FULL INTERVIEW (Part 1): Murdaugh murder investigators speak candidly after trial — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00I'll start with just I guess
2. 0:02um you know a lot of people saw you guys
3. 0:05um outside of the courthouse every day
4. 0:07you guys were here working every single
5. 0:10day morning to night
6. 0:11um what did you what were you guys doing
7. 0:13out here kind of walk people through
8. 0:14what you guys were doing and um how was
9. 0:17it you know kind of being this close to
10. 0:19the case that you all worked on for the
11. 0:21trial
12. 0:24on Joker first okay if not I'll keep
13. 0:26talking well our mornings you know we
14. 0:28were part of the security detail outside
15. 0:30the courthouse so you know our
16. 0:33priorities were getting the jury in the
17. 0:35judge in all the attorneys from the AG's
18. 0:37office and of course Alec
19. 0:40so
20. 0:41yeah morning routine pretty much went
21. 0:43the same every single day it was I was
22. 0:45kind of designed to work so
23. 0:47just kind of kept it organized
24. 0:50probably don't start the ones
25. 0:52uh well he was always here first that's
26. 0:55how my get here and I was usually you
27. 0:56know second or so he had already been
28. 0:58here half an hour at least
29. 1:02what about what six six thirty seconds I
30. 1:05started at six I started at 6 30 the
31. 1:07majority of them arrived 7 7 30. what
32. 1:10time
33. 1:10today
34. 1:12those first couple of nights were long
35. 1:14while they were picking drawers but on
36. 1:17average you know judge Newman said in
37. 1:19the beginning that he wasn't going to
38. 1:21keep the jurors long past 5 30 and he
39. 1:23was pretty much on the mark and by the
40. 1:26time they let out which was usually 5 30
41. 1:295 45 they're still
42. 1:3290 minutes of work after that
43. 1:35with the you know the securing of Alex
44. 1:37at the jail getting the jurors back to
45. 1:40their vehicles to judge cleared out the
46. 1:43property straight all the barricades
47. 1:45back up all the markers and all the
48. 1:47secure parking spots
49. 1:50everything closed out
50. 1:52hey the media was great yeah they really
51. 1:54were
52. 1:57we were very impressed
53. 2:00changed the opinion of a lot of law
54. 2:01enforcement for media big deal yeah big
55. 2:05deal
56. 2:07that's not being nice I'm being serious
57. 2:10it was wonderful
58. 2:12yeah we were expecting to have to hold
59. 2:14people back a lot more than what we did
60. 2:15and it was not like almost none of that
61. 2:17so we literally we laid out the
62. 2:19boundaries and the media police
63. 2:22themselves they would catch someone said
64. 2:24hey you can't stand there don't park
65. 2:26there back up you can always tell when
66. 2:28there was a new person there because
67. 2:30they would cross the line everyone else
68. 2:31was
69. 2:32just all right we don't do that
70. 2:33before we could even
71. 2:36yeah we're bossy we're like well we had
72. 2:39one guy at the end it was like the
73. 2:41kind of you know like two days before
74. 2:43the you know the end and he went through
75. 2:46the the red zone and I caught him out
76. 2:49the corner of my eye and as I turned to
77. 2:51say something to him he almost got
78. 2:53tackled by and I'm serious somebody
79. 2:56yelled scared me it was another
80. 2:57cameraman ran up grabbing pulled him
81. 2:59away
82. 3:00and I asked him later I said we
83. 3:03appreciate it but are you all like that
84. 3:04everywhere and he said what you don't
85. 3:05understand is he messes it up you move
86. 3:09everybody 30 feet back so everybody gets
87. 3:11blanketed punishment
88. 3:14so we didn't it wasn't bad
89. 3:20we had that happen
90. 3:25you know and all that kind of stuff so
91. 3:26we were definitely like please don't
92. 3:29take anything else
93. 3:30so that was good
94. 3:37he's here
95. 3:38um and really no joke like judge Newman
96. 3:40just protecting him and keeping that
97. 3:42Courthouse safe that must have weighed
98. 3:44heavily on y'all
99. 3:46it was a big feat and that's one of the
100. 3:49questions we've been asked the most how
101. 3:51how did it run so smooth and it ran so
102. 3:54smooth because of all these guys but
103. 3:57months of preparation it was probably
104. 4:02probably one of the larger undertakings
105. 4:04you know the the size of the operation
106. 4:07itself it's large but it's not massive
107. 4:10when you look at the grand scheme of
108. 4:11things but the the amount of planning
109. 4:14they had to go into it the thing the
110. 4:16barricade system up front just to keep
111. 4:18people moving what parking spaces we're
112. 4:21going to be designated for Emergency
113. 4:23Operations if we had a problem inside
114. 4:25how are we going to get paramedics or
115. 4:28firefighters inside or criminals out or
116. 4:31but just I mean literally we met once a
117. 4:34week for two months prior
118. 4:37um and that's just on our side you know
119. 4:39they had
120. 4:42the food truck deal and the power you
121. 4:44know all of us said we had power and
122. 4:46internet and all
123. 4:47all of those individuals they had their
124. 4:49hands full too but we literally started
125. 4:51a good two and a half months in advance
126. 4:53on security but we wanted it run and we
127. 4:57wanted it practiced and we wanted
128. 4:58everything done so when it was time to
129. 5:00start we didn't have any flaws and I
130. 5:03couldn't have been happier because you
131. 5:04know what was it two weeks in we had a
132. 5:06bomb threat and it was
133. 5:08I mean it worked like a a stopwatch man
134. 5:11it was great we had no issues and of
135. 5:14course we got a bomb threat we got a
136. 5:15bomb threat scare
137. 5:17[Music]
138. 5:19that's scary exactly of all the things
139. 5:21in the world
140. 5:29and we haven't
141. 5:31we haven't bailed on that we haven't
142. 5:33stopped the you know the investigation's
143. 5:35ongoing
144. 5:36um the problem is we're into the
145. 5:38electronic forensics part of it and it
146. 5:41takes forever you know do we have the
147. 5:42right guy yes do we have the device that
148. 5:44the call was made from yes how did that
149. 5:47happen so quick
150. 5:48like tying it back to that guy in that
151. 5:52jail got his phone you know it was
152. 5:54pretty quick you guys put out the
153. 5:55release with the update how was that so
154. 5:57quick
155. 5:59well the first part of it was Evac so
156. 6:02um
157. 6:03you know we're proud we pretty much had
158. 6:04the the entire property evacuated in
159. 6:07five minutes which is a pretty big deal
160. 6:09considering the number of people that
161. 6:10were here
162. 6:11the jurors and the judge were relocated
163. 6:14to a secure location
164. 6:16uh so secure that we had to remind some
165. 6:19of our Personnel where it was because
166. 6:21you know during that transfer but you
167. 6:23know they were they were quickly moved
168. 6:25without issue they were taking care of
169. 6:28actually fed lunch remotely at that
170. 6:30facility and as soon as those priorities
171. 6:33were off and uh Alex was secured at the
172. 6:37Detention Center we came right back to
173. 6:40the trailer where you all saw us for six
174. 6:42weeks and it started right there and it
175. 6:45was you know we brought in
176. 6:46representatives from the local phone
177. 6:48company from County I.T uh sled the
178. 6:51sheriff's office we had you know City
179. 6:54police department and City fire exactly
180. 6:57everybody here helping with the
181. 6:59evacuation part and then all the
182. 7:02detectives in the trailer working on
183. 7:04trying to get work back to the source
184. 7:06there was like two or three of us on on
185. 7:08the phone each of us talking to a
186. 7:09different analyst on the other end and
187. 7:11then we just kind of combined all
188. 7:12everything that we got in sled agents
189. 7:15were able to pinpoint where the the
190. 7:17phone was coming from and we all just
191. 7:19worked together and within six hours we
192. 7:22we had it so
193. 7:32work as officers on the scene to go
194. 7:36straight into that
195. 7:38um
196. 7:39who got the first call
197. 7:42well I was the first one there so I
198. 7:44guess that would be me so
199. 7:48um when you got the call to go to
200. 7:49Moselle did you know where you were
201. 7:51going
202. 7:52um so I I was I knew where I was going
203. 7:54as far as an address uh
204. 7:56who was going to be there like who the
205. 7:58caller actually was you know they said I
206. 8:01don't even think dispatch told me the
207. 8:02name of the radio I don't believe they
208. 8:03did but
209. 8:05um I had no idea who it was I had never
210. 8:07even been to
211. 8:09that specific address on Mozilla before
212. 8:12I obviously been down Moselle road but I
213. 8:15had never been called to that address or
214. 8:17that family or anything
215. 8:19um you know I think I was actually not
216. 8:21too far from the courthouse when I
217. 8:23originally was dispatched that call so I
218. 8:26would have been coming from right over
219. 8:27here on Hampton Street
220. 8:29um so you know it's gonna it was going
221. 8:30to take me every bit of close to 20
222. 8:32minutes to get out there even running
223. 8:33lights and Sirens because that type of
224. 8:36call you're gonna run licensed Sirens
225. 8:37too it's you know it's way out in the
226. 8:39middle of nowhere so uh no I just had no
227. 8:43idea who they were you know I get on
228. 8:45scene had never seen this guy before I
229. 8:47didn't remember ever seeing him on the
230. 8:49news or anything like that even with the
231. 8:51whole boat crash thing like I didn't pay
232. 8:52a whole lot of attention to that news
233. 8:54story so it's not like I remembered him
234. 8:56from that
235. 8:57but as soon as he mentioned the boat
236. 9:01crash Theory to me it clicked okay
237. 9:05that's who this is that's this family
238. 9:08but until then I had no idea who they
239. 9:11were
240. 9:11and um one thing that kind of stuck out
241. 9:14to me and I think you were saying this
242. 9:15in court you you know you were pulling
243. 9:18up to the scene or walking up or
244. 9:20something and it's Alex standing there
245. 9:22in the two bodies what like how was he
246. 9:25acting was it typical
247. 9:28um like what was his demeanor when you
248. 9:31pulled up and saw him and his family
249. 9:33members I mean he was obviously
250. 9:34extremely stressed I mean
251. 9:36really worked up just kind of all over
252. 9:38the place it
253. 9:41and it's hard to gauge someone's
254. 9:42reactions in a situation like that
255. 9:45because and they'll tell you this in
256. 9:47many homicide scenes as we've been on
257. 9:49there's such a wide variety of how
258. 9:52victims families and or suspects that
259. 9:54might still be there are acting
260. 9:56you know the human emotion is just
261. 10:00so unpredictable but you know getting
262. 10:02there walking up you know
263. 10:05that Paul was laying on the ground on my
264. 10:07left and Maggie was on the right and
265. 10:09just you know he's
266. 10:10standing you know I don't know 10 15
267. 10:12yards from where they were and
268. 10:15you just
269. 10:17kind of pacing all over the place and
270. 10:19just immediately wanted to
271. 10:21start trying to figure out or he wanted
272. 10:23to start putting blame on something so
273. 10:27did you think that was like different
274. 10:29and were you worried about someone I
275. 10:32mean you're in the middle of the country
276. 10:33it's late at night it's super dark out
277. 10:35there were you worried that someone was
278. 10:37going to pop up on the scene like was he
279. 10:40worried about that so it anytime you
280. 10:43show up to a scene like that
281. 10:45that thought is always going to be there
282. 10:47but the way that the call came in where
283. 10:50you know I got home
284. 10:52found them dead
285. 10:54now I'm and he's been out there for at
286. 10:57least 20 minutes before I got there
287. 10:59because whenever I got the call I that's
288. 11:02about how long it took me to get there
289. 11:04so
290. 11:05generally if something else were to
291. 11:07happen you know
292. 11:09somebody else had been there
293. 11:12something else would have already
294. 11:13happened before I got there they're not
295. 11:14going to wait for law enforcement to get
296. 11:16there to try anything
297. 11:18you weren't nervous you weren't like
298. 11:20thinking oh my gosh there could be a
299. 11:22killer on the loose on this property
300. 11:23right now or you trained to handle that
301. 11:26kind of stress
302. 11:28um I mean like I said the thought is
303. 11:30always there but
304. 11:31I handle high stress situations like
305. 11:34that fairly well
306. 11:35um you know I've been doing Road Patrol
307. 11:37for five years four or five years at
308. 11:39that point
309. 11:40um it wasn't wasn't anything brand new
310. 11:43it's not the first time I've come first
311. 11:45on scene to a homicide
312. 11:47um so it's nerve-wracking in a way but
313. 11:51you know I had 17 minutes or roughly of
314. 11:54driving on my way there to re you know
315. 11:57I'm running I've ran through 100
316. 11:58scenarios in my head at that point of
317. 12:00what happened you know you're already
318. 12:02thinking about things before you get to
319. 12:04the call any call you get dispatched to
320. 12:06even you know a simple alarm call you're
321. 12:08running through every possible scenario
322. 12:09am I going to get there and did the cat
323. 12:11set off the alarm or am I going to get
324. 12:12there and the front door is going to be
325. 12:13kicked in so any kind of call like that
326. 12:16you're already running through all the
327. 12:18scenarios in your head preparing for
328. 12:19whatever you're going to come up on
329. 12:21um
330. 12:29there was a lot of different options
331. 12:31running through my head of what could
332. 12:33have happened or what I'm about to walk
333. 12:34into but he dispatch kind of did a
334. 12:37pretty good job of telling me you know
335. 12:40he's out there on scene
336. 12:42they've been clearly shot
337. 12:45um and he's been out there for
338. 12:4720 minutes already so I'm not expecting
339. 12:49to walk into a gunfight obviously
340. 12:52um
341. 12:53and
342. 12:56because I didn't know who the family was
343. 12:58because none of this kind of triggered
344. 13:01anything in my head of this is going to
345. 13:04end up being a huge thing you know the
346. 13:07initial thought wasn't he killed his
347. 13:10wife and son like that that that wasn't
348. 13:13really one of the scenarios going
349. 13:14through my head on my way there because
350. 13:16he called and said I found them like
351. 13:17this so generally when you get a call
352. 13:20like that you go into it thinking that's
353. 13:22the truth so
354. 13:26um and I think all of you guys maybe
355. 13:28talked about this but he said that
356. 13:30around the bodies there was blood and
357. 13:32then water is that different or is that
358. 13:35and did you notice that right off the
359. 13:36bat
360. 13:38me walking up on scene uh you know I
361. 13:41obviously noticed the a lot of blood
362. 13:43around each of them the water that was
363. 13:46kind of around Paul's body
364. 13:48um didn't really
365. 13:51those Minor Details aren't something
366. 13:53you're looking at when you're walking
367. 13:54into a homicide scene when you first get
368. 13:57there obviously once more people are
369. 13:58getting there and you've got time to
370. 13:59actually gauge what's going on but you
371. 14:01know I'm doing more
372. 14:04I need to see everything going on right
373. 14:06now I need to I got to keep my eyes on
374. 14:08the dark woods the you know the shed off
375. 14:11in the distance the any kind of
376. 14:12headlights that might be popping up from
377. 14:14a vehicle that might be driving up
378. 14:15that's not supposed to be driving up
379. 14:16basically anybody that doesn't have red
380. 14:19or blue lights probably doesn't need to
381. 14:21be pulling up so you know I'm looking
382. 14:22for all of that kind of stuff so I'm not
383. 14:24it's not like I walked past Paul's body
384. 14:26and saw the water and thought oh that's
385. 14:28weird you know that didn't really
386. 14:31trigger for me
387. 14:41to be in this space who who got the next
388. 14:44call if we just stayed in a
389. 14:45chronological order
390. 14:47well the uh
391. 14:49yeah the uh I actually heard the call
392. 14:52over the radio when it came out and I
393. 14:55knew that I was going to be getting a
394. 14:57phone call and I literally was
395. 15:00you know putting my gear on and walking
396. 15:01to the door and the phone rang and it
397. 15:03was dispatch
398. 15:04and I told him I heard the call I'm
399. 15:07getting in the car right now
400. 15:08and after I got in the vehicle and began
401. 15:12heading to the call the sheriff called
402. 15:15and he asked me if I knew who the caller
403. 15:18was
404. 15:19and I you know I said no boss I haven't
405. 15:22all all that was given to me was same
406. 15:24information it was over the radio
407. 15:26and he said dispatch says it's Alex
408. 15:29Murdock
409. 15:31and the sheriff and I where we live
410. 15:34put us closer to the scene than the rest
411. 15:37of the detectives and administration
412. 15:40so
413. 15:42I by then I had heard Daniel and his
414. 15:45team going on scene and confirming you
415. 15:47know two fatalities
416. 15:49so we went ahead and did a an all call
417. 15:51and that would have been when uh you
418. 15:54know Laura got the call
419. 15:55and I wasn't that far from the scene I
420. 15:58believe I was only
421. 16:00six minutes I think six or seven minutes
422. 16:03behind Daniel's team when they arrived
423. 16:06and um
424. 16:09you know they did the necessary stuff
425. 16:12making sure that there wasn't a bad guy
426. 16:15on scene wielding a gun hiding in the
427. 16:18bushes securing the crime scene
428. 16:21um you know Evac and anybody that wasn't
429. 16:23absolutely necessary inside the crime
430. 16:26scene out
431. 16:27to preserve evidence so that when we
432. 16:30finally got there we could start doing
433. 16:31what we were going to do
434. 16:33but I wasn't I believe I got there at um
435. 16:37right after 10 30.
436. 16:40and
437. 16:41the sheriff and I arrived about the same
438. 16:43time and
439. 16:48well initially I do know Alec I don't uh
440. 16:51we're not I mean we're not really close
441. 16:53but I know the family I've been here my
442. 16:54whole life
443. 16:56so I was aware of some of the other
444. 16:59factors that were going on at the time
445. 17:01the you know the boat case and stuff I
446. 17:03it was not my fault in route to the call
447. 17:06that Alec had done anything to his wife
448. 17:09or his son
449. 17:10so I Was preparing myself for some type
450. 17:13of scenario where someone had come there
451. 17:15and done something that that's what I
452. 17:18really was anticipating when I got there
453. 17:20and you know I pulled in and
454. 17:23parked uh met with the sheriff real
455. 17:26quick and did a quick walk through and
456. 17:28basically walked right straight through
457. 17:30the scene over to uh to Daniel
458. 17:33and spoke to Daniel and spoke to Alec
459. 17:35and just kind of absorbing what I was
460. 17:38seeing on the way through
461. 17:40and making some quick determinations you
462. 17:43know we knew that we had a weather front
463. 17:44coming in
464. 17:45um were where we were is
465. 17:48far away from town so anything that
466. 17:51you're going to need you need to go get
467. 17:52now
468. 17:53so you know I knew that
469. 17:56Laura had the longest drive and is
470. 17:59probably one of the best as far as
471. 18:01putting stuff on paper making it sound
472. 18:03good so you know she was routed to the
473. 18:05office for search warrant because we
474. 18:07knew we were going to have to have a
475. 18:08search warrant
476. 18:09and I've sent other officers to get like
477. 18:12a tent and you know the truck with all
478. 18:14the equipment on it stuff like that but
479. 18:17you know those were those were the
480. 18:18things that were being determined right
481. 18:20up front once we knew that we had a
482. 18:22scene and that it was Secure
483. 18:25and it wasn't until we made those first
484. 18:27determinations and the determination to
485. 18:30call sled that you really started
486. 18:31soaking in what you were seeing as far
487. 18:33as evidence
488. 18:36what were you seeing and what were your
489. 18:38initial thoughts when you got there
490. 18:41so probably
491. 18:47how long was it before you got there
492. 18:49with the warrant
493. 18:51probably 11
494. 18:53[Music]
495. 18:5430 I think I was going to say within
496. 18:57about an hour
497. 18:59and I was the first one I'd go in and
498. 19:01say that was the first one that
499. 19:03that didn't like some of the things that
500. 19:05I saw and I was the first one looking at
501. 19:09Alec as a suspect it wasn't yeah I mean
502. 19:12that wasn't public knowledge you know
503. 19:14it was obviously by this time we have
504. 19:17requested sled and that was not because
505. 19:22of the Murdoch name it was simply
506. 19:24because
507. 19:25he worked for the 14th circuit
508. 19:27solicitor's office and it makes it where
509. 19:29we have
510. 19:30in order for us to be transparent we
511. 19:32have to notify sled so
512. 19:35that call was immediate once we
513. 19:37confirmed it was Alex confirmed it was
514. 19:39his wife and his son then that phone
515. 19:42call was made and of course they get
516. 19:43spun up and they have to drive there so
517. 19:45it's not immediate
518. 19:46and so we begin processing at that time
519. 19:49now we won't remove evidence and we
520. 19:51won't collect it but as far as mapping
521. 19:54it out identifying it marking it
522. 19:57photographing it things like that we'll
523. 19:59we'll go ahead and start processing we
524. 20:01have a great relationship with sled uh
525. 20:04it owns smaller scenes it's not unusual
526. 20:06for them if we actually call them for
527. 20:08them to get here and pretty much
528. 20:09everything's done and then we do it
529. 20:11again with them then we go all the way
530. 20:12through the whole process again and they
531. 20:15physically collect or remove
532. 20:18so that's what we started we started the
533. 20:21identification of evidence or potential
534. 20:23evidence protection of evidence from the
535. 20:24elements
536. 20:26I went ahead and requested that the 911
537. 20:28call be sent to me
538. 20:30and I did speak briefly with Alex
539. 20:33and it was after
540. 20:35an initial look at the evidence the
541. 20:38phone call and the talk to Alex that
542. 20:41bothered me I said almost stand his
543. 20:44demeanor is
544. 20:46there there were red flags everywhere
545. 20:48between his 911 call and his body
546. 20:50language
547. 20:58and sure feel free to tell us like
548. 21:01however I mean well whatever that looks
549. 21:04like you know in your own sort of words
550. 21:07as far as the as far as Maggie and Paul
551. 21:11showcasings things like that at that
552. 21:15time you're not looking at those items
553. 21:17and they're not telling you a story that
554. 21:19Alex did it that's not what we were
555. 21:21looking at
556. 21:22um it's very obvious that both of them
557. 21:24were killed by gunshot
558. 21:26uh or they had gunshot wounds and that
559. 21:28they they died from those gunshot wounds
560. 21:30it was very obvious that there were 300
561. 21:32Blackout casings on the ground
562. 21:34uh very obvious to
563. 21:36um
564. 21:37it appeared to be a shotgun wound to
565. 21:39Paul but we didn't know that for sure
566. 21:43until we got into the room and started
567. 21:44processing later
568. 21:46so those things weren't taken into
569. 21:48account what was taken into account by
570. 21:50Me was
571. 21:53um Alex body language
572. 21:55so it is hard like Daniel mentioned
573. 21:57before if you don't know someone
574. 21:59to determine are they truly emotionally
575. 22:02upset are they truly crying are they
576. 22:04faking but regardless of whether you
577. 22:06know someone or not you can determine a
578. 22:08Baseline and a baseline can be
579. 22:11um it can be the emotion it can be upset
580. 22:13you know Daniel gets there and he's
581. 22:16obviously visibly shaking
582. 22:18that can be his Baseline
583. 22:20but right off the bat and there's a
584. 22:23great example on um
585. 22:25Daniel's body camera of
586. 22:28I mentioned before it's called either
587. 22:30stop sign or red light emotions and what
588. 22:33I mean by that is you can't if you're
589. 22:35truly upset you can't stop it like that
590. 22:38and change direction and he was upset
591. 22:42talking to Daniel and just
592. 22:44doing the crying doing the emotion heavy
593. 22:47breathing and he stops and he says how
594. 22:50are you doing sir
595. 22:52you can't do that
596. 22:55um that one thing is not it that's you
597. 22:57know everybody says oh was that it's a
598. 22:59whole conglomerate of things but that
599. 23:01was one of the first ones that I saw as
600. 23:03soon as I walked up he spoke to me and
601. 23:04it
602. 23:05so I thought maybe he's just upset it is
603. 23:08his wife it is his child
604. 23:11it's the other things when you take into
605. 23:13account he won't look at you when he's
606. 23:15talking to you
607. 23:16Again by itself doesn't mean anything
608. 23:19but usually when somebody fixates their
609. 23:21eyes
610. 23:22and they answer questions
611. 23:26it's more of a recap of what they're
612. 23:29remembering
613. 23:30usually someone that's come up on a
614. 23:33scene like that and there you ask a
615. 23:35question what did you see when you got
616. 23:37here as they taught their eyes are
617. 23:39bouncing all over because they're
618. 23:41they're looking for Clues they're
619. 23:43accessing what they saw
620. 23:46when they first walked up I saw
621. 23:49I saw my wife Maggie or I saw I saw Paul
622. 23:51but you noticed when he was answering he
623. 23:54never looked at the person he was
624. 23:55addressing he always stared off into the
625. 23:57direction and he had a really really low
626. 23:59blink rate
627. 24:01um
628. 24:02typically someone who's in a high stress
629. 24:04situation their eyes are blinking a lot
630. 24:07and it was
631. 24:09it was weird to watch because he didn't
632. 24:11blink
633. 24:13um
634. 24:14so then we brought up the 911 call
635. 24:16and one of the things he says on the 911
636. 24:20call was that he had come to the
637. 24:22residence and he had found his wife and
638. 24:25his son dead and the dispatcher is just
639. 24:27at that point Tom getting information
640. 24:28doesn't slow the response they're just
641. 24:32Gathering more or gathering more feeding
642. 24:34that to patrol that's on the way and
643. 24:36also keeping the caller busy so that
644. 24:38they're not getting upset
645. 24:40are any more upset and she asked about
646. 24:43guns do you see any guns and he says no
647. 24:46I don't see any
648. 24:47and she says another question about
649. 24:51the Firearms more or less hitting it
650. 24:54maybe a
651. 24:55suicide a murder suicide and he got real
652. 25:00Snappy there for a second and said well
653. 25:02they didn't it's not a suicide if that's
654. 25:04what you're asking
655. 25:07um but how did he know that I mean how
656. 25:11did he know there wasn't a gun under
657. 25:12Paul how did he know that Paul didn't
658. 25:14shoot Maggie or Maggie didn't shoot Paul
659. 25:16and then kill themselves but everything
660. 25:18was unknown to him but that was an
661. 25:20immediate angry response and I won't say
662. 25:23angry it was immediate response back
663. 25:26um
664. 25:28so that was a little bit of a red flag
665. 25:31the way he answered that but the biggest
666. 25:33one was walking up to him after
667. 25:36dispatchers told us
668. 25:38after the 911 call says it
669. 25:41and out of his own mouth he tells me
670. 25:44that he physically went over and he
671. 25:46checked both of them
672. 25:49and he's got on a pristine white T-shirt
673. 25:52he's got on a pair of shorts a pair of
674. 25:55shoes he has no blood anywhere and
675. 25:59I have never been to a scene where our
676. 26:02parents found a child or spouse has
677. 26:04found their wife or their husband
678. 26:07and they didn't go and
679. 26:10try to save them you know you can
680. 26:12imagine first pulling up and not knowing
681. 26:14what's going on and for him not to have
682. 26:16one Speck of blood it was a meat that
683. 26:19was probably my biggest thing
684. 26:21that that was it you know and you know
685. 26:24Laurel talked more about it in a minute
686. 26:26but not just
687. 26:28not on his shirt but not on his fingers
688. 26:31not on the soles of his light-colored
689. 26:34shoes
690. 26:36um you asked Daniel was there blood and
691. 26:39water all around Paul if saturated
692. 26:42everywhere
693. 26:43um but no blood
694. 26:46and and then he says when I went to
695. 26:49check
696. 26:51um Paul I got his phone out of his
697. 26:53pocket and I was going to check it for
698. 26:56Ev and he stopped
699. 26:58and he didn't finish the sentence and
700. 27:00then he said and then I realized I
701. 27:01shouldn't do that
702. 27:03and I put it down on his uh backside
703. 27:06and that's what he told me and then you
704. 27:08know Laurel go into a little more detail
705. 27:10of what was actually said in the
706. 27:11interview which is close to that but
707. 27:14um his responses were just they weren't
708. 27:17of someone in distress
709. 27:19his and I could talk all day about his
710. 27:22his body language but just the body
711. 27:25language alone
712. 27:27and the no blood the absolute no blood
713. 27:31uh I'm not saying that he did it but I
714. 27:34did I readily told everybody that when
715. 27:36we had our meeting before we went into
716. 27:37process that we don't need to Discount
717. 27:40him there's something whether he did it
718. 27:42himself or whether he stood here and
719. 27:44watched or whether he paid somebody to
720. 27:46do it or what he was he was part of it
721. 27:49somehow
722. 27:50and so that was
723. 27:52that was where it started with me
724. 27:56it doesn't it's just there's things that
725. 27:58we do innately
726. 28:01is it like that fight or flight thing
727. 28:03what do they teach you about that when
728. 28:05you were like while you're sort of
729. 28:07watching Alec talk to you this is going
730. 28:10all of your training is coming back
731. 28:12isn't it and a lot of the stuff I
732. 28:13mentioned to you are things that we are
733. 28:15taught through interview classes but
734. 28:18um a lot of it's like we discussed
735. 28:20earlier it's years and years and years
736. 28:22of reading people and a detective will
737. 28:26tell you A lot of times it doesn't
738. 28:27matter what actually comes out of your
739. 28:29mouth in the interview room it's what
740. 28:31your body says because we can have
741. 28:33someone come in and sit down and say the
742. 28:36typical I swear I didn't do it I swear I
743. 28:38didn't do it
744. 28:39but their body says everything opposite
745. 28:42and I'll give you a great example you
746. 28:45know when when Alex was looking in the
747. 28:49eyes of the jurors
748. 28:50and he said
749. 28:52I would never hurt my wife mag or my son
750. 28:55Paul Paul what was he doing
751. 28:58he was shaking his head up and down
752. 29:01that's not the response that you would
753. 29:04expect from someone who's actually
754. 29:06seemingly didn't do it
755. 29:08subconsciously he's reacting differently
756. 29:11that I mean you go back and look at your
757. 29:13own footage I mean obviously the whole
758. 29:15nation saw it but making that statement
759. 29:17while shaking his head yes
760. 29:20is is an indicator so they were there
761. 29:23was a ton of them there and just one and
762. 29:26I said it on the stand just one of those
763. 29:28indicators is not an indication of
764. 29:31somebody lying but all of them that were
765. 29:34there they painted a very very clear
766. 29:36picture for me just from
767. 29:39spending 26 years of looking at people
768. 29:42and interviewing people that's that's
769. 29:43where that came from some of this you'll
770. 29:46be able to go back and find on video a
771. 29:49great example will be David Owens and uh
772. 29:51Laura Rutland interviewed that first
773. 29:53interview
774. 29:54um in the vehicle you can watch as he's
775. 29:57talking to them he's staring straight
776. 29:59out the front window the camera is
777. 30:01mounted over to his left and as they're
778. 30:04asking him questions he's doing that
779. 30:06stair that I was telling you it's it's
780. 30:08it's a re in other words as long as he
781. 30:10is inside that story that he's
782. 30:12practicing his head he's sitting there
783. 30:14staring out the window or straight ahead
784. 30:17eyes fixed not blinking the minute
785. 30:20someone asked him a question Laura asked
786. 30:22him a question from the back seat that
787. 30:24wasn't part of the routine
788. 30:26his his body language completely changes
789. 30:29his tone changed
790. 30:32um he he turned the best example is in
791. 30:35the uh the second interview
792. 30:38um when they're in the car
793. 30:41and he's recapping again and he stops
794. 30:45for the first time and turns and looks
795. 30:48at agent Owens
796. 30:50and says so y'all have any good leads
797. 30:53I think that was that you know do you
798. 30:55all have any any good good leads that
799. 30:58was the first time he had ever turned
800. 31:00and made eye contact during the
801. 31:02interview because why
802. 31:05he wanted something from them he wasn't
803. 31:07recalling what he had done or what he
804. 31:09remembered he was he was actually
805. 31:11looking at them for information
806. 31:14and then the last thing that was the
807. 31:17nail in the coffin for me on scene was
808. 31:19that he never got angry
809. 31:21and people say well why would that make
810. 31:22you upset
811. 31:24but
812. 31:25they always do if we don't take it to
813. 31:27heart we don't get offended but
814. 31:30if we had been out there and it was
815. 31:32legitimate at some point in time he
816. 31:35should have reached a peak moment where
817. 31:39he said why do y'all keep asking me the
818. 31:41same questions why are you not out there
819. 31:43trying to find the killers why are you
820. 31:46sitting here taking pictures of dirt why
821. 31:49are you doing this why aren't you doing
822. 31:51your job
823. 31:53um never never not even up until he got
824. 31:56convicted he never ever ever showed that
825. 32:00anger and that everyone does they always
826. 32:03do they don't mean it but it's
827. 32:06you know it's their true feelings coming
828. 32:09out of why are we wasting why are we
829. 32:11wasting time here why are you asking the
830. 32:13same questions over and over and over
831. 32:14again never once no I mean no everything
832. 32:18was yes sir
833. 32:19yeah John Meadows did an excellent job
834. 32:22in the closing of pointing that out to
835. 32:24the jury in in his closing his rebuttal
836. 32:27he he pointed out how Alec never said
837. 32:30call Buster call someone call my son
838. 32:32someone's out there someone go check on
839. 32:35my mom and Almeda I just left her she's
840. 32:37there by herself there was none of that
841. 32:38Panic that night none of it and Laura
842. 32:42you were obviously in the car for the
843. 32:44first interview
844. 32:46um what was going through your mind had
845. 32:48you heard about the family
846. 32:50um you know we saw you like I think
847. 32:52comfort him at one point or was that
848. 32:54just at the end you like when you were
849. 32:55saying yeah I think no it was um he had
850. 32:58broken down
851. 32:59um at the very beginning
852. 33:01um trying to describe Paul when he came
853. 33:03upon his body and what he had seen he
854. 33:05started to break down as he was
855. 33:06describing how you know horrific it was
856. 33:09and human nature I I reached I reached
857. 33:12for his shoulder
858. 33:13um but when I got to the scene
859. 33:16um I was basically briefed about who it
860. 33:19was and I didn't know the Murdoch family
861. 33:22so I was assigned to assist David Owen
862. 33:26the sled
863. 33:27and pretty much right away because I got
864. 33:31there so late because I had to get the
865. 33:32search warrant we listened to the 911
866. 33:34call
867. 33:35and it was hard to hear because it was
868. 33:37from a cell phone but we listened to it
869. 33:40and we walked through and lifted up the
870. 33:43blankets they were lifted up and we
871. 33:45looked on at the bodies
872. 33:47um but initially we didn't really know
873. 33:49what we had you know was this a murder
874. 33:51suicide were they ambushed were you know
875. 33:53it could have been any scenario so we
876. 33:56went to Alec and agent Owen explained we
877. 33:59need to speak with you and he was with
878. 34:01his attorneys and he said that's totally
879. 34:03fine I understand
880. 34:04and so in the car
881. 34:07we were asking very generalized
882. 34:10questions
883. 34:11um because for all I knew there could
884. 34:12have been a gun underneath Paul's body
885. 34:14at that point so you know when he was
886. 34:16describing Paul and breaking down I
887. 34:18initially thought this was genuine
888. 34:20emotion and genuine genuine trauma of
889. 34:23course now I know yeah he was
890. 34:25traumatized but not by what he had found
891. 34:27he was traumatized of what he had done
892. 34:29that's the advantage of being able to
893. 34:31look back and watch the body Cam and
894. 34:33spend hours watching it over and over
895. 34:35and over again and you pick up on those
896. 34:37cues and so for me it was probably the
897. 34:40next few days before I was like really
898. 34:42narrowing in on on Alec um
899. 34:44but as far as his interview went he was
900. 34:47all over the place he he would cry then
901. 34:49he would stop crying he was coughing he
902. 34:52was clearing his throat a lot which he
903. 34:53tended to do and then a lie would follow
904. 34:56that seemed to be the pattern
905. 34:58but he told us a story about Paul being
906. 35:01bullied a lot but couldn't give any
907. 35:03specific examples
908. 35:05he mentioned going to see his mother in
909. 35:07Alameda at 9 30 at night and she's got
910. 35:09Alzheimer's well everyone's heard of
911. 35:11Sundowners with Alzheimer's they don't
912. 35:13do well at night so I found that that
913. 35:15was unusual
914. 35:17as well as his wild story about the
915. 35:20groundskeeper and you know he used to
916. 35:23kill black panther radicals I mean he
917. 35:26was just all over the place
918. 35:28um considering this was supposed to be
919. 35:30somebody who had just found his wife and
920. 35:32son brutally murdered so a lot of his
921. 35:34story that night just did not make sense
922. 35:38you had a lot of people show up I mean
923. 35:40it wasn't like your you had the brothers
924. 35:42come
925. 35:43home he got off the 911
926. 35:47no and that was one thing that I was
927. 35:49going to mention and we kind of shifted
928. 35:51that the last part of the
929. 35:54911 called it was odd was that he tells
930. 35:57dispatch
931. 35:58I'm going to go to my house and get a
932. 36:00gun
933. 36:01it's only a hundred yards away
934. 36:04um man of course the house is
935. 36:07a thousand feet away not 100 yards but
936. 36:10that wasn't the issue
937. 36:12let's say that he is nervous I've just
938. 36:15come up there you know they're both dead
939. 36:17they're at the dog kennels it's dark I
940. 36:19don't know who's out here I'm gonna go
941. 36:20get a gun
942. 36:21and he goes to his house and he gets the
943. 36:24gun and he comes back and as soon as he
944. 36:26gets back
945. 36:27he disconnects with dispatch to call
946. 36:30family so if if you're frightened enough
947. 36:33that you have to go to the house and get
948. 36:36it going
949. 36:37why would you sever your contact with
950. 36:40dispatch your lifeline
951. 36:42that was
952. 36:44really really really odd you know I'm
953. 36:46going to go to the house and get a gun
954. 36:47because I don't know who's out here
955. 36:48pulls back up says I'm going to make
956. 36:50some phone calls and he disconnects with
957. 36:529-1-1
958. 36:54so that was the the last flag that we
959. 36:56were talking about on that 911 call you
960. 36:59know that gets your wheels spinning
961. 37:01about
962. 37:02why does he have to have the gun now was
963. 37:05it was he taking something there was he
964. 37:08bringing something back was it just to
965. 37:09get a gun in his hand so that he could
966. 37:11excuse having GSR
967. 37:13you know what was going on there but
968. 37:15that's really weird to to panic enough
969. 37:18to have to leave and get a gun but then
970. 37:21as soon as you pull back up
971. 37:23say okay well I'm gonna make some phone
972. 37:25calls so yeah
973. 37:28um I forgot I randomly just thought he
974. 37:30said that he had pills in his pocket and
975. 37:32stirring that first interview and when
976. 37:35Daniel walked up yeah he says he's like
977. 37:37yeah like a drug addict or whatever 50k
978. 37:41a day on pills
979. 37:45um did you guys think he was acting like
980. 37:49a drug addict or someone not at all
981. 37:52no not at all
982. 37:56so when I first got there I mean one of
983. 37:58the first things you see me do is check
984. 37:59him just to make sure he doesn't have
985. 38:01any weapons I mean that's something we
986. 38:02do anytime we come on to a scene like
987. 38:03that he's the only one here I've got two
988. 38:06people that clearly suffer gunshot
989. 38:08wounds first I want to make sure that
990. 38:10I'm aware of any and all weapons that
991. 38:12are out there so you know you told me
992. 38:13the shotgun's Leaning up against this
993. 38:15car I'm just going to check him to make
994. 38:17sure I don't see any weapon you know I'm
995. 38:18not sticking my hands in his pockets to
996. 38:19see what all he's got in there I'm not
997. 38:20doing a full search just doing a quick
998. 38:22pat down making sure he doesn't have any
999. 38:25weapons that I'm not aware of