GTA co-creator on GTA 6 - launch excitement and pressure | Dan Houser and Lex Fridman — Transcript

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1. 0:02Let me ask you about the pressure.
2. 0:05Uh there's an insane level of excitement
3. 0:07and expectation for Grand Theft Auto 6.
4. 0:10Uh same was true for GTA 5 and GTA 4 and
5. 0:14even before that and you and the team
6. 0:16delivered every time. Uh how difficult
7. 0:20was it to uh do creative work under such
8. 0:24pressure where everyone expects this to
9. 0:26be a success?
10. 0:27I was pretty good at compartmentalizing,
11. 0:30you know, and at just saying and at I
12. 0:33try just to go and when with all
13. 0:36creative work, I I I go, well, I feel
14. 0:38like a terrible fraud, but I haven't
15. 0:41been found out yet. Just do my best and
16. 0:43hopefully I won't be found out this
17. 0:44time. And just if I can be if I can go,
18. 0:49I tried hard with the work. I tried to
19. 0:51do it with integrity. I tried not to
20. 0:53copy someone else. I probably done all
21. 0:55of the above. You know, try to bring
22. 0:57something new to it and we may and we as
23. 1:00a group [clears throat] made something
24. 1:00we are proud of, then that's enough. You
25. 1:03can't if you don't want to go insane or
26. 1:06if I didn't want to go insane, I
27. 1:07couldn't sit there and worry about
28. 1:08financial results. You know, if we made
29. 1:10something great and it didn't sell, that
30. 1:12would have to be okay. Uh because the
31. 1:14goal is to make something that's, you
32. 1:17know, video games are expensive. So, it
33. 1:19is a sort of commercial form of
34. 1:21creativity. it's a commercial art form,
35. 1:23you know, so
36. 1:25you have to be an alumni. You're
37. 1:27spending large amounts of someone else's
38. 1:28money. Um, you have to try and make it
39. 1:31back for them. But at the same time, my
40. 1:33my argument with myself was, well, if we
41. 1:35the way to make it back is try and make
42. 1:36something great. So, both pressures are
43. 1:38pointing in the same direction. Um,
44. 1:41I think GTA 4 was very pressured because
45. 1:44there've been all this pressure on the
46. 1:46company. The company nearly imploded
47. 1:48several times uh due to hot coffee. It
48. 1:50was extremely tough. So, I think that
49. 1:52felt very stressful. GTA 3, the company
50. 1:55was basically broke, but I was young. I
51. 1:57didn't really care, [clears throat]
52. 1:58>> you know. It wasn't I wasn't living in
53. 1:59in in in the grown-up world yet. All of
54. 2:01them had their own pressure. All of the
55. 2:03games had their own pressure. All the
56. 2:04more I felt I'd gone into it creatively
57. 2:08and tried to be more ambitious. For me
58. 2:10personally, I felt more pressure, you
59. 2:12know, when it uh when it came out that
60. 2:14that that would that would have been the
61. 2:15right choice because again, if you're
62. 2:17trying to take big swings creatively and
63. 2:20you've spent a lot of money, that can be
64. 2:21quite stressful. You know, I think with
65. 2:23with with Red Dead 2 when you know, we
66. 2:25were behind schedule, we were over
67. 2:28budget so much I didn't want to think
68. 2:29about it and you're making a game about
69. 2:32a cowboy dying of TB and the game's not
70. 2:36coming together. Turns out a lot of
71. 2:38people doubt you at that moment. you
72. 2:39know, it's not that fun. So, I think
73. 2:41that was a lot of pressure. Um, but you
74. 2:44know, anything if you're doing something
75. 2:45new, you know, the new stuff, there's
76. 2:47not necessary pressure on releasing a
77. 2:48comic book or in the same way cuz it's
78. 2:50not taken as long, but you know, if
79. 2:52you're making things, there's always
80. 2:53pressure that people are going to like
81. 2:54it.
82. 2:55>> Why do you think there was so much
83. 2:56excitement about GTA 4, GTA 5, and now
84. 2:59GTA 6? because they don't come out that
85. 3:02regularly. And I think we did a really
86. 3:06good job of constantly innovating within
87. 3:08what the IP was. The games always felt
88. 3:10different. You know, people have very
89. 3:11strong feelings. I like this one. I
90. 3:12didn't like that one as much cuz they
91. 3:14are pretty different. So you there would
92. 3:16be simultaneously where you know what's
93. 3:17going to happen. It's a Grand Theft
94. 3:19Auto. You know, it's going to be a game
95. 3:20about being a criminal, but the way it's
96. 3:22going to be a game is going to change
97. 3:23quite a lot. So, I think the way the the
98. 3:25IP kept evolving meant people being
99. 3:27really excited to play it and we were
100. 3:29good at marketing them as well. We we
101. 3:30really tried to market them in a way
102. 3:32that felt like an update of classic film
103. 3:36marketing where you were really felt
104. 3:37like you're already in the product just
105. 3:39because you'd seen the trailers and
106. 3:40stuff.
107. 3:40>> You mentioned that you haven't written
108. 3:42for Grand Theft Auto 6. What's it feel
109. 3:44like Grand Theft Auto 6 returning to
110. 3:46Vice City? This is over 20 years later,
111. 3:49but the original GTA Vice City game was
112. 3:51set in the 80s. So maybe inspired by
113. 3:55Scarface a little bit.
114. 3:57>> Scarface, Miami Vice,
115. 3:58>> Miami Vice
116. 4:00>> and our 80s childhoods. You know the
117. 4:03what I realized quite a while ago
118. 4:05unfortunately was that we made that game
119. 4:08and it was set I think in ' 86 and it we
120. 4:11made it in 2002 so 16 years after and
121. 4:15now it's waved past 16 years since Vice
122. 4:17City came out. So it was uh the 80s were
123. 4:19not that long ago when we made it. You
124. 4:21know, I think Miami is one of the most
125. 4:23unique cities in the world.
126. 4:24>> Oh, yeah.
127. 4:25>> Especially if you're thinking about
128. 4:26satarizing American culture. Has this
129. 4:28duality of a glossy surface and a dark
130. 4:31underworld. Has the influencers, has the
131. 4:33crypto bros, the yachts, bikinis,
132. 4:35plastic surgery, sports cars, drugs,
133. 4:37cartel cash, luxury, super rich people,
134. 4:40and uh the desperately poor. Just the
135. 4:42whole of it. Would it be like the
136. 4:44perfect city to explore the full cast of
137. 4:49uh characters that are possible that
138. 4:51human nature can generate? I think it's
139. 4:53one of them. You know, there's a reason
140. 4:54why GTA kept coming back to Miami, New
141. 4:58York, Los Angeles.
142. 5:00>> I think they're all very good for
143. 5:01exactly what you laid out. You know, you
144. 5:03could you could say move it to any of
145. 5:05those and it would work,
146. 5:06>> you know.
147. 5:07>> So, yeah, there's a melting pot aspect
148. 5:09also, right?
149. 5:10>> Yeah. A melting pot aspect to LA. You
150. 5:11know, there's glitz, glamour,
151. 5:13underbelly, immigrants,
152. 5:16>> you know, enormous wealth in all of
153. 5:17them. I think those are what I think are
154. 5:19really fun for any, not even just for
155. 5:21GTA, but for anything where you want a
156. 5:23kind of slice of life, almost like a
157. 5:25sort of psychotic version of a Dickens
158. 5:28book, you know, this big slice of life.
159. 5:30He did it with London, you know, this
160. 5:32psychotic version of of these, you know,
161. 5:35big all kinds of characters in a melting
162. 5:37pot. Any of these global cities work
163. 5:40well for that. Do you know if that was
164. 5:41ever a consideration to go elsewhere
165. 5:44to like a London?
166. 5:46>> We made a little thing in London 26
167. 5:49years ago, GTA London for the top down
168. 5:52for the PS1. Um, that was pretty cute
169. 5:55and fun as the first mission pack ever
170. 5:57for PlayStation one. I think for a full
171. 6:00GTA game, we always decided it was there
172. 6:04was so much Americana inherent in the
173. 6:06IP, it would be really hard to make it
174. 6:08work in London or who else. You know,
175. 6:10you needed guns, you needed this larger
176. 6:12than life characters. It, you know, it
177. 6:14just it just felt like it was the game
178. 6:17was so much about America, you know,
179. 6:19possibly from an outsiders perspective,
180. 6:20but you know, that that was so much
181. 6:23about what the thing was that it
182. 6:24wouldn't really have worked in the same
183. 6:25way elsewhere. So, you've you've created
184. 6:28I don't know how many over 10 Grand
185. 6:30Theft Auto games,
186. 6:31>> I think. So,
187. 6:32>> I have to ask, is it a little bit
188. 6:35bittersweet to say to not be part to say
189. 6:38goodbye to the Grand Theft Auto world
190. 6:41and having to watch Grand Theft Auto 6
191. 6:43released or is it more excitement? Is it
192. 6:45What's the feeling?
193. 6:47>> I think it's a it's
194. 6:50how would I describe it? Of course, it's
195. 6:52all all of the above, you know. It's
196. 6:55it's exactly as you you know pleased to
197. 6:58be doing other stuff. Excited for what
198. 6:59we're working on now. Super excited. Um
199. 7:04of course letting go of something. I
200. 7:06worked on it one way or another for like
201. 7:0820 odd years, you know, and and and
202. 7:11wrote on them for the last 10 or 11 that
203. 7:14came out. Wrote all of them, you know,
204. 7:16lead writer all them, whatever it was.
205. 7:18Um,
206. 7:20so of course letting go of that
207. 7:23is, you know, is a big is a big change
208. 7:25and and a lot and and and sad in a way.
209. 7:28Um, because
210. 7:31it was each of the games was a kind of
211. 7:33standalone story. It's not quite the
212. 7:36same as as I think probably it would be
213. 7:38in some ways sadder if someone continued
214. 7:40on Red Dead because it was a cohesive
215. 7:42twoame arc. That might be more sad to
216. 7:46hear someone working on that. But again,
217. 7:47not that that will probably happen, too.
218. 7:48They're not I don't own the IP. That was
219. 7:50the sort of part of the the the deal.
220. 7:53It's a privilege to work on stuff, but
221. 7:54you don't necessarily own it.
222. 7:56>> When you're done with the game, does it
223. 7:58always feel like a goodbye? Like when
224. 7:59you say when you're done with uh Red
225. 8:02Dead 2 is like you're saying goodbye to
226. 8:04Arthur, like the characters you created,
227. 8:06you're walking away.
228. 8:07>> You kind of are saying goodbye to Arthur
229. 8:09in the end of the game, even before the
230. 8:10end of the game. Um, yeah, I think
231. 8:13you've got, you know, I've been with
232. 8:14them for seven, eight years and and you
233. 8:16have to kind of let it go or you can't
234. 8:18go on to the next one.
235. 8:19>> Yeah.
236. 8:19>> So, it was always this thing of of okay,
237. 8:21that's done. And sometimes people would
238. 8:22ask me questions and I about older games
239. 8:26>> and certainly when I was in the middle
240. 8:27of making new ones in the I couldn't
241. 8:28really necessarily even remember. I've
242. 8:30got a pretty good memory normally
243. 8:31because you kind of have to let it go.
244. 8:33So I it's it's not it's you're so
245. 8:36immersed in it and thinking about it and
246. 8:38certainly in that last period the last
247. 8:40few months you're really really immersed
248. 8:41in every little nuance and every little
249. 8:43detail all of the time and then you're
250. 8:45just not thinking about it in the same
251. 8:46way.
252. 8:46>> Yeah. It's funny from the player
253. 8:48perspective it feels like an old friend
254. 8:51that I miss whether it's John or Arthur
255. 8:53or Nico. It's a real goodbye. That's
256. 8:56there's a real sadness to finishing a
257. 8:57video game. like so legitimately a sad
258. 9:01exper not just because the story
259. 9:03>> is sad or
260. 9:04>> because you've been with them so long.
261. 9:06>> Yeah. And it's a real goodbye to close
262. 9:09it. There's that feeling when you're
263. 9:10sort of close the video game
264. 9:14>> and it's I mean it's like saying goodbye
265. 9:16to a friend.
266. 9:18>> That's when you finish a book you love.
267. 9:20>> It's the same feeling. And I think that
268. 9:22was something that we really in the
269. 9:24early days of of Rockstar really aspired
270. 9:27to have that where people would have
271. 9:29that. It wasn't just the mania of of
272. 9:31clearing a level, but the feeling of
273. 9:33saying goodbye to characters, you know,
274. 9:35I think that was something we really
275. 9:38wanted to achieve in games that we
276. 9:39didn't know was even possible. So to
277. 9:41hear people say that is incredibly
278. 9:43rewarding.
279. 9:44>> Yeah. The end of On the Road by Carowak,
280. 9:46Fourlor Rags of Growing Old. I just
281. 9:48remember closing that thinking, what the
282. 9:50[ __ ] am I doing in this big world? It's
283. 9:52a melancholic feeling, but there's
284. 9:54nothing like that feeling. And you've
285. 9:55achieved that. It's so rare in video
286. 9:57games to be able to achieve that with
287. 9:58Red Dead. And for me it was Grand Theft
288. 10:00Auto 4 with Nico.