
44:07Like eight or nine years later I read a
44:09paper from NASA [clears throat] that
44:10pretty much confirmed everything that I
44:11was trying to explain with this picture
44:13that I drew. And and I have the picture
44:15that I drew. In my mind these are black
44:17holes. I'm showing what the event
44:18horizon is and I'm showing how the the
44:20energies from each other black hole
44:23interacts at the event horizon.
44:25>> Neil deGrasse Tyson was talking about
44:26that.
44:27>> You're in this void and you mentioned
44:31that you put your attention, your
44:32consciousness back on yourself in the
44:35hospital room
44:37and then that's when they revive you.
44:40>> Yeah.
44:40>> Do you think
44:42that it's your attention that reanimated
44:45you or do you feel like you became
44:47reanimated and then it sucked your
44:49your consciousness back?
44:51>> That's a great question because the best
44:52word to describe what I felt like I was
44:55when I was in space is attention. And
44:57I've said this a lot. I believe that you
45:00can say words like awareness,
45:01consciousness, soul, all this stuff. But
45:03in that state, the
45:05attention was what guided the
45:06experience. Wherever I put my attention,
45:08that's where my experience happened. I
45:10understood everything if once I said ah,
45:13the distance between me and what I
45:15looked at disappeared. Like
45:17um the movie
45:18I always say this because it's this is
45:20the only way I can explain it. Uh
45:22it's the movie The Grudge when the girl
45:24comes out of this well
45:26>> [laughter]
45:26>> and she comes towards you and they make
45:28the distance between her and you
45:29telescopically disappear. The distance
45:31between me and anything that I looked at
45:33and said ah telescopically disappeared.
45:35And I don't know how much space I was
45:37covering, but
45:38if no matter how far away it was, it
45:40would be like three
45:42little shakes and I would be there.
45:44>> The description of how you can move
45:47through time and space without the
45:48limits of space-time.
45:50>> And you could say it's his consciousness
45:52was there.
45:53>> I travel. That's all I wanted to do was
45:54travel. And I I saw the light. I didn't
45:57want to go to the light.
45:58>> What the light look like?
45:59>> A big star.
46:00>> Like yellow, white, red?
46:02>> like brilliant white. Brilliant white.
46:05>> Sparkly?
46:05>> Very. It was
46:08it was like a star. Uh
46:10it looked like a star from far away.
46:12>> Ah.
46:12>> The light for me was extremely far away,
46:15but I knew it was the light.
46:17Cuz I couldn't stop looking at it and it
46:18pulled me towards it if I didn't travel.
46:21If I I wanted to travel. So I just kept
46:23moving around, but if I stopped, I would
46:26float that way.
46:27I didn't want to float that way. So I
46:28just kept traveling.
46:29>> [laughter]
46:30>> I wanted to learn. I wanted to
46:31experience. I wanted to see. And that's
46:33all I did was travel. I saw asteroids. I
46:36saw everything and I wanted to
46:37understand it. I saw asteroid that looks
46:39like an asteroid that NASA has taken
46:41images of. It has a band in the middle
46:42of it. I saw it and I moved around it
46:45and looked at it and I I saw a image of
46:46NASA and it looks like the exact same
46:49asteroid. Um when I came out of the
46:51void, to me that's what it was. It was a
46:54black hole in my opinion. And the reason
46:55why I say that it was because space was
46:58black, but the void was blacker than
47:00space. And there were more than one.
47:01Like I could look out into space and see
47:03several of these voids in different
47:05places.
47:06And um so I understood that it wasn't
47:08just one void. Like, you know, but this
47:10void somehow seemed to be very connected
47:13to this experience. And um and the
47:17reason why I say that is because when I
47:18came out of the void, there was a
47:20star-forming region there and um I
47:22didn't know the word I didn't When I
47:24looked at it, I didn't say, "Ah, there's
47:26a star-forming region." When I looked at
47:27it, I said, "Ah."
47:29And that was it. And then the dis- the
47:30space between me and disappeared and I
47:32was there. But that I was in the kind of
47:34like in the outside in the clouds. And
47:36these clouds were like uh dark red down
47:38and gradiated down to pink to white then
47:40dark blue gradiated down to light blue
47:42to
47:43uh white and then white clouds. But in
47:45the middle of these clouds was faint
47:47forming lights like and I knew that
47:48these were stars.
47:49And and in my and in my awareness there
47:51was like, "These are babies and I
47:53shouldn't disrupt it." It was like a
47:54nursery. And I was I was not going to go
47:56The way that I did with everything else
47:58is that when I said, "Ah," and the space
47:59disappeared, it was almost like just I
48:02zoomed up to it really close. There I
48:04didn't. I stopped at the the edge of
48:06where the stars were forming. And it
48:08felt like a nursery and like I wasn't
48:10supposed to go in there and disturb
48:11that. So I watched it for a while. It
48:13was beautiful to just see the stars
48:15forming. And uh and then I looked up and
48:18I saw that asteroid. Uh The name that
48:20NASA seems to have given this asteroid
48:22is Bennu.
48:24Um it looks like the asteroid that I
48:27saw.
48:28Yeah.
48:29Uh the place that I was at I referred to
48:31it as uh I when I was out of my body, I
48:34said, "Ah, so this is where stars are
48:36born."
48:37The place that our ancestors talked
48:39about even as far even older than Egypt.
48:42They say that this is a star there
48:44called Deneb. It's the brightest star in
48:46the Cygnus constellation. Um a lot of
48:49ancient uh monuments are are designed to
48:53where Deneb is visible, you know. Uh
48:56I was in this place that seemed to be
48:58that area, Cygnus constellation. Just a
49:00month or two ago I found out about
49:02Cygnus and it Cygnus is referred to as
49:04the nursery of the stars.
49:05>> Love it.
49:05>> And um and uh and this is a place where
49:08they uh a lot of ancient cultures say
49:10the soul travels after it leaves here. A
49:12lot of cultures, not just Egyptian, not
49:14just even um
49:15global uh
49:17it's the the culture up in Turkey. I
49:18forgot the
49:19>> Oh, okay.
49:20>> It's old. It's They say it's even older
49:22than Egypt and they have monuments that
49:25are directly uh pointing to the
49:27>> Yeah.
49:27>> Well, I was thinking of also like the
49:28pyramids like in Tikal in Guatemala,
49:31right? Like all the
49:33there so many of them are astro like
49:35astronomy based and yeah.
49:36>> Yeah, so that region is important. It's
49:39the Milky Way. It's part of the Milky
49:40Way. Native Americans speak about it.
49:41It's every culture speaks about it. So
49:44not to even try to make myself seem like
49:46I'm somehow I'm special and I went to
49:48the place, you know, but the description
49:50of it seems to be exactly what our
49:52ancestors speak about.
49:53>> So what's striking to me is that and
49:57this happens, you know, when we talk to
49:59people who have left their bodies in
50:00this way.
50:02This is a lot more than 5 minutes of
50:04information. And like to me this is one
50:06of the most powerful indicators that
50:09something is happening when we die,
50:12right? For people who come back because
50:15whatever experience this is that you're
50:17recounting, it takes
50:21more time than you were actually gone to
50:23experience it, right? This happened with
50:25Elizabeth Krone. She was gone for a
50:28couple minutes, but she said she was
50:30told it was 2 weeks and the experiences
50:33she had took up 2 weeks of time.
50:35>> Yeah, and even there's even more like I
50:38like even when I was watching the the
50:40the light, I realized at some point and
50:43this is when I was getting resuscitated,
50:44but I realized at some point um
50:47uh when I took my attention from the
50:49light, which was up and to the right,
50:50back down into the emergency room, which
50:52was down into the left, then my
50:53attention went through me. So I would go
50:55like this and when I would did that,
50:58my attention went through a orb of light
51:01and I and I it was fascinating to me. It
51:03was one of those odd things. So, I did
51:05it like four times. I went back up. I
51:07went back down. I went [laughter] back
51:09up. And I went through myself each time.
51:11And I was just a glowing orb of light.
51:14And uh I don't know how big I was, but
51:16in the context of space, I felt like a
51:18nano particle. You know, and
51:21but there was no anxiety. Like I've
51:23tried to visualize myself in space um
51:26as this orb of light. And it just feels
51:28like a um
51:29like a lightning bug in a vast
51:31blackness.
51:33It's like it's alone if but there's no
51:36anxiety. There is no alone. You are one
51:38with everything. People speak about
51:40missing family or or some people say,
51:42"Well, I would like to see my mother as
51:45my mother, not an orb of light." You
51:47know, because that's that's not
51:48personal, you know. Um
51:51the experiences that you have outside of
51:53the body
51:55are as full as they need to be. Like you
51:57don't have like the human idea of
51:59missing someone is not possible when you
52:01are one with reality.
52:03>> What you're describing is that we're
52:05souls and we're placed into bodies and
52:08presumably not just one. Doesn't happen
52:10once. Like, you know, the universe has
52:12got some more to go.
52:14So, the the people that you think of as
52:16your parents are the people who
52:17contributed the DNA that formed the
52:20vessel that makes the body that your
52:22soul was put into. But like that's not
52:25really, right? Like that's not really
52:27who any of us are, right?
52:30Like I call that my mom or I call that
52:32my dad, but we're all like souls and
52:36we've been placed here in that
52:37orientation, but there's nothing to say
52:39that in another lifetime, I wouldn't be
52:41the parent and that soul wouldn't be the
52:43child.
52:44>> Yeah, I don't I I was 5 years old and I
52:46asked my mom, "Six, baby, I said if you
52:48died at at age 70 and I died at 97,
52:50would I be older than you in heaven?"
52:52You know.
52:53>> [laughter]
52:53>> I was like six or seven years old,
52:54right? Five, I think, when I asked that
52:56question. But um
52:58But to me, it's
53:00uh
53:03It's It's It's pretty scientific to me.
53:05Like I don't buy into a lot of the
53:07explanations that are out there about
53:09how reincarnation works, about how the
53:12between works, about how we choose, and
53:14and and
53:16I I I think we choose our next life now
53:20with our awareness now. Uh
53:22we're choosing and if you are aware in
53:24this in choosing now, uh the the all of
53:27the process in between, everything is uh
53:29in my opinion is something that you've
53:31kind of laid out. And it it would be
53:33more of a um
53:35it would just be a more graceful
53:37transition. But if you uh uh when you
53:40leave here, if all you have ever did was
53:42immerse yourself in belief, and that's
53:44it, no real understanding of your
53:47autonomy or your agency in this
53:49experience, then you'll probably just be
53:51reincarnated, and that's fine. That's
53:52not It's no punishment, because I've
53:54heard people speak about like it's some
53:56sorrow, the you know, uh illusion of the
53:59cycle of you know, birth and re- death
54:02and rebirth as if it's some punishment.
54:04No,
54:05if if I'm here and I'm lost in this, and
54:10and I think I'm addicted to something
54:11even,
54:12uh and I die addicted to something,
54:15I died wanting to come back here.
54:17That's what that means. If you still
54:19long for things when you leave here, you
54:20want to come back. If you've reconciled
54:22all of that, then you can choose
54:24differently when you leave here. But it
54:26won't But if your spirit is so stuck in
54:29this experience, it other parts of you
54:31are going to return back to this
54:32experience.
54:33>> So then Buddhist notion is you will
54:35repeat it.
54:36>> Yeah.
54:37>> You will repeat it until you escape it,
54:39you know.
54:39>> to me it's not escape.
54:40>> I meant escaping any loop of suffering.
54:43That there's a place Right. Yeah.
54:44>> Yeah. But But
54:46there is no other loop I'd rather be in
54:49than this. And I died hating this place.
54:51I died because I hated this place. But
54:53when I came back, none of those things
54:56were None of those thoughts, none of the
54:58attachment was there. So there's no
55:00better loop to be in than this. So if
55:02you are in this loop and you love tacos,
55:05just don't ever let go of the love of
55:07tacos, and you'll come back and continue
55:08to have experiences with them. If you
55:10love your aunt
55:12and you leave here, you're going to come
55:13back and have experiences with aunts
55:15that you love, you know, like our
55:16attention creates the experience,
55:18period. Our experience our attention, in
55:20my opinion, creates the the content of
55:23the
55:24of the NDE. If all Christians tend to
55:26have Christian NDEs, you know, they all
55:29see Jesus and they all think I'm the
55:30devil because I didn't see Jesus, you
55:32know, and I get a lot of you know grief
55:35from Christians because I don't say God,
55:37I don't say
55:38>> have something better to do than pick on
55:39someone who had an NDE?
55:41>> Boy, is that's I I
55:44is rough. Like there are times when I'm
55:46literally like I'm not the devil. I I'm
55:48not the devil, you know, I'm having to
55:50assure them that I'm not the devil, you
55:51know, it's like I I I just I'm just a I
55:53was an angry guy
55:55that that overwhelmed my nervous system,
55:57my body, and my organs, and I died. Like
56:00in in that process,
56:02uh
56:03I my attachment to the things that
56:05killed me dropped, including identity,
56:07all of the philosophies, all of the
56:09orientations. If it's not about helping
56:11us understand this reality and and and
56:14and emphasizing hope and responsibility,
56:16I don't want to hear it. I don't want to
56:18It's just storytelling. It's bad
56:19storytelling. Anything that's about
56:21anxiety and fear,
56:22I don't It ain't If you If I've died,
56:24what else is there to fear here?
56:26Absolutely nothing. So, if there's
56:28nothing for me to fear here, then no
56:30story of anxiety and fear that
56:32especially if it's projected onto
56:33another group of people or person is
56:35going to ever sit well with me, you
56:37know. I'm not going to fear the people
56:38you want me to fear. They're me.
56:40>> You said something before you started to
56:43describe the entire NDE
56:46that your anger killed you, that your
56:48personality killed you.
56:50>> Yeah. Um
56:52but initially it was digestive issues.
56:54Um not having any internal peace, mental
56:57peace.
56:58You just disrupt normal processes.
57:01Uh I started off with digestive issues,
57:02lost my gallbladder. I went years with I
57:05had When they removed my gallbladder, I
57:06had two stones
57:08this the size of ping pong balls and one
57:11of them was in the neck of the
57:12gallbladder so the pain was
57:14like I would scream and all I could do
57:16was scream sometimes for 3 hours at a
57:18time and then it would go away and I'd
57:19be like, "Okay, let's go back to my
57:20life." I would never go to the doctor.
57:22So
57:23the last time that happened like 8 hours
57:26straight of just throwing up, screaming,
57:28blood pressure spikes.
57:31I was about to die, you know, and I went
57:32to the emergency room and the the doctor
57:34came in and she said
57:36that we got to get your gallbladder out
57:38and that's the first time I saw her and
57:39it made me so mad. I was like, "You've
57:42not run any tests. You walk through the
57:44door, you're talking about cutting me
57:45open and taking out an organ. I was
57:46like, let's do some tests."
57:48I went and did the test and she was
57:49like,
57:51"The surgery is scheduled tomorrow." You
57:53ordered it or it was like a couple days
57:54later, we got to get it out. She just
57:56knew, man, and and it was I thought she
57:59was special for how she came in there
58:01that way and just and was so calm and
58:04and just knew.
58:05>> So some of the anger originally
58:07manifested
58:09kind of in those physiological ways?
58:11>> Very much so.
58:12>> Stomach, you know, these are not
58:14uncommon, right?
58:15>> Yeah, and blood pressure. I would go to
58:17work after I had my gallbladder removed,
58:20I had stitches that were
58:23coming undone. My blood pressure was so
58:24high that I was bleeding through I would
58:26wear three shirts sometimes just to see
58:27it to keep the blood. And I was bleeding
58:30through the stitches through the because
58:31my blood pressure when I got to work, I
58:33would take my blood pressure because I
58:35knew at that point I was dealing with
58:36hypertension. I would take my blood
58:38pressure when I left home or when I was
58:40about to leave home and it would be
58:41normal like 120/108 in in that range and
58:45I'd get to work and as soon as I walked
58:47in it would be 240 over I would sit down
58:49at my desk and it would be 240 over 160.
58:52>> Dumb question, was your work
58:54particularly stressful or or distasteful
58:57to you?
58:57>> It was white people. I hated white
59:00people that much that my body reacted
59:02that way around them.
59:03>> They can be really stupid so I get it.
59:06>> [laughter]
59:06>> In hindsight,
59:08everybody is stupid, you know,
59:10um
59:11and then when you look at like I I was
59:13mad about like colonialism and and
59:15slavery and things like that but I
59:17slavery was a rich rich man's game
59:20very few white families could even
59:22afford slaves. So that's not a white
59:24thing. That's a rich white thing. How
59:26many white people make decisions on who
59:28where we go to Imperial for to colonize
59:31like less than 1% of so it's like I was
59:34projecting
59:36the decision makers the the toxicity
59:38that I felt of before greedy insatiable
59:41people onto the entire race of people
59:44but every person you meet is not that
59:46way and they would not and most people
59:48don't support a lot of the policy they
59:49were even seeing now. So it's like
59:51there's there is no monolith in any
59:53group. So to just throw all of a group
59:55into to under one umbrella is always
59:58going to be to me unmeasured.
1:00:00>> I think it's worth mentioning though
1:00:02were you aware of feeling you know
1:00:04generational
1:00:05trauma? Were you aware of of of bearing
1:00:09you know kind of
1:00:11historical place that you were arriving
1:00:13in?
1:00:14>> grandfather was a sharecropper. My
1:00:17uncles and aunts worked on that
1:00:18sharecropper's farm. So for me my
1:00:21cousins and I are the first generation
1:00:22in our family that effectively out of
1:00:24slavery and so the awareness is there
1:00:27the stories that you hear about
1:00:29growing up on a sharecropper's farm
1:00:32they're not good stories and they're not
1:00:34going to make you feel good about a
1:00:35group of people who made you feel that
1:00:37they you know put you through that you
1:00:38know. So my grandmother would share a
1:00:40lot of stories and it's just
1:00:42all they did was make me more angry you
1:00:44know
1:00:45um
1:00:46um and it justified like I went through
1:00:49I was reading books about
1:00:51the colonization of Africa colonization
1:00:53of
1:00:54and and instead of saying that the
1:00:56the leaders of these nations or the
1:00:58people who were running these nations
1:01:00planned these things it was all white
1:01:02people are colonizers all white people
1:01:04that is and it's just what I learned
1:01:06from my dad is that if you say something
1:01:08is not measured and you can't put you
1:01:11like my a friend of mine who had a NDE
1:01:12that that helped me ground and help me
1:01:14integrate mine If wasn't for him, I
1:01:15probably would have committed suicide
1:01:17after my NDE even.
1:01:19There was a guy named Zachariah. He had
1:01:21an NDE as well and I was a kind of
1:01:23complimentary NDE even.
1:01:26He
1:01:28it just talking to him
1:01:31it really helped me understand like um
1:01:35the importance of like
1:01:37having like virtues. Like some things
1:01:40that happened to people who have NDEs is
1:01:42that uh
1:01:43the we have a different thing it's a
1:01:46different framework sometimes, you know,
1:01:48guiding our behavior.
1:01:50But if you don't have a framework
1:01:51guiding your behavior and you don't have
1:01:53a working amygdala
1:01:57you can do things to hurt people without
1:01:59without understanding it, you know. I
1:02:01know my amygdala got down regulated. I
1:02:03know that's why my personality changed
1:02:05so drastically. I can't I can't point
1:02:07fingers at people anymore. I can't like
1:02:09I can't blame anybody because one thing
1:02:11I noted as soon as I point the finger I
1:02:13lose agency.
1:02:14I can't fix the problem anymore if I put
1:02:16it on someone else.
1:02:18>> I want you to take us back to
1:02:21the room where you were being
1:02:22resuscitated, right? Because I want to
1:02:25get to all these points once we, you
1:02:27know, literally put you back in your
1:02:29body.
1:02:30So
1:02:32you have you have all of these
1:02:33experiences in the in the void as you're
1:02:35describing it which sounds like yeah,
1:02:38some sort of jumping black holes kind of
1:02:40like it's unbelievable.
1:02:42So at some point you're watching them
1:02:46try and literally bring your dead body
1:02:48back to life. How many times did they
1:02:51defibrillate you?
1:02:52>> I saw one time.
1:02:54>> Okay.
1:02:54>> I saw one time. Um when I and this is
1:02:58what made me say 4 minutes is because
1:03:00the protocol for defibrillation is if
1:03:02you don't respond after like a minute
1:03:04and a half they defibrillate. Uh and
1:03:06then if you don't respond after a
1:03:07certain amount of time while after
1:03:10defibrillation then they do it again. So
1:03:12I opened my eyes and the guy that hold
1:03:14was holding the defibrillator pads was
1:03:15leaning in to defibrillate again. So my
1:03:17assumption is that was the second time.
1:03:19>> Great.
1:03:20>> Yeah.
1:03:20>> And what was the first thing you said?
1:03:22>> Uh
1:03:23it's like uh these woke me up.
1:03:25That was the first thought I had was
1:03:27these woke me up. And um but I
1:03:29looked at the the woman in the corner
1:03:31that was holding her face and I blurted
1:03:32out almost instantly when I opened my
1:03:34eyes, "Are you okay?"
1:03:35>> Well, you finally had a body and a mouth
1:03:37to be able to say the things that you
1:03:38had been thinking.
1:03:39>> Exactly. And it just blurted out and
1:03:41then I looked at the guy with
1:03:42defibrillator pads and I said, "Are you
1:03:43okay?" You know, [laughter] and he cut
1:03:46me off and he said, "No, are you okay?"
1:03:48>> You just died.
1:03:50>> I didn't even
1:03:52The guy to the right said uh "You didn't
1:03:54feel that?" And I think he was talking
1:03:55about defibrillation. And I was about to
1:03:57say, "Feel what?" cuz I felt nothing. I
1:03:59felt nothing.
1:04:01Uh and I looked down and I saw this uh
1:04:03like a gel a pack on my chest that had
1:04:06indentation marks from the they looked
1:04:07the same size as the defibrillator pads
1:04:09in front of me and I looked and I said,
1:04:12"You really just died." Like it my mind
1:04:14caught up. My human mind caught up with
1:04:16it and it was like, "You really did just
1:04:17die. All of those things you saw, you
1:04:19just you did experience that." And and
1:04:22uh
1:04:22and it was amazing. Like the
1:04:25>> [laughter]
1:04:25>> to be back in the body.
1:04:27>> So, what happens next?
1:04:28>> Funny, funny, funny part of the story
1:04:30that I just started sharing cuz I didn't
1:04:32I I thought it was
1:04:34I don't like to share stuff that's
1:04:36confusing, honestly, because I feel like
1:04:37people who are who supposed to be here
1:04:40to bring clarity often are confusing,
1:04:43you know?
1:04:43>> [laughter]
1:04:44>> I just want to ground a message that
1:04:46makes sense. So, so even with all the
1:04:47mystical stuff like uh to me is treat
1:04:50each other better and this planet will
1:04:51be better. I don't care how mystical you
1:04:53are. We treated each other better, this
1:04:54planet would be better. Okay, but when I
1:04:56came back and I and I
1:04:58um
1:04:59I was uh
1:05:00you know, I said to the lady, "Are you
1:05:01okay?" I spoke to the people. I asked
1:05:03the guy if he was okay. I leaned back
1:05:05and I was exhausted.
1:05:07>> [laughter]
1:05:07>> And uh
1:05:08and it was a face. Like this guy's face
1:05:10was like literally this close to me. And
1:05:12I did like that like to kind of look at
1:05:14him.
1:05:15And he said his eyes got really big. It
1:05:17was a white guy that looked like Shaggy
1:05:18from Scooby-Doo.
1:05:20And I don't know if he was a real person
1:05:22or a spirit. Like I to this day I don't
1:05:23know. But he looked at me and his eyes
1:05:25was really big and he said, "What did
1:05:26you see?"
1:05:28And I looked at him and I made my eyes
1:05:31big cuz I didn't I couldn't explain
1:05:32everything. So I made my eyes really big
1:05:34like his and I said, "Blackness."
1:05:37>> [laughter]
1:05:39>> And that was so funny to me. Even even
1:05:42after dying
1:05:44I thought that was so funny. Like I was
1:05:46like, "I'm already being an
1:05:47again."
1:05:48>> [laughter]
1:05:49>> You know, I'm back. You know, but um
1:05:51that was funny. But I don't know if he
1:05:53was a real person or not. And after that
1:05:54I kind of I think I just fell asleep. It
1:05:56was over. And that was the end of it.
1:05:58>> there's some sort of recuperative
1:05:59process by which they have to
1:06:02repair something or like make you not
1:06:06dead anymore in terms of like was there
1:06:08any procedure they did on your heart at
1:06:10that time?
1:06:11>> Well, when I came in they thought it was
1:06:12blockages. So they put stents in two
1:06:15valves. They put two two stents in and
1:06:17they were trying to put a third stent in
1:06:18but they couldn't cuz the valve was
1:06:20ripped all to pieces.
1:06:21And
1:06:22so I have two stents and I think they
1:06:24pulled it the third one out.
1:06:27Well, even if they didn't the surgery
1:06:30replaced the valve with a pig valve.
1:06:32Yeah.
1:06:34The option was a pig valve or a
1:06:35mechanical valve. And with the
1:06:37mechanical valve you have to take a
1:06:38blood thinner for the rest of your life.
1:06:40I already had a bad experience with a
1:06:41blood thinner. I was taking a blood
1:06:43thinner for for hypertension for some
1:06:44reason. And then I poked myself with a
1:06:46glass that broke and the blood shot to
1:06:48the
1:06:49>> Oh my god.
1:06:49>> to the ceiling of my house [snorts]
1:06:51and I was like, "I'm not taking blood
1:06:53thinners anymore."
1:06:54>> Yeah.
1:06:54>> You know.
1:06:55>> So they put a pig valve in
1:06:57>> Pig valve.
1:06:58>> and put your heart back together.
1:06:59>> Yeah.
1:07:00>> And then what is the process by which
1:07:02you start trying to make sense of what
1:07:04your experience was when you died?
1:07:07>> Um I'm I'm never I had to go back to
1:07:09work. So I didn't really have time to
1:07:11integrate. Uh
1:07:12>> When did you go back to work after
1:07:14dying?
1:07:14>> Um very as soon as I could.
1:07:18I would say a few days after I was got
1:07:20home or a week after I got I was
1:07:22driving. Um
1:07:24everything still hurt. My chest hurt
1:07:26bad. No, I ain't going to say a week. It
1:07:28took a long time for me to
1:07:30to
1:07:31No, but it was very fast that I was felt
1:07:33comfortable enough to move. But the pain
1:07:36initially was so extreme.
1:07:38Um I didn't want to be alive. Like I was
1:07:40like, "Why did they even save me? Like
1:07:42why would you save somebody and they had
1:07:44just you know the the chest cracked
1:07:46open? Like what is this? Why would you
1:07:47do this to
1:07:49Like I wanted to go because I woke up
1:07:51one morning and I sneezed and it
1:07:53literally felt like my whole chest just
1:07:54opened back up. And all I could do was
1:07:57wail. Like I And I
1:07:59Every time I share this part of the
1:08:01story, I can get emotional because the
1:08:03wailing sounds
1:08:05like it didn't even come from me. It was
1:08:07like I was hearing it. Like what is this
1:08:09sound? And it was the saddest sound
1:08:12ever. Yeah, and
1:08:14um
1:08:15Yeah, it hurt.
1:08:17>> [laughter]
1:08:17>> What was it like, you know, you you had
1:08:19a son, you know, a a little boy? What
1:08:21was that like? And what was your kind of
1:08:24orientation with what you had
1:08:25experienced and what you had to come
1:08:27back to?
1:08:28>> Um I didn't think I was going to live
1:08:30after
1:08:31the experience. So I was um
1:08:33really for a long time my heart wasn't
1:08:36beating right. It felt like I had two
1:08:38hearts. It was the beat rhythm wasn't It
1:08:41just wasn't rhythm-ing.
1:08:43It So I just knew that that wasn't
1:08:45healthy and I couldn't It wasn't going
1:08:47to I wasn't going to live if it stayed
1:08:48that way. And um so I didn't expect to
1:08:51live and
1:08:52so I got a dog. I was sharing this story
1:08:54recently and uh and I It was a big It
1:08:57was a pit bull. It got big and my
1:08:59thought was I'm going to die. So maybe I
1:09:01can train this dog to be a protector of
1:09:03my son and his mother. And I was harsh,
1:09:06real harsh with the dog cuz I wanted it
1:09:08to be as mean as I was and be a
1:09:09protector. And it's a pit bull. You
1:09:11don't really have to teach a pit bull to
1:09:12protect. And I And I was going overboard
1:09:15and I felt horrible. And I was
1:09:17I sold the dog because I realized that
1:09:19it wasn't safe with me. It wasn't
1:09:21healthy for me because I was I thought I
1:09:23was dying and I wanted it to replace me.
1:09:25And that's not a healthy thing for a
1:09:27dog, you know? So, I This guy used to
1:09:29come by to cut grass of my neighbors,
1:09:31and he always loved the dog. Like, the
1:09:33dog loved him instantly. And I I I
1:09:36didn't want to let the dog go, but I
1:09:38felt like it it needed to go to that guy
1:09:40cuz I was not healthy. You know,
1:09:42mentally, spiritually, in any way I
1:09:44wasn't healthy.
1:09:45>> Your boy was still young, so how how
1:09:47long is it like this before you have
1:09:50some sort of cracking open where you're
1:09:52able to incorporate what happened when
1:09:54you died?
1:09:55>> It took me 3 and 1/2 years to talk about
1:09:57it.
1:09:57>> Wow.
1:09:58>> And
1:09:59for 3 and 1/2 years it was just I was
1:10:01probably more depressed
1:10:03after heart surgery the depression was
1:10:06so extreme. I They told me that I would
1:10:08be depressed after heart surgery, but
1:10:09I've been depressed for 34 years.
1:10:11You know, I've been in a existential
1:10:13crisis for 34 years since I drowned at
1:10:15age 6. I hated this place for 34 years,
1:10:17so there was nothing that he was saying
1:10:19that made me feel like depression was
1:10:21going to matter. But, after heart
1:10:22surgery the depression was so extreme.
1:10:25Um
1:10:26Uh
1:10:27and it took a long time for me to
1:10:29to
1:10:30even
1:10:31Like, even when I was angry, happiness,
1:10:33I didn't like happy people. I thought
1:10:34happiness was fake because I'd never
1:10:36really felt happy in a way any extended
1:10:39period of time.
1:10:40I mean, the town I'm from, Yanceyville,
1:10:42Caswell County, was the poorest county,
1:10:44so it was like I I had never been happy.
1:10:46I I had um
1:10:47But, what what I did feel was my mom's
1:10:50love was safe. She loved me. And that's
1:10:53So, from happiness I stopped even caring
1:10:55about it, but I understood what love
1:10:57was. And and I felt safe with love. And
1:11:00um
1:11:01But, I don't know. It's just um
1:11:04Just just the anger. I don't know. It it
1:11:07it blinded me. I couldn't see reality
1:11:09for what it was. All I could see was
1:11:10what how I judged it, how it made me
1:11:12feel, you know, the And and after I
1:11:15detached from all of that, like, all I
1:11:16see is reality.
1:11:18>> Yeah, so what changed? Like, what
1:11:20happened after 3 and 1/2 years?
1:11:21>> I shared it. I shared it. It was during
1:11:23COVID. It was 21 2021 during 2020 2021.
1:11:28It was during COVID. And the Clubhouse
1:11:30app had come out or had gotten popular.
1:11:33Yeah.
1:11:34>> So, you die. You have this experience.
1:11:37You have this surgery. You come back.
1:11:40You're just holding all this in your
1:11:42soul?
1:11:43>> Trying to go work.
1:11:44>> And what did you think of that
1:11:46experience? You were just like like what
1:11:48what what's the story you told?
1:11:49>> about it because I don't want people to
1:11:51think I'm crazy, you know.
1:11:53>> Yeah.
1:11:54>> Um um
1:11:56I don't understand it. So, I can't even
1:11:58talk about it in any kind of
1:12:00uh
1:12:01intelligible way.
1:12:03Um
1:12:04Uh I didn't know what happened to me.
1:12:06>> Okay.
1:12:06>> You know, so for the it took me and my
1:12:09friend Zachariah we've been we've
1:12:11talked, you know, we've we take breaks,
1:12:14but we've talked almost every day for
1:12:16like three, four for four, five years.
1:12:18And um
1:12:19that uh talking about we talked about
1:12:22everything, ancient Egyptian stuff,
1:12:24ancient Greek stuff.
1:12:25>> Did you meet him during COVID?
1:12:26>> Uh the on the Clubhouse app.
1:12:28>> Oh, wow.
1:12:29>> We both were sharing that we had these
1:12:30experiences in
1:12:32>> okay, so you found this Clubhouse app,
1:12:33which we all kind of laughed about cuz
1:12:35we're like, is this going to be a thing,
1:12:36right? But like some of us tried it out.
1:12:38>> I
1:12:39love it. I don't even use it as much now
1:12:41because the environment has changed a
1:12:42lot, but I will always speak highly of
1:12:45Clubhouse.
1:12:46>> So, that So, you started
1:12:48>> So, you started connecting and that's
1:12:50the place you started sharing.
1:12:51>> Yeah. Yeah, and people poured into me
1:12:55from all over the world. Um
1:12:58shamans,
1:13:00uh
1:13:00Indian like mystics, like these people
1:13:03were like gurus who knew these ancient
1:13:05texts inside out. So, when I said stuff,
1:13:07they would be like, "Oh, this is that.
1:13:08Oh, this is that. Oh, this is" and I'm
1:13:10like
1:13:11Uh they're blowing my mind like cuz uh
1:13:12everything that I was saying they were
1:13:14able to explain it through the text that
1:13:16they knew. And uh so, I started reading
1:13:19more Vedic texts and more
1:13:21uh Hindu texts and ancient Greek stuff,
1:13:24ancient Egyptian stuff, and everything
1:13:26that happened to me is there. Like
1:13:27everything that even Terence Howard
1:13:29started talking about Russell. Uh Walter
1:13:32Russell stuff. I had Walter Russell's
1:13:34book in college and and didn't read it
1:13:35cuz it was too dense. After my NDE, I
1:13:38looked at Secrets of Light. It's
1:13:40describing what how I the void.
1:13:43>> Oh my god.
1:13:43>> How I came It's describing it. And and
1:13:45it's weird to me now, you know, all of
1:13:47it cuz there's so much that I had in my
1:13:49possession before I had the NDE that now
1:13:52I know why I had I had that book because
1:13:55I had to have that book to help me
1:13:56understand what happened to me after I
1:13:57died. Um but I got it. I was 18 19 years
1:14:01old and didn't understand it.
1:14:02>> Well, you would also had all these
1:14:03experiences that your soul had been
1:14:06racking up in this, right? In this
1:14:08incarnation
1:14:10of almost dying, of having all these
1:14:12mystical experiences, of relying on your
1:14:14mother's love to to like get you
1:14:16through.
1:14:17>> Yeah, it's Yeah, it seemed as though
1:14:20I cuz my like I have now
1:14:22probably close to 5,000 or more books
1:14:25and
1:14:26most of them are about spirituality,
1:14:27quantum physics,
1:14:29psychology, and neuroscience.
1:14:32And it's That's the And I had these
1:14:34books before I had this experience. So
1:14:36when I had the experience, now I have a
1:14:38whole library, you know, to go dig
1:14:40through to help me explain what happened
1:14:42to me.
1:14:43>> So this is pretty recent that you're
1:14:44talking about it.
1:14:46>> To Yeah, it happened in 2017.
1:14:49>> But you But it was during COVID that you
1:14:51started
1:14:51>> Started So about 2021 is when I first
1:14:53shared it.
1:14:54>> What was that first experience like? Did
1:14:57you have that whole story formed because
1:15:00you had been suppressing it for all
1:15:01these years?
1:15:02>> It poured out the same way it pours out
1:15:04now except I have more details now
1:15:06because sometimes I remember more, you
1:15:08know? But it it's been People who've
1:15:11heard me share the first time, they say
1:15:13you say it the same way every time and
1:15:15because I remember it that way. And and
1:15:17I'm not trying to embellish. I only
1:15:19share what I saw. I don't share what I
1:15:21believe about what I saw.
1:15:23>> They're different things.
1:15:24>> They're different things, yeah.
1:15:25Um
1:15:26and I don't really have belief anymore.
1:15:28Either I understand it or I don't, you
1:15:30know?
1:15:31And then I don't understand it, I can
1:15:32try to understand it. If I If it's still
1:15:34too difficult for me to understand, I
1:15:35can move my attention somewhere else.
1:15:37Like I don't have to fixate on any idea
1:15:39on this planet anymore. Like there's an
1:15:41infinite number of ideas here, and I
1:15:43don't have to understand them all. So, I
1:15:45don't fixate on anything here. If I
1:15:47understand it, I can understand it. If I
1:15:48don't, I don't. I don't have to believe.
1:15:50I don't have to force an idea from
1:15:52misunderstanding.
1:15:53>> I love this notion, and it's something
1:15:54we've talked about with a lot of the
1:15:55materialists that we speak to. You know,
1:15:57"Oh, what do you believe?" and what have
1:15:58you. And I think that's such That's so
1:16:00beautifully said. It's not about belief
1:16:02at a certain point. It's either like a
1:16:03yes or a no.
1:16:05>> belief is the lowest form of knowing.
1:16:07You know,
1:16:08you I believe this, but you could go
1:16:10find out whether or not that belief is
1:16:12close to accurate or far from accurate
1:16:14if you had the you know, the energy or
1:16:16the wherewithal to just go do it. But I
1:16:18don't have to believe anything, and I
1:16:20don't have to question anybody else's
1:16:21beliefs, either. You know, I don't. Um
1:16:24because we all are in delusion. I mean,
1:16:26our
1:16:27perception is imperfect. It's processed
1:16:30here, not you know, and if we are
1:16:32traumatized and influenced by culture,
1:16:34our perception is being influenced by
1:16:35that. So, we're not seeing reality ever.
1:16:38We're We're living in a personal
1:16:40delusion, and our delusions should serve
1:16:42us, and so many of our delusions don't
1:16:44serve us. You know, and I think that we
1:16:46should consider that. Some of the ideas
1:16:48that we entertain they're anti-life.
1:16:50They're uh
1:16:51they're hopeless, and we don't have to
1:16:53entertain these ideas.
1:16:55Our ideas should serve us that we
1:16:56entertain. The delusions that we accept
1:16:58about this place should serve us.
1:17:00>> I know it's such a simple question that
1:17:02has such a complicated answer.
1:17:04How did you change
1:17:07after you know, after this experience?
1:17:09>> I think I wouldn't have changed where is
1:17:11it where it not for the experience. So,
1:17:12I don't take any kind of um
1:17:15credit for it. It it was graceless. I I
1:17:17I
1:17:18I um
1:17:19I died, and when I came back, I didn't
1:17:21have an attachment to the ideas, but I
1:17:24had to live I had to live for a while to
1:17:26realize that. I remember getting in an
1:17:28argument with my son's mother after I
1:17:30died, and I was talking loud, and I
1:17:32remember hearing myself talking loud,
1:17:34and it was like, "Why are you talking so
1:17:35loud?" You know,
1:17:38you're not angry at anyone.
1:17:40And I And I thought it was ridiculous.
1:17:42You know, and I saw
1:17:44but I still can get triggered. You know,
1:17:46I still can get frustrated every now and
1:17:47then and impatient. But um for the most
1:17:50part I hear my thoughts I hear my I see
1:17:52my behavior and I just can correct it
1:17:54before it goes awry. Or I can correct
1:17:57the thought before the thought becomes
1:17:58anything that I have to vocalize or act
1:18:00on.
1:18:01>> You described a little bit that your
1:18:03brain changed, right? And the one of the
1:18:05only ways to explain this and I think,
1:18:08you know, we've spoken to many
1:18:09incredible people who have had NDEs and
1:18:11Buddy's a great example of someone who
1:18:13really was you know, one specific
1:18:17chemical drug addiction, right? It was
1:18:19lifted for her kind of instantly, right?
1:18:21The rest had to still continue
1:18:22unfolding, but you know, we spoke to
1:18:25Elizabeth Krone and you know, she's a
1:18:27friend of the podcast or like she
1:18:28physiologically changed. She was struck
1:18:30by lightning, right? There's things that
1:18:31you can kind of point to.
1:18:33But what you're describing, I've never
1:18:34heard anyone describe like this that
1:18:38it's as if your brain rewired and the
1:18:40parts of you that were geared for
1:18:42hatred, right? Or for generalizing about
1:18:45a group of people or, you know, that
1:18:47amygdala response of everyone's against
1:18:50me and you and I'm going to get my
1:18:51back up no matter what, it's like that
1:18:55calmed down, right? It's
1:18:58it changed.
1:18:59>> The death, did it change something
1:19:02structural?
1:19:04Or was it that you experienced a level
1:19:07of love that allowed you on an emotional
1:19:10level to know that there was an
1:19:12alternative, right? We only see how
1:19:14wound up we are once we're able to fully
1:19:17relax and we're never able to fully
1:19:18relax because we're so wound up.
1:19:21>> Yeah.
1:19:21>> You got taken to this alternative state,
1:19:24this
1:19:25version of an afterlife and you
1:19:27experienced the ultimate love.
1:19:29>> Yeah.
1:19:30>> That may have been the only way for you
1:19:32to see just what you were carrying.
1:19:35>> Yeah.
1:19:36>> Now, did that change your brain?
1:19:39Probably, but was it the brain that
1:19:41changed first or the love that we
1:19:43experienced?
1:19:44>> your brain?
1:19:45>> The way I see even what a human being is
1:19:48is is probably like eight at least eight
1:19:50pieces, you know, and the body is just
1:19:52one of them, you know? But my body
1:19:54changed,
1:19:56my spirit changed,
1:19:58and that's not easy to talk about, but
1:19:59if you speak about it in terms of the
1:20:01brain, it is.
1:20:04The limbic brain if it's extremely
1:20:07active, you're going to have a lot of
1:20:09fight or flight and anxiety and you
1:20:10know, bad storytelling, making up stuff
1:20:12about reality, lying on reality.
1:20:15That's going to be normal.
1:20:16So, I know that
1:20:18that's where those things reside in the
1:20:20body. And uh
1:20:23analogically, that's your spirit.
1:20:27And there is no separating the body from
1:20:29from these other concepts. It's just a
1:20:33It's analogical. Everything is
1:20:34analogical in ancient thinking.
1:20:36And if it doesn't make sense from the
1:20:37nano to the cosmic, it's a human
1:20:40thought. It's a human idea that's made
1:20:41up. And there's nothing wrong with that,
1:20:43but our delusions should
1:20:45still
1:20:47be aligned with reality.
1:20:49And a lot of our delusions aren't
1:20:50aligned with reality, and that's when it
1:20:51creates problems in reality.
1:20:53>> You just defined God as everything or
1:20:55God as nothing, which you hear a lot in
1:20:5712-step meetings, right?
1:20:59>> Yeah, I speak about that program so
1:21:00highly because I tell people that I've
1:21:02met who've gone through it, they speak
1:21:03my language.
1:21:04>> Mhm.
1:21:05>> But that notion [clears throat] of like
1:21:06from the nano to the right? Like Like if
1:21:08it doesn't make sense everywhere, it
1:21:10actually doesn't make sense.
1:21:12>> Yeah. I never heard that from that, but
1:21:15I I do have a deep amount of respect for
1:21:17that AA and NA. That whole orientation
1:21:21it gives the person going through it
1:21:24spiritual autonomy, agency back. And
1:21:27that's that's what's necessary.
1:21:28>> It was like dying taught you
1:21:32how to stop hating everyone.
1:21:34>> Yeah.
1:21:35Yeah.
1:21:35>> Right? It like
1:21:37And And I think Jonathan asked such a
1:21:39you know, a
1:21:40a nuanced question, right? Like was it
1:21:43the experience or was it what you
1:21:45experienced? Because, you know, we're
1:21:47all told love is the answer, love can
1:21:49cure everything. Like you I'm just going
1:21:52to go out on a limb here.
1:21:54You know, whatever you want to call God,
1:21:56like you experienced God's love. You
1:21:58experienced a love that is outside of
1:22:01the the physical being. It's outside of
1:22:04our understanding and comprehension. And
1:22:06once you experience it, you're actually
1:22:08not supposed to necessarily come back
1:22:10cuz it means you died. Right? Like that
1:22:14changed your brain, right? That infused
1:22:17your body with something that it took
1:22:20time to percolate, but you know,
1:22:22>> I think when I came out of the void, I
1:22:24didn't have much memory of David. And I
1:22:26think that's the void felt like an
1:22:28intense love. Like
1:22:30the closest thing to it is your first
1:22:32love or the person you love the most in
1:22:34a full body orgasm multiplied times
1:22:3610,000. That's what it felt like. And um
1:22:40I felt like I was fixed when I came out
1:22:42of the void. I didn't have personal
1:22:44references to my experience like that.
1:22:47It was like I understood everything, but
1:22:49it wasn't because I learned it as a as
1:22:51David.
1:22:52>> Well, you stopped taking everything so
1:22:54damn personally.
1:22:55>> Yeah.
1:22:55>> Right? Like literally, you were you were
1:22:58given the experience of you're going to
1:23:00go through your life taking everything
1:23:01personally or, you know, feeling that
1:23:04you know, the the the entire fight is
1:23:06yours to win, right? Or that you
1:23:08>> I'm going to save the world. The whole
1:23:10black world especially in that time.
1:23:13>> [laughter]
1:23:13>> Right. And so the experience the
1:23:15experience is like well, what if we
1:23:16remove you from everything that you know
1:23:18about yourself? And then what's left
1:23:20over?
1:23:21>> Attention.
1:23:22That was what I was in my opinion. And
1:23:25and I know now that even here my
1:23:27attention
1:23:28creates my experience.
1:23:30If I put my attention on hopeless
1:23:33ideas,
1:23:34I'm going to experience hopelessness.
1:23:36If I put my attention on hopeful ideas
1:23:38and and responsible things, accountable
1:23:40idea, then and going to experience that.
1:23:43And if I see problems and I'm in
1:23:45[clears throat] a hopeful state, uh I
1:23:47want to solve them, not talk bad about,
1:23:50you know, the issues, you know? Um
1:23:53that's what my experience
1:23:56The biggest change is that the things
1:23:57that made me angry now,
1:23:59I can think about them,
1:24:00maybe think about solutions to them, but
1:24:03in my anger I never I never had a
1:24:04solution to anything. I just had anger.
1:24:07>> What is your relationship with your
1:24:08intuition now or that voice that had
1:24:11guided you through childhood?
1:24:13>> It's constant now. It's
1:24:15I I I felt like torture for a while
1:24:17because I was all It felt like I was
1:24:19judging myself, but it's really just
1:24:21guiding myself, you know? But it But it
1:24:23for a while before I was
1:24:26I was still very graceless. I was always
1:24:28having to
1:24:29uh
1:24:30course correct, always. So the voice was
1:24:32always saying, "No,
1:24:34no." It was It felt like judgment, like
1:24:35it was nitpicking over behavior.
1:24:38But um what I'm learning is that uh what
1:24:41I learned in even from my NDE is that
1:24:43the thoughts are the problem, too, you
1:24:45know? So
1:24:46if you can't check your thoughts, then
1:24:48it really doesn't matter what behavior
1:24:49you engage in because it's an act. Your
1:24:52thoughts are your energy. The behavior
1:24:54is an act. So if you If like I used to
1:24:57go to job interviews and I would go into
1:24:59the job interview and as a white guy
1:25:01interviewing me and I And soon as I
1:25:03came, "Oh, this white guy, he I hate
1:25:04him. He hates me. I'm not going to get
1:25:06the job." Um
1:25:07and I not get the job and then I would
1:25:09leave and say, "He was racist. That's
1:25:11why didn't get the job." None of my
1:25:13thoughts influenced that. None of my
1:25:15prediction influenced that. None of my
1:25:17attention, you know? So now I blame
1:25:19myself for those types of encounters
1:25:21because I came in already predicting
1:25:23that it wasn't going to work. I came in
1:25:25not even having the capacity to love
1:25:26this person in front of me, but I
1:25:28expected this person to somehow get some
1:25:30advice to say, "Yeah, he's the one."
1:25:32That's That doesn't work that way.
1:25:34There's nothing in his being that would
1:25:35have said that it was safe to have me
1:25:36working with him the way that I behaved,
1:25:39you know, and the way that I thought.
1:25:41>> It's such a humbling experience and I
1:25:43think that's something we see in a lot
1:25:45of NDEs. It's like everything you
1:25:47thought, everything you thought was
1:25:49important or valuable, you know, it's
1:25:51just like it's such a humbling
1:25:52experience, right?
1:25:54>> I was a know-it-all, you know.
1:25:56>> [laughter]
1:25:57>> So, now I'm I have no solid conclusions,
1:26:00and I don't speak with extreme certainty
1:26:02about most things. I'm open to learning
1:26:04and refining my perspective always.
1:26:07>> What you describe is something that you
1:26:10know, most people will never experience.
1:26:13And I'm actually very curious, and this
1:26:15is just me being a nerd. Like, I'm very
1:26:17curious, you know, when your death
1:26:19happened, because about 30% of people
1:26:23with cardiac, you know, events like
1:26:26this, right? When they are resuscitated,
1:26:28will report a near-death experience. So,
1:26:30many people, you know, in cardiac units,
1:26:33unfortunately, you know, they they die,
1:26:35they do not come back. When people do
1:26:37come back, when they're brought back,
1:26:38the way you were brought back, about 30%
1:26:41remember something. And I'd like to
1:26:43believe that everyone's having these
1:26:44experiences, but only some people are
1:26:46given this gift to kind of bring it
1:26:47back, right?
1:26:48>> Kind of like dreams. Everybody don't
1:26:49remember their dreams.
1:26:50>> Yes, exactly. But,
1:26:53the things that you experienced, many
1:26:55people try and touch with transcendental
1:26:57meditation, other forms of meditation.
1:27:00And And there's been a lot of
1:27:02conversation, and indigenous communities
1:27:04for thousands of years have used plant
1:27:06medicine to kind of get at these things.
1:27:07And there are both plant medicines and
1:27:09also synthetic medications that, you
1:27:13know, kind of pull that veil of
1:27:15consciousness up and allow you to have
1:27:18experiences, I don't want to say that
1:27:20are similar, because there's nothing
1:27:21Okay, great. Well, you're the one who
1:27:23gets to say it, cuz
1:27:23>> [laughter]
1:27:24>> you're the one who died.
1:27:24>> And I've had psychedelics.
1:27:26>> Is this something you're comfortable
1:27:27talking about, because I'm curious,
1:27:30where's the overlap, right? Like, what's
1:27:32actually happening, because we can't
1:27:34just dismiss these drugs as like a good
1:27:36time, and it's just a party drug.
1:27:38Something's going on.
1:27:40>> I'm one of those people who if you fall,
1:27:42bump your head, and and have an
1:27:44experience, it's no different than what
1:27:46I experienced if you have the same
1:27:48orientation afterwards. To me, it's not
1:27:50about the experience, it's about the
1:27:51orientation the pivot afterwards. If you
1:27:54are the same idiot before your NDE that
1:27:56you were after NDE, who cares about the
1:27:58experience? And there's a lot of people
1:28:00who take uh psychedelics regularly that
1:28:01are idiots still.
1:28:03>> [laughter]
1:28:03>> You know, and uh and you every single
1:28:05time you speak to them, "I'm oh I'm
1:28:07tripping on this." And And you're still
1:28:09an idiot. Like, so what's the point of
1:28:10this? You know? So, for me it it's not
1:28:12about the experience, it's about
1:28:14integrating and grounding it. And and
1:28:16because so many people have these
1:28:17experiences and they try to tell you
1:28:19about uh the uh
1:28:22the purple elephant that was flying. And
1:28:25And it's like, "Well, what does it
1:28:26mean?" If I don't care to hear about a
1:28:29purple elephant flying, it doesn't mean
1:28:31anything to me. But if you could sit
1:28:33with your experience before you feel the
1:28:34need to always yell it from the rooftop
1:28:36because it's novel, and just ground it
1:28:38first, then you will you will see that
1:28:41the response the receptor the reception
1:28:42to it will be different. The 3 and 1/2
1:28:44years that I took to to not share it
1:28:46just ruminating over it. And then 4
1:28:49years or so of talking it out with
1:28:50another person even as I was sharing it
1:28:53has allowed me to not view any of the
1:28:55experience itself as
1:28:58the experiences are important, but it's
1:29:02you how you integrate it and ground it
1:29:04on the other side.
1:29:04>> So, in that sense, what do you see in
1:29:07terms of psychedelics? Is that a tool?
1:29:09Like is it a
1:29:10>> an an adjunct. But you get to a place
1:29:13where you don't need the adjuncts, you
1:29:15know? Like once you awaken to that way
1:29:17of seeing reality, the adjuncts aren't
1:29:19necessary. I still would like to use
1:29:21some of these adjuncts cuz I've never
1:29:23have before and I would like to be able
1:29:24to compare them to the NDE. So, I'm
1:29:27still going to try some more.
1:29:29>> [laughter]
1:29:29>> Right.
1:29:30>> Just to even be able to speak about it,
1:29:31you know, and compare it because there's
1:29:33a that's a that is a big question.
1:29:35>> We recently were talking about you know,
1:29:36some of the incredible research you
1:29:38know, with DMT which is a very serious
1:29:41very strong medication. Well, right cuz
1:29:43what people report and you know, there's
1:29:45there's some very interesting studies
1:29:47you know, trying to get people who know
1:29:49nothing about the expectation of the
1:29:51study to to describe what they're seeing
1:29:54and you know, you have all these
1:29:55independent reports of very specific
1:29:58images and imagery which you know, is it
1:30:01the brain producing it or is it really
1:30:03reality that we're peeking into?
1:30:05>> To me, like the biggest difference
1:30:06between uh
1:30:08psychedelics and the NDE is um
1:30:11every single time I've had psychedelics,
1:30:13mainly mushrooms, I've done LSD and I
1:30:16have a whole movie idea.
1:30:18>> [laughter]
1:30:20>> That came down, it downloaded after
1:30:22that. It was weird. But uh
1:30:25I call it the curators.
1:30:26>> Huh.
1:30:26>> Yeah, but uh mushrooms uh
1:30:31the visuals
1:30:33I could see somebody I could see
1:30:36I've seen when I had my NDE there was
1:30:39moments of just really strange visuals,
1:30:40especially as I was dying.
1:30:42>> Like what?
1:30:43>> Just stuff not looking the way it looked
1:30:46when you were alive, like the it just
1:30:47kind of uh
1:30:49I call it. I got I I
1:30:51I just had to make myself remember
1:30:52stuff. Like I always like I called it
1:30:55whatever you're caught with. See, I said
1:30:56c o t w f.
1:30:59Whatever you're caught with when you die
1:31:01is uh
1:31:03is what you're going to experience in
1:31:04the transition. And caught with to me is
1:31:07uh the collapse of the wave function.
1:31:10So, what wherever you it collapses and
1:31:12whatever your awareness is in that
1:31:14moment, you're going to experience
1:31:16things in from that angle, you know. And
1:31:20uh so, if you're angry, upset and your
1:31:22wave function collapses, you're going to
1:31:24experience things as that energy in my
1:31:25opinion.
1:31:27Uh
1:31:27same with NDEs, but what it what uh
1:31:30with uh
1:31:32psychedelics
1:31:34whatever you're caught with is stronger
1:31:37because you're still still flowing
1:31:38through your body
1:31:40and it's still real, you know. When you
1:31:42leave the body, there's no anchor to the
1:31:43body. So, you can leave those things and
1:31:46you have the uh the uh the life review.
1:31:49And that looks different I've seen
1:31:50people describe TV screens and them
1:31:53their whole story. For me, it was a I
1:31:56saw brief flashes of images, but it was
1:31:58mostly like a maybe 10 second, 5 7
1:32:00second
1:32:02dump of energy to where I understood how
1:32:04I made people feel.
1:32:06One of the biggest things that I
1:32:09um
1:32:11The simplest way to describe it would
1:32:12just be lying, but uh telling people
1:32:14that you're going to do something and
1:32:15not doing it. I
1:32:17I felt that I'd done that a lot.
1:32:20You know, agreed to do something and I
1:32:22didn't follow through, and I could feel
1:32:24the disappointment from people who I had
1:32:26agreed to do it with.
1:32:27>> You could feel other people's feelings.
1:32:30>> And um debts, and they're not always
1:32:33money debts, but it is money debts. If
1:32:35you if I thought about those people that
1:32:37I owed money to as I was leaving here,
1:32:39but it was also not just the money, it
1:32:41was the grace that they extended to me.
1:32:42I don't think I extended it back, you
1:32:44know. So, the feeling of reciprocity
1:32:47wasn't there, and that person probably
1:32:49felt that, and I felt it in that moment.
1:32:51>> Yeah, I mean, it's definitely different
1:32:53than the other life reviews that we've
1:32:55heard about, but I'm thinking of even
1:32:56Betty. Betty was able to sort of
1:32:58actively experience
1:33:00the the pain of the people she had hurt.
1:33:03She experienced her father's pain at
1:33:06leaving her right like all these things.
1:33:09And um you know, it's almost like an
1:33:11emotional um you know, reconciliation.
1:33:14>> And that's what I view it as. I I don't
1:33:16view the life review as something that
1:33:19uh
1:33:21that you should take and be like, "Oh,
1:33:23man, my life review showed me this." Oh,
1:33:24man, no, it's this is the final time for
1:33:27you to detach from the things that you
1:33:29held your attention on so so deeply in
1:33:31this experience. The life review is
1:33:33always going to be the things that
1:33:35your attention that stuck in your
1:33:36attention. Always. If it if cuz if you
1:33:39did if you were Christian and you and
1:33:41you didn't worship Jesus, you wouldn't
1:33:43see Jesus all the time.
1:33:44>> There's a lot of people who also feel
1:33:46like
1:33:47if you if people see Jesus during NDEs,
1:33:50it's proof that Jesus is the true god,
1:33:52which like I don't have much attachment
1:33:55to truth in in sense just because it's
1:33:57all one anyway, but
1:33:59>> have an extreme amount of respect for
1:34:01the idea of Jesus and Christianity like
1:34:04deeply, you know,
1:34:05even from the from the point of
1:34:08seeing that energy in different forms in
1:34:11in the past and and loving them then,
1:34:13you know, so it's not a thing of me
1:34:14trying to question people's religion.
1:34:16It's just the way that we approach
1:34:17religion often times is divisive and
1:34:20violent and we've been killing ourselves
1:34:22each other
1:34:24over bad storytelling for far too long,
1:34:26you know.
1:34:27>> Yeah.
1:34:28>> And these stories have origins and it's
1:34:29not where we where we are with these
1:34:31stories is not where these stories began
1:34:33and the killing each other over it
1:34:34doesn't make sense to me.
1:34:35>> You mentioned past lives. What's your
1:34:37current understanding of not just your
1:34:41past lives, but how the system is set
1:34:44up?
1:34:44>> Yeah, um
1:34:46I think that there were coaches who who
1:34:50um
1:34:53they created reincarnation. They
1:34:55practiced the practices that brought
1:34:57back certain types to keep society
1:34:59stable. You know, if a person performed
1:35:02well in this role, then let's bring them
1:35:03back and perform well in this role
1:35:05again.
1:35:06And I think that's what happened in
1:35:07ancient times, but there's no practice
1:35:09of reincarnate there's no people calling
1:35:12certain spirits back anymore and so it's
1:35:14willy-nilly now. So a pharaoh can be
1:35:15born in Norway.
1:35:17>> Mhm.
1:35:18>> [laughter]
1:35:18>> You know.
1:35:18>> Right.
1:35:19>> And
1:35:20but I do think that we come and we go.
1:35:22And most of the traditions the ancient
1:35:24mystical parts of it spoke about
1:35:27that's what they're speaking about.
1:35:28Becoming aware in this life that you're
1:35:29not a body, that you have the
1:35:32agency to come and go. Almost all of the
1:35:34mystical teachings are trying to ground
1:35:37people in that knowing that you're not a
1:35:39body, you are a soul or whatever you
1:35:41want to call it and it's not really
1:35:43destructible and you're and when you
1:35:45leave the body, you realize that you are
1:35:47actually experiencing reality from that
1:35:49thing and it's not physical. And and
1:35:52it's strange. It's but it's that's what
1:35:54you are.
1:35:56And
1:35:59nothing happens to it.
1:36:00>> And I think one of the things that's so
1:36:01interesting to me about even the
1:36:02conversation about past lives, like you
1:36:04before you died, you weren't the dude
1:36:07who was like, "Let's talk about past
1:36:09lives."
1:36:10>> I even NDEs, I was cynical about NDEs
1:36:13because of what you said. Everybody was
1:36:15seeing Jesus and saying and now you have
1:36:18to believe in Jesus now cuz I saw Jesus
1:36:19when I and it's like that doesn't mean I
1:36:21have to believe.
1:36:22>> This is common in other others that
1:36:24we've spoken It's like you've been given
1:36:25a new identity, right? As someone who
1:36:29can speak to this stuff and had
1:36:30experiences first hand, which Jeffrey
1:36:33Kripal, who worked with Elizabeth Crown,
1:36:35who is a professor of religious studies
1:36:37at Rice, you know,
1:36:38he said there is a context for all of
1:36:40these experiences that goes back
1:36:42thousands of years. We're just dropping
1:36:44into them.
1:36:44>> Yeah. Yeah. E- I even I've read like
1:36:48strange things that just make strange
1:36:50suggestions about even what baptism was.
1:36:53It's like a archaeology of baptism, I
1:36:55think is a book about it. And they
1:36:57talked about how they literally were
1:36:58drowning people so that they could have
1:37:00experiences.
1:37:00>> Yeah. Well, well, well, and also, I
1:37:02mean,
1:37:03I can speak to that just as a Jewish
1:37:05person because baptism comes from a
1:37:07ritual purification, which is called the
1:37:09mikvah. And the mikvah was supposed to
1:37:11be it's a rebirth. You have an
1:37:14opportunity
1:37:15to essentially spiritually like die and
1:37:19be reborn. And for women, you know, when
1:37:21I was married, I went every month. It's
1:37:23a practice that we still do in
1:37:25traditional communities. And that is the
1:37:27notion is that when you emerge, you have
1:37:30the opportunity to be born again. Every
1:37:32part of you. The water has to touch
1:37:34every part of you as if you're coming
1:37:36out of amniotic fluid. So, when you put
1:37:38these things together historically, it's
1:37:39like, yeah, we're all just kind of like
1:37:42trying to get at this same sort of
1:37:44concept, right?
1:37:45>> so. I always I've now everything is one
1:37:48to me.
1:37:49I I can hear somebody speaking about
1:37:51something that they think should
1:37:52contradict how I think. I'm like, "No, I
1:37:55believe that, too. I accept that as a as
1:37:57a possibility, too." Like I don't All of
1:37:59it is possible because when I was out of
1:38:00my body, here's another thing I saw that
1:38:02I don't talk about much is that
1:38:05uh
1:38:06at the back of space
1:38:08>> [laughter]
1:38:08>> Which already is an amazing phrase.
1:38:11>> At the as far as I could see it it was
1:38:14like behind space was a grid.
1:38:17It was a grid and I've I've mentioned it
1:38:19in in uh
1:38:21to to um
1:38:23an Indian uh
1:38:25uh I call him a guru cuz he knows
1:38:27everything.
1:38:28>> Well, what kind of grid? I mean I have
1:38:30an idea.
1:38:31>> He called it the
1:38:32the web of Indra.
1:38:34Uh
1:38:34but it just looked like uh
1:38:38a web um a grid. It looked like the
1:38:40framework upon which all of this was
1:38:42placed.
1:38:44So before my NDE when people said matrix
1:38:46this is a this is this is a matrix I'd
1:38:48be like yeah you can't explain that
1:38:49though.
1:38:50So I don't really care of what you say
1:38:52about it. It's just a bunch of you
1:38:53watched the movie Matrix.
1:38:55Now the word is stuck in your head.
1:38:57>> Was like a uniform grid?
1:38:58>> Because it was enveloping everything. It
1:39:03It didn't look like perfectly
1:39:05>> Yeah, yeah.
1:39:06>> shaped. It was like may have been some
1:39:07angle to it. Yeah.
1:39:09>> It's going to bend.
1:39:10>> Yes, it was bend it was bending but it
1:39:12was a grid.
1:39:13>> I mean you're just you know enough about
1:39:15physics. You're also describing sort of
1:39:18the way people you know have
1:39:21we can lay out time and matter and it's
1:39:24like you know there's universal things
1:39:26that our brains can understand.
1:39:29>> I have someone who thinks about tech
1:39:32if this world was created
1:39:35and placed somehow it needs to be placed
1:39:38somewhere. That grid is the thing that
1:39:40just keeps
1:39:41>> Like the Truman Show.
1:39:42>> Yeah, it's like the boundary of our
1:39:44existence whereby the Earth prevents the
1:39:47Earth from drifting out slowly.
1:39:50>> It's the boundary of our consciousness
1:39:52because there's something beyond us. I
1:39:55think you may have gone there. But
1:39:56meaning the grid is as much as we can
1:39:58understand,
1:40:00right?
1:40:01>> where I went I feel like it's a part of
1:40:02the system.
1:40:03>> Yeah, exactly. That grid is is past
1:40:06where you went. Yeah.
1:40:08>> The back of space. [clears throat]
1:40:09>> Yeah, it was like the it was like it
1:40:11seemed like the end of it and there was
1:40:12this grid.
1:40:13>> Just cords and cables beyond that.
1:40:16>> [laughter]
1:40:16>> It's probably a Yeah.
1:40:17>> like if it's a simulation, that's what
1:40:18it's going to look like. It's The Truman
1:40:19Show.
1:40:20>> It's just Elon's servers past that.
1:40:22>> stop it. [laughter]
1:40:24Stop it.
1:40:26>> feel like, you know, what's past there
1:40:28is
1:40:29if it is if there is a god that isn't as
1:40:32a thing, a personality, or if it's an
1:40:35alien that has the intelligence to
1:40:37create this type of
1:40:39reality, that's who's back there. It's
1:40:41that that's the realm where they exist.
1:40:43>> It's just a gray office filled
1:40:45[laughter] with people typing to make
1:40:47sure that this doesn't fall apart.
1:40:49>> know how to explain that part of it at
1:40:51all.
1:40:52That's when to me the imagination
1:40:54becomes necessary, you know, because
1:40:56it's beyond
1:40:58uh
1:40:59it's beyond what's normal. It's beyond
1:41:00like
1:41:01I can think about it, you know, but I I
1:41:04would be using tips from my ancestors.
1:41:06Ancient texts Ancient texts tell us some
1:41:08of this stuff.
1:41:10We we think every god that has the
1:41:13capacity to create something is worth
1:41:14worshipping.
1:41:17>> [laughter]
1:41:17>> That's not the case. There's there's
1:41:19>> I think social media has taught us that.
1:41:21You can worship that, too.
1:41:22>> Yeah, like even Sophia, after she
1:41:24created Demiurge, said she went to God,
1:41:28the ineffable God, and said, "This is
1:41:30the worst thing I've ever done was
1:41:32create Jehovah because him and his
1:41:34humans are up to so much mischief and
1:41:36there's no limit to what they can
1:41:37[laughter] do."
1:41:38Now, I know that that could be That's
1:41:40not me making this up. That's in the
1:41:43Gnostic text. That's in the Nag Hammadi
1:41:44library.
1:41:46Uh
1:41:47Sophia created
1:41:48Yaldabaoth, who is who is considered
1:41:52is a Yahweh. I think Yahweh. And
1:41:55that's who we worship. And and some
1:41:57people say that that is just a creator.
1:42:00But he was created and she tricked him
1:42:03into breathing the breath of God into
1:42:05humans and make them walk upright cuz
1:42:08she went to God to ask for advice as to
1:42:09what she could do cuz she created
1:42:11Jehovah and he was a problem and she was
1:42:13like I made this mistake. I always make
1:42:15it and put it in my language and
1:42:17>> [laughter]
1:42:17>> I don't know what to do with this badass
1:42:19God over here. He's just acting up and
1:42:21made these stupid little humans and they
1:42:22don't know what to do and he's telling
1:42:23them to do all this and
1:42:25and he's God told her
1:42:27I I breathe my breath into you. You
1:42:29breathe your breath into him. Get him to
1:42:31breathe his breath into them and now
1:42:33we're all one pretty much.
1:42:35>> Are there angels?
1:42:36>> I don't
1:42:38the
1:42:39that word probably because I have a
1:42:42history of always trying to be ornery
1:42:45and
1:42:47and contrarian to religion. I don't like
1:42:49a lot of religious words but yes.
1:42:52>> If you were to put into your own words
1:42:54what other people would call angel like
1:42:56do people have guides?
1:42:57>> When I was traveling through space, I
1:43:00felt like if I traveled long enough I
1:43:01probably could have found this place
1:43:03while disembodied and I would have had
1:43:06an agenda here.
1:43:08And if I learned how to communicate with
1:43:09people, I would have been considered an
1:43:11angel
1:43:12but it was because I have responsibility
1:43:14to this place whether I'm embodied or
1:43:16disembodied and I will come back here to
1:43:18try to serve. So I think angels in my
1:43:21opinion just serve. They serve humanity.
1:43:23They might have an affinity to
1:43:24particular people because of anything.
1:43:26It could be literally that they
1:43:27inhabited a body that was related to
1:43:29this person at a different time and I'm
1:43:31going to come serve you.
1:43:33There's an affinity there.
1:43:34It could just be an energetic affinity
1:43:36or it could be a an experienced
1:43:38affinity, you know, and
1:43:40but I think people have and even in Ifa
1:43:42as a a West African tradition that you
1:43:45have a concept called eggbeater and this
1:43:47is like a spiritual family and they care
1:43:49about you. They're not embodied, you
1:43:51know, but they care about you.
1:43:53>> Vinny Holman
1:43:54>> Yeah.
1:43:55>> Do you know Vinny?
1:43:55>> Yeah, I met him a couple times at
1:43:57conferences.
1:43:58>> Vinny's guide when he died turned out he
1:44:01found out later was actually someone who
1:44:04was related to him, right? So just even
1:44:06this notion that we have guides like
1:44:07that.
1:44:08>> I think sometimes do use too much
1:44:11imaginative language to describe this
1:44:13and too much
1:44:14um
1:44:15religious language to describe it, but I
1:44:17think it's it's no less real. It's real.
1:44:20I think it's
1:44:21that's honestly
1:44:23the voice that speaks to me constantly.
1:44:25I could say that that's an angel. I
1:44:27could say that it's Egba. I could say
1:44:29that it's it's a spirit that loves me. I
1:44:31could say that it's me. You know,
1:44:32whatever, but I do as long as the the
1:44:35messages are
1:44:37hopeful and responsible and and and um
1:44:40and not pointing fingers or judging
1:44:41others, I know that that's a voice worth
1:44:43listening to, but as soon as that voice
1:44:45is critiquing reality and telling you
1:44:47that something's wrong with someone
1:44:49or calling people evil, that's not a
1:44:52voice worth listening to.
1:44:53>> Final question. What is it like to be a
1:44:57dad, to raise a kid with the information
1:45:01and the experiences that you've had?
1:45:02What does he think?
1:45:04>> He [clears throat] um
1:45:05I talked to him
1:45:07and I said, um "Do you remember how I
1:45:09was before before?" And he's and he just
1:45:13says,
1:45:14uh
1:45:15He said, "You used to be and I let my
1:45:17son speak his mind. I let him cuss. I
1:45:19don't I try to tell him don't cuss out,
1:45:21but I'm sure he's cussing out. You know,
1:45:23but he I said, um He said, "You used to
1:45:25be an asshole."
1:45:26And he was like nine or 10 when he said
1:45:29this. He said, "You used to be a real
1:45:30You said you were mean." And he
1:45:32said he said, "You don't fuss that much
1:45:34anymore. You're
1:45:35um
1:45:36He said, "You just calmer."
1:45:38And from him, that means the world to
1:45:41me. Now, what I want to do um when I
1:45:44think he's um and I inject little things
1:45:46here and there. I try to teach him
1:45:48without it being obvious that I'm trying
1:45:50to teach him. So, I'm I'm trying to help
1:45:52him see reality in a way that's that's
1:45:54healthy
1:45:55without it being
1:45:57a philosophy.
1:45:58>> Is he dreamy like you were?
1:46:00>> Um
1:46:01I think he's more grounded than I am. I
1:46:04was in the clouds always. Uh he's
1:46:07grounded. He's happy. And I love that
1:46:10because I was miserable. I was I was a
1:46:12depressed kid and having an existential
1:46:14crisis.
1:46:15uh Asking about death, like scared of
1:46:16death at age seven, you know. And um
1:46:20and he's just happy. And to see him
1:46:23happy is uh
1:46:25is like um
1:46:27he's not like me. You know what I'm
1:46:28saying? And that that's
1:46:31that is
1:46:33I don't want him to grow up with uh the
1:46:35anger that I did uh
1:46:37with very useless philosophies, you
1:46:40know, that I that's that single out uh
1:46:43one thing and act as though there's
1:46:45nothing else in existence, you know,
1:46:47like that's not healthy. And so he to me
1:46:50is uh has a he's well-rounded, he's
1:46:52intelligent, he's he's just turned 12 in
1:46:55March, right? But he's 5'8", like 180
1:46:57lb. He's a giant. And he's but he's
1:47:01he says some people call him a gentle
1:47:02giant because he's not mean at all like
1:47:05I was. He's uh competitive but he's
1:47:08happy, you know, and I that for me to be
1:47:13to to come from where I came from and
1:47:15have the the disposition that I did to
1:47:16have a child that is just happy
1:47:19it means a lot to me. Like that means a
1:47:21lot to me.
1:47:22>> It's a great gift. David Williamson,
1:47:24this was absolutely unreal. You're
1:47:26absolutely unreal.
1:47:28Um thank you so much [clears throat] for
1:47:29sharing with us.
1:47:30>> Thank you. Thank you all for having me.
1:47:31>> Of course.
1:47:34>> [music]
1:47:36>> He said something
1:47:38about how when he hears people talking
1:47:41that he that they think it's about
1:47:43different things, but it's really about
1:47:44the same thing. And we had a similar
1:47:47experience. It wasn't really
1:47:49philosophical per se, but I was talking
1:47:52about a deck, you were talking about a
1:47:54platform.
1:47:57We fought for weeks about this. And it
1:48:00was when we actually started to unpack
1:48:02it, we both were talking about a version
1:48:05of the same thing. Maybe there was a 15%
1:48:08difference, but it divided us and I just
1:48:10thought we can continue to come together
1:48:12realizing
1:48:14that it's all the same.
1:48:15>> I think that sometimes you call rugs
1:48:17carpets and it confuses everyone.
1:48:20>> It's my Canadian upbringing.
1:48:21>> I don't know what happens in Canada, but
1:48:23sometimes words We were actually, you
1:48:25know what? This is a good time to bring
1:48:27this up. We were watching something and
1:48:29you're like, "It's a set."
1:48:30>> Okay, I'm showing her
1:48:33the future of filmmaking. There's like
1:48:35these videos I got sent to by a producer
1:48:37friend of mine and it's an immersive
1:48:40sound stage where it's like it's not
1:48:42even a green screen. It's like this
1:48:44amazing new technology.
1:48:46>> It looked like the Universal Studios
1:48:48tram ride with King Kong around you.
1:48:50>> Yeah, so so you're in this like massive
1:48:52warehouse and the guy's walking in the
1:48:54warehouse and then it's an immersive
1:48:56environment so the entire the floor is a
1:48:58screen, the the background is a screen
1:49:02and and you can create anything. So all
1:49:04of a sudden he's walking and now he's in
1:49:05a desert and it looks like a 3D
1:49:07environment and then like a dinosaur
1:49:09comes in and like looks like it just
1:49:11goes right past his head.
1:49:12>> I don't spend any time in AI world. I
1:49:15don't barely spend any time on the
1:49:17internet looking at anything like
1:49:19visually interesting, innovative. Like I
1:49:21watch my documentaries and I type things
1:49:24and I interact with you guys. I don't
1:49:26know what things look like these days.
1:49:29So Jonathan says to me "It's a screen."
1:49:32>> No, I say I say it's an immersive
1:49:34studio.
1:49:35>> it's an immersive No, you didn't use the
1:49:37word immersive. You were just like It's
1:49:39a I I said a digital studio. He said
1:49:41it's a digital studio and I don't
1:49:43understand. I'm like, "Well, what do you
1:49:44mean? Where are we?" And you're like,
1:49:46"What What don't you understand about
1:49:48[laughter] digital studio?" "How could
1:49:50you not understand what I mean?" And I'm
1:49:52like, "I don't know what I'm looking
1:49:53at."
1:49:54>> So sometimes you ask me questions and
1:49:57they are I don't know what it is that
1:49:59you want me to explain. So it was very
1:50:02playful. You were like, "What is What is
1:50:04that?" I said, "It's a digital studio."
1:50:07>> [laughter]
1:50:07>> And you said, "What?" And so I wanted to
1:50:10see what part of that you were going to
1:50:12pick apart or if you were going to ask
1:50:14me another question.
1:50:15>> I'm going to relate this to the episode
1:50:17in a second.
1:50:18>> What I'm looking for is you to say like
1:50:21that guy like how are they making those
1:50:23images appear on the on the wall? Like
1:50:26where did the dinosaur come from? So I
1:50:28will answer that. I'll be like, oh, they
1:50:30create that in AI and that's how and
1:50:32everything's a screen. But what you say
1:50:34is
1:50:35what is that again? And I say digital
1:50:38studio.
1:50:39And then you say, what? And I say,
1:50:41digital
1:50:42>> So this
1:50:43>> studio.
1:50:44>> So [laughter]
1:50:45this is just like communication 101. If
1:50:48someone doesn't understand something, it
1:50:49doesn't help for you to just repeat the
1:50:51same
1:50:51>> What? It does It does ask a question.
1:50:53Don't just say, what?
1:50:55>> The reason that [laughter]
1:50:56the reason this relates to the episode
1:50:58is that
1:50:59when we kind of like looked into it
1:51:01deeper, there were some words missing
1:51:03that were helpful. Those were
1:51:04>> immersive immersive digital
1:51:06>> This is just studio. There's just one
1:51:07extra word I added.
1:51:09>> [laughter]
1:51:10>> And you still said, what?
1:51:12>> The The reason it relates to this
1:51:13episode, though,
1:51:16is, you know, it it depends on how you
1:51:18look at things, right? And
1:51:20>> Sophia
1:51:22breathed breath into humans and then we
1:51:24stopped understanding each other and
1:51:26we're up to mischief. That's how it
1:51:28relates.
1:51:29>> is this is really, you know, um a very
1:51:32very unique um
1:51:35a very unique NDE in that it encompassed
1:51:37so many other of the NDEs that felt so
1:51:40unique, right? His
1:51:42his experience, his understanding, and
1:51:45in particular the
1:51:46exploration he's done after, I think um
1:51:51I don't know, just feels like it ties
1:51:52together so many of the other themes
1:51:54that, you know, keep coming up for us
1:51:56here. One of the things we didn't get to
1:51:58speak about um as much was um a lot of
1:52:01the um physiological challenges that
1:52:03actually David continues to um
1:52:05experience. And we actually have a link.
1:52:08Um there's um
1:52:10yeah, there's actually a place where you
1:52:11can um learn more about what he's been
1:52:13going through and um be part of that if
1:52:15you would like to. So we'll include that
1:52:17link as well. Um really really such a um
1:52:20such a phenomenal conversation. Just
1:52:22really, feel so blessed to get to meet
1:52:24David Williamson. So, please join us on
1:52:27Substack. We know there'll be a lot of
1:52:28conversation about this episode and um,
1:52:30there's content there that you can't get
1:52:31anywhere else. So, head over to
1:52:33biologicbreakdown.substack.com.
1:52:35And from our breakdown to the one we
1:52:36hope you never have, we will see you
1:52:37next time.
1:52:38>> It's my biologic breakdown. She's going
1:52:40[music] to break it down for you. She's
1:52:42got a neuroscience PhD or two.
1:52:46And now she's going to break down to
1:52:48break down. [music] She's going to break
1:52:50it down.

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