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Harvard Psychiatrist: Your Identity Is Keeping You Stuck (Here's How to Change It) | Dr. K — Transcript

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0:00People will say to me, "Dr. K, I I have
0:02no motivation." That's incorrect. You
0:04have a ton of motivation. [music] You
0:05have a ton of motivation to stay home.
0:07You have a ton of motivation to play
0:08video games. There is such a powerful
0:10drive to return to the couch. So,
0:12identity shapes motivation. He is a
0:14psychiatrist, a Harvard-trained
0:16physician, and founder of HealthyGamer,
0:19one of the fastest-growing mental health
0:20communities in the world. Dr. K, thank
0:23you so much for being here. A loser is
0:25an adaptation that our mind forms to
0:27protect ourselves. If I think of myself
0:29[music] as a loser, other people will
0:31pick up on that empathic energy, and
0:33they will think of me as a loser as
0:34well. So, a loser never has imposter
0:37syndrome. We need to be defiant in
0:39[music] the face of the world. We need
0:40to be doing stupid action. Not giving up
0:42means being an idiot. Let [music] go
0:44over the possibility of it ever
0:45happening. 99% of karma happens in here.
0:48[music] When you have a thought, how do
0:50you respond to that thought? That is
0:52technically an action. How do we improve
0:55our self-identity
0:56if our identity [music] is holding us
0:58back? You know, one of the hardest
1:00challenges I have as a psychiatrist who
1:02works with like high performers
1:04is
1:10We were just talking maybe for the last
1:11hour about our lives and challenges
1:14we've overcome and what we're up to in
1:15our lives.
1:16Um and one of the things that I really
1:19care about here on the School of
1:20Greatness is helping people unlock their
1:22potential. Okay. Helping people live
1:25more meaningful, harmonious lives,
1:27helping people be on mission in their
1:29lives, having healthier relationships in
1:31their lives, and really
1:34living from a place of peace rather than
1:36pain.
1:38And everyone's gone through pain,
1:40everyone's gone through some type of
1:41trauma or suffering or sadness or loss
1:45or grief, and some of these things shape
1:48their identities. And I truly feel that
1:51our identity
1:52shapes our view of the world, and it can
1:55either support us in creating the life
1:58we want, or it can keep us stuck more
2:01traumatized, victim, and things like
2:03that. And I'm curious,
2:06how do we improve our self-identity
2:09if our identity is holding us back?
2:12I mean, my goal and what I try to help a
2:15lot of people do is to get rid of
2:16identity entirely.
2:19So, if we look at like the function of
2:20identity, you're spot-on that your
2:22identity is the lens through which you
2:25view the world.
2:27So, you know, I've worked with many
2:28people who will adopt a negative
2:31identity. So, the first thing to
2:32understand is even a negative identity,
2:34like I'm a loser,
2:35is not actually a negative identity.
2:37Mhm. A loser is an adaptation that our
2:40mind forms to protect ourselves. So, I
2:43was struggling with gaming addiction
2:45when I was like 18 years old, and you
2:48know, I had hopes, I had dreams,
2:51and not being able to achieve those
2:54dreams is so painful. So, one of the
2:57ways that we adapt is we become
3:00something that is not capable of
3:02success.
3:03Right? So, there are winners in life and
3:04there are losers in life, and I am a
3:06loser.
3:08And that thought comes with a lot of a
3:10negative emotion.
3:11The mistake that a lot of people end up
3:13making is they try to get rid of that
3:14negative emotion.
3:16They try to think like, "Okay, I'm a
3:17loser. Instead, I should be a winner."
3:20And there's a lot of value to a positive
3:23mindset, which we can get to, but like
3:24let's understand the fundamentals. First
3:26thing to understand is if you have a
3:28negative identity, it is serving you in
3:30some way.
3:31The human brain, our mind has evolved
3:34with all of these structures.
3:37And one of the simplest ways I I know
3:38you I'm sure you've had injuries, right?
3:41When you have an injury, the first thing
3:42that happens is we'll we'll form scar
3:44tissue.
3:45So, scar tissue is is tough, it's
3:47fibrous, and it protects us.
3:50So, the negative identities that we form
3:53help us from facing other things.
3:58So, if I'm a loser,
3:59I never have to try anymore, right? If I
4:03am lazy, it's not my fault.
4:06Because there's the people out there who
4:07are disciplined, and there are people
4:08out there who are lazy. And I'm one of
4:11the lazy ones. I'm unlucky.
4:13Then the problem becomes that our
4:15identity literally shapes the way that
4:19we move through the world.
4:20So, if I think of myself as ugly,
4:25and I go on a date, my expectations of
4:27the date, the way that I show up
4:31is going to heavily affect the date.
4:33Because human beings are empathic. So,
4:35if I walk into a room and I believe of
4:38myself, if I think of myself as a loser,
4:41other people will pick up on that
4:42empathic energy, and they will think of
4:44me as a loser as well.
4:46So, you know, if you go into a job
4:48interview and you're you don't think you
4:50belong. I see this all the time, it's
4:52really interesting.
4:53I see a ton of imposter syndrome. Uh
4:55when I was at Harvard, I would see a ton
4:57of imposter syndrome.
4:58Um and you'd think that imposter
5:00syndrome
5:02is fixed by success.
5:05But actually, success We'll get to this.
5:07I'm getting a little bit all over the
5:08place, but imposter syndrome is actually
5:10created by success.
5:12What do you mean? I know, it's weird.
5:14So, a loser never has imposter syndrome.
5:16You get that?
5:17>> Yeah. You only have People only think
5:19they're imposters when they achieve
5:20things. It's really bizarre.
5:22>> believe they're meant to achieve.
5:23>> Exactly, yeah. Right? So, when I end up
5:26in a place that it like Harvard, there's
5:28a ton of imposter syndrome. And these
5:30are with the most successful, smartest
5:32people in the world. Absolutely. And
5:34that imposter syndrome is created when
5:37the world views us in one way, but our
5:40identity is something else.
5:43So, the reason we have so much imposter
5:45syndrome in a place like Harvard is
5:46because you have a bunch of kids who
5:49thought of themselves as the smartest
5:51kid in the class.
5:53And then the moment they get into
5:54Harvard, I used to be valedictorian, now
5:57I'm average.
5:59>> I'm a nobody, yeah. Right? And then
6:01you're with all these you're with your
6:02peers, and suddenly used to be number
6:04one, now you're average, and so you feel
6:06like you don't belong because you've
6:07never been average.
6:08>> jockeying to like one-up and smarter
6:10than, and I know this better than you,
6:12and Absolutely.
6:13Right? So, this is identity is a tricky
6:15thing.
6:16So, first thing is negative identity is
6:19protective.
6:20So, that if you have some part of your
6:23identity that you think is bad,
6:26that you want to get rid of, wrong
6:28approach. Ask yourself, what is this
6:31what is this identity doing for me? When
6:33I think of myself as a loser, how does
6:35that protect me?
6:37You You mentioned that it's serving
6:39it's serving you in certain ways, but it
6:40may not be empowering you to live your
6:42fullest potential.
6:43>> Absolutely. And and and even a positive
6:46identity is not going to empower you to
6:48live to your fullest potential. So,
6:49we'll get to that. Right? So, there
6:51there are identities that we have that
6:53protect us from some negative things,
6:55and then we have positive identities,
6:57too. So, going back to the negative
6:59identity, this will shape the way that
7:01we perceive the world. So, it creates
7:02some kind of filter. Agree? Yes. So, I'm
7:05a loser, or I'm not beautiful, or I'm
7:07ugly, or I'm stupid. This identity that
7:10we speak and believe to ourselves shapes
7:13the way we view the world.
7:14>> Yeah, and it also shapes things like our
7:16motivation. Uh-huh. So, if you were So,
7:19this is going to get a bit technical for
7:21a second, if that's okay. But we get
7:23motivated based on an action-success
7:26calculation. So, what what our brain
7:28does is it looks at what the
7:29possibilities are. And if the
7:31possibility of success is high, it will
7:35be motivated towards it. Right? This is
7:37why
7:37>> more motivated if we believe there's a
7:39high possibility to succeed. And there
7:41will be more motivated. Right? This is
7:43why like if we sort of think about, you
7:45know, if I tell you, "Oh, hey, can you
7:46get me a glass of water?" That's easy
7:49for you to do because you can do that.
7:51You believe you can do that. You believe
7:52you can succeed. It's such a simple
7:54task, and we don't even think about
7:55motivation for getting someone a glass
7:57of water because our our perception that
8:00we can do it is like 100%.
8:02>> Yeah. So, we automatically do it. We
8:03don't even perceive that we're
8:04motivated. But it's easy to do.
8:07Now, if I don't believe I can do
8:09something,
8:10and if
8:11I can guarantee you that just about
8:13every human being who's watching this
8:15has something that they're capable of
8:17doing,
8:18but they don't believe that they can do
8:20it.
8:22And think about all the things in your
8:23life that you can have done that you did
8:26not think that you were capable of.
8:29And when you don't think you're capable,
8:31it becomes so hard.
8:34Because naturally, the part of your
8:35brain
8:37that is telling you whether you can do
8:39it or not, you know, if it doesn't
8:40believe you can do it, you have to
8:42overcome
8:44your limiting belief your limiting
8:45beliefs, yeah. You have to force
8:47yourself. You have to use things like
8:48willpower.
8:49Right? It's not really You're not really
8:50motivated. You have to like You're
8:52motivated to not try.
8:54Yeah, yeah. And you have to force
8:55yourself. But that comes from your
8:57identity. And then the moment that you
8:58believe that you can do it, it becomes
9:01easier to do.
9:03The big problem here and and you were
9:04asking a question about identity
9:06is in our you know, if we have some
9:08negative
9:11that will prevent us from doing certain
9:12things. It also motivates us to do other
9:14things. So, this is what a lot of people
9:16don't realize.
9:17People will say to me, "Dr. K, I I have
9:20no motivation." That's incorrect. You
9:22have a ton of motivation. You have a ton
9:23of motivation to stay home.
9:25You have a ton of motivation to play
9:26video games.
9:26>> Sit on the couch, don't watch TV, right?
9:28And just think about how motivated you
9:30are do If anyone pulls you out of that,
9:33there is such a powerful drive to return
9:36to the couch.
9:36>> Yes.
9:38So, identity shapes motivation. Mhm.
9:41Then we get to positive identity.
9:44Where positive identity says, "I can do
9:47something. I'm capable of doing things."
9:50Um sometimes, you know, this positive
9:52identity can turn into things like
9:54ambition. It can even turn into
9:56narcissistic tendencies, right? So,
9:58narcissism is a particular kind of
10:00positive identity. I think I'm great. I
10:03think I'm awesome. I'm the best. Other
10:05people are not as good as I am.
10:08So, in Sanskrit, you know, we have this
10:09word ahum God, which means ego. And
10:12there are three kinds of ego. There is a
10:16thamsic ego, which is like a negative
10:17identity. That is an identity which
10:20keeps you inert. It makes it hard for
10:23you to move. And then there is the raj
10:26identity. identity that motivates you to
10:29act.
10:30But this is also the identity that I
10:32have to do it. And it's not even that
10:34I'm great. I need to do it. I need to
10:36accomplish something. I need to help the
10:38world. I've worked with so many people
10:40who are 52 years old,
10:42multi-millionaires, and are working
10:44themselves towards a heart attack.
10:46Because they have this identity, I need
10:48to do it. I need to make people proud. I
10:49need to have an impact in the world. I
10:51want to do good.
10:54And so, even in service of that, they
10:56will have a lot of motivation. But the
10:58really interesting thing is that their
10:59motivation keeps them from slowing down.
11:03I'm motivated to always move. I can't
11:05rest.
11:06I can't sit still.
11:09A lot of high achievers or high
11:10performers have that Absolutely.
11:13that struggle to slow down, to rest, to
11:16take a break.
11:17>> And and we all we we all covet them.
11:20I want to be I wish when I woke up in
11:22the morning, I would flagellate myself.
11:25I wish I was so consumed by passion that
11:28I could work 90 hours a week, 100 hours
11:30a week. I wish I was like that.
11:32But those people suffer, too. They wind
11:34up in my office.
11:36So, this is where there is, you know, we
11:38start with a negative identity that
11:40protects us from certain emotions.
11:42Then there is a positive identity which
11:44activates us. But we are always chasing
11:47something.
11:49And this is the problem with the
11:50positive identity. You'll always move
11:52the goalposts. Yeah. So, you get a
11:55million subscribers on YouTube. What's
11:56enough? When's enough enough?
11:58>> Yeah, when's enough, right?
11:59And you always want more, you always
12:00want more, you always want more because
12:02that's what the identity The identity
12:03feels activated when it is achieving.
12:07It is the it is raising the bar that
12:10makes you feel really good. And so, then
12:12the bar now you actually become addicted
12:15to the bar going higher and higher and
12:17higher. And we think to ourselves,
12:19"Wonderful. That means I'll get more and
12:20more and more and more." But you won't
12:23attain peace.
12:25You'll become a slave to success.
12:28Absolutely not.
12:30So, then we have the third kind of
12:31identity, sattvic ahum God.
12:34This is the balanced identity.
12:37Where you have some amount of inertia.
12:39It's a balance between activity and
12:41inertia. See, we think that inertia is
12:43bad, but it's not. There's a balance
12:45between stillness and activity.
12:47And ideally, what you want to do, in my
12:49opinion, is get rid of all identity. Cuz
12:52remember that the negative identity
12:53shapes our perception. The positive
12:55identity will shape our perception as
12:57well.
12:58I've worked with some people who are
13:00problematic gam- gamblers and really
13:03believe in themselves. I can win. I can
13:06win. I'm special. They've lost a lot.
13:09But maybe they've won some, so they
13:10believe
13:11>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They've
13:13won a lot. Oh.
13:14>> They've lost some. Oh, they've won more
13:16than they've lost.
13:17>> Oh, yeah. So, how's that a problem?
13:19If they're always winning and they're
13:21not losing. Because they keep playing.
13:24But they
13:25>> Because they can't stop. Yeah. Right?
13:27So, yeah, they do keep winning.
13:29And sometimes they lose. Sometimes they
13:30have catastrophic mistakes. So, this is
13:32what's really interesting.
13:33You know, one of the hardest challenges
13:35I have as a psychiatrist who works with
13:37like high performers
13:38is
13:40helping people understand that if you're
13:41right 99% of the time
13:44your mistakes are more catastrophic.
13:46Yeah, cuz you you're like focused on the
13:48the losses, right?
13:49>> Not just that you that you don't realize
13:51you're making a mistake.
13:53So, if you're right 99% of the time
13:56the 1% of the time that you're wrong,
13:57what is your mind going to be telling
13:59you?
13:59>> "Oh, I made this Oh, maybe I'm not
14:01always right or maybe And and that's why
14:03so many people, you know, like it's I
14:05don't think we cover this enough. We
14:06talk about rags to riches. We don't talk
14:08about riches to rags.
14:10But there are way more human beings on
14:12the planet that go from riches to rags
14:13than go from rags to riches.
14:15And sometimes people make catastrophic
14:17mistakes because of this positive ego.
14:20Because I can handle it. But you can't.
14:22There are so many signals telling you to
14:24slow down. There are so many signals
14:26telling you this is this is a problem.
14:29This is not working out. So many people
14:30are telling you not to do it.
14:33And even your mind is telling you not to
14:35do it.
14:36But you can't afford to think that way.
14:39It is so scary. No, I can do it. I
14:41believe in myself. I can do it, you
14:44know? I got to believe.
14:46Don't give up. Keep going.
14:49And it can be absolutely catastrophic.
14:52So, how do you know when you should
14:55reinforce the belief that you can
14:57accomplish, achieve, overcome something
14:59that you feel pulled or drawn to do?
15:03And instead of, "Oh, I'm not even going
15:05to try at all." Yes. You know, how do
15:07you What's the balance there?
15:10It's a problem of perception.
15:12So, if we look at how identity literally
15:14neuroscientifically shapes us, it shapes
15:16our perceptions. If I think I'm a loser
15:19and someone I say hi to someone and they
15:22just say hi and they look away.
15:25Maybe this person lost their parent this
15:28morning.
15:29But if I'm a loser, I will take normal
15:31data from the world and I will shape it.
15:34If I have a positive identity, I will
15:36also do that. It's evidence reinforcing
15:39the belief that I have. It it's actually
15:41not evidence. It I shape my my belief
15:44shapes the evidence. The evidence
15:46doesn't shape the belief. My belief
15:48shapes the evidence. So, I see
15:50something, it could be a neutral event,
15:51but then it's shaping the belief. Yes.
15:54And this is a a huge problem where, you
15:57know, there are so many people I work
15:58with who are way too nice.
16:01And they're compassionate and they're
16:03kind and they're forgiving. And they get
16:06screwed time and time and time again.
16:09You know, they think to Oh, every human
16:11being on the planet deserves to be
16:12loved. So, [snorts]
16:15I'm going to let someone walk all over
16:17me. walk all over me. Or not even walk
16:19all over me. It's I will let someone
16:22take advantage of me once and I will
16:23forgive them and I will let them take
16:25advantage of me again.
16:26And I will forgive them. I feel like I
16:28did that for most of my life. A lot of
16:30people do. I feel like my We were
16:31talking beforehand off camera about you
16:34know, how you went through a midlife
16:35crisis in the last few years. I don't
16:37know if you publicly publicly shared
16:39that, but I feel like my midlife crisis
16:42was a couple years ago as well and it
16:44was shedding
16:4695% of relationships in my life that I
16:48had had that I felt like were
16:52and that I needed to create boundaries
16:53in those relationships. But Lewis, when
16:56you shed those relationships, don't you
16:57become a mean person? That's what I
16:59believed. Shouldn't you be a caring
17:01person who maintains your You want to be
17:03someone who maintains relationships,
17:05right? That's a good thing to be. That's
17:08what I believed and then it drained the
17:09life out of me.
17:10>> Absolutely.
17:10>> Constantly giving and constantly giving
17:12and constantly
17:13>> Because you are This is the positive
17:14identity. Oh, I want to be
17:16compassionate. I want to be great.
17:18Right? We feel so guilty when we step
17:21away from our positive identity.
17:24And then that guilt because I don't like
17:25the feeling of guilt. So, you know what?
17:27I'm going to let this person take
17:28advantage of me again.
17:29So, the goal, how do you tell?
17:32Positive identity will shape your
17:33perceptions as well. All identity will
17:35shape your perceptions. So, what we want
17:37to do is to see the world as it is, free
17:40of all perception. And the only way you
17:42can do that is to get rid of identity.
17:45Your identity, your ahum God
17:48This gets a bit tricky, but
17:50if I ask you, Lewis, who are you? What
17:53would you say?
17:54Well, my first thought is I'm a loving,
17:56passionate, wise man. Okay. Yeah. That's
17:59what I would say. Okay, great. Right?
18:01So, I'm a loving, passionate, wise man.
18:03So, we identify
18:05with all kinds of qualities. So, I I
18:07could say I'm a man, I'm a doctor I'm a
18:09husband, I'm a father. Um
18:12And and that's all part of my ego. So, I
18:15don't know if this makes sense.
18:16>> make the identity I'm a New York Times
18:17best-selling author. I'm a podcast. I
18:19can identify with accolades.
18:21>> You could identify with accolades. You
18:22could identify with vices. But here's
18:25the crazy thing. You were you before any
18:28of those things were true. You will be
18:29you after all of those things are gone.
18:32Right? So, I one of the most interesting
18:34questions that's, you know, I I
18:36struggled with is, when did I become a
18:37doctor?
18:39Is it the second I get my MD degree?
18:42So, for me it was being on call and and
18:45there was one particular instance where
18:48um there was a I I I I my pager went off
18:51and it was something called a rapid
18:52response. So, a nurse was like it's like
18:53a not quite an emergency. So, I go into
18:55this room semi-emergency semi- about to
18:58be If we don't do something right away,
19:00it's going to be an emergency. So, I I
19:02go into a room and um
19:05there's a patient who's having a
19:06seizure.
19:07And so, the nurse is there and I walk in
19:09and literally like 15 seconds later, my
19:11senior resident walks in. His
19:14name is Ken. He's an awesome guy. So,
19:15Ken walks to the other side of the the
19:17patient and he's like sitting there with
19:19his arms crossed. And I I So, I start
19:21reporting to him because I'm an intern.
19:23I've been an intern for 2 weeks,
19:24finished medical school like a couple
19:25weeks ago.
19:27And and so, I say, "Ken, you know,
19:28there's a 38-year-old woman who's
19:29started having a seizure. Seems like
19:31about 90 seconds ago." And then he looks
19:34at me, he's like, "Mhm."
19:36And I said, "Ken, the patient's having a
19:38seizure." He said, "Mhm."
19:42"Ken, what should we do?"
19:43He's like,
19:44"What do you want to do?" I I don't
19:46know. IV lorazepam like
19:481 mg or 2 mg? And he's like, "Which one
19:50do you want to do? 1 mg or 2 mg? I'm
19:52like,
19:542 mg? It looks like it's a big seizure.
19:57And he's like, sounds good.
19:58And so what's really scary is a seizure
20:00isn't dangerous for like 60 seconds, and
20:02Ken is Ken knows that everything is
20:04fine. But that's where like, you know,
20:05when some when you're panicking,
20:07you want him to take over. It's like,
20:09I've been doing this for 2 weeks, but I
20:10actually have the information. I I know
20:12the thing.
20:12>> You have the But you didn't have the
20:14autonomy yet. You didn't take over like
20:16>> I didn't take the autonomy, right? But I
20:17I had the ability. And and so that's why
20:20uh Ken was awesome. He's awesome, I'm
20:21sure. He's being a good leader. Being a
20:24good leader by
20:25not taking the responsibility from me.
20:28And so, you know, that was the moment I
20:30became a doctor.
20:32But I knew everything before then. If
20:35after I retire, will I still be a
20:36doctor? It's a piece of my identity. But
20:38I've always been me even before that.
20:41So, accolades are not bad. Parts of our
20:43identity are not bad per se. They're a
20:45necessary part of living in the world.
20:49But
20:50we should step away from them as much as
20:53possible.
20:54At the end of the day, in this moment,
20:56I'm not a doctor.
20:58I'm just me.
20:59And it what we really under what I
21:01really try to help people do is move
21:02from negative identity to positive
21:04identity. That's a step in the right
21:05direction. But then we want to shed all
21:07of that.
21:07>> Huh. And recognize that we're just
21:09humans.
21:11And you were a wise, passionate man. You
21:13weren't that before.
21:16In a weird way, but that's okay. Right?
21:18Because you had to go through the
21:21negative versions of yourself to be the
21:23current version of yourself. And if you
21:25try to hold on to being a wise,
21:27passionate man, you will be in trouble.
21:29That too is a stage. So, let that go,
21:31too.
21:32>> Let that go when you're ready. Yeah,
21:33yeah, yeah. Let it go.
21:35That was more for the
21:36giving an answer, you know? So, you're
21:38like, what who are you? I was like,
21:39okay, I'm a passionate man.
21:41>> is where, you know, I spent 7 years
21:42studying to become a monk. And and the
21:44answer of who I am is nothing. Mhm. I'm
21:46nothing. I'm empty. I'm just I'm just an
21:48organism. Mhm. I'm just a a random set
21:52of neurons, tissue,
21:55thoughts, emotions moving through the
21:57world. And a soul. And a soul. So,
21:59that's our purest form, right? So,
22:02identity is of the mind. It's a part of
22:04psychology.
22:05>> Uh-huh.
22:06But and as we practice these, you know,
22:08states of as we achieve states of
22:10meditation, you will feel emptiness.
22:13Yes. And emptiness is a beautiful thing
22:15because all of your problems disappear.
22:17>> Mhm. And then when you don't have an
22:20identity, see, if you believe that you
22:22are a wise man,
22:24and then you get some bit bit of
22:26information
22:28that is contrary to that,
22:29>> oh, maybe I'm not.
22:31>> and so then you're you're struggling,
22:32right? Because am I a wise man or am I
22:33not a wise man? Here's the crazy thing.
22:35You are a wise man and you are also not
22:38a wise man.
22:39And I'll make mistakes and I'll
22:41>> will make mistakes, right?
22:43And you will make mistakes that will
22:45lead to your wisdom, and you will make
22:47mistakes that'll make you an idiot.
22:49>> Yes.
22:50I'm brilliant and I'm an idiot. To hold
22:53multiple identities.
22:55>> I know a lot and I know nothing.
22:56Absolutely, right? So, that's how we
22:58transcend. There's this word that gets
23:00thrown around a lot. So, I think the
23:02ultimate goal is to transcend identity,
23:04to move away from all of those things.
23:05And all of those things are a part of
23:06you, but they're not you.
23:10Right? It It's It's a part of you, but
23:12it's not ultimately who you are. And
23:15when you step away from that, that's
23:16when you start when you stop thinking of
23:18yourself as wise, then you will be able
23:21to recognize your mistakes, and you will
23:23be able to recognize your wisdom. Yes.
23:25Wisdom is a piece of you. It is not you.
23:28Mhm.
23:29And so ultimately, we want to step away
23:30from all of that stuff, in my opinion,
23:32if you want to be happy. How do you
23:35think about identity for yourself living
23:37in a material, physical world where
23:40you have to, you know, organize things
23:42and strategize the future and bring
23:44people together and plan and pay bills
23:47and bring in money and
23:49>> Yeah. present yourself and have
23:51credentials and study. Like, how do you
23:53think about identity personally for
23:54yourself?
23:55>> this is this such a weird thing. But
23:57what what I want you to understand is
23:59that identity is a vritti.
24:01Vritti is a fluctuation within the mind.
24:03Identity is not an object. It is an
24:06activity. Yes.
24:09>> Ongoing.
24:10And goes away. Yeah. Okay.
24:11>> So so I I want you to literally think
24:13about this precisely, okay?
24:15When you're taking a dump, are you a
24:18wise, passionate man?
24:20I still am. I still am, but I'm in that
24:23moment taking a dump.
24:24Are How would I know that you were a
24:27wise, passionate man if I were to
24:29just It
24:30>> It would be more of a self-reflection of
24:32a knowing, but someone else wouldn't
24:33know.
24:34>> So, in that moment, you're not a wise
24:36You're just a dude taking a dump, right?
24:39So, this is what I mean. So, so your
24:40identity literally activates and
24:42deactivates. That's what people need to
24:43understand. It is It is It is a It is an
24:46energetic pattern.
24:47So, we know this because like we have
24:49this thing in in here in psychiatry, we
24:50talk about the narcissistic defense.
24:52Mhm. What is that? That is when we pump
24:55ourselves up when we feel threatened.
24:58So, if I say, you're stupid,
25:00you say, no, I'm not. Mhm. Here are all
25:03the reasons how I can prove to you that
25:04I'm not stupid. Uh-huh. So, that's
25:06narcissism. If you criticize a
25:08narcissist, they will put you down,
25:11they'll attack you back, they'll pump
25:13themselves up.
25:15So, identity literally, if you look at
25:17like, as you go through the day, right?
25:20And and I'll maybe I'll use it another
25:21example. So, you you know, I don't know
25:23if this is public or not, but I I think
25:24you just had a couple kids, can I say
25:25that?
25:26Right? So,
25:27you know, when you're holding one or
25:29both of your daughters,
25:31you are just a dad.
25:32>> You're just present. You're just
25:33present, right? You're not even a dad.
25:35It It It's weird. We think a dad is
25:37everything that you do for your kids.
25:39When you're holding them in that moment
25:41and they're asleep in your arms or
25:42you're watching them sleep, you're not
25:43even a dad. You are just an organism
25:46that is in bliss. Observing. Observing,
25:49right? You're just in that moment. And
25:50when you're doing that, like,
25:52someone else will see a dad in you, but
25:54in your mind, there's no identity of
25:56dad.
25:57Right? There's identity of dad when when
25:59they take their first steps. There's
26:01identity of dad when you watch them
26:02graduate. There's maybe identity of dad
26:04if they get married one day. That's when
26:06there's identity of dad.
26:07But in the moments that you're with
26:08them, there's no identity. So, identity
26:10is something that turns on and turns
26:12off.
26:13So, for me,
26:15and and this is what becomes important
26:16because we require identities to
26:19function in the world.
26:21Right? I have to have an identity as a
26:23doctor in order to be a doctor. I can't
26:25let that go.
26:25>> is important for you to step into
26:27identity Perfect.
26:29>> times. And then step out of it, right?
26:31When So, when someone comes at you,
26:35you need your ego.
26:37I'm not I'm not a POS. I deserve
26:39respect. What you are doing is not okay.
26:42I deserve better. But this is the key
26:45thing and this I think gets
26:47misunderstood a lot because in, you
26:48know, in these contemplative traditions,
26:50we talk about being egoless.
26:52The goal isn't to be egoless. The goal
26:54is for you to be in control of your ego,
26:57not have your ego be in control of you.
26:59>> Yeah. So, I think about my ego and my
27:01identity is a guard dog. And if I tell
27:04it to attack, it attacks. There are
27:06times where it gets antsy on its own. A
27:09stranger comes in and my ego activates,
27:12but I need to take a step back. I need
27:14to tell the dog to calm down.
27:16You know, this is not When a patient
27:18says, "Hey, Dr. K, I've been coming here
27:20for 6 months and I don't even know if
27:22I'm getting better."
27:23Right. And then I say, "I am a
27:25Harvard-trained psychiatrist. If you are
27:28not I have thousands of patients that
27:29are getting better. You are not getting
27:31better?" You're the problem. Yeah, yeah.
27:32You're the problem. Yeah. You are not
27:34doing the treatments properly. That's
27:35why.
27:36You know, it's not my fault. And then
27:38that that naturally arises. The
27:40narcissistic defense naturally arises.
27:42And there may be times where I have to
27:44defend myself.
27:45And there may be times where I need to
27:46receive that criticism with
27:49perceive that in the right way.
27:51>> Uh-huh. What is there a part of your
27:53identity or ego that still gets the best
27:56of you?
27:58Every day.
27:59All the time.
28:01Um I think for me, it's being a loser.
28:05That's what you believe or think?
28:06>> Yeah, I am a loser.
28:08Like, I'm
28:10I like literally, I lose every day. I
28:12make so many mistakes.
28:13>> Uh-huh. You know?
28:15Like, I failed so many classes.
28:20I had to apply to medical school
28:21120 times to get in.
28:24You know, it took me 3 years to get into
28:25med school. Wow.
28:27Um even today, you know, I'll make a
28:28YouTube video that sometimes has a
28:30million views in in 10 days. Sometimes
28:32has 100,000 views in 10 days.
28:35I I am a loser.
28:37So, here's the other thing.
28:39There are parts of the negative parts of
28:41our identity are only a problem if we
28:43make them a problem.
28:45And I can accept, like, of course I'm a
28:47loser. That doesn't mean I'm not also a
28:49winner. I have both of these things
28:51within me. Yeah. Right? I'm a good I'm a
28:53good husband, really important, and I'm
28:56a bad husband. Mhm.
28:58The moment that I start believing that I
29:00am exclusively a good husband is the
29:02moment that my wife gets screwed.
29:05Really? Absolutely.
29:07I need to accept that at times I'm a bad
29:10husband. At times I'm a good husband.
29:14No one on this planet is perfect. Mhm.
29:18So, there's a lot of data that shows
29:20that the more cognitively flexible
29:22you are around your identity,
29:25the better off you will be.
29:28And and I don't know if this kind of
29:29makes sense. I know it sounds weird, and
29:30I know it runs kind of contrary to
29:33some of the stuff that you may say, but
29:35I think you do this, right? I think you
29:38you must in order to achieve what you've
29:39achieved.
29:41You must consider your weak parts. You
29:44must acknowledge 100%. Yeah, yeah.
29:46>> Right? That if I do not act in the right
29:49way, my baser nature will take control.
29:52Yeah, of course. There is an addict, a
29:54degenerate gamer who lives inside of me.
29:57>> Mhm. And if I'm not careful, that will
29:59come out again.
30:00>> Right, right. There's an importance of
30:03stepping into an identity that is more
30:05empowering than disempowering, I
30:07believe. As opposed to I'm a loser,
30:09there's no chance I'm going to win this
30:10game.
30:11I'm going to mess up, you know, if I'm
30:12having a disempowering
30:14identity or belief,
30:16it's probably not going to serve me.
30:18Absolutely. So, here's here's if you
30:20think you're a winner,
30:21it starts to become other people's
30:23fault. Mhm.
30:25Then you're you're right that it it
30:27there's a tension because now if you
30:29think of yourself as a winner and you
30:30get data that you're not winning,
30:32>> Yes. now your identity is threatened.
30:35This is what happened to me also because
30:37here first I was a loser and then I was
30:40like I was picked last, you know, on
30:42teams. I was made fun of. I was in
30:45special needs classes. So, all these
30:47things I didn't have the psychological
30:49or emotional tools as an 8-year-old on
30:52how to navigate the emotions of the
30:54world and fit into groups and societies
30:57and teams. So, I just associated oh, I'm
31:00picked last. I'm in special needs. I'm
31:03in the bottom of my class. I am a loser.
31:05Those I am statements I believed.
31:08Then I said, let me work so hard to
31:11improve this so that I'm never picked
31:13last and so that I'm a winner. And I did
31:15that for years.
31:17And it worked. I started getting picked
31:19first. I started being, you know, the
31:20best on the team, whatever it is through
31:22middle school and high school.
31:23But then everything became about
31:26winning. It was like if I don't win,
31:29then my identity is going to crumble,
31:31right? It was like then now I'm a loser.
31:33And [snorts] so my whole life became
31:35threatened with the idea of if I'm not a
31:37winner, then I'm a loser. That way I
31:39have to win at everything. And winning I
31:42associated winning with being right.
31:44So, if I was wrong, I'm a loser. If I
31:47lose, I'm a loser. And so I tried to
31:49defend this identity, like you said,
31:52by being right and winning in
31:55everything. Sports, business,
31:56relationships until I hit about 29 or 30
31:59years old.
32:01And I realized life was not about
32:04winning and losing. It was about
32:06win-win.
32:08How do I create a win-win scenario even
32:10if I'm losing in a situation?
32:13And
32:15that became a part of my process was
32:18seeing everything as from a lens of how
32:21do I create win-win? What does that look
32:23like? This this experience instead of I
32:26need to be right, I need to win at all
32:28costs. So, so I think there's it's
32:30beautiful because people are probably
32:32asking how do I how do I get from loser
32:35to winner to beyond? Uh-huh. And and I
32:38would even argue that you were doing
32:40what I'm saying.
32:41>> Yeah.
32:42So, I and people can even rewind this
32:45and pay attention to the subject of your
32:47sentences.
32:48>> Yes.
32:49How do I create win-win? The object is
32:52outside of you. I am a winner, I am a
32:55loser.
32:56>> Mhm. So, when we transcend identity, we
32:59don't focus on the ego. We focus on the
33:02action. Mhm. We actually divorce our
33:05identity we become independent of the
33:08action.
33:08>> Mhm. This is a lesson that I learned the
33:11hard way in in residency because you
33:14know, you get trained to like you think
33:17as a doctor like I save lives, right?
33:19Like that's what we do, doctor, save
33:20lives.
33:22>> then you like learn the hard way like
33:24you can't save a life.
33:25>> and people die on your table.
33:28Absolutely. How does that feel? And not
33:30to get off, how does that feel when
33:31you're told your whole life I'm going to
33:33go and save lives and then you see
33:34someone whether it be in residency or
33:36you watch someone die after an operation
33:39and you're like, oh, we actually didn't
33:41save a life and
33:43these are really good doctors around me.
33:46How did that feel the first time?
33:48Numb. Yeah. So, people think it feels
33:50bad, but my experience was numbness. I I
33:52remember I mean, this is a bit graphic
33:53and
33:54so I remember I was doing chest
33:56compressions on a guy who was having his
33:58third code in the hospital.
34:00And like What's code mean? What is that?
34:02Uh like so he's having a
34:04arrhythmia, so his heart was not
34:05beating. Yeah, so his heart was not
34:07beating
34:08um the way it's supposed to. His heart
34:09was fluttering or fluttering and so it
34:11wasn't able to beat. So, he was
34:14rather large dude and and I remember
34:16like doing chest compressions and what
34:19they don't show you in the shows is that
34:22like sometimes when you start doing
34:23chest compressions, people will vomit.
34:25Yeah, it comes up.
34:26>> And and so I remember I had gloves on
34:28and and all I could really remember was
34:31like the feeling of the vomit hitting my
34:33elbows and then going down the arm and
34:35into the gloves.
34:37And and it's In your gloves, yeah.
34:39>> gloves, right? Like and it's like nasty
34:41because like we don't like things in
34:42gloves to begin with. Like if you've
34:43ever done the dishes with no gloves,
34:45it's just those dumps down on your
34:46hands. And then that it's vomit and
34:48there's someone dying underneath you and
34:50and you know, so then it's like I
34:51remember
34:51>> the stress and the pressure because like
34:53I was pushing and he's like vomiting on
34:55me and I'm getting this stuff in my
34:56gloves and like there's a part of my
34:57mind that's like maybe I should push
35:00less.
35:01That way he'll stop vomiting on me, but
35:03like no, we're not going to push him.
35:06>> to save a life.
35:06>> We're trying to save a life. And so my
35:08experience from that was just after
35:10afterward I was just numb. Like I was
35:12just like, what the hell was that? Like
35:14>> Did he come back? Did he Did he
35:15resuscitate? He didn't make it. Didn't
35:17make it. I mean, he was there was no way
35:18he was going to Yeah, yeah. I mean, he
35:20he was gone days before.
35:22>> Um and so you just learn real quick, you
35:26you know, and and for me it happened
35:28pretty quickly cuz I I'd had this
35:29training, right? Like on yoga and
35:31meditation and understanding some of
35:33these things, but that that and there
35:36was another patient that came in with a
35:37couple of gunshot wounds when I was
35:39working a shift in the emergency room.
35:41Um and you learn very quickly that you
35:43don't have the power of life over death.
35:45You know, you just don't have that. It's
35:47not something that you're entitled to.
35:48>> You can't save a life. You can do your
35:50best to support life in staying.
35:53>> you can do is act. Wow. So, there's a
35:57there's a great principle from sort of
35:59like Eastern
36:00meditative traditions. As a human being,
36:03all you're entitled to is your actions,
36:07not the fruits of your actions. Mhm. And
36:10this is a beautiful way to get over the
36:11ego. Yeah, I mean, it's the whole What's
36:14the quote around like
36:18planting seeds under
36:20Oh, yeah. trees of shade that you will
36:21not sit in the future. It's like I don't
36:23know what that is. Do you know what I'm
36:23talking about?
36:24>> Yeah, so so it's the world is a good
36:25place when you plant a seed
36:29under whose shade
36:30>> shade you'll never sit in. Yeah, so
36:31something like that, right?
36:32>> It's like putting in this work that you
36:34won't get the benefit from. Yeah. But
36:36others will. And the beautiful thing is
36:39you have been benefiting from everyone
36:41else in history for your life now. Yeah,
36:43so I think it's more drastic than that
36:45>> Oh. even, right? So, this is not doing
36:48work
36:49for shade that will come.
36:51You You're You're entitled to plant a
36:53seed, but even then you don't know that
36:56the shade will be there. That's true.
36:57You have a point, yeah.
36:58>> as a human being, as a doctor, you don't
37:00like you can do everything, right? So, I
37:02work now with people who are like
37:03suicidal.
37:04And like you can do everything that you
37:06can do, but you can never stop a human
37:08being from taking their own life.
37:10You can try.
37:11>> You That's hard as you can go. And and
37:14And that's the huge part, right? So, the
37:16moment that you start focusing on your
37:18actions,
37:19what can I do? Not what happens.
37:23Too many people are held back by their
37:26ambitions. They're held back by the
37:28target cuz we think to ourselves, okay,
37:30like if I don't have a goal, how am I
37:33going to motivate myself?
37:35But you have to be really careful about
37:37a goal as a source of motivation. Should
37:39we have goals?
37:41Sure.
37:43Why do you hesitate? So, let's think
37:46about how the a goal affects the
37:48motivational system. So, I think we
37:49should have goals with care.
37:51>> Should we have goals without focusing on
37:53the outcome of the goal as part of our
37:55happiness? Yes. So, we should be
37:57detached We should have goals, but we
37:59should be detached from our goals.
38:00>> From the results. Yeah, so a way to put
38:03it like I'll I'll kind of give a simple
38:04analogy to start because then we're
38:06going to get technical.
38:07See, it's okay
38:10to want Let's say I want a fried chicken
38:12sandwich. It's okay to want a fried
38:14chicken sandwich.
38:15But are you unhappy if you don't get it?
38:18Let's say you go to a restaurant and
38:19you're like, hey, can I get a fried
38:20chicken sandwich? They're like, oh,
38:20we're out.
38:22How do you respond to that?
38:23>> Yeah. So, one of the biggest challenges
38:25for me, so I was planning on becoming a
38:27monk
38:28and then met my wife.
38:30And then that was like
38:31>> You're not allowed to be a monk. Yeah.
38:33And so I was I was really like
38:34struggling internally because I had this
38:36idea of like, okay, I'm going to be like
38:38free from attachment and celibacy and
38:40I'm not going to be like these other
38:41humans who are you know, falling in
38:44love.
38:44>> From all these lustful thoughts and
38:46everything. Yeah, no, I I need to be
38:47better than that, right? Lust is for
38:49animals.
38:50I will be greater.
38:52So, one of my teachers
38:53>> So, it was seven years you studied to be
38:54a monk, is that what it is? But when you
38:56were studying to be a monk, I met my
38:57wife. You weren't being a monk You
38:59weren't living as a
39:00>> No, but I told her I was like, girl,
39:02look, I'm sorry, babe. This is a
39:03temporary thing, you know, this
39:05connection that we have like it's it's a
39:06temporary. Yeah, like I'm I'm planning
39:08on taking my vows, so it's like it's
39:10fine for us to, you know, hang out and
39:12>> yeah, this will be my last hurrah. I
39:14just I I just want you to know out of
39:15respect, Really? I want you to know out
39:18of respect that that I'm going to take
39:20my vows when, you know, a couple years
39:22from now.
39:23>> Why hadn't you taken it yet within seven
39:24years?
39:25>> Oh, I tried. So, at the age of 21 I went
39:27to my teachers and I said, hey, I want
39:29to become a monk. And they said? And
39:30they said, being a monk is about giving
39:33up your life. You have nothing worth
39:34giving up.
39:35Literally. Oh, so you have to have
39:37something
39:38>> Exactly. They're like you're just You're
39:40away. You're running away. You haven't
39:42achieved anything.
39:44So first thing you should do is go back,
39:46get a doctoral degree,
39:48and then give it all up. And then give
39:49it all go
39:51come back when you're 30 and so they
39:52they let me come back and they're like
39:54we'll continue teaching you and training
39:55you but you don't get to take your vows
39:57until you're 30 years old and you have a
39:59doctoral degree. Those were their two
40:00requirements.
40:01>> Then you could give it up and come live
40:03like that but Okay.
40:05Not everyone has done that to become a
40:07monk though. Some people are younger
40:09when they become a monk, right?
40:10>> Yeah, yeah. So I mean these were my
40:11teachers, right? So so my teachers were
40:14amazing. They also knew me very well.
40:16>> They're like yeah, you really don't want
40:17this.
40:19You know, you don't you don't realize
40:20and they they they explained something
40:21interesting to me. They said that
40:23becoming a monk is going to be harder
40:25than anything you do in the real world.
40:27So if you can't succeed in the real
40:28world you're not going to succeed as a
40:30monk. You'll fail as a monk, yeah.
40:33Right?
40:33>> Wow. So so so that's how I ended up
40:35getting a target of of you know, okay,
40:37I'm going to I'm going to become a
40:38doctor and And do something big that I
40:40have to then sacrifice and give up.
40:42>> Absolutely. So so that was also where
40:44you
40:44>> Then I'll be worthy. Then my ego will be
40:46worthy to be a monk. Um not quite but
40:49but yeah, great joke. You know, that
40:51there's the so that this is what I had
40:52at that time. I had the ego of having no
40:54ego. Uh-huh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have no
40:56ego.
40:57>> [laughter]
40:58>> Other people have ego. I'm so above
41:00everything. I'm beyond this.
41:04Um and speaking of identity, you know,
41:06so so I was
41:07>> That's an identity itself.
41:08>> That wasn't it's an identity where I
41:10devalued
41:12the things that I had failed at.
41:14Sure. So like in college this is pretty
41:16classic. I don't know what your college
41:18experience was like but you know, like
41:19you're into a girl and you ask her out
41:21and then she says no and then you tell
41:24your bros, you're like yeah, I wasn't
41:25that into her anyway.
41:27She's not beneath me anyways, yeah. Like
41:29it's like ah like
41:31Whatever.
41:31>> So so we devalue things to protect
41:32ourselves. We develop this identity.
41:34Yeah.
41:35So you So when you're meeting her, you
41:36said I'm going to be a monk. This is for
41:38fun the next year or whatever but then
41:40Don't get too attached to me. Yeah,
41:41right. Right. Right. Cuz I like I didn't
41:43want to hurt her, you know, like oh, I
41:44didn't want to hurt her. Yeah, yeah.
41:46Cuz like
41:47being in a relationship with me like
41:49when when it ends it's so painful for
41:51anybody that I'm with. Oh my god.
41:53My compassion.
41:55>> [laughter]
41:56>> I don't want to hurt you from the
41:57parting of me. Oh, And so yeah,
42:01and then what happened? I so so the
42:03first thing is she's like
42:05amazing and she knows me well. So she
42:06was not worried at all. She's like
42:09you're not going to become a monk.
42:11There's no way this is happening.
42:12>> yeah. You know, like
42:13>> You're too attached to this medical
42:14stuff over here, yeah. So so then I I
42:17you know, went decided to go to medical
42:19school and and stuff like that and it's
42:20really crazy cuz I I never looked at my
42:22grades when I was in med school.
42:24And so I I got a call from one of my
42:26mentors and after graduation he's like
42:28where where are you at the award
42:30ceremony? And I was like I'm I don't
42:32know. I'm like I'm like at home.
42:33He's like well, I'm presenting you with
42:35an award. Like why aren't you here? I
42:36was like I I didn't even know.
42:38I I I'd gotten so divorced from the
42:41outcomes of my actions. I I just showed
42:44up and
42:45even when I you know, sometimes when I
42:47was in residency, you get all these kids
42:49from Harvard who were like really great.
42:51And then they get a B
42:53and then they're devastated and and I
42:54have to do this thing where I try to
42:55explain to them
42:57you're not here for grades. Like you got
42:59to understand at at some point
43:02you're going to be like in an elevator
43:05and you know, someone is going to start
43:07giving birth when you're trapped in an
43:09elevator. And grades don't matter at
43:11that point. And grades don't matter. You
43:12you don't get to say
43:14you know, and I'm a psychiatrist but
43:16like I don't get to say oh, you're in
43:18labor. Like sorry, I'm a psychiatrist. I
43:20can't help you.
43:21No, you have to do your duty. You have
43:23to. So so on a plane if you're on a
43:25Residency residency in medical school is
43:27about like learning how to be a doctor
43:29because one day someone will depend on
43:31you. So it's not about being a great
43:33doctor being at the top of your class.
43:34It's about focusing on learning the
43:36material for its own sake.
43:39And I think when you talk about making
43:41things win-win, I think if we really
43:43were to do like an x-ray of your mental
43:46structure
43:47we would see that you would be very
43:49focused on action. Mhm. You'd be
43:51altering your perception.
43:53Right? You're not going to give yourself
43:55some pat on the back and oh, I'm a
43:57winner and I'm a wise compassionate man,
43:59you know, like like that that's not
44:01that's not the copium that you're going
44:03to be huffing which is what the kids say
44:04nowadays. Huffing? Yeah, huffing copium.
44:06Okay. Yeah, that's what the kids say.
44:08>> Sure. Um
44:10You know, so you're going to be really
44:11focused on okay, like how do I integrate
44:13this data? This is negative feedback.
44:15How do I incorporate this feedback? How
44:17do I plan on this feedback? So there's
44:18no you involved. It's almost like you're
44:20like you know, that it's just
44:21information coming in, calculation,
44:24change in in the outside world.
44:26And people may think that that feels
44:28really sterile but the other side of it
44:30is when you're
44:31holding your child. There's no ego
44:33there.
44:34There's just you being present.
44:37And if we look at action, what's really
44:39cool about action is action is what when
44:40you're one with action, that's when
44:42you're the most present. So just focus
44:44on doing the thing. It is not in your
44:46power
44:48to
44:49have something happen. Yeah, the
44:50results. Results are out of your hands.
44:53>> Yeah, but focusing on the action today
44:55or this moment the action the next best
44:57action. Yes. And this is the problem we
44:59were talking about goals. The problem
45:01with goals is that goals actually get us
45:03away from actions. Mhm, really? Yeah.
45:06>> How so?
45:07When is a goal?
45:10It's a weird question, I know.
45:12When is a goal?
45:13Well, if you create a goal with a
45:14timeline, you can have Is there ever a
45:17goal without a timeline?
45:19Some people have a goal and say I want
45:21to write a book or I want to launch a
45:23podcast or I want to be in a
45:24relationship.
45:25>> When is that? But when is it? Is it now?
45:28They don't say when sometimes but I
45:30think if they say when Even if I say I
45:32want to write a book Yeah. it's not
45:34today. Right, it's in the It's in the
45:35future. Yes. All goals are things that
45:38will happen ideally. Yes. All goals are
45:41in the future. When does action happen?
45:44Now or when you take the action.
45:47Uh and when you take the action, when is
45:49it?
45:51In that moment. Exactly. Action happens
45:53now. Goal is in the future. Fundamental.
45:56I know it's a weird we don't ask
45:57ourselves these questions. Yeah.
45:59But
46:00so this is the problem with goal.
46:02Right? So this is what's really scary is
46:04the most ambitious goal is the easiest
46:08to procrastinate on. I want to write a
46:10book.
46:11How long does that take? Oh, it takes
46:14two years.
46:16Okay, so you're saying it takes like 720
46:18days?
46:20Why don't we just do a little bit more
46:22work in 719? Mhm. So goals are really
46:25sneaky things.
46:27It's not that they're bad. So our our
46:29frontal lobes require some way to
46:32organize time.
46:33>> Organize time, strategy, right? So you
46:35need that for the sake of a goal. But if
46:37you're not careful, a goal will induce
46:40procrastination. Cuz you seem it's too
46:42much work. I can't do it right now or
46:45it's daunting or Yeah, it it
46:47if you're if you're lucky, that's what
46:49you feel. Because then you know, oh my
46:52god, this is overwhelmed. I need to fix
46:53this. What's way more dangerous is oh, I
46:56can take care of it tomorrow.
46:58It's not even daunting. You never take
46:59the action.
47:00>> You never take the action.
47:02Right? So action is completely
47:03independent of goal.
47:06And accomplishing big goals involves
47:09taking lots of action. So focus on
47:10action, not on the goal. Mhm. The other
47:13really interesting scary neuroscience
47:14thing is that What if someone says
47:17okay, I don't have a goal but I'm just
47:19taking the action like I'm learning
47:21Spanish every day. I'm taking the action
47:23to practice Spanish every day.
47:25But if I just said well, I don't have
47:26the goal to learn Spanish and be able to
47:28speak it, then why am I doing it? Why am
47:31I doing the action if there's nothing
47:33that I'm actually looking to step into?
47:36Just for the action's sake. Great
47:37question. So goals serve a function.
47:40Once again, the goal here is
47:42is not to get rid of this stuff. Uh-huh.
47:44So in order to be a functional human
47:46being if we're pursuing enlightenment
47:49the enlightened person has no goals.
47:50They just exist. They're just better
47:53than all the goals in the world.
47:55Their ego is above Yeah. [laughter]
47:58They've abandoned all that stuff.
48:00They're above it. They're just chilling.
48:02They're not above it all. They're not
48:03Yeah, I know.
48:05So so goals serve a neuroscientific
48:08purpose. They organize our frontal
48:09lobes. They allow us to sequence out
48:12things. So that's good but a goal being
48:15used to sequence things.
48:18I'll give you an example.
48:20I'm going to the airport later today. So
48:22I had to pack. Yeah.
48:24But packing has it's not like it's it's
48:26a goal that I have to do but I'm not
48:28like attached to it anyway. It just
48:30helps me organize the sequence of events
48:32and then I have to take the actions.
48:33There's no identity caught up in it. I'm
48:35not like eh
48:37Look at me. Look at me. Look at me.
48:38Graduated Harvard. Yeah, yeah. Back to
48:40my own undies. You know, I'm great, bro.
48:43You know, so so this is where goals are
48:45important but we should never have them
48:48serve a greater function than what they
48:50really should be serving. What should
48:52they be serving?
48:53Helping us organize action. That's it.
48:56But when you had a you know, when your
48:59monk teacher said go become a doctor or
49:01do something
49:02and then come back to us when you're
49:03ready to give that thing up and you said
49:06all right, I'm going to go to medical
49:06school and I'm going to become a doctor.
49:09Uh
49:10you had a goal in mind.
49:12>> Yes. You needed to you wanted to
49:13accomplish something, some type of
49:15learning experience, credibility.
49:17And there was a deadline to when you
49:19needed to accomplish it by, right?
49:21Right. So how did you navigate the goal
49:24and the actions with that? Yeah, so so
49:26so
49:27beautiful example because it's an
49:28example of I didn't care
49:31that I accomplished the goal. This is
49:32the really weird thing.
49:33>> You didn't care if you were to
49:33accomplish it or not.
49:34>> No no, so I needed to accomplish it,
49:36right? So goals are necessary, but we
49:38don't need to get attached to them. We
49:40don't need to get hung up. They're
49:41necessary steps, just like packing. I
49:43have to pack. But you weren't attached
49:45to the result.
49:45>> I wasn't attached to the result.
49:46>> Whether you became a doctor or not, you
49:48weren't attached.
49:48>> Yeah. Well, I mean, I was attached, but
49:50I tried really hard not to be. Got you.
49:52Right? And And that's why like I never
49:53looked at my grades. I was like, "Okay,
49:55I'm going to like someone will tell me
49:56if I fail. Like I'll get an email if I
49:58fail." And I didn't fail, so whatever.
49:59I'm focusing on learning the material.
50:01>> That's That's good.
50:01>> Right? So, I I know it's it's it's I
50:03love that you're asking these questions
50:05because it's so counterintuitive from
50:06the way that we think. Mhm. Here's the
50:09reason that detachment from our goals is
50:11really We want goals, we want to be
50:12detached. Here's why.
50:14If you have a stumble
50:17towards your goal
50:19and you are attached to it, you are more
50:21likely to give up. Mhm. So, your brain
50:23says, "Okay, why are we doing this?
50:26We're doing this in order to get this."
50:28And now we get a bit of information that
50:30that becomes less likely.
50:32So, then our brain says, "Okay, we're
50:34not going to achieve the goal."
50:36So, I see this all the time in in the
50:37patients that I work with who have early
50:39stage sobriety.
50:41And so, it's really interesting because
50:42when they start to relapse
50:45I I I I've been sober for 160 days. I
50:47have I had one bad night of alcohol, and
50:50now it's ruined. I lost all of my
50:53sobriety. What do you think they do the
50:54next day?
50:56Go drink more.
50:57>> Absolutely. Now that it's busted
50:59>> Screw it. might as well. Right? Uh so,
51:01the self-loathing,
51:03like all this kind of stuff. So, if you
51:06if you want an outcome
51:08and something gets in the way, if you
51:11have a setback your attachment to the
51:13outcome is going to cause you to give
51:15up.
51:16So, when someone has a setback, how do
51:18we how should they process that setback
51:21and continue moving forward towards the
51:22goal
51:24whether they're attached or detached to
51:26the outcome? Great question. Can I give
51:27another example before this?
51:29>> So
51:32this is also why people don't get
51:34started.
51:36So, like, you know,
51:38I struggle with this a lot. Maybe this
51:39is something people can empathize with.
51:41If you're not sure you can achieve
51:43something
51:44it's really hard to get started.
51:45>> Mhm.
51:46So, I I would I would do this thing
51:48where if I got like I I had like less
51:50than a 2.0 GPA. I'd failed a lot of
51:52classes. So, I was like, "Okay, I need
51:53to get straight A's for both." Yeah, but
51:56you became a medical doctor and I
51:58didn't.
51:59Potato, potato. Yeah, exactly. Um
52:02so, I did this thing where like, you
52:04know, since I needed A's, now I I I have
52:07like a 1.0 GPA. So, I need a 4.0 to
52:10balance it out. Right? I I need to have
52:12an A. I can't afford to get a B in order
52:15to save my GPA.
52:16>> That's stress.
52:16>> So, so then what would happen is if I
52:18got a B on my first test, I'd drop the
52:20class.
52:21Because I can't hit my goal anymore. I'm
52:23going to give up.
52:24So, it's so easy to not get started when
52:28we are attached to our goal. Because
52:29think about when I'm attached to the
52:30goal, I need I I can't ask her out yet,
52:33bro, because I need her to I'm so in
52:35love.
52:36I can't hit like I can't I wouldn't be
52:37able to live with myself. So, what am
52:39going What am What am I going to do? I'm
52:40going to take her to the airport. I'm
52:42going to be there for her.
52:44But I'm never going to shoot my shot.
52:46I'm never going to take that chance.
52:47>> Friend zone. Because I can't afford to
52:50lose. I have to win. I want to win. I
52:53have ambition. I have goals. I have
52:56dreams.
52:59And so, unless it's going to work, I
53:01can't I can't try. Mhm.
53:04As we detach from the goal
53:07right? As we let go
53:09which is challenging. It requires a lot
53:10of There's a lot of emotion to towards
53:12it. I think a lot of people run away
53:14from the negative emotion. How do you
53:16act? I think your question was, "How do
53:17you act if you are attached to the
53:19goal?" You accept that on this planet
53:23you cannot achieve it. It is not within
53:26your power to achieve.
53:29You know, there's something that I I
53:30think is really scary about the society
53:33we live in.
53:34We've started taking things lying down.
53:37So, like like nowadays in society, this
53:39is going to sound kind of weird, but
53:40like
53:42when when we're on the brink of failure,
53:44we don't fight with defiance.
53:48Right? We're like, "Okay, if I'm going
53:49to lose, then I'm just going to give
53:50up." Mhm. We've stopped fighting futile
53:52battles.
53:54And that's so devastating. What do you
53:56mean by this? Like
53:58if you're going to get screwed, go down
54:00fighting. Go all the way.
54:01>> Go all the way. Even if you Even if
54:03like, you know, I I got my first 40
54:05rejections to medical school, my next 40
54:07rejections to medical school, and my
54:09uncle pulled me aside. He's like, "Bro,
54:10this is not working out. Like go get a
54:11PhD. Like
54:13Go to plan B, right? Like come on, man.
54:15Like your GPA is not changing. What are
54:17you expecting? You're an idiot. You're
54:18being stubborn." My uncle's a great guy.
54:20He loves me very much. And it's good
54:22advice. Yeah. Right?
54:24>> repeating insanity over and over and
54:26over again.
54:26>> Absolutely.
54:28And so, like this is where like we need
54:30to be defiant in the face of the world.
54:32Like we need to keep We need to be doing
54:34stupid action.
54:36>> Yes.
54:37You know, like don't That's what it is.
54:38To When you say don't give up, what does
54:40that mean? That Don't giving up Not
54:42giving up means being an idiot.
54:45Let go of the possibility of it ever
54:47happening. You know, I was I was reading
54:48about like Stranger Things and how many
54:51times Stranger Things got rejected.
54:53>> Yeah, yeah. You know, another good
54:55example of this is Harry Potter. Like
54:56got rejected over and over and over
54:58again.
54:59>> Games also is like 10 years it took for
55:01it to sell.
55:02>> Absolutely, right?
55:03So, so we have to be really careful
55:05about goals because if we attach
55:07ourselves to the goal and we get
55:08negative feedback, we are going to give
55:09up.
55:11So, focus on the action.
55:13Right? And this is what's really
55:14important.
55:15But how do you know when to give up?
55:17Like
55:18sure those things they had a belief that
55:20these things should be in the world.
55:22These movies, these books, these things
55:24should be in the world. In my medical
55:25school, I should that should be
55:27happening.
55:28But if it goes 20 years and it doesn't
55:29happen, do you keep fighting until you
55:31burn everything down?
55:33>> Here's Here's It's so tricky, but
55:35beautiful question.
55:36Give up with tranquility.
55:39So, when you are at peace and you want
55:42to let something go, that's when you
55:43give up.
55:44>> When you feel like I've given everything
55:45I can or I'm I'm okay with it not coming
55:47to the world. Like, okay.
55:48>> I I If you still feel like there's
55:50something inside of you.
55:51>> so like this is a lesson I learned when
55:52[snorts]
55:53someone has So, I I had a a patient who
55:56was 8 years old had stage four cancer,
55:59was in the pediatric ICU.
56:01Um I was a I was a medical student. I
56:02wasn't even a doctor then.
56:04And then, you know, how do you know when
56:06to pull the plug? Like that's where I
56:08learned that lesson.
56:10Like you can you can do everything, but
56:11you should be at peace. So, if you feel
56:14if you feel like giving up is a failure,
56:16if you feel like giving up is is giving
56:18into your fear, your internal emotional
56:21state will tell you what is right and
56:23what is wrong.
56:25So, if you're giving into fear, don't do
56:27it.
56:28>> Right.
56:30You know, even if you're overly
56:31ambitious, you want to attain a state of
56:34tranquility. That's That's where you
56:36should operate from. This is really
56:37important. I I want to Goal is out
56:39there. It's in the future. Action is
56:41now.
56:43Emotion, you have to be careful because
56:45we're often times running away The
56:47emotion tries to get you away from the
56:48here and now. Right? I want to avoid the
56:50anxiety. I'm anxious. How do I not be
56:52anxious?
56:53So, instead what you should do is be be
56:54as tranquil as possible. Go for a walk.
56:57Have a nice cup of tea.
56:59You know, sit with your thoughts. Stay
57:01off of all devices for 24 hours and take
57:04a good, long, hard look at your goals
57:07and ask yourself
57:09is it time to give up or not?
57:11The answer will come from in here.
57:13Don't make a pro-con list. Don't do
57:16anything like just ask yourself. So, I I
57:18went to a Swami, which is like a monk.
57:20Mhm.
57:21And after I failed for 2 years to get
57:24into med school, and I was like, "Hey, I
57:25don't know if I should give up or not.
57:28What do you think I should do?"
57:29And the Swami turns to me. He's like,
57:30"You know, 2 years is not such a long
57:32time
57:33in life.
57:34Give it another year."
57:36He just kind of shrugged, right? So
57:37casual. Just so simple.
57:38>> Yeah. I was like, "Okay, fine.
57:41I'm I'm not getting I'm going to give it
57:42one more year." That's what I decided.
57:44Luckily, I I got into one medical
57:45school.
57:48So, tranquil mind.
57:50Tranquil.
57:51And then decide. Then you'll know
57:53whether it's enough. It's not give up.
57:56Even that phrasing is wrong. It implies
57:58failure.
57:58>> It's transition. It's Yeah. Uh no, no,
58:01but I think it's the right word in the
58:02sense that that's what I that's the way
58:03everyone thinks. Instead, ask yourself,
58:05"Has this been enough?"
58:07I work with patients who are trying to
58:09make it work in couples therapy.
58:11And And what we get to what I get to
58:13like emotionally is
58:15is this enough? Have we tried enough?
58:18Have we tried treatment enough? Is this
58:19enough?
58:21And if the answer to that question is
58:22yes, then let it go. Mhm. There's a
58:24question I wanted to ask you about um
58:27capable versus believing.
58:30You know, and maybe this ties to goal
58:31setting. One point you said
58:33I think you said there's there's a
58:35difference between we're being capable
58:37of achieving something or living into
58:40something versus believing you can
58:41achieve it.
58:43What is that difference of capable
58:45versus believe?
58:47And are there times when you believe you
58:49can do something, but you're not
58:50capable?
58:52What is that do to someone? I think
58:54belief and capability are two entirely
58:55different things. Belief is your
58:57estimation of your ability. Capability
59:00is your ability.
59:01>> Yeah. So, the gap between capability and
59:03There's a gap between what
59:05your estimation of what you can do and
59:07what you're capable of. But when someone
59:09has the capabilities, but not the belief
59:12then what happens?
59:14They doubt themselves constantly.
59:15They're insecure. They're afraid, but
59:17they have the skill, the talent, or the
59:19ability to do the thing if they worked
59:21at it. Yeah, so I I think I mean, this
59:23is something we see all the time. Most
59:25human beings on the planet are far more
59:26capable than they believe.
59:28>> Yes. Right? So, our belief, let's
59:30understand where this comes from. Belief
59:32comes from your own estimation.
59:35It comes from your data. It comes from
59:37your cognitive biases, your perception,
59:39your emotions.
59:41You know, your fear
59:44will try to protect you by telling you
59:46that you can't do it.
59:48It'll try to trick you into believing
59:50that you are incapable.
59:51>> Uh-huh.
59:51I don't put much stock in belief.
59:54Personally.
59:54>> You know.
59:54>> Personally. For yourself. Just in
59:56general.
59:57For my patients, I try to help them not
59:59put much stock in belief. Because let's
1:00:01understand what belief is.
1:00:03Belief is the absence of knowledge.
1:00:06By definition. Mhm. I believe my keys
1:00:08are in my pocket.
1:00:10I don't know that. Mhm. So, belief is
1:00:13literally a mental hypothetical
1:00:15construct. I believe it's possible.
1:00:17>> I believe in God. Mhm. That's very
1:00:20different from I know God. Mhm. I've
1:00:22seen God. I've felt God.
1:00:24Right? So, we'll use this and I'm not
1:00:25trying to be like anti-faith or anything
1:00:27like that, but
1:00:28it's kind of interesting, right? So,
1:00:30because when when I sit with people who
1:00:31who do have intense faith,
1:00:34sometimes there's belief and there can
1:00:35be there's value to belief, too. But in
1:00:37general,
1:00:38I think step away from your own beliefs.
1:00:40>> Mhm. In general, what you should be
1:00:42doing is collecting data, not
1:00:45hypothesizing. Belief is in your head.
1:00:50So, should we not have belief in
1:00:52ourselves that we are capable of
1:00:55accomplishing goals or dreams?
1:00:57>> so so I I I think you should learn.
1:01:01Right? And I I I I know this is like
1:01:02running contrary to some of the language
1:01:04that you use. I I don't think we're I
1:01:05think we end up in the same place.
1:01:07>> Yeah, yeah. But I I I I think just just
1:01:09learn. Try.
1:01:11Okay, I you don't believe in yourself.
1:01:13So, what? You do believe in yourself.
1:01:14So, what? Try. Mhm. Act either way. Act.
1:01:18Exactly.
1:01:19>> yeah. Be independent of all of this
1:01:21stuff.
1:01:21>> Belief. Yeah, yeah. Because what is it
1:01:23that correlates with accomplishment?
1:01:26What is it correlates that correlates
1:01:29with success? It's action. So, we use
1:01:32belief, right? So, this is why it's
1:01:34important to
1:01:35>> action. Exactly.
1:01:37Right? So, belief helps us take action
1:01:39sometimes. But this is where it's like
1:01:41we can do whatever kind of mental
1:01:42gymnastics you want to end up with
1:01:44action.
1:01:45>> Take action either way, whether you
1:01:46believe it or not.
1:01:47>> Whether you believe it, whether you have
1:01:48goal, whatever, right? Let Let's get to
1:01:50the root of action. And all of
1:01:52psychiatry and psychology and stuff is
1:01:55all these ways of helping people act.
1:01:58Karma. Karma.
1:02:00The actions that you take.
1:02:02Here's something really interesting.
1:02:04What a lot of people don't realize about
1:02:05karma.
1:02:07Karma 99% of karma is not visible.
1:02:1299% of karma happens in here. When you
1:02:15have a thought,
1:02:16how do you respond to that thought? That
1:02:18is technically an action.
1:02:21Oh my God. So, this morning, I was
1:02:24tired. I've been working here for 9
1:02:25days.
1:02:26And I didn't want to go to the gym.
1:02:28So, I didn't go to the gym. And then
1:02:30it's a little bit cold outside, but I
1:02:31was like, you know what? I I normally
1:02:33swim about 20 laps. And so, it's like I
1:02:35don't feel like swimming 20 laps, but
1:02:37I'm going to swim five. I felt like
1:02:38swimming zero. Yeah. I was like, I'm
1:02:40just going to get in the water. I'm
1:02:41going to swim swim five laps and then
1:02:42I'm done. I got into the water. It was
1:02:44awful.
1:02:45You're like, I want to get out.
1:02:46>> I want to get out. I felt really tired.
1:02:48I'm kind of out of shape and like
1:02:49haven't had a great schedule. But like
1:02:51the way that we respond to ourselves,
1:02:54that's what forms our destiny.
1:02:56>> Mhm. Everyone thinks karma is our
1:02:58actions out here. It's not the most
1:03:00Think about how many actions do you take
1:03:02in your head every single day?
1:03:04Thousands.
1:03:05How do you respond? Oh, I want to eat
1:03:06this. Okay, I'm going to eat it. Oh, I
1:03:09want to pull out my phone. I'm going to
1:03:10pull out my phone. That mental action,
1:03:13okay, let me pull out my phone, costs
1:03:15you 60 minutes of your day. Mhm.
1:03:18A 30-second distraction costs you an
1:03:21hour.
1:03:22The way that we respond to the impulses
1:03:25in our mind, this is the most important
1:03:28action. I believe I can't do it. Are you
1:03:31going to listen to that belief? This is
1:03:33why I like, oh, believe in yourself, not
1:03:34believe. That's not the question.
1:03:35Question is, when you believe something,
1:03:37how do you respond to your beliefs?
1:03:39>> Yeah.
1:03:40Do I have a goal? Do I not have a goal?
1:03:42Not the important question.
1:03:45When you have a setback in your goal,
1:03:47how do you respond to that?
1:03:49The problem is that most human beings on
1:03:51the planet react. They don't respond.
1:03:55Automatic.
1:03:56There isn't awareness of what's going
1:03:58on. There isn't intention.
1:04:01And pay attention to your mind. You'll
1:04:03be stunned. There's a beautiful exercise
1:04:05that I offer people.
1:04:08Pay attention to how many thoughts you
1:04:10have that you've had before. Mhm.
1:04:13So, the crazy thing that a lot of people
1:04:14don't realize is most of the thinking is
1:04:16habits.
1:04:18It's not even logical. It's not real.
1:04:20>> Automatic.
1:04:21>> It's just automatic.
1:04:21>> repeat. It's on repeat. I'm a loser.
1:04:24This won't work.
1:04:26I can do it.
1:04:28And it's not that these thoughts are
1:04:30good or bad.
1:04:31>> Yeah.
1:04:31Right? And I And I I appreciate the
1:04:33perspectives It's not good or bad, right
1:04:35or wrong. It's what's Is it serving you
1:04:37in an empowering way? Is it helping you
1:04:39to feel more harmony or not? I mean, I
1:04:41think if people want to be rich and
1:04:43successful, they should ask those
1:04:45questions.
1:04:46You are better at that, Lewis, than I
1:04:48am. Mhm.
1:04:51What I'm about is not even the goal of
1:04:54all of that stuff. Is it empowering or
1:04:56not empowering? I'm
1:04:57I'm I mean, I step away from that. Just
1:04:59understand. Mhm.
1:05:02So, in in Sanskrit, you know, they have
1:05:03this saying that avidya is the source of
1:05:06dukkha.
1:05:07Ignorance is the source of suffering.
1:05:10And this is something as a psychiatrist
1:05:12I think is very true. Most of our
1:05:14suffering comes from not knowing what
1:05:16what is going on. Why is this happening
1:05:18to me?
1:05:18>> aware. Not being aware. Yeah.
1:05:21So much of our suffering in life comes
1:05:23from our reactions and our automatic
1:05:25patterns. I see this all the time.
1:05:28So,
1:05:29can I use profanity? Sure. Okay. So, one
1:05:31of my clients came to me and asked me,
1:05:34"Dr. K, I don't know why I only attract
1:05:37boys." Mhm.
1:05:40And
1:05:41we talked about it for a little bit and
1:05:42we realized, you attract everybody.
1:05:45You choose.
1:05:47>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of great people
1:05:49come up to you and but you're not
1:05:50attracted to them.
1:05:51>> And this is what's so cool. Like people
1:05:53don't realize when they're suffering in
1:05:55life and life feels hard. I mean, I've
1:05:57worked with people who have had
1:05:58poly-substance addictions from the age
1:06:00of nine.
1:06:01>> Oh.
1:06:03And then you you you live this way for
1:06:0619 years and you think there's no way
1:06:09you can get better. You're at the age of
1:06:1028. You've been struggling with
1:06:12substances for 19 years. Relatively
1:06:14young, but your whole experience has
1:06:16been struggling with this. And you think
1:06:18it's impossible. But you just don't
1:06:20understand yourself. You don't
1:06:21understand how you are responding to
1:06:23your impulses.
1:06:24You don't understand why you're using
1:06:26these substances. That you're trying to
1:06:27run away from something is that is
1:06:29inside you. And you can try to control
1:06:30your behaviors as much as you want.
1:06:33But as long as that black flame, that
1:06:35like tar is inside you,
1:06:38no way that you're going to control your
1:06:39behavior.
1:06:40So, understand yourself first. I I It's
1:06:43not for me to say you should do this or
1:06:46don't do this or I can teach you how.
1:06:49I can't tell you what direction. That's
1:06:51for you to figure out. You decide for
1:06:52yourself. Why are you so lazy? You all
1:06:54want all the answers from me.
1:06:56Go and explore yourself.
1:06:58>> Mhm.
1:07:00Pay attention to your mental actions.
1:07:03Pay attention to the way that you
1:07:04respond to the the things around you.
1:07:07I think it was Carl Jung who said,
1:07:10I forget exactly what the quote is, but
1:07:11something about until we make our
1:07:13unconscious conscious,
1:07:17we will look at our lives and we'll
1:07:20think it's destiny even when it's in our
1:07:22control. Mhm. I'm butchering the quote,
1:07:24but
1:07:25you know, it's it's crazy how much of
1:07:27our our life we actually control.
1:07:30But we just have no awareness of it.
1:07:33How much of our life do we control?
1:07:35All of the important parts.
1:07:37How much of our thoughts do we control?
1:07:41None.
1:07:42We don't control our thoughts?
1:07:43>> No, the thought The mind generates
1:07:45thoughts.
1:07:46How much do we control our mind?
1:07:48None.
1:07:50So, do we have any control over our
1:07:52thinking or our mind? We have control
1:07:55over the way that we respond to our
1:07:57mind.
1:07:58>> That's all we control. All The only
1:08:00>> Do we generate a thought or is a thought
1:08:02generated automatically?
1:08:05What are you thinking?
1:08:07I'm thinking you're touching my leg.
1:08:09Yeah.
1:08:09>> Did you have control over that? The
1:08:11generation of that thought?
1:08:12>> of you touching me? The generation of
1:08:14the thought.
1:08:14>> thinking Did Did you Can you control
1:08:17that that that happened?
1:08:19I can I can think a different thought
1:08:21when it happens. I can shift the
1:08:23thinking.
1:08:25I can know that's happening and also
1:08:26think about something else. Right. So,
1:08:29But it's All of how you can control So,
1:08:30the thought the mind I mean, this is the
1:08:32problem is we can't Everyone thinks we
1:08:33can control the mind. And they try.
1:08:36Yeah. It's like trying to swim up a
1:08:37waterfall. So, when I do psychotherapy
1:08:39with a patient, let's say I've got a
1:08:40patient who's got suicidal ideation. So,
1:08:42they want to kill themselves every
1:08:43single day.
1:08:44So, they come in and I can't control
1:08:46their thoughts.
1:08:47They can't control their thoughts. They
1:08:48don't want to be suicidal, but they The
1:08:50thought comes. Thought comes. Thought
1:08:52comes. Okay?
1:08:53So, then
1:08:54they don't control their thoughts, but
1:08:56as we do work, we change the thoughts
1:08:59that are automatically generated in
1:09:01their mind.
1:09:02You do. Yes. By responding to the
1:09:04thought differently when it comes in.
1:09:06>> I I talk to them in certain ways. I say
1:09:08certain things to them. And then as I
1:09:11say something, this is why a good
1:09:13psychiatrist is really important, right?
1:09:15So, the whole point of a good
1:09:16psychiatrist is they can change your
1:09:18mind.
1:09:19You come in you're suicidal. I engage in
1:09:22an evidence-based practice.
1:09:25And And I I took this principle and
1:09:27turned it into a coaching program
1:09:28because I thought, "Hey, we're doing all
1:09:29this stuff for people who are suicidal.
1:09:31Why aren't we doing all this stuff for
1:09:33people who procrastinate? Who are stuck?
1:09:35Who want to write fiction? We can take
1:09:37these evidence-based techniques because
1:09:39someone comes into my office and there
1:09:40are thousands of studies. That's why
1:09:42psychiatry is an evidence-based
1:09:43practice.
1:09:45They're coming into my thought. There's
1:09:46certain things that I can say, certain
1:09:48things that I can do
1:09:49that will alter their thinking.
1:09:52Absolutely.
1:09:54Right? So, you'll learn this soon
1:09:55enough, but I mean you're married, but
1:09:57so you know your your your wife has
1:09:59certain thoughts in her head. She's
1:10:01upset.
1:10:03And you can do things to alter the
1:10:06pattern of her thinking, right? You can
1:10:08say, "Oh, tell me what's wrong. I love
1:10:10you."
1:10:12Yeah.
1:10:13Or you can tell her how she can fix all
1:10:15of her problems.
1:10:16>> [laughter]
1:10:16>> Right? And so here here's the really
1:10:18wild thing. We as human beings can
1:10:20affect the human beings around us. We
1:10:21can affect their thinking. Which means
1:10:23by definition, her thinking is being
1:10:25shaped by who? Me. Which means that from
1:10:28her mind, her thoughts are being
1:10:30generated by the people around her. You
1:10:32actually don't control your She doesn't
1:10:34control her thoughts. You control her
1:10:36thoughts, which is wild. And she
1:10:38controls my thoughts.
1:10:38>> Exactly.
1:10:40So, you're influences them. Influences
1:10:42them. Yeah. And there are other
1:10:44influences, right? So, let's be clear.
1:10:47First thing is that thoughts are
1:10:49generated for you. That's why
1:10:50advertising is a thing.
1:10:53Cuz they figured out if I can generate
1:10:54this thought in your head over over,
1:10:57then you'll take action.
1:10:59So, everyone is doing thought control.
1:11:01And this idea that oh, I can control my
1:11:03thoughts. Bro, you cannot.
1:11:05So, as a Harvard-trained psychiatrist
1:11:07then,
1:11:08knowing that, what do you do to have
1:11:11better
1:11:13I don't want to say control, but better
1:11:15awareness or a handle around the
1:11:16thoughts in your own mind Okay. that
1:11:19either support you or don't support you
1:11:22in your life.
1:11:22>> Yeah. So, so what we do control is the
1:11:25way we respond to our thoughts, the way
1:11:27we're aware of our thoughts.
1:11:30So, I for example might either Victor
1:11:33Frankl said, you know, it's it's about
1:11:35stimulus and the the the space between
1:11:37the stimulus and response.
1:11:38>> Absolutely, right? So, so this is what a
1:11:40lot of people So, I'll give you a really
1:11:41interesting example of this. It's a bit
1:11:44tangential, but
1:11:45So, here's the key thing with thoughts.
1:11:48The key thing that we want to do
1:11:50is have distance from them, which is
1:11:52beautiful what you said. So, I'll give
1:11:53you a good example of this. If we look
1:11:55at mental illness and we rank the
1:11:58severity of mental illness, what we find
1:12:01is the worst mental illness has no space
1:12:05between stimulus and response. So, when
1:12:07someone has psychosis or is delusional,
1:12:11I've had patients who will say, "There
1:12:13is an electronic device in my brain that
1:12:16is shaping my thoughts."
1:12:19This sentence that they say is a thought
1:12:22in their head, but there is no space
1:12:24between this is a thought and this is
1:12:26reality.
1:12:27>> separate them observing themselves
1:12:30>> thinking or doing.
1:12:31>> Exactly, right? So, the thought is real.
1:12:34It's delusional. It's delusional. And
1:12:36the nature of delusion is when you
1:12:38believe your thoughts are real. Yes.
1:12:39>> Literally. And I'm going to show you
1:12:40this beautiful scale. So, there's
1:12:42psychosis, which is the worst. Then
1:12:44there is things like let's say you have
1:12:45a mood disorder, where I think I'm a
1:12:47loser. I'm pathetic. I'm all this My
1:12:49family would be better off without
1:12:50>> or a level of depression or
1:12:52>> Level of depression, right? So, so so as
1:12:54people become really depressed, they
1:12:57believe their thoughts. There's no space
1:12:59between thoughts and anything else. Then
1:13:01as they start to get a little bit
1:13:02better, okay, like yeah, I I feel this
1:13:05way and there are times that I think my
1:13:06family would be better without me,
1:13:08but you know, I'm beginning to see okay,
1:13:10maybe that's not the case. Then you're
1:13:12conflicted. Now, there's a little bit of
1:13:13space between those two things.
1:13:15Another good example of this is when you
1:13:17have a panic attack.
1:13:19You don't think you're
1:13:21You are dying. Then, you know, less
1:13:23severe than panic disorder is like a
1:13:26generalized anxiety disorder.
1:13:28Right? It's not one-to-one. You can have
1:13:29bad generalized anxiety disorder, but
1:13:31when when your anxiety is less bad than
1:13:33you're okay, like I'm anxious about
1:13:34this, but it may not I think this is
1:13:36going to happen. Or if I have OCD, my
1:13:38anxiety is something I believe. Unless I
1:13:40flick off the light switch seven times,
1:13:42my house is going to burn down. I
1:13:43believe that. There's no space between
1:13:45thought and and belief. It's one in the
1:13:48same.
1:13:49And then I get anxious, right? Oh, I
1:13:51think this could happen, but I don't I'm
1:13:53I acknowledge maybe it won't happen.
1:13:56And then we get to the normal state of
1:13:57mind, which is like, okay, I have
1:13:58thoughts. I believe most of them. I
1:14:00don't believe them.
1:14:02And then we get to you,
1:14:04which is you're very good at training
1:14:05yourself to disbelieve particular
1:14:07thoughts.
1:14:08That's what all the all these questions
1:14:10are. How do you empower yourself?
1:14:11Because you have disempowering thoughts
1:14:12and you choose not to believe them.
1:14:15Or not let them stop me from taking
1:14:16actions in my life that I think are
1:14:18better actions than worse actions.
1:14:20Exactly. So, but that's the key thing
1:14:21there is that the thought comes up, "Oh,
1:14:24hey,
1:14:25Lewis, can I tell you something, bro?
1:14:27You're 40 42, right? You're going to be
1:14:3044, 45 when you compete in the Olympics.
1:14:34Good luck. How many I mean, what do you
1:14:36think about that? Do you think that's
1:14:37going to work out? Does your mind ever
1:14:39tell you, "Hey, bro, this is like,
1:14:41you know, you're competing against
1:14:4220-year-olds?"
1:14:43Yeah, if you're asking me personally, I
1:14:45think of man, what about this story that
1:14:47I will get to share So, see the way that
1:14:50>> when this works out or if this works
1:14:52out.
1:14:52>> so either way, if it doesn't work out,
1:14:55the story of pursuing something that you
1:14:57care about.
1:14:58>> So, that's beautiful. So, you're doing
1:14:59some cool mental jujitsu. You're like a
1:15:02matador. You didn't even address my
1:15:04question. So, here's the scary thing. If
1:15:06you go back and you watch this and you
1:15:08look at your face, that fear is in you.
1:15:10I saw it in your face.
1:15:11>> Sure. Sure. There's a level of like I
1:15:13think it's not worth going for unless
1:15:15there's something
1:15:17that's That's all of the way that you
1:15:19respond
1:15:20>> why would I go for it? The way you
1:15:21respond to your thoughts, the way you
1:15:23disbelieve your thoughts. You know it's
1:15:25hard. I know it's hard. I can say it to
1:15:27you. It hurts to hear it and you say,
1:15:29Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. The way you
1:15:31respond to your thoughts, disbelieving
1:15:33your thoughts, moving away from your
1:15:35thoughts.
1:15:37So, this is the spectrum of thinking.
1:15:39Yeah, it's almost like being a coach.
1:15:41It's like seeing yourself as a coach
1:15:43rather than being the critic Very good.
1:15:46>> with the thought, right? It's like it's
1:15:47rather like I am this thought. There's
1:15:49no separation of the thought. It's like,
1:15:51no, this is me. If I'm thinking it, it's
1:15:53my identity. That's why I was some of
1:15:55the start with identity of like, if
1:15:56that's who you're identifying as and
1:15:59holding onto it rather than saying, "All
1:16:01right, it's a thought coming in. Let me
1:16:02distance myself and kind of observe it.
1:16:06And do I want to be the critic that
1:16:08continues to reinforce that thought or
1:16:11I can hold it there and and still take
1:16:14actions and coach myself through it. And
1:16:16that's kind of the process. Beautiful,
1:16:18right? So, what what if you tunnel down
1:16:20into the precision of what you're doing,
1:16:21[clears throat] you are changing the way
1:16:23that you respond to your thoughts. Now,
1:16:25here's the really cool and tricky thing.
1:16:27As you change the way that you respond
1:16:29to your thoughts, your thoughts will
1:16:31change.
1:16:32>> Yes. But you did not create them. No.
1:16:34Oh, really? So, we don't create our
1:16:36thoughts.
1:16:36>> No. All we do is So, think about your
1:16:38your mind like a garden.
1:16:41We weed.
1:16:43Right? So, we remove we we
1:16:45don't react to that thought. We don't
1:16:46give in to that thought and over time it
1:16:49will wither.
1:16:51And then as certain thoughts you because
1:16:53I don't know if this makes sense. The
1:16:55first moment you started believing in
1:16:57yourself was not something you had to
1:16:59choose. What matters is when you had
1:17:01that thought of self-belief, how did you
1:17:04respond to it? You protected it. You got
1:17:07around it. You're like, "Grow, baby,
1:17:08grow."
1:17:09Right? You cultivate when you talk about
1:17:11an empowering mindset, what is the
1:17:13mechanism of an empowering mindset? It
1:17:15is responding to certain thoughts in a
1:17:17particular way, but you still don't
1:17:18control them. So, over time
1:17:21>> Cuz there could be a negative thought
1:17:22comes in. There could be something else,
1:17:23but it's what you nurture. Exactly. So,
1:17:26so this is what's really interesting.
1:17:27You know, I had a patient who was afraid
1:17:30that her fiance was cheating on him.
1:17:33I mean, sorry, on on her. And so she was
1:17:35like,
1:17:36"I want to check your text messages."
1:17:38And so she thought to herself, "If I
1:17:40check his text messages, then I'll know
1:17:43that I can trust him."
1:17:45But as she feels the anxiety, she checks
1:17:47his text
1:17:49and she feels reassured. But the next
1:17:51day, when she feels anxious, Let me
1:17:53check again.
1:17:54>> Let me check again. Cuz she is her brain
1:17:57is learning that the the antidote to
1:17:59anxiety is to check it.
1:18:01This is really important to understand.
1:18:02Whatever we feed in the mind grows. We
1:18:05don't control it, but we choose what we
1:18:08feed and we choose what we don't we
1:18:09feed. We choose We get to control
1:18:12action.
1:18:13We get to control the way we respond.
1:18:16But we don't even get to control what
1:18:17thought comes next.
1:18:20Fingers crossed.
1:18:21>> Now, you you hope that when you're
1:18:22nurturing and watering a thought, that
1:18:25thought will continue to expand and
1:18:27develop and grow more frequently and
1:18:29will pop up in your mind.
1:18:30>> That's what we get to control, right?
1:18:32So, that there's tons of neuroscience
1:18:34evidence for that the neurons that fire
1:18:36together wire together. We have habitual
1:18:38patterns of thinking, right? So, when we
1:18:39have and and then we can wire our brain
1:18:42to generate thoughts. And literally the
1:18:44the goal of my job is to
1:18:46help someone wire their brain so that
1:18:49their brain generates the right
1:18:50thoughts. But I want to be precise here.
1:18:52That doesn't mean you get to control
1:18:53what you think. You can simply plant
1:18:56your garden in a certain way.
1:18:59That's interesting. So, it's almost
1:19:00like,
1:19:01you know, tell me if I'm wrong here, but
1:19:03what I'm hearing you say is your mind is
1:19:05a blank canvas or it's a a desert.
1:19:09And you can start to respond to the
1:19:12thoughts that come to you and hopefully
1:19:14build a rainforest around you or a
1:19:16garden or some type of
1:19:19scenic thing
1:19:20>> Thing supports your your your mind in a
1:19:22more beautiful way. Uh spot on with the
1:19:24general, but here's the key difference I
1:19:27would say. Your mind is an untended
1:19:28garden. It's not a desert. It's not
1:19:30blank. Cuz if you think about it, your
1:19:32whole life you've been giving into
1:19:34certain impulses. You've allowed weeds
1:19:35to grow out of control.
1:19:37>> Well, say you're a blank canvas when you
1:19:38were born then, maybe. I don't know.
1:19:39>> Yeah, you know yeah. But at your year at
1:19:41the point of watching this, if you're in
1:19:42your 20s, 30s, or 40s, or 50s, your mind
1:19:45is an untended garden. Absolutely,
1:19:47right?
1:19:48>> might be some beautiful things, and
1:19:49there might be a bunch of rocks that you
1:19:50don't want. It's figuring out how to
1:19:52tend to the beautiful things to create
1:19:55more harmony and peace inside of you.
1:19:57Yeah. And things that will support your
1:19:59life rather than hold you down. And the
1:20:01beautiful thing is that when you start
1:20:03doing this, you cultivate your mind,
1:20:06life becomes easy. Yes.
1:20:08Because now
1:20:09>> hard, it's easy. Absolutely.
1:20:12So,
1:20:13we struggle with motivation, but think
1:20:15about it. That's because your mind has
1:20:16this impulse over here, and you're
1:20:17trying to wrench it over here.
1:20:20Right? Whereas once you start to do the
1:20:22right kind of reinforcing stuff
1:20:26once you start reinforcing the right
1:20:27behaviors, once you start once you stop
1:20:30giving in to certain thoughts
1:20:32Doesn't mean you won't have them. Huh?
1:20:34Doesn't mean you won't have these
1:20:35thoughts.
1:20:35>> mean it is so You don't respond to them.
1:20:37You don't give in to them, yeah.
1:20:38>> So so for example, my ego is like really
1:20:40like it's really messed up because for
1:20:43years I got bullied, for years I was you
1:20:46know, I struggled, and then I I got into
1:20:48Harvard, and then I had an ego about
1:20:50that for a while, and it's still there.
1:20:52So, what I do is I I laugh at my ego.
1:20:54Mhm. I'm like, there's that ego again.
1:20:57Sometimes I'll have fantasies about
1:20:58>> psychiatrist, yeah yeah yeah.
1:20:59>> Yeah, so so you know, on on the car ride
1:21:01over here, I was thinking about how to
1:21:03make this podcast great. That was one of
1:21:04the questions you asked me, how do we
1:21:05make this great? I was like, there's my
1:21:07ego again. There's me trying to be
1:21:08great.
1:21:10Who am I to be great?
1:21:12Right? I'm
1:21:15Dude, I'm I'm a noob.
1:21:17I'm a failure. I'm a loser, and I'm
1:21:19great. So, I'm going to show up, and I'm
1:21:20going to do the best that I can. Yeah.
1:21:22But it is not for me to be great. It is
1:21:24not for me to decide what is great and
1:21:26what is not great.
1:21:28So, my ego's still there after all of
1:21:30these years. It's still there. My wife
1:21:31is hilarious about it. Cuz she mocks me
1:21:33so much.
1:21:34>> Sure.
1:21:35>> [laughter]
1:21:35>> Right? So, cuz sometimes I'll say
1:21:36something really profound in
1:21:38conversation, because sometimes I say
1:21:39things that are really profound. She's
1:21:40like, oh Wow, yeah. Let's equate that.
1:21:42And I think it's a beautiful way to keep
1:21:44your ego in check.
1:21:45>> Sure, of course. Right? So, the way that
1:21:47I respond So, now my ego is not
1:21:49something to be conquered. It's like,
1:21:50I'm cursed with it, and I I've accepted
1:21:53that after so many years of I've been
1:21:55meditating for 21 years.
1:21:58And my ego is still there. It's still
1:22:00there in the background. It still sneaks
1:22:01up.
1:22:02It still makes comparisons.
1:22:05There's no I'm cursed.
1:22:07Ah, so what? Yeah.
1:22:09Am I going to let it Am I going to try
1:22:11really hard to get rid of it? No. Yeah.
1:22:13Yeah.
1:22:14It's there forever. So be it. I don't
1:22:15need to change.
1:22:17I don't need to be egoless. I'm a new
1:22:19Like, who am I to be egoless? Am I some
1:22:21great person who should be egoless? No,
1:22:22like I'm some pathetic POS who struggles
1:22:25sometimes and does a good job, and I do
1:22:27right by people. I hold both of those
1:22:29things.
1:22:29>> yeah.
1:22:31If we went back to the you said there
1:22:32was like a scale of mental disorders or
1:22:35that you called it, or mental diseases
1:22:36or disorders or I don't know, diagnosis.
1:22:39>> And psychosis is I guess like the
1:22:42highest on the scale of
1:22:43severity, and then maybe mood swings or
1:22:46some type of anxiety, you know, would be
1:22:48>> like panic disorders, you know, severe
1:22:50depression, then like generalized like
1:22:52anxiety, then there's like the normal
1:22:54level of anxiety, then there's like the
1:22:56positive dimensions. Ah. Right? Of of
1:22:59understanding, and the highest dimension
1:23:01is understanding that you are not your
1:23:03mind.
1:23:04That the mind is just an object. It is
1:23:06your mind. We even say it.
1:23:09My mind, my hand.
1:23:11It is an object of its own that does
1:23:13whatever it wants to do. Just like your
1:23:15body. It's like you don't get to control
1:23:16whether you have diarrhea today. Like
1:23:18your stomach is messed up today. Your
1:23:19mind is messed up today.
1:23:21But just like your stomach, you can take
1:23:23care of your mind. Mhm.
1:23:26And so, what would you call this? A
1:23:27scale of You're just making it up. A
1:23:29scale severity around mental
1:23:31>> it's it's what what technically is is
1:23:33the scale of attachment to your
1:23:35thoughts.
1:23:36>> Okay.
1:23:37I love this because if cuz anyone could
1:23:40relate to somewhere on this scale.
1:23:42Hopefully not many people relate to the
1:23:44psychosis, but anyone watching or
1:23:46listening can relate to yeah, I've had
1:23:48depressed thoughts or anxiety or stress
1:23:50or overwhelm or whatever it might be.
1:23:53Or a lack feeling of laziness or lack of
1:23:55motivation, or I've
1:23:57ADHD or whatever it is.
1:24:00How does someone go from having a tended
1:24:03mind, a beautiful garden or a tended
1:24:05garden in their mind
1:24:07to psychosis or to suicidal thinking
1:24:11over and over again?
1:24:13And is there a way for someone to go
1:24:15back from psychosis or suicidal thinking
1:24:18to a beautiful garden in their mind?
1:24:20>> Absolutely. What is that process of how
1:24:22they got from mood swings to
1:24:25suicide?
1:24:27And how can someone go back? What is
1:24:29that process?
1:24:30>> Okay, we're going to teach it to you
1:24:31right now. It's take about 30 seconds.
1:24:33Okay?
1:24:34So, I want you to close your eyes,
1:24:36Louis.
1:24:37And I want you to observe your breath.
1:24:42I I didn't say breathe. I didn't say
1:24:44change your breath. I didn't say take a
1:24:45deep breath. I said just observe it.
1:24:48You're doing that deep breathing thing
1:24:49again. You're breathing slow. Just
1:24:50observe it. Don't change it.
1:24:52Can you breathe the way that you were
1:24:54when we were talking?
1:24:58Now you're artificially increasing the
1:24:59pace.
1:25:01Right?
1:25:02>> [snorts]
1:25:02>> Little bit, yeah. So, here's the wild
1:25:05thing.
1:25:06The moment you are aware of something,
1:25:09you gain control.
1:25:11Literally, the part of your brain
1:25:14that monitors conflict within you
1:25:17is the part of your brain that is
1:25:18willpower. And I was going against what
1:25:20you were trying to have me to do. I was
1:25:21like, no, I'm going to do what feels
1:25:22good to me. But even then, you're
1:25:24controlling it.
1:25:25>> Yeah yeah. Uh. So so if you pay
1:25:27attention, it is impossible for you to
1:25:30observe your breath and continue to
1:25:32breathe naturally. Impossible.
1:25:34Try it.
1:25:36You'll notice that the moment that you
1:25:37pay attention to it, it starts to alter.
1:25:40Right? So, in physics, this is like
1:25:42>> cuz now I'm paying attention to it as
1:25:43opposed to just being. Right. And when
1:25:46you pay attention, you'll start to
1:25:47control it. You can try. I mean, maybe
1:25:49you can do it. I haven't been able to do
1:25:51it. No, it's
1:25:52Yeah, cuz I was focusing on breathing
1:25:54rather than just talking right now. I'm
1:25:56not thinking about breathing, how I'm
1:25:57just Right. in and out, you know.
1:25:59>> So, it's really cool. Awareness
1:26:03is the first step to control. Why is
1:26:05this thing so hard for so many people
1:26:07who are stuck in their
1:26:10their minds that creates so much stress,
1:26:12anxiety, depression suicidal thoughts?
1:26:15Why is it so hard then? If it's so easy
1:26:18why is it so hard where people get get
1:26:20stuck for years or decades in this way
1:26:22of thinking? They need addictions,
1:26:24alcohol, drugs, medication to try to
1:26:26have some type of
1:26:28control over their thoughts or their
1:26:31their body, their functions? Why is it
1:26:33so hard? Okay.
1:26:35Beautiful question. If you What we just
1:26:37did right now in 30 seconds, awareness,
1:26:39I have it.
1:26:41Okay, let's be precise with our
1:26:42language. I never said it was easy. I
1:26:44just said it was simple. Okay.
1:26:47Biggest thing to understand
1:26:48>> is it Okay. The simpler something is,
1:26:51why is it so hard then? The simpler it
1:26:53is, the harder it is.
1:26:55The more complex it is, the easier it
1:26:57is.
1:26:58Okay? The simplest things in life are
1:27:00Yeah, so it's like Yeah, so it's like
1:27:03>> [laughter]
1:27:04>> Right? So, this is this is a really
1:27:06confusing thing. But if you look at
1:27:08like, you know, a master chef
1:27:10>> Uh-huh. it's simple for them. Yeah.
1:27:12Yeah.
1:27:14It becomes easy at some point. But
1:27:16generally speaking, this is what's kind
1:27:17of really interesting.
1:27:19The things that are really hard are
1:27:21actually the easier things. Because
1:27:22there's like 15 different components,
1:27:23and then I'm going to do this, and then
1:27:24I'm going to do this, and then I'm going
1:27:25to do this. There's a very interesting
1:27:27relationship between simplicity and
1:27:28hard. Mhm. You know, if if we took talk
1:27:31about
1:27:33you know, to be a good dad
1:27:35is a simple thing.
1:27:36>> But but you got to do a lot of things.
1:27:38>> hard.
1:27:38>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:27:40So, this is a big thing that we have to
1:27:41understand. The the simplest things in
1:27:43life are actually the hardest.
1:27:45How do I love myself?
1:27:47It's simple. It's not complicated. It
1:27:49doesn't have 18 different steps, and you
1:27:51do this, and you do this, and you do
1:27:53this. But it's hard. It's very hard.
1:27:56Well, it takes awareness consistently.
1:27:59>> Exactly. So, that gets to why it's so
1:28:01hard.
1:28:01>> When you're distracted and overwhelmed
1:28:03and responsibilities, and yeah.
1:28:05>> let's look at why it's hard. The first
1:28:06reason why it's really hard is because
1:28:08we haven't been trying.
1:28:11I wouldn't have thought about it.
1:28:12>> Right? We've never thought Literally
1:28:13literally.
1:28:16Bro, I was 18 years old. I woke up on
1:28:19the morning of I had set my alarm for
1:28:207:00 a.m. I had a Spanish final at 8:00
1:28:22a.m. I set my alarm at 7:00 a.m. And I
1:28:24thought about how
1:28:26when I went to the Spanish final
1:28:28I was going to be done in 15 minutes
1:28:30because I had skipped all the Spanish
1:28:31classes. I didn't know Spanish. So, what
1:28:33was I going to do? Stare at a piece of
1:28:34paper for 3 hours when I didn't know
1:28:35Spanish? And I decided not to go. I just
1:28:38skipped my final. F.
1:28:41If I just showed up, the professor had
1:28:43told me, if you show up, I'll give you a
1:28:44D. Yeah.
1:28:45Just show up.
1:28:46>> to know anything. So,
1:28:49I was so unaware. I was like, I was not
1:28:51a robot. I was I felt like I was swept
1:28:54up by my mind. I couldn't control my
1:28:56mind. I would plead with I would beg and
1:28:58hope, tomorrow, go to class, bro. Go to
1:29:01class. Please God, just go to class.
1:29:05And it wouldn't listen. Mhm.
1:29:07Why not?
1:29:08Because I wasn't aware. Mhm. I was
1:29:10trying to get it to do. I was not
1:29:12observing.
1:29:14Right? So, I I My daughter, here's a
1:29:16great example of just how powerful
1:29:18awareness is. My daughter was trying to
1:29:20close the box of a board game.
1:29:24I don't know if you've ever had this
1:29:24problem where, you know, if it's a
1:29:25little bit off, you can push down and
1:29:27it'll never close. No matter how hard
1:29:29you push it.
1:29:31And then all it takes is just a little
1:29:32shift.
1:29:33And then it'll slide right down. Easiest
1:29:35thing in the world.
1:29:37So, when we don't understand ourselves,
1:29:39when we aren't aware of what the problem
1:29:41is,
1:29:42then we can exert this we say, "Why is
1:29:44it so hard?" Because everyone is trying
1:29:47to push the door open when you've got to
1:29:50pull. That's life.
1:29:53Understand yourself. Understand how you
1:29:56work. Understand that a goal
1:29:58can actually inhibit your motivation. If
1:30:01you get a little bit of feedback and the
1:30:02goal now feels harder, your your mind
1:30:05will tell you, "Hey, it's not worth
1:30:06investing in." Now you have to overcome
1:30:07that.
1:30:09Understand
1:30:11that you actually don't control your
1:30:13thoughts. You can never control your
1:30:14thoughts. Imagine for a moment, if you
1:30:16agree with me, if I've made a logical
1:30:18argument and you now understand that you
1:30:19can't control your thoughts, you ask,
1:30:21"Why is it so hard?" Because everyone's
1:30:22trying to control their thoughts.
1:30:23They're trying to swim up a waterfall
1:30:25and you ask why it's hard.
1:30:27It's not complicated. You can't swim up
1:30:29a waterfall. Waterfall Water go down.
1:30:32Water don't go up. So, when you when you
1:30:34go to, you know, Harvard day one
1:30:36psychiatry training and and they're like
1:30:39101 of psychiatry training,
1:30:42"You can't control your thoughts." Is
1:30:43that something they teach you?
1:30:44>> No, so the crazy thing at at going to
1:30:46Harvard is they were teaching me all
1:30:47this stuff and they were like, "This is
1:30:48how the mind works." And I was like,
1:30:50"No, it isn't."
1:30:51Cuz I had learned about the mind in
1:30:53India.
1:30:54>> Uh-huh. So, they're teaching me what the
1:30:56subconscious is.
1:30:58They're teaching me all this stuff that
1:30:59is just one view of the mind. There's a
1:31:01different view of the mind, which I
1:31:03think is
1:31:04It's not that their view of the mind is
1:31:05wrong. We use both, right? But they're
1:31:09the way that the West studies the mind
1:31:10is problematic for one really simple
1:31:12reason, which is we have no way to
1:31:14actually measure the mind. If we look at
1:31:17how medicine works, how do we learn how
1:31:18does science learn things? Science
1:31:20learns things through observation.
1:31:22What's going on in your chest? We're
1:31:24going to x-ray you.
1:31:25What's What kind of bacteria's in your
1:31:27blood? We're going to do a blood
1:31:28culture.
1:31:30What's the x-ray for the mind? There's
1:31:31none. There's no way to detect the mind.
1:31:33>> And you can't put a scan on the a scan
1:31:35on the brain or on the head and get data
1:31:38from the mind.
1:31:38>> You can't. It's impossible. Right? So,
1:31:40how do we know which part of the brain
1:31:43anxiety comes from? Because we do a
1:31:45brain scan, we see some part of the
1:31:47brain is lighting up and then we ask
1:31:49you, "What are you feeling?" And we did
1:31:52that a thousand times and we figured
1:31:53out, "Okay, this part of the brain is
1:31:54where anxiety comes from." Yeah. So, in
1:31:56India, the yogis did it a different way.
1:31:59They observed their own thoughts. This
1:32:00is the cool thing.
1:32:02Because you're the only one I know this
1:32:04is going to sound like like weird
1:32:06question, Lewis.
1:32:09Am I thinking? Am I thinking being?
1:32:13Am I a robot? Do I Am I conscious?
1:32:16Or am I just a hallucination in your
1:32:18perception?
1:32:19Are you conscious? In my opinion, are
1:32:21you conscious?
1:32:22>> Yeah.
1:32:23Yeah. How do you know?
1:32:25It's based on my perception of the
1:32:27>> perceive?
1:32:28I perceive you in front of me, this five
1:32:30senses, the you know,
1:32:32>> Yeah, so do you have a sense of my
1:32:33thoughts and my consciousness? Do you
1:32:35have a sense that tells you that? Yeah.
1:32:37How? Tell me. Belief. Okay, belief is
1:32:41different than a sense.
1:32:43>> What are you perceiving? Pay attention.
1:32:45What are you perceiving? Can you see my
1:32:46thoughts?
1:32:48You're seeing my what?
1:32:49>> and your behavior around
1:32:51>> Yeah, but I could be empty up here.
1:32:52>> right. It's true, you could be. Right?
1:32:54>> I don't know for certainty, but
1:32:56>> is this is insane. I had a a patient
1:32:58once in the neuro ICU.
1:33:01We got consulted.
1:33:03And so, they're like, "Yeah, we think
1:33:04something's wrong. Like he's depressed."
1:33:06So, I I go to the neuro ICU. Guy got hit
1:33:09by a car and um was in a coma for a
1:33:11while. Now he's doing better.
1:33:14And then I'm like, "Hey, you know, so
1:33:15tell me a little bit about, you know,
1:33:16what's going on. How's your
1:33:18relationship?" He's like, "Oh, you know,
1:33:19my wife is great. She's here every day."
1:33:22"How's your relationship with your
1:33:23kids?" Seems like kids are fine. What's
1:33:25your recovery look like? He's like, "I'm
1:33:26going to have to do physical therapy.
1:33:27It's hard, you know, it hurts, but like
1:33:29I'm expected to make a full recovery."
1:33:31What's going on at work? You know, "My
1:33:32partners are fantastic. They're like
1:33:34they're going to cover things for 3
1:33:35months and I'll go back in the office
1:33:36maybe a month or two."
1:33:38So, I'm kind of like confused. Like
1:33:40everything's going to be fine.
1:33:41But he had a level of depression or
1:33:43>> some depression.
1:33:44So, I go back day after day after day
1:33:46because once you get consulted, you're
1:33:47responsible. And And so, you know, the
1:33:49last day he's he's going to be
1:33:50discharged. Like, bro, I got to be
1:33:52honest with you. I ask I come in, I ask
1:33:54you all these questions. You say
1:33:56nothing's wrong, but when I sit here,
1:33:58when I sit in the room with you, you
1:33:59seem depressed.
1:34:01Can you tell like Am I just like crazy?
1:34:03Like what's going on here?
1:34:05And then he kind of starts like breaking
1:34:06down into tears and I'm And he says
1:34:08like, "You know, it's it's crazy, but
1:34:10when I was in a coma,
1:34:12um I lived a whole life.
1:34:15I had a family. I was married to a
1:34:16different person.
1:34:17>> Come on. I I had two sons, not two
1:34:19daughters.
1:34:21And I realized that that was all fake,
1:34:22but like it hurts. Like they're gone.
1:34:24I'm never going to see them again.
1:34:25>> Different people.
1:34:26>> Just a completely different life. Wow.
1:34:30Right?
1:34:31And it's really weird.
1:34:33But like
1:34:34you know, you know, when I ask you,
1:34:36"Do I have thoughts?" Like you the only
1:34:39person that you know really exists. You
1:34:41could be in a coma right now. That's
1:34:43true. I mean, I could be in a coma.
1:34:45>> This could be a dream.
1:34:48>> Right?
1:34:49>> So, these fundamental things
1:34:51>> Is it a dream?
1:34:53We'll find out.
1:34:55At some point.
1:34:56>> Yeah.
1:34:57I mean, I think it's real.
1:34:58>> Mhm. But maybe I'm hallucinating you.
1:35:00Who knows? You know, so Descartes so was
1:35:01like cogito ergo sum, right? I think,
1:35:03therefore I am. At the end of the day,
1:35:05you can't tell the difference between a
1:35:06hallucination and a dream, but at least
1:35:08there is something there that is
1:35:10dreaming.
1:35:12Even if it's a dream, even if you're in
1:35:13a coma, there is still someone in the
1:35:15coma. Mhm.
1:35:17And and as we understand some of these
1:35:20basic things, like this is why it's hard
1:35:22because we don't understand that we're
1:35:23not our mind. You are that which
1:35:26experiences your mind and no one else
1:35:28experiences your mind. You are that
1:35:30which experiences your mind. You are the
1:35:32awareness of the experience of your
1:35:34mind.
1:35:34>> Of course, because you can observe your
1:35:36thoughts.
1:35:36>> Mhm.
1:35:37Can you see your eyes?
1:35:39Not unless I have a mirror. You are not
1:35:42seeing your eyes in a mirror. What are
1:35:43you seeing?
1:35:45>> There we go.
1:35:45>> Mhm.
1:35:47So, what you really are
1:35:48>> I'm observing it.
1:35:49>> You are observ- You are observing I can
1:35:52observe my hand. I can observe my mind.
1:35:55This hand is not me.
1:35:58It is a
1:35:59I own it. It's my hand.
1:36:01>> Yeah, yeah. But it's not me. Even if I I
1:36:03heaven forbid something happened, I lost
1:36:05a hand, I'd still be me. What is you?
1:36:08That which observes. It's empty,
1:36:10egoless, nothing.
1:36:12It's just the capacity for observation.
1:36:15And so, this is what's really cool.
1:36:17>> being of you that observes everything
1:36:20around you.
1:36:21>> Absolutely. So, here's the crazy thing.
1:36:23You want to know what you are?
1:36:25You're not a wise, passionate man.
1:36:27You're the thing that thinks you're a
1:36:29wise, passionate man. You're the thing
1:36:31that believes you're a wise, passionate
1:36:32man. You're the thing that has watched
1:36:35the construction. You have experienced
1:36:37every moment of your life. That's the
1:36:39only thing that makes you you.
1:36:42Ego is outside of that. We can construct
1:36:44the ego. Well done. You constructed a
1:36:46very healthy ego. We need healthy.
1:36:48>> Yeah. It's nice and rajasic.
1:36:51Seems like you're not having problems
1:36:53with heart attacks and stuff. So, you
1:36:54may not need to slow down.
1:36:55>> Right. I'm sure you've learned You're a
1:36:57professional athlete. You've learned the
1:36:58value of rest.
1:36:59>> 100%. Right? So, that's okay.
1:37:02So, as we understand these fundamentals,
1:37:05life becomes easier.
1:37:07As we start recognizing that
1:37:10don't just chase goals. Don't just get
1:37:13willpower. If you're feeling tired,
1:37:15rest.
1:37:16Rest or recognize Imagine this. If your
1:37:19brain thinks something is a bad idea,
1:37:24how does it let you know? It makes you
1:37:26feel tired.
1:37:27>> Mhm.
1:37:28If you really don't feel like doing
1:37:30something, you should really ask
1:37:31yourself, "What is my body and brain
1:37:33trying to tell me?" I It's so sad.
1:37:36People are in a relationship that's been
1:37:38dead for years.
1:37:40And the thought of seeing their partner
1:37:42makes them exhausted. That's your brain
1:37:45telling you something. Something's off.
1:37:47>> Something's off. And it's not that it
1:37:50This relationship has to end. You don't
1:37:51have to break up with the person, but
1:37:53you better damn well make a different
1:37:54relationship with them. Yes.
1:37:56So, you don't have to jump to the
1:37:57conclusions that your mind says, but
1:37:59like if you're feeling tired, instead of
1:38:01just taking a supplement and powering
1:38:04through, ask yourself, "Why am I feeling
1:38:06tired?" Spend more time with awareness.
1:38:09Then you'll know how to move the box a
1:38:11little bit and then life becomes easy.
1:38:13You don't have to work so hard.
1:38:14For someone who's going through
1:38:17a mental challenge, do you call it a
1:38:19mental diagnosis, a mental disorder, a
1:38:21mental disease?
1:38:22>> Depends on what they're going through.
1:38:23You have to tell me what Then I'll tell
1:38:25you what
1:38:25>> I mean, I guess
1:38:26anything from anxiety to psychosis.
1:38:28>> Okay. Is that Is that
1:38:29>> So, here here's what I don't want I
1:38:31don't want to categorize things the
1:38:32wrong way, I guess.
1:38:33>> So, if if something is going on in your
1:38:35mind and possibly in your body that
1:38:37impairs your function,
1:38:39then we call it a mental illness.
1:38:41Okay. So, if it interferes with your
1:38:43ability to work, if it interferes with
1:38:45your ability to do school, if it
1:38:47interferes with your relationships, if
1:38:48it interferes with your physical health,
1:38:50if it interferes with your mental
1:38:51health, if your anxiety is so bad that
1:38:53you can't go see your friends.
1:38:55>> You can't you can't leave the house.
1:38:57Well, it's not it's not that it it's
1:38:59can't it's impairment of function.
1:39:00>> Okay.
1:39:00>> If it's really hard to leave the house.
1:39:02>> Yes. Cuz so many people with depression
1:39:05are
1:39:08functional and empty.
1:39:09>> right right. Right?
1:39:10>> a mental illness.
1:39:11>> That's an illness. So, if it impairs
1:39:13function, that's the line. How do you
1:39:14When do you know you've healed a mental
1:39:16illness? And can you heal a mental
1:39:18illness without medicine?
1:39:21When do you know you you've healed a
1:39:22mental illness?
1:39:24Um so, what we shoot for in psychiatry
1:39:27is no longer impairment of function.
1:39:30So, even if you're depressed, if you're
1:39:32able to enjoy life, if you're able to
1:39:35form relationships, go to work, if the
1:39:37depression comes and goes a little bit,
1:39:38that's actually okay. That's not a
1:39:40mental illness anymore. Or it's in
1:39:42remission. Got you. Okay. So, I
1:39:45personally believe that many mental
1:39:47illnesses can be healed or cured, but
1:39:49that is not something I can say
1:39:51scientifically.
1:39:52>> Yes. So, we'll talk about remission
1:39:53because it can always come back, right?
1:39:55>> Sure. Sure. Sure. But in my experience,
1:39:57you know, people will be in sustained
1:39:58remission, and that's very common. The
1:40:00majority of people who have a depressive
1:40:02episode only have one in their life. So,
1:40:04then that begs kind of a philosophical
1:40:06question. Is it cured or is it
1:40:10>> just so dormant that and and and and not
1:40:13being triggered because your life isn't
1:40:14is healthy and Are you you know, does
1:40:16that kind of make sense?
1:40:17>> Yeah. Yeah. I think you're just saying.
1:40:18And can can you heal a mental illness
1:40:21without medication? I think so. I
1:40:24Without saying very very clear. Yeah. Uh
1:40:26medication never heals mental illness.
1:40:28Oh. And I think most psychiatrists would
1:40:30agree with me with that. I don't think
1:40:31most people understand that. They think
1:40:34medication will heal them. No,
1:40:36medication manages your symptoms. Right?
1:40:39That's why we say if you have ADHD and
1:40:41you take a stimulant medication for a
1:40:44month, it's not like your ADHD is gone
1:40:45at the end of the month.
1:40:46>> So, meditation or medication cannot heal
1:40:49your mental illness.
1:40:50>> I do not believe so.
1:40:51And you're a Harvard
1:40:52>> Whoa.
1:40:53There's maybe some exceptions to that,
1:40:54but generally speaking, 90 99% of
1:40:57medications that we prescribe will
1:41:00manage symptoms. They will not heal
1:41:02anything.
1:41:03>> What heals the symptoms so that the
1:41:05illness goes away?
1:41:07Awareness? No, healing the symptoms What
1:41:10alleviates the symptoms?
1:41:12Symptoms are the fruit of the tree.
1:41:15Uh-huh. The illness is the tree.
1:41:18So, if I
1:41:19>> want to remove the symptom or remove the
1:41:20illness? Well, it what
1:41:22That depends on you. So, the reason
1:41:24people take medication is because they
1:41:27usually don't have the time, energy, or
1:41:29money to do the healing. Which it takes
1:41:32time to sit there and observe yourself
1:41:35and meditate or do what's necessary.
1:41:37>> So, I think psychotherapy is the best
1:41:40evidence-based practice for healing
1:41:43something.
1:41:43>> What's the difference between
1:41:44psychotherapy and talk therapy?
1:41:46Uh psychotherapy is the broader umbrella
1:41:49of things that we call talk therapy. And
1:41:51it's under Talk therapy is in
1:41:53psychotherapy.
1:41:53>> Yes. So, much of psychotherapy is
1:41:55talking, but as an example, if you have
1:41:58something like OCD,
1:42:00um we'll do something called exposure
1:42:02and response prevention. So, if you have
1:42:03a phobia of like if you're
1:42:05claustrophobic, talking about how you're
1:42:07claustrophobic
1:42:08Yeah. And start to feel calm and peace
1:42:11or
1:42:11>> Well, start No, start to feel terrified
1:42:14and then survive terror and then realize
1:42:17that terror is not to be feared.
1:42:19>> Yeah, you're not going to die. You're
1:42:20not going to die, right? And you don't
1:42:22die. And then we're going to put you in
1:42:23that situation again and again and
1:42:24again.
1:42:25>> Teach you how to relax Not even
1:42:27Yeah, we're going to teach you how to
1:42:28relax, but actually we don't have to
1:42:29teach you. All you need to do is just
1:42:31survive.
1:42:32>> Wow.
1:42:33And then you will acclimatize to it.
1:42:35Sure.
1:42:36Right? So, we're going to encourage some
1:42:37good neuroplasticity there.
1:42:39>> And that's one of the best ways to
1:42:40overcome fears by, you know, I guess
1:42:43exposing yourself to the fear.
1:42:45>> right? So, so for fear-based things,
1:42:46whether it's social anxiety,
1:42:48got to go to that party.
1:42:49>> party, yeah. Yeah, right? Go get
1:42:51rejected by the girl. Go
1:42:52>> Go get rejected by Yeah, absolutely.
1:42:54>> you're going to survive. And know that
1:42:55you're going to survive. So, confidence
1:42:57doesn't come from success, it comes from
1:42:59surviving failure. Mhm. Right? When you
1:43:01believe in yourself and this is
1:43:03>> [laughter]
1:43:11>> Right. No, but but really, like it's
1:43:13it's like it's so we you know, we can
1:43:14talk about talk about your Olympic
1:43:16aspirations and stuff, right? And it's
1:43:18like I know I know you're going to
1:43:20you're going to charge into that because
1:43:22you have failed and you've picked
1:43:23yourself up off the mat. 100%. Right?
1:43:26And when I work with patients who have
1:43:27addictions, like their big thing is
1:43:30you really conquer an addiction when you
1:43:32learn to pick yourself up.
1:43:34Not when you avoid falling down. Mhm.
1:43:36So, when you fail, you know, I've I've
1:43:39never
1:43:40been drunk in my life and I've never
1:43:41done drugs or any of these things or
1:43:42been high.
1:43:43And but I can assume how hard it could
1:43:46be to overcome the addiction of alcohol
1:43:47for people that have been alcoholics or
1:43:50drinking consistently. I can assume it's
1:43:52extremely challenging
1:43:54without the right tools. Even with the
1:43:55right tools, it's still very difficult,
1:43:57I can assume. Again, I've never
1:43:58experienced it. It but it's it's not the
1:44:01person who has been an alcoholic or
1:44:03having alcoholic tendencies
1:44:06that never does it. It's when they
1:44:08relapse and drink and then they pick
1:44:10themselves up and go another
1:44:12100 days without it or whatever it is.
1:44:14>> Yes. So, so if you think about it,
1:44:15damage control is a skill that you can
1:44:17learn. Yeah. Just like anything else.
1:44:20So, I think a lot of these can be
1:44:22It's not clear how much it can be
1:44:24healed. So, I wouldn't if if you were
1:44:27>> and and So, so I think for every person
1:44:29it's somewhere in the middle.
1:44:30>> Yeah. But I think that we have good
1:44:32evidence of healing. Yes. So, for
1:44:35example, you know, some people who have
1:44:37things like PTSD, like we can sort of
1:44:39like rewire their brain and kind of fix
1:44:40that and it kind of goes away. Um other
1:44:43examples of this are things like
1:44:45personality disorders. So, there are
1:44:47people with like borderline personality
1:44:49disorder or narcissistic personality
1:44:51disorder where we can like do
1:44:52psychotherapy with them for some amount
1:44:54of time. They also have to want it,
1:44:56right? They have to want to Yeah. If
1:44:58you're resistant to it, you're not going
1:44:59to improve. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think I
1:45:02think they absolutely have to want it,
1:45:03but even wanting it is a tricky thing.
1:45:06>> Sure. Cuz there it's totally miss,
1:45:08right? Or would you say
1:45:09>> it's totally fine for a part of you to
1:45:11not want it.
1:45:13Yeah, you don't want to face these parts
1:45:15of you. Yeah. And there there but there
1:45:16has to be some part of you that is
1:45:18willing to do the work, absolutely. I
1:45:20I've never seen a case I'm trying to
1:45:22think if I've ever seen I've never seen
1:45:24a case of it working without the
1:45:25patient. Yeah, just forcing the patient,
1:45:28you mean? But but a big part of what I
1:45:29do is people come into my office and are
1:45:33reluctant. Mhm.
1:45:35>> So, a big part of it is even if you
1:45:36don't want it, even if cuz people are
1:45:38afraid. They don't come in wanting it,
1:45:40right? They They come in sometimes
1:45:41kicking and screaming. No one wants to
1:45:43be wrong. No one wants to be like
1:45:45something is wrong and bad with me. We
1:45:46don't want that.
1:45:48We don't want to feel like, man, I'm a
1:45:49failure. I've messed up. I've got this
1:45:51thing that I can't figure out on my own
1:45:53and that's why I have this addictive
1:45:54personality or I smoke or I drink,
1:45:56cheat, or porn, whatever it is. Like I
1:45:58do these things that don't feel good.
1:46:01And I don't want to admit that. No one
1:46:02wants to admit that something is wrong
1:46:03with them.
1:46:04>> Yeah, what we all want to do is solve
1:46:06our problems in secret and then come out
1:46:07triumphant. Yeah. And Or no one even
1:46:10knows we have the problem, I guess. It's
1:46:11like we don't want to reveal
1:46:12>> Absolutely. We don't want to reveal that
1:46:13to the world cuz that's shame.
1:46:15Absolutely. That doesn't feel good.
1:46:17But I I I do think we can heal for the
1:46:20most part. Yeah. And And I think even if
1:46:22we don't It is in some people's karma to
1:46:25always have a brain that is going to
1:46:28produce depressive thoughts.
1:46:30We know, for example, that there are
1:46:31some genetic polymorphisms in the
1:46:34serotonin transporters in your brain can
1:46:36be a little bit different. And so, if
1:46:37they're a little bit shorter, we're more
1:46:39prone to things like depression. So,
1:46:40there are some things about mental
1:46:42illness that are not fixable. Yeah. But
1:46:44in my overwhelming In my career, I've
1:46:46seen over a thousand patients. There are
1:46:48three that I can think of that I've been
1:46:51basically unable to help in a
1:46:53significant way.
1:46:55So, 99.9%
1:46:57of patients you've seen improve their
1:46:59mental Yes.
1:47:00>> illnesses or mental disorders or mental
1:47:03stresses into having a more empowering
1:47:06mind that makes them feel better.
1:47:07>> And I I would even go as far as to say
1:47:09that cure is the wrong target.
1:47:11>> Mhm. It's improvement, right? It's
1:47:12manage Yeah. I I I
1:47:14I think it's your life doesn't have to
1:47:15be so hard.
1:47:17>> Yes.
1:47:18You don't have to cure it. That's what
1:47:20everybody wants. Everyone wants to be
1:47:21completely free, whereas I think that's
1:47:23the once again the goal, right? Like I
1:47:25want to be free of this forever. I I
1:47:27think the challenge, and this can be
1:47:28really depressing to hear, is like yeah,
1:47:30this is going to be a part of you, but
1:47:32just because it's a part of you, it's so
1:47:33exhausting right now, but you can learn
1:47:35to live with it. It can be a part of
1:47:36you.
1:47:36>> Yeah. I was addicted to video games.
1:47:38It's a huge part of who I am.
1:47:40I had a gigantic ego. It's a huge part
1:47:42of who I am.
1:47:44You know, and I think this is what's
1:47:45really weird. I've had patients who'll
1:47:46be like, yeah, cancer is the best thing
1:47:47that happened to me. I'm like, what are
1:47:48you What are you smoking?
1:47:51But this is what's really crazy is life
1:47:53is about all of these things. It's about
1:47:55the good and the bad. To be detached
1:47:57from just wanting good Mhm. and wanting
1:48:00to avoid bad at all costs. That's when
1:48:02we get into trouble.
1:48:03>> Yeah.
1:48:04If all you want in life is the good
1:48:06stuff, you will not be in control of
1:48:08your own actions, be able to embrace
1:48:10that negativity.
1:48:11Don't run away from it. Then you're Then
1:48:14you have control.
1:48:17Control is about
1:48:18being independent of the responses that
1:48:22life sends your way.
1:48:25This thing sucks.
1:48:27I didn't want to go swimming today.
1:48:30It felt bad. It was torturous.
1:48:34And I did [snorts] it.
1:48:35>> laps or five? Five. Yeah, you you see
1:48:37you did five and then you're like, I'm
1:48:38done.
1:48:39>> I did five. Yeah. I forced my ass to get
1:48:41into the pool.
1:48:42I thought you were going to say in the
1:48:43beginning, cuz we never finished with
1:48:45that story was that you're like, okay, I
1:48:47got there, I did five, then I kept going
1:48:48a few more. But you're like, I'm just
1:48:50doing what I said I was going to do.
1:48:51Yeah, so often times I will do a little
1:48:53bit more.
1:48:54>> Yeah. Yeah. But today was a day where I
1:48:56was like, I did five and and that's
1:48:58that's enough. Yes.
1:48:59>> It's enough.
1:48:59>> Yeah.
1:49:00And I thought about, do I want to do
1:49:02more? Do I want to squeeze out one or
1:49:03two more? And I was like, not today.
1:49:05>> I'm
1:49:06>> Yeah, cuz you've been on the road for 9
1:49:07days, you've been working, you've been,
1:49:08you know, eating a little extra food
1:49:10here probably and
1:49:12I actually haven't been eating extra
1:49:13food. That's the problem, yeah. You
1:49:15needed more calories. Yeah. Oh, okay.
1:49:17Yeah.
1:49:18I love it. I've got a couple final
1:49:19questions for you, doc, okay? But I want
1:49:21people to follow you, HealthyGamerGG
1:49:24on YouTube, Spotify, social media, all
1:49:26the places.
1:49:28Um and I think it's healthygamer.gg
1:49:30as well. What's the website for you to
1:49:32check
1:49:33>> Yeah, yeah. So a lot of your content, I
1:49:35think you've got, you know, millions of
1:49:37subscribers over on YouTube, a lot of
1:49:38great stuff over on Instagram that I've
1:49:40been consuming.
1:49:41Um books, all the different stuff. I
1:49:43want people to go check it out,
1:49:44healthygamer.gg.
1:49:47And you have guides to mental health.
1:49:49Yeah. And a lot of these things are
1:49:50coming out here in the next month or
1:49:52two. So if people want to get more of
1:49:54this information, they can get some of
1:49:55your guides to mental health, topics on
1:49:58love, relationships, etc. If they go to
1:50:01healthygamer.gg,
1:50:03you'll get the information on how you
1:50:04can get some of these guides. And I
1:50:05think your guides are like, you know, 20
1:50:06or 30 bucks or something. I think
1:50:08they're very affordable. So I recommend
1:50:10people going and getting more
1:50:11information on you there.
1:50:13This question is something I
1:50:15I ask everyone at the end. It's called
1:50:16the three truths. So hypothetical
1:50:19scenario,
1:50:20even though you are ego-less and
1:50:22formless and have no identity,
1:50:24but uh in the future,
1:50:26you have just transcended the world.
1:50:28But in the future, let's hypothetical
1:50:30scenario, you get to
1:50:33live your life in this world exactly how
1:50:36you want to. Okay. For the rest of your
1:50:38life. Okay.
1:50:39You get to create, experience,
1:50:41accomplish, you know, or not accomplish
1:50:44goals
1:50:45uh how you want, but it's the last day
1:50:47on this earth for you.
1:50:48>> Yeah. And for whatever reason, all the
1:50:49content you've created
1:50:51is no longer with us in this world. So
1:50:53it either has to go with you or it's
1:50:54eliminated from the world. But you get
1:50:56to leave behind three lessons from all
1:50:59the work you've done or not done or
1:51:01accomplished or not accomplished.
1:51:03Three lessons that you would get to
1:51:04leave behind. I call it the three
1:51:06truths. Beautiful. What would those be
1:51:07for you?
1:51:09Number one is understanding is more
1:51:11important than effort.
1:51:12Okay.
1:51:13That one's and I think about this
1:51:15because I wonder, you know, if I I teach
1:51:17all this stuff on on the internet and
1:51:19whatnot, but I think about what would I
1:51:21teach my kids?
1:51:23Um so definitely understanding is more
1:51:27important than effort.
1:51:28>> Hmm.
1:51:29I think
1:51:31mistakes are a part of your journey
1:51:34is another huge one.
1:51:37And uh
1:51:38I I I'd say the third thing is is
1:51:45the results of your life are determined
1:51:47by your actions.
1:51:49Right? I know we said that we don't
1:51:50control our but like I like action is
1:51:52all you've got. So that's the one
1:51:54resource.
1:51:57And kind of related to that,
1:52:00this is a a huge thing. I think people
1:52:02don't realize that 99% of the actions
1:52:04that you take are in your head.
1:52:07Literally.
1:52:09So an an action the way you respond to
1:52:12your thoughts is an action.
1:52:14>> yeah. So how you think about a thought
1:52:16is an action.
1:52:17A how you respond to a thought is an
1:52:20action.
1:52:20>> thought. Sometimes that's what people
1:52:22do. Right. They think
1:52:24I'm a loser and then they respond to it
1:52:26by confirming
1:52:27Yeah, they spiral. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:52:29Right? So when we talk about a thought
1:52:30spiral, that is
1:52:32not controlling our response to
1:52:34thoughts.
1:52:35>> Mhm.
1:52:37And and literally, literally, the most
1:52:39important thing that you can do
1:52:41is change the way and control the way
1:52:44that you respond to what your mind
1:52:46generates.
1:52:46>> Mhm.
1:52:48Win-lose into win-win. You did it right
1:52:50there. Yeah.
1:52:51It sounds like if you can
1:52:54train
1:52:56or develop the skill of learning how to
1:52:58respond to your thoughts,
1:53:01you will live a much better life.
1:53:02Undoubtedly.
1:53:04If that is the number one skill that you
1:53:05develop is how to respond to your
1:53:07thinking, Undoubtedly. you it will
1:53:11influence the quality or lack of quality
1:53:13of your life.
1:53:13>> Yeah, so it'll change your actions,
1:53:16it'll change practically what your life
1:53:17looks like. Mhm.
1:53:19And it'll change your peace. 100%.
1:53:23It'll impact your emotions, too.
1:53:25Absolutely.
1:53:25>> How you feel. Absolutely.
1:53:28So we we you know, the the first Do
1:53:30thoughts influence feelings or feelings
1:53:32influence thoughts?
1:53:32>> Both. Yeah.
1:53:34So thoughts emotions shape our thoughts
1:53:37and thoughts shape our emotions. So
1:53:39usually the first this is the key thing
1:53:41is the first emotion we don't have much
1:53:43control over,
1:53:44but what we do with that emotion
1:53:47that's the key thing.
1:53:49Correct me if I'm wrong. I have a belief
1:53:50that most
1:53:53doctors,
1:53:56professors,
1:53:57extremely intelligent, successful
1:54:00academics
1:54:02think more than they feel.
1:54:04Absolutely. They're more analytical than
1:54:06they feel. Yes. But it sounds like you
1:54:08have this unique experience of
1:54:10practicing yoga, meditation,
1:54:13you know, being with monks for many
1:54:14years
1:54:16and deepening a spiritual, more of
1:54:17emotional practice, I would say, in your
1:54:20body as well, not only analytical in
1:54:23your mind.
1:54:25Have you been able to navigate the
1:54:27mind-emotion
1:54:29connection well or do you feel like you
1:54:31still had blockages in your body or in
1:54:34your emotions because you're in your
1:54:35head? Both. Yeah. Right? So so I I I
1:54:38think I I think it never never the work
1:54:40is never done. Yeah, yeah. And you're
1:54:42always going to have problems. Mhm. And
1:54:44that's okay. Yeah.
1:54:45Right? So we have this idea of like
1:54:47problems are only a problem if you don't
1:54:49know how to deal with them. Yeah.
1:54:52If you stay stuck in them. If you stay
1:54:53stuck in them.
1:54:54>> Yeah, yeah. Right? So you know, falling
1:54:55down is only an issue if you can't get
1:54:57back up.
1:54:59>> [laughter]
1:55:01>> That's what I have to do. So that's the
1:55:02way I respond. If I even hear it in my
1:55:04own head Uh-huh. to avoid myself from
1:55:06becoming a guru. Yeah.
1:55:08I look at my butt. Come on, I would I
1:55:10will do every I will give you peace and
1:55:13joy. So well a lot of people this is
1:55:14really fascinating. There's a lot of
1:55:16information about intelligence.
1:55:17>> Uh-huh.
1:55:18So one interesting question I had is why
1:55:20isn't everyone a genius? Hmm. So if you
1:55:23think about like evolution, right? And
1:55:25the way that our bodies evolve and
1:55:26things like that, well like why wouldn't
1:55:27just everyone be smarter? Yeah. Why not?
1:55:29So it turns out that intelligence is a
1:55:32double-edged sword, especially really
1:55:34high.
1:55:35So a couple of really fascinating
1:55:36statistics. If you look at the top 10%
1:55:40uh top 10% of intelligence,
1:55:43those people make way more money than
1:55:45the top 1%. Why?
1:55:48Cuz they have an they're more naive,
1:55:49also?
1:55:50Uh
1:55:51the top 1%?
1:55:52>> The top the top 9%, I guess, are more
1:55:54naive. No, so so so if you if you take
1:55:56the
1:55:5710 smartest people in a room of a
1:55:59hundred, they will make more money than
1:56:01the smartest person in the room. Hmm. So
1:56:03at some point intelligence becomes
1:56:05harmful. Ah. Cuz it's a lack of action
1:56:08probably, right?
1:56:09>> Well, it's a couple of things. One is
1:56:10that
1:56:11people who are very smart are actually
1:56:14more prone to depression. Why? Because
1:56:16they realize how screwed they are. They
1:56:18can calculate their problems way easier.
1:56:21Second thing is the more intelligent you
1:56:22are, the more emotionally underdeveloped
1:56:26you become. Mhm. Because your brain you
1:56:28solve all your problems with intellect
1:56:30instead of emotion. Uh-huh. So often
1:56:33times people who have high IQ have lower
1:56:35EQ. Mhm. And the reason for this is
1:56:38because if I have, you know, a dominant
1:56:39hand, I'm going to use it all the time
1:56:41and my left hand will become weaker.
1:56:42Yeah. So as as intelligence becomes your
1:56:45tool of choice, other parts of your
1:56:48brain will actually be underdeveloped.
1:56:49>> Mhm. They become more dormant.
1:56:51Absolutely. Wow.
1:56:53And you need both, the body, the
1:56:54emotions, the minds, the body, heart,
1:56:57soul.
1:56:57>> healthiest way to be is to use the full
1:57:00capacity of what's at your disposal.
1:57:02People with super high IQ are basically
1:57:04one-trick ponies.
1:57:05And so there's stuff some stuff that
1:57:07they're good at and some stuff that
1:57:08they're not good at. And you want to
1:57:09have a a range of
1:57:11skill sets.
1:57:12>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at
1:57:14you. Mhm. Right? Curious, intellectual,
1:57:18thoughtful, Yeah. physically
1:57:20on point,
1:57:21>> And nothing emotionally connected.
1:57:23>> at all. And nothing at all.
1:57:24>> at all. You know, ego-less, formless.
1:57:26Yeah, not yet, but you'll get there.
1:57:28One day I'll ascend to your level. Uh
1:57:30descend. Descend.
1:57:32>> [laughter]
1:57:34>> Yeah. Become nothing. Yeah. Final
1:57:36question for you. What what is your
1:57:37definition of greatness?
1:57:41I I think it's to lean into being fully
1:57:45you. If you look at most people, if you
1:57:47this kind of going to sound kind of
1:57:48weird, but you pay attention to their
1:57:49head, they're running away from
1:57:51themselves.
1:57:53I don't want to be this. I want to be
1:57:54like this. I want to be like this
1:57:55person. I want to be like you're not
1:57:56being you.
1:57:57And so then you look at what other
1:57:58people are doing and you're like, oh,
1:57:59this person wakes up at this time and
1:58:01this person wakes up at this time. I I I
1:58:03if I have time for a story. Go ahead. So
1:58:06you know, I was in my first the second,
1:58:08third week of medical school and I saw
1:58:10like all of my colleagues would like
1:58:11study a lot, right? Like so we go to
1:58:13class and they'd be like chugging coffee
1:58:15and it's like 7:00 p.m., 8:00 p.m., 9:00
1:58:16p.m., 10:00 p.m., 11:00 p.m. They're at
1:58:18the library and I was trying to do that
1:58:20cuz I was like I have all this stuff to
1:58:21learn. It just didn't work.
1:58:23So then I was I didn't do great on my
1:58:25first set of tests and I was like I got
1:58:26to figure this out. And I was like I
1:58:28just can't work like these people. So
1:58:30instead I I leaned into my yoga
1:58:31training, woke up at 4:30 every day,
1:58:33would study for 2 hours a day
1:58:36between 5:00 and 7:00 in the morning and
1:58:38then I would go to class, finish class,
1:58:40go home,
1:58:42you know, just do whatever
1:58:43and then I'd go to sleep. Mhm.
1:58:45So I only studied 2 hours a day in
1:58:47medical school. In the right 2 hours of
1:58:49the day, everything goes into my head,
1:58:51it's fresh. My absorption just drops so
1:58:53much when I'm fatigued. I'm not sleeping
1:58:55well because I had so much caffeine.
1:58:57So lean into who you are.
1:59:00You have a unique set you're a unique
1:59:02set of genetics, unique set of
1:59:04experiences. You have talents that other
1:59:06people can't even imagine.
1:59:08>> Mhm. But as long as you are trying to be
1:59:10someone else,
1:59:12the strategy that worked for somebody
1:59:14else worked for that set of genetics,
1:59:17worked at that time.
1:59:20You know, we were talking earlier about
1:59:21Mask of Masculinity. It's a book that I
1:59:23think every dude should check out.
1:59:25This is the book that should have been
1:59:27that people should be writing today. You
1:59:28were too early.
1:59:29>> I know I was.
1:59:30Right?
1:59:31>> Yeah. Everyone's talking about
1:59:32masculinity now. You did it before it
1:59:33was cool.
1:59:34>> Oh, yeah. And so like you have to lean
1:59:36into who you are. Mhm.
1:59:39That's how you're going to be
1:59:41great. Yeah.
1:59:44Can't live anybody else's life. Mhm.
1:59:46Stop trying. Okay. Thanks, man.
1:59:48Powerful.
1:59:49Great, dude.
1:59:51Every thought [music] you have impacts
1:59:54every cell in your body. So, for [music]
1:59:56example, if I said mother, my hands got
1:59:58warm. Now, if you said father, hands get
2:00:01colder, they get sweatier. Every thought
2:00:04[music] you have impacts every cell.

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