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Gill Hicks AM MBE In-Conversation with Tory Shepherd — Transcript

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0:00this recording is protected by copyright
0:02no part may be reproduced without the
0:04prior permission of the university of
0:06south australia
0:18good evening my name is jacinta thompson
0:21and i'm the executive director and
0:24events and exhibitions producer
0:25for the bob hawk prime ministerial
0:28center
0:30i would like to acknowledge that the
0:32land we meet on today
0:33is ghana land and we wish to express our
0:36respect
0:37for the ghana people their elders and
0:40ancestors
0:42and acknowledge the spiritual and
0:44cultural relationship the ghana people
0:46have with their traditional land
0:49it gives me great pleasure to welcome
0:52you all here tonight
0:53on behalf of the hawke center and the
0:55university of south australia
0:58to our event with jill hicks am mbe
1:02who will be in conversation with author
1:04and journalist tori shepard
1:07i would like to thank jill welcome jill
1:09and thank you
1:11for taking time out of your incredibly
1:13busy fringe schedule
1:15and other work schedules to join us once
1:17again at the hawke center
1:19and to also welcome back the fabulous
1:21tory shepherd
1:24the hawk centre is committed to
1:25delivering a diverse program of free
1:28events and exhibitions
1:29throughout the year which reflect our
1:31fundamental themes
1:33of strengthening our democracy valuing
1:35our diversity
1:36and building our future so
1:40jill hicks a published author
1:43musician artist and mother
1:49jill's appreciation and gratitude for
1:52life
1:53is present throughout all her creative
1:55works
1:56she returned to australia after 25 years
1:59in london
2:00continuing her passion for communicating
2:03the importance of recognizing as shared
2:05humanity
2:06by launching a new practice exploring
2:09music
2:10art and narrative as powerful forms of
2:12universal language
2:15recognized and awarded for her work
2:18within the arts community in healthcare
2:20jill received both an mbe and an am
2:24for her ongoing devotion to making a
2:26positive difference
2:27through her own adversity now before we
2:30head into the
2:31in conversation we're going to show you
2:35a short
2:36film from jill's wonderful fringe show
2:39titled still alive and kicking thank you
3:26[Music]
3:57[Music]
4:26so
4:30[Music]
6:32so
6:36[Music]
7:11reports are just coming in of an
7:12explosion here in london
7:17[Music]
7:22wow june
7:32i was saying to you just before it feels
7:34almost soothing but you came up with the
7:36right word it's more
7:37meditative you want to talk us through
7:39it absolutely so what
7:41what that piece of film uh means to me
7:45is in the hour
7:48that we were waiting for rescue in the
7:51carriage
7:52after the explosion which i had no idea
7:55what had happened
7:58i had the most extraordinary experience
8:02of hovering between life and death
8:07and i only sort of
8:10talk about death in terms of its
8:12absolute
8:14beauty and how i've come to understand
8:17it which is
8:19that it's not an ending but another
8:22dimension
8:23of life and
8:26death came to me as this beautiful voice
8:29and it said to me
8:30you know it told me that i'd lost both
8:33of my legs
8:35and i remember thinking what you know i
8:38feel no pain
8:40that whatever this voice is saying this
8:42can't be
8:43true and it was so beautiful and
8:46soothing that it was asking me to come
8:48and i remember looking down to where my
8:51legs would have been and i thought
8:53gosh this voice is right it's telling me
8:57the right information so i felt more
8:58convinced about
9:00following it and in that space of time
9:05the film of my life started to play
9:08and what really got to me
9:12is that in all the years i'd been in
9:14london
9:15i was an absolute committed workaholic
9:19so i was the person that was at my desk
9:21at 7
9:2230 every morning and i'd be the last to
9:25leave at
9:25half 10 and you know i smoked and i
9:28drank and i had all of the trappings
9:31of that life and yet my film
9:35was this capturing of moments
9:39and it was so important that
9:42the touching of a textile i could smell
9:46perfume um i could taste
9:49you know my favorite pasta and the big
9:52thing that got to me
9:54was i was i was brought up i was born in
9:56glenelg and
9:57brought up by the seashore and
10:00the thing that really got to me whilst
10:03watching this
10:04film of my life was
10:07the absolute sense that i was back at
10:10the beach
10:12and almost that um do you know
10:15and i don't know whether whether it
10:16still happens you can tell me if it does
10:18or not but
10:19i remember as a kid running on the hot
10:21sand
10:22and it's so hot that it burns the
10:24bottoms of your feet you just have to
10:26really make a mad dash all the way to
10:28the ocean
10:29and that's what i was thinking about i
10:31think it's only been getting hotter
10:35i'd melt now
10:39on the sand you're awfully chipper for
10:42someone who talked to death
10:43but it was beautiful it was beautiful
10:46and and
10:47after seeing these this sort of series
10:50of moments and i i kind of felt
10:55that i haven't had enough of that now
10:58that i know how important they are
11:01my overwhelming sense was i want
11:04to actually have more of that so i'm
11:06going to choose
11:08to take the more challenging option
11:11which is to stay alive
11:14and so you started your second life so
11:18in exactly in that moment it was it was
11:21the beginning of a second life
11:23in your first life where do you reckon
11:25you would be
11:26by now what was first
11:29i would still be in london i'd probably
11:31still be i'd be in lockdown right now so
11:33i'd be frustrated
11:34um look it's hard i think when you
11:38when you get when you live a life
11:41where you you allow
11:44you allow yourself to be overwhelmed by
11:48the your idea of what's important and to
11:50me
11:52i thought that what i was doing and i
11:55worked in design
11:57i thought i was working on the
11:59equivalent of
12:00curing cancer you know i really thought
12:03that it was
12:04i was super important and i was doing
12:07something that was
12:08filled with purpose what really got to
12:11me was after six months of being gone
12:14from the from my work i came back
12:17i was i came back in a wheelchair and
12:20everyone was a little bit kind of
12:22perturbed at having to change the um
12:26the facilities because the disabled
12:29facilities were was the closet so that's
12:31where all the brooms and
12:33and mops and everything were kept and
12:35suddenly that oh
12:36god so they're like we're going to have
12:38to do something in a wheelchair you know
12:41um so all of those so i they're they're
12:44the things that i would never have
12:45noticed before
12:46um and coming back you know i i will
12:49never
12:50ever forget that i went to a meeting i
12:53had my
12:54my to-do list and it literally had that
12:58little tiny bit of film of dust over it
13:00and i thought
13:01what do you mean like no one's picked
13:04this up in six months
13:06and this was like you know the bible and
13:09the design world
13:11the design world didn't fall apart but
13:13even worse story was
13:15i was going back to meetings that was
13:18the same meeting
13:19so you know we all know that don't we
13:22we're
13:23yeah yeah let's drill down on that let's
13:25action
13:26points five to seven were you worried
13:28that maybe
13:29you had died and you're in the bad place
13:35[Laughter]
13:39it's interesting when you know when you
13:42have that enlightenment
13:46that sudden idea of you know
13:49exposure of what life really is about
13:52and then you go back and that i didn't
13:55need any more convincing i just said
13:57i'm out this is madness and um and off i
14:00went now tell me so spoken about
14:03enlightenment and another dimension
14:06were you religious before the attack
14:09um i'd say i was a very spiritual person
14:12i was brought up
14:14in a in a deeply religious family
14:17um my mother so i was with my mother
14:21when she died my both my parents died
14:23when i was
14:24quite young and my mother died of
14:27pancreatic cancer
14:28and so she had three months from
14:31diagnosis
14:32to passing and i think for me i was
14:36quite taken
14:37by her deep sense of
14:40of faith that it made it such
14:44more of an easy coming to terms with
14:48um because she trusted in this idea of
14:52you know god has taken me to heaven
14:56um so i saw a beauty
14:59in in a comfort in having something like
15:02that
15:03um for me i i think i'm
15:06i'm i'm more taken by
15:09the idea of
15:12nature and that
15:16an idea of god for me lives
15:19in everything that's beautiful around us
15:23that is lovely that's how i feel
15:26and now you're in your second life do
15:28you want to give us a quick rundown of
15:29what you've been doing lately and this
15:31is me letting you plug your fringe show
15:34so take full advantage
15:37well i just so yes so i've decided that
15:41after after the year that was last year
15:45um and life changed for for everybody
15:48in in various ways i thought well let's
15:51do
15:52a couple of things that are completely
15:54mad
15:55one of them was i picked up some
15:58clippers
15:58and i just shaved my hair off and i
16:00thought this is me having a
16:02not only a tantrum but but owning
16:05change i felt that that sort of strong
16:07urge of
16:08the whole world has changed around me so
16:11i'm going to change
16:12me so i can confront this idea of
16:15extreme
16:16change head-on is that about control
16:19about
16:20was that about seizing back a bit of
16:21control in the chaos
16:23yeah absolutely it's it's controlling
16:26the things that i feel like that when
16:27you're in an uncontrollable environment
16:30and also that i could look like gi jane
16:32or gi jill
16:33and um have a kind of a you know a a
16:36warlike approach or a military approach
16:39to
16:39how i would how i was this is not very
16:41war-like this is just moody it's
16:43beautiful
16:44so but nice try i didn't have my khakis
16:46around um
16:49yeah so so there was that and then i i
16:51thought
16:52actually the thing that that where my
16:55soul
16:56really comes alive is within
17:00music and art and um
17:03so the opportunity came almost by
17:07universal divinity of um
17:11doing a fringe show but not just doing a
17:13friend show doing
17:1412 friend shows and i remember when i
17:16was sort of composing it and creating it
17:19and that half idea of well that's
17:21probably not going to happen so it'll be
17:23fine and
17:24off it all goes on the email and and
17:26then here we are we've just done our
17:27first run
17:29um and wow
17:32yeah i think the first i heard of you
17:33doing a fringe show was when you made a
17:36ring with a qr code
17:39which is genius i have a bag with i
17:42i just went qr code mad so
17:46i i think what not a covert cue just
17:49just in case it wasn't clear
17:50well you could just scan it and it'll
17:51take you to book a ticket at our show
17:53what what i felt um instinctively
17:57was how hard it actually is so it's not
17:59a given
18:00that you can sell out um so we've just
18:02gone mad and made all of these
18:04qr codes so people think that i work for
18:07sa health
18:08[Laughter]
18:10and they try and check in wherever i am
18:13and then and then find it a bit alarming
18:15when they find themselves at the botanic
18:17gardens
18:19is this to say healthy you'll love it it
18:21lasts it out
18:23it's the cure for all things um so
18:26i i i you know putting the design hat on
18:30i just i i absolutely appreciated that
18:32it is not a given to be able to sell
18:3512 shows out um and how do we do this
18:39with
18:39with a bit of fun with some elegance
18:42without trying to beat people down all
18:44the time no one wants to be sold to
18:46so you can imagine if i'm out and about
18:48with this and i've got the same thing on
18:50a ring and a necklace
18:52it creates conversation and then people
18:54feel a bit awkward so if they've said
18:56oh what's that ring you've got and i
18:58said oh
18:59that's tickets to the show and then
19:01you've got them and then they can't say
19:03oh well i'll get that next time it's
19:05like
19:06they're caught in the moment so they
19:07have to sort of scan it go
19:09okay well i'll be seeing you on the
19:10night then fantastic bye
19:13tell your friends um so it's been it's
19:16been a
19:16joy to talk about and sell
19:20in a completely different way yeah i'm
19:22amazed everybody else didn't steal your
19:24idea frankly um and most recently
19:27i saw you invent a word to describe
19:31excellent sighted exercises so it's not
19:34like exorcism
19:35no no so it's exercised and and it's
19:38that
19:39it's that sort of space where you are so
19:43completely exhausted because of the lead
19:46up to
19:47doing all of these you know fringe the
19:49madness starts before march
19:52and then giving your rule so
19:55everything goes in to what happens on
19:57that stage
19:59but it's still incredibly exciting and
20:01every moment
20:02as the lights go down and the show
20:04starts
20:05i have this absolute overwhelming
20:08sense of what a privilege it is to be
20:11here
20:12and to share this the space with such
20:14extraordinary
20:16musicians and and and communicate in a
20:19way
20:20that that fits the soul yeah
20:24now into much more serious topics do you
20:26mean that wasn't serious
20:27no that was actually that was reflective
20:30and lovely and philosophical
20:32and now let's talk about violent
20:33extremism um not violent extremism the
20:36show no that's next fridge
20:38yeah yeah oh a musical yeah violet
20:40extremism the musical
20:42no no so the show is still alive and
20:45kicking everybody but you don't even
20:46need to know that you can just come and
20:48scan a bag
20:50um so this has become a large part of
20:52your
20:53second life do you think of it as your
20:55sort of second i do
20:56absolutely um for me there's a very
20:59clear demarcation line
21:02it's only been recently that i've
21:04started to understand that
21:05i have been cheeky enough to to draw the
21:08tentacles a little bit from the first
21:10life
21:11so painting singing they're all the
21:14little strings of the first life
21:16i still wear black i used to wear black
21:18before so there's part of me that feels
21:21comfortable in the second life um
21:23equally
21:24working in essentially the field of
21:27peace building
21:28i find it kind of hysterical that i roll
21:30up always in black
21:32and so i look like the sort of strange
21:35person in the corner of
21:36you know i don't belong in this party do
21:38you think people are expecting a floaty
21:40caftan
21:41yeah i just said i don't even like
21:43lentils i don't know what to do
21:46not even a whiffer picture i know it's
21:48stereotypical yeah but but
21:50but interestingly you know what i did
21:52find was that
21:53for me peace wasn't about the soft
21:56voices
21:57and the hugs and and the beautiful
22:00sharing
22:01to for me peace actually
22:04was pretty hard it's like it for us to
22:06make a commitment
22:08to say um imagine if
22:12we we went to peace with an
22:16idea of it being a verb as something we
22:19did
22:20that's actually really challenging it's
22:22hard to be the person to say okay i'm
22:25not going to
22:26ignite an argument i will i will agree
22:29to disagree
22:30i will respect you as a fellow human
22:33being
22:34let's break some bread together even
22:36though i find your
22:38your ideas very distasteful that's that
22:41that takes an immense amount of
22:44confidence
22:46and posturing that um
22:49um i i think we we need to be teaching
22:52right from the word go our children of
22:55how to do
22:56how to do peace because it's not easy no
22:59you'd never get anywhere in the internet
23:00comments with an
23:01attitude like that would you no i'm
23:03really bad in chat rooms yeah
23:07and of course a lot of people would
23:08assume because of what happened to you
23:10that your focus is purely on islamic
23:13terrorism but that's not the case talk
23:15us through
23:18what do you think about when you think
23:19about violence i didn't know what had
23:21happened um i was
23:23i i was told when i was in hospital
23:26um that this was a suicide bombing
23:29mission that there were
23:30four bombs across london that morning um
23:33i i was just absolutely dismayed
23:36you know how how could this be possible
23:40and how with eight million people
23:43commuting in london
23:44how could i possibly be one of those
23:47people
23:48and it was the only day i was running
23:50late so it was the only day
23:52that i wasn't in my office at 7 30.
23:55and i and i sort of after the after the
23:57weeks passed
23:58i then it took me a long time to be able
24:01to speak
24:02again i've lost a lot of my lung
24:04capacity my hearing
24:06my speech and so all of this had to be a
24:10learnt um
24:13action and i asked i want to know more
24:16about this person
24:18that did this and
24:21one of the questions that the police in
24:23fact asked was you know they're trying
24:24to gain witness statements and did you
24:26see this person
24:28and i said the sad thing is commuting in
24:31london
24:32we are trained there is an absolute
24:35unwritten rule where you do not look at
24:38anyone you don't talk to anyone
24:41people have got books like this
24:44you can't read a book and and yet you're
24:47that close to the person next to you
24:49and i felt immediately
24:52the failings of being
24:55a human being because there was
24:58apparently one person between me
25:02and the suicide bomber and that person
25:05ultimately shielded my body
25:08and yet i couldn't tell you what he
25:10looked like and i so wish
25:12that i'd looked up and said good morning
25:15or something
25:15acknowledged his presence i now have the
25:19incredible grace of knowing
25:20his family his wife his children
25:24so i now feel i know him um
25:28but but i wish i'd looked at his face
25:30and
25:31so to me that there was already this
25:33these sort of
25:34nuggets of of insight
25:38of how we're conditioned
25:41as human beings and who we really are
25:45as human beings and i felt that they
25:47they're already
25:48out of step with each other so there
25:50were these these moments for me of
25:52already starting to recalibrate into an
25:55idea of
25:55i need to understand more about why this
25:59happened
26:00and i remember looking at the picture of
26:01this guy
26:04he was 19 at the time and i was
26:06expecting to see this monster
26:09and i looked at his face and thought
26:10you're you're just like
26:16you don't look you don't look like a
26:17monster you just look like someone that
26:20we would pass in the street
26:22it's a danger isn't there guys there's a
26:24dangerous there in assuming someone's a
26:25monster because we other than
26:27we're making no attempt to understand
26:28what goes on and then we're ignoring
26:31yeah and it was that moment that i
26:33because he's dead
26:34i can't go to him i can't have an
26:36exchange
26:37i can't ask why so therefore i i felt
26:40that
26:40i've got to somehow put the pieces
26:43together
26:44and i need to understand his motivation
26:48and then i need to grow that out what
26:50are the motivations
26:52of an ideology of a set of ideas
26:56that can be so lethal that they would
26:59lead to this and they lead to to
27:03taking another's life and that became
27:05the quest
27:06right from that moment in hospital do
27:09you believe in evil
27:10no no i i believe
27:14that um that
27:17and particularly because i've spent so
27:19much time in this space
27:22i believe that people particularly
27:24within extremism
27:27people don't see the criminality in
27:29those actions
27:30that are doing them they believe that
27:33what they are doing
27:34is fighting a cause or that they are
27:38righteous especially if it's a
27:39religiously infused idea
27:42that they have god on their side and
27:44it's a righteous cause
27:46that is why it's so difficult to
27:48dismantle
27:49that set of ideas um any time we get a
27:52collective of ideas
27:55that go against the grain of humanity
27:58we are setting up for a very very
28:01dangerous
28:02set of circumstances i guess then what
28:06has happened recently i'm just going to
28:07pull out this thing that you sent me
28:08earlier which was serendipitously a
28:12story that came out today
28:13which is that australia is about to list
28:16its very first right-wing terrorist
28:18organization so i think we've got
28:2033 banned organizations and they're
28:23pretty much all
28:24islamic and they've been increasing
28:26questions about why right-wing
28:27extremists
28:28haven't been listed particularly when
28:29you hear stories about new swastikas in
28:32the streets of regional victoria
28:34towns and people saying what happened in
28:36america and getting concerned about it
28:37here
28:39was there a point where you swung and
28:42went this has got to be part of the same
28:45fight that i'm fighting trying to
28:48understand islamic terrorists
28:49i know i think it was it was always
28:52right on the agenda for me um because as
28:56i started to
28:57get further and further into this world
29:00of extremism
29:01i then started to meet former terrorists
29:05and some of those former terrorists were
29:09ira or were alt-right or
29:12you know former skinheads or so so the
29:15former terrorist group
29:17then started to inform my knowledge
29:20of you know the the similarities
29:24of how people get led into
29:27the the concocting of very lethal ideas
29:30and therefore ideologies and indeed
29:34how they come out of it and we started
29:37to see all of these similarities
29:38and it was it was just like like
29:42solving a design puzzle of if
29:45if we can see how people go in and how
29:48we can get them out
29:49then why isn't it far more simple for us
29:52to be safeguarding
29:53in the first place how do we build a
29:56confident society
29:58where we don't feel fear of the other
30:02and where we lessen all of the all of
30:04the excuses
30:06of what starts to um lead people into
30:09these extreme positions in the first
30:11place
30:12and now you you put me on two and i'm
30:15having an absolute mental blank on his
30:16name but the skin head
30:18the what the skin head yes what was his
30:21name again matt
30:22matt and it was this extraordinary story
30:25one of the main things i remember him
30:26saying is
30:27that when he was um just starting to get
30:30you know interested in sort of the
30:32neo-nazi world
30:33you'd have to write off for a magazine
30:36once a month
30:37to then read up on it and of course now
30:41you know so it took him i think a year
30:42or two years before he even started
30:44meeting other skinheads
30:46and he said now you go on youtube that's
30:48everywhere
30:49and it happens in a day and i think it's
30:51pretty it's very easy for us to dismiss
30:54all the little subtle nuances of things
30:56and then even the bigger glaring things
30:58it's very easy
30:59for us to say oh well that's just a gang
31:01culture or that's a phase or
31:03yeah and particularly even with with you
31:06know
31:07with cloaked religious extremism to the
31:10outside world that looks like someone
31:12who's suddenly
31:12found god and is a completely pious you
31:16know
31:16um so it it it's difficult for family
31:19and friends
31:21to find those little moments where they
31:23can sort of interrupt
31:25the pattern um but but it's it's how we
31:28need to be far better
31:30cued on cued was that a
31:33was that a queue that was a q and on
31:36joke we'll come back to q anon
31:39sorry
31:43don't listen to q anyway if you had
31:48you know omnipotent omniscient powers
31:51what would you start to change to fight
31:53against
31:54extreme you know if you could control
31:56these silicon valley companies if you
31:58could
32:00get into people's brains and feel around
32:02with how they process information
32:03what is there a couple big things
32:07yeah there are two there's two things um
32:09and i don't want to sound
32:11like a like a you know i'm on the
32:14spectrum of being too hippy
32:16um and i say this with absolute solid
32:20conviction that we need a lot more love
32:24um and when i've talked to the
32:27former terrorists who have come out of a
32:29situation
32:31that the one thing that changed them was
32:34a seed of doubt
32:36and that seed of doubt was planted
32:39through an action of love and so i
32:42i say it with absolute firmness that it
32:45is
32:45imperative that we have more and
32:48find ways to offer more environments
32:52that feel um embracing that feel
32:55that someone can be held and
32:59through that then we get to a place of
33:02feeling confident
33:04when you're when you're loved and and
33:06feeling like i'm understood
33:08even if my ideas are different then i
33:10can feel confident
33:12in expressing that and i don't need to
33:14look for
33:15a silo just to to be validated back
33:19i can be validated by my community and
33:22have
33:23you know pink hair and that says that's
33:25that's fine you've got pink hair we love
33:27you
33:27and that's okay um and it's it's how we
33:30get to that
33:31you know i'm i'm equally fascinated in
33:35you know in the human species of our
33:38evolution and and how do we evolve into
33:42this
33:42higher idea of being where
33:46we don't have to kill each other to
33:47prove a point um
33:50you know that's that's the big that's
33:52the big question
33:53there's something that really bothered
33:55me with the the well there's many things
33:57that bothered me with the
33:58july 7 terrorists but the one thing that
34:02was a great failing
34:03uh that i felt was that on their suicide
34:07video
34:08they explicitly said you know you're not
34:11listening to us
34:12so we're going to make you listen
34:15through
34:16blood and this is a direct
34:19you know action because of the invasion
34:22of iraq
34:23and when i've talked to others who are
34:27holding extreme beliefs this is a point
34:29i often bring up because i said
34:31well that doesn't correlate with me
34:34because what we saw in the lead-up to
34:36the iraq war was
34:38unprecedented numbers of the general
34:41public
34:42coming out who have never protested
34:45before
34:46so there were elderly grandmas there
34:48were you know children
34:49everyone was out particularly in london
34:52and that so
34:53so they had the support of the general
34:56public so it never made sense to me
34:58of well why attack the very people and
35:01if this
35:02is a righteous cause surely you want the
35:05public with you
35:06so so that was a great failing in the
35:09argument for me
35:10and one that i often use as my
35:13little seed of doubt the other thing for
35:15me is
35:17the power of not holding
35:20hatred and bitterness um
35:23i i park the idea of forgiveness i don't
35:27forgive the action at all um if this
35:30person was still alive today i
35:32think i would be giving him a little
35:34swift kick with the prosthetic
35:36and then we'd speak peacefully um just
35:38one kick just
35:39a little just a little bit it's pretty
35:41forgiving to me to say this isn't okay
35:43um because the the you know this is
35:46ongoing for me and i think that that's
35:48the other
35:49sort of real testament to
35:53to not harboring hatred and bitterness
35:56because the pain and discomfort
36:00continues so it's not something you say
36:02great
36:03here's some prosthetics off you go it's
36:05a continuing injury
36:07and a continuing reminder of
36:11of what happens when people
36:15latch onto a set of ideas that are
36:17incredibly destructive
36:19um so for me i was
36:22and my body was throughout my rescue
36:25period
36:27completely loved and that's why i
36:31feel that i can sit here and be a
36:34testament
36:34to how powerful that is because even one
36:38young police officer that i've met all
36:41of my rescuers
36:42and one of them said to me you know i
36:45was trying to give you some of my life
36:48through my hand into yours and i said to
36:52him i felt that
36:53i could feel that now i want to place
36:56that
36:57in context with my body
37:00was horrifically burnt terribly injured
37:04i was given a name tag when i was
37:08when i was arrived at hospital of being
37:10one
37:11unknown estimated female
37:14so those four words alone
37:18tell us the picture of how dire i
37:21situation i was in so for me to have
37:24felt
37:25incredible love and care from every
37:28single person
37:30that had my body that's extraordinary
37:34absolutely extraordinary um and and then
37:37i
37:37i was told at the end of it that um i
37:39was in fact
37:40dead for 30 minutes so an incredibly
37:43long time to not be present
37:46or to not be here and how
37:49there was still this sense of we don't
37:52want to give up we will not give up
37:54so they kept resuscitating for three
37:57minutes 30 seconds
37:59for which we are all very great of which
38:01i'm here yeah and you particularly i
38:03imagine
38:04well i hope i'm here i keep i keep
38:06checking for a pulse
38:07um but but i i just can't i can't stress
38:10enough
38:11how that i believe that
38:14immense love not
38:18only saved my life that day but it
38:20really has saved me
38:22from going into the depths of
38:25of wanting retribution revenge
38:29feeling bitter feeling hatred you know
38:32for feeling open enough to say
38:36okay i want to be part of the of
38:39the betterment of a life continuing
38:43and not the destruction i want to know
38:46how i can be part of the design
38:50of a process where this doesn't happen
38:52again
38:54how does how do i do that and so i
38:56immediately went to
38:57the town in the north of england where
39:00three of the four bombers
39:02came from and this was a small town
39:05called beeston
39:06that was completely devastated you know
39:09to think
39:09this tiny little town in leeds and the
39:12world's media had descended upon it
39:15and there's all these families to say
39:16well we had no idea
39:19we can't believe this is our boys that
39:21have done this
39:22and then for me to be there you know a
39:25year later
39:27sitting with them and saying what do we
39:29do together
39:30how do we do this together and you know
39:34there were lots of ideas that were sort
39:35of floated put on the table
39:38and as a joke i said to all of these
39:40community leaders i said well maybe
39:43if i walked from leeds down to london
39:46you know that'd be that'd be a statement
39:49and i thought they'd all be laughing at
39:51me and they went that's a brilliant idea
39:55i didn't even own a tracksuit you know
39:56so i wish i'd just shaved my hair
40:00so so it was a month on the road um and
40:04we we walked through towns and my
40:07message was very clear i just said look
40:09if i'm prepared don't please don't
40:11put any money in this this is not to
40:12raise money this is to get people to
40:15come together
40:16and to walk and to talk and if we can do
40:19that
40:20then hopefully we can address the issues
40:22that that are separating us
40:24and find the way of of having those
40:27epiphany moments
40:29to say that's right what we have in
40:32common
40:32is always far greater than what can
40:35divide us
40:37you know we've just got to keep finding
40:38the way we do and
40:41just to go back to when you said you're
40:43the bomber on your bus
40:44you looked at him he's not a monster the
40:46sad truth is there are a lot of people
40:48who would look at anyone
40:49islamic and see if not a monster at
40:51least something
40:52someone very different from themselves
40:54so to flip that around then
40:56what happens when a terrorist
41:01possibly wearing viking horns with a
41:03painted chest
41:04or just a baseball cap what happens when
41:07terrorists look
41:08just like us that's it that this is this
41:11is our problem
41:12with society because and then it's also
41:16a terrorist will not see themselves as a
41:18criminal
41:19so therefore there isn't the the hiding
41:22and the guilt and the feeling well i i
41:25feel remorseful for my actions
41:27a terrorist feels completely convicted
41:31or courage of their conviction um that
41:33they are fighting some sort of cause
41:37and this cause in particular obviously
41:39was um
41:40and by the way i think the head of the
41:41fbi has declared that
41:43they were terrorist acts in the capital
41:44in in january
41:47and i felt unsurprised to see it because
41:51i spent
41:51way too much time watching those
41:54facebook groups but i think a lot of
41:56people would have been
41:57kind of surprised that all this kooky
41:59conspiracy theory stuff about
42:02q anon and about the election being
42:04stolen actually translated into action
42:06were you
42:07were you surprised or what not at all no
42:09no so
42:10so watching it very carefully um again
42:13this is where we have to it's like how
42:16do we become
42:18the safeguards of of this
42:21growing snowball that is ideas
42:25that upon ideas upon ideas that suddenly
42:27form
42:28you know the dna strands of an ideology
42:32and it happens just like that so it's
42:35therefore you know that i coming back to
42:38the idea of peace
42:40you know it's it's how do we how do we
42:42become the people at the dinner party
42:45or the people in the social event to say
42:48actually can i just stop you there with
42:50what you're talking about because
42:52that's factually incorrect that
42:55that takes courage that takes confidence
42:59and that also takes you know a sense
43:02where i
43:03i know my facts so how do we even know
43:05our facts
43:07you know how because because because
43:10extremism is very persuasive
43:12um i've i've often used an example when
43:15i'm talking
43:15it you know in a public realm of of it
43:18it is as
43:19easy as using susceptible language to
43:22susceptible ears
43:24and i might say something like in this
43:26room um
43:27did you hear all the blondes in the room
43:29did you hear what's happening in
43:31victoria
43:32they're killing blonde people
43:35and oh you might think it was a car
43:37accident or you might think it was this
43:38or that
43:39no no it's a cover-up they're actually
43:41trying to get rid of blondes
43:42in victoria not a real one by the way
43:44thank god yeah but it's only it's only a
43:46matter of time
43:47before this will happen in south
43:48australia so blonde blonde people
43:51what are you doing about it you know
43:53we've got to we've got to
43:54fight this and you know suddenly if you
43:57if you have that
43:59that lens of fear suddenly
44:02everything you look at becomes then is
44:04this water
44:05or is this some sort of poison because
44:11so the lens of fear is actually very
44:13powerful
44:14and and it's how do we how do we help
44:18alleviate fear in a society
44:21again it comes for me through the ideas
44:24of how do we grow confidence
44:25we go we grow confidence through
44:29having facts you know we live in a very
44:31opinionated
44:33society and it's very hard to find the
44:35facts
44:37it is what about the politicians can we
44:40have a go at them
44:40i mean it's an interesting thing too
44:43easy
44:46it's an interesting time because we've
44:48got the vaccine roll out we've heard a
44:50lot about
44:51the importance of you know stopping the
44:53spread of misinformation at this
44:55particular time and yet isn't it true
44:56that half the time politicians are
44:58giving a nod a wink to misinformation or
45:00in the case obviously of craig kelly and
45:02people like that going going the full
45:04boar
45:06look look i don't know i think i think
45:07when we look at a political message
45:10to me it's always comes back to chicken
45:12and egg you know
45:13is it is it because it's it's easy
45:16to have a public in a in a sense of fear
45:20because we want them to do this or is it
45:21easy to have a public informed
45:23with this because we want them to do
45:24that it's about you know
45:26maneuvering a whole nation um
45:30and i think it's it's yeah chicken and
45:33egg
45:34do we are we a reflection of what we
45:36want or are they
45:38a reflection of what they would like us
45:40to do
45:41there's a lot of leadership in there
45:42though
45:44again you know you're talking to to
45:46spiritual me and i think
45:48i think leadership is about how you know
45:51how we govern ourselves and
45:54our responsibility for for what we do in
45:57life what we say
45:58um who are we at that dinner party table
46:01um and how do we arm ourselves
46:05with with information where do we get
46:07our sources of information
46:09and that's diminishing that's actually
46:11hard yeah i was i was shocked
46:13um to have the the understanding of
46:17how many people did rely on facebook for
46:20their news
46:21and and i had to sort of take just a
46:25moment to say
46:27that's that's really interesting
46:29information for me and i need to
46:30understand that
46:32to be able to understand how better
46:35to help society gain
46:38information that's correct and not just
46:41opinionated you know hearsay i think it
46:44was 40
46:46something like that which i was i was
46:48astounded by that
46:49and what about young people young people
46:53yes and misinformation how do you make
46:55them resilient
46:56so my daughter is eight so this age
46:58group is fantastic because
47:00actually young people want to protect
47:03the world
47:04they love their environment they love
47:06each other um
47:07they're completely you know you know in
47:10the surrounds of
47:11of justice and doing the right thing so
47:14i think it it you know it changes when
47:17we want to feel acceptance
47:19and i think that starts you know as we
47:21get into
47:22our teenage years of i want to feel like
47:25i belong
47:26so if i don't belong to you then who do
47:29i belong to
47:30and and someone will come along and fill
47:32that gap
47:34so it you know it's just like the fear
47:35narrative if if
47:37if the fear narrative is not shut down
47:39with a fact
47:40with a growing sense of confidence
47:42someone will come along and
47:44fill that gap um there's always people
47:47that are looking for that opportunity
47:48and
47:49you know that's what we need as a
47:51society to be the embraces of
47:54how organized are the people who are
47:55looking for those susceptible people
47:57very very organized this is business
47:59yeah extremism isis is a business yeah
48:02it's
48:03it's a it's a fantastically run
48:05organized crime
48:07business that makes a lot of money so it
48:10matters to them
48:11absolutely if the press isn't talking
48:14about
48:14you know terrorism or us and them that's
48:17that's their marketing
48:19i've seen some of their marketing and it
48:21is schmick yeah
48:22some of those magazines they put out
48:24showing isis soldiers building hospitals
48:27to have
48:27a a color a four color magazine that was
48:31that was published monthly and it would
48:33have you know the
48:35the first couple story was you know
48:36jihadists of the month
48:38and it looked to us it was a page three
48:42to us it just it's like it is insanity
48:46it's ridiculous
48:47but you know it was again positioning
48:50them
48:51as the righteous players in a cause
48:54and it's it's it's easily done
48:58and are the right wing is that organized
49:00absolutely and getting more
49:02organized they're learning from each
49:03other so extremism as a business model
49:06yeah it absolutely picks up the tips
49:08from each other and learns from each
49:10other
49:10that's a really scary thought um we
49:14haven't done a live thing in a while so
49:15i kind of forgot about this bit
49:17but um anyone got any questions
49:21we have to be a little bit careful
49:23because we can't necessarily
49:25crawl over people to hand a microphone
49:28um i am perfectly happy to just keep on
49:31talking to jill but
49:32if anyone's got something bursting
49:34inside of them they want to ask do you
49:36want to stick your hand up
49:41no microphone this is great thank you
49:47took my feet yes yeah
49:50yes thank you for that so again
49:54it's it's it's being in a position where
49:57you can adapt your thinking
49:59and not come from a sense of loss and
50:03upset
50:04and and and feeling
50:07um morose and sad about what's happened
50:11i feel very much that i need to be
50:13honoring
50:14the fact that i'm here and for me
50:17honoring
50:17a sense of life is about doing as much
50:20as i possibly can
50:22with the life i have so
50:25i realized that i wasn't in any time
50:27soon going to climb
50:29mount everest or do the kokoda trail
50:32um i've been to i've been to mexico
50:35all over the world so the shell feet
50:38that i have which are the two plastic
50:39shelves
50:40that look a bit like feet i paint their
50:42toenails
50:44um they go over the titanium um
50:47footrests i've given them to travelers
50:51and said i don't that the condition is
50:54i don't have them back they only come
50:56back to me
50:57on the july 7th anniversary every year
51:01but apart from that they have their own
51:03freedom and they've been
51:05all over the world and they were on that
51:07last picture i got of them
51:09they were in mexico on a train and
51:11there's the train driver with my two
51:13feet sort of smiling and i just thought
51:16they're having a ball
51:17you know so and the other sort of
51:19imposter thing i felt
51:20terrible about but kind of not because
51:22it's in a frame on my wall
51:24is i've got a thing saying you know
51:26congratulations jill hicks you've
51:28climbed
51:29you know mount everest and
51:30congratulations jill hicks you've just
51:32completed the kokoda trail and i thought
51:34well i haven't really but you know um
51:37the the
51:38the plastic feet have but it's it's just
51:40gorgeous um
51:41so it's going to be a book um
51:44yeah so it's like a coffee table that's
51:46so great
51:47yeah it's going to become a book yeah
51:50yeah
51:50like have feet we'll travel yeah and
51:54if they had a quiet year they have had a
51:57quiet year so i haven't got them back
51:59so they are they are still um in the
52:01americas
52:03yeah hopefully they're okay with covert
52:06oh i hope so yeah yeah um has anyone
52:09else got any questions
52:12are you being shy up the back there can
52:14you do you mind lifting your voice so we
52:16can hear you
52:29the destructive ideologies and seek
52:31divisive outcomes
52:33within our global societies
52:37do you feel that the last events
52:40in america since november's a
52:42presidential election
52:43have put your cause back a long way
52:48absolutely absolutely
52:51i for this last year i've had to step
52:53away
52:54so this has been the first year in 13
52:57years that i have not
52:58done as much as i would normally do
53:00within
53:01the field of countering destructive
53:04narratives
53:05i went back to painting i went back to
53:08creating music
53:10i tried to soothe myself by saying
53:13this is okay because it's still a
53:15language and it's still a way of
53:17communicating to people i paint very
53:20much
53:21around the idea of humanity
53:25but but it got to me because i could
53:28it's like seeing the world
53:30self-destruct all around you um i
53:33i've been privileged to even patch into
53:36a school in damascus
53:38and i remember having to catch myself
53:40because in this one classroom in
53:42damascus
53:43they had pro assad
53:47pro rebels and then pro
53:50isis and all of these kids would be at
53:53each other's
53:54throats and then have to sit down and do
53:56a lesson
53:58and you know having that conversation
54:01and then getting off the computer and
54:04being in
54:04you know beautiful south australia i i
54:08really had to feel like what what is
54:11reality
54:11you know how is this really happening in
54:13the world in real time
54:15and then seeing what was played out in
54:17america it's it's
54:19it's soul destroying because again
54:21coming back
54:22for me the frustration i feel
54:26is that i've had the experience of i
54:28know who we really
54:29are yeah my life was
54:32was changed and altered horrifically by
54:35one person
54:36but my life was saved by many
54:39and to to to have gone from this idea of
54:42being
54:42an unknown where it absolutely did not
54:46matter
54:47what color of my skin was you know
54:50whether i was male or female
54:52what i believed if i had money yet none
54:55of that mattered
54:56that still is the core of my being
55:00so any time i see that you know not
55:02played out
55:03to what i know we are it it hurts it
55:07really hurts
55:08and because i'm a mother i'm responsible
55:10for
55:11for developing the next generation
55:17how worried are you about the spread of
55:19those ideas here do you think there's
55:20anything
55:21about australia that is more resistant
55:23to that kind of
55:24well as we've seen in victoria someone
55:26in a supermarket with
55:28you know a small sticker on their shirt
55:29it's just and it's not funny
55:32you know it's not okay it's not it's
55:35it's it's the beginnings of of a very
55:38very destructive
55:39um set of rules that we don't need we
55:42just don't need
55:43and and and um i think we need to be
55:47very aware
55:48of how easily that corrosive
55:51drip can happen um within our societies
55:55i think we're protected a little bit by
55:57i heard someone argue this the other day
55:58protected a bit by compulsory voting so
56:01our politicians don't have to
56:04go full trumpian to appeal to their base
56:06because
56:07everyone's perhaps perhaps i don't know
56:10i
56:11i think it's something within australia
56:13we don't have to think about very much
56:15and and and and yet you talk to anyone
56:18who
56:18um you know racism is very much alive
56:21and well
56:22or i will call it otherness you know i
56:25think we we
56:26we find it very easy to other someone
56:29who doesn't necessarily
56:30you know look like us or acts like us
56:33and
56:34um i'm hoping that this next generation
56:37we can
56:38we can really do something about that
56:40and and see each other as human beings
56:42first
56:43we've got so much to contribute i think
56:45i think it's that for me
56:46of again coming from a place of
56:49confidence
56:50it's sitting at the table and saying oh
56:52brilliant and
56:54what can you contribute that's something
56:56i don't know about
56:57wow you know i don't fear you i'm
57:00excited
57:01by your difference you know because
57:03you're going to add
57:04to my knowledge you're going to add to
57:06my my wisdom bank
57:08wow and that that's the position of
57:11confidence and not fear
57:14all right any more questions yeah up
57:16there and if you don't mind sorry
57:18just projecting a little just not
57:20projecting on to anyone
57:23demographic societies responsible
57:27for the actions of their government
57:30such as invasion of iraq
57:36so democratic governments we elect them
57:39so are
57:40we as people responsible for their
57:41actions such as the invasion of iraq
57:43well i think what we saw with
57:45the uh incredible outpouring of
57:48um the general public protesting against
57:51iraq
57:52i'd say no that was that was a
57:55very very very uh visible
57:58uh outcry from people say this doesn't
58:01this doesn't feel right for us
58:03it's an interesting facet of democracy
58:05isn't it though that we have to elect
58:07we vote for someone hold us bolas
58:08because we like this this and this
58:11and you sometimes get a bit of a trojan
58:12horse in there that you're unhappy with
58:14and all you can do is punish them
58:16the next time the next time yep
58:20oh yeah i think
58:23one of the kind of cornerstones of the
58:26way that australia and america
58:27have defined that democracy has been
58:30around the idea of free speech
58:32and that that was you know became of
58:36value at a time in which the way that we
58:37transmitted information was very
58:39different
58:40and given what we've spoken to tonight
58:43about
58:44ideologies and extremism beginning as
58:46the transfer of
58:47ideas i think that
58:53every time we speak about you know
58:56stamping out
58:56racism that people say but what about
58:59free speech shall we talk about
59:00stopping the transmission of harmful
59:02ideas and people say
59:04but then that's censorship which is
59:06against our values absolutely
59:11i can translate that into a question
59:13free speech gets pulled out to excuse
59:16absolutely everything yeah what do you
59:20think the limits are on facebook so i
59:21think i think there's a couple of things
59:22i was doing a whole piece of work around
59:25you can't bomb an idea so this
59:29this whole sort of plan of action of
59:32we'll go in and we'll bomb that and
59:34we'll bomb
59:35you know that out of existence
59:38doesn't happen you know an idea is is
59:41more powerful than anything because it
59:44lives it transfers
59:46so you can't eradicate it you've got to
59:48have
59:49you know for lack of better better words
59:52you've got to have a greater idea
59:53you've got to have something that can
59:55stand up against that
59:56and say but have you thought of this and
1:00:00to me that's that's what we are lacking
1:00:03in the in focusing and concentrating on
1:00:06building
1:00:07this what is the greater set of ideas to
1:00:10act as not only a deterrent
1:00:12but to act as a greater attractor than
1:00:15this set of ideas
1:00:16because you can't bomb that out of
1:00:18existence um
1:00:19in terms of free speech i think i think
1:00:22for lack of we don't have the time but i
1:00:24think this is a very good topic
1:00:27because free speech to me isn't free
1:00:30we've had to fight for that and it's
1:00:32precious
1:00:34and and and it's it deserves
1:00:38to be held with as much reverence as we
1:00:41can give it so
1:00:42any time it's diluted with someone
1:00:45spewing hate and saying well it's my
1:00:48right
1:00:48to say that that to me dilutes this
1:00:51incredible privilege that we have
1:00:56within our society to be free so i feel
1:00:59very protective
1:01:00about um the real notion of free speech
1:01:05and freedom of speech and freedom of
1:01:07expression
1:01:08um to me that doesn't mean a free
1:01:11license
1:01:12to spew hate um because you know
1:01:16i think we're better than that so i
1:01:18would like to say i think we're better
1:01:20than that
1:01:21and and and from a place of betterment
1:01:24we are
1:01:24absolutely then able to have free ideas
1:01:27and
1:01:28i'm able to then try and i could
1:01:29persuade you to say
1:01:31everyone with pink hair is going to rule
1:01:33the world and you can all shoot me down
1:01:35and just say well actually joel that's
1:01:37rubbish you know
1:01:38um but what what a great exchange and
1:01:41what a great way
1:01:42to use our human you know our brilliance
1:01:45of humanity
1:01:46to be able to challenge each other's
1:01:48ideas intellectually
1:01:51and walk out saying wow that was
1:01:53fantastic
1:01:54that rigor of mind wow
1:01:57um rather than saying i'm right you're
1:01:59wrong
1:02:00and um you know yeah we get nowhere
1:02:03so yes freedom of real freedom of speech
1:02:07is
1:02:08it really means something for us to you
1:02:10know to hold dear
1:02:13well jill i think people are going to
1:02:14walk out of here saying wow that was
1:02:16fantastic all right we're only going to
1:02:17have time for one more will you go for
1:02:19it as a free nation
1:02:22nation how do we control these other
1:02:25countries
1:02:30people understand four corners
1:02:39okay so um he's asking how do we as a
1:02:42free and democratic
1:02:43nation control or deal with i guess
1:02:46other countries that are more
1:02:47authoritarian and want to take over the
1:02:49world
1:02:50he declined to name it
1:02:54i'm just going to editorialize and put
1:02:56in brackets there
1:02:57china russia and north korea
1:03:00if it ever decides to lose the hermitude
1:03:02but that was me not him
1:03:05what do we do about we can't no
1:03:08we can't but what we can do is what we
1:03:11do really well
1:03:12and be better at what we do and it's a
1:03:15bit like the playground isn't it where
1:03:17you know you you you naturally gravitate
1:03:20towards people that are going to
1:03:21play nicely by your rules and share and
1:03:24do all those things so
1:03:25it's it's how do we build up a planet
1:03:28that
1:03:29share a set of ideas that work with us
1:03:32and how do we then you know say to those
1:03:35those who don't have the same set of
1:03:37ideas or the same set of ethics or
1:03:39whatever it is
1:03:40that you know how do we all operate
1:03:42because we're all here on this
1:03:44one earth but i don't think we can
1:03:46control it
1:03:49good answer and diplomatic that's true
1:03:52yeah jill that's us done do you want to
1:03:55do
1:03:56another quick hard pitch for your so so
1:03:59sadly
1:04:00well not sadly brilliantly this the
1:04:02shows have sold out
1:04:03can't we look on can we watch it online
1:04:05this my friends
1:04:07works a treat
1:04:08[Laughter]
1:04:10high demand um so so there are two
1:04:14opportunities to watch
1:04:15the show um live streamed and
1:04:19um so you can go through the channels at
1:04:23fringe and fringe ticks and there's a
1:04:25option to watch from home
1:04:27and it's um live stream for the 9th of
1:04:30march and the 14th of march
1:04:32congratulations yeah thank you so much
1:04:35everyone if we can thank you
1:04:37thank you thank you
1:05:14you

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