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Getting Along with Difficult Coworkers (Live in Boston) | Women at Work | Podcast — Transcript

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0:00AMY BERNSTEIN: You're listening to Women at Work
0:02from Harvard Business Review.
0:03I'm Amy Bernstein.
0:04And I am sitting on a stage at Harvard Business
0:07School with Amy Gallo.
0:10AMY GALLO: Hi.
0:11AMY BERNSTEIN: We're here to celebrate her new book called
0:13Getting Along, How to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People.
0:18AMY GALLO: I so appreciate you leading the celebration, Amy B.
0:21AMY BERNSTEIN: I am so happy to be doing this today with you.
0:24We're going to have an audience who should start
0:26arriving in a few minutes.
0:28AMY GALLO: And we're going to go walk around
0:30and chat with some of them.
0:31And then we'll start the show.
0:32AMY BERNSTEIN: Am, are you ready to tell us
0:34about different types of difficult people?
0:35AMY GALLO: Sure am.
0:36AMY BERNSTEIN: And why they act the way they do?
0:38AMY GALLO: Yep.
0:38AMY BERNSTEIN: And how we can nudge them
0:39into being more civil and collaborative?
0:41AMY GALLO: Totally.
0:42AMY BERNSTEIN: And give on the spot advice
0:44to audience members?
0:45AMY GALLO: I'm going to do my best.
0:46AMY BERNSTEIN: All right then, let's go mingle.
0:48AMY GALLO: We'll be right back.
0:53[APPLAUSE]
0:54AMY BERNSTEIN: Thank you so much.
0:56It's such a pleasure to be here tonight with you guys.
1:00We had the opportunity to talk to some of you.
1:03And I was very interested in, what you want to talk about.
1:07One of the things I heard about, Amy, that I think maybe
1:09will touch on, is about distinguishing
1:13between big personalities and difficult personalities,
1:17and working out power dynamics.
1:19I think this is stuff you get into in your book.
1:22What did you hear when you were talking to folks?
1:24AMY GALLO: I talked to someone who works as a project manager.
1:27They told me that they deal a lot with other people's
1:31conflicts and other people who are
1:33dealing with difficult personalities, and not
1:35their own.
1:35So that's also an interesting angle we might touch on.
1:39AMY BERNSTEIN: So I want to share a story about what was--
1:44about someone who had a big personality and a very
1:46difficult personality, someone I worked
1:48with very early in my career.
1:51I joined a department where she had been
1:54the young woman in the room.
1:56And I became the slightly younger woman in the room.
2:00And I don't know if that has anything to do with it,
2:03but I bring it up for your analysis later.
2:06She never lost the opportunity to belittle my ideas
2:12and undermine me.
2:12And I don't think I'm being paranoid.
2:14Because one time I heard that our boss was
2:19looking for me and my nemesis--
2:28AMY GALLO: No names here.
2:29AMY BERNSTEIN: No names, but we'll just call her my nemesis,
2:34actually said to our boss, oh, you're looking for Amy.
2:38She's probably out shopping.
2:42I was out on an assignment.
2:45So, what in the world was going on there?
2:49AMY GALLO: Well, what did you do?
2:51AMY BERNSTEIN: OK.
2:52I'm not proud to tell you that I did nothing, that this
2:55would happen repeatedly.
2:56In meetings when she would belittle an idea
2:59I'd turn the color of our chairs, crimson.
3:02I may have gone home and shed a tear or two in frustration.
3:05I ground my teeth a lot.
3:07But I did not stand up for myself.
3:11I didn't advocate for myself.
3:12AMY GALLO: Yeah, and that's--
3:13I mean, I'm sure everyone hears that story
3:15and it's like, oh, yeah.
3:16I've done that, right?
3:17Just the, let's just grin and bear it.
3:20Let's take the abuse, because what can I actually do?
3:23Right?
3:24AMY BERNSTEIN: Well what could I have done?
3:26AMY GALLO: Well, OK, so she sounds
3:28like she fits a couple of the archetypes in my book.
3:30Number one, the political operator, someone who is dead
3:34set on advancing their career, even at the detriment of yours.
3:38She also sounds a little bit like the tormentor,
3:40which I think we're going to talk about a little bit later.
3:43AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh heck yeah.
3:44AMY GALLO: Yeah.
3:45So, I think there's lots of things you could have done.
3:48But I also understand the reaction of, I can't-- what am
3:53I supposed to do in this situation?
3:55I have so little power.
3:57And that's the situation so many of us find ourselves in.
4:01I probably would have tried maybe
4:04to call her out a little bit on the behavior.
4:06But--
4:07AMY BERNSTEIN: She was scary.
4:08AMY GALLO: She sounds really scary.
4:10AMY BERNSTEIN: She was awful.
4:10AMY GALLO: Yeah.
4:11Yeah.
4:12Well, oftentimes these big personalities
4:15or these archetypes have a lot of control over us.
4:17Either they're our bosses.
4:19They're someone who wield a lot of power in the organization.
4:22So, it can be really scary to call them out.
4:26Oftentimes, turning someone like that from an enemy into an ally
4:31is not really possible.
4:33Sometimes you do actually just have
4:35to learn to set boundaries so that they
4:38don't continue to hurt your career
4:40and damage your reputation.
4:42AMY BERNSTEIN: So how would I have set a boundary with her?
4:45AMY GALLO: Well, I think with her one
4:46of my favorite boundaries to set is a mental one.
4:49It's not very nice.
4:50But is to tell myself, that person
4:53has to wake up as their miserable selves every day.
4:56And I get to wake up as me.
4:58And something about the disengaging from,
5:01I need to change you, or I wish you were different,
5:05loosens a little bit of the friction that often happens.
5:08I also think that in that case, you
5:11might have also found a way to wield a little bit more power.
5:15And I'm guessing actually that's what you ended up doing, which
5:19is by being very good at your job,
5:21gaining the respect of others in the organization,
5:23filling a hole that needs to be filled for example, right?
5:27That way you start to gain some authority and power
5:30and show that person, you don't have this control over me.
5:33AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, god, I wish you
5:35had been my friend back then.
5:37So one of the things I really love about your book
5:40is that you take us from the big category called
5:45difficult people, and you give us subcategories.
5:49And I found those categories so helpful.
5:53Can you take us through some of them?
5:54AMY GALLO: Yes, absolutely.
5:56And I will say, I don't believe in labeling people
5:59in dismissive ways and pigeonholing them,
6:02even the archetypes.
6:03Calling someone passive aggressive
6:05or a tormentor is not going to do anything
6:08to improve your relationship.
6:09These are categories that are really
6:11meant to help you find the specific advice you need
6:14in a productive way, to try to change the relationship,
6:18to nudge them toward more productive behavior.
6:21But I'm going to actually name the archetypes,
6:24and I'm curious just by a show of hands who actually has dealt
6:27with some of these people.
6:29All right, so let's start with the insecure manager.
6:31Who's worked for an insecure-- oh, everyone, OK.
6:36All right, who has worked with someone
6:38who's the consummate pessimist, has nothing good to say?
6:42All right, here's a flavor of the pessimist, the someone who
6:45plays the victim.
6:47Anyone worked with people who played the victim?
6:50I can see someone who seems to think
6:51their arm is getting tired.
6:54What about the passive aggressive peer?
6:58Yeah, the impetus for the book was
7:00around passive aggressive behavior.
7:02Because I got asked a lot of questions, especially when I
7:05was talking about my first book around conflict of,
7:07how do I deal with passive aggressive behavior?
7:10All right, how about the biased coworker?
7:13Someone who commits microaggressions?
7:16All right, the know it all.
7:17Anyone work with the know it all?
7:20OK, bonus question, anyone act like the know it all?
7:24Yeah, I identify with that one.
7:26All right, how about the tormentor, and in that term
7:29is someone--
7:30I love that you're like, yep, that, right away.
7:32Yes, I worked with that person.
7:34That's someone who's meant to be a mentor,
7:36but actually is set on making your life miserable.
7:39Anyone work with that person?
7:41Yeah.
7:42And then how about the political operator?
7:46Yes.
7:47All right.
7:47Wow, you guys have some great colleagues, congratulations.
7:53All right, we'll get into more specifics of those in a moment.
7:56AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, I mean when you're
7:58talking about these archetypes, I also
8:01would love to know how to recognize it in yourself.
8:04I mean, I think we all like to think we don't do any of this.
8:08But.
8:09AMY GALLO: But we all do.
8:10AMY BERNSTEIN: But we do, right?
8:11AMY GALLO: We all do.
8:12That was the fun part about writing the archetypes,
8:14because I was like, oh, yeah, I've done this.
8:15Yep.
8:16Done this.
8:16Yep, did this yesterday.
8:18And actually a friend texted me.
8:19The book came out last Tuesday, and on Wednesday she texted me
8:23and said, I'm halfway through.
8:24I realized that I'm all of these archetypes.
8:26And I'm gifting your book to my entire team
8:29so they can learn to cope with me.
8:32Which, she gets huge props for the self-awareness.
8:35And I really try to talk in the book about the times I
8:38have exhibited these behaviors.
8:40But I hope that in reading them, you
8:42recognize that we're not all our best
8:45selves every moment at work.
8:46And we do fall into these archetypes.
8:49And it's important to recognize what
8:51motivates that behavior, why we do it,
8:54and in learning the tactics to deal with someone else,
8:57you might often learn how to stem the behavior in yourself.
9:02AMY BERNSTEIN: So I'd love to go deeper on some
9:04of the most common archetypes.
9:07Maybe you could tell by a show of hands
9:09where you want to go with that.
9:10AMY GALLO: Well, I want to help this woman here
9:12who clearly is dealing with a tormentor.
9:15So I'm going to I'll talk about the tormentor first.
9:18So this is someone who believes they've made sacrifices
9:22and believes you should too.
9:23They might assign you useless work and pointless work just
9:28to make you work harder.
9:29They might question your commitment to work.
9:32They might deny that they're systemic barriers to succeeding
9:36in your organization.
9:37So, my friend here is nodding to every single one
9:41of those behaviors.
9:43I am so sorry.
9:45So those are sort of the typical behaviors we see happen.
9:49And the attitude is well, I made it here.
9:52You can do it too.
9:53And I'm going to make it just as hard for you.
9:56Now what motivates that behavior?
9:58Because there are actually very rational
10:00reasons for behaving this way.
10:02We probably want to believe that they're just an awful person.
10:06But usually, they're actually responding
10:09to something, either within themselves
10:12or within the organization.
10:14So there's a concept called social identity threat, which
10:17is when you are part of an underestimated group,
10:20let's say you're a woman, a person of color,
10:23you believe that there are fewer spots in an organization
10:26or fewer spots for success or to achieve a leadership
10:30position in your organization.
10:32And you may be right.
10:33That's often the truth.
10:34So being affiliated or associated
10:37with someone who shares that identity
10:40can be a threat to your own success.
10:43This is also connected to favoritism threat.
10:45So oftentimes, senior women, for example,
10:48who, if they're mentoring or trying
10:49to bring up a younger woman, people will
10:52accuse them of favoritism.
10:53You're only helping them because they're a woman.
10:56And so that's again a natural response
10:58is trying to distance themselves from you in a way that
11:03feels awful.
11:04But for them, actually seems as if it's
11:07protecting their career.
11:09There's also insecurity that might
11:11be feeding this archetype as well
11:14and I'm sure you want to know what to do.
11:19So one of the things is, as you can
11:21tell from the social identity threat,
11:22this is often a competitive situation
11:24that this person has set up.
11:26Only one of us can succeed, or only a few of us can succeed.
11:30So you want to try to reduce that competition
11:32and make sure that person understands
11:35that you are not actually trying to take their position.
11:39And this actually might have worked with your nemesis,
11:43to really try to align yourself with that person.
11:46Not in a, hey we're, buddy buddy,
11:48when actually you have no interest
11:50in being friends with this person, but more
11:53focusing on a shared goal.
11:55What is it we both want in this organization?
11:57AMY BERNSTEIN: So, how does that conversation go?
11:59If you're already in this charged relationship.
12:02Neither of you wants to be talking to the other.
12:04How do you make this happen?
12:06AMY GALLO: Yeah.
12:06So starting sentences with we, focusing on what do we actually
12:10both want.
12:11So for you and your nemesis, what
12:12would be something you both would
12:13have cared about at that time?
12:15Is there something?
12:17AMY BERNSTEIN: Honest to God, I have no idea what we both would
12:20have cared about rather than not being in the same room
12:23together.
12:23AMY GALLO: Fair enough.
12:24AMY BERNSTEIN: Well in the situation like that,
12:26would it have been helpful if I had proposed working together
12:29on something.
12:30AMY GALLO: Yes, unfortunately, that
12:32is one tactic that works because the last thing you
12:34want to do with a tormentor is spend more time with them.
12:37But in fact, spending more time with them
12:40aligns you better with them.
12:42They get to start seeing you as a person, as a human.
12:45They have to have some empathy for you.
12:47And there's actually really interesting research
12:49which we've published in the Harvard Business Review that
12:52shows that we actually have less empathy for people who
12:55are going through something difficult that we already
12:57went through, which is the complete opposite of what you'd
13:01expect.
13:02So if someone's brand new to the organization and struggling,
13:06and that was you one day previously,
13:09then you think you'd be kind to that person.
13:12AMY BERNSTEIN: But what's going on there?
13:13AMY GALLO: Well, the researchers propose that it's actually
13:16we forget how hard it was.
13:18So when we see someone struggling we're
13:19like, what's your problem?
13:21Like that wasn't that hard.
13:22I got through it.
13:24The other piece is that social identity threat.
13:26You see them struggling with something,
13:27being a new parent for example or going through a divorce
13:31and trying to balance work.
13:33And we don't want to be associated with that.
13:35Because that was something we worried
13:37was going to hurt our career and we want
13:39to distance ourselves from it.
13:41AMY BERNSTEIN: So my nemesis was a tormentor.
13:44But she was something else, right?
13:45AMY GALLO: Yeah, political operator.
13:47AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, so tell me about that.
13:48AMY GALLO: Yes.
13:49The political operator, and I saw
13:50a lot of hands up for the political operator.
13:52The political operator is someone
13:54who is just completely convinced that they have to do everything
13:58to further their career.
14:00And they don't care who they step on to get there.
14:03So it's their career or bust.
14:05And I do feel like--
14:07I mean to comment that you were shopping.
14:10AMY BERNSTEIN: Shopping, Yeah.
14:11AMY GALLO: Yeah, which if you know Amy B.
14:13I'm guessing you were not shopping.
14:16AMY BERNSTEIN: I'd rather saw off my arm.
14:17So yeah, I was not shopping.
14:20AMY GALLO: Yes.
14:20So this is someone who, again, will lie.
14:24They'll take credit.
14:26They'll put you down in front of others
14:28like she was doing, because they care
14:31so much about their career.
14:33And again most of us do want to get ahead.
14:36We care about success.
14:38What motivates this behavior, again,
14:40is some sense of competition.
14:42Only a few people can succeed here.
14:44In security, we like to think these people are just terrible,
14:49but oftentimes they're motivated and driven.
14:52And oftentimes they actually have skills
14:56that we wish we had, because they
14:58are navigating the complex office
15:01politics of an office or an organization.
15:04So they are actually doing things
15:06that we wish we could do.
15:08And that's one of the tactics that really I
15:10think works with them, which is to ask them for advice.
15:16So you're really good at navigating office politics.
15:19Could you give me a little bit of advice about how to do that.
15:23Now what I like about that tactic
15:25is that it puts them on notice that you
15:28see them playing the game.
15:30And chances are they're not going
15:33to tell you, oh, you have to be awful to everyone to get ahead.
15:36They're going to actually think about, wait, what is it
15:39I do that's productive?
15:40What's helpful?
15:42Operating, navigating office politics,
15:44as long as you're not doing it at the expense of others,
15:47is not a bad thing.
15:49And one of the principles I really believe strongly in
15:52is that instead of seeing yourselves
15:54on opposite side of the tables, that you're
15:57angry at one another, you're constantly
15:59vying for the same rewards or promotions
16:02or raises, instead see yourselves on the same side
16:06off the table trying to solve a problem.
16:09You also want to, and this is true for any of the archetypes,
16:13is occasionally call them out on the behavior.
16:16So let's take for example, one of the things
16:18that the political operator loves to do is steal credit.
16:21They love to take credit for your work.
16:23For example, everyone works on a project.
16:25They get up in front of the room,
16:27they're like, I did this amazing thing, right?
16:30Or they send out the notice to everyone saying, here's
16:33the results of the project that I worked on.
16:36One of the things you can say to them
16:38afterwards is, hey, I saw you took credit for that
16:41and we all worked on it.
16:42What was up with that?
16:45Just a very simple question.
16:46And not saying, I wish you hadn't done that, right?
16:49But just asking, why did you do that?
16:51And asking in a very neutral tone.
16:54And they may have a zillion reasons why they did it.
16:57They may say I did all the work.
16:59But again, you've put them on notice
17:01that you're actually paying attention.
17:03And you can preempt some of these political operating
17:06behaviors by actually agreeing ahead of time
17:09about how credit's going to be shared.
17:12In your initial meeting with everyone,
17:14how are we actually going to share credit?
17:16How are we going to make sure people know who worked on what?
17:19And sometimes you do have to sort of steal back
17:23the credit by asking a smart question in a meeting that
17:26shows that you worked on it or raising your hand and saying,
17:29thank you so much for talking about what the team worked on.
17:32I also want to acknowledge and list
17:34the other people who worked on it.
17:35Sometimes you just have to sort of step in and take that credit
17:38back.
17:39AMY BERNSTEIN: But it also sounds
17:40as if it's helpful if you know who you're dealing with,
17:42preempt the behavior with rules of engagement
17:46that you agree on together.
17:48right?
17:48AMY GALLO: Yes absolutely.
17:49And that's actually one of the reasons
17:51I started with the archetypes is that if you
17:54know what you're dealing with, you
17:55can find the tactics that work.
17:57And to your point, you can preempt some of the behavior.
18:02So can we talk about the know it all?
18:03Because that's--
18:04AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh please, I knew you were going to go there.
18:06AMY GALLO: Yes, so because the know it all
18:09and we can also call that the mansplainier, right?
18:13The person who tells you everything
18:15they think you should know even though you already know it,
18:19who really proclaims things so confidently, and believes they
18:24absolutely can dominate the conversation
18:26because they have so much to say.
18:28And the know it all really brokers in overconfidence.
18:33One of the most popular articles we've ever published on HBR.org
18:36is called, why do so many incompetent men become leaders?
18:42And Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic, who wrote that article
18:45talks about how much we value as a society,
18:48and I don't just mean US society,
18:51but many societies value overconfidence.
18:54Now we are all prone to overconfidence.
18:57We overestimate how much we're going to earn,
18:59how successful we're going to be in our career, most of us
19:02do that.
19:03The problem is, we reward it.
19:05So the know it all, is actually brokering
19:07in something they often works, especially
19:10when it comes to things that are difficult to measure,
19:13like leadership.
19:14There's no objective measure of how good a leader you are.
19:18So we often rely on people to tell us how good they are.
19:22And that leads to the know it all, the overconfidence,
19:25to people actually saying things that they firmly believe that
19:29they actually don't.
19:30AMY BERNSTEIN: So you say we reward that.
19:32What are those rewards?
19:33Is it just that we're too dumbstruck by their arrogance?
19:37Or what is it?
19:37AMY GALLO: A little bit, yeah.
19:39We are dumbstruck by their arrogance
19:40and we believe that because they say they can do something,
19:45that they can.
19:46We forget to actually test whether they can.
19:50So they say, this is never going to work.
19:52Or I'm confident our customers are
19:55going to love this new feature.
19:56And instead of asking for the data or the facts or underlying
20:00assumptions, because they're so confident, we believe them.
20:03AMY BERNSTEIN: OK.
20:04So how should we deal with that?
20:08AMY GALLO: So facts and data are your friends here.
20:10When someone proclaims something that they're
20:12absolutely certain about, if someone starts
20:15mansplaining something to you.
20:16And I have to say we use that term mansplaining so flippantly
20:21now.
20:21But we have to understand that the costs of that behavior
20:25are incredibly detrimental.
20:27We undermine others when we demean them or talk down
20:30to them or are condescending to them in front of others.
20:34So there are real costs to these behaviors
20:36we have to keep in mind.
20:38But back to facts and data.
20:39So when someone actually proclaims something
20:42and they're so certain about it, one
20:44of the questions you can say is, oh, it's interesting.
20:47I don't think we have the same understanding.
20:49What are you basing that opinion on?
20:51That puts them on notice that they just
20:55can't proclaim things.
20:56They have to actually have facts and data.
20:58And if they say, well, I know it because
20:59of this and this and this.
21:00Say, that's awesome.
21:01Can we look at the data?
21:02And if you don't have data, can we actually
21:05run some experiments to make sure that's correct.
21:08That may be correct.
21:09I just would like to know whether it really is.
21:13AMY BERNSTEIN: I was once in a little of a debate in a meeting
21:16with someone who tried to shut me down by saying,
21:21I guess I'm just burdened with too much knowledge
21:24about this topic.
21:27Quote unquote.
21:30AMY GALLO: Wow.
21:31Yeah, and that might have been my response.
21:33AMY BERNSTEIN: I did.
21:34I did wow a bit and I may have guffawed.
21:39But what would have been a constructive way of engaging?
21:42AMY GALLO: I think saying, oh, wow, you know, OK.
21:45And even saying, that's interesting.
21:47I think we all have a ton of knowledge on this topic.
21:51Oh, that's interesting.
21:52What kind of knowledge are you bringing to bear here?
21:55What's the basis for that?
21:57Because then you sort of start poking holes
21:58in that overconfidence.
22:01One thing I will say about any of these archetypes
22:03is, oftentimes the way we interpret difficult behavior is
22:08through our own biased lens.
22:10So sometimes women in particular get
22:13blamed for being a know it all when they actually
22:16have knowledge.
22:16We just are uncomfortable with a woman asserting herself
22:20as an expert.
22:21So you have to also be careful that you're not labeling people
22:26with these archetypes or with these labels
22:28just because you're not comfortable with that type
22:31of person exhibiting that type of behavior.
22:34AMY BERNSTEIN: OK, let me just ask you about that.
22:36What if you are a woman, and you are picking up that someone
22:43is labeling you a know it all.
22:45How do you handle that?
22:46AMY GALLO: Well this is, again, facts
22:48and data are your friends.
22:49So you can talk about why you believe
22:52you have this knowledge.
22:53Now that doesn't mean you hand out your resume
22:55at the beginning of the meeting and say,
22:57I'm going to be the expert here because of all
22:58of my qualifications.
23:00Instead you might find ways to talk about, well,
23:03when I've spent five years doing x, I learned this.
23:08Find ways to make clear that have the credentials
23:12that you're claiming to have, and that
23:14allow you to speak knowledgeably about the topic.
23:17AMY BERNSTEIN: Wow.
23:17That is going to be so difficult for so many of us.
23:20AMY GALLO: Yes.
23:21And so I have a workaround.
23:23If you are uncomfortable doing that,
23:24you can also find an ally who can
23:27help verify your credentials in front of others.
23:30So actually find someone who can say,
23:33I'd love to hear from Amy on this,
23:35because she's been in editing for 20 plus years.
23:38AMY BERNSTEIN: She's burdened with so much knowledge.
23:41AMY GALLO: That's right.
23:42Let's unload some of Amy's burden and hear her knowledge.
23:46AMY BERNSTEIN: Yes, that's exactly right.
23:47Yeah.
23:48AMY GALLO: And this is true for many of our responses,
23:51either whether it's to being labeled the difficult person
23:55or it's in response to a difficult person,
23:58we do have a narrower range of acceptable behavior for women.
24:02And so oftentimes, we have to rely on others
24:05to help us gain that credibility to assert ourselves,
24:09to actually counteract some of the bias
24:12that we might be experiencing.
24:14AMY BERNSTEIN: So that seems like a really good strategy.
24:16How do you bring that to life?
24:18Do I say to Maureen sitting over there,
24:22so, Maureen, I'm a little bit afraid
24:24of what Mr. Burden of Knowledge is going to say to me.
24:28Would you please stand up and say that Amy
24:31has four PhDs in this topic?
24:33Or how do I do this?
24:34AMY GALLO: Yes, that's exactly it.
24:36It can be helpful to find someone who you suspect is also
24:39suffering the same bias, right?
24:42So if you get interrupted, instead of you having to say,
24:45I'm speaking.
24:46Have Maureen, who would do this on your behalf,
24:49I know she's a kind person, say, Amy was talking.
24:52I'd love to hear what she has to say.
24:54AMY BERNSTEIN: And that turns out
24:55to be a really easy thing to do.
24:57AMY GALLO: Yes, and you just agree with Maureen
24:59before the meeting.
25:00Hey, we're getting silenced.
25:01Let's stick up for each other.
25:03Or I get the sense that they're doubting my expertise.
25:06Could you say something about my credibility in this area?
25:09AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, you write a lot about how important it is
25:12to have that pal in the office.
25:14And I think this is where it comes into play.
25:16It's important for a lot of reasons.
25:18AMY GALLO: Yes.
25:18I do want to say something about that.
25:20Because all of you raised your hand
25:22a lot in thinking about these difficult people.
25:24Show of hands, how many people actually
25:26have at least one great relationship with a coworker?
25:30Yes.
25:31All of you, exactly.
25:32These people are hugging.
25:33That makes me so happy.
25:37So remember that.
25:39When you're dealing with that difficult person,
25:41it is incredibly stressful.
25:44It can ruin a day.
25:45It can ruin an entire stint at an organization
25:49like your nemesis did.
25:50But you probably have many more positive relationships.
25:55And those people can be your allies,
25:57either in counteracting that difficult behavior
26:00or in just helping bolster your confidence,
26:04bolstering your mood.
26:05Those are the relationships we want
26:07to turn to in these moments of stress,
26:09even though our negativity bias really
26:12makes us focus on the bad behaviors that we're seeing.
26:17So we're going to go to questions from you guys.
26:21Don't be afraid to ask about difficult people in your life,
26:25and Amy will handle them.
26:27AUDIENCE: Hi.
26:28Thank you so much for the advice.
26:30So I wanted to ask you how to deal with the insecure boss who
26:36might take credit of your work.
26:38And they trying to kind of control your workflow,
26:42limiting your interaction with other people
26:44in other departments, basically isolating you
26:47in one little corner and just do your thing
26:50and just keep you in a need to know basis.
26:52AMY GALLO: So do you have a boss who does this?
26:54Can I ask?
26:55AUDIENCE: Yes, please.
26:56He's not here.
26:58AMY GALLO: So there's a couple of things
26:59with an insecure manager.
27:00Number one, unfortunately, research
27:03shows that genuine flattery helps to calm their ego.
27:07So if you can find something they're actually
27:10really good at, point that out.
27:12And they have to truly be good at it.
27:14Sometimes that calms what we think
27:15of as like ego defensiveness, in the sense
27:18that they have to really protect themselves or protect
27:21their territory.
27:22That can calm that down a little bit.
27:25It's not fun to do.
27:27And it's a tall order to ask someone to do that.
27:30But that can help put them in a better frame of mind
27:34so that you can do some more of the aggressive calling out.
27:37I will say any time you're dealing with someone
27:40who has more authority than you, maybe has control
27:43over your salary, your work opportunities,
27:46you do want to do a risk assessment of,
27:49what are the risks of me calling out this behavior.
27:52Or do I risk damaging the relationship?
27:55What will happen?
27:56At the same time, you want to also do
27:59a risk assessment of what happens
28:01if I don't speak up about this?
28:03So in your case, you're not getting exposure.
28:06You're not getting visibility.
28:07You're not getting credit.
28:08Those are really big risks .
28:10And that might counterbalance the risk of maybe possibly
28:14damaging the relationship.
28:15So what does that actually sound like?
28:17You might say to your boss, I want
28:20to make sure we have a conversation about how we get
28:23credit for the work we've done.
28:25You're not saying, I want the credit.
28:26You don't want to set up a tug of war.
28:29But how do we get credit for what we've done.
28:31You might even do something as simple as next time you
28:34present to leadership, can I create
28:36a slide that has the list of everyone who
28:38worked on the project?
28:40Make a simple suggestion.
28:41Offer to do it for them.
28:43Or next time you present about the project, I'd love to join.
28:46Can I come sit in on the meeting?
28:48All right, just gentle questions.
28:50Do you think you could do that?
28:51AUDIENCE: Yeah I actually try some of them.
28:53And I think it helps him to be a little less guarded.
28:58But at the same time, like the positive change
29:01that I've seen in him is very small.
29:03And I'm trying to have that positive conversation with him,
29:06like call out some of the things that you've done really great.
29:08But it's been months, and I'm getting to the point
29:11where I'm a little bit anxious about this and less patient.
29:16So I wonder like how can we keep having these one on one
29:20conversation with him, or should we somehow strategically
29:23call out once in a while in a bigger group?
29:26I don't just to see how he responds to it?
29:28AMY GALLO: Yeah one of the things I strongly
29:30believe in putting any of these tactics in place
29:33is that it has to be an experiment.
29:35You have to put on your scientist mindset,
29:38and say, OK, I'm going to try this tactic.
29:41Let's see what works.
29:42So you're seeing incremental, minor improvements
29:45with the tactics you've tried.
29:47Maybe calling them out in front of the group
29:50will have a different result. Now, there's
29:53risks to doing that.
29:54And you have to be prepared for those risks.
29:57But you might learn a lot from that situation.
30:00So certainly I don't think there's
30:02anything that would hold you back
30:05from trying that and seeing what you learn along the way.
30:09I will also say that incremental improvement is actually
30:13a huge success when it comes to difficult people.
30:15I think we think we're going to put these tactics in place,
30:18I mean, I think about your nemesis.
30:19Like, if you had called her out, would she
30:21have just been like, oh, my gosh,
30:23I've been horrible to Amy B?
30:25AMY BERNSTEIN: No.
30:26AMY GALLO: Right, no.
30:27She would not.
30:28And is your boss going to say, you know what?
30:30I've been mistreating this team member because I feel insecure.
30:34No, we're not going to get that level of self awareness.
30:37So you're really looking for small improvements.
30:40At the same time, you have to also set limits of,
30:44I'm going to try this for six months.
30:47If I don't see these three things change,
30:51then I'm going to start looking for another job
30:53in a different department.
30:54Or I'm going to find a way to talk to that person's boss
30:58and make sure that they understand the work I'm doing.
31:01And that's the other thing with an insecure manager who's
31:03sort of putting you in that corner,
31:05try to make connections in other departments on your own,
31:09of your own initiative.
31:10I would inform your boss and say, hey,
31:12I'm meeting with so-and-so in this other department.
31:14I want to hear about their work.
31:16I'm going to share what we're doing.
31:17Let them know so they don't think you're
31:19maneuvering behind their back.
31:21But make sure you make those connections so people know
31:24about the good work you do.
31:25AUDIENCE: Thank you.
31:26AMY GALLO: You're welcome.
31:27AMY BERNSTEIN: So let's go to this side now.
31:29AUDIENCE: I'm hoping to get a little bit of advice
31:32when you're dealing with a certain individual
31:34that I think difficult is an understatement, where
31:37they are passive aggressive.
31:39They are a know it all and all of that,
31:41to the point where almost bullying in the office
31:44and setting a toxic culture.
31:47Which unfortunately is what I have at my work now
31:49that I've been at for almost 10 years.
31:50And I've just seen it turn completely dark,
31:53where this individual is in a different department.
31:56They're at the top of their department.
31:58I'm in a completely other world.
32:00But now the people who report up to him
32:03are coming to me to vent.
32:04And I don't know how to deal with it and navigate that.
32:07Do you have any advice you can give on that front?
32:11AMY GALLO: So we call this on the podcast team
32:13the hot mess, right?
32:15The person who's all of the archetypes.
32:17And you read those behaviors you're like,
32:19check, check, check.
32:21One quick question.
32:22Do you have to deal directly with this person or are you
32:24just dealing with the venting that's coming.
32:26AUDIENCE: I deal with the venting
32:27and I deal with the person sometimes.
32:29AMY GALLO: When you say bullying,
32:30can you just give me one example?
32:32AUDIENCE: Of course, so texts our CEO
32:35to say that somebody is watching "Seinfeld"
32:37at their desk when they're not watching "Seinfeld."
32:40AMY GALLO: Or shopping.
32:41AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
32:43AUDIENCE: I'm also Canadian, so he mocks my accent,
32:45so things like that.
32:46AMY GALLO: OK, Yeah you're dealing with a toxic hot mess.
32:50So there are a couple of things.
32:52Research shows those people are very unlikely to reform
32:55their behavior.
32:56So, I'll talk in a minute about how to protect yourself
32:59from that behavior.
33:01But in some cases, those people do respond to authority.
33:05So you might consider escalating the issue
33:08and highlighting it to someone who can do something about it.
33:11Now, the key phrase there is someone
33:14who can do something about it.
33:16So we often think, I'm going to escalate to their boss.
33:19Or I'm going to escalate to HR.
33:20But do they have the skills and the motivation
33:23to actually address the behavior?
33:26Usually the answer is no.
33:28So do not escalate to someone who
33:30is going to be inept in actually handling it.
33:34If you do have someone, is there someone you could escalate to?
33:38AUDIENCE: Unfortunately, I think it would just
33:40have to be our CEO.
33:41AMY GALLO: Right.
33:41Yes.
33:42That is an option.
33:44If I were the CEO of your company,
33:45I would like to know that someone is accusing people
33:48of watching "Seinfeld" at their desk
33:50or mocking someone's accent.
33:51I personally would want to know that.
33:53And you might go with a few people,
33:55so that you don't look like one disgruntled employee,
33:58but there are several people.
34:00When you do escalate, you want to make
34:02sure you're clear the impact to the business,
34:05that this isn't a personal vendetta, that you're not just
34:09hurt feelings.
34:09Although I think hurt feelings are important and should
34:12be valued.
34:12But oftentimes, people in charge want
34:14to know that there's an impact to the business.
34:17So that's one thing I would make sure.
34:19And I would also, starting now, I
34:21would have you and the people who are venting to you document
34:24as quickly as you can, these behaviors, day, time,
34:27what happened, how you responded,
34:29what the response was.
34:31Because that documentation is going to help you
34:33if things go south or sideways.
34:36The other thing I think you really need to do
34:38is start protecting yourself.
34:40So listening to your colleagues venting, is kind of you.
34:43But you might also figure out ways
34:46to not focus your time and energy thinking and talking
34:50about this person, and create what some experts call
34:53a microculture.
34:54So if this person is creating a toxic culture,
34:57can you create a team of people, maybe it's you
34:59and one other person, maybe it's five people, where you actually
35:03agree that's not the culture we're going to adhere to.
35:06We're going to treat one another with compassion, kindness,
35:09respect.
35:10Then you've got that protective bubble
35:12that you can go to when you need a reprieve from the toxicity.
35:17And ultimately, I think you said you're
35:19at this organization for 10 years.
35:21Has he also been at the organization for 10 years?
35:24AUDIENCE: No.
35:24Half that time.
35:24AMY GALLO: Half that time.
35:26That's five years of a long time with a hot mess.
35:29So I also think you ask yourself, is the behavior
35:34becoming so detrimental to my ability to do my job,
35:37to my sense of self worth, to my well-being that I
35:41want to look elsewhere.
35:43I will never advise someone to quit their job
35:45if they love their job.
35:46But I also don't think you should stick it out
35:49in a situation that's toxic and is not going to change.
35:54Does that help?
35:55AUDIENCE: Absolutely.
35:56Thank you very much.
35:56AMY GALLO: Thank you.
35:57AMY BERNSTEIN: So we'll take the question over here.
35:59AUDIENCE: Yeah, so I think this is
36:01going to add on to the last question as well.
36:03And I want to thank you for sort of describing
36:05the torturer, because I think for those of us who
36:07have had to deal with those personalities,
36:09just having that name is helpful.
36:12So I've had the experience--
36:14AMY GALLO: I just have to pause for a second.
36:16You call them the torturer, not the tormentor.
36:19And I like that.
36:22They torture and torment.
36:25AUDIENCE: You feel tortured.
36:27The tormentor, for the past kind of 15 years
36:30and that kind of mentor turned tormentor relationship.
36:34And what she does is that she doesn't like
36:37to meet with us as a group.
36:38And she's gone into a leadership position.
36:41And recently her best friend is now our leader above that.
36:44But she plays the political game very, very well,
36:48and manages up very well.
36:50Then also doesn't like to have meetings with everyone present.
36:53She likes to have individual meetings.
36:56Keep close.
36:57You know we're going to fly in close formation.
36:59So it's very much like you're in that inner circle
37:01or you're out.
37:02So it really pits people against each other.
37:04So it creates this very hostile work environment
37:07where people just do not feel psychologically
37:09safe to say anything.
37:10Because you never know what anyone else is thinking.
37:12We're trying to demonstrate for younger
37:14people in the organization the right way
37:16and the right culture.
37:18I love that idea of setting kind of your microculture.
37:21But are there mechanisms that you
37:23can go to with the right way to go to more senior leadership,
37:27who are very well aware of a lot of these issues,
37:29but yet have allowed it to persist for a decade or more.
37:34AMY GALLO: A decade or more.
37:36Whew.
37:36So, what makes you believe that senior leaders are
37:39aware of this?
37:39AUDIENCE: Because there's been direct conversations
37:42about that behavior.
37:43I think there may not be knowing to the extent and sort of what
37:46that does to people's well-being and their work efficiency
37:51and just their lives.
37:52But there's definitely are aware.
37:57It's sort of like, how do you, as you're getting into a more
38:00senior position yourself, or you really
38:03want to set the stage for your colleagues
38:06and those who are coming up so that you can really
38:11change that culture.
38:13AMY GALLO: Can I ask, why do you think the senior leaders
38:15haven't done anything about it?
38:17AUDIENCE: I think it's a great question.
38:19I think they don't know the extent potentially
38:21of the damage that it's causing.
38:23I also think if you have someone who's like very charismatic
38:26and manages up really well they're
38:29obviously benefiting in some way by that individual being there.
38:34But it's a little unclear.
38:35But I think most likely just that they
38:37are benefiting in some way.
38:39And for them, the risk benefit is better for that individual
38:44to stay.
38:45AMY GALLO: Yeah, so a couple of things I'll say.
38:48One, you may be doing them a favor by actually-- or not just
38:53but you and others together might be doing them a favor
38:56by raising their awareness of the impact it's
38:59having, and making clear this is not necessarily about her.
39:05This is about the business and the impact to the business.
39:07This is what we're seeing and we want to make you aware of it.
39:11That is incredibly hard to do.
39:13And I do want to point out that there's
39:15the risk of you becoming labeled the difficult person in doing
39:20that, right?
39:21So that is something you have to consider in the context.
39:23That you work in, the culture.
39:25Will, by calling out the behavior or escalating it,
39:28will you get labeled as the difficult person?
39:31So that's something to keep in mind.
39:33I do think the concept of microculture
39:36would be important.
39:37And you talked about trying to set the tone for the people
39:41coming up below you.
39:43And I think really trying to be clear, explicit,
39:47about what norms you want to operate with.
39:50On this team, we work towards psychological safety.
39:55We trust one another.
39:56We have open dissent and debate.
39:59We are kind and polite to each other.
40:01But that doesn't mean we don't have conflict.
40:03Laying out what are those norms and writing them down,
40:07making them clear, asking the people coming up,
40:10the younger folks to actually contribute to those, so
40:13that it's clear you're going to operate differently.
40:16One of the benefits of these microcultures
40:19is sometimes they gain the attention
40:22of the senior leaders.
40:23And they see, oh, that team over there
40:26actually is doing really well.
40:28People are wanting to work with that team.
40:31They're hitting their targets.
40:33They're exceeding their targets.
40:34And they might think, OK, how do we get more of that and less
40:39of what I'm hearing over here?
40:41So I do think that can help to really set the stage of,
40:45this is how we want to interact.
40:48I would love to tell you that going and reporting this
40:52to someone in authority is actually going to do something.
40:54But I'm getting the sense from just the nodding and shaking
40:57of your head, that you don't feel that will work.
40:59Is that right?
41:00AUDIENCE: I think you're exactly right.
41:02And I think you try and you're scared to do so.
41:04Then when and others want to support you,
41:06but they're also scared.
41:07And you do run the absolute risk of retaliation,
41:10and also of you being labeled the difficult personality.
41:13I think that's been really the challenge
41:16of navigating this environment for a long time.
41:20Thank you so much.
41:21AMY BERNSTEIN: Take a question over here.
41:23AUDIENCE: Hi.
41:23Thank you for being here.
41:24For those of us who had arm fatigue at the start,
41:28as we advance in our careers, there's
41:30often a tension between having experienced
41:33so many of these behaviors from managers,
41:36and transitioning into management and leadership
41:38yourself.
41:39And how to be effective and still give direct feedback
41:42and achieve your goals with this constant voice
41:45in your head of fearing that you're becoming
41:47one of these archetypes.
41:48And I was wondering if you could share some strategies for how
41:51to either maintain your confidence so you don't
41:53err into that category of the unconfident emerging
41:58supervisor.
41:59Or how to kind of give yourself a gut check.
42:01And is it really that I am a--
42:04for those of us here who identify as female
42:07or in other identities that have often
42:09been made to think that they're less than.
42:12Is that what's operating?
42:14Or am I really veering into territory
42:16where I may be out of line?
42:18And how do you navigate that?
42:19AMY GALLO: Yeah, right.
42:21So you're talking about, how do you navigate what often people
42:23call imposter syndrome of, oh, I'm not cut out for this.
42:28Maybe I'm really horrible at this,
42:30versus natural insecurity, which we all feel by the way.
42:35And if you don't, you're part of that lovely group
42:37we call psychopaths, right?
42:40So you do feel some insecurity?
42:42Is that healthy insecurity that's going to help you
42:45reflect on how you want to do better?
42:47I'm not sure you're ever going to know the difference.
42:50So I would instead focus on what actions you can take.
42:54Couple of things.
42:55One, write down your values.
42:57Think about those managers that really
42:59were difficult for you, the things they did,
43:01and what you want to do instead.
43:03I would even like fold a piece of paper in half,
43:06and just write on one side, these are the things they did.
43:09These are the things I want to do instead.
43:11And that can help you hold yourself accountable.
43:13Maybe once a month, once a quarter, you look through,
43:16am I doing these things?
43:17The other key piece is to find trusted advisors that
43:22can give you frank feedback.
43:24A lot of times we'll go to someone and say,
43:26how am I doing?
43:26And they'll say, you're doing great.
43:28And we love those friends.
43:30They're like, you're such a good manager.
43:32I would be-- oh, it'd be a gift to be on your team.
43:35But you want the friend who's going to say,
43:38you're really good.
43:38But you know what you do?
43:40Here's this one thing.
43:41You're a know it all.
43:42Like, you interrupt people, or you
43:44tend to veer toward negativity as opposed to positivity.
43:49You could inspire your team more.
43:51You want to find those people who will tell you like it is.
43:55Do you have those people in your life?
43:56AUDIENCE: Yeah and I'm very lucky to.
43:58And those conversations can be kind of painful.
44:02But you definitely straighten up after that.
44:05AMY GALLO: Here's the other thing about imposter syndrome.
44:07Everyone feels it.
44:09If they don't, they're the know it all, right?
44:12But everyone is always thinking, I'm
44:16really not sure I'm cut out for this.
44:18So remember those feelings are normal.
44:20Use that to inspire you to get better, as opposed
44:23to question yourself.
44:25And surround yourself with both people
44:27who will tell you what you're great at
44:29and bolster your confidence and also will
44:32tell you the frank feedback that you need to get better.
44:36One tip, and actually it's a tip in the book when you're
44:38dealing with an insecure manager,
44:39but I think it works really well if you're also
44:42not sure of yourself, which is to keep a--
44:45and I have one of these in my email a compliments folder.
44:48So any time someone sends you, even
44:50if it's like great job on that project,
44:52or I loved how you presented that.
44:54File that away in a folder.
44:55And when you're having a day where you're like,
44:57am I really cut out for this management thing,
45:00look at that folder.
45:02Remember you are doing many things well.
45:04You're probably not doing everything perfectly.
45:06But guess what?
45:07You're human.
45:08AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, I'm afraid we've come
45:10to the end of our conversation.
45:12I think now everyone understands why you, Amy Gallo,
45:16are everyone's first advisor.
45:19And I hope everyone goes out and buys this book and reads it.
45:23I learned so much from it.
45:25So thank you.
45:26AMY GALLO: Thank you.
45:27This has been so fun.
45:28[APPLAUSE]
45:33If you'd like to learn more about how to work with anyone,
45:35check out the four other episodes
45:37that are part of Women at Work's getting along series.
45:40They're in our podcast feed.
45:42You can also order my book through HBR's online store,
45:45Amazon, or your favorite bookstore.
45:48AMY BERNSTEIN: Women at Work's editorial and production team
45:50is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina [INAUDIBLE],,
45:54Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates.
45:59Robin Moore composed this theme music.
46:01[MUSIC PLAYING]

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This page contains the full transcript of Getting Along with Difficult Coworkers (Live in Boston) | Women at Work | Podcast by Harvard Business Review, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 8,338 words across 1,132 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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