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Greg Lukianoff on the Battle for Free Speech on College Campuses — Transcript

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0:00thank you so much for showing up today
0:01we're we're really excited to have uh
0:03GRE Lana talking about the Battle for
0:05free speech on college campuses I think
0:07this talk really gets the heart of
0:08uncomfortable learning where you know at
0:10other colleges we wouldn't be able to
0:11have this program because of social
0:13honor codes or formal other formal
0:14structures that really prevent free
0:16speech and I think we're all trying to
0:17encourage a greater dialog ability to
0:19promote intellectual engagement and this
0:20talk is really getting at you know what
0:22are the structures that enable us to
0:23have those conversations and so we're
0:25really excited to to have Greg Greg
0:27speak with us tonight thank you
0:30[Applause]
0:36uh my name is Greg lukanov i'm the
0:38president of the foundation for
0:39individual rights and education I'm a uh
0:43specialized First Amendment lawyer um
0:45and I was a little bit weird um in my
0:48decision to go to law school in that I
0:50went specifically to do first amendment
0:52Free Speech law uh both my parents are
0:54immigrants I grew up in a household with
0:56a Russian father and a and a British mom
0:59both who had strong ideas about what you
1:01should and should not be allowed to say
1:03my mother believed you should never say
1:04anything impolite and my father would
1:06say politeness is a form of
1:09deception so it was actually pluralism
1:12um that got me into freedom of speech it
1:14was growing up in immigrant neighborhood
1:15that got me into freedom of speech uh
1:17because the one thing we could all agree
1:18on was there was something we learned
1:20from hearing each other out so this has
1:21been a passion of mine my entire life um
1:24and when I got to study of the law it
1:26did not let me
1:28down this is is uh one of my favorite um
1:32quotes uh from from First Amendment
1:34opinion this comes from a 1943 opinion
1:37um it was in the middle of World War II
1:39and the Supreme Court decided uh and
1:41this was not a popular decision uh that
1:44it was unconstitutional to uh to require
1:48uh kids to salute the flag and say the
1:50Pledge of
1:51Allegiance uh we were facing potential
1:54Extinction at the hands of of the Nazis
1:58and and the Japanese empire uh and and I
2:00mean and I mean that the what what
2:02people Miss sometimes is that
2:04intellectuals in the 1930s and 40s
2:07thought that American democracy was not
2:08long for this world and the the number
2:11of of countries that were still
2:12democracies as of 1941 were very few so
2:15there was sort of an intellectual um
2:17belief that that art system was not
2:19really long for this world and that
2:20these ideas like freedom of speech were
2:23quaint and cute and P and ultimately
2:26what's going to get us
2:28killed but that's one the reasons why I
2:30think of this is such a brave opinion
2:32because in the face of of of public uh a
2:35public desire to silence um unpatriotic
2:37children in this case it was Jehovah's
2:39witness's children who said that it was
2:41against their religion to force them to
2:44salute the flag the Supreme Court said
2:46no that's not who we are this is not uh
2:50and even if this is what the tougher
2:51guys are doing even if this is what the
2:53stalinist the notes are doing this is
2:55the last thing we give up and I love
2:57this quote because it's it's poetry but
3:00um and the most famous part of it is if
3:02there is any fix star in our
3:03constitutional constellation it is that
3:05no official higher Petty can prescribe
3:06what shall be Orthodox in politics
3:09nationalism religion or other matters of
3:11opinion or Force citizens to confess by
3:13word or act their faith therein if there
3:15are any circumstances which permit an
3:17exception they do not now occur to us
3:19that's some powerful in the middle
3:21of the war um and and but but I I really
3:24like the the clarifying power of the
3:26first line though freedom to differ is
3:28not limited to things that do not matter
3:30much that would be a mere Shadow of
3:32Freedom I like it because it's just so
3:35clear it just points out that um and I
3:37see this happen a lot on college
3:39campuses these days where um and for my
3:42entire career where it seems as if
3:44people are saying oh I believe in free
3:46speech unless we're talking about
3:48something really
3:49important and I think our society to a
3:51degree has has developed this idea so
3:55there's so many things that are hopeful
3:56about the Barnett opinion um one of them
3:59is that as of 1925 the First Amendment
4:02starts getting interpreted in a strong
4:03way under Oliver wend Holmes and Louis
4:05brandise this is really the beginning
4:07and I can explain why it took until 1925
4:09but that's a longer discussion right
4:11there um but in my opinion this was the
4:15road to progress this this was a a an
4:17early step on the road to a proper
4:20understanding of what of what freedom of
4:21speech should have meant all along or
4:22what the first amendment should have met
4:24all along and it wasn't too long before
4:26this rationale was extended to
4:29University
4:30now talk about strong
4:32language this is a case from the redcare
4:35from the 1950s called SZ V New Hampshire
4:38um and it's about it's among a series of
4:40cases over over about two decades
4:42involving um what can the state do to
4:45compel or root out communist
4:47sympathizers within the
4:49academy and the Supreme Court put some
4:51put some serious roadblocks in the way
4:53and but but they said it uh they put it
4:56in what I consider both common sense and
4:59both poetic language teachers and
5:01students must always remain free to
5:03inquire to study and to evaluate to gain
5:07new maturity and understanding otherwise
5:09our civilization will stagnate and
5:13die strong language but also what I
5:16think is at stake I think that the uh
5:18what the Supreme Court sees and what I
5:20see is that the Vitality of a Nation
5:22depends on its ability to speak within
5:24itself to be Innovative to question
5:26itself to be constructive and the
5:28Supreme Court uh understood that and
5:30articulated in such beautiful uh Pros in
5:33in the squeezy
5:35opinion so I'm about to show you the
5:38most offensive slide I'm going to show
5:40all
5:45night so by the 1970s freedom of speech
5:49was so well established on college
5:51campuses that when a um this is a a
5:56student named Barbara papish she was uh
5:59again again there's going to be some
6:00strong language on this occasionally um
6:01she was part of a group called up
6:03against the wall
6:04a very 1960s radical group
6:08and according to papish Barbara papish
6:11her group was uh beaten up by police
6:15officers but then those police officers
6:18were acquitted and in response to this
6:20she ran a cartoon of police officers
6:23raping the Statue of
6:25Liberty strong stuff but when it got in
6:28front of the Supreme Court they the idea
6:31that was offensive was met with the
6:33exact right response it was supposed to
6:35be
6:36offensive we're fighting this out that's
6:39the whole point I was actually trying to
6:41anger them that was the entire point
6:44this is a very a deadly serious argument
6:47about police brutality about the
6:48treatment of denters I don't have to
6:50play nice in it and the opinion there
6:55was no problem figuring out that freedom
6:58that this speech was protected on
6:59college campuses and I got to tell you
7:02if you tried to run this cartoon on the
7:03modern campus today you'd be really
7:06risking
7:07it and what's amazing is this is still
7:10good law this is still the controlling
7:12law of the land that even this is of
7:13course protected it's actually protected
7:15because it's
7:17offensive now this is what I deal with
7:19on a more daily
7:21basis and we're just talking about this
7:23case is anybody familiar with this book
7:30well obviously it's called Notre Dame
7:31versus the
7:33clan it's about the defeat of the clan
7:36when they marched on Notre Dame in 1924
7:38sometimes people forget that the clan
7:39was pretty sort of equal opportunity and
7:41its contempt for different PE people and
7:43they also hated Catholics so the clan
7:46tried to Mark march on Notre Dame in
7:481924 and this book celebrates the fact
7:51that Notre Dame students got together
7:53and defeated them in a street fight it
7:56celebrates that now the fact that it's
7:58an anti-racist book doesn't make it any
8:00more or less protected it just makes
8:02what happens next that much more
8:06ironic because a employee at Indiana
8:09University Purdue University
8:11Indianapolis saw this book saw the saw
8:14the uh r on the cover and by the way
8:16that's that's an actual picture of the
8:18rally when they marched on Notre Dame um
8:21and the burning crosses the employee was
8:24offended they did not bother talking to
8:26the student who was reading the book by
8:28the way this book is available at the
8:30IUPUI uh student Library um that's uh he
8:34was found guilty of racial harassment
8:36without a
8:37hearing and as bad as that is and
8:40obviously if you look at papish and look
8:42at the law this is obviously protected
8:43speech you can read offensive books on
8:45campus actually you're kind of supposed
8:48to read uh read challenging books on
8:51campus um but as bad as this case is and
8:54the fact that it took the the combined
8:56effort of fire the ACLU and the Wall
8:58Street Journal to to get this University
9:00to back down that's terrible this is
9:04again this is not a close call in terms
9:05of the law but what's worse about it and
9:08what scares me more than anything else
9:10is that when he went to go talk to
9:12professors about whether or not he
9:13should stand up for his rights and his
9:15clearly established First Amendment
9:16rights they said don't
9:19bother what scares me is that students
9:22did not come to this students defense a
9:24previous generation of students hearing
9:26that someone was uh found guilty of
9:28reading a book in public would have
9:30literally
9:32rioted and this bleeds out in really
9:34peculiar ways now I think the standard
9:37argument that people want to hear about
9:39what what's happened to our campuses
9:41depending on you know you know your
9:42political point of view is sometimes
9:44people just want the it's just political
9:46correctness run a muck it's just group
9:48think it's just too many people who
9:49agree with each other wanting to enforce
9:51their point of view that's not all
9:53that's happening a big chunk of what's
9:56going on on campuses is the the
9:58unleashing of of hordes of
10:00Administrators the uh and this is to put
10:03this in perspective W uh within your own
10:05lifetimes the number in 2005 the uh
10:09hopefully n of you younger than
10:11nine within your own lifetime the number
10:13of Administrators on college campuses a
10:16full-time administrators outstrip the
10:18number of full-time professors as of
10:212005 and that's on average for schools
10:22all over the country and that trend line
10:25has you know only gotten worse over the
10:27years uh universities are increasingly
10:29administr Administration heavy and and
10:32what do they do they regulate
10:35practically everything and that's how
10:36you end up with codes like this this is
10:40University of
10:41Cincinnati um and they were telling
10:43students for uh by the time we got
10:46involved for years we first brought this
10:49to their attention back way back in
10:512007 that they had what they called a
10:53free speech Zone on campus um it was .1%
10:57of Campus it was actually it's that
10:59little end of the point on the push pin
11:01the the green push pin itself is
11:03actually about 20 times bigger than the
11:05actual Free Speech Zone and not only did
11:08they limit free speech and protests and
11:09handing out newspapers on campus to that
11:11tiny little area you had to get 10 days
11:14Advanced permission to even use that
11:16little tiny
11:17area so we're tell we're being nice
11:20we're telling the university for years
11:21that this is unconstitutional and we're
11:23getting contemptuous letters back saying
11:25nuh-uh no it's not which is of course
11:27laughable because it it's so clearly is
11:30so we worked with some students and they
11:33uh tried to get a ballot initiative
11:35signed on campus um a ballot initiative
11:37that had to be signed within a couple
11:39days so they wanted to get it signed
11:41they didn't want to be limited to the
11:42ridiculous dinky little Free Speech Zone
11:44they knew they didn't have to be and
11:46they asked and they told they put the
11:48university on notice about this they
11:50said listen we're going to petition our
11:52government for addressive grievances um
11:55we want to do this as free people uh
11:57what do you say about that their
12:00response was that if they if these
12:02students were seen walking around campus
12:05they would be arrested for
12:08trespass now as bad as this case is
12:10again what horrifies me about it more
12:12than this happening and this pisses me
12:14off plenty don't get me wrong is the
12:17fact that a state lawyer that the
12:21university general counsel thought it
12:22was a good idea that when the university
12:24got sued for this that it was good to
12:26defend this code in court I don't
12:30understand what the motivation is for a
12:31ferally paid lawyer to demand that 99.9%
12:35of public campuses be non-free speech
12:38zones but and these things are not
12:40uncommon um we oh by the way when this
12:43was when this got in front of a judge he
12:45you know he did a spit take basically
12:47this got defeated as as soon as it got
12:49in front of in front of a court and we'd
12:51been telling them that for years so this
12:53again not a close
12:56call and I want to point out that this
12:58stuff is happening today this is
13:00happening right now um Modesto Junior
13:03College anybody familiar with this
13:06case Modesto Junior College in Modesto
13:09California um a student thought his
13:11administration was so heavy-handed was
13:14so out of control that he basically bet
13:17himself that he couldn't even hand out
13:19copies of the
13:20Constitution on Constitution Day which
13:23is September
13:2417th and not 10 minutes before he went
13:27out to try to hand out copies of the
13:30constitution on campus to celebrate
13:32Constitution Day in the open part of
13:34campus in the open part of the Quad a
13:36police officer a campus police officer
13:38not not not a real police officer um
13:41comes up to him and says that he can't
13:43that he has to be a registered student
13:44group that he has to go to the tiny
13:46little Free Speech Zone that he needs
13:47Advanced State permission in order to
13:49hand out constitutions on Constitution
13:51Day so he's a nice kid so he goes and
13:53talks to a member of the clerical staff
13:56um seen there and she immediately starts
13:58going through um this huge folder to
14:01figure out if he if he's allowed to and
14:04when he can use the tiny little Free
14:05Speech Zone on campus turns out he can't
14:08hand out constitutions on Constitution
14:10Day because it's already booked um but
14:13he can maybe in a couple days and if
14:15he's not available during that narrow
14:17time frame he could probably hand them
14:18out sometime in
14:20October and again this school was
14:23willing to go to court to defend their
14:25right to so badly misinterpret the First
14:27Amendment something's gone very wrong
14:32here and just to really bring the point
14:34home it's not like they're winning these
14:38cases this is just a selection of the
14:40cases uh universities have lost over the
14:42years defending campus speech codes and
14:44speech zones are a kind of speech code
14:47uh ridiculous on over Brad uh
14:49restrictions on freedom of speech uh
14:51that that have been uh that have come
14:53into Vogue since the 1980s every single
14:56time they are challenged they are
14:57defeated they were defeated first at
14:59University of Michigan there I'm going
15:01to talk about when they were defeated at
15:02University of Connecticut they were
15:03defeated at my M moer Stanford uh law
15:06school even though it's a private school
15:07there was a state law that actually
15:09imposed First Amendment standards on
15:11Stanford and other non-sectarian schools
15:13in California and and just again and
15:16again every single time these are
15:17challenged they are defeated yet
15:20nonetheless they remain on campus and
15:23they Remain the rule not the exception
15:26we have a full-time lawyer on staff
15:29evaluates the codes for at this point
15:31around 430 colleges around the country
15:35um she's incredibly meticulous um I I
15:37can't think of anybody i' trust more to
15:39do this
15:41and this is what she found in our most
15:43recent study that 58.6% of universities
15:47we evaluate maintain what we call Red
15:50Light speech codes um that is codes that
15:53would be you know to put it simply are
15:55laughably unconstitutional now
15:57interestingly now I usually wait for
15:58this to come up in questions but just to
16:00review it really quickly private versus
16:02public colleges private colleges are
16:04bound by the First Amendment um they uh
16:07they're not allowed to have speech codes
16:09uh private colleges are not bound by the
16:11First Amendment they do not have to
16:13guarantee Free Speech rights but fired's
16:15position when it comes to private
16:16schools is if you do promise Free Speech
16:19rights which Williams does the
16:20overwhelming majority of of liberal arts
16:22colleges do you should deliver and you
16:24should get at least as much free speech
16:26at those colleges that you've been told
16:28you will get it as you do it at at a at
16:30a public college but what's interesting
16:32about this number this 58.6 is even
16:34though the legal obligations of public
16:36and private schools are very different
16:38it's around the same number for public
16:41and private schools it's around I think
16:42it's maybe 57% of of private schools um
16:46have have red light speech codes and
16:48okay so you saw how many times these
16:50codes have been de
16:51defeated um you've seen you know how
16:55much uh bad press they can generate for
16:58for
16:59universities uh and the fact that it's
17:01it's 58.6 is an absolute Scandal but
17:05keep in mind that that's an
17:07improvement when we first started doing
17:09the the survey it was 75% of
17:12universities uh retained red light
17:14speech codes and there's been lawsuit
17:16after lawsuit after um you know we have
17:18something called the speech code of the
17:19month program at fire and that's can be
17:23very embarrassing because universities
17:25have codes like
17:27this I I picked this one just because
17:29it's just
17:30so so
17:32raw no student shall offend anyone on
17:36University or operated
17:38property now it's just so pure it's just
17:41saying you you have a right not to be
17:43offended if you offend somebody you're
17:45guilty and what scares me is I feel like
17:47you more than a generation of students
17:50have grown up with such ridiculous codes
17:51in K through 12 that they look at this
17:54and they go that doesn't sound that bad
17:56and then I have to remind them every
17:58single one of you have violated this
18:00code you do not want to leave it up to
18:03administrators to to assumably have you
18:06all guilty and then just leave it up to
18:08their good graces to not find you guilty
18:10that that is misplaced trust that's not
18:12the way power Dynamic should work and
18:14again these kind of codes laughed out of
18:17court you cannot say that you can't
18:18offend anybody that is considered both
18:20vague and over Brad that will not stand
18:22a second in a court of law but this
18:25one's my favorite
18:27one because it says so many different
18:30things about uh about speech codes so
18:33way back in the Heyday the early Heyday
18:36of speech codes say like Circa
18:381990 uh University of Connecticut passes
18:41a speech code that includes a ban on
18:44derogatory
18:45names inconsiderate jokes and
18:48inappropriately directed
18:51laughter vague broad every single one of
18:54you have violated this code at some
18:56point or another at least as far as
18:58power is concerned
19:00and this was defeated in a at University
19:02of Connecticut in a court of law in
19:051991 this was it was also laughed at in
19:08the local newspapers it was laughed at
19:10nationally maybe it was inappropriately
19:11directed as far as they were
19:13concerned but it was defeated and and
19:17ignominiously so but
19:20nonetheless it was
19:23resuscitated in its full text by Drexel
19:26University N9 years later and and and we
19:29only defeated it in 2006 so the only way
19:32this University could have found out
19:33about this code to my knowledge would be
19:35reading about this ridiculous code that
19:37got defe defeated at University of
19:38Connecticut and then saying to
19:40themselves hey that sounds like a great
19:41idea let's pass that at
19:44Drexel so we had to defeat this defeat
19:47this code again watch watch where you
19:51laugh and so this gets me to sort of
19:53like one of the one of the deeper points
19:55of the book now I've been doing this for
19:58a long time and when I and and as I said
20:00I went to law school specifically to do
20:02first amendment law and free speech is a
20:04is a passion of mine I think it's uh
20:06necessary to a thriving democracy I
20:09think it's necessary to clear and cogent
20:11thinking I think it's necessary to
20:13Innovative thinking um and I think it's
20:15uh you know one of the great Innovations
20:18um that we've come up with in human
20:19history for for things including uh
20:22peace and
20:23pluralism but when I first started
20:25writing the writing the book on learning
20:26Liberty uh campus censorship in the end
20:28of American debate um I got some
20:31questions that kind of disturbed me a
20:33little bit one of my editors um who was
20:36amazed at all the horrifying cases he'd
20:38seen from fire asked me yeah okay you
20:41know people get in trouble for silly
20:43things on college campuses yeah and some
20:45of them are pretty serious cases you
20:46know someone can have their career
20:47ruined in some cases other times they're
20:49slap on the wrist and so what if their
20:51free speech rights to violated why does
20:54this
20:55matter I found that a kind of chilling
20:57question because for for a previous
20:59generation there was absolutely no doubt
21:00that this mattered stagnate and die is
21:03not weak
21:05language but I started looking into um
21:08how this affects students how this
21:09climate affects students and while I was
21:12working on the um while I was working on
21:15the book this huge study comes
21:19out that asked students um it's the
21:22American Association of colleges and
21:24universities they asked this incredibly
21:27soft question and this is the kind of
21:29question that you ask in order to get
21:32100% of of people coming saying there's
21:34no nothing to see here there's no
21:35problem this is the way you were to
21:37question if you want to get 100% good
21:39answers is it safe to hold unpopular
21:42positions on your
21:44campus if you really wanted to know the
21:47answer to that is it safe to challenge
21:48people on controversial issues is it
21:50safe to challenge your professors is it
21:52safe to engage in thought
21:53experimentation is it safe to enjoy to
21:56engage in Devil's advocacy you know the
21:58things that are at the heart of
21:59meaningful serious discussion but
22:02instead they worded it is it safe to
22:03merely hold unpopular positions on your
22:05campus this is the kind of question that
22:07you would expect 100% of students to
22:09come back and say well sure it's safe to
22:11hold them and I think that's what the
22:13ACU is expected but they got a little
22:16bit of a
22:17surprise first year only 40% of for of
22:20first year students strongly agree with
22:22the statement that it is safe to merely
22:24hold unpopular points of view on campus
22:26and then look what happens every single
22:29year they're there it gets
22:32worse by the time they're freshman uh By
22:35the time they're seniors it's only 30%
22:37of students and guess who's the most
22:39pessimistic about whether or not it's
22:41safe to hold unpopular positions on
22:45campus
22:47faculty yeah half almost half of of the
22:50worst number 16 points only 16.7% of
22:53Faculty strongly agree with the
22:54statement that it is safe to hold
22:56unpopular points of view on campus
22:58something wrong has happened here and
22:59I'm not saying this is just the result
23:02of speech codes um but I do think that
23:04they're I do think they're
23:06related and this is one of the reasons
23:09why I think you probably haven't heard
23:10that much about this problem um and why
23:13it's not viewed as much as a problem
23:15because as I go on to campuses I think
23:17that the
23:19um the reimagining of free speech as not
23:23being something that is necessary to
23:24protect the rights of minorities the
23:26rights of people who who aren't
23:28otherwise heard which is why you need it
23:31by the way um in a democracy just some
23:35basic stuff that needs sometimes needs
23:37to be said in a democracy the majority
23:39voice is protected by the vote you don't
23:42need a separate protection of freedom of
23:44speech to protect the voice of the
23:45majority by definition the First
23:48Amendment exists to to protect the V the
23:50voices of minorities the voices of of
23:52the people who aren't in the
23:53majority um but somewhere in the uh and
23:57there are certain philosophers that you
23:58could point to for this but I think it
23:59was also just a um a trend that I I
24:03could talk talk year off about that I
24:05call sort of problems of comfort and
24:07sort of working towards the
24:08postmaterialist society in the
24:101970s um that you end up with this sort
24:12of flipping on its head that um free
24:15speech is not enough we actually have to
24:18um H practice what Herbert maruz called
24:20repressive tolerance in order to um
24:23really have this beautiful Utopia that
24:25we're all hopefully heading towards I
24:27think that's inedibly naive and
24:29wrong-headed and dangerous but uh but I
24:32do think it's had some success and I
24:33think that really what universities do a
24:35lot of is they focus a lot on that one
24:37time that you dislike what someone says
24:40and completely ignore the 10,000 times
24:42every freaking day that you actually
24:44benefit from freedom of speech whether
24:45it's through Innovations or just knowing
24:47what people actually think but I think
24:49they've been pretty successful in this
24:51sort of discrediting of freedom of
24:52speech um among the
24:55citizenry and so that was a theory and
24:59uh definitely this is not definitive
25:00evidence here but just this past summer
25:03the First Amendment Center um which does
25:05this survey every year asked uh citizens
25:08this question does the First Amendment
25:10go too
25:11far and last year was the worst year
25:14they they'd had since
25:16911 uh 34% of Americans uh huge Spike up
25:21um uh believe that the First Amendment
25:23goes too far now interestingly this
25:25doesn't actually line up sometimes
25:26people bring up citizens united this
25:28doesn't actually line up very well with
25:30citizens united what it does line up
25:32with is the Boston bombing which scares
25:35me even more because if you've convinced
25:36people that the reason why people are
25:38blowing up car bombs is because of
25:40freedom of speech you're not learning
25:42that the that actually freedom of speech
25:43was one of the greatest Innovations for
25:45peace the whole idea of freedom of
25:46speech is that you argue it out you
25:48don't blow up things and you don't kill
25:50people over their their differences of
25:52opinion so but this is even worse than
25:55it looks when you tease it out it's as I
25:59said for the entire sample size it's
26:0234% but if you're if you tease it out
26:04according to age groups people over the
26:06age of 60 none of them think that
26:09herment goes too far practically um in
26:12the in the middle-age groups it gets a
26:14little bit uh a little bit more
26:16pessimistic um as you get closer to 30
26:18but when you get to the ages of 18 to 30
26:2347% of people believe uh believe it was
26:26the it was the worst age group of any
26:27age group group and to me this is
26:29incredibly ironic because 18 to 30y olds
26:32benefit from freedom of speech they um
26:35more than anybody they uh often times
26:37they enjoy the video games that are
26:39protected by it they enjoy the comedians
26:40that are protected by it they enjoy the
26:41music that's protected by it and to
26:43actually have pulled this uh this one
26:45over on students that actually free
26:46speech is they're not that interested on
26:49I think is a great uh it's a great
26:50generational uh
26:53bamboozlement so one of the reasons why
26:56I think that you don't why people don't
26:58hear as much about these problems as
26:59they should is because it's really
27:02really easy to never need Fire's help uh
27:05fire defends uh if I didn't explain it
27:07entirely fire defense students and
27:08faculty on campuses when they're in
27:10trouble for free speech or do process
27:12violations but there are four things you
27:14can do to never need our
27:18help don't talk to people you disagree
27:21with don't disagree with faculty members
27:24whose egos can't take
27:25it join ideological grp groups that
27:28reflect what you believed in high school
27:31and generally avoid controversial topics
27:33in the first
27:34place wonderful you do th you follow you
27:37follow those four things and you're not
27:38going to get in trouble but there's
27:40something very wrong with
27:42that if that's what you're doing why do
27:44we have universities in the first place
27:46and also that's already what our entire
27:49Society is already doing there's a
27:52wonderful book called The Big sort that
27:54talks about how increasingly not only
27:56are we do we listen to Fox News or MSNBC
27:59or only MPR or or go to the websites
28:02that reflect what we already believe we
28:04increasingly live in neighborhoods that
28:06look exactly like us in terms of
28:07ideology and it's getting worse it's
28:09getting more dramatic right down to the
28:11actual County and neighborhood and block
28:13of your street that were increasingly um
28:17uh sort of glomming together in
28:19like-minded clicks so this is a problem
28:21that I don't think universities caused
28:23it is actually um but at the same time
28:25it's a problem that universities could
28:27really be help helping they could really
28:29be helping us talk across lines of
28:31political difference but they are
28:33nowhere near solving that problem if you
28:36can get in trouble for having the wrong
28:39debate or the wrong opinion on a college
28:41campus they're doing the exact opposite
28:43they're reinforcing this and there was
28:45one last piece of data that I found that
28:47I really want to to get more
28:49on is that there is an inverse
28:52correlation between the amount of
28:53Education you have and the number of
28:55political disagreements that you have in
28:57an average
28:58month now let me tease that out and it
29:02it it's a pretty straight line that if
29:03you have a high school education you
29:05have more political disagreements than
29:07someone who has a college education and
29:10you if you have a college education you
29:12have more political disagreements than
29:13someone who has a masters and the person
29:15who has the fewest put disagreements in
29:17a month is someone who has their
29:20PHD now there's a human nature aspect to
29:23this where kind of like yeah okay you're
29:24more upwardly mobile you can you can
29:26live in communities and and you'll
29:28choose communities that share your
29:29values and that's a nice way of saying
29:32you choose communities that look a lot
29:33more like you that sound a lot more like
29:35you and that's understandable but I
29:37think that one one of the cultural fixes
29:39to this is that I don't think you should
29:41ever be allowed to call yourself
29:43educated or an intellectual unless you
29:45see it as a duty to seek out the
29:47intelligent person with whom you
29:50disagree that used to be considered the
29:52defining aspect of what it meant to be
29:54an educated person it should become so
29:56again when you realize that the person
29:58you're talking to only listens to people
30:00that they agree with you should probably
30:02find someone else to talk to or try to
30:04convince them that they need to talk to
30:05more people um this Echo chamber effect
30:07is poisonous and it's one of these
30:09things in the uh uh social science as
30:12far as things that that experiment after
30:14experiment they do is that when you get
30:15like-minded people together and have
30:17them only talk to other like-minded
30:18people they tend to become a lot more
30:20radical in what they believe and they
30:22start adopting really bizarre and in
30:24some cases hateful opinions of the
30:25people who disagree with them um and
30:28it's and universi should not be
30:29contributing to this negative
30:31intellectual
30:33cycle so um here before I get to
30:36questions I want to give you guys some
30:37homework um since I'm on
30:40campus um I had there there's going to
30:43be three copies of the book um as long
30:45as you promise to read it that the um uh
30:47they're not here right now um but as
30:50long as people promise to read it you
30:52know there there's three copies three
30:53copies of the book that free to check
30:55out but also if you want to buy it I'll
30:58go to fire once again that the name of
31:00that book is unlearning Liberty campus
31:02censorship and the end of American
31:03debate um join fire student Network um
31:07there's going to be we're going to be
31:09asking people to sign up for it there's
31:10a t-shirts involved um you got a free
31:14fire t-shirt and check out your schools
31:16policies at the fire.org I know Williams
31:18is on there I'm pretty sure it's a red
31:20light um I haven't reviewed their code
31:23Williams yellow Williams yellow oh good
31:26sorry okay congratulations yellow is
31:28actually pretty good
31:30thanks um but here's the harder part
31:33make it a lifelong Habit to seek out
31:35smart people with whom you
31:37disagree by by the fact that you that
31:39this uh lecture series was put together
31:41uh that's you know shows some evidence
31:43that you already believe that but also
31:46note the censorship Instinct the desire
31:48to grandstand and the ease with which
31:50individuals claim offense there's been a
31:53lot of great articles just in the past
31:55particularly after the coar thing the
31:56cancel coar thing
31:58but you know uh Kean Peele and Patton
32:00Oswald um
32:02and and other comedians coming out
32:05saying I'm calling I'm I'm I'm calling
32:07BS on this you're not actually offended
32:10people are are getting a little bit too
32:12they're enjoying the spotlight a little
32:14bit too much and the power that claiming
32:16offense um at the lowest possible
32:18setting can gain them and it's making us
32:21unbearable as a
32:23society um the the idea of getting this
32:25sort of oldfashioned idea of here the
32:27person out and honestly it's okay to say
32:31that I don't really think you're really
32:32that upset has to be something that's
32:34okay to say again um because in some
32:36cases honestly Bill Mah wrote a great
32:38piece called um can we have a non like a
32:41I'm not offended day
32:43nationally um and it was it's funny
32:45because it came out of a situation where
32:48um Rush limbo did say something
32:50offensive he he called Sandra fluca
32:53and then he apologized for it but then
32:55uh pundits on the right went after Bill
32:58Maher for saying equally horrible things
33:00if not more horrible things about Sarah
33:02Palin but it really read it met it silly
33:05Crescendo when at a fundraiser Robert
33:09dairo um made a joke about kalista
33:12genrich um and he mentioned her and he
33:14said but really people are we are we
33:17really ready for a white first
33:19lady it's a cute joke and N gingr went
33:24on air demanding that that uh um that he
33:27thatt dairo apologized for that highly
33:29offensive joke and that was that was
33:32what the cause of Bill Mah writing this
33:34he was just like no no nobody means this
33:36this is play acting this is just this is
33:38ridiculous but one things that he didn't
33:40point out in that in that is I do think
33:42that a lot of these bad rhetorical
33:45habits get particularly sharpened on
33:47campuses um I don't think there's
33:49anywhere easy where where people are
33:50more easily offended than on the modern
33:52college
33:53campus um the next one is ask yourself
33:56if you're reducing people with whom you
33:58disagree with to characters of societal
34:00evil I see this happen on campuses all
34:02the time and remember that arguments
34:05that make us the most uncomfortable are
34:07often the ones we most badly need to
34:09have anybody who's ever been in a
34:11romantic relationship has certainly
34:12learned this
34:14one so in
34:17conclusion um that's a that's my contact
34:19information as Alan Charles Kors once
34:22put it that a nation that does not
34:24educate in Liberty will not endure in
34:26Liberty and will not even even know when
34:28it's
34:29lost um I'm happy to take
34:36questions so like I think one of the the
34:39points that's that's most scary about
34:42all this is that like at a school at a
34:45school like Williams where you have a a
34:47student body that's that's here to learn
34:49um but is also like very I think happy
34:51to to get through with a great education
34:53four years um kind of keep heads down
34:56and then go off and the work workplace
34:58how how do you compel people I mean how
35:00do you how do you emphasize the
35:03importance of of all this it's it it's
35:06really hard because and I do honestly
35:08think that when you're paying the
35:09obscene amount of $60,000 a year you
35:12know for some of these places I don't
35:13know probably Williams is somewhere
35:15around there um that I think that does
35:18create a little bit more of a keep your
35:19head down kind of mentality because you
35:21got a lot at
35:22stake um and that's one of the reasons
35:24why I think universities have fallen
35:26down so badly it really shouldn't be
35:28just on you guys um I think Oxford style
35:31debates should be part of orientation
35:33and they and they shouldn't be about you
35:35know like the the the um you know the
35:38the the the the the food plan or the or
35:41or recycling on campus they should be
35:43about you know global warming and the
35:45existence of God like you should have
35:48some serious debates when you when you
35:50when you get to campus um but
35:52universities have gone really very much
35:54the other direction and there's you know
35:56there's there's some very there there
35:58are some fairly commendable instincts
36:01behind it in some cases you know wanting
36:02to make a place welcoming and nice and
36:04all this kind of stuff but I won't but I
36:06do get annoyed sometimes when people
36:07just talk about the commendable aspects
36:09of it it's not just commendable it's
36:11also give me your money get through the
36:13four years um I I don't get paid the
36:17student loans unless you actually make
36:18it through all the way um or you can
36:20make it through three years and I still
36:21get just you just about as much um there
36:23is there is a little bit of of um of
36:26sort of uh you give us give us your
36:28check uh and the quality of Education
36:32the um the amount of critical thinking
36:34skills that are actually produced on
36:35college campuses the biggest study um
36:37called academic lead drift that's been
36:38done about this showed miserable results
36:42and I talk about that in the book as
36:43well and one of them is since every
36:45University there's not a lot that every
36:47University agrees on that's that's part
36:49of their goal but one of them is that
36:51they need to develop uh to help students
36:52develop critical thinking skills and
36:55critical thinking skill and so the and
36:57it's it's nice that it's very Universal
36:59um but in the entire scope of this study
37:03um of academically a drift only
37:05something like 45% of students showed no
37:07development of improvement in critical
37:10thinking skills over the entire scope of
37:12the study now and think about that that
37:16we're talking about 18 to uh in let go
37:18for the study 18 to 20 year olds a
37:20normal 18 to 20-year-olds working at a
37:22Denny's would be expected to show some
37:25improvement in critical thinking skills
37:26during that time time um and the idea
37:28that 40 45% of them what were showed
37:31none is means that really they're it
37:33sounds more like that you'd have to hold
37:34people back in order to in order to
37:37produce such dismal results but one of
37:39the most telling things in that study
37:41was the fact that students didn't didn't
37:43know and this is part of what they're
37:44evaluated on how to make what was
37:46referred to as make or break an argument
37:48which means you're given a proposition
37:51okay argue the side you like okay they
37:53could do that argue the side you don't
37:54like they couldn't do
37:56that and to me that's partially because
37:59we've encouraged an environment where
38:00people don't have these fun
38:01disagreements where they don't actually
38:02get to the meaty stuff and a lot of that
38:04education actually took place in the
38:06dormatory sometimes it could be a little
38:07ugly sometimes it could be a little rude
38:09but it was it could be fun and it could
38:11be productive but when you create an
38:12environment where you can actually get
38:13in trouble for engaging in that then
38:15you're actually you're undermining one
38:17of the one of the ways that um you you
38:19help produce critical thinking skills so
38:21I mean to me you know like having an
38:23Oxford style debate at the very
38:25beginning of of of college um I think
38:28would would help a lot but universities
38:29are so far away from wanting to do that
38:31they are so far away from wanting to do
38:33that that that would not be peace and
38:34quiet on their watch and some
38:36administrators that's what they
38:38want um sure um I remember after Co be
38:44thing I read an article by some
38:45columnists in the some some Chicago
38:48newspaper I think he was basically he he
38:51wrote sort of on the line like I am like
38:53very very offended like I am very very
38:56like uh this is something that's like a
38:58huge problem in society should not be
39:00able help say things like this and and I
39:03and I was like reading more about him as
39:05an author and he he said he was a follow
39:07of this uh of a I don't know if it's
39:10like a thought like a well-known thought
39:12process but it was called like radical
39:14empathy or like or like it's like
39:17radical empathy radical empathy I was
39:20trying I put them
39:22together but um uh it was sort of like
39:27like
39:27like people shouldn't tell me what I'm
39:29thinking and I actually extremely
39:31offended and I'm offended for like
39:32everybody in my like social group that
39:35was made a comment on right do you think
39:37that attitude is like dangerous or uh I
39:40think it's unhealthy let's put it that
39:42way um it's I I'm probably one of the
39:44only like First Amendment people who
39:46mentions any amount of
39:47Buddhism in his um in his speeches but I
39:50but I do think it's crucial because one
39:53of the noble truths of Buddhism um is
39:55that life is pain and one of the great
39:58secrets of the noble truth that life is
40:00pain is that as soon as you actually
40:01recognize that life is pain life becomes
40:03a lot less
40:05painful and that's something that's I'm
40:07I'm an atheist I I make no bones about
40:09that either but I do study Buddhism and
40:10as far as actually useful knowledge that
40:12I that I've learned in my life um that
40:14has helped me tremendously I think it
40:17it's psychologically healthy to
40:19understand that um I think that it's
40:21helped a lot of people throughout their
40:23lives to understand wait a second this
40:25pain that I'm experiencing it's a common
40:26part of the human experience and it's
40:28normal and this is what we deal with
40:30every day so much so that there's a
40:31philosophy where the first truth is that
40:33life is pain if you create the
40:35expectation that life is not pain and
40:38that every time something painful
40:40happens to you it's got to be someone
40:41else's fault or something wrong and
40:42terrible is happen you are dooming that
40:45person to in my opinion what ultimately
40:48was a psychologically unhealthy State
40:50and there and and if that's actually the
40:52way you're teaching students to engage
40:54with the world there is no cave in which
40:56they can hide
40:57to get away from the get to get away
41:00from Pain and that's one of the reasons
41:01why I think you end up having this um
41:03the the offensiveness bar gets lower and
41:05lower and lower because when you when
41:07you make the uh the bar for uh what can
41:10be stopped because it's offensive be the
41:12key then people start realizing but that
41:14kind of hurts too and that kind of hurts
41:15too what you need to people to be able
41:17to say is that this is what we freedom
41:19of speech is what we did uh was an
41:21innovation that helped us replace actual
41:24violence and combat it's going to hurt
41:27sometimes and actually sometimes that
41:28pain is actually actually fairly good
41:30for you um but if you create the
41:31expectation that you uh that you can
41:33escape um from this world without um the
41:37the daily abrasions of everyday life and
41:38without hurt feelings you're saying that
41:40either you you're telling somebody that
41:43they should choose not to live um so I
41:45do think that there's something psych
41:46deeply psychologically unhealthy about
41:48it s I recently made a highly offensive
41:52post on our discussion board at the
41:54school and uh just as an abstract
41:56hypothetical how easy would it be to get
41:57that republished if I were to you know
41:59send some threats about about you guys
42:01and wars and stuff like
42:05that how it was taken out because
42:07someone found it disturbing uhuh well we
42:10don't so much legally threaten right um
42:13and it also it also it also depends on
42:16the speech it also depends on the Forum
42:18um you you know definitely kind of like
42:20you have greater for example if it's in
42:22a classroom a professor has greater
42:23ability to control it actually the Free
42:25Speech rights in that sense are and
42:27academic freedom largely attached to the
42:28ability of professors but if you don't
42:30mind my ask what what did you what did
42:32you it was a clearly ironic I was
42:34accused of a hate crime
42:36oh you shouldn't do that yeah no yeah it
42:38was a uh that was pretty surprising so I
42:41wrote a clearly uh ironic hate letter if
42:43I were to write this hate Crown against
42:45Africans uh and U this someone found
42:49this disturbing so it was taken down
42:51yeah yeah people I I mean parody and
42:54satire you do at your own risk these
42:55days um and how easy and when I talk
42:58about things that it's easy to get in
43:00trouble for um the parody and satire is
43:04right at the top of the list the problem
43:05is if anything sounds threatening the
43:07problem with the threats Doctrine is
43:08that it makes so much sense in that if
43:10someone could reasonably argue that they
43:12reasonably felt like you are actually
43:13threatening somebody then that actually
43:15counts as threats even in even in well
43:17established law now of course I'll give
43:19you an example of of one where this
43:21argument was stretched out of all
43:23recognition and it's happening right now
43:25we have a case at Bergen Community
43:27College where a professor put a picture
43:30of his daughter um like 5-year-old
43:33daughter doing like a yoga position um
43:36wearing a Game of Thrones t-shirt that's
43:39from Daenerys Targaryen and I forget
43:41what the full quote is but something
43:42like I will take my kingdom back with
43:44and and the final lines are with blood
43:46and
43:47fire universities are so hyper uh
43:51reactive to this stuff that um well and
43:53also in this case they're so such Lites
43:56a um an administrator got an email uh
44:00from Google+ that just he got any times
44:03um this professor put up pictures but
44:05thought it was an email to him saw blood
44:07and fire on the kid's t-shirt and
44:10immediately suspended the kit uh
44:12suspended the student sorry the
44:14professor um and now he's being sent to
44:17mandatory psychological counseling so
44:18like the the the these cases are you
44:21know suggested psychologic counseling
44:23for meat yet yeah well let stay touch
44:27let's put it that way um the uh we also
44:30had what case that involving a quote
44:31from the show Firefly it's the the the
44:34the the threats Doctrine has been bent
44:37out of all recognition on campuses and
44:40oh okay so like almost as ridiculous but
44:43a different uh but one that I always
44:45feel like should be called out another
44:46school in Ohio uh Sinclair College in
44:49Ohio told students that they couldn't
44:51have protest signs anywhere on
44:54campus um and so students were like okay
44:58they mean we can't have the sticks to
44:59hold the signs maybe they think we're
45:00going to poke each other's eyes out you
45:01know or something which is ridiculous to
45:03begin with but so they tried to comply
45:05so they got rid of the sticks and they
45:06held up posters they were told nope no
45:09holding up posters those are also signs
45:11Sher cor yeah and um and when we wrote
45:16the University president of Sinclair
45:17College he wrote back saying well you
45:20know Virginia Tech in
45:24911 yeah exactly and and it's just like
45:27and I I want like I I used to have him
45:29as part of my slideshow every time
45:31because I wanted I wanted everybody to
45:33know that someone invoked Virginia Tech
45:35and 911 in order to ban protest signs on
45:39campus it's amazing the stuff they'll
45:41pull out and and so and it it it would
45:44be considered Hysterical by by a
45:47previous generation but unfortunately
45:48it's fact these
45:51days Ben what's happened to to all the
45:53activists who used to be so vocal I mean
45:56where have they all gone what's happened
45:57to all the activists who used to be so
45:59vocal um definitely there are some old
46:01school ACLU people um who adore fire um
46:04n hentoff but Nat hentoff is like 88
46:07like we're doing a we're doing an
46:08interview with him we're going to be
46:09posting that fairly soon um freedom of
46:12speech uh uh is not the um hot sexy
46:16issue it once was on college campuses
46:18like in the in the 60s and 70s um and I
46:21think it's it partially comes from uh
46:24you know like I said a long period of of
46:27sort of portraying freedom of speech as
46:29actually being the bad guy now you know
46:31people will sort of the trump card that
46:33people will pick on freedom of against
46:35freedom of speech is that freedom of
46:36speech also protects racist speech um
46:40and that's true uh but what I think
46:42people don't quite get is that and where
46:45we went that we started going down the
46:47wrong path is we started evaluating what
46:50we think of we start evaluating speech
46:52on terms of how good or bad we think it
46:54is that's not the point the point is to
46:57know what people actually say and think
47:01um and so when people are saying we can
47:03uh uh that we're going to address racism
47:06or sexism by making it illegal to
47:09express those opinions on campus I mean
47:11first of all I think that's hopelessly
47:13naive um but it also creates two
47:15different kinds of distortions one
47:18Distortion is that it uh can uh lead to
47:22leaders saying look I've solved racism
47:24because I've made it illegal sort of
47:26this Pang iian kind of kind of idea that
47:28basically you can fix something just by
47:30saying no um you can't do that anymore
47:33the second one which I actually think is
47:35more prevalent on college campuses is
47:37you can and there's a great book by
47:38African-American scholar John L Jackson
47:41um called racial paranoia that talks
47:43about how these kind of codes can
47:45actually encourage people to believe
47:47that that people are are much worse than
47:50they actually are that essentially we
47:52need these codes because this community
47:54is so racist that without them anytime
47:56someone left the room you they would
47:58just be filled with racist
48:00vitriol and I think that both
48:02distortions happen but I think when you
48:03actually let people talk even when they
48:05say horrible things now here's here
48:07here's the thing it's really valuable to
48:09know if someone in in your class is a
48:13racist it's really valuable as as as my
48:16as my friend as fire founder um Harvey
48:19silverglade who's Jewish would say it's
48:20like I kind of want to know if there's
48:22Nazis in the
48:23room this is Val this is important
48:26information it's important figure out
48:27why they believe it it helps you address
48:29it and when you actually and and I also
48:31have you know I'm more when it comes to
48:33all the the different spectrums a little
48:34bit more of a populist than an elitist
48:36actually sorry I'm way more of a
48:37populist than an elitist and I think
48:38that what you'll be surprised about is
48:40you know you know people will bring up
48:41Fred Phelps as like the the example of
48:44someone whose speech should never be
48:45allowed but if you actually ever went to
48:47one of his rallies the counter
48:50protesters outnumbered Fred Phelps like
48:52500 to1 um it wasn't that suddenly like
48:55people showed up and go you know this
48:57red Phelps guy has a great idea where do
48:59I sign up it was actually a a a a way of
49:03um of actually to a degree brought
49:05people who totally disagreed on
49:06different issues together but it also
49:08showed that you know we can to we can be
49:10trusted with uh with freedom of speech
49:13so I think we're thinking about it wrong
49:15I think we're thinking about freedom of
49:16speech wrong and I I can sort of pin
49:18down sort of the philosophical error
49:20that was made in it might as well say
49:23this the discovery of Truth was always
49:26considered to be sort of like the um the
49:29the main rationale for freedom of speech
49:30um it's not the only rationale I don't
49:32even think it's the main one but because
49:34this got into the hands of academics you
49:36start having this sort of
49:37reinterpretation of it being the
49:39discovery of objective truth the
49:41discovery of platonic truth the
49:42discovery of like the form of the square
49:44is essentially the only reason why we
49:45have freedom of speech but because we
49:48now know everything's subjective and
49:49Truth is unknowable and that's of course
49:51a debatable topic too then Free Speech
49:53doesn't matter because everything's
49:54equally subjective
49:56is like the dumbest argument I've ever
49:58heard and it's actually said with a
50:00straight face in paper after paper I
50:01read because they're confusing that what
50:03I call Big T truth and small T truth Big
50:05T truth the idea that kind of like the
50:07the potentially unknowable what is the
50:09form of beauty fine um and if that's all
50:12freedom of speech is good for then maybe
50:14maybe maybe you have a point but really
50:16what freedom of speech is good for is
50:17are these small teach trots and this is
50:19what its value was with the printing
50:20press this is how much rice costs in the
50:23other Village this is uh this means
50:25Andy's really at Jerry um this is how
50:28much it we're building a moat kind of
50:30like all of these like little these
50:32little tiny uh things like this this
50:34movie didn't do very well all all of
50:36these little tiny bit bits of
50:37information is why um the information uh
50:41why the explosions in Information
50:43Technology have such huge benefits it's
50:45not because we're all transmitting the
50:47objective truth to each other it's all
50:48that we just have a better understanding
50:49of the world in which we actually live
50:51and what people are uh saying and
50:53thinking and also frankly what's
50:55thinkable um so I have time for one more
50:59question
51:00um sir a couple years ago there was a
51:03woman named
51:05Daniel I remember what
51:08happened basically there was a CH
51:10meeting going on and a group of students
51:12who who wanted to say something
51:14basically came in and
51:17the um and she basically said like these
51:20people should be called order and like
51:22kind of stuff and she was trying to like
51:23stand up to make a point and she was
51:24just like the the six years so students
51:27who come to inter excuse me just started
51:29like clapping to to sort of and like
51:31I've read some stuff about work you guys
51:33do with like Heckler Vos yeah like
51:36basically I was just wondering like
51:38what's your response to a time when the
51:41heck be come up or will come up or like
51:44what's your response to when people will
51:46sort of say like that's how of thing
51:47should be real large that like it's just
51:49a community speaking Yeah ests to
51:52totally against it um the the um that uh
51:57that and it's something that that's
51:58really well Illustrated in a book called
52:00um The People's darling privilege by
52:02Michael Kent Curtis and it talks about
52:05um re the the original not The Simpsons
52:08guy but revend Lovejoy For Whom The
52:10Simpsons character is named believe it
52:11or not was an abolitionist um uh
52:15publisher uh who was killed defending
52:18his printing press in
52:191837 and Michael Kent Curtis explains
52:21that as being a changing an attitude
52:24about about the popular concept of
52:26freedom of speech in the United States
52:27it it wouldn't be a very strong legal
52:29concept for another 100 years but that
52:32that really changed the way Northerners
52:34and Americans thought about freedom of
52:36speech that Not only was it that the
52:37government sure as hell can't censor me
52:40but that also has a duty and power has a
52:42duty to protect you from the mob killing
52:45you or censoring you um so I you know
52:51within First Amendment law and within
52:52sort of the doctrine of fre freedom of
52:54speech which are you know somewhat
52:55separate spheres um heckler's vetos are
52:58never okay um the idea of uh I don't
53:00like that person speaking here and you
53:02show up and you you you uh shout them
53:04down and make it impossible for them to
53:05speak I am completely against that and I
53:07and I've said so a million different
53:09ways now there is a you know happy
53:11medium you know I've definitely been
53:12I've I've given speeches where people
53:14have showed up with Signs and Banners
53:16that were you know say things like free
53:17speech isn't hate hate speech is not
53:19free speech I'm like okay great thanks
53:21for protesting me I support your right
53:22to do that um but it's a very different
53:25thing when you're actually saying that
53:26you can't speak here because my mob
53:28doesn't like you and there's a really
53:30nasty and it's well stated in um in case
53:33law saying there's a really nasty
53:35feedback loop that you create where
53:37basically when you allow a heckler's
53:39veto you're saying so basically we're
53:40only going to um tolerate speech which
53:43is not unpopular with bottle throwers
53:46that basically you create an incentive
53:47to engage in um violence in some cases
53:51um because if if you make that uh if if
53:54if that's the trick to shutting down the
53:56people you disagree with unfortunately
53:58it's human nature that that's what
53:59people will
54:02do one question sure so the current
54:04controversy of Williams is is Michael
54:06Bloomberg as our graduation speaker yeah
54:09when he a lot of people want him
54:11disinvited because of stop fris or
54:12capitalism or other other different
54:14directions me when do you think it's
54:17acceptable to disinvite a speak or what
54:18should those guidelines be I it's it's
54:21kind of funny I I've been really
54:22critical of this invitation season um
54:25and it's actually sort of a term that we
54:26sort of jokingly use within fire that
54:28come commencement time uh typically
54:30although they're not all commencement
54:31speakers um universities and F students
54:34and faculty members will join together
54:36to demand that speaker X be
54:39disinvited and I want to be very clear
54:42they have the right to do that they
54:44absolutely have the right to do that
54:45however what it says about our the way
54:47we talk to each other I think is
54:48negative when your first impulse is
54:50let's not have that person here let's
54:53shut them down let's let's get them
54:55disinvited that's not
54:56rather than let's confront them let's
54:58hear them out or or even just the very
55:01oldfashioned idea of like well maybe
55:02they'll have something interesting to
55:03say that I haven't thought of um which
55:05is real sort of epistemic humility which
55:07is what scholarly thinking is actually
55:09supposed to be now I'm totally with
55:12students who are just saying I object to
55:14this and but don't want to get someone
55:16disinvited but we'll protest outside
55:18that's fine but the but the
55:19disinvitation movement I think says
55:21something negative um about about our
55:24attitudes and and i' feel I might feel
55:25slightly differently if it just wasn't
55:27so damn common and it's not just um
55:30commencement you know like this year so
55:32far it started disinvitation season
55:34started earlier than ever this year the
55:37first one was um that was Ray Kelly at
55:40Brown and and I point out I'm a civil
55:43libertarian obviously I disagree with
55:45STA and frisk but what I think was so
55:47striking about this case was that
55:49because Ray Kelly knew he was so
55:50controversial he um he agreed to an hour
55:54of question and answer after his debate
55:56so if you really wanted to stick a hard
55:57question to Ray Kelly he was there he
55:59was going to be there and they were
56:00going to be taking student questions and
56:02there were students who were there like
56:03I'm going to have it out with this dude
56:05um and that's great that's what debate
56:06and discussion should be um but instead
56:10when they when the students failed to
56:11get Ray Kelly disinvited When the
56:13different student groups failed to get
56:14them disinvited they shouted him down so
56:16it made it impossible to actually carry
56:18on the speech um that is not uh and and
56:23some of the people who were angriest
56:24about it were the students who were who
56:25had those
56:26killer questions uh for Ray Kelly so
56:30this is this is happening more and more
56:32um and I don't think if you're first
56:34solution to this problem is get someone
56:36disinvited from your campus I think
56:38you're just thinking about it the wrong
56:42way well thank you for having me
56:45[Applause]

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