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Gestão do tempo e priorização • Liderança Subversiva e o Futuro do Trabalho na América Latina 2 — Transcript

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0:05Time management and prioritization. A
0:08lot of people are talking about this,
0:10right? What are some phrases and ideas
0:13you've heard when this topic comes up?
0:16I see people saying, for example, that
0:18you just need to learn to say no. You
0:20can also do something else, which is to
0:23reduce your screen time quite easily.
0:26There's one I hate, do you know it? The
0:28one that says, "In 21 days, if you
0:30repeat it, you'll create a habit."
0:33Honey, I've been trying to create the
0:34habit of going to the gym for about 10
0:36years. It never occurred to me. Every
0:38day I suffer, complain, and question my
0:41sanity. Is talking about time
0:43management and prioritization really
0:45that simple? Will these little tools
0:47like Pomodoro, Scrum, or whatever
0:49matrix solve the current problem with
0:55our prioritization and management? I
0:58don't know if I can solve this alone.
1:01And for that, I invited two very
1:03special people. I have some great
1:06professional friends who don't create
1:08content for the internet. I know we're
1:11kind of in a phase of thinking, "Oh,
1:13does the internet need more content?"
1:16But from one person to another, I think
1:18it does. That's why I forced them to
1:20come here to this podcast, that they'll
1:23be forced to share their knowledge with
1:25us. And I hope you're as happy as I am.
1:29So come on over, Baron and Lorena,
1:31Let's talk. Did you like it? podcastol
1:51Lorena invite con un po del inimooltura
2:26consultant un tiempo venezuela so una
2:31rpida dubling de meses y ahora estoy en
2:35crecimiento haciendo trabajo de cultura
2:40proyectos rapidísimo por recursos
2:44humanos de clima cultura consultant a
2:51minha invitação barão em português,
2:56faz à vontade.
2:59A gente legalizado o portol aqui.
3:01Contam pouco para galera sabe o sua
3:03antes de gente falar de gestão do
3:04tempo, prepricipação.
3:06Boa. Eu sou o Baron, Marco Baron, já
3:09conheço Lorena também, já conheço
3:11você.
3:12À panela, né? O negócio da panela.
3:14Praza estar aqui com você, Maira. Eh,
3:16eu sou consultor também, eu sou
3:18consultor de ORG design, então
3:21trabalho com o Targetil, eu sou uma dos
3:23parceiros de Targetil já por último
3:2610 anos, toda essa ano. Antes de isso,
3:30eu foi profissional de RH, então pelo
3:32maior parte do meu carreira
3:34profissional aí de HR em trabalho em
3:37vários subsistemas, Okay, so in HR,
3:39culture, development, I was a business
3:41partner, I was an HR executive, so I've
3:44also experienced many different
3:46realities, right? And in the last 10
3:48years, I've been working more as a
3:50professor. I teach at Dom Cabral, I
3:52teach at Targetil, I teach at FAAP, and
3:55then, obviously, consulting work,
3:57a little bit of everything, right? An
3:58entrepreneur, he's just doing it. And
4:00so I want to start, folks, with this
4:01topic of time management and
4:02prioritization. I don't know about you;
4:04every now and then you call me at
4:06companies to talk about this topic, and
4:07I only accept when I say, "I'm going to
4:09talk about it the way I think we should
4:11talk about time management and
4:12prioritization," because I have a
4:14worldview, a vision that I'm not going
4:15to share yet, for you to bring your own
4:17perspectives on this topic. So, to
4:21start warming up, I'd like to ask you,
4:24Lorena, what you think about this topic
4:27when we talk about time management and
4:30prioritization, aiming at...the
4:32companies, your feelings, your doubts?
4:36For example, on this topic, I believe
4:38it is a complicated topic. Firstly, it
4:41involves several elements of the
4:44country's local culture. I
4:47differentiate with the team in
4:48different countries, for example, I'm
4:51counting examples that come to me. I
4:53work with people from teams in Peru,
4:56Chile for example and to manage time is
5:00my priority. Jefe sends what's up. That
5:06phrase commands those who can obey
5:08those who have sense there too. Exactly
5:12like that, but that belief is in
5:13cultures that are very much the leader
5:15who commands and really obeys if they
5:17live that way. So the priority is good
5:21and that's what there is for today, it
5:22doesn't necessarily decide or has 100%
5:24of the decision also depending on the
5:25culture in Brazil including things that
5:27it is not just the task that has to be
5:29done or the delivery that has to be
5:30done, but that there are things that
5:32are not on schedule that require a lot
5:33of time. If I deliver something to many
5:38involved people, even my boss, I need
5:40to deal with all these people, dedicate
5:43a great deal of energy to managing each
5:45involved ego and after that delivery
5:52takes time. The first piece of feedback
5:55I remember receiving when I arrived in
5:57Brazil was Lorena, you have to learn to
6:00say things nicely.
6:01Hmm. You're
6:02very direct, you're very frontal.
6:05culture of direct frontales objective
6:06to decide things here I understand that
6:08culture is much more relational and
6:10that there is a need to know how to
6:12decide with giving 10 verdim.
6:25And
6:28for me, you have an aspect of this
6:30topic that is technical, right? it’s
6:32the techniques, the approaches and so
6:34on. We lived together Some of them,
6:36actually. And I think that perhaps you
6:40might want to address this point at a
6:42later time, but I do believe that they
6:45have their own place of importance and
6:47relevance.
6:48Uh, I think some of them even work,
6:50right? At least for me, some worked,
6:53but for me that's just one aspect and
6:55not the biggest aspect of this story.
6:58We could also talk perhaps about
7:00another part, which is why some things
7:02work and others don't, right? I would
7:05say it is perhaps a middle ground, a
7:07more scientific aspect—I am not sure
7:09if that is a good word—but for me
7:10there is an aspect that we cannot fail
7:12to address, which is the political
7:14aspect that is inherent to this entire
7:16story. When we think about time
7:18management or productivity or
7:19prioritization, right? Perhaps we
7:22should think about who benefits from
7:24this? What do I lose and what do I gain
7:27, and who else benefits from this? So,
7:30for me, that specific aspect of this
7:32story is something that we simply
7:34cannot remove from our conversation
7:37here. It's generally not what we talk
7:40about, it's generally not about What we
7:42read or hear, right? We talk about
7:45techniques, but we don't talk about who
7:47benefits from them. What are the hidden
7:49gains, what are the relationships? You
7:52know, in my research on Latin America
7:54—I'm doing a master's degree in Latin
7:56America through Prolan at USP—my
7:58research focus, and a supposed
8:00framework I want to propose, is that I
8:02see that most existing frameworks on
8:04time management and prioritization
8:06don't include relationships. They say,
8:09"Oh, it's important, it's urgent." I
8:10want to mention a few here so we can
8:12work on these realities. I think, "But
8:14aren't these frameworks including the
8:16relationships I need to deal with in
8:18this prioritization technique?" It
8:20seems very simple. We take what's
8:22important, separate it from what's
8:23urgent, or we learn to say no, and
8:25everything goes—I'll say no, but what
8:27about the relationships? When I say no,
8:29how does the other person feel? What
8:31consequences will I suffer if I say no?
8:33So I see that some jargon circulates as
8:36a solution to this time management and
8:38prioritization crisis, which isn't
8:40necessarily what it seems in practice.
8:43That's what happens. So I want to
8:45mention some clichés, some phrases,
8:47some clichés that people say help
8:49people, and then you can take what you
8:51find most interesting or worst of all
8:53and bring it to us—an opposite of
8:55that, or just criticism of it, or
8:56examples from your own experience,
8:58right? You can complain. You can
9:00complain. You
9:01can. Or we can give solutions too,
9:03right? Because I love to complain. I
9:04love it, right? Like, I love it.
9:06Pleasure to complain, love. There's a
9:08complaint. I'm there. Ah, Maira, choose
9:09your battles. Not me. For me, all
9:11battles would be fought, none would be
9:13left out. I just don't fight because
9:15the day has 24 hours, right? So I'm not
9:16going to speak ill of anyone. I want
9:18tips too, right? Because occasionally
9:20I'm well regarded out there because I
9:21complain, but I solve problems, okay?
9:23That's the phrase,
9:23so that's what will happen. Then we
9:25took a quote from Sebrae, for example,
9:27which is a reference on this subject,
9:29right? It brings up the issue of
9:31looking at time management, at your
9:33tasks, The key is to plan your daily
9:35activities. Number one, two, set goals
9:38and deadlines for your tasks. Three,
9:41reduce distractions. Four, delegate
9:44tasks. Five, learn to say no. This is a
9:47classic, right? Everywhere has this. Uh
9:49, create rewards for completed tasks.
9:53Set aside time to take care of yourself
9:55. Uh-huh.
9:57Eight. Master productivity techniques
9:59for time management. In other words, to
10:01manage your time, you are already
10:03looking at a list of eight items that
10:05you have to deal with to manage your
10:06time. These phrases, these tips on
10:09prioritization, time management, what
10:12do you think? Uh, does this work,
10:14doesn't it? What have you observed in
10:17practice? Uh, what are the hidden gains
10:19that people don't see? We say one thing
10:22and do another, it generates, I don't
10:23know if it's a conflict, a paradox
10:25of dissonance, maybe a dissonance. Man,
10:29we talk about saying no, but if I
10:31actually say it, they ask me to list my
10:32tasks, yet my tasks involve a large
10:34number of different people. I can list
10:37the Tasks. Uh, which tools work? This
10:42tool, we love to standardize it. Let's
10:44standardize it, let's make it
10:46company-wide. Will it work the same way
10:49for everyone? Yeah, I wanted to
10:51elaborate a little on these phrases,
10:52these tools. Maybe the baron can start.
10:55Well, I confess that I need to confess
10:58that I listen to these phrases with a
11:00certain prejudice, right? Or this first
11:04phrase, looking at it like that, it
11:05seems to me that it was chosen by a
11:07very specific audience, right? The
11:11audience that can delegate things, that
11:14can say: "I don't want interruptions,
11:16kids," right? That doesn't need to stop
11:18to answer the door when someone comes
11:20to understand something. Or when a
11:21person, well, they need to work in the
11:23office, because now everyone has gone
11:25back to the office, they need to go to
11:26the doctor, they need to pick up the
11:28kids from school, damn, they need to do
11:29a lot of things that can't be discussed
11:31, stop for a bit, right? Put it in the
11:32agenda, put an appointment in my agenda
11:34. I can't do that. So, I keep thinking
11:37that...It's an interesting formula; it
11:39carries interesting principles like
11:41minimizing interruptions. True. It
11:45takes us a certain amount of time to
11:47resume our train of thought, especially
11:49when it is creative, after we have been
11:50interrupted. But let's assume we don't
11:53live in a perfect life where we can
11:55turn off the interruption button. So,
11:59what happens when we are interrupted?
12:01So, for me, the question of how to deal
12:04with interruptions seems more practical
12:07and useful than a plan that can't be
12:10executed, right?
12:12Avoiding interruptions, making sure
12:14they...I have a phrase I've been using
12:16in some training sessions: "If there's
12:18an unforeseen event every week, let's
12:20agree that it's expected, like, it's
12:22part of your business model." And I see
12:25that people suffer a lot trying to have
12:28a week where we won't be interrupted.
12:31Today we won't be, there won't be any
12:33unforeseen events. If there are
12:34interruptions every week, I can even
12:35count them, every week I have a base of
12:37three or four, right? I start
12:38scheduling, planning for unexpected
12:40things that might happen, you know?
12:41That's it
12:42for me, that's where I was going to
12:44talk about what I learned, and I'm not
12:46a model for this, okay?
12:48But I learned that
12:50when I can do it, it's useful to me,
12:53which is to set aside time for
12:55unexpected things. I can't always
12:57manage it, right? Because I have to pay
12:59bills. So,
13:00sometimes we only do what needs to be
13:01done.
13:03Lorena, what else do you think about
13:05this? I was thinking about a phrase
13:08like that: about being able to learn to
13:09say no. I think that, sometimes, it's
13:12not learning; having the privilege,
13:14being able to say no, is the right;
13:15being able to say no, I know how to say
13:17no. Easy for my friends, for people
13:20like my mom I can't. Perfect, can I
13:25tell her? It doesn't happen, if I don't
13:28suddenly say no, but will it go badly
13:30for me? Me va mi empleo, are you in
13:34danger? I don't
13:36know how to deal with the consequences
13:37of then I believe that there I spend a
13:39lot of time on relationships like dices
13:41and levels of relationships because
13:43someone is suddenly at a high level
13:45where it's easy to decide if I can't
13:47this day and grab it to do this. But
13:51someone who is below and has 10 levels
13:52above a boss doesn't have much right to
13:54say: "No, I can't, I have to do these
13:55things." And he ends up working outside
13:58the clock or on a Saturday to deliver
14:00the things he needs every day, because
14:04every day he's paying for a fire that
14:06someone hasn't planned, with all the
14:08things pending and 10 meetings. In one
14:10time, there's plenty to say, "I'm going
14:13to do my things," you know? So, I think
14:15there are many factors involved in
14:17saying no. It's not that I can't learn,
14:23I mean it doesn't work due to the hard
14:29topic. I don't think there's a single
14:34conclusion, a single way to solve this
14:37problem, like some, uh, some times that
14:45could be unexpected, but within the
14:48corporate world, the individual
14:50generally can't make that choice. Oh,
14:53and I'll leave a little space here for
14:54my unexpected event, right? That
14:56doesn't happen often. And then, uh, at
15:00that moment, the Pomodoro method starts
15:04to circulate, uh, Pareto matrix, uh,
15:07that Hans matrix, uh, I can't stand it.
15:11Important, urgent. Important, but not
15:13urgent. Who said what's important?
15:15What's urgent? I'm going to wake up, I
15:16can wake up today, it's important, it's
15:18urgent, huh? Yes, but I wanted to hear
15:21from you what you've seen work this way
15:23. Do you think there's another method
15:25that works better? It's only useful for
15:28certain situations, right? Imagine that
15:31all kinds of people are listening to
15:33this podcast. And that's it, most of us
15:36wake up every day to work in a company
15:38without many choices, as we've
15:40discussed here. But one thing or
15:42another, when I was in that corporate
15:44world where I lived for over 15 years,
15:46I felt it worked. I don't, I don't
15:49discredit everything by definition, but
15:51I think an interesting attitude is to
15:54experiment and see if it works for you,
15:56right? So for me it's very much like
15:59that, I'll experiment and see if it
16:01works. The habit thing didn't work for
16:03me either.
16:04Oh my God.
16:05But I think it's good for people to be
16:08open to experimenting. What I think
16:10might be good to reflect on is: let's
16:12not blame ourselves when these things
16:15don't work, because that's what you
16:16said. I think there's a collective
16:18dimension to this story; it's not an
16:20individual one. But we're taught to
16:23individualize a lot of things,
16:26including psychological suffering.
16:29Yes,
16:30when in reality we're in a relationship
16:32, and many things that happen in
16:33organizations, for example, are the
16:35same as when people turn around and say
16:37, "Look, we want to combat turnover—
16:39no, burnout. Let's do it, let's offer
16:42yoga classes to people." Damn, I love
16:45yoga, but that's not it, you know? Yeah
16:47. Let's
16:49make your house more organized, more
16:51coherent so people can live well within
16:53it, and maybe they'll get sick less,
16:55right? In some way, we've been taught
16:58that time is simply an individual
17:02property, right? Time management. And
17:04the reality is that the organization
17:06really does rule.
17:07Yes.
17:07If I am paying you, I expect you to do
17:09whatever I want during the entire time
17:11that you are inside here. And so, I
17:13believe that we need to start
17:14deconstructing that all over again. I'm
17:17not invalidating the tools. So, for
17:19instance, the tools that work for me
17:21are those that are firmly based on the
17:23interaction between different people.
17:25For example, when we use Camban, the
17:28Camban board, we negotiate things,
17:30visualize these things,
17:32visualize bottlenecks, we negotiate
17:34movement from one place to another. So,
17:38when we manage to negotiate things,
17:39that is, social interaction, it's being
17:41negotiated all the time. When we manage
17:44to do this in a way that works well for
17:46people, we have a better chance of
17:47managing time and prioritizing it. When
17:50we do this, assuming it's just an
17:52individual thing, all I have to do is
17:54block out my time. Yes, but
17:56I just need to get organized for the
17:58rest. I can't stand it when I have to
17:59say it, but I can be my own individual
18:00Camban. Say it, no. The idea of Camban
18:04is that I see people use the Camban
18:06board very unconsciously because of a
18:08fad or to just throw tasks around. You
18:10said: "No, it has a power you don't
18:12know what happens, which is
18:13visualization, which is stimulating
18:14conversations that sometimes wouldn't
18:16happen if everything wasn't on that
18:18board. For those who don't know, at
18:20home, that famous 'to do', 'done', '
18:23doing' board...Uh, Trello is very
18:25famous as a tool, right?" This podcast
18:28is going to be sponsored any day now.
18:30Then I'll just mention chemical tools,
18:32uh,
18:32so, uh, Trello and so on, so they're
18:34useful for visualization, so we don't
18:37rely on our memory and can negotiate
18:39based on visualization. I think it's
18:41super useful too. I think this element
18:45of negotiation through interaction
18:47helps us have a better chance of having
18:50a tool that works for prioritization,
18:52for time management. But again, I think
18:57there's something else to talk about
18:59here, which is how we assume that time
19:01is a thing.
19:03Philosophized. Now let's see. It will
19:05be the next, the next episode, no, next
19:06, the next conversation, because I also
19:08want to say something, but first,
19:09Lorena. I'm left thinking about what
19:13Marco Varón says about individual time
19:15knowing the pipe of agreement that
19:17works when it's collective, and the
19:20experiences he has had in teams where
19:22everyone has one. safe environment to
19:25decide, I can't stay with five things,
19:27I don't have time for anything, this is
19:29great. I need boldness, but not all
19:31environments are safe. Not all cultures
19:34have this safe environment. There are
19:36very hierarchical cultures, on the soil
19:38of companies, but also of countries. As
19:41much as possible, the person doesn't
19:44feel confident enough to decide: "I
19:46can't grasp a demand", nor is he able
19:48to decide: "I can't do it with more"
19:50demands, "it's too much" or ask for
19:52anything less. So, I believe that it
19:56also involves questioning from the
19:57person. You can, independently of the
19:59herramienta, decide not to ask for help
20:01, as there is also a very strong
20:03cultural question here. Yo I feel very
20:06much, it's bad to say: "I can't, I need
20:07" auda. Like: "ay, no pudiste?", "hate
20:12counts", no, that phrase: "it doesn't
20:14matter" cotton is frowned upon in some
20:16cultures. So, even if the tools or the
20:20space to talk are provided, people do
20:21not necessarily feel comfortable enough
20:23to stand up and say: "No, I cannot." I
20:27did it a few times when I first arrived
20:28, feeling: "well, here you can," and
20:30said: "ask for help, raise your hand."
20:33I'm going to seize the opportunity
20:39because I'm going to find a way to
20:41resolve this my way. Here it's safe,
20:43you can speak, and when you try, it
20:45doesn't necessarily happen. And when we
20:48talk about time management,
20:49prioritization, all the work goes
20:51through some level of communication, of
20:53negotiation, right? I even learned that
20:55from Dominique Barter when I did their
20:57nonviolent communication training. He
20:59says: "Well, I like the idea that
21:01communication is the tool of tools.
21:03Many tools, canvases, and templates
21:05exist because we simply can't...talk
21:08about certain things. They are
21:10facilitators of conversations that
21:12could take place. The tools give shape
21:14to conversations. And when we talk
21:17about this topic, I want to bring up a
21:20point I've been addressing that you
21:22haven't touched on yet, which I think
21:24might be interesting: I realize that
21:26throughout my career, even though I've
21:28received feedback about insubordination
21:30or arrogance, I delivered a lot of
21:32results, right? And that's why I'm here
21:35. I've always been very interested in
21:38understanding the company's strategy,
21:40its goals. I was always very pushy, I'd
21:42be like, 'I want to know the goals,
21:44honey.' Because when a leader arrived,
21:46someone above me, and I started a
21:48dialogue based on their existing
21:50knowledge, they were shocked. It wasn't
21:52that they liked it; maybe I was
21:54perceived as arrogant, but they had
21:55more difficulty negotiating with me
21:56because they weren't going to...There,
21:58and I'd say," Oh, you have to do it
21:59because you have to, because I knew the
22:01quarterly goal was such and such, Roy
22:02was such and such. "You know, I had
22:04that knowledge, and when I talk about
22:06time management, wherever I go, the
22:08first question I ask people is," What
22:10is good time management? What does
22:12being productive mean to you? "" And
22:14many people respond like this: 'Ah, uh,
22:16to do the most tasks in the shortest
22:18amount of time.' I see that there's
22:20this mentality of the task, of a bunch
22:22of little tasks, a list. That's when I
22:24end the day with the feeling that I was
22:26productive.
22:27I say, folks, companies are organisms
22:29created to generate profit. Uh-huh.
22:31Feeling doesn't deliver work at the end
22:33of the day, right? Some people, when I
22:36ask, say: 'Oh, my goal this year is to
22:38deliver three projects.' Three projects
22:41. If they fail, that's okay. You met
22:43the goal. Folks, no. Did I say what
22:46kind of pointer was supposed to be used
22:47for those three projects? Because I see
22:49that many people get worn out because
22:51the execution of the task seems like
22:53productivity itself. It seems that
22:55managing tasks well is the delivery
22:57itself. Uh-huh. And they, you talked a
22:59little bit at the beginning about
23:00delivering value, uh, I see that people
23:02have this difficulty understanding what
23:03value is in that company, whether it's
23:05increasing the number of sales,
23:07reducing cancellations, or pleasing
23:08some leadership. They can't perceive
23:10what value is. And given that they
23:12don't... "They realize they're fighting
23:13over small tasks. So, I've been
23:16bringing this up, and I see it works—
23:18I say it's kind of a cliché, but some
23:20days only a cliché can save our lives
23:22—which is: for those who don't know
23:24what they want, any path will do.
23:26Uh-huh. For those who don't know their
23:29goals and objectives, I think no tool
23:30alone will be enough if you don't
23:32understand. Because I'll discuss this
23:34in front of Camban about the tasks, but
23:36it will become a dispute between you
23:37and me, or between different
23:38departments. So, at some point, when I
23:41dealt with very different departments
23:42where everything was very urgent—for
23:44legal it's urgent, for marketing it's
23:46urgent for everyone—at some point I
23:48had to talk to them about the size of
23:49the queue, about the quarterly goals,
23:51and what they were fighting over. Or
23:53when I realized I had million-dollar
23:55projects competing with R $ 1,000
23:57projects. Well, if I can't handle
23:59everything, it seems to me that a
24:01little revenue criterion would boost
24:02this good idea, right? What you People
24:05argue as if money doesn't matter, or as
24:08if only relationships matter. I don't
24:11know if you have any insight into this,
24:12because I've been bringing up this
24:13criticism a lot wherever I go. It seems
24:15to me that, of course I know that with
24:17different positions and roles, people
24:19don't feel they need to know the
24:20strategy. If you're very junior, it
24:22might seem like," Oh, I have nothing to
24:23do with this, I'm just doing my little
24:25task here, I have to leave. "But it
24:27seems to me that another way, perhaps
24:29to improve time management, which is
24:30very useful to me, is to focus on what
24:32is valuable here,
24:34whether it's what was interpreted or
24:36agreed upon in that team or what's
24:38implied, for example, because I apply
24:40this to my career as well. I always say
24:42that we're in 2026, the world is only
24:44accelerating, it won't stop. So, there
24:47will always be more to do than is
24:49possible to do. There won't be a day
24:52when you wake up in the morning and
24:53think," Look, I got it done today, huh?
24:55"" Damn. "I have nothing to say that
24:57doesn't exist. Given that, what is
24:59value? What is the objective? What is
25:01the fastest thing I can do, deliver in
25:03the shortest time, that is most
25:05valuable? I keep thinking about these
25:08factors. Does this make sense to you?
25:11It's because I've been feeling this
25:12lack, because I don't know what I'm
25:13chasing.
25:14Anyone who comes to me will ask me for
25:15anything, and I'll say:" How am I going
25:16to say no? "" You can't talk then. "But
25:19this task has to do with that agreement
25:21we made about the goal that has to be
25:22met in 15 days. The person reflects on
25:25that.
25:26I keep thinking about it. Ah, I think
25:29it does have to do with it, because
25:30maybe it makes sense for us to consider
25:32it from two angles, right, the way I'm
25:34listening to you. One angle is my
25:37individual time management, right, of
25:40my day. I don't care where I am, how I
25:43deal with my own prioritization, but
25:46another angle of this story is how I do
25:48this in relation to other people who
25:51are also doing their own prioritization
25:53and time management, right? And I think
25:58that more than the tool, maybe the
26:00important thing is for us to have
26:02spaces, not just a physical space, but
26:05emotional space, right, inner space, so
26:07we can recombine things. Will it be a
26:11taboo between us when we don't have
26:13time to do something? Will you feel
26:17guilty and ostracized because I
26:19couldn't do that on time, or will we be
26:22able to talk about it and about it?
26:26What conditions are necessary for us to
26:28, you know, rearrange ourselves, for
26:30things to be done in a more appropriate
26:32way, in a more appropriate time? The
26:36environment, the context that we
26:38sustain together, is very important for
26:40us to manage our time and to discuss
26:43topics like productivity and so on. Now
26:46, again, the tools you gave as examples
26:48, even the phrase you gave as an
26:50example there, or the matrix from the
26:53former president of the United States,
26:55these tools are based on assumptions
26:57that I think are wrong. One assumption
27:00they work from is that we are able to
27:02plan and then execute the things that
27:03we have planned in a simple way. Uh-huh
27:05.
27:05These are assumptions that I think are
27:07wrong. Another assumption is that the
27:09problem is technical. And Lour just
27:12said, right? For me, the problem isn't
27:14just technical, and most of it isn't
27:16technical. There are relational,
27:19political, existential problems, right?
27:21Problems that for some people are even
27:24hygienic, right? So basic. It's so
27:27elementary. So, it's not just a
27:28technical matter, like," Oh, you just
27:30have a little timer to do the Pomodoro,
27:32"right? Another assumption that I
27:34consider to be mistaken is the idea
27:35that we can simply assume that people
27:37are truly free. Just say no, just say
27:41move the card to the left and not to
27:44the right. The truth is that we are not
27:47free. That's the truth. There are a lot
27:51of restrictions that we are subject to,
27:53from the bills I need to pay, right?
27:57From the distance I have to my work and
27:59the time it takes me to get there, to
28:00the fact of having a boss, people who
28:02simply tell me either yes or no. So you
28:05have countless restrictions, both from
28:07your home, your family, and your work.
28:11There's another assumption that is
28:13wrong, which is this: that time is a
28:15thing and we should occupy that thing,
28:17that space. It's what Bergson talked
28:20about as the spatialization of time.
28:22The spatialization of time. When we
28:24think that time is...Space confuses you
28:27. So, I have to occupy the space. And
28:30we get this idea that the more I
28:32produce, the more tasks I do, the more
28:34I deliver, the better I occupied my
28:36time, the more productive I was. But,
28:40man, the other thing is, whose logic is
28:44that? You're producing more for whom?
28:46Because I'm more productive, I open up
28:48more space in my schedule. What do I do
28:49with that? I go to the beach to rest,
28:51no, right? I do more things. So, the
28:54more productive, the more efficient I
28:56am, I end up having more time to work
28:59more.
28:59Yes, all proactivity will be punished.
29:02If you are very proactive, you will
29:03have even more to do.
29:05So,
29:05this time calculation isn't working,
29:07because time has been expropriated,
29:08right? Yes,
29:09this time calculation isn't adding up.
29:11There's a book called Late Capitalism:
29:13The Ends of Sleep. Have you heard of it
29:15?
29:15Yes. It says that the last space to be
29:17occupied is sleep, that it's the last
29:18vestige of our humanity, that we lie
29:20down and sleep. And nobody can
29:21advertise, they're trying, right, a
29:24banner, and there have already been
29:26studies on how to keep people awake,
29:28military studies, right? It starts with
29:30the military, then it comes to society,
29:31how is that, right? What happened was
29:33that it was military and was
29:34distributed to people.
29:36Suspicious,
29:37suspicious, right? Uh, that brings this
29:40here, sleep is the last, our last cry
29:42of humanity. Uh, I think that's super
29:44interesting, man. It's so fragile to
29:46lie down and sleep, right? Because when
29:47you lie down and sleep, you're trusting
29:49in institutions, you're trusting in the
29:50next day, because you can close your
29:52eyes and never wake up again. I think
29:53sleep is a huge obsession. And that's
29:56it. And even now it seems like we're
29:59losing time in our regeneration, in our
30:01health, right? So many people with
30:03insomnia. I've heard a lot of people
30:05say:" No, I only sleep 5 hours a night,
30:07"telling winning stories like that, you
30:09know?"
30:09They cut their hair and post it on
30:11Instagram like this: 'I only sleep 5
30:12hours a night, I wake up, I go to
30:14karate practice, then I do this, I
30:15don't know what...' Saying: 'Damn, I
30:17also wanted to have a butler, right? I
30:19don't know what they do there, a lot of
30:20people do a lot of things, but damn, I
30:22only slept 5 hours a night, man.' No, I
30:23simply don't want that. I want a
30:25victory.
30:26Exactly. I think that's crazy. Your
30:29occupation of time as an obligation and
30:31rest as something that isn't also part
30:34of that time and that time management
30:36and what we're calling productivity. Do
30:39you want to bring up any other points
30:41about that? Yes. I was thinking about
30:44what you said about asking about goals
30:46and strategy, how could I put a
30:48negotiation argument in your head?
30:51Great. I think it works for certain
30:54types of people, certain types of
30:55people in some position. It would be a
30:57manager, I imagine a manager doing that
30:59with a director and negotiating. "It
31:01could be that good, what is the
31:02strategy? What is the goal that we have
31:04to accomplish? We have three things to
31:06choose in the battle, don't we? This
31:08month or this week. But as I said
31:10before, I believe that the person,
31:11while lower, is less free from this
31:13negotiation; less freedom and space
31:14sometimes have to be able to ask what
31:16is the strategy, what is the priority,
31:18because it is expected that everything
31:19that is on the list will be achieved.
31:24That's it, one side; But I find myself
31:26thinking about the theme over time, and
31:28now I can remember a time when I was
31:30working hard, with these projects, time
31:32, and I find myself struggling to sound
31:34contrary, sometimes sounding delivering
31:36, sometimes sounding like facilitating
31:38a meeting. The next day is horrible,
31:43you haven't rested, you're tired; Every
31:45therapy on the subject and the psycho
31:47tried to help me. But I'm wondering:
31:51how many times until the same person is
31:53propiado? O sea, I'm with you in bed,
31:56and do you have to control? They go to
32:00rest, to sound with work, there is no
32:03way, there is no control. I believe the
32:06work we are doing is work that goes to
32:08your house, home office, work invades
32:10the house. And he has had many more
32:12journeys, he has been a mother, he has
32:13had a family, he has been working for
32:15nothing. After 9, 6 hours work 24%. So,
32:19priorities...be good, priorities, work
32:21alone; and the mother has to have the
32:23priority of the child, the food, the
32:25lunch, the washing of the slate. At
32:27home I spend between meetings and
32:29meetings I put on a washing machine and
32:31I have to take out the clothes. I don't
32:33have time to take off my clothes. There
32:34it was again because it was ugly.
32:36happens. So I feel that these solutions
32:39, however beautiful they may be, depend
32:41a lot on the public, depend a lot on
32:43the social class of the person. It's
32:46easy for a CEO to decide that it takes
32:485 hours when he has a network of
32:50support that helps him, but for the
32:51person, the mother who is on the
32:53outskirts, he has to walk 3 hours to
32:55get to his work. I don't believe,
32:58sometimes these tools are good peregoo,
33:03and they are not for everyone; It's not
33:05so easy to apply and that ends up
33:08generating this self-demand of" I can't
33:10wait, if so and so on Instagram can ".
33:14No, your life is different from that
33:16guy on Instagram. I believe there is
33:20sometimes a lack of empathy, too, I
33:21believe, from the companies themselves
33:24or the people who sell tools to decide
33:26that it really applies to everyone. Or
33:28not, I see that these things, these
33:32premises, as Barão brought up,
33:34generally to organize large companies,
33:36I see an attempt to create standards,
33:38because there are many people working,
33:40many people deciding, and then, well,
33:42let's agree on some tools here, because
33:44it won't be possible for everyone to
33:46work in whatever way they want. Yes,
33:49because if you think about it, I
33:51believe that not everyone is able to
33:52work 8 hours a day, five days a week. I
33:54think that after I started my
33:55entrepreneurial journey, my
33:57relationship with time is very strange.
33:58How can I not be working 8 hours a day
34:02uninterruptedly? But it is not as if we
34:04were inside the companies also working
34:06for 8 hours a day without any break at
34:07all. Companies want to believe that.
34:09When you say," No, since I paid you to
34:11stay here for 8 hours, "you won't stop
34:13for a minute. But you can't control an
34:15individual just because they're sitting
34:17in a chair looking at a computer. And
34:19sometimes the best ideas don't come
34:21because I was sitting there too. So it
34:24strikes me that dealing with this
34:26complexity is a great challenge. As a
34:28consultant, sometimes I go to companies
34:30to map tensions and bring this
34:32complexity to the table, and people are
34:35still looking for a root cause, a
34:37single solution that will cover
34:39everything. Yes.
34:40And I understand that's the challenge,
34:41while at the same time not everything
34:42works for everyone. Giant companies
34:45sometimes need to have minimum
34:47boundaries and standards, so we can
34:49continue living our daily lives.
34:53Then I started thinking, Barão, with
34:54this thing about premises, it came to
34:56me, meta-agreements, right? Would it be
34:59better for us to work more on broad
35:01premises about how we're going to
35:03prioritize and manage time here in this
35:05company, rather than thinking that one
35:07mandatory tool or another will solve
35:09everything? Because I see this crisis,
35:11many people want to adopt tools, agile
35:14methodology being one of them. Uh-huh.
35:16People aren't adopting them, people
35:18aren't engaging. And I ask you, for
35:20what reason did you start using these
35:23tools?
35:23What problem were you trying to solve
35:26when you started using these tools? And
35:28people can't explain it to me. Was it
35:30because of a trend, because someone
35:31said so?
35:32So I keep thinking, what is this fine
35:35line you'd
35:36draw that says it's impossible for
35:37everyone to work however they want
35:39within the corporate world,
35:40realistically speaking?
35:43On the other hand, should we focus more
35:45on designing these premises and
35:47meta-agreements rather than thinking
35:49that one tool or another will work for
35:51everyone? I have been working with
35:53leadership, as you mentioned, regarding
35:55the question of who is allowed to
35:57decide or lead? Is this the same
35:59leadership that has an owner's mindset,
36:00wants initiative, and is proactive? And
36:03I have to say:" Wow, but did you guys
36:05really define the goals for this year?
36:08Are you talking to people about it?
36:11Because mental health is often about
36:13knowing what I have to do. I'm like,
36:17mental health is like when we were in
36:19school and we knew that getting a 10
36:21was the big deal. If I get a 10, okay?
36:23It's an agreement, everyone understood,
36:25everyone agreed. Getting a 10 is great.
36:28A 7 is weird, anything below that. No,
36:32are we agreeing on these big numbers,
36:34these big ideas, and ensuring that the
36:37largest number of people understand
36:39them? I keep thinking about whether
36:41different methods can work depending on
36:44the situation. I think there's this
36:46issue of experimentation, thinking that
36:48the case that worked at the company
36:49next door will work here, which is a
36:51big crisis that we'll work on in
36:53another episode of this season, which
36:54is this idea of translating tools from
36:56the global north directly to us. And
36:59then there's this Herculean effort to
37:00deal with it.
37:01So there are tons of tools, but
37:03understanding that experimentation for
37:04me is the key. "The only possible state
37:06in the world we're living in. Nobody
37:08can set a tool in stone and think it
37:10will last forever, prioritize time, and
37:11so on. And then these big agreements
37:14come to mind. If we can't tell if a
37:16tool isn't a silver bullet or if
37:18problems don't have a single cause,
37:20does it make sense to create these big
37:22agreements? Like, what's our perfect 10
37:24? You know? Bigger agreements. And
37:28within that perfect 10, how you're
37:30going to study for the test is your
37:31problem, you understand? But if you get
37:33a 10 at the end, that's fine. And I
37:36know it's challenging because people
37:38say they want people to deliver value,
37:41but they also want to control, right?
37:44They can't just do that. Besides
37:45wanting you to get a 10, I'd like you
37:48to study this way, Mondays, Tuesdays,
37:50and Wednesdays, from 3 to 4 pm. Wow, I
37:53think there's also that challenge in
37:55agreeing, in accepting that a 10 is...
37:5710 and then individuals organize
37:58themselves. Eh, and no, in addition to
38:0110, I want you to organize yourself 10
38:03in the way that I think is correct. I'm
38:06freaking out, guys. Poor people who
38:07hear this later. I'm thinking here that
38:10I had to remember an experience in a
38:12previous company that I was in, I
38:14believe that there was a meta-book like
38:17this that says here everything that we
38:19could do in a timely manner that we
38:21really had to be alive together in a
38:23meeting and that made it easier for me
38:25to create the theme of time management,
38:27because it was as if between everyone
38:30according to that, If I could always
38:32send an email, a functional company was
38:38also very functional. Because I feel
38:40that, in addition to not only managing
38:42time, I'm here for me. now more and
38:45more thinking about the energy
38:46management I put into things because I
38:48have the same twenty-four hours as
38:49everybody else. For the energy that I
38:52put into certain things, it's more or
38:53less, and when it's the 6th of the
38:55afternoon, there...Energy that remains
38:57is very little. energy go to the gym to
39:00study without excess energy, without
39:05excess energy for more. So, in this
39:08company, culture helps a lot so that I
39:11can do something that is important with
39:14less energy. An email, I finished it,
39:17on to the next. But there are cultures
39:19where sometimes the relationship is
39:21also more important and generates value
39:24. O, yo genre valor como sea, seeko la
39:27manera, en locrono, o yo genre valor;
39:29but I have to have a meeting With 10
39:31people, I have to meet in person for 4
39:33hours to create something with them,
39:35because otherwise, it's not there.
39:38Therefore, this generates a large
39:39energy expenditure that, sometimes,
39:41leaves very little and, sometimes, the
39:43delivery could have been equal to the
39:45best. I'm not questioning that, but
39:47it's energy that puts me on things.
39:50There was once a leader who liked me so
39:51much how she betrayed this theme of
39:53hers; no talk about time management,
39:54energy management decision. She said:"
39:58Ponle 20%of things to reach the 80%you
40:00need "and she spends a lot on that line
40:02. I mean, if this can be done by making
40:05a 5-minute video, you send it and
40:07You've achieved your goal, you've made
40:09it easier and shorter. But there are
40:12other cultures where this is not
40:13required. Even more people are
40:15involuting better, even more people are
40:17involucring energy that they have to
40:19put on things in the past when we are
40:21all locked up in the house and then I
40:23feel like my social crash is different
40:25after the pandemic isn't the same as
40:27before. The sea, I go to the workshop
40:30and then I don't have the energy to
40:32deal with people that are much harder
40:33than before the pandemic. So it's not
40:36like you have to manage 8 hours of
40:38managing the energy that you put into
40:40things in one place and you choose that
40:43it's a priority to put more energy in,
40:49but deliver I
40:51decided. Uh, I was listening to one of
40:56your podcasts and I remembered a guy
40:58who said," Look, it seems to me that
41:01when people are interacting, they have
41:04at least three needs that are quite
41:06recurrent, very regular among people
41:09when they interact. One of them is the
41:13need for inclusion, right? But in the
41:16sense of inclusion, of needing to be
41:18included in this, in this experience
41:20I'm seeing. So, maybe control is partly
41:24the desire or this need to be included
41:28in this. It's
41:30not malicious. I also sometimes think,
41:31'Oh, because so-and-so is controlling,
41:33man.' I don't think that's malicious.
41:36That's
41:36how so-and-so is,
41:39you know? And that's one of the things.
41:42The other thing is a need for
41:45predictability of what will happen. So
41:50we came to record the podcast with you.
41:53In some way, the three of us, at
41:55different levels or with different
41:58expressions, wanted to be sure of what
42:00was going to happen. Uh-huh.
42:02Right? So this need for predictability
42:05is present in the relationship, and the
42:07people...Interaction, right? And people
42:09deal with it differently. And a third
42:11thing is what he calls ontological
42:14security, which is what? The need I
42:17have that what I believe to be true, in
42:19fact, truly exists. So I want you to
42:22confirm it for me. Look at that, right?
42:25The girl is in a wooden chair here,
42:27right? Colorful, isn't she, Lorena?
42:30She's not in a colorful wooden chair.
42:33So, her pants aren't red, right? So it
42:36seems that we have a constant need to
42:39confirm everything that we perceive all
42:41of the time. So these needs are
42:44expressed in very different ways.
42:47That's why when we're talking about
42:49time management or productivity, right,
42:51or prioritization, people will deal
42:53with it in very different ways too,
42:55right? Uh, I forgot the first part I
42:58asked about.
42:59Meta-agreements. Yes, meta-agreements
43:01like that, it will be possible to
43:03customize everything for huge companies
43:04, which is the challenge that companies
43:05face.
43:06It's good. So, I think the thing about
43:09agreements, it's very...that's why I I
43:11remembered the three needs because it
43:13relates to that. Making agreements,
43:16trusting agreements, but also making
43:18more reliable agreements
43:21is a way of dealing with these three
43:23needs, right? So, I know what's going
43:25to happen. I'm being included because
43:28I'm agreeing, and things are as we
43:30think they are, right? Everyone agrees
43:34that this is the reality. But
43:36ultimately, what I think can happen
43:39more in organizations is that we have
43:41more space to discuss the assumptions
43:44that are currently in place, right? For
43:47example, I could adopt the assumption
43:49that time is fragmentable into small
43:52pieces that we are able to manage by
43:54using the concept of a time box. So now
43:58I'm going to divide my time into 37
44:00parts of the day where I'm going to do
44:02various things,
44:0337 things. That's an assumption. But
44:06there are people like Bergson, whom I
44:08mentioned, who believe it's part of
44:10another assumption, that time is a
44:12continuous flow. So, more important
44:14than chronological time is duration,
44:16which is what Lori talked about. That's
44:18it. My work time is the same, but my
44:21energy is the same as it was back there
44:24, that is, exhausted, zero. My energy
44:27ran out back there, it doesn't
44:28replenish. Like, in a rupture, right?
44:31In the rupture series. I don't leave
44:33work, I'm just chilling, I'm feeling
44:36awful, I am so pissed off with life,
44:39I'm tired, I don't even know what's
44:41going on. Why? Because it's the
44:43duration of the experience, right? So
44:45I'm starting from another premise, that
44:47time is not fragmentable, time is a
44:49continuous flow that passes through us.
44:52So, for me, to have space for us to
44:54discuss assumptions, not to plan them,
44:56to define them. Look, let's all start
44:59from the belief that people are good
45:01and are born good and so on. No, it's
45:04not something we can plan, but we
45:06should discuss it. Look, what we're
45:08creating together here seems to come
45:10from, what assumption, right? This
45:12control over the workday, which Do the
45:15assumptions seem to make this possible
45:18and desirable? And the other thing we
45:20should discuss is the implications. I
45:23see that we don't discuss them. Let's
45:25adopt Agile. It already starts off a
45:27bit crooked, right? Let's adopt it.
45:29What is Agile? How do you adopt it,
45:32right? You adopt it, what does adopting
45:34mean? It's grafting on a cascading
45:37effect. Cascading is also
45:39cascading, and so on. These are
45:41metaphors that don't require much
45:42thought. So we don't even discuss the
45:44premises, right? Or the assumptions.
45:48The assumption is that what worked at
45:50Spotify will work for me. That's the
45:51assumption. It's
45:52from Google. I can question that
45:54assumption. And the other thing is the
45:56implications. Oh, people are getting
45:58sicker. Ah, but then let's give yoga
46:00instead of changing the management
46:01model. Wait a minute. When are we going
46:04to talk about the implications of the
46:06decisions we make? We're talking about
46:09goals, about strategy, but when are we
46:11going to discuss the direct
46:12implications? Indirectly, right, from
46:15these decisions we've made? There is no
46:18room for that in daily organizational
46:19life. Those
46:21who create the goals or rules think
46:23it's common sense or a general
46:25understanding, a general acceptance,
46:28that it should be what they think it is
46:30for everyone.
46:33And that's where the various
46:34communication failures begin, because
46:35everyone interprets it according to
46:37their own point of view. And this idea
46:39of having space to combine these things
46:41seems very useful to me, because it
46:43brings up the cultural issue. What's
46:46normal in Brazil might not be
46:47considered normal in another Latin
46:49American country, for example. Some
46:53constitutions have included Bwen Bibir
46:55as part of the Constitution, which is
46:57an indigenous idea, that incorporates
46:59other assumptions about how we deal
47:02with nature, how we deal with each
47:04other, how we deal with time itself.
47:08And sometimes people are so convinced
47:10that time is what they think it is.
47:15When you present another way of
47:16organizing time, another way of being
47:18in the world, this discussion now,
47:19right, about the end of the scale...For
47:21example, a 6x1 work week, when you
47:23change that schedule, they
47:24automatically think: "Oh no, if you
47:26reduce the hours, you reduce
47:27productivity." And productivity isn't
47:30just about hours, as it's measured in
47:32the world; it's about the population's
47:34educational level, it's about the
47:36country's level of technological
47:37development. Then there are other
47:40premises regarding what we call
47:41development, which is another topic
47:43that we will work on here as well,
47:45which is: what exactly is development?
47:47Because for me, the highest technology
47:48is eating a mango that tastes like
47:50mango,
47:50eating rice and beans every day, you
47:52know? I find this discussion very
47:54interesting, for example, about
47:55artificial intelligence, which brings
47:57this to the forefront, because
47:58artificial intelligence doesn't emerge
47:59in a vacuum, it depends on minerals, it
48:01depends on land. So,
48:03what are these premises of what we're
48:05calling technological, or what we're
48:07talking about as a good use of time, or
48:09what we're calling priorities? I'm
48:12really fascinated by this whole thing,
48:14like practically recombining how we
48:16exist in the world to then manage...
48:18Time is possible, a priority can happen
48:21, you know?
48:23Want to see something that challenges
48:24this idea of time we're talking about,
48:26a
48:27tiny assumption, but if we put it on
48:30the table, things will get messed up.
48:33The idea that time is an infinite
48:35resource. Someone was talking, I was
48:38reading, the person calculated that on
48:41average we have 14,000 weeks in life,
48:43something like that. So it's a finite
48:46resource. If you know from now on that
48:50you have 14,000 weeks on average, what
48:52are you going to do with your weeks?
48:55Because the way we deal with it in our
48:57daily lives, it seems like time is an
48:59infinite resource.
49:00That Lorena said: "You don't have to do
49:01everything." What is the priority? So,
49:02you have to dedicate yourself, you
49:04sleep 5 hours a night. No, but I'm
49:05going to work on the weekend, schedule
49:07it, but just a crunch here, right? Like
49:10, let's get through this valley here
49:12and we deliver the sprint and then...
49:15Okay. That's when we relax a bit. But
49:18if I assume that time in my life is
49:21finite, damn, then the whole story
49:24starts to become something else
49:26entirely. I'm
49:27selling something
49:30finite, and often people are stealing
49:32that something I didn't sell, right?
49:34When people message me at 10 pm wanting
49:37me to reply, that person is stealing
49:39something finite from me, and I don't
49:41want it stolen, right? I see that this
49:44time crisis, along with the midlife
49:46crisis, hit me hard, making me realize
49:48that time is finite, and I'm not going
49:49to do just anything with the time I
49:51have. But that's it, I have more
49:53choices nowadays because of the
49:55privileges I've gained by becoming an
49:57entrepreneur. Some people say, "Oh,
49:58becoming an entrepreneur means working
50:00even harder than before." I said, "
50:01Honey, if it means working harder than
50:02before, find me a job. I'm not going to
50:04work harder than before.""The real joy,
50:05the real joy, is making money. Yes, but
50:07the real joy for me is a friend going
50:09on vacation, and me going on vacation
50:10too. I find joy in doing that. The real
50:13joy is that next week there are two
50:14vacations in Rio de Janeiro, and I'm
50:15going to stay there the whole week
50:16because I want to take advantage of it
50:18since we don't have those two here. So,
50:19for me, there are other incredibly rich
50:21joys, right? Of course, that's it.
50:23People who are in companies won't be
50:25able to do that, but it exists. I think
50:27it's important to know that it exists
50:28because it seems like there's only one
50:29time for everyone. We're starting to
50:31get to the end of our conversation here
50:33. I wanted to know if Lorena wants to
50:34bring up any more points about this
50:36discussion, otherwise I have a question
50:37to ask you. No, I was remembering an
50:39experience with agility that I had at a
50:41company where we got into the idea and,
50:43well, I got in; a friend, a colleague,
50:45and I brought up the issue of agility.
50:47I was in..." la moda y la jefa: "yes,
50:50let's do it". We bought courses and we
50:53all started the course and let's start
50:54working agile and these things,
50:55experimentation. At first, everyone was
50:58excited. At the time that the director
51:02understood, the director understood the
51:05assumptions and implications that she
51:07had that she enchanted every day with
51:09that character: "Come on, so-and-so,
51:11come on, ask me to kill you, fashion
51:13planning." And you won't be able to
51:17apply it, wait. I believe that
51:20sometimes we come into these tools like
51:22"ah, this is what is going to solve our
51:24life, the life of everyone here", but
51:25it means that we have to change habits.
51:28How are you, good, if you are going to
51:29work, it means that she had to open the
51:31agenda and decide "good, It is
51:32important for this week. She maintained
51:35strict control over her own affairs and
51:37would not open her schedule to us, but
51:39at the same time, she had this habit of
51:41causing fires that we were forced to
51:42extinguish every single day, you see?
51:45And when it comes to changing her way
51:47of leading, not everyone is necessarily
51:49on board with that, and so those tools
51:51eventually end up dying out. I walk
51:54this way, because it implies that the
51:57person has to change their way of doing
52:00things that is deeply rooted in their
52:03persona, I come with the intention of
52:06starting with agility that people don't
52:09realize that a change in behavior will
52:12also be necessary. Something like when
52:16I put up a board with tasks so that
52:18everyone can see somewhere, explaining
52:26to people what is happening, a cultural
52:29change that in thinking it was just one
52:32. herramienta. But certainties, explain
52:42, I mean, people. I think they realize
52:47that there are many hidden gains that
52:48they lose at that moment, that tool
52:55takes away, and they don't realize that
52:57if I do this, I'm going to lose this,
53:00and this is important to me, to be able
53:02to
53:03admit, right, that this is important.
53:04Hidden gain is hard to admit.
53:06Something in self-management, when we
53:08live in self-management, we make that
53:10move of disclosing everyone's salary.
53:11Wow, we're crying, but in reality it's
53:13not the coolest thing. It's cool. But
53:16then when we disclose the salary,
53:17everyone is like," No, but damn,
53:19they're going to disclose my salary, I
53:20don't know what, I'm going to get a
53:22raise. Everyone will know I got a raise
53:24. "So, look at the implications, the
53:26assumptions. Who is, who feels
53:28comfortable talking about money? When I
53:30worked in a self-managed company, women
53:32and Black people had a lot of
53:33difficulty in that meeting talking
53:35about the money they deserved to earn.
53:37More or less, or get into negotiating
53:39money. So, one of the criticisms I have
53:41, including regarding self-management,
53:43is this assumption that people will
53:44arrive there, talk about their tensions
53:46, and talk about money. I was crazy, I
53:48was like that because," I have this
53:49person, love, I'm going to talk, I'm
53:51going to talk, love, my dream is to
53:52talk about money. "I found the meeting
53:54about money very emotional, and other
53:55people left crying because they hadn't
53:57been able to talk about it. So, I think
53:59there are these specificities, and I
54:01think there's a phrase I learned from
54:03Mariana Zaparoli, I don't know if it's
54:06hers, but it's" practices stimulate
54:08behaviors. "Many times companies don't
54:10realize that adopting practices will
54:12stimulate other behaviors, and you have
54:14to see carefully if that's what you
54:16want. On the other hand, yes, if you
54:19want to change a behavior or try new
54:21things, maybe you have to think about
54:23new practices. That's
54:25it. And so, looking at this, I wanted
54:27to know from you, there could be two
54:29ways for us to end our episode today.
54:32One, is, was there any improvisation,
54:33any What kind of makeshift solution did
54:35you guys use, which wasn't really a
54:37tool, my love, but did it solve the
54:38problem that existed, for example?
54:41Because I see that when we talk about
54:42methodologies from the United States,
54:44from Europe, we call it experimentation
54:45, hypothesis testing, MVP. Uh-huh.
54:48And a makeshift solution isn't a
54:50minimum viable product, right? It's not
54:52an improvisation, it's not
54:54experimentation, right? I keep
54:56questioning myself about this. Is there
54:58any makeshift solution, anything that
54:59you think was really cool when it
55:01happened? If not, don't think of any
55:03right now. I wish you could offer me
55:05some of that kind of advice; I wish so
55:07much that someone had told me that.
55:10I've heard a lot of advice, especially
55:12from Baron, like, when I met Baron, it
55:13was like, it broke through a lot of
55:15things in my head, because I thought
55:16things, but you think you're crazy,
55:18right? Then you hear another person
55:21managing to pay the bills and saying
55:22things like, wow, how good that someone
55:24told me that. It either validated
55:26something I was thinking or helped me
55:28organize a thought I had. So, it's open
55:31for you all, starting with Lorena,
55:33either a makeshift solution you think
55:34worked, something you improvised and
55:36solved, or a piece of advice you say:"
55:38Look, I really wish someone had given
55:39me this advance, "and feel free to
55:41share." O, I believe that hubiese dear
55:45that someone, before, came to me when
55:47they were Brazilians, it was the
55:49Brazilian culture in these small things
55:51that one learns, not necessarily for
55:53the good times, noting here. But I
55:56believe, despite not having that advice
55:59, in these 11 years that I have lived
56:01here in Brazil, workers from Latin
56:07America with migrants, at the beginning
56:11, I remember that they went through
56:13several difficulties because they
56:15believed what was going on among
56:16Brazilians at the beginning, as Latinas
56:18, for example, not because we're going
56:20like this, we're going to agree like
56:21this, we're going to make an
56:23appointment, let's see, and nothing
56:24happens because we're Brazilians to see
56:29it and we're not capable of, then,
56:35understanding anything. y don't want me
56:42to fall I don't understand, I lack good
56:45intent, but all are tired, there is no
56:48energy. It is not hard to grasp, and I
56:57think that steals energy from this. A
57:02very here, very Brazilian phrase, which
57:04is when something medium as rare comes
57:06to you and says: "No, that ball arrived
57:08square in spit." At the beginning that
57:13the ball means that and then I
57:18understand that in these contexts that
57:23are common the time to round that ball
57:28to be able to play with it. behind,
57:34what the person is saying when he says:
57:35"I don't want it", but the truth, in
57:37the background, I don't want it, but I
57:39won't tell you that I can't, I don't
57:40have an experience that you had, one of
57:42the companies that I work for, after a
57:44lot of time here, it was a
57:45multinational company and has a team in
57:47Brazil, but I have a team in Brazil.
57:50worked with Argentine teams, United
57:51States, Colombia, countries, and the
57:53bosses are in Argentina. Then, it
57:56seemed very funny to me, because the
57:57Argentines came to quejarse from the
57:58Brazilians, the Brazilians came with me
58:00to quejase from the Argentines. A
58:03moment that I found in the medium and I
58:06stopped giving them advice: "No, you
58:07look at the Argentinean, Brazilian, you
58:09have to talk like that", and I was
58:11translating, and on the contrary, the
58:13same: "it's decent frontal, so you have
58:15to deal with it in this way". Suddenly
58:20I was on the bridge between Argentine
58:22Brazilians due to the issue of
58:25difficult communication, because
58:27Argentines tell me that if I don't do
58:30anything, that's how it works with
58:32mental salt to understand depending on
58:40the states. Brazil, a continent, so not
58:43necessarily all In São Paulo, that's
58:46how it works in the states. And you and
58:49you don't, I remembered a case I
58:51experienced. I was at a client's doing
58:54a design sprint, a cultural design
58:57sprint, and we were working with
58:59culture. There were several groups,
59:01right, raising hypotheses about culture
59:03, creating projects, and so on. And one
59:06group did something very simple that
59:08had to do with time, that had to do
59:09with prioritization. And I remembered
59:12that, that case, right? They created a
59:15super ugly artifact, as a prototype
59:17should be, right? And they said, "Our
59:21team is a team that puts out fires all
59:23the time.""But sometimes people don't
59:27know that we're putting out fires, and
59:29they just keep doing their normal jobs,
59:31unaware that there's a fire somewhere
59:33that we need to mobilize for, a small
59:35company, right?
59:37Uh-huh.
59:38And then we were like, 'Okay, what can
59:39you do?' They created a fire alarm
59:43scale
59:43with little flames, little
59:45flames and stuff, they drew something
59:48and stuck it on the wall. So, every
59:51week they updated it, and then they
59:54agreed with everyone, right? They said,
59:57'Look, when you pass by here, where the
59:59coffee shop is, you'll see the fire
1:00:02alarm scale, and you'll see where the
1:00:04fire is.' And this will give you
1:00:07information so you can mobilize in a
1:00:08different way, if you want and can,
1:00:10right? And I even told them, 'Hey, cool
1:00:13, but put some sticky notes next to it
1:00:15so people can leave feedback on the
1:00:17device too, right? How do you...'" You
1:00:19guys can improve this and stuff. So, it
1:00:20was a cool experiment. But what insight
1:00:22does this give me? If I had brought
1:00:27them a framework, a methodology, or a
1:00:29tool and said, "Use this tool for
1:00:32visibility and prioritization and so on
1:00:34," they might have responded, "Oh,
1:00:37that's cool, thanks, let us try it."
1:00:42But they created something with their
1:00:44own language, their own aesthetics,
1:00:46their own humor, which I think humor is
1:00:48very powerful at that moment, right?
1:00:51It's for Brazilians. So, yeah, laughing
1:00:53while we created something with their
1:00:55own style that I still use in my
1:00:57classes today, this artifact to
1:00:59show to the group, right? An example of
1:01:02a prototype. So, for me, this was a
1:01:04cool thing, like, they discussed
1:01:06assumptions together, discussed
1:01:08implications, discussed something very
1:01:11important that you said, which is what
1:01:13are the stimuli that people have in
1:01:15their daily lives to behave the way
1:01:17they behave. I get pissed that the guy
1:01:21from finance went there to do what he
1:01:23had to do and didn't help me. "To solve
1:01:26my problem. But did he know about the
1:01:28problem?
1:01:29Yes. Oh, Fano doesn't want to help me
1:01:31with my goal. But he didn't even know
1:01:32that goal existed. When I create an
1:01:34artifact, for example, a visual one
1:01:37like this, I generate a different
1:01:39stimulus that allows people to behave
1:01:42differently, to react to it differently
1:01:45. So, for me, if we don't discuss the
1:01:47stimuli that are in place, the
1:01:48incentives, some of which are quite
1:01:50perverse, and if we don't discuss the
1:01:52stimuli, we don't discuss the
1:01:54assumptions, we don't discuss the
1:01:56implications, things won't change. And
1:01:58then something I heard Lour say, a
1:02:01phrase that's more common here in
1:02:04Brazil, in the equivalent system in
1:02:07Venezuela, is: what Peter says about
1:02:10Paul says more about Peter than about
1:02:13Paul, right?
1:02:14Uh-huh. For me, that phrase liberated
1:02:16me when I learned it, because I was
1:02:21still an HR professional and I used to
1:02:22get very worried when people said: 'Wow
1:02:24, you don't look like...'""Of ragar,
1:02:26man? You say some crazy things that
1:02:29don't sound like ragar, how do I say
1:02:31something like that?" When I saw that
1:02:33phrase, I said, "Damn, that's it, right
1:02:35?""People are talking about her, she's
1:02:37not talking about me." Uh-huh.
1:02:38So, I think one thing I wish I had
1:02:41heard before,
1:02:43to feel more relaxed, to experience my
1:02:45time with more quality, you know, with
1:02:47more openness, with more lightness, is
1:02:49that when people tell me something,
1:02:51they're talking about themselves.
1:02:53They're not talking about me. Uh-huh.
1:02:55It's much less about me. I'm the least
1:02:58relevant part when someone says
1:03:00something to me. They're talking about
1:03:02themselves, right? And knowing that
1:03:04beforehand, I think, would help me a
1:03:05lot to make better use of my time.
1:03:07Very good, I learned a lot. Thanks
1:03:11again. I'm very happy to have you here
1:03:15with me. I hope that at home you also
1:03:19enjoy this conversation very much and
1:03:22that you learn as much as I did. I
1:03:24think these conversations are very rich
1:03:26. I have many insights from
1:03:29conversations with people that no tool
1:03:31has taught me, and the experience of
1:03:34others living their lives has often
1:03:36taught me more about time management
1:03:38than a tool. You are inspiring people
1:03:41to me, the way you live or the issues
1:03:43you address. You make me see things and
1:03:45think in different ways. I hope that
1:03:47those who are at home have also had
1:03:49insights, and if they have, these
1:03:51things will go to platforms. You
1:03:53comment on YouTube, for example, you
1:03:55comment on Spotify, it'll be on the
1:03:56internet, you want to leave your
1:03:58contacts, you're all offline. If people
1:04:00are offline, I'm against it, I'm
1:04:02against it. On LinkedIn they are,
1:04:04people. We are not, we have to pull
1:04:06them out of their house and put them in
1:04:07a chair to say something. So, take
1:04:10advantage of the fact that they opened
1:04:12their mouths, if you want you can go
1:04:13after them on the internet, but you can
1:04:15come after me. And thank you for
1:04:17staying with us until now.

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