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Full interview with Andrew Malkinson - wrongly imprisoned for 17 years | The News Agents — Transcript

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0:00We are joined in the studio now by
0:02Andy Malkinson. And if that name is
0:05sounding familiar to you, he was the man
0:07whose rape conviction was overturned and
0:12is getting used to the idea of freedom,
0:14if not yet normality. And we'll come to
0:17that in a minute. And we're also joined
0:19by James Burley. Now, he is the
0:21investigator from the charity Appeal,
0:24which has played such a pivotal role in
0:27unearthing new evidence that has led to
0:30the quashing of Andy's sentence. Andy,
0:33look, it's great to have you with us on
0:34the News Agents. Thank you very much for
0:36coming in to talk to us. And I know
0:38you've done an awful lot of this sort of
0:40stuff, but this will be the first, I
0:41think, lengthy interview that you've
0:44done.
0:44Yeah.
0:45Um I guess my first question is, are you
0:47getting used to the idea of freedom?
0:50Yes, very slowly. I mean, it's not been
0:52long now, but I am, yeah, getting used
0:54to it. I've I've dreamed about this,
0:56overturning it,
0:58so many times
1:00that
1:01uh and it's still early days, of course.
1:03It's only a week,
1:04less than 2 weeks since it was
1:06overturned.
1:07But yeah, it feels good.
1:09Andy, could you just just in case people
1:11listening aren't familiar with your
1:12case, could you just give a kind of
1:14brief potted history? I know it's a very
1:16complicated thing, but just a sort of
1:18outline of what happened and when.
1:20Right. I
1:23I was resident a permanent resident of
1:24the Netherlands since '93.
1:27I found myself in England in 2003
1:30after 10 years.
1:32citizen, though, right? Not
1:33I wasn't a citizen, no. But I was
1:35legally staying. I had all my
1:37verblijfsvergunning, and my my my
1:39residency permits. I had a tax file
1:42number. I still I think I don't know if
1:43it's still active, but um
1:45I was a permanent resident of the
1:47Netherlands, legal, everything, working.
1:50Uh
1:51and I found myself in the UK in 2003
1:55uh for a long complicated reasons, but
1:58um
1:58yeah, I was just picked up for for a for
2:01a
2:02violent horrific rape
2:05and questioned
2:06and at that point I thought
2:09this is really bad. This is terrible.
2:10They think I'm a suspect. But I was sure
2:13it would be quickly resolved
2:15and they'd realize I'm not the guy.
2:18And they never did?
2:19They never did.
2:20And in the court case it was purely
2:23dependent on identification.
2:26There was no Yeah, forensic evidence
2:29No.
2:29linking you
2:31to the scene.
2:32Absolutely none. There never was, of
2:34course. Um
2:35Uh
2:36but um it I I was convicted entirely on
2:39eyewitness testimony.
2:40Um and in fact, there was a lot of
2:43the the description given by the the
2:44victim
2:46um many many aspects of her description
2:49absolutely didn't fit me. So, I was
2:51astonished that I was even a suspect.
2:54It was it was strange.
2:56As the trial was was progressing, did
2:58you always assume that
3:01justice would prevail that you were
3:03going to
3:04not be convicted or could you sense
3:07during the trial that something was
3:08happening that you were not in control
3:10of?
3:11Yeah, both those things are true. I did
3:12hope fervently that
3:15that the truth would be unearthed and
3:17they would realize it was not me.
3:20At the same time
3:21as the trial progressed I got a very
3:25dark feeling about being fitted up. I I
3:29sensed being fitted up rather than knew
3:31it
3:32because at that point I didn't know how
3:33they were doing it. I didn't know why
3:35two
3:36I didn't know know why all three
3:37witnesses had identified me, but they
3:39did
3:40and I was very confused as as to why
3:43because I never went out and the during
3:45the few weeks I was staying there
3:47I never went out at night, ever.
3:49You You I was working all day. I was
3:51tired.
3:53I bought a few cans of beer, sat in
3:54front of the TV, and just fell asleep.
3:56That was it. I never ever went outside.
3:58So, these people saying they saw me out
3:59was a complete mystery. And and it felt
4:03I've said it before, like a car crash. I
4:04was going through the windscreen in slow
4:06motion. And how do you stop something as
4:08big as that?
4:09It must have felt completely
4:10overwhelming.
4:11It was. Yeah. Yeah.
4:14To have the sort of the state
4:16Yeah.
4:17basically slowly
4:19piling this case that you couldn't stop.
4:21That's absolutely right. It did. It was
4:23overwhelming. And I can't really
4:24articulate
4:26how overwhelming it was. It was just
4:28devastating. I couldn't believe It had
4:31this very surreal quality to it. So, why
4:33why me? Why am I being framed for this?
4:37And
4:38you used the word why was I being fitted
4:41up?
4:41Yeah.
4:42What does that mean?
4:44Well,
4:45like I said, the the description didn't
4:46fit me in any way except for I had dark
4:49skin. I always had dark skin.
4:51Everything else didn't fit me. So, what?
4:54You know, the scratch.
4:56The the victim said she clearly very
4:58clearly unambiguously scratched
5:01her assailant's face.
5:03You know, causing a scratch a deep She
5:05said, "I've caused a deep scratch from
5:06the upper jaw No, sorry, the cheekbone
5:09down to the jaw."
5:11And I was seen by many people. I was
5:13working in a shopping center.
5:16I was I was seen by so many people.
5:18Nobody
5:19saw me with any scratches because I I
5:21never had any.
5:22James, let me bring you in now because
5:24um
5:26aspects of this about the two
5:27eyewitnesses.
5:29I mean, there there was parts of their
5:30background that were not disclosed to
5:33the court, which is such stuff that you
5:36have since found out. Is that correct?
5:37Yeah, absolutely. So, these were two
5:39witnesses who were presented as being
5:41honest witnesses acting effectively out
5:43of a sense of civic duty. Um
5:46but through uh really
5:48uh
5:49dogged investigation, including taking
5:51the police to court, we actually
5:52discovered that there was a lot more to
5:53these people. Um so, they were a couple.
5:56Um
5:58There was The jury had no reason to
5:59doubt that these were anything other
6:00than respectable uh sort of upstanding
6:03citizens. In fact, they both had
6:05criminal histories uh including for
6:06dishonesty offenses. Uh the male witness
6:09uh was a a long-time heroin user. Uh and
6:12most remarkably,
6:14we managed to find out that he'd been
6:15arrested on the date that he came
6:17forward as a witness and also arrested
6:18on the date about 6 months later when he
6:21first identified Andy. And what was so
6:24remarkable about him was that um
6:27his purported sightings lasted a matter
6:29of seconds. They were made from a moving
6:30vehicle.
6:31And then 6 months on, he picks out Andy
6:33after being arrested, taken to court.
6:35And then uh he comes to to court uh in
6:38Andy's case and essentially gives
6:40evidence that he's completely certain
6:42he's made the correct identification.
6:44And the jury just had no idea about this
6:45information. Um
6:46So, the jury had no idea and the defense
6:48team had no idea.
6:49No, and the defense actually made an
6:51explicit disclosure request for the
6:53previous convictions of all civilian
6:55witnesses and yet these ones weren't
6:56disclosed.
6:56Andy, you were sighing deeply there.
6:59Yeah, because it's it's still sounds so
7:02implausible.
7:04And you know,
7:07how how could that even happen, you
7:09know, this this sequence of events?
7:12And then you're And
7:13And then you're in prison
7:15for a crime that you haven't committed.
7:17Yeah.
7:19And here is the sort of
7:21almost a Faustian deal
7:23Yeah.
7:24that you're confronted with, which is
7:26you can get out of prison early
7:29if you admit your guilt and go to
7:32classes with other sex offenders and
7:34whatever else.
7:35Or you can maintain your innocence,
7:37which you did, and you served an extra
7:4110 years of your life
7:43Yes.
7:43Locked behind bars.
7:44Yes. Yes, that's that's that's accurate.
7:46Describe what
7:48Uh well, it's not quite as simple as
7:50simply admitting um your guilty.
7:54Um it's more, you know, you can't sign a
7:56paper and say, "Okay, I did it." and
7:57then they'll they'll put you back on the
7:59streets. It's not like that. You have to
8:01undergo intensive uh
8:04uh sex offender treatments. Used to be
8:05called SOTP. They've simply renamed it
8:07now after
8:09after 2014, it was discovered that
8:11despite holding me to ransom about doing
8:13these courses,
8:15they're actually causing um an increase
8:18in the risk of reoffending.
8:21So,
8:22I was held on a a completely false
8:23premise there, past way past my tariff.
8:27And uh
8:28I thought about doing it. I I
8:30you know, but you're going to sit there
8:32and listen to horror stories. People
8:34have done terrible things.
8:36And that's damaging enough to have to
8:37sit there
8:39and be included in that subset and then
8:41asked to
8:43describe
8:44what you'd
8:45done when you don't find what you've
8:47done nothing.
8:48That was an impossible
8:50choice.
8:50Were you ever tempted to do it?
8:53No, I didn't even attempt, but I went
8:54through it painstakingly in my head. I
8:56said, "Well, what what if I just just
8:59bite the bullet and say I did it?"
9:01But then, you know, the
9:02the the whole the whole group will then
9:04pick you apart. What did you do wrong?
9:06What were you feeling at the time? And
9:07you just couldn't do it. You know,
9:09you're going to get like Listen, I
9:10didn't do it. I I didn't do it.
9:12And before we uh move on completely to
9:14the prison experience, were there other
9:16James, were there other problems with
9:19the prosecution case other than just the
9:21other than the the unreliable,
9:23incredible nature of the witnesses?
9:25Well, I mean, the fundamental thing was
9:27that uh there was non-disclosure. So,
9:29the jury and the defense weren't aware
9:31of a lot of these weaknesses, but yeah,
9:32I mean, there was a weakness anyway cuz
9:33the case was entirely dependent on
9:35identification evidence, which we know
9:37is a notorious source of uh wrongful
9:40convictions. And um
9:42prosecution also had this issue, which
9:44is that there was no forensic evidence
9:45against Andy. And the way they explained
9:47that away was by arguing a really
9:49unscientific uh sort of idea, but they
9:51argued that he was forensically aware
9:53and that he had somehow deliberately
9:55made sure he didn't leave any kind of
9:56trace. And when you know the details of
9:58the attack, you know that that's just
10:00such a nonsense idea.
10:01And so, Andy, you end up getting
10:03convicted. What was your initial
10:04sentence?
10:06Um discretionary life sentence with a
10:08tariff of 7 years from the time of
10:10arrest.
10:11And you spend that first night
10:14with that sentence in the prison cell
10:15knowing that you're facing down that
10:17sentence.
10:18After conviction, yeah. And sentencing,
10:20yeah. Yeah, it was a terrible terrible
10:22time.
10:23Terrible psychological burden thinking,
10:25you know,
10:27what's just happened to me, you know, uh
10:29why am I why am I looking at an
10:30indeterminate period behind bars? Maybe
10:33I'll die here. You know, that's a real
10:35fear.
10:36Dying in prison. And so, or even dying
10:38at your own hands.
10:40You know, giving giving up and dying at
10:42your own hands. Lots of people kill
10:43themselves in prison.
10:44Did you think about it?
10:45Yeah.
10:46Yeah. I thought about a lot of stuff.
10:49You know, how did I how did this happen?
10:51How did I end up here? You know, why why
10:52did the witness say they saw me? You
10:55know, I thought about suicide as well,
10:56yeah.
10:57And of course, it's a tough
10:59environment to be in at any time for any
11:03person.
11:03Yeah.
11:04But I guess if you're a sex offender and
11:07you have been convicted of rape,
11:09Yeah, it's the lowest of the low.
11:11So, what how were you treated?
11:12I was treated terribly, abominably. The
11:15the the the the prison officers, the
11:18screws we call them,
11:20they make every
11:22waking moments of your life in prison as
11:24miserable as they pos- possibly can. You
11:27know, there's all kinds of ways they can
11:28and do do that.
11:30Like what?
11:30Uh you know, um
11:34A guy was at guys for example. There was
11:36one guy they try to intimidate you all
11:38the time. Try to push your buttons to
11:39make you kick off and it works on a lot
11:41of people cuz there's a lot of volatile
11:42people there.
11:43But it never worked with me, but it
11:45comes at a psychological cost. You
11:47they they demean you. They're
11:49intimidating you. You want to shout out
11:51and say something, but you just
11:53hold your tongue
11:55and take on awful lot of crap.
11:57Um you know, um
11:59For example,
12:01HMP Franklin I tried to get some new
12:03trainers. You can only get them from
12:05approved suppliers. I think it's M&M's.
12:08I applied over and over and over again.
12:10The original applications go missing.
12:13It's it's a tactic they use on everybody
12:14who's refusing to do the courses. It's
12:16to grind you down.
12:18They they don't so easily, you know,
12:20take you down the seg and give you a
12:22kicking although it still happens.
12:24They they they go psychological warfare
12:26on you. And it's terrible.
12:29It's awful.
12:30Were you subject to any violence from
12:31anyone while you were there? Presumably
12:32or
12:33Not subject to, but there's a constant
12:35threat of it, you know. People
12:37fronting up to you, challenging you and
12:40you don't want to come across as too
12:42much of a sap and go go please leave me
12:44alone,
12:45but you kind of
12:49I hold my tongue a lot, you know, and
12:51just just look at them look look look at
12:53them straight back and hope they don't
12:56smack me
12:57or stab me
12:59or burn me.
13:00Were you
13:01telling other people in the prison that
13:03you were innocent? I mean, the cliche is
13:05that everyone says they're innocent,
13:06right?
13:07Yeah, that is a cliche and it's not
13:08true.
13:08Not true?
13:09No. No, most people are very open with
13:11me and say, "Well, I did it." And and a
13:12few guys said, "Well, I did it and this
13:14is this is real hell being in here. So,
13:17I can't imagine if you're innocent like
13:18you say, I can't imagine what you're
13:20going through."
13:21Quite a few did. Quite a few didn't.
13:24And you then tried to go through
13:27an appeals process.
13:29Yeah.
13:30Which got nowhere.
13:31No, they dismissed it.
13:33They just dismissed it.
13:35Which raises questions, um,
13:37James, about
13:39the way the system works.
13:41And the Criminal Cases Review
13:44Commission, which is the body that is
13:46charged to investigate these things, you
13:47found things they didn't.
13:49Yeah, and I mean, it's, uh, really a
13:51catastrophic failure on their part
13:53because they've got specific statutory
13:54powers that allowed them to compel
13:56police forces to hand over material. Um,
13:59we don't have a right of access like
14:00that at appeal, you know, we had to take
14:02the police to court twice in order to
14:04get the disclosure that we got. And, you
14:06know, the CCRC, Andy first applied to
14:09them in 2009.
14:11And the evidence which the Court of
14:13Appeal yesterday ruled, uh, rendered
14:15Andy's conviction unsafe, was sitting in
14:18police boxes of material
14:20since the time of his arrest and
14:21subsequent conviction. And, you know,
14:24the CCRC, if they'd simply in 2009
14:27gotten the police files, which they had
14:29the power to do,
14:29Just explain the CCRC.
14:30So, yeah, the Criminal Cases Review
14:32Commission, uh, the body that's meant to
14:33investigate miscarriages of justice. If
14:35they'd simply got those police files in
14:372009, went through them, they would have
14:39uncovered this evidence, and it probably
14:41would have saved Andy a a decade in
14:42prison.
14:43they?
14:43Why didn't they?
14:45There's real issues with the CCRC, so, I
14:47mean, there is underfunding, but that
14:48doesn't anywhere near explain, uh, their
14:50failings. There's a real cultural issue,
14:52a sort of refusal to investigate cases
14:54because they see investigation often as
14:56speculative or a fishing expedition, and
14:58that's just a ridiculous mindset to
15:00have. If you don't look for evidence,
15:02you won't find it. And the difference is
15:04we look for it, and, you know, it it
15:06took us a lot of time and effort, but
15:07eventually we found this stuff, but they
15:08could have found it very easily
15:09themselves.
15:10you describe a total lack of curiosity,
15:12which is so fascinating because, I mean,
15:14look, you know, if you want to be a
15:15journalist, you've got to be curious,
15:17and you would have thought if you're
15:18part of a review commission, curiosity
15:21about what has happened and getting to
15:23the bottom of it is absolutely
15:25essential.
15:26Absolutely. You need to start with a
15:27kind of curious open mind and there's a
15:30very revealing comment by one of the
15:31case review managers who are That's the
15:33people who do the actual casework at the
15:34CCRC, which was recorded by an academic
15:37in a book about the CCRC written a few
15:39years back. And that case review manager
15:42basically said, "Well, it's obvious most
15:43of them have done it. I Most of them are
15:45guilty." And if you go into your job
15:48with that mindset, then of course you're
15:49going to convince yourself not to do an
15:51investigation. Um so there's a real
15:52issue there.
15:53So
15:55having looked at this, having been so
15:57closely involved with this,
15:59do you come away with the impression
16:02that
16:05Andy got unlucky,
16:07but realistically the criminal justice
16:09system is basically sound, or do you
16:11think there are real structural problems
16:14associated with the police, in this case
16:15Greater Manchester Police, and the
16:18appellant bodies that you go to? I'd
16:21like to get hear both of you on that.
16:22Andy, do you want to speak first?
16:24Yeah, there's a real problem. Yeah,
16:25there's a there's a real problem.
16:26There's many things uh could be fixed
16:29quite quite easily. Um
16:31I I don't think the police should have
16:32control of um evidence and disclosure.
16:35That should not be in their remit. They
16:37should concentrate on investigating
16:40cases
16:41and doing police work, you know. Uh
16:43there should be a separate body that
16:44holds the evidence so they can't cuz the
16:47it's Mine's not the only case where
16:48they've done this. They've deliberately
16:50destroyed
16:52pivotal evidence. I mean, the victim's
16:54clothing. That's obviously
16:57vital to preserve. But the
16:59they deliberately did that?
17:00I think they deliberately did that. So
17:02to to
17:03to strengthen the
17:04To extinguish any possibility of of me
17:06ever cuz they knew by then when they
17:08started to weed it, as they said,
17:10they knew by then I was strenuously
17:12continuing to maintain my innocence
17:13after 10 years and and onwards,
17:16You know.
17:16And that is shocking.
17:17It is very shocking, yeah. But I believe
17:19that's the truth. I think it's not an
17:21accident.
17:22Do you think you met other innocent
17:23people in prison?
17:24Yeah, I'm certain I did, yeah. Yeah,
17:25yeah.
17:26Still serving?
17:27Yeah, yeah, certainly, yeah. Yeah. I I
17:29have a friend who I can't identify, but
17:32I know for sure.
17:33We've heard about the sort of the the
17:35structural problems. I mean, I would
17:36imagine
17:38that Appeal
17:39gets endless letters from people saying,
17:42"I'm a victim of a miscarriage of
17:43justice. I shouldn't be in prison."
17:46You're a small charity. How on earth do
17:48you decide which cases to take up, which
17:50cases to you think, "Ah, we're not going
17:52near this one."
17:53I mean, we have to make really difficult
17:55decisions because we have limited
17:56resources.
17:57And you worked on this case for a long
17:58time.
17:59Yeah, um
18:00How long have you worked on it?
18:01Well, Appeal took on the case in 2017.
18:04I've been working on it for the last
18:05five five years or so. Um
18:07That's a lot of resources, a lot of
18:08money.
18:09Yeah, and you know, only a very small
18:10fraction of that was covered by legal
18:12aid. Um
18:13And you know, you you just look for
18:15those kind of
18:16clear kind of potential red flags in a
18:18case, you know,
18:19the discrepancies with description, lack
18:22of forensic evidence, etc. So, and then
18:23from that starting point, you think,
18:25"Okay, if this person is innocent,
18:27um what investigation should we do to
18:28try and find some evidence that supports
18:30that?"
18:31So, now
18:33welcome to the world.
18:35Thank you very
18:35A rainy a rainy August in London, um but
18:39I'll trade that anytime for a a single
18:41minute in prison.
18:42I'm sure you absolutely would. Um
18:45how do you see the future? What about
18:47compensation?
18:49Yeah, good point. Um obviously, I won't
18:51compensating because they can't give me
18:53back what they've stolen.
18:5417 years of your life.
18:56No, no, and it's not just the time
18:57taken, it's what what it represents.
18:59It's it's
19:01constant fear,
19:02uh pain, anxiety, misery,
19:06longing, yearning for freedom, and
19:08hoping that something will come along to
19:09prove it.
19:10So, it's a very joyless
19:13void.
19:15No joy, no happiness, no love. And it's
19:17it's it's a horrific existence.
19:21And um yeah, I want compensating for
19:23that. The only way they can do that is
19:24to give me a bunch of money. And
19:26How much have they offered you?
19:27Nobody's offered me anything yet.
19:29Do you have any idea how much you might
19:30receive?
19:31No.
19:33No.
19:34Um
19:36Is there any I mean
19:39the demeanor of government now. I heard
19:41the Justice Secretary on the radio this
19:43morning, who I thought was trying to
19:45strike a rather conciliatory tone and
19:47you know, was saying, "Look,
19:49anyone who's put in prison for a long
19:51time, you know, you've got to put the
19:52right the wrongs right."
19:54Yeah, yeah.
19:54Um
19:56do you feel that the people are waking
19:57up to this? That they're you know, are
19:59sympathetic now in terms of how they're
20:01going to deal with your case?
20:02I hope so. And I've got a generally
20:04positive feeling about the deluge of
20:07well-wishers. And it's a good move from
20:10the government to do what they've done,
20:12to rescind the
20:13ridiculous
20:15paying your captors
20:17for your own torture.
20:19Yeah, that's good. That's welcome.
20:21But there's much more needs to be done
20:22as well.
20:22That was the idea of you having to pay
20:25Yeah, your your bed and board out of
20:27your compensation. Yeah.
20:29Seems an extraordinary
20:30It's an incredible clawback mechanism to
20:32reduce what they
20:33Not not a hotel that you wish to stay
20:34in, I think it's fair to say. But isn't
20:36there something now about compensation
20:38that you have to prove your innocence
20:41beyond reasonable doubt before you're
20:44entitled
20:45Yeah.
20:46which if you've had a
20:47court case overturned as unreliable in
20:50the British legal system
20:51You are innocent.
20:52You are innocent. Because you're
20:53innocent or you're guilty.
20:54Yeah, you would have thought you've
20:55already done all that. You proved it
20:58amply.
20:58don't need to prove it.
20:59I don't need to prove it again, do I?
21:00Why why why why is that a thing?
21:02Greater Manchester Police have said that
21:04they're truly sorry for what happened.
21:06Do you accept their apology? Do you
21:08think that you don't?
21:09No. No, because I don't think it's a
21:11genuine apology. I think it's a PR
21:13exercise
21:14from a corporate entity. They They're
21:16not sorry. They've They fought us every
21:19inch of the way. We invited them to join
21:21Appeal invited them to join
21:23uh
21:24this CCRC application, and they
21:27point-blank refused. I don't even think
21:29they responded. They
21:30They fought disclosure of the vital
21:32evidence that they knew was important,
21:35and of course they must have known its
21:36significance.
21:38And they fought us all the way. So, and
21:40then suddenly to cuz it's been
21:41overturned say, "Oh, we're really sorry
21:42now."
21:44No.
21:45I suppose the other person in this
21:47that it must be appalling for is the
21:49victim.
21:50Exactly. Yeah. I mean, she's she's
21:53probably been retraumatized by all this
21:55thinking she got the right guy.
21:57It's not her fault at all. I want to
21:59make that clear. It's the way
22:01the the police the Greater Manchester
22:02police
22:04um
22:05got a tra- terribly traumatized woman
22:08to to identify
22:10she falsely identified me, but
22:14you know
22:15she wasn't in a
22:17good frame of mind either. Uh it was a
22:19loaded lineup as well. I think I was the
22:21only dark-skinned guy on it. And and I
22:24think I had the same T-shirt. So, it
22:26would be easy for somebody to
22:29I've no proof of this, but it'd be very
22:30easy for some officer to go
22:32"Guy in the black shirt."
22:34You know?
22:35But she has had presumably now has to
22:37live with the fact that she thought that
22:39the person who had
22:40be awful. committed the crime Yeah.
22:41had gone to prison, and that he hasn't,
22:43and he he well still be at large.
22:44Yeah, and 20 years later she's having to
22:46relive it all. It's the system that let
22:48her down as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's
22:50not just me.
22:51You know, the damage is immense. They've
22:53caused immense damage.
22:55To
22:55And your family and friends, I mean
22:57at the time you were obviously saying,
22:59"Look, I'm innocent." Did they all
23:00believe you?
23:00Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure they did. yeah.
23:02Nobody's voice
23:03That must have been a source of comfort.
23:04Yeah, it was, yeah. Nobody ever said to
23:06me we don't believe you, we think you
23:07might have done it. Nobody said that.
23:09They was all staunch
23:11behind me.
23:12It's a weird question, I know, but did
23:13you take anything from the prison
23:14experience? I mean, did you
23:16I mean, obviously it's changed you
23:18profoundly and you've got to live with
23:19it for the rest of your life. There's no
23:20getting away from it. Did you
23:22Did you learn anything?
23:22Did you take anything positive, you
23:23mean?
23:24Yeah.
23:25Uh
23:27Do you think you'll ever be able to get
23:28to a place where you can think about
23:30terrible thing
23:32to have to endure. It's hard to put
23:34anything positive spin on it, but I did.
23:37Uh for example, I I I did an Open
23:39University degree in maths and physics.
23:41I got that. I got my BSc.
23:44Uh and from that I I used that as a
23:46springboard to go for a master's
23:49in a southern university.
23:51Uh but um I had to stop because of the
23:53news of the DNA
23:55matching an unknown guy.
23:57Uh I just couldn't focus anymore, but
23:59I've taken
24:00I've I've learned a lot about myself.
24:02I've learned strengths I never knew I
24:03had
24:04through through adversity.
24:06Sure.
24:06You know, like anybody who in a similar
24:08situation would.
24:09Andy, let me ask you a sort of slightly
24:11crappy question that you get asked at
24:12careers interviews where you someone
24:14says to you, "So, tell me, how do you
24:15see yourself in 5 years' time?"
24:17yeah.
24:17Yeah, and I I'm I'm I'm not quite and I
24:19don't mean that in terms of well, I'll
24:20be working at a whatever or be a an
24:23astrophysicist at some research
24:25laboratory.
24:25That'll be nice.
24:26Yeah, and that'll be great, but I mean,
24:27I just wonder what you say how you see
24:29kind of life
24:30Is it about sleeping well? Is it about
24:33What what what is it you yearn for? What
24:35is it you crave in life?
24:37Yeah, it's actually a good question. Um
24:41I want my freedom back fully. Uh I want
24:44my economic freedom back.
24:46I want my compensation.
24:47Just Do you not feel totally free now,
24:49even now?
24:50Not really, no, because because there's
24:52still fights to be fought, you know? So,
24:55I'm not free of it. It's not I can't go
24:57that's that done.
24:58Yeah.
24:59I can't.
24:59The door hasn't shut yet.
25:00No, the door hasn't shut yet. I'm I'm
25:02still
25:03I'm still, you know, fighting. I'm
25:06haunted by it. I think I need therapy,
25:08to be honest.
25:10Are you going to Are you Are you going
25:11to get engaged in therapy?
25:13Yeah. Yeah, we're looking into it.
25:15Sure.
25:15Yeah.
25:16And but, you know, but the 5-year view,
25:18I mean, you know, hopefully in a year's
25:20time maybe these legal battles will be
25:22behind you.
25:23I hope so.
25:24And then
25:25you know, kind of after that?
25:27Yeah.
25:28Uh I want to resume traveling while I'm
25:29still able-bodied. I'm getting on a bit.
25:31I'm 57 now. You know,
25:33I want to travel
25:35to lots of places in the world I've
25:36never seen before. India, example. I
25:39want to go to Australia to see my
25:40sisters.
25:41I haven't seen them for 33 years.
25:43Um I just want to travel and feel that
25:46sense of freedom again where, you know,
25:49you've got no
25:51You got no worries. Brexit I
25:54I was a permanent resident in Holland.
25:56As 2016 approached, had I not been
25:59kidnapped by the UK state, um
26:02I would have I would have applied for
26:03Dutch nationality, a Dutch passport, and
26:05I would have
26:06almost certainly have got it because of
26:08my
26:09my long-standing association.
26:11So, I would have been there 25, 30 years
26:13by that point. So, um I was robbed of
26:16that opportunity to have
26:18You know, I don't want to be a UK
26:19citizen, to be honest.
26:20I don't want to be associated with this
26:22country anymore. I would like,
26:24ideally, in an ideal world, to have a
26:27Dutch passport and be a resume my EU
26:30status. I want to be I identify as a
26:32European above and beyond being English.
26:35But, I'm English by default. I was born
26:36here.
26:37So, um I would like, if possible, for
26:41the um for the ministers this side to
26:43contact the ministers on the Dutch side
26:46and see if they can
26:48perhaps arrange for me a Dutch passport
26:51as a as a humanitarian compassionate
26:54gesture
26:55after what
26:56what I've endured and the position it's
26:58left me in um not being able to visit
27:00Europe for more than 3 months at a time
27:01because of Brexit. I should be a Dutch
27:04citizen now.
27:07Very very best of luck to you. Thank you
27:09so much
27:10Thank you.
27:10for coming in to talk to us.
27:12You're welcome.
27:12Um
27:13and maybe come back and talk to us again
27:15a bit further down the road when
27:16hopefully some of these things are
27:17behind you.
27:18Sure. I'd love to.
27:20James
27:22Let me let us salute you as well for the
27:24amazing work
27:24indefatigable work
27:26Yeah.
27:26that you have done on this.
27:28The News Agents
27:30This is a Global Player original
27:32podcast.

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