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Greg Lukianoff: Cancel Culture, Deplatforming, Censorship & Free Speech | Lex Fridman Podcast #397 — Transcript

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0:00if the goal is the project of human
0:02knowledge which is to know the world it
0:03is you cannot know the world as it is
0:07without knowing what people really think
0:10and what people really think is an
0:12incredibly important fact to know so
0:15every time you're actually saying you
0:17can't say that you're actually depriving
0:19yourself of the knowledge of what people
0:20really think you're causing what Tim
0:23Quran who's on our Board of advisors
0:25calls preference falsification you end
0:27up with an inaccurate picture of the
0:29world which by the way in a lot of cases
0:32um because there are activists who want
0:34to restrict more speech they actually
0:35tend to think that people are more
0:37prejudiced than they might be and
0:38actually one very real practical way it
0:41makes things worse is when you censor
0:43people it doesn't change their opinion
0:46it just encourages them to not share it
0:48with people who will get them in trouble
0:50so it leads them to talk to people who
0:52they already agree with and group
0:54polarization takes off
0:58the following is a conversation with
1:00Greg glucianov Free Speech Advocate
1:02First Amendment attorney president and
1:05CEO of fire the foundation for
1:07individual rights and expression and
1:09he's the author of unleashing Liberty
1:11co-author with Jonathan height of
1:14coddling of the American mind and
1:16co-author with Ricky schlot of a new
1:19book coming out in October that you
1:21should definitely pre-order now called
1:23the canceling of the American mind which
1:26is a definitive accounting of the
1:28history present and future of cancel
1:30culture a term used and overused in
1:33public discourse but rarely studied and
1:36understood with the depth and rigor that
1:39Greg and Ricky do in this book and in
1:42part in this conversation
1:44freedom of speech is important the
1:47especially on college campuses the very
1:50place that should serve as the
1:52battleground of ideas including weird
1:54and controversial ones that should
1:56encourage bold risk-taking not
1:59conformity
2:01this is Alex Friedman podcast to support
2:03it please check out our sponsors in the
2:05description and now dear friends here's
2:08Greg Luciano
2:10let's start with a big question what is
2:13cancel culture now you've said that you
2:15don't like the term as it's been quote
2:17dragged through the mud and abused
2:19endlessly by a whole host of
2:21controversial figures nevertheless we
2:23have the term what is it cancel culture
2:26is the uptick of campaigns especially
2:29successful campaigns starting around
2:312014 to get people fired expelled
2:35de-platformed Etc
2:37um for speech that would normally be
2:39protected by the First Amendment and I
2:42say would be protected because we're
2:43talking about circumstances in which it
2:46isn't necessarily where the first
2:47amendment applies but what I mean is
2:49like as an analog to uh say things you
2:53couldn't lose your job as a Public
2:54Employee for and also the climate of
2:57fear that's resulted from uh from that
3:00phenomena the fact you can lose your job
3:01for having the wrong opinion and it
3:03wasn't subtle that this there was an
3:05uptick in this particularly on on campus
3:07around 2014.
3:09um John Ronson wrote a book called so
3:11you've been publicly shamed they came
3:13out in 2015 already documenting this
3:15phenomena I wrote a book called freedom
3:17from speech in 2014. and but in but it
3:20really was in 2017 when you started
3:22seeing this be directed at professors
3:23and when it comes to the number of
3:26professors that we've seen you know be
3:28targeted and lose their jobs I've been
3:31doing this for 22 years and I've seen
3:32nothing like it so there's so many
3:35things I want to ask you here but one
3:37actually just look at the organization
3:38of fire can you explain what the
3:40organization is because it's
3:41interconnected to this whole
3:43fight and the rise of cancer culture and
3:46the fight for freedom of speech since
3:482014 and before
3:50so uh fire was founded in 1999 by Harvey
3:53sliverglade he is a famous civil
3:55liberties attorney he's a bit on the
3:57show he's the person who actually found
3:59me out in my very happy life out in San
4:02Francisco but knew I was looking for a
4:04First Amendment job
4:06um I'd gone to law school specifically
4:08to do first amendment
4:10um and he he found me which was pretty
4:12cool his Protege Kathleen Sullivan was
4:15the dean of Stanford law school and this
4:17Remains the best compliment I ever got
4:19in my life is that she recommended me uh
4:22to Harvey and since that's the whole
4:25reason why I went to law school I was
4:26excited to be a part of this new
4:27organization uh the other co-founder of
4:30a fire is Alan Charles Coors he's just
4:33an absolute genius um he is the one of
4:36the leading experts in the world on the
4:38Enlightenment and particularly about
4:39Voltaire and if any of your listeners do
4:42like the Great Courses
4:44um he has a lecture on Blaze Pascal and
4:48blaze of course is famous for the
4:49Pascal's wager
4:51and I left it just so moved and
4:54impressed and with a depth of
4:56understanding of how important this
4:57person was
4:59that's interesting uh you mentioned to
5:01me offline connected to this that there
5:03is a
5:04that at least it runs in parallel or
5:06there's a connection between the love of
5:08Science and the love of the freedom of
5:10speech Yes um can you maybe elaborate
5:12where that connection is sure um I think
5:15that for those of us who are really you
5:18know who've devoted Our Lives to freedom
5:20of speech one thing that we are into
5:22whether we know it or not is
5:24epistemology
5:26um you know the the study and philosophy
5:28of knowledge you know freedom speech has
5:30lots of
5:31um moral and philosophical Dimensions
5:34but from a pragmatic standpoint it is
5:37necessary because we're creatures of
5:39incredibly limited knowledge we are
5:41incredibly self-deceiving I always love
5:44the fact that Yuval Harare uh refers to
5:46the enlightenment as the discovery of
5:48ignorance because that's exactly what it
5:51was it was suddenly being like wow hold
5:54on a second all this incredibly
5:56interesting folk wisdom we got which by
5:58the way is can be can be surprisingly
6:00reliable here and there uh when you
6:02start testing a lot of it
6:04is nonsense um and it doesn't hold up
6:07even our even our ideas about the way
6:09things fall you know as you know Galileo
6:11established like even our intuitions
6:13they're just wrong
6:15and so a lot of the early history of
6:18freedom of speech um it was happening at
6:20the same time as sort of the Scientific
6:22Revolution uh so a lot of the early
6:25debates about freedom of speech um were
6:27tied in so certainly Galileo uh certain
6:30you know um I always point out like
6:32Kepler was probably like the even more
6:34radical idea that there weren't even
6:35perfect spheres but but at the same time
6:38largely because of the invention of the
6:40printing press you also had all these
6:42political developments um and uh you
6:45know I always talk about yanhus you know
6:47from the uh a famous Czech
6:50um uh the hero who was a
6:53um who was burned at the stake and I
6:54think in 1419
6:56um but uh he was basically Luther before
7:00the printing press uh before Luther
7:02could get his word out you know he
7:04didn't stand a chance and that was
7:05exactly what Janos was but a century
7:07later thanks for the printing press
7:09everyone could know Luther thought and
7:11boy did did they but it led to of course
7:14this completely crazy hyper disrupted
7:17period in in European history
7:20well you mentioned uh to jump around a
7:22little bit the First Amendment first of
7:24all what is the first amendment and what
7:25is the connection to you between
7:28the First Amendment the freedom of
7:30speech and cancer culture sure
7:32so I'm a First Amendment lawyer as I
7:35mentioned and that's what I uh that's my
7:37passion that's what I studied and I
7:38think American First Amendment law is
7:39incredibly interesting in one sentence
7:42the first amendment is trying to get rid
7:45of basically all the reasons why
7:47humankind had been killing each other
7:48for its entire existence that we weren't
7:51going to fight anymore over opinion we
7:53weren't going to fight any more of
7:54religion that you have the right to
7:56approach your government for redressing
7:57grievances um that you you have the
7:59freedom to associate that all of these
8:01things in one sentence were like nope
8:04the government will no longer interfere
8:06with you with uh with your right to have
8:08these have these fundamental human uh
8:10human rights and so one thing that makes
8:13fire a little different from other
8:15organizations is is however we're not
8:17just a First Amendment organization we
8:20are a free speech organization and so uh
8:23and and but at the same time a lot of
8:26what I think free speech is can be well
8:30explained with reference to a lot of
8:32First Amendment law partially because in
8:35in American history some of our smartest
8:37people have been thinking about what the
8:39parameters of freedom of speech are
8:41um in relationship to the First
8:42Amendment and a lot of those principles
8:44they transfer very well just as as
8:46pragmatic ideas so like the biggest sin
8:49in terms of censorship is called
8:51Viewpoint discrimination that
8:53essentially you allow freedom of speech
8:54except for that opinion now it's and
8:57it's found to be kind of more defensible
9:00and I think this makes sense that if if
9:01you set up a forum and like we're only
9:03going to talk about economics to exclude
9:05people who want to talk about a
9:06different topic but it's considered
9:08rightfully
9:09um a bigger deal if you've set up a
9:12forum from economics but we're not going
9:13to let people talk about that kind of
9:15Economics or have that opinion on
9:17economics what most most particularly so
9:20a lot of the principles from First
9:22Amendment law actually make a lot of
9:24philosophical sense as good principles
9:25for when like what is protected and
9:29unprotected speech what should get you
9:30in trouble how you actually analyze it
9:33which is why we actually try and our
9:35definition of cancel culture to work in
9:37some of the First Amendment Norms just
9:39in the definition so we don't have to
9:40bog down on them as well you're saying
9:42so many interesting things but if you
9:43can link on the Viewpoint discrimination
9:46is there any gray area of discussion
9:49there like what isn't isn't economics
9:51for the example you gave yeah is it is
9:54there uh I mean is it a science does it
9:57or is it an R to draw lines of what is
9:59and isn't allowed yeah you know if
10:01you're saying that something is or is
10:02not economics well you can say
10:03everything's economics and therefore I
10:05want to talk about poetry there'd be
10:06some line drawing exercise in there but
10:08let's say you at once you decide to open
10:10up
10:12um uh it's a poetry even
10:15um it's a big difference between saying
10:17okay now we're open to poetry uh but you
10:19can't say you know Dante was bad
10:22um like that's a that's a forbidden
10:24opinion now officially in in this
10:26otherwise open Forum that would
10:27immediately at an intuitive level strike
10:29people as a bigger problem than just
10:32saying that poetry isn't economics yeah
10:35I mean that intuitive level that you
10:37speak to
10:39I hope
10:41that all of us have that kind of basic
10:43intuition when the line is crossed it's
10:45the same thing for like pornography yeah
10:47you know when you see it I I think
10:49there's the same level of intuition that
10:52should be applied across the board here
10:55um and it's when that intuition becomes
10:58deformed by whatever forces of society
11:00that's when it starts to feel like
11:01censorship yeah I mean people find it a
11:04different thing um you know if someone
11:06loses their job simply for their
11:07political opinion even if that employer
11:09has every right in the world to fire you
11:11I think Americans should still be like
11:13well it's true they have every right in
11:15the world and I'm not making a legal
11:16case that maybe you shouldn't
11:18fire someone for their political opinion
11:20but think that through like what what
11:22Society do we want to what kind of
11:24society do we want to live in and it's
11:26been funny watching
11:28um you know and I I point this out yes I
11:31will defend businesses uh First
11:33Amendment rights of Association to be
11:36able to have the legal right to decide
11:37you know who works for them
11:40um but from a moral or philosophical
11:41matter
11:42if you think through the implications of
11:44if every business in America becomes an
11:48expressive Association in addition to
11:50being a profit maximizing organization
11:52that would be a disaster for democracy
11:54because you would end up in a situation
11:56where people would actually be saying to
11:58themselves I don't think I can actually
12:00say what I really think and and still
12:02believe I can keep my job and that's
12:04where I was worried I felt like we were
12:06headed because a lot of the initial
12:07response to people getting canceled
12:10um was uh very simply
12:13um you know oh but they have the right
12:14to get rid of this person
12:16um and that and and that's that's the
12:18end and be beginning and end of the
12:19discussion and I thought that was a
12:22Dodge I thought that wasn't actually a
12:24very serious way of that if you care
12:26about both the First Amendment and
12:28freedom of speech of thinking it through
12:29so to you just uh
12:32clarify the first amendment is kind of
12:35a legal embodiment of the ideal of
12:39freedom of speech and then Freedom
12:40satisfied the government in this very
12:42specific applied to government and
12:44freedom of speech is the application of
12:47the principle to like everything
12:49including like kind of the high level
12:52philosophical ideal of what it of the
12:56value of uh people being able to speak
12:58their mind yeah it's an older Bolder
13:01more expansive idea and you can have a
13:05situation uh and I talk about countries
13:07that have good free speech law but not
13:09necessarily great Free Speech culture
13:10and I talk about how when we sometimes
13:13make this distinction between Free
13:15Speech law and Free Speech culture we're
13:17thinking in a very cloudy kind of way
13:20um and what I mean by that is that laws
13:23generally particularly in a common law
13:25country it's the reflection of norms
13:28those you know judges are people too and
13:31in a lot of cases common law is supposed
13:32to actually take our intuitive ideas of
13:34fairness and and place them you know
13:37into the law so if you actually have a
13:40culture that doesn't appreciate free
13:41sweet from a philosophical standpoint
13:43um it's not going to be able to protect
13:45free speech for the Long Haul even in
13:47the law because eventually that's one of
13:49the reasons why I worry so much about
13:50some of these terrible cases coming out
13:51of law schools
13:53um because I I fear that even though
13:55sure American First Amendment law is
13:57very strongly protective of First
13:58Amendment for now it's not going to stay
14:01that way if you have generations of law
14:03students
14:04um graduating who actually think there's
14:06nothing there's no higher goal than
14:08shouting down you're an opponent yeah so
14:11that's why so much of your focus
14:13uh or a large fraction of your focus is
14:16on the higher education or education
14:18period is because education
14:20is the foundation of culture yeah you
14:23have this history you know uh 64. you
14:26have the free speech movement on
14:27Berkeley and in uh 65 you have
14:30repressive tolerance by Herbert Marcus
14:32which was a declaration of by the way
14:35um we on the left we shouldn't we should
14:38have Free Speech but we should have free
14:40speech for us I mean I I went went back
14:42and reread
14:44um uh repressive tolerance and how clear
14:46it is I I forgot I had forgotten that it
14:49really is kind of like
14:50um and these so-called conservatives and
14:52right-wingers we need to repress them
14:54because they're regressive thinkers it
14:56really doesn't come out to anything more
14:57sophisticated than the very old idea
15:00um that our people are good they get
15:02free speech we should they should keep
15:04it
15:05other side bad
15:07um we should not have and we have to
15:09retrain society and of course like it it
15:12ends up being another he was also a fan
15:14of Mao so it's not surprising that he
15:16that of course the system would have to
15:18rely on some kind of totalitarian
15:20uh system but that was a laughable
15:25um uh position you know uh say 30 40
15:29years ago the I the idea that
15:30essentially you know free speech for me
15:32not for the uh as the great you know
15:35Free Speech Champion that hentov used to
15:36say was something that you were supposed
15:39to be embarrassed by but I saw this when
15:42I was in in law school in 97 I saw this
15:45when I was interning at the ACLU in 99
15:48um that there was a slow motion train
15:51wreck coming that essentially there was
15:53um these bad ideas from campus that had
15:56been
15:56taking on more and more steam of
15:59basically no free speech for my opponent
16:01we're actually becoming more more and
16:04more accepted as and partially because
16:06Academia was becoming less and less
16:08Viewpoint diverse I think that as my
16:11co-author Jonathan height points out
16:13that when you have low Viewpoint
16:15diversity people start thinking in a
16:17very kind of tribal way and if you don't
16:19have the respected dissenters you don't
16:21have the people that you can point to
16:22that I'm like hey this is a smart person
16:25um this is like this is a smart
16:26reasonable decent person that I that I
16:28disagree with so I guess not everyone
16:30thinks alike on this issue you start
16:32getting much more kind of like only you
16:35know only bad people only Heretics only
16:37blasphemers only right Wingers you know
16:40um can actually think in this way every
16:42time you say something I always have a
16:45million thoughts and a million questions
16:47that pop up but since you mentioned
16:48there's a kind of drift as you write
16:50about in the book and you mentioned now
16:52there's a drift towards the left in
16:54Academia which we were also maybe draw a
16:57distinction here between the left and
16:59the right and the cancel culture as you
17:01present in your book sure is not
17:03necessarily associated with any one
17:05political Viewpoint that there's
17:07mechanisms on both sides that result in
17:10cancellation and censorship uh in
17:12violation of freedom of speech so one
17:14thing I want to be really clear about is
17:15the book takes on both right and left
17:17cancer culture they're different in a
17:20lot of ways and definitely you know
17:21Council culture from the left is more
17:23important in Academia where the left is
17:25what dominates but we talk a lot about
17:29cancel culture coming from legislatures
17:31we talk a lot about Council culture on
17:33campus as well because even though
17:37um most of the attempts that come from
17:39on campus to get People canceled are
17:41still from the left there are a lot of
17:43attacks that come from the right that
17:45come from you know uh attempts by
17:47different organizations and sometimes
17:50when there are stories in Fox News you
17:52know like they'll go after professors
17:54and about one-third of the attempts to
17:56get at professors punished that are
17:58successful actually do come from the
18:00right and and we talk about attempts to
18:02get Books banned um in in the in the
18:05book we talk about
18:06um and uh I talk about suing the Florida
18:09legislature Ron DeSantis had something
18:11called the stop woke act
18:13um which we told everyone this is
18:15laughably unconstitutional
18:17um they tried to ban you know particular
18:19Topics in higher ed and we're like no
18:22this is a joke like like this will this
18:24will be laughed out of court
18:26um and they didn't listen to us and they
18:28brought it they passed it and we sued
18:31and we won now they're trying again with
18:34something that's equally as
18:36unconstitutional and we will sue again
18:37and we will and we will win can you
18:40elaborate and stop woke X this is
18:42presumably trying to limit certain
18:44topics from being taught in school yeah
18:46it basically woke topics um you know
18:49it's more it came out of the sort of
18:50attempt to get at a critical race Theory
18:53um so it's topics related to race gender
18:56Etc
18:57um I don't remember exactly how they
18:58tried the cabinet to um uh to CRT
19:02um but when you actually the law is
19:05really well established that you can't
19:06tell higher education what they're
19:09allowed to teach without violating uh
19:11without violating the First Amendment
19:13and when this got in front of a judge it
19:15was exactly as uh he was exactly as uh
19:18skeptical of it as we thought he'd be I
19:20think he called this dystopian
19:22um and it wasn't a close call so if
19:25you're against that kind of teaching the
19:27right way to fight it is by making the
19:30case that it's not a good idea as part
19:32of the curriculum as opposed to Banning
19:33it from the Creator yeah it just the
19:35state doesn't have the power to Simply
19:37say to ban
19:39um you know what what teacher what
19:41professors in higher education teach now
19:43it gets a little more complicated when
19:44you talk about K-12 because the state
19:47has a role in deciding what public K-12
19:50teaches because they're your kids they
19:52it's taxpayer funded
19:54um and generally the legislature is
19:57involved there is democratic oversight
19:59of that process so for K-12 is there
20:02also lean towards the left in terms of
20:04the administration that manages the
20:05curriculum yeah um there there
20:07definitely is um in K-12 the the I mean
20:11my kids go to public school
20:13um I have a five and a seven-year-old uh
20:16and they have lovely teachers
20:20um but we have run into a lot of
20:21problems with with education schools at
20:23fire
20:24um and a lot of the graduates of
20:25Education school end up being the
20:27administrators who clamp down on Free
20:28Speech in higher education
20:30and so I've been trying to think of
20:32positive ways to take on some of the
20:35some of the problems that I see in K-12
20:37I thought that the attempt to just
20:39dictate you you won't teach the
20:41following 10 books you know or 20 books
20:44or 200 books was the wrong way to do it
20:46now when it comes to deciding what books
20:48are in the curriculum again that's
20:49something the legislature actually you
20:51know can have some say in and that's
20:53pretty uncontroversial um in terms of
20:55the law but when it comes to how you
20:57fight it I had something that since I'm
20:59kind of stuck with the formula I called
21:01empowering of the American mind I gave
21:03principles that were inconsistent
21:06um with the sort of group think and
21:08heavy emphasis on uh identity politics
21:11uh that um you know some of the critics
21:14are rightfully complaining about in K-12
21:16uh and we we that is actually in
21:20canceling of the American mind but I
21:22have a more detailed explanation of it
21:24that I'm going to be putting up on my
21:25blog the eternally radical idea is it
21:28possible to legally this is a silly
21:30question perhaps create an extra
21:32protection for certain kinds of
21:34literature 1984 or something to remain
21:37in the curriculum I mean it's already
21:39it's all protected I guess yeah I I
21:41guess to protect against administrators
21:44from fiddling too much with the
21:47curriculum like stabilizing the
21:49curriculum I don't I don't know what the
21:50Machinery of the K-12 Public School in
21:54K-12 you know the state legislatures you
21:56know um they're part of that they're
21:58part of that and they can say like you
21:59should teach the following books right
22:01now of course people are always a little
22:02bit worried that um if you uh if they
22:05were to recommend you know teach uh
22:08teach the Declaration of Independence
22:09you know that it will end up being well
22:11they're going to teach the Declaration
22:12of Independence was just to protect
22:13slavery which yeah it wasn't yeah so
22:16teaching a particular topic matters
22:17which textbooks you choose which
22:19perspective you take all that kind of
22:20stuff yes there's like religion starts
22:22to creep into the whole question of like
22:24how you know is the Bible are you
22:26allowed to teach into incorporate that
22:28into education uh don't yeah I mean mean
22:31I'm I'm an atheist uh with an intense
22:34interest in religion I actually read the
22:36entire Bible this year just because I do
22:37stuff like that and I never actually had
22:39read it begin from beginning to end um
22:40then I read the Quran because you know
22:42and I'm going to try to do the Book of
22:43Mormon but you know well they started
22:45hey you're so fascinating
22:47um do you recommend doing that I think
22:49you should
22:51um just to know because it's such a
22:52touchstone
22:53um in in the way people talk about
22:55things it can get pretty tedious but I
22:58even made myself read through all of the
23:01very specific instructions on how tall
23:04the different parts of the temple need
23:05to be and how long the garbs need to be
23:08and what shape they need to be and what
23:10like and those go on a lot
23:13um there that surprisingly surprisingly
23:15big chunk of Exodus
23:17um I thought that was more like in
23:19Leviticus and Deuteronomy
23:20um but then you get to books like job
23:22you know wow I mean job is such a read
23:25and no way job originally had that
23:28ending like job is basically you it
23:31starts out as this perverse bet between
23:33god
23:34um and Satan about whether or not they
23:37can actually make a good man renounce
23:38God and initially they can't it's all
23:40going very predictably and then they
23:42finally really tortured job
23:45and he turns into the best
23:47why is God cruel how could God possibly
23:50exist How could a kind God do these
23:52things and he beats he turns into like
23:53the best lawyer in the entire world and
23:55he defeats everyone all the people who
23:57come to argue with him he he argues the
23:59pants off of them and then suddenly at
24:01the end God shows up and he's like
24:05um well you know uh I am everywhere and
24:09uh it's a very confusing answer he gives
24:12an answer kind of like I am there when
24:14when when lionesses give birth and I am
24:16there and by the way there's this giant
24:18monster Leviathan that's very big and
24:20it's very scary and I and I have to
24:22manage the universe and I'm kind of like
24:24God are you saying that you're very busy
24:26is that it it it it it is that
24:29essentially your argument to job and you
24:31don't mention the whole you don't
24:33mention the whole kind of like that I I
24:35have a bet that's why I was torturing
24:37you that doesn't come up and then at the
24:39end he decided God decides like job's
24:41like Oh no you're totally right I was
24:42totally wrong uh sorry
24:44um and I and God says I'm going to
24:46punish those people who tried to argue
24:48with you and didn't didn't win so
24:50um so he gets rid of the I don't know
24:52exactly what he does to them I don't
24:53remember
24:54um and then he gives job all his money
24:56back and all and it makes him super
24:57prosperous and I'm like no way that was
25:01the original ending of that book like
25:02because this would like this was clearly
25:04beloved novel that they were like but I
25:06can't have that happening okay so so
25:08yeah it's a long way of saying I
25:10actually think it's worthwhile uh some
25:12of it was you're always kind of
25:13surprised when you end up in the part
25:15like um
25:16there are parts of it that will sneak up
25:18on you kind of like Isaiah has a trip
25:21um Ecclesiastes Depeche Mode
25:24you did you said you also uh the qurans
25:26yeah which was fascinating so what is
25:29there it'd be interesting to ask is
25:30there a tension between
25:32the study of religious texts or the the
25:35following of religion and just believing
25:38in God and following the the various
25:41aspects of religion with the freedom of
25:43speech
25:44um in the First Amendment uh we we have
25:46something that we call the religion
25:48clause that I've never liked calling it
25:50just that because it's two brilliant
25:52things right next to each other the
25:54state may not establish an official
25:56religion but it cannot interfere with
25:58your right to practice your religion
26:00that's beautiful two things at the same
26:03time and I think they're and I think
26:04they're both exactly right and I think
26:06sometimes the right gets very excited of
26:08the free exercise clause and the left
26:10gets very excited about establishment
26:11and I like the fact that we have we have
26:14both of them together now how does this
26:15relate to freedom of speech and I was
26:18right to the curriculum like we were
26:19talking about
26:21um I actually think it would be great if
26:23Public Schools Could Teach the Bible
26:26like in the sense of like read it as a
26:28historical document but back when I was
26:30at the ACLU every time I saw people
26:32trying this it always turned into them
26:35actually advocating for you know a
26:37Catholic or a Protestant or some
26:39Orthodox even kind of like read on
26:42religion
26:43um so if you actually make it into
26:45something advocating for a particular
26:46view on religion then it crosses Into
26:48The Establishment Clause side so
26:50Americans haven't figured out a way to
26:52actually teach it so it's probably
26:54better that you you know learn learn
26:56about outside of a public school class
26:57do you think it's possible to teach
26:59religion
27:02um from like uh world religions kind of
27:06force without disrespecting the
27:08religions I think the answer is it
27:10depends on from whose perspective
27:13um well like the practitioners say
27:14you're like an orthodox follower of a
27:17particular religion yeah
27:19is it possible to not piss you off in
27:22teaching like all the major religions of
27:24the world for some people it the bottom
27:27line is you have to teach it as true
27:30ah um and with that under those
27:33conditions then the answer is no you
27:35can't teach it about without offending
27:37someone at least don't you say these
27:39people believe it's true can you reform
27:41so you have to walk on eggshells
27:43essentially you you can try really hard
27:46and you will still make some people
27:47angry but serious people will be like oh
27:49no you actually tried to be fair to to
27:51the beliefs here um and I I and I try to
27:54be respectful um as much as I can about
27:57um a lot of this I still find myself
27:59much more drawn to both Buddhism and
28:00stoicism though
28:04where do I go okay let's
28:07one interesting thing to get back to
28:10college campuses is uh the fire keeps
28:12the college free speech rankings yes at
28:16rankings.thefire.org I'm very proud of
28:17them I highly recommend because forget
28:19that even just the ranking you get to
28:21learn a lot about the universities from
28:22this entirely different perspective than
28:25people are used to when they go to pick
28:27whatever University they want to go to
28:29it just gives another perspective on the
28:31whole thing and it gives quotes from
28:33people that are students there and so on
28:35like about their experiences and and it
28:37gives different maybe you could speak to
28:39the various measures here before we talk
28:42about who's in the top five and who's in
28:44the bottom five what what what are the
28:46different uh parameters that contribute
28:48to the evaluation so people have been
28:51asking me since day one to do a ranking
28:53of schools according to freedom of
28:55speech and even though we had we had the
28:57best database in existence of Campus
29:00speech codes
29:02policies that universities have that
29:04violate the First Amendment or First
29:06Amendment Norms we all also have the
29:07best database of we call the
29:09disinvitation database but it's actually
29:12the it's better named the D platforming
29:15database which is what we're going to
29:16call it and these are all cases where
29:19somebody was invited as a speaker to
29:21campus and they were disinvited
29:23disinvited or D platforming also
29:25includes shouting down
29:27um so they showed up and they couldn't
29:29really speak yeah exactly
29:31um and and uh and so having that what we
29:35really needed in order to have some
29:37serious social science to really make a
29:39serious argument about what the ranking
29:40was
29:41um was to be able to one get a better
29:44sense of how many professors were
29:46actually getting punished during this
29:48time and then the the biggest missing
29:51element was to be able to ask students
29:54directly what the environment was like
29:56on that campus for freedom of speech are
29:59you comfortable disagreeing with each
30:00other are you comfortable disagreeing
30:02with your uh with your professors do you
30:04think violence is acceptable in response
30:06to a speaker do you think shouting uh do
30:08you think shouting down is okay do you
30:10think blocking people's access to a
30:13speaker is okay
30:14um and once we were able to get all
30:16those elements together we uh first did
30:19a test run I think in 2019 about 50 and
30:22we've been doing it for four years now
30:24always trying to make the methodology
30:26more and more precise to better reflect
30:29the actual environment at particular
30:31schools and this year the number one
30:34school is Michigan Technological
30:35University which was a a nice surprise
30:38the number two school was actually
30:40Auburn University
30:41which was nice to see in the top 10 the
30:46most well-known prestigious school is
30:47actually UVA which did really well this
30:49year University of Chicago was not happy
30:52that they weren't number one but
30:54University of Chicago is 13 and they had
30:57been number one or in the top three
30:58three years prior to that really so can
31:00you explain it's almost surprising is it
31:02because of uh like the really strong
31:04economics departments and things like
31:06this or what why they had a case
31:08involving a student they wouldn't
31:09recognize a chapter of Turning Point USA
31:12and they made a very classic argument
31:15um that we and classic in the bad way
31:17that we hear campuses across the country
31:19oh we have a campus Republicans so we
31:22don't need this additional conservative
31:23group and we're like no I'm sorry like
31:26we've seen dozens and dozens if not
31:28hundreds of attempts to get this one
31:29particular
31:31um conservative student uh student group
31:33uh de-recognized or not recognized and
31:36so we told them like listen this like we
31:40told them at fire that uh you know we
31:42consider this serious and they wouldn't
31:44recognize the group so that that's a
31:46that that's a point down in our ranking
31:49and it was enough to knock them from
31:50they probably would have been number two
31:52in the rankings uh but now they're 13
31:54out of 248 they're still one of the best
31:56schools in the country I have no problem
31:58uh saying that the school that did not
32:01do so well
32:03um at a negative 10.69 and negative
32:0710.69 and we rounded up to zero was
32:10Harvard and Harvard uh has been not very
32:14happy with that result the only school
32:16to receive the abysmal ranking yeah and
32:18there are a couple oh Harvard oh Harvard
32:21and there are a couple people who have
32:22actually been really I think making a
32:24mistake by getting very Harvard
32:27um sounding by being like I've had
32:29statisticians look at this and they they
32:30think your methodology is a joke and uh
32:33and like pointing out in this case
32:34wasn't that important and that scholar
32:36wasn't that scholar like one of the
32:38arguments against one of the scholars
32:39that we counted against them for uh
32:42punishing was that that wasn't a very
32:44you know famous or influential scholar
32:46and I'm kind of like so your argument
32:49seems to be snobbery like essentially
32:52that like you you're not understanding
32:54our methodology for one thing and then
32:56you're saying that actually that scholar
32:58wasn't important enough to count and by
33:00the way Harvard
33:01by the way Harvard
33:04um if we yeah if we even if we took all
33:09of your arguments as true even if we
33:12decided to get rid of those two
33:13professors
33:15um you would still be in negative
33:16numbers you would still be dead last you
33:18would still be after Georgetown and Penn
33:20and neither of those schools are good
33:22for freedom of speech I should say the
33:23the bottom five is the University of
33:25Pennsylvania thank you said Penn uh the
33:28University of South Carolina Georgetown
33:30University and Fordham University all
33:33very well earned that they have so many
33:34bad cases at all of those schools what's
33:36the best way to find yourself in the
33:39bottom five if you're a university
33:40what's what's the fastest way to that
33:42negative to that zero a lot of
33:44de-platforming
33:45um that uh when we looked at the bottom
33:48five uh 81 of attempts to get speakers
33:51de-platformed were successful at the
33:53bottom five um there were a couple
33:55schools I think Penn included where
33:57every single attempt every time a
33:59student like objected a student group
34:01objected to that speaker coming they
34:03canceled this the speech and I think I
34:05think Georgetown was 100 success right I
34:07think Penn had 100 success rate I think
34:10Harvard did stand up for a couple but
34:12mostly uh people got D platform there as
34:15well so how do you push back on
34:17de-platforming well who who would do it
34:19is it other students is it faculty is it
34:22the administration what's the Dynamics
34:24of uh pushing back of basically because
34:27I imagine
34:29some of it is culture but imagine every
34:34university has a bunch of students who
34:35will protest basically every speaker and
34:37it's a question of how you respond to
34:39that protest well here's here's the
34:41dirty little secret about like the big
34:43change in 2014.
34:45um and and fire and me and height um
34:48have been very clear that the big change
34:49that we saw on campus was that for most
34:52of my career students were great
34:54um on freedom of speech they were the
34:55best constituency for free speech
34:57absolutely unambiguously until about
35:002013 2014. and it was only in 2014 where
35:04we had these very you know kind of sad
35:06for us experience where suddenly
35:07students were the ones advocating for
35:08de-platforming and new speech codes kind
35:12of in a similar way that they had been
35:13doing in say like the mid-80s uh for
35:15example but here's the Dirty Little
35:17Secret
35:17it's not this it's just the students
35:20it's students and administrators some
35:22sometimes only a handful of them though
35:24working together to make uh to create
35:27some of these problems and this was
35:28exactly what happened at Stanford when
35:30Kyle Duncan uh a fifth Circuit Judge
35:33tried to speak at my alma mater and a
35:35fifth of the class showed up to shout
35:37them down it was a real showing of The
35:40of what was what was going on that 10
35:43minutes into the shout down of a fifth
35:45Circuit Judge and I keep on emphasizing
35:46that because I'm a constitutional lawyer
35:48if historical judges are big deals
35:50they're one level below the Supreme
35:52Court
35:53um you know about a fifth of the school
35:54shows up to shut them down after 10
35:57minutes of shouting him down an
35:58administrator a Dei administrator gets
36:00up with a prepared speech that she that
36:02she's written that's a seven minute long
36:04speech where she talks about uh Free
36:07Speech maybe the juice isn't worth the
36:09squeeze and we we we're at this law
36:11school where people could learn to
36:13challenge these norms so it's clear that
36:15there was coordination you know amongst
36:17some of these administrators and from
36:19talking to students there they were in
36:21meetings extensive meetings for a long
36:23time they show up do a shout down then
36:25they take an additional seven minutes to
36:28to to lecture the speaker on Free Speech
36:31not being not the juice of free speech
36:33not being worth the squeeze
36:36um and then for the rest of it it's just
36:38constant heckling
36:39um after she after she leaves this is
36:42clearly and this and something very
36:44similar you know happened a number of
36:45times at Yale where it was very clearly
36:47administrators were helping along with a
36:50lot of these disruptions so I think
36:52every time there is a shout down at a
36:54university the investigation should be
36:57first and foremost did administrators
37:01help create this problem did they do
37:03anything to stop it because I think a
37:06lot of what's really going on here is
37:07the hyper bureaucratization of
37:08universities with a lot more ideological
37:10people who think of their primary job as
37:13basically like policing speech more or
37:15less they're encouraging students sorry
37:18they're encouraging students who have
37:19opinions they like
37:21um to do shout Downs um and that's why
37:23they really need to investigate this and
37:27it is uh at Stanford the administrator
37:30who who gave the prepared remarks um
37:32about the juice not being worth the
37:33squeeze she has not been invited back to
37:35Stanford but she's one of the only
37:37examples I can think of when these
37:39things happen a lot where an
37:40administrator clearly facilitated
37:42something that was a shout down or
37:44de-platforming or resulted in a
37:46professor getting fired or resulted in a
37:48student getting expelled where the
37:50administrator has got off scot-free or
37:53probably in some cases even gotten a
37:55promotion and so a small number of
37:57Administrators maybe even a single
37:59administrator
38:00could participate in the encouraging and
38:03the organization and thereby empower the
38:05whole process and that's something I've
38:07seen throughout my entire career and the
38:08only thing is kind of hard to catch this
38:10sort of in the act so to speak and
38:12that's one of the reasons why it's
38:13helpful for people to know about this
38:14you know
38:15uh because
38:17there was this amazing case this was at
38:19University of Washington
38:21um and we actually featured this in a
38:22documentary he made in 2015 20 that came
38:25out in 2015 2016. called can we take a
38:28joke
38:29um and this was when we started noticing
38:30something was changing on campus we also
38:32heard that comedians were saying that
38:34they couldn't use their Good Humor
38:35anymore this was right around the time
38:37that Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock said
38:39that they couldn't uh they didn't want
38:41to play on campuses because they they
38:42could they they couldn't be funny
38:44uh but we featured a case of a comedian
38:47who wanted to do a musical called The
38:50Passion of the musical making fun of The
38:51Passion of the Christ with the stated
38:53goal of offending everyone every group
38:56equally it was very very much a South
38:58Park Mission
39:00um and it's an unusual case because we
39:03actually got documentation of
39:05Administrators buying tickets for angry
39:08students and holding an event where they
39:11where they trained them to to jump up in
39:14the middle of it and Shout I'm offended
39:16like they they bought them tickets they
39:18sent them to this this thing with the
39:20goal of shouting it down now
39:22unsurprisingly when you send an angry
39:25group of students to shut down a play
39:27it's it's not going to end at just I'm
39:30offended
39:31um and it got heated there were death
39:33threats being thrown the um and the and
39:36then the Pullman Washington police told
39:38uh Chris uh Chris Lee the guy who made
39:41the play that he they wouldn't actually
39:43protect him now it's not every day
39:44you're gonna have that kind of hard
39:46evidence that that that of actually
39:48seeing the administrators be so uh so
39:51Brazen that they recorded the fact that
39:53they bought them tickets and sent them
39:54but I think a lot of that stuff is is
39:57going on and I think it's the it's a
40:00good excuse to cut down on one of the
40:01big problems in higher education today
40:03which is hyper bureaucratization
40:05the new experience does their
40:06distinction between administrators and
40:08faculty in terms of uh perpetrators of
40:11this of these kinds of things so if if
40:14we got rid of all like Harvey's talked
40:16about uh getting rid of a large
40:18percentage of the administration does
40:19that help fix the problem or is the
40:21faculty also yeah small
40:25percent of the faculty also part of the
40:27encouraging in the organization of these
40:28kind of cancel yeah and and that's
40:31something that has been profoundly
40:33disappointing um is that when you look
40:34at the huge uptick in attempts to get
40:37professors fired that we've seen over
40:39the last 10 years
40:40and actually over the last 22 years as
40:43far back as our records go
40:46um
40:47at first they were overwhelmingly led by
40:49administrators attempts to get
40:51professors punished
40:53um and that was most you know I'd say
40:55that was my career up until 2013 was was
40:57fighting back at administrative excesses
41:00um then you start having the problem in
41:012014 of students trying to get people
41:04canceled um and that really accelerated
41:06in 2017 and the number so one way that
41:09one one thing that makes it easier to
41:10document is are the petitions to get
41:12professors fired or punished and how
41:15disproportionately that those actually
41:16do come from students but another big
41:19uptick has been fellow professors
41:21demanding that their fellow professors
41:24get punished and that to me really sad
41:26it's kind of shameful you you shouldn't
41:28be proud of signing the petition to get
41:31your fellow professor and what's what's
41:33even more more shameful is that we get
41:36store this this is a this has almost
41:38become a cliche within fire when someone
41:40is facing one of these cancellation
41:42campaigns as a professor I would get
41:44letters from some of my friends saying I
41:47am so sorry this has happened to you and
41:50these were the same people who publicly
41:52signed the petition to get them fired
41:54yeah yeah
41:57yeah integrity
41:59Integrity is an important thing in this
42:01world and I think some of it
42:06I'm so surprised people don't stand up
42:08more for this because there's so much
42:10hunger for it and if you have the guts
42:13as a faculty or an administrator to
42:14really stand stand up
42:17uh with eloquence
42:20with rigor with Integrity I feel like
42:23it's impossible for anyone to do
42:27anything because there's such a hunger
42:29it's so refreshing yeah I think
42:31everybody agrees that freedom of speech
42:35is a good thing oh I don't I don't well
42:37okay sorry to say I don't agree the
42:39majority of people even at the
42:41universities that there's a hunger but
42:43it's almost like uh this kind of
42:45nervousness around it because there's a
42:47small number of loud voices yeah they're
42:50doing the shouting so I mean again
42:52that's the where great leadership comes
42:54in and so you know presence of
42:56University should probably be making
42:59clear Declarations of like this is not
43:01this is a place where we value the
43:04freedom of expression when it and this
43:06was oh this all throughout my career
43:08um a president a university president
43:09who puts their foot down early and says
43:13Nope you know we are not entertaining
43:15fire English Professor we are not
43:17expelling the student it ends the issue
43:19often very fast although sometimes and
43:22this is where you can really tell the
43:23administrative involvement students will
43:26do things like take over the president's
43:28office and then that takeover will be
43:30catered by the university people will
43:32point this out sometimes as being kind
43:33of like oh it's clearly like um my
43:36friend Sam Abrams when they tried to get
43:38uh tried to get him fired at uh Sarah
43:40Lawrence College
43:42um and uh that was one of the times that
43:45it was used as kind of like oh this was
43:47hostile to the university because they
43:49the students took over the president's
43:51office and I'm like no they let them
43:52take over the president's office and I
43:54don't know if that was one of the cases
43:55in which the the Takeover was catered
43:57but if there was ever sort of like a
43:59sign that's kind of like yes this isn't
44:00this is actually really quite friendly
44:03well in some sense like protesting and
44:05having really strong opinions even like
44:07ridiculous crazy wild opinions it's a
44:09good thing it's just it shouldn't lead
44:10to actual firing or de-platforming of
44:13people like it's good to protest it's
44:15just not good to for the University to
44:18support that and take action based on it
44:19and this is one of one of those like um
44:21tensions in in first amendment that
44:23actually I think has a pretty easy
44:24release essentially you have app you
44:27absolutely have the right to uh devote
44:31your life to ending freedom of speech
44:33and ridiculing as a concept and and
44:36there are people who who really are can
44:38come off as very contemptible about even
44:40the philosophy of freedom a speech and
44:43we will defend your right to do that we
44:45will also disagree with you and if you
44:48try to get a professor fired we will be
44:49on the other side of that now I think he
44:51had Randy Kennedy Who I Really I love
44:54him I think I think he's a great guy but
44:56he's he criticized us for our
44:59de-platforming database as saying this
45:01is saying that that students can't
45:03protest speakers I'm like okay that's
45:05silly
45:06um we fire as an organization have
45:09defended the right to protest all the
45:11time we are constantly defending the
45:12rights of the rights of protesters not
45:15believing the protesters have the right
45:17to say this would like basically that
45:19would be punishing the speakers we're
45:21not calling for punishing um uh the
45:24protesters but what we are saying is you
45:26can't let the protesters win if they're
45:28demanding someone be fired for their
45:30freedom of speech so the line there is
45:33between protesters protesting in the
45:37University
45:38taking action based on the protest yeah
45:40exactly and of course shout Downs that
45:42that's just mob censorship
45:44um and that's something where the
45:45university the way that the way you
45:47actually you deal with that tension in
45:49First Amendment law is essentially kind
45:51of like the one positive Duty that the
45:52government has the the first the
45:54negative due to the thing that it's not
45:55allowed to do is censor you
45:58um but it's positive duty is that if if
46:00I want to say awful things or for that
46:03matter great things that aren't popular
46:04in a public park
46:06um you can't let the crowd just shout me
46:08down
46:09um you can't allow what's called a
46:11heckler's veto
46:13that's so interesting because I feel
46:15like that comes into play on social
46:17media somehow because you know there's
46:19this whole discussion about censorship
46:21and freedom of speech but to me the the
46:24carrot question is almost more
46:27interesting once the freedom of speech
46:29is established is how do you incentivize
46:31high quality debate and disagreement I'm
46:34thinking a lot about that and that's one
46:36of the things we talk about in
46:36counseling of the American mind is
46:38arguing towards truth and that cancel
46:40culture is cruel it's merciless it's
46:45anti-intellectual but it also will never
46:47get you anywhere near truth and you are
46:49going to waste so much time destroying
46:51your opponents
46:52um in in something that can actually
46:53never get you to True through the
46:55process of course of you never actually
46:57get directly at truth you just chip away
46:59at falsity yeah but everybody having a
47:02megaphone on the internet with anonymity
47:05it seems like
47:07it's better than censorship
47:10but it feels like there's
47:12incentives on top of that you can
47:15construct to
47:16um yeah to incentivize better discourse
47:19yeah it's like to incentivize somebody
47:22who puts a huge amount of effort to make
47:24even the most ridiculous arguments but
47:26basically ones that don't include any of
47:29the things you highlight in terms of all
47:31the rhetorical tricks yeah to shut down
47:34conversations just make really good
47:37Arguments for whatever it doesn't matter
47:38if it's uh communism for fascism
47:41whatever the heck you want to say yeah
47:43but do it with scale with historical
47:45context with uh uh with steel man in the
47:49other side all those kind of elements we
47:50try to make three major points on the
47:52book one is just simply cancel culture
47:55is real it's a it's a historic era and
47:58it's on a historic scale the second one
48:00is you should think of cancel culture as
48:03part of a um rhetorical as a larger lazy
48:07rhetorical uh approach to what what we
48:11refer to as winning arguments without
48:13winning arguments and we mean that in
48:14two senses without having winning
48:16arguments or well have actually having
48:18one arguments and we talk about all the
48:20different what we call rhetorical
48:22fortresses that both the left and the
48:24right have that prevent you from that
48:26allow you to just dismiss the person
48:29or Dodge the argument without actually
48:32ever getting to the substance of the
48:33argument third part is just you know how
48:35do we fix it but the rhetorical Fortress
48:37stuff is actually something I've been
48:38I'm very passionate about because it it
48:40interferes with our ability to get at
48:42truth and it wastes time and and frankly
48:45it also kind of since Castle culture is
48:48part of that rhetorical tactic it can
48:49also ruin lives
48:51it would actually be really fun to talk
48:52about this particular aspect of the book
48:54and I highly recommend if you're
48:56listening to this go pre-order the book
48:58now
48:59uh when does it come out October 17th
49:02okay the canceling of the American mind
49:03okay so in uh
49:06in the book you also have a list of
49:09cheap rhetorical tactics that both the
49:11left and the right use and then you have
49:14a list of tactics that left uses and the
49:18right uses yeah there's the rhetorical
49:20the perfect rhetorical Fortress that the
49:23left uses and the efficient rhetorical
49:25Fortress that the right uses yeah first
49:27one is what aboutism yeah maybe we can
49:30go through a few of them that capture
49:32your heart in this particular moment as
49:33we talk about it and if if you can
49:37describe examples of it or with uh
49:40there's aspects of it that you see
49:41they're especially effective effective
49:43so uh what aboutism is defending against
49:46criticism of your side by bringing up
49:48the other side's alleged wrongdoing I
49:51want to make little cards of these of
49:54all of these tactics and start using
49:56them on X all the time because they are
49:59so commonly deployed and what aboutism I
50:01put first for a reason you know it'd be
50:03an interesting idea to actually
50:04integrate that into Twitter X where
50:08people you know instead of clicking
50:09heart they can click which of the uh uh
50:13which of the rhetorical tactics this is
50:15and then because you know there's
50:17actually Community notes I don't know if
50:18you've seen on X there you people can
50:21contribute notes and it's quite
50:24fascinating it works really really well
50:25but to give it a little more structure
50:28yeah that's a really interesting method
50:30actually yeah I actually when I was
50:31thinking about ways that X could be used
50:33for to argue towards truth I wouldn't
50:36want to have it so that you know
50:37everybody would be bound to that but I
50:40think that I imagine almost being like a
50:42stream within X that was truth focused
50:45that that agrees to some additional
50:47rules on how they would argue man I
50:49would love that where like there's in
50:52terms of streams that intersect and can
50:54be separated the talking one where
50:57people just enjoy talking oh okay
50:59go for it and then there's like truth
51:01and then uh I mean there like then
51:04there's humor
51:06then there's like Good Vibes like you
51:09know I'm not like somebody who
51:11absolutely needs Good Vibes all the time
51:12but sometimes it's nice to have it's
51:14nice to just log in and not have to see
51:17like the drama the fighting the
51:20bickering the the cancellations the moms
51:22all of this it's good to just see uh
51:25that's why I go to Reddit r ah or like
51:28uh one of the cute animals ones whether
51:30there's cute puppies and kittens and
51:32it's like I just want to see Ryan
51:33Reynolds singing with Will Ferrell I
51:35mean like sometimes that's all you I
51:37need that in my heart yeah not all the
51:39time just a little bit then right back
51:41to the the Battle For Truth okay so what
51:44aboutism what about Islam yeah that's
51:46everywhere um when you look at it uh
51:48when you look at Twitter when you look
51:49at social media in general
51:51um and the first like what we call the
51:54obstacle course is basically time tested
51:56old-fashioned you know
51:58argumentative Dodges that everybody uses
52:01and what about ism is just bringing up
52:02something uh you know like someone makes
52:05an argument like Biden has corrupt and
52:07and then someone says well Trump was
52:08worse you know like and that's
52:11not an illegitimate you know argument to
52:14make back but it does it seems to happen
52:16every time someone makes an assertion
52:18someone just points out some other thing
52:19that was going on and it can get
52:20increasingly attenuated from from what
52:22you're actually trying to argue and when
52:25you and that you see this all the time
52:26on social media and it's kind of you
52:29know I was a big fan of Jon Stewart's
52:31Daily Show but an awful lot of what the
52:33humor was and what the tactic was for
52:35arguing was this thing over here it's
52:37like oh I'm making this argument at this
52:38important problem oh actually you know
52:41there's this other problem over here
52:42that I'm more concerned about and it was
52:45it you know and on the you know let's
52:46let's pick on the right here so January
52:496 you know watching Everybody arguing
52:52about
52:52um chop you know like the um uh the the
52:55occupied part of Seattle or the occupied
52:57part of Portland and so and basically
53:00trying to like oh you're bringing up the
53:01the riot on January 6. um and by the way
53:04I live on Capitol Hill so believe me I
53:06was very aware of like how scary and bad
53:08it was
53:10um you know like if that just my dad
53:12grew up in Yugoslavia and that was a
53:13night where we all ate dinner in the
53:15basement because I'm like oh when the
53:16ship goes down eat in the basement it
53:18was it was it was genuinely scary and
53:21people would try to deflect from January
53:236 being serious by actually be making
53:25the argument that oh well there are
53:27crazy horrible things happening in all
53:29over the country uh you know riots
53:32that came from some of the social
53:34justice protests and of course the
53:36answer is you can be concerned about
53:38both of these things and and find them
53:40both problems but you know if I'm
53:42arguing about chop you know someone
53:44bringing up January 6th isn't super
53:46relevant to it or if I'm arguing about
53:48January 6th someone uh bringing up the
53:51riots in 2020 isn't that helpful we took
53:53a long dark Journey from what aboutism
53:55yeah and uh related to that is straw
53:58Manning and and steel Manning so
53:59misrepresenting the the the the the
54:02perspective of the the opposing
54:04perspective and this is something also
54:07uh I I guess it's very prevalent and
54:10it's difficult to do the reverse of that
54:13which is still Manning requires empathy
54:15it requires eloquence it requires
54:16understanding
54:18actually doing the research and
54:19understanding the the alternative
54:22perspective my uh wonderful employee
54:24Angel Eduardo has something that he
54:26calls star Manning and and I find myself
54:28doing this a lot it's nice to have you
54:30know two immigrant parents um because I
54:33remember being in San Francisco uh you
54:36know uh in the weird kind of like ACLU
54:39slash Burning Man kind of cohort and
54:43having a friend there who was an artist
54:45who would talk about hating Kansas and
54:48that was his metaphor for Middle America
54:50is what he meant by it and but he was
54:54kind of proud of the fact that he hated
54:55Kansas and I'm like you gotta understand
54:58I still see all of you a little bit as
55:00foreigners and think about like change
55:04the name of Kansas to Croatia you know
55:07change the name of Kansas to to some
55:10that's what it sounds like to me and the
55:12star Manning idea which I which I like
55:14is is the idea being like so you're
55:16saying that you really hate your
55:18dominant religious minority like and
55:20that's when you start actually detaching
55:22yourself a little bit from it how
55:24typical America is exceptional in a
55:27number of ways but some of our Dynamics
55:29are incredibly typical it's one of the
55:31reasons why like when people start
55:33reading Thomas soul for example they
55:35start getting hooked because one of the
55:36things he does is he does comparative
55:38analysis of country's problems and
55:40points out that some of these things
55:41that we think are just unique to the
55:43United States exist in
55:45you know 75 of the rest of the countries
55:47in the world Francis fukiyamas um the
55:49book that I'm reading right now origins
55:51of the political order actually does
55:53this wonderful job of pointing out how
55:55we're not special in a variety of ways
55:56this is actually something that's very
55:58much on my mind
55:59and uh fukuyama of course uh it's a it's
56:03a it's a great book it's not it's
56:06stilted a little bit in its writing
56:08because his term for one of the things
56:10he's concerned about what destroys
56:12societies is re-patrimonialization
56:16which is the reversion to Societies in
56:21which you favor your family and friends
56:23and I actually think a lot of what I'm
56:26seeing in sort of um uh in the United
56:29States it makes me worried that we might
56:30be going through a little bit of a
56:32process of re-patrimonialization and I
56:34think that's one of the reasons why
56:35people are so angry I think having a I
56:37think that the prospect that we you know
56:39we very we very nearly seen
56:41um to have an election that was going to
56:43be you know Jeb Bush versus Hillary
56:45Clinton it's like are we a dynastic
56:48Country Now is is that what's kind of
56:49happening but also it's one of the
56:51reasons why people are getting so angry
56:52about the about legacy admissions about
56:54like how much you know certain families
56:57seem to be able to keep their people in
57:00the upper classes of the United States
57:01perpetually and believe me like I I was
57:04poor when I was a kid and I went and I
57:06got to go to I got to go to one of the
57:08fancies I got to go to Stanford
57:10um
57:11and I got to see how people
57:16they treat you differently in a way
57:18that's almost insulting like basically
57:20like suddenly to a certain kind of
57:23person I was a legitimate person and I
57:25look at how much America relies on
57:28Harvard on Yale to produce its I'm going
57:32to use it very marks the sounding term
57:33ruling class
57:34and that's one of the reasons why you
57:36have to be particularly worried about
57:38what goes on at these Elite colleges and
57:41these Elite colleges with the exception
57:42University of Chicago and and UVA do
57:45really badly regarding freedom of speech
57:48and that has all sorts of problems
57:51um
57:52it doesn't bode well for the future of
57:54the protection of freedom of speech for
57:56the rest of the society
57:57so can you also empathize there with the
58:01folks who voted for Donald Trump
58:04um because as precisely that as a
58:07resistance to this kind of uh
58:10momentum of the ruling class this uh
58:14this royalty that passes on the uh the
58:17rule from generation to generation I try
58:20really hard to empathize with to a
58:23degree everybody and and try to really
58:25see where they're coming from
58:27um and the anger on the right I get it I
58:30mean like I I feel like the um the book
58:34so coddling the American mind was a book
58:36that I that could be sort of a crowd
58:39pleaser to a degree partially because we
58:42really meant what we said in the
58:44subtitle that these are uh good
58:46intentions and bad ideas that are
58:48hurting people
58:50um and if you understand it and read the
58:52book you can say it's like okay this
58:53isn't anybody being
58:55malicious you know this is people trying
58:57to protect their kids they're just doing
58:59it in a way that actually can actually
59:01lead to Greater anxiety depression and
59:04strangely eventually posed a threat to
59:06freedom of speech
59:07but in this one we can't be quite uh me
59:11and my uh oh I haven't even mentioned my
59:12brilliant co-author Ricky schlatt the 23
59:14year old
59:16genius she's she's amazing I started
59:18working with the one she was 20. who's
59:20my co-author on this book um so when I'm
59:23saying we I'm talking about me and Ricky
59:24he's a Libertarian libertarian
59:26journalist and a journalist he has a
59:28brilliant mind yeah and but we can't
59:31actually write this in a way that's too
59:32kind because cancers aren't kind that
59:35there's a cruelty and a mercilessness
59:37about it I mean I start getting really
59:39depressed this past year when I was
59:41writing it and I didn't even want to
59:42tell my staff why I was getting so
59:43anxious and depressed it's partially
59:45because I'm talking about people who
59:47will
59:48you know in some of the cases we're
59:50talking about let me go to your house
59:52Target your kids
59:54um so so that's a long winter way of
59:56saying the um
59:58I I kind of can get what sort of drives
1:00:01the right nuts to a degree in this I
1:00:03feel like they're constantly feeling
1:00:04like they're being gaslit
1:00:06um
1:00:07Elite Education is really insulting to
1:00:11the working class
1:00:12um like it part of the ideology that's
1:00:14dominant right now kind of treats
1:00:17almost 70 of the American public like
1:00:19they're we talked we developed this a
1:00:21little bit in the perfect rhetorical
1:00:22Fortress like there to some some way
1:00:25illegitimate
1:00:26um and not worthy of
1:00:28respect or compassion yeah the the
1:00:31general elitism that radiates
1:00:35self-fueling elitism that radiates from
1:00:37the people that go to these institutions
1:00:40and what's funny is the the the elitism
1:00:42has been repackaged as a kind of
1:00:46it
1:00:48masquerades this kind of infinite
1:00:50compassion that essentially it's based
1:00:52in a sort of
1:00:53a very
1:00:54to be frank overly simple ideology and
1:00:57over some believe a simple explanation
1:01:00of the world and breaking people into
1:01:01groups and
1:01:03um judging people on how oppressed they
1:01:05are on their on the intersection of
1:01:07their various identities
1:01:10um and it came to that I think initially
1:01:12with with an appeal from a compassionate
1:01:15core but it gets used in a way that is
1:01:19can be very cruel very dismissive
1:01:22compassion less and allows you to not
1:01:25take seriously most of your fellow human
1:01:28beings it's really weird how that
1:01:30happened maybe you can
1:01:32explore why a thing that has
1:01:35kind of sounds good at first yeah can be
1:01:39can creates
1:01:41can become such a cruel weapon of
1:01:43canceling and hurting people and
1:01:45ignoring people I mean this is what you
1:01:47describe with the perfect rhetorical
1:01:49Fortress Yeah which is a set of
1:01:51questions maybe you can
1:01:52um elaborate I want the perfect
1:01:53rhetorical fortresses yeah so the
1:01:55perfect rhetorical Fortress is the way
1:01:59um that's been developed uh on the left
1:02:01to not ever get to someone's actual
1:02:04argument
1:02:05um I want to make a chart like a flow
1:02:06chart of this about like here's the
1:02:08argument and here is this perfect
1:02:09Fortress that will deflect you every
1:02:11time from getting to the argument
1:02:14um and I started to notice this
1:02:15certainly when I when I was in law
1:02:17school that there were lots of different
1:02:19ways you could dismiss people and
1:02:20perfect rhetorical Fortress step one
1:02:23and I can attest to this because I was
1:02:26guilty of this as well that you can
1:02:27dismiss people if you can argue that
1:02:31they're conservative they don't have to
1:02:32be conservative to be clear you just
1:02:34have to say that they are
1:02:36um so I never read Thomas Soul because
1:02:39he was the right winger yeah I didn't
1:02:41read Camille Paglia because I was I'd
1:02:44someone had convinced me she was a right
1:02:45winger there were lots of authors that
1:02:47um and when I was in law school it among
1:02:50a lot of very bright people
1:02:52it really was already an intellectual
1:02:55habit that if you could designate
1:02:57something Conservative then you didn't
1:02:59really have to think about it very much
1:03:00anymore or take it particularly
1:03:01seriously that's a childish way of
1:03:04arguing but nonetheless I engaged in it
1:03:07it was a common tactic and I even
1:03:08mentioned in the book there was a time
1:03:09when a um
1:03:11uh a a gay activist friend who's I think
1:03:14decided to leave to my left but
1:03:16nonetheless had that pragmatic
1:03:17experience of actually being an activist
1:03:19said something like well just because
1:03:21someone's conservative doesn't mean
1:03:22they're wrong and I remember feeling
1:03:24kind of scandalized at some level of
1:03:26just being like well that's kind of it's
1:03:28not the whole thing what we're saying is
1:03:29that they're just kind of bad people
1:03:30with bad ideas you can just throw uh oh
1:03:33that guy's a right-winger you can just
1:03:34throw that don't have to think about you
1:03:36anymore yeah and then it can um if
1:03:38you're popular enough it can be those it
1:03:40can be kind of sticky yeah like and it's
1:03:44weird because because it's effective
1:03:46that's why it keeps on getting used it
1:03:48essentially it it should have hit
1:03:50someone's because because I you know I
1:03:53have a great
1:03:54liberal pedigree you know everything
1:03:56from working at the ACLU to doing
1:03:57Refugee law in Eastern Europe I was part
1:04:00of an environmental mentoring program
1:04:02for inner city high school kids in DC
1:04:04you know I've been I've been I I I I can
1:04:07ex you know defend myself as being on
1:04:10the left but I hate doing that because
1:04:13there's also part of me that's like okay
1:04:15so what like are you really saying that
1:04:18if you can magically make me argue or
1:04:22convince yourself that that I'm on the
1:04:24right that you don't have to listen to
1:04:25me anymore and again that's arguing like
1:04:27children and the reason why this has
1:04:29become so popular is because even among
1:04:32or maybe maybe especially among Elites
1:04:34that it works so effectively as a
1:04:36perfect weapon that you can use
1:04:37uncritically if I can just prove you're
1:04:39on the right I don't have to I don't
1:04:40have to think about you it's no wonder
1:04:42that suddenly you start seeing people
1:04:44calling the ACLU right wing and calling
1:04:47the New York Times right wing because
1:04:49it's been such an effective way to
1:04:51delegitimize people as thinkers you know
1:04:55um Stephen Pinker who's on our Board of
1:04:57advisors he refers to Academia as being
1:05:00the left pole
1:05:01um that essentially it's it's a position
1:05:03that from uh from that point of view
1:05:05everything looks to its right it looks
1:05:07as if it's on the right
1:05:09um but once it becomes a tactic that we
1:05:12um accept it and that's one of the
1:05:14reasons why I you know I'm I'm more on
1:05:16the left I'm but I think I'm left of
1:05:18center Liberal uh Ricky is you know more
1:05:21conservative libertarian and initially I
1:05:24was kind of like should I be really be
1:05:25writing something with with someone
1:05:26who's more on the right and I'm like
1:05:27absolutely I should be I I have to
1:05:30actually live up to what I believe on
1:05:31this stuff because it's ridiculous that
1:05:33we have this primitive idea that you can
1:05:35dismiss someone as soon as you claim
1:05:37rightly or wrongly that they're on the
1:05:39right well uh I feel correct me if I'm
1:05:42wrong but I I feel like you were
1:05:43recently called right wing uh fire maybe
1:05:47you by association because of the debate
1:05:51the LA Times oh fun let's talk about the
1:05:53LA Times so yes there's an article
1:05:55there's a debate I can't wait to watch
1:05:57it because I don't think it's available
1:05:58yet to watch on video you can attend in
1:06:02person I can't wait to see it uh but
1:06:04fire wasn't part supporting and then LA
1:06:06Times wrote um
1:06:07a scathing article about uh that
1:06:11everybody in the debate was basically
1:06:13right leaning right okay uh so much that
1:06:16I'm back there you know Barry Weiss has
1:06:19this you know great great project the
1:06:20Free Press I've been very impressed it's
1:06:22covering stories that the that a lot of
1:06:24the media right or left isn't willing to
1:06:26cover
1:06:28um and we did a uh we hosted a debate
1:06:31with her
1:06:32um uh and we wanted to make it as fun
1:06:35and controversial as possible uh so
1:06:37firing the the Free Press hosted a
1:06:39debate did the sexual Revolution fail so
1:06:42the debate was really exciting really
1:06:44fun the side that said that sexual
1:06:46Revolution wasn't a failure that that
1:06:48Grimes and Sarah hater were on one
1:06:51um it was you know a nice meaty
1:06:54thoughtful night and we got a re there
1:06:57was a review of it that was just sort of
1:06:58scathing about the whole thing and it
1:07:00included a line saying that uh fire
1:07:03which claims to believe in free speech
1:07:05but only defends viewpoints or degrees
1:07:06with
1:07:07I can't believe that I even made it into
1:07:09the magazine because it's not just
1:07:10calling us because of course you know
1:07:11the implication of horses that we're
1:07:13right-wing um which were not actually
1:07:15the staff liens decidedly more to the
1:07:17left and to the right
1:07:19um but we also defend people all over
1:07:22the Spectrum all the time like that's
1:07:24something that that even the most
1:07:26minimal Google search would have solved
1:07:27so like we've been giving LA Times some
1:07:29heat on this because it's like yeah if
1:07:31you said in my opinion the right wing we
1:07:34would have argued back you know um
1:07:36saying Well here here's the following 50
1:07:39000 examples of of of us not being but
1:07:42when you actually make the factual claim
1:07:44that we only defend opinions we agree
1:07:46with first of all there's no way for us
1:07:47to agree with opinions because we
1:07:49actually have a politically diverse
1:07:51staff who won't even agree on which
1:07:53opinions are good and what opinions we
1:07:55have but yeah I I had at one time when
1:07:59someone did something like this and they
1:08:01were just being a little bit flippant
1:08:02about kind of like free speech being
1:08:04fine I did a 70 tweet long uh thread you
1:08:07know just being like hey do you really
1:08:09think this is fine I decided not to do
1:08:11that um on this particular one um but
1:08:14the nice thing about it is it
1:08:16demonstrated two parts of the book uh
1:08:18canceling of the American mind if not
1:08:20more one of them is dismissing someone
1:08:22because they're conservative and because
1:08:24that was the implication don't have to
1:08:25listen to fire because they're
1:08:26conservative but the other one is
1:08:28something a termite uh that I that I
1:08:30invented specifically for the way people
1:08:32argue on Twitter which is hypocrisy
1:08:34projection hi I'm person who only cares
1:08:38about one side of the political fence
1:08:39and I think everyone else is a hypocrite
1:08:43um and by the way I haven't done any
1:08:44actual research on this but I assume
1:08:46everyone else is a hypocrite and you see
1:08:48this happen all the time the the and
1:08:51this happens to fire a lot where someone
1:08:52where is fire on this case and we're
1:08:54like we are literally quoted in the link
1:08:57you just sent but didn't actually read
1:09:00or it's like where is fire on this it's
1:09:02like here's a here's our lawsuit about
1:09:04it from six months ago
1:09:07um so it's a favorite thing and also Jon
1:09:10Stewart Daily Show like the the the the
1:09:13the the the the
1:09:14um what about ISM and the kind of like
1:09:16idea that these people must be
1:09:17Hypocrites is something that greatest
1:09:19comedy but as far is actually a
1:09:21rhetorical tactic that will get you to
1:09:22truth just assuming that your opponent
1:09:25or just accusing your opponent of always
1:09:27being a hypocrite is not a good tactic
1:09:30for truth but by the way it tends to
1:09:32always come from people who aren't
1:09:34actually consistent on Free Speech
1:09:35themselves
1:09:36so that hence the projection but
1:09:39basically not doing the research about
1:09:41whether the person is or isn't a
1:09:43hypocrite and assuming others are a
1:09:46large fraction of others reading it uh
1:09:48will also not do the research and
1:09:50therefore this kind of
1:09:52statement becomes a kind of truthiness
1:09:54without a grounding in actual reality
1:09:56yeah it breaks down that barrier between
1:09:58what isn't isn't true because if if the
1:10:01mob says something is true it takes too
1:10:03much effort to correct it and there are
1:10:05three ways I want like you know I want
1:10:07to respond to this which is just giving
1:10:09an example after example of of times
1:10:11where we just defended people on both
1:10:13sides of every major ish basically every
1:10:15major issue whether it's Israel
1:10:17Palestine whether it's terrorism whether
1:10:19it's gay marriage we have been abortion
1:10:21we have defended both sides of that
1:10:23argument the the other part and I call
1:10:26these the Orphans of the culture War
1:10:28I really want to urge the media to start
1:10:32caring about Free Speech cases that
1:10:34actually don't have a political valence
1:10:36that are actually just about good
1:10:38old-fashioned exercise of power against
1:10:40the little guy or little girl or little
1:10:42group
1:10:43um on campus or off campus for that
1:10:46matter because these cases happen a lot
1:10:48of our litigation are just little people
1:10:50there's regular people being told that
1:10:52they can't protest that they can't hold
1:10:53signs and then the last part of the
1:10:55argument that I want people to really
1:10:57get is like yeah and by the way uh right
1:11:00Wingers get in trouble too
1:11:01um and there are attacks from the left
1:11:03and you should take those seriously too
1:11:05um you should care when Republicans get
1:11:07in trouble you should care when
1:11:09California has a Dei uh program that
1:11:13requires this on the California
1:11:15community colleges has a Dei program a
1:11:18policy that actually requires even
1:11:20chemistry professors to work in uh
1:11:22different Dei ideas from
1:11:24intersectionality to anti-racism into
1:11:27their classroom into their syllabus Etc
1:11:29this is a gross violation of academic
1:11:32freedom it it it it is as bad as it is
1:11:35to tell professors what they can't say
1:11:36like we fought and defeated in in
1:11:38Florida it's even worse to tell them
1:11:40what they must say that's downright
1:11:42totalitarian and we're suing against
1:11:44this and what I'm what I'm saying is
1:11:46that
1:11:48it when you're dismissing someone for
1:11:50just being on the other other side of
1:11:52the political fence you are also kind of
1:11:54claiming making a claim that none of
1:11:57these cases matter as well and I want
1:11:59people to care about censorship when it
1:12:01even is people against people they hate
1:12:05because censorship of censorship
1:12:08uh
1:12:09if we can't take that tangent briefly
1:12:11with Dei diversity equity and inclusion
1:12:16what is the good and what is the harm of
1:12:19such programs d i I know people are a DI
1:12:23Consultants or some the actually I have
1:12:26a dear friend who I love very much um
1:12:28who does Dei
1:12:29absolutely decent people what they want
1:12:33to do
1:12:34is create bonds of understanding
1:12:37friendship compassion among people
1:12:39people who are different unfortunately
1:12:41the research on what a lot of di
1:12:43actually does is often has the opposite
1:12:46of that and I think that it's partially
1:12:49a problem with some of the ideology that
1:12:51comes from uh critical race Theory which
1:12:54is a real thing by the way um that that
1:12:56informs a lot of Dei that actually makes
1:12:58it something more likely to divide than
1:12:59unite well we talk about this in
1:13:02coddling the American mind as the
1:13:04difference between common Humanity
1:13:05identity politics and common enemy
1:13:08identity politics and I think that I
1:13:11know some of the people that I know who
1:13:13who do di they really want it to be
1:13:15common Humanity identity politics but
1:13:18some of the actual ideological
1:13:19assumptions that are baked in can
1:13:22actually cause people to feel more
1:13:23alienated from each other
1:13:25now when I started at fire my first
1:13:28cases involved 911.
1:13:31um and it was bad uh professors were
1:13:34getting targeted professors were losing
1:13:35their jobs for saying insensitive things
1:13:38about 911 and both from from the right
1:13:40and the left actually in that case
1:13:42actually sometimes more a lot more from
1:13:43the right
1:13:45um and it was really bad and about five
1:13:48professors lost their jobs that's bad
1:13:51five professors are over a relatively
1:13:53short period of time being fired for a
1:13:55political opinion that's something that
1:13:57you know would get written up in any
1:13:58previous decades
1:14:00we're now evaluating like how many
1:14:02professors have been uh targeted for
1:14:04cancellation between 2014 and uh middle
1:14:08of this year July of of 2023. we're at
1:14:12about well well over a thousand attempts
1:14:14to get professors uh fired or punished
1:14:18usually driven by students and
1:14:19administrators often driven by
1:14:21professors unfortunately as well
1:14:23about two-thirds of those result in the
1:14:26professor being punished in some way
1:14:28everything from you know having their
1:14:31article removed to suspension Etc
1:14:34about one-fifth of those result in
1:14:37professors being fired so right now
1:14:40we're it's our it's almost 200 it's 190
1:14:42um professors being fired
1:14:44um so I want to give some context here
1:14:47uh the the Red Scare is generally
1:14:49considered to have been from 1947 to
1:14:511957. it ended by the way in 57 when it
1:14:54finally became clear
1:14:56um thanks to the first amendment that
1:14:58you couldn't actually fire people for
1:14:59their ideologies prior to that
1:15:01a lot of universities thought they could
1:15:03this guy is a very doc uh doctrinaire
1:15:05communist uh you know they can't be just
1:15:07waited I'm gonna fire them
1:15:09um they thought they actually could do
1:15:11that
1:15:12um and it was only 57 when the law was
1:15:14established so like right now these are
1:15:15happening in an environment where
1:15:17freedom of speech academic freedom are
1:15:19clearly protected
1:15:21um at public colleges in in the United
1:15:22States and we're still seeing these kind
1:15:24of numbers
1:15:25um during during the the Red Scare the
1:15:28biggest study that was done of what was
1:15:30going on is I think this came out in
1:15:32like 55 and the evaluation was that
1:15:36there was about 62 professors fired for
1:15:39for being communists and about 90
1:15:42something professors fired for political
1:15:45views overall
1:15:47um that usually is it is reported as
1:15:49being about 100.
1:15:52um so 60 90 100 depending on how you
1:15:54look at it I think the number is
1:15:56actually higher
1:15:57um but that's only because of hindsight
1:15:59like what I mean by hindsight is we can
1:16:01look back and we actually find there are
1:16:03more professors who who were fired as
1:16:05time reveals
1:16:07we're at 190 professors fired and I
1:16:10still have to put up with people saying
1:16:12this isn't even happening and I'm like
1:16:13in the nine and a half years of Castle
1:16:14culture 190 professors fired in the 11
1:16:17years of uh of the Red Scare
1:16:21probably you know somewhere around 100
1:16:23maybe probably more it's got the number
1:16:25is going to keep going up um but unlike
1:16:28during the Red Scare where people could
1:16:29clearly tell something was happening the
1:16:31craziest thing about cancer culture is
1:16:32so I'm still dealing with people who are
1:16:34saying this isn't happening at all and
1:16:36it hasn't been subtle on campus and we
1:16:38know that's a wild undercount by the way
1:16:40because when we when we surveyed
1:16:41professors
1:16:43Seventeen percent of them said that they
1:16:46had been threatened with uh threatened
1:16:48with investigation or actually
1:16:49investigated for what they taught said
1:16:52or or their research and one-third of
1:16:55them said that they were told by
1:16:57administrators not to take on
1:16:59controversial research so like
1:17:01extrapolating that out that's a huge
1:17:03number and the reason why you're not
1:17:04going to hear about a lot of these cases
1:17:06is because there are so many different
1:17:08Conformity inducing mechanisms in the
1:17:10whole thing yeah and that's one of the
1:17:12reasons why the idea that you'd add
1:17:14something like a d like requiring a Dei
1:17:16statement to be hired or to get into a
1:17:18school Under the current environment is
1:17:20so completely nuts we have had a genuine
1:17:23crisis of academic freedom over the last
1:17:25you know particularly since 2017 on
1:17:28campuses we have very low Viewpoint
1:17:30diversity to begin with and under these
1:17:33circumstances administrators to start
1:17:35saying you know what the problem is we
1:17:37have too much heterogeneous thought we
1:17:40have we're not homogeneous enough we
1:17:41actually need in we need another
1:17:44political litmus test which is nuts and
1:17:47that's what a Dei statement effectively
1:17:48is because there's no way to actually
1:17:50fill out a dais statement without
1:17:52someone evaluating you on your politics
1:17:54it's CR it's Crystal Clear we even did
1:17:57an experiment on this uh Nate Honeycutt
1:18:00he got something like almost like 3 000
1:18:02professors to participate evaluating
1:18:05different kinds of Dei statements
1:18:09um and one was basically like the
1:18:11standard kind of identity politics
1:18:13intersectionality one one was about
1:18:15Viewpoint diversity one was about
1:18:18religious diversity and one was about
1:18:20socioeconomic diversity as far as where
1:18:22my heart really is it's that we have too
1:18:24little socioeconomic diversity
1:18:26particularly in Elite higher ed but also
1:18:27in education period so we the experiment
1:18:31was
1:18:32a large participation really
1:18:34interestingly set up and it tried to
1:18:36model the way a lot of these Dei
1:18:37policies were actually implemented and
1:18:40one of the ways these have been
1:18:41implemented and I think in some of the
1:18:43California schools is that
1:18:44administrators and go through the Dei
1:18:47statements before
1:18:49anyone else looks at them and then
1:18:51eliminates people off the top depending
1:18:52on how
1:18:53they feel about their Dei statements and
1:18:57the one on
1:18:59um Viewpoint diversity I think like half
1:19:02of the people who reviewed it would
1:19:04eliminate it right out
1:19:06um and I think it was basically the same
1:19:07for religious diversity it was slightly
1:19:10better like 40
1:19:12um for socioeconomic diversity but that
1:19:15kills me like the idea that kind of like
1:19:16yeah that actually is the kind of
1:19:18diversity that I think we need a great
1:19:19deal more of in in higher education you
1:19:21can agree with it's not hostile to the
1:19:23other kinds by the way um but the idea
1:19:25that we need more people from the bottom
1:19:27you know of three quarters of American
1:19:30society like in uh higher education I
1:19:32think should be something we could all
1:19:33get around that the only one that really
1:19:35succeeded was the one that's that
1:19:37sprouted back exactly the kind of you
1:19:39know of ideology that that they thought
1:19:41the readers would like which is like
1:19:43okay
1:19:44there's no way this couldn't be a
1:19:45political litmus test we've proved that
1:19:48it's a political litmus test and still
1:19:49school after school it is adding these
1:19:52to its application process to make
1:19:54schools still more ideologically
1:19:56homogeneous why does that have a
1:19:58negative effect is it because
1:20:01it enforces a kind of group think where
1:20:04people are afraid
1:20:07start becoming afraid to sort of
1:20:10think and speak
1:20:12freely liberally about whatever but one
1:20:16it selects for people who tend to be you
1:20:19know farther to the left
1:20:20um in a situation where you already have
1:20:22uh people a situation where universities
1:20:24do lean decidedly that way but it also
1:20:27establishes essentially a set of sacred
1:20:29ideas that if you're being quizzed on
1:20:33whether or you know what you've done to
1:20:35advance anti-racism
1:20:38um inter uh uh how you've been conscious
1:20:40of intersectionality it's unlikely that
1:20:43you'd actually get in if you said by the
1:20:45way I actually think these are dubious
1:20:47Concepts I think they're thin I think
1:20:49they're philosophically not very
1:20:50defensible basically like if if your
1:20:52position was I actually I actually
1:20:54reject
1:20:56um these Concepts as being over simple
1:20:59um you're not you're not going to get in
1:21:00and and I think that um the person that
1:21:03I always think of that wasn't a
1:21:05right-winger that would be like go to
1:21:07hell if you if you made him fill one of
1:21:09these things out it's fine man I feel
1:21:11like if you get if you give one of these
1:21:12things to Richard Feynman he'd be like
1:21:14he would tear it to pieces
1:21:18yeah then not get the job
1:21:20[Music]
1:21:21yeah there's some element of it that
1:21:24creates this
1:21:26hard to pin down fear so you said like
1:21:28the firing the thing I wanted to say is
1:21:31firing a hundred people or 200 people
1:21:33the point is even firing one person I've
1:21:36just seen it it can create this quiet
1:21:39ripple effect of fear of course that
1:21:42single firing of a fact oh absolutely
1:21:44has a ripple effect across tens of
1:21:48thousands of people of educators of of
1:21:51uh who's hired what kind of
1:21:53conversations are being had had what
1:21:55kind of textbooks are chosen what kind
1:21:57of sell censorship and different flavors
1:21:59of that is happening it's hard to
1:22:01measure that yeah I mean when you ask
1:22:04professors about you know are they
1:22:05intimidated under the current
1:22:07environment
1:22:08um the answer is yes and particularly
1:22:11conservative professors you know already
1:22:13you know reporting that they're you know
1:22:16afraid for their jobs in a lot of
1:22:17different cases you have a lot of good
1:22:19statistics in the book things like
1:22:21self-censorship one provided with a
1:22:23definition of self-censorship at least a
1:22:25quarter students that they self-censor
1:22:27fairly often or very often during
1:22:28conversations with other students with
1:22:30professors and doing classroom
1:22:32discussions
1:22:3325 27 and 28 respectively a quarter of
1:22:38students also said that they are more
1:22:40likely to self-censor on campus now
1:22:42at the time they were surveyed then they
1:22:46were when they first started college so
1:22:48sort of college is kind of instilling
1:22:50this idea of of censorship of
1:22:53self-censorship and back to the Red
1:22:55Square comparison and this is one of the
1:22:56interesting things about the data as
1:22:58well is that that same study that I was
1:23:01talking about the most comprehensive
1:23:02study of the of the Red Scare there was
1:23:04polling about whether or not professors
1:23:06were self-censoring due to the fear of
1:23:08the environment
1:23:09and nine percent of professors said that
1:23:11they were self-censoring their research
1:23:13and what they were saying nine percent
1:23:15is really bad
1:23:17um that's almost a tenth of professors
1:23:19saying that they were actually their
1:23:21speech was chilled when we did this
1:23:23question for professors on our latest
1:23:26faculty survey when you factor together
1:23:29if they're we ask them are they
1:23:31self-censoring in their research are
1:23:32they self-centering in class are they
1:23:33still censoring online Etc it's 90 of
1:23:37professors so the the idea that we're
1:23:39actually in an environment that is
1:23:41historic um in terms of like how scared
1:23:44people are actually of expressing
1:23:46controversial views I think that it's
1:23:48it's the reason why we're going to
1:23:49actually be studying this in 50 years
1:23:52the same the the same way we study the
1:23:54Red Scare um it's not the idea that this
1:23:57isn't happening is will just be
1:23:58correctly viewed as insane so maybe we
1:24:01can just uh discuss the Leaning the
1:24:03current leaning of Academia towards the
1:24:06left which you describe in various
1:24:08different perspectives so one there's a
1:24:10voter registration ratio chart that you
1:24:13have by Department which I think is
1:24:14interesting
1:24:15can you explain this chart and can you
1:24:17explain what it shows yeah when I
1:24:19started fire in 2001 I didn't take the
1:24:22Viewpoint diversity issue as seriously I
1:24:25thought it was just something that right
1:24:25Wingers complained about
1:24:28um but I really started to get what
1:24:30happens when you have a community with
1:24:32low
1:24:34um with low uh Viewpoint diversity and
1:24:37actually a lot of the research that I
1:24:38got most interested in was uh done in
1:24:41conjunction with the great cast sunstein
1:24:43um who writes a lot about group
1:24:45polarization
1:24:46um because as and the research on this
1:24:48is very strong that essentially when you
1:24:50have groups with um political diversity
1:24:54and you can see this actually in judges
1:24:55for example it tends to produce you know
1:24:58reliably more moderate you know outcomes
1:25:00whereas groups that are that have low
1:25:03political diversity tend to sort of
1:25:04spiral Spiral off in their own Direction
1:25:06and when you have a super majority of
1:25:09people from just one political
1:25:11perspective that's a problem for the
1:25:13production of ideas it creates a
1:25:14situation where there are sacred ideas
1:25:17um and when you look at some of the
1:25:18Departments
1:25:19um you know I think the ask the estimate
1:25:22from the Crimson is that Harvard is has
1:25:23three percent conservatives but when you
1:25:25look at different departments there are
1:25:27Elite departments that have literally no
1:25:29um uh conservatives uh in them and I
1:25:31think that's that's on a healthy
1:25:33intellectual uh environment the problem
1:25:36is definitely worse
1:25:38um as you get more Elite uh we
1:25:39definitely see more cases of uh Lefty
1:25:42professors getting canceled at less
1:25:43Elite schools it it gets worse as you as
1:25:46you get down from the the elite schools
1:25:48that's where a lot of the one-third of
1:25:50attempts to get uh professors punished
1:25:52that are successful you know do do come
1:25:54from the right and largely from off
1:25:56campus uh off-campus sources and we
1:25:58spend a lot of time talking about that
1:26:00in in the book as well
1:26:02um it's something that I do think is
1:26:03underappreciated but when it comes to
1:26:05the low Viewpoint diversity it's you
1:26:07know it works out kind of like you'd
1:26:09expect to a degree you know economics is
1:26:12what four to one or something like that
1:26:13it's not as bad but then when you start
1:26:16getting into some of the humanities you
1:26:18know like there are departments that
1:26:19they're literally none
1:26:22is there a good why
1:26:24to why did the universities University
1:26:27faculty Administration move to the left
1:26:29yeah
1:26:30I don't love and this is an argument
1:26:32that you'll sometimes run into on the
1:26:34left uh just the argument that well
1:26:37people on the left are just smarter
1:26:38right and it's like okay it's
1:26:40interesting because at least the
1:26:42research as of
1:26:4310 years ago was indicating that if you
1:26:46dig a little bit deeper into that a lot
1:26:47of the people who do consider themselves
1:26:49on the left tend to be a little bit more
1:26:51libertarian there's something that
1:26:53Pinker you know wrote a fair amount
1:26:56about the idea that we're just smarter
1:26:58it it it is not an opinion I I'm at
1:27:03least bit comfortable with
1:27:04um I do think that that uh it that
1:27:06departments take on
1:27:08um momentum when they become a place
1:27:10where you're like wow it'd be really
1:27:12unpleasant for me to work in this
1:27:13department if I'm the token conservative
1:27:15and I think that takes on a life of its
1:27:17own there are also departments where a
1:27:20lot of the ideologies kind of explicitly
1:27:22leftist
1:27:25um you look at education schools a lot
1:27:26of the a lot of the stuff that is
1:27:28actually left over from what is
1:27:30correctly called critical race theories
1:27:32it is present and you end up having that
1:27:34in in a number of the Departments
1:27:37um and it would be very strange to be a
1:27:40in many departments a you know a
1:27:42conservative social worker Professor I'm
1:27:44sure they exist but
1:27:46it there's a lot of pressure to
1:27:49shut up if you are so the process on the
1:27:52left of cancellation as you started to
1:27:55talk about with the perfect rhetorical
1:27:56Fortress the the first step is
1:28:00dismiss a person if they're just if you
1:28:02can put a label of conservative on them
1:28:05you can dismiss them in that way what
1:28:07what other
1:28:08efficient or what other effective uh
1:28:11dismissal symptoms are there we have a
1:28:13little bit of fun with uh with
1:28:16demographic numbers but I run this by
1:28:18height and I remember him being kind of
1:28:20like I don't don't include the actual
1:28:22percentage I'm like no we need to
1:28:23include the actual percentages because
1:28:24people are really bad at estimating what
1:28:27what the demographics of the US actually
1:28:29looks like both the right and the left
1:28:31in different ways
1:28:33um so we put in the numbers and we talk
1:28:34about you know being dismissed for being
1:28:37white or being dismissed for uh being
1:28:39straight or being dismissed for being
1:28:41male
1:28:42um and we uh and you can already dismiss
1:28:44people for being conservative and we so
1:28:46we we give examples in the book of of
1:28:48these being used to dismiss people and
1:28:50oftentimes on topics not related to the
1:28:53fact that they are male or whether or
1:28:54not they're minority and then we get to
1:28:56I think it's like layer six and we're
1:28:58like surprise guess what you're down to
1:29:00point four percent of the population and
1:29:01none of it mattered because if you have
1:29:03the wrong opinion even if you're in that
1:29:05point four percent of the most
1:29:07intersectional person I've ever lived
1:29:08lived and you have the wrong opinion
1:29:09you're a heretic and you actually
1:29:11probably will be hated even more and the
1:29:14most interesting part of the research we
1:29:15did for this was just asking
1:29:18every prominent uh black conservative
1:29:21and moderate that that we knew
1:29:23personally have you been told that
1:29:25you're not really black for an opinion
1:29:28you had
1:29:29every single one of them was like oh
1:29:31yeah no and it's kind of funny because
1:29:32it's like oftentimes white lefties
1:29:34telling them that's like oh do you
1:29:36consider yourself black John McWhorter
1:29:38talked about having a reporter um when
1:29:40he talked about when he showed that he
1:29:42dissented from some of uh what he'd
1:29:44described as kind of like woke racism in
1:29:46his book woke ideas the reporter
1:29:49actually is like so do you consider
1:29:50yourself black he's like he's like what
1:29:52are you crazy of course I do and Coleman
1:29:54Hughes had one of the best quotes on it
1:29:56he said I'm constantly being told that
1:29:59the most important thing uh to the how
1:30:02legitimate my opinion is is whether uh
1:30:04whether or not I'm black but then when I
1:30:06have a dissenting opinion I get told I'm
1:30:08not really black so perfect like there's
1:30:12no way to falsify uh this argument
1:30:16um that one really that investigation
1:30:18really really struck me so and you lay
1:30:20this out really nicely in the book that
1:30:21there is this process of saying are you
1:30:23conservative yes you can dismiss the
1:30:26person are you white this Mr person are
1:30:30you male you can dismiss the person
1:30:31there's these categories that make it
1:30:34easier for you to dismiss a person's
1:30:37ideas based on that and like you said
1:30:38you end up in that tiny percentage and
1:30:40you can still dismiss and it's not just
1:30:41dismissed we talk about this from a from
1:30:44a practical standpoint the way the
1:30:46limitations on you know reality and one
1:30:48of them is time
1:30:49um and a lot of cancel culture
1:30:51um as as cultural norms as this way of
1:30:55winning arguments without winning
1:30:56arguments is about running out the clock
1:30:58because by the time you get down to the
1:31:00bottom of the uh of the or actually even
1:31:03to get a couple steps into the perfect
1:31:04rhetorical Fortress and you know where
1:31:06has the time gone you know like it
1:31:08you're you you probably just give up uh
1:31:12trying to uh you know trying to actually
1:31:13have the argument and you never get to
1:31:15the argument in the first place and all
1:31:16of these things are pretty sticky on
1:31:18social media social media and
1:31:20practically invented the perfect
1:31:21rhetorical Fortress so the each one of
1:31:23those stages has a virality to it yeah
1:31:25so it can it could stick and it can get
1:31:28people really excited it allows you feel
1:31:29outraged and superiority yeah because of
1:31:32that that at the scale of the virality
1:31:34allows you to never get to the actual
1:31:36discussion of the point
1:31:38um so but you know it's not just the
1:31:39left it's the right sure also so the
1:31:41efficient rhetorical Fortress
1:31:43uh so there something to be proud of on
1:31:46the right it's more efficient yeah uh so
1:31:49you don't have to listen to liberals and
1:31:51anyone can be labeled the liberal if if
1:31:53they have a wrong opinion
1:31:55I've seen liberal and left and leftists
1:31:57all used as a in the same kind of way
1:31:59yeah that's leftist nonsense you don't
1:32:03have to listen to experts yep even
1:32:05conservative experts if they have the
1:32:07wrong opinion
1:32:08you don't have to listen to journalists
1:32:10even conservative journalists if they
1:32:12have the wrong opinion and among the
1:32:14mega Wing there's a fourth proposition
1:32:17there's a fourth provision you don't
1:32:19need to listen to anyone who isn't
1:32:21pro-trump yeah and we call it efficient
1:32:24because it it eliminates a lot of people
1:32:26you probably should listen to at least
1:32:28sometimes you know like we we point out
1:32:30sometimes like how cancel culture can
1:32:31interfere with faith and expertise so we
1:32:34get kind of being a little suspicious of
1:32:36experts but at the same time if you
1:32:38follow that and you follow it
1:32:39mechanically and I definitely you know I
1:32:41think everybody in the US probably has
1:32:44some older Uncle who exercises some of
1:32:48these it is a really efficient way to
1:32:51sort of saw your uh to wall yourself off
1:32:53from the rest of the world and dismiss
1:32:55you know at least some people you really
1:32:56should be listening to the way you laid
1:32:59it out it made me realize that we just
1:33:01take up so much of our brain power
1:33:04these things it's literally time we
1:33:06could be solving things and you get like
1:33:08you kind of exhaust yourself through
1:33:10this process of being outraged based on
1:33:13these labels and you never get to
1:33:14actually
1:33:15there's almost not enough time for
1:33:17empathy for like looking at a person
1:33:18thinking well maybe they're right
1:33:20because you're so busy
1:33:22categorizing them and it's what's the
1:33:24fun and empathy and I mean what's so
1:33:26interesting about this is that
1:33:28so much
1:33:29um societal energy seems to be spent on
1:33:32these nasty Primal desires where
1:33:35essentially a lot of it's like please
1:33:37tell me who I'm allowed to hate
1:33:38where can I legitimately be cruel where
1:33:41can I actually exercise some aggression
1:33:43against somebody
1:33:45um and it seems to sometimes be just
1:33:47finding new justifications for that and
1:33:50it's an understandable you know human
1:33:52failing
1:33:54um that sometimes can be used to defend
1:33:56justice but again it will never get you
1:33:58anywhere near the truth
1:34:00uh one interesting case that you cover
1:34:02about expertises with covid yeah so how
1:34:06did cancer culture come into play on the
1:34:08topic of covid yeah I think that covid
1:34:12was a big blow to people's faith and
1:34:14expertise and cancel culture played a
1:34:16big role in that
1:34:18um I think one of the best examples of
1:34:19this is Jennifer say at Levi's
1:34:22um she is a lovely woman she was a vice
1:34:26president of Levi's she talked about
1:34:28actually potentially could be the
1:34:30president of Levi's jeans
1:34:31and she was a big advocate for kids and
1:34:36when they started shutting down the
1:34:37schools she started saying this is going
1:34:40to be a disaster this is going to hurt
1:34:43the poor and disadvantaged kids the most
1:34:47um we have to figure out a way to open
1:34:49the schools back up and that was such a
1:34:52heretical point of view and the typical
1:34:54kind of cancel culture uh wave took over
1:34:57is he had all sorts of you know
1:34:58petitions for her to be fired and that
1:35:00she needed to apologize and all this
1:35:01kind of stuff
1:35:02and you know she was offered I think
1:35:05like in a million dollar Severance which
1:35:07you wouldn't take because she wanted to
1:35:08tell the world what she thought about
1:35:10this and and that she wanted to continue
1:35:12saying
1:35:14um that she hadn't changed her mind that
1:35:16this was a disaster for young people and
1:35:18now that's kind of the conventional
1:35:21wisdom and the research is pretty it is
1:35:23quite clear that this was devastating to
1:35:26to particularly disadvantaged youth like
1:35:28people understand this now as being okay
1:35:30and she was probably right but one of
1:35:32the one of the really sad aspects of
1:35:34cancel culture is people forget why you
1:35:37were canceled and they just know they
1:35:39hate you
1:35:41um there's this lingering kind of like
1:35:42well I don't have to take them seriously
1:35:43anymore but by the way did you notice
1:35:45they happen to be right on something
1:35:46very important now one funny thing about
1:35:49freedom of speech
1:35:51freedom of speech wouldn't exist if you
1:35:52didn't also have the the right to say
1:35:54things that were wrong because if you
1:35:56can't you know engage an idea for you if
1:35:59you can't actually speculate you'll
1:36:01never actually get to something that's
1:36:02right in the first place but it's
1:36:04especially galling when people who are
1:36:06right were censored and you uh and never
1:36:10actually get the credit that they
1:36:11deserve
1:36:13well this might be a good place to ask a
1:36:15little bit more about the freedom of
1:36:16speech and
1:36:18so you said that included in the freedom
1:36:20of speech is to say things that are
1:36:22wrong yep
1:36:24um what is your perspective on hate
1:36:26speech
1:36:27hate speech
1:36:29is the best marketing campaign for
1:36:32censorship
1:36:34um and it came from Academia
1:36:36um of the of the 20th century and that
1:36:39when I talked about the anti-free speech
1:36:41movement uh that was one of their first
1:36:43inventions um there was a lot of talk
1:36:45about critical race Theory
1:36:46um and and being against critical race
1:36:48Theory and fire will sue if you say that
1:36:51people can't advocate for it or teach it
1:36:54or research it because you do absolutely
1:36:56have the right to to pursue it
1:36:58academically however every time someone
1:37:01mentions CRT they should also say the
1:37:04very first project of the people who
1:37:07founded CRT Richard Delgado Mary metzuda
1:37:11Etc
1:37:12was to go was to create this new
1:37:14category of unprotected speech called
1:37:15hate speech and to get it banned the
1:37:18person who enabled this drift of course
1:37:20was Herbert Marcus in 1965 you know
1:37:23basically questioning whether or not
1:37:24free speech should be a sacred value on
1:37:26the left and he was on the losing side
1:37:28for a really long time the Liberals you
1:37:31know the way I grew up that was
1:37:32basically being pro-free speech was
1:37:34synonymous with being a liberal but that
1:37:37started to be
1:37:39etched away on campus and the way it was
1:37:41was with with the idea of hate speech
1:37:43that essentially oh but you should um we
1:37:47can designate particularly bad speech as
1:37:50uh not protected
1:37:52um and and who's going to enforce it
1:37:54who's going to decide what hate speech
1:37:56actually is well it's usually
1:37:58overwhelmingly can only happen in an
1:38:00environment of really low Viewpoint
1:38:02diversity because you have to actually
1:38:03agree on on what the most hateful and
1:38:05wrong things are
1:38:07and there's a Bedrock principle
1:38:11um it's referred to this in a great case
1:38:13about flag burning in in the first
1:38:15amendment that I think all the world
1:38:16could benefit from You Can't Ban speech
1:38:19just because it's offensive it's too
1:38:22subjective it basically it's one of the
1:38:23reasons why the these uh kind of codes
1:38:25have been more happily adopted in places
1:38:28like Europe where they have a sense that
1:38:30there's like a modal German or a modal
1:38:32Englishman
1:38:33um and I think this is offensive and
1:38:34therefore I can say that this is this is
1:38:37wrong in a more
1:38:39Multicultural and in a genuinely more
1:38:41diverse country that's never actually
1:38:43had an honest thought that there is a
1:38:46single kind of American there's never
1:38:48been like we had the idea of Uncle Sam
1:38:50but that was always kind of a joke
1:38:52um Boston always knew it wasn't Richmond
1:38:54always knew it wasn't George I always
1:38:56knew it wasn't you know Alaska like
1:38:58we've always been a hodgepodge and we
1:39:00get in a society that diverse that
1:39:04You Can't Ban things simply because
1:39:06they're offensive
1:39:08um and that's that's one of the reasons
1:39:09why I hate speech is not an unprotected
1:39:11category of speech and I and I go
1:39:13further my theory on freedom of speech
1:39:16is slightly different than most other
1:39:17constitutional lawyers
1:39:19um and I think and I think that's
1:39:20partially because some of the ways some
1:39:22of these theories although a lot of them
1:39:24are really good are inadequate they're
1:39:26not expansive enough and I sometimes
1:39:29call my theory the pure informational
1:39:30theory of freedom of speech
1:39:32um or sometimes when I want to be fancy
1:39:34the lab and the Looking Glass Theory and
1:39:37its most important tenant is that there
1:39:39is that if the goal is the project of
1:39:42human knowledge which is to know the
1:39:44world it is you cannot know the world as
1:39:47it is without knowing what people really
1:39:50think and what people really think is an
1:39:52incredibly important fact to know so
1:39:55every time you're actually saying you
1:39:58can't say that you're actually depriving
1:40:00yourself of the knowledge of what people
1:40:01really think you're causing what Timmer
1:40:03Quran who's on our Board of advisors
1:40:05called preference falsification you end
1:40:08up with an inaccurate picture of the
1:40:09world which by the way in a lot of cases
1:40:12um because there are activists who want
1:40:14to restrict more speech they actually
1:40:16tend to think that people are more
1:40:17prejudiced than they uh than they might
1:40:19be and actually these kind of
1:40:21restrictions there was a book called
1:40:22racial paranoia
1:40:24um that came out in about 15 years ago
1:40:26that was making the point that the
1:40:28imposition of some of these codes can
1:40:30sometimes make people think that the
1:40:32only thing holding you back from being a
1:40:34raging racist are these codes so it must
1:40:37be really really bad it can actually
1:40:39make all these things worse and one
1:40:40which we talk about in the book one very
1:40:42real practical way it makes things worse
1:40:44is when you censor people it doesn't
1:40:47change their opinion it just encourages
1:40:50them to not share it with people who
1:40:52will get them in trouble so it leads
1:40:54them to talk to people who they already
1:40:55agree with and group polarization takes
1:40:58off so we have some interesting data in
1:41:01the book
1:41:02um about how driving people off of
1:41:04Twitter for example
1:41:06um you know in 2017 and then again I
1:41:09think in 2020 driving people to gab led
1:41:12to you know greater radicalization among
1:41:15those people it's a very predictable
1:41:16Force sensorship doesn't actually change
1:41:19people's minds and it pushes them in
1:41:20directions that actually
1:41:22by very you know solid research will
1:41:25actually make them more radicalized so
1:41:27yeah I think that the I think that the
1:41:29attempt to ban hate speech it doesn't
1:41:31really protect us from it but it gives
1:41:33the government
1:41:34such a vast uh weapon to use against us
1:41:37that we will
1:41:39regret giving them
1:41:41is there a ways to sort of to look at
1:41:43extreme cases to test this idea out a
1:41:46little bit so if you look on campus yeah
1:41:48what's your view about allowing say
1:41:52white supremacists on campus to do to do
1:41:55speeches okay KKK I think you should be
1:41:58able to study
1:42:00what people think and I think it's
1:42:02important that we actually do so I think
1:42:05that you know um let's take for example
1:42:07Q Anon yeah Q anon's wrong
1:42:11um but where did it come from why did
1:42:14they think that what's the motivation
1:42:15who taught them it who came up with
1:42:17these ideas this is important to
1:42:19understand history that's under
1:42:20important to understand modern American
1:42:22politics and so if you put your act if
1:42:26you put your scholar hat on and which
1:42:29you should be curious about kind of
1:42:31everyone about where they're coming from
1:42:33Daryl Davis who I'm sure you're familiar
1:42:36with part of his goal was just simply to
1:42:39get to know where people were coming
1:42:40from and in the process he actually
1:42:42de-radicalized a number of Clans members
1:42:44when they actually realized that this
1:42:46black man who would befriended them
1:42:48actually was compassionate was a decent
1:42:50person they realized all their
1:42:51preconceptions were wrong so it can have
1:42:53a de-radicalizing factor by the way but
1:42:55even when it doesn't it's still really
1:42:57important to know what the bad people in
1:42:59your Society think
1:43:01honestly in some ways it's for for your
1:43:04own safety it's probably more important
1:43:05to know what the bad people in your
1:43:07Society actually think I personally I
1:43:08don't know
1:43:09what you think about that but I
1:43:11personally think that freedom of speech
1:43:12in cases like that like KKK and campus
1:43:14can do more harm in the short term
1:43:18but much more benefit in the long term
1:43:21because you can sometimes argue for like
1:43:24this is going to hurt yeah in the short
1:43:26term but I mean Harvey said this is like
1:43:29consider the alternative yeah because
1:43:31you've just kind of made the case for
1:43:33like this potentially would be a good
1:43:35thing even in the short term and it
1:43:37often is I think especially in a stable
1:43:39Society like ours uh with a strong
1:43:42middle class all these kinds of things
1:43:43where people have like the Comforts The
1:43:45Reason through things yeah
1:43:47um but you know to me it's like even if
1:43:50it hurts in the short term even if it
1:43:52does create more hate in the short term
1:43:53the freedom of speech has this really
1:43:57beneficial thing which is it helps you
1:43:59move towards the truth the entirety of
1:44:01society towards a deeper more accurate
1:44:04understanding of life on Earth of
1:44:07society of how people function of ethics
1:44:11of metaphysics of everything yeah and
1:44:13that in the long term is a huge benefit
1:44:15it gets rid of the Nazis in the long
1:44:18term even if it adds to the number of
1:44:20Nazis in the short term yeah well and
1:44:22meanwhile just for for and the reality
1:44:24check part of this is people always
1:44:25bring up what about the clan on campus
1:44:27I'm like they're never invited
1:44:30um the the the I haven't seen a case
1:44:32where they've been invited
1:44:34um usually this the the clan argument
1:44:37gets thrown out when people are trying
1:44:39to excuse and that's why we shouted down
1:44:41Ben Shapiro right and that's why you
1:44:43can't have Bill Maher on campus that's
1:44:46why you know and it's like okay
1:44:48um you know and it's a it's a little bit
1:44:50of that what about ISM again about being
1:44:52like well that thing over there is
1:44:53terrible and therefore this comedian
1:44:55shouldn't come
1:44:56uh so I do have a question Maybe by way
1:44:59of advice sure you know interviewing
1:45:01folks and seeing this like like a
1:45:04podcast is a platform
1:45:06in deciding who to talk to or not that's
1:45:10something I have to come face to face
1:45:11with on occasion my natural inclination
1:45:14before I started the podcast was I would
1:45:16talk to anyone and including people
1:45:19which I'm still interested in who are
1:45:22you know the current members of the KKK
1:45:24and to me
1:45:26there's a responsibility to do that with
1:45:29skill yeah
1:45:31um and that responsibility has been
1:45:33weighing heavier and heavier on me
1:45:34because you realize how much skill it
1:45:37actually takes because you have to know
1:45:39to understand so much because I've I've
1:45:41come to understand that the devil is
1:45:44always going to be charismatic yeah
1:45:47um the devil's not gonna look like the
1:45:48devil and so you have to realize you
1:45:50have to you can't always
1:45:53come to the table with a deep compassion
1:45:56for another human being you have to have
1:45:58you know like 90 compassion and
1:46:00and another 90 percent deep historical
1:46:03knowledge about the context of the
1:46:05battles around this particular issue and
1:46:07that takes just a huge amount of effort
1:46:08but I don't know if there's thoughts you
1:46:11have about this how to
1:46:14handle speech
1:46:17um in a way
1:46:19without censoring bringing it to the
1:46:21surface but in a way that creates more
1:46:23love in the world I remember
1:46:26um Steve Bannon got disinvited from The
1:46:29New Yorker festival and Jim Carrey
1:46:32freaked out and all sorts of other
1:46:33people freaked out and he got disinvited
1:46:35um from from the and and I got invited
1:46:38to speak on Smerconish about this
1:46:40and I was saying like listen he
1:46:44you don't have people to your conference
1:46:47because you agree with them
1:46:49um like that's the the we have to get
1:46:51out of this idea that that's because
1:46:53they were trying to make it sound like
1:46:54that's an endorsement of Steve Bannon
1:46:55like that's nonsense like if you
1:46:57actually look at the opinions of all the
1:46:58people who are there you can't possibly
1:47:00endorse all the opinions that all these
1:47:02other people who are going to be there
1:47:03actually have and in the in the process
1:47:05of making that argument I got um and and
1:47:07also of course my the the very classic
1:47:10it's very valuable to know what
1:47:11someone's deep end thinks you should be
1:47:13curious about that and I remember
1:47:14someone arguing back saying well what
1:47:16would you want someone to interview a
1:47:18Jihadi and I'm like because we're at the
1:47:20moment like it was at the time when when
1:47:22Isis was really and going going for it
1:47:26um and I was like would you not want to
1:47:29go to a talk where someone was trying to
1:47:31figure out what makes some of these
1:47:32people tick um because and but that
1:47:34changes your framing that essentially
1:47:36it's like no it's curiosity it it is the
1:47:38is a cure for a lot of this stuff and we
1:47:40need a great deal more curiosity and a
1:47:43lot less unwarranted certainty and
1:47:44there's a question of like how do you
1:47:46conduct such conversations and um I feel
1:47:49deeply under qualified who do you think
1:47:52are especially good at that
1:47:53I feel like documentary filmmakers yeah
1:47:56usually do a much better job and the
1:47:58best job is usually done by biographers
1:48:00yeah so the more time you give to a
1:48:03particular conversation like really deep
1:48:06thought and historical context and
1:48:08studying the people how they think
1:48:09looking at all different perspectives
1:48:11looking at the psychology of the person
1:48:13yeah upbringing their parents their
1:48:15grandparents all of this the more time
1:48:17you spend with that uh the better
1:48:21the better the quality of the
1:48:23conversation is because you get to
1:48:25understand the
1:48:26you get to really empathize with the
1:48:28person with the people he or she
1:48:31represents yeah
1:48:32um and you get to see the common
1:48:33Humanity all of this and interviewers
1:48:36are often don't do that work yeah
1:48:40um so like the best stuff I've seen is
1:48:42interviews that are part of a
1:48:43documentary yeah but even now
1:48:45documentaries are like there's a huge
1:48:46incentive to do as quickly as possible
1:48:48yeah there's not an incentive to really
1:48:50spend time with the person there's a
1:48:52great new documentary about Floyd Abrams
1:48:54that I really recommend we did a
1:48:56documentary about Ira Glasser called
1:48:58Mighty Ira which was my video team and
1:49:02my protege Nico Perino and Chris Malby
1:49:05and Aaron Reese put it together and it
1:49:07just follows The Life and Times of
1:49:10um of Ira Glasser the former head of the
1:49:12ACLU he's uh if you could just Linger on
1:49:14that that's a fascinating story oh yeah
1:49:16amazing
1:49:18um Ira he wasn't a lawyer um he started
1:49:21working at the nyclu the New York civil
1:49:24liberties Union back in I think the 60s
1:49:26he was I think Robert Kennedy
1:49:28recommended that he go in that direction
1:49:32um and he became the president of the
1:49:34ACLU right at the time that they were
1:49:37um suffering from uh defending the Nazis
1:49:39at Skokie and Nico uh and and Aaron and
1:49:43Chris put together this and they'd never
1:49:45done a documentary before and it came
1:49:47out so so well
1:49:50um and it tells the story of the Nazis
1:49:52in Skokie it tells the story of the case
1:49:55around it tells the story of the ACLU at
1:49:57the time and what a great leader Ira
1:49:59Glasser was and what's one of the things
1:50:00that's so great is like when you get to
1:50:03see the Nazis at skogi they come off
1:50:06like the idiots that you would expect
1:50:08them to there's a moment when the when
1:50:10the Rally's not going very well and and
1:50:12the the leader gets uh flustered and it
1:50:15almost seems like he's gonna like shout
1:50:16out kind of like you're you're you're
1:50:17making this Nazi rally into a mockery
1:50:20and so it showed how actually allowing
1:50:23the Nazis to speak it's Skokie kind of
1:50:25took the wind out of their sails like if
1:50:27they had they the whole movement like
1:50:29everybody was kind of it all kind of
1:50:32dissolved after that because they looked
1:50:33like racist fools that they were they
1:50:36were you know even Blues Brothers made
1:50:38joke you know jokes about them and and
1:50:41it didn't turn into the disaster that
1:50:43people thought it was going to be just
1:50:44by letting them speak and Ira Glasser
1:50:46okay so he has
1:50:48this wonderful story about how Jackie
1:50:51Robinson joined the Brooklyn Dodgers and
1:50:54how there was a moment when it was
1:50:56seeing someone an African-American as on
1:50:59there literally on their team and how
1:51:01that really got them excited about the
1:51:04cause of racial equality and and that
1:51:06became a big part of what his life was
1:51:08and I just think of that such a great
1:51:10metaphor is expanding your circle and
1:51:14seeing more people as being quite
1:51:16literally on your team is the solution
1:51:18to so many of these problems and I worry
1:51:21that one that one of the things that is
1:51:22absolutely just a fact of life in
1:51:24America is like we do see each other
1:51:27more as enemy camps as opposed to people
1:51:29on the same team
1:51:30and that was actually something in the
1:51:32early days like me and will creely the
1:51:34legal director of fire wrote about the
1:51:36forthcoming Free Speech challenges of
1:51:38everyone being on Facebook and one thing
1:51:41that I was hoping was that as more
1:51:45people were exposing more of their lives
1:51:47we'd realize a lot of these things we
1:51:48knew intellectually like kids go to the
1:51:51bar and get drunk and do stupid things
1:51:54um that uh that when we started seeing
1:51:57the evidence of them doing stupid things
1:51:59that we might be shocked at first but
1:52:01then eventually get more sophisticated
1:52:03and be like well come on people are like
1:52:04that that never actually really seemed
1:52:06to happen
1:52:07um that that I don't think that I think
1:52:09that there are plenty of things we know
1:52:11about human nature and we know about
1:52:12dumb things people say uh and we've
1:52:15we've made it into an environment where
1:52:19there's just someone out there waiting
1:52:21to be kind of like
1:52:22oh remember that dumb thing you said we
1:52:24were 14. well I'm going to make sure
1:52:25that you don't get into the to your
1:52:27dream school because of that that's
1:52:28offense archeology yeah that's not my
1:52:30term though oh it's a great job that's a
1:52:32great term we steal from the best
1:52:34digging through someone's past comments
1:52:36to find a speech that hasn't aged well
1:52:38and that one's tactical like that that
1:52:40one isn't just someone not being
1:52:41empathetic they're like I'm gonna punish
1:52:43you uh for this or and that's one of the
1:52:45reasons why I got depressed writing this
1:52:47book because you know it's already
1:52:49there's already people who don't love me
1:52:51because of God like the American mind
1:52:52usually based on a misunderstanding of
1:52:54what we actually said in coddling in the
1:52:56American mind but nonetheless uh but on
1:52:58this one you know like I'm calling out
1:53:00people for being very cruel in a lot of
1:53:04cases but put but one thing that was
1:53:06really scary about studying a lot of
1:53:09these cases is that once you have that
1:53:10Target on your back what they're going
1:53:12to try to cancel you for could be
1:53:14anything you know they might go back
1:53:16into your old uh your your old boats
1:53:18find something that you said in 1995 you
1:53:21know you know do something
1:53:23um where essentially it looks like it's
1:53:25this entire other thing but really what
1:53:28they're what's going on is they didn't
1:53:29like your opinion they didn't like your
1:53:31point of view on something and they're
1:53:32gonna find a find a way that from now on
1:53:34anytime your name comes up it's like oh
1:53:36remember this this thing I didn't like
1:53:38about them and it's again it's cruel it
1:53:41doesn't get you anywhere closer to the
1:53:42truth and but it is a little scary to
1:53:44stick your neck out
1:53:46okay in terms of solutions yeah I'm
1:53:48gonna ask you a few things so one
1:53:51uh parenting yeah
1:53:53five and seven year old
1:53:56so I'm sure you've figured it all out
1:53:57then oh God no from a free speech
1:54:00perspective yeah from a free speech
1:54:02culture perspective how to be a good
1:54:04parent yeah
1:54:06I think the First Quality you should be
1:54:09cultivating in your children if you want
1:54:11to have a free speech culture
1:54:13is curiosity
1:54:15and an awareness of the vastness that
1:54:19will always be unknown and getting my
1:54:22kids excited about the idea that's like
1:54:26and it's fast
1:54:29siding and endless and will never make a
1:54:32big dent in it but the journey will be
1:54:34amazing but only fools think they know
1:54:38everything
1:54:39um and sometimes dangerous fools at that
1:54:42so giving the sense of intellectual
1:54:44humility early on being also you know
1:54:47saying things that actually do sound
1:54:49kind of old-fashioned like but I say
1:54:51things to my kids like listen
1:54:53if you
1:54:55enjoy study and work both things that I
1:54:58very much enjoy I do for fun
1:55:01um your life is going to feel great and
1:55:03it's going to feel easy
1:55:05um so some some you know some of those
1:55:06old-fashioned virtues are things I try
1:55:08to preach
1:55:09um counterintuitive stuff like outdoor
1:55:11time playing having time that are not
1:55:14intermediated experiences is really is
1:55:17really important
1:55:18and little things like I talk about in
1:55:22the book about when my kids are watching
1:55:24something that's scary and I'm not
1:55:26talking about like zombie movies you
1:55:28know I'm talking about like you know a
1:55:30cartoon that has kind of a scary moment
1:55:32and saying that they want to turn the TV
1:55:34off and I and I talk to them and I say
1:55:36listen
1:55:37I'm gonna sit next to you and we're
1:55:39gonna finish this show
1:55:40and I want you to tell me what you think
1:55:43of of this afterwards and I sat next to
1:55:46my sons
1:55:48um and by the end of it every single
1:55:50time I you know when I asked them was it
1:55:52as scary as you thought it was going to
1:55:53be
1:55:54and there was like no daddy that was
1:55:56fine and I'm like that's one of the
1:55:57great lessons in life the fear that you
1:56:00don't
1:56:00go through becomes much bigger in your
1:56:03head than actually simply facing it
1:56:05that's one of the reasons why I'm
1:56:06fighting back against this culture I
1:56:07love you know for all of our kids to be
1:56:09able to grow up in an environment where
1:56:11people give you Grace and you know
1:56:14accept the fact that sometimes people
1:56:16are going to say things that piss you
1:56:17off take seriously the possibility be
1:56:19wrong and and uh be curious well I'm I
1:56:22have hope that the thing you mentioned
1:56:24which is because so much of young
1:56:26people's stuff is on the internet that
1:56:29they're going to give each other a break
1:56:30because then everybody's kids are worthy
1:56:33Generation Z hates cancel culture the
1:56:35most and that's another reason why it's
1:56:37like people still claiming this is even
1:56:39happening it's kind of like no you
1:56:40actually can ask you know kids what they
1:56:42think of cancer culture and they hate it
1:56:44yeah well I kind of think of them as
1:56:46like the immune system that's like
1:56:47that's the culture waking up to like
1:56:50that this is not a good thing I I am
1:56:52glad though I mean I I I'm one of those
1:56:54kids who you know is really glad that I
1:56:57was a little kid in the 80s and a
1:56:58teenager in the 90s because having
1:57:01everything potentially online uh it's
1:57:03it's not a an upbringing a Envy well I
1:57:07because you can also do the absolute
1:57:10free speech
1:57:11I like leaning into it yeah where I hope
1:57:16her future where a lot of our
1:57:19insecurities flaws
1:57:21everything's out there yeah and to be
1:57:24raw honest with it uh I think that leads
1:57:28to a better world because the flaws are
1:57:29beautiful I mean that's the flaws as the
1:57:32uh the basic ingredients of human
1:57:33connection uh Robert Wright he wrote a
1:57:36book on on Buddhism
1:57:38um and I talked about trying to use
1:57:40social media from a from a Buddhist
1:57:42perspective and like as if you're as if
1:57:45it's the collective unconscious
1:57:46meditating
1:57:47and seeing those little like Angry bits
1:57:51that are trying to cancel you or get you
1:57:53to shut up and just kind of like letting
1:57:55them go the same way you're supposed to
1:57:57watch your thoughts kind of Trail off I
1:57:59would love to see that like visualized
1:58:01whatever the whatever the drama going on
1:58:04going on just seeing the Sea of it of
1:58:07the collective Consciousness just
1:58:09processing this and having a little like
1:58:11panic attack it's just kind of like yeah
1:58:14breathing it in look look at the little
1:58:16sort of hateful angry voices kind of pop
1:58:17up and be like okay there you are and
1:58:20I'm still focused on on that thing
1:58:21because that is that that is one of the
1:58:24things is
1:58:25okay yeah actually this is probably late
1:58:27in the game to be to giving my grand
1:58:29theory on this stuff
1:58:31um but uh never too late so so what I
1:58:36was studying um in law school when I ran
1:58:38out of First Amendment classes um I
1:58:40decided to study censorship during the
1:58:42tutor Dynasty uh because that's where we
1:58:44get our ideas of prior restraint uh that
1:58:46come from the licensing of the printing
1:58:49press which was something that Henry
1:58:50VIII was the first to do where basically
1:58:53um the idea was that if you can't print
1:58:55anything in England unless it's with
1:58:57these uh your majesty approved printers
1:59:02um it will prevent heretical work and
1:59:04anti-henry VII stuff from coming out
1:59:06yeah pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty
1:59:08pretty
1:59:10um efficient idea of nothing else
1:59:13um and I always and so he started
1:59:15getting angry at the printing press
1:59:16around 1521 and then passed something
1:59:19um that required prince prince to be
1:59:21along with parliament in in 1538
1:59:24uh and I always think of that as kind of
1:59:27like where we are now
1:59:28um because we have this we have the back
1:59:31then we had the original disruptive
1:59:32technology you know writing was probably
1:59:34really bad but the next one which which
1:59:36was the printing press which was
1:59:37absolutely calamitous and I mean and I
1:59:39and I say calamitous on purpose because
1:59:41in the short term the witch hunts went
1:59:44up like crazy because the printing press
1:59:46allowed you to get that manual and how
1:59:48to find witches
1:59:50um that the religious wars went crazy
1:59:52um it led to all sorts of distress
1:59:55misinformation nastiness
1:59:58and Henry VII was trying to put the
2:00:00genie back in the bottle you know he was
2:00:01kind of like I I can I can I want to use
2:00:04this for good like uh like I feel like
2:00:06it could it could be used
2:00:07but he was in an unavoidable period of
2:00:11epistemic Anarchy there's nothing you
2:00:14can do to make the period after the
2:00:16printing press come uh came out to be a
2:00:19non-disruptive non-crazy period other
2:00:21than like absolute totalitarianism and
2:00:24destroy all the print presses which
2:00:26would simply was not possible in Europe
2:00:28so I feel like that's kind of like where
2:00:30we are now that disruption came from
2:00:33adding I think you know several million
2:00:35people to the European conversation and
2:00:37then eventually the global conversation
2:00:38but eventually it became the best tool
2:00:42for discomformation
2:00:44um for getting rid of falsity for
2:00:46spotting bad ideas and it's the benefits
2:00:49the long-term benefits of the printing
2:00:52press are incalculally great
2:00:56um and that's what gives me some
2:00:57optimism for where we are now with
2:00:59social media because we are in that
2:01:01unavoidably anarchical period And I do
2:01:03worry that that there um uh that there
2:01:06are attempts and states to pass things
2:01:07to try to put the genie back in the
2:01:09bottle like if we ban a tick tock or we
2:01:11uh say that
2:01:13um nobody under 18 can be on on the
2:01:16internet unless they have parental
2:01:17permission we're going at something that
2:01:21no amount of sort of top down is going
2:01:24to be able to fix it we have to
2:01:26culturally adapt to the fact of it
2:01:30in ways that make us wiser that actually
2:01:34um and allow it potentially to be that
2:01:37wonderful engine for disconfirmation
2:01:39that we're nowhere near yet by the way
2:01:41but think about it additional millions
2:01:44of eyes on problems um thanks to the
2:01:47printing press helped create the
2:01:48Scientific Revolution the enlightenment
2:01:50the discovery of ignorance
2:01:53um
2:01:53we now have added billions of eyes and
2:01:57voices to solving problems and we're
2:01:59just we're using them for cat videos and
2:02:00canceling
2:02:02but that those are just the early days
2:02:04of the printing press it all starts with
2:02:07the cats and the canceling is there
2:02:09something about X about Twitter
2:02:12which is perhaps the most uh energetic
2:02:15source of cats and canceling it seems
2:02:18like the collective unconscious of the
2:02:19species I mean like
2:02:21it's one of these things where the
2:02:23tendency to want to see patterns in
2:02:26history sometimes can limit
2:02:30the actual batshit crazy experience of
2:02:33what history actually is because yes we
2:02:35we have these nice comforting ideas that
2:02:37it's going to be like last time we don't
2:02:39know it it it it hasn't happened yet and
2:02:42I think how unusual Twitter is because I
2:02:46think of it as like the uh because
2:02:49because people talk about you know
2:02:51writing and mass communications and uh
2:02:55as being expanding the size of our
2:02:57Collective brain but now we're kind of
2:03:00looking at our Collective brain in real
2:03:01time and it's filled just like our own
2:03:04brains with all sorts of like little
2:03:05crazy things that pop up and and and
2:03:07appear like virtual particles kind of
2:03:10all over the place of people
2:03:12um you know reacting in real time to
2:03:15things there's never been anything even
2:03:17vaguely like it and it can be at its
2:03:20worst awful to see at its best sometimes
2:03:23seeing people like just getting euphoric
2:03:26over something going on and cracking
2:03:28absolutely brilliant immediate jokes you
2:03:30know at the same time it can be it can't
2:03:33even be a joyful experience
2:03:35um I I feel like uh and uh I live in a
2:03:39neighborhood now on X where I I mostly
2:03:42deal with people that I I think are
2:03:44actually thoughtful even if I disagree
2:03:45with them
2:03:46um and and it's not such a bad
2:03:48experience I occasionally run into those
2:03:50other sort of what I call neighborhoods
2:03:52on X where it's just all canceling all
2:03:55nastiness and it's always kind of an
2:03:56unpleasant visit to those places I'm not
2:03:58saying the whole thing needs to be uh
2:04:01like like my experience but I do think
2:04:03that the reason why people keep on
2:04:06coming back to it is it reveals raw
2:04:08aspects of humanity that sometimes we
2:04:10prefer to pretend don't exist
2:04:13yeah but also it's totally new like you
2:04:15said yeah it's just the virality the
2:04:17speed the news travels that opinions
2:04:19travel that the battle over ideas
2:04:21travels the battle over information too
2:04:23yeah of what is true and not lies travel
2:04:26the little Mark Twain thing pretty fast
2:04:28on the thing yeah and then it changes
2:04:31your understanding of how to interpret
2:04:33information it could also stress you out
2:04:36you know and I remember to get off it
2:04:38sometimes the stats are pretty bad on
2:04:40Mental Health uh with with young people
2:04:43and I'm definitely in the camp of people
2:04:44who think that social media is part of
2:04:46that I understand you know the debate
2:04:48but I'm pretty persuaded that one of the
2:04:50things that is hasn't been great for
2:04:51mental health I mean of people is is
2:04:54just constantly being exposed yeah
2:04:57absolutely I I think it's possible to
2:04:59create social media that makes a huge
2:05:02amount of money makes people happy to me
2:05:04like it's possible to align yeah the the
2:05:07incentives so in terms of yeah making
2:05:10teenagers making uh every stage of life
2:05:13giving you long-term fulfillment and
2:05:15happiness with your physical existence
2:05:17outside of the social media and on
2:05:19social media helping you grow as a human
2:05:21being helping challenge you just in the
2:05:23right amount and just the right amount
2:05:25of cat videos whatever gives this full
2:05:28Rich Human Experience I think it's just
2:05:31a machine learning problem it's like
2:05:33it's not easy to create a feed so the
2:05:36easiest feed you could do is like
2:05:38maximize engagement yeah but that's just
2:05:40like a really dumb algorithm yeah it's
2:05:42like for the for the algorithm to learn
2:05:45enough about you to understand what will
2:05:49make you truly happy as a human being to
2:05:51grow long term that's just a very
2:05:53difficult problem to solve you ever
2:05:55watch fleabag it's absolutely brilliant
2:05:58uh British show
2:06:00um and it sets you up one of the reasons
2:06:02why like people love it so much is it
2:06:03sets you up that you're watching like a
2:06:05a raunchy British Sex in the City except
2:06:08the main character is the the most
2:06:10promiscuous one
2:06:12um it's like okay and you kind of roll
2:06:14your eyes a little bit it's kind of
2:06:15funny and it's kind of cute and kind of
2:06:18spicy
2:06:19and then you realize that the person is
2:06:21actually kind of suffering and having a
2:06:23hard time and it gets deeper and deeper
2:06:27as the show goes on and she will do
2:06:29these incredible speeches about tell me
2:06:32what to do like I just I know there's
2:06:34experts out there I know there's
2:06:35knowledge out there I know there's an
2:06:37optimal way to live my life so why can't
2:06:40someone just tell me what to do and and
2:06:42it's this wonderfully like
2:06:46um
2:06:47accurate I think uh aspect of human
2:06:50desire that what if something could
2:06:52actually tell me the optimal way to go
2:06:54because I think there is a desire to
2:06:57give up some amount of your own freedom
2:06:59and discretion in order to be told to do
2:07:02the optimally right thing but that path
2:07:05scares me to death yeah we see the way
2:07:08you phrase it that's it miscares me too
2:07:10so there's several things one you could
2:07:12be constantly distracted in a tick tock
2:07:15Way by things that keep you engaged yeah
2:07:17so removing that and giving you a bunch
2:07:21of options constantly and learning from
2:07:24long term what results in your actual
2:07:28long-term happiness so like which
2:07:30amounts of challenging ideas are good
2:07:33for you uh that you know for somebody
2:07:36like me
2:07:38just for but there is a number like that
2:07:40for you yeah Greg like for me that
2:07:43number is pretty high I love debate I
2:07:47love I I love the feeling of like
2:07:49realizing holy I've been wrong yes
2:07:52but like you know and I would love for
2:07:54the algorithm to know that about me and
2:07:56to help me but always giving me options
2:07:58if I want to descend into cat videos and
2:08:01so on well the educational aspect of it
2:08:03yes educational yes like the idea of
2:08:05kind of like both going the speed that
2:08:07you need to and running as fast as you
2:08:08can yeah you know I mean there's that
2:08:10you know the whole flow thing I just
2:08:12feel it YouTube recommendation
2:08:14for for better or worse if used
2:08:17correctly it feels like it does a pretty
2:08:19good job whenever I just refuse to click
2:08:22on stuff that's just dopamine based and
2:08:24click on only educational things yeah
2:08:26the recommendation provides are really
2:08:28damn good so I feel like it's a solvable
2:08:32problem at least in this in the space of
2:08:34Education of challenging yourself but
2:08:36also expanding your realm of knowledge
2:08:38and all this kind of stuff and I'm
2:08:39definitely more in the we're an
2:08:40inescapably anarchical period and it
2:08:43will require big cultural adjustments
2:08:45and there's gonna there's no way that
2:08:47this isn't going to be difficult
2:08:48transition is there any specific little
2:08:50or big things that you would like to see
2:08:52X do Twitter do I have lots of thoughts
2:08:56on that with the printing press and
2:08:58extra millions of eyes on any problem
2:09:00can tear down any institution any any
2:09:02person or any idea and that's good in
2:09:04some ways because a lot of medievals
2:09:05Institutions needed to be torn down and
2:09:07some people did too and a lot of ideas
2:09:09need to be torn down same thing is true
2:09:11now and extra billions of eyes on every
2:09:14problem can tear down any person ID or
2:09:16institution
2:09:17um and some again some of those things
2:09:19needed to be torn down but it can't
2:09:21build yet we are not at the stage that
2:09:23can build yet but it has shown us how
2:09:25thin our knowledge was it's one of the
2:09:27reasons why we're also aware of the
2:09:28replication crisis it's one of the
2:09:30reasons why we're also aware of how kind
2:09:31of shoddy our research is how much our
2:09:34expert class is arrogant in many cases
2:09:37but people don't want to live in a world
2:09:39where they don't have uh people that
2:09:42they respect and they can look at and I
2:09:44think what's happening uh possibly now
2:09:49um but we'll we'll continue to happen as
2:09:50people are going to establish themselves
2:09:51as being high integrity that they will
2:09:53always be honest I think you are
2:09:55establishing yourself as someone who who
2:09:56is high integrity where that where they
2:09:59can trust that person a fire wants to be
2:10:01um you know the institution that people
2:10:02can come to us like if it's free speech
2:10:04we will defend it period And I think
2:10:07that people need new uh need to have
2:10:10authorities that they can actually trust
2:10:12and I think that if you actually had a
2:10:14stream that maybe people can watch in
2:10:16action but not flood with you know
2:10:19stupid cancel culture stuff or or dumb
2:10:21cat means where it is actually a serious
2:10:23discussion bounded around rules no
2:10:25perfect Patrol Fortress no efficient
2:10:27rhetorical Fortress none of the the BS
2:10:29ways we debate I think you could start
2:10:32to actually create something that could
2:10:34actually be a major Improvement in the
2:10:36in the in the speed with which we come
2:10:38up with new better ideas and establish
2:10:39and and separate truth from falsity yeah
2:10:42if it's done well it can inspire a large
2:10:45number of people to become higher and
2:10:46higher integrity and it can create
2:10:48Integrity as a value to strive for yeah
2:10:51and like you know there's been projects
2:10:53throughout the internet that have done
2:10:56an incredible job of that but have been
2:10:58also very flawed like Wikipedia is an
2:11:00example of a big leap forward in doing
2:11:03that it's pretty damn impressive what's
2:11:05your overall take I mean I I'm mostly
2:11:07impressed so there's a few really
2:11:09powerful ideas for the people who edit
2:11:12Wikipedia one of which is each editor
2:11:16kind of for themselves declares
2:11:18you know I'm into politics and I really
2:11:22kind of a left-leaning guy so I really
2:11:25shouldn't be editing political articles
2:11:28because I have bias so they're great
2:11:30they declare their biases and they often
2:11:31do a good job of actually declaring the
2:11:33biases but there will still like they'll
2:11:37find a way to justify themselves like
2:11:39something will piss them off yeah and
2:11:41they want to correct it because they
2:11:43they love correcting untruth into truth
2:11:46but the perspective of what is true or
2:11:48not is affected by their bias Ruth is
2:11:50hard to know and I and and it is true
2:11:53that there is a left-leaning bias on the
2:11:55editors of Wikipedia so for that what
2:11:59happens is on articles which I mostly
2:12:01appreciate that don't have a political
2:12:04aspect to them you know
2:12:07um scientific articles or uh technical
2:12:10articles they can be really strong even
2:12:13history just describing the facts of
2:12:15history that don't have a subjective
2:12:17element a strong also just using my own
2:12:20brain I can kind of filter out if it's
2:12:24uh you know if it's something about
2:12:25January 6th or something like this I
2:12:27know I'm going to be like I'm not
2:12:29whatever's going on here I'm gonna kinda
2:12:31read it but most I'm gonna look to other
2:12:33source I'm going to look to a bunch of
2:12:35different perspectives on it's going to
2:12:37be very tense there's probably going to
2:12:39be some kind of bias maybe some
2:12:41wording will be such which is one where
2:12:44this is where Wikipedia does its thing
2:12:47the way they word stuff uh will be
2:12:50biased the choice of words but the what
2:12:53Wikipedia editors themselves are so
2:12:55self-reflective they literally have
2:12:57articles describing these very effects
2:12:59of how you can use words to inject bias
2:13:02yeah in in all the ways that you talk
2:13:05about it that's not healthier than most
2:13:07environments it's incredibly healthy but
2:13:09I think you could do better one of the
2:13:11big flaws of Wikipedia to me that
2:13:13Community uh notes on X does better is
2:13:17the accessibility of becoming an editor
2:13:20um is it's difficult to become an editor
2:13:22and it's not as visible the process of
2:13:25editing so I would love like you said a
2:13:27stream yeah everyone to be able to
2:13:29observe this debate between people with
2:13:33Integrity of when they discuss things
2:13:35like January Stakes a very controversial
2:13:37topics to see how the processes the
2:13:40debate goes as opposed to being hidden
2:13:43in the shadows which currently is in
2:13:44Wikipedia you can access that it's just
2:13:46hard to access but and I've also seen
2:13:49how they will use certain articles like
2:13:52on certain people like articles about
2:13:54people have learned to trust less and
2:13:56less yeah because they'll literally will
2:13:58use those to make personal attacks and
2:14:01this is something you write about
2:14:02they'll use uh descriptions of different
2:14:05controversies to paint a picture of a
2:14:07person that's
2:14:09that doesn't to me at least feel like an
2:14:11accurate representation of the person
2:14:13it's like writing an article about
2:14:15Einstein mentioning something about uh
2:14:19theory of relativity and saying that he
2:14:20was a womanizer and abuser and a like
2:14:23controversy you know yeah he is Feynman
2:14:27also you know not you know was that you
2:14:29know they're not exactly the perfect
2:14:31human in terms of women but like there's
2:14:34other aspects to this human and to
2:14:37capture that human properly there's a
2:14:39certain way to do it I think Wikipedia
2:14:41will often lean they really try to be
2:14:44self-reflective and
2:14:46try to stop this but they will lean into
2:14:48the drama if it matches the bias yeah
2:14:52but again
2:14:53much better than the world I believe is
2:14:56much better
2:14:58uh because Wikipedia exists but
2:15:00now that we're in these adolescent
2:15:03stages we're growing and trying to come
2:15:04up with different Technologies the idea
2:15:06of a stream yeah is really really
2:15:08interesting as you get more and more
2:15:10people into this discourse that where
2:15:13the value is let's try to get the truth
2:15:16yeah
2:15:17yeah and that basically you know you get
2:15:19the little cards for nope wrong nope
2:15:21wrong and the different the different
2:15:23rhetorical techniques that are being
2:15:25used to avoid actually discussing yeah
2:15:26and I think I actually can make it a
2:15:28little bit Fun by you get a limited
2:15:29number of them
2:15:30um you know it's kind of like you get
2:15:32three what about some cards it's a
2:15:34gamifying the whole thing uh absolutely
2:15:36yeah uh let me ask you about
2:15:39uh so you mentioned going to some
2:15:41difficult moments in your life or
2:15:43um
2:15:44what what has been your experience with
2:15:46uh with depression what has been your
2:15:49experience getting out of it overcoming
2:15:51it
2:15:51yeah I mean the whole thing the whole
2:15:54journey
2:15:55um uh with coddling the American mind
2:15:57began with me
2:15:59um
2:15:59in the at the Belmont psychiatric
2:16:02facility in Philadelphia back in 2007. I
2:16:05had called 9-1-1 In a Moment of clarity
2:16:09because I'd gone to the uh the hardware
2:16:11store to
2:16:12um
2:16:13make sure that when I killed myself that
2:16:15I it stuck I wanted to make sure that I
2:16:17you know had my head wrapped and
2:16:18everything so like if all the drugs I
2:16:21was planning to take didn't work that I
2:16:22wouldn't be able to you know claw my way
2:16:23out
2:16:25it'd been a really rough year and I
2:16:28always had issues with depression
2:16:30um but they were getting worse
2:16:32and frankly one of the reasons why this
2:16:33cancel culture stuff is so um important
2:16:36to me is that
2:16:38the thing that I didn't emphasize as
2:16:40much in cuddling the American mind which
2:16:41by the way that description that I give
2:16:43of trying to kill myself was the first
2:16:45time I'd ever written it down nobody in
2:16:47my family was aware
2:16:49um of how of it being like that my wife
2:16:52had never seen it and basically the only
2:16:53way I was able to write that was by by
2:16:55doing you know how you can kind of trick
2:16:57yourself if
2:16:58um and I was like I'm going to convince
2:17:00myself that this is just between me and
2:17:02my computer and nobody will see it it's
2:17:04probably not the most public thing I've
2:17:05ever written
2:17:07um but what I didn't emphasize in that
2:17:09was how much the culture War played into
2:17:11how depressed I got because I was
2:17:14originally legal director of fire then I
2:17:15became president of fire in 2005 moved
2:17:18to Philadelphia is where I get depressed
2:17:20um and uh and just I don't have family
2:17:22there there's something about the town
2:17:24they don't seem to like me very much
2:17:27um but the main thing was being in the
2:17:29culture world all the time
2:17:30um there was a girl that I was dating
2:17:33um I remember you know she didn't seem
2:17:35to really approve what I did and a lot
2:17:36of people didn't really seem to and
2:17:38meanwhile like I was defending people on
2:17:40the left all the time and they'd be like
2:17:43oh that's good that you're finding
2:17:44someone on the left but they still would
2:17:45never forgive me for defending someone
2:17:46on the right and I remember saying at
2:17:49one point I'm like listen I'm like I'm
2:17:50I'm a True Believer in this stuff I'm
2:17:52willing to defend Nazis I'm certainly
2:17:54willing to defend Republicans
2:17:56and she actually said I think
2:17:58Republicans might be worse
2:18:00um and that didn't that really shouldn't
2:18:03go very well and then I nearly gotten
2:18:05fist fights a couple times with with
2:18:06people on the right um because they
2:18:08found out I defended people who crack
2:18:10jokes about 9 11. like this happened
2:18:12more than once I'm not you know by that
2:18:14time I'm in my 20s I'm not fist fighting
2:18:16again
2:18:18um but yeah it was always like that you
2:18:20you see how hypocritical people people
2:18:22compete you can see how friends can turn
2:18:24on you if they don't like your politics
2:18:26so I got an early preview of this of of
2:18:30of what the culture we're heading into
2:18:32by being the president of fire and it
2:18:34was exhausting
2:18:36um and that was one of the main things
2:18:39that led me to be you know suicidally
2:18:41depressed uh at the Belmont Center if
2:18:44you told me that that would be the
2:18:45beginning of a new and better life for
2:18:48me I would have laughed if I could have
2:18:50but I would you know I don't I you can
2:18:52tell I'm okay if I'm still laughing and
2:18:54I wasn't laughing
2:18:55um at that point
2:18:56so um I got a doctor and I started doing
2:19:00cognitive behavioral therapy I started
2:19:02having all these voices in my head that
2:19:05were catastrophizing and
2:19:08um you know engaging over over
2:19:10generalization and
2:19:12um uh fortune telling you know uh mind
2:19:14reading all of these things that they
2:19:16teach you not to do and it and what that
2:19:19what you do when CBT is essentially you
2:19:21you have something makes you upset and
2:19:25then you just write down what the
2:19:26thought was
2:19:27um and you know something minor could
2:19:29happen in your response was you know
2:19:31like um well the date didn't seem to go
2:19:34very well
2:19:35um and that's because I'm broken and
2:19:36will die alone and you're like okay okay
2:19:38what what are what are the following you
2:19:41know uh that's catastrophizing that's
2:19:42mind reading that's a fortune telling
2:19:44that's all the stuff
2:19:46um and you have to do this several times
2:19:48a day
2:19:49forever I actually need to brush up on
2:19:51it at the moment
2:19:52um and it slowly over time voices in my
2:19:56head that have been saying horrible you
2:19:58know horrible internal talk it just
2:20:01didn't sound as convincing anymore which
2:20:03was a really kind of like subtle effect
2:20:05like it was just kind of like oh wait I
2:20:07don't buy that I'm broken you know like
2:20:09that doesn't sound true that doesn't
2:20:11sound like truth from God like like it
2:20:14used to
2:20:15and nine months after I was
2:20:18planning to kill myself I was probably
2:20:20happier than I'd been in a decade
2:20:22um and that was one of the things that
2:20:26you know that the CBT is what led me to
2:20:28notice this in my own work that it felt
2:20:31like administrators were kind of selling
2:20:33cognitive distortions but students
2:20:35weren't buying yet and then when I
2:20:36started noticing that they seemed to
2:20:38come in actually already believing in a
2:20:39lot of this stuff that would be very
2:20:40dangerous and that led to calling the
2:20:42American mind and all that stuff
2:20:44but the thing that was rough about
2:20:47writing enhancing the American mind I'd
2:20:48have mentioned this already a couple of
2:20:50times I got really depressed this past
2:20:51year
2:20:52um because I was studying you know
2:20:54there's a friend in there that I talk
2:20:56about who killed himself um after being
2:20:58canceled I talked to him a week before
2:20:59he killed himself and I hadn't actually
2:21:01um
2:21:02I hadn't actually checked in with him
2:21:04because he seemed so confident I thought
2:21:06it would be totally fine because he he
2:21:08had an insensitive tweet in June of 2020
2:21:11and uh you know got got forced out uh in
2:21:14a way that didn't actually sound as bad
2:21:15as a lot of the other professors he
2:21:17actually at least got a severance
2:21:18package but they knew he'd Sue and win
2:21:20um because he had before
2:21:22and so I waited to check in on him
2:21:24because we were so overwhelmed with the
2:21:25requester helps and he was saying people
2:21:28were coming to his house still and then
2:21:29he shot himself the next week and I I
2:21:31definitely and because everyone knows
2:21:33I'm so public about you know my
2:21:35struggles with this stuff
2:21:36everybody
2:21:38um who fights this stuff comes to me
2:21:40when they're having a hard time and this
2:21:42is a very hard psychologically taxing
2:21:45business to be in and even admitting
2:21:46this right now like
2:21:48I think about like all the all the
2:21:50vultures out there if they'll have fun
2:21:51with it just like the same way when my
2:21:53friend Mike Adams killed himself there
2:21:54were people like celebrating on Twitter
2:21:56um that that a man was dead uh because
2:21:59they didn't like his tweets and but
2:22:03somehow that made them compassionate for
2:22:05some abstract other person so I was
2:22:07getting a little depressed and anxious
2:22:09and the thing that really helped me more
2:22:11than anything else
2:22:13um was confessing to my staff
2:22:17that I you know I I books take a lot of
2:22:20energy so I knew they didn't want to
2:22:22hear that Not only was this taking a lot
2:22:24of the boss's time this was making him
2:22:26depressed and anxious but when I finally
2:22:27told my the leadership of my staff
2:22:30um you know people that even though I
2:22:32try to maintain a lot of distance from I
2:22:34love very very much
2:22:35um it made such a difference you know
2:22:38because I could be open about that and
2:22:40the other thing was if you're at this
2:22:42conference dialogue oh yes it's like an
2:22:44invite-only thing it's Oren Hoffman
2:22:47um runs it
2:22:49um it intentionally tries to get people
2:22:50over the political Spectrum to come
2:22:52together uh and have off the record
2:22:54conversations about big issues
2:22:56and it was nice to be in a room where
2:23:00liberal conservative none of the above
2:23:02were all like oh thank God someone's
2:23:04taking on Council culture and where it
2:23:06felt like
2:23:07it felt like maybe this won't be the the
2:23:10disaster for me and my family that I was
2:23:13that I was starting to be afraid of it
2:23:14would be that taking the stuff on might
2:23:16actually have a happy ending well one
2:23:18thing I just stands out from that
2:23:23is the the pain of cancellation
2:23:27can be really intense and that doesn't
2:23:31necessarily mean losing your job but
2:23:32just even you can call it bullying you
2:23:35can call whatever name but just some
2:23:37number of people on the internet
2:23:39and that number can be small kind of
2:23:42saying
2:23:44bad things to you yeah that can be a
2:23:47pretty powerful force to the human
2:23:49psyche which is was very surprising and
2:23:51then the flip side also of that
2:23:54uh it really makes me sad how cruel
2:23:58people can be yeah it's such a thinking
2:24:01that your your cause is social justice
2:24:04in many cases can lead people to think I
2:24:06can be as cruel as I want in pursuit of
2:24:08this when it a lot of times it's you
2:24:11know just a way to sort of
2:24:14vent some aggression on on a person that
2:24:16you think of only as an abstraction so I
2:24:19think it's important for people to
2:24:21realize that they're whatever like
2:24:24whatever
2:24:27negative energy whatever negativity you
2:24:30want to put out there
2:24:31like there's real people that can get
2:24:33hurt like you can really get people
2:24:37um
2:24:38to one be the worst version of
2:24:40themselves or two possibly take their
2:24:41own life and it's not
2:24:44as real yeah well that's one of the
2:24:46things that we do in the book
2:24:48um to really kind of address people who
2:24:50still try to claim this you know isn't
2:24:53real is we just quote we quote the pope
2:24:56we call Obama we call James Carville we
2:24:59quote Taylor Swift on cancel culture
2:25:01like
2:25:02um and Taylor Swift's quote is is
2:25:03essentially about like how behind all of
2:25:05this there's when it gets particularly
2:25:07nasty there's this very clear you know
2:25:09kill yourself kind of undercurrent to it
2:25:13um and it's it's cruel and the problem
2:25:17is that in an environment so wide open
2:25:20there's always going to be someone who
2:25:22wants to be so transgressive and say the
2:25:25most hurtful you know terrible thing but
2:25:28then you have to remember the
2:25:29misrepresentation getting back to the
2:25:31old idioms sticks and stones will break
2:25:33my bones but names will never never hurt
2:25:35me has been
2:25:39re-imagined in campus debates in the
2:25:42most asinine way people will literally
2:25:44say stuff like but now we know words can
2:25:46hurt and it's like now we know words can
2:25:48hurt guys you didn't have to come up
2:25:51with a special little thing that you
2:25:54teach children to make her words hurt
2:25:56less if they never hurt in the first
2:25:57place it wouldn't even make sense the
2:25:59saying it's a saying that you repeat to
2:26:01yourself to give yourself strength when
2:26:04the bullies have noticed you're a little
2:26:06weird
2:26:07might be a little personal
2:26:09um the uh and it helps it really does
2:26:12help to be like listen Okay are
2:26:15going to say things
2:26:17um and I can't let them have that kind
2:26:19of power over me yeah
2:26:21yeah it still is a learning experience
2:26:23because it does it does it does hurt but
2:26:26for the good people out there who
2:26:28actually you know just sometimes think
2:26:29think that they're venting you know they
2:26:31think about it remember that there are
2:26:32people on either side of it
2:26:34yeah for me it hurts my kind of faith in
2:26:37humanity
2:26:38um I know it shouldn't but it does
2:26:39sometimes when I just see people being
2:26:41cruel to each other it kind of
2:26:44it's uh it floats
2:26:47a cloud over my perspective of the world
2:26:49that don't I wish didn't have to be
2:26:52there yeah that was always my sort of
2:26:54flipping but uh answer to that if if
2:26:57mankind is basically good or basically
2:26:59evil being like the biggest debate in in
2:27:02in in in philosophy and being like well
2:27:04the problem with uh with the first is
2:27:06there's nothing basic about Humanity
2:27:09yeah what gives you hope about this
2:27:11whole thing about about this dark state
2:27:15that we're in as you describe how can we
2:27:18get out what gives you hope that we will
2:27:19get out
2:27:21I think that people are sick of it
2:27:24um I think people are sick of
2:27:26not being able to be authentic
2:27:29um and that's really you know what
2:27:30censorship is it's basically telling you
2:27:32don't be yourself don't actually be to
2:27:34say what you think
2:27:36um don't show your personality don't
2:27:37dissent don't be weird don't be wrong
2:27:40um and that's not sustainable I think
2:27:43that
2:27:44people have kind of had enough of it uh
2:27:46but one thing I definitely want to say
2:27:48to your audience is
2:27:50oh
2:27:52it can't just be up to us our viewers to
2:27:56try to fix this
2:27:59um we and I think that and this may
2:28:01sound like it's an unrelated problem I
2:28:04think if there were
2:28:06highly respected let's say extremely
2:28:09difficult ways to prove that you're
2:28:11extremely smart and hardworking that
2:28:13cost little or nothing
2:28:15that actually can give
2:28:17the harvards and the yales of the world
2:28:19to run for their money I think that
2:28:21might be the most positive thing we
2:28:22could do to to deal with a lot of these
2:28:24problems and why
2:28:26I think the fact that we have become a
2:28:29weird America with a great anti-elitist
2:28:32tradition has become weirdly elitist in
2:28:35this in in the respect that we not only
2:28:37again are our leadership coming from
2:28:39these few fancy schools we actually have
2:28:43like great admiration for them we kind
2:28:44of look up to them but I think we'd have
2:28:47a lot healthier of a society If people
2:28:48could prove you know their excellence in
2:28:51ways that are coming from completely
2:28:53different streams and and that that are
2:28:55highly respected I sometimes talk about
2:28:56there should be a test that anyone who
2:28:59passes it gets like a you know a ba in
2:29:02the humanities that it is like a super
2:29:04ba like some something like someone not
2:29:07a GED that's not what I'm talking about
2:29:09I'm talking about something that like
2:29:11you know one out of only a couple like a
2:29:13hundred people can pass some other way
2:29:15of actually
2:29:17um uh of not going through these massive
2:29:19bloated expensive institutions that
2:29:20people can raise their hands and say I'm
2:29:22smart and hardworking I think that could
2:29:24be an incredibly healthy uh way I think
2:29:26we need additional streams for Creative
2:29:28people to be solving problems whether
2:29:30that's on X or someplace else
2:29:32um I think that there's lots of things
2:29:33that technology could do to really help
2:29:35with this I think some of the stuff that
2:29:37Sal Khan is working on uh at Khan
2:29:39Academy could really help
2:29:40um so I think there's a lot of ways but
2:29:42they exist largely around coming up with
2:29:44new ways of doing things not just
2:29:46expecting the old things that have say
2:29:4940 billion dollars in the bank that
2:29:52they're going to reform themselves and
2:29:54and here and here's my you know I've
2:29:55been picking on Harvard a lot but I'm
2:29:56going to pick on a little bit more
2:29:59um the and one and uh I talk a lot about
2:30:01class again and you know there's a great
2:30:04book called Poison Ivy um by Evan mandry
2:30:06which I recommend to everybody it's
2:30:08outrageous it sounds like me on a rant
2:30:10at Stanford
2:30:11um which was uh and I and I think the
2:30:13stat is you know Elite higher education
2:30:16has more kids from the top one percent
2:30:17than they have from the bottom 50 or 60
2:30:20depending on the school
2:30:23um and when you look at how much they
2:30:25actually like replicate class privilege
2:30:27it's it's really distressing so
2:30:28everybody should read poison ivy
2:30:30and above all else
2:30:32uh if you're weird continue being weird
2:30:37and you're one of the most interesting
2:30:39one of the weirdest in the most
2:30:41beautiful way people have ever met Greg
2:30:43uh thank you for the really important
2:30:45work you do this was
2:30:47this is let me watch kid Cosby
2:30:51I appreciate the class the hilarity that
2:30:54you brought here today man
2:30:56um this is an amazing conversation thank
2:30:57you for the work you do thank you thank
2:31:00you and for me who deeply cares about
2:31:02education higher education thank you for
2:31:05uh holding the mits and the harvards
2:31:08accountable uh for um doing right by the
2:31:11people that walk their Halls so thank
2:31:14you so much for talking today
2:31:15thanks for listening to this
2:31:17conversation with Greg lucianov to
2:31:19support this podcast please check out
2:31:21our sponsors in the description and now
2:31:23let me leave you with some words from
2:31:25Noam Chomsky
2:31:26if you believe in freedom of speech you
2:31:29believe in freedom of speech for views
2:31:30you don't like
2:31:32Gables was in favor of freedom of speech
2:31:34reviews he liked so was Stalin if you're
2:31:38in favor of freedom of speech that means
2:31:40you're in favor of freedom of speech
2:31:41precisely for views you despise
2:31:45thank you for listening and hope to see
2:31:47you next time

About this transcript

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