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FULL MKULTRA HEARING: CIA's MKUltra Program Probed By Lawmakers Seeking Answers About 'Mind Control' — Transcript

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0:00Force on declassification of federal
0:01secrets will come to order. Welcome
0:03everyone.
0:05Without objection, the chair may declare
0:06a recess at any time. I recognize myself
0:09for the purpose of making an opening
0:11statement.
0:13This hearing is about the crimes
0:15committed by the Central Intelligence
0:17Agency against the American citizens and
0:18the decades of secrecy used to conceal
0:20them.
0:21The American people deserve a complete
0:23and truthful record.
0:25The victims and their families deserve
0:26acknowledgement, and this Congress has a
0:28constitutional obligation to ensure that
0:31full declassification is not delayed any
0:33longer.
0:34Project MKUltra was not a policy failure
0:37or overzealous program that got out of
0:39hand. It was a deliberate, systematic
0:41governmental operation that subjected
0:43American citizens, prisoners, hospital
0:46patients, veterans, ordinary people to
0:48LSD, electroshock, hypnosis, sensory
0:51deprivation, psychological torture
0:53without their knowledge or consent. This
0:55went on for 20 years on American soil
0:57funded by American taxpayer dollars and
0:59authorized by the very top of US
1:01intelligence apparatus.
1:03And this program, when it did end, the
1:06men who ran it did not cooperate with
1:07investigators. They did not come
1:09forward. They committed another crime.
1:11They destroyed evidence.
1:14The documents this task force has
1:15reviewed are unambiguous. In January
1:171973, the director of the CIA, Richard
1:21Helms, prepared to leave office. He
1:22personally ordered the destruction of
1:24MKUltra records.
1:25The CIA official document in writing
1:28states Over my stated objectives, the
1:32MKUltra files were destroyed by the
1:33order of DCI Mr. Helms shortly before
1:36his departure from office.
1:38A separate internal account confirms
1:40that Helms telephoned Dr. Gottlieb
1:42directly and instructed him to destroy,
1:44quote, all files pertaining to drug
1:46research and associated activities.
1:48Gottlieb completed compiled four people
1:51spent entire day tearing, burning down
1:54152 files.
1:56Then Gottlieb had his personal papers
1:58destroyed by his secretary before he
1:59retired.
2:01The head of the CIA owned records center
2:03protested the destruction in writing,
2:05but he was overruled.
2:07That is obstruction of justice. That is
2:10criminal destruction of federal records,
2:12and neither individuals were ever
2:13charged with a crime for it. Helms
2:15received a $2,000 fine for lying to
2:18Congress about an unrelated matter and
2:20collected his government pension until
2:22he died.
2:23Gottlieb retired in rural Virginia and
2:25wrote poetry.
2:26No one went to prison.
2:28No victim was ever formally compensated
2:30by the government for the harm that they
2:32caused.
2:33By 1975, the Church Committee and the
2:35Rockefeller Commission had already
2:37established through sworn testimony and
2:39the surviving 1963 Inspector General
2:41report that MKUltra existed and that the
2:44CIA had run a program of human
2:45experimentation on unwitting Americans.
2:49The scope and detail of what we know
2:51today is largely because of an accident.
2:53In 1977, an archivist diligently
2:56complying with a FOIA request discovered
2:59seven boxes of MKUltra financial records
3:02that had been misfiled and escaped the
3:04bonfire.
3:06Those seven boxes included the names of
3:08institutions, the name of subprojects,
3:10the researchers who participated who
3:13participated, the specific operation
3:15that the CIA had funded, and without
3:17them the vast majority of MKUltra would
3:19only be a rumor just as Helms and
3:21Gottlieb intended.
3:23Those seven boxes revealed MKUltra
3:25comprised at least 149 subprojects
3:28operated across more than 80
3:29institutions and involved 185
3:32non-government researchers.
3:35They revealed that the CIA covertly
3:37contributed $375,000
3:39to a hospital research wing, which was
3:41approved directly by DCI Allen Dulles
3:43with Richard Helms um
3:46concurrence so the agency could use
3:48unwitting patients as experimental
3:50subjects in what their own documents
3:52called a hospital safe house.
3:55The CIA owns Inspector General said in
3:571963 his classified report concluded
3:59that the program had exceeded the
4:01agency's legal chapter and covert
4:03testing on unwitting subjects placed the
4:05rights and interests of US citizens in
4:07jeopardy.
4:08The program went for a decade that we
4:10know of and they ignore ignored their
4:12own watchdog.
4:14Let me be clear
4:16what I believe that we are dealing with
4:17here.
4:18Administering drugs to people without
4:19their knowledge or consent, subjecting
4:21humans to psychological torture and
4:23using prisoners and hospital patients as
4:25non-consenting research subjects. These
4:28are crimes against humanity.
4:30The Central Intelligence Agency
4:31committed them and then the director of
4:34the CIA was ordered or was ordering the
4:36destruction of evidence.
4:38Today we will hear from two witnesses
4:40who have spent years unraveling the
4:42cover-up that our government ordered.
4:44Stephen Kinzer documented the life and
4:46crimes of Sidney Gottlieb in his book
4:48Prisoner of Chief and Tom O'Neill spent
4:50over 20 years investigating what the CIA
4:53buried
4:54and what they obscured that in my mind
4:57constitute some of the worst notorious
4:59crimes against humanity in the 20th
5:01century.
5:02Their persistence in the research in
5:03this hearing is possible simply because
5:06they are patriots.
5:08The American people deserve the complete
5:09record. The victims and their families
5:11deserve acknowledgement, accountability
5:13and justice and this Congress has a
5:15constitutional obligation to make sure
5:17that the CIA never does this again.
5:20Um with that I'm going to be opening up
5:22first questions and I'll hold my
5:23questions to the end to Representative
5:26Burchett and but before I do pass it, I
5:28did want to just note a few weeks ago we
5:30did receive reports and there's some
5:32back and forth regarding the CIA and
5:34ODNI pertaining to uh new MKUltra boxes
5:37that were discovered. Uh myself and
5:40Representative Burchett and did go down
5:41to Langley. We did meet with the CIA and
5:43the CIA is currently in in process of
5:45declassifying
5:47uh newly found documentation. Although
5:50the documents and
5:52I feel comfortable enough to share it
5:53here pertain specifically to a forgery
5:56program that was being housed under MK
5:58Ultra. So, as soon as those files are
6:01released, we will be putting out
6:02notification with your help to also comb
6:04through some of the newly released
6:05documents, but I did want to give you a
6:06quick update. Without further ado, I
6:09would like to represent representative
6:11or I would like to now recognize
6:13representative Eric Burlison for his
6:14questions.
6:18Go ahead.
6:19Without objection, representative Perry
6:21and representative Higgins from
6:23Louisiana Pennsylvania and Louisiana is
6:25waved on to the committee for the
6:26purpose of questioning the witnesses at
6:28today's subcommittee hearing.
6:32I need the opening statement. Yeah. And
6:34I'd like to now recognize Dr. Kinzer and
6:36the witnesses for the opening
6:37statements. I have to swear them in.
6:43Stephen Kinzer is a historian,
6:44journalist, and author of Poisoner in
6:46Chief Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA's
6:48search for mind control.
6:50Tom O'Neill is an investigative
6:52journalist who authored Chaos, Charles
6:54Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History
6:56of the 60s. And Elizabeth Genexi, did I
6:59say that right, ma'am?
7:01Genexi is an independent consultant and
7:03former senior program officer at the
7:05National Institute of Health. We look
7:06forward to hearing what you have to say
7:08today on this important subject.
7:11Pursuant to committee rules 9G, the
7:13witnesses will please stand and raise
7:15their right hand.
7:22Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the
7:24testimony that you're about to give is
7:25the truth, the whole truth, and the
7:26nothing nothing but the truth, so help
7:28you God?
7:30Let the record show that the witnesses
7:32answered in the affirmative. Thank you,
7:34you may now take your seat.
7:36We appreciate you being here today. Let
7:37me remind the witnesses that we We read
7:40your opening statements and it will
7:41appear in full record in the
7:43in full in the hearing record. Please
7:45limit your oral statements to 5 minutes.
7:47However, if it does go over, we will not
7:48be gaveling you out. As a reminder,
7:51please press the button on the
7:52microphone in front of you so that it is
7:54illuminated and members can hear you.
7:56When you begin to speak, the light in
7:57front of you again will turn green.
7:58After 4 minutes, the light will turn
8:00yellow and the red when the red light
8:01comes on, that means that your 5 minutes
8:03has expired and we will ask you to
8:05please wrap it up.
8:06I would now like to recognize Stephen
8:08Kinzer for his opening statement.
8:11>> Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. Let
8:13me begin by expressing my gratitude to
8:15this task force for confronting the
8:18enormous issue of over-classification of
8:20government documents
8:22and the culture of secrecy that enables
8:24it.
8:25I'm especially gratified by your
8:27interest in MK Ultra,
8:29the project the CIA carried out through
8:31the 1950s in an attempt to find the
8:33secret of mind control.
8:36MK Ultra was one of the most secret
8:38government programs in American history.
8:42The chemist who directed it, Sidney
8:43Gottlieb, lived in total anonymity.
8:47My book, Poisoner in Chief, may be the
8:49most complete account of MK Ultra that
8:52exists in public, but I'm painfully
8:54aware
8:55that I have discovered only a small
8:58portion of what MK Ultra was and what
9:01Sidney Gottlieb did.
9:03In 1951, the CIA hired Gottlieb and
9:06directed him to launch what became MK
9:08Ultra.
9:09Gottlieb believed that in order to find
9:11a way to implant a new mind into
9:14someone's brain, you first had to
9:17find a way to destroy the mind that was
9:20in there already.
9:23In its search for ways to destroy a
9:25human mind and body,
9:27MK Ultra conducted the most extreme
9:29experiments on human beings that have
9:32ever been carried out by a US government
9:35agency.
9:36By any standard, they qualify as medical
9:39torture.
9:40These experiments took place in prisons,
9:43clinics, and safe houses in the United
9:45States,
9:46in Europe, in Asia, and even in Latin
9:48America.
9:50Officers of MK Ultra were authorized to
9:52travel to foreign countries, preferably
9:55those under formal or informal US
9:58occupation,
9:59and ask the local CIA station to provide
10:02them with expendables,
10:05human beings who would not be missed if
10:07they disappeared.
10:09Gottlieb had what amounted to a license
10:12to kill
10:13issued by the US government.
10:18Neither the number of MK Ultra victims
10:21nor the number of those who were
10:23experimented to death is known.
10:27Gottlieb, as a result of this license to
10:29kill, might have been
10:31the most powerful unknown American of
10:34the 20th century.
10:37Some information about MK Ultra spilled
10:39out during the 1970s,
10:41but senior CIA officers had
10:44intentionally let Gottlieb operate
10:46without supervision.
10:48So, they were able to claim that they
10:50knew nothing about his excesses.
10:52This was a way for the CIA to deny its
10:55institutional role in MK Ultra and to
10:58portray it misleadingly as the product
11:01of one man's sadism or excessive zeal.
11:06Investigating MK Ultra is challenging
11:08because when Gottlieb and his mentor,
11:09Richard Helms, left the CIA in 1973,
11:12they illegally ordered that its records
11:14be destroyed.
11:16Soon afterwards, under DCI Stansfield
11:18Turner, a CIA analyst, as you pointed
11:21out, Madam Chairman, discovered a cache
11:22of MK Ultra documents hidden among
11:24financial records.
11:26Turner credited that analyst with doing
11:29a very diligent job of Sherlock
11:32Holmesing.
11:34>> Uh that same diligence I believe could
11:36bring results today.
11:39Uh
11:40one of the great mysteries of MK Ultra
11:42has to do with the death in 1953 of an
11:45MK Ultra scientist, Frank Olson, who had
11:48announced his intention to quit the
11:49project.
11:51His plunge from a New York hotel
11:54uh room was described in the press as
11:56the suicide of an Army scientist. He was
11:58not an Army scientist, he worked for the
12:00CIA, and evidence suggests that uh his
12:03death may have not have been a suicide.
12:06So, there could be hidden documents that
12:07could illuminate this case.
12:10I would also point out that in addition
12:13to searching for unknown documents, this
12:16committee could do a tremendous service
12:18by simply asking for the end of
12:21redactions on the documents that we now
12:24have. There are reams of documents about
12:27MK Ultra that have heavy sections
12:29redacted.
12:30In the 1970s, this was justified by the
12:33argument that it only been 20 years
12:35since these terrible things had
12:36happened, and revealing details might
12:38affect national security. Now, 70 years
12:41have passed. That argument can no longer
12:43be valid. So, I would urge this
12:45committee to try to fill out all the
12:48blank spaces in the documents that we
12:50have because we know that is there.
12:55Uh this task force could also consider
12:57trying to determine whether some new
12:59incarnation of MK Ultra exists today.
13:03When the main phase of MK Ultra drew to
13:05a close in the early 1960s,
13:08Sidney Gottlieb concluded that it had
13:10failed.
13:11Uh that in fact, there is no such thing
13:13as mind control.
13:16Even if he was right, however,
13:18he may have been right only at that
13:20time.
13:22In the many decades since then,
13:25there have been enormous advant-
13:26advances in cyber technology and
13:29artificial intelligence and
13:31neuroscience.
13:33Covert agencies may have access now to
13:36tools for mind control that Sidney
13:38Gottlieb could not even have imagined.
13:40It may well have been true in 1963
13:44that mind control is a myth.
13:47But whether it's still true [snorts]
13:49is uncertain.
13:51Uh
13:52and that question of whether mind
13:56control might now be possible under our
13:59new circumstances is something that has
14:02presumably occurred to scientists who
14:04work for secret services including our
14:06own.
14:09This task force has a chance to connect
14:11the past to the future.
14:13A renewed effort to find MK Ultra
14:16documents from the 1950s and to fill out
14:19the redactions of those that have been
14:21released
14:22might shed new light on how the CIA
14:24operated during that period. It could
14:27also inform a new inquiry into whether
14:29any mind control projects are now
14:31underway inside the US security
14:33apparatus.
14:35That might help prevent the emergence of
14:37a 21st century MK Ultra that could be
14:39even more destructive than the original.
14:42Thank you.
14:45>> Thank you very much, Dr. Kinzer. Um I
14:47now recognize Tom O'Neill for his
14:49opening statement.
14:50>> Uh thank you, Chairwoman
14:54and members
14:57Almost 50 years
15:01Oh, sorry. Should I start over?
15:04Thank you, Chairwoman uh Luna and
15:07members of the committee. It's a
15:09privilege to be here today.
15:11Almost 50 years ago, the last
15:12congressional hearings into MK Ultra
15:14took place just a short walk from here
15:17in the Dirksen Senate Office Building.
15:20At those hearings convened in August and
15:22September of 1977,
15:24representatives of the CIA told Congress
15:27and the American people that its 25-year
15:29effort to control human behavior had
15:31been a colossal failure.
15:34Cuz
15:35I believe Congress was never told the
15:38truth about what this program actually
15:40achieved. In fact, I believe the agency
15:43misled Congress in 1977
15:46when it characterized MK Ultra as a
15:48failure. My name is Tom O'Neill and in
15:501999 I was accepted I accepted a
15:53magazine assignment to write a story
15:55about murders committed by a group of
15:57hippies called the Manson family. For
16:00those unfamiliar with this horrific
16:02episode of American history, in the
16:04summer of 1969 four young people acting
16:07on the orders of a cult leader named
16:09Charles Manson went to the home of movie
16:12director Roman Polanski and murdered
16:13everyone they found there, including his
16:168 and 1/2 month pregnant wife, the
16:18actress Sharon Tate.
16:19The victims were complete strangers to
16:21the to their killers.
16:24The following night Manson's followers
16:26murdered another couple in the same
16:28grizzly fash- fashion.
16:31At the time I accepted the assignment,
16:33I'd never heard of MK Ultra and I
16:35wouldn't for another 2 years after I'd
16:37missed countless deadlines, lost the
16:39assignment, and fall- fallen down a
16:42nightmarish rabbit hole trying to answer
16:44the question I couldn't quite shake.
16:47How had Manson, a barely literate
16:49ex-con, acquired the ability to persuade
16:53ordinary young people to murder complete
16:55strangers simply because he had told
16:58them to?
16:59The pursuit of that answer
17:01The pursuit of the answer to that
17:03question led me to Dr. Louis Jolyon
17:05West, known to his friends as Jolly.
17:08West was one of the most influential
17:10psychiatrists in America. During his
17:13career he crossed paths with some of the
17:15most controversial events of the 20th
17:17century, including the Patty Hearst
17:19kidnapping case and the aftermath of the
17:21John F. Kennedy assassination
17:23investigation.
17:24In 1977, [clears throat]
17:26West was one of seven academic
17:28researchers named in a front-page New
17:30York Times story alleging that the CIA
17:33had used American universities,
17:36hospitals, and prisons as secret
17:38laboratories for experiments involving
17:40LSD and other drugs on unwitting human
17:43subjects.
17:45West vigorously denied the allegations.
17:48He acknowledged that the agency had
17:49approached him, but insisted he had
17:51refused because he said LSD was too
17:54dangerous and unpredictable to be used
17:56on humans. He added that he limited all
17:59of his research with LSD to animals.
18:03The revelations in the Times led
18:04directly to the congressional hearings
18:06held later that year.
18:08West's denials, however, were effective.
18:11He was never investigated,
18:13and his name never came up at the
18:15hearings. I'll spare you the long and
18:17tedious story of how my Manson reporting
18:19led to West. Led me to West except to
18:22say that I eventually learned
18:24that in 1967, when Manson transformed
18:27into the cult leader we are familiar
18:29with today, he and his followers were
18:31receiving free medical care care at a
18:34clinic in San Francisco where West had
18:37established a base of operations for a
18:39research project he was conducting
18:41nearby.
18:43After becoming intrigued by the
18:45allegations against West, I learned that
18:47UCLA, his last academic home, had
18:50inherited his papers following his death
18:52in 1999.
18:55Nearly 2 months and more than 200 boxes
18:57later, I found the proverbial needle in
18:59a haystack. Correspondence between West
19:03and Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, the architect
19:05of MK Ultra.
19:07The letters began in 1953,
19:10just 2 months after CIA Director Allen
19:12Dulles
19:13authorized the program. And while West
19:16was stationed at the Lackland Air Force
19:18Base in San Antonio, Texas, where he was
19:20chief chief psychiatrist at the base
19:22hospital,
19:23in his first letter to Gottlieb, West
19:26proposed conducting experiments on
19:28unwitting human subjects, including
19:30military personnel, prisoners, and
19:33psychiatric patients at the base
19:34hospital.
19:36He then outlined the experiments
19:37themselves in six more pages that could
19:40have been written by Josef Mengele.
19:43Using LSD in combination with hypnosis,
19:46West proposed inducing confusion,
19:48amnesia, and specific mental disorders
19:51in people who would remember nothing of
19:52their interaction with him afterward. He
19:55sought to develop techniques to extract
19:57true information and implant false
20:00information in unwilling subjects and to
20:03alter the attitudes and beliefs of,
20:06quote, previously loyal individuals. In
20:08other words, to completely switch their
20:10allegiance from one group or leader to
20:12another.
20:13But it was that sentence but it was
20:15another sentence at the end of that
20:17letter that stopped me cold. These
20:19experiments, he wrote, must eventually
20:22be put to test in practical trials in
20:24the field.
20:26Gottlieb's response could hardly have
20:28been more enthusiastic. "My good
20:30friend," he wrote, "I had been wondering
20:32whether your apparent rapid and
20:33comprehensive grasp of our problems
20:35could possibly be real. You have indeed
20:38developed an admirably accurate picture
20:40of exactly what we are after." West
20:43replied that there was no more vital
20:45undertaking conceivable in these times.
20:48There was another document in West's
20:50papers that had even more significant
20:52implications. It was a 14-page report
20:55that West wrote in 1956, just 3 years
20:58after he contracted with the CIA.
21:02In the report, West described
21:04administering LSD and other drugs in
21:06conjunction with hypnosis on unwitting
21:09human subjects. And then he made a
21:11remarkable claim.
21:13He announced that he had learned how to
21:14replace true memories with false
21:16memories in people without their
21:18knowledge. In other words, he clarified,
21:21"It has been found to be feasible to
21:24take the memory of a definite event in
21:26the life of an individual and through
21:28hypnotic suggestion bring about the
21:30subsequent conscious recall to the
21:33effect that this event never actually
21:35took place, but that a different
21:38fictional event actually did occur."
21:41If West's report was accurate, this was
21:43not the failure agency officials
21:46described in 1977,
21:48quite the opposite.
21:50It was in fact the central ambition of
21:52the MK Ultra operation,
21:55the means of gaining the ability to
21:57seize the control of a person's
21:59perceptions, memories, and ultimately
22:01their behavior.
22:03But there was still one more discovery
22:04and this time I found it
22:06in the National Security Archives at
22:08George Washington University, the
22:10official repository of the CIA's MK
22:13Ultra records, which were released to
22:15Congress after the 1977 hearings. In
22:18those holdings was a different versions
22:20of West's 1956 report.
22:24The original paper had been replaced by
22:26a four-page summary that did not exist
22:28in West's files and appears to have been
22:30written by someone else. His claims
22:33about replacing memories were gone.
22:36In their place was a theoretical
22:38discussion of LSD and dissociative
22:40states. The version supplied to Congress
22:43concluded
22:44that the effects of LSD and similar
22:46drugs on dissociative dissociative
22:49states had,
22:51and I'm quoting, "never been studied."
22:55Never been studied.
22:57In the original report, West discusses
22:59observations from his own experiments
23:02including detailed descriptions of using
23:04LSD 2 as he wrote speed the induction of
23:07the hypnotic state and deepen the trance
23:10in subjects. Those passages have been
23:13removed in the report turned over to
23:15Congress.
23:16The discrepancy could not have been more
23:18stark.
23:23Nearly 50 years ago another
23:25congressional committee believed they'd
23:27been given the truth about MK Ultra. It
23:30had not. In conclusion, I respectfully
23:33submit that these records, some newly
23:35available and others that remained
23:37outside government's disclosure for
23:39decades, weren't a thorough
23:41re-examination of what the program
23:43accomplished, what Congress was told,
23:46and what may still remain hidden.
23:48I'm happy to provide the documents I've
23:50referenced today and I've provided many
23:52additional details in my written
23:55testimony.
23:57>> Thank you, Mr. O'Neal. I now recognize
23:59Elizabeth Green next to you for her
24:00opening statement.
24:04>> Chairman Luna and distinguished members
24:06of the committee, thank you for the
24:08opportunity to testify today.
24:11I'm a health research scientist with a
24:13master's and doctoral degrees in
24:15psychology from the George Washington
24:16University. I spent 22 years from 2003
24:20to 2025 as a scientific program official
24:24at the National Institutes of Health
24:26managing more than 132 million dollars
24:29in health research grants and
24:31co-authoring 18 federal funding
24:33programs.
24:34I left the NIH in April of 2025.
24:37I'm here today because what is happening
24:40to NIH right now is not reform. It is
24:43the replacement of scientific judgment
24:45with political control.
24:47For 80 years US federal investment in
24:50biomedical research produced outcomes
24:53that no private market would have
24:55funded.
24:56Heart disease is the leading cause of
24:58death in the United States. NIH-funded
25:01research on blood pressure, cholesterol,
25:04and smoking drove a 56% decline in heart
25:08disease between 1950 and 1996.
25:12Cancer has been transformed.
25:15Treatments for breast, lung, prostate,
25:17and childhood cancers, along with
25:19immunotherapies that converted
25:21previously fatal diagnoses into
25:23manageable conditions, trace directly to
25:26NIH-funded research.
25:29HIV/AIDS were a death in a death
25:32sentence in 1981. No pharmaceutical
25:35company saw a profitable market for
25:37treatments. NIH ran the trials that no
25:40one else would run.
25:42The result was antiretroviral therapy
25:45and pre-exposure prophylaxis.
25:48Global AIDS deaths have fallen 80 54%
25:52since 2010.
25:55Rare diseases that affect 30 million
25:57Americans get studied at the NIH because
25:59no market will fund that research.
26:03Every dollar that's appropriated to the
26:05National Institutes of Health generates
26:07$2.46
26:09in economic output.
26:11NIH-supported work contributed to 354
26:15of the 356 new drugs that the FDA
26:18approved between 2010 and 2019.
26:21Cutting the funding source of that
26:23pipeline does not slow it, it ends it.
26:27The proposed OMB federal financial
26:30assistance rule would give political
26:32appointees authority to terminate funded
26:35grants at any time without cause,
26:39including ongoing clinical trials with
26:42enrolled patients.
26:44This is not a hypothetical.
26:46NIH has already terminated or frozen
26:49thousands of grants, including hundreds
26:51of ongoing clinical trials since January
26:542025,
26:56concentrated in infectious disease,
26:58vaccine, and health disparities
26:59research.
27:01This proposed rule will make that
27:03authority permanent.
27:05The NIH director has eliminated the
27:07merit score thresholds that once
27:09protected peer review, and political
27:12appointees are right now overriding peer
27:15review outcomes to screen grants for
27:17alignment with administrative pri-
27:20priorities.
27:22The proposed OMB rule will also severely
27:25restrict international research.
27:28We're managing an H5N1 blue bird flu
27:31outbreak that has more than 70
27:33documented human cases.
27:36We recently concluded a hantavirus
27:38response that required CDC scientists
27:41working alongside Argentine
27:43counterparts.
27:45The current Ebola outbreak in the
27:47Democratic Republic of Congo is now the
27:50third largest on record and is outpacing
27:52containment efforts.
27:54This rule will curtail exactly that kind
27:57of cooperation that we need.
28:00NIH lost 1,112
28:04112 PhD-trained workers from 2025 to
28:08early 2026.
28:11More than half of the NIH institutes
28:13right now are operating without
28:14permanent scientific leadership.
28:17The majority of its advisory councils,
28:19required by statute to provide
28:21independent oversight, have lost more
28:23than half of their members.
28:26The fundamental choice before this
28:28Congress
28:29is between a system where scientists
28:33make scientific judgments through
28:35accountable processes, and one where
28:38political appointees make those calls
28:40instead.
28:42That choice will determine whether the
28:44next breakthroughs in cancer,
28:47Alzheimer's, antibiotic resistance, and
28:50pandemic defense will happen here,
28:53somewhere else, or perhaps not at all.
28:57I urge this committee to support a joint
28:59resolution of disapproval to block the
29:02proposed OMB financial assistance rule.
29:06That authority to replace peer review
29:08with political approval has not been
29:10granted by Congress and should not be.
29:13>> has expired. I'll be now going to
29:14myself. Thank you very much.
29:16>> Thank you, ma'am.
29:17Um my first question is for Mr. O'Neal.
29:21MK Naomi, the joint CIA Army program
29:24that ran parallel with MK-Ultra at Fort
29:26Detrick, appears to have been run with
29:27deliberate minimal documentation.
29:30Um Army records on Special Operations
29:32Division have apparently been destroyed.
29:34In your investigation, what did you
29:36learn about MK Naomi, and do you believe
29:38its activities were even more serious
29:39than what we know about MK-Ultra?
29:49>> I'm sorry.
29:50I didn't learn anything about those
29:52operations. I kept my focus mostly on
29:55Dr. West and his work. I do know that
29:58the only reason I found the documents I
30:01found was cuz Dr. West accidentally left
30:05them in his papers, and he probably did
30:07that because he corresponded with
30:09Gottlieb under Gottlieb's assigned
30:11alias, which was Sherman Griffith, and
30:14he addressed all his mail to a post
30:17office box here and a Fasco Corporation.
30:20>> Thank you, Mr. I'm I'm just going to
30:22real quick go to Dr. Kinzer. Are you
30:23aware of anything that exists with MK
30:25Naomi in your research?
30:27And if you could please press the
30:28button.
30:28>> My understanding
30:31My understanding of MK Naomi is that it
30:34was a joint project between the military
30:36and the CIA. And there's a big
30:38difference because the MK-Ultra project
30:41was aimed at seizing control of the
30:42minds of individuals.
30:45The army was interested in something
30:46different, which was trying to use
30:48biological agents in warfare against
30:51entire populations. So, MK Naomi is the
30:54place where these two goals overlapped.
30:58>> Um and that was um the 1953 Frank Olson
31:02death, was that in a way tied to that
31:04from
31:05some chatter that we had seen in
31:08>> Exactly what the motivation was behind
31:11the decision about Frank Olson, if there
31:13was such a decision, is unknown.
31:16>> Um my next question is also for you,
31:18sir. Operation Paperclip brought over
31:191,600 German scientists into the United
31:21States government after World War
31:23including individuals who had conducted
31:25human experimentation in concentration
31:27camps. The CIA military were aware of
31:29their backgrounds and recruited them
31:30anyways. In your research, did you find
31:33direct documentation between Paperclip
31:35scientists and the development of MK
31:36Ultra's experimental protocols,
31:38specifically the use of mescaline,
31:40hypnosis, and sensory deprivation, which
31:42were techniques also documented at
31:44Dachau?
31:46>> Absolutely. Um Kurt Blome, who was the
31:49chief of biological weapons development
31:52for the Nazi government, came to work
31:54for the CIA. So did Walter Schreiber,
31:56who was the surgeon general of the Nazi
31:59army.
32:00Um
32:01I can just tell a a brief story. When I
32:03was researching my book, I found what I
32:05think might be the first secret CIA
32:08prison or black site. It's a nice chalet
32:10in Germany. And the guy who now owns it
32:13took me into the basement.
32:15He said, "These were the cells where the
32:18MK Ultra officers, working side by side
32:22with Nazis,
32:23uh carried out those gruesome
32:25experiments, which were actually just
32:28continuations
32:30of the experiments that those Nazis had
32:33been conducting just a few years earlier
32:35right down the road."
32:36>> Just for timeline and clarification,
32:37these experiments were happening after
32:39the Nuremberg trials, correct? So, the
32:40CIA would have known that these were
32:42crimes against humanity.
32:44>> [snorts]
32:44>> I looked for an episode in which the
32:46Nuremberg doctrines were posted on the
32:48wall in some MK Ultra or CIA office, and
32:51I was never able to find any indication
32:53that those Nuremberg principles ever
32:56were even consulted, much less obeyed.
32:59>> Thank you.
33:01Uh my next question would be for either
33:03witness to comment, Dr. Kinzer or Mr.
33:05O'Neal. Um both witnesses have written
33:07about the psychiatrist Louis um Jolly
33:10West. Sydney Gottlieb ran MK Ultra
33:12program for the CIA hired West as a
33:14contractor to conduct research for
33:16subproject 43, combining hypnotism,
33:18drugs, and sensory deprivation to create
33:20disassociative states in which to quote
33:22Mr. Kinzer in his book Chief, "The human
33:25mind could be pulled away from its
33:26moorings." Following the assassination
33:28of President John F. Kennedy, West
33:30psychiatrically examined Jack Ruby, then
33:32in prison for murdering the president
33:34accused of the assassination, Lee Harvey
33:36Oswald. Uh Lee The assassin accused um
33:39of murdering President Kennedy, Lee
33:41Harvey Oswald. A report emerged from
33:43West's examination said that Ruby had
33:45suffered a acute psychotic break. Can
33:47you explain why Dr. West in particular
33:50was chosen to conduct an examination of
33:52Jack Ruby alone in his jail cell with no
33:54other psychologist president uh present?
33:59>> Be happy to.
34:01Uh West inserted himself into the case
34:03when Ruby was
34:05the day of the shooting the day after
34:07the shooting, West approached the judge
34:09in the preliminary hearings and asked to
34:12be uh assigned to the case. He was
34:15refused by the judge. After Ruby was
34:17convicted at his first trial,
34:20uh an associate of West, uh Dr. Hubert
34:23Winston Smith, who was a psychiatrist
34:25and an attorney, took over Ruby's
34:27defense for his appeal,
34:29and he had already discussed uh
34:31appointing Ruby to the case or excuse
34:34me, West to the case.
34:35Uh and as you said, West examined Ruby
34:38alone at the jail cell and emerged to
34:41announce that in the preceding 48 hours
34:43he had a had a acute psychotic break
34:46from which he would never recover. He
34:48had been declared incompetent to stand
34:51trial in his the first time by a panel
34:53of I think eight psychiatrists.
34:56Uh this psychotic break lasted until his
34:59death in 1967.
35:012 months after West examined him, Ruby
35:04testified for the first time and only
35:07time to the Warren Commission. It was
35:08the first time he ever publicly was
35:11supposed to say what his reasons were
35:13for shooting Oswald.
35:15The uh testimony had to be halted cuz he
35:17was babbling incoherently and as Allen
35:20Inspector who was a counsel to the
35:22commission wrote in his memoirs, he
35:24pulled him aside and said that they were
35:27cutting off the arms and legs of
35:28children in Albuquerque and El Paso and
35:32uh he said he was making no sense
35:33whatsoever.
35:35Ru uh West in his letters to Gottlieb
35:38from 1953
35:40discussed experiments where he would
35:42induce specific mental disorders in
35:45people without their awareness.
35:47A year before the Kennedy assassination,
35:50he publicly spoke in Oklahoma City and
35:53talked about his LSD experiments
35:56inducing psychiatric breaks and
35:58psychosis in people
36:01with the use of LSD with a of course
36:03later contradicted what he told the New
36:04York Times when he said he never used
36:06LSD in animal experimentation.
36:09>> What an interesting connection. Um I'm
36:11out of time, but I'll be now recognizing
36:13Mr. Burleson from Missouri for 5
36:15minutes.
36:17>> Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for
36:18your diligent work on this and um
36:21hopefully we will hear back from the CIA
36:23on those those
36:24boxes of documents that uh
36:27have so many questions about.
36:29Um
36:31Mr. Kin- Dr. Kinzer and um Mr. O'Neal,
36:34the CIA recruit created MK Ultra in 1953
36:38supposedly out of fear that the Soviet
36:40Union and China had developed mind
36:42control capabilities.
36:44Um let me go back a little bit further.
36:46So,
36:48one of my questions has to do with the
36:50event that happened in 1951 in August in
36:54France. There was a bakery that
36:57um
36:59I guess the people that lived in that
37:00community, over 250, some say 300 people
37:04were poisoned
37:05from the bread. It was determined that
37:07that was LSD that was
37:10um
37:10that was that was um causing
37:14all of these people to hallucinate.
37:16Some people died. Is there any
37:18connection, Dr. Kinzer,
37:20to that event? And was that the Was that
37:23something that either inspired the MK
37:25Ultra program or the NKMK Naomi program?
37:29Or is that something that we we were
37:31involved in even that early on?
37:36>> I would turn that question back to you.
37:39I don't think anybody really knows the
37:41full story of what happened at that time
37:43in that town in France. Uh that the
37:45United States could have been involved,
37:47that uh this could have been part of
37:50what was then called Operation
37:51Artichoke, the predecessor for MK Ultra,
37:54seems to me not beyond the realm of
37:57Um
37:58there's a lot of overlap between the
38:00ergot enzyme that is the uh
38:03basis of LSD and certain rye and uh
38:06wheat funguses that can be used in
38:09breads. Um was that something
38:11intentional? Was it something the
38:12Americans were involved in?
38:14Uh I have my suspicions, but uh just
38:17based on my background as a journalist,
38:18I don't operate on suspicions. So, uh I
38:21would love to see more investigation of
38:23that episode.
38:26>> Um my next question has to do with once
38:28the program began,
38:30um I think one of the one of the most
38:32shocking um things that we've determined
38:34is that is the Operation Midnight Climax
38:36that occurred
38:38in the early 1950s, '60s, um where the
38:41CIA had safe houses and
38:45and there was um
38:47I I say Dr. Kinzer, I mean, this
38:49obviously this
38:51is extremely disturbing
38:53um behavior that was happening where you
38:55had
38:56American citizens who were being
38:58who were being lured into these brothels
39:02and then dosed with
39:05um
39:06a hallucinogenic
39:08and then filmed during their sex acts.
39:11Was there
39:13were there any Was there anyone
39:14prosecuted for this for these crimes?
39:18>> No, there have been no prosecutions for
39:20any crime related to MK Ultra as far as
39:23I know. Uh the To me, the remarkable
39:26aspect of that uh
39:28Operation Midnight Climax was that there
39:30wasn't even the pretense
39:33of scientific experimentation.
39:36The person watching behind the one-way
39:37mirror was a grossly overweight drug
39:40officer sitting on a portable toilet and
39:42drinking cocktails out of a pitcher.
39:44There was nobody there that was a
39:46scientist or somebody who understood
39:48sexual behavior or human psychology. So,
39:51uh there was no science involved in it
39:53at all.
39:55I can add a little footnote. When I was
39:57researching Poisoner in Chief, I came
39:59across a document in which uh one of the
40:02officers involved in setting up that
40:04program, Operation Midnight Climax,
40:07said that Sidney Gottlieb himself used
40:09to fly from Washington out to inspect
40:12the project regularly and always asked
40:14that women be provided for him.
40:17So, uh
40:18>> That was my next question. Do you think
40:20that the agents were involved in the
40:21sexual encounters?
40:23>> Well, and could that have actually been
40:25the reason why the bordello was opened?
40:29There was no prospect of any serious
40:32scientific result out of that project
40:34given the personnel who were overseeing
40:36it. So, uh
40:39those CIA officers, particularly
40:41Gottlieb, involved in overseeing uh
40:44Operation Midnight Climax, uh certainly
40:47were able to take advantage of what it
40:49offered.
40:50>> Thank you. And my my last question.
40:51First, I want to say thank you to Mr.
40:52O'Neill. The book Chaos, I checked it
40:54out from the um Library of Congress.
40:57Um and greatly appreciate your work
40:59there.
41:00Um I was intrigued by one of the
41:02statements that you made based on your
41:03research that the MKUltra program, they
41:05were actually successfully able to
41:07replace memories.
41:09And because of that, I'm wondering if
41:11And Dr. Kinzer, you can chime in if you
41:13if you have any knowledge of this.
41:15Did the program continue? And do you
41:17think that the program in some aspect is
41:19still continuing today?
41:24>> Uh you're asking if the program
41:25continued after 1973 when it was uh
41:29halted supposedly.
41:31Uh
41:32I honestly That's a question I'm asked
41:34at almost every appearance I do. Is it
41:37happening today? Did it continue?
41:39I don't know. I can't imagine that it
41:42didn't though because the technology
41:44that they
41:46worked to establish over 20, 25 years
41:49and spent more money on than any
41:51operation the CIA ever conducted was
41:54successful. Uh I imagine it's being
41:57used. I have no evidence of it being
41:59used, so it's a complete assumption.
42:02>> Uh I I would just add that um
42:05one of the letters uh to which Mr.
42:07O'Neill referred uh contains a quote
42:09from Mr. Gottlieb saying that these
42:12experiments [music]
42:12were necessary quote in these times.
42:16I think it's important to put yourself
42:17back in that mindset where the United
42:19States felt that it was under such
42:21overwhelming threat that the loss of a
42:23few lives or a few hundred lives was a
42:26small price to pay. Commitment to a
42:28great cause is one of the most
42:31fundamental
42:32uh justifications for committing immoral
42:34acts. And patriotism is among the most
42:37noble of causes. It can be twisted and
42:40it can be used as an excuse to carry out
42:43research under the guise that this is
42:46simply research we're doing to protect
42:48ourselves against others. And I think
42:50that is a mindset that may still be
42:52active in some parts of our government.
42:54>> Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, Madam
42:56Chair. My time has expired. I yield
42:57back.
43:01>> Thank you, Mr. Burchett. I now recognize
43:03myself.
43:05Uh thank you to the witnesses for coming
43:07today
43:08to testify about MK-Ultra.
43:11Um Dr. Janexy, you said you worked for
43:14the NIH. Is that correct?
43:17>> That is correct.
43:19>> And you left in 2025?
43:21>> That is correct.
43:23>> I noticed uh during your opening
43:24statement that you had nothing to say
43:27about
43:28the uh content of this hearing being
43:31about MK-Ultra.
43:34Your statement seemed to be based more
43:35on your issues with this
43:37administration's attempt to reform
43:40and rein in the NIH. Is that a fair
43:43assessment of your opening statement?
43:45>> My opening statement was talking about
43:48the the uh destruction of the NIH and
43:51cancellation of grants and political
43:53control
43:54of the NIH.
43:58>> Would Would you deny that the NIH had
44:01involvement in uh the funding of the
44:04Wuhan lab?
44:06>> I don't have any knowledge about any
44:09funding related to the Wuhan lab.
44:13>> Sorry, are you denying that the NIH
44:16>> I'm I'm basically here to talk about
44:18what's happening right now at the NIH
44:21and how we really should be letting
44:25science be driven by scientists and not
44:28by politicians.
44:29>> What do you
44:30>> Because that's how we
44:32fund cures and
44:34make health progress.
44:35>> Well, with all due respect, ma'am, do
44:36you find it ironic that for years we
44:38were told to trust the science and then
44:41in the aftermath we've all found out
44:43that
44:45most of what we were told during COVID
44:47was a complete lie and it wasn't
44:49scientific at all?
44:51>> The number one thing that I think that
44:52we're doing to destroy trust in American
44:56science right now is is canceling
44:58clinical trials in the middle of those
45:01clinical trials. This does incredible
45:03harm to the patients who are receiving
45:07experimental treatments and it really
45:11destroys the trust that we have in how
45:13do we recruit
45:14patients for future trials if they are
45:17knowing that their trials could just be
45:19simply canceled for political reasons.
45:21>> I don't think anybody up here would deny
45:23that there's never been anything good
45:24that's come out of the NIH and that you
45:26guys have done some good work, but you
45:28just brought up trust.
45:30Do you think the NIH has a trust problem
45:32based on how they handled COVID?
45:35>> No, I do not. I think that the the NIH
45:38is beloved by the American people
45:40because we know about the advances in
45:44human health and cancer treatments and
45:46heart disease and diabetes and all of
45:49the
45:50health gains that the research has
45:52produced.
45:53>> Well, I think you're wrong, ma'am. I
45:55think that the public has
45:57a serious mistrust issue with the NIH.
46:01Do you
46:02Do you deny that the NIH tried to
46:05cover up the origin of COVID?
46:09>> I'm not here to testify about that.
46:11That's not my area of science. I have no
46:14knowledge of that.
46:16>> Are you Do you believe that the NIH
46:19supported masking and social distancing
46:21when there was really no
46:23science to support that?
46:25>> What I'm more concerned about is what's
46:27happening right now to destroy the
46:30biomedical research institute of that
46:33has been the envy of the world. And
46:35right now we're seeding our leadership
46:37in biomedical research to China.
46:40>> What
46:40about covering up harmful side effects
46:43of vaccines and the role that the NIH
46:45has played in that?
46:47What do you have to say about that,
46:49ma'am?
46:51>> The US history of human subjects
46:53protection has evolved greatly.
46:56Numerous research improprieties from the
46:59'50s to the '70s in the United States,
47:01including the Tuskegee syphilis study,
47:04forced Congress to establish formally
47:06federal
47:07>> asking you about that.
47:08>> mandated rules
47:09>> what I'm asking you about. I'm asking
47:10you about how NIH handled COVID.
47:14Obviously, this is supposed to be a
47:15hearing about MK Ultra, but when you
47:17gave your opening statement, and I don't
47:19even know why you were called to this
47:20hearing because you didn't offer
47:22anything about MK Ultra. But since you
47:24are here and you're going to defend NIH,
47:27I'm going to call you out on it.
47:36Do you Do you
47:37Do you see now what I'm talking about
47:39when you say that the NIH doesn't have
47:43integrity problems and trust issues? Did
47:45you hear the applause in this room? That
47:47should tell you right now that you're
47:48pretty tone-deaf to what the public
47:50thinks about how the NIH handled COVID
47:53and the cover-up, not only the funding
47:55of it, but the cover-up involved in the
47:57aftermath. Can you acknowledge that?
48:01>> I'm sorry, that's not that's not my
48:02understanding.
48:08>> Who's
48:12Thank you. I want to
48:14um acknowledge Ms. Boebert for the next
48:16round of questioning.
48:19>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
48:21to
48:22two of our witnesses who are here to
48:24actually talk on our subject here today.
48:26Mr. Kinzer,
48:27um
48:28in your book
48:30Poisoner in Chief, you describe how
48:32Project MKUltra was authorized by CIA
48:35Director Allen Dulles in April of 1953
48:39as an umbrella program for research into
48:42the covert use of biological and
48:45chemical materials for mind control and
48:47interrogation. What specific
48:49geopolitical and intelligence concerns,
48:52particularly regarding alleged Soviet
48:55and Chinese quote brainwashing and
48:57Korean War prisoners, drove this
48:59authorization? And and how did Sidney
49:03Gottlieb's
49:05unique background and personality and
49:07worldwide view shape the program's
49:09direction and methods and ethical
49:11boundaries?
49:14>> Um
49:15let me start by answering your second
49:17question about Gottlieb. Um
49:20he
49:21was a very different person from all of
49:24the other
49:25CIA senior CIA officers of that era.
49:28Most of them came from silver spoon
49:29backgrounds. They went to the same prep
49:31schools and the same
49:32Ivy League colleges and belonged to the
49:34same yacht clubs and worked for the same
49:36law firms and and international banks.
49:38Sidney Gottlieb was a son of Orthodox
49:41Jewish refugees from Central Europe. He
49:43had a limp.
49:45He had a stutter. He went to Hebrew
49:46school. He was so different from all of
49:48the other officers.
49:50And upon reflection, I think this may
49:52have not have been an accident. I think
49:54uh uh
49:55that people at the CIA understood that
49:58whoever had this job was going to be
49:59doing some awful, terrible things, that
50:01it would be very bloody, that they might
50:03become known, and it might be necessary
50:06to blame it all on somebody. And they
50:08didn't want to have to blame it all on
50:10one of their own. So, Gottlieb actually
50:14became uh the person on whom everything
50:17was blamed. In fact, when he testified
50:20in secret here in this uh in Congress uh
50:23in the 1970s, uh he complained that
50:27there were documents on which various
50:29signatures had been redacted, but his
50:31alone had remained.
50:33>> Mhm.
50:33>> So, uh is again is a way of uh diverting
50:37attention away from the institutional
50:38responsibility of the CIA and trying to
50:40blame it on one crazy person. As for the
50:44international uh situation at the time,
50:46I think it's very important to
50:47understand this because there is a sort
50:49of a parallel to today. Uh the CIA
50:52misinterpreted several key incidents in
50:55the world, including those to which you
50:56referred, the trial of the uh Cardinal
50:59Mindszenty, and then the
51:01in Hungary, and then the return of
51:03Korean war prisoners.
51:05Um Neither of those episodes really had
51:07to do with mind control, but in the CIA
51:10they were interpreted that way. And this
51:12gave the CIA a reason to pretend that
51:17its research was purely defensive. So, I
51:20think when you consider the world
51:22situation and the sense in Washington
51:24that we're surrounded by enemies, that
51:26becomes a very dangerous environment.
51:29Conspiracy theories stem from the growth
51:32of the covert sphere. There's a great
51:35contradiction in American life that we
51:37pretend to uphold certain principles at
51:39home and abroad, but it's evident to
51:42many Americans that we actually operate
51:45in opposition to those principles.
51:48And we operate by secret and
51:50anti-democratic means. That contributes
51:53to suspicion of government. And the very
51:55existence of MK Ultra proves that some
51:58of the wildest fantasies about secret
52:01government research are actually close
52:04to reality. That makes the paranoid
52:06mindset seem ever more rational.
52:09>> Thank you. And I'm going to have to cut
52:10off several of my questions now, but
52:12that was very intriguing, so I wanted
52:14you to continue. Um MK Ultra ultimately
52:17encompassed at least 149 subprojects and
52:20involving more than 80 institutions,
52:23universities, hospitals, prisons,
52:25pharmaceutical companies, often funded
52:28through cutout foundations to conceal
52:31CIA sponsorship. Um can you detail how
52:35these funding and operational security
52:37mechanisms worked in practice? And and
52:40then just another subset if I don't get
52:41back to asking a question, did the CIA
52:44or government or any of these entities
52:46ever say that what they were doing with
52:49MK Ultra and mind control were were
52:51productive or for the betterment of
52:55humanity? Did they ever make those
52:56claims?
52:57Thank you.
52:59>> Um
53:00as for your second question, I'm not
53:01aware
53:02other than in private
53:04uh communications that the CIA ever
53:07claimed that it had made great advances
53:09under MK Ultra because it largely denied
53:11that MK Ultra ever existed.
53:13Uh as for the foundations, yeah, these
53:15are uh
53:17Sydney Gottlieb created a couple of
53:19bogus foundations. They're called
53:20cutouts in CIA
53:22slang. And these are foundations that
53:25appear to be independent, but actually
53:28are fully funded and controlled by the
53:29CIA. It was those foundations that
53:32approached hospitals and clinics and
53:34asked them to become involved in
53:36research, particularly into LSD. So many
53:39of the institutions where these
53:41experiments took place did not even
53:43realize that those foundations were
53:46actually covers for the CIA.
53:49>> Thank you very much and
53:50Madam Chair, you'll
53:52>> Thank you. I now recognize
53:54Representative Mace from South Carolina
53:55for 5 minutes.
53:56>> Thank you so much. Dr. Janexy, you work
54:00with the NIH, correct?
54:03>> No, I am no longer affiliated with the
54:06NIH.
54:06>> When did you leave the NIH?
54:08>> April of last year.
54:10>> April of last year. Did you ever speak
54:11with Anthony Fauci or any of your NIH
54:13colleagues when you were there about the
54:14NIH's role in funding the Wuhan
54:16Institute of Virology or the development
54:18of COVID-19 virus?
54:20>> No.
54:21>> Do you believe that the NIH or Dr. Fauci
54:24lied to the American people about COVID?
54:27>> No.
54:28>> Are you familiar with Dr. Fauci's
54:30statements to Congress about COVID?
54:33>> No.
54:34>> You didn't watch any of Dr. Fauci. You
54:36worked at the NIH and you didn't watch
54:38any of Dr. Fauci.
54:39>> I I did not [snorts] work at NIAID.
54:42>> Okay.
54:43Do you think that uh
54:45Do you think the COVID shots harm
54:47American citizens?
54:48>> No, I do not.
54:50>> Do you think that the COVID shots cause
54:53turbo cancers?
54:55>> No.
54:56>> Have you read any Do you know if the NIH
54:59or NIAID
55:01track
55:02COVID shot injuries?
55:05Or cancers or anything harmful from
55:07them?
55:08>> I am not aware of any harmful tracking
55:12and this is not my area of expertise.
55:14No.
55:15>> What is your area of expertise?
55:17>> I'm a research psychologist.
55:20And and I I did not work at NIAID.
55:23>> And you're here for what reason?
55:25>> I am here to testify about what is
55:28happening to the NIH right now.
55:32>> You're not here to testify about MK
55:33Ultra?
55:35>> I am not an MK Ultra expert.
55:37>> Why did the Dems send you here if you're
55:39not an MK Ultra expert?
55:40>> But I am an expert in human subjects
55:43protection, which is related, and in the
55:45conduct of of
55:47human subjects research.
55:50>> Okay.
55:51Um but you don't know anything about MK
55:53Ultra, which is the purpose of this
55:55hearing.
55:57All right. So, I have a couple questions
55:59for our witnesses who are here to talk
56:00about MK Ultra, and thank you,
56:02gentlemen, Dr. Kinzer and Dr. Mr.
56:04O'Neal. Um what are some of the worst
56:06abuses that you're aware of in the MK
56:08Ultra program?
56:11>> Uh I can start by just naming I'll I'll
56:15talk about one in particular that always
56:17sticks in my mind. Um
56:19in the federal prison in Lexington,
56:20Kentucky,
56:22uh a group of African-American inmates
56:24was segregated and fed what were
56:26described in the protocol as double,
56:29triple, and quadruple doses of LSD every
56:32day for 77 days.
56:35Um
56:36>> Did they all survive?
56:37>> We have no idea what happened to them,
56:40and this has stuck with me ever since I
56:43wrote that book. What happened to them?
56:44Did they ever find out what was given to
56:47them? Did they think they were going
56:48crazy? Did they I think if they
56:50>> Do you think we're still experimenting
56:52on prisoners or people in prison today?
56:58>> I don't have any information about that.
57:00>> Okay.
57:00>> Uh I'm I'm hoping there'll be another
57:02book about what's happening now.
57:04>> what are some of the worst abuses in MK
57:06Ultra?
57:10>> Um
57:11there were many. Uh the Frank Olson
57:13case, which was referenced earlier, uh
57:16that was a murder. I don't believe that
57:18was a suicide, and the motivation
57:21was because he was going to be a
57:23whistleblower. He worked at the CIA. He
57:26worked in uh the development of
57:27biological weapons, and he was planning
57:30to go public uh and announce that the
57:34United States government was using
57:36biological weapons in in the Korean War.
57:40And also he was going to talk share what
57:42he knew about MK Ultra experiments and
57:45including lethal experiments and there's
57:47a documented case
57:48>> How many gentlemen how many people do
57:50you think died through the MK Ultra
57:52program or were murdered?
57:53>> No idea.
57:55>> If those who died largely were outside
57:57the United States, many people were
57:58experimented to death in that safe house
58:01in Germany that I visited and people in
58:03the neighborhood told me they knew what
58:04was going on in that house and that
58:07people who were experimented to death
58:10are now buried in what used to be forest
58:12plots that are now covered over with
58:14>> German government knew what the US
58:16government was doing? Do you think there
58:16was a partnership there or knowledge?
58:18>> Yes, there is a memo that was written by
58:21the German Secret Service to Konrad
58:23Adenauer, the Chancellor of Germany,
58:25telling him American citizens are being
58:28Americans are here capturing your
58:31citizens, capturing people and
58:32conducting extreme experiments which are
58:34in violation of German law and Adenauer
58:37decided to put that aside and not to
58:39investigate
58:40>> more question that 15 seconds. Is this a
58:42massive cover-up by the US government?
58:45>> It's certainly a cover-up of what
58:47happened in the past.
58:48>> Mr. O'Neal.
58:49>> Oh, absolutely, yes.
58:50>> Thank you and I yield back.
58:52Thank you Representative Mace. I now
58:54recognize Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania
58:56for 5 minutes.
58:57>> Thank you chair.
58:58Thanks to the witnesses for being here.
59:01Uh, to Dr. Kinzer and Mr. O'Neal, I'm
59:03want to focus on
59:05the information that we do have and and
59:09things of that nature. Do we know of
59:12Can you name the locations, say the
59:14prisons, the hospitals
59:17uh, other institutions and the
59:21cutouts as you described either one of
59:23you folks described them that would be
59:25familiar to us or the American people.
59:28Can you name
59:29>> If I could begin just by saying at the
59:32end of the 1977 hearings, Senator Ted
59:35Kennedy and Senator Dan Daniel Inouye,
59:38who were the co-chairs, demanded that
59:40there be an investigation to find out
59:42who were the perpetrators, where were
59:45the experiments conducted, and most
59:47importantly to find locate victims,
59:50compensate them, notify them cuz many
59:52didn't even know they'd been
59:53experimented on, and give them lifetime
59:55medical care. President Jimmy Carter
59:58and
1:00:00Attorney General Griffin Bell said the
1:00:02federal government will begin an
1:00:04investigation. That never happened.
1:00:06Instead, the CIA created something
1:00:09called the Victims Task Force to
1:00:11investigate itself. It was a two-man
1:00:14investigation to locate victims, and
1:00:17they only looked for people who had been
1:00:19experimented on in the safe houses. They
1:00:22completely of cuz I interviewed both of
1:00:24them before they passed away. They
1:00:25completely
1:00:27avoided institutional experimental
1:00:29programs at the hospitals. And you're
1:00:32asking about the hospitals, the Oklahoma
1:00:34City Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base
1:00:36Hospital,
1:00:37Lexington Addiction Center, which Dr.
1:00:39Kinzer referred to, Holmesburg Prison,
1:00:42Vacaville Prison, universities all over
1:00:45the country, Yale, I believe
1:00:48universities. None of those records
1:00:51There was a criminal investigation was
1:00:54also supposed to start into Gottlieb's
1:00:56destruction of the records. That had
1:00:58been announced by the Justice
1:00:59Department. And I interviewed Griffin
1:01:01Bell and asked him what happened to all
1:01:03those investigations and what happened
1:01:04to all those efforts to locate victims.
1:01:06He said it just must have fallen through
1:01:08the cracks.
1:01:09>> So, it was the DOJ that was supposed to
1:01:11investigate
1:01:11>> DOJ, the Department of Justice, and they
1:01:14just kept passing it off and passing it
1:01:16off.
1:01:16>> if the DOJ in their investigation
1:01:19visited the places that you've named?
1:01:21>> No, absolutely not from there.
1:01:23>> wait, hold on a second. They didn't or
1:01:25you don't know?
1:01:26>> Oh, no, no. I asked the two men who did
1:01:28the investigation and they said, "All we
1:01:30did was look into what happened at the
1:01:32safe houses in San Francisco and New
1:01:34York City in 1962."
1:01:37>> poss- Is it possible that information
1:01:39and document documentation remains at
1:01:42the prisons, the
1:01:44the uh treatment centers, the
1:01:45universities where the these things were
1:01:47conducted? Is that possible?
1:01:49>> I found Dr. West's records at UCLA in
1:01:51his file. Uh hospital records are really
1:01:54hard to get because of HIPAA laws and
1:01:57prison records, the Bureau of Prisons do
1:01:59have a lot. Um
1:02:01So, yeah, it is possible there's still
1:02:02documents buried places.
1:02:05>> What what what were the age
1:02:07What were the average ages, if you know,
1:02:09of the people that were experimented on?
1:02:12Were these children? Were these
1:02:13middle-age? Were they
1:02:16>> Well, there were adolescence studies
1:02:18done in um juvenile detention facilities
1:02:22and um
1:02:24jails with kids over 16, 17, 18 years
1:02:28old and at uh institutional schools for
1:02:32wayward kids. The National Training
1:02:33School for boys here in Washington D.C.
1:02:36had them. Um so, it ranged um
1:02:40from I think adolescent, pre-adolescent,
1:02:43you know, through um
1:02:46any age.
1:02:46>> What If you could describe, either one
1:02:49of you, the the
1:02:51the
1:02:52number of potential victims, if you
1:02:54could
1:02:56make a If you could hazard a guess.
1:02:57>> There were 149 programs that we know of
1:03:00that were subcontracted outside of
1:03:03>> 149 separate programs.
1:03:05>> So, so, yeah, outside. And that's what
1:03:07we know of. Again, everything we know of
1:03:09is minuscule compared to what was really
1:03:11going on. So, I mean, that could have
1:03:13been into the tens of thousands and I
1:03:15believe that's another reason that
1:03:17nothing was pursued because if those
1:03:19people were compensated, it could have
1:03:21bankrupted the U.S.
1:03:22>> Has there Has there been any recent
1:03:24attempt to find, locate, identify
1:03:27victims of this?
1:03:28>> Nothing I know of.
1:03:29>> I would just add that there's been
1:03:31considerable progress in this regard in
1:03:33Canada.
1:03:35There was
1:03:36MK Ultra research going on at a
1:03:39psychiatric hospital in Canada, and the
1:03:41Canadian government has made a real
1:03:42effort to try to find out who the
1:03:44victims were, and also to compensate
1:03:45them, and to provide them with medical
1:03:47treatment. So, if we're looking for an
1:03:49example of a place where it was done
1:03:51better, even though it was on a much
1:03:53smaller scale, Canada would be a place
1:03:55to look.
1:03:55>> So, other than embarrassment to the
1:03:56federal government, maybe agencies
1:03:58involved, and particular individuals who
1:04:01are probably likely deceased at this
1:04:03point, what is the
1:04:05What What is the reason for the mass
1:04:07redaction of the information that we do
1:04:11have? Has Has any re-
1:04:14reason have been given?
1:04:16>> I Shame.
1:04:18>> I'm sorry?
1:04:19>> Shame.
1:04:20>> That's what I'm saying, other than
1:04:21embarrassment, but but
1:04:23I I think it stands to reason that
1:04:25probably the individuals involved in
1:04:27conducting and authorizing
1:04:31this activity are probably
1:04:34all deceased.
1:04:35>> Sure.
1:04:35>> At this point, is there any reason to
1:04:37believe otherwise?
1:04:39>> No.
1:04:39>> I make those arguments in my FOIA
1:04:41requests, but it doesn't get me
1:04:42anywhere. I don't know about you, Dr.
1:04:44Kinzer.
1:04:46>> All right, my time's expired. I'll give
1:04:48>> Thank you, Representative Perry. I'm now
1:04:50going to go to second line of questions,
1:04:51so I'll be recognizing myself, followed
1:04:53by I believe Representative Boebert, and
1:04:55either of the representatives if they'd
1:04:57like to join in.
1:04:58I wanted to elaborate further, Dr.
1:05:00Kinzer, on what you had stated about
1:05:02potentially there being bodies, the
1:05:04locations, Germany, cuz I'm going to
1:05:05reach out to the German government after
1:05:07this to get the ball rolling on that if
1:05:08that is indeed the case. Can you just
1:05:11elaborate further on what you are
1:05:12hearing from people in that area, what
1:05:15they were saying, and then also to um
1:05:17potential locations of bodies?
1:05:19>> Uh first of all, the memo that
1:05:21Chancellor Adenauer received is on the
1:05:23record. You can find that You can find
1:05:25that memo warning that these operations
1:05:27are going on.
1:05:29Um
1:05:31I uh
1:05:32did speak to people who lived in that
1:05:34area, and uh
1:05:36they all understood They had Some of
1:05:38them had cooperated with an
1:05:39investigation by a German magazine, Der
1:05:41Spiegel,
1:05:43uh that called that house the CIA
1:05:45torture center. And in that article, it
1:05:48said there were deaths, but the number
1:05:50is not known.
1:05:51So, it was a secret to us.
1:05:55But what we were doing in that house was
1:05:57really not even a secret to the people
1:05:59in the neighborhood. It reminds me of
1:06:00the
1:06:01bombing of Cambodia. That was a secret
1:06:03to us, but if you were living in
1:06:04Cambodia, you would have known about it.
1:06:06So, I think there is a fruitful uh
1:06:10uh ground for research looking into what
1:06:13happened in Germany and seeing uh
1:06:16what can be found out about these
1:06:18huge hugely destructive and devastating
1:06:22projects that were essentially
1:06:24systematic torture going on in this
1:06:26house, and who knows how many others.
1:06:28>> Um just to confirm, too, when you found
1:06:30the initial transcript with the
1:06:31Chancellor um or correspondence, um
1:06:34was there a response from the US
1:06:35government to the Germans?
1:06:37>> No. The US government would possibly
1:06:41have
1:06:42advised Adenauer not to pursue it, but I
1:06:45don't think Adenauer would have even
1:06:46needed to be told that. He would see it,
1:06:48he would understand. His close
1:06:50partnership with the United States made
1:06:52it impossible for him to criticize
1:06:54anything the US was doing. Don't forget
1:06:56this was not so long after the end of
1:06:57the Second World War. So, uh no, there
1:07:00was no uh
1:07:02effort by the United States ever to uh
1:07:05reveal anything about what happened in
1:07:08Germany. And in fact, one of the FOIA
1:07:10requests that I made that was
1:07:12uh
1:07:13never fulfilled, and one that I would
1:07:15urge you to pursue, is what was Sidney
1:07:17Gottlieb doing during 2 years in
1:07:19Germany?
1:07:20He went to Germany and went to live
1:07:22there as a case officer. I was never
1:07:24able to find out what did he do during 2
1:07:27years in Germany. There were huge
1:07:28numbers of MKUltra experiments going on
1:07:30in Germany, including a number that were
1:07:32fatal.
1:07:33That would be a very interesting catch
1:07:35of documents to find.
1:07:37>> We will definitely be following up. My
1:07:38next question would be for either Dr.
1:07:40Kinzer or Mr. O'Neal. Declassified CIA
1:07:42records have revealed that officers
1:07:44deployed overseas have used USAID
1:07:46funding as an official cover, or USAID
1:07:49as an official cover for operational
1:07:50work that had nothing to do with the
1:07:52mission of USAID, i.e. humanitarian aid,
1:07:55medical relief, etc. In some cases, CIA
1:07:58officers operated under USAID cover,
1:08:01engaged in lethal activity in places
1:08:03such as Vietnam, running assassination
1:08:04missions during the war in country from
1:08:061965 to 1975. And since MKUltra seems to
1:08:10have found its origin in drug
1:08:11experiments conducted on prisoners
1:08:13overseas, and first by the SS in Nazi
1:08:15Germany, and then by US intelligence in
1:08:17camps captured from the Germans, do you
1:08:19believe that USAID may have been used
1:08:21overseas to in further influence or
1:08:24further the MKUltra, for example, on
1:08:25prisoners of war? Since part of USAID's
1:08:28mission was to administer drugs to the
1:08:30poor and needy populations, would the
1:08:32organization have abused its mandate by
1:08:34poisoning foreign populations or
1:08:35creating disassociated states for
1:08:37interrogation or torture?
1:08:42>> I can't speak directly to
1:08:44AID, but it's certainly true that during
1:08:48this period after the Second World War,
1:08:50the United States was using
1:08:53publicly announced and official US
1:08:55government agencies to carry out covert
1:08:58action. We now know, for example, that
1:09:005% of all of the money appropriated for
1:09:03the Marshall Plan was diverted for
1:09:06covert activities.
1:09:08Uh a number of US agencies
1:09:10uh were used as cover by covert
1:09:13operatives and uh
1:09:15and that AID could have been one of
1:09:17them. Sounds very likely to me.
1:09:19>> And the NIMH
1:09:20admitted to allowing itself to be used
1:09:23for covert funding of MK Ultra
1:09:25experiments in the 1970s when the
1:09:27operation was disclosed.
1:09:30>> Thank you. I now recognize
1:09:31Representative Burchett for 5 minutes.
1:09:36>> Thank you, Chairlady. Thank you all for
1:09:37being here. Um
1:09:39I remember when all the talk about MK
1:09:41Ultra broke and then they were talking
1:09:43about lawsuits and there were lawsuits
1:09:46and the CIA and the federal government
1:09:48said that this didn't exist and then
1:09:50they came back and said, "Well, it does
1:09:51exist." And then but we're not doing it
1:09:54anymore. I guess my question to y'all
1:09:56first is which lie do we do we believe?
1:10:01Cuz
1:10:04Thank you.
1:10:07Obviously, there was an open bar before
1:10:09this thing started. So, thank you all.
1:10:11But um Dr. Kinzer
1:10:16Get your mic, brother. You're on the
1:10:18mic. It's an old CIA trick.
1:10:20>> I'm just kidding.
1:10:21>> I put myself in the place of one of
1:10:23those senior CIA officers and I'm
1:10:25thinking to myself like the ones back in
1:10:28the 1950s. Well, other people must be
1:10:30doing this.
1:10:32We'd be falling behind if we don't do it
1:10:34and nobody's looking over our shoulders.
1:10:36And that I think is is your job. So, I I
1:10:38think there is a definite uh air of
1:10:43urgency and total secrecy. Um if the if
1:10:47any current research is going on and if
1:10:49it's conducted in any comparable level
1:10:53of secrecy to the original MK Ultra,
1:10:55it's very deeply secret. But it seems
1:10:57>> you said though, it's going to be hard
1:10:59for Congress to act when they're so
1:11:01dadgum compromised. Let's just be
1:11:03honest. I mean, y'all are in the
1:11:05business of
1:11:07of
1:11:08twisting ears and and telling us
1:11:12things that we've done
1:11:14and that that that sways a lot of people
1:11:17up here. Somebody doesn't want to wreck
1:11:18a marriage or their business or lose
1:11:21this glamorous job that we have.
1:11:24Um and so I I I suspect that has a lot
1:11:27of play into it. Sorry to interrupt you.
1:11:29Um
1:11:30I apologize.
1:11:31>> All I mean to say is that I think if
1:11:34there are such projects going on inside
1:11:37the US government, uh there there might
1:11:40be a sense that uh we can do this
1:11:42without any hostile supervision.
1:11:45>> What are the possibilities that
1:11:48that what we've learned in MK Ultra now
1:11:50that it is advanced so much to
1:11:52algorithms and and the computer and
1:11:55getting to
1:11:57loners that some of these loners could
1:12:01through this just mass
1:12:03propagation of whatever you're doing
1:12:06uh could cause someone to maybe take a
1:12:10shot at a president.
1:12:16>> I
1:12:17I know there's a lot of speculation out
1:12:19there about the uh Butler shooting and I
1:12:23guess even the Charlie Kirk shooting.
1:12:26I just hate to speculate um
1:12:28because I don't know. I have no
1:12:30firsthand knowledge whether those guys
1:12:32were programmed through radio waves or
1:12:35through their computer activity. So I
1:12:38would never hazard a guess except to say
1:12:41what I've already said that they
1:12:42developed means that we've never been
1:12:45told about many, many years ago and I
1:12:48imagine they've evolved to be much more
1:12:51effective now as
1:12:51>> Let me possible.
1:12:52>> more time and I apologize again, but
1:12:55don't you think that they could cast
1:12:57this broad net through these algorithms
1:12:59and other things and maybe they don't
1:13:00know the exact person it's going to
1:13:03affect, but they know what type of
1:13:04person it's going to affect and they
1:13:06know it's going to happen and that way
1:13:08they can they can't predict when it's
1:13:10going to happen, but they think it will
1:13:11happen and then that way they can sort
1:13:14of wash their hands of this whole thing
1:13:16and say we didn't have anything to do
1:13:17with it, but in effect they really did
1:13:20because they uh
1:13:21they put this out there and they
1:13:22continue to put it out there
1:13:25through whatever method you're talking
1:13:26about. Go ahead, guys. I'm sorry. Ma'am,
1:13:29if you want to jump in.
1:13:30>> She's within NIH.
1:13:31>> Okay.
1:13:32Doctor, go ahead.
1:13:33>> It sounds to me like you're describing
1:13:35something like the Martin Luther King
1:13:37assassination. The FBI didn't carry it
1:13:40out, but it created such a climate just
1:13:42denouncing King as the most dangerous
1:13:45man in America and putting out all this
1:13:47material about how he was helping
1:13:48communists and they must have thought
1:13:50it's going to filter down. Somebody will
1:13:52take action and then we can say we
1:13:54didn't have anything to do with it.
1:13:55>> And James Earl Ray was
1:13:57a third-rate thief.
1:13:59He made a incredible shot one foot on a
1:14:01commode, one foot in a in a bathtub
1:14:05uh leaning out of a window basically and
1:14:08um
1:14:09the next day the um or that afternoon
1:14:11all the shrubbery was cut in front of
1:14:13the flop house he was staying in there's
1:14:14a lot on that one that will never be
1:14:16discussed. I have some friends that were
1:14:17there so I guess I could I'm
1:14:20pretty close to first-hand knowledge,
1:14:22but um yeah, I'm sorry.
1:14:26I'm probably going to get audited when I
1:14:27walk out of the room. I just I know it
1:14:29so
1:14:30thank you. Um Chairlady, I yield back my
1:14:32four seconds.
1:14:33>> Thank you, Rep uh Rep Rouzer. I would
1:14:35now like to now recognize Representative
1:14:37Boebert for five minutes.
1:14:39Thank you and I would love to let you
1:14:40gentlemen um just talk some here, but
1:14:43when when we're bringing up um
1:14:46uh operations like uh Naomi and MK
1:14:49Ultra, there's Operation Mockingbird
1:14:51that was going on at the same time as MK
1:14:54Ultra, and it really ties into uh what
1:14:57Congressman Burchett was was talking
1:14:59about with radio waves where where we
1:15:02have these these um
1:15:04like a a Venn a Venn diagram of uh
1:15:07individual people and the military
1:15:08casting a broader net. Uh so you have
1:15:11the radio waves, computer activity, um
1:15:13the Operation Mockingbird programming
1:15:15that is taking place. Um so what do you
1:15:18see in relation to what was happening
1:15:21then and and what we are seeing now um
1:15:24that that could be types of the same
1:15:27kind of programs and even using directed
1:15:30energy weapons or the like.
1:15:33Mr. O'Neill, you can begin.
1:15:35>> I I would just like to say one thing.
1:15:37There was an objective outlined in the
1:15:40early
1:15:41proposals for MK Ultra to do
1:15:44experimentation to see whether they
1:15:46could do mass conversion, you know,
1:15:48convert entire populations. I think that
1:15:50had something to do with the France
1:15:52incident that you were talking about
1:15:54earlier.
1:15:55Um again, today I it's all speculation,
1:15:58but um
1:16:00back then, they were um trying to use
1:16:04psychological
1:16:05uh means to see what you could
1:16:08how you could influence people's
1:16:10thoughts.
1:16:11Um and Mockingbird played into that,
1:16:13which if people don't know, that was
1:16:15where they had uh CIA assets or co-opted
1:16:18people in the media who would write
1:16:20write basically propaganda and uh try to
1:16:23control the thoughts and and and beliefs
1:16:27of of the population to what the CIA
1:16:30needed. And um
1:16:32is it still going on today? I I I would
1:16:35be surprised if it wasn't.
1:16:36>> Sure. I think we saw it even during
1:16:37COVID with uh all of the NIH funding
1:16:41that went uh to COVID um and and the
1:16:43Wuhan lab and and then everything that
1:16:45came out of that trying to make people
1:16:47believe in something that wasn't there.
1:16:48Miss Dr. Kinzie here Kinzer,
1:16:51do you have anything on this?
1:16:55>> I would say only that in the modern age
1:16:58maybe radio waves and drugs are not
1:17:01necessary to control people's minds. We
1:17:04we have such a great advertising
1:17:06propaganda press
1:17:08social media
1:17:10collaboration that certain opinions are
1:17:13marginalized and real debate is
1:17:15frustrated because people are not given
1:17:17access to full amounts of information.
1:17:19So that's a way of controlling minds of
1:17:22populations that doesn't even require
1:17:24sophisticated electronic or
1:17:27psychopharmacological means.
1:17:31>> Anything else you'd like to add for our
1:17:32next 2 minutes here?
1:17:34That we haven't Maybe maybe you have
1:17:36answers to questions we haven't asked.
1:17:40>> I would just like to reiterate something
1:17:42that I said in response to an earlier
1:17:44question and that is that there's a
1:17:46reason why conspiracy theories are so
1:17:49widespread in America. It has to do with
1:17:51the disassociation between what we say
1:17:54we are and do and what we really are and
1:17:57do. This has become more and more clear
1:17:59to more and more people. Therefore,
1:18:01they're suspicious of
1:18:04nefarious dealings by the US and they're
1:18:07also suspicious of other things that
1:18:08aren't nefarious at all, but there's
1:18:10just this mentality that is created by
1:18:13the covert sphere and that is what makes
1:18:18people realize that things that used to
1:18:21seem really far-fetched
1:18:23are not so far-fetched after all.
1:18:25>> Yes, well, you know, Congress we we
1:18:26create these agencies and we even
1:18:30provide their funding. We appropriate
1:18:31that funding and and then they are they
1:18:34come before us often and are are too big
1:18:38to even answer simple questions that we
1:18:40have and and be held to account. So, it
1:18:43it it does cause for a lot of deceit,
1:18:47a lot of doubt in the American people
1:18:49and certainly within
1:18:51us as members of Congress when these
1:18:53agencies refuse to answer to us, the the
1:18:56branch of government that actually
1:18:57creates them and and provides their
1:18:59funding. And then of course, the
1:19:00American taxpayer whose money is being
1:19:03stolen to fund all of their programs and
1:19:06agencies. So, I think that would be
1:19:07another reason how these
1:19:09conspiracy theories grow because
1:19:12government has grown so big it won't
1:19:14answer to the people. Maybe they just
1:19:16think the people are too dumb to
1:19:17understand, but certainly we want to get
1:19:19answers to the people and I I appreciate
1:19:22you gentlemen for being here today.
1:19:24Madam Chair, I yield.
1:19:25>> Thank you, Representative Boebert.
1:19:26Representative Burchett, do you have any
1:19:28further questions?
1:19:29Okay, I now recognize Representative
1:19:31Burchett for 5 minutes.
1:19:33>> Mr. O'Neill,
1:19:34going back to
1:19:36Charles Manson and Helter Skelter
1:19:38incident, can can you explain how in the
1:19:41world someone who is an illiterate
1:19:43musician
1:19:45that seemed to be not exactly the
1:19:47brightest person somehow became a cult
1:19:49leader and and I was able to
1:19:53you know, inspire all of all of these
1:19:55individuals to do crazy things.
1:19:58>> Unfortunately, I spent 20 years trying
1:20:01to find out how that happened and
1:20:05what I was able to prove was that from
1:20:08the moment Manson was released from
1:20:10federal prison in 1967,
1:20:12he violated his parole, went to the Bay
1:20:15Area without permission and was
1:20:17immediately put under the supervision of
1:20:19a federal parole officer who basically
1:20:21gave him leniency as he gathered his
1:20:25group of followers, gave them drugs,
1:20:30dominated them, turned them into more or
1:20:32less subservient robots who would do
1:20:34anything he said. All that happened
1:20:37under the watchful eye of
1:20:39a parole officer named Roger Smith who
1:20:41was also doing drug research at the same
1:20:43clinic that Jolly West had set up his
1:20:46operation to recruit subjects.
1:20:49All the way until 1969 when Manson
1:20:51finally ordered the murders that he was
1:20:54later convicted of, he had been arrested
1:20:58repeatedly for escalating
1:21:01crimes beginning with petty
1:21:04petty thievery, stealing cars, and then
1:21:06rape, attempted murder, drug possession.
1:21:10Each time, not only was he prosecuted,
1:21:14his parole wasn't violated. So, the
1:21:16federal government
1:21:18in some capacity enabled him to do what
1:21:21he did and
1:21:24flourished until these crimes happened.
1:21:26And in my book, I I make a case and it's
1:21:29it's a fairly radical case that there it
1:21:32was part of an operation called
1:21:34Chaos, also with the CIA that we haven't
1:21:37talked about today cuz it really doesn't
1:21:39have anything to do with drug research,
1:21:41but it was
1:21:42created to neutralize what the
1:21:46government believed was a revolution
1:21:48that was happening in America in the
1:21:49'60s beginning with the
1:21:51anti-war movement and then the black
1:21:53militancy movement and the Panthers. So,
1:21:56it's kind of a big stew of um
1:21:59cauldron of possibilities that Manson
1:22:04emerged from all that when I don't think
1:22:06he should have.
1:22:07>> Yeah, it's it's fascinating that you
1:22:09have an individual, Jolly West, who was
1:22:12working with this parole officer
1:22:15provide you know, you think the parole
1:22:17officer was making the connection so
1:22:19that the drugs were then flowing
1:22:21through?
1:22:22>> Well, the parole officer was at the same
1:22:24time he He
1:22:26supervising Manson's parole, running a
1:22:28research project called the amphetamine
1:22:30research project out of that clinic, and
1:22:34that was studying
1:22:36amphetamines and violence and drugs and
1:22:38group behavior and gangs in the Bay
1:22:41Area.
1:22:43Um
1:22:46Again, I I I hate to speculate. I know
1:22:48it sounds like a cop out, but when you
1:22:50see the tentacles that
1:22:53cross paths with Manson when he got to
1:22:55Los Angeles as well. Um
1:22:58I believe that he was
1:23:00co- I mean, he was manipulated and at
1:23:03the very least given freedom to do what
1:23:05he did while he was being observed.
1:23:08>> And then the same individual, Jolly
1:23:10West, ends up
1:23:13in Okla- in Oklahoma, correct? So,
1:23:16that's where he where he was he
1:23:17operating out of Oklahoma for during
1:23:20this time with Mr.
1:23:21>> When he contracted with the CIA, he was
1:23:23at Lackland Air Force Base. He was the
1:23:26chief psychiatrist at the hospital, so
1:23:28he began his experiments there. Um
1:23:32A year after the letter that I quoted in
1:23:34my statement where he was describing
1:23:37what he wanted to do.
1:23:39A year later, on July 3rd, 1954,
1:23:43a three-year-old girl was abducted and
1:23:46found later in a gravel pit murdered
1:23:50and next to a car that had been
1:23:53abandoned, and the search party that
1:23:55found the little girl's body was
1:23:57approached by a man who was an airman at
1:24:00the base, and he asked them where he was
1:24:03and how he had gotten there.
1:24:05He was arrested for the murder and
1:24:08described by the
1:24:10military officers who had him in custody
1:24:12as being in a trance or daze. He didn't
1:24:15have any drugs in his system. He didn't
1:24:17recognize his wife when she was brought
1:24:19to see him, and at his trial where Jolly
1:24:22West was his advising psychiatrist who
1:24:25examined him.
1:24:26>> Of course.
1:24:27>> Um it emerged that he had actually been
1:24:30being treated at the hospital at
1:24:32Lackland for
1:24:33for in an experimental program to cure
1:24:35his chronic debilitating migraine
1:24:38headaches and he was executed 4 years
1:24:40later.
1:24:40>> And then years later he ends up
1:24:42volunteering
1:24:44um for to to handle the Jack Ruby.
1:24:47>> West does, yeah.
1:24:49>> Right.
1:24:50Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
1:24:51>> So just before we wrap up, is it in your
1:24:54expert opinion that Jack Ruby and Manson
1:24:57were
1:24:58assets of the intelligence agencies
1:25:00specifically pertaining to MK Ultra?
1:25:02Were they MK Ultra victims?
1:25:03>> Yeah, I theoretically Manson I I've
1:25:05never been able to prove absolutely.
1:25:07Jack Ruby, I believe
1:25:10this is something else. The Warren
1:25:11Commission investigation
1:25:13uh
1:25:14on the Warren Commission was Allen
1:25:16Dulles, the former CIA director,
1:25:19who authorized and and ran MK Ultra
1:25:21until he was fired by President Kennedy.
1:25:24The liaison to the committee for the CIA
1:25:27who handled the information coming from
1:25:29the CIA back and forth to the Warren
1:25:31Commission was Richard Helms, who was a
1:25:33direct supervisor of Jolly West. They
1:25:36knew who West was. They knew that um
1:25:39what West was capable of and what they
1:25:41had paid him to do and what he had
1:25:42reported to them that he could do,
1:25:44including inducing um mental disorders
1:25:47in people. Uh that was never disclosed
1:25:50to the commission as far as anyone
1:25:52knows. Uh so I believe that West was put
1:25:54in there to keep Jack Ruby from telling
1:25:57his story.
1:25:59>> Um wow. Um in closing, I just want to
1:26:02thank you all for being here today and
1:26:04we will be following up Dr. Kinzer on
1:26:06your request to fully redact um I'll be
1:26:09following up personally with the
1:26:10director of the CIA um the MK Ultra
1:26:12files that we do have. Also, as I noted
1:26:15earlier, there will be more that will be
1:26:16declassified
1:26:18um specifically pertaining to newly
1:26:20found records that were located and what
1:26:23we were discussing earlier.
1:26:25I did also want to just state that for
1:26:27the record in regards to what statements
1:26:29were made earlier regarding the German
1:26:31government, we will also be following up
1:26:32on that. If there are indeed people that
1:26:34were victims of this that have been
1:26:36buried, we would like to know who those
1:26:37people are and who their families are as
1:26:39well in order to correct the historical
1:26:42wrongdoings of this government. Without
1:26:45further ado, I would like to state that
1:26:47all members have five legislative days
1:26:49within to submit materials and
1:26:50additional written questions for the
1:26:51witnesses that will be then forward to
1:26:53them. If there are no further business
1:26:55without objection, the task force stands
1:26:57adjourned.

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