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Global Ethics Forum: A Conversation with Lieutenant-General Roméo A. Dallaire — Transcript

by Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs · 4,369 words · 635 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01[Music]
0:05coming up the horror of child
0:07soldiers if we're not reacting on a
0:10moral side then maybe we got to start
0:11reacting on a security side cuz child
0:14soldiers is secur security problem
0:16retired Canadian Army Lieutenant General
0:18Romeo deir discusses his initiative to
0:20stop the military use of children it's
0:22just ahead on Global Ethics
0:24[Music]
0:25Forum good evening I'm Jim TR and
0:29welcome to ethics matter uh Our Guest
0:32this evening is uh General Romeo deir uh
0:35General deir is renowned as the UN Force
0:39Commander in Rwanda
0:411994 who desperately urged the UN and
0:44its member states to intervene to stop
0:46the genocide there and when that failed
0:50did whatever he could himself with a
0:52tiny contingent of peacekeepers saving
0:54thousands of lives from the genocide
0:56that ultimately took 800,000 lives his
0:59book about that searing moment shake
1:02hands with the devil uh was also made
1:04into a very well-known documentary of
1:06the same name General deair has drawn on
1:09his experience to create the Romeo deair
1:12child soldiers initiative which seeks to
1:14train police and soldiers to prevent the
1:16use and recruitment of child soldiers
1:19and to Advocate on behalf of the issue
1:21General deair thank you so much for
1:22being here this evening thank you very
1:24kind so I wanted to ask you first it's
1:27now the 20th anniversary of the genocide
1:31and I'm wondering from what you know
1:34about how the world has or hasn't
1:37changed if this happened again
1:40today what's your sense of how if at all
1:45the world's response would be different
1:46from what it was then I fear that I'm
1:50not convinced that the world response
1:52would be different particularly when
1:56we're looking at sub Sahara Africa I
2:00think what however is worse about today
2:02is is that when we stumbled into this uh
2:05New Era after the Cold War and all these
2:08failing States and imploding Nations and
2:10Civil Wars uh we were on a very steep
2:14learning curve uh in the different
2:16disciplines be it uh diplomatic
2:19political military security and so on H
2:23and and we were trying to figure out
2:24what what to do and so uh we have been
2:29nearly 20 5 years doing Lessons Learned
2:31in all these conflicts yet we still see
2:34a fear of using responsibility to
2:36protect which was one of the great
2:38Innovations of of our time which has
2:40made now sovereignty no more an absolute
2:42which I think is
2:44extraordinary uh but applying it is
2:46another another story so now we've we've
2:49had all the experience we've seen it all
2:51yet we don't seem to be able to get
2:53ahead of the game we're still reacting
2:55to conflicts we're still trying to pick
2:57up the pieces or we're trying to throw
2:59some C cash at it afterwards and so I
3:02think it's it's worse now because we do
3:04have tools but we just don't have the
3:07political Elites the the the sort of
3:09statesmanship to want to apply it so if
3:12you think about the institutions that
3:14failed to act then which is the UN
3:17Security Council and the major member
3:19states would you say that any of them in
3:22your mind have really internalize that
3:25failure in a way that would make them
3:28different whether it's the UN or the us
3:30or other major Western powers or is your
3:32sense that they haven't it sounds from
3:34your Anri maybe you think they haven't
3:36there there's been gestures I mean
3:38there's been reforms like the Bimi
3:40reform but nowhere near enough uh in the
3:43late '90s there's been the the
3:45introduction of the optional protocol on
3:47child rights which which uh makes it a
3:50crime against humanity to recruit child
3:51soldiers who became a primary weapon
3:54system uh in the 90s and still is today
3:58the US has uh Samantha power in
4:01particular when she was there security
4:03adviser brought in the mass atrocities
4:06Advisory Board to prepare a
4:09multi-disciplinary multihole of
4:11government sort of construct on how to
4:13handle these these crisises um and
4:17hopefully uh the the desire to to handle
4:20them and Kofi andan did bring in to uh
4:23of which I I was a member the genocide
4:25prevention Advisory Board and genocide
4:28prevention under secretary LinkedIn with
4:31r2p uh and uh they've been working at
4:35trying to prevent uh this from happening
4:38but that that level is still nowhere
4:42near uh the political Capital that that
4:46politicians are prepared to invest I
4:49wonder if the UN is just not capable of
4:51acting preventively because in order to
4:54act preventively you have to act before
4:56there's a crisis in order to act before
4:58there's a crisis you have to be able to
4:59say to people invest resources now even
5:03though people aren't slaughtering each
5:05other and the the SEC Secretariat has an
5:09enormous amount of difficulty getting
5:12the me member states to act in a timely
5:15way before it's exploded all over
5:19CNN that brings you to an interesting
5:23point is how much does really the
5:25security Council grasp of the scenarios
5:28out there I mean what assets does it
5:31really have in order to be able to go
5:34into the the uh the bringing together of
5:38the information the analysis of it the
5:41dissemination of the intelligence
5:42information to give them a sense of of
5:45to what extent is it's it's happening
5:47one of the reasons why uh you created
5:50the genocide prevention office and r2p
5:53office was to Garner all the different
5:56uh agencies and departments who have
5:58massive amounts of of information but
6:00they're not they're not feeding it to
6:01each other so even within the
6:04Secretariat they're not pulling all that
6:06data together but the security Council
6:08has no strategic planning has no
6:10strategic uh command and control has no
6:13strategic sort of uh options into the
6:16future it it's got itself and it turns
6:19to the secretary and that depends on
6:20what the Secretary General is willing to
6:22do some isolate the secretaria from from
6:25the security Council others are more
6:27willing so I I think that
6:30first of all the security Council does
6:32not have the tools and the reforms that
6:34kofan was trying to bring in got shot
6:37down uh and and so nobody's picked up
6:39the ball on that the second thing is is
6:41that many of those countries don't
6:44necessarily see that it's in their
6:46personal
6:47self-interest and as long as Humanity
6:50continues to be dominated by
6:52self-interest well you're going to keep
6:55this whole exercise of all humans not
6:58necessarily being on the same playing
6:59field feel
7:00ongoing it is in my opinion in our
7:04self-interest that children are not
7:06recruited in countries like Central
7:08African Republic that you create
7:09catastrophic failures because that means
7:12there's going to be a longevity to the
7:14conflict and and that means there going
7:16to be massive movement of people
7:18pandemics uh uh extremism that can turn
7:21into terrorism uh availability of
7:24resources that are going to be limited
7:25because it's a conflict Zone and God
7:28knows the impact they may have on the
7:30diasporas in our own country so all
7:33those conflicts have an interest in us
7:36but we don't seem to be able to Gras
7:37yeah we repeat the idea that it is in
7:40our interest and not just a moral
7:41proposition but the fact is states don't
7:43really feel that they feel like it may
7:45be the right thing to do but it's not a
7:47matter of national interest and and it's
7:50absolutely wonderful you raised this
7:52point of moral reference because I mean
7:55we we don't like Wars with using look at
7:58what happened with chemical weapons and
7:59so on
8:01that how come we can tolerate Wars where
8:04the primary weapon system are children I
8:06mean the the children are massively used
8:09and yet we don't seem to be wanting to
8:12engage certainly not even in preventing
8:14let alone trying to stop them and what
8:16tools do we have to stop that
8:18Recruitment and to uh divert that youth
8:22into another another uh Arena than
8:25simply going uh to force recruitment
8:28because there's no volunteer in in
8:30recruitment of child soldiers country
8:32that's in a state of conflict there's no
8:35such thing as as volunteering I mean
8:37you're doing it because you want you're
8:38seeking safety or whatever but it's not
8:40because you you really want to go and
8:42fight so we we're in a we're in an era
8:45where uh the moral reference I mean
8:49children doesn't carry the weight so
8:52that's where when I started to look at
8:54that dimension of genocide prevention
8:57Mass atrocities uh the art 2p the
9:00operational I started to see that that
9:03the Child Soldier side of it uh which
9:06was a forerunner of many of the
9:07conflicts like in
9:09Rwanda uh why why isn't there a reaction
9:14to uh the use of
9:16children and so if we're not reacting on
9:18the moral side then maybe we got to
9:20start reacting on the security side
9:22because child soldiers is secur security
9:24problem and so it's an extension of the
9:26security scenario and so it's got to be
9:29raised to that level and then reaction
9:32should be according to that to that
9:34level of insecurity and only when you do
9:37bring security back will those child
9:38Souls not be required of course well let
9:41me ask you about the transition in your
9:43own life from this searing period in
9:45Rwanda until you created the child
9:47soldiers initiative because you've been
9:49very open about the immense trauma that
9:52you went through including thoughts of
9:54suicide and so forth attempts attempts
9:58attempts that's much stronger than
10:00thoughts uh and it really strikes me in
10:03reading about your story that um the
10:07people who have a conscience wind up
10:09suffering in a way that the people who
10:12may have been the cause of this so much
10:15suffering but don't have the conscience
10:18they actually wind up not suffering
10:21whereas you who actually were one of the
10:23great Heroes of this story wound up
10:26suffering enormously for it and I'm sure
10:29that that irony must have struck you at
10:32times I I get a certain Solace of
10:36that um by the fact that we we've
10:40introduced instruments to try to fight
10:43impunity and so that people simply won't
10:46be able to walk away from it as they
10:48have I think the introd introduction
10:51through the Rome statute of the
10:53international criminal court to
10:55operationalize it to give it more more
10:57legs uh is it is an important factor in
11:01making people realize that uh you you
11:04can be held accountable uh sooner or
11:06later for the actions you take but in
11:09regards to us who have been into it
11:11Rwanda was a genocide it was a civil war
11:14but the killing was done and mly was
11:17done by youths a militia young wing of a
11:22political party that was slowly
11:23converted into a militia and
11:26indoctrinated into hate and they're the
11:28ones who did it let's talk in more
11:31detail about the Child Soldier
11:33initiative that you've created so maybe
11:35just first you can just explain what the
11:38scope of the initiative is that that
11:41you've authored what we've garnered by
11:45being an intellectually rigorous body
11:48because it's based at dalh Housey
11:50University Dr Witman who's here is our
11:53executive director uh it's a
11:55research-based
11:57training and advocacy by body that is
12:01working at ultimately the mission is to
12:03eradicate the use of children as weapons
12:06of war eradicate means getting it out of
12:09the minds of adults that they actually
12:11can turn to kids to do this uh and in so
12:14doing the application of it is by
12:17preventing their Recruitment and
12:19introducing methodologies in that
12:21including even in school programs uh and
12:25when they are so recruited is preparing
12:27military and police for security forces
12:30to be able to handle these child
12:31soldiers uh without letting it escalate
12:34to force on force or without simply
12:36treating them as combatants and
12:38destroying them as we're still seeing
12:40and so discovering that no military in
12:43the world except the Marine Corps us I'm
12:46graduate from US Marine Corps staff
12:48college and they had in their Doctrine
12:50uh avoid confrontation that was the only
12:52thing they had well that gets a little
12:54difficult at times although it may not
12:56be a bad idea if the only solution is to
13:00to start destroying them so we build
13:04these training capabilities uh of both
13:07contingents and National capabilities of
13:09nations in order for them to comprehend
13:13uh that children young people can be uh
13:17prevented from being recruited and also
13:19can be neutralized as a weapon system
13:22without necessarily the use of force so
13:24let's talk separately about these two
13:25very difficult Parts the prevention part
13:28and then what you do when when you're
13:29confronted with child soldiers because
13:31you said in the end prevention means
13:34persuading the insurgents and others
13:37National armies who would be using child
13:39soldiers that they couldn't I have to
13:41say that
13:42seems implausible to me and that
13:46is uh given
13:49how what a what a cheap and Expendable
13:52resource children are from the point of
13:54view of the people who are going to be
13:56doing this how do you persuade them that
13:58it's not in their in their
14:01interest to basically take some
14:0410-year-old and give them a gun and the
14:07demographics would go along with that
14:09too of how many of those countries have
14:11such large portions of population under
14:1315 let alone under 18 and one of the
14:17things we do we're now in fact building
14:20a national capability in sier Leone
14:22president cron has uh mandated us and
14:25we're looking at and we've been training
14:27trainers now uh who in fact have been
14:30communicating with us through the Ebola
14:33uh scenario of what's been going on and
14:35we've trained participate with the
14:37British to train the contingent going
14:39into into uh Somalia and uh we we we're
14:44into the the exercise with them of the
14:48attempts at bringing uh the the Child
14:51Soldier dimension of uh of training to
14:55uh the military and police to an extent
14:58where we can convince them that they're
15:01a disadvantage to an advantage and so
15:04you you walk them through uh so what are
15:06the negatives we can understand the
15:07positives last all too well what are the
15:09negatives that you try to persuade them
15:11of well they only can carry so much
15:13ammunition and weapons uh the training
15:15has got to be very focused and very
15:17limited so your maneuver capabilities
15:20are extremely uh limited uh they are
15:24prone to sickness and disease so you
15:26lose a lot your rotation they're also
15:28very truthful so if they ever get caught
15:31uh you know the whole beans will be
15:32spilled and they are working often
15:35essentially under Jess all the time so
15:38unless you've got an ability to really
15:40maintain control of them uh you're going
15:43to be in continuous rebuilding your your
15:45forces because they're escaping the
15:47minute the shooting starts and so on
15:49you're going to be wasting a lot of
15:51assets because they're not very skilled
15:53at at the use of force uh and so you
15:56start going down this this penly of
15:59points and then you say well what was
16:01your aim you what do you want to achieve
16:04with your this conflict and they start
16:06to realize and maybe they're not going
16:08to achieve it because the the scale or
16:10the capabilities of our Force simply
16:12won't achieve that so but let's talk
16:14about the other side of this the
16:16question of what you are training the
16:19security Personnel to do in the
16:21situation where they're confronted by a
16:25child holding a gun uh facing them so
16:29because I would think they might say to
16:31you these kids are nuts I you know they
16:33they're too young to have a conscience
16:35yet and so I can't afford to uh uh do
16:39things that might spare their lives I've
16:41just got to shoot first and ask
16:42questions later so what do you tell them
16:45that they can do and should do one of
16:47the interesting things is is that they
16:49don't shoot first yeah is that when
16:50they're facing a child they back off and
16:54in the training we've been doing we've
16:55been seeing more peacekeepers saying
16:57well their kids and we're not too sure
16:59how they're going to react so we'll back
17:01off and we'll send in maybe some Child
17:04Protection people or or some or we'll
17:06we'll see how we can maybe get around
17:08the problem and giving ground to and
17:11giving credence to those who are using
17:13which of course makes them a
17:13tremendously effective platform
17:15absolutely and the other thing is is
17:17that there's a spectrum of things you
17:18can do before you actually end up uh
17:21with a with a force on Force Gun to gun
17:23scenario uh in in the different
17:26situations because it's not that often
17:28that to actually have the the the
17:31outright fighting it's the maneuvering
17:33it's the checkpoints it's the it's how
17:35to prevent them from being able to be
17:38used effectively and and in so doing uh
17:41we're discovering that the forces are
17:43are just not wanting to look at those
17:46options except finding themselves in
17:48either catastrophic scenarios of force
17:50on Force and and we're not negating that
17:53there may be circumstances where yeah
17:55you may end up killing children in
17:57extremist but that doesn't necessarily
18:00be the doctrine and we believe that you
18:02can build the doctrine from which you
18:04get your training your your tactics your
18:07equipment including non-lethal weapons
18:09if necessary organizations to face child
18:12soldiers and so we we are very convinced
18:16and so as we see them is that uh there
18:19are ways of de-escalating
18:21scenarios in order to not give ground
18:25but also not necessarily destroy the
18:27children uh one of the angles that we're
18:32hoping to get uh funding because we're
18:34always on the scr of course is women in
18:37the forces police and military being
18:40more in the front lines in conflicts
18:43where child soldiers are there for the
18:45children are linking much easier to the
18:48presence of women than they are to to to
18:52men and particularly the girls because
18:55up to 40% of child soldiers are girls
18:57when you imagine child soldiers you
19:00think boy so it's striking for you to
19:02say actually 40% of them the Child
19:05Soldier is not necessarily the AK-47 boy
19:0813 blowing away you know everybody
19:10around him in fact a child soldiers any
19:12youth engaged or caught up into a force
19:17uh that is uh employing them uh in a
19:20they could be carrying weapons back and
19:21forth towards the front they could water
19:24running to Biv wax male dominated
19:26societies the girls in fact build the
19:28Biv wax get all the logistics and also
19:31even being used as sex sles and Bush
19:33wives so the that whole all that is a
19:35Child Soldier and not just the one up
19:38front and so uh how to get at them uh
19:43not only when they're in fact use up
19:45front but in the other Arenas is part of
19:47the training assets and the tactics
19:49we're working
19:53on Ian Fishback uh I'm on the faculty at
19:56West Point uh I've encountered children
19:59on the battlefield it's a pressing issue
20:02most of the things you were talking
20:03about struck me as things that might
20:05affect a tactical decision by an
20:07individual Soldier but they didn't
20:09strike me as gamechangers that would
20:12really change the Strategic Dynamic on
20:14the battlefield and so as I think of
20:16what might tip the
20:18balance and
20:20deter otherwise uh immoral or at least
20:26amoral uh commanders from using child
20:28soldiers and recruiting them one would
20:30be overwhelming force uh you could bring
20:33a lot of force to Bear probably at
20:34relatively low cost uh but you'd kill a
20:38lot of children I think that's ethically
20:41wrong um but the other way I think you
20:43could do it
20:45is try to crack the code on what keeps
20:49the children from surrendering because
20:51it's probably different in significant
20:54ways than what keeps adults from
20:57surrendering or it might not be I don't
20:58I don't know but it's a question worth
20:59pursuing I wonder if you've pursued it
21:02if you found anything
21:03out what your ideas would be you're
21:07right that uh we're at times you might
21:10think that we're nickel and diing the
21:11Tactical scenario by training these
21:14soldiers however in in a mission area
21:16when you look at places like in fact the
21:18Congo and Central African Republic uh
21:21when the South Africans lost 16 guys to
21:24child soldiers it became a massive
21:26problem I mean the nation backed off
21:29uh and so uh it the those tactical
21:33engagements by the military working with
21:36the police and also interesting we're
21:39opening the debate and discussions with
21:42the NGO world because they've got all
21:44kinds of information uh that's that's a
21:47available if they they trust the
21:49military and so I've got real problems
21:51with the humanitarian space and
21:53neutrality you know the the NGO that
21:56won't use a military but is going to
21:58hire uh uh a security company that's
22:00made up of all exmilitary and and what
22:02are the rules of engagement those guys
22:04are using and so on so I think there's
22:06some interesting ethical debates going
22:08on but I I believe that what we're doing
22:11is making people trust each other
22:14exchange intelligence information police
22:16military and so many NGS and in so doing
22:20get ahead of the game in regards to the
22:22use of force uh by yes overwhelming
22:25Force certain areas or simply changing
22:27their tactics of how to handle like the
22:30use of women and like so the nut you
22:33know the attrition of the use of
22:35children is not insignificant because
22:38they are you don't need hundreds of
22:40thousands of them to to scare The Living
22:43Daylights out of adults particularly a
22:4613-year-old with at AK-47 is totally
22:49unpredictable the kid who put that AK-47
22:52in my nostril in Ronda at a checkpoint
22:55and his eyeballs are that big and his
22:56fingers on the trigger and all the other
22:58kids are around screaming and yelling
23:00and he's sweating you absolutely have no
23:03idea what's going to make him pull that
23:04trigger an adult you can give a better
23:07sense but the kid could have and what
23:10saved me I believe is the chocolate bar
23:11in my head which which threw him off and
23:13then we we moved out so the Tactical
23:17Dimensions crucial how to pull them out
23:21how to extract them I was in the Congo
23:24extracting some child soldiers um use of
23:27radio station
23:29radio is is extraordinary informing them
23:32how to do that informing the troops how
23:35to uh extract them as an example the
23:39kids wanting to demobilize or or come
23:41out they come up to a un force and the
23:43guy says well you know the rules say
23:45that I got to hand you over to UNICEF
23:47and the UNICEF guy is coming in tomorrow
23:49morning so come back
23:52tomorrow I just simplistic things like
23:55that and the use of of indirect direct
23:58fire uh can also be of significance
24:01without necessarily attacking them but I
24:04I think that your your your position and
24:07what we are very much engaged in is the
24:09prevention of the Recruitment and and so
24:12once the recruitment they're recruited
24:14how do you you pull them back out is by
24:17indirect means and the the radios making
24:20forces amiable bringing women more to
24:24the for they see them they're they're
24:26because they're all over the kids you
24:27know they're doing do recuit they're
24:29doing reconnaissance so and they will
24:31see that atmosphere significantly Chang
24:34but most of the forces don't even know
24:35that most of the forces don't even
24:37recognize that the two 12 13 year old
24:40loitering around or the 14-year-old is
24:43doing their their their laundry may be
24:46in fact a wrecky for the force that's
24:49that's the belligerent Force there and
24:51that and that you you you don't use them
24:54uh and you got to report them many don't
24:57even report the fact that they've seen
24:59child soldiers just say we we faced so
25:01and so but is that because they so take
25:03for granted the exploitation of children
25:05that way that it doesn't strike them as
25:07a shocking thing to see so not
25:10reportable not worthy of being reported
25:12well you know that's interesting in that
25:14angle but I I think it's just that they
25:16they they they're doing it as per uh the
25:20criteria that has been established so
25:22far and that and that we haven't pushed
25:24that to the extent of of recognizing the
25:27difference of use of child soldiers to
25:30adults I mean it took a long time for us
25:32to segregate when they were demobilizing
25:34them the kids uh well men and women to
25:37start with and kids from adults uh so
25:39this is still an element that often they
25:42they don't realize that maybe they
25:43should be reporting and that we can
25:46collate that data and give us an
25:48opportunity of of preventing future
25:50recruitment by providing security maybe
25:52to Villages or areas uh without having
25:55to do the Gulu walks but certainly do
25:57something of of more significance than
25:59simply watch them being extracted pulled
26:02out of their Villages and and us
26:04watching it happen it's you're you're
26:07you're right into the heart of it well
26:08done well done West Point General deair
26:11it's I have to say I find it very
26:12inspiring that a person who's seen as
26:15much horror as you retains that
26:17hopefulness and idealism thank you so
26:19much for coming here
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About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Global Ethics Forum: A Conversation with Lieutenant-General Roméo A. Dallaire by Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 4,369 words across 635 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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