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Geesecast #10 - Henry Wallis — Transcript

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0:07Hello everyone. Welcome to another
0:08episode of Geesecast. I'm your host Eday
0:11and today I'm here with Nick M, Kalia L,
0:14and guest starring Henry Wallace. So,
0:16thanks for coming on Henry.
0:18>> Thank you for having me.
0:19>> Of course. So, for the folks watching,
0:22why don't you give a little bit about
0:25yourself to let people know who you are.
0:29>> So, I'm Henry Wallace and I'm an
0:30American communist living in France. I
0:33have
0:34a
0:35certain experience in the radical left
0:38and I am the founding editor of New
0:41International Magazine, newintermag.com.
0:45I also am the host of the Forms podcast,
0:47formspodcast.com.
0:49And I'm on Twitter at @HenryJKWallace.
0:53You can follow me there.
0:57>> Awesome. So, uh why don't we talk a
1:01little bit about what's going on with
1:03the situation in France right now?
1:05Uh maybe there's folks again watching
1:07who aren't really aware of what's going
1:09on. So, do you want to give a brief
1:11description of what's been happening?
1:13>> Yeah. So, the let's pull back to the
1:17general situation and then zoom in to
1:19the last few days if you don't mind.
1:21>> Sure.
1:22>> The general situation is the climax, one
1:25might say, or at least the the current
1:27height of the crisis of neoliberalism
1:30which began
1:31during the financial crisis of the late
1:342000s
1:35where Donald Trump has basically
1:38announced to the world that the era of,
1:41you know, free markets is over
1:44and a time of crisis and mercantilism
1:48and general
1:51is extremely violent rent seeking and
1:53profiteering is here to stay.
1:55And this has immediately come to a head
1:57with the the war in Iran and the crisis
2:00over fuel prices. About a month ago,
2:03French fishermen took to the ports of
2:05Toulon,
2:06Fos, Frontignan,
2:09Nice,
2:10and were blockading
2:13petrol depots
2:15protesting the the the the extremely
2:17high and rising cost of fuel, which made
2:20it impossible for them to continue their
2:22their line of work in a profitable
2:24manner.
2:25The government the French government, I
2:26mean, quickly
2:28took the position that
2:30"Well, we have nothing to do with this
2:32war in the Middle East, and we're going
2:33to try to give you some concessions and
2:35help you out and tamp down the
2:37uprising." My friends over at the French
2:40presidential elections pod- podcast Ali
2:42Hines and Martin and Marlon Ettinger put
2:45it very well when they said that Macron
2:48is terrified of a return of the yellow
2:51vests. He's haunted by the yellow vests.
2:53And so the current government led by Le
2:56Cornu under the direction of Macron
2:59really tried to appease the fishermen.
3:02However,
3:04at the same time they're trying to
3:05appease the fishermen, they have a
3:07serious debt crisis that they're trying
3:10to, quote unquote, handle through more
3:13austerity, specifically with more than
3:1540 million euros of cuts,
3:18specifically significant cuts in the
3:20education sector.
3:22And the education sector had already
3:24been pillaged by Macron's decade of
3:27neoliberal rule.
3:30The students, specifically the high
3:31school students,
3:33said we can't to stand it anymore. In
3:36France, I don't think this really exists
3:38in the United States, correct me if I'm
3:39wrong, there is a fairly strong high
3:42school
3:43student union movement that exists with
3:45multiple high school student unions, and
3:47so several of these high school student
3:49unions called for days of action,
3:52notably blockading their high school,
3:55preventing people from physically
3:57entering the high school in order to
3:59make high school not happen.
4:01This began
4:03and now I suppose it'd be several weeks
4:04ago this wave began.
4:07And quickly university students jumped
4:10in as well as
4:12more radical sections of the
4:15French trade union movement
4:18as well as other you know forces of
4:20civil society
4:22as well as a sort of remainder of yellow
4:25vests which are still active have all
4:27come out
4:29in what the government put fearfully as
4:31a convergence of struggles.
4:33So for for example this morning I
4:36watched the interview with Francis Top
4:38Cop the interior minister Nunez
4:42say that you know yesterday he gave his
4:46he offered his resignation to president
4:48which was refused and when pressed about
4:51why we had this breakout
4:54the last few days of you know widespread
4:57social contestation that spilled over
4:59into some acts of violence as well. Um
5:02in terms of well I I suppose I shouldn't
5:05say it spilled over. Let me let me
5:06restate that.
5:08And let me back up. I'll finish what he
5:10said. He said that the fact that
5:13the student protesters and all of these
5:15organized protesters were out at the
5:18same time that the the sheer level of
5:21the social mobilization of hundreds and
5:23hundreds of thousands more people than
5:25anticipated coming out Saturday for the
5:27last big day of action. This created a
5:29situation which the French police the
5:33gendarme etc. were not capable of
5:35containing the situation.
5:37So if you've seen the pictures of quote
5:40unquote chaos and blah blah blah that's
5:42what this is all due to is basically
5:45Macron's government
5:47created a crisis
5:49poured fuel on the fire by mutilating
5:51students having a really heavy police
5:53repression against the students.
5:55Uh about a week ago if I'm not mistaken
5:58it might be two weeks ago Jean-Luc
6:00Mélenchon made a statement
6:02the leader of the French left of the the
6:04French the France Unbowed movement
6:06saying that adults, parents, and you
6:09know, elected officials of his
6:11movement should come out and wear a
6:13white armband or a white helmet and put
6:16themselves in between the high school
6:18students and the police because the
6:20police were being so violent to the In
6:22many cases, these are minors. These are
6:24children we're talking about getting
6:25like hands blown off and you know, being
6:28bludgeoned and beaten and all these
6:30things and arrested in great numbers.
6:32We're talking about thousands and
6:33thousands of arrests.
6:35Um and we're also talking about hundreds
6:36and hundreds of police injured. I think
6:39I saw something today about six or 700
6:41police were injured in recent clashes
6:44with demonstrators.
6:46So we really have a situation in which
6:48the crisis of Macron's neoliberal
6:50government is is coming to a head. The
6:54French public supports the protests.
6:56When you have this many people on the
6:57street and when you have a a police
7:00response that is this violent, it's no
7:02surprise that there is a fire and
7:05looting and you know, people throwing
7:07stones at the police. It's a it's a
7:10completely predictable situation. And
7:12you know, today I saw several mayors I
7:15saw the mayor of Lyon, the mayor of
7:17Marseille who are sort of nominally
7:19left-wing figures
7:22really complaining about the police
7:24response and the fact that
7:27basically the worst of all possible
7:29outcomes for them occurred, which is the
7:31police failed to protect
7:33public buildings, businesses, etc. And
7:36also a lot of people were maimed and
7:38harmed.
7:39Including I saw footage of someone who I
7:41believe was actually lynched and killed
7:44by police yesterday. I saw this on
7:46social media. I haven't confirmed that
7:48this specific individual is actually
7:50dead. It's hard to confirm these things,
7:52but I'm I I've seen enough to believe
7:55that this medic who was, you know, there
7:58acting as a kind of
8:01an agent of peace and of healing for
8:03those being harmed during the
8:04demonstration was like dragged to the
8:06ground violently and you know multiple
8:09police all over him.
8:10>> Just to briefly comment on the the
8:13picture you painted for us.
8:15Uh I had heard that I don't know how
8:17true this is. I'd heard that they were
8:19expecting or rather there was like a
8:21record number of 150,000 people being in
8:25some part of
8:26of France and they actually estimated
8:31there was about 400,000. So it was like
8:33a huge huge record turnout of like
8:36protesters. Uh do you feel that uh
8:40the How is the vibe on the ground I
8:43suppose with with regards to the general
8:45public like uh I know a lot of people
8:47have uh you know obvious uh what's the
8:51term I'm looking for? Opposition to how
8:55violent a lot of the the
8:57uh police can be to protesters and how
8:59protesters can also you know break stuff
9:02and and [ __ ] like that. Do you feel like
9:05that is being overlooked like the the
9:07the crisis is coming to such a head that
9:10the public is
9:12uh even endorsing
9:13uh going as far as that?
9:16>> Well let me let me take one step back
9:17because I tried to do the context but
9:19it's hard because there's so much
9:21context to give you. Let me just take
9:22one more step back.
9:24>> Please.
9:24>> So if we think about what's happened
9:27in the last few years.
9:29The situation is that Emmanuel Macron
9:31has completely lost his legitimacy and
9:34mandate. In the 2024 legislative
9:36elections he did not win. He did not
9:38come in first. He used the superpower of
9:42the French presidency to force through a
9:45series of very unstable coalition
9:48governments between the center and the
9:49right with the complicity of the center
9:52left and the far right which have fallen
9:54in succession.
9:56For example there was uh the government
9:57of Barnier and then Bayrou and now we
10:01have Lecornu all following 2024. It's
10:03three different governments.
10:06Last year there was at around this time
10:08um a social movement called uh, block
10:10everything, which was very similar to
10:13the yellow vests in strategy.
10:15I think we can see today that there has
10:17been an evolution of the social conflict
10:20such that the the, um,
10:22yellow vest style autonomous block
10:25logistical blockade has not been
10:28thrown away as a tactic or as a
10:30strategy, but has been combined in a
10:32convergence of struggle along with trade
10:34unionists, uh,
10:36high school students, university
10:38students, et cetera, such that the level
10:41of street contestation is much harder to
10:43contain. Just like that's an empirical
10:45fact. We all saw the pictures of what
10:47occurred. They were not able to
10:49maintain control of the situation.
10:52We also have a situation in which,
10:54because Macron has no legitimacy, he has
10:57this kind of like clown show of figures
10:59rotating in and out, and there is just
11:01it's a sort of Trumpian incompetence as
11:03well. Like, the fact that they only
11:05left, I believe, one brigade of riot
11:07police in Marseille explains why the
11:11shopping mall in the
11:13the very dead center of town was looted
11:15for like hours and hours and hours and
11:17hours. Why looting continued yesterday,
11:20and I believe there's even been looting
11:22today, right? Like,
11:24they have no ability to actually control
11:26the the territory or to dominate the the
11:29zone or whatever.
11:30So, that's all context for why this is
11:32happening. I think it we also need to
11:34take a step one final step back and
11:37think about the condition of the the
11:39working class and all really just the
11:41common people of this country.
11:43A few, uh, actually last month I was
11:45doing an event with some France Unbowed
11:48comrades in a project, uh,
11:50where, you know,
11:53poor people live.
11:55And, uh, we brought like a bounce bounce
11:57house for the kids, you know, like a
11:58bounce castle, and we brought like a
12:00barbecue and making, you know, uh,
12:03merguez sausages and like Belgian
12:05waffles and stuff like this. And just
12:07basically giving the people
12:09a big party on the block, a big block
12:11party. And we had one of our, you know,
12:13elected there, one of our deputies in
12:15the National Assembly talking to poor
12:17people. And I remember distinctly him
12:19standing in front of this abandoned
12:21like social center that had been burned
12:23down or bombed out or somehow and gone
12:26derelict talking to this high school kid
12:28about how rough the situation the school
12:31was. There's like water in the school.
12:33They ain't got no English teacher. So,
12:35when they go to do their final exams and
12:37try to like prepare to go to college,
12:39they can't even
12:40do the test right cuz they don't got
12:41enough teachers. You see what I mean?
12:43They had this whole
12:45He had this whole series of like
12:47arguments. And the deputy was sitting
12:48there talking to the kid, listening to
12:50him like, you know,
12:51"You get involved in a student union."
12:53He's like, "Oh, we don't got one." Well,
12:54you set one up, you know, and just
12:56walking him through like
12:57how to actually struggle in the school
13:00from a pretty young age, you know, this
13:01kid was maybe in US terms he'd be like a
13:04freshman or sophomore in high school
13:05getting involved in serious politics.
13:08And I'm telling you, when I was out
13:10there, we were serving people, we were,
13:12you know, meeting people where they was
13:14at, and
13:16there's a difference, look, I don't know
13:17if you all are parents, I'm a parent.
13:19There's a difference between kids being
13:21impatient and kids being real hungry.
13:24And a lot of the kids coming to get
13:25sausages were real hungry.
13:28You know? And I'm not saying that their
13:29parents didn't do right or that they
13:31were like, you know, I'm not saying that
13:32this was like a famine, but it's clear
13:34to me that a lot of people in this
13:36country at this time are choosing
13:37between filling up the gas tank and
13:39filling up the grocery cart.
13:41And so, when you see folks going in,
13:43like why did they loot a grocery store?
13:46And then you saw a hooded figure going
13:48around and passing out sanitary pads to
13:51women passing by. Why did he do that?
13:53Cuz he knows people ain't got their
13:55their pads.
13:57You know?
13:58And the situa- the level of of the level
14:00of immiseration and suffering is really
14:04in certain parts of the country is quite
14:06pronounced. And look, France is a
14:09country with a traditional protest.
14:11It's very obvious to see why is this
14:13occurring. You know, there's not there's
14:15no like mystery to to to people here as
14:18to why this is going on. The Macron
14:20government has no legitimacy. It's
14:22barely holding on by a thread, and it's
14:24continuing to push austerity,
14:26supply-side neoliberal [ __ ] down
14:29people's throats when it's been rejected
14:31democratically repeatedly, right? And
14:34we're preparing for presidential
14:35election in 6 months.
14:37And people still want to run him out.
14:39People are still in the streets saying,
14:40"Macron resign." Or they're saying worse
14:42things I'm not going to say uh on air
14:45with you today, but I mean, I saw people
14:47walking around with a mock guillotine.
14:50You know what I'm saying? Like people
14:51were
14:52very serious. And uh that anger, that
14:55social unrest is not
14:59I mean, I would hope that readers of
15:00Geese and listeners to this podcast
15:02would would be able to to hear in what
15:04I'm saying the resonances of social
15:06struggles that have been cycling and
15:08echoing and waving for decades at this
15:10point.
15:11>> Um yeah, so if you glance at like the
15:13the American uh news about what's
15:16happening in France,
15:18um I think what you get is
15:21a a scene in which there's massive, you
15:25know, rioting in the streets,
15:27uh possibly
15:29um
15:30you know, exacerbated by outside
15:32agitators or whatever, right? Um
15:35uh but clearly there's something major
15:36going on, disorder.
15:38Uh and then there is, okay,
15:41which political party or political
15:43leader is with the protests and which
15:46one is not.
15:48Um and so you get this media portrayal
15:51of someone like Mélenchon who
15:53is with disorder.
15:55Um and sort of is opportunistically
15:58riding the coattails of the protest, and
16:00then you have the party of order
16:02represented by Macron. Basically, my
16:03question is like, in the US we see this
16:07this portrayal in the media of unrest
16:10and disorder and chaos in the streets,
16:12and that is being kind of associated
16:14with Mélenchon's political party, France
16:16Unbowed.
16:17Um he's sort of
16:20portrayed, I think, as this opportunist
16:22riding the coattails of this protest.
16:24Um on the side of disorder. And then on
16:27the side of order, we have Macron and Le
16:29Courneau and this sort of milieu.
16:32Um and that's I think that's more or
16:34less the simplistic I mean, you don't
16:35even get what the demands of the
16:37protests are or what the the proximate
16:40causes of the protest are. You don't
16:42even really get that. I mean, I had to
16:43read a few articles to get to like the
16:45most
16:46basic like, "Okay, there's a problem
16:48with the schools and and cost of
16:49living."
16:50Um but how how are the parties
16:52themselves in France articulating what's
16:55happening? What is What is, you know,
16:57Mélenchon's and LFI's
17:00explanation of the situation in France?
17:02I mean, I'm sure a lot of it is what
17:04you've already given us.
17:05Um versus what is the narrative of the
17:08Macron milieu
17:10as to what's happened?
17:12>> All right. So, I'll I'll do the
17:14narrative
17:16dissection. But, before I do that, I
17:18want to say something which I consider
17:19to be an objective and factual analysis,
17:21which is
17:23when you have and my understanding based
17:25on numbers that I've seen, and we have
17:27to also keep in mind that the government
17:28numbers, like the police numbers versus
17:30the union numbers when it comes to these
17:32kind of mobilizations, are always
17:34different.
17:36So, believe whatever numbers you want.
17:37I'm going to tell you the numbers that
17:38I've seen.
17:39When you have 800,000 people in the
17:41street
17:42and you have 60,000 police mobilized,
17:48you're going to have
17:50a situation in which all those 800,000
17:53people are not under direct police
17:54control.
17:56It's simply not possible to have that
17:57big of a a movement and for the police
18:00to be charging and gassing people before
18:03demos even start. I saw I saw footage
18:06and evidence like I wasn't everywhere in
18:07the country, so I could be wrong, but my
18:09understanding is in several cities that
18:11police were attacking before the the
18:13demos even began.
18:15People weren't even able to like go to
18:17the official legal meeting point for the
18:19beginning of the march, right? Because
18:20at the official legal meeting point
18:22before the March started, there was tear
18:24gas everywhere.
18:25So, the police create a situation in
18:27which people disperse, people upset,
18:30people are angry, people are getting
18:31shot at. And look, what what do I mean
18:34when the police are violent to the kids?
18:36They're throwing grenades at the kids.
18:38Exploding concussive, you know, grenades
18:41that can blow your hand off, that can
18:43blind you, that can like one of the
18:45first day kids a protest a kid lost all
18:47like the front of his teeth.
18:50You know, you get shot with these big
18:51old we call the flash balls.
18:54It's a serious thing, this quote unquote
18:56non-lethal munitions they use. France is
18:59one of the only countries in Europe that
19:00deploys all this. France has like a
19:02record number of mutilated protesters
19:05compared to the rest of the world. So,
19:06to be very clear that the police
19:08repression I'm not just being like a
19:10whiny lip.
19:12This is real violence.
19:14Done by the police. First point. Second
19:17point.
19:18The France Unbowed is taking a lot of
19:21the blame for this movement even though
19:23the France Unbowed
19:24uh does not consider itself to be
19:27leading the movement whatsoever. In
19:28fact, Jean-Luc Mélenchon said,
19:31"We don't lead the movement, the student
19:33unions lead the movement, the trade
19:34unions lead the movement, you know, the
19:36the social forces lead the movement. We
19:38are in support, we take up their
19:40demands,
19:42and we try to protect uh the kids from,
19:45you know, getting massive violence done
19:47to them."
19:48And I can, you know, I think I sent you
19:50guys in our chat earlier uh video of uh
19:53comrade like Aurélien walking into the
19:55streets of Lille with his Republican
19:58sash and his arm up stopping a charge of
20:01riot police that was going to go knock
20:03down a bunch of kids.
20:05So, objectively the tactic works,
20:07right?
20:09And those images, the images of uh my
20:12friend and comrade Bally Bagayoko,
20:15arms outstretched
20:17in front of the students of Saint-Denis,
20:19his city, in front facing the riot
20:21police, protecting them from the charge
20:24with his own body.
20:26Those scenes those those images have
20:28gone around the world as well.
20:29And so obviously when everybody from the
20:33far right to the center quote and quote
20:35left is denouncing, you know, looters
20:38and, you know, rioters and, "Oh my god,
20:42you know, buildings windows were broken
20:44and all this stuff."
20:46And the France Unbowed says, "The fault
20:48lies squarely with the government and
20:50the police. They are the authors of
20:52violence. They are the ones causing this
20:54cycle of chaos."
20:56That is going to elicit a very negative
20:58response for the powers that be. Like,
21:00that's just And part of the strategy of
21:02the France Unbowed is to, as we say in
21:04French, assume or to sort of own that
21:08conflict.
21:10And this is what separates the France
21:12Unbowed from the center left and from,
21:16you know, certain types of politics you
21:17might know in the United States, which
21:19tries to seem reasonable to the
21:21bourgeois press and tries to seem
21:24palatable to the well-to-do. The France
21:27Unbowed simply own the fact that
21:30your government is illegitimate.
21:32Everybody hates your press.
21:34Everybody thinks that you're [ __ ]
21:36And if you look at polling from Saturday
21:38morning, I haven't seen polling since. I
21:39don't think in France it's I don't think
21:41the pollsters can poll like the weekend.
21:44Like, I think it's technically
21:45impossible for them to do a poll this
21:47quickly. But for whatever you think of
21:49public polling, on uh Monday morning,
21:52there was a large majority of French
21:54people supporting the movement.
21:56Supporting the students.
21:58So, it's not like this is some marginal
21:59fringe thing.
22:02So, what what are the other fact forces
22:04doing? Well, the government uh
22:06and the center left basically are two
22:08sides of the same coin. The center left
22:10says, "Oh, it's it's it's a bad the all
22:14of the rioting. It means that people
22:15don't listen to the demands of the
22:17movement. And uh we need, you know,
22:19everybody to calm down and settle down."
22:21And the government says, "You know, we
22:23might just ban protests for a while so
22:25things will calm down, you know.
22:27Uh the far right and the right
22:30which increasingly are the same
22:33they're kind of fusing together. They
22:35want, you know, the France Unbowed to be
22:37banned, like to be prescribed.
22:39Uh they want uh
22:41general a call of a state of emergency,
22:44of a curfew imposed on the youth,
22:47uh and they just want the police to
22:48crack more heads. I mean, they're just
22:50bloodthirsty.
22:51Uh so that's kind of the political
22:53landscape. And then to the left of the
22:55France Unbowed, there are sort of like
22:56ultras and like marginal extreme left
22:59groups that think that the France
23:00Unbowed are like uh you know, betraying
23:02the movement by when Jean-Luc, for
23:05example, says to his militants, you
23:07know,
23:08"Please don't engage in antisocial or,
23:11you know, politically useless behaviors.
23:14Remember that we are here to support and
23:16protect, you know." And he calls on his
23:19supporters to be reasonable and to
23:22remember that they're a nonviolent
23:23democratic movement which can which we
23:25can talk about. That's interpreted by
23:27someone on the extreme left as, you
23:29know,
23:30racism tantamount, you know, just they
23:32have kind of an absurd critique of him.
23:34But that's the sort of political
23:36um
23:37the political landscape.
23:41Did I answer your question fully?
23:42>> follow-up question. Yeah, that was
23:43great.
23:45There was one thing you said in a
23:46previous conversation we had about how
23:49LFI's you know, modus operandi is to
23:52attack the center.
23:54Um in the United States, I think the
23:57left goes about this in a in one of two
24:00ways.
24:01One is to attack the center without
24:03really caring about gaining a popular
24:06majority of support.
24:08Uh just attacking the center from a
24:09principled kind of moral position.
24:11And another is sort of a squeamishness
24:14about upsetting the wrong people as we
24:16as we critique the center and and
24:18position ourselves to the center.
24:21Um and I think that's kind of an
24:22unfortunate dynamic that we've fallen
24:24into in the US left. But from what
24:26you've been talking about, it sounds
24:28like LFI's whole
24:30idea of struggle is to attack the center
24:33with the understanding that that very
24:36attack, that very struggle with the
24:38center, produces a dynamism
24:40that gets us out of our preconceptions
24:43of sociological categories
24:46about who is the left, who is the
24:47center, you know, what is the majority
24:50support. Um, and I think you said
24:52something like
24:53you know, for LFI, the the abstention
24:56vote is the majority.
24:58Right? So, there's this sort of like
25:00what people support, people's, you know,
25:03movement identity hangs in the balance
25:06kind of and that's subject to political
25:08struggle itself.
25:10Um, so I was wondering if you could talk
25:11a little bit about that.
25:13>> Yeah, so there is, I think it's very
25:15common on the Anglophone left to adopt a
25:17very Nate Silver
25:19demographic analysis, poll-based
25:22analysis of politics in which certain
25:25questions and certain institutes of
25:27polling are allowed to define what the
25:29population is, what the electorate is
25:31really, I should say. And to sort of cut
25:33the electorate up into these buckets and
25:36then politics becomes about which
25:37buckets are you carrying, etc., etc.
25:42Pulling back from that for a moment,
25:44look at the sort of left landscape
25:46overall.
25:47I would say that the social democrats,
25:50and by here I mean the proponents both
25:52of classical social democracy and what
25:55social democracy means in France, which
25:56is really sort of center-left politics,
25:59do not understand the crisis. They're in
26:01denial about the crisis of capitalism in
26:05this moment.
26:07Look at what we call the the far left,
26:10the extreme left, or the ultra left,
26:11which are distinct categories, but just
26:13consider them as a bucket for a minute.
26:15They'll be happy fighting as crowds in
26:17this bucket.
26:18They don't understand the conjuncture.
26:21That's why Endnotes publishes articles
26:23that sound like they came from 2013.
26:26Because they they don't have
26:28a conjunctural analysis. And I would
26:31submit to you that the radical left
26:33incarnated by the friends and about by
26:35LFI by Jean-Luc Mélenchon, Clémentine
26:38Autain, Manuel Bompard, Mathilde Panot,
26:41and the the whole panoply of people
26:42involved in the movement understands
26:44both the crisis and the conjuncture.
26:48And you have to have both.
26:50Understanding the crisis, to get back to
26:51your question about the center
26:52specifically, allows us to diagnose what
26:55is the key issue at hand.
26:59Why why is all of this happening? What's
27:02the fundamental problem? What's the
27:03fundamental crisis of capitalism?
27:05Reading the conjuncture guides us to be
27:08able to act within it in real time.
27:11And to be able to pick up the threads
27:13and pull in the threads. So, why why
27:15should we attack the center? Aren't
27:17Isn't the real enemy the far right? You
27:19can do both. Nothing prevents you from
27:21doing both. You can say the far right is
27:23an existential threat that must be
27:25opposed.
27:26And that the center is an existential
27:28threat that must be opposed.
27:30And push hard.
27:32And tell people that, you know, the the
27:34the the situation of climate change is
27:37not something that we're going to just
27:38like calmly talk about in summits and
27:41handle eventually someday. We need a
27:43rupture with the current way of doing
27:45the economy in order to address climate
27:47change. It's not something to be
27:50progressively handled over a number of
27:52decades. That's not going to work.
27:54That's not a real response to the
27:56crisis. Nor does it understand the
27:58conjuncture in which people don't
28:00believe in this kind of reformist
28:02gradualist approach anymore. That has no
28:04credibility. The socialist movement, the
28:07socialist party, the communist party
28:09have completely disillusioned people
28:12that reformism is possible, that social
28:14democracy can deliver the goods. So, the
28:16only way to build a left force that's
28:18capable of winning
28:20is to break with the old left both
28:23rhetorically, symbolically,
28:26and substantively.
28:29And to sort of restore the core of
28:31Marxist analysis in my view, which is a
28:34historical materialist reading of the
28:36present, right?
28:38Which both again does crisis and
28:40conjuncture. You have to have both of
28:41these things.
28:43So, in terms of hitting the center hard,
28:46the France Unbowed votes against the
28:48Macron government more than any other
28:50force. Is constantly trying to overthrow
28:52the government. Like is literally trying
28:53to constantly do these moves to to what
28:56we call destitute the the government by
28:59like forcing Macron out, forcing the
29:01Prime Minister out. Like when they talk
29:03about Palestine in disgusting ways, our
29:06deputies like Sebastian Delogu will come
29:08out with a big Palestine flag in the
29:10middle of the assembly and make
29:12everybody scream and cry. And when
29:14they're talking about immigration, uh
29:16people like Antoine Léaumont will stand
29:19up and point to the far right and say,
29:20"You are the inheritors of Vichy. You
29:23are the the, you know, the the the
29:25residue of fascism." This kind of, you
29:27know, really pointing people in the face
29:30and saying, "You represent that Nazi
29:33heritage."
29:34And all of us here are descendant of
29:36immigration. Then forcing people to
29:38raise their hands in the assembly. "Who
29:39among you has a a parent or grandparent
29:43or great-grandparent who is not French?"
29:45And obviously almost everybody raises
29:47their hand in the the assembly. So, this
29:49kind of
29:50politicizing every single moment, taking
29:53every single opportunity to drive
29:55forward the program. And we should talk
29:56about the program in a moment. But to
29:58drive forward the positive vision that
30:00the France Unbowed has, while
30:02systematically tearing down every
30:05[ __ ] claim of the center and the
30:07right and the far right and the center
30:09left, to be honest.
30:10That's that's necessary. It You have to
30:12I mean, it You have to be very
30:13Clausewitz. You can't be like a nice,
30:17you know, um get along to, you know,
30:19come along to get along politician if
30:21you actually want to do politics in the
30:22National Assembly.
30:28>> Yeah, I forget who I forget who is is
30:30originally responsible for the quote,
30:32but in
30:34you know, considering political
30:35strategy, I like that brought up like
30:37Clausewitz, for example. Um
30:39this sort of ultimate um antagonistic
30:42approach to politics.
30:43But somebody said once
30:45>> basically by other means, right?
30:47>> Right, exactly. Reflections of each
30:49other. Yeah.
30:50Um someone said that
30:53you know, that getting to this dynamism
30:55idea, that
30:57you know, in politics
31:00metaphorically, if someone plays Queen
31:02B3, well, that can be met by a lob
31:05across the net.
31:07Right? So, there's this there's this
31:08element of total
31:10um
31:11kind of incommensurability between the
31:13decorum, for example,
31:16of the French government that's
31:17discussing, you know, something like
31:19Palestine, and then a a politician that
31:21interrupts that scene with something
31:23coming from totally outside, right? That
31:25that can excite people, that can change
31:28the narrative, change the the possible
31:30positions you can take up in that
31:31particular setting, now.
31:33Um
31:34So, yeah, I like I I mean, it's very
31:36exciting watching what's happening
31:37there.
31:39>> I should I should also correct myself,
31:40cuz I think Jean Luc would say something
31:42different than what I said a moment ago
31:43that's even more interesting and
31:45nuanced.
31:46I think what he would say is that
31:48politics
31:51isn't exactly war by other means in a
31:53strict Clausewitz sense, but something a
31:56little bit more
31:58precise.
31:59That politics
32:01specifically democracy. So, maybe
32:03politics and war really are reflections,
32:05but for Jean Luc, the value of democracy
32:07and why we are democratic movement is
32:09that it allows for dissensus and for a
32:12peaceful uh
32:14social negotiation of these conflicts.
32:17It allows us a mechanism to handle the
32:21various like forces in society jostling
32:23without resorting to killing each other.
32:26So, if we admit that Clausewitz was onto
32:28something
32:30the proviso of Jean Luc, which I you
32:33know, he's pulling from Jacques Rancière
32:34and I believe
32:36I forget if it's Demosthenes or
32:37Democritus or some ancient figures as
32:39well.
32:40That this idea of the democracy as the
32:42sort of site of a political struggle
32:45and just
32:46doing political struggle democratically.
32:49Uh you mentioned a go that the idea of a
32:50dynamic. Why did I reject the Nate
32:53Silver sort of
32:54um
32:55dem- demographic cutting up of the
32:57population of buckets is because if you
33:00have a movement with a serious program
33:03with people capable of articulating it,
33:04people are capable of arguing it
33:06publicly, people are capable of going
33:08out and demonstrating good faith. When
33:10the mayor of Saint Denis, the unbowed
33:12communist mayor of Saint Denis goes out
33:14and puts his arm arms out and protects
33:16the kids, those kids are going to
33:18remember that.
33:19When when the deputies are standing in
33:21front of the barricade,
33:23when the deputies are sitting there
33:24smoking their cigarette like Clémentine
33:26Autain drinking her coffee and and
33:28telling the police, "Look, you all are
33:29going to chill out. We're going to have
33:31a nice chat here, right?" That's all
33:34active personal bodily protection of the
33:36movement that those people understand,
33:38read, and it goes beyond whatever the
33:40media says. Right? Because the media,
33:43and this is another problem of people
33:45like the
33:47a lot of like left pundits in the press
33:49is they really overestimate the value
33:52and the importance of the the old press,
33:54right? Everybody when you go out like I
33:56was out at the blockades with the high
33:57schoolers,
33:59this is their press.
34:01Right? They're looking at their Tik Tok.
34:03They're looking at the Snapchat. They're
34:05looking at all this stuff. That's where
34:06they're getting their information from.
34:07They're not getting their information
34:09from Le Monde.
34:11They're not reading, you know, they're
34:12not listening to the terrestrial radio.
34:15So, I just think we have to also keep
34:16that in mind of like
34:18how many people do you know in America
34:20that [ __ ] hate the the press and hate
34:22the government and think all politicians
34:24are corrupt?
34:25And like all you talk about Palestine,
34:27you don't really care, you're just doing
34:28it, whatever, right? That's a very
34:30common sentiment on the American left,
34:32isn't it not? That politicians like
34:34Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie
34:36Sanders are not solid on Palestine. What
34:38if Cortez got in a boat and went to Gaza
34:41to break the blockade and went to prison
34:43and came out.
34:45Like that would be completely different
34:46relationship to the pro-Palestine
34:48movement where even if and I'll actually
34:50go this far. Even if
34:52she said some stuff that they didn't
34:53like, people would not jump at her
34:56because they'd be like look, she did go.
34:58You know.
35:00We'll give her some room to maneuver,
35:02right? And it's the same thing with the
35:03France Unbowed. Are they perfect? Do do
35:06does every single deputy always make a
35:08super based woke, you know, great
35:10statement? No, people do people get like
35:13caught doing dumb stuff. You know what I
35:15mean? Like there's all kind of problems
35:16in politics.
35:17But if you're solid in general and you
35:19you you prove yourself as legit,
35:22I think that's the that's the main the
35:24main thing. It's like it's really legit.
35:27Like people talk the talk and walk the
35:30walk and that's what you that's like
35:31what you have to do to build the
35:33dynamic. Because when people have seen
35:35and it's also a matter of repeating it.
35:36Sorry I'm going on at length, but you
35:37asked a big question.
35:39Something like Bernie can't do
35:41just because of who he is is he can't
35:43build successively, right? Jean-Luc was
35:46running 10 years ago and every time he
35:48runs he gets like higher and higher and
35:51higher and higher, right? And it creates
35:53this momentum of like this time he can
35:56really do it and people have seen him
35:57debate these knuckleheads for many
36:00years. He's very very well known, you
36:02know. He's really high name ID as Nate
36:04Silver would say.
36:07And that's also part of building the
36:08dynamic, of building a force over 10
36:10years that people know, that they
36:11identify with, that they see as in in
36:14osmosis with society,
36:16right? Like my the guys in my union are
36:18in the Unbowed and you know, the
36:20feminist women on you know, on Women's
36:22Day are out there in the Unbowed and all
36:24this stuff. Like that that's what
36:25creates the dynamic on the left. And
36:28then when it comes to your your you
36:29brought up the abstentionists, I should
36:31say this very briefly.
36:33Basically there's typically an an
36:34analysis of three electoral blocks. To
36:37get back to the Nate Silver buckets,
36:38there's the left block, the center block
36:41or the bourgeois block and the right far
36:43right block. Okay?
36:45The France Unbowed theorizes a fourth
36:47electoral block, which is the people
36:49that don't participate,
36:51and analyzes that this is actually
36:53where the most people can be gained,
36:56where the most votes can be gained.
36:58It's hard to get these votes because you
36:59have to like get people that typically
37:01don't vote to vote.
37:03And that's not obvious. You got to get
37:04them registered. You got to like show
37:06them, "Hey, on this day, you go to this
37:07place, blah blah blah." You know, you
37:09got to do all that ground game.
37:11But the France Unbowed has like half a
37:12million base militants.
37:14So, they have enough people to go out
37:16there and sign people up to vote, right?
37:19So, the whole strategy is instead of
37:20trying to like
37:22glue together what's left of the
37:24decaying center and center left to this
37:27radical left that is fundamentally
37:28opposed to their values and tactics,
37:31instead, just we're going to be solid in
37:33what we're offering, and we're going to
37:34turn to the people that politics has
37:36ignored and forgotten,
37:38and say, "What if we actually made your
37:40life better immediately, and solved the
37:43institutional problems in this country,
37:46so that these problems don't reappear?"
37:49>> Yeah, I was thinking like the last time
37:51America had like a big protest right
37:53movement was probably like George Floyd
37:55in 2020. Um and that's when there were
37:57big demands around like abolition on the
38:00like extra on the far end, but also more
38:02moderately like to defund the police.
38:04And since since after 2020, after the
38:06Democrats won, they kind of did this
38:09elite backlash against these like type
38:11of demands. And it got to the point
38:13where even yet today like our elected
38:15socialists like Zohran Mamdani and AOC,
38:18they kind of have to present themselves
38:20as, "Oh, you know, we're the we're
38:21sensible socialists. You know, woke one
38:23was crazy, and our what we want to do is
38:25actually totally reasonable and
38:27realistic." Um and yet the contrast
38:29between that and LFI is pretty obvious,
38:31but I think part of the problem is we
38:33just don't have like our own like
38:35leftist gravitational pull. It's kind of
38:37we like there there's big like popular
38:41excitement over the idea of what these
38:43people represent, which is an
38:44alternative to do-nothing Democrats and
38:46Republicans of uh like galvanizing mass
38:50energy.
38:51But then once they get elected, you
38:53know, they're all fundamentally part of
38:55the Democratic Party and I guess faced
38:57with two options, one is to fight the
38:59Democrats and one is to kind of uh
39:03bow to this like pressure so that they
39:05they have like the institutional
39:08channels to deliver.
39:09They pick the latter and I think part of
39:11it is like a moral failing on their side
39:13part is all here they just don't have
39:15like the
39:17independent institutional strength the
39:18way France and Bault does and that's
39:22something we're struggling with I guess.
39:25>> I think that's due a lot also to the
39:26strategy that's been chosen. I mean
39:28earlier I I contrasted the center left
39:30or the social Democrats with the radical
39:32left and the far left. Should I like
39:34explain the strategy now or or
39:37wait for that later?
39:39>> Please go for it.
39:41>> So basically in in French left politics,
39:44there's two big divisions.
39:46Do you do elections or not?
39:48If you do elections,
39:50then you are in one of these three
39:52groups. If you don't do elections, then
39:54you're an ultra of some kind.
39:57An ultra leftist.
39:58I used to be an ultra leftist. I used to
40:00be an electoral abstentionist in
40:01principle because I thought there was no
40:02point in participating. I think it's a
40:04reasonable position to hold. I think at
40:06certain points
40:07Well, I guess maybe not in principle
40:09isn't really that reasonable, but I
40:10think it is a contextual situation where
40:12at certain points like certain electoral
40:14systems are going to be so corrupted and
40:16useless that participating in them is
40:18just a waste of time. And I think that's
40:19a serious concern that people should
40:21take seriously.
40:24We also have to think about like what's
40:25your model as a leftist overall before
40:28we even get to dealing with elections.
40:29Like do you believe in revolution? Do
40:31you believe in gradual reforms? Like
40:33what do you want to do? Are you actually
40:34a socialist or communist at all? Or do
40:37you just want I don't know a
40:39welfare state? Right? When I say the
40:41left in France, it means that you're at
40:42least some kind of socialist. Right?
40:44You're at least somebody who wants a a a
40:47with the capitalist order in some sense,
40:49right? That you can't
40:51Um even if that break is Well, I guess
40:54uh I'm kind of indicting myself. I'm
40:56sorry. I'm speaking off the cuff.
40:58In the French left, you have to be at
41:00least somewhat anti-capitalist to be on
41:02the left. Let's put it that way.
41:05You have to have some critique of
41:06capitalism.
41:07Within that, I'm I brought the ultras
41:09and then everybody else, so let's put
41:10the ultras to the side. They're pretty
41:11irrelevant today, anyway.
41:13Um everybody else, you're going to have
41:15the center-left, the social democrats.
41:16They basically believe in
41:19uh incremental gradual reforms, which uh
41:22either simply create a sort of social
41:24safety net, which is I guess I said the
41:26typical democrat US democrat move,
41:30or the DSA move, as far as I can tell,
41:32which is like by I think I saw um
41:35Escargot Pro on Twitter say this today
41:37or some other socialist majority caucus
41:40person saying like, "Well, what we need
41:42to do is just like stack wins, and when
41:44we stack enough wins, then we like get
41:47over a certain line or whatever." And
41:49that's like a classical social
41:50democratic position, where you believe
41:52that like within the sort of husk of
41:54liberal democracy, you can do enough,
41:57you know, salami slice reforms to get to
42:00uh socialist um society of some kind,
42:03right?
42:04Uh the Frantz Fanon rejects that, as
42:06does the the radical left generally, and
42:08the far left.
42:10Uh the far left is easier to explain. I
42:11think your listeners and readers would
42:13be familiar with it. Typically far
42:15leftists would be like or it's sometimes
42:17called extreme leftists, would be like
42:20classical Marxist-Leninists or Maoists
42:22or this kind of um sect,
42:25where basically they don't really
42:27believe in winning power in elections,
42:29but they believe in participating in
42:30elections in order to do propaganda or
42:35get money or build their social base or
42:38whatever, right? I think a lot of DSAers
42:40make this kind of argument when they
42:41talk about AOC, and it's like, "Well, if
42:43we don't do anything in the presidential
42:45that's coming up in the US, then we're
42:47going to be just like marginal and
42:48nobody will care about what you know
42:50what we're what we're doing." That's
42:51kind of a extreme or far left instinct
42:53of like, we need to at least do
42:54something in elections even if we can't
42:56win.
42:57And, you know, that has a long and
42:58storied history. I think Lenin at
43:00several points expounded such position.
43:03And then the radical left is something
43:05that might be unique to the French
43:06situation. I'm not I think Marxist Unity
43:08Group in DSA might be radical left, but
43:11I'm kind of waiting for them to really
43:13theorize this more explicitly.
43:15But the radical left says, we need to
43:17take power democratically within the
43:19current institution of liberal
43:20democracy, within the bourgeois order,
43:24in order to dismantle it.
43:26Immediately.
43:28So, not to like do salami slice reforms,
43:31but to
43:32bring, you know, for example, in the
43:34France and Bowed, we have a a program.
43:36The program is going to be applied
43:37immediately. Like, Jean-Luc wins, we
43:40start to apply the program.
43:42The program addresses the grievances and
43:44the the needs of the people, the needs
43:46of our electorate. We can talk about the
43:48people versus the working class later if
43:50you want, but just allow me the term the
43:52people for a moment.
43:53We address the the needs of the people
43:55now,
43:56once taking power, and that sets us up
43:58to do the constituent assembly, which is
44:00going to do a sixth republic. So, we're
44:02going to replace the current French
44:03constitution with a new constitution. I
44:06believe Elvis Presley's Heartbreak Hotel
44:09is
44:10uh older than the current French
44:11constitution. So, France changing
44:13constitutions is not uh some like pie in
44:16the sky demand. It's something that has
44:18happened, can happen, and will happen
44:21eventually. The fifth republic cannot
44:23endure forever. The fourth republic, the
44:25third, the second, and the first did not
44:28endure forever.
44:29So, that's the overall plan of the
44:32radical left. Take power democratically,
44:35once in power,
44:38do what can appear, I guess, to be
44:40social democratic, that is like do
44:42immediate wins now, but it's really not
44:44in the sense that it's not um
44:48it's not these alone that are going to
44:50be the real change. The real big change
44:52is the whole process of getting to the
44:55sixth republic.
44:57Does that make sense? And I guess there
44:58is part of the program that's more
45:00radical than social democracy. It's not
45:02simply like we're going to fund the
45:03schools, but it's also we're going to
45:06have an ecological economic plan
45:09to bring to like break the the
45:11dependency on capitalist productivist
45:14accumulation. And you know what I mean?
45:17Get out of NATO. So the program is like
45:19actually much more radical than what
45:20most social democrats propose, but it is
45:22sort of classical social democratish if
45:25you squint. If you want to like be a bad
45:28faith actor and not think about the
45:30overall dynamic. But the dynamic is that
45:32the movement exists to address the
45:34immediate concerns. And where do these
45:35concerns come from? They come from
45:38consultation with all the social forces.
45:40They come from listening to the
45:41ecological movements as the democrats
45:43would say, the groups, so detested by
45:46Ezra Klein, right? You listen to the
45:48groups,
45:49right? Abolishing the police
45:52is not part of the France Unbowed
45:54program. Disarming the police is.
45:58Because disarming the police can be done
46:00in a presidential mandate. Or in a in a
46:02in a
46:03in a city council mandate. Now, I I am
46:06speaking under the reserve that I have
46:08not actually looked over this part of
46:09the program. It was just came out or is
46:12about to come out. I've I'm kind of in a
46:13daze. I'm not exactly sure where we are.
46:15But it's like imminent. It's either just
46:17happened or is about to happen. I'm in
46:18the sort of like
46:20the the quantum flux of has the program
46:22been updated yet? But I know for example
46:24Bally Bagayoko in Saint Denis earlier
46:26this year he won on a program in
46:28involving disarming the police, right?
46:30So he intends to disarm them in his
46:33mayoral mandate. That's a real thing
46:35he's going to do. He can't abolish them
46:38because it's not a project that he can
46:39accomplish in this mandate. Does that
46:41make sense? So we don't offer people pie
46:43in the sky like grandstandy things. We
46:47say what can actually be done?
46:49And then what are these structural
46:51changes that can be done in order to
46:53open up the next cycle of structural
46:55struggle in the next conjuncture?
46:57Because the overall to go back to the
46:58overall like epochal situation
47:02for decades following the financial
47:03crisis we've been watching neoliberalism
47:06run aground and social movements contest
47:08it and contest it and contest it, but
47:10nowhere has it been able to actually
47:12break through and like unblock the
47:14political situation to a new stage.
47:17And so the France Unbowed believes like
47:20its purpose is to do that unblocking
47:22maneuver. And that unblocking maneuver
47:24and it's like in a game of American
47:25football. You know a real heavy guy to
47:27come and push the other guy away. Like
47:30that's that's what you need to do,
47:31right? So the Jean-Luc is there, you
47:34know, he's heavy.
47:35You know, he's charging and he's going
47:37to make a path for that runner to
47:40get through the line. I mean, that's the
47:42that's the overall strategy. That's why
47:43we need a new republic. Was I clear or
47:45was I a bit shambolic? It's a bit late
47:47for me here as per usual when I
47:48interview with Americans they always
47:49make me go late.
47:51>> Yeah, that's good. That's very good. Um
47:55I mean, I'm happy to start talking about
47:56the people. Oh, go ahead Nick. Yeah, say
47:58what you wanted to say.
47:59>> Yeah, just to answer your question on
48:01DSA really quick. I would say like right
48:02now the organization is kind of
48:04polarized between a left like a
48:06quote-unquote left and a quote-unquote
48:08right. Um the right kind of uh correctly
48:11pursues electoralism as a strategy
48:13whereas the left tends to be more
48:14abstentionist. Um the problem that we're
48:17now seeing with uh like Zohran Mamdani
48:18is that there's not much of a plan as to
48:20what happens after you win elections and
48:22have to govern. We've kind of seen uh
48:24Zohran pursue the strategy of you know,
48:26he can deliver by by collaboration with
48:29like establishment Democrats. He can
48:31pass these reforms like uh social
48:33democratic reforms like you say like the
48:35child care. And then he can avoid um
48:38certain reforms that avoid that uh that
48:41that would require political
48:42confrontation. Like he hasn't He's
48:44basically been dragging his feet on
48:45police reform. Um so just kind of
48:48picking the smoothest path of resistance
48:49without a political confrontation is
48:51kind of where that ends up. And so
48:53that's kind of a problem with the right
48:54strategy. And the problem with the left
48:56strategy is they're right kind of
48:57rightfully frustrated by this approach,
48:59but kind of advocate abstentionism from
49:02elections.
49:03But yeah, I think
49:05let's yeah, let's shift gears to like
49:07when you talk about the people and
49:09Jean-Luc Mélenchon's like Marxism. But I
49:11think like Greece is very influenced by
49:14Laclau and Mouffe and were trying to
49:16running a hegemony and socialist
49:17strategy reading group.
49:19But we we do consider ourselves to be
49:21Marxist and it's interesting when I read
49:23now the people Mélenchon's book that
49:26you know, the word like Marx Marx will
49:27say like at a certain stage of
49:29development the material productive
49:30forces of society come into conflict
49:32with the existing relations of
49:33production. And then we kind of see
49:35Mélenchon kind of going against the kind
49:37of standard economist interpretations of
49:39what Marx is talking about. He talks to
49:41the fact that the internet has
49:43like networked all of us together like
49:45Wikipedia, the way information is like
49:47instantaneously available. Um the the
49:50way the way material production and
49:52social life has been advanced to scale
49:55and this is becoming kind of
49:57incompatible with like private property.
49:59Um so I think Mélenchon is kind of a
50:01Marxist in a way that goes against the
50:04kind of like standard economist
50:05interpretations, but um based on that
50:07what what does he mean by the people? Is
50:09that the same thing as the proletariat
50:12or is he doing something new with
50:13Marxism?
50:15>> So I would say he's doing something new,
50:17but it is rooted in
50:20historical materialism. I would say
50:22there's a there's I don't know if you
50:23all are big readers of Bordiga or not,
50:26but I I learned a lot from reading
50:28Bordiga. I'm not going to pretend I did
50:30not, but I do think he made a real fatal
50:32error when he when he considers the
50:34program, the communist program to be
50:36invariant.
50:39Because once you say that the the
50:40communist program is invariant,
50:43then you're you're no longer able to
50:44really read the actually existing social
50:47body and your your your your whole like
50:49system of analysis gets frozen in time.
50:52And if you read people like Engels, they
50:54were very explicit. I mean, I said this
50:56I I think on the on top show. But Engels
50:58is very explicit that the proletariat of
51:00which he spoke was proper to the 19th
51:02century. So, what happens you're 21st
51:04century? Like, or do we need to abolish
51:07the division of town and country? Or did
51:09capitalism already do that?
51:11Because as far as I know, like, I'm
51:13technically right now in the
51:14countryside. I have high-speed internet.
51:16I have indoor plumbing. I have
51:18electricity.
51:19I have an urban form of life.
51:22Like, I have the same the same logistics
51:25networks that bring eggs to the center
51:27of the city, bring eggs to this country
51:30residence at which I am. So, in what
51:33sense am I not in the city? Like, what
51:36what would it mean today to abolish the
51:38distinction of town and country?
51:41And I mean this very honestly and
51:42sincerely. Like, what would that
51:43actually mean?
51:45And I think if it doesn't mean anything,
51:48then we need to update our analysis. And
51:49I think there are folks like, you know,
51:51Jacques Camatte and others on the the
51:53French
51:54ultra-left who had a sort of grieving
51:57period for the failures of the workers'
51:59movement and and then the the the
52:01collapse of the workers' movement in the
52:0220th century. I believe that that is
52:05real. Like, that is a real objective
52:07thing we saw in many places, especially
52:10after the collapse of the Soviet Union,
52:12that the old left was completely in
52:14disarray.
52:15And people shouldn't pretend that's not
52:17the case. People shouldn't pretend that
52:18actually existing socialism works, or
52:21that Stalinism or Leninism or Maoism or
52:24these ideologies of a century ago are
52:27pertinent or applicable today. You can
52:30learn things from reading these figures.
52:32I've read them all. But, you know, what
52:34do you learn? A a Maoist dictum that I
52:37think the phrase about applies that was
52:38goes back to what Kolya was bringing up
52:40a moment ago is
52:42reduce the target, neutralize the
52:45intermediaries.
52:46Right? That's like a Sun Tzu-Machiavelli
52:48type
52:50tactical bit of wisdom, right? That's
52:53not really a question about Maoist
52:55specific program, which is completely
52:57more abundant defunct. There's no
52:59application in France or in the US.
53:02And to act otherwise is absurd.
53:04So, how do we actually do Marxism today?
53:06Do we just read Marx again and just keep
53:09reading it and reading it and commenting
53:11it and commenting it and making a
53:13smarter commentary and a more detailed
53:16footnoting? Or do we say, "Okay, what
53:18did he actually do in his day? What
53:21worked? What didn't work? How do we do
53:22it now?" And that's what Jean-Luc does.
53:25Jean-Luc looks at mass urbanization. The
53:27majority of human beings on Earth
53:30he makes a global analysis. The majority
53:32of human beings on Earth now live in
53:34cities. That's new. That was not the
53:36true in Marx's day.
53:38If you read the the
53:41the 18th Brumaire of Napoleon Bonaparte,
53:43they talk about the problems of the
53:44peasantry and the problems, you know, if
53:46you if you look at the history of left
53:48social movements, this issue of urban
53:51versus rural is a really big deal.
53:54It's a sea change that the majority of
53:56the Earth's population is now urban.
53:58This is a This is a huge logistical
54:02change for what it means to organize.
54:04Like
54:05the fact that I'm able to talk to you
54:06live from another continent with a video
54:08and everything, that's huge. I can just
54:11send Jean-Luc a message right now if I
54:14want it. I could just send him a
54:15message.
54:16Right? I don't need to like We don't
54:18need to go to our local section meeting.
54:20And then the local section meeting has
54:22its like
54:23uh what's the term it? Like the ward
54:25meeting.
54:27And the ward goes up to the borough and
54:29then the borough goes to the city and
54:31the city goes to the you know, state and
54:33then the state goes to the region and
54:35the region goes to national. You don't
54:36need all these intermediary structures.
54:39All right, they're literally not
54:40necessary to communicate and to do
54:41logistics. And you can do communication
54:43logistics very fast. Jean-Luc like the
54:47the need to like mimeograph internal
54:49circulars has basically disappeared not
54:52just because the mimeograph is obsolete,
54:54but because Jean-Luc can just go on
54:56national TV and say, you know, I call
54:58upon all of the unbound to remember to
55:00come out and protect the the youth with
55:03the white armband and the white helmet.
55:05He didn't have need to like have a
55:08a big call private like a zoom with
55:10everybody. He can just go on TV and say
55:12that and know that it will be
55:13distributed, right?
55:15At the same time, we see that this has
55:17become a a site of social contestation.
55:19Look at what meta is doing in Brazil.
55:21Look at how they're trying to shut Lula
55:23down with manipulating social networks,
55:26cutting people off. One of the reasons
55:28that the France unbound has its own
55:29application is because it secures its
55:31own internal communications. If needed,
55:34if we're cut off from email, telegram,
55:37blah blah blah blah blah, we have our
55:38own application and we can communicate
55:40with everybody.
55:42People will be able to find each other
55:43and communicate no matter what, you
55:44know, big tech wants to do. Musk can't
55:47stop that, right? So,
55:50the the the the network to nature of
55:52social life has obviously this
55:53communication organizational element. It
55:56also just has a simple logistical
55:57element, which is
55:59from Occupy Wall Street to what we're
56:00seeing today in France with kids
56:02blockading the Louvre Museum,
56:07circulation is a major site of struggle
56:09in a way that,
56:11you know, it the site of production was
56:13the dominant site of struggle in 19th
56:15century.
56:16Because there were fewer sites of
56:17production in part and also because
56:20well,
56:21were there fewer compared to now given
56:22deindustrialization and that might
56:24somebody might in the comments might
56:25kill me for that. But you get what I
56:26mean. Like if you look at a map
56:28sometimes on Twitter I see these maps of
56:30like the growth of steel production over
56:32time relative per country and like
56:34England is like half the globe. You
56:36know, today that's simply not the case.
56:38Steel is produced in a much more
56:41distributed area.
56:42Steel might like steel workers literally
56:44don't have the ability to go to like
56:46Sheffield or whatever and shut down a
56:48third of the economy. But Iran can in
56:50the Strait of Hormuz.
56:52They can cut off what is it like a fifth
56:53of the
56:54petrol production?
56:56So, the the circulation of commodities
56:59has become a major. I mean, I started
57:00this whole podcast talking about the
57:02fishermen blocking off the the petrol
57:05depot and the crisis that can cause. So,
57:08the just-in-time developments of the
57:10capitalist economy, also what some
57:12people call techno-feudalism, means that
57:14people's relationships to these networks
57:16is very different where, for example,
57:19um
57:20you basically have to pay
57:22in order to play in the economy in a way
57:25that was not the case in the 19th
57:27century, you know, like
57:29if you want like a Uber and all these
57:31platforms or even like with
57:33some white-collar professions with AI,
57:35they want people to basically to pay
57:37into this like to basically rent their
57:39ability to do their white-collar work.
57:42You see what I mean? They they want to
57:44extract a rent at every point along
57:47access to the network. And with every
57:49access to the network privatized and
57:51metered, your ability to live is under
57:53attack. And so you have to attack that.
57:57You have to attack the fact that the
57:59network that gives you life is
58:01privatized. And to say no, this needs to
58:03go out of the the system of commodities.
58:05For example, the France Unbowed in the
58:07recent municipal elections
58:09did a whole push to make water a public
58:11good and to make sure that the
58:13basically, I forget the exact amount
58:15quantity of water. I'm kind of bad with
58:16numbers. But the um
58:19I think it's like the first
58:21however many cubic meters that an
58:23average family would use would be free.
58:26So we're going to just like take what
58:27the household needs to survive, to wash
58:30itself, to drink, to cook.
58:32That's going out of the sphere of the
58:34the commodity. Like you're not going to
58:35pay for that anymore. That's going to be
58:36a right. Right? At the same time in the
58:39Sixth Republic, we're going to make
58:40water itself, like the the the streams
58:43and lakes, they're going to get rights
58:46to not be polluted, to not be destroyed,
58:48to not be degraded. And then the people
58:50that use water in excess are going to be
58:53taxed out the ass.
58:55Right? That's going to shift the whole
58:58relationship of how do we relate to
59:00water? It's going to It's going to
59:01change our relationship to the natural
59:03resources. One of the things that the
59:04France Unbowed wants to do, to get back
59:06to this like network thing, is to think
59:08about the ecology of the Earth and of
59:11every ecosystem that's in sort of France
59:14and say actually we should
59:16administratively divide the country
59:18based on which ecosystems give which
59:21life to which people. Like the hydrology
59:23of the country should decide how it's
59:26administratively defined.
59:28Right? Not just like line random lines I
59:30drew on the map.
59:32And why? Because water is connected to
59:34industry, to agriculture, to health.
59:37Pollution of water leads to pollution of
59:39people's bodies.
59:40And we have to have clean water if we
59:42want to have better health outcomes,
59:44reduce health care costs, blah blah blah
59:45blah blah. Like it's all thought of as a
59:47system and put together in that way.
59:51And I guess to to wrap with the the
59:53ecological aspect of the network, one of
59:55the things that we want to introduce
59:56with the Sixth Republic is the green
59:58rule, which is that we cannot take from
1:00:01an ecosystem more than it can produce in
1:00:021 year.
1:00:04We cannot just deplete ecosystems. And
1:00:06again, if you think a conjunctural and
1:00:09network way,
1:00:11if you deplete an ecosystem year over
1:00:14year, the network will fail.
1:00:18Right? So we we stop uh you were asking
1:00:20me about the proletariat. I I might not
1:00:22have answered that. I'll answer that
1:00:23now.
1:00:24The proletariat when it comes to the
1:00:25people
1:00:26>> Yeah, I wanted to
1:00:27>> The proletariat is a factor within the
1:00:29people.
1:00:31Oh, just to finish. And the people are
1:00:33those who take up this task of
1:00:37going from subject to citizen. That is
1:00:39going from someone who is like a renter
1:00:41or dependent on the networks to someone
1:00:43who collectively owns and controls the
1:00:45networks. And obviously production is a
1:00:49part of that. And so the historic
1:00:51proletariat, which you know, remnants of
1:00:53still exist, like the workers movement
1:00:55is is not completely extinct even though
1:00:57it's you know, greatly diminished. That
1:00:59continues and we continue to take up
1:01:01their demands. But it's no longer the
1:01:03case that society is divided into molar
1:01:05heaps and that there's simply the
1:01:06capitalist class and the proletariat and
1:01:09lumpens. It's a more complex system than
1:01:11that today. So
1:01:14pretending like using the discourse of
1:01:161871
1:01:17in 2026,
1:01:19beyond certain humanist universal
1:01:21principles that don't change, uh the
1:01:23actual sociological categories are
1:01:24defunct. And so, we shouldn't Also, the
1:01:27motive action, I think this is a
1:01:29something a lot of people don't
1:01:30understand. Like,
1:01:31why don't we call on seizing the banks
1:01:33or like taking guns? Because we don't
1:01:35believe an armed insurrection would
1:01:36work.
1:01:39Like, that's the fundamental idea of
1:01:40Jean-Luc is that you can't win an armed
1:01:42insurrection. It's not a real
1:01:46situation today.
1:01:47And the the the way you can actually win
1:01:50is by democratically winning in liberal
1:01:52democracy. Because in France, we have
1:01:54this ability to, you know, change the
1:01:56constitution. And we have a very strong
1:01:58presidency. So, we use the very strong
1:02:00presidency against the system
1:02:02in a sort of
1:02:04uh dynamic transition to a new, you
1:02:07know, uh
1:02:09political situation in which these
1:02:10current institutions no longer obtain.
1:02:13That's what the constituent assembly is.
1:02:14I don't know if your listeners or
1:02:16readers are aware, but I'll just make
1:02:17this explicit very briefly. In the
1:02:19constituent assembly, you take all the
1:02:20existing
1:02:21political institutions, you put them in
1:02:22the trash, and then you draw up new
1:02:24ones.
1:02:29>> Yeah, this so this is good stuff. So,
1:02:32you know, this I know that Mélenchon is
1:02:35concerned with this urban subject. And I
1:02:37think this is his real, um,
1:02:39kind of exciting
1:02:41uh, take when it comes to his political
1:02:43strategy.
1:02:44Um, and I think it does mark a break,
1:02:46actually, with with a lot of what we've
1:02:49gotten used to in in Marxist political
1:02:51discourse. Because
1:02:54the urban subject, and and kind of going
1:02:57back to what you're saying about how
1:02:58violence is not really, um,
1:03:00a viable path toward political power in
1:03:03societies like France.
1:03:07But democracy is. And the reason for
1:03:09that
1:03:10is not that we have these formal
1:03:12democratic systems. It's that the people
1:03:14of France believe that they have
1:03:16democratic rights.
1:03:18That is a universally understood right.
1:03:22Um even if people recognize that the
1:03:23current system isn't quite living up to
1:03:25those rights or they're being deprived
1:03:27in certain ways, they believe they have
1:03:28those rights.
1:03:29And so those rights can be asserted by a
1:03:31political project
1:03:34that effectively organizes people's
1:03:36desire into it. Um as people who are
1:03:38trying to constitute these rights. And I
1:03:40think the the city
1:03:42is sort of another site where this
1:03:44happens, right? Like the city is trying
1:03:47to produce something new. It's trying to
1:03:49produce a culture.
1:03:51In all these ways that you're talking
1:03:52about, these
1:03:53very very new
1:03:55technologically advanced ways where all
1:03:57these former obstacles are being eroded.
1:03:59But commodification presents itself as
1:04:01an obstacle to what the city and the
1:04:03people in the city, the urban subject,
1:04:05are trying to accomplish.
1:04:07Um and so as the people are trying to
1:04:10assert what they believe are their
1:04:12prerogatives, their rights as urban
1:04:14subjects,
1:04:16capitalism gets in the way.
1:04:18Um and I think that that is actually a
1:04:20different thing than to assert the
1:04:23proletariat
1:04:25as the political subject, as sellers of
1:04:28labor power,
1:04:30who perceive the crisis as I'm not
1:04:32getting enough of my surplus value back.
1:04:35Um you know, I know that's a very crude
1:04:37way of thinking about uh and we can
1:04:40>> see that objectively. People don't do
1:04:41those struggles.
1:04:44Like people aren't Where are people out
1:04:45there asking for less working hours?
1:04:48No, I'm just saying I I I believe in
1:04:49less working hours. I advocate for that.
1:04:52I I talk I'm a union man. I go around
1:04:55talk to my friends and you know,
1:04:57co-workers and say we should work less.
1:04:59And they don't care.
1:05:01So it's just
1:05:03it's just not true. Like it's just not a
1:05:04a real thing. People don't People aren't
1:05:07People are willing to complain and you
1:05:09know, hem and haw. And they might fight
1:05:11for their job if it's on the line like
1:05:13they're going to lose it.
1:05:14But actually fighting hard to get better
1:05:17working conditions or better salary or
1:05:18whatever, it's just simply not a common
1:05:22Most Most French unions exist and I
1:05:24don't know if your your listeners are
1:05:25really syndicalists or trade union
1:05:27people or not, but even the radical
1:05:30French union like I'm part of the
1:05:31General Confederation of Labor, which is
1:05:33like a real lefty union at least in its
1:05:35sort of presentation.
1:05:38I don't know, nine times out of 10 and
1:05:40look, this is important work. I'm not
1:05:42undermining it, but nine times out of 10
1:05:44the point of the the union rep is to be
1:05:47there and help somebody when they're
1:05:48going to get, you know,
1:05:50a harassment complaint or
1:05:52you know, have some
1:05:55negotiation with the boss over
1:05:57disciplinary measure. They're not there
1:05:59like rabble-rousing like let's all get
1:06:01more, you know, that just doesn't that
1:06:03doesn't really exist. And why doesn't it
1:06:05exist?
1:06:07Because that site of of production and
1:06:09that relationship to the economy is no
1:06:11longer as salient as it once was.
1:06:13>> Right. The city is the site of
1:06:14production. The factory is is not. In
1:06:18the same way.
1:06:18>> Yeah, or it is it is in a lesser in a it
1:06:21is kind of subsumed in a larger thing,
1:06:24you know, like the the is struggle
1:06:27within the church still exists. There is
1:06:29still left and right struggle within the
1:06:30church, the Catholic Church, right? Is
1:06:32the Catholic Church really the like
1:06:35are we are we back in the days of
1:06:37Machiavelli where it's like the Guelph
1:06:38and the Ghibelline and you know, the the
1:06:40the questions of church are like sent
1:06:42No, we're not in that that situation.
1:06:44So, we're not at that conjuncture, we're
1:06:45a different conjuncture where the
1:06:47religious questions are posed within the
1:06:50church, there is conflict over both
1:06:52theology and you know, orientation to
1:06:54politics including factions within it
1:06:57that still exist, right? But it's just
1:06:59simply not as salient as it once was.
1:07:01And we have a situation where like the
1:07:03Pope of Rome came to Saint-Denis and you
1:07:06know, took photos of Bally Bagayoko and
1:07:07gave him a medal. You know what I mean?
1:07:09Like he's a Muslim communist.
1:07:12Like
1:07:14we're in a different situation.
1:07:16You know what I mean?
1:07:17>> I
1:07:18I I really do feel like your your point
1:07:20about these centers of struggles is is
1:07:23really key. The uh part about the
1:07:27network of public resources, I think, is
1:07:30uh
1:07:31you know, definitely one of these. And
1:07:33to your point earlier about the
1:07:36the platform that LFI uses, that
1:07:39actually fascinated me. Uh
1:07:42such a such a concept is actually
1:07:43something I've personally looked into
1:07:46and you know, mulled over quite a bit
1:07:48because I asked myself the same
1:07:50question, like well, what you know, it's
1:07:53basically already happened, but like
1:07:54what if, you know, the Musks and the
1:07:57Zuckerbergs and the Bezos, they take
1:07:59over all of these social platforms as
1:08:01public resources, which are further and
1:08:03further being treated as such and
1:08:05considered as such. Uh and they start
1:08:08blocking out all of the
1:08:11the elements of what what what used to
1:08:14be the newspaper, as you you mentioned
1:08:17earlier to the youth. Uh so LFI having
1:08:20its own platform to maintain that
1:08:22independence, I think, is
1:08:24absolutely fascinating to me and I think
1:08:26a a brilliant example of how the
1:08:29democratization of technologies actually
1:08:32introduces the
1:08:34newer and newer routes towards
1:08:37revolutionary processes. So, could you
1:08:40talk a little bit more about that? Like
1:08:41how the app works, like if you if you're
1:08:43able to, just cuz I'm so curious.
1:08:45>> is called Popular Action, Action
1:08:47Populaire. Excuse me.
1:08:50So, I'm going to sneeze at some point
1:08:51here. Uh if you want to have a really
1:08:53deep dive, I would really recommend you
1:08:55interview my friend and comrade Connor
1:08:57Mulhern,
1:08:59who is an expert on these sorts of apps.
1:09:01He has traveled across the world,
1:09:04really, studying different social
1:09:06movements, helping different uh
1:09:09He's like a kind of elect He's both a
1:09:12expert of the far right, as well as an
1:09:13expert on electioneering generally. He's
1:09:16like a left electioneering logistics
1:09:17kind of mind. Kind of like one of those
1:09:20baseball I guess that sort of Nate
1:09:22Silver-y spirit is in him. You know, he
1:09:23might not like that, but he has that
1:09:25kind of money ball mind.
1:09:27And
1:09:29he always is talking to me about
1:09:30different apps. Like actually the Swedes
1:09:31have a better app. Popular Action is
1:09:33outdated.
1:09:34So Connor would say you should go talk
1:09:36to the Swedish left cuz they have the
1:09:37best app. But
1:09:40the French app is humble and simple. You
1:09:43can scan a QR code, download it from
1:09:45Apple, I I
1:09:48[ __ ] what's it even called? The App
1:09:50Store, excuse me. You can get it from
1:09:52Android in the Play Store or whatever.
1:09:53You can get it directly from the site.
1:09:55Um
1:09:57In it you have a message system. So
1:09:59basically you have like
1:10:01DMs and like group group chats that you
1:10:04can have.
1:10:05Uh you have the ability to create a
1:10:08local action group, which I can talk
1:10:10about later, but that's like the base
1:10:11cell of the Unbowed.
1:10:13You have the ability to
1:10:16create, find, participate in events. So
1:10:19you can say I want to make an event. Uh
1:10:21or you can say I want to attend an
1:10:22event. Right? Or I want to look at a map
1:10:24of events near me or anywhere else in
1:10:26the country. If you're traveling, you
1:10:28can just open the app and see is there
1:10:29an event in the town I'm traveling
1:10:31through? Is there a group here?
1:10:33Uh you can find and join and create
1:10:35groups, obviously. I think I said that.
1:10:37You can uh
1:10:39get material. Some of the material is
1:10:41free, some of it is paid.
1:10:43Uh like I'm waiting on my Mélenchon 2027
1:10:46jersey, which should be arriving
1:10:48shortly. That is a paid merch item. But
1:10:51you can typically get like flyers and
1:10:53posters and the basic militant material
1:10:56that you would need to actually do a
1:10:57campaign
1:10:58uh for free. And this is also something
1:11:00I should step back and talk about the
1:11:02strategy.
1:11:04Um
1:11:05the Unbowed don't ever stop campaigning.
1:11:10So like imagine that the Zoran campaign
1:11:11never stopped. Or the Bernie campaign
1:11:14just never stopped. That's my maybe the
1:11:16easiest way to understand how the
1:11:17Unbowed got started. If in 2016 Bernie
1:11:21just never stopped campaigning.
1:11:23And just continued and continued and
1:11:25continued. And so whenever there's some
1:11:27kind of
1:11:29chicanery going on like
1:11:32they want to make some nonsense law
1:11:35that's going to allow pollutants and
1:11:37pesticides in your food. We get flyers
1:11:39for food. We go around, hand flyers out,
1:11:41go door-to-door, talk to people about
1:11:43pesticides. You raise You do some
1:11:45consciousness raising.
1:11:47You get people sent registered to vote
1:11:49all the time.
1:11:50You get people involved in action groups
1:11:51all the time. In season, out of season.
1:11:54Do you all like football or not really?
1:12:00>> I'm sorry, could you repeat that last
1:12:01part?
1:12:02>> Do any of you like American football?
1:12:05>> Uh I'm not personally a fan, uh but I
1:12:08don't know about you guys.
1:12:09>> Nick Kelly, you.
1:12:10>> Yeah.
1:12:12>> I like basketball.
1:12:14>> I'll watch it live.
1:12:14>> One more reason to stop watching.
1:12:17But
1:12:17>> What, you opposed to CTE?
1:12:19>> my team is actually very good,
1:12:20unfortunately. I'm from Seattle.
1:12:22>> Oh, okay. Okay, the Seahawks. So, I
1:12:25obviously being actually from the
1:12:27heartland of America, I don't give a
1:12:28[ __ ] about the NFL. So, about college
1:12:30football, thank you.
1:12:31And uh I was going to say the the really
1:12:34remarkable story of last year in college
1:12:35football was the story of the Indiana
1:12:38Hoosiers, who were one of the worst
1:12:40football teams in all of history going
1:12:42on to win the national championship with
1:12:43a perfect season. And their coach uh
1:12:46Signetti, who had a very uh
1:12:49strong and brilliant strategy for
1:12:51playing the game, which is that you just
1:12:54play every single play the same.
1:12:57You're under pressure, you're down 50
1:12:58points, you're up 12 points, whatever,
1:13:00you just keep playing the same way.
1:13:03It's 2 minutes left, you keep playing
1:13:04the same way. And you play as if every
1:13:06play matters. You're not playing
1:13:08lackadaisical the whole time, right?
1:13:09You're playing as if every play matters,
1:13:11but you're also staying cool in your
1:13:13head, right?
1:13:14And that's something that the un-batter
1:13:15always trying to do is just maintain a
1:13:18calm, steady, in season, out of season.
1:13:21It's raining, it's hailing. Everybody's
1:13:23calling us anti-Semites. We're out there
1:13:25talking about Palestine. We don't stop.
1:13:27We don't get all like shook up, right?
1:13:29And you just have to keep out there and
1:13:31keep pushing and pushing and pushing all
1:13:32the time. So, the popular action applets
1:13:34let us do that. Uh the other things you
1:13:36can do with the app,
1:13:38uh sometimes there are like
1:13:41votes or um
1:13:44like uh you can you can send up
1:13:45information in various ways to the
1:13:47national through the apps, and there are
1:13:49also ways to get involved with different
1:13:51of the the poles and spaces of the
1:13:53movements. Like there's an international
1:13:55pole, there's a a sport and culture
1:13:57pole, there is a youth pole, right? You
1:14:00have all these different poles. And so,
1:14:02if you're like a base militant in the
1:14:04middle of nowhere, and you want to get
1:14:05involved on sport and culture, you can
1:14:07just go in the app and like find a group
1:14:09and join it. And then now you're part of
1:14:10the national sport and culture group.
1:14:13And they have like some vetting. Like
1:14:14they'll probably ask you some questions
1:14:15to make sure you're not a troll before
1:14:17they let you in.
1:14:19But it's pretty open-ended. Like there's
1:14:20hundreds of peoples in these things,
1:14:22right? It's not like a an old boys club.
1:14:24And you can start, you know,
1:14:26if you show up, like if Kolya moved to
1:14:28France, and he's out there, and he's
1:14:30hauling ass, and he's flying, and he's,
1:14:32you know, capable of talking and, you
1:14:34know, being a good speaker, there's
1:14:36nothing preventing Kolya from being a
1:14:38candidate for the National Assembly, I
1:14:40guess, other than he's not a a citizen.
1:14:41But like, you can just show up and start
1:14:44doing stuff and get involved and do
1:14:46things.
1:14:47And like, if you're talented, you will
1:14:49rise.
1:14:51Because the movement is very open and
1:14:52and porous with society.
1:14:54And if people are like knuckleheads, or
1:14:57they're doing dumb stuff, they'll get
1:14:59knocked out. And we had, you know, we
1:15:01had a bunch of like softy, center-left
1:15:04people that were trying to tail
1:15:05Mélenchon to get, you know, to get some
1:15:08support or whatever for their own like
1:15:10celebrity political career. And they got
1:15:12their their their [ __ ] knocked out.
1:15:14Well,
1:15:15they didn't actually get physically
1:15:15knocked out. I mean, they got ejected
1:15:17from the movement following the 2024
1:15:20legislative sprints.
1:15:21>> Well, we we were talking before about
1:15:23internal democracy
1:15:24um before this before this podcast.
1:15:27>> And that is something I'm really
1:15:29interested in because on the left in the
1:15:31US, we have this almost fetishistic
1:15:33relationship to internal democracy in
1:15:35the organizations of the left
1:15:36particularly Democratic Socialists of
1:15:39America.
1:15:40But
1:15:41from what I'm understanding from you LFI
1:15:44has a totally different conception of
1:15:47internal democracy versus democracy as
1:15:49such.
1:15:51And I think this gets directly to the
1:15:53heart of the question of political
1:15:54subjectivity as well which we just
1:15:56talked about.
1:15:57So I wanted to hear
1:15:59>> Democracy I
1:16:00>> Right. Yes. So go on and get get going
1:16:02on this. Yeah.
1:16:04>> Sorry. So
1:16:05I was I was mentioning earlier that
1:16:07democracy is how we handle dissensus in
1:16:09society. It's how we politically handle
1:16:11disputes in a non-violent, you know,
1:16:14polite,
1:16:15more or less way, right? Without
1:16:17resorting to fisticuffs and, you know,
1:16:19shooting people.
1:16:23At a certain point
1:16:25you have to just own the fact that you
1:16:27have a position, you have a perspective,
1:16:29and you are standing for something,
1:16:32right? Or you just going to do like
1:16:33Russian nesting dolls
1:16:35infinitely? Like how would that even
1:16:37work? At a certain point you got to have
1:16:39the little doll that's in the middle of
1:16:40all the other dolls, right?
1:16:42So
1:16:45when does the democracy stop and you
1:16:47just sort of assume the fact as we say
1:16:49you you you own the fact that you are
1:16:52standing on some business, right?
1:16:54I would say that in the the Friends on
1:16:56Bound movement we have
1:16:59means by which the whole movement is
1:17:01consulted. It's not like a dictatorship.
1:17:04But neither is it a permanent general
1:17:07assembly.
1:17:08We don't believe in the old left model.
1:17:11And I can explain multiple reasons why,
1:17:12but let me just give you sort of the big
1:17:14picture and we can go into the details
1:17:15in a minute.
1:17:16We don't believe in the old left model.
1:17:18We don't think it works.
1:17:20Look at the old left that still exists.
1:17:22They're still trying to get their
1:17:23candidates together for the election
1:17:24that's in 6 months.
1:17:26We've been campaigning for 6 months.
1:17:28We've been solid for 6 months. We're
1:17:30going to have double the total amount of
1:17:32time ground game as they they
1:17:35Because we had our candidate declared
1:17:37last spring.
1:17:38We have our program. They don't have
1:17:41programs.
1:17:42They don't have big organizations with
1:17:44ground game.
1:17:45They don't have solid candidates.
1:17:47They don't really support each other.
1:17:49The the the old left that's constantly
1:17:51calling for like a big intra-left
1:17:53primary to democratically decide who the
1:17:56candidate's going to be, they can't
1:17:57organize it.
1:17:59Even among themselves, even excluding
1:18:00us.
1:18:02They can't themselves get the greens and
1:18:04the socialists and all these people
1:18:05together to do what they want to do.
1:18:08And so it's just it's not real. And if
1:18:10you look at the history of like the
1:18:11Socialist Party Congresses,
1:18:13these Congresses are infamous for having
1:18:15ballot stuffing and all kinds of
1:18:17chicanery.
1:18:19So the the promise of internal democracy
1:18:21is also it's a theatrical, it's it's
1:18:23fictional. It's a it's a way of allowing
1:18:26people to waste time doing internal
1:18:29politics in organization that's not
1:18:31united, that's not strong. Like Let's
1:18:34think about it in in again. Let Let's be
1:18:36real. Let's just bro out and do pure Sun
1:18:39Tzu Machiavelli.
1:18:41Is it better for your side to be united
1:18:43or divided?
1:18:45Is it better for your opponent to be
1:18:46united or divided?
1:18:48Like
1:18:49why would you want to divide your own
1:18:51side? It doesn't make sense.
1:18:53So the way the Front Son Baht handles
1:18:55the need uh to have consultation and and
1:18:59unity in the movement is that instead of
1:19:01democracy in the sense of like majority
1:19:03votes,
1:19:05we try to do consensus as much as
1:19:07possible.
1:19:09Because consensus when like the four of
1:19:11the five of us I should say, or I guess
1:19:13we're four people. Sorry. I was counting
1:19:15myself looking at the uh
1:19:17the I was doing I was I was getting
1:19:18really my Baudrillard bag there. I was I
1:19:20was
1:19:21really lost from it. The four of us
1:19:23getting together and we say, "Look, it's
1:19:25going to be me and uh Kolya versus the
1:19:27others." I always put the group in two
1:19:29on a majority minority vote. And maybe
1:19:32we'll like get Nick to be, you know,
1:19:34cut out and be like the the one lone
1:19:37loser. And now he's got this like chip
1:19:39on his shoulder that he lost the vote.
1:19:40He's the minority faction, and now we're
1:19:42like at war with each other.
1:19:44Or we can say, "Look, Nick, what do you
1:19:47really need to get along with the rest
1:19:48of us here? How can we have a
1:19:49consensus?"
1:19:51And consensus isn't unanimous all the
1:19:52time? No. But like
1:19:55a consensus organization that also has
1:19:58uh strong leadership that's capable of
1:20:00responding moment to moment and
1:20:03moments of reflection of the whole
1:20:05movement allows for this this whole
1:20:07machine to turn and to run. So, let me
1:20:10let me break it down further.
1:20:14We don't need internal democracy at the
1:20:15local level, at the level of the action
1:20:17group, because anybody can make one and
1:20:19there's no territorial exclusivity.
1:20:22So, if I'm in a group with Kolya and I
1:20:24think he's a bad group leader,
1:20:26I can just make a new group. No one can
1:20:28stop me. Kolya can't tell me nothing.
1:20:32So long as I'm respect respecting the
1:20:33principles of the movement and I'm not
1:20:35like hitting people or like, you know,
1:20:37doing weird sex stuff, you know what I
1:20:39mean? As long as I'm like my hands are
1:20:41clean on that and I'm holding to the
1:20:43program,
1:20:44if Kolya thinks that we should only fly
1:20:46around Tuesday and I say we should do it
1:20:47on Wednesday, nobody can stop me or him
1:20:50from bringing our people to do that.
1:20:53So, there's no need to have internal
1:20:54democracy when you just get rid of
1:20:56territorial exclusivity, first of all.
1:20:58And DSA as my understanding you have
1:21:00territorial exclusivity, right? So, you
1:21:02have to fight things out in your
1:21:03chapters because only one chapter There
1:21:06can only be one chapter.
1:21:08Well, why can't you have two NYC
1:21:09chapters? Why not four? Why not six? Why
1:21:13do they have to all be in one org?
1:21:15Like one one hierarchy, right? I don't
1:21:17really see a reason that that has to be
1:21:19the case a priori in 2026. Maybe in the
1:21:22'70s that's the way they needed to do it
1:21:23or whatever when this stuff was getting
1:21:24off the ground with the mimeograph.
1:21:27Anyway, back to the the front sun belt.
1:21:30So, then above the uh the local action
1:21:32group, there are the departmental uh
1:21:36group chats where the leaders of all of
1:21:38the action groups which have been
1:21:39certified. Basically, that means the
1:21:41national recognizes that it's a real
1:21:43group and not like trolls. So, you know,
1:21:45you like confirm that these people are
1:21:47legit.
1:21:49Like that they actually exist and that
1:21:51they've done a minimum number of
1:21:52actions, right?
1:21:53All those people get put in this group
1:21:55chat on on the Popular Action app. And
1:21:57so, when there's something that happens
1:21:59at the local department, and the
1:22:00department, I guess, would be like the
1:22:01size the size of a small state or a big
1:22:03county in US politics, okay?
1:22:06So, everybody in that group, they're all
1:22:08they all have like a communication
1:22:09circle, but they don't have any
1:22:10authority over anybody or over the local
1:22:12groups. The local groups are all
1:22:13autonomous.
1:22:15Right? Then above that, there's nothing
1:22:17until you get to the national.
1:22:20So, the groups just relate directly to
1:22:22the national.
1:22:25There's no there's no need for
1:22:26intermediate structure.
1:22:28So, well, how how does this all cohere?
1:22:30At the national level, you have Remember
1:22:32the poles and spaces I said? The leaders
1:22:34of all of those, which also operate
1:22:36semi-autonomously from each other, the
1:22:38international pole can't tell the
1:22:40culture pole what to do.
1:22:43That doesn't That doesn't work.
1:22:45They all sit together at the sort of
1:22:46national like presidium, the national uh
1:22:49committee or the the the
1:22:51the
1:22:52the direction.
1:22:54And they come to consensus about things
1:22:58regarding the whole movement. And then,
1:23:00I believe it's like biannually, I'd have
1:23:02to look at the site to remember the
1:23:04exact punctuality of these things. There
1:23:05are uh representative assemblies where
1:23:08militants are drawn from all the
1:23:10different action groups by sortition to
1:23:12go to a national like big meeting where
1:23:15the national leadership proposes a sort
1:23:17of uh balance sheet of here's how we use
1:23:20the money, here's what we did
1:23:22politically, here's what you know, our
1:23:23strategy was, here what we think we got
1:23:25wrong. We're going to propose replacing
1:23:28this this and this person in the
1:23:29leadership with this this and that
1:23:31person, right? All the big moves and
1:23:33shakes come out there.
1:23:35And then, the whole uh membership in
1:23:38their groups talk about it, propose
1:23:39amendments, the the delegates from
1:23:42sortition go up to the national, they
1:23:44all talk about it, and then a synthesis
1:23:47consensus document is proposed to all
1:23:49the militants to vote yes or no, do I
1:23:52think this is good?
1:23:54Right?
1:23:55And typically these documents get like
1:23:57more than 80% of people saying yes.
1:23:59So that they're good.
1:24:00Because it's a very comprehensive
1:24:01consensus building exercise. Right?
1:24:05And you know, so we mix consensus,
1:24:08co-optation, which we should just be
1:24:10honest about, right? Why is the Front
1:24:12Sun Bowed so much more radical than like
1:24:14a lot of other comparative left
1:24:16movements is because it's not voting, do
1:24:19we believe that like Zionism is okay?
1:24:23There's no You know what I mean? Like
1:24:25that's if you put that to a vote,
1:24:28that's different. It depends on the
1:24:29moment you call the vote and blah blah
1:24:30blah, right?
1:24:32So
1:24:33we we end up with a much more based
1:24:35political line and a much more effective
1:24:37leadership because of the structure,
1:24:39which is not democratic in the sense
1:24:41that somebody like uh
1:24:43that that's a real fan of like the
1:24:45Second International style organization
1:24:47would want.
1:24:48But I would argue it's more effective
1:24:49because you basically
1:24:51you like the decision-making stays at
1:24:53the proper level. Like Kolya, you're
1:24:56based in Seattle, just hypothetically.
1:24:59I'm based in New York, right?
1:25:02What do we need to communicate about?
1:25:07Basically nothing.
1:25:09Very few issues do we actually need to
1:25:11like do any kind of consultation on.
1:25:14Right? Like if I'm in Brooklyn and Nick
1:25:17is in in in
1:25:19like in the Bronx, what do we really
1:25:21need to talk about?
1:25:24It's not that much, actually. Right? And
1:25:27so like why would we have a big
1:25:29structure to centralize stuff and to do
1:25:31this kind of hierarchical management
1:25:33when it's not really necessary for a lot
1:25:35of things. Do you see what I mean? And
1:25:37like do we Are we going to have a vote
1:25:39every time that like somebody says that
1:25:41we're racist, like how to respond? DSA
1:25:43doesn't do that. DSA has a national
1:25:46steering committee, right? That that
1:25:47handles sort of
1:25:49ongoing live events and stuff like that.
1:25:52The difference I guess would be that
1:25:53rather than do a slate where we vote on
1:25:56internal actions
1:25:56>> buying, not through, you know, these
1:25:59formal structures, right?
1:26:02>> Yeah, it it it comes also through buying
1:26:04in the sense of like
1:26:05Yeah, go ahead, sorry.
1:26:08>> Well, if we were to, you know, try to
1:26:10steel man the the opposing argument here
1:26:12or whatever, um
1:26:14the
1:26:15and I think there's a
1:26:17there's an unconvincing version of this
1:26:19and then there's a legitimate, you know,
1:26:21liability to to contend with. The
1:26:24unconvincing version for me, but I think
1:26:27we should put it out there, is
1:26:29well, that puts decision-making in the
1:26:31hands of a very small number of people.
1:26:33How do we know they're not going to be
1:26:34co-opted?
1:26:36Um
1:26:38the more convincing version is
1:26:40what if Mélenchon doesn't wake up
1:26:42tomorrow?
1:26:43That's actually a real problem, right?
1:26:45How can we
1:26:47um ensure that the leadership is
1:26:49reproducing itself in a way that's
1:26:50sustainable?
1:26:52>> So, that's that's not a problem at all
1:26:53and I'm glad I'm very thankful you give
1:26:55me the opportunity to put people's fears
1:26:57to bed. I mean, look, it's a problem in
1:26:59the sense that he's the presidential
1:27:00candidate right now. So, if he dies
1:27:02tomorrow, like that would be a big
1:27:03problem for the presidential campaign.
1:27:05But that would be the case of any group
1:27:07at this point. Like if if Gabriel Attal
1:27:10were to perish tomorrow,
1:27:12uh his whole camp would be in disarray
1:27:15as well. Like that's that's just the
1:27:16logistics of campaign problem. That's
1:27:18not really a organizational structure.
1:27:20Like if Kamala had fallen down, you
1:27:22know, in like
1:27:24June, that would have been really bad
1:27:26for her campaign, right?
1:27:29The reality is that the national
1:27:30coordination level, all these poles and
1:27:31spaces because they're semi-autonomous,
1:27:33they are anti-fragile and resilient.
1:27:36Typically in the France on Bout, I
1:27:37didn't talk about this, maybe I should
1:27:38have, we tend to like to have pairs, we
1:27:41call pairs of leadership. Typically it's
1:27:46male-female pair, but it can be like two
1:27:48women or non-binary people or whatever.
1:27:50It can't just be two guys though. You
1:27:52have to have, you know, it can't be an
1:27:53old boys club.
1:27:54That's a That's a strong rule.
1:27:56And
1:27:58generally speaking, the way it works
1:28:00is uh
1:28:02every action group has a paired
1:28:04leadership.
1:28:05Right?
1:28:06The poles and spaces of the movement
1:28:09have paired leadership.
1:28:11So, at the national uh level, you have,
1:28:14for example, international pole, you
1:28:15have Arno Li Gaal, who have translated
1:28:17for New International, and Sophia
1:28:19Chikirou, who is the the the
1:28:20presidential or sorry, the mayor of
1:28:22candidate for Paris this year, right?
1:28:25It's a male-female pair of leadership.
1:28:28So, if something were to happen to Arno,
1:28:30Sophia is still there.
1:28:32And vice versa, right? Jean-Luc, his
1:28:35formal role in the movement is not like
1:28:37guru. He co-leads the Bosey Institute,
1:28:39which is the Unbowed think tank, with
1:28:42Clemence Guette,
1:28:43who you you probably saw on Twitter with
1:28:45the cigarette and the coffee and the
1:28:46shades talking to the cops. Right? So,
1:28:49Clemence and Jean-Luc run the Bosey
1:28:51Institute. If something happens to
1:28:53Jean-Luc, Clemence is there. And
1:28:56honestly, um Jean-Luc holding everything
1:28:59up was true when the movement started.
1:29:02That's true. I think 10 years ago, he
1:29:04was really holding it up on his
1:29:06shoulders.
1:29:07Today, he's raised a whole system of
1:29:09cadre around him
1:29:11that he has people to handle stuff.
1:29:14He has people who can go out and do the
1:29:15media the media hits. He has people that
1:29:17can go out and talk about the different
1:29:19topics. He doesn't have to be an expert
1:29:21in everything.
1:29:22And there are moments like he can be
1:29:23interviewed and like I don't think he
1:29:24knows every detail that's in the program
1:29:26cuz the program is big.
1:29:28Like a lot of people worked on it, you
1:29:30know?
1:29:31So, he doesn't need to be, you know,
1:29:32he's not the guy. He's that guy in the
1:29:34sense that we love him and he's a world
1:29:36historic left figure like Jean Jaures or
1:29:39I don't know, like Auguste Blanqui or
1:29:40something like this.
1:29:41But he's, you know, he's not um
1:29:45indispensable for the movement to
1:29:46function. Like he will eventually die.
1:29:49And when he dies, either the movement
1:29:51will have fulfilled its objectives and
1:29:52sort of liquidated itself into the
1:29:54future in a way that's unknowable to us
1:29:56now. This is very Blanquist notion, but
1:29:59this is something I do believe as a
1:30:00revolutionary. Oh, and I forgot to
1:30:01mention, I'm sorry. When I was talking
1:30:03about the radical left, the radical left
1:30:04is explicitly revolutionary.
1:30:07Jean-Luc believes in the citizens
1:30:08revolution. He believes that this con-
1:30:11this urban network conflict is itself a
1:30:13revolutionary movement that will
1:30:15overthrow the the the status quo in the
1:30:18present world order. Right? It will
1:30:20simply do it in this democratic means,
1:30:23right? Rather than doing it by armed
1:30:25insurrection as in previous times. But
1:30:28again, I I I said this to Todd, I think
1:30:30I said this on this wreckage, I'll say
1:30:31it to you now.
1:30:33Blanqui himself
1:30:35modulated his approach to revolution
1:30:37based on his context.
1:30:40Sometimes he stood for elections,
1:30:42sometimes he stood up with guns, right?
1:30:44So, there's nothing about like communist
1:30:46strategy that requires
1:30:48uh saying like the only way to
1:30:50revolution is armed insurrection. That's
1:30:52just a-historical and it's completely
1:30:54impractical and
1:30:56it's not really even
1:30:57something that I think makes a lot of
1:30:59sense in 2026. We can come back to that
1:31:01later if you want, but I just think it's
1:31:03important to remind all the radical
1:31:04people on Twitter that their like their
1:31:06dogmas about these things are not as as
1:31:09uh set in stone as they would like them
1:31:11to be.
1:31:12But to go back to your your core issue
1:31:13about Jean-Luc and his role, like yeah,
1:31:15he's very charismatic, important person.
1:31:19We also are dealing with a Fifth
1:31:20Republic that was built for Charles de
1:31:22Gaulle and is a basically a presidential
1:31:24monarchy. So, having a charismatic,
1:31:27strong central figure corresponds to the
1:31:29system that we are trying to take power
1:31:31in.
1:31:32And to abolish.
1:31:34And I don't believe I have no like
1:31:37there's no doubt in my mind that when
1:31:39elected president, Jean-Luc is going to
1:31:41do what he promised to do.
1:31:43But that's also something I'm taking on
1:31:45faith.
1:31:46And that might make people kind of upset
1:31:48or like hope and faith and like
1:31:50believing in people and having a
1:31:51personal relationship with people, I
1:31:52think makes some people on the left
1:31:53upset, and I understand it. But, like
1:31:57you want to go back to the Second
1:31:58International, like people were
1:32:00committing assassination attempts to
1:32:02avenge Jean Jaurès. Like, crazed
1:32:04anarchists were doing that.
1:32:06Like, people had a deep personal
1:32:07relationship with their leadership, and
1:32:09to pretend that people don't have that
1:32:10or not going to have that is just
1:32:13you don't know what people are like.
1:32:18>> Right, exactly. And I think the
1:32:21the retreat into formality disguises
1:32:24and represses what's what still
1:32:26continues to happen, which is that very
1:32:27same form of identification among the
1:32:29social clicks that are really in power
1:32:31in society. Um
1:32:33and so I think it's it's quite honest
1:32:36and refreshing to have a party organized
1:32:38the way that LFI is organized.
1:32:41Um
1:32:42>> And it's not a party, it's a movement.
1:32:45>> Apologies.
1:32:46>> pay any dues, there's no card.
1:32:49Right? You just go on an app
1:32:51and just like join a group.
1:32:53We don't have like a central list of
1:32:55everybody that's in it per se, right?
1:32:59You see what I mean?
1:33:00>> Yeah, I guess for us Yeah, I guess for
1:33:01us a party is just like whoever like
1:33:04coerces a collective will, which is what
1:33:06I see LFI doing. Like, yeah, we we
1:33:08definitely are against like dogmatism on
1:33:10like the party form.
1:33:12>> Would you consider MAGA to be a party?
1:33:16>> I think so.
1:33:17>> By Nick's definition, yes. Yeah, I think
1:33:20so.
1:33:21>> Yeah, okay, so in that sense it's a
1:33:22party. It's a political force, as we say
1:33:25in French.
1:33:26>> A historical party.
1:33:29>> Yeah, I think people I think people in
1:33:31DSA are Oh, wait.
1:33:34>> No, go, go, go.
1:33:35>> in DSA are like over-optimistic about
1:33:37like about being a party, and I think
1:33:39until this relationship with the
1:33:41Democrats has more rupture and we have
1:33:43more
1:33:44political autonomy, I think that's still
1:33:46an open question.
1:33:48>> So, I I would agree with you, Day, that
1:33:51the uh that the French have about is
1:33:53like related to the historic party, but
1:33:56that that is a hot take.
1:33:58Uh that I think a lot of people will get
1:33:59really pissed off about. But, like why
1:34:01would it be, right?
1:34:02>> That's my favorite
1:34:03>> all this matter? Like
1:34:06For me, like
1:34:08the whole point is just like does it
1:34:09work or not?
1:34:10Does it correspond to the social body or
1:34:12not?
1:34:13Clearly, it does.
1:34:15Because we're we're the second place to
1:34:17win the presidential election.
1:34:19And we have all these hundreds of
1:34:21thousands of militants. And we're
1:34:23playing a critical role in this ongoing
1:34:25social movement. And I think we're
1:34:27playing the role correctly. Like I I
1:34:29think the people that are like aping uh
1:34:31Marxist-Leninism really need to think
1:34:34through what they're doing.
1:34:36Like, you're going to run the union?
1:34:39You're going to run the media? You're
1:34:40going to run the social movement? What
1:34:42do you mean you're going to lead? Who's
1:34:43going to lead this protest? The students
1:34:46already have their leadership. They
1:34:48already have their student unions. And
1:34:49that leadership is contested internally.
1:34:52There's There's like far left flanks of
1:34:54the students going out and like trying
1:34:56to burn [ __ ] down.
1:34:59So, what do you mean you're going to
1:35:00lead that? You're going to lead those
1:35:01people? Sorry, go ahead.
1:35:04>> You know, one way to think about whether
1:35:05something is a party, I mean this is a
1:35:07semantic argument, but is is whether it
1:35:10has these
1:35:11these organizing effects of other
1:35:13political actors.
1:35:15And clearly, and I think this is what
1:35:17the
1:35:19what you're calling the ultra left
1:35:20doesn't recognize is that they
1:35:22themselves are downstream of the actions
1:35:24of LFI and obviously the protests.
1:35:27And their whole political world and
1:35:29landscape is determined by these
1:35:32you know, actions of other agents and
1:35:34subjects that are that are, you know,
1:35:36taking shape in real time.
1:35:39Um and so, what does that do to their
1:35:40picture of the political landscape?
1:35:42Well, I don't think it
1:35:47Like, I would argue that what LFI wants
1:35:48to do is be downstream.
1:35:52Cuz what LFI wants to be is the
1:35:53battering ram of the like social
1:35:56movement into the institution, right?
1:35:59So, LFI want Like, LFI wants the
1:36:01students to say, "What are your demands?
1:36:02Tell us your demands.
1:36:05How can we formulate your demands in the
1:36:06program?
1:36:08How can we help your struggle be
1:36:10legitimate? Like when Jean-Luc I'm sorry
1:36:12if I'm like contradicting what you
1:36:13didn't mean to say, Kolya. But
1:36:16whatever, I'm an [ __ ] That's what I
1:36:17do.
1:36:18>> good. It's helpful. It's helpful.
1:36:19>> When Jean-Luc comes out on TV and is
1:36:22like, "The students' demands are
1:36:23perfectly reasonable.
1:36:26Can you imagine? Like I don't know how
1:36:27old you guys are, but when like I was a
1:36:28student and I was trying to occupy my
1:36:30school, if Bernie Sanders had come out
1:36:32on TV and been like, "The students'
1:36:34demands are perfectly reasonable. The
1:36:36police are completely irresponsible.
1:36:39Like I call on all the parents of
1:36:41students to come and protect the student
1:36:43occupation." Like
1:36:45That move That move is crazy. That move
1:36:48like
1:36:49gives so much support to the kids at a
1:36:52critical moment, right? It gives them so
1:36:55much support.
1:36:56And it doesn't like
1:36:59What does it cost his credibility to
1:37:01like the bourgeois that hate him
1:37:03already?
1:37:04Do you know?
1:37:05>> Yeah.
1:37:05>> And is Jean-Luc out there calling for
1:37:07looting and rioting? No, he doesn't
1:37:09believe in that. And like people can get
1:37:11mad at him, but he's been saying the
1:37:12same thing for a long time, which is
1:37:13that I stand I think during the LFI he
1:37:16said something like uh
1:37:18you know, I'm not calling for people to
1:37:19get on the barricades. And in any case,
1:37:21the barricades don't need me to call for
1:37:23them.
1:37:26The The barricades are not the fruit of
1:37:28Jean-Luc
1:37:30action, right? Jean-Luc is an actor in
1:37:33the social situation. I think that's
1:37:34also something that maybe really
1:37:37kills a kind of arrogant like a
1:37:38Bolshevik sin, a Bolshevik advice,
1:37:41which is to think of yourself as the
1:37:43avant-garde. Like Jean-Luc is extremely
1:37:45against the idea of being an
1:37:47avant-garde.
1:37:49Very opposed to that.
1:37:51The France about is not an avant-garde.
1:37:53The France about is a political force
1:37:56with in this ongoing social contestation
1:38:01that has its own autonomy and respects
1:38:03the autonomy of the social movements.
1:38:05And it respects the suit of Mont La
1:38:06Terre, the the earth uprisings movement.
1:38:09It respects the student movement. It
1:38:11respects the feminist movement. It
1:38:12respects the trade unions. So that also
1:38:15means that trade unions don't get to
1:38:17tell the Unbowed how they're going to
1:38:19handle their parliamentary
1:38:21procedure.
1:38:22So when it comes to the retirement age
1:38:24question,
1:38:25the leadership of the CGT can hue and
1:38:26cry. They ain't going to dictate to
1:38:28Unbowed deputies how they're going to
1:38:30vote or how they're going to organize
1:38:32the vote or what they're going to say on
1:38:33the floor.
1:38:34Because there's
1:38:35like the autonomy has to go two ways,
1:38:38right? There has to be a respect in both
1:38:39senses.
1:38:41I just I think like
1:38:44I understand the American left was in a
1:38:46real bad way for a long time. I
1:38:47participated in it. I'm very aware of
1:38:49that. You know, I'm not
1:38:50I don't think I have a sort of jaundiced
1:38:52view of that.
1:38:53But I really think it's a mistake for
1:38:55people to just like jump back to the
1:38:57Second International and not think about
1:38:59what was learned in the '90s and 2000s
1:39:01and 2010s in terms of consensus as
1:39:04important, autonomy as important, the
1:39:07social struggles as critical, the
1:39:09contemporary conjuncture as critical.
1:39:12Like you're not going to have rebuild
1:39:13unions and do like I went to IWW
1:39:16meetings. It was a LARP.
1:39:19They did some good work. I'm not saying
1:39:20they didn't do good work, but the form
1:39:22of IWW does not make sense in the 21st
1:39:24century.
1:39:25And if DSA wants to be like the SPD,
1:39:28which that form didn't even work in the
1:39:30US when they tried to import it then,
1:39:32it's not going to work now.
1:39:36>> Also didn't really work in Germany.
1:39:39>> Also didn't work in Germany.
1:39:41>> state.
1:39:41>> Sorry.
1:39:43>> But yes.
1:39:44>> Like it failed it failed spectacularly
1:39:46repeatedly. Like say what you will about
1:39:48the French Communist Party, the French
1:39:50Communist Party of all like of all the
1:39:52sort of ML groups in the West did pretty
1:39:55good overall. They didn't build any
1:39:57gulags.
1:39:58No gulag.
1:40:00They liberated the country from fascism.
1:40:03They were a a major factor in the
1:40:05creation of social security and the
1:40:08constitutional settlement post-war.
1:40:11And then they got like mayors and won a
1:40:13whole bunch of seats and got like
1:40:14elected and were like a major political
1:40:16force through 20th century. Like they
1:40:18did pretty good on their own terms. And
1:40:21Eurocommunism and all that stuff still
1:40:23failed. Right? So like
1:40:28I just I like if I if I heard people
1:40:30being like in the D in the DSA being
1:40:32like we need to be like the French
1:40:33Communist Party. I'd be like you guys
1:40:34are on drugs. Like what are you talking
1:40:36about? Like you don't have to be like
1:40:39the French Section Internationale. Just
1:40:40don't don't repeat failed forms of the
1:40:43past. Don't do this like grave digging,
1:40:46you know, uh exercise. I think that's
1:40:48insane.
1:40:50>> Yeah, it's it's very funny that you
1:40:52know, we we can go back and and read
1:40:55Marx and uh look at all the old
1:40:58historical texts and
1:41:00you know, uh how much he predicted of
1:41:04just like the same of what's happening
1:41:06today and pretty much eventually it's
1:41:09just like spelling out how it would
1:41:10eventually happen like the traditions of
1:41:12dead generations and I am not a Marxist
1:41:15and then nobody learns from history and
1:41:17then sure enough
1:41:18nobody learns from history, everyone
1:41:21larps as Marxists and uh uh it's like
1:41:24all the uh the same problems over and
1:41:27over again. And I feel where uh I feel
1:41:31uh geese uh at least in the US context
1:41:33and uh I'll I'll I'll be paraphrasing
1:41:37Collier's writing on this specifically.
1:41:39Where I feel like we have uh tried to
1:41:42make a unique intervention is uh looking
1:41:46at the traditional model of the the base
1:41:49and the superstructure and uh trying to
1:41:53uh weave in the uh psychosocial
1:41:57components that have been missing from a
1:42:00lot of the analysis of Marxism in recent
1:42:04years. And really incorporating the
1:42:08aspect of identity around things and the
1:42:12inner machinations of people like in the
1:42:14LaClau in sense.
1:42:16I I really do feel like that is
1:42:19the kind of the name of the game at this
1:42:21point in time as far as going or as far
1:42:25as forming political subjects goes
1:42:27because
1:42:29anything that Marx and Engels wrote as
1:42:33you had mentioned was
1:42:35far more based in the
1:42:37center of struggles around the
1:42:39burgeoning industrial proletariat as a
1:42:43agitated political subject and that
1:42:46identity was formed through those
1:42:48material activities. But as production
1:42:51has shifted, as the proletariat has
1:42:53become diffused, as various social
1:42:56groups has formed, as
1:42:58the the general strata has become much
1:43:00more diverse, there's far far less unity
1:43:06as as far as forming political subjects
1:43:08goes. And
1:43:10I feel that where movements today like
1:43:13LFI
1:43:14have really succeeded is in trying to
1:43:18incorporate these things and
1:43:21form broader left populist political
1:43:24subjects. I think it's really
1:43:26fascinating how
1:43:28those are really the only productive
1:43:31kinds of movements we can see today that
1:43:33do incorporate this these components of
1:43:35identity and not like
1:43:37you know just focusing on larp I guess
1:43:40you could say.
1:43:41So it's really it's really cool to see
1:43:43and it's my hope that we can have more
1:43:45of it here in the states.
1:43:48You also have to be
1:43:49>> to bring back
1:43:50bring back the mimeograph bring back the
1:43:52mimeograph though. I think Bring back
1:43:55the mimeograph though.
1:43:57>> You can use a mimeograph if you want. It
1:43:59could be like an anti-AI move to
1:44:01mimeographed flyers. And like in the
1:44:03unbound you can make your own flyers
1:44:04there's nobody like policing you about
1:44:06that. There's actually a a less policing
1:44:08than in the traditional left groups in
1:44:10general. Like, if you're on the program
1:44:12and you try some like cockamamie scheme
1:44:15that's not like wantonly
1:44:18illegal or like something really crazy,
1:44:21like people just let you try stuff.
1:44:22Like, you can just go and say I'm going
1:44:24to go flyer at the, you know, at the
1:44:26subway at 2:00 a.m. and try to get, you
1:44:28know, whoever is passing by if you
1:44:29really want to, you know, you don't have
1:44:30to convince anybody to let you do that.
1:44:33I was going to say about the wokeness,
1:44:35I think the strategy of
1:44:37uh what we can sometimes see in the
1:44:39pages of a certain American uh quote
1:44:42unquote left uh media is this sort of
1:44:45like willingness to drop
1:44:48um drop the gays, you know, immigrants,
1:44:51whatever. And just try, you know, we'll
1:44:52just like low-key. I mean, the Democrats
1:44:54did this already. Like, just you know,
1:44:56[ __ ] them, you know, whatever. Like, we
1:44:58need to get the quote unquote white
1:45:00working class. We can't be associated
1:45:01with the the uh PMC and all this kind of
1:45:04like pseudo analysis. Whereas, like, the
1:45:07France on about is just like, "Oh, you
1:45:08want to talk about the great
1:45:09replacement? Every generation replaces
1:45:11the one that preceded it. To oppose such
1:45:14a great replacement would be like sick
1:45:17and degenerate. Like,
1:45:19of course, you have to replace the
1:45:21generations that preceded it. That's
1:45:22what all of human history is. You know,
1:45:24it's just like
1:45:26take the take the conflict and just
1:45:28fight at the conflict. And just be like,
1:45:30"Actually, trans people, you should be
1:45:31able to just go to city hall and get
1:45:33your papers done fast and free."
1:45:37You know, like
1:45:37>> Yeah.
1:45:38>> Transition fast and free. We have
1:45:39stickers, protect the dolls, vote
1:45:41Mélenchon.
1:45:43It's protect the dolls in English. They
1:45:44know that the queers speak English.
1:45:46You know what I mean? Like, they know
1:45:47that the lingo has been
1:45:50internationalized.
1:45:52And like, we just own that. And we we
1:45:54don't we don't have fear about that. We
1:45:55have people that are openly religious.
1:45:58And like, in the European left, oh my
1:45:59god, you have like Muslims. You're a
1:46:02[ __ ] Are you the Muslim Brotherhood?
1:46:03Are you ISIS? Like, what are you doing?
1:46:05Like, actually, Muslims are normal
1:46:07peoples. Some of them are leftists.
1:46:08Christians can be leftists. Jews can be
1:46:10leftists. Atheists can be leftists,
1:46:12atheists can be reactionary. Being
1:46:14atheist doesn't automatically make you
1:46:17you know, solid politically.
1:46:19Like just a lot of this old left craft
1:46:21needs to be like flushed out of the
1:46:23system. All the class first stuff needs
1:46:25to be flushed out of the system. The
1:46:27class reductionism needs to be flushed
1:46:29out of the system. If you're not going
1:46:31to be woke and conjunctural in 21st
1:46:33century, go home. Take your ball, put it
1:46:35in the garage. Like you're done. You're
1:46:37finished, right? So you got to do all
1:46:39these things. And like why? Because
1:46:42that's what actually motivates people.
1:46:43Like you want to have a psychosocial
1:46:45analysis? Jean-Luc goes out and talks
1:46:47about that kids need to have the right
1:46:48to see the stars.
1:46:53Like you have to have a right to be
1:46:54lazy.
1:46:56You have to have like the the the
1:46:57ecosystem, all the living
1:47:00needs to be protected, not just like my
1:47:02constituents. All life on Earth.
1:47:06You have to have a discourse that's
1:47:07capable of that.
1:47:08If you want to like really motivate
1:47:11people to feel like they're part of
1:47:12something and that they're they're not
1:47:14just like
1:47:15getting I One of the people I hate the
1:47:16most in French politics is a guy named
1:47:18François Ruffin, who is I think like
1:47:21I don't know.
1:47:22Sometimes I think if certain Jacobin
1:47:24authors spoke French, they would like
1:47:26love François Ruffin.
1:47:27And François Ruffin had this thing after
1:47:29the 2024 elections where he was like
1:47:30advocating for a soft left kind of
1:47:33collab with the Macronists where he was
1:47:36like
1:47:37the left needs to learn to conjugate the
1:47:39word win. Conjugate gagner. If there's
1:47:43only scraps from the table, we'll take
1:47:46scraps. If there's crumbs, we'll take
1:47:48crumbs. And it's like you are pathetic.
1:47:52You have no support. You have no basis
1:47:54because you lack all energy, all
1:47:57dynamism, all ability. And now Derek
1:47:59Chauvin is going to be mad at me. Nobody
1:48:01is going to like hope listening to that.
1:48:03Like we'll give you
1:48:06literal crumbs if that's the best we can
1:48:08do. We have to conjugate the word win.
1:48:11Like
1:48:12you're insane. That's not how politics
1:48:14works. And look at this bozo. Where is
1:48:16he in the presidential? Nowhere.
1:48:19He's everywhere in the media for years.
1:48:21Could Rufin could Rufin take over or
1:48:23Melenchon Rufin Rufin Rufin nowhere. He
1:48:26has no support. Right?
1:48:29Like
1:48:30the media's fake, people.
1:48:32All their like discourse is fake. So,
1:48:35anyway, I'm starting to get ranty. It's
1:48:36getting quite late. I You should ask me
1:48:38questions and not just let me go off.
1:48:42>> Well, there was one thing I wanted to
1:48:43jump in with. Um you know, I was
1:48:45watching Melenchon's conversation with
1:48:47Chantal Mouffe.
1:48:48Uh you know, I'm basically just reading
1:48:50the English transcript.
1:48:52And
1:48:53there's this there's this traumatic
1:48:55element to the way that Laclau and
1:48:58Mouffe think of political subjectivity,
1:49:00which is that when you constitute a
1:49:02popular subject, there is no guarantee
1:49:04that that's going to be a leftist
1:49:05subject, right? That could be a rightist
1:49:07subject, and we've seen that many times.
1:49:09But I like the way that that Melenchon
1:49:12got out of this conundrum, even even if
1:49:14I don't necessarily agree with it.
1:49:16But he says that, you know, reactionary
1:49:18politics is essentially the creation of
1:49:21false conflicts,
1:49:23um which occur when the people shirks
1:49:26its duties to produce itself as a
1:49:29collective will,
1:49:30um to produce a collective hegemony.
1:49:33Um so, basically, this this rightist
1:49:35move is this recoiling from from the
1:49:38responsibility to become hegemonic as as
1:49:41a people.
1:49:43Um
1:49:44And so, yeah, I like I really like this
1:49:46this dance he's doing with
1:49:49with uh
1:49:50you know, hegemony theory and and and
1:49:53and populism and
1:49:55and all that. I think it's very
1:49:55productive, if nothing else.
1:49:59>> I appreciate that. I'm sure he'd
1:50:00appreciate that. And uh
1:50:03you know, I am a little bit um
1:50:05I might be rhetorically heavy-handed
1:50:06talking with you just cuz I'm trying to
1:50:07make something clear,
1:50:09but I should also say that the France
1:50:10and Baden no way is seeking to
1:50:13bolshevize the international scene and
1:50:15like impose its doctrine on anybody. I
1:50:18just think that there's interesting
1:50:19things that are going on that people
1:50:21should know about and study and consider
1:50:23and like
1:50:25I think some of it basically DSA kind of
1:50:28people could take up with really no
1:50:30modification. Like you could just do an
1:50:32app. Like call Connor Mulhern, get a DSA
1:50:35app together that does everything you
1:50:37need to organize in DSA in one place.
1:50:39That that's like
1:50:41I think that's pretty low low
1:50:43hanging fruit that could be done that
1:50:45could help.
1:50:46Um I think
1:50:50the overall posture of the elected. I
1:50:52mean, a lot of this comes down to
1:50:53individual elected sort of culture. And
1:50:55this is also one of the reasons why I
1:50:56think Mélenchon has lasting impact.
1:51:00He's not just a leader of a faction or
1:51:02like a talking head, but he's a theorist
1:51:04and also a teacher.
1:51:06And the people that he's taught like
1:51:09people that have come up under him like
1:51:11Rima Hassan
1:51:12is extremely legitimate because she goes
1:51:14out and goes to Gaza. And Mélenchon went
1:51:16to Gaza on a boat to try to feed the
1:51:19people
1:51:20to break the blockade.
1:51:22Right? Taly Bakary puts his body in the
1:51:24line.
1:51:25When all these elected are putting in
1:51:27the body in the line, they're showing
1:51:28leadership. A whole generation of
1:51:30leaders, young leaders.
1:51:32I'm saying I know people that are
1:51:35in their 20s and their 30s who are
1:51:37national figures.
1:51:39Who are big leaders.
1:51:41And where is that coming out of from
1:51:43DSA? Does DSA have a think tank?
1:51:46Does DSA have a cadre formation program
1:51:49that take hundreds of people every year
1:51:51and give them intensive year-long
1:51:53trainings on how to be a good organizer
1:51:55and how to be a potential candidate and
1:51:58you know, like historical materialism
1:52:00and ecology and feminism and you know,
1:52:03anti-racist struggle and
1:52:04anti-imperialism and all this stuff? No,
1:52:06they're not doing that as far as I know.
1:52:08But like why can't DSA do that?
1:52:10Could DSA do that? That's something I
1:52:11would propose to DSA from as a outside
1:52:14sympathizer, you know, perspective.
1:52:17Uh could can DSA do as we say in French,
1:52:19borderize the
1:52:21the American political scene. Can we
1:52:24have people show up in Congress and wave
1:52:27a Palestinian flag? Can we have people
1:52:30take the mic and say, "Donald Trump,
1:52:32you're a racist piece of shit." on live
1:52:34TV? Can we have you know like
1:52:36why are people not calling Trump like a
1:52:38racist and a piece of [ __ ] regular?
1:52:41He is both of those things.
1:52:44Like why why is that allowed? Why like
1:52:46again, AOC, why did you not go on the
1:52:48flotilla?
1:52:51Like what did you have to do that was
1:52:52more important than the flotilla?
1:52:54>> That's uh that's that's that's what I
1:52:56really what I've seen from Jean-Luc's
1:52:59speeches.
1:53:00I think that is what I really really
1:53:03appreciate about him is how he has this
1:53:07total disregard for what I've come to
1:53:10call, you know, political pomposity, the
1:53:13the sort of like reification of the sort
1:53:16of neoliberal tone and rhetoric, uh
1:53:21you know, sensible respectability
1:53:24politics, whatever you want to call it.
1:53:26Like I he just the way he gets up and
1:53:28just kind of throws it all out the
1:53:30window, it's so fascinating. And we we
1:53:34have yet to I think really get figures
1:53:36who have begun to embody that. Even Mom
1:53:39Donny, despite his popularity, maintains
1:53:42that same respectability and um
1:53:46uh maybe even goes too far as to his
1:53:49magnanimous nature.
1:53:51Um but Jean-Luc, the way that he he just
1:53:55he just gets up and and and smashes the
1:53:58whole conception of it. It's like such a
1:54:01breath of fresh air compared to
1:54:03everything else that I think we've seen
1:54:04in recent years. Um and we need we need
1:54:07more of that. We need far more figures
1:54:09who are willing to throw political
1:54:11pompousness out the window and be a
1:54:14little a little crazy on stage because I
1:54:16feel like more people are going to
1:54:18resonate with someone who feels little
1:54:19crazy
1:54:21compared to uh
1:54:23you know, the average uh act that gets
1:54:26put up there because I think everybody
1:54:27feels a little bit crazy right now
1:54:29dealing with politics in general. So,
1:54:30somebody who shares those feelings
1:54:32goes back into that component of the uh
1:54:35identity injection into the base and
1:54:38superstructure component because people
1:54:40feel represented. They feel they feel
1:54:41represented by people who are like, you
1:54:44know, hey, is this not crazy? Is this
1:54:46does this not require a crazy response
1:54:48considering everything that's going on
1:54:50from climate change, the cost of living
1:54:52to immigration, to fascism, et cetera.
1:54:55So,
1:54:57uh I I I I'd like to you know, look more
1:55:00into uh that in the future as to how
1:55:03figures can really begin to embody that.
1:55:05It's it's fascinating.
1:55:08>> I want to give two examples of recent
1:55:09interventions that Jean-Luc made to
1:55:11illustrate what kind of leader he is.
1:55:13Not to just praise him as a great man,
1:55:15but to show what kind of I think
1:55:16leadership is necessary at this
1:55:17conjunction.
1:55:19So, recently Jean-Luc gave a speech in
1:55:21the city of Clermont-Ferrand.
1:55:23I think the speech went pretty viral on
1:55:25Twitter. I saw a lot of uh Anglo uh
1:55:28Anglophone leftists retweeting it. And
1:55:30at one point, one of the clips that went
1:55:31viral is when he said,
1:55:33"I dig a hole, GDP goes up. I fill it
1:55:36in, GDP goes up. I get in my car, GDP
1:55:40goes up. I drive it into a wall, GDP
1:55:43goes up."
1:55:44Like,
1:55:45this is a form of popular education.
1:55:48It's not a demagogic discourse. He's
1:55:50explaining to the normal person who's
1:55:53going to out there who's going to see
1:55:54that on Tik Tok.
1:55:55He's explaining to them why economic
1:55:57indicators of like orthodox economics
1:56:00are [ __ ]
1:56:01How what do they really mean? How do
1:56:03they work?
1:56:04That's critical. That's one of his
1:56:05critical roles as leader is as teacher.
1:56:08Teaching the the masses, teaching the
1:56:10public, right?
1:56:12And to do that, you actually have to be
1:56:14grounded in your analysis and in your
1:56:17ability to speak. One of the things that
1:56:18Jean-Luc learned very early as a
1:56:20Trotskyist militant was how to speak
1:56:21without taking notes. Not reading from a
1:56:23page, but to speak
1:56:26like an orator. And oratory is not some
1:56:29like lost art. There's no reason why AOC
1:56:32can't be a better orator.
1:56:34And she could, if she wanted to be a
1:56:36great leader, she could
1:56:37work on her oratory.
1:56:40Another moment of Jean-Luc that I think
1:56:42is very telling.
1:56:43Uh this was a a while ago. This I I
1:56:45can't I can't remember if it was in I
1:56:47believe it was
1:56:48in September. I just forget what date it
1:56:50was.
1:56:51Um there was the first presidential
1:56:54debate. And this is such a a clown show.
1:56:56Unless I'm mistaken, there wasn't even a
1:56:58Socialist Party representative there
1:57:01because they were they still hadn't
1:57:02found a candidate. Like it's just so so
1:57:04silly. They're missing debate
1:57:06opportunities because they're doing
1:57:07internal democracy.
1:57:09Anyway.
1:57:11So on the debate stage, you have a bunch
1:57:12of right-wing [ __ ] and Jean-Luc and
1:57:14the Green Party candidate, who is kind
1:57:17of like a confused uh
1:57:18center-leftist.
1:57:20And it's the debate organized by the
1:57:23bosses' union.
1:57:25Okay, the MEDEF.
1:57:28And they're all talking about like, "How
1:57:29can we, you know, increase economic
1:57:31growth and reduce costs of labor and
1:57:33blah blah blah?"
1:57:35And this is like the worst possible
1:57:38situation for Jean-Luc. This is like
1:57:39real enemy territory. None of these
1:57:41people support him. None of these people
1:57:43are going to vote for him. They're
1:57:44either going to vote for the far right
1:57:46or the right. You know what I mean? Or
1:57:47maybe a centrist candidate if they're
1:57:49like personally homosexual or something.
1:57:52You know what I mean? Like they're going
1:57:53to
1:57:54They're going to do one of those moves.
1:57:56And at one point, Jean-Luc comes up and
1:57:58is like,
1:58:01"The real the real thing
1:58:03is that to get out of this economic
1:58:05crisis that all of these people are
1:58:07preparing for you with all of their
1:58:09austerity and their cutting of uh the
1:58:11means of people to support this national
1:58:14economy that we have,
1:58:15you're going to pay this really harshly.
1:58:18And the only way for this country to get
1:58:20out of the crisis is for salaries to go
1:58:22up.
1:58:23Okay?
1:58:24You're going to have to raise salaries."
1:58:27All of the bosses broke out laughing.
1:58:31The whole audience started laughing at
1:58:32him when he talked about raising
1:58:34people's salaries.
1:58:36And he just stood there on the tribune,
1:58:38stood tall on his stood on business.
1:58:41It was like,
1:58:42"You're going to laugh yourself sick
1:58:44when you put this country in a
1:58:45recession." And just like smacked them
1:58:47down. And that little exchange, right?
1:58:50Went extremely viral. The next day all
1:58:53the bosses were like, "Oh, you know, it
1:58:56was a bad luck." And like even the sort
1:58:58of like neolib
1:59:00uh very annoying like uh TV hosts were
1:59:03like,
1:59:04"You really made like people hate you.
1:59:06You realize that." Like talking to the
1:59:07bosses you're like, "People really think
1:59:09you're scum, you know, like you're
1:59:11hated, right?" And like that laugh in
1:59:14his face and his indignation. Imagine
1:59:16you work all day and you come home and
1:59:19you like look in your phone and that's
1:59:20what you see. Is all of these [ __ ]
1:59:22laughing at the idea that you might get
1:59:24yours. And then there's somebody
1:59:25standing there being like, "You're going
1:59:27to destroy the country."
1:59:29Right? And just bringing the conflict,
1:59:31right? Like politics is conflictual.
1:59:34That conflict that conflict we have to
1:59:36own it. We have to
1:59:38bring the combat and we have to wage
1:59:40that combat in a dignified way. And like
1:59:43I think that essentially, I mean I would
1:59:46submit to you, I guess it's for the
1:59:47listeners and the readers of Geese to
1:59:50respond, but
1:59:51I think that Jean-Luc does this in a
1:59:53dignified way.
1:59:56>> Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. That
1:59:58that polarity is the essence right
1:59:59there. If I was someone who, you know,
2:00:02was in that example you you had gave, I
2:00:04I I'd probably immediately side with the
2:00:07guy. So it's it's only natural to see
2:00:08how how he's gained so much popularity
2:00:11for this kind of discussion.
2:00:13So
2:00:15uh we're coming up to time.
2:00:17Uh so I'd like to thank you, Henry, for
2:00:19coming on and having
2:00:21uh such a wonderful
2:00:23colorful discussion with us.
2:00:25Uh
2:00:26as a formality is there there anything
2:00:28you'd uh like to plug
2:00:30uh from your end?
2:00:32>> No, I'm sorry. I usually have something
2:00:33to drink when I do these interviews, but
2:00:36because there was this big storm, I
2:00:37didn't get to the corner store in time.
2:00:39So, I was like unusually serious and
2:00:42fiery. Next time I come on your show,
2:00:44I'll make sure to lighten the mood a
2:00:46little bit beforehand, but I thank you
2:00:47all.
2:00:47>> I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. It was It
2:00:49was probably one of my favorite
2:00:51discussions we've had on so far. So,
2:00:52thank you so much.
2:00:54>> All right. Thanks, Henry.
2:00:54>> Henry. Thank you.
2:00:56>> Ciao. Take care.
2:00:58>> Thank you for tuning in to the Geese
2:00:59podcast. If you enjoyed listening, check
2:01:01out our website at geesemag.com for more
2:01:03political commentary and consider
2:01:05joining our Patreon.

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