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FULL INTERVIEW-Nachum Segal speaks w/ Jonathan Pollard (DEC 2023) — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:11Thursday morning broadcast from
0:14Jerusalem my name is n seagull and this
0:17is America's one and only Jewish moments
0:20in the morning radio program heard on
0:22listeners sponsored Digital radio around
0:24the world web at al.com on the aligle
0:26network and of course on the Beloved NSN
0:29app we're here in Jerusalem and our
0:30temporary Studio at the Inbal hotel and
0:32we are honored to welcome Jonathan Pard
0:36into this studio and uh it's the first
0:38time we've ever spoken with him and
0:40we're very honored that he has agreed to
0:43this what I hope will be a fulllength
0:44interview and a conversation no doubt
0:46about current events and some of the
0:48other events of the last 30 plus years a
0:53pleasure to welcome you to J likewise
0:56thank you so much thank you mazeltov on
1:00your third anniversary of living in the
1:03city of Jerusalem am I right it was just
1:05a few weeks ago was the third
1:06anniversary it's the third and it's also
1:08a little over the first anniversary of
1:10my my marriage M of so to Rifka right so
1:15and um I would also say mazal to on the
1:19eth
1:20anniversary of you being
1:22paroled and I don't know how you looked
1:24at that cuz I know you probably wanted
1:25to go directly to Israel and not spend
1:27time in the United States but it was a
1:29significant event you'd have to agree it
1:30was it was a significant event but it
1:32was leaving a conventional prison with
1:35walls and razor wire to go to an
1:38unconventional type of living with uh
1:42Geographic restrictions and the GPS and
1:45all that what was not funny but it was
1:48ironic was all of my friends were
1:51complaining bitterly when we had the
1:53lockdown and I said well welcome to my
1:57world I said it's not a problem for me
2:00me um bars on the window looked
2:03familiar uh had to be in a small space
2:06felt familiar you know of course the
2:08major difference was I had my wife with
2:10me which made all the difference so yeah
2:14it was
2:16um it was disappointing because freedom
2:19is freedom but restrictions does not
2:21equal Freedom yeah it was actually
2:23scarier for me in New York than it was
2:26in prison because in prison I kind of
2:29knew
2:30everybody I knew who to be afraid from
2:33who to avoid I could carry a
2:35weapon um but you could carry a weapon
2:38meaning a knife actually two knives and
2:41you mean that in a legal sense you were
2:43able to in an illegal sense everybody
2:45did the only way to protect themselves
2:47it was the only way to protect yourself
2:49so in New York um I couldn't have
2:54anything not even a gas gun there was
2:56one incident that happened that was very
2:58troubling and uh a guy in Manhattan on
3:02uh Third Avenue and a guy just stepped
3:05out of the shadows and confronted me and
3:09threatening me to kill me I looked at
3:11him and oh crew cut squared away
3:15military wow and and you were alone well
3:18no Esther was with me and I looked back
3:21at her for a second and there was a guy
3:23behind us so I told her get get get
3:26behind me close and keep your eye on the
3:29guy behind this so uh I realized you
3:33know I had to get a little aggressive
3:36and in prison what you do is you look at
3:38somebody's hands you don't look at their
3:41face and you don't listen to what
3:43they're saying you watch their hands
3:44their hands show us their intent with
3:46their intent and so his hands were still
3:49down out so I just started pushing him
3:54hard and he didn't expect that and I
3:58don't think he knew what to do at that
4:00point and he was threatening to kill me
4:03and kill my wife and you know it was
4:05very
4:06uncomfortable but uh I saw some
4:09cops and I went for them and he
4:12disappeared he and his friend
4:14disappeared so um there was I'm not
4:16going to mention his name but there was
4:18a nice Jewish captain that showed up
4:21from the local Precinct and uh well it
4:24was a hate crime because uh bias crime
4:27he was saying some really uh
4:30anti-semitic things to me it was clear
4:32that he was trying to get me to provoke
4:35me to do something so he'd have reason
4:39to reason but more importantly if I were
4:43involved in any physical altercation I
4:46go straight back to finish um 15 more
4:49years day for day essentially a
4:52violation of your parole correct so what
4:55happened was they eventually looked at
4:58all the cameras from the banks in that
5:02area and they were all
5:04blank for that time
5:07frame and shockingly enough and I went
5:10into the precinct and he was sitting
5:12there and he said uh you're not going to
5:13believe this I said they're all blank he
5:17said uh yeah every one of
5:19them so uh Ron
5:23durmer um made a formal complaint to the
5:26state department over what happened it
5:28was clear
5:30that it was a uh
5:32authorized uh setup it was a provocation
5:35and he said Point Blank if it happens
5:37again you know they'll there going to be
5:39diplomatic consequences and luckily um
5:44it didn't happen again it was it was
5:46okay so we hear how you survived in New
5:48York City how did you survive in prison
5:51especially at the very beginning the
5:52first few years when you're just
5:54learning it sounds like who to avoid how
5:57to operate the modus upper run in
5:59general I would imagine that in those in
6:02the early part it must have been
6:05frightening not having that information
6:07yet first of all there's
6:10um I have an ability to
6:14switch your my mindset depending on my
6:18environment
6:19luckily so my first uh seven years were
6:24um 150 M
6:27underground um isolation
6:30all the entire seven years isolation
6:31yeah the entire time and it was uh
6:34pretty
6:35tough um being by yourself you would
6:38think it would be easier than with a
6:41bunch of murderers and but but it's the
6:43most dangerous time to be with because
6:46you have seemingly no hope so when I
6:50came there um the warden came out and
6:53said look at the sky look at the grass
6:55breathe the air the next time you come
6:57up you'll be an old old man in a body
7:01bag so if you don't talk this was like
7:05for people that didn't
7:07talk and um I said well God runs the
7:12world we'll you know and he said well
7:14we'll
7:15see okay so I had to become reacquainted
7:21with Hashem down there I was off the D
7:24before then for various reasons and I
7:28realized that I couldn't uh do this
7:30myself I needed help if I were going to
7:34keep my mouth shut and I certainly
7:36wasn't going to commit they suggested if
7:38you don't want to talk you can use the
7:41bar over the door just hang yourself you
7:44know you leave easily and I tried to
7:47explain to them that Jews don't commit
7:50suicide we uh buy retail instead that's
7:54what we're known for that's what we're
7:55known for but uh the joke was lost on
7:59him him really yeah completely lost on
8:02him okay so I had a discussion with
8:07AES kind of like uh a ainu with Hashem
8:11negotiating for
8:14sidon and uh I negotiated with
8:19him um and I said if I do these five
8:22things and I don't do these five things
8:26uh save
8:27me and he did
8:30and uh seven years later I came up
8:34literally into the light everybody else
8:35had committed suicide and seven years is
8:38significant in Jewish yes it is quite
8:42quite so one of the first things I asked
8:46was what year is it seriously yeah so I
8:50came up and uh he was there the same
8:53Warden and sometimes I have a problem
8:56with time and
8:58place this was the wrong time and the
9:00wrong place to finally open my mouth but
9:03I had to and I said to him I mean I'm
9:07all trusted up like a Thanksgiving
9:10turkey and I just looked up at this
9:12monster of a guy and I said you see I
9:15told you God runs the world and I lost a
9:19tooth and he knocked me out but it was
9:21the sweetest pain I ever had I really
9:24got him mad and uh he charged me with
9:28incitement to
9:30Riot and this was kind of funny because
9:33every Warden I've ever come across and
9:36there were many called me in and said
9:39how how could you have incited a riot
9:42you were outside under how many guns
9:45they didn't know trust up um there
9:49wasn't any inmate around they just
9:51eventually tore it up I mean they said
9:54this is
9:55ridiculous that was the only uh shot I
9:58ever got in 30 years that was the only
10:01infraction I got and
10:05um it was difficult when I went to the
10:08next prison because there were a lot of
10:10people who were getting killed there is
10:12this already Butner we're talking about
10:13Butner yeah North Carolina North
10:15Carolina yeah I mean everybody thinks
10:18the feds you know are Club fed well it's
10:22not that way I don't care what prison
10:24you go to it's dangerous even a camp
10:28right can be very very very dangerous uh
10:30because you don't know who and what
10:33you're dealing with so a major problem I
10:36had there was um
10:39Kos how do I I couldn't get kosher food
10:42they didn't have kosher food for me and
10:45the commissary was expensive I didn't
10:48have very much money I was
10:51working and um I had to scramble and
10:54there were many times I didn't have
10:56anything to eat and I was actually
10:59thankful that I didn't have anything to
11:02eat why because this is um the surus you
11:07go through to maintain your Yiddish kite
11:11and I was I was very happy to do that I
11:14was very happy so okay
11:19eventually 15 years
11:22later from your entrance into the Butner
11:24yeah I'm still there and uh they get
11:26meal Mart common fair and the problem
11:30with that was that the uh individuals in
11:34the kitchen were opening up the packages
11:37and taking the chicken or the meat or
11:39the fish out and then retaping it I
11:42can't eat it it's trafe at that
11:44point so I just kept scrounging for food
11:50and um it was okay you know I'll K it's
11:53fine do you
11:55remember where one of the things about
11:58you that we've been uh told that we read
12:02about is that you have a phenomenal
12:03memory that's what people say about okay
12:06I have I have I have to quickly say
12:09something um a congressional friend of
12:12mine whom I will not mention came under
12:15a
12:16little appr probium for his scandalous
12:20behavior um from New
12:23York we might know who you mean um he
12:26was a sadik
12:30with
12:31me I can't tell you how much he did for
12:36me for no gain at all because it was the
12:39right thing to do and a lot of people
12:43you know may not like me saying
12:46this but good and bad can
12:50coexist sometimes in the same
12:53people and um to the extent they're bad
12:57they can also also so be good some would
13:00say in every person frankly that there's
13:02well to an not in this right this
13:04extreme right yeah this is a bit extreme
13:07right
13:08um but in this case he was very
13:12helpful uh and successful in
13:17getting a document that basically the
13:20government
13:21admitted that uh they knew I didn't have
13:24a photographic
13:26mind that was one of their concerns
13:28originally was that you had a
13:29photographic mind and therefore there's
13:31no eliminating the information and there
13:33it is in black and white that you don't
13:35have that that they knew right that they
13:38knew second of all that they knew that I
13:40was I didn't even know government makes
13:42an evaluation like that yeah well and
13:44that the second important thing was that
13:46they knew that I was not in the same
13:49category as the Soviet spies and so when
13:52the question was asked why did you make
13:55this and they said well we wanted to
13:57make sure we put them away
13:59part of the problem was that we didn't
14:02know at the time what they were that Al
14:05James and Robert Hansen right had
14:08accused me of being responsible for all
14:11the deaths of the CIA and MI6 agents
14:16that had were ongoing in uh the uh
14:20Soviet Union so Robert um John lus came
14:24to see me and he asked me he said
14:26amazing when you were in court
14:29and the judge asked you um did you have
14:32any regret for all the deaths you caused
14:36where was your
14:37head I said
14:40Tunis well I was the intelligence
14:43officer that put together the air strike
14:45the Israeli air strike to kill
14:47Arafat and we missed him this was in
14:50retaliation for a brutal uh terrorist
14:54attack in Ln right to Israeli civilians
14:57so the planes went overhead demolished
15:01his headquarters killed about 90 of his
15:03417 people who had carried out the
15:07terrorist attack we missed him so I I
15:10answered the judge I said yes I have
15:12remorse and he looked at me I said that
15:16we didn't get one
15:17more so John asked me you know your head
15:22was in tun this I said where what where
15:24else would it be he said the basement of
15:27the Le foro prison in Moscow I said what
15:30am I doing there he said uh Ames had
15:34just described to the judge
15:36exte in his
15:38Chambers what happened to General
15:41tchikov AKA his code name was tricycle
15:44fed feet first into the furnace in the
15:47basement of Le foro in front of his
15:50family and he said now you're telling
15:52the judge you just wish there was one
15:55more I said what did I have to do with
15:57the Soviet Union I don't I I didn't have
16:00anything to do he said well Ames wrapped
16:03you up pretty carefully in that right
16:06can I just tell you that as all this is
16:07going on the public that was concerned
16:09about you one of the arguments that we
16:11always made was that your sentence was
16:13so much harsher than other International
16:16spies or those accused of being
16:18International spies but now as you give
16:20us this perspective we there's one more
16:22perspective on that um just to finish
16:26this John asked me did you notice how
16:29much security was in the courtroom I
16:32said it was amazing I never saw so many
16:35heavily armed Marshals before he said
16:38well there was a reason for that um
16:40there were many operations director
16:43field Agents from the CIA that were
16:47volunteering to come in and kill you in
16:48the
16:49courtroom but I said I didn't do this
16:52and he said well that's irrelevant and
16:54when they finally found out uh senator
16:57deini who was the then chairman of the
17:02Senate intelligence committee had a
17:03bipartisan letter that he submitted to
17:06Clinton saying you you got the wrong guy
17:10let him go well as it was explained to
17:14him I was valuable as a bargaining ship
17:17right for Clinton right that was that
17:20whole issue with the Russians was one
17:23thing or the
17:25Soviets John said Point Blank I didn't
17:29have What's called the Red Stripe
17:30clearance or blue stripe clearances to
17:33get into the lists of
17:35agents and if you want to hear irony of
17:37irony the first time I met
17:40rafian not the chief of staff but my
17:43control officer in Paris he asked me for
17:47a list of all the American agents in
17:50Israel and I said no thank God I said no
17:55that's not what this operation is about
17:59so he said ' I'm telling you one of them
18:01is going to kill you I said so be it but
18:04I'm not going to compromise an American
18:06agent and thank God I didn't granted one
18:11of them fin a CIA plant in the canet
18:14Foreign Affairs and defense committee uh
18:17outed
18:18me I found out because he took the CIA
18:21to court in New York for inadequate
18:24retirement he was responsible for
18:27catching the notorious spy he didn't
18:29like his retirement package somebody who
18:31was planted in the Israeli Kessa
18:33yes kind of raises the issue of
18:36hypocrisy oh okay so that whole Soviet
18:40issue was one matter the other matter
18:43was that I was
18:45unfortunately
18:47um very I was integrally involved with
18:51Iran
18:52Contra from the Israeli side I opened up
18:57most of the bank account accounts in
19:00Switzerland
19:02um they needed a fresh face that no one
19:06would know it's it was a softare bank
19:08that was used by all of the intelligence
19:10agencies so they put me out in the open
19:13I mean it was insane to open up these
19:16accounts for both Israelis and
19:19Americans This is where this whole issue
19:22of my Swiss bank account
19:25came I didn't have the Swiss bank I
19:27opened it up and eventually the tax
19:31Court after I was sentenced to life
19:34brought this issue
19:36up and they all wanted to know who I
19:40opened the accounts up for the Americans
19:43especially which Americans did you open
19:47up an account for let me be very clear
19:50about this all of the Americans that I
19:54that they unknowingly worked with me on
19:56this case uh Iran on Contra were
19:59patriots they didn't make any money on
20:02this this wasn't a business deal for
20:03them they were patriots they were
20:05American Patriots and I just didn't feel
20:10that I should compromise them I never
20:12ratted anybody out and I wasn't going to
20:14start doing it there for people that I
20:17actually respected right
20:20so basically they said okay um we know
20:24that this isn't your account because we
20:27have it from the bank you couldn't get
20:28back into the account you could open it
20:31but that was
20:32it I said okay and I said no you tell us
20:36the names or we're going to say this is
20:38your
20:40account and I said no I'm not going to
20:44talk so they said well for the next half
20:47hour before you're reincarceration
20:49you're going to be a very rich
20:51man because the bank account is yours
20:56and I was privileged and honored many
21:00many years later after I got out uh on
21:04parole to meet two of the people that I
21:08basically um had the honor of protecting
21:12and will continue to protect even though
21:14one of them is now dead this this
21:16segment began with me commenting about
21:18your memory and I think I've proven my
21:20point based on your response frankly but
21:22but let me ask you wait wait there's
21:25more there's more behind door number two
21:28second wait um there are all types of
21:33memory a photographic memory I've
21:36learned quite a bit since then no no no
21:37no wait wait wait wait go um people some
21:41people can remember
21:43pictures every aspect of a picture some
21:46people can remember faces maybe not the
21:49names but the faces and there's some
21:52people that can remember precisely what
21:54they read There are all kinds of
21:57photographic memor
21:58memories I remember when they accused me
22:01in court of having a photographic memory
22:04uh I turned to my lawyer and I said in a
22:06very loud voice what is my name and what
22:09am I doing in here it's a joke I mean I
22:12had to joke this is like in court in New
22:16York um the last court case I was in
22:19where the
22:21judge accused me of being the most
22:24dangerous man in America I remember that
22:26quote you remember that I remember that
22:27quote yeah and when I got outside well I
22:31started laughing in court so she said
22:34you know is there something funny do you
22:37want to tell tell me what's so funny I
22:39said nothing that I I I I want to repeat
22:42because I could be held in contempt well
22:44she didn't get it until a few seconds
22:47later I was talking about her yeah it
22:50was too late so when I got outside um
22:53there was a reporter that came up to me
22:55and said you know Jonathan the judge
22:58just characterized you as the most
23:00dangerous man in
23:03America how what's your response so I
23:05looked at my lawyer uh Elliot low was a
23:09great guy and um he said go go ahead
23:14just say what you want so I said look
23:17the only thing I represent a threat to
23:19is a hot pami sandwich that's
23:21all and okay that's again you survive by
23:26a sense of humor oh I get that but I
23:28asked you about your memory cuz I'm
23:29curious if you remember the majority or
23:31would you even argue most or all of the
23:34visits you had in
23:37prison I if I told you a random story
23:40about a visit would would it would it
23:42likely mean something to you or not I
23:43have no idea I don't want to were there
23:45thousands of people who came to see you
23:46hundreds how many no no they were they
23:49were restricted on who could come did
23:51you see 10 a year 100 a year I mean uh
23:54honestly it's it's hard to say maybe you
23:57know Esther came all the
23:59time um Rabbi PESA Lerner who was I
24:04don't know we never would have lived
24:05without him he was our connection to you
24:08frankly he came all the
24:11time um there were some other people
24:14that came routinely to see me I
24:17mentioned this because a friend of mine
24:18went to see you at who actually lives in
24:21one of the quote unquote settler
24:23communities of Israel I don't know if
24:24you remember this visit or not and um
24:28the the people that escorted the
24:30visitors into your room or the room
24:32where you met were generally not
24:33friendly to your visitors right right
24:36that's how it was described to me they
24:37were not people you you couldn't you
24:39couldn't smmo with them on the way in
24:41however this person uh had carried with
24:45him into your visit which was illegal I
24:47don't think anybody was allowed to carry
24:48anything into a visit but he snuck in a
24:51card uh an ID card of his father who
24:54served as a an officer in the United
24:57States Air Force force and he showed
24:59this to the gentleman that escorted him
25:02into the room and they thought it was
25:03him they didn't think it I don't know if
25:04they thought it was him they maybe they
25:06did but they instantly he was able he
25:08claims he was able to start a
25:09conversation with a person because he
25:11had a measure of respect for him well
25:13most of them were ex-military to begin
25:16with meaning those the ones guarding you
25:18Etc yeah most of the guards were he's
25:20able to strike up a conversation and
25:22asks him asks him what is the story here
25:25with with Jonathan like what is the what
25:28is the eventuality what is the from your
25:31point of view what's the assessment and
25:33he said and I could put you in touch
25:35with this gentleman he said to him we
25:37never expected him to live this long we
25:41never expected him to be able to endure
25:44what has been done to him and based on
25:46what you told me about your first seven
25:47years and then the likely you know
25:50unpleasant experience after that you
25:52could understand where he was coming
25:54from there were many instances that I
25:56thought it was
25:58over um when people ask me was it more
26:01dangerous than open population or
26:03isolation I said no isolation was far
26:06with you because you're fighting
26:07yourself in your claustrophobia and your
26:11fear of being buried alive and all of
26:13these things so that was
26:16more uncomfortable for me than it was
26:19being out in the open with a bunch of
26:22murderers um you know yeah I saw a lot
26:25of Very Bad Things I saw a lot of good
26:29things as well in prison um virtuous
26:33things by people you wouldn't expect to
26:37exhibit those kinds of qualities
26:39character qualities how do you know they
26:41don't have an ulterior motive when
26:42they're doing something nice for you or
26:44it wasn't nice to me there was a man in
26:48our unit who was dying of pancreatic
26:50cancer that's very painful and he had
26:54embarrassed the prison system by
26:56breaking out a virtually
26:58every prison they put him in without
27:02harming
27:04anybody so yeah he robbed a bank with
27:06the warden's car and parked the car you
27:09know they arrested the warden they he
27:11was pretty funny guy but he was dying in
27:13great pain they wouldn't give him any
27:15painkillers so one night you know he was
27:19begging for people to kill him just to
27:21put him he didn't have enough strength
27:23to do it so I came and sat down next to
27:26him I held his hand and I said um look
27:30you have to live it's very important
27:33that you live another day and he said
27:36why I said because it's another day to
27:38thank God to bless God and he looked at
27:43me like I was from
27:45Mars and all of a sudden this other guy
27:48who had done almost 40 years in prison
27:51drug charge wouldn't
27:53talk ripped a pain patch off his arm he
27:57was dying of cancer vicadin patch and it
28:01leaves if you rip it off it leaves in a
28:04a blue Mark and that's 5 Years Day for
28:06day and he was getting out in two weeks
28:09to go home to die with the remnants of
28:12his family in his own
28:15house and we all looked at him and he
28:18said I said what did you
28:20do you're going you you're going home
28:24you know by our standards an honest man
28:27you you kept your mouth shut you didn't
28:28cause anybody any any harm he said I
28:32can't after I heard what you said um he
28:35said I'm going to die soon and I have to
28:38have one good thing I can tell God that
28:43I did to make up for this horrible life
28:45alleviating that man's pain correct so
28:48he put the pain patch on and okay within
28:51an hour he was arrested and ratted him
28:53out somebody ratted him out so the next
28:55day almost everybody body on the
28:57compound black white hispanic
29:02Asian was lining up in the um internal
29:07security office to plead for this guy
29:11don't charge him let him go home I'd
29:14never seen anything like that before so
29:16when I came in and sat down the guy
29:19looked at me and said what do you you
29:20don't talk to us what are you doing here
29:22and I explained it and he said you see
29:24that shredded paper on the floor I said
29:27yeah he said that's the charge I can't
29:30in good faith charge this guy with what
29:33he
29:34did he said I've never seen it before so
29:37when he left about two weeks later
29:39everybody came out basically to say
29:43goodbye which if you knew prison Pol
29:45racial politics that doesn't
29:49happen but for this one moment of
29:53decency and
29:56altruism and real
29:58compassion everybody came out so that's
30:02the good thing I don't want to go into
30:04the bad things because I'll let your
30:07imagination take care of that but this
30:10ISS this
30:11incident um is what I like to take away
30:15from my with my prison experience did
30:18you knew that did you know beforehand
30:19that you had the fortitude to survive
30:22those 30 years I I I say that in the
30:24context of today we were discussing off
30:25the air earlier how a lot of people who
30:27are in these very sensitive situations
30:29right now especially here in Israel IDF
30:31soldiers hostage families Etc they are
30:33learning something about themselves that
30:35they probably did not know in advance
30:37did you know going in that you could
30:39that you had What It Takes of course
30:43not no nobody
30:46does um that's why when that door shut
30:50and I'm in a small room 150 meters
30:53underground nothing to read nothing to
30:55write no one to see I mean you're buried
30:58alive and there's only two ways out and
31:01one of which well both of which you
31:02can't
31:04do um that's when you either give into
31:09despair or you reach for a higher power
31:14that's beyond you you know there's an
31:16old statement and I didn't understand it
31:19until I got out of that whole that
31:22boore that um a man who had gone through
31:25it's an apocryphal story but a man who
31:27had gone through terrible
31:29ordeals um had a talk with God he said
31:33that you know sometimes when I was
31:34walking along the beach I only saw my
31:37own
31:39Footprints and God answered him by
31:41saying no that's when I was carrying
31:45you well that's how you felt yeah yeah
31:49what's it like walking in the streets of
31:50Jerusalem today what is that feeling
31:52like what would you how would you
31:53describe it to someone I'm Reborn
31:57reborn in a very Jewish sense in a very
32:00very Jewish sense I mean this is my
32:05reward to be a free person in our own
32:08land were you worried you'd never be
32:10part of that reward or see that reward
32:12or experience that reward did I think I
32:15would
32:16well look at one
32:20point John KY proposed a deal as
32:25Secretary of State we're talking about
32:27what year now I honestly can't remember
32:30but when when he was uh Secretary of
32:34State and what he did was proposed that
32:38um I would be released in exchange for
32:42some horrible terrorists here right by
32:45the way one of dozens of deals that
32:48we've read about in advance of this
32:49conversation and there were dozens and
32:52dozens that were very close and dozens
32:54that a lot of people took credit for
32:56that I don't know if you you would give
32:57them the same I I mean I was packed out
32:59ready to go many times many many times
33:03more than just the Clinton n many many
33:06times the fact the first person that um
33:10secured my
33:12release was um Yak
33:16Rabin everything was arranged after the
33:19uh signing of the Jordanian peace treaty
33:21in the Rose Garden I was to come home he
33:25arranged it
33:27and he was assassinated and when Shimon
33:30Perez as Ros as the Prime Minister came
33:34to Clinton and said you know I would
33:37like Jonathan to come home now Clinton's
33:40answer was that deal was with your
33:43predecessor so I want you to release
33:45four or 500 Palestinian terrorist so he
33:48was still willing to do it but bu the
33:51buses were blowing up in and perz said I
33:55can't do that that's impossible and
33:57Clinton said that's the deal this is
33:58mid90s you're a victim of circumstance
34:01of what's going on here in Israel at
34:02that time and um okay so so Carrie you
34:06were saying pardon Carri you were
34:08talking about the car yeah see my memory
34:10Carrie I overestimated you I apolog
34:13thank you what Bo what am I doing
34:18here um and but that was stockdale's
34:21quote by the way Admiral Stockdale was
34:24the one with oh that was horrible during
34:25that vice president
34:28they let you watch am I and what am I
34:29doing here they let you watch what
34:31happens is you go to the officer and you
34:33want to talk to him about something and
34:34you keep looking at the TV there tricks
34:37you learn about things like this all
34:39right so go ahead so
34:43um the the catch was I would never be
34:47allowed to go home youd stay in the
34:49United States even if I'm I died the
34:52body has to stay in uh the US the US so
34:56BB
34:58in the cabinet meeting put it to Esther
35:00alom um you have to bring this deal to
35:04Jonathan and whatever he agrees with
35:07okay we'll we'll abide by well some
35:10people might say that it's unethical to
35:13bring an offer like that to a man in my
35:15position at the time who had no hope at
35:18all of getting out okay but BB knew me
35:23well enough it wasn't a risk he was safe
35:27all right so Esther came
35:31Alam and she described this whole
35:33situation to me and she said before you
35:36answer I want you to know something that
35:40whether you decide to stay in prison
35:43here or take the deal and come out never
35:47to return to
35:50Isel I will stay with you in the
35:54midar that's why that quote from talim I
35:58put over her grave I knew you in your
36:01youth when you were in the
36:05midbar so I looked at her and I said um
36:08okay I'll give you my answer no on the
36:11spot you said no she said look I need a
36:13little bit longer answer I'm I have to
36:16more explanation I have to brief the
36:18cabinet so I said okay hell no that was
36:22your uh the long version yeah so she
36:26said look you're supposedly an educated
36:29person give me an educated answer that
36:32doesn't make me look like an idiot when
36:34I go back so I said okay there are three
36:36reasons why I can't accept this one it
36:39devalues the lives of the
36:42victims second of all it lowers
36:45deterence
36:47because they look at what's happening
36:49Nows lower the ter right the third
36:52reason is it would cause immeasurable
36:55pain to the victim's family amilies that
36:57I didn't have the strength to just honor
37:01their
37:03corbane so I said for those three
37:05reasons I C I have to say no so she
37:07looked at me and she said that's a very
37:10good answer but it's not the Jewish
37:14answer she was my Mo Esther So I
37:17listened she studied with Rob Emanuel
37:19in
37:21Canada um most rabbis I know who knew
37:25her said that if uh rabant was ever open
37:28the Orthodox rabet was ever open to
37:30women she would probably be the first
37:32one given SM so I said okay what's the
37:37Jewish
37:38answer and she said as Jews we live
37:43for Al those are our
37:47three principles that we organize our
37:50life around as nationalist Jews Al is a
37:55little different but these are as a
37:56nationalist Jew this is what we live for
38:00and she said if you decided to stay in
38:04the
38:05midbar you would be making the same
38:07mistake that the meraglim made when they
38:10cursed the land in order to maintain
38:12their C in the midbar and she said we've
38:16been paying for that ever
38:18since so she said when you go before
38:22KES however long you have to live but
38:25when you go before him
38:27he doesn't have to ask you why did you
38:31forsake my land that I gave to your you
38:34you people why she said you won't have
38:36to answer that so she said you have two
38:40choices on how to come home you can come
38:43home an old man in a body bag and be
38:47buried in Kess
38:48is or she said you can come home as an
38:51old man and kiss the
38:54ground those are your two choices and I
38:57said well can I come home as a slightly
38:59younger
39:00man you know say you know go to uh Mella
39:07in
39:08Inon and uh you know thank God for
39:11saving me and she said no those are your
39:14choices and I said fine put my name on
39:17it that's who and what she
39:21was and um so I had some cabinet members
39:26tried to ask me
39:28directly at the time um can't you be a
39:32little bit more accommodating flexible
39:35flexible yeah and I I'm sorry I mean I
39:40see Life in black and
39:42white especially here
39:45when when Esther was dying literally and
39:48I was holding her counting her
39:51breaths until there weren't anymore she
39:54said take my mask off I was in the covid
39:57ICU I was the first and only one that
39:59was allowed
40:00in um I had to I was in an army chemical
40:04warfare suit and the head nurse said you
40:07can't leave here for 72 hours or 80
40:10however long she's alive you can't live
40:12if you have to go to the bathroom you do
40:14it in this suit you can't take it
40:16off so all right I was I God gave me 72
40:21hours with her to take care of her at
40:23the end thank thank God it was a mad
40:27house in there of people screaming for
40:29their mothers their wives their children
40:31I mean it was a level of hell I didn't
40:34even Dante wouldn't have even
40:36recognized so she I took her mask off
40:41and she said take your mask off take it
40:45off and I had nothing at that moment
40:48left to live for so prob took my whole
40:51hood
40:52off and she said listen to me
40:57when I'm gone they're coming for
41:01you and I knew who she meant the
41:05politicians and she she was the
41:09gatekeeper so she said um what is
41:12politics now this woman is dying she has
41:16minutes to live and this is what she's
41:19talking about to
41:20me what is politics and I said
41:23sweetheart you're not going to live long
41:24enough for me to give you the full
41:26academic definition she laughed kind of
41:29mirthlessly and she said politics is the
41:31art of
41:33compromise what are you willing to
41:35compromise Mahar tamella
41:38tooa
41:40harab um Kev
41:43Rael Kev ysep
41:46Kut Shabbat what are you willing to
41:50compromise and I said to her nothing I
41:54won't compromise anything
41:56and she said remember that don't ever
42:01compromise wow and then she went
42:03downhill wow seconds after that she went
42:06downhill so yet another explanation for
42:08us about some of the positions you take
42:10that are hard Ironclad and you simply
42:13have no desire to to move in One
42:16Direction or the other I will not I will
42:17not be moved I know what's right if I
42:21have a question I go ask dor from rabbis
42:24that I deep respect pesak learner being
42:28one of well for a good reason for a very
42:31good reason
42:33um if we and again remember I'm growing
42:37up through the whole Pard situation
42:39right I'm now 60 you or 69 you're 69 be
42:4470 soon and you imagine I was probably
42:46around 20 25 years old when all this
42:48becomes known to the public and Pard
42:50becomes an issue in the Jewish world and
42:54um every single step of the way we are
42:57shown that everyone government CIA FBI
43:01I'm throwing around organizations I
43:03don't know exactly what they do in your
43:04regard but you know we're convinced that
43:07they're going to use every opportunity
43:09to keep you incarcerated to give you a
43:11life sentence to be completely unfair on
43:13every step of the way compared to other
43:16sentences I mean these are the argu you
43:17heard you heard all these arguments how
43:19is it possible I ask you then that they
43:21didn't figure out a way to keep you in
43:22after 30 years they couldn't find a way
43:25to actually prove some small some
43:28violation in the 30 years you're in the
43:31system that would have kept all these
43:33guys whether it's weinbergers or bitsky
43:35all all of them in the state department
43:38happy that you're still in
43:40jail at one point excuse me
43:45sir at one
43:48point Edward black the noted historian
43:52interviewed Weinberger on the occasion
43:55of his memo is being published and
43:58Weinberger Ed asked him about my case
44:01why was lift the mic drop sorry yeah why
44:05wasn't my name mentioned in his Memoirs
44:09so he said well it was because the poet
44:12Affair was a minor matter made more
44:16important to Casper Weinberg yeah he
44:17said this made more important than it
44:20was so Ed you know like in the Jewish
44:22World We felt it was the number one
44:23thing on his list yeah no so Ed said why
44:27I mean this is contrary to what you
44:29wrote the
44:30judge and he said uh you know powers
44:34above me made that decision like who's
44:37above him the president he he made it up
44:40but he's again passing the buck
44:45so he died shortly that after that
44:49interview so we went to the um ethics
44:54division of the justice department and
44:57said you know come on it's clear that he
45:00purged himself a second time first was
45:02Iran Contra now this and they their
45:05attitude was water under the
45:07bridge they didn't want to touch it
45:09there were many instances
45:12where things that were Char alleged that
45:16I had done were were disproven
45:19conclusively even tenant the then head
45:22of the CIA the director who had no love
45:25for me admitted that um there was no
45:29evidence that any of the information
45:32that I had passed to Israel had been
45:34compromised to anybody else
45:36wow okay that's kind of
45:39important the fact that here's this
45:43thing nobody reads my
45:45indictment if you read my indictment it
45:48they don't know what you're accused of
45:49or what I'm accused of it says in black
45:51and white I acted without intent to harm
45:56the United States wow you know intent is
46:00very important in the law so here it's
46:03the government saying
46:05that
46:07so when I finally after 20 years got my
46:11a document that showed exactly what harm
46:16I had done it took me 20 years to get it
46:20and I understood why when I saw it what
46:23did the government actually say that I
46:25that we didn't know about well they had
46:28to be pretty accurate for the judge
46:31right so what they said
46:33was I angered our Arab allies in the
46:38Middle East by in their
46:40estimating by making Israel too strong
46:45Ali and that the information that I did
46:48give Israel while it was supposed to
46:52have been given right resulted in the
46:55United States is losing negotiating
46:57Advantage okay I'm sorry that's not the
47:00stuff of the most dangerous man in in
47:03the United States right so back to my
47:06question can we find something wrong
47:07that happened in those 30 years or not
47:09except except
47:12again remember God runs the world so
47:16what ha what actually
47:18happened the J the jpa the deal with
47:23Iran there were a group group of
47:26senators that were meeting with um an
47:29individual from the White House who
47:32didn't want to sign on to all of
47:34this so this guy came to meet them what
47:38did he talk about he said the president
47:41has decided that Pard would be on parole
47:44oh wow it completely deflected
47:48everything why how did this happened
47:50what you know what
47:52happened what happened was the
47:56announcement of my eventual release on
47:59parole was accompanied by a barrage of
48:03anti-israel statements that I was the
48:06worst spy had done immense damage that
48:10it was typical of the israelies of what
48:12they we were we're so kind to them we
48:14give them everything and look they put a
48:16spy in our midst and look at the damage
48:18that he's I mean it was all over again
48:22recycled so it was an attempt and we
48:25gotten this later from confirmed by
48:28people in the government that it was an
48:30effort by the Obama White House to
48:33Blacken Israel by using me and to keep
48:38you in prison essentially no no they
48:41were going to release me but they wanted
48:43me out so that they could basically
48:48point to me they could get reporters to
48:50come near me and ask me provocative
48:53questions and etc etc but if you look at
48:57the the news surrounding the report of
49:00my release it's all negative yeah I mean
49:04they wanted to paint that picture
49:05specifically they wanted but it wasn't
49:06of me Israel it was of
49:09Israel and uh so it was actually a Ness
49:14it's like balam and balak they came to
49:17curse Israel and but you are telling me
49:19that it was a miracle you're telling me
49:20that God runs the world and that I sort
49:22of have a good a good premise here that
49:24that the way things were going the prior
49:2630 years they I wasn't getting up right
49:28they were going to think of that's why
49:29people like me the regular bals in
49:31America were shocked that you were
49:33parole the first parole hearing I went
49:35to and I had to go I was I was in 2015
49:40or much earlier it was about a year
49:42before the end of 2014 it was a
49:46disaster I mean they were so negative
49:49towards me and so offensive and you left
49:52thinking I there's no way right in fact
49:55it one point the head of the National
49:57Security director of the justice
49:59department was just absolutely
50:01blackening me we had submitted
50:04documentation showing that I had certain
50:07uh projects that I'd been working on in
50:09prison that would benefit the economy of
50:12the United States and he didn't care I
50:14mean he was so I finally said can I say
50:17something it's on the TV and Elliot low
50:21my lawyer said
50:23Jonathan no profanity
50:25okay I thought it was going to say no
50:27jokes no this is not prison okay I mean
50:30this is not a prison conversation please
50:32I said it's okay I looked at the guy and
50:34I said you know what you hate more me
50:37more than you love the United
50:39States and he came up I he I had the
50:42right response I mean he came up out of
50:44his seat screaming and yelling I was Mo
50:47very gratified so the second time we
50:49went for parole I just
50:52thought this is going to be a Repeat
50:54Performance
50:55and next thing I know it's directly
50:58opposite they're talking about my
51:01release and that I have to wear GPS and
51:04this and that and I looked at Elliot he
51:07was completely uh flumix he said where
51:09did this come
51:11from and that's why you're saying bam
51:13like because God puts the because it's
51:16the same people who just a few months
51:19before called me everything but a white
51:22man that's a prison joke but by the way
51:26feel you don't have to I'm like Rodney
51:28Dangerfield I'm dying up here by the way
51:31I went to dangerfields Once stupidly and
51:35I sat in the front row this was many
51:37many years ago before I got arrested and
51:40for some reason he picked on me imagine
51:43that and um okay he he was a nice guy
51:47afterwards I got a free water down drink
51:49you know that was I said to him you know
51:52if I wanted bottled water I would have I
51:54would have asked for it so he smelled it
51:57he said oh my God he said he went and
51:59got me a real drink um nice guy nice guy
52:03said some horrible things to me if I
52:05really gave a hell about myself I would
52:07have been really insulted he you see he
52:09started preparing you for started
52:10preparing me for for prison yeah you're
52:13nothing yeah I'm nothing um so it was a
52:17miracle that they they let me out and it
52:19was a
52:21miracle there was another miracle that
52:24happened just before um we came to the
52:29time where they had to make a decision
52:32whether my parole was over and I could
52:36go home right five years yeah or or what
52:39and we were down to
52:40hours where they had to make a decision
52:43or else I would have to stay in and that
52:47decision would be made by the the
52:49succeeding administration of Joe Biden
52:52and we found out that uh they wanted to
52:56keep me in prison oh so wait a second
52:58with another
52:59indictment there
53:02why I never
53:04talked they wanted me to talk and
53:07remember that issue and I'm going to get
53:10back to this so I needed a passport to
53:13get out and I said well I have an
53:15Israeli passport and he said no as a
53:17dual National you became an isra right
53:20okay I need an American passport State
53:21Department said yeah it'll take about N9
53:24months it was Co at another two months
53:26yeah
53:28so
53:30um the reason I'm interrupting you is
53:32because the rumor is that Donald Trump
53:34gets some credit here no not true no uh
53:37the people that that first of all Trump
53:40never objected to it so let's right give
53:42him credit for that let's put that on
53:44the table he never objected to it um
53:47number one number two uh his chief of
53:51staff um who's
53:53now under under the gun in Georgia oh
53:57yeah I I can never see I can never both
54:00of us now are drawing a anybody want to
54:02volunteer name here but but but both he
54:05and his wife were in the White House and
54:08um Mark
54:11um say
54:13itow meadows Meadows Meadows okay I had
54:15the first name I had the first name I
54:17get some partial credit for that like
54:19that um he I consider to be an honest um
54:26God-fearing Christian I I'd never really
54:30run into one before but he was one he
54:33and his
54:34wife and I'm sorry for the trouble he's
54:37in now misplaced misguided
54:41loyalty if he had I I asked him to stay
54:45as a congressman from North Carolina and
54:48he said I can control him I said anytime
54:52you anybody has to say I can can control
54:55the president of the United States you
54:57better rethink that they're fooling
54:59themselves okay so it was Mark Meadows
55:01wow Ron
55:03durmer Ron
55:04durmer um and Miriam and Sheldon
55:09adelon of course Ester
55:12PES they all played roles in this you
55:16don't mention BB and you don't mention
55:17Trump these are the four that you give
55:20the credit those were the four so the
55:23Night Before Christmas
55:26and it was really loud in the house
55:28because we were living on East 49th it
55:30was really
55:31loud um what R me know we're going to go
55:33overtime go ahead I'm sorry uh we got a
55:36call I got a call from Ron durmer and he
55:39said you got to get across to Hudson
55:41yards on the other side of Manhattan and
55:43I'm looking it's gridlock why he said
55:45there's a passport waiting for you I
55:48said how did this happen he said uh
55:51Pompeo another name then we have to give
55:53credit to he said Mike Pompeo
55:55called the passport office and said this
55:58guy is coming in I don't care what
56:00information he gives you wow you put it
56:02down in the passport and you get it done
56:05so we walked out Esther and I walked
56:06outside there some good people out there
56:08and this the um car came in there's a
56:13Jamaican roll down the window and pot
56:15smoke just poured out and I said can you
56:19get me to the Hudson yards oh yeah I'm
56:22on the immigration office he knew that I
56:24said I got 20
56:26minutes I gave I showed him a $100 bill
56:30and I said you get to party tonight if
56:34you me there he did oneway Streets
56:38sidewalks you figured it's not the most
56:40dangerous stuff you could a motivation
56:41look this guy was going to party that
56:43night one way or the other so 20 minutes
56:46later maybe a half hour later we walked
56:48out of the building and I had a brand
56:50new passport wow and so the next day uh
56:55Miriam sent a beautiful car for us and
56:58we got there we took all our stuff on
57:00the airplane because we were coming into
57:03lockdown into B so we brought food and
57:06everything and we got on the plane
57:09there's no security anywhere no Customs
57:11no police the whole place was empty the
57:14jet still had its Motors running so we
57:17got on and uh took off and everybody was
57:21clapping and I said everybody means how
57:23many people are on that plane oh 10
57:26about and um until we crossed the
57:31international line I was expecting Jets
57:33to come up and turn us around the funny
57:36thing that happened when we landed BB
57:39had promised Trump in writing there
57:41would be no publicity right okay
57:44everybody was there right so he's
57:46standing at the bottom of the
57:48staircase and I turned to Esther and I
57:51said well I'll tell you exactly what I
57:54said I said Jesus Christ I said the
57:57Prime Minister BB is out there what am I
57:59supposed to say and she leaned back and
58:02she said I'm
58:03retired that's it she said you're on
58:05your own you're on your own so as we
58:08were leaving the airplane well one of
58:11the co-pilots they had double crew
58:13because they had to leave ran down and
58:15he's yelling something at BBE pointing
58:18at the airplane BB's laughing and he's
58:22yelling he didn't know who he was he
58:25thought he was grounds keeper a
58:26groundsman he was yelling at him to get
58:29on the airplane and get the luggage off
58:31oh my gosh and BB is standing there
58:33laughing and finally the co-pilot said
58:35do you understand English and he put his
58:38hands on BB and that's when the security
58:41came they set him straight he ran up the
58:44stairs and locked himself in the
58:45bathroom in the back of the airplane
58:47blame so as we
58:49left the pilot was an old guy looked at
58:53me and he said you know who are you you
58:57have no idea who I
58:59was and uh I used a line that I from a
59:03hero of mine I said I'm just an old Jew
59:06returning to his homeland and he looks
59:09at me and he said you're not my or
59:12Lancey I said you're
59:15right you're right well barem you're not
59:17because lansi had a much different fi um
59:21my my Lansky in my books was a Jewish
59:25hero I'm sorry agreed but you'd also
59:26agree he was betrayed by the state of
59:28Israel yes because they sent him back
59:30correct I
59:31felt um I understood how he felt when
59:35they sent him back I it was the most
59:38disgusting thing after everything he did
59:41for Israel in
59:431948 every people will be amazed if they
59:46heard the masus neish that this guy had
59:49for for AEL at that time and and what
59:53did they do extr they
59:56extradited yeah so
59:59um everything there were so many
1:00:03opportunities that could have situations
1:00:06that could have aside from the BB
1:00:07greeting there was also there were some
1:00:09celebrations am I right or not not
1:00:11saying that you planned the celebrations
1:00:13but were you ever you went straight into
1:00:14beud straight into uh and again it was
1:00:16very familiar to me locked down bar how
1:00:19ironic you get to Israel You're lock and
1:00:21when I finally you know
1:00:26I'm not 4 hours here I'm tired and the
1:00:29door
1:00:30knocks open up the door someone I know
1:00:34in the prime minister's office he just
1:00:37walks
1:00:38in make yourself at home so I shut the
1:00:42door and Esther came out and she looked
1:00:44at me and she screamed at me she said
1:00:46you're in your
1:00:47underwear and I I'm a typical male I
1:00:51just said but they're
1:00:52clean I mean what do you want for me
1:00:54they're clean you know I I have to she
1:00:56threw a coat on me and he said um I'm
1:01:00coming from the RO I have an
1:01:03offer um number five on the list on the
1:01:08list so I looked at Esther and you know
1:01:12she was making coffee and I said not
1:01:17acceptable so he said I've given powers
1:01:20to
1:01:21negotiate I said Okay I want to be
1:01:23number one
1:01:25just wait so he said Jonathan you can't
1:01:28be that's BB's BB's slot I said that's
1:01:32what I want you want me it's I want to
1:01:34be number one he said look we're making
1:01:37an honest offer to
1:01:39you we haven't made this offer to anyone
1:01:42else this is a golden opportunity for
1:01:45you to re to integrate into the you know
1:01:49Halls of power you know to make up for
1:01:52the 30 years that you you
1:01:55know so I looked at him and I said you
1:01:58know for as long as I've known
1:02:00you and it's been a long time you've
1:02:02never lied to me until right
1:02:06now what do you mean I said I'm the
1:02:08third person you offered this poison
1:02:10chalice to this morning you knew this
1:02:13for a fact so he said how do you know
1:02:15that I said well I just got it confirmed
1:02:19you just guessed it I said that's the
1:02:20oldest interrogation trick in the
1:02:23world I already been called by somebody
1:02:26and to prepare myself that that he's
1:02:29coming and he's already been to two
1:02:31other people wouldn't that have been a
1:02:33terrible slap in the face of the United
1:02:34States and Trump if you'd be member of
1:02:37of government or at that particular time
1:02:40you know what if Trump had been
1:02:43president no it it would have been okay
1:02:47um because I would have said the right
1:02:50things you know thank you my life he was
1:02:53more concerned while was an off my life
1:02:55is turned around I thank you I'm I'm
1:02:57going to be the best you know friend
1:02:59that the United States ever had here you
1:03:01know God
1:03:03for whatever whatever so it it could
1:03:05have been finessed um
1:03:11so coming into beud here
1:03:14into it was uh I finally came out of it
1:03:17and uh the first thing I wanted to do
1:03:19was just walk down a Jaffa Street and
1:03:23there was nobody there it was kind of
1:03:25like a post-apocalyptic type dystopian
1:03:28environment there was except for the
1:03:30cats there was just nobody there was
1:03:34nobody and you know coming out of New
1:03:36York where we went kind of through the
1:03:39same thing you know it was not as
1:03:41shocking as it could have been but
1:03:45um uh amazing that you've spent this
1:03:47entire hour with us I still have three
1:03:50personal matters I'd like to address
1:03:52with you if I may absolutely
1:03:55um are you aware of the fact and I'm
1:03:58sort of being uh rhetorical with this
1:04:01because I can't imagine the answer is no
1:04:03are you aware of the fact that hundreds
1:04:05of thousands if not millions of Jews
1:04:08prayed for your release in the mrai AA
1:04:11mrai where I've zaved for the last 30
1:04:13years or at least from when I moved into
1:04:15Lower Manhattan until Co every Shabbat
1:04:19we said a mish I said it very often I
1:04:21was the leader very often we set a mish
1:04:23for you and and I must add this cuz you
1:04:26must hear this when you were released we
1:04:29refused to stop saying the Mish because
1:04:33your wish was not to be released your
1:04:35wish was to be bayat correct here in
1:04:37Israel when you finally got to Israel we
1:04:40declared in the synagogue this custom is
1:04:43now over um let me answer this or
1:04:47respond to this with the story about
1:04:50Esther people would come up to her here
1:04:53and apologize for not doing more to help
1:04:57me get out and she would look at them
1:05:00and she said um ask them have you doed
1:05:03have you said f for
1:05:05him um yes she said well Hashem has a CO
1:05:11Shel for yonathan in sham and when that
1:05:16Co is filled he will come home so thank
1:05:19you for helping adding to it to to add
1:05:24to that and I want to take this
1:05:26opportunity to thank both you and
1:05:28everybody else who do for me but you
1:05:31have to understand
1:05:33that I have a tremendous amount of
1:05:37responsibility now to live up to this
1:05:42kind of AAS
1:05:45Isel by what I do here it's not enough
1:05:49to just come
1:05:50out you people just don't come out like
1:05:54this and do nothing you actually have to
1:05:57do something Tas you have to do
1:05:58something practical to say thank
1:06:02you and I'm I'm trying to do that now
1:06:05with some of my business projects that
1:06:08will benefit Israel but um come the
1:06:12election the new elections again
1:06:16um my obligation to
1:06:20Esther responsibilities to her her dying
1:06:23advice to me and to everybody who doed
1:06:26for my release is not to compromise not
1:06:30to bend I want people to feel good about
1:06:35the fact that they helped helped God
1:06:39release
1:06:40me so and by the way people may be
1:06:43surprised I didn't focus more in this
1:06:44conversation about what's happening
1:06:45today but this policy of yours I think
1:06:48gives everyone a perspective of what you
1:06:50think of today's situation and how how
1:06:53bending or being flexible and listening
1:06:55to the Americans can only be detrimental
1:06:58to the state of Israel corre absolutely
1:07:00so I think people understand that yeah
1:07:02we're a nation that dwells apart and we
1:07:04can take care of ourselves we have a
1:07:06good army as long as we remain faithful
1:07:09to a you would recommend not taking a
1:07:11penny of aid from the United States I
1:07:12would assume ever ever right it's like
1:07:16giving drugs to
1:07:18somebody it's it's you are now under
1:07:21their control yeah well you're you're
1:07:23like dependent
1:07:24right um You were involved this is the
1:07:26second thing I want to tell you you were
1:07:27involved in one of the one of the most
1:07:29interesting stories of my career without
1:07:31you even knowing we were scheduled to
1:07:33come visit you yes um you were visited
1:07:37by a I think it was a congressional de
1:07:38it was so long ago I honestly don't
1:07:41another but it was I think it was a
1:07:42Congressional Delegation some local
1:07:44elected officials and they invited me
1:07:46along to come to the uh to the visit and
1:07:49of course I was so thrilled that I would
1:07:50have this opportunity to come and speak
1:07:51to you the night now you have to
1:07:54remember something I don't know if you
1:07:55ever heard of me before today frankly
1:07:57but you have to oh have you thank you
1:07:59okay what do you think thank you we
1:08:02answered that
1:08:03question so so the the I I know who you
1:08:07are thank you very you're George Soros
1:08:09aren't
1:08:10you you met you met some of my prot you
1:08:14met some of my prot govern
1:08:16Shonda so I'm in this small radio
1:08:19station College radio station and trying
1:08:21to make believe that I'm a real
1:08:22journalist you know doing this morning
1:08:24show for the Jewish World etc etc and uh
1:08:28and you know and at the same time I'm
1:08:29invited to come visit you the night
1:08:31before I'll never forget this phone call
1:08:33my house no cell phones I will never
1:08:36forget this phone call and the night
1:08:38before one of the elected officials
1:08:39calls me and says the FBI I think they
1:08:42said FBI I don't know which organization
1:08:43would be responsible for it has nicked
1:08:45your participation in this trip to
1:08:48Jonathan PA I said why you're a
1:08:50journalist and this I said you know I've
1:08:53been fighting my entire life be taken as
1:08:56a serious Journal all of a sudden now
1:08:57I'm a serious journalist it's not not
1:09:00everybody that that dumps
1:09:02onu uh is a bad person and that was a
1:09:07good thing that happened because um yes
1:09:10it validated the fact that you were a
1:09:12journalist I'm being polite right now
1:09:14thank you my mother thanks you now well
1:09:17you're not a doctor or a plumber or a
1:09:19lawyer that that was actually it was a
1:09:21doctor lawyer and plumber that's what my
1:09:24mother said to me said you have three
1:09:26options in this country plumber may be
1:09:27first but plumber now a plumber would be
1:09:29first no I
1:09:31mean to interview with a journalist what
1:09:35happened eventually was that the
1:09:37journalist and I had to sign a document
1:09:42that said that the government would
1:09:44retain ownership of the interview if it
1:09:48were an electronic interview right and
1:09:50that they would apportion out what they
1:09:52deemed to be appropriate to the
1:09:54journalist and that they were not
1:09:56responsible for any here it comes
1:10:00misuse of the interview so I asked Alan
1:10:04dtz I said what what does that mean he
1:10:07said they're going to cut and paste
1:10:08right so the question that you'll be
1:10:10asked do you consider yourself a traitor
1:10:12they'll figure out where you said yes
1:10:14and they'll just edit it in that's what
1:10:17they he said you can't do this it's
1:10:19against your first amendment rights
1:10:22so
1:10:27um okay so so there was a there was a
1:10:30big difference when you met with a
1:10:32journalist or with a sympathetic elected
1:10:35official right it was because they knew
1:10:37that the journalist conversation would
1:10:38become somehow part of the public record
1:10:40so to speak and they wanted to make sure
1:10:42to stop correct correct to stop the the
1:10:45information that you wanted to go out
1:10:48well they knew I wasn't going to say
1:10:49anything I shouldn't but and I would
1:10:51assume there are other people in the
1:10:52room as this is happening right I would
1:10:53assume look the whole thing broke when I
1:10:56had a journalist come to see me and he
1:10:59was asking me a whole bunch of questions
1:11:01about the sensitivity of the information
1:11:03and everything else and the the monitors
1:11:06were looking waiting looking at me like
1:11:08how am I going to answer this because
1:11:10they were ready to come down on me for
1:11:12violating
1:11:14whatever I thought about it and I said
1:11:16um look you understand that I was not
1:11:21indicted for intent to harm you
1:11:23understand
1:11:24that yes that's black and
1:11:27white and you understand that there is
1:11:30some
1:11:31information that is so sensitive that if
1:11:34compromised to anybody even the closest
1:11:37of
1:11:38friends could inflict incalculable
1:11:41damage on the National Security would
1:11:44you agree with that even if my intent
1:11:47were not to harm the United States there
1:11:49is certain information that is so
1:11:52potentially damaging which if
1:11:54compromised um would justify the
1:11:58imposition of a charge an indictment of
1:12:01intentional harm intent to harm he
1:12:04listened and he said yes okay I
1:12:07understand that so I said so what is
1:12:09your
1:12:10conclusion by the fact that I was never
1:12:13charged with intent to
1:12:15harm and he looked at the monitors and
1:12:17he looked back he said they're bsing I
1:12:21said Thank you and I looked at the
1:12:23Monitor and he was trying to figure out
1:12:27some way of claiming that I violated
1:12:30security or whatever and I couldn't he I
1:12:32mean he couldn't it's just common
1:12:35logic so okay you're a journalist now
1:12:39you get to wear long pants it's
1:12:41fine um you're you're no longer a b
1:12:45thank you for the approbation and
1:12:47finally uh for me I save the best for
1:12:50last I I never thought in my life i' I'd
1:12:52be able to thank thank you for this face
1:12:54to face personally you um you were asked
1:12:56to speak at shiffer Hoffman's funeral
1:13:00correct by the way she said paranoid
1:13:03Jews live longer agree or disagree oh I
1:13:05I should live at least to 120 then I
1:13:07mean even paranoid Jews have real
1:13:09enemies I can't remember who said that
1:13:12but it may have been her as may have may
1:13:15been the continuation of her Theory may
1:13:17have been her you spoke you spoke at her
1:13:19funeral at the levah yeah the next
1:13:22funeral after hers was for my dear
1:13:25friend mayor
1:13:27weard and our good friend Carney walked
1:13:30up to
1:13:31you and she said the person we're about
1:13:34to
1:13:35bury had a strong connection to you I
1:13:38don't remember the exact word she used
1:13:40when she introduced it and you said what
1:13:43do you mean so she said that he meaning
1:13:45mayor my closest friend who we lost
1:13:49unfortunately a couple of years ago
1:13:51suddenly mayor had 15
1:13:54seconds with President Bill
1:13:56Clinton to say say to him ask him
1:13:59whatever he wanted as many people do you
1:14:01go to a meeting with the president and
1:14:03everyone has a chance to walk by him
1:14:04shake his hand and say something right I
1:14:06Met George Bush what did I say to him I
1:14:08said thank you for what you do for
1:14:10Israel and the Jewish people was it the
1:14:11right thing to do I don't know but
1:14:12that's what came to my mind that I said
1:14:13it okay mayor wearden Carney says to you
1:14:17we have this on video by the way Carney
1:14:18says to yigal was right there he was
1:14:20right next to you when this happened
1:14:22waiting for the funeral to start Carney
1:14:24says to you that mayor our dear friend
1:14:26mayor wiard who by the way had a an
1:14:28apartment right here on
1:14:31atinsky he he saw President Clinton for
1:14:3415 seconds and used the opportunity to
1:14:37ask him to do everything in his power to
1:14:40free Jonathan
1:14:43Pard you said to Carney in
1:14:47response I hope that stands in good
1:14:50measure in
1:14:51Shayan I wish our our leaders had the
1:14:54kind of Courage as had the kind of
1:14:58Courage as mayor had you said this with
1:15:00his name every time a Jew show this is
1:15:03you speaking every time a Jew shows no
1:15:07fear and stands up for his brothers and
1:15:10sisters that's
1:15:14Aus you told a story then to her from
1:15:17kevio with a soldier that you were with
1:15:21at kevio and that based on that episode
1:15:24you said this is how we know we're going
1:15:27to win correct because of the akas and
1:15:29unity which by the way if there is any
1:15:32positive byproduct of this war you'd
1:15:33have to agree I'm on record of saying
1:15:36that that if there is a silver lining to
1:15:38this otherwise black event um it's that
1:15:42people now are together and their eyes
1:15:44are open you said you continued we know
1:15:48the expression the slogan you in our
1:15:51tradition you save one life you save a
1:15:54world and then you concluded by saying
1:15:56to her and I felt you said this to all
1:15:58of us who were his friends and I would
1:16:00have been there if not for
1:16:02covid you are very privileged and lucky
1:16:05to know
1:16:06him can't thank you enough for that um
1:16:10from one Jew to another yeah and he
1:16:13spends the 15 seconds concerned about
1:16:16you um we H if we
1:16:20don't if you cannot feel the pain of
1:16:24your brother or sister as if it's your
1:16:28own if you can't feel the pain of the
1:16:31land as is violated by our
1:16:35enemies and if you can't feel the fear
1:16:39of our children when they have 15
1:16:41seconds or 20 seconds to run to a bomb
1:16:44shelter to escape a rocket then I really
1:16:48question your
1:16:50lineage you have to be willing willing
1:16:54to put your life on the line if
1:16:56necessary for your brothers and sisters
1:16:59you have to we don't live for the
1:17:01present we live for
1:17:03shamai and so when you run across people
1:17:06like this you have to say hasem there
1:17:10was somebody that stood up there was
1:17:12somebody that was star or yid there was
1:17:15somebody that wouldn't bend that that
1:17:17defended our good name and our people
1:17:20which he
1:17:21did the there are lots of good Jews that
1:17:24I've come to know yourself
1:17:26included that I think are going to have
1:17:28to ask some very hard questions of
1:17:31themselves over the coming days weeks
1:17:34and months and what is that question
1:17:38that question is is it the right time
1:17:40now to come
1:17:44home people tell me and I got this all
1:17:48the time in New York we're waiting for
1:17:52mosiah
1:17:53and Esther Al Shalom gave me the
1:17:56appropriate response to people like that
1:17:59and what is it maybe he's waiting for
1:18:04us and coming home
1:18:07now I think is
1:18:11imperative the galut especially in
1:18:14America was good for a while it was okay
1:18:17but it's you're an American from Texas
1:18:19you got it yeah but um y got to come
1:18:23home now here yall got to come home
1:18:26that's what they say in gal yeah yall
1:18:28yall have to come home now actually it's
1:18:30I hate to keep telling funny stories it
1:18:33wrecks the whole thing my wife Rifka
1:18:36comes from
1:18:38Birmingham I said Alabama and she said
1:18:41no
1:18:43England you nobody nobody comes from
1:18:46Birmingham Alabama I mean British
1:18:48friends of mine from London or
1:18:50Manchester where okay
1:18:54and she has a very peculiar accent and
1:18:56when she gets on a roll I really I
1:18:59honestly I which is good for a husband
1:19:02yeah sometimes I say yes yes dear and
1:19:04that's it you know I don't know what
1:19:05she's asking so I said to her look let
1:19:08me explain how I used to talk and it's
1:19:11taken me 40 years almost to lose the
1:19:15accent so I went through it and she just
1:19:18looked at me and said my Lord you've
1:19:21lost about a hundred I Q points in my
1:19:24life that's hilarious yeah all right
1:19:26come to Texas and you'll see how much
1:19:27lower it can be um but just in
1:19:31conclusion is is
1:19:33seriousness
1:19:35um it's time to come
1:19:38home when this kind of
1:19:42brutal anti-Semitism is now
1:19:46mainstream and is not being
1:19:49opposed um by
1:19:54anybody the
1:19:56police um government acemia no nobody
1:20:00it's like accepted it's
1:20:02mainstream that's when you know you know
1:20:05you don't want to wait until it's
1:20:07crystal clear right if we know anything
1:20:09from Jewish history if we know anything
1:20:11from Jewish history it's that the the
1:20:15trials and tribulations of our past in
1:20:18galut are embedded in our
1:20:21genes even as estranged as we might be
1:20:24from Judaism and from the am it's still
1:20:28there the pin yid still has that and you
1:20:31have to listen to it because it may mean
1:20:35your life it may mean your life so learn
1:20:39from
1:20:40history
1:20:42and pack up rationally carefully
1:20:46slowly and come home this is
1:20:50home where they may not like like you
1:20:53but it won't be because you're
1:20:56Jewish Jonathan par I can't thank you
1:20:59enough my
1:21:04pleasure our brothers and sisters in
1:21:06Israel we are with you this is America's
1:21:09one and only Jewish moments in the
1:21:10morning radio program heard on listeners
1:21:13sponsored Digital radio around the world
1:21:14web at al.com on the networking of
1:21:17course on the Beloved NSN app my thanks
1:21:19to Jonathan Pard my thanks to all of you
1:21:22plenty coming up here we're a little bit
1:21:23behind schedule but we'll catch up at
1:21:25some point plenty coming up on a
1:21:27Thursday as we always say no need to
1:21:29touch that do when you're listening to
1:21:31the NSN Network tomorrow morning plenty
1:21:33more including our weekly update and of
1:21:34course Rob by uden and Harry Rothenberg
1:21:37on pares Vos and tomorrow is a fast day
1:21:41keep that in mind we'll be in Jerusalem
1:21:43literally broadcasting until chabas
1:21:46begins make sure to be tuned in have a
1:21:49fabulous Thursday till tomorrow a SE
1:21:51reminding you remember the past live the
1:21:53present and Trust the
1:21:54[Music]
1:21:58future thank
1:22:01you you had some inspiring
1:22:10[Music]
1:22:20messages that what you went
1:22:28straight I apologize I just

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