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Google Maps Just Shrunk Everyone’s Ranking Radius (Biggest Proximity Shift in 20 Years) — Transcript

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0:00Matt Hammerton, welcome back to the
0:01podcast.
0:03>> How's it going?
0:05>> Dude, you've been Okay, so this is your
0:07second time on the show. You've been
0:08doing SEO for a while. You manage You
0:11currently manage more than 100 Google
0:13Business Profiles. You have stakes in
0:15multiple home service companies. You do
0:17personal injury law SEO. And now you are
0:21seeing something very unusual
0:24with local SEO. What are you seeing,
0:26Matt?
0:28>> It's It's It's very drastic. Some kind
0:30of You know, there's a lot of Google
0:31updates going on right now, of course.
0:34And we're seeing that here but
0:36Yeah, so it You know, I think some
0:38people This might have got pushed under
0:40the rug a little bit cuz they didn't
0:41know really where something was coming
0:42from, right? You know, uh
0:44but it it they seem to be pinching
0:46proximity extremely
0:49uh on Google Maps right now. So, extreme
0:52proximity pinch
0:54um with extreme
0:55>> Basically, like normally your radius
0:58you get you you could get a good 3 to 5
1:00mi if you have a high amount of reviews
1:02and a high amount of authority and stuff
1:03like that, even up to 7 mi depending on
1:05the competition levels, right? But
1:08right now those those listings I'm
1:11seeing that have those I have a access
1:13to a lot of those and they're shrinking.
1:17And and there's lots of evidence of how
1:19they're shrinking and it's not just
1:20them, it's everyone in the list. So,
1:22everyone has less of a share of that
1:24same radius, right? So,
1:26you know instantly like, "Okay, everyone
1:28just lost
1:29you know, space, right? So, they they
1:32lost they lost a mile or whatever it
1:34whatever it may be." Um and then you can
1:36look at the singular dots as well and
1:39you can see that it's only showing ones
1:41that are really super close to that to
1:43that dot. It It's It's being more strict
1:46about how close they have to be
1:48to to rank for that dot, which which
1:50will show here on the screen here in a
1:52minute, too.
1:53Um but it it's it's it's very obvious.
1:57Um
1:58It basically how I came upon it is I
2:00came to my rank report. I I do grid rank
2:03reports twice a week. So, a lot of SEOs
2:05do it once a month or whatever,
2:07but for my experience, weekly is needed
2:10at least if you really want to see
2:11trends and see what's going on. Um, so I
2:15went to do my weekly reports and
2:17two or three listings that I saw were
2:19like extremely down and then 10 of them
2:21were extremely up and I'm like, "Okay,
2:23obviously
2:25something's happening here, right?" I I
2:27knew there were algorithm things going
2:29on and stuff like that. So, I didn't
2:30know if specifically at first. So, just
2:33after poking around a lot
2:35and comparing data, you know, um,
2:38quickly it became very obvious, you
2:40know, what exactly had happened at least
2:42in this specific
2:44uh, situation and
2:46uh, I looked over I'd say about 40 40 to
2:4950 different scans, so 40 to 50
2:50different locations and it's the same in
2:54about 85% of them. Some of them were
2:55just more mild because of competition
2:57levels. So, if you're in a very
3:00non-competitive area
3:02you may see less of it because
3:05there's not other businesses there
3:07anyway, so they're going to give you
3:08that share still, right? Or maybe even
3:11more of the share because there's nobody
3:12there. Right? Maybe somebody 5 mi away
3:15that had higher reviews
3:17was coming into your territory a little
3:18bit, but now they're gone. So, you
3:21either saw a gain from it or a loss from
3:23it or maybe stayed the same depending on
3:24competition levels.
3:26Um, so, but it's very extreme. That's
3:28the most extreme proximity change I've
3:30ever seen ever. So, yeah.
3:34>> Okay, what are you showing us on the
3:35screen?
3:36>> Okay, so on the on the screen here is
3:39the report of the prior week before the
3:42update. So, when you go down, you can
3:46see the average rankings right here,
3:49okay?
3:50And if you look, you know, number one's
3:521.9, then 4.7, then 5.1. That's their
3:56average rank across across this entire
3:58grid up here, right? So, that's that's
4:01their average rank across the grid. So,
4:02but then when you when you fast forward
4:04to the update, oh wow, now now it's 6.5
4:08and 10.6 and 13.9 and 14.8. So, it's you
4:12know it's just not you. You know you
4:13didn't just do something wrong or or
4:16your rankings just went down or up. You
4:18can see that everybody was, you know,
4:22feeling the same effect from the exact
4:24same thing.
4:25Um so, I I did that in a in a couple
4:29of well, a bunch of different scenarios,
4:30but a couple that I thought stood out.
4:33Um I made graphics for because obviously
4:35clients, you got to explain to clients
4:36what's going on when something like this
4:38happens
4:39um as well. So, let me zoom this one in
4:42for you.
4:44There we go. So,
4:46this is
4:47this is a this is the best extreme one I
4:50could show you because this is a uh
4:53large metropolitan area in the center of
4:56the city
4:57for personal injury lawyers.
4:59>> What city is it?
5:00>> This is Phoenix.
5:01>> Okay.
5:02>> So, Phoenix Phoenix Arizona, what maybe
5:04fifth biggest city in in America. Um
5:07one of the most competitive injury
5:08lawyer markets in the nation. So, in
5:11this area, in this vicinity, there
5:12happens to be, you know, 20, 30, 40
5:15lawyers all
5:16in the same little 4-mi, 5-mi pocket,
5:20right? And all of them have a lot of
5:23reviews. All of them have everything
5:25right. Like no everybody's things filled
5:27out, you know, everybody's GBP is maxed.
5:29You know what I mean? So, it's like
5:32you know, competition like that, right?
5:35Yeah, yeah. You know, you're not you're
5:36not winning just cuz you you you got
5:38your GBP filled out correctly. That's
5:40not, [laughter] you know, so um but
5:43what's happening here is you could see
5:44the extreme swing. Now, some of these
5:47some some of these um
5:49businesses changed, too. Like they're
5:51not the same businesses anymore, either,
5:53some of them. But as you can see, this
5:54is this is our company, the the company
5:56that I'm marketing right here doing SEO
5:59for. And we're number one still
6:03on average across the board, but our
6:05average went from 2.5
6:08ranking to 16.9
6:10ranking.
6:12Still being number one, so it's not like
6:13we did anything wrong or
6:16lost any ground in comparison to others.
6:18>> Yeah, they all they all went down.
6:20>> Yeah. They all lost everything. So
6:23basically everybody's radius is just
6:24went
6:25You know what I mean? And and you just
6:27So your your your rank for a certain map
6:31area shrinks.
6:32>> So you're saying you're you're basically
6:34saying that the local algorithms are
6:37over indexing for proximity to the
6:40searcher compared to what it was before,
6:43and this is regardless of reviews,
6:45regardless of
6:46optimizations.
6:48>> Yeah. Yeah, there's
6:50>> It's a like a major local algorithm
6:52change is what you're seeing.
6:54>> Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like if if
6:56proximity
6:57uh level of importance was here, it just
6:59went like it just it just like
7:02skyrocketed.
7:03>> This method of marketing is so
7:04effective, I had to make sure it wasn't
7:06against Google's rules before I kept
7:08using it. It's a form of SEO I call
7:10compact keywords. Whereas most SEO
7:13focuses on putting up articles to answer
7:14questions how, what, when, compact
7:17keywords focuses on putting up dozens of
7:19pages that sell to searchers who are
7:21actually looking to buy. These pages
7:23rank on Google and convert so much
7:25better than normal that when I
7:26discovered this years ago, I couldn't
7:28believe this was allowed. It's less
7:30work, too. The average compact keyword
7:32landing page is only 415 words. Compact
7:35keywords is a 13-hour deep course on
7:38getting sales with SEO. A customer said,
7:40"We spent nearly 18,000 in the last year
7:43and a half on marketing and SEO through
7:45different agencies locally, and that did
7:47nothing. We decided to take the leap on
7:49the compact keywords course. We're now
7:51getting about six to eight calls per day
7:53on a good day, which is just unheard
7:55of." Another customer said, "Give it to
7:57a junior employee, have them follow it
7:59exactly as Edwards laid out. You don't
8:02have to do anything, and you're going to
8:03gain a six-figure SEO level employee
8:06just by having them go through this
8:08course. Compact Keywords is about
8:10setting up an SEO funnel that brings you
8:12sales for years and years and years. It
8:14works with AI, it's less work than
8:16traditional SEO, and it makes way more
8:19money. You can get it now at
8:21compactkeywords.com.
8:23Back to the podcast.
8:24>> You know, they're doing the you know,
8:25the pizza shop effect that we call it,
8:27you know, like where they treat every
8:29business like a pizza shop.
8:31It seems like they
8:33took that extreme measure like it like
8:36like like they're treating injury
8:37lawyers like restaurants. You know what
8:39I mean? All of a sudden and and maybe
8:41they'll pull this back. I would expect
8:42that they will.
8:43>> Yeah, cuz it's it's it's very different
8:45cuz if you're if if you want to Look, if
8:47you want food, you want to go to a place
8:48that's nearby most likely. Like you're
8:51especially pizza. You don't want to go
8:53halfway across the city to get a slice
8:55of pizza. You want to go next door. If
8:57it's a if it's a if it's a lawyer and
8:59you're going to drop some serious money
9:01and you're really counting on this, man,
9:03you'll go you'll go like to other
9:06states. You'll you'll go to other you'll
9:07do what whatever you got to do. And so
9:09the proximity doesn't matter for that.
9:12>> No, no. And and it's like this for
9:14everything, too. Like as you know, I
9:15work in home services as well and it's
9:17the same it's the same thing's happening
9:19there. Another trend I'm seeing is
9:21service area businesses are all all the
9:23service area business locations I have
9:25got really nailed. They all went
9:27So, they seem to be getting pinched in
9:30this completely,
9:33which makes sense, you know, when it
9:35comes to proximity. That that makes
9:36sense that service area business would
9:38get have some trouble there.
9:40Cuz what is their proximity?
9:43>> So, you're
9:44you've seen this across personal injury
9:45lawyers, plumbers, locksmiths, HVAC,
9:48other industries.
9:50>> Sliding doors, all kinds of
9:53everything, you know, I haven't tested
9:55outside of home services and outside of
9:57legal, but I mean, that's a pretty broad
9:59broad [clears throat] base right there.
10:01Um
10:01so I would I would assume it's happening
10:03in in most other industries as well.
10:06Um
10:06>> Now, here's the here's the question.
10:07Have you verified these changes through
10:10other other tools?
10:13>> Yes. Yes. It's the same thing same thing
10:15across all tools.
10:17>> All tools? Major
10:18>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
10:20>> So it's so it's not a tracking issue.
10:22>> No. No. And and it
10:25It's I did multiple reports too cuz I
10:27didn't believe it at first.
10:28You know, it it was it was hard not to
10:31believe basically because I saw it on so
10:32many different instances.
10:34You know, and in different trackers cuz
10:36I have multiple trackers running through
10:37through several different ones. Um
10:40And so
10:42But then just I did a report again on
10:45like 10 or 20 of them.
10:47You know, I just I I did the report all
10:49over again just to make sure. I'm like,
10:51"Is this really like is this even
10:53happening?" I waited a day later and did
10:55it again. I waited a day later and did
10:56it again. You know what I mean? And it
10:58was the same result. So as as of
11:00yesterday, the last time I ran scans, uh
11:04it was the same. You know, so if if
11:06they're backing off of haven't backed
11:08off it yet from what I've seen.
11:10>> When did you say you noticed it?
11:12>> I noticed it on uh Tuesday. So that
11:14would have been What's the date of that?
11:17Tuesday the 27th.
11:19>> Yeah, a couple of days ago. Okay.
11:20>> yeah, I run my scans on Tuesday, you
11:22know, sometime between 9:00 and noon is
11:24kind of like a good time when all the
11:26offices are open cuz you want to be able
11:27to compare it to when everyone's open
11:29not when
11:31just you're open cuz we're open 24 hours
11:33and then
11:34you run a scan later in the day and it
11:35throws everything off. Um so they're all
11:38done at the same time, same date.
11:40And so yeah, the and then the last scan
11:43before that was Thursday. So
11:46the prior Thursday on the 22nd,
11:48everything was
11:50still the way it used to be.
11:52Um so sometime over the weekend
11:54basically it seems like they decided to
11:56have some fun, I guess, and pull some
11:58lever pull somebody Either there's
11:59somebody just pulled a lever they
12:00shouldn't have maybe. I don't know. I
12:02don't [laughter] know.
12:03>> You um
12:05You have more tabs to show us?
12:06>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
12:07>> So you've been And also you said you
12:10You've been You've been doing local SEO
12:11for a while. Have you ever seen stuff
12:13like this?
12:14>> No, I I I've been doing it for 20 years.
12:17Um, and obviously you've only had these
12:18grid maps and stuff for the last what,
12:2010 plus or so, maybe.
12:22Um,
12:23but yeah, I've never seen anything this
12:25extreme. Not not in proximity. You know,
12:28I obviously we see the extremes in
12:29links, uh, link penalties and uh, pandas
12:32and penguins and whatever animals
12:35>> also the animal
12:36>> Whatever nice animal they pick to be
12:39mean.
12:40>> [laughter]
12:41>> Or whatever, you know, strict, whatever
12:43you want to say. Uh, depends on which
12:45side of that you're on. Um,
12:47but yeah, so those I've seen extreme
12:50>> update and it's and it sounds cute, but
12:52it's definitely not.
12:54>> [laughter]
12:54>> No.
12:55Yeah, definitely. Dep- Depending on how
12:56you're doing your SEO.
12:57>> update called the cute kitten update and
12:59have it just be ferocious.
13:01>> Yeah.
13:03>> [laughter]
13:03>> Make it to to total make it very ironic
13:05as possible.
13:07>> Um, but yeah, so that that's this is
13:09this is the one uh, that was really
13:11extreme. This is Phoenix. So to to I
13:14wanted to show another example that's
13:15slightly more mild so people are like,
13:16"Oh, well, that's an obviously extreme
13:18situation. How many how many people are
13:20in that exact situation?" You know, um,
13:22so this is this is a smaller city. This
13:24is uh, Mesa, Arizona, which is more of
13:26uh, you know, it's still like
13:28a few hundred thousand people, but uh,
13:30it's it's less extreme, but
13:33>> Can you zoom in?
13:33>> same cons- same concept here. Yep.
13:37>> Great. Okay. There you go. So, you can
13:39see the same thing here again. We still
13:41stayed at number one
13:43>> across the board on the radius, but we
13:45went from 1.9 to 6.6.
13:47The second guy went from 4.7 to 10.5,
13:505.1 to 13.3.
13:52Uh,
13:52>> No,
13:54are
13:55Aside from you, you're staying number
13:56one, are the other players shifting?
13:59>> They're shifting. Yeah, they're
14:00shifting. They're shifting a lot.
14:02They're changing out.
14:04Um,
14:04and they're they're So, basically right
14:07now you need less reviews to win.
14:10You need less authority, less reviews
14:12because the proximity meter, the
14:13strength of the proximity got pushed up
14:16so much. I don't honestly it just seems
14:18like a mistake, but
14:20um
14:21it it's like putting people up there
14:23that really probably shouldn't be in
14:25some of the packs, you know? In the
14:27higher competitive areas, obviously it's
14:29still going to be you know, some
14:31somewhat authoritative
14:32you know, locations, but um
14:35in some of the smaller cities and stuff
14:36though, you're seeing people with like
14:38one review in the three pack and stuff
14:40like that where
14:42there's options one more mile away with
14:44a guy with 200, you know? So it's like
14:47it's it's kind of an odd way to
14:50run an algorithm, I guess uh for for
14:53this kind of business
14:54um or for a home service business even.
14:56These these are uh
14:59both uh injury lawyer results here that
15:01I'm showing, but um home service stuff
15:04was all the same way. Um and like I
15:07said, some some are more drastic than
15:08others. When you get to the less
15:10competitive areas, it gets less drastic
15:12and less noticeable uh because there's
15:14just
15:15there was less competition in the first
15:16place, so you can't you just can't see
15:18what you what you would see, you know?
15:20Um and then there's there's another
15:23thing to it, too. So like
15:26these dots, obviously everybody knows
15:27you you you can click on one of these
15:29dots and then you can see
15:31uh
15:32the people ranking for that specific
15:35location, that specific latitude
15:37longitude. I'm not going to click this
15:39cuz it'll show all the business names,
15:40going to hide everybody's uh
15:42you know, identities here, but uh I I I
15:44have it over here, so you can see
15:48what happened there.
15:49So
15:50>> Zoom in a little bit.
15:52Yeah, there we go.
15:52>> All right, there there we go. So
15:55when you click that when I clicked on
15:56one of the dots, this is this is this it
15:58was the same style thing for every dot
16:01you click, this was the same result,
16:03right? So
16:04um you would see here's the prior
16:07this is the the prior uh run, the prior
16:10scan, and then this is the the newer
16:13scan, and you can see that no one over a
16:15mile is left anymore. They're all gone.
16:18But over here these guys I highlighted
16:19in red
16:20>> Wow.
16:21>> they were all there before.
16:23>> Uh-huh.
16:24>> Right? So, you could be 1.75 miles away,
16:261.8. This guy's 1.49. Now you got to be
16:29point 1.17
16:32You know what I mean? Like look how
16:34close all these guys are to this dot.
16:37It's
16:38only choosing people that are on the on
16:40the on the street almost. You know, it's
16:42kind of crazy.
16:43Um And so I've never Yeah, I've never
16:45seen any any swing this extreme.
16:48>> I'm going to go into a personal injury
16:49law firm in order a pizza.
16:51>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:53>> [laughter]
16:53>> Like let's let's do it right now. I got
16:55to see somebody now. I I got 5 minutes.
16:59>> Yeah, so
17:01again, I I hope that they pull this
17:03back. I mean, I I think it's better for
17:06all including users if they pull this
17:08back a little bit. I don't
17:10it
17:11Obviously, I like it for SEO at least
17:13for me, you know, for
17:14guys, you know, for this could also be a
17:17I think it's an attempt to get rid of
17:19monopolization of maps
17:22for listings with, you know, 13,000
17:26reviews or
17:275,000 reviews when they're given a
17:295-mile span and they're just number one
17:32for everything on all of them, right? Um
17:36and giving people a chance to rank a
17:38little bit more even with less reviews
17:40and in their in their
17:42at least their small radius where
17:44they're located at.
17:45Um but I think they [clears throat] just
17:47maybe pulled the lever a little too
17:48hard, it seems like.
17:50Um
17:51just just a little too strongly. So
17:54>> So you think this is uh
17:56temporary or a bug or or how long do you
17:58think something like this might stay
18:00for?
18:01>> Uh I don't know, but like like you said
18:03like like we were just saying, I've
18:04never seen it this extreme, so
18:07this is either the the the new Google
18:09Maps way uh you know, proximity-wise
18:12maybe maybe
18:14>> Or it was an accident.
18:16Yeah, or or um
18:19you know, maybe it's just testing, you
18:20know, and seeing how how far they should
18:22crank it, you know, obviously they might
18:24not pull it back all the way. Maybe
18:25they'll just pull it back a little bit.
18:27Um
18:28but I've I've never seen maps change
18:30this much. Um I was I was never so
18:33excited and so angry at the same time.
18:35It was
18:36>> Why were you excited?
18:38>> Well,
18:39um
18:40one is an opportunity. So, if you're a
18:42person like me that creates a large
18:44amount of like we create at least three
18:46to five new locations every month.
18:48Um for our businesses. So, that means
18:51now when we create a new location, once
18:53we get a couple reviews on it,
18:55we're already getting calls.
18:57Right? Cuz cuz now we're not competing
18:59with the guy 3 miles away that has 350
19:01reviews anymore. We're only competing
19:02with everybody in the neighborhood. So,
19:04now if we're picking a location to
19:06to put a location in and we can see that
19:09in a 2-mile radius there's no other
19:10competition, we already know we're going
19:11to
19:13take at least a mile of that right out
19:14the gate the second we have some reviews
19:16on there, right?
19:17Um or for people starting a business,
19:19you know what I mean? They'll have a
19:20better chance um if they started in the
19:22right place, you know, if if you started
19:23in the wrong neighborhood,
19:25you're you're you're you're screwed
19:27either way, right? But, um
19:29yeah, so so it's exciting that in that
19:31way.
19:32Um and that cuz that's that's my main
19:34strategy. So, for me,
19:36but I also have listings that have
19:39thousands of reviews. And they were
19:41dominating a 5-mile area, right? And now
19:44they're now they're not. So,
19:46um it's mixed feelings. When I went to
19:48my reports, it was like
19:50uh four of my best listings all lost
19:53half their more than half their, you
19:55know, power, but my other,
19:58you know, 40 or 50 that I'm looking at
20:00at the time all gained a extreme amount
20:02of power, right? Because they were
20:05they were smaller reviewed listings, you
20:07know, maybe
20:0870 reviews or 110 or
20:1150 or whatever it may be, right? So,
20:13they they expanded because the guys that
20:16had,
20:17you know, 500 three or four miles away,
20:19they disappeared. And now
20:21they took over those
20:23those map packs, you know. So,
20:26it it's it just depends on what what
20:29angle you're coming from, you know, what
20:31which business you are. If you if you're
20:33one with a ton of reviews right now and
20:35you were dominating, you're probably a
20:36little bit upset.
20:38I would assume.
20:38>> And you're seeing this in the local
20:40pack, too?
20:41>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because this is
20:43basically what you're seeing here. This
20:44is This This is the local pack for
20:47you know, the results. Um
20:49>> Yep.
20:49>> These These are on average right here.
20:52These are just across the entire map.
20:54But, this is for like a specific dot.
20:55So, these guys These three up here would
20:57all be in the pack, you know. Um Now,
21:01obviously, this guy's gone, right? He
21:03was three and now he's not even in the
21:05top 14.
21:07>> Yeah, so and basically
21:09>> [clears throat]
21:09>> businesses with terrible SEO can
21:11suddenly outrank
21:13these like amazing competitors just
21:15because of proximity. Have Have um
21:18Have any of your clients
21:20lost leads or phone calls?
21:22Um
21:23>> Um
21:24>> that you see or or like yeah, or these
21:26changes only visible in the ranking
21:28reports so far?
21:29>> Yeah, it depends. I only have a few
21:32clients that only have one listing.
21:35And they all lost, for sure.
21:38Um they all lost some calls. Their calls
21:39went down. Um
21:41>> This is real.
21:42>> Now, yeah. Yeah, they went down. Now,
21:44not
21:45not insanely extreme, but quite a bit.
21:48Quite a bit.
21:49>> You know, I wonder so I was doing some
21:50research before this uh
21:53on if other people are experiencing
21:55this, and I didn't find that many
21:56reports. I found a few scattered here
21:58and there. I wonder if they're tests in
22:00certain cities.
22:02>> Yeah. Yeah, and I'm curious if people
22:04are just not connecting the dot yet.
22:06>> That's possible, too, because you said
22:07you you look at their scans a lot more.
22:09>> Yeah, I I think cuz that would say the
22:12majority of SEOs, especially with
22:14client-based, maybe maybe when you're
22:15working on your own business, you scan
22:17it more often. It's not cheap to do
22:18scans, you know. So, like
22:20I I I spend like almost $2,000 a month
22:23just in the scans, you know. So,
22:25I think a lot of SEOs don't do that, but
22:27the my clients are very uh you know, I
22:30don't want to say the word demanding,
22:31but they're they're lawyers. They're
22:33paying They're you know, they're paying
22:34a lot of money and they're um expecting
22:36results and they you know, I have I I I
22:38send weekly reports to them, not
22:40monthly. I you know what that means, so
22:42I talk to them every single week. I have
22:43meetings with them every single week,
22:44sometimes twice a week.
22:46Um so,
22:48they want you to stay on it on it, you
22:50know? So, I
22:51I see I I think I might have I don't
22:53know if I discovered something that no
22:54one else has discovered necessarily, but
22:56I think a lot of people maybe wouldn't
22:58catch it um
23:00unless they're scanning weekly. You you
23:02would have to be kind of, you know, cuz
23:04if you didn't scan last week and then
23:06scan this week again, you there's no way
23:07you would really know.
23:09Um if a monthly report, it might cuz it
23:12depends on if it shifts, if it shifts
23:14back. Some people will never notice it
23:15happened.
23:16>> [laughter]
23:17>> You know?
23:18Um they may wonder why the dip in calls
23:20happened, but um
23:22so, yeah, it's it's I've never seen
23:23anything this extreme though. And it's
23:25it's been about a week now, so I'm
23:26curious how long this is going to stick
23:29around.
23:30>> And have you found any exceptions to
23:33this pattern? Businesses that still rank
23:35across large geographic areas despite
23:38this uh apparent proximity increase?
23:41>> No.
23:43No.
23:44Not one yet. I I thought I would see
23:45one. The only situations where you can't
23:48tell
23:49is like when the competition is kind of
23:51scattered. You know what I mean? So, if
23:54there's only four or five
23:58people in your niche in the same four or
24:00five mile radius, then it the it would
24:02be harder to see it, right? It it would
24:05either be more mild or maybe almost
24:06non-existent because everybody just kind
24:08of gained and lost and you didn't even
24:10really
24:11you know?
24:12You would still notice your map pattern
24:14change, like where you're green, but you
24:16might still have the same amount of
24:17green, right? Because it happened to
24:19everyone and there's less of you. But
24:21when there's 10 of you in the same five
24:23mile radius,
24:25the impact is is is what you see here
24:27where
24:29these guys are all now out of the top 14
24:31completely. They're just
24:34gone. You know what I mean? In this area
24:36not maybe not obviously not where they
24:38are at. When you get when they're 0.17
24:41mi away from the dot, then they're going
24:42to be
24:43in the in the pack or whatever, but
24:46in these situations where they're a mile
24:47away now they're now they're gone.
24:50Um so that's it's pretty extreme.
24:53>> By the way, can you see um can you see
24:55my face when we're when you're doing the
24:56screen share? Some people it takes up
24:58their entire screen.
24:59>> No, I I guess I could I could see your
25:01face in the Are you talking about in the
25:02corner, right?
25:03>> Yeah, yeah, just making sure cuz like it
25:04could be hard to vibe if you can't see
25:06that.
25:07>> Yeah, no, I can see you. I can see you.
25:09>> Uh
25:09>> You're good to go.
25:10>> Great. Um
25:12So basically the optimal strategy is
25:16opening additional locations?
25:18>> Yeah, that that would be my that would
25:20be my advice. Um my well, my advice
25:22initially is just to you know, let's see
25:24what
25:25>> Yeah, stick it out.
25:26>> what I mean. I would
25:26>> it's never it's never a good idea with
25:29with any with any surface to
25:31>> Yeah.
25:31>> to respond immediately
25:34to dramatic swings.
25:36>> If if you're capable of get if you are
25:38planning on doing more locations
25:40anyways, I would do them now, right?
25:42Because just
25:43just one, they're going to rank quicker
25:46and you and you might get some
25:48some calls faster while this is in
25:49place, right? And two, you should do it
25:51anyways.
25:52You you you should be trying to get more
25:54locations. Now, if it's going to be an
25:56expense that you can't afford later down
25:59the road if this goes back and and it
26:00and it's not necessary, then that could
26:02be a problem. But if it's if you can if
26:04you can get another office location and
26:07and you could do the things you need to
26:08do to do that, then I I would I would
26:09suggest doing that even when these type
26:11of things aren't happening, you know? Um
26:13they were already shrinking
26:15proximity a little bit, you know, your
26:17radius a little bit. Um so it's already
26:20heading this direction.
26:22So I would have already recommended
26:24that, but yeah, if this sticks, you're
26:25going to have to.
26:27I mean, you're really going to have to.
26:30You might have to have two locations in
26:32the same city.
26:34Maybe three if it's if it's a big
26:36enough,
26:38you know, area if you if you want to win
26:40it all, you know, you won't. They're
26:41only going to give you two two miles,
26:44three mile max. That's that's a pretty
26:46strict that's [laughter]
26:48it's a pretty small area and then if
26:49you're in a if you're not in a resid- if
26:52if you're not in a residential area, you
26:54know, a lot of these
26:55law firms some of these law firms are
26:56downtown.
26:58So, I mean, yeah, you have apartments
27:00and stuff like that, but it's not highly
27:01residential. You got you got stadiums
27:03and
27:04whatever else down there and businesses
27:06mostly and
27:07so, if your radius is only a mile or
27:09two, you a lot of that might not be a
27:10lot of population, you know, in that in
27:12that um
27:14specific area.
27:16So,
27:18yeah, it it's it's very interesting. I
27:20I'm kind of shocked, actually.
27:22>> And you think this is across all of
27:24Google Maps?
27:26>> Far as I know. As far as I know, I'm I'm
27:28I'm hoping I'm hoping coming on here,
27:30you know, maybe we'll find out, you
27:31know, if other people have seen it cuz
27:34uh
27:34I I tried to look online for people
27:36talking about it and very little chatter
27:39very few chatter. I I saw chatter of of
27:41maps shifts. So, people were talking
27:44about
27:45seeing the shift in maps in in their in
27:47their rankings, but not this
27:49specifically.
27:50So, I'm assuming like we just stated
27:52earlier that maybe they just haven't
27:54connected that dot yet. A lot of them
27:56haven't seen Oh, okay.
27:58That's exactly
28:00what happened here because for a lot
28:02like I said, if the competition is
28:03smaller,
28:04it's not as obvious what did it.
28:07>> How long should somebody wait before
28:09reacting?
28:12>> Um I mean, obviously every situation is
28:15different.
28:16Um but in this situation,
28:18the react the only reaction you could
28:19have is to
28:22get other locations or just continually
28:24doing better on your current listing
28:26that at least give it the biggest radius
28:27it could possibly get even with the
28:29shrunken radius, right? You're still You
28:31still got to do the things you're
28:32supposed to do, get your reviews and
28:33stuff like that so you can rank better
28:35in this area. Another Another benefit of
28:37this is
28:39you rank for more keywords in your
28:41smaller radius as well.
28:44So your other all all your keywords go
28:46up in that radius, right? So making sure
28:49that your GBP has all its services in it
28:51right now is very important. That's
28:53another thing I would make sure.
28:54Obviously that's always important but
28:56right now even more because if your
28:58radius is shrunk, now you need to play
29:00the game of ranking for more keywords in
29:01that smaller radius now. So
29:04does your landing page have those
29:06keywords on it so it can rank for more
29:07of those keywords or your website
29:08itself? That's debatable. Some people
29:11say it should be on the landing page,
29:12some people say it just has to have a
29:13page in your site.
29:15I believe both kind of work. Um so
29:19but yeah, but but making sure you have
29:21them there though and in the description
29:23and everywhere else, you know, the
29:24descriptions of all your citations and
29:26everything like that as well. Um
29:29uh someone else is theorizing too that
29:32they're starting to base things more
29:33like AI systems are a little bit too
29:35based on um
29:37like third-party reviews and good press
29:39and stuff is is affecting Google Maps
29:42now more than it was before.
29:44Um but I don't see that as a factor in
29:46this current situation, you know.
29:49Um if if it was affecting things, it
29:52I I didn't really notice that, you know.
29:54So more implications. So maybe yeah,
29:56website SEO more important.
30:00Uh website SEO more important. Creating
30:02top-of-mind awareness to get branded
30:04searches a lot more important. Yeah. How
30:07do you get past that proximity? Well,
30:09people just think of your brand. It
30:11could also be that like if enough people
30:14are Maybe like branded searches could
30:16actually get around proximity as well.
30:19Branded searches are a lot harder to
30:21game than reviews. I I I I went to a
30:24restaurant last night and it was me and
30:26my friend and after uh
30:28after we ate, they're like, "Uh we'll
30:29give you free sake if you leave us a
30:31review." They didn't say which platform,
30:34they didn't say it had to be positive or
30:35negative. This still if somebody leaves
30:37a review on Google Maps, this still goes
30:39this is still against the rules. But
30:41they're like yeah, they're like we'll
30:43give you free sock if we review them and
30:44we're and we're like all right, let's
30:46go. We were going to do it anyway. We're
30:48going to do it anyway, let's go.
30:49So it's a lot it's a lot easier to game
30:51but it's a lot easier to game but like
30:52branded searches are are are way harder.
30:56>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, branded searches
30:58um
30:58highly important. Those are all those
31:00are always highly important, you know,
31:03and like you said like you can't game
31:04cuz if someone searches a brand no
31:05matter proximity is not going to matter
31:07quite as much cuz then it's matching the
31:09query, you know.
31:10>> But it don't but it also could be maybe
31:12maybe
31:13listings with more branded searches that
31:16could be something that
31:18that
31:19gets over indexed on. That could be a a
31:21factor.
31:22>> Yeah, and and I can I can tell you too
31:24um
31:25that
31:26especially the some of the examples I'm
31:29showing you here is is a law firm with a
31:30lot of branded searches.
31:32>> Oh, yeah.
31:32>> So yeah, yeah.
31:34>> The proximity still
31:35>> Yeah, the majority of their search the
31:37majority of their stuff in search
31:39console it's it's branded. It's it's
31:41they're they're a big player. So
31:44yeah, they
31:46they get a lot of searches so it didn't
31:47it didn't help them beat the proximity.
31:49>> All right, so let's let's ask let's ask
31:51this 3 months from now
31:53this hasn't been rolled back or changed
31:56and if you were managing
31:58your and and you're you're doing local
32:00SEO and you're you get a new client what
32:03are the first things that you would do?
32:06>> Well, the the very first thing I would
32:08do is
32:09>> Yeah, still the basics. You know, your
32:11your basic GBP SEO obviously having all
32:13the services filled out, making sure the
32:14landing page has all the even more
32:17keywords on it. My my my specific
32:19opinion my personal opinion I should say
32:21on that is the landing page needs to
32:24have the keywords you want your GBP to
32:26rank for. GBP SEO is different than
32:30organic SEO.
32:31Sometimes you have to choose what you're
32:33trying to win a little more prioritize
32:35at least. You You want to ignore the
32:37other but sometimes on on a specific
32:39page on a landing page for a GBP, you
32:41have to say, "Am I prioritizing this
32:44page
32:45ranking for personal injury lawyer,
32:48or do I want my GBP to rank for personal
32:51injury lawyer and car accident lawyer?"
32:54Right? So, that might make me decide,
32:57"Oh, I'm going to put car accident and
32:58personal injury in the title."
33:00Where another person person might say,
33:02"Well, I want to put car accident on
33:03another page cuz those should be
33:05separate pages and and that." And I
33:07think both people are correct, honestly.
33:10Um but uh
33:12in my opinion, this situation, you would
33:14you would want to get all the keywords
33:16you want to rank for on that page
33:17somewhere. They don't necessarily need
33:18to be in H tags so you get you get
33:20cannibalization going on, but just
33:22present, right? So,
33:24um cuz you this is an opportunity to
33:26rank for more keywords in that small
33:27radius that they give you cuz the
33:29competition's going to thin out um due
33:31to the proximity pulling the other
33:33competition back, pulling them away from
33:35you.
33:36Um
33:38so that's that. And then but then then
33:40it's just if it sticks three months,
33:41you're going to have to get more
33:42locations. I mean, but they I mean, if
33:44you're a home service business, this
33:45this is ain't going to this ain't going
33:46to work.
33:48This
33:50this current algorithm, if it stays like
33:52this, if this is what's going to be a
33:53proximity is going to be this strong,
33:56if you're a one location business,
33:58you're going to have trouble surviving.
33:59At least if a lot of your business comes
34:01from your GBP, depending on, you know,
34:03if you're running ads and doing other
34:05things and GBP's only 10% of your
34:07business, obviously, that's a different
34:09case.
34:10Um
34:10but if you're a new business with not
34:12much money to spend and 85% of your
34:14business is coming from your one GBP
34:16location,
34:18it's going to be a big problem for those
34:21type of businesses
34:22um
34:23more than anybody else. If if they're
34:25leaning on one or two really big GBPs
34:27that were dominating, those are the ones
34:29that are going to suffer the most from
34:31this and they're going to have to to get
34:33more locations. Um
34:35but that's been my advisement to every
34:37every client since probably the last 5
34:3910 years at least.
34:41You know, I'm always asking can we get
34:42more locations?
34:44You know,
34:45and I I find them for them and
34:46everything. I make you know, I I find
34:48them the neighborhoods where I like
34:50there's the least amount of competition
34:51for them or anything.
34:52>> How are you looking
34:53at competition in neighborhoods?
34:56>> Um it's a
34:57Initially it was a simple map search.
34:59You know, you can go to just go to
35:00Google Maps and you can
35:03shift it around and move it around and
35:05look at how many people in your niche
35:08are in that area and just kind of glance
35:10at their review count. Um but now they
35:11have AI
35:13attached to the map. So if you go to
35:15maps on your desktop at least, I haven't
35:16tried this on a phone cuz that would
35:19that would be kind of hard to look at
35:20anyways. Um but when I'm on a desktop
35:22and I go to maps, you can talk to the AI
35:24and it it it finds the stuff for you. I
35:27asked it um can you find me
35:29>> show us. There's no sensitive
35:30information there.
35:31>> Oh, yeah, very very true. Very true.
35:33Very true.
35:34Very true. That's perfect. Let's take a
35:36look.
35:43>> Okay, pulling up Google Maps here.
35:46>> Google Maps. Google Maps. So
35:49one one way the old
35:50>> to ask maps. I've done that episodes on
35:53ask ask maps. Ask maps really
35:55prioritizes what's in reviews.
35:57>> Yeah. Yeah, so if if you search like
35:59personal injury lawyer right here and
36:02say you
36:03I zoom in, right? You can
36:06make sure you search this area. Make
36:08sure you click the search this area
36:09button too cuz you got to refresh
36:11that or it won't have actually all the
36:13lawyers that are there.
36:15Um so when you like move it,
36:16this comes up.
36:18Make sure you click that again.
36:21Cuz sometimes See how they just all pop
36:22propagated right there? They all just
36:24popped up. So when every time you move
36:26around you got to look. But so you can
36:28see you can look here. You're like, oh
36:29okay, he's here. He's here. He's here.
36:31So I want to be like here.
36:33You know, I don't want I don't want to
36:35go over here. Like look at the They got
36:36this. Now you can look at their reviews
36:38first too. I base it off that. So if
36:40like the he only has four, we can we can
36:42beat him real quick.
36:43Five, oh gosh, yeah, he's going to lose.
36:46So like, you know,
36:47you could you could you could be not far
36:48from these guys, but if one of them, you
36:50know, he has 54, that's a little
36:51tougher, that might take a couple weeks
36:52to catch up to him or whatever. So,
36:55depending on how you how you do things.
36:57But, you know, you can you can see these
36:58pockets though. You can see, "Oh, if if
37:00I can get something if there if there's
37:01a business location I can get like right
37:02here, I'm already going to win all this
37:04like right out the gate."
37:06Um
37:07So, that's how I look for it there.
37:09>> in the keyword,
37:10you put in the search, and then you see
37:12places that don't have a ton of
37:13businesses.
37:15You find one that's relatively empty.
37:18>> Yeah. Yep.
37:19Let me zoom out, you can see more. So,
37:21if if you the
37:23to show you an example of like why
37:26that area
37:27was so dramatic.
37:29See all these ones on top of each other?
37:30That was what we were looking at.
37:32>> Yeah.
37:34>> You know what I mean? Like one, two,
37:35three right in a row.
37:37They're just all stacked everywhere,
37:39right? Cuz it's that this is downtown
37:40Phoenix.
37:41>> So, yeah.
37:43Yep. That's uh
37:46Yeah, that's that's that's how you uh
37:48look for those and find those. Um
37:51It it's important to
37:53not have strong competition nearby when
37:56you're starting out especially.
37:57Especially if you're not if you don't
37:59have a plan or the ability to uh gain a
38:01lot of reviews very quickly. You're
38:03you're going to you're going to have big
38:04problems if you if you uh if you do
38:06that. You're just
38:08just going to sit there and and and get
38:09no calls.
38:10>> [laughter]
38:11>> Pretty much.
38:12>> Nobody wants that.
38:13>> No. No. No.
38:15So, yeah, like hopeful hopefully they
38:17roll this back. I mean, for the ones
38:19that uh
38:21have highly authoritative
38:23uh Google Business Profiles with with
38:26large amounts of reviews on them
38:27because, you know, those people are
38:28struggling. But, I mean, for a lot of
38:29other people, this is probably the best
38:31thing that's ever happened. So, I you
38:32know.
38:33Um some people probably would want this
38:35to stick.
38:36I'm sure.
38:37>> Yeah.
38:38>> You know.
38:39>> Yeah.
38:40Uh well, you know who knows? Some some
38:42Google engineers sometimes watch the
38:43show, and so maybe they'll be like, "Oh,
38:45shoot, I put in an extra zero [laughter]
38:47and
38:48when I was updating the algorithms this
38:50weekend."
38:51>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean
38:53>> Wow, so glad I watched the
38:54>> [laughter]
38:54>> show.
38:56Yeah, they're just going to they're just
38:57going to they're going to click click
38:58command Z.
39:00Yeah, they'll just go back in and undo
39:02it.
39:03>> Yeah. I mean, especially looking at this
39:05one. Like, that's that's quite extreme.
39:08This is quite extreme.
39:10You know, averaging 2. a 2.5 ranking
39:13across the map to a 16.9 and you're
39:16still number one. It's not like you
39:18you you dropped
39:20in comparison. So,
39:23it it's it's not like this this person
39:25lost authority
39:26>> Yeah.
39:27>> or
39:27did anything incorrect. Right? This
39:30person is me, so I'm going to say they
39:31didn't do anything incorrect, right?
39:33>> Yeah. Yeah, of course you did.
39:34>> But but either way,
39:36but you can see that with everybody else
39:38though, you know? Second guy going from
39:403.5 to 18.8. That's that's really that's
39:43just that's very extreme. You know, and
39:45you can you can see how authoritative
39:46these
39:47sites are, too.
39:49You know, the amount of reviews.
39:50Everybody has a lot of a lot of reviews.
39:52Everybody has
39:54>> Look at their links. 12,000 like my guy
39:56has 12,000, you know? This this This is
40:00This is personal injury right here. This
40:01is This is that world. This is what you
40:03go against, you know? Other
40:05other sites with 40-plus DAs. And that's
40:08In home services and stuff, there's not
40:09too many sites with a DA above 40, you
40:11know? They they exist, but
40:13much much thinner
40:15um in in that world, for sure.
40:18So,
40:20>> Anything Anything else that we haven't
40:22mentioned before we go?
40:24>> Um I I think that's about it. Let me let
40:27me double-check here on the list and
40:28make sure there is nothing else.
40:33No, I think that's pretty much it. Uh
40:35plan of action, you know, just
40:37you might have to get more You might
40:39have to get more locations here soon,
40:40possibly. Um if if you want to dominate
40:42an area.
40:44Um if if you're looking to expand, that
40:46that might be the only way you can do
40:47it.
40:47>> Yeah, but wait some time before making
40:49>> Yes. Yes. I agree. Yep. Yep. So, I'm
40:53hoping I'm hoping this rolls back. Um
40:56I'll definitely uh message you or let
40:58you know if I see a change for sure. So,
41:00you can
41:01report that, you know, and and let let
41:03people know.
41:04>> It'll be interesting what people in the
41:05comments say. Matt, where should
41:07everybody find you?
41:08>> Uh just uh if you're a personal injury
41:11lawyer looking for SEO services, go to
41:13brainspikemarketing.com.
41:15Um other than that, uh like I said last
41:18time I was on Edward's show, I'm just
41:19I'm just a I'm a a to-himself SEO kind
41:22of um and I'm I like to
41:25you know, I just wanted to share some
41:25information. I sent it I sent it to
41:28I sent it to Edward here the other day
41:29and he he thought, "Oh, that's kind of
41:31interesting. Let's let's let's you know,
41:32let's throw this up there." And
41:34um so, hopefully this helps some people
41:36out. Maybe some people see this and
41:37realize, "Oh, that's what that's what's
41:39happening." And and they can not be
41:41scared that they did something wrong,
41:43you know?
41:44Um cuz I could see as a starting out
41:45SEO, especially, or something, you see
41:47this and you don't think about
41:49finding that correlation, you could be
41:51like, "Oh my gosh, I just ruined this
41:53guy's
41:54You know, especially if you just did a
41:55big change, you know? Um
41:57>> Yeah.
41:58>> Cuz that was my That was my initial
41:59thing, you know, one of our one of the
42:01listings that that changed, Google
42:04actually changed its name.
42:06Um and took and took some of the
42:09keywords out of the name that even
42:10though there was a DBA for it and stuff
42:12like that. Now, they'll we'll get it
42:13reinstated later, but um
42:16so, when I first saw it, I was like,
42:17"Oh, maybe it's cuz that name changed on
42:19that one listing at first." And then I
42:22and then I started going to location
42:23after location after location, and it
42:26was just the same thing over and over
42:27again. But if you only had that one
42:29location, that's all you know, you would
42:31think, "Oh, it's cuz that." And
42:34you wouldn't maybe look into the to the
42:36proximity effect of, you know, on
42:38things. So,
42:40yeah, pretty extreme, pretty wild.
42:42Um
42:43we'll see what happens.
42:45>> Matt, thank you for returning to the
42:46show.
42:48>> For sure. For sure.
42:49>> This is episode 1,214
42:52of the pod. 1,214
42:56days in a row doing this show.
42:59If you watch
42:59>> Crazy man.
43:00>> Yeah. Yeah.
43:00>> [laughter]
43:01>> Let's go. Let's go. And you're you're
43:03you're a listener, too. You You When you
43:06first messaged me, you're like, "Dude, I
43:07love this show. Like I've done all this
43:09crazy stuff." And
43:11I'm like, "Wow." Yeah. You're legit.
43:14>> Uh it's the best show ever. Um
43:16you you know. It is because, you know, a
43:18lot a lot of people come on and give
43:19information like this. It's like the
43:21It's like the right now information.
43:24Right? You do it every day, so you hit
43:26people with the Oh, what happened
43:27yesterday? Like I just I just saw this
43:29what I told you 3 days ago, 2 3 days
43:32ago.
43:32>> messaged me last night. We're doing the
43:35pod the next morning, and this is going
43:38to come out tomorrow.
43:39>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, um cuz, you know,
43:42I I I think a lot of, you know, a lot of
43:44other SEO channels out there do a great
43:46job, but a lot of them are regurgitating
43:49information, or kind of Sometimes
43:51they're even making the same video over
43:53and over again. It It's like they're
43:54kind of talking about the same thing
43:56every single
43:57time, which I understand their audience
43:59though. I understand what it's for, you
44:00know what I mean? It's It's to teach
44:02people how, you know, that that specific
44:04way of doing SEO.
44:06Um but for you I think I think your show
44:08benefits the the more advanced SEO, I
44:10would say, even more than any other show
44:13that's been before. You know what I
44:15mean? So,
44:16you you It's It's It's a great show for
44:18beginners and advanced, but I think it's
44:22the one It's leading the pack for the
44:25advanced SEO, you know? Um if you want
44:27to stay on what's going on and
44:29>> You know.
44:29>> I I repeat myself all the time. I And I
44:32I
44:32regurgitate. I'm like I'm like, "Let's
44:34Let's break [laughter] Let Let me read
44:35this Reddit thread and what people are
44:37saying on X." But But um
44:40But yeah, I share my own ideas. And I
44:42think something else that a lot of
44:43channels don't do is I'm not afraid to
44:46have people on who I disagree with. Like
44:48I'll have people on
44:49>> Yeah.
44:49>> to share their stuff where I I might
44:51completely disagree with the way that
44:54they do SEO and with what they
44:56recommend, but like
44:59I might have them on anyway. Unless I
45:01feel like yeah, unless yeah.
45:03>> Unless you're like yeah, that's not
45:04there's no that doesn't that's not
45:06right.
45:06>> is just like completely I think this
45:08person's completely full of full of it
45:10then no, but yeah, I don't want I don't
45:12want that. But like if it's somebody who
45:14who are like um
45:16I mean like I have people who come on
45:17the show and like you know, I I say you
45:19know, you don't really need to think
45:21about schema. Sometimes people come on
45:22the show schema schema schema schema
45:24schema. All right, thanks for coming on
45:26the pod and it's cool.
45:27>> Yeah. Yeah, well that's just like like
45:29the landing page instance that I was
45:30talking about earlier for GBPs, right?
45:32So some one SEO will tell you, you know,
45:36you got to have all the keywords you
45:37want to rank for
45:38on your GBP on that page, right? They
45:41have to exist on that page. And other
45:42SEOs will tell you, you know, you just
45:43have to have pages for it on your site.
45:46And honestly, I've won both ways.
45:48I've I've I've had Google Business
45:51Profiles win with both with both
45:53strategies. Um I will say when the
45:56keywords are highly competitive,
45:58I've noticed that having
46:00all the keywords you want to rank for on
46:01your GBP in your title and description
46:03and stuff like that, it gets more
46:04important cuz it gets
46:06more of a it gets to be more of a
46:07battle, right? So um that's that's where
46:10my opinion comes at at from that, but
46:13similar. But like what you said, yeah,
46:15you you may you repeat your you repeat
46:17yourself about things with with your
46:18position, but
46:20you're looking at threads that are a
46:22different position.
46:23So it's still introducing a new
46:26position, right? Or introducing a new
46:29way of thought, right?
46:30>> something to think about.
46:31Maybe ideas maybe new ideas that they
46:33can incorporate. I mean, I learn stuff
46:35too sometimes when I'm doing the pod.
46:38>> Oh gosh, you this this thing makes you
46:40smarter every day, man.
46:41>> Oh yeah, it's
46:42>> You know what I'm saying?
46:43>> Yeah, yeah, it's [laughter] true. Well,
46:44>> learning every day.
46:45>> Sometimes cuz I also like I think I have
46:47a lot of SEOs who come on the show and
46:49I'm really not impressed with them, but
46:51you would never tell.
46:52With the way that I that I talk to them.
46:54Like they share these methods that I
46:56think used to be popular.
46:58And um I and I and I listen and I'm
47:01like, "Oh, it's so cool how you're doing
47:02it." But like to me, I'm just like,
47:03"Well, there's a better way, but I'm not
47:05going to
47:06>> Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
47:08>> Yep. And it it's it's teach their own
47:10and every situation's different. You
47:11know what I mean? So, it's like a rank
47:13and rent guy's going to look at things
47:15different than a guy that works on a lot
47:18of brands, right? They they those are
47:20two totally different worlds. You know,
47:23the casino guys are going to think a lot
47:24differently than a guy that does a
47:26personal injury lawyer, right? You got
47:28to You got to be as white hat but as
47:30aggressive as possible with a lawyer,
47:32you know? Um
47:33>> I actually had a I had a casino guy on.
47:35He's like, "I wish I was more white
47:37hat." He's like, "I think I actually
47:38would have done way better if I didn't
47:40try to do all these turn and burn plays
47:42like everyone says that you should do."
47:45>> Yeah, I started out very black hat, I
47:47would say. Um not
47:48>> like, dude, I started out black hat,
47:49too. I feel like I feel like all the a
47:52lot of the black hats eventually they're
47:54just like, "I don't want this headache.
47:56It's so much easier to just be white
47:57hat."
47:58>> Well, when you first start, you get into
48:00something new, right? And you think you
48:02feel like you're you're manipulating
48:04Google and it's exciting. You're like,
48:06"Oh, I can do anything I want. I can You
48:08start thinking You start thinking about,
48:09'Oh, I'm going to be buying jet skis
48:10next week.'" You start saying like
48:12>> You start You start real thinking uh
48:13you're about to start making millions of
48:15dollars, right?
48:15>> you feel like this like hidden hacker
48:17you're who can manipulate the world and
48:19>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And back in 2009
48:23with 10 2010 11 prior, for about three
48:27or four years, you really were You could
48:29be that. You could be a black hat SEO in
48:32local SEO and any SEO and still
48:35dominate, you know? Going back to like
48:37the mover story we talked about in the
48:39last podcast, you know what I mean? So,
48:40it's like you you could be black hat in
48:43almost any in any industry back then.
48:46Um
48:46but Google's gotten way better, you
48:48know? Way way smarter. Um and eventually
48:51you learn If you get burned enough uh
48:53times like I've been burned enough times
48:56to just know that like I it it's it's a
48:58waste of time to to do things
49:01anything that could possibly get you
49:02burnt. And if and if you're going to do
49:04something that's that's a little grey,
49:06just make sure you just do it really
49:07really really well.
49:09Like
49:09>> Cuz I know people who I know people who
49:11like yeah, okay, fine. They have they
49:13did well with affiliate. They made like
49:15100 grand for maybe like two to three
49:17months in a row. Then they got hit and
49:19then they never made something like that
49:20again and they kept chasing that. They
49:22kept chasing that. Whereas if they
49:24actually just started a brand for years,
49:26they'd reach within like within like a
49:28year or two, they might get to a point
49:30naturally where they're just making that
49:31amount of money every month and it's
49:33white hat. They don't have to look over
49:34their shoulder. And they can compound
49:36it. So when they're not just doing 100 a
49:38month, now like a couple months later,
49:40they might be doing 150. And a couple
49:42months later, they might be doing 175.
49:43Couple months later, they might be doing
49:45225. And Yeah.
49:47Yeah, so it's they just like kind of
49:49chase that and like you see that you see
49:51that honestly in every industry. People
49:53are chasing shiny object syndrome.
49:55That's Yeah, you'd
49:57You
49:58Yeah, you you don't want to be
50:01So
50:01when when you're working on a business
50:03or working on anything else, I always
50:04look at things like
50:06could you possibly exit this business?
50:07Could you possibly sell it? Could you
50:09possibly You know what I mean? So if
50:10you're not
50:11if you're not the product or you're not
50:13the service, you're what Google's trying
50:15to get rid of. Right? It They don't want
50:18the middleman. They want to They are the
50:19middleman.
50:21Right? They're the middleman between the
50:22user and the product.
50:24>> that forever. They've been They've been
50:26They've been giving information in the
50:27SERPs for as uh as
50:30>> Yeah.
50:30>> Since Since when they could, they
50:31started That's when they started doing
50:33it. They're like, yep, let's try to not
50:35make it so people have to click into
50:37websites.
50:37>> No, they're trying to connect the user
50:39to the service or the product. They
50:41don't want anything in between besides
50:43ads. That's
50:45The only thing other thing they want
50:47people to see in the way of that is ads.
50:49And that also they also want that to
50:51lead to the person, the service or the
50:53product as well, right? So
50:56um
50:57if your
50:59whole business model was rank and rent
51:00and things like that. I'm not against
51:02that necessarily, but you're kind of
51:05swimming upstream because you're what
51:07they're trying to get rid of.
51:10Right? So, they're trying to figure out
51:12how to get rid of you.
51:14Right? Cuz they don't want they don't
51:15want you to show up. So,
51:18the the longer you do those things,
51:19affiliate marketing and and and things
51:21like that where you're not actually
51:23building a brand or a product or a
51:24service, then
51:26you're just kind of spending a bunch of
51:28time on on on something that you don't
51:29own.
51:31Or that, you know, like like like you
51:32you're building a giant awesome brand.
51:35Like
51:36like what?
51:37That's what you do. Either do that for
51:38you or for for other people, right?
51:40>> Yeah.
51:41>> And and that that's how you make a lot
51:43of money doing
51:44>> It is the most rewarding thing though to
51:45do it for yourself, I think.
51:47>> Yeah, of course. Of course. If if you
51:49have if you have a lane where you can do
51:50it for yourself, that's the best way. Um
51:53and I used to only do it for my own
51:55companies.
51:56Um I wasn't a SEO service at all until
51:59four or five years ago. Uh so, for 15
52:01years, I just did SEO for my own
52:03businesses and that's it.
52:04>> fun when you do it for when you do it
52:05for your own businesses.
52:07>> Yeah. Yeah. And then, I just kind of got
52:09I guess I just kind of got bored with
52:11home service cuz I just
52:13Once you figure you figure it out,
52:14right? And it's it's
52:17you kind of figure it out and you it's
52:18very repetitive. You already know what
52:20you're going to do. It's it's kind of
52:21easy. So, um my buddy uh
52:24my buddy had it was working at a
52:26personal injury law firm
52:28and he introduced me to them.
52:31And they were kind of kind of blown away
52:33knowledge-wise and stuff like that,
52:35right? And so, I I took that on and now
52:37it now that's all I want to do cuz it's
52:39so much more exciting. It's so much
52:40harder. It's like it's like playing
52:43playing a a game, you know, like a like
52:45a video game trying to
52:48trying to compete cuz everybody else is
52:50is competing just as hard and, you know,
52:53uh you can't you can't let back. You got
52:55to keep
52:56keep keep going hard on it um
52:59with content and links and stuff like
53:00that or you just fall behind.
53:02>> feel like SEO is a video game and you
53:04unlock new powers and new skills and new
53:06learnings and new
53:08and new employees and
53:10Yeah. Yeah. I do feel like cuz SEO SEO
53:13is for me it's like the most holistic
53:15marketing channel. That's why I love it
53:17so much.
53:17>> Yeah. Yeah.
53:18>> Yeah. It's like
53:20>> going to use a cheat code, if you're
53:21going to use a cheat code so to speak,
53:24let's call it black hat or whatever,
53:26you just got to make sure
53:28you think about how would someone figure
53:30out I'm doing this.
53:32>> Yeah. It's true.
53:33>> Could they Could someone Could Google
53:35figure out that I'm doing this?
53:36>> tell cuz I'll tell you Well, I'll tell
53:38you this. I'll tell you this, man, cuz
53:40it's crazy. So, you know, I had Kyle
53:42Roof on the show yesterday. That episode
53:45came out literally like 3 minutes before
53:47we started recording this. The episode
53:49released with Kyle Roof. And and so Kyle
53:53uh Kyle ranked for number one for like a
53:57rhine- rhinoplasty keyword in an SEO
53:59competition in 2018 using Lorem ipsum
54:02gibberish. And he just had the keywords
54:04in the right places and used an expired
54:06domain.
54:07And um and and this went so viral that
54:11it was reported on outside of SEO like
54:14this is a secret to Google's algorithm.
54:16Literally, they rank Lorem ipsum
54:18gibberish if you put the keywords in the
54:19right places. And so Google retaliated.
54:23And and so, you know, you're like, okay,
54:25you got to think about Can Google catch
54:27me? How could they catch me? Let me tell
54:29you what Google did. And and Kyle this
54:31is what Kyle shared on the on the pod.
54:34Google literally retaliated by not just
54:37taking down the Lorem ipsum page, but
54:40they de-indexed 20 of his test sites.
54:43And the way that they did that was they
54:45called the registrar. And they said,
54:47"What other websites does this guy
54:49have?" Because it's Google, the
54:51registrar told them. And then they
54:54de-indexed those sites.
54:56So so you And he's like, "None of them
54:58were connected on Google Search Console.
55:00I was using different devices, all sorts
55:02of different things like avoiding
55:03fingerprinting, all sorts They were not
55:06connected together." but they were
55:08connected together on the on the
55:10registrar.
55:11And and so Google just contacted the
55:14registrar. And so it's if you're you're
55:17playing black if you're playing super
55:19black hat
55:21and and you're going crazy and you're
55:22making Google look bad, that's a hard
55:24game to play.
55:26>> Yeah, yeah. So it's it's like
55:28it's like say say you wanted to do CTR
55:32manipulation.
55:34Well,
55:35if you just go on to one of these sites
55:36and you use a bunch of proxies and
55:39obviously they're going to figure that
55:41out. Those are just bots and stuff like
55:43that. Now,
55:45if you went crazy enough to actually
55:48contact
55:4920 to 50 people every day in that in
55:52that area and had them search that term
55:54on their computer
55:56and did it in an untraceable way,
55:59correct? Then you then you could then
56:01you could manipulate something with
56:03without worrying about anything because
56:05it's impossible to figure that out.
56:08Right?
56:09Especially if it's like different people
56:10every time, but you normally to pull
56:13something off
56:14that extremely affects things, you have
56:17to go to extreme measures to cover it
56:19up.
56:21As well, right? So
56:22>> No, and I don't know. For me, I don't
56:24like looking over my shoulder. I don't
56:25like having to worry about that.
56:27I want to live I want to live life and
56:29enjoy and enjoy stuff and build a build
56:32a brand that I can be proud of that I
56:33don't have to worry about. Yeah.
56:35>> Yeah, yeah. So at the end of the day
56:37those things they they just become
56:39tedious, you know? And then and then
56:40like you said, you got to look over your
56:42shoulder and are your rankings going to
56:43plummet at any moment and things like
56:45that and and whatnot.
56:48But me being a SEO for my own stuff for
56:49so long, you know, uh
56:52you put less risk into it cuz you
56:55cuz you're you're going to lose not just
56:56a client. You're not going to just lose
56:58a client, you know? You're going to like
57:00lose your your business. So
57:02>> [laughter]
57:03>> um you have to
57:04you have to
57:05>> the one of the
57:06things that people like the most about
57:08There's a lot of things that people like
57:09about my course, but there's a piece of
57:12feedback that I that really surprised me
57:14that I that I get. And um
57:17so so a lot of people are like, "I love
57:18this course, and I'm super happy that
57:20it's white hat." Uh and the reason that
57:23that's that that surprised me is because
57:25when I made the course, I'm like, "Oh my
57:27gosh, I feel like people who buy SEO
57:29courses, they want like some black hat
57:31like
57:32like
57:33type stuff, and that's just not what I'm
57:35going to give, and here's why I'm not
57:36going to give it, and and I really
57:38thought that that was going to be a
57:40problem that a lot of customers have.
57:42But literally, that's something that
57:44people tell me they're really happy that
57:46it is white hat. And I think a lot I
57:48think a lot of businesses are Maybe they
57:50always felt this way, and I was just
57:52hanging out with the wrong crowd, but
57:54like it feels like they're waking up to
57:55the fact like no, they don't want to
57:57have to look over their shoulder. They
57:58want results that are durable, that are
58:00sustainable, that last.
58:02>> Yeah.
58:02>> Um and and yeah, like they've Maybe they
58:05Maybe a lot of businesses by now it's
58:072026, almost 2027, they know they have
58:11friends where they've heard horror
58:12stories. Or just on this show, they've
58:14heard horror stories, and they're like,
58:15"Yeah, I I don't want to play that
58:17game."
58:18>> Yeah, and I I think a lot of it, too, is
58:20uh
58:21they may not necessarily want black hat,
58:23they want something that works.
58:25Right? So, the stuff you preach in your
58:28course works, right? So, making specific
58:31pages in the bottom of the funnel that
58:33that are
58:34created correctly and with the proper
58:37you know, headings and and and titles
58:39and all
58:40>> giving people what they want above the
58:41fold, the right type of template that's
58:43made to convert people, finding the
58:45right keywords. Literally, like yeah.
58:48Yes.
58:48>> Yeah. Yep. So, all that stuff works. So,
58:52I think most people just want results,
58:53right? They just want results. So,
58:55um if if it can be white hat, they're
58:57going to like it even better, right? Cuz
58:59then they know it's
59:00gets results and safe. It's It's like
59:02the same reason like I I'll never touch
59:04CTR cuz I'm like, "That's just obviously
59:06like
59:09Google's smarter than that." I mean,
59:11that's you know,
59:12it You know it works. We all know it
59:14works, right? Um to a certain extent cuz
59:17we know we know that they pay attention
59:19to that that leak. So, we all know
59:20that's true.
59:21>> I also have like I'm also like fearful
59:24of things being honeypots. I'm fearful
59:26I've tried a lot of things and I've gone
59:27to great lengths to
59:29to protect myself, but if like Google
59:31really wanted to find me, they could
59:32like I have done very black hat stuff.
59:35If Google really wanted to find me, be
59:36super easy.
59:38But um and I and I don't do that really
59:41anymore. But like I also think like
59:44yeah, like um cuz for a while I think
59:46there you know there was there was this
59:48uh theory that the disavow tool was kind
59:52of like a honeypot.
59:53Um and and it was it and Google's like,
59:56"Yeah, great. People are literally
59:57sharing these um
1:00:00these against the rules link networks."
1:00:02And so
1:00:03>> Oh, yeah. Here's the spam.
1:00:04>> Yeah, yeah. [laughter] And and so so not
1:00:06only can they can Google find now the
1:00:09link networks with the what I think what
1:00:11what it was was the update before really
1:00:14scared SEOs. And then they then they
1:00:16released the disavow tool. So, now all
1:00:18these scared SEOs were basically
1:00:20confessing their sins to Google.
1:00:22>> Yeah.
1:00:22>> I was one of them back then. Yeah. Yeah.
1:00:24>> Exactly.
1:00:25>> Penguin was the craziest thing
1:00:28that was
1:00:30and it it was sad too because
1:00:32um
1:00:33back then
1:00:35I like I think I said on the last
1:00:37episode but we did but like about 6 to
1:00:3912 months before it happened
1:00:42there were signals uh and chatter that
1:00:45you needed to ease back on anchor text
1:00:47links and and things like that, right?
1:00:49That that that talk had started, right?
1:00:52The talk had started, the balancing of
1:00:55um URL and brand links and things like
1:00:58that for anchors. Uh there was chatter,
1:01:01but no one can could confirm it
1:01:03correctly. You know, maybe Matt Cutts
1:01:05would say it or or whatever. And did we
1:01:07always believe Matt Cutts back then? Not
1:01:09really, but you know, half the time.
1:01:13Um
1:01:14but
1:01:15before that
1:01:17I don't think people necessarily knew
1:01:19they were doing something wrong.
1:01:21They just thought this is how you SEO,
1:01:23right? So
1:01:25it it was it was a saddening time
1:01:27because
1:01:30tens of thousands or millions of site
1:01:32owners
1:01:33were devastated
1:01:35by something maybe they did 3 years
1:01:37prior that they didn't even know was the
1:01:38wrong way to do something.
1:01:41Right? So
1:01:43they were told maybe by an SEO
1:01:46who was really even a SEO back then
1:01:47either like no one no one was it was
1:01:50like with AI SEO right now. Who's the AI
1:01:52SEO professional really right now? It's
1:01:54everybody saying they are that but we're
1:01:56all kind of just figuring it out, right?
1:01:59As we go here it's changing, it's
1:02:00evolving, it's you know what I mean?
1:02:02It's something new. So everybody's less
1:02:04professional, right? Than they would be
1:02:06when something's been around for a long
1:02:07time.
1:02:08So
1:02:09um prior to 2010
1:02:12a lot of not not a lot of people knew
1:02:14what they were doing. So I think a lot
1:02:15of people got blamed there that didn't
1:02:17really even know they were trying to
1:02:19trying to manipulate Google in that way.
1:02:21They just thought that's how you did it,
1:02:22right? They didn't they didn't really
1:02:24think and oh I'm a black hat, you know?
1:02:27They were just like oh we need some more
1:02:29links with that proper anchor text so we
1:02:31rank for that keyword and that's how
1:02:33Google works and that's what you do and
1:02:35you know? They didn't think about how
1:02:37many if they had too many or if they had
1:02:39them on the wrong type of sites or you
1:02:41know what I mean? They didn't think
1:02:42about that back then cuz no one even
1:02:46talked about that.
1:02:48Right? So um
1:02:51it's it's
1:02:52it's a it's crazy when they do big
1:02:54updates um like this.
1:02:56So hopefully this proximity thing will
1:02:58be adjusted but we'll we'll find out.
1:03:01>> We going to see.
1:03:02>> out.
1:03:02>> We going to see.
1:03:04>> to see.
1:03:04>> We going to we going to we going to F
1:03:05around and find out.
1:03:06>> Yeah. [laughter] Well Google's Google's
1:03:08Google's F'ing around and and
1:03:09>> Yeah. They're F'ing around with it. And
1:03:11we're the ones that are finding out.
1:03:13Yeah. Yes. [laughter] Yes. True. True.
1:03:15They're F'ing around with something. But
1:03:17uh yeah. No it's it'll be interesting.
1:03:19Like I said, like this benefits some and
1:03:21hurts others. So, it it that's how every
1:03:23update is, right? And uh we'll see what
1:03:25happens. And I know they're doing some
1:03:26fun stuff in organic as well. I've
1:03:28noticed, too. Harder to put a finger on
1:03:30that one, I think, sometimes because
1:03:32there's so many different um
1:03:34you know, aspects to that, so many
1:03:36different uh signals there that it's a
1:03:39little harder to figure out what
1:03:41happened sometimes.
1:03:42Um
1:03:44but, yeah. Yeah. We'll see what We'll
1:03:46see what goes down.
1:03:46>> The next episode of Dragon Ball Z.
1:03:50>> That's what it is. My my uh one of uh
1:03:53somebody that I used to work with, we
1:03:55would always end our calls that way.
1:03:56He'd be like, "Well, on the next episode
1:03:58of Dragon Ball Z." All right. Matt,
1:04:00thank you again. This episode 1,214 of
1:04:02the show. 1,214 days in a row doing this
1:04:04podcast. If you watch this on YouTube,
1:04:06thank you so much for watching. If you
1:04:08listened on Spotify or Apple Podcast,
1:04:09thank you so much for listening, and I
1:04:11will talk to you again
1:04:15tomorrow.
1:04:17Bye now.

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