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Full Interview: Julian Assange on Trump, DNC Emails, Russia, the CIA, Vault 7 & More — Transcript

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0:03this is democracy Now democracynow.org
0:06the Warren peace report I'm Amy Goodman
0:09and I'm Juan Gonzalez welcome to all of
0:11our listeners and viewers around the
0:12country and around the world today we
0:15spend the hour with Julian Assange the
0:17founder of WikiLeaks it's been nearly
0:19five years since he entered the the
0:21Ecuadorian Embassy in London seeking
0:24political Asylum fearing a Swedish
0:26arrest warrant could lead to his
0:28extradition to the United States
0:30despite being holed up in the embassy
0:32assange's impact is still being felt
0:34across the globe his Asylum case
0:37recently became an issue in the
0:38Ecuadorian presidential election the
0:41right-wing candidate GED masso had vowed
0:44to remove Assange from the embassy if he
0:46won but lasso lost to president Rafael
0:50Korea's former vice president lening
0:52Moreno who said Assange is welcome to
0:55stay meanwhile Wikileaks recently began
0:58releasing a massive troll of secret CIA
1:01documents exposing how the agency has
1:04developed tools to hack into and spy on
1:06principal phones computers and
1:08televisions all over the world Wikileaks
1:11described the leak as the largest ever
1:13release of confidential documents on the
1:16CIA Wikileaks activity before the 2016
1:20election is also still generating
1:22headlines just before the Democratic
1:25National Convention last July Wikileaks
1:27published 20,000 intern internal emails
1:30from the Democratic National Committee
1:32within two days the head of the DNC
1:35Debbie waserman Schultz resigned her
1:37post in part because the email showed
1:39the DNC work behind the scenes to
1:41discredit and defeat Bernie Sanders who
1:44is challenging Hillary Clinton for the
1:46nomination less than three months later
1:49Wikileaks began publishing internal
1:51emails from Clinton's campaign chairman
1:53John podesta soon Donald Trump was
1:56praising Wikileaks on the campaign Trail
2:00this just came out this just came out
2:03Wikileaks I love Wikileaks between
2:06October 7th an election day Wikileaks
2:09would go on to publish 20,000 of podesta
2:12emails generating a rash of negative
2:15stories about the Clinton
2:17campaign us intelligence agencies have
2:20accused Russia of hacking the DNC and
2:22podesta accounts but many questions
2:24still remain about what happened during
2:26a recent Congressional hearing FBI
2:29director James
2:30placed the blame on Russia intelligence
2:33when questioned by congressman Adam
2:35Schiff do you know whether the Russian
2:37intelligence Services dealt directly
2:39with Wikileaks or whether they too used
2:42an
2:43intermediary we assess they used some
2:45kind of cutout they didn't deal directly
2:47with Wikileaks in contrast to DC leaks
2:50and gfer 2.0 that was FBI director James
2:54Comey on March 20th well joining us now
2:57from the ecuadoran embassy in London is
3:00Julian Assange the founder of WikiLeaks
3:02Julian welcome back to democracy Now
3:05good morning Amy did Russia leak the
3:09documents either the DNC documents or
3:12the John podesta emails to
3:16WikiLeaks we have said quite clearly
3:18that our source is not a member of any
3:21State uh including the Russian
3:23government uh now if you look at these
3:25statements by James Cony uh James
3:28Clapper
3:30going back a couple of months statements
3:32by Barack Obama they all are harmonious
3:36with our description now what uh what
3:41the US uh investigation by James Comey
3:46seems to be trying to say at least in
3:48public uh is that they uh perceive that
3:52there was some Russian hacking or at
3:55least some hacking from somewhere of the
3:58DNC other institutions of the United
4:01States in fact the allegations are that
4:02several thousands of people uh were
4:05hacked uh in those operations but how do
4:08you know well how do you know it's not
4:10Russia how do you know it's not a state
4:12actor since you usually say you don't
4:14know who gives you
4:17documents we we look very closely at our
4:21Publications we tend to come to a good
4:23understanding of them and so uh we're
4:26not willing to go into details about our
4:28source because it might
4:30describe the sort of person they are uh
4:33the sort of jurisdiction that they're in
4:35uh which could put them at risk but we
4:39have said clearly that our source is not
4:41a member of Russian State uh and even
4:44the US government is not suggesting uh
4:47that our source is a member of Russian
4:49State and what appears to be going on is
4:52that uh there have been observations of
4:55hacking of um thousands of people or
4:58attempted hacking of thousands of people
5:00that's quite normal uh in intelligence
5:03gathering Gathering activity before an
5:05election uh presumably that's been
5:07carried out by many states I would be
5:09surprised if that doesn't include
5:12Russia over here there's the
5:14publications of
5:16WikiLeaks uh and what there isn't is
5:19something in in between the middle so
5:22there's a allegation that well if
5:24there's been hacking here and there's
5:25publication over here then uh these must
5:28be directly causally intentionally
5:31related uh but so far there's no
5:33evidence for that uh Julian I want to
5:35turn to a democratic Congressman uh Adam
5:38Schiff speaking at a hearing of the
5:40house intelligence committee last
5:43month later in July and after the
5:46convention the first stolen emails
5:48detrimental to Hillary Clinton appear on
5:51Wikileaks a hacker who goes by the
5:53moniker gfer 2 claims responsibility for
5:56hacking the DNC and giving the documents
5:59to Wikileaks the leading private cyber
6:02security firms including crowd strike
6:04Mandan and threat connect review the
6:07evidence of the hack and conclude with
6:09high certainty that it was the work of
6:11ap28 and
6:13a29 who are known to be Russian
6:16intelligence Services the US
6:18intelligence Community also later
6:19confirms that the documents were in fact
6:21stolen by Russian intelligence and gfer
6:232 acted as a front also in Late July
6:28candidate Trump praises wik s says he
6:30loves them and openly appeals to the
6:32Russians to hack his opponent's emails
6:34telling them that they will be richly
6:36rewarded by the
6:37Press uh that was congressman Adam
6:39Schiff uh Julian I'm wondering if you
6:41could res uh respond to some of the
6:43things he say he's saying uh in that
6:47statement well Mr Schiff is a democratic
6:50uh Congressman who's trying to whip up a
6:52kind of Neo Mia's feror uh in order to
6:56distract uh from the epic failure of
7:00Hillary Clinton and that team uh when
7:03they lost of all people to Donald Trump
7:06so it's it's not not particularly
7:08interesting I I think we should uh pull
7:11back and put things in context uh the
7:15United States government uh since uh
7:181950 has intervened uh in 81 elections
7:23interfered to use shi's language in 81
7:26elections that is not including coups
7:28which over have over throwing the
7:29government so there there's a long
7:32history of the United States doing this
7:34to places around the world
7:38uh in in Infamous ways and uh most
7:43recently uh alleged interference uh in
7:46the election of Israel so I think we
7:49should understand that uh the United
7:52States is in a glass house when it comes
7:55to allegations of attempting to
7:57interfere with or influence
8:00uh election results but let's look at
8:02what is the real meat of this issue how
8:05is it allege uh that Russia has
8:09interfered in the US election uh process
8:13well they say uh there's been a variety
8:15of hacks well that's quite normal
8:18intelligence gathering process as far as
8:19can be determined uh and a few uh
8:23extremely uh
8:25ineffectual uh websites such as DC leaks
8:29uh or gfer 2.0 that no one really paid
8:31any attention to and then there's our
8:34Publications uh which people really did
8:36pay attention to now what is in our
8:39Publications uh well from our
8:41perspective we have just uh published
8:44accurately and fairly uh what Hillary
8:47Clinton said her positions were uh in
8:50her secret speeches to Goldman Sachs and
8:53in relation to the DNC and its attempt
8:55to rig the election to exclude the
8:57primary primary process sorry to exclude
8:59Bernie Sanders so at the heart of this
9:02issue is whether people were told the
9:06the truth about Hillary Clinton and the
9:10DNC if there hadn't been an ugly truth
9:12there it wouldn't have made any
9:14difference there was an Ugly Truth uh
9:16and we published accurately and fairly
9:19that Ugly Truth uh now our source wasn't
9:22from the Russian state but if it had
9:24been from a state would we have
9:27suppressed that information before an
9:28election we have accurately and fairly
9:31published it of course he would have
9:32published it well but J I want to ask
9:35you in relations to what you said uh
9:37we've had other guests on for instance
9:39Scott Horton who said yes you're
9:40absolutely right the United States has
9:41been involved in seeking to destabilize
9:44governments and overthrow governments
9:46all over the world but Horton said that
9:48there's a difference between what Russia
9:49attempted to do and whether anyone in
9:52the Trump Administration colluded with
9:55Russia or helped uh uh or or cooperated
9:58or or conversations with the Russians as
10:01they were seeking to destabilize the US
10:02elections and Scott Horton says that
10:04would be a definitely problematic issue
10:07for uh for Trump I'm wondering your
10:09thoughts about that I would I would
10:12agree that would be uh interesting and
10:15unusual I don't think it's true I I
10:18think uh it is interesting that uh early
10:23on uh that Trump and people around him
10:26uh took a position of reproach mon
10:28towards Russia very strong position of
10:30approachment towards Russia and not a
10:33classically republican position I think
10:35that is interesting uh it is somewhat uh
10:39compatible with Trump statements going
10:41back a very long
10:43time um but I would be surprised if that
10:48turns out to be significant why do I say
10:51that uh well Trump had very little
10:55business business success in Russia he
10:57hasn't managed to build a hotel in
10:58Russia he hasn't gotten any as far as
11:00can be determined uh any good deals uh
11:04in Russia and when you see him making
11:06statements during election campaign on
11:08the
11:09stage hey Russia if you've got those
11:11emails uh give them to our give them to
11:14the Press they'll be very uh pleased
11:16about it uh when you see statements like
11:19that this is not the sort of statement
11:21that you make if you are already if you
11:23already have a Communications Channel
11:25and you already engaged in in an active
11:28conspiracy
11:29for people like Paul
11:32manfor uh that's someone who's perfectly
11:35capable of engaging in uh
11:38in well let's say dodgy activities uh
11:43they have a long history of working for
11:45V various parties in different ways uh
11:48have they asked for support uh through
11:51Paul manfor uh maybe but if you're
11:54looking at the top level involving Trump
11:57what I see is a a great uh uh weakness
12:01in an ability to get anything uh
12:05concretely done uh in
12:08Russia you know um while Trump may or
12:13may not have investments in Russia it's
12:15very clear the oligarchs in Russia um
12:19have bailed him out to the tune of tens
12:21of millions of dollars if not more in
12:24the United States when he was building
12:26buildings having gone bankrupt many
12:28times hard to get a line of credit um in
12:31places like just right near democracy
12:33Now um Trump Soho major building project
12:37downtown Manhattan but I wanted to turn
12:40back to democratic congressman Adam
12:41Schiff speaking at a hearing of the
12:43house intelligence committee last
12:46month on August 8th Roger Stone a
12:49longtime Trump political adviser and
12:51self-proclaimed political dirty
12:53trickster boasts in a speech that he has
12:55communicated with Assange and that more
12:58documents would be coming including an
13:00October surprise in the middle of he
13:03also communicates with a Russian cutout
13:05gfer 2 and authors a Breitbart piece
13:08denying Lucifer's links to Russian
13:10intelligence then later in August stone
13:13does something truly remarkable when he
13:15predicts that John podesta's personal
13:17emails will soon be published trust me
13:20he says it will soon be podesta's time
13:23in the barrel # crooked Hillary in the
13:27weeks that follow Stone shows a
13:29remarkable
13:30pressions I have total confidence that
13:33Wikileaks and my hero Julian Assange
13:35will educate the American people soon he
13:37says # lock her up payload coming he
13:41predicts and two days later it does
13:44Wikileaks releases its first batch of
13:46podesta emails the release of John
13:49podesta's emails would then continue on
13:51a daily basis up until the election and
13:53this is Trump adviser Roger Stone
13:56speaking on August 8th
13:59with regard to the October surprise what
14:01would be your forecast on that given
14:03what Julian ass has intimated he's going
14:06to do well it could be any number of
14:09things I actually have uh communicated
14:13with the Sange uh I believe the next
14:15trunch of his documents pertain to the
14:18Clinton Foundation but there's no
14:21telling what the October surprise may be
14:24that was Roger Stone speaking August 8th
14:26in Broward County Florida um if you
14:29could respond to the substance of what
14:30they're saying Julian and explain what
14:33is your relationship with Roger
14:35Stone well I don't want to be an
14:38apologist uh for these people but uh
14:41really Party politics in the United
14:43States uh is something that everyone has
14:46to get away from uh this this creation
14:48of of two polarities by different Elites
14:52that then suck up all the political
14:55energy in the country uh well we can
14:58talk a little bit later about what's
15:00happened uh to the Trump Administration
15:02and this fascinating process that we've
15:05been seeing about how many days uh does
15:08it take uh for the security sector to
15:11digest the president uh something like
15:1375 it appears to be the answer uh okay
15:17uh Roger Stone um I've never
15:20communicated with a guy he's never
15:21communicated with me uh where other than
15:25very recently to say what are you doing
15:28saying that we have communicated please
15:29explain because as far as all our
15:31records are concerned we have it uh he
15:34has simply
15:36brilliantly inserted himself uh into uh
15:40this equation now remember Stone was
15:42pushed out uh in 2015 from the Trump
15:46campaign uh when Wikileaks was engaged
15:48in its Publications uh exposing
15:51interference in the primary process at
15:53the DNC that was
15:55the biggest thing on the political
15:59radar for that time period And so Stone
16:03having nowhere to be decided to suggest
16:08that he had Communications with us but
16:10let's look at his predictions he
16:13predicted that our Publications were
16:15going to be about the Clinton Foundation
16:17he was wrong uh all his other
16:20predictions where they're accurate
16:23statements that we made in public we
16:25said we had information about Hillary
16:27Clinton that we were going to publish it
16:29Etc uh so when you hear Adam Schiff
16:32saying oh the Roger Stone said that
16:34there's uh the Wikileaks Publications
16:36are coming we were saying I was saying
16:38uh on uh TV interviews that we had
16:41Publications that were coming that were
16:42about Hillary Clinton so uh Stone
16:45predicted that we were going to publish
16:47on October 4 we didn't publish on
16:49October 4 that was our 10 year
16:51anniversary Etc literally there's no
16:53predictions that he has made in relation
16:55to us that have come true that have not
16:58been public
16:59so I I think you know you have to admire
17:03the Huts part of how he has uh played uh
17:09on Democratic um desires of to see a
17:14connection and has exploited that in
17:17order to sell his books and in order to
17:19gain prominence I mean it's it's very
17:21impressive he just simply lays out a
17:23piece of bait uh that uh he understands
17:27that the democratically aligned press
17:31will Leap Forward slavishly and put that
17:33hook in their mouth Julian we have to
17:35break because because it suits him
17:37Wikileaks has published what it says is
17:39the largest leak of secret CIA documents
17:42in history the thousands of documents
17:44dubbed Vault 7 describe CIA programs and
17:48tools that are capable of hacking into
17:49both Apple and Android cell phones by
17:52hacking into entire phones the CIA is
17:54then reportedly able to bypass encrypted
17:57messenger programs such as signal
17:59Telegram and WhatsApp although contrary
18:02to many news reports the documents do
18:04not show the CIA has developed tools to
18:06hack these encrypted Services themselves
18:09the documents also outline a CIA and
18:11British intelligence program called
18:13weeping angel through which the spy
18:15agency can hack into a Samsung Smart
18:17television and turn it into a
18:19surveillance device that records audio
18:21conversations even when it appears to be
18:23off to talk more about the Vault 7
18:26documents we're going back to the
18:27ecuadoran Embassy in Lon we already are
18:29joined by Julian Assange the founder of
18:32WikiLeaks talk about the significance of
18:34this latest um release of documents uh
18:38Julian that Wikileaks has engaged
18:41in Vault s is the largest intelligence
18:45leak in history uh We've published so
18:48far less than 1% of that material uh now
18:53so far the Publications that we have
18:55published uh reveal that the central
18:58intellig
18:59agency uh has decided to uh create in
19:03the last uh 10 years uh its own captive
19:08version of the National Security Agency
19:10uh not specialized in bulk interception
19:13uh but specialized uh in semi-automated
19:16hacking processes that's creation of
19:19viruses Trojans Etc to put in uh
19:22people's computer systems telephones TVs
19:25and have those then report back to CIA
19:29listening posts uh that collect that
19:32information and inest it uh into the bo
19:34of CIA process and also information can
19:37be pushed using these mechanisms on uh
19:40to those telephones computers etc etc to
19:43for example uh plant information uh that
19:47could uh implicate someone uh falsely or
19:51perhaps even truly uh in a crime so I I
19:54think it's it's
19:57significant that
19:59as the Central Intelligence Agency
20:02gained budgetary and political pre
20:04preeminence of National Security Agency
20:06which used to have a bit bigger budget
20:08in the post 911 environment the cia's
20:11budget is now increased to about 1.5
20:13Times National Security Agency so in
20:16response to that uh uh increased
20:20political power where increased
20:22budgetary spend comes from uh it has
20:25created its own uh effective Air Force
20:28uh using drones and its own large uh
20:32hacker Squad so it is able to do things
20:36internally that it would previously have
20:38to go out for others to do so the
20:41Central Intelligence Agency like all
20:42institutions uh is
20:44maximizing uh its institutional power uh
20:48and it is slowly succeeding uh compared
20:51to other institutions now in response to
20:54the various disclosures about the
20:56National Security Agency most important
20:58the Edward Snowden disclosures of
21:022013 uh industry has responded to market
21:06demand in various places and various
21:09Engineers ideologically also invested in
21:11this uh to introduce encryption in
21:14WhatsApp in Signal uh greater type more
21:18types encrypted email and so on uh now
21:21the Central Intelligence agency's
21:23hacking approach uh does not Target the
21:26intermediaries like the National
21:28Security agenc does for these bulk
21:29intercepts uh instead it targets the end
21:32points and then it doesn't need to worry
21:34about the encryption for example uh if
21:37you and I Amy are communicating uh using
21:40say signal uh on a smartphone on an
21:44Apple or
21:45Android then the signal encryption
21:47protocol is actually quite good and as
21:50far as no is known it cannot be
21:53decrypted by an intermediary uh bulk
21:57spying on uh Communications traffic
21:59going across the Atlantic like the
22:01National Security Agency does uh but if
22:04either you or I have the our phones
22:07hacked uh and the CIA software
22:09specializes in doing this uh it means
22:12that that encryption doesn't matter
22:13because the because the information is
22:16gathered either before it's encrypted or
22:18after it is decrypted well uh Julian in
22:20terms of the material you have released
22:22so far you did redact any of the
22:24computer codes that you got access to
22:27and you offered to have uh uh companies
22:31uh that may be affected by this tech
22:33companies uh to to uh provide them the
22:36Code so they could fix any
22:37vulnerabilities have any companies taken
22:39you up on the
22:40offer yes that that's a a very
22:43interesting process and we knew that it
22:44would be uh so we made this offer
22:49publicly um and we also wrote to a
22:51number of the large companies such as
22:53Apple Microsoft Google Milla which
22:56produces the Milla browser Etc
22:59now uh the European companies responded
23:02almost immediately some even approached
23:04us uh a couple of us companies such as
23:08Milla responded immediately uh and we
23:11were also approached by a security
23:12engineer at Cisco uh Google Apple and
23:18Microsoft uh took uh eight or nine days
23:22depending on the company to respond now
23:25that means that they were putting the
23:26all the users at risk for8 or n days
23:28what was happening in that eight or n
23:30days well we we hear uh we're not sure
23:34it's true for all of the companies but
23:36we hear uh from one of the companies
23:38that what was happening is that they
23:40were engaging their lawyers they been
23:41worried about the politics etc etc my
23:44guess is that on the legal front uh a
23:47type of collaboration
23:50involving uh classified uh
23:54material it could be argued to be uh
23:57conspiracy
23:59to commit Espionage now of course that's
24:01not actually practically possible in the
24:03US court system or politically possible
24:06and then these companies have
24:07individuals within them who have
24:09security clearances because they work on
24:11classified projects for the government
24:13uh and particularly the security
24:15divisions of Apple Google Microsoft Etc
24:17have people with uh class security
24:20clearances in them and who might lose
24:22their security clearances if they're
24:24engaged in working uh on uh that has
24:28been distributed uh not through a formal
24:31process
24:33so uh what you see in the uh all those
24:39big three taking eight or nine days is
24:41some kind of collaboration either
24:43directly with each other or through a
24:45third party say like the Department of
24:47Justice uh to understand what role that
24:50they're going to play and the role that
24:52they ended up playing is is saying no we
24:55don't agree to fix anything which we had
24:57asked for uh within 90 days uh no we
25:00don't agree to say that any fix came
25:02from you this was our our requirement uh
25:07instead you can just throw something at
25:10our
25:11regular security reporting
25:14mechanism so what's going on there uh
25:16well no uh collabor no uh record of
25:21collaboration uh in a in a formal sense
25:24or in a political sense that could be
25:27used to um make political problems for
25:31those companies in terms of their
25:33contracts with the United States
25:34government uh or uh potentially
25:37introduce problems in relation to spage
25:41act or security clearances that's my
25:44supposition we don't know that's true
25:46for sure uh we know that some of that is
25:49true for at least one of these companies
25:50but looking at the timing uh it's it's
25:53very unusual that Google Microsoft and
25:56Apple all wrot back to us on the eighth
25:59or nth day whereas the other companies
26:02uh wrote back immediately or or at
26:04various times in October The Intercept
26:07published a conversation between Glenn
26:09Greenwald and Naomi kleene about
26:11Wikileaks his decision to disclose
26:13thousands of John podesta's personal
26:15emails this is part of what Naomi Klein
26:17said I would add it's not just that they
26:20didn't curate it um and just dumped it
26:23all right they they they are dumping it
26:25but they're they're they are um dolling
26:29out the dumps right um to maximize
26:32clearly to maximize damage right so
26:35they're not just saying hey information
26:37wants to be free here's everything we
26:39have journalists have a field day go
26:41through it right um You they're very
26:44clearly looking for maximum media
26:47attention um you can tell that just by
26:49looking at the Wikileaks you know
26:51Twitter feed um and you know timing it
26:54you know right before the debates you've
26:56written about um you know how uh
26:59dangerous it is for media organizations
27:01to be taking such a highly political uh
27:04approach to this election because they
27:05so clearly don't want Trump to get
27:07elected so they're engaging in what
27:09you've described as journalistic fraud
27:11right I agree with you um but we have to
27:14acknowledge how political Wikileaks and
27:16Julian are being here that was nail
27:18mclin in October WikiLeaks founder
27:21Julian Assan your your response to some
27:23of her
27:26remarks well I I think it's a bit Rich
27:29for naami Klein who's a very wealthy
27:31woman uh sitting up there in Canada uh
27:34to be uh accusing a political prisoner
27:37who's been detained uh for the last
27:40seven years without charge in violation
27:42of two un rulings without getting her
27:45fact straight so what what is WikiLeaks
27:48to do sit on and suppress uh evidence uh
27:52of interference in the DNC process uh
27:56wait until after the DNC uh Congress to
27:59publish that information that would be
28:01deeply unethical for this organization I
28:04would argue it would be deeply unethical
28:06for any media organization but for this
28:08organization would be deeply unethical
28:10we have a commitment to the public that
28:13we will not suppress information like
28:14that and we have a commitment to sources
28:16who come forward uh taking risks to give
28:18us information uh that we will publish
28:21it uh in a timely fashion once we have
28:23verified that is completely accurate now
28:27do we wish uh that we had uh more money
28:30and could process information uh faster
28:34uh of course we do uh but we did manage
28:37to get that publication out before the
28:39DNC and I think that was very important
28:42uh so that people involved in that
28:45process could understand who it was that
28:48they were choosing to go for now let's
28:52be realistic uh no Nomi has a particular
28:56issue a very important issue and I agree
28:58it's an important issue uh which is
29:00climate change uh and so she was willing
29:04to attack anyone in her campaign to make
29:07sure Hillary Clinton was elected because
29:10she perceived that Hillary Clinton would
29:11do better on climate change I agree
29:13that's a very serious issue uh but in
29:17relation to WikiLeaks we are an
29:19organization that has a commitment to
29:21the public uh to publish true
29:23information and not suppress it and to
29:26make sure that as many people read it as
29:27possible possible is it true that the
29:31way that uh we staged our publishing
29:34process increased the uh engagement of
29:37people in reading our material going
29:39through it etc etc of course it is did
29:42we do a good job do we did we do a good
29:44job uh in getting people enticing people
29:47uh to read and report on our material
29:49yes we did uh and we will do that for
29:52any Source any whistleblower that comes
29:54to us uh and gives us information that
29:56we will try and
29:58maximize uh the amount of readers uh
30:03that uh come as a result of the risks
30:07that those people take that's that's our
30:09our promise uh to the public uh to our
30:14readers uh and to our sources um you
30:16know early in the campaign uh Naomi did
30:18write an article um that uh uh clearly
30:22supporting Bernie Sanders writing
30:24Hillary uh Clinton cannot be trusted but
30:27we are also joined by Alan narn longtime
30:29investigative journalist and activist um
30:32Alan if you can weigh in this discussion
30:35um right now as we talk to Julian
30:37Assange in the Ecuadorian Embassy uh
30:40well I have a first I have a brief
30:42question for Julian Assange uh Mr
30:46Assange you said that uh you did not get
30:48the leaks directly from a state uh you
30:51said you know you did not get the leaks
30:53directly from a state uh do you know
30:55that Russia didn't give you the leaks
30:57through an inter
30:59mediary I'm not going to be playing 20
31:01questions on our sources I'm sure you
31:04understand Alan as a source Protection
31:05Organization uh we're not going to be
31:08inscribing circles around who our
31:10sources are uh how we communicate with
31:14them any properties that might be used
31:17to uh arrest them or um criticize them
31:22in some future process so it is possible
31:25that as Comey said Russia gave you the
31:26leaks through an intermediate
31:29I'm simply not going to comment on it
31:31okay well um my view of this is that uh
31:36during the campaign Wikileaks um often
31:39suggested that Trump would be um less
31:42dangerous than than Clinton um no we
31:46didn't uh I think you did uh I think I
31:49think that concept is wildly gruesomely
31:53U mistaken there's there was the
31:56argument well it's just that's that's
31:58fine for you to say that but you should
32:00understand that no he didn't in fact I
32:02was asked that question directly on
32:05Democracy Now uh uh at the time about
32:09what my my position was asked which one
32:12I preferred and my response is being
32:15asked this question is being asked do I
32:18prefer col or do I prefer goria okay
32:21well let's say let's say if you frame it
32:23that way the idea that the two
32:25revisionism I revisionism is occurring
32:29and you understand why it is occurring
32:31because the Democratic party had I think
32:35it's I think the I think it's lost now
32:37but the Democratic party had a moment
32:40for very important internal reform after
32:43its epic loss to Donald Trump uh the two
32:48a very disliked candidate as far as the
32:50polling is concerned so the Democratic
32:53party had an epic loss who was
32:55responsible for that epic loss the
32:57Democrats Democratic party was and its
32:59various structures its institution the
33:01Democrats are responsible for that epic
33:03EP epic La no
33:06question was those people telling the
33:09public the truth those people are not
33:11responsible people take the truth and
33:14they absorb it and they think about it
33:15and they do what they want with it and
33:17the reality is the American people so
33:20disliked uh what was being offered to
33:22them by the Democratic party that they
33:25decided that they preferred to it all up
33:29rather than have Hillary Clinton they
33:31decided they would throw the Trump
33:33grenade I I I I agree with that however
33:37I would note that the Trump campaign
33:39thought that Wikileaks was on their side
33:42now the idea that Mr Assan just
33:44suggested that Trump and Quint Clinton
33:47were equally dangerous two different
33:49deadly diseases I think is wildly and
33:52gruesomely uh mistaken Clinton
33:55represented a criminal establishment
33:58but Trump and the people he brought in
34:00with him make it worse make it even more
34:03criminal this idea that it was just a
34:05choice between the lesser of two evils
34:08well uh in politics in life you fight
34:11like hell to have good choices to have
34:13better choices in this case Sanders was
34:15a better alternative but once that is no
34:17longer possible then of course you
34:19choose uh the Lesser evil what do you
34:21want more evil more killing more
34:24pollution more abuse of immigrants more
34:27racism uh more impunity for corporations
34:30more Aid to death squads more spending
34:33for the military all of that is what you
34:35uh get with Trump in distinction to the
34:38bad the other bad things you would have
34:40gotten with uh uh W with Clinton and the
34:45uh the win of Clinton was not or I'm
34:48sorry the the victory of trump was not
34:51equally as bad as it would have been if
34:53Clinton had lost it's a catastrophe it's
34:56an utter catastrophe and those who are
34:59poorest those who are already most
35:01oppressed and most vulnerable are the
35:03ones who are suffering most as a result
35:05and we ain't seen nothing yet they're
35:07just getting started now with Gorsuch
35:09coming on uh the Supreme Court and with
35:12the possibility that the legislative
35:14filibuster in the Senate will be
35:16abolished as well as the Supreme Court
35:19filibuster if that happens that will
35:21give Trump and the radical uh Republican
35:24right who now control the Congress
35:26essentially absolute power the only
35:28thing standing in their way will be some
35:30federal judges which means that within
35:32the system there will be no blocking
35:34power there will be nothing to stop them
35:36in that case the only way to stop them
35:38will be from outside the federal system
35:41which means in the streets or from the
35:43systems of the states uh and localities
35:46uh we're in the midst of a right ring wi
35:48Revolution I agree that a lot of this
35:50discussion about uh Russia and leaks is
35:53uh uh is misguided a lot of it uh and
35:57it's diverting attention from two main
35:59facts one we're in the midst of a
36:01right-wing Revolution that must be
36:03stopped and reversed uh two uh the
36:06Democratic establishment discredited
36:08themselves and they have to be removed
36:10and replaced by the Democratic
36:12base uh Julian your response uh I'd like
36:16to also uh if you can talk about you've
36:19mentioned it numerous times the
36:21existence of the deep State uh and what
36:24the relationship of the deep state is to
36:26your perspective about what's going on
36:27right now in the United
36:29States well look up up until very
36:31recently uh and I guess we still have to
36:34see how it goes uh uh I I've been uh
36:38delighted by the conflict that has been
36:41occurring uh between the incoming
36:44Administration uh and between the
36:46security services Etc why is that
36:49because it it has shed light on both uh
36:52it is resulting in the courts uh
36:56throwing nues around the of the
36:57presidency and tying tying them down and
37:00I mean that's something that I predicted
37:02would happen and it is happening very
37:04rapidly the I the problem
37:08for uh Party politics in the United
37:11States is that the the Democrats have
37:13been in collapse uh for almost eight
37:15years uh at the council level at the
37:19state level and at the national level uh
37:21so the election of Donald Trump while
37:25he's unusual person psychologically and
37:27he Hillary Clinton was a particularly
37:28bad candidate uh is actually part of
37:32something that's much bigger uh and it's
37:35very interesting to think what that is
37:36because any um solution in terms of
37:39Party politics has to un has to
37:41understand why it is that the uh
37:44Democratic Machinery has uh seemingly
37:47been in inexorable collapse uh over the
37:50last eight years and you can perhaps say
37:54it it's to do with gross economic
37:56factors
37:59uh perhaps the professionalization uh of
38:02the democratic class where you have a
38:06revolving door of contractors and so on
38:07you can see this uh in our DNC leaks
38:11that you have
38:13um educated professionalized Democrats
38:16who have lifted off the working uh class
38:19base uh and who are then involved in a
38:22revolving door system becoming lobbyist
38:25going back into the DNC Etc uh if you
38:28read um the emails we published about
38:30John podesta you can see that this is
38:31not just simply something that happens
38:33this is an
38:35expectation uh within that community and
38:38anyone who doesn't uh engage in that
38:41expectation uh anyone who doesn't go
38:43into Private Industry and get a $400,000
38:45a year uh Consulting track contract as a
38:49local or foreign agent uh is viewed to
38:51be as a fool so you can only keep up
38:54that game for so long and it starts to
38:56turn people off and you start to lose
38:58the base and that's what happened uh in
39:01this particular run um but
39:05the I let me let me
39:08get comment iau Allan strongly I have a
39:12lot of respect for his work but I
39:13caution him strongly uh to not get swept
39:16up uh into
39:19what is an attempt by the by the
39:22Democratic party in this particular case
39:24but by the two parties to polarize the
39:26population in two- Party politics uh
39:29there's lots of interesting things that
39:31can come out of this Trump
39:33Administration we're seeing great
39:35horrors of course but we are seeing
39:37these interesting to the people who been
39:38killed and deported seeing we're seeing
39:41the conflict uh with the security
39:44services the Deep State uh now I've been
39:47writing well I've been writing about the
39:51Deep state for uh a
39:53decade using that word uh now Turkish
39:57emics have been writing about the
39:59equivalent in Turkey some Hungarian AC
40:02some Hungarian investigative journalists
40:04the same within Hungary and finally uh
40:07this word is now something in US
40:09politics uh it's it's not a New Concept
40:12it's you know essentially the military
40:13industrial complex plus lobbyists plus
40:16contractors plus people in the Senate
40:18intelligence committee ET Etc we just
40:21understand what that is we just have we
40:23just have 30 seconds Alan and I wanted
40:25to give you uh get you um a final
40:29comment the conflict between Trump and
40:32the intelligence and the Deep state is a
40:34spat not a struggle Trump has insulted
40:37them he has disrespected them so they're
40:40unhappy uh with that more importantly
40:43Trump wants them to change their tactics
40:44to become more crude and even more
40:46violent once they work together on a
40:48couple of new Wars they'll get along
40:50just
40:51fine well we're going to leave it there
40:53I want to thank you for joining us alen
40:55Aaron and Julian in our last 10 seconds
40:58you're coming up on five years in the
41:00embassy how are you doing in the
41:03ecuadoran embassy in
41:05London well last year uh I won an epic
41:08Victory against the uh UK government and
41:11the Swedish government at the UN formal
41:12ruling it's repeated uh in November
41:15those governments still have to obey the
41:17UN I'm been illegally detained and I
41:20should be free and compensated that's
41:21according to the UN

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