YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → FULL HEARING: Diane Downs Faces Oregon Parole Board a Fourth Time (10.29.25)

FULL HEARING: Diane Downs Faces Oregon Parole Board a Fourth Time (10.29.25) — Transcript

by 𝐃𝐈𝐀𝐍𝐄 𝐃𝐎𝐖𝐍𝐒 𝐓𝐕 · 43,856 words · 7,161 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00Good morning, Ms. Downs. Can you hear
0:02me?
0:03Yes, I can. Good morning. Okay, good. Um
0:06just First off, I just want to say thank
0:07you to you and everyone else for being
0:09patient this morning. We had some
0:10technical issues that we had to work
0:12out. Um
0:13you know, we're doing these hearings by
0:15a video. Obviously, sometimes we do run
0:17into technical issues. So, if we do have
0:19another technical issue, we'll we'll
0:21stop, we'll fix it. Um and then we'll
0:23we'll continue with the hearing. So,
0:24it's no cause for any concern or
0:26anything.
0:27All right. So, for the record, I need to
0:28confirm is your name Elizabeth Diane
0:31Downs?
0:33Yes, it is. Okay. And is your SID number
0:3606546106?
0:40Yes. Okay, good. I just have to make
0:42sure I'm talking to the right person
0:43this morning.
0:45Um so, Ms. Downs, my name is John
0:46Bailey. I'm the board chair and I'm
0:47going to be leading your hearing today.
0:50Um I want to just make sure to confirm
0:53that you received your packet of
0:54materials from the board and your notice
0:56of rights at least 14 days ago.
1:00I did. Okay, good.
1:02Um I do want to note for the record that
1:04live streaming or simulcasting of board
1:07hearings is prohibited.
1:09Anyone found to be live streaming or
1:11simulcasting a board hearing will be
1:14ejected from the hearing as being
1:15disruptive pursuant to OAR 255
1:190300026
1:23sub that we do have members uh from the
1:26media present today at today's hearing.
1:29Um Ms. Mayhew, I see you on the screen.
1:31I understand that you're representing
1:32Ms. Downs here this morning. Is that
1:33still correct?
1:35Uh uh yes, Ms. Bailey. Okay, thank you.
1:38So, Ms. Mayhew, I have reviewed an
1:40objection and a request to set over that
1:42was provided to me um sent by you um
1:45prior to the hearing. Uh the board has
1:47reviewed your request for a set over. Um
1:50we are denying that request. And I want
1:52to note that the media is present today
1:54consistent with Oregon law and the
1:57board's hearing procedures. Under Oregon
1:59law, the board does not have the legal
2:02authority to prohibit recording of the
2:04hearing by the media,
2:07only live streaming and simulcasting.
2:10Of course, should Ms. Downs decide not
2:12to participate in today's hearing, um
2:14the board would consider that a refusal
2:16to participate and then we would
2:18deliberate based off the written record.
2:20Is there anything else that you want to
2:22add to that?
2:24Um no. Um so, I'm just understanding
2:27that you have no way
2:29I'm just trying to understand the
2:30distinction between uh a news uh
2:34media company and somebody podcasting in
2:37terms of impact. Uh this this uh footage
2:40that they take, they can use,
2:41manipulate, edit, and disseminate in any
2:44way they can, including on the internet.
2:47Um and I do think it is a violation of
2:49petitioner's uh pri- you know, it it is
2:52prejudicial to her. Um and I you know, I
2:56do not believe I I want to object and
2:57put that on the record because um
3:01I I don't see the distinction. I I I
3:03understand that the law doesn't make
3:04that distinction as you've laid it out,
3:06but it's it's exceptionally prejudicial
3:08to her and for her other proceedings
3:11that are ongoing.
3:12All right. Well, thank you, Ms. Mayhew.
3:14Again, your your objection is noted for
3:15the record. Um I guess ultimately the
3:18question is are we proceeding today um
3:20given everything I've laid out um
3:23with that objection on the record?
3:25Um
3:26Diane, um
3:28are you willing to proceed knowing that
3:30they're going to be recording and using
3:31anything you say to do with this case?
3:33>> Yes.
3:34Okay. Yes. Yes.
3:36Okay. All right, thank you, Ms. Mayhew.
3:38Again, your your objections are noted
3:39for the record. Thank you. Thank you.
3:42All right. So, Ms. Downs, I do want to
3:43take a moment to introduce the other
3:45board members participating in your
3:46hearing today. Um first, to my right, we
3:49have board vice chairperson Ronnie
3:50Cleaver.
3:51Good morning, Ms. Downs.
3:54Morning. Uh to my left, we have board
3:56member Don Reese.
3:57Good morning, Ms. Downs. How are you?
4:00I'm fine, thank you. How are you? Good,
4:02thank you. Uh we also have board member
4:04Cara Brooks here this morning. Good
4:06morning.
4:08Good morning. And we have board member
4:09Kelly Kicklinski. Good morning.
4:13Good morning. I do want to note that we
4:15do have um some uh parole board staff.
4:18Um first off, we have a parole board
4:20staff member that's here with us just
4:22making sure that all of our equipment's
4:23running properly and everything's
4:25working okay. We also have some board
4:27staff who are observing the hearing um
4:29online for educational purposes.
4:32Um we also have present via phone your
4:35brother um James Frederickson.
4:38Um Mr. Frederickson, I didn't have a
4:41note. Were you interested in making a
4:42statement to the board today in support
4:44of Ms. Downs?
4:47Um no, I submitted a letter to the board
4:50with my statement.
4:52Okay. And we have reviewed that letter.
4:54We've received it. We've all read it.
4:56So, um
4:57thank you for letting me know. I
4:58appreciate that.
5:01You're welcome.
5:02All right. We also have present via
5:04video from the Lane County District
5:06Attorney's Office, Lane County Deputy
5:09District Attorneys Jo Ann Miller and
5:11Eric uh Knapp.
5:13Um good morning to both of you. I just
5:15want to confirm that you're with us.
5:18Here. Here. Present.
5:20Okay. And was it uh
5:22which one of you was interested in
5:24providing a statement to the board later
5:26today?
5:29I provided a statement. Uh the written
5:30statement that she provided
5:33that she gave on October 2nd, 2025.
5:38Okay. And for some reason, um
5:40I think Ms. I think that was Ms. Miller.
5:42Ms. Miller, I'm having a really hard
5:44time hearing you over here. Um
5:47I don't know if that
5:47>> Let's turn this up and see if that
5:49helps. Can you hear me now?
5:50>> I can hear you much better now. Yes,
5:52thank you. Can you please repeat what
5:53you said?
5:54Excellent. We submitted a statement from
5:56the Lane County District Attorney's
5:57Office and that is dated October 2nd,
6:002025.
6:02You should have that in your possession
6:03and that is
6:04a statement and
6:05Okay, great. So, and so you your office
6:07is not going to provide an oral
6:08statement today for today either. Is
6:11that correct then?
6:13Yeah, that's correct. With that that
6:15written statement is is the statement
6:17from our office and
6:19should something come up with the course
6:21of this hearing,
6:24let you know. We understand that
6:26statements are limited to to
6:28don't have statements from
6:30family. Okay. So, Ms. Miller, then what
6:33I'll do is I will check in with you just
6:35later on towards the end of the hearing
6:36just in case there's anything else you
6:37want to add. You absolutely do not have
6:39to, of course. It's just I'll I'll make
6:41sure that you have that opportunity at
6:42least.
6:44Um and again, we have reviewed your
6:45statement. We've all read it. Um so,
6:48thank you for for providing that.
6:51Very good, thank you.
6:52Uh of course. And then lastly, I just
6:54want to note I my understanding is we
6:55might have one or so members of the
6:57public observing today's hearing by via
7:00audio feeds.
7:01All right. So, Ms. Downs, do you have
7:04any questions about who's present for
7:05today's hearing?
7:08No.
7:08Okay. Um I do want to note um that this
7:12is the time that is set for your parole
7:14consideration hearing, which is a
7:16hearing to decide whether the board
7:17finds that you are no longer dangerous
7:20or finds that you remain dangerous, but
7:22you can be adequately controlled with
7:24supervision and treatment, or finds that
7:26you are dangerous and will defer your
7:28parole consideration date.
7:29We have received from the Department of
7:31Corrections an institutional report
7:33that's in your packet that was dated
7:34August 5th, 2025.
7:37That was prepared by a B, I think Chin
7:40is how you pronounce that name.
7:42It was forwarded to the board by
7:44Director Michael Reese. Have you
7:46reviewed that report?
7:48Yes, I have. Okay, thank you.
7:50Um are there any factual issues in the
7:53report that you want to bring to our
7:54attention? You know, we might be asking
7:56you questions about it later on, but I
7:57just want to make sure there's no
7:58obvious factual issues that you want to
8:01let us know about.
8:03Um no, nothing that I can think of
8:06offhand. If it comes up, we'll talk
8:08about it. I will
8:10say, "Hey, this is a problem."
8:13Okay. All right. Well, great. Thank you
8:14very much. And then of course, the board
8:16ordered and you participated in a
8:18psychological evaluation for today's
8:20hearing. That was prepared by a Dr.
8:21Alexander Milkie and dated June 10th,
8:242025. There was also an addendum to the
8:27report authored by Dr. Alexander Milkie
8:29and dated September 14th, 2025. Did you
8:33read those reports?
8:35Uh
8:37I think I only received one.
8:40They were both in your hearings packet.
8:43Oh, yes, I did. Yes.
8:45It all came at the same time. That's why
8:47it confused me. Sorry. Yeah, no no
8:49problem. Glad to um make sure that you
8:51had everything that we expected you to
8:53have.
8:54Yeah. All right. And of course, we will
8:55be talking about those reports a little
8:57bit later on in today's hearing.
9:00So, next thing I want to talk about the
9:01total exhibits that we've accepted into
9:03the record. First, we have the materials
9:05that were submitted by the parole board.
9:07These are the materials that were in
9:08your hearings packet that totaled 508
9:10pages that were sent to you at least 14
9:12days prior to today's hearing. Ms.
9:14Downs, no confidential documents have
9:16been received or reviewed relative to
9:18your case prior to today's hearing. So,
9:20what that just means is everything that
9:22we have, you have. You We don't have
9:24something that you don't.
9:26All right. We received the following
9:27additional documents into the record for
9:29your case. One was a letter from your
9:31brother, James Frederickson, that was
9:33dated October 12th, 2025.
9:35We received a packet of letters of
9:37support that were provided by you
9:39totaling 22 pages. That packet was
9:41received by the board on September 30th,
9:432025.
9:45We also received a six-page packet of
9:47materials containing a letter authored
9:49by you entitled request to be released
9:52from custody with supporting documents.
9:54That was received by the board on
9:55October 6th, 2025.
9:58We received a five-page letter submitted
10:00by the Lane County District Attorney's
10:01Office dated October 2nd, 2025. And
10:04lastly, we received a packet of letters
10:07of support and additional packet of
10:09letters of supports that was provided by
10:10you totaling six pages. The board
10:13received that packet on October 16th,
10:152025.
10:17I think I got everything there. You
10:18think is there anything that you think
10:19I'm missing?
10:21I think that's it. Okay.
10:23Um so, with that said, all of those
10:25exhibits have been accepted to the
10:26record. The board, all five of us board
10:28members, have read all of those
10:29documents prior to today's hearing.
10:33And the last thing I want to cover, Ms.
10:34Downs, is just how the hearing is going
10:36to go. What it's kind of going to look
10:37like this morning.
10:38Um so, the first thing that's going to
10:40happen is either you or your attorney um
10:42will have the opportunity to make an
10:44opening statement. That's of course
10:45completely optional. It's up to you and
10:47your counsel whether or not you want to
10:49use that time.
10:50Um after an open any opening statement
10:52is provided, then we will start asking
10:54you questions on a variety of topics.
10:56And I'm going to start off by asking
10:58questions.
10:59Um and I will then turn it over to other
11:02board members to ask you questions on
11:04the topic that we're on before we move
11:05on to the next topic. Now, why we try
11:07and keep things kind of topic by topic
11:09by topic.
11:11Um so, the types of things that we're
11:12going to cover are things like your
11:14institutional spending account, your
11:16programming and reformation activities,
11:18your employment and educational history,
11:21the psychological evaluation, your
11:23health, your disciplinary history, your
11:25criminal history, including the crime
11:27for which you've been incarcerated for,
11:29your release plan if you were to be
11:30paroled, and we will also cover any
11:32other kind of remaining topics or
11:34questions that any of the board members
11:35also have.
11:38Again, I will periodically check in with
11:39other board members just to see what
11:40questions they have for you.
11:42Um and then after that, we will hear
11:44from representatives from the Lane
11:46County District Attorney's Office if
11:47they want to provide an additional
11:49statement.
11:50Um
11:51then you will have the opportunity to
11:53make any closing comments or statements
11:55before we end today's hearing.
11:58I do want to note the board will not be
11:59deliberating your case today. Instead,
12:02we will deliberate at a later time and
12:03will send you a written order stating
12:05the decision.
12:07Um you know, it's highly likely that
12:09we'll take at least one break for today.
12:11You know, I generally like to try and go
12:12for a couple hours before we take a
12:14break, but Ms. Downs, it is absolutely
12:16fine to let me know if you need to take
12:18a break.
12:19Um and if so, we'll try and time it to
12:20meet your needs as well as the board's
12:22needs.
12:24And then lastly, I just have a few
12:26expectations I want to cover for the
12:28hearing. So, the very first thing I want
12:29to cover is since your last hearing,
12:31this is new. This is not something we've
12:33done historically
12:35um until uh I think maybe a year or two
12:37after your last hearing.
12:39The board has updated our procedures for
12:42when we are referring to victims who
12:44were minors at the time of the offense.
12:46And obviously, all three of your victims
12:48were minors at the time of the offense.
12:51So, our new policy and procedure is that
12:54we refer to those individuals using
12:56their initials.
12:57Um I know that this is new for you, but
12:59we ask that you try and do the same. Um
13:02we do that in order to try and protect
13:04minor victims.
13:05So, for the purposes of today's hearing,
13:08we will be referring to your daughter
13:10who was murdered as CLD,
13:13and for your children who survived the
13:15offense, we will refer to them as CAD,
13:19and your son SDD.
13:24Do you have any questions about that?
13:27No. Okay.
13:29Um when we do ask you a question, we are
13:31going to ensure that you give uh that we
13:33give you the full time to answer the
13:35question, and we're going to try really
13:36hard not to interrupt you so that you
13:38can answer the question we've asked you.
13:40Um I do want to note that it is possible
13:42while we try not to interrupt you, um it
13:45is possible that myself or another board
13:46member, we might end up feeling like we
13:48have to do so if we feel like we're
13:49getting so far off track, we're going to
13:51try and bring you back to answer the
13:52question. So, just know that.
13:54Um you're going to also see myself and
13:55other board members, of course, taking
13:57notes during today's hearing because
13:59we're deliberating at a later time, we
14:00just want to make sure that we are
14:02capturing the conversations that we're
14:03having and having, you know, writing
14:05down the notes that we feel like we need
14:06to write down for us to remember what we
14:08need to remember.
14:09So, if you see us taking notes, we're
14:11paying attention to you, we're
14:12listening. Um
14:14so, don't don't let that think that
14:15we're not paying attention to what
14:16you're saying.
14:18If at any
14:19>> Ditto.
14:20I'm doing the same thing for my family,
14:22so same thing here. Okay. I am
14:24listening. All right. If at any point
14:27you do not understand a question we have
14:28asked, please let us know.
14:31Similarly, if there is something we say
14:33that is not accurate, then please let us
14:35know so I can ensure I have accurately
14:37reflected your answers.
14:40It is possible that we may re-ask a
14:42question of you if we feel like we need
14:44additional information.
14:46Um and lastly, the most important thing
14:48is, you know, we're all here to hear
14:49from you today. We all have questions
14:51that we've prepared to ask you.
14:53Um we've not made up our mind on what to
14:55do after today, and that's why we're
14:57here for the hearing. So, we're going to
14:58keep an open mind as we talk with you
15:00this morning and listen to what you have
15:02to say today answer to the questions
15:03that we ask you.
15:06Do you have any questions about how
15:07we're going to proceed today?
15:10I No, that was very clear. I only have
15:13one question. My mom it is anxious for
15:17me to get home, and so I need to be able
15:19to tell her when I leave when you'll
15:21have a decision. Do you have any
15:23ballpark of when you'll have a decision?
15:26So, I can tell you that we always uh
15:28endeavor to get decisions to AICs within
15:3130 days of the hearing. With that said,
15:35we try as hard as we can to get
15:37decisions as quickly as we can. At the
15:40same time,
15:41we're going to give a decision as long
15:43as it takes to make the right decision.
15:44We're not going to rush to try to make a
15:46decision.
15:47Um we want to give it the time that it
15:49needs. So, so we try and balance that.
15:51We're going to make sure that we give it
15:53the time it needs, but we also know that
15:54you're waiting, and we're going to try
15:55and get you an answer as quickly as we
15:57can.
15:59Thank you. No problem.
16:01All right. So, with that said, I think
16:03are you ready to proceed?
16:05I'm ready. Okay. So, uh Ms. Mayhew and
16:08Ms. Downs, I don't know which one of you
16:09if if either one of you are interested
16:11in making an opening today, so I'll just
16:13turn it over the floor to the two of you
16:15to see how y'all would handle that.
16:17Uh Mr. Bailey, sorry. I was under the
16:18impression I could make a closing
16:20statement, and so that's what I'm
16:22intending to do. Um and I'm sure maybe
16:25Diane will have some words to get going.
16:27Do you want to say something or do you
16:29want to just get elected dive into the
16:30questions? Let's just dive into the
16:32questions. I'm ready. I
16:35It's been 41 and a half years, and
16:39my family is anxious for this to be over
16:42so I can get home, and so um
16:45I
16:47You You guys are here to ask me
16:48questions, so let's do this. I'm ready.
16:50Okay. All right.
16:52Well, then we will do so, and I'm going
16:53to start, Ms. Downs, by asking you
16:55questions about your financial situation
16:58as well as your education and
17:00employment. We're going to cover those
17:01two topics together.
17:03Um and my first question, I'm just
17:04curious, how much money do you have
17:06saved in total both inside the
17:08institution and outside the institution?
17:12My
17:14My prison account right now says
17:18$250,
17:19I think.
17:21And I have no outside account. No No No
17:25bank account.
17:27Okay.
17:29You know, I noticed in your materials
17:31that you wrote to us that you think you
17:33have
17:35a lump sum of $155,000
17:38available to you upon release. I I just
17:41was curious to help me understand why
17:42you thought that and where that's coming
17:44from.
17:45No. I I I do not have a lump sum
17:48anywhere.
17:49With uh it was about a month ago, one of
17:53the inmates here was getting ready to
17:55parole, and the uh parole agent came to
17:59visit him
18:00and brought an application for
18:02supplemental security income, SSI.
18:05And
18:07Nathan did not know anything about SSI
18:09and asked what this was about, and the
18:11parole agent explained that this is um a
18:16financial stipend that they give to
18:19parolees who are over the age of 65 who
18:22have spent a considerable amount of time
18:24in prison and and to help them because
18:28even though we believe that we are
18:30employable, and I can work at Walmart as
18:33a greeter if that's what it takes, but
18:37that doesn't mean people are going to
18:38hire us because of our advanced years.
18:41And so
18:43uh social security doesn't want us to be
18:46homeless on the street, and so it is a
18:49stipend that allows us to be able to get
18:52food, and
18:54Nathan said that the parole agent told
18:57him that the monthly that it would be a
19:01$310 a month
19:04compensation for every year that he was
19:06in prison.
19:07He came and told me that. I don't know
19:10that to be true or not. My brother can't
19:11find anything on the internet about
19:13that. He has looked, so either Nathan
19:17made it up,
19:18which I don't know why he would, or the
19:21parole agent knows something that we
19:23don't know that
19:25when you find me suitable, the parole
19:28agent will come here and give me the
19:30same papers, and then I will know. But
19:31no, there is no money waiting for me.
19:34No money waiting. Okay. All right. That
19:37That helps. Thank you for clarifying
19:39that for me.
19:40Um and then can Can you just clarify for
19:42the board um what you're currently doing
19:45for employment right now?
19:48Right now, I am a porter in the prison.
19:51I've done almost every job conceivable
19:54in the prison. I've
19:56um
19:57I've done everything. I've been a
19:58porter, I've been a clerk, I've been a
20:01carpenter, a painter.
20:03Uh I've done everything but weld in
20:05prison. I've been a pipefitter, I've
20:06been a ditch digger, and I'm talking a
20:0810-ft deep, 5-ft wide
20:12ditch for laying big old 1-ft pipes for
20:15like Caltrans. I've done all the above.
20:18So, right now I am a porter. I am
20:20considered retired because of my age.
20:23And that's a retirement job in prison.
20:28Okay. All right. Well, thank you, Ms.
20:29Downs. Those are the questions that I
20:30have for you on your spending and your
20:32employment and education. Let me see
20:34what questions the other board members
20:36have for you on those topics. I'll start
20:38with Ms. Cleaver.
20:39Thank you. Good morning, Ms. Downs. Um
20:42do you have any folks or people on the
20:44outside who
20:46contribute money to your uh spending
20:49account?
20:51I My mom sends me an allowance every
20:55month.
20:56I I am the oldest living woman on the
20:58planet who still gets an allowance from
21:00her mom.
21:01How much does she send you every month?
21:05Uh she used to send me every month, but
21:07now that I'm getting ready to go home,
21:09uh she sends me an allowance of about
21:12$300 every or 400 400 dollars every
21:16three or four months.
21:19Okay.
21:21And is she the only contributor to your
21:24account?
21:25Yes.
21:28Okay.
21:31And then what are you
21:33So, you said you're retired.
21:36Is that So, how What does your work week
21:39look like at this point?
21:42I work third watch. I
21:46From 2:00 to 9:00 I work for the prison.
21:50And from 6:00 in the morning until 2:00
21:53I take care of everybody else in the
21:55unit on a volunteer basis. I do laundry
21:58when they have to go to work.
22:00Um I clean, I help the the other porters
22:03clean. I unload supplies.
22:07Um I
22:10I just stay I work in the garden. I I
22:13stay I'm a fire sign, Malio, so I stay
22:16busy from 6:00 in the morning until 9:00
22:18at night. I just stay busy taking care
22:20of whatever needs to be taken care of in
22:22the unit. Okay.
22:24Uh so, just so I I just want to make
22:26sure I understand. So, your paid
22:28position is from 2:00 to 9:00. And is
22:31that 5 days a week or how many days a
22:33week?
22:35>> 5 days a week, 2:00 to 9:00. I make 16
22:38cents an hour, so my paycheck is about
22:40$20 a month. Okay. And then the other
22:44duties that you talked about, that's
22:45more of a volunteer thing that you do to
22:48assist other AICs?
22:51Yes. Yes, they they have to work during
22:53second watch, which is 6:00 to 2:00, and
22:57there's only so many laundry slots, for
22:59instance, so many laundry slots, and so
23:02their laundry might need to be cleaned
23:03during while they're at work, so I
23:05volunteered to do their laundry for
23:07them. Okay.
23:09Um
23:13I don't have any other questions. Thank
23:14you. All right, thank you. Um Ms.
23:17Brooks.
23:18I don't have any questions on these
23:19topics.
23:21Okay, Mr. Reese? No questions. And Ms.
23:24Kuklinski?
23:25Um I thought I had read in your
23:27materials that that you had indicated
23:29that you had
23:31I thought I read one place that you had
23:33$1,500 saved up and another place that
23:35you thought you had around $3,000 saved
23:37up. Is that
23:40You don't have anything such as that?
23:44I No, and I don't I don't know where he
23:47would have read that. I didn't I
23:49reviewed all the material recently, and
23:51I don't remember reading anything like
23:53that.
23:59Yeah, I was trying to
24:02look to see where
24:04I'll have to look to see where I wrote I
24:07wrote both of those down. Um so, I will
24:10look to see if I can find that. Um
24:13but that was the the only follow-up
24:15question I had. Thank you.
24:18Thank you, Ms. Kuklinski.
24:20All right. So, let's turn to your
24:22health, Ms. Downs. I'm just curious, how
24:24is your physical health today?
24:27My health is great. I had a full knee
24:29replacement a year and a half ago, and
24:33I'm good. I'm on no medications.
24:36Um
24:38I I run from I stay busy from 6:00 to
24:429:00. I I just stay busy. I'm
24:45overweight.
24:46I like sugar.
24:49That's it.
24:51That's it.
24:53It's pretty unusual for us to talk to
24:56someone who doesn't have any medications
24:58that they take. That's actually kind of
24:59unusual for us. I'm curious, you know,
25:01why do you think that is?
25:04I think genetics, really. For real,
25:07genetics. I also I've never done drugs,
25:09and so I don't I didn't break down my
25:11body. Uh I get injured cuz I work hard.
25:15I used to when I was younger, so I
25:17needed a full knee replacement. But
25:20past that, I don't have high blood
25:22pressure, I don't have diabetes. They
25:25tested me.
25:26I don't have
25:28um
25:29hep C. I I didn't I
25:33didn't have that kind of a risky
25:34behavior. So, I don't know. I They Oh,
25:38trust me, they test us all the time for
25:40these things.
25:41And I have none of the above.
25:45And how is your mental health today?
25:49Mental health? Um great. I
25:52have I'm under no mental health care.
25:55I've tried.
25:56They say that they don't have the staff
25:59available to take care of mentally
26:00healthy people, just to listen to us.
26:03So,
26:05mental health is good.
26:06Um
26:07I'm in a great mood.
26:10So.
26:13Okay.
26:15All right, thank you very much. I think
26:16that covers the questions I have for you
26:17on health. Um Ms. Cleaver, any
26:19questions? I don't have any questions.
26:21Thank you. Okay. And uh Ms. Brooks?
26:28Um
26:31No, I don't have any questions in this
26:34in these areas. All right, Mr. Reese? No
26:37questions. And Ms. Kuklinski?
26:39Um Ms. Downs, uh you had done some work
26:42a number of years ago with Dr. Soji
26:44Shoji and Dr. Rossi. Um how did you I
26:48guess get connected with those services
26:51if if uh they don't typically kind of
26:54like you indicated meet with mentally
26:56healthy individuals?
26:58Exactly.
26:59Uh Dr. Rossi, uh years ago back in 2010,
27:04I worked with the captain on my yard and
27:07the associate warden and Dr. Rossi, who
27:12is a geriatric psychiatrist, and I
27:14worked with them to open an old lady
27:16unit for for the elderly, for 55 and
27:19older. So, I moved into the unit. We
27:22opened the unit, I moved into the unit.
27:24We worked together to build a program
27:28for the elderly women, crocheting,
27:31jigsaw puzzles, things like that. And
27:33so, I worked with Dr. Rossi on in that
27:36relationship. So, that's how she got to
27:38know me. Her office was inside of our
27:41unit, so she was there during her
27:44working hours, and so she saw me on a
27:46regular basis simply because I lived
27:48there. She saw how I conducted myself,
27:51behaved with the other inmates, and with
27:54the staff on a daily basis, 5 days a
27:57week. Uh Dr. Shoji was her
28:01uh associate, and I
28:04told Dr. Rossi that the board wanted me
28:07to have psychological counseling,
28:10and or at least attempt to get
28:12psychological counseling, and I had been
28:14trying for years, and so she asked Dr.
28:16Rossi if she I mean uh Dr. Shoji Dr.
28:20Rossi asked Dr. Shoji if she would meet
28:23with me on a weekly basis, and so it was
28:26more as a courtesy for her friend that
28:28she took me into her
28:30uh client list, and she saw me at first
28:33on a weekly basis, and then on a monthly
28:36basis, and until we transferred we left
28:39that prison to come to this prison, and
28:41that's when I stopped seeing them.
28:43Okay, thank you.
28:45You're welcome.
28:47All right. Um so, Ms. Downs, I want to
28:50turn to your programming.
28:53Um so, Ms. Downs, I don't know if you
28:54recall, it's been a while, but I'm I'm
28:56the only board member up here that's
28:58actually talked to you before and asked
28:59you questions before, and so um
29:03I don't have very many questions on this
29:05area because I I I remember having a lot
29:08of conversation about this last time.
29:09So, my questions on this topic are
29:12really kind of since we last saw you,
29:14what you've been up to. So, I am
29:16curious, what what programs have you
29:18engaged in since your last hearing
29:20before the board?
29:22In the past 5 years, um
29:25you remember that I took a program that
29:28I was involved in a program called LTOP,
29:30L T O P P. It was a long-termer's
29:32program. Um we took classes about anger
29:37management, uh victim impact, things
29:40like that.
29:42Well, about two
29:44three years ago,
29:47um maybe 4 years ago, they started
29:49something in this prison called CBT,
29:53cognitive behavioral treatment.
29:56Basically, it is L Top 2.0. It's exactly
30:00the same They use the exact same
30:01programs. So, I kind of got a refresher
30:03course,
30:05but it was more than that. It was
30:07because I had been through it and I knew
30:10what to expect, it gave me more insight
30:14because I wasn't just going in blind and
30:16stumbling around in the dark. I
30:18understood the end goal of what we were
30:21hoping to learn about ourselves and
30:23about each other because it's not just
30:26all about, you know, you You might think
30:28you know what you know about you, but
30:29until you hear the story from somebody
30:31else,
30:32you can relate to, oh, I get that. I get
30:34that. I never noticed that about myself
30:36before. So, I basically took L Top
30:39twice. So, so,
30:42uh there was that.
30:43Um
30:45Let's see. And then, just working. I
30:47worked for canteen. I worked as a
30:49porter.
30:51Um
30:51I volunteer. I just volunteer my time. I
30:54crochet.
30:55Um we crochet blankets, beanies, scarves
30:58for the veterans hospital and for uh
31:02underprivileged children.
31:04And that's basically has taken up all my
31:06time.
31:09Okay.
31:10Um
31:13I think that covers the question I have
31:14for you on the topic, then. Thank you
31:16very much. Uh Miss Cleaver, any
31:17questions about programming?
31:19Um I I just have a couple questions. So,
31:22I just want to make sure I understand.
31:24So, since you saw the board in 2020,
31:29the only
31:30official programming has been the CBT
31:33course?
31:35Well, no, there are other
31:37groups that we take inside the unit. Um
31:40Prison of Peace I took Prison of Peace.
31:42This is a a group inside the unit
31:45sponsored by staff. As opposed CBT is
31:48something that's sponsored by um
31:51outside agencies that come in. They're
31:53federally supported. You guys have
31:55something like that in Oregon, but they
31:56don't call it CBT. They call it
31:57something else, but it's the same If you
32:00uh if other inmates have talked about
32:02it, you know what the program is. I
32:04can't remember there's what you guys
32:05call it.
32:06But, so that is the official program
32:08that I took. The
32:11less official is sponsored by staff, by
32:13captains and by lieutenants here. They
32:16teach They um sponsor classes like
32:20Prison of Peace, which is
32:22it's how to
32:24um
32:25work with and counsel other inmates if
32:29they are having problems in their rooms
32:31and they can't get along if they don't
32:33see the whole picture because they're so
32:35focused on their anger or they're
32:37focused on winning a battle that we
32:41learn how to counsel them so that it's
32:43not all about just winning a battle.
32:45It's about looking at the whole picture,
32:47seeing it from somebody else's point of
32:48view,
32:49but you putting yourself in their shoes.
32:51And so, that was another class that I
32:54took. Um in in the class it was
32:56sponsored in the unit that was sponsored
32:58by staff.
33:01Okay. And these are when you see they're
33:04um
33:06that they're arranged and led by
33:09staff. So, are these informal sort of
33:12groups that they get together or is
33:14there a curriculum that is used?
33:18There are curriculums and it goes on for
33:21weeks. These are
33:23uh Prison of Peace that I was just
33:25speaking of is actually a 12-week course
33:28and um
33:30it it's quite intensive. There is a
33:32class. You sit in the class. There is a
33:34curriculum. There are questionnaires to
33:36fill out. There are questions we we test
33:39each other and we
33:41um have groups where we have uh we have
33:44mock uh mock hearings or or sessions
33:47with people. We come in with a
33:50fabricated problem that that we've had
33:52or maybe it's been a real problem that
33:54somebody's really had in their room. And
33:55so, we as a group would get together and
33:58and discuss the best ways to deal with
34:00that situation.
34:01So, yeah, it's it's an intensive course.
34:04It's just that staff monitor it and they
34:07sign off on it because you don't just
34:09get to get a chrono. You guys I don't
34:12don't know if you know what a chrono is.
34:13It's it's a formal It's
34:16Yeah, send you many. You don't The staff
34:17just doesn't sign off a chrono say
34:19because
34:20for no reason. You have to attend these
34:22classes. And if you miss one class,
34:24you're out. You're out. You don't get to
34:26be part of it again. Oh, okay. Wait. So,
34:29I just want to make sure I understand.
34:30These are required as a part of living
34:33in the unit or once you decide you're
34:36going to do it, it's required. Is that
34:38what you're saying?
34:40Not required. It's if you choose Yeah,
34:42if you choose to take the group, you
34:45have to attend every session.
34:46>> Okay. If you don't, then you become a
34:49drag on the whole unit. So, you just
34:50don't get to come back anymore. Okay.
34:52>> There are no requirements for the honor
34:54dorm, but the people who are in the
34:57honor dorm want to make changes in their
34:59life. They want to become better people
35:01than they were when they came to prison.
35:03And so, we have these We bring these
35:05groups into our unit
35:07because we don't want to have to wait to
35:10go to visiting whenever free staff or
35:13visitors can come and see us. We want to
35:15learn on a daily basis. So, there's
35:18almost every day there is a group
35:20happening in our unit
35:21um that you can participate in.
35:24Okay. When you say we, are you talking
35:28about Do you Are you talking about
35:30corrections staff? Are you talking about
35:33AICs? What do you mean when you say we?
35:36We is AICs. Okay. And the staff are on
35:40board because they like It makes their
35:43unit The fact that we are learning to be
35:45better people, that we are learning to
35:48not use anger or not use manipulation,
35:52that they are on board because it makes
35:54their job easier. They get to come to
35:55work and get a paycheck and not have to
35:57worry about pepper spraying anybody.
35:59Okay.
36:00Are there any other uh
36:03of these classes or um
36:06programs that you've done in the unit
36:08over the last 5 years that you think
36:11the board should know about or
36:13consequential to you?
36:15Um
36:17No.
36:19You You have the chronos because you
36:20have access to my files. So, you you
36:22have the chronos, but those are the ones
36:25I think that made the most impact.
36:27There's one and for the life of me I
36:28can't remember what it's called. I think
36:29it's called life scripting. And that is
36:32the one where you go back to your
36:33earliest memories and you think about
36:35what your life was like at that time.
36:38And during the first 3 years of your
36:40life, your life is impacted a certain
36:42way. And then, the next 3 years, it's
36:44impacted. In the first 3 years, you're
36:46completely dependent on somebody else to
36:48take care of you. Who were those people
36:50and how were you treated? Because that
36:52is the foundation of who you become.
36:55If you are neglected and and left in
36:58dirty diapers and stuff like that, you
37:00will always
37:01feel a need to
37:04to look for something that's not there.
37:07You You will always feel like you're not
37:08loved, not wanted, not not And even when
37:11you finally meet people who love you,
37:13there's still that core foundation of
37:17unconscious need to feel loved. And that
37:22was an incredibly impactful class and
37:26very extensive, but it was before the
37:28past 5 years. It was prior to that. It
37:30was a class that I took um
37:32probably 8 years ago.
37:35So.
37:36Okay.
37:401 minute.
37:44So, let let me ask you this. I'm going
37:45to follow up on what you've just told
37:47me. So,
37:49when you're talk when you're describing
37:50life scripting, you're talking about
37:53generalizations of what people can
37:55learn.
37:57Specifically,
37:59what did you learn about yourself during
38:02that process?
38:04Well, I learned that I was when I was
38:08growing up, I was loved. I was loved by
38:11everybody, but I was also sheltered. I
38:13didn't have There was no trauma in my
38:15family. And so, we didn't We didn't know
38:19how to deal with trauma.
38:21When I
38:22And that was my whole life. We literally
38:25lived in a house that had bars on the
38:26windows to protect us from the people on
38:29the outside. And even though I didn't
38:31think anything of it except we were the
38:32only house in the neighborhood. I And I
38:34thought, oh, that's kind of cool. But,
38:37as I grew up, unconsciously what I came
38:39to realize is that I felt like the
38:42outside world wasn't really safe.
38:45But, my inside, my family was safe. And
38:47that was the only thing that was safe.
38:49So, then when I grew up and I married an
38:50abuser, I did not know how to deal with
38:53that. The man was just plain mean. And I
38:56I had no
38:58My mom and dad never yelled at us. They
39:01weren't mean to us. And so, I didn't
39:03know how to deal. My parents never
39:04struck each other. They never even had
39:06an argument. The biggest argument they
39:08ever had was uh when I turned 18 and I
39:11was still living at home and I wanted to
39:13stay out till midnight and my dad said,
39:16"No. Not while you're living in my
39:18house. You'll be in by 10." And the
39:21biggest argument my parents had, they
39:22went behind closed doors and my mom
39:24said, "Wes, you're wrong. She's an
39:26adult." That was their whole argument.
39:28That was the whole thing. So, when I got
39:30married a few months later and my
39:32husband turned out to be a batterer,
39:35I did not know how to deal with that. He
39:38trained me to deal with violence. And
39:43so, but my but my training for my whole
39:47life was to treat people with respect
39:51and trust.
39:52So, there you go. So, when I met a man
39:55on the road and he was flagging me down,
39:58I stopped. I trusted. And when he turned
40:01on my family, I went into Steve mode. I
40:03went into my training as a battered
40:07woman. And
40:09there you go. So, that's what I learned
40:11about myself is that
40:13why would I stop for somebody on the
40:16road that I don't know? Because my whole
40:18life, I my whole training from the time
40:20I was an infant until I was 18, my
40:23training was to trust and respect.
40:26Nobody had ever been mean to me. Why
40:28would I expect anybody to be mean to me?
40:30The only person who was ever mean to me
40:31was my ex-husband. But then when he
40:35turned on us and attacked us, I
40:38instantly knew to battle with him
40:40because that's what Steve had taught me.
40:43I did not understand any of that until
40:46that class.
40:49It was insightful for me. For me.
40:54Okay.
40:55Um
40:58I I'm just taking some notes and I do
41:00have follow-up questions.
41:03So, um okay, that that's interesting. It
41:06sounds like it was an interesting class
41:09for you.
41:10I guess um
41:13you know, in in your narrative regarding
41:16your
41:18childhood and your years living at home,
41:22you say that you were just saying how
41:24you felt loved and sheltered and there
41:26was no trauma.
41:28Um and I I guess I'm confused because
41:30there are there are reports where you
41:32say that your father sexually abused you
41:36and then you later recant those claims.
41:40So,
41:41I I what is that? I mean, did your
41:44father sexually abuse you? And if he did
41:47not, why did you tell people he had? So,
41:51can you talk about how this fits into
41:53the life scripting work that you did?
41:56I can.
41:58My dad did not abuse me. He did not
42:00abuse anybody in my family.
42:03When my husband When my husband and I
42:06divorced,
42:09after I was in Oregon, my children
42:12and my children were shot. My husband my
42:15ex-husband came to Oregon. He knew that
42:18the only way that he would have
42:21hooks in me is if he had custody of the
42:24kids.
42:25He said, "I want my children to come
42:28home with me to Arizona."
42:30That would force me to go back to
42:32Arizona because he knew I would follow
42:34them.
42:35The The The detectives at that time
42:38said, "No, they have grandparents here
42:39in Oregon and they need medical
42:41attention. So, if anybody gets custody,
42:43it will be the grandparents."
42:45Steve lied in order to diminish their
42:49ability to
42:51take custody and said, "Oh, well, you
42:54can't do that. Diane's dad
42:57is
42:58a molester."
43:00I did not know that Steve said this
43:02until
43:03June It was probably the middle of June.
43:06The shooting was in May. So, a month
43:08later, my attorney said, "Susan Staffle
43:11of Children's Services wants to talk to
43:13you about the molestation." And I said,
43:16"What molestation?" He said Steve said
43:20to Susan Staffle that you were molested.
43:22I said, "I was not."
43:24He says, "Well, you're going to have to
43:26address that." And I said, "That's easy.
43:27It didn't happen." He said, "You can't
43:30just tell Susan Staffle you weren't
43:32molested because then it sounds like I
43:35didn't have a gun. I didn't do the
43:37shooting. I didn't get molested. I
43:39didn't didn't
43:41You have to admit something. That way
43:44when you say, 'I didn't,' then you're a
43:46little more believable." I said, "But
43:48none of it is true. I didn't have a gun.
43:51I didn't shoot my children. I love my
43:54children and I wasn't molested."
43:57He goes, "I'm not going to let you tell
43:59her that. You have to
44:01admit that you were." I said, "But it's
44:04a lie." So, Susan Staffle So, and then
44:07he put me in the room with Susan Staffle
44:08and she goes, "So, I want to talk about
44:10the the fact that your dad molested
44:12you."
44:13I said nothing. She goes, "So, what do
44:16you have to say about it?" I said
44:18nothing.
44:20He would not let me. Then he put me on
44:22the witness stand and
44:25he bamboozled me. Nobody else talked
44:27about this. My attorney is the one who
44:30brought it up and said, "Now, how do you
44:33feel about being molested?"
44:35Oh my goodness.
44:38And I was angry. Because you're angry
44:40about that? I said, "I'm angry because
44:42he knew it was a lie and yet he's the
44:45one that put it on the record."
44:47And it wasn't true. And when it came
44:49time to talk to the pre-sentence
44:51investigator, I told her, "It's not
44:53true. It is not true."
44:55My dad should not have to wear that ugly
44:57badge for something that he didn't do
45:00simply because my ex-husband was trying
45:02to manipulate the state because he
45:04wanted to get custody of my children
45:06because he knew I would follow him back
45:08to Oregon if he had custody. That is
45:10what happened.
45:12And
45:13and there you go. There's nothing more I
45:15can say about that. The truth is the
45:17truth.
45:18So, okay. I
45:20I just have a couple of clarifying
45:21questions. So,
45:24what you're saying is that this was made
45:28up by Steve in order to try to
45:30manipulate you to return with him to
45:34to live in Arizona. Right. Okay. At one
45:37point you said Oregon, but I assume you
45:38meant Arizona, right? I did. Okay.
45:42So, and then it's your you're saying
45:45that your defense lawyer told you to lie
45:49about this to make you look more
45:51credible. Is that what I'm
45:53understanding?
45:55Yes. Okay.
45:57>> Yeah. I I would not have said it that
45:59way, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
46:01To put it in a nutshell, yes. Okay. And
46:04so,
46:06when you met with Susan
46:09Staffle, you did not deny it. You just
46:13said nothing.
46:14I said nothing.
46:16And when you were on the witness stand,
46:19you said you were angry, but didn't
46:22clarify it or
46:25or deny it.
46:26>> Oh oh
46:27Oh, no. He No, he made me say that it
46:30happened. He made me say If you read my
46:33transcript, and I'm sure you have, you
46:35will see that Jim Jagger testified and I
46:38was just the one saying, "Uh-huh. No.
46:40Yes. No." Jim Jagger testified during He
46:43was the one who testified during my my
46:45trial. And when that was happening, it
46:49was because he knew I was not going to
46:52say what he wanted me to say. And so, he
46:55testified, "Now, isn't it true that your
46:57dad molested you?" "Oh, yeah."
47:00Well, you could have said no,
47:02right?
47:02>> I couldn't said no and I should have
47:04said no, but he said, "If you don't
47:09What he told me was Susan Staffle, "If
47:11you don't say this happened and then you
47:14look vulnerable
47:17and then when you say no that you didn't
47:19do the shooting, you're more
47:20believable." Yes. So, yes, he he
47:24he was absolutely convinced that this
47:27needed to be said even though it was a
47:28lie. And I told him, "It's not fair. Why
47:31are you going to do this to my dad?" He
47:33was, "Well, this isn't about your dad.
47:34It's about you." And I said, "No,
47:35because now you're turning my dad into
47:37some kind of a monster and he's not."
47:40Okay.
47:42So, you understand It still makes me
47:43angry.
47:44It still makes me angry. Okay.
47:47You understood though that you were
47:48under oath and you were sworn to tell
47:52the truth.
47:53Yeah. And that you lied under oath.
47:56Yes. Okay.
47:59Yes.
48:01Okay.
48:03Um
48:07Just like Kimber Morrison and Judy
48:09Patterson and all the rest. I'm sorry. I
48:12don't know what you mean.
48:14I'm sure my attorney right now is
48:15kicking the table. Well, what do you
48:17mean by Kimber Kimber Mor- My son
48:22uh S D D
48:25uh told his nurses about the mean man
48:27who shot him. Over and over, he told
48:30several nurses about the mean man who
48:31shot him.
48:33And
48:35the prosecutor did not want the jury to
48:38hear that. And so, that was ruled
48:41inadmissible. They could not hear my son
48:43say those things.
48:45His nurse who wrote this down,
48:49Kimber Morrison, got up there and said
48:52and testified, "Danny doesn't care about
48:54his mom. He never cared whether he she
48:56showed up or whether he she
48:59And she swore under oath. Hello. You
49:01guys left and now you're back. Okay.
49:03>> Yeah, I just glitched for a moment. Keep
49:05going.
49:05>> Yes, she did. Yes, she did. Keep going.
49:08>> So, she swore under oath that Danny did
49:12not care if I was there. He didn't care
49:13about me one way or the other. He never
49:15cried for me.
49:16The hospital reports
49:19showed that Danny every single day
49:21Kimber Morrison wrote down, "Danny
49:23crying for his mom. Danny wants to go
49:25home to his mom. Danny wants to see his
49:27mom." Every single day she test she
49:29wrote this down in the hospital reports.
49:31And yet she testified
49:34completely to the opposite. And my
49:36attorney did not question her, did not
49:38cross-examine her, did not say, "Oh,
49:41well, you said here, you wrote here,
49:43what about that?" He just said, "Okay,
49:45good enough. Any questions, Mr. Jagger?"
49:47No, we're good.
49:50So, and who was the other person? It was
49:53Morrison.
49:53>> Judy Patterson. Okay, and Judy
49:55Patterson.
49:56>> And what was Judy's your concerns about
49:58Judy?
50:00Judy Patterson,
50:02the night of the shooting, they did a
50:05gunshot residue test on my hands. That
50:08was in May. The test did not come back
50:11until August, and so
50:14they didn't know what the gunshot
50:15residue test was going to show that I
50:17did not shoot a gun. So, they were still
50:19going on their own premise of what they
50:21wanted.
50:23And you can't even be mad at them for
50:25wanting to believe that I did it.
50:27But,
50:28Judy Patterson said to 2 weeks later,
50:32before the GSR test came back and before
50:34they got the GSR test that she said that
50:37I went nowhere the bath nowhere near the
50:39bathroom. They questioned her a week
50:41later and she said the same thing.
50:44After the test came back,
50:47when you in August and then 1 year
50:49later, she got on the witness stand and
50:51she swore under oath that I asked for
50:53the bathroom, I went into the bathroom,
50:55I did not shut the door, I did not I ran
50:58the water, and there was no drinking cup
51:00in there. Basically implying that I was
51:03washing my hands of gunshot residue,
51:05because by then they knew there was no
51:07gunshot residue on my hands.
51:09And so, she swore under oath, "Mr.
51:12Jagger, would you like to
51:13cross-examine?" No, we're good.
51:16And we had the report. The report was
51:18right there. She was asked twice by the
51:20detectives, "Are you sure Diane went
51:22nowhere near the bathroom?" I'm positive
51:24she went nowhere near the bathroom. And
51:26yet swore under oath that I did.
51:29Okay.
51:30>> And nobody even tested it.
51:31So, I understand that you're saying your
51:34lawyer put you up
51:37to lying under oath, but
51:39what motive would Judy and
51:43Miss Judy Patterson and Miss Morrison
51:45have for lying? I don't understand why
51:47they would get on the witness stand,
51:50swear to tell the truth, and then
51:52under oath lie.
51:53>> And then
51:54and then lie when the reports are right
51:56there and they know we have the reports.
51:58I have no idea.
51:59I have no idea. My only guess is that
52:02the media was sensational and everybody
52:06was on board for hate Diane and they
52:09wanted to be part of the gang, I guess.
52:11I don't know. Some some people just
52:13don't have their own mind, they don't
52:15have their own spine. I don't know the
52:17answer and they knew that apparently
52:20nobody was going to cross-examine them
52:22because
52:24because nobody did.
52:26Nobody did. Jim Jagger did not cross it.
52:29You can read the transcript. Jim Jagger
52:31did not cross-examine either one of
52:32those women. He let them lie and he let
52:35it fly.
52:39So, I just so I understand, you're
52:40saying that due to your notoriety,
52:45they wanted
52:47to jump on the
52:49anti-Diane
52:51Downs train
52:53and lie. Is that what you're saying? I
52:56just want to make sure I understand.
52:57>> That
52:58I I cannot say that because I've never
53:01had the chance to ask them why they
53:02would lie. My attorney did not
53:04cross-examine them. I can only say, you
53:06asked me, why do I think? And so, my
53:09answer is I can only assume, based on
53:12human nature, is that they wanted to be
53:15they didn't want to be outliers. I don't
53:18know. I I don't know the reason.
53:21Okay. You asked what I thought. Why do I
53:23think they would do that? And based on
53:25my experience with other people that
53:27I've met in prison that are weak,
53:29they There you go.
53:32Okay.
53:33Um
53:38All right.
53:41I don't have any other questions.
53:44Thank you. Um
53:46Miss Downs, okay, I want to just follow
53:48up so we're very clear.
53:50I understand you're saying you can't
53:53know for certain what these people's
53:55objectives were in
53:57providing false testimony, but I just
54:00want to clarify for the record, you're
54:02saying your attorney suborned perjury by
54:04asking you
54:06to introduce information that he knew
54:07was false.
54:09Is that Is that correct?
54:11Wow. I I never thought of it that way
54:14because yeah, that's that's exactly what
54:17he did.
54:18Let me write that down, I'll be right
54:19back.
54:22Okay, so he could lose his bar license
54:25for doing that, but that's what you're
54:26saying he did during your trial,
54:28correct?
54:30He has already resigned and
54:34so he as far as I know, he doesn't even
54:35have a license anymore. I mean, when you
54:37resign, you I think you have to re-up
54:39it. I don't know. I don't know, I'm not
54:41out there.
54:42All I can tell you is I did not shoot my
54:45children.
54:46My attorney should have represented me
54:48to the best of his ability.
54:51And I don't know that he did or that he
54:53didn't. I don't know what his abilities
54:54were,
54:55but I can tell you I did not shoot my
54:57children. We have DNA evidence that was
54:59found at the scene that my attorney is
55:01going to be introducing and
55:05past that I I
55:06which would prove actual innocence.
55:08Okay, so you're saying So,
55:10So, you're saying you don't know if he
55:11did or he didn't represent you
55:13adequately, but you're also saying he
55:16suborned perjury, he failed to
55:18cross-examine witnesses, he failed to
55:20present any I think rebuttal testimony
55:24of a medical expert, correct? Despite
55:26the fact that you're saying there was
55:28doctors contemporaneous with this that
55:30disagreed with the state's expert
55:32witness, correct?
55:36I'm not saying that. I don't I don't
55:38even know what suborning perjury is. I
55:41I've never thought about that. All I
55:43know
55:44is what involves me. I know for a fact I
55:48did not shoot my children.
55:50I know for a fact that there's DNA
55:52evidence found right next to the chewed
55:54gum and beer cans right next to the
55:56murder casings on the roadway that were
55:58found and admitted into evidence,
56:00exhibit 15, that my attorney is going to
56:03have tested for DNA that should find the
56:07person who actually did this. I know
56:09that my attorney, according to the
56:11prosecutor in 1991, my attorney agreed
56:15with the prosecutor to withhold
56:17fingerprints from the judge, from me,
56:19from the jury, from the media.
56:22That's in Fred Hugi's Prosecutor Hugi's
56:25he testified to that under oath that he
56:29and Jim Jagger agreed together to
56:31withhold that evidence from the court.
56:33So,
56:35that's evidence at the murder scene that
56:37may very well identify the man who shot
56:40and chewed that gum and drank those the
56:42beer out of those cans.
56:44I I don't know. This case truly is still
56:47ongoing.
56:49I I don't know any I don't even know
56:51what I'm going to go look up suborning
56:53perjury in my law book. That's why I
56:55wrote it down. Because I don't know. I
56:57don't know what it means. And that's
56:58okay, maybe it's I mean, what it means
57:00is essentially offering testimony you
57:02know is false into the record. It's
57:04something that lawyers are absolutely
57:06not allowed to do.
57:08Well, that's what the prosecutor did. He
57:10had he had Kimberly Morrison's hospital
57:13reports, he read them and wanted them
57:15excluded cuz he knew his witness was
57:17going to lie. He offered Judy Patterson
57:20on the witness stand and during
57:22discovery gave us her two reports that
57:25detective she told detectives I went
57:28nowhere the near the bathroom. The
57:30prosecutor offered the evidence too that
57:32he knew for a fact was not true. Okay.
57:34So,
57:36is that suborning perjury, too? I don't
57:38know.
57:38>> Yes. So, so I just again, I just want to
57:40clarify both your attorney and the
57:42prosecutor, Mr. Hugi, I don't know if
57:45I'm pronouncing that right. Both of them
57:47both of them offered testimony they knew
57:49to be false and it sounds like the
57:51prosecutor also also withheld
57:53exculpatory evidence by keeping out, you
57:56know, your son's statements.
57:59Yes. Is that right?
58:00>> That he got the court permission to do.
58:03Okay. The court judge put agreed to
58:05withhold Daniel's statements from the
58:07jury.
58:08Okay. That the judge knew about. And
58:10then it sounds like at least two
58:11witnesses, Miss Morrison and Miss
58:14Patterson,
58:15Patterson. also
58:17provided testimony under oath that
58:19you're saying was false, correct?
58:23Uh if you're going to keep the record
58:25open, I'll send it to you.
58:27That's what you want. It's not me saying
58:30it. Okay. It's it's in the transcript.
58:32It's in the police reports that were
58:34discovered to us pre-trial.
58:37Okay. Everybody knew this. Everybody
58:39except the media and the judge
58:42Okay. and the jury.
58:45So, I I want to we've kind of gone into
58:47a specific area and we're going to talk
58:49more about your crimes of conviction a
58:52little bit later, but I do have just
58:53kind of one question that relates to
58:56your growth during your incarceration
58:59and potentially programming. Um have you
59:02identified any weaknesses
59:05um about yourself that you think you
59:07need to work on?
59:09Either through programming or through,
59:11you know, activities or any any Have you
59:13at any point during your incarceration
59:15identified anything?
59:18I recognize weaknesses in myself
59:21regularly.
59:22I work on them regularly.
59:25Um
59:26one is I trust. I trust too much.
59:29I
59:31sometimes
59:33want to appear stronger than I am
59:35because
59:38when I was growing up, I was the oldest
59:40of five. And so my mom was a
59:43stay-at-home mom. My mom never left us
59:46alone. She was always there with us, but
59:49I felt within myself that I wanted to
59:53help my mom. I wanted to support her.
59:55So, I helped take care of my siblings.
59:57And so, as I'm growing up
1:00:00when something bad when there's a
1:00:03something scary, there's a storm. In
1:00:04Arizona, we have monsoon seasons. So,
1:00:06when there's a scary storm my job
1:00:09self-imposed my job was to help take
1:00:12care of my siblings and make sure
1:00:13they're not scared because of the
1:00:15lightning and the thunder during the
1:00:16monsoon season. That was just one thing.
1:00:19Um when
1:00:21they are first day of school, I would
1:00:23walk them to school and introduce them
1:00:24to their teachers and to the other kids
1:00:26so they wouldn't be afraid.
1:00:28Those are self-imposed things that I do
1:00:30to myself. Which they call in prison
1:00:33codependency.
1:00:34You want people to feel I want people to
1:00:37feel safe and comfortable and not
1:00:40stressed out.
1:00:41So when my kids and I were shot and we
1:00:45were at the hospital
1:00:47the detectives are asking me these
1:00:49questions and they're they have these
1:00:50very worried concerned looks on their
1:00:52faces. Bless their hearts. I'm glad that
1:00:54they were worried and concerned. My job
1:00:57self-imposed was not to make them freak
1:00:59out to make them feel calm, to make them
1:01:02feel like it's going to be okay. We have
1:01:04it under control. We're a team. We're
1:01:06going to be able to do this. And so, I
1:01:08don't panic. I don't lose control. I
1:01:10don't fall on the floor crying and and
1:01:12doing all the things that people think
1:01:14that that I'm supposed to do.
1:01:17I've learned this about myself. What I
1:01:19wanted to do was just scream and kick
1:01:21and and and well, I kept running into
1:01:23the trauma room and they kept kicking me
1:01:25out. That's what I wanted to do. I
1:01:27wanted to run into the trauma room and
1:01:28do something to fix it. To tell the
1:01:30doctor, what can I do? Is there anything
1:01:32that I can do? And they kept kicking me
1:01:35out giving me back to the detectives.
1:01:37And so, my job now, don't fall apart.
1:01:40Keep calm. So, I've learned these things
1:01:42about myself. That's just one thing.
1:01:43I've learned a lots of things about
1:01:45myself, but
1:01:46and have I fixed it?
1:01:50I don't know that you can ever really
1:01:51fix it. I'm sure I'm going to need
1:01:53counseling and and Dr. McNeal has
1:01:58graciously
1:01:59accepted me as a client when I get out
1:02:03to meet with her on a regular basis
1:02:05because the world has changed out there.
1:02:07And I will
1:02:09I'm sure I'm going to need lots of
1:02:10counseling. And I don't mean just from
1:02:13prison because prison's actually been
1:02:14very educational. I've learned things
1:02:17when I see other people doing things
1:02:19like um
1:02:21being impatient.
1:02:23I always ask myself, do I do that?
1:02:26Because
1:02:27that's really dumb. I mean, impatience
1:02:30it's going to happen when it's going to
1:02:32happen. I I told my roommates this
1:02:33morning they said, "Diane, you've got
1:02:34this. You've got this." And I said,
1:02:36"It's going to be what it's going to be.
1:02:37The creator has his own plan. Whatever
1:02:39the plan is."
1:02:41And I accept that. You can't stress out
1:02:44over things that you can't change.
1:02:46That's always been my nature. That's
1:02:48always been my first nature.
1:02:50Unfortunately for me, sometimes that
1:02:53means that I will walk away from
1:02:55something if there's no fixing it.
1:02:59Like relationships.
1:03:01I wasn't obsessed with one man.
1:03:02Prosecutor on one side of his mouth
1:03:04says, "She had four boyfriends and she
1:03:07was obsessed with one." How does that
1:03:09happen?
1:03:11There's how does that I don't understand
1:03:13how that could even happen, but that's
1:03:15beside the point.
1:03:17So, yes, there's things that I found
1:03:19about myself. I am and have always been
1:03:22codependent.
1:03:23Am I still? No. Now, when somebody comes
1:03:26and says, "Diane, can you come and do my
1:03:28laundry at 6:00 at night?" I don't feel
1:03:31I'm tired. I worked all day. No, I
1:03:34cannot do your laundry at 6:00 at night.
1:03:37I worked all day, too.
1:03:38So, I have learned these things about
1:03:40myself that those are weaknesses. I
1:03:43considered them growing up as strengths
1:03:45because I'm strong enough that I can do
1:03:47it. They're not. You don't have to fix
1:03:50everybody's problem.
1:03:52I've taught my roommates to say, "If I
1:03:54didn't break you, it's not my job to fix
1:03:56you."
1:03:57And I believe it. I believe it.
1:04:00So, yes, there are many things that I've
1:04:02learned in prison and from these groups
1:04:05and simply by observing around me. If I
1:04:09see something that is just absolutely
1:04:10crazy I always ask myself, do I do that?
1:04:14Cuz that's really stupid.
1:04:16There you go.
1:04:17Okay, great. Um I just want to clarify
1:04:20you you were mentioning
1:04:22how you were behaving in the hospital.
1:04:25Um just a moment ago. And my Yeah.
1:04:28Correct me if I'm misun- derstanding
1:04:30where you were going with that, but
1:04:32there was some mention of the fact that
1:04:35police thought you had an odd demeanor.
1:04:37They didn't think you were reacting
1:04:38appropriately.
1:04:40Am I understanding that you are saying
1:04:42because you you know, have this overly
1:04:44trusting uh
1:04:46issue at least you you have historically
1:04:49and you as you said, you're codependent
1:04:51that's the reason why you were behaving
1:04:53strangely. Am I
1:04:54Am I connecting the dots here?
1:04:57That's why I was behaving the way that I
1:04:59was that they perceived to be strange.
1:05:01Um the nurses wrote down I have a
1:05:03hospital report that when I was admitted
1:05:05to the hospital, they said, "Mother in
1:05:07shock. Cannot comprehend what's
1:05:09happening."
1:05:11So
1:05:12that never quite made the headlines, but
1:05:17it's there. The the hospital report is
1:05:19there. The medical staff
1:05:22the nursing staff understood that I was
1:05:24in shock.
1:05:25But it didn't fit the scenario, I guess.
1:05:29I mean
1:05:30everybody has a job to do. So, their job
1:05:33was for whatever reason put me in
1:05:35prison. So
1:05:38he can't fix it. Don't stress on it.
1:05:41Okay, thank you so much, Ms. Downs. I'm
1:05:43going to turn to Mr. Reese.
1:05:46Thank you.
1:05:48Ms. Downs uh
1:05:50it sounds as if then uh not only did
1:05:54your defense attorney
1:05:57uh fail to
1:05:59do their job
1:06:01which would be to give you zealous
1:06:03representation in your defense
1:06:06uh
1:06:07but but that additionally
1:06:09the case prosecutor
1:06:12and the police detectives also knew
1:06:17that there was
1:06:18exculpatory evidence in your case that
1:06:20that simply was not presented in court.
1:06:23Is that Is that correct?
1:06:27Yeah.
1:06:28I
1:06:29I know we are not supposed to be
1:06:31retrying the case,
1:06:32but 15 years in 1998, 15 years after the
1:06:37trial Judge Haggerty issued a subpoena.
1:06:41Was the first judge to issue a subpoena
1:06:43to order
1:06:44the state to give us their police
1:06:47reports.
1:06:484,700 documents we were given that we
1:06:51had not received.
1:06:53So it's not just me. It's not sour
1:06:56grapes. This is me living this case for
1:06:5942 years and being on the front line and
1:07:03knowing exactly what was withheld and
1:07:04what wasn't withheld. We got a report in
1:07:0719 The shooting was in 1983.
1:07:10We got a report in 1998 withheld by the
1:07:13police. We made three
1:07:16three motions for discovery. This report
1:07:18was not given to us until 1998
1:07:21that shows that two days after the
1:07:23shooting somebody called the police and
1:07:26said, "We know who shot the Downs
1:07:28children.
1:07:30She's a Free Soul affiliate.
1:07:33Call me at this number."
1:07:35They never called. The police never
1:07:37called that number. We were not given
1:07:38that report.
1:07:40That's exculpatory.
1:07:42The state had a responsibility to give
1:07:45it to us. Mr. Jagger asked for it three
1:07:47times.
1:07:48The judge said finally Roy Pond,
1:07:51Detective Pond took the witness stand
1:07:54and the judge he admitted that he
1:07:56withheld evidence, that he destroyed
1:07:58evidence, that other detectives
1:08:00destroyed evidence. And the judge said,
1:08:02"Wait a minute. I want to question this
1:08:04witness."
1:08:05Under under voir dire
1:08:08the judge said, "Are you telling me then
1:08:10at the time that you were investigating
1:08:12this case
1:08:14that the evidence, the reports proved
1:08:16this woman was telling the truth?" And
1:08:18he said, "Yes."
1:08:21He said
1:08:22"When did you stop invest" and then Jim
1:08:24Jag he not then the judge asked my
1:08:26attorney Oh, he said, "And I kept
1:08:29investigating the reports until Sergeant
1:08:31Hentz ordered me to stop investigating."
1:08:35The judge asked my attorney, "Do you
1:08:37have a question?" He said, "Yes. When
1:08:38was that?" Two weeks after the shooting.
1:08:41Then what happened to you? Then he was
1:08:44sent to work as a county jailer at a
1:08:46jailer in the county jail.
1:08:48And he was removed as a detective from
1:08:50the case.
1:08:51That is all in the transcript. This is
1:08:54not just me wishing that that's what
1:08:56happened. That I can tell you for a
1:08:58fact. This is not me thinking it. This
1:09:00is me having read these documents over
1:09:02and over saying, "How come nobody wants
1:09:04to read this? Why does nobody want to
1:09:07read this?"
1:09:08So
1:09:11There you go. O- O- Okay. So, I just to
1:09:14kind of take you back to where we were
1:09:16uh
1:09:18was really at the time of the trial is
1:09:20that I was talking about it because
1:09:22uh I just want to make sure I understand
1:09:24what you were telling Vice Chair
1:09:25Cleaver. At the time of the trial
1:09:29the there were reports and documents
1:09:31that had been provided
1:09:34by
1:09:35the police or the prosecution to your
1:09:38defense attorney.
1:09:40Yes. That Three. Three. Three of those
1:09:43documents. Three of the police reports.
1:09:45Go ahead. Okay. And And those
1:09:48could all be said to be exculpatory and
1:09:52Yes. witnesses testified contrary to
1:09:56what was in those reports. So, I just
1:09:58want to
1:09:59because if that's the case then
1:10:01that meant that the police and the
1:10:03prosecution, as well as your defense
1:10:04attorney, at the time of the trial, all
1:10:06knew
1:10:08that
1:10:11this testimony was contrary to what was
1:10:13in the reports.
1:10:15Right?
1:10:17That's correct. Okay.
1:10:19But we're not We're not putting them on
1:10:22trial. It's too late. There's nothing
1:10:24that can
1:10:26I am not out to get the prosecutor. That
1:10:28man
1:10:32I'm probably the only person on this
1:10:34planet
1:10:35who likes Fred Hugi in my Well, the only
1:10:38person in my family. My dad hated Fred.
1:10:41I
1:10:42respect Fred.
1:10:44I support Fred.
1:10:46He and his wife, Joanne
1:10:48did not want children.
1:10:51My children were handicapped and they
1:10:55stopped their lives to
1:10:58take care of and protect my children.
1:11:00Fred knows I didn't do this. If Fred
1:11:04thought that my children were in danger,
1:11:05Fred hid them. He took them and he hid
1:11:08them. He's not hiding them from me. I'm
1:11:09in prison. Fred hid them because he
1:11:11knows that the man who shot them is
1:11:13still out there. I
1:11:16respect
1:11:17that man.
1:11:19I do not hate him.
1:11:23He raised my children. He loves them.
1:11:29Nobody will ever make me say anything
1:11:30bad about Fred. The transcript shows
1:11:33that what the transcript says. Yes, Fred
1:11:35did some things that were wrong because
1:11:36he needed to put me in prison because he
1:11:38needed to stop the investigation because
1:11:41they could not find the man who did
1:11:42this. And as long as Diane's in prison,
1:11:45then the man who did this thinks he's
1:11:47safe and my children are safe. I really
1:11:49believe in my heart that's what
1:11:52why Fred did what he did. Not cuz he
1:11:54hated me.
1:11:56Not because
1:11:58he wanted to close the case. Well, kind
1:12:00of. But he wanted to protect my kids
1:12:02from the person who did this. And it
1:12:04wasn't me.
1:12:05It just If If it was me, why would he
1:12:08hide them? Who's he hiding them from?
1:12:11Not me?
1:12:13No, I I We are not trying to turn this
1:12:16around and make Fred Hugi the bad guy or
1:12:19Jim Jagger the bad guy. This has nothing
1:12:21to do with them. This is years after the
1:12:22fact.
1:12:24Jim Jagger, he retired. Fred Hugi
1:12:26retired. Everybody's retired or
1:12:29dead. We're all old now.
1:12:33Uh
1:12:34crap. I was going to get through this
1:12:36without doing this.
1:12:38Uh
1:12:40Anyway.
1:12:41No, this is not about Well bash Fred
1:12:43Hugi Day. It just isn't going to be
1:12:45about that. I have too much respect for
1:12:47him. Oh, okay. Well, I I wasn't
1:12:48suggesting that it was. I I never said
1:12:51that. You You said that. And I was
1:12:53really just trying to clarify Cuz that's
1:12:55how I was I was starting to feel
1:12:56protective of him.
1:12:57>> Okay. Oh, crap. I'm so offended. Well
1:13:01So, that So, yeah, let me ask you about
1:13:05that when you because you you told the
1:13:08other board members that you've learned
1:13:11through programming that you're too
1:13:12trusting.
1:13:14Yeah. Yeah. Um
1:13:16and that
1:13:19I just make sure I understand that
1:13:21because you're too trusting
1:13:23that that led to
1:13:26you stopping on a road in the middle of
1:13:28the night uh
1:13:31for a strange man who ended up shooting
1:13:33you and the children.
1:13:36Is that right?
1:13:37Yes.
1:13:39And that because you were too trusting
1:13:41you agreed to falsely accuse your father
1:13:44of sexually abusing you.
1:13:47And because you were too trusting, you
1:13:49were wrongfully convicted.
1:13:53Yes.
1:13:54Yes. I I I trusted that the police would
1:13:57do the right thing, that the law
1:14:00is something that everybody has to abide
1:14:02by, not just the people on the street,
1:14:04but also the law keepers and the law
1:14:05givers and the law enforcers. You I
1:14:08assume that they would be doing the
1:14:10right thing and
1:14:13I
1:14:13you expect that your attorney is going
1:14:15to do what he's supposed to do, which is
1:14:17represent you to the best of his
1:14:18ability. I didn't know until eight years
1:14:20later that he actually was Fred Hugi's
1:14:22co-worker in the Lane County District
1:14:24Attorney's office.
1:14:26That was a surprise to me.
1:14:28So, the year before the year before we
1:14:31had my dad hired him. So.
1:14:34There uh yes, I trusted
1:14:37when I told the police what happened I
1:14:39believed that they were going to find
1:14:40him. I had no reason to doubt to doubt
1:14:43that they were going to do that. When my
1:14:44attorney said, "I need you to talk to
1:14:46the media because people have been
1:14:48calling the office and saying that the
1:14:51police are not following up on on their
1:14:53leads. I need you to talk to the media
1:14:55so that more people will come and give
1:14:57me leads." And I trusted that that was
1:15:00the right thing to do. I trusted that
1:15:03when the media came and said, "Diane, we
1:15:04know you love your kids. Here's your
1:15:07opportunity to to say how much you love
1:15:09them." And so, I did because I couldn't
1:15:11see my kids and I worried about them.
1:15:13They were in foster care and and I
1:15:15worried about them and and so, I took
1:15:17the opportunity to tell my children how
1:15:19much I loved them and I missed them and
1:15:22I want them to get better and I want
1:15:23them to be okay. And none of that ever
1:15:26made the news, but I trusted that it was
1:15:28going to because that's what the media
1:15:29came to me with. I was young. I was
1:15:32stupid. I was naive. I was
1:15:34I was inexperienced.
1:15:37I I The only violence in my whole life
1:15:39was ever Steven Downs.
1:15:41And And
1:15:43I wasn't prepared to find out that the
1:15:45world is
1:15:48not exactly
1:15:50what I thought it was.
1:15:53Okay. So, and
1:15:55which
1:15:56of the programming
1:15:58that you have participated in led you to
1:16:03realize
1:16:05that you are too trusting?
1:16:09That would have been the
1:16:11um
1:16:12Oh, shoot. What was the last one? I I
1:16:14wrote it down cuz I can never remember
1:16:15it. Life Scripting. I can never remember
1:16:17that name. That was It was the Life
1:16:19Scripting class.
1:16:21Um Okay. So, that And that's
1:16:23>> actual Go ahead. Well, I Sorry. Just But
1:16:26to be clear, that's That's the
1:16:28programming you've been engaged in
1:16:31since the last time you saw the board.
1:16:33Is that right?
1:16:34>> No, that one was No, that one was about
1:16:36eight years ago.
1:16:36>> Oh, that was eight years ago?
1:16:38Oh, okay.
1:16:38>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've been on
1:16:40this this
1:16:42this path to healing
1:16:45So
1:16:46>> a literal person. I am a literal person.
1:16:48I take everything literally. All right.
1:16:50>> say when you say, "What happened on May
1:16:5319th?" What happened on May 19th was we
1:16:55were shot. Literally, that was it. That
1:16:58was But what And when
1:17:00when people say
1:17:02"Did you hurt your children?"
1:17:05Literally, no, I didn't. And during this
1:17:07Life Scripting class, I realized that I
1:17:09did.
1:17:11That eight years ago was an epiphany for
1:17:14me and it is like the floodgates have
1:17:16opened. I did. If my children had not
1:17:18been with me on that road
1:17:20nothing would have happened to them.
1:17:23It
1:17:24I didn't I didn't want somebody to shoot
1:17:26my children. I did not have a gun. I did
1:17:28not shoot my children. But if my
1:17:31If my children had not been with me that
1:17:33night, they would not be
1:17:37They would not be dead and injured.
1:17:41I am the reason for that.
1:17:44Ms. Downs.
1:17:45>> I am the reason for that. Ms. Downs. And
1:17:47I know that, but I did not understand
1:17:49that because I am a literalist. I am a
1:17:52literal person.
1:17:54Oh, okay. Ms. Downs. And that That
1:17:56opened it up for me. I All right. So,
1:17:58thank you for sharing that. I'm I'm
1:17:59sorry to interrupt, but I I really want
1:18:01to get back to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:18:03the the
1:18:04the question at hand or the topic at
1:18:07hand and it really goes back to the
1:18:08beginning when Chair Bailey said that he
1:18:11wanted to ask you about what programming
1:18:13you did
1:18:15Yeah. since the last time you saw the
1:18:17board. So, we've now established that
1:18:19you you
1:18:20>> Yes.
1:18:21issue of learning about you trusting too
1:18:24much. You You'd already gained that
1:18:26insight.
1:18:28Yes. Eight years ago. So, and I'm sorry
1:18:30if maybe you said this and I missed it,
1:18:32but what what, if anything have you
1:18:37gained insight about or learned in
1:18:40the time, the last five years since you
1:18:42saw the board last?
1:18:45I've taken cognitive behavioral
1:18:47treatment. Yes, and you mentioned that,
1:18:50but what Did you Did Did you learn
1:18:52something from that? And if so, what?
1:18:55It It was
1:18:56Hm.
1:18:57Hm.
1:19:00Uh it's Victim Impact.
1:19:03It was LTOP again, in which I took 10
1:19:05years ago. So
1:19:07Um it was a refresher course. What have
1:19:10I learned more about myself?
1:19:12That it's not easy. That it's not easy
1:19:15to to
1:19:16undo a lifetime of behavior.
1:19:20Um
1:19:22trusting.
1:19:23You have to be able to trust to an
1:19:25extent. You can't just not trust
1:19:28anybody. That's not healthy. And it's
1:19:30it's not good for you, it's not good for
1:19:31anybody else.
1:19:33So, I have tried to learn to balance
1:19:35between the two. But everything goes
1:19:37back to life scripting. Why do I do
1:19:39something? If If somebody comes and and
1:19:43they say, "Diane, I need you to do
1:19:44something." And
1:19:47I can do it. I do it because I want to
1:19:49do it, not because I feel like I have to
1:19:51do it anymore.
1:19:52But if I feel like I have to do it, why
1:19:55do I feel like I have to do it?
1:19:57Is it because if I don't do it, they
1:20:00won't like me? That's never been the
1:20:01reason, but that's one of the things
1:20:03that they teach you. I I've never
1:20:04worried about not doing something
1:20:06because I won't be liked. I
1:20:08That doesn't really bother me. But
1:20:12is basically just building on that.
1:20:13Every day practicing that skill. You
1:20:15don't just take a class and that's the
1:20:17end of it. You have to practice it every
1:20:20single day
1:20:21until it just becomes second nature for
1:20:23you.
1:20:24And so, every time somebody asks me
1:20:26something, it's a practice lesson built
1:20:29on
1:20:30life scripting.
1:20:31Um
1:20:33the classes that I've taken in Prison of
1:20:35Peace
1:20:37it was great. It teaches you how to
1:20:40um
1:20:42mediate other people's problems. But
1:20:44while you're mediating somebody else's
1:20:46problems, it opens the door for saying,
1:20:48"Hey, I had that same problem at some
1:20:49point." Um maybe I had Whether it's a
1:20:53problem with a roommate or a problem
1:20:54with a staff person or a problem with
1:20:56something at home. My mom just recently
1:20:58ended up in the hospital. And
1:21:02there was nothing I could do about it.
1:21:05So, go back to life scripting. Why do I
1:21:08feel like I have to do something about
1:21:10it?
1:21:11Uh the doctors are taking care of her.
1:21:12She's in the hospital. She's being
1:21:14rehydrated. So, there's nothing you can
1:21:17do. So, stressing on that isn't going to
1:21:19make mom any better and it's not going
1:21:21to make you any better.
1:21:24And those are things that I've learned
1:21:25in the classes since then because every
1:21:27class that I've taken since then always
1:21:30goes back to life scripting. Always goes
1:21:32back to why.
1:21:34Cuz I I'm a person that needs to know
1:21:35why.
1:21:36It's not It's
1:21:39It just I need to know why everything.
1:21:41Why do I do what I do? Why do other
1:21:43people do what they do?
1:21:45Why do they not do what they do?
1:21:47So.
1:21:49All right. Thank you, Ms. Downs.
1:21:51All right. Ms. Conty, any questions
1:21:53about programming?
1:21:54Um yes. Uh
1:21:57Ms. Downs, you took uh
1:21:59a um Victim's Impact Course uh back in
1:22:032018.
1:22:05Um can you tell the board a little bit
1:22:07about this program? Just your experience
1:22:09with the program?
1:22:10And what you learned? Yes.
1:22:12Yes. Victim Impact
1:22:15Uh
1:22:16I think they probably have the same
1:22:17thing there. But in case they don't,
1:22:19I'll I'll give you a brief rundown of
1:22:22what it's about.
1:22:23They
1:22:24bring in video screens and people that
1:22:27have been victims of crimes, various
1:22:30crimes, will tell their story and then
1:22:32we talk about
1:22:34we a
1:22:37I ate inmates, we prisoners, get
1:22:40together and we talk about how would you
1:22:43feel if you were that person or if you
1:22:44were that person's family? How do you
1:22:46feel knowing that you maybe did
1:22:48something like that or that you did
1:22:50something that led to something like
1:22:52that happening. And so, we basically rip
1:22:55open our souls to
1:22:57to
1:22:58talk about
1:23:01that particular case. Whether it's a
1:23:03rape case or a
1:23:05a robbery case or an assault or a murder
1:23:08or whatever.
1:23:09And so
1:23:11in those cases, we are able to because
1:23:14everybody in the class wants to be in
1:23:16that class class. Everybody wants to
1:23:19figure out why they did what they did.
1:23:22Why they became the person that they
1:23:23became. And so, we are open enough to
1:23:26talk with each other about
1:23:28things. And maybe somebody else will say
1:23:30something
1:23:32that's what that's what impacted me.
1:23:34That's what made me finally realize it
1:23:36is my fault. It is my fault. You don't
1:23:38have to pick up a gun to make it your
1:23:40fault.
1:23:41And so, it was hearing one of the other
1:23:44girls talk about her story about she was
1:23:48uh uh
1:23:49that
1:23:50she had done something to provoke her
1:23:53husband to attack her and she ended up
1:23:55killing him.
1:23:57And so, while she It wasn't her
1:23:59intention to kill him,
1:24:01it
1:24:02it
1:24:03What started was her provoking him to
1:24:06anger.
1:24:07And she just won the battle. And I'm not
1:24:09saying it's right, I'm just telling you
1:24:10that that was what came out in the
1:24:12class. And so, looking at it that from
1:24:14that point of view, it helps all of us
1:24:18say, "Hey, I can relate to that in one
1:24:20way or another." Maybe not exactly that
1:24:23way, but in another way. And so, Victim
1:24:25Impact was a way was is a class that was
1:24:29sponsored by the outside. They they send
1:24:31um
1:24:32people from the outside world that come
1:24:34in and teach it. It's not state It's not
1:24:36prison not guard sponsored.
1:24:38Uh and they go to all these classes and
1:24:41training and stuff to be trained in what
1:24:43to say to us and what to ask us that
1:24:46provokes us to look past what we thought
1:24:51we knew to something that we didn't know
1:24:54about
1:24:56about our victims.
1:24:58And there you go.
1:24:59So, and so that's what Victim Impact is.
1:25:02It's
1:25:04we watch videos and we talk.
1:25:07Okay. And you said that the people
1:25:10people that are there, they want to be
1:25:11there because they they want to kind of
1:25:12know why they did what they did. What
1:25:15was your motivation for for taking the
1:25:17course?
1:25:20Well, I took I voluntarily took L-Top
1:25:22back 8 years ago. I And it's exactly the
1:25:25same same as CBT.
1:25:28I took it 8 8 years ago.
1:25:30My reason was because I wanted to know
1:25:34what happened. Why? What makes me get to
1:25:38the point because I took L-Top right
1:25:40about the same time that I that I took
1:25:42the um
1:25:43life scripting class. They were pretty
1:25:44much about the same time.
1:25:46And after life scripting, I said, "Wait
1:25:48a minute. I don't know something. Are
1:25:49there some things about myself that I
1:25:50need to know about myself and maybe this
1:25:52class will help." I looked at it as a
1:25:55class for me.
1:25:57And
1:25:58when I took it, they had um Victim
1:26:00Impact, Anger Management, Parenting, all
1:26:03the different classes that they had. And
1:26:05so, I took it because I wanted to know
1:26:08why. What
1:26:10Why is it that I am a literalist? Why do
1:26:12I Why am I just
1:26:14a person that if you ask me a question,
1:26:17I'm going to give you black and white,
1:26:18literally, what the answer is and not
1:26:21all the extras that go along with it.
1:26:24That's why one of the one of the members
1:26:26there asked me what I think.
1:26:28I told you what I think. That doesn't
1:26:29mean it is about Cameron and and Judy.
1:26:33That that doesn't mean that that's what
1:26:35they're thinking. But you asked me what
1:26:36I think there why I thought their
1:26:38behavior was that way. I'm literally
1:26:40answering questions.
1:26:42It's my purse. I don't know.
1:26:45But so, through Victim Impact, I was
1:26:47able to
1:26:48stretch that a little bit further
1:26:51and see that not everything is literal.
1:26:55I
1:26:56I took it because I wanted to be better.
1:26:58I wanted to know why. Why? Why Why would
1:27:01I stop on the road? Why would I
1:27:04meet with somebody? Why wasn't I afraid?
1:27:07Why
1:27:11Why?
1:27:12And that's why I took it.
1:27:14And then okay. So, CBT, I didn't
1:27:16voluntarily take CBT. I was drafted. I
1:27:20was drafted that time. Now, I went to
1:27:22board in 2020, Mr. Bailey knows, and
1:27:25James Taylor said, "So, I see you took
1:27:27these classes." And he wanted me to talk
1:27:29about them and I did. And he said, "Huh,
1:27:33sounds to me like they're just teaching
1:27:35you how to manipulate the board."
1:27:37All I could do was laugh and say, "Well,
1:27:39Mr. Taylor, you never have to worry
1:27:41about seeing anything like that in my
1:27:43e-file again."
1:27:45I'll be doggoned if 2 years later I got
1:27:47drafted into CBT. And so, I asked to be
1:27:50removed because of what Mr. Taylor said
1:27:52because I didn't want the board members
1:27:54to think that I was disrespecting you,
1:27:57that I was disregarding your
1:27:59wishes. If you didn't want me to take
1:28:01those classes because you believe that
1:28:03it's a manipulation, I don't want you to
1:28:05say, "Well, the heck with you. I can do
1:28:07anything I want. Just watch me." And so,
1:28:10I fought to not go to CBT.
1:28:13And I ended up doing the whole program
1:28:15anyway. That's why I can tell you that
1:28:16it is L-Top 2.0. It is exactly They use
1:28:19the same videos for for
1:28:22um Victim Impact. Everything is the
1:28:24same.
1:28:25And but because I had been through it
1:28:27before, I actually got more out of it
1:28:30because I wasn't just flailing around in
1:28:32the dark. Plus, I had had my um
1:28:36life scripting class in between the two.
1:28:39So, I knew that there was something that
1:28:41needed to be fixed. Before that, I
1:28:43honestly I honestly believed there was
1:28:45nothing that needed to be fixed.
1:28:47I really didn't. And now I know there
1:28:49there is. I have weaknesses. I have
1:28:54I have things that I need counseling
1:28:56for.
1:28:57But I didn't think I did
1:28:59in L-Top.
1:29:01Took the life scripting, realized I did
1:29:03have weaknesses, got drafted into CBT,
1:29:06fought it, but I went every single day.
1:29:09And I participated every single day. And
1:29:11I got things out of it.
1:29:15If you if you could have access to any
1:29:18any programming or therapy
1:29:22from where you're you're at, is there
1:29:24there's something specifically that you
1:29:26think that you need?
1:29:30Yes.
1:29:31I need a counselor who asks who
1:29:34actually believes that I'm innocent
1:29:37and will listen to what I have to say.
1:29:40Most
1:29:42counselors
1:29:43in prison,
1:29:45they have the same thing that you have,
1:29:46which is the
1:29:48all the documents that that the state
1:29:50gives you, whatever whatever it might
1:29:52be. And so, that's all they have to go
1:29:54on.
1:29:55They don't have anything else. And they
1:29:56have
1:29:57to trust, imagine that. They have to
1:30:00trust that what they're given is
1:30:02accurate. I'm not saying that what
1:30:04you've given them is a lie. I'm saying
1:30:06that it's incomplete. You don't have
1:30:08Kimber Morrison's transcript. You don't
1:30:10have Judy Pattison's transcript. You
1:30:11don't have the police reports. So, what
1:30:13you've been given, you have to trust is
1:30:16accurate. And it's not. So, if I was to
1:30:20have a counselor, it would be a
1:30:21counselor that absolutely accepted me
1:30:25for what is the truth for
1:30:28I didn't do it. Accept that that's the
1:30:30truth. And then listen to me because
1:30:32there's no not going to be any true
1:30:34healing until I can actually say the
1:30:36truth
1:30:38and get questions and because most
1:30:42psychologists, what they do is they ask
1:30:44you questions that will make you look at
1:30:46yourself deeper.
1:30:47And so, if I say I didn't do it, they're
1:30:50going, "Okay, but don't you think maybe
1:30:53you're just repressing that?" Well, no,
1:30:56I'm not repressing that. But now you're
1:30:57not asking me questions that are going
1:30:59to make me
1:31:01search deeper.
1:31:03And if they said, "Okay, so if they
1:31:05their answer then, if they do believe in
1:31:07me is I didn't do it. Okay, so how do
1:31:11you think you got into that situation
1:31:13knowing that you didn't do it? What led
1:31:15you to that road? What led you to that?
1:31:17So, if I could have anything, I would
1:31:19want a psychiatrist or a psychologist
1:31:23that believed me and wanted my mental
1:31:25health as opposed to
1:31:28supporting a case handed to them by
1:31:31somebody else. And And so, what would
1:31:33you if you had a counselor that believed
1:31:36you wholeheartedly, what would you work
1:31:38on with them then? Like, what are the
1:31:40things that you have identified in
1:31:42yourself that you need to work on with
1:31:44this counselor?
1:31:47Uh
1:31:49Wow.
1:31:50I I I I
1:31:52don't even know because most of it I
1:31:54I've talked with Dr. Rossi and Dr.
1:31:56Shoji. So, they actually, whether or not
1:31:59they believed in me, they sure
1:32:01they gave the appearance of believing in
1:32:03me.
1:32:03And so, that was healing.
1:32:05But even then, I didn't delve deep into
1:32:08I think what it would be is my own
1:32:12I can tell you one thing.
1:32:14The thing that makes me cry,
1:32:17the only thing about all of this that
1:32:19makes me cry, gut hard cry, is knowing
1:32:22that it was my fault.
1:32:24That's what I would want to deal with. I
1:32:26need to
1:32:28have somebody that I could talk to that
1:32:30would listen to me and would accept the
1:32:32fact
1:32:34number one that I'm
1:32:35I'm innocent of shooting, but that I am
1:32:38guilty
1:32:40of putting my children in danger.
1:32:43That I have never reconciled.
1:32:46Ever. Not through all the classes. I've
1:32:48never reconciled that. I can't.
1:32:51Cuz there's no excuse for it. There's no
1:32:53There's no changing it. There's no going
1:32:55back for it.
1:32:57There's
1:32:59And there's no forgiveness for that.
1:33:03So, I don't I don't want to forgive
1:33:05myself, but I
1:33:06I don't know. That's that's the only
1:33:07thing that sticks. That's the only thing
1:33:10that sticks that if I was to ever have a
1:33:12counselor,
1:33:14and like I said, Dr. McNeal has
1:33:16graciously offered to counsel me when I
1:33:18get out.
1:33:19That would be my thing
1:33:21is
1:33:22coming to terms when I'm alone in my
1:33:25shower, cuz that's the only place you're
1:33:27alone in here.
1:33:29That is the only thing that I really
1:33:31really struggle with. Everything else I
1:33:33have
1:33:37come to
1:33:38come to grips with,
1:33:42but not that because it can never be
1:33:44changed.
1:33:45It
1:33:46No matter how much we talk, no matter
1:33:48how many questions I'm asked, no matter
1:33:50how many times I sit before the board,
1:33:52that night is never going to change.
1:33:55And so, therefore,
1:33:57in my soul,
1:33:59it never goes away. It never gets
1:34:02reconciled. I don't even know that it
1:34:04can. Even if I had a psych, I'm not even
1:34:06sure that it could be
1:34:08cuz
1:34:13Okay. Thank you.
1:34:16All right. So, Ms. Downs, I I actually
1:34:17think that now probably is a good time
1:34:19to take a break. We're halfway through
1:34:21our topics. We have
1:34:23Um just so you know where we're going
1:34:25next. So, the next topic we're going to
1:34:27cover is disciplinary history.
1:34:29And then I'm going to combine two
1:34:30topics. We're going to talk about the
1:34:32psychological evaluations that you've
1:34:33taken and we have a few in the in the
1:34:35file. And we're going to talk about your
1:34:37criminal history together, all all in
1:34:39one topic uh in kind of one lump.
1:34:42And then we're going to cover at the
1:34:43last your parole plan and what your
1:34:44plans for your future are going to be.
1:34:47So, that's where we're going. And And we
1:34:49are about halfway through. So, let's
1:34:50let's take a break. Now, here's my
1:34:52question to you cuz I just don't know
1:34:53what the situation is there in
1:34:55California.
1:34:56How long does it I mean, how much time
1:34:59do you need if you need time to use the
1:35:00facility, get some water? Do you need
1:35:0210, 15 minutes? What does that look like
1:35:05there?
1:35:07Uh the bathroom is about
1:35:1020 paces that way and uh I don't drink
1:35:13water cuz I don't want to have to go to
1:35:14the bathroom. So, whatever you guys I
1:35:17will be sitting here when you come back.
1:35:19Okay. Okay.
1:35:20>> Well, in that case
1:35:22>> If you don't If something happens and
1:35:24you don't come back, I will go get the
1:35:26officer if this screen goes black cuz
1:35:27it's happened before. I will go get the
1:35:29officer and he'll put you back on. Okay,
1:35:31perfect. I appreciate that very much.
1:35:33So, let's go ahead and take an 11-minute
1:35:35break. We'll come back on the record at
1:35:3810:35
1:35:39a.m. And with that, we'll be off the
1:35:41record until then. Just so you know, Ms.
1:35:43Downs, we might still be able to hear
1:35:44you on your side, so just just heads up.
1:35:46Okay, that that was going to be my
1:35:48question. I don't know if my attorney
1:35:50wants to talk to me during the break or
1:35:52if she's good and um
1:35:54I'm good. Well, if if that's the case,
1:35:56that's for you to work out with
1:35:58you know, with the California staff to
1:35:59try and figure out a means to do that. I
1:36:01don't I don't have the capacity to
1:36:02figure that out for y'all. So, that's up
1:36:04to y'all to figure Okay.
1:36:05Diane, if you can ask the officer if
1:36:07there's a way we can talk on the phone,
1:36:08that would be immensely helpful, but we
1:36:10can't talk on the phone.
1:36:12Give me your phone Give me your phone
1:36:13call real quick cuz I don't have it on
1:36:14me.
1:36:16Uh 503-490-0777.
1:36:20Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Sounds
1:36:23good. Thanks. Okay. And we'll come back
1:36:24in 10 minutes now. Thank you very much.
1:36:26Thanks.
1:36:27Thank you.
1:36:32All right, Ms. Downs, we're back on the
1:36:33record. Can you still hear me?
1:36:35I can. Okay, good. Um Ms. Mayhew, I um I
1:36:39hope you're back with us and you can
1:36:41hear me. If you can just let me know
1:36:42that you can.
1:36:44Yes, I'm here. Thank you.
1:36:46>> Okay. Okay, thank you. And Ms. Mayhew, I
1:36:48just want to let you know the email um
1:36:51request for the set over specifying your
1:36:54objection that was sent at 7:38 um a.m.
1:36:57this morning, I'm going to include that
1:36:58officially in the record to go along
1:37:00with your oral objection.
1:37:02So, you don't have a problem with that?
1:37:06Thanks very much. Okay. All right, thank
1:37:07you.
1:37:10All right. So, Ms. Downs, we're going to
1:37:12um turn to your disciplinary conduct. Um
1:37:15I have a a few questions about some of
1:37:17the
1:37:19Yeah, go ahead. Can I Can I say one
1:37:21thing?
1:37:22It
1:37:23that I remembered what the $1,200 where
1:37:25she read that cuz she's going to go
1:37:27crazy. One of the members is going to go
1:37:29crazy looking for that $1,200. That was
1:37:31my my past parole board hearing. I had
1:37:33money back then.
1:37:35So,
1:37:36I don't, but I have family support. My
1:37:39family, they're all fighting over who
1:37:41gets to bring me home like a puppy. So,
1:37:43I have family support. My You have the
1:37:45letter from my brother. He wants to um
1:37:48get me He wants to show me. He wants to
1:37:50teach me how the world is now and he has
1:37:52a home. He has a big home. And my mom
1:37:55has four bedrooms. So, I have family
1:37:58support. I'm not going to be destitute
1:38:00and I won't be on the street for sure.
1:38:02So, but for that member's sake, that's
1:38:05where the $1,200 was from my last parole
1:38:07board hearing. I had a bank account back
1:38:09then. Okay. So, it was a house prison
1:38:11account. So, all right. Okay, thank you
1:38:14for letting us know that, Ms. Downs.
1:38:15Again, we're going to you know, the last
1:38:16topic we're covering today is your
1:38:17parole plan. So,
1:38:19um if that board member has any
1:38:20follow-ups, I'm sure she'll ask them
1:38:22when we get to that section. Okay. All
1:38:24right. So, for disciplinary conduct, I
1:38:25have some questions about specific
1:38:27disciplinary episodes and I'm just
1:38:29curious to hear kind of your side of the
1:38:32story on some of these. So, in 1985 is
1:38:35when you obtained a DR for
1:38:37attempt to commit, possess, or
1:38:39manufacture the use of dangerous
1:38:40contraband. That's the DR where you were
1:38:42found to be involved in participating in
1:38:44drug trafficking in the institution. I'm
1:38:46just curious, can you tell me more about
1:38:47what happened in that incident?
1:38:51Uh
1:38:52First of all, do you actually have the
1:38:53DR? Can you Do you have it? Or do you
1:38:57just have somebody's version of it? So,
1:38:59I have exactly what you have in that
1:39:01hearings packet that we sent to you.
1:39:03That's exactly what we're
1:39:04>> Right. Right. Right. Right. You don't
1:39:05actually have the DR.
1:39:07There was a male inmate in the Oregon
1:39:09prison
1:39:11who
1:39:12was He was a trafficker in the men's
1:39:14prison
1:39:15and he alleged that I wrote him a letter
1:39:20about
1:39:22bringing drugs from his prison into our
1:39:26prison. It had nothing to do with the
1:39:28visiting room.
1:39:29And according because they gave me a
1:39:32copy of the the alleged letter.
1:39:35Um it had nothing to do with the
1:39:37visiting room.
1:39:38I
1:39:40did not write that letter. He was
1:39:42getting in trouble. He was being busted
1:39:44and he figured if he could throw heat
1:39:45off on Diane Downs and that he's the
1:39:48good guy because look, I'm trying to
1:39:49help take down drug dealers. He thought
1:39:52he was going to get himself out of
1:39:53trouble and he did by the way. He did
1:39:55not go to adseg. I went to adseg.
1:39:57But if they if the staff had truly if
1:40:00the warden of Oregon State Penitentiary
1:40:03really believed that I was doing that,
1:40:05he would
1:40:06that warden would not have allowed me to
1:40:08walk from my women's prison to the men's
1:40:10prison to go to college to get my
1:40:12associate's degree.
1:40:14He would never have allowed me in that
1:40:16prison and and that man that same man to
1:40:20be on the prison floor with me. So
1:40:22clearly
1:40:23not even they believed it at that time.
1:40:26So I did not write that letter. I and it
1:40:29had nothing to do even the letter itself
1:40:32as bogus as it was even that letter did
1:40:35not talk about bringing drugs into the
1:40:37prison.
1:40:38It was about I think the letter said
1:40:41something to the effect of I wanted
1:40:44uh heroin for a friend of mine. I didn't
1:40:48have any friends in the Oregon prison.
1:40:50So
1:40:51how is this supposed to happen? Oregon
1:40:53prison was not amenable to me. I did not
1:40:56have friends there.
1:40:58Okay. So it sounds like that you kind of
1:41:00can you contest that you were involved
1:41:02in bringing drugs into the women's
1:41:05prison. Did I get that correctly?
1:41:07Absolutely. Okay.
1:41:09Um and then in 1987, that is when as as
1:41:12we know you
1:41:13escaped from the institution. Can you
1:41:15just let the board members know why you
1:41:18chose to do that?
1:41:21My
1:41:22I had just received
1:41:25an affirmed without opinion an AWOC from
1:41:27the court of appeals on my on my direct
1:41:29appeal.
1:41:30And I believe at that time we also got
1:41:35the Supreme Court decision that we came
1:41:36down. I think the AWOC came down in
1:41:39February and the Supreme Court denied
1:41:41review in May of '87 and the media
1:41:45called me and said, "So how does it feel
1:41:48to know that you're never going home?" I
1:41:50said, "I don't know what you're talking
1:41:51about cuz my attorney did not tell me
1:41:53that I had lost my appeal." But I had to
1:41:55find out through the media.
1:41:57And
1:41:59so I thought that was it and we somebody
1:42:03had found a suspect in the case and
1:42:07had got that person had gone to the
1:42:09police and asked the police if they
1:42:11would investigate the suspect in the
1:42:13case because the police said they
1:42:15couldn't find a suspect. The police
1:42:17said, "As far as we're concerned, the
1:42:18case is closed."
1:42:20And so
1:42:21I left prison because I figured
1:42:25I would go find the suspect and do
1:42:28whatever I needed tape record him
1:42:30whatever it whatever was required to get
1:42:32his confession. And so there was I
1:42:37there was a girl
1:42:39What's her username? It's in the police
1:42:41reports which apparently you don't have.
1:42:43Uh there was a girl that told me, "My
1:42:45ex-husband will help you go find this
1:42:47guy." Cuz I was talking to her. I was
1:42:49frustrated. And she said, "Yeah, I my
1:42:53ex-husband will help you go find this
1:42:55guy."
1:42:56And because like I said, I wasn't liked
1:42:58in the Oregon prison and this girl was
1:42:59being nice to me and of course
1:43:01being the codependent person that I was
1:43:04and young and stupid, I trusted her and
1:43:07so I went to go see her ex-husband. He
1:43:11did not have a car.
1:43:12He had a bicycle, a 10-speed bicycle.
1:43:15She didn't tell me that part.
1:43:17And so there you go. That was why I left
1:43:20because there was a suspect in the case
1:43:22and I was going to go find this suspect.
1:43:25Um okay. That's helpful. When you when
1:43:28you did that, did you have an idea of
1:43:30who you believed the suspect was?
1:43:33Yes and it was not it was a suspect. It
1:43:36was the suspect that I had picked out of
1:43:38a photo lineup. The police gave me his
1:43:40name
1:43:41and so I had told this reporter and the
1:43:44reporter found this No.
1:43:46The reporter allegedly found this person
1:43:49in Seaside.
1:43:51I did not know there is a Seaside,
1:43:52Oregon.
1:43:54Apparently so I was headed to Seaside,
1:43:56California thinking that was the Seaside
1:43:59that he was in California. That's where
1:44:01I thought I was going to go and this
1:44:03girl's ex-husband was going to drive me
1:44:05there and she had this whole plan. It
1:44:07was all worked out because Diane, if you
1:44:09don't do this, you're never going to see
1:44:11your children ever again in life. And it
1:44:14broke my heart and she had a plan and so
1:44:17I executed it and there you go. That was
1:44:20it.
1:44:23That was
1:44:24Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah.
1:44:26I I was stupid. It was stupid.
1:44:29I I got as far as his house and that was
1:44:31it. I There that was it. There's it was
1:44:34stupid. And when they came to get me, I
1:44:36gave myself up and I came back to prison
1:44:39and I never
1:44:41I never
1:44:44There you go.
1:44:46I I we did not find a suspect until the
1:44:49suspect the person who's been committing
1:44:51who's been confessing. We did not find
1:44:53him until 1993.
1:44:56So in 1987,
1:44:57it was a waste.
1:44:59Okay. And who is the person in 1993 that
1:45:01you now believe
1:45:03like you found is the perpetrator?
1:45:06Well, he confessed.
1:45:08He's confessed to numerous people.
1:45:11He's bragged about it.
1:45:13This man has a prison record going from
1:45:15the '70s. His first assault his first
1:45:17crime and his first prison record was
1:45:19assault. His latest last one in 2006 was
1:45:23for assault. The man has been committing
1:45:25violence against Oregon citizens for
1:45:2930, 40 years, 50 years.
1:45:32And well, 40 years.
1:45:34And he's the one that confessed.
1:45:36So and he fits the composite not just
1:45:39mine but Christie's.
1:45:41So And and again, who is that though?
1:45:43I'm confused who that actually is. Oh.
1:45:46See, I'm sorry.
1:45:47I used my daughter's name. I apologize.
1:45:49Uh-huh.
1:45:50Um his name was James Claire Haines.
1:45:53James Claire Haines.
1:45:56Um so in 1989 so May of 1989, you were
1:46:00in New Jersey um institutions and you
1:46:05um received a disciplinary for attempt
1:46:07or planning to escape.
1:46:09Um can you tell me what happened in that
1:46:12incident?
1:46:14Yes.
1:46:16Um
1:46:17a guy named Robert Seiver wrote to me.
1:46:22He wanted to he wanted me
1:46:24I have to go back. After my escape after
1:46:26I came back from my escape a guy named
1:46:29John Budkey
1:46:30contacted me and wanted me to sign a
1:46:35uh release for a media release so that
1:46:38he could sell so that he could
1:46:42He wanted me to sign a media release for
1:46:43Motown Pictures.
1:46:45I refused.
1:46:47So then he said, "Well,
1:46:50do a media release for me and I'll find
1:46:52somebody else if you don't like Motown
1:46:54Pictures." I said, "I don't want any
1:46:55movie made at all. I'm not signing any
1:46:57release."
1:46:59Then they shipped me off to New Jersey.
1:47:00The
1:47:01CDC ODC Oregon Department of Corrections
1:47:05sent me to New Jersey
1:47:06and while I was there the second year a
1:47:09guy named Robert Seiver wrote to me and
1:47:11said
1:47:13uh I want to be your friend. Okay.
1:47:16And he goes, "I think we should you
1:47:18should sign a media release so that we
1:47:21can do your movie."
1:47:23No.
1:47:24So then he wrote and said, "I think we
1:47:26should get married. That way I can sell
1:47:29the story as your husband."
1:47:31No.
1:47:32Well, maybe I should come and visit you.
1:47:33So he moved to New Jersey
1:47:36and was here for 6 weeks. He came to
1:47:38visit me weekly.
1:47:40And every time he said
1:47:43"My friend John
1:47:44again, John Budkey my friend John says
1:47:47that he can make a lot of money for us."
1:47:49No. I'm not interested in a movie. I'm
1:47:51not interested in making money. My
1:47:53parents take care of me. I don't need
1:47:55that.
1:47:56He stayed on me for 6 weeks and the very
1:47:59last day that he came, he goes, "John
1:48:01says this is your last chance. He wants
1:48:03you to sign the media release and if you
1:48:04won't do it
1:48:06then you're just going to be in a lot of
1:48:08trouble." And I said, "How much more
1:48:10trouble could I be in?"
1:48:12He left and went immediately to
1:48:15um
1:48:15investigative services unit ISU. I don't
1:48:18know if you have the equivalent in
1:48:20Oregon but he went to the
1:48:22basically the warden and said, "Diane's
1:48:24planning to escape and I'm going to help
1:48:26her."
1:48:29I did not know he was doing this until
1:48:31the correctional officer's captain came
1:48:34to snatch me up and put me in adseg and
1:48:36I said, "What am I doing now? What have
1:48:39I been accused of now?"
1:48:41And they said, "You and Robert Seiver
1:48:43were planning to escape." I said, "We
1:48:45were not." So the district attorney's
1:48:47office
1:48:48stepped in in late in that in New
1:48:51Jersey.
1:48:52They gave Robert Seiver a polygraph
1:48:54test. He failed.
1:48:57Then the district attorney
1:48:59wanted to talk to me on the phone. They
1:49:00pulled me out of my cell. They put me in
1:49:02a little office. They gave me the phone.
1:49:04I talked to to man. I know his voice. I
1:49:07I recognize his voice and
1:49:10after we finished talking, he asked me a
1:49:11lot of questions about my visiting with
1:49:14Seaver, everything that we're doing
1:49:15here.
1:49:17And then I hung up the phone and nobody
1:49:18came to take me back to my cell.
1:49:20And so I opened the door, looked down
1:49:23the hallway. It's a very small unit.
1:49:25Looked down the hallway and I heard that
1:49:26same man's voice. He had been talking to
1:49:29me from the cop shop from at the end of
1:49:30the hall.
1:49:32And he said he did not see me open the
1:49:34door. The officers didn't see me open
1:49:36the door. And I heard him say, "This
1:49:39woman, there is no reason and no
1:49:41evidence to believe this woman is
1:49:42planning to escape. I refuse to bring
1:49:44charges against her."
1:49:46I went
1:49:47"Okay." So I said, "Hello." And they
1:49:50came and got me, put me back in my cell,
1:49:52charged me with planning to escape,
1:49:54found me guilty institution. I did a
1:49:56year in ad seg behind that. But there
1:49:59were no state charges brought against me
1:50:01because the prosecutor said there is no
1:50:04reason and no evidence to believe this
1:50:05is true.
1:50:07Okay. And I So what I have and I just I
1:50:11want to make sure I'm getting this
1:50:12correctly. So what I have is that
1:50:15he said
1:50:17Let's see. That letters and transcripts
1:50:20you had given him by the mail.
1:50:23This is from the report. Wanting him to
1:50:24purchase in preparation for an escape.
1:50:26Mr. Seaver voluntarily agreed to a
1:50:28polygraph examination. Mr. Seaver
1:50:30reported that they had discussed
1:50:31numerous escape plans. Some of the plans
1:50:33included that he would hire a helicopter
1:50:35and force the pilot at gunpoint land in
1:50:37the south hall yard while Ms. Downs is
1:50:39on the recreation yard. It goes on to
1:50:41say Ms. Downs had given him a piece of
1:50:42paper which were listed yard times. He
1:50:45also discussed a plan where he would
1:50:46enter the facility undetected via route
1:50:4978 and would conceal a weapon near the
1:50:51visiting trailer. He would then retrieve
1:50:53the concealed weapon when he visited
1:50:54her. He indicated he would hire someone
1:50:56to assist in the escape, but he wanted
1:50:58to do the quote legwork unquote in
1:51:00preparation for the escape.
1:51:02Um
1:51:03So that's what a lot of what the report
1:51:05is saying, right? And so it sounds like
1:51:07you're contesting
1:51:09that information or those facts. Is that
1:51:10correct? That was That was the report
1:51:13given by somebody who knew nothing about
1:51:15the New Jersey State Prison.
1:51:17There is no yard time. There is whenever
1:51:21the staff feel like to take you out,
1:51:22they'll take you out. And there is a
1:51:25gunner and that's when they can get a
1:51:27gunner to sit on the outside of the
1:51:29fence. It's a small yard. It's
1:51:31[Music]
1:51:32I don't know if you've ever seen the
1:51:34OWCC yard. It's It's roughly the same
1:51:36It's half the size of the OWCC yard.
1:51:39Um he sits there with his shotgun
1:51:42drawn and cocked at all times.
1:51:46I could never know what day I was going
1:51:48to go to yard. I could never know what
1:51:49time I was going to go to yard. And
1:51:51there's always an armed guard sitting
1:51:53there watching us in an area that is
1:51:55that is roughly the size of
1:51:58six living rooms. The size of your of
1:52:01your from what I can see of your office
1:52:02right there. Right there. He made that
1:52:05up. I never told him that. He made that
1:52:07up. Clearly it was false.
1:52:10Um
1:52:11He also said that he wanted to go hire
1:52:14to to get a helicopter.
1:52:15That wasn't me. He wanted to go get
1:52:18friends to help him do this. That wasn't
1:52:20me. Everything he said was about him.
1:52:22And that's why when the prosecutor gave
1:52:24him the polygraph test, he failed
1:52:26because he made the whole thing up. The
1:52:28whole thing was fabricated.
1:52:31The
1:52:32The whole thing was fabricated.
1:52:35Okay.
1:52:36Um so you know
1:52:38I just I'm cu- I'm a little curious. I
1:52:39want to make sure I'm understanding this
1:52:41correctly. So So in 1987 when you
1:52:44escaped, you were in the home you were
1:52:46found in a home with a few different
1:52:47people.
1:52:48And one of the individuals I thought I
1:52:50saw his last name was Sei- Seifert?
1:52:53Seifert. And then this individual is
1:52:55Seaver. Is this the same person
1:52:57from You would think you would think
1:52:59that, but it's not.
1:53:01Seifert, S E I F
1:53:04E R T was 1987.
1:53:08Seaver, S E A V E R was in 19
1:53:14uh 92.
1:53:1892?
1:53:19I don't know.
1:53:21I could look it up, but it would take
1:53:22time. It would waste time.
1:53:23Uh but 92. The The Seaver is S E A V E
1:53:27R. Now the only commonality between them
1:53:30is
1:53:31uh
1:53:32John
1:53:33uh um John Budkey. His name is John
1:53:37Stevens.
1:53:38And John Stevens, the woman Louise, may
1:53:41as well just throw Louise out there.
1:53:43Louise is the one that was Wayne
1:53:46Seifert's ex-wife.
1:53:48And she left Wayne for John Stevens. So
1:53:52John Stevens and John Budkey are the
1:53:54same person and he was the commonality.
1:53:56He was the one that came to the prison,
1:53:58checked my prison visiting record. John
1:54:01Stevens is the one that came and wanted
1:54:03me to sign a release form and I wouldn't
1:54:05do it. So
1:54:07they're basically tied together. They've
1:54:09They had just been trying and trying and
1:54:10trying
1:54:12to get me to sign a release form so that
1:54:14they could do a movie and I refused.
1:54:17Um to basically to release Motown. They
1:54:20were going to sell sell my contract to
1:54:22Motown so Motown would not be sued. I
1:54:25didn't sue Motown anyway. But
1:54:28that doesn't stop other people from
1:54:29doing what they want. Okay. Well what do
1:54:31you When you look back on that 1989 DR,
1:54:34what do you think he did wrong in that
1:54:36instance?
1:54:39Trust.
1:54:41I'm sorry. Trust. I I believed when when
1:54:45Robert Seaver wrote to me and he goes,
1:54:49"I just want to be your friend." Okay.
1:54:51Well
1:54:53I I believed him. I just believed him.
1:54:56Everybody wants to have someone that
1:54:58believes in them. My family believes in
1:55:00me. My family supports me. But I just
1:55:05I just don't want
1:55:08Nobody wants to be alone. Nobody wants
1:55:11to be
1:55:13reviled.
1:55:15Everybody wants to be believed.
1:55:18And when he wrote and said he believed
1:55:19in me, I believed him.
1:55:22I was dumb. I was still
1:55:25inexperienced in the ways of prison
1:55:27because in Oregon nobody liked me, so I
1:55:29didn't really learn anything except to
1:55:32avoid the the verbal punches. I didn't
1:55:35learn anything. I didn't learn anything
1:55:38until I came here and I had friends who
1:55:40said, "Diane,
1:55:42stop being a dumbass."
1:55:44Okay.
1:55:46So they're real with me here. They tell
1:55:48me, "If you're messing up, they're going
1:55:49to tell you you're messing up."
1:55:51So yeah.
1:55:54All right. Well thank you. And then in
1:55:551991, so that's when you had another
1:55:59again also I believe in New Jersey,
1:56:01another attempt to plan escape
1:56:03DR. Um can you tell me what happened in
1:56:07that instance?
1:56:09Yes.
1:56:10I was
1:56:12minding my own business in my cell and
1:56:14they came and pulled me out, put me in
1:56:16ad seg and I said, "Now what?"
1:56:19They said that I was planning to escape
1:56:21with an officer.
1:56:24And that I had a
1:56:26uh light blue denim romper, sleeveless
1:56:31romper
1:56:33which was thigh high. No legs. It was
1:56:36thigh high.
1:56:37And that I could, if I wanted to,
1:56:41transform that light blue sleeveless
1:56:44denim romper into a navy blue polyester
1:56:47officer's uniform and escape.
1:56:51There's no way that is going to happen.
1:56:53There was no dye in my room. There were
1:56:56no slee- no sleeves on the romper. There
1:56:59were no legs on the romper. And even if
1:57:02I had a an officer's uniform, everybody
1:57:05knew my face. I lived in the max max
1:57:08unit.
1:57:09Visitors had to come to my unit. Chow
1:57:12came to my unit. I could not leave that
1:57:15unit except under armed guard.
1:57:17Everybody knew There was only 36 people
1:57:20living in that unit. 36 prisoners in
1:57:22that unit. There's no way I was going to
1:57:24walk out of that prison in a light blue
1:57:27sleeveless denim romper.
1:57:29But they still found me guilty
1:57:32and and put me away. I had that romper
1:57:35for 2 years.
1:57:36They still found me guilty and I did
1:57:38another year in ad seg.
1:57:41So the the report I have indicates that
1:57:44some of the items that were
1:57:47the basis for the DR were concealed
1:57:50under books or on a desk shelf and in
1:57:52your closet.
1:57:54So I guess I'm kind of curious why
1:57:56concealed why they were concealed.
1:57:59They were not concealed. Living in in
1:58:02New Jersey, each cell is like a
1:58:04submarine cell.
1:58:06You walk in the door, there is a closet
1:58:09on the one side and there is a bed on
1:58:12the other side and next to the closet is
1:58:15a green metal shelf. There are no doors.
1:58:19There are no curtains. There's and then
1:58:21there's a toilet.
1:58:22There is nothing. There's no nothing to
1:58:24conceal.
1:58:26The drawer the the
1:58:28shelf, it's a desk so that you could sit
1:58:30at the desk and you could write letters
1:58:32if you wanted to.
1:58:34It has open
1:58:36a drawer space. It has one drawer space
1:58:38that is probably a foot and a half tall
1:58:41by a foot wide with no no door on the
1:58:44front. And everything that you own is
1:58:47stacked on there. All of your clothes
1:58:49you hang you can hang what you can hang
1:58:50in the closet and everything else, your
1:58:52jeans or whatever, your t-shirts are
1:58:55folded and put on that shelf. Everything
1:58:57is on that shelf. That's where the
1:58:58romper was. There's nothing to be the
1:59:01the books, the books were underneath
1:59:04because they don't sit on top of the
1:59:06clothes and wrinkle them. The books were
1:59:07underneath the the and it was like two
1:59:11books. It was two books and they were
1:59:13underneath the clothes. There's no way
1:59:15to conceal anything in that room.
1:59:18No way.
1:59:19Man, I wish I had a picture to show you.
1:59:22I really wish I had a picture to show
1:59:23you. All right. So, when you when you
1:59:25look back on that, what do you think you
1:59:26did wrong in this instance?
1:59:30What I did wrong? Nothing.
1:59:33There was nothing that I could have
1:59:35done.
1:59:36There was no way to foresee this. I can
1:59:38tell you what I did after the fact. My
1:59:40brother got photographs of the officer's
1:59:42uniforms. I'll send them to you if you
1:59:44want them to show you a copy of the
1:59:46disciplinary report. I don't know if you
1:59:48have a copy of the disciplinary report,
1:59:51but I will send you a copy of the dis
1:59:52Since you're not going to do you're not
1:59:54going to make a ruling for another 30
1:59:55days. I can send you a copy of the
1:59:57disciplinary report that shows light
2:00:00blue denim romper, sleeveless, and a
2:00:03photograph of an officer wearing his
2:00:05uniform. I can send these if you would
2:00:07like to have them. It's your choice. So,
2:00:10that you can see the truth. I don't know
2:00:12what I could have done. The romper was
2:00:13legal. I had it for 2 years. I I just I
2:00:17don't know what I could have done
2:00:19differently. Okay.
2:00:21Um and then there's one more
2:00:22disciplinary that I want to talk about.
2:00:25Um actually, sorry, two more. So, in in
2:00:271991,
2:00:29um you also had a
2:00:33uh in Oregon,
2:00:36wait, let me double-check my dates. 1991
2:00:38disciplinary. Possessing, manufacturing,
2:00:41or use of dangerous contraband escape
2:00:43device and they say you were in
2:00:44possession of a diagram of the facility,
2:00:48um outlining the perimeter fence,
2:00:50cameras along the back of the perimeter
2:00:52yard, multi-purpose building, control
2:00:54center, and location of yourself,
2:00:56facility buildings, etc.
2:00:58Um I'm just curious, can you talk to me
2:01:00a little bit about what happened in that
2:01:01instance?
2:01:03Yes.
2:01:04I was
2:01:07watching TV. No, I wasn't. I wasn't
2:01:09watching TV that day. I was sitting
2:01:10there reading a book. And Sandra Poole
2:01:13opened the door and she said, "Give me
2:01:16that piece of paper." I said, "What
2:01:18piece of paper?" She said, "The one
2:01:19that's on your desk." I said, "Okay." It
2:01:21was on my desk. That's how she saw it. I
2:01:23wasn't hiding it. It wasn't anything. I
2:01:25was drawing a floor plan because I was
2:01:28going to court for
2:01:31uh um my post-conviction hearing
2:01:33and I was going to be
2:01:36going home. I had absolutely Ever all
2:01:39the evidence that we had absolutely
2:01:41stood in my favor.
2:01:43And so, I was going home. I was drawing
2:01:45a floor plan because that's what I do
2:01:47when I back then, that's what I used to
2:01:49do when I stress is I draw floor plans.
2:01:52I had done it since I was a child. I
2:01:54don't know why, but that's my
2:01:56de-stresser.
2:01:58It was not a floor plan of the prison.
2:02:00If somebody was going to help me escape,
2:02:03it would be easier to help me escape on
2:02:05the way to court. It would be
2:02:07easier. It It It
2:02:10Everybody knew which cell was mine. I
2:02:12had been because they made a special
2:02:14cell for me. It had bars on the window.
2:02:17It was a a screen mesh on the window.
2:02:20The prison
2:02:22everybody can approach it from any side
2:02:24without trouble.
2:02:25That I had been gone from that prison
2:02:27for 3 years. If I was going to try to
2:02:29teach somebody how to help me escape
2:02:31from that prison,
2:02:33I would not have waited until I got to
2:02:35the prison to and I never sent it in I
2:02:37never sent the diagram in the mail.
2:02:40There was This was not an attempt. It
2:02:43was a floor plan for a house.
2:02:46Now, you're going to ask me, what did I
2:02:48do wrong?
2:02:49I should never have drawn a floor floor
2:02:51plan of a house.
2:02:53There you go. But, it it didn't even
2:02:55look like the prison. I wish they would
2:02:56give you these things. All they give you
2:02:58is they give you these little
2:02:59statements, but they don't give you the
2:03:00evidence to look at. It doesn't look
2:03:02anything like ODWCC.
2:03:04Nothing.
2:03:06Okay.
2:03:07And then lastly, Ms. Downs, I'm curious
2:03:09about the 1994.
2:03:13This was California DR
2:03:16for attempted escape. This is when they
2:03:19observed that the caulk mortar and
2:03:21caulking from the area around the cell
2:03:23window had been peeled and shipped away.
2:03:25Can you talk to me about that instance?
2:03:28>> Yes, I can.
2:03:30When I arrived in the Oregon prison,
2:03:32they moved me from cell to cell every 3
2:03:35months.
2:03:37That was because I was an involuntary
2:03:40a non-disciplinary escape risk ad seg
2:03:43prisoner. So, every 3 months they moved
2:03:45me to a different cell so that I
2:03:47wouldn't get comfortable or whatever.
2:03:49Every time I went into the cell, this By
2:03:51this time, this was like my fourth cell.
2:03:54By the time I got there, I knew the
2:03:56first thing you have to do, they hand
2:03:57you a paper and you write down
2:03:59everything that's broken. Does the water
2:04:01work? Does the electricity work?
2:04:03Whatever. And so, you put it in and the
2:04:05officer puts in a work order to have it
2:04:07repaired. So, when I walked in, I was
2:04:10putting my hands back through the food
2:04:12port for Officer Molina to take my
2:04:14handcuffs off and when I looked up, I
2:04:16could see the window. I said, "Molina,
2:04:18the caulking is out of this window." She
2:04:21goes, "Where?" So, she didn't take the
2:04:23cuffs off. She opened the door. She had
2:04:25me standby. She went in. She looked at
2:04:27the window and she goes, "These dumb
2:04:29asses." Sorry, I'm just repeating.
2:04:31I said, "What?" She goes, "They She
2:04:34says, your room now looks down on the
2:04:36yard, the the shoe yard, the the
2:04:38security housing unit yard. These girls
2:04:41pulled the caulking out so they can talk
2:04:43to their friends on the yard because
2:04:44they're not allowed to have yard
2:04:45together."
2:04:47She said, "I'll put it in a work order.
2:04:51Just write it down on the on the work
2:04:53order so that I can make a work order."
2:04:56So, I did. Caulking uh
2:04:586 in of caulking was removed. Now, the
2:05:00window
2:05:01is 3 in wide. Can you see my face? The
2:05:04window is 3 in wide.
2:05:06The caulking was around the window. Even
2:05:09if the window itself was removed, my
2:05:12head was not going through that.
2:05:14So, she wrote up the report and a story.
2:05:18About a month later, there was an
2:05:21officer that was harassing a girl in the
2:05:23next cell.
2:05:24And I told sexually harassing her. And
2:05:27when he took me to shower, I said,
2:05:29"Leave her alone or I will tell the
2:05:31sergeant what you're doing."
2:05:33He put me in my shower.
2:05:35When I came back, he said, "I'm writing
2:05:37you up for attempting to escape." I
2:05:38said,
2:05:39"How?" He said, "That caulking is
2:05:42missing. You're trying to escape." I
2:05:43said, "The window is 3 in wide. I'm
2:05:47not that skinny. My head's not."
2:05:50He wrote me anyway. The sergeant heard
2:05:52my 115 that disciplinary report. The
2:05:55sergeant heard my DR.
2:05:58He said,
2:06:00"Molina, I told him Molina wrote it in
2:06:02the art in the um
2:06:04uh
2:06:06damage report."
2:06:08He says, "I don't care about the damage
2:06:09report. The officer's done it. He said
2:06:11it. I believe him. You're guilty." I
2:06:14appealed that finding all the way to
2:06:16Sacramento. Sacramento overturned the
2:06:19115 that disciplinary report because the
2:06:22sergeant cannot hear that
2:06:25uh punishment. A lieutenant has to hear
2:06:28that disciplinary report. I won it on a
2:06:30technicality. Went back to the
2:06:32lieutenant. He now hears me on the
2:06:34disciplinary report. I told him the same
2:06:37thing I told the sergeant. He said,
2:06:39"Where is this
2:06:40um damage report?" I said, "Right there
2:06:42in that box." He said, "Okay." He got
2:06:45up, walked over, opened the box, pulled
2:06:47it out. He goes, "Oh my god, Molina
2:06:49wrote it in red." I said, "Yes."
2:06:52He said, "How did this guy not see it?"
2:06:55I said, "Because he didn't look."
2:06:57He said, "Not guilty. You didn't pull
2:06:59that caulking. It was already there.
2:07:00Molina dated it in red. The day that it
2:07:03was The day you moved in is the day the
2:07:04caulking was already missing." And uh
2:07:06so, I was found not guilty.
2:07:08They were supposed to pull that
2:07:10disciplinary report from my file, but
2:07:12apparently they haven't. There is a
2:07:15128 chrono somewhere in my file that
2:07:18shows why the lieutenant found me not
2:07:21guilty on appeal
2:07:23for the very reason that I just told
2:07:25you. It would be easier just to pull it,
2:07:27but they didn't. So.
2:07:29There you go.
2:07:30All right. Well, thank you, Ms. Downs. I
2:07:32think that covers the questions I have
2:07:33for you on your disciplinary history.
2:07:35So, let me check in with Ms. Cleaver to
2:07:36see if she has any questions.
2:07:40Um I have a
2:07:41a couple of questions.
2:07:44So,
2:07:46in 1987,
2:07:50did you when you escaped, did you have
2:07:52the name of the person that you believe
2:07:55is the the killer?
2:07:58Yes. Okay.
2:07:59So, you escape and you go to this
2:08:03person's house.
2:08:05Yes. And
2:08:07what did you do? Because you stayed
2:08:09there. You didn't go to California. You
2:08:12didn't go to Seaside, Oregon. So, what
2:08:14did you do?
2:08:17I stayed there and when I got there,
2:08:20Wayne had I told him, uh "Louise sent
2:08:25me. She said that you will help me get
2:08:26to California."
2:08:28He pointed to his 10-speed bicycle and
2:08:30he said, "How? I don't have a tandem."
2:08:36What can you do? Then there was a
2:08:3714-state manhunt. I didn't have a backup
2:08:42plan. I did not call my family. I was
2:08:44not going to incorporate my family in
2:08:46any of this.
2:08:47And there was nothing to do but sit and
2:08:50wait. And I knew that somebody would
2:08:53come and get me eventually. And they
2:08:55did.
2:08:57So. Louise told them where I was.
2:08:59She waited a week and then she told them
2:09:02because she knew my fingerprint this is
2:09:04what she told me after I got back.
2:09:07She said I would I thought you'd be
2:09:09gone. I waited a week so that um you
2:09:11would be gone and your fingerprints
2:09:12would be there and Wayne would get in
2:09:14trouble.
2:09:15Okay, so this was an elaborate plan by
2:09:20Louise.
2:09:21>> No,
2:09:21Louise. To get her ex-husband in
2:09:25trouble?
2:09:26>> In trouble. Yeah. Okay.
2:09:28>> That's what the police report That's
2:09:29what the They don't ever give you any of
2:09:31the reports. That's what the police
2:09:32report said.
2:09:33>> Well, you just
2:09:34>> report. You just told me that's what she
2:09:36told you. She told me through the window
2:09:39and I got all the police reports. I know
2:09:41everything that every officer was doing
2:09:43when I went over the fence. None of
2:09:45those were confidential. Every single
2:09:47one of those. And so I know at least
2:09:49Louise Louise told me through the window
2:09:52and I know what the police reports all
2:09:54say.
2:09:56Oh okay, so I guess
2:10:00but you wanted to escape, right?
2:10:04Yes. Okay.
2:10:06And so this was as much your plan as it
2:10:10was
2:10:11Louise's plan, correct?
2:10:13>> Oh Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes.
2:10:16>> So even if this was some sort of plan by
2:10:20Louise to make her ex-husband look bad,
2:10:23you still wanted
2:10:25to escape and did escape.
2:10:28Yeah, she had her reason, I had my
2:10:30reason. Yes. So when you got to the
2:10:33house and you realized uh there was no
2:10:35way to get to California, why didn't you
2:10:39turn yourself in at that point?
2:10:42I didn't like prison.
2:10:45I Sorry, I I just
2:10:48There's no
2:10:49I'm not making light of it. Prison is a
2:10:51horrible horrible horrible place.
2:10:54And
2:10:57it was just awful. I
2:10:59No one wants No, no, no, that's not
2:11:00true. There are people who like being in
2:11:02prison.
2:11:03I didn't like being in prison.
2:11:06Okay.
2:11:08And then
2:11:09you talked about the 1989 attempted
2:11:12escape
2:11:13with
2:11:15and I'm going to be honest that it there
2:11:17was a couple of things about it that um
2:11:19were a little confusing to me.
2:11:21So
2:11:24you said that
2:11:26John Stevens and John Budkey are the
2:11:30same person?
2:11:32Oh, yeah.
2:11:33Oh, yeah.
2:11:34Yes, they are.
2:11:35>> Okay.
2:11:36So you first met John Stevens when?
2:11:40He came after I returned from my escape
2:11:43he came to the visiting room to see me
2:11:46in September of 1987.
2:11:50So I saw his face. I know his face.
2:11:53Okay.
2:11:54>> who he is. Yes. Okay. And when when
2:11:57Robert Seiver, when I was in New Jersey,
2:12:00Robert Seiver sent me pictures of his
2:12:02four friends
2:12:03and his four buddies that he hangs out
2:12:05with and one of them was John Stevens,
2:12:07but he called him John Budkey.
2:12:10Oh, okay.
2:12:12So the
2:12:16the escape
2:12:19attempt in 1989,
2:12:22again
2:12:24this was a group of people setting you
2:12:29up because you refused to sign a media
2:12:31release. Is that what I'm to understand?
2:12:35I I don't think they were intending to
2:12:38set me up. That's what happened, but I
2:12:40don't think they intended to. Uh Robert
2:12:42Seiver wrote to me. Uh the claim was
2:12:45made in May
2:12:47uh and I went to ad seg in May and
2:12:50uh Robert Seiver returned to New Jersey
2:12:53in May. I mean to Oregon from New Jersey
2:12:56in May. In September he wrote to me
2:12:59several letters and said
2:13:01I'm so sorry for what I did. John said
2:13:04that we were going to split the money.
2:13:06He sold the story for $25,000
2:13:09about how we were going to escape and he
2:13:13was going to split He was supposed to
2:13:14split the money with me, but then he
2:13:16lied to me and he kept the money and I'm
2:13:18so sorry. I didn't I'm sorry that I did
2:13:20that to you.
2:13:23I still have that letter. Okay, so
2:13:24there's
2:13:27So there's two
2:13:29plans. The first plan was they wanted
2:13:32you to sign a media release.
2:13:35And you you were talking with Mr. uh
2:13:38Bailey and you said they told you if you
2:13:41refused to sign the media release, you
2:13:43would be in more trouble.
2:13:46You refused and that's when they went to
2:13:48the warden and laid out this
2:13:51plan.
2:13:52>> Yes.
2:13:52>> Right? Yes.
2:13:54That's my understanding. That's
2:13:55according to the police reports. Yes.
2:13:57>> So it they did try and your testimony is
2:14:02that they tried to
2:14:05to blackmail you into doing a media
2:14:08release and when you didn't they
2:14:11they did this. And that you had no
2:14:13intention of
2:14:15escaping?
2:14:18No. Okay. No, we were going to court. I
2:14:20had a post-conviction hearing. This was
2:14:23in May and my post-conviction hearing
2:14:25was scheduled. It was on the calendar
2:14:26for September of 90 of 89. Okay.
2:14:30I filed my post I filed for
2:14:32post-conviction relief in 87. Steve
2:14:34Gorham was appointed to represent me in
2:14:3687. He had gathered evidence about
2:14:40um
2:14:42all the evidence that he'd gathered to
2:14:43put together his his uh
2:14:45fifth amendment petition and we were
2:14:48going to court. I was going to be
2:14:49brought back from
2:14:51uh New Jersey to Oregon for the
2:14:53post-conviction hearing in September of
2:14:561989.
2:14:58Okay.
2:15:00So for me to And that's what I told
2:15:01Seiver. I said, "I'm going home. I'm
2:15:03going back to
2:15:05to
2:15:05to Oregon in September."
2:15:08I
2:15:10Why would I sign a media release? After
2:15:12my name is cleared,
2:15:14then and and why would I marry you?
2:15:16After my name is cleared, I have a life
2:15:18to go home to. It doesn't involve being
2:15:20married to you and it sure certainly
2:15:22doesn't involve doing a movie. I don't
2:15:24want a movie. I don't care about a
2:15:27movie. Nobody's ever going to
2:15:29I'm not interested. Okay.
2:15:31>> And So you know it it says in the
2:15:35documents we received
2:15:37that Mr. Seiver turned over
2:15:41numerous items including tapes
2:15:45letters and transcripts.
2:15:48Right. Between the two of you. Are those
2:15:52What do you say about
2:15:53that evidence? I sent I sent him trial
2:15:55transcripts. He says um cuz he kept
2:15:58saying um uh um
2:16:01his mom didn't believe He's his mom was
2:16:04mad at him for dating me through the
2:16:06mail. And so I said, "Well, here." So I
2:16:08sent her trial tran I sent him trial
2:16:10transcripts to show her. That was the
2:16:12trial transcripts.
2:16:14I don't know how that could be used
2:16:15against me.
2:16:17Uh we I did a tape recording for him.
2:16:19There was nothing in there about
2:16:20escaping. What kind of a
2:16:23You guys have been told that I'm
2:16:25intelligent.
2:16:27What kind of dumbass would have to tape
2:16:30record escape plans and send it out of
2:16:33the prison?
2:16:34And if I was
2:16:36it would be ludicrous and there is
2:16:37nothing on it the tape recordings. One
2:16:40tape recording. There's nothing on there
2:16:41about escape plans. It sounds ominous
2:16:44because he turned over tape recordings
2:16:47and all this, but there's nothing on
2:16:48there about escaping. Nothing.
2:16:51And uh
2:16:52I don't know what kind of a shopping
2:16:54list it is. I I I I don't even know what
2:16:57the shopping list would be.
2:16:59I do know that he told that the during
2:17:02the disciplinary report
2:17:06hearing, they Yeah.
2:17:08Of all the places I would not go, it's
2:17:11Canada. I hate the cold. I was raised in
2:17:13Arizona. I hate the cold. I would not go
2:17:16to Canada. But that was part of his
2:17:19fantasy. That was part of his his
2:17:22storyline. Okay.
2:17:24And then you're you then said that these
2:17:28two men then
2:17:30used your disciplinary
2:17:35action
2:17:37to sell a story and earn $25,000?
2:17:42That's what Robert Seiver wrote in a
2:17:43letter to me. I don't know that he did
2:17:45or didn't, but that's what Robert Seiver
2:17:48wrote to me. He said, "I am so sorry.
2:17:50Please take me back. I was wrong. John
2:17:53lied to me. He said we were going to
2:17:55make $10,000, but he sold it for $25,000
2:18:00and he's supposed to give me half and he
2:18:01didn't."
2:18:03That's a letter he wrote to me. Again,
2:18:05I'm only telling you what he wrote to
2:18:07me. I don't know
2:18:08that it's true. Okay.
2:18:10>> I can only tell you from my end what I
2:18:12received. Okay. And then
2:18:16you overheard
2:18:19the district attorney tell
2:18:22prison officials that you shouldn't be
2:18:25charged.
2:18:27Yep. And then prison officials proceeded
2:18:31against you anyway against the advice of
2:18:34a district attorney?
2:18:36Yes. That was Charlotte Blackwell. Yes.
2:18:39I saw them both at the end of the hall
2:18:41at the end of the hall and I heard his
2:18:44voice and that's why I looked at the end
2:18:45of the hall and I saw him the DA or the
2:18:49man on the phone. I saw the man on the
2:18:50phone with the
2:18:53uh uh the um warden, Charlotte
2:18:55Blackwell.
2:18:56And they were talking and he said,
2:18:58"There is no evidence and no reason to
2:19:00believe this woman is planning to
2:19:01escape. I There's no way I can bring
2:19:03charges against her."
2:19:05So.
2:19:06So, it
2:19:08there seems to be kind of a theme that
2:19:10you are a person who
2:19:13um
2:19:15people conspire against. Is that kind of
2:19:18what you're cuz
2:19:20you're you know, you're saying there is
2:19:22a conspiracy and
2:19:24>> Yes.
2:19:24people made you lie and made others lie
2:19:27in your trial and now we have this
2:19:30attempted escape and the
2:19:32these prison officials are lying and
2:19:36everybody's lying in that as well and
2:19:39and um
2:19:42then when you're talking about the other
2:19:44it it's this seems to be a theme. Why do
2:19:47you think this keeps happening to you?
2:19:51Well, you kind of turned a light bulb on
2:19:54for me. Oh.
2:19:56Yes. According to the dangerous offender
2:20:00Mhm. I have to be mentally ill for you
2:20:03to keep me here.
2:20:04Mhm. I sure look crazy, don't I?
2:20:08And yet every single thing that I've
2:20:10told you is true and I have documents to
2:20:12prove it, but they don't give you those
2:20:13documents. All they give you is their
2:20:15version of it, which is she made this
2:20:17all up.
2:20:19I'm definitely Since you're not going to
2:20:20hand down your decision today, I'm
2:20:22definitely going to send you the
2:20:23documents because you need to know I am
2:20:25telling you the truth and I did not make
2:20:27this up.
2:20:28You need to know that I had a light blue
2:20:31denim romper, which could never have
2:20:33been turned into a navy blue polyester
2:20:37uh officer's uniform. You need to know
2:20:39that. I didn't just
2:20:41I don't know why people say the things
2:20:43they do. I No, I did not know why people
2:20:47said those things, but now I understand
2:20:50that if they can do these things and I
2:20:52try to explain them,
2:20:54it makes me look wacky
2:20:57and I'm not. I am telling you the god's
2:21:00honest truth and I have documents to
2:21:02prove it, which they don't give you.
2:21:05And it
2:21:06it's but it's still you you don't have
2:21:09the documents. You still think oh, she
2:21:12just makes this all up, but I didn't.
2:21:15They made it up.
2:21:17There you go. Well, well, I guess let's
2:21:19talk about the last attempted escape in
2:21:211991. You you've referenced the light
2:21:24blue
2:21:26you called it a Did you call it a romp
2:21:29romper? What did you
2:21:30>> A romper. A romp The romper it it's
2:21:32sleeveless and it has short legs. It's
2:21:35it had
2:21:36a zipper
2:21:37up the front. Okay.
2:21:38>> It's
2:21:39a sunsuit. It's a sunsuit, a romper.
2:21:42It's a sunsuit. Okay. Well, you also had
2:21:45other items though. You had fabric.
2:21:48You had buttons.
2:21:50>> Yes. You had according to them fashioned
2:21:53a pouch or purse out of these objects.
2:21:58Um so, it wasn't just a light blue
2:22:01romper, right? There were other items
2:22:03that were found at the time of this
2:22:05incident. Things All things that I'd had
2:22:08for since I got there that were legal
2:22:12and that
2:22:15even with buttons and the black fabric
2:22:19was like a square like this. It wasn't
2:22:22like
2:22:23uh sheets and sheets of fabric. It was a
2:22:26little square. It was a a rag a black
2:22:29rag. Oh, well, it says that it's 3 yd.
2:22:33No.
2:22:34Where was I going to get 3 yd of fabric?
2:22:37You know what we made in the
2:22:38I worked in the fabric in the sewing
2:22:41factory. Mhm. We made white boxer shorts
2:22:44for the men's prisons.
2:22:46I didn't have 3 yd of fabric. And if I
2:22:50had 3 yd of fabric, it had to have come
2:22:52through
2:22:54the mail room?
2:22:56And they would have stopped it. I I did
2:22:59not have it.
2:23:01Okay.
2:23:02And then finally, I guess I'm I'm just
2:23:05wondering why we're going back to the
2:23:071985 drug distribution distribution DR.
2:23:12Why would this individual
2:23:16pick you out to throw under the bus?
2:23:19Because you deny any of this.
2:23:22You deny that you were involved. You
2:23:25deny writing the that letter.
2:23:28Yeah. Um so,
2:23:31why would he of all the people he could
2:23:34pick, why would he decide
2:23:38to to choose you
2:23:40and as you put it throw you under the
2:23:43bus? I don't understand
2:23:45that.
2:23:49When someone
2:23:51he is a lifelong criminal. He had been
2:23:55in California juvenile facility since
2:23:58the age of 14.
2:24:00By this time he was 36. So, he had been
2:24:03in and out of prison. He had only had 2
2:24:05years outside of prison since the age of
2:24:0714. Okay. So, he thinks like a prisoner.
2:24:10He doesn't think like you. He doesn't
2:24:12think like
2:24:13like normal people.
2:24:16So, when he is going to be in trouble
2:24:18because he gets busted with drugs,
2:24:22in order to get himself out of what
2:24:25career criminals do in prison
2:24:28is throw somebody else hotter
2:24:30at people to draw attention to distract
2:24:32attention. It's like
2:24:34it's like killdeers, the little birds
2:24:36that that nest in the rocks. When a fox
2:24:39is coming along, they run away from
2:24:42their nest and they pretend they have a
2:24:43broken wing so the fox will chase them
2:24:46and leave the nest alone.
2:24:48That's what he was doing. He was saying,
2:24:50"Oh, I've got something from Diane Downs
2:24:54and she's she's trying to convince me to
2:24:57transport drugs into the prison through
2:25:00the through I don't know how because I
2:25:02wasn't going to the prison at that time.
2:25:05And and if you I wish you had a copy of
2:25:08the letter. It didn't even say anything.
2:25:10It simply the what the letter said
2:25:13was something to the effect of I have a
2:25:16friend that wants some
2:25:18H. I didn't even know what H was at the
2:25:20time. Apparently, that's heroin. I have
2:25:22a friend who wants some H and is there a
2:25:25way that you can get it to me through
2:25:27the school system?
2:25:29The school system?
2:25:32Okay. That's what the letter said cuz
2:25:34they gave me a copy of it.
2:25:37I was not yet going to college. It was
2:25:39after that. It was about 4 months after
2:25:42that the warden of that prison of Oregon
2:25:44State Penitentiary granted me permission
2:25:46to enter his prison in the school system
2:25:48in the college program. If the warden
2:25:51believed that Frank Sousa was actually
2:25:53telling the truth and that I wrote that
2:25:55letter, he was never going to let me go
2:25:57to his prison.
2:25:58Especially not to sit in a classroom
2:26:00with Frank Sousa. It just wasn't going
2:26:02to happen.
2:26:04So, even they knew Frank's history of
2:26:07throwing other people at the COs to
2:26:10distract them. Frank never Frank had
2:26:13this letter and he claimed to have had
2:26:15this letter for 2 months or something.
2:26:19And yet he never turned it in
2:26:22until he's getting busted. The whole
2:26:24story was bogus.
2:26:26And the staff note was bogus.
2:26:28But my staff
2:26:31found me guilty. I got charged with a
2:26:32disciplinary report and I got found
2:26:34guilty.
2:26:36So, okay. So, you when you say the whole
2:26:40staff knew it was bogus, you mean
2:26:42the staff in the men's prison.
2:26:46But your staff
2:26:49did not find it to be bogus, correct?
2:26:54I
2:26:55would assume that they did not find it
2:26:56to be bogus because they charged me.
2:26:58They wrote a disciplinary report and
2:27:00they charged me and found me guilty.
2:27:01Correct. And you received 3 months in
2:27:03segregation, correct?
2:27:05Yes. Okay.
2:27:10And then that was in
2:27:12uh
2:27:13May, I think. June, July, August and
2:27:16then in September I started school.
2:27:19And did you know Frank Sousa?
2:27:23We were pen pals. When I got to the
2:27:25prison, he wrote to me.
2:27:27Oh, so you are the infamous Diane Downs.
2:27:30That's right.
2:27:32I did not know he was the infamous Frank
2:27:34Sousa. So, the two of you were
2:27:37exchanging letters this whole time.
2:27:39Yes. How long did that go on for?
2:27:44Uh I arrived in the prison August 30th
2:27:48of 1984. He started writing to me in
2:27:51September of '84.
2:27:53And so, this was '85. So, we had been
2:27:57writing for
2:27:59maybe
2:28:016 months, I guess.
2:28:03We had been writing for about 6 months
2:28:04and
2:28:05you you have you were part of the system
2:28:08back then, so you don't know. We had I
2:28:11didn't have to write through the league
2:28:13through the mail system. We had a mail
2:28:16system that
2:28:18Do you know Have you ever been to OSP
2:28:20and OWCC? Have you know the layout? I
2:28:24have been to both, yes.
2:28:26Okay, good good good.
2:28:27So, the myth the women could actually
2:28:31marry the men and go over there for for
2:28:35visiting on visit every Friday they
2:28:37could go to visiting day. So, they could
2:28:38actually marry. There was that much of a
2:28:41connection of an
2:28:43inter interlocking system between those
2:28:45two prisons.
2:28:47The mail system was similar in that
2:28:51I if the females wanted to write to the
2:28:53men and the men vice versa,
2:28:55I would write a letter, I'd put it in a
2:28:57yellow envelope, don't seal it, give it
2:28:59to the officer. It was not stamped with
2:29:02postage. It was interagency.
2:29:05The officers would review the letter and
2:29:07they would uh walk it over every day.
2:29:09They would walk it to OSP and then it
2:29:12would be distributed.
2:29:14Anything that I would have written to
2:29:16Frank Sousa would have been in a yellow
2:29:18interagency envelope, not sealed, and
2:29:21the staff review all these letters. And
2:29:24there were only 130 women at the prison
2:29:26at the time. So it wasn't onerous. Not
2:29:28very many of them wrote to the men's
2:29:30prison.
2:29:31So it wasn't difficult for them
2:29:35to review every single letter. And I'm
2:29:38assuming they would have would have read
2:29:40all of my letters. Even if they didn't,
2:29:42I would assume that they were going to
2:29:44read all of my letters. Now, the only
2:29:46way that I could have gotten a letter to
2:29:49Frank before I started college was
2:29:53through one of these interagency
2:29:55envelopes, which was reviewed. No
2:29:57officer grabbed that and said, "Oh my
2:29:59god, she's trying to get H into the
2:30:01prison." No officer did that because I
2:30:03never wrote a letter to Frank saying
2:30:05anything of that sort.
2:30:07I don't know how Frank got a letter. I
2:30:10don't know if he wrote it. I don't know
2:30:12if he had someone I don't know cuz I
2:30:14wasn't there. I can only speculate, but
2:30:16I never wrote a letter of any sort. Mhm.
2:30:20There you go. So were you and Frank in a
2:30:22romantic relationship? Was this a
2:30:24romantic exchange between the two of
2:30:27you?
2:30:28Oh, I'm sure he thought it was. Yeah,
2:30:31I'm sure he thought it was. I mean Well,
2:30:33what did you think? You were a part of
2:30:35this. What did you think?
2:30:36>> I just thought he was a pen pal and I
2:30:40wanted to go to the to the men's college
2:30:42to go to school and that if I was going
2:30:44to go to a men's penitentiary
2:30:48that I didn't know what it was like. I
2:30:51wanted to know from him, what is it like
2:30:53at the men's prison? What are the men
2:30:55like? What is the college program like?
2:30:57Um am I going to be safe? Am I going to
2:31:00be harassed? Because I wasn't liked in
2:31:02the women's prison. So I was harassed
2:31:04enough there. Was I going to be
2:31:06harassed? Those were the questions that
2:31:07I wanted to know from him. Mhm. And so
2:31:11that's why I agree agreed to the pen pal
2:31:14to the pen pal with him because I wanted
2:31:17to know I was told right from the get-go
2:31:19that I qualified for college because I
2:31:21had already begun my college
2:31:23on the street. And so I was just waiting
2:31:27for my turn. There were only 10 slots
2:31:29for women. So I was waiting for my turn
2:31:32to get a Pell Grant. And so during that
2:31:35time, I wanted to know, am I going to be
2:31:37safe?
2:31:41Okay. I don't have any other questions.
2:31:43Ms. Brooks?
2:31:45Um I do have some questions about the
2:31:48individual who you said
2:31:50you learned was responsible, James
2:31:53Claire Haynes, but I think that kind of
2:31:55gets into crimes. So I'll save my
2:31:57questions on that subject and I don't
2:31:59have any questions regarding
2:32:00disciplinary. Okay. Thank you. Mr.
2:32:02Reese?
2:32:03No questions.
2:32:04And Ms. Kuczynski? Uh no additional
2:32:06questions. Thank you. Okay. All right.
2:32:08So Ms. Downs, we're going to turn to
2:32:10both uh the psychological evaluations
2:32:13that are in your file as well as your
2:32:15criminal history and just some other
2:32:17kind of relevant history, I'm going to
2:32:19call it. Um
2:32:20my first question for you, I'm curious
2:32:22just how you feel like the evaluation
2:32:24with Dr. Milkey went.
2:32:27I thought it was fine. He was very
2:32:29professional. He was uh attentive. It's
2:32:33an active listener. Oh yeah, another one
2:32:35of the things that we learned in in
2:32:37class. He was an active listener. He was
2:32:39great. I I thought he was fine.
2:32:43Um so Dr. Milkey ended up um
2:32:46giving you a diagnosis. You've seen this
2:32:49before, of narcissistic personality
2:32:51disorder.
2:32:52Um I'm just curious what you felt uh
2:32:55about that diagnosis.
2:32:58I disagree with it.
2:33:00Um
2:33:01but
2:33:02the thing that mattered to me most was
2:33:05he wrote uh Ms. Downs does not meet
2:33:09criteria for a major mental health
2:33:10disorder.
2:33:12And that was on page
2:33:1520 of his report. And on page 21 of his
2:33:20report, he said Ms. Downs does not have
2:33:23a major mental health illness.
2:33:25So to me that
2:33:29that sticks out.
2:33:32And and what about that in particular
2:33:34sticks out to you? Tell me your
2:33:35thoughts.
2:33:37It's because the law says that if I am
2:33:39not suffering from a severe
2:33:42personality disorder, you have no reason
2:33:45to deny me parole.
2:33:47So the fact that he says that I do not
2:33:49suffer from one,
2:33:50it's
2:33:54it's important.
2:33:57Okay. Thank you. So I I am going to turn
2:34:00to some questions about the um offense
2:34:02itself and
2:34:04you know, as we have been talking
2:34:05already about today, it's you know, the
2:34:07board is well aware that you um maintain
2:34:10your innocence of the offense um that
2:34:13occurred. Um so I am going to ask you
2:34:16because I just want to get an
2:34:17understanding from your perspective
2:34:20because this is kind of
2:34:22evolved a little bit over time and I
2:34:24want to have an idea of what actually
2:34:26today you feel like happened the night
2:34:29your children were shot. So from the
2:34:32moment that you made and the reasons why
2:34:34you made the decision to leave the house
2:34:36through when you ended up at the
2:34:37hospital, can you tell us what happened?
2:34:48Mhm.
2:34:51Well,
2:34:53my kids and I went
2:34:58in for a penny, in for a pound.
2:35:02When I first arrived in Oregon, I
2:35:04arrived in Oregon from Arizona
2:35:07on April 1st.
2:35:08I started my job April 3rd, which was a
2:35:11Monday. So 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th. So
2:35:14April 7th, I was delivering mail to the
2:35:18Lane County Courthouse. I had a
2:35:20registered letter
2:35:21and
2:35:24I didn't know how to get it to the DA
2:35:25that it was that it was supposed to be
2:35:27delivered.
2:35:28Say again? Yeah.
2:35:31Yeah.
2:35:32So there's background noise.
2:35:36We're going to pause the record real
2:35:38quick. I'm sorry.
2:35:39Um
2:35:42So uh
2:35:43can y'all just I'm sorry. We're just
2:35:45stand by for me 1 second. We're going to
2:35:47go off the record for just a second.
2:35:50Holding. Okay. Thank you. Ms. Kuczynski,
2:35:52please take us off the record and pause
2:35:55our recording, please.
2:35:58Um Mr. Mr. Bailey, would it be possible
2:36:00to take a small break and ask Ms. Downs
2:36:02to call me?
2:36:04Uh
2:36:05yes, because I want to resolve something
2:36:07technologically on our end. So why don't
2:36:09we take a very brief 5 minutes and we'll
2:36:13come back on the record.
2:36:14At that time. Yes.
2:36:16Yes.
2:36:17All right. Thank you, Ms. Downs. Thank
2:36:19you for letting us solve that issue.
2:36:21We're back on the record. Um So Ms.
2:36:23Mayhew, if you can um unmute, I just
2:36:25want to have a quick conversation about
2:36:27records.
2:36:29Uh yes, I'm here, Mr. Bailey. Okay.
2:36:31Thank you. So um you know, Ms. Downs has
2:36:34suggested that she would like to submit
2:36:36additional records for the board to
2:36:37consider.
2:36:38You know, I don't know whether or not
2:36:40that's something that the two of you
2:36:41have discussed, but I so I just want to
2:36:42let you know that should Ms. Downs or
2:36:45you decide that you want to submit
2:36:46additional records, what I'm going to be
2:36:49asking from um from you, Ms. Mayhew, is
2:36:52some written communication to the board
2:36:55by the end of the day or some oral um
2:36:58submission to the board by the end of
2:37:00the hearing today, either way, whichever
2:37:01way you prefer,
2:37:03um with a list of exactly which
2:37:05documents you would like additionally to
2:37:07submit. Um and then I would allow the
2:37:10record to be open for two additional
2:37:12weeks
2:37:14to allow you um and your client to
2:37:16submit those additional records for the
2:37:18board consideration before we
2:37:19deliberate. But again, I would like a
2:37:21very specific list of exactly which
2:37:23documents you would like to be included
2:37:25should you and your client decide to
2:37:27submit anything.
2:37:29Thank you. That's that's really good and
2:37:30and very reasonable. Thank you very
2:37:31much, Mr. Bailey. Okay. Thank you, Ms.
2:37:33Mayhew. So So Ms. Downs,
2:37:36um I was just asking you to kind of give
2:37:38me a a recitation of what happened the
2:37:41night your children were shot. Really
2:37:44looking at from the perspective of when
2:37:46you left the house and why you left the
2:37:48house through when you ended up at the
2:37:50hospital. That was the question.
2:37:52Okay.
2:37:54Uh my children and I left the house to
2:37:58take a newspaper article to my friend
2:38:00Heather. I had only been in Oregon since
2:38:03um
2:38:05April 1st. I met Heather May April 3rd,
2:38:08our first day of work, and we stayed
2:38:10friends. And she
2:38:13expressed to me that she would like to
2:38:15adopt but she wanted to buy a horse. I
2:38:18saw a newspaper ad that said you could
2:38:21that she could adopt a horse, a wild
2:38:23horse.
2:38:25I had it in my possession for about a
2:38:27week and the auction was coming up the
2:38:30this that coming Saturday.
2:38:33And so it was Thursday, so I decided to
2:38:35take it to her. So I took it to her.
2:38:38I went to the house,
2:38:40gave her the article,
2:38:41we left,
2:38:43we were headed home.
2:38:45Somebody was in the road, flagged us
2:38:47down.
2:38:48He said he wanted my car. I said you got
2:38:51to be kidding. He pushed me aside. He
2:38:56left into the car,
2:38:58shot my children.
2:39:01I was shocked.
2:39:03I
2:39:04I looked through the window, I saw
2:39:06Christie
2:39:07clutching her chest.
2:39:10And then she fell. And when he came back
2:39:13out of the car,
2:39:15he said again he wanted the car and I
2:39:17I was shoving him. The gun went off.
2:39:21Apparently I was shot. I didn't know at
2:39:23the time. I thought he had just hit me
2:39:24with the gun.
2:39:26And he fell back. I jumped in the car.
2:39:31Oh, I think throwing keys
2:39:33at Debs and then he lunged at me, I
2:39:35lunged at him.
2:39:36He I he fell back. I jumped in the car.
2:39:40I drove to the hospital. I honked the
2:39:42horn and the nurse came running out and
2:39:45I said my kids had been shot.
2:39:54Okay.
2:39:56And I you know I can I know this is new
2:39:59this is new with the board hasn't done
2:40:01this in prior hearings with you until
2:40:03today Miss Downs I just want to remind
2:40:04you we're going to we're going to do
2:40:05everything we can to use the kids
2:40:07initials obviously your children's
2:40:09initials are not not there their names.
2:40:11>> Yes. So this is a reminder.
2:40:12>> Yeah. Okay.
2:40:13>> Yes yes yes yes. When I asked you who
2:40:16you felt like shot your your children,
2:40:19who you believe was the culprit, you
2:40:20said James Haynes is who you think
2:40:23ultimately did it.
2:40:27He says he did it. I don't know that he
2:40:29did. I would like to have talked to him.
2:40:33But he says he did. He told his family
2:40:35and his friends that he did. And
2:40:38when we got a graph of him in 1993
2:40:44I
2:40:47compared it
2:40:48First of all, I looked at it and said
2:40:50that's him. But then you compare it to
2:40:52Christie's composite that she did
2:40:56a week before trial and it looks like
2:40:58the same person.
2:41:00Mr. Bady, can I just interrupt for a
2:41:02second? Go ahead Miss Bady. Yes.
2:41:06I'm just going to let you know that some
2:41:07of the documents that we will be
2:41:09submitting is a list of affidavits from
2:41:12a large group of friends and family
2:41:14members of Mr. Haynes. This was
2:41:16litigated or at least it was attempted
2:41:18to be litigated in
2:41:21Miss Downs federal habeas case by the
2:41:24federal defenders office in 1998 and
2:41:261999.
2:41:28This is not a figment of Miss Downs
2:41:30imagination. This is a well documented
2:41:33um
2:41:34um allegations that he was that he had
2:41:36confessed to multiple people and this is
2:41:39a key element of what her DNA case is
2:41:41about right now. So there is a lot of
2:41:44evidence on this and it was it was
2:41:45litigated. One of the reasons that she
2:41:48was not able to progress with this at
2:41:49the time was because of the certainty
2:41:52the state felt in tool mark evidence
2:41:55which is now actually ruled inadmissible
2:41:57but that's another factor. So I just I
2:41:58just want you to know that this is this
2:42:00is a well documented situation. Thank
2:42:03you. All right, thank you Miss Mayhew.
2:42:05Okay, so Miss Downs I've heard you know
2:42:07I saw in the record that historically
2:42:10you suggested
2:42:12John Krueger and Michael Hart are the
2:42:15same person and that you had suggested
2:42:18there was DNA evidence by Hart and
2:42:20Krueger on chewing gum.
2:42:23And it sounded so the way I read it is
2:42:25that you were suggesting at that time
2:42:27that Mr. Hart was the one responsible
2:42:29for shooting your children.
2:42:31No, these are questions that I've asked.
2:42:34These are not allegations I've made.
2:42:36They're questions I've asked. I
2:42:38We have a suspect James Clair Haynes.
2:42:41But there were four sets of shoe prints
2:42:43at the crime scene. There were beer
2:42:45beer cans several beer cans and one wad
2:42:49of chewing gum next to the murder
2:42:51casing. So it's likely to
2:42:55be that there were more there was more
2:42:57than one person at the scene.
2:42:59My question is was John Krueger Michael
2:43:03Hart one of those people?
2:43:06That's my question.
2:43:08It's not an allegation. I don't know
2:43:10until we do the DNA test.
2:43:14Okay.
2:43:15So
2:43:16your child CAD provided testimony at the
2:43:19trial that you shot them.
2:43:21I'm I'm just curious from your
2:43:24perspective 41 years later. I mean why
2:43:27you feel like
2:43:29you know that was the testimony when you
2:43:32know you don't believe that you
2:43:34committed the crime.
2:43:37I believe that CAD and
2:43:40when you were fixing things my attorney
2:43:42was fixing me.
2:43:44She had we have litigation with new
2:43:46evidence that has come up with new
2:43:48experts
2:43:50and she
2:43:51doesn't feel that the parole board
2:43:53hearing is exactly the right place to
2:43:55air this. So it's something that will be
2:43:58coming up in a post conviction hearing
2:44:00next week actually. And
2:44:03um
2:44:06I believe that CAD has absolutely no
2:44:09memory. She told them I have no memory
2:44:12of this.
2:44:13She told them over and over and over
2:44:15every day in the hospital they
2:44:16interrogated her. They they act like
2:44:18they only talked to her once or twice
2:44:20and each time she condemned her mom.
2:44:24But she didn't. Every single time there
2:44:26are different doctors
2:44:28and um
2:44:29detectives
2:44:31that documented in her hospital records
2:44:34that she has no memory. Dr. Bergamini
2:44:38she has no memory. Dr. Miller she has no
2:44:40memory.
2:44:42Dick Tracy Richard Blaine Tracy she has
2:44:44no memory.
2:44:46And
2:44:47so
2:44:48but that wasn't what they wanted to hear
2:44:50and so therefore they didn't they didn't
2:44:53accept that as the truth.
2:44:56And so
2:44:57it wasn't until later that Christie said
2:45:01what she said and it was
2:45:03slowly drawn out. The police that she
2:45:06would go to her psychologist
2:45:09and it says in the psychologist report
2:45:12Christie's crying because of police
2:45:14accusations.
2:45:15Well Christie had not was not permitted
2:45:17to watch the TV and in fact when she was
2:45:19on when she was on the witness stand she
2:45:22was asked did you know that your mom
2:45:23said a man did this? She was genuinely
2:45:26shocked. She said no I didn't and her
2:45:29her face was wide open with shock. I
2:45:33mean see CAD I'm sorry was wide open
2:45:36with shock and
2:45:38she didn't know. So for her to draw a
2:45:41composite
2:45:43of a left-handed shooter and we now know
2:45:46that the shooter had to be left-handed
2:45:48and I'm right-handed means that Christie
2:45:51saw a hand. She did not see a person and
2:45:55she just doesn't remember. If there if
2:45:57she's going to remember anything
2:45:59it's she just isn't she can't. It's I'm
2:46:03not allowed I'm not the expert and I
2:46:05would be a fool to try to to encapsulate
2:46:08what the expert has to say in well two
2:46:12experts in their very sage reports. So
2:46:15we're just going to let the
2:46:17post conviction court handle that. Okay.
2:46:19And and that will be added to the packet
2:46:21that we send you. Okay. Thank you. Thank
2:46:23you Miss Mayhew. So
2:46:25all right so Miss Downs you've I know
2:46:27you've previously
2:46:29reported it's in the documents that we
2:46:31have about concerns that you had about a
2:46:33stalker.
2:46:34And that you believe that a stalker may
2:46:37have been related
2:46:39somehow to the murder of one of your
2:46:42children and the shooting of your other
2:46:43children. So I'm curious
2:46:45talk to me about how the stalker fits
2:46:47into this picture.
2:46:50Again, it's not an allegation. It's a
2:46:52question. I don't know who did this. I
2:46:55don't know why he did this. I have a
2:46:58million questions I want answers to but
2:47:00nobody in the power that has the
2:47:03authority to find the answers wants to
2:47:05help me find them. So I keep posing
2:47:07questions and they keep getting turned
2:47:10around into allegations. I have a
2:47:12stalker now. I definitely have a stalker
2:47:15now.
2:47:17What I want to know is a question was he
2:47:19a stalker then?
2:47:21Is this somebody that I ran into
2:47:24somebody that I met somebody that that I
2:47:27don't know.
2:47:29And after the DNA test if it turns out
2:47:32that he or his cohorts are involved
2:47:37there are ways once this is all done and
2:47:40people realize that I'm actually
2:47:42innocent
2:47:43somebody is going to want to know well
2:47:46what what the hell happened? Somebody
2:47:48somewhere is going to want to know the
2:47:49truth.
2:47:51Perhaps my children.
2:47:52I mean if I was CAD and if I was SDD I
2:47:56would want to know the truth.
2:47:58So
2:48:00somebody somewhere just somebody has to
2:48:03ask the question.
2:48:07Um
2:48:09So you talked about Dr. Milky about some
2:48:12of the some information about the
2:48:14stalker individual that I think you've
2:48:16been talking about and you told him that
2:48:18you quote left college without a clear
2:48:20cause unquote. And that you thought your
2:48:23stalker had intervened to cause you to
2:48:25be expelled from college. I I just had
2:48:28I've no idea what that means. So can you
2:48:30help me out with that?
2:48:31I can. And again I wondered if I didn't
2:48:35make an allegation. I wondered if
2:48:38Um I was going to college and I had no
2:48:40problem. There I had finished my
2:48:43associate's degree.
2:48:45And again, Miss
2:48:48Stupid co-chair, she knows what the
2:48:51layout's like, so she can assure she can
2:48:53explain it to you later, draw a little
2:48:54picture if she wants, but
2:48:56I had to walk from
2:48:59the women's prison, exit the women's
2:49:01prison, walk in the free world to the
2:49:03men's prison and enter the men's prison
2:49:05every morning and do the the reverse
2:49:08every afternoon after school was over.
2:49:10So, I was basically in the free world
2:49:14for those two trips every day.
2:49:18My question is
2:49:20and all of a sudden I was pulled out of
2:49:22school. I had been going to school
2:49:24without a hitch
2:49:25for a year. I got my associate's degree
2:49:29in a year because I doubled up classes.
2:49:31I wasn't just going to the men's prison
2:49:33just to hang out. I wasn't doing I
2:49:35wasn't going to school just for
2:49:37for an excuse to get a walk on the
2:49:39outside of prison. I took double up
2:49:41classes so that I could get my associate
2:49:43my 2-year associates in 1 year. So, I
2:49:45wasn't trying to spend more time outside
2:49:48the prison. And all of a sudden and I
2:49:50was in my bachelor's year. I had started
2:49:53my first year of my bachelor's program
2:49:55again without a hitch.
2:49:57And all of a sudden I was told that I
2:49:59couldn't go anymore. And I and they
2:50:01didn't give me a reason. I hadn't done
2:50:03anything differently. The prison hadn't
2:50:05done anything. The the OSP hadn't done
2:50:07anything. There'd been no threats in the
2:50:09prison as far as I knew.
2:50:11So, my question is did something happen?
2:50:13Did they get information
2:50:15extraneous from me
2:50:18that I was either in danger or that they
2:50:21were in danger? Was somebody going to
2:50:25Did somebody allege that they were going
2:50:26to liberate me or did somebody allege
2:50:28that they were going to shoot me on the
2:50:31way to school? I don't know. I would
2:50:33love to know the answer to that.
2:50:35But it makes me wonder. This stalker has
2:50:38been relentless since 1984.
2:50:44Okay, so
2:50:45was he the one that and he it's not that
2:50:48he's trying to get me out. He's not
2:50:50stalking me to benefit me. He's not
2:50:53stalking me to make my life easier. He's
2:50:56doing things that make the parole board,
2:50:58my administration
2:51:01concerned about me, not for me, but
2:51:04about me. So, if that's the case, was he
2:51:07involved in the reason that I was
2:51:11unceremoniously just removed from from
2:51:13college? Cuz there was no other reason.
2:51:15So, it's a question. It wasn't an
2:51:17allegation.
2:51:18And I'll probably never have answers to
2:51:20these until somebody finally says, "Oh
2:51:23my gosh, Diane, you were telling the
2:51:25truth all this time. You really didn't
2:51:27do it. Yes, now we can tell you why this
2:51:30happened." Maybe Sonia
2:51:33the the my former warden at that time,
2:51:35maybe she'll tell me.
2:51:37So,
2:51:39I don't know. Okay.
2:51:40Actually, Sonia wasn't my warden when I
2:51:42was pulled out. It was uh
2:51:45Robert.
2:51:46Maybe he'll tell me what happened. I
2:51:48don't know.
2:51:50Well, that that that provided me um
2:51:53some more clarity on just understanding
2:51:55that and I appreciate that. So, the next
2:51:57question I have for you is is not who
2:52:01committed the crime. We've already
2:52:02talked about that from your perspective.
2:52:04I now want to know why you think this
2:52:07crime occurred.
2:52:11Well, on the advice of my attorney,
2:52:12we're going to let the post-conviction
2:52:14court handle this. Um
2:52:17she during the break when you guys were
2:52:18fixing whatever was happening, she said,
2:52:21"Let the court deal with this. This is
2:52:24This is
2:52:26I'm not supposed to mess up her new
2:52:27evidence.
2:52:30So, she has new evidence that that we're
2:52:32just going to leave it at that.
2:52:34And again, it's it's his decision, not
2:52:36mine. We even if I answer what I think
2:52:38he did why he I think he did it, that's
2:52:40not evidence of anything.
2:52:44Um when you look back on the night and
2:52:47everything that happened, what do you
2:52:49take accountability for?
2:52:51Oh my god.
2:52:56For
2:52:58My accountability is that I am the mom.
2:53:01My job as a mom is to take care of my
2:53:05children and protect them, which I had
2:53:07done for 9 years 8 years. Christy was CD
2:53:12CAD was
2:53:14It's really hard. I gave birth to them.
2:53:16It's really hard to consider them as the
2:53:18Michelles.
2:53:19I love them. I miss them.
2:53:22There's so many things anyway. I'm
2:53:24getting off track.
2:53:26What I take accountability for is that I
2:53:27should have been able to protect them.
2:53:30Even though I had no way of knowing that
2:53:32I was going to be meeting up with some
2:53:34psychopath
2:53:36a stranger
2:53:37that was going to want
2:53:40whose mind I couldn't be in. I don't
2:53:42know who he is. I didn't know who he is.
2:53:45I didn't know what he was about. I
2:53:46didn't know that I was going to be
2:53:49encountering that.
2:53:52And so, I should
2:53:54I There's nothing I could have done
2:53:57except not be there. And so, that's my
2:53:58accountability. I should not have been
2:54:00there.
2:54:01I
2:54:05Again, trying to give Heather a horse.
2:54:08Heather wants a horse, I can get her a
2:54:09horse for free.
2:54:11That's not my job. It wasn't my horse. I
2:54:13I was just raised to be that way. I was
2:54:15raised to be
2:54:16giving and kind and loving and
2:54:18considerate and thoughtful and and
2:54:21stupid, naive, young. I hadn't
2:54:24experienced that kind of
2:54:26violence except with Steve Downs and
2:54:29only Steve Downs. And so, I had no
2:54:30reason to believe that if I stopped for
2:54:33a stranger on the road that something
2:54:34was going to happen. But my
2:54:36accountability is
2:54:38I did. I did stop on that road.
2:54:42I did get smart with him. I want your
2:54:44car. Really?
2:54:46Are you crazy? What? And he was crazy.
2:54:49You don't call crazy people crazy cuz it
2:54:51really irritates them. But I don't know
2:54:52that he's crazy cuz I didn't know who he
2:54:54was.
2:54:55My accountability is I was there and my
2:54:58children were with me. That's my
2:55:00accountability.
2:55:01They I should never have gone cuz I'm
2:55:03not going to leave them at home alone.
2:55:05So, I should never have gone.
2:55:09And it can never be undone. And
2:55:12it That's my accountability. That's my
2:55:17angst, my grief, my lack of resolution.
2:55:23All right. Thank you, Ms. Downs. Um
2:55:25So, I do want to ask a few questions
2:55:27about
2:55:29uh just making sure I understand this.
2:55:31So,
2:55:32prior to the shooting, you'd been in a
2:55:34relationship with the man who
2:55:37documents indicate you thought was
2:55:39working as a detective or with the FBI
2:55:41with some kind of law enforcement
2:55:43officer.
2:55:44And the reports indicate that that there
2:55:46are documents where you talk about that
2:55:48he had you going to homes
2:55:50for him.
2:55:52I didn't understand it. What what was
2:55:54the purpose of going into the homes?
2:55:56Like what was that about?
2:55:58My attorney says I'm not supposed to
2:56:00talk to you about that until this is all
2:56:02over. She She has new evidence that that
2:56:05I'm going to let her handle.
2:56:07It would be a waste of taxpayer dollars
2:56:09for me to step on her case. Okay.
2:56:12I'm sorry.
2:56:13I'm asking you the questions and you
2:56:15give me what answer you want. That's how
2:56:17this works. So, the DA's information
2:56:19states so, I'm going to ask you the
2:56:20questions, you will tell me what you
2:56:22want to answer and what you don't.
2:56:23The DA's information packet states that
2:56:26you later learned that this individual
2:56:28was a drug dealer.
2:56:30Is that correct?
2:56:32Same person? Yeah, that's that's what I
2:56:35That's what I took it as.
2:56:37Okay. Same answer.
2:56:39I'm sorry. My attorney My attorney No, I
2:56:42I have to I have to respect her wishes.
2:56:44I'm sorry.
2:56:46I'm sorry. I'm
2:56:47I'm a chatterbox. I'd love nothing more
2:56:49than to talk, but my attorney has new
2:56:51evidence and she knows what she is doing
2:56:53and I am going to let her run that.
2:56:57Bear with me here 1 second.
2:57:15So, this is from the DA's submission.
2:57:20Um and I just was curious
2:57:23if any of this had occurred. In this
2:57:26There's a This is from page two of the
2:57:28DA's submission. Quote, "In a letter
2:57:31that she wrote to Jim Jagger, her
2:57:32defense attorney, she admitted that she
2:57:33had lied to him at the time about the
2:57:35crime. In this letter, she abandons her
2:57:37prior versions of events and states that
2:57:39she was {quote} flirting {unquote}
2:57:41with another with a driver of another
2:57:43vehicle on Mohawk Road. She and the
2:57:45other driver pulled over and talked. She
2:57:47had marijuana, which they were going to
2:57:49smoke. Downs claimed she went to the
2:57:51trunk of her car to retrieve the
2:57:52marijuana and that the man then grabbed
2:57:54her gun from the trunk and shot the
2:57:57children. Downs stated that she did not
2:57:59provide this information to
2:58:00investigators or the jury since she was
2:58:01afraid she would be frowned upon for the
2:58:03use of marijuana.
2:58:05This letter became relevant in the
2:58:06post-conviction proceedings and then it
2:58:08goes on to talk about a little more
2:58:10about that. So, I'm just curious,
2:58:12any of that occur?
2:58:14No.
2:58:15And the letter didn't occur. That letter
2:58:18was not written by me.
2:58:22I I have to do this, Venisha. I have to
2:58:24give at least an explanation for this.
2:58:28When I went back This This was allegedly
2:58:31written cuz I got a copy of it. This
2:58:32letter was allegedly written on November
2:58:347th,
2:58:351984.
2:58:39Just before that I was in county jail.
2:58:42Just before that,
2:58:44the state wanted No.
2:58:46Children Services Division and CAD's
2:58:50attorney and my ex-husband's attorney
2:58:54all wanted to terminate my parental
2:58:56rights.
2:58:57There was only one person who stood up
2:58:59and said I do not want to terminate this
2:59:00woman's parental rights, and that was
2:59:02Fred Hugi.
2:59:04After that hearing, I was so happy. I I
2:59:07believed
2:59:09that Fred Hugi was going to work with me
2:59:12to either allow me to have visitation
2:59:14with my children, even if it was at the
2:59:16prison,
2:59:17or at the very least that he was still
2:59:19investigating the case. That was my
2:59:21belief system.
2:59:22There is No, and this letter was
2:59:25allegedly written by me
2:59:27one week later.
2:59:29I did not I had no reason to
2:59:33write something like that, because
2:59:35clearly the only person who believed in
2:59:37me at that point was Fred.
2:59:39Why would I write something and give it
2:59:41to my attorney, knowing that he was
2:59:42going to give it to the Fred,
2:59:45that would derail whatever Fred was
2:59:46doing? He was the only person who did
2:59:48not want to terminate my parental
2:59:50rights. He was the only person that I
2:59:51believed believed in me.
2:59:53You can go to that hearing. The hearing
2:59:55was on October 29th. Oh, wow. October
2:59:5829th.
2:59:59You can go to that hearing and and read
3:00:02the transcript. Fred was the only one
3:00:04who did not want to terminate my
3:00:05parental rights. I did not write that
3:00:07letter. Then, a year later,
3:00:10uh 6 months later, Jim Jagger brought me
3:00:12five boxes of everything from his office
3:00:15pertaining to my case. It had everything
3:00:18in it. It had all the the discovery. It
3:00:21had everything that was in his office
3:00:22that had my name on it. He brought to me
3:00:24at the prison, left five boxes. I took
3:00:27them to my cell.
3:00:28That letter's not in there. So, how is
3:00:30it that that Jim Jagger allegedly this
3:00:32letter was written in uh No, allegedly
3:00:35written in November Well, it was written
3:00:37by somebody in November of '84, Jim
3:00:40brings me all my boxes in uh May of '85,
3:00:44but this letter is not in there, because
3:00:46it didn't exist in '85. And then, in
3:00:491991,
3:00:50you get that letter. I don't know if
3:00:52you've read it. The the state The
3:00:54attorney general gets that letter and
3:00:55there's a cover letter from Jim Jagger
3:00:57that says, "Here's the letter that you
3:00:59were requesting."
3:01:01Well, how how did they even know about
3:01:02the letter? Nobody
3:01:04Nobody had the letter. Fred didn't have
3:01:06the letter. I didn't have the letter.
3:01:08The DA I mean, the attorney general
3:01:11didn't have the letter. The only person
3:01:12who allegedly had this letter was Jim
3:01:14Jagger, and so how is the attorney
3:01:15general supposed to know that that
3:01:17letter exists? And the the cover letter
3:01:19from Jim Jagger was one sentence.
3:01:21"Here's the letter that you requested."
3:01:24Who wrote that letter? Cuz it wasn't me.
3:01:27It was not me.
3:01:30So,
3:01:32And of course, they use that letter to
3:01:33say, "See?
3:01:35His his client lied to him, so he's not
3:01:37ineffective for representing her him,
3:01:39because she says she betrayed him. She
3:01:43lied to him. So, now he's not
3:01:45ineffective assistance of a counsel."
3:01:46And they used that to dismiss all of my
3:01:48ineffective assistance of counsel
3:01:49claims.
3:01:50Who had the motivation to write that
3:01:52letter? Not me.
3:01:53As far as I was concerned, Fred was
3:01:56going to work with me. Fred was Fred was
3:01:58going to let me Whether it was true or
3:02:00not, I was convinced on that date that
3:02:03Fred was going to let me see my kids.
3:02:06And that my parents would get to see
3:02:07their grandkids.
3:02:09There was no reason for me to write
3:02:11something as stupid and horrible. Plus,
3:02:14they examined the whole car. There was
3:02:16no marijuana. No marijuana in the trunk,
3:02:19not even residue. And anybody who does
3:02:20drugs, you you deal with a lot of drug
3:02:23addicts. Anybody who deals with drugs
3:02:25has drugs There's residue everywhere.
3:02:28Marijuana is is a crumbly leaf.
3:02:32It would have been everywhere. There's
3:02:33none in the trunk.
3:02:35Why would I write something that was
3:02:37completely fabricated to hurt me,
3:02:41when Fred was going to
3:02:43He didn't want to terminate my parental
3:02:45rights. Go get the transcript. He is the
3:02:47only one
3:02:49that said no.
3:02:52Yeah.
3:02:53So, I'm
3:02:54>> know where the letter came from. So, go
3:02:55ahead. I am
3:02:57When you think about um your two
3:03:00surviving children, so SDB and CAD,
3:03:04how do you think they were impacted from
3:03:06this crime?
3:03:08Oh my god.
3:03:17After this
3:03:21After the shooting,
3:03:23I was still going to work, going to the
3:03:25store, getting gas.
3:03:28And people all the time, because of the
3:03:30media hype, people were constantly
3:03:32going, "Oh, there's that lady. There's
3:03:34that lady that shot her kids."
3:03:38That hurt.
3:03:42Now, look back. Christy had to go to
3:03:44school.
3:03:46"Your mom
3:03:47Your mom shot you."
3:03:49Kids are mean.
3:03:52And then after I went to prison,
3:03:54she's walking in the store. What do you
3:03:55think Christy hears?
3:03:58"Oh, there's that little girl that put
3:03:59her mom in prison." But Christy kept
3:04:01telling him, "I didn't do that Mom
3:04:02didn't do it."
3:04:03CAD kept saying, "Mom didn't do it. Mom
3:04:05didn't do it. Mom didn't do it."
3:04:08When she was 15, she got a receipt of a
3:04:10phone call from a woman in North in
3:04:12Nevada pretending to be a 13-year-old
3:04:14girl. The woman tape recorded the the
3:04:16conversation with CAD.
3:04:18And Christy said, "I don't know what
3:04:20happened.
3:04:21They just kept bothering me, and I said
3:04:23what they wanted to hear so they would
3:04:25leave me alone."
3:04:26Christy knows.
3:04:29Christy knows.
3:04:32And she didn't put me in prison.
3:04:35The state put me in prison. Christy did
3:04:37not
3:04:38Christy did not do this.
3:04:39And yet, Christy has to live with that
3:04:41burden. How has this impacted her?
3:04:47Every single day, Christy has to live
3:04:49with the fact that people behind her
3:04:51back are saying, "You're the one who put
3:04:53your mom in prison."
3:04:56I And I can't protect her from that. I
3:04:59can't save her from that.
3:05:01Danny.
3:05:03My parents saw Daniel when he was
3:05:06They received a phone call
3:05:07from somebody who said, "Your son is
3:05:09going to be at a school fair.
3:05:12I mean, your grandson.
3:05:13I'm sorry, SBD.
3:05:16If you want to see SBD, your grandson,
3:05:19go to the school fair. He's going to be
3:05:21there."
3:05:22So, they went.
3:05:23They sat in the parking lot in their car
3:05:25and they waited.
3:05:26And Joanne showed up with SBD.
3:05:30And she came with his walker
3:05:32to his side of the car
3:05:34and said, "Come on. Let's go see the
3:05:36whatever.
3:05:37The birds."
3:05:39He goes, "No, I want my wheelchair."
3:05:43And she said, "SBD,
3:05:46no.
3:05:47You need to walk. You can walk. You need
3:05:49to practice."
3:05:51"No, I want my wheelchair." My dad said,
3:05:55"My son gave Joanne hell."
3:05:58Sorry, Joanne.
3:06:00My son gave Joanne hell,
3:06:02which meant only that my son was
3:06:05suffering emotionally. He could walk.
3:06:09He didn't want to. He was angry.
3:06:12He was frustrated, because he was so
3:06:15able-bodied. He used to
3:06:16He used to ride on his uncle's shoulders
3:06:18to play basketball.
3:06:20Uncle James would hand the basketball up
3:06:22and he'd put it in.
3:06:24He couldn't do that anymore, because he
3:06:25didn't have an uncle
3:06:27He didn't have an Uncle James anymore.
3:06:31And he didn't have anybody that was
3:06:32going to play basketball with him
3:06:33anymore.
3:06:36How has this impacted my children?
3:06:41How has it not?
3:06:43Everything about their lives.
3:06:46They don't know their grandparents.
3:06:48They don't know their cousins. They had
3:06:49one cousin. They've never seen him
3:06:50again. They have a lot of cousins now.
3:06:52They've never met them.
3:06:55I'm sure they have children, and if
3:06:57Christy's a smart girl, and she is,
3:06:59her children don't
3:07:01If CAD has children, she won't tell them
3:07:05who their grandma is.
3:07:07Because everything that she went
3:07:09through,
3:07:10her children will have to go through.
3:07:12"Oh, your grandma's that crazy woman in
3:07:14prison."
3:07:15How do you think that impacts my
3:07:16children?
3:07:19Everything about this has impacted them.
3:07:23Yeah, the state put me in prison.
3:07:25Culpable, yes, but I am the one
3:07:29I am the one
3:07:31that took them out there that day.
3:07:34That night.
3:07:37You know, just that that earlier that
3:07:39day,
3:07:40I'd got off work and I stopped by the
3:07:42realtor, cuz the kids and I had been
3:07:43house hunting.
3:07:45And we pick we On the weekends, we would
3:07:47go on Sundays. We would go and we found
3:07:49a house up in Cottage Grove where I
3:07:51worked.
3:07:53And I stopped by the realtor.
3:07:55And they said, "Yep, they're willing to
3:07:56make terms with you
3:07:58on putting a small amount down."
3:08:02And uh I came home. I was so excited. I
3:08:04told the kids. They were excited. They'd
3:08:06been asking to adopt a kitten. And when
3:08:08I said they're willing to make terms on
3:08:10us buying that house, we're going to
3:08:11rent to own. We're going to rent first
3:08:13until we get the down payment.
3:08:15And they said, "Then can we now have the
3:08:17kitten?"
3:08:18Absolutely. So, we went and picked up
3:08:19the kitten. We went to the store.
3:08:22We bought kitty litter and we bought cat
3:08:24food.
3:08:27And then that night
3:08:28it was
3:08:30over.
3:08:33Our life was over.
3:08:36How is my decisions impacted my kids?
3:08:40How is it not?
3:08:42How is it not?
3:08:47So, I want to turn to
3:08:49um
3:08:50some previous
3:08:52parole hearings. And I'm just really
3:08:54curious. I mean, why when you think
3:08:56about
3:08:57your previous parole hearings, why do
3:08:59you think you were not paroled?
3:09:01Not found suitable?
3:09:03Not paroled?
3:09:08Well, you know, I you wrote a lot of
3:09:09letters.
3:09:11And
3:09:12I'm not sure on
3:09:14on legal detail.
3:09:17There was minimums involved.
3:09:20And the law says you cannot
3:09:22parole me before unless everybody on the
3:09:24board
3:09:25agrees. You cannot You cannot override
3:09:27the minimum. It takes all five of you to
3:09:29override a minimum.
3:09:31So, there's that.
3:09:33I think everything that we've just
3:09:35discussed
3:09:37because they made the board's previous
3:09:39boards made their decision that day,
3:09:42they did not They were not open to
3:09:44receiving the documents
3:09:47that
3:09:48I have
3:09:50that I didn't know that I would need to
3:09:51present.
3:09:55You are willing to receive those and to
3:09:57take those into under consideration.
3:10:00I think it was a foregone conclusion.
3:10:03I that
3:10:04you just
3:10:06Anybody who's been sentenced under ORS
3:10:08161.725
3:10:11has to be
3:10:14has to be
3:10:15has their imprisonment has to be
3:10:17continued until they are found until it
3:10:20is discovered that they no longer self
3:10:23suffer from a severe personality
3:10:26disorder. Basically, that's the bottom
3:10:27line. There There's other speculations.
3:10:29And again,
3:10:31I can only go by what they said.
3:10:33I
3:10:34And I can speculate on why they they why
3:10:36I think they did what they did, but only
3:10:39they know.
3:10:41But I now have
3:10:42Dr. Milkey
3:10:44I suffer from no major mental disorder.
3:10:48So, therefore, that frees you to make a
3:10:50decision
3:10:53that by law
3:10:54I I mean, I'm I'm not going to try to
3:10:56tell you the law. Three of you are
3:10:57attorneys. You know the law. I don't
3:10:59have to teach you anything that you
3:11:01already know. And it would be
3:11:04stupid of me to try.
3:11:07But I really think that was it. I think
3:11:09because people still said, "Oh, she
3:11:12suffers from a severe mental, you know,
3:11:14disorder."
3:11:16Then then there it is. But now I have
3:11:20a psychologist of your choosing
3:11:22and a psychologist of my attorney's
3:11:24choosing both say the same thing. No
3:11:27severe psychological disorder.
3:11:30And so, therefore, I think it's
3:11:31different this time.
3:11:33I think I believe
3:11:36and I hope for my mom's sake and my
3:11:38brother's sake and my sister and my
3:11:40whole family
3:11:42that you take that into consideration
3:11:44and
3:11:45that the decision will be different this
3:11:47time.
3:11:49You know, I
3:11:51um there's documentation where I've seen
3:11:53you suggest that terrorists or
3:11:57other individuals have threatened parole
3:11:59board members in the past to stop you
3:12:00from being paroled. Do you still feel
3:12:02like that's correct?
3:12:05I I
3:12:07I'm not being facetious, so please don't
3:12:08take it this way.
3:12:10Have you guys received a threat this
3:12:11time?
3:12:13No?
3:12:14Cuz there was a written threat before.
3:12:16There was a written threat.
3:12:18On 2010.
3:12:21And if you have not received any
3:12:22threats, then
3:12:24and I I haven't.
3:12:26Ms. Wheeler said, "Ms. Downs, we
3:12:28understand you're telling the truth.
3:12:30We get it. You haven't been lying to
3:12:32us." So,
3:12:33I am assuming that
3:12:39either the threat doesn't exist
3:12:42or
3:12:44the threatener is gone.
3:12:47And we're all getting old. You guys
3:12:49aren't, but I am. Everybody that I know
3:12:51is. My mom is 88.
3:12:54The
3:12:56Anybody else that was involved in my
3:12:58life, we're all geriatric now.
3:13:01So, perhaps the person that was
3:13:04threatening is also gone.
3:13:07Almost everybody that I that I've known
3:13:08is gone.
3:13:12So, I want to ask you a little bit about
3:13:14some of those statements. And just so
3:13:15you know, I'm we've only got about four
3:13:17more questions on this topic, and then
3:13:19we're going to move on. So, we're get
3:13:20we're getting close to the end of this
3:13:22topic. But I I'm going
3:13:24I do want to ask you that. So, in 2020,
3:13:26you wrote the board and you said the
3:13:28that the 2010 board began your parole
3:13:31hearing with the words, quote, "We have
3:13:34no reason to deny you parole." And
3:13:36concluded concluded that same hearing
3:13:38then by denying you parole. And then you
3:13:40wrote also wrote, quote, "Member Candace
3:13:42Wheeler suggested my elderly parents
3:13:45would be in danger from my stalker if I
3:13:47paroled to them."
3:13:49It's logical to conclude the board
3:13:51simply didn't know how to release me and
3:13:53keep everyone safe from an identifiable
3:13:55threat.
3:13:56And then you you went on to say just a
3:13:58few minutes ago that when I was asking
3:14:01you about the threats, you said that Ms.
3:14:02Wheeler had said, "You have not been
3:14:04lying to us. We get it."
3:14:06So, the interesting thing, right, is
3:14:07that we actually have the transcript for
3:14:09the 2010 parole hearing, and none of
3:14:11those words are there.
3:14:13So, can you help me out Can you help me
3:14:15out with that?
3:14:17You do not have the transcript of the
3:14:182010 hearing.
3:14:20You do not have the transcript of the
3:14:212010 hearing.
3:14:23I received They were They were refused
3:14:25to give it to me in 2010 when I was
3:14:27doing my request for administrative
3:14:28review. I asked for a copy of the
3:14:30transcript because the Exhibit A was
3:14:33going to be Candace Wheeler saying, "Ms.
3:14:35Downs, you have done more than we have
3:14:37asked. That is amazing. We have no
3:14:39reason to deny you parole." That was
3:14:41going to be Exhibit A.
3:14:43And they did not send me the transcript.
3:14:45I asked for a transcript again. They
3:14:47also didn't send me their
3:14:49uh
3:14:50a batch sheet for a long time. For a
3:14:53long time. But I asked for that
3:14:55transcript three times. By the third
3:14:58time, which was like 2 years later,
3:15:02the next board, Ms. Wheeler was gone,
3:15:04and the next board perceived that as a
3:15:06request for a parole for a parole
3:15:08consideration hearing. It was not a
3:15:10request for a parole consideration
3:15:11hearing. I was still requesting the
3:15:13transcript from the 2010 hearing. So, it
3:15:16was misconstrued. They still did not
3:15:18give it to me. It was not until Joanne
3:15:21Miller sent me a copy of the transcript.
3:15:24My brother got a thumb drive. Finally,
3:15:26in 2020, it was like
3:15:283 months, 4 months before the the
3:15:30hearing, my brother contacted
3:15:33the secretary there, and she sent him a
3:15:35thumb drive of the audio of the
3:15:37transcript.
3:15:38And he just lit into me. "Diane, why are
3:15:41you so mean to those people? Why were
3:15:42you arguing with that man?" I said there
3:15:45was only one man, Aaron Felton, and he
3:15:47only said two sentences. What are you
3:15:48talking about? He goes, "No, he didn't.
3:15:50You You guys argued for 2 hours. You
3:15:52guys You just kept getting in his face
3:15:54and arguing with him." And I said I did
3:15:56not. I said Ms. Wheeler was the one. She
3:15:59was the chairperson. She's the one that
3:16:01carried the day.
3:16:02And he goes, "No, Diane, I'm listening
3:16:04to it right now." And he was very, very
3:16:06upset at me.
3:16:07And I And I couldn't get a thumb drive.
3:16:10And it wasn't until Joanne Miller sent
3:16:12me a copy, not even the board. The board
3:16:14still did not send me a copy of the
3:16:16transcript. It wasn't until Joanne
3:16:18Miller sent me a copy of the transcript
3:16:20that I read it and went, "This is not
3:16:24not
3:16:25a copy of the hearing.
3:16:27I speak in contractions. I don't want to
3:16:29go. I didn't do that. I can't remember.
3:16:33The whole thing is not There's not one
3:16:36contraction in it.
3:16:38I I
3:16:40I don't know what it is, but it's not
3:16:42me. And the thumb drive, he says, "But
3:16:44Diane," my brother said, "Diane, it
3:16:46sounds like you." I said, "But it's not
3:16:48me."
3:16:49I I don't know what to tell you except
3:16:52And that's why Michelle Giten, the the
3:16:54following when I went to board in 2020,
3:16:57that was her big hang-up because I had
3:16:59not received a copy of the transcript
3:17:01yet, so I didn't know that it was a
3:17:02forgery.
3:17:04And when I told her what Candace Wheeler
3:17:05said,
3:17:07she wrote in her report that your
3:17:09version does not match reality.
3:17:13My version is reality, and what you guys
3:17:15have is not. You need to go back. You
3:17:18have access. And if you're honest with
3:17:21yourself, if you really want to know the
3:17:22truth, go back and get the real video
3:17:25tape.
3:17:26The real video tape and see what was
3:17:28really said. I know you guys can do it.
3:17:31I really don't think somebody destroyed
3:17:32it. Maybe they did. I hope they didn't.
3:17:35And see the real video tape that was
3:17:38said. Candace Wheeler carried the whole
3:17:39day. We spent literally 2 hours talking
3:17:42about We didn't talk about the case. We
3:17:44spent 2 hours talking about where I
3:17:46would
3:17:47parole and what I would do for a living.
3:17:50That was what we talked about for 2
3:17:52hours. And then at the end, she goes,
3:17:54"Okay, so we're going to go ahead and
3:17:55deny you parole.
3:17:57Do you understand? Oh, and we'll see you
3:17:58in 2 years. Do you understand?" I said,
3:18:00"No. No, I don't."
3:18:02She goes, "We're denying you parole. We
3:18:04had a new law in 2009. We're denying you
3:18:07parole for 10 years, and we'll see you
3:18:09in two. Do you understand?"
3:18:11No, I still don't.
3:18:13So, there you go. Okay.
3:18:15Every time I go to the board, I
3:18:17submit a request for administrative
3:18:19review.
3:18:20There is no request for administrative
3:18:22review for the 2010 hearing because I
3:18:24never received a copy of the transcript
3:18:26and I never had the opportunity to
3:18:29request review.
3:18:32And there you go. That because they
3:18:33didn't send me the back sheet for the
3:18:35longest. That is the only one that does
3:18:37not have an administrative review.
3:18:40Because I did not have a copy of the
3:18:42transcript. Because they didn't want me
3:18:44to have it.
3:18:45Because of what it said. All right, so
3:18:47Ms. Downs, I I I appreciate that, but
3:18:50but I I want to ask you this question
3:18:52because I got two remaining.
3:18:56So, I'm talking I'm going to talk about
3:18:58the evaluation that you had with Dr.
3:18:59Guidon. This is a few years ago.
3:19:02So, and before I ask you this question,
3:19:04what what I what I
3:19:06I want to relate to you, right, is that
3:19:08it's not the board's job.
3:19:12Certainly not within our purview to
3:19:13decide whether you did or did not in
3:19:16fact
3:19:17commit the crimes that you were
3:19:19convicted of. Right, that is not the
3:19:21board's role.
3:19:22So, as of now, I have
3:19:25that you have been convicted
3:19:28for committing these crimes.
3:19:30And many of the questions we asked you
3:19:32were designed to kind of get at your
3:19:33insight and to get your understanding
3:19:36and to get your perspective.
3:19:38So, I want to read you what Dr. Guidon
3:19:39wrote because this is something that's
3:19:41on my mind and I want to get your
3:19:43feedback. She wrote, quote,
3:19:45"Her previous violence occurred in the
3:19:47context of her care of vulnerable
3:19:49children
3:19:51for some purpose that has not yet been
3:19:53fully understood due to her denial of
3:19:56responsibility.
3:19:58Without understanding the motivations
3:20:00that led towards these acts, it is
3:20:02difficult to understand the risk of
3:20:05violence she poses in future situations
3:20:09if she should perceive a benefit for
3:20:13herself and the harm or removal of
3:20:16another vulnerable individual."
3:20:19I'm just curious to get your feedback on
3:20:21that statement.
3:20:25I'm 70 years old.
3:20:28Um
3:20:30Uh there aren't any more vulnerable
3:20:33people in my life.
3:20:35Um at least no more vulnerable than I
3:20:38am.
3:20:40I am actually innocent.
3:20:42I know it's not your job to decide
3:20:44whether or not
3:20:45I'm innocent. That's my attorney's job
3:20:48and she will be taking that up
3:20:50next week.
3:20:52Well, beginning the process. It is a
3:20:54process.
3:20:56And
3:20:59I I don't know how else to address that.
3:21:01I I did not commit this crime.
3:21:04There's no reason to believe that I
3:21:06would commit another crime
3:21:08that somebody else committed that I I
3:21:12There's no reason to believe that.
3:21:16All right, and then lastly
3:21:20Um
3:21:31So, you know, ultimately what I think
3:21:33about
3:21:35is that
3:21:36I wonder
3:21:40whether or not
3:21:43Um
3:21:45that one of the reasons why you claim
3:21:47innocence, and I just want your
3:21:49feedback.
3:21:51Mhm. Is that
3:21:54because of all of the things that have
3:21:56been identified about the narcissistic
3:21:58personality disorder
3:22:01that it's just too much for you to be
3:22:04able to admit
3:22:06that you harmed your own children.
3:22:09And that you've convinced yourself that
3:22:11you were not involved because it's just
3:22:13too much. It's too hard to admit
3:22:16that you were responsible for that. I
3:22:18wonder whether or not that is
3:22:21kind of what's going on and I
3:22:25you know, I don't necessarily I guess
3:22:26expect an epiphany today. I'm just
3:22:28curious with your you know, for your
3:22:30feedback on that. That's all.
3:22:35I did not shoot my children.
3:22:37I know
3:22:40full well I did not shoot my children.
3:22:41There is no little secret locked away in
3:22:43my brain.
3:22:45Um there was no gunshot residue on my
3:22:47hands.
3:22:48Uh the gun, they spent hours and hours
3:22:52and hours and weeks looking for the gun,
3:22:55never found it. So, it wasn't like it
3:22:57was just uh um
3:23:01somewhere along the route.
3:23:03Um there
3:23:07is no reason
3:23:09I didn't have money problems. Somebody
3:23:11said I don't have I didn't have money I
3:23:12had money problems. I think that was in
3:23:14somebody's report, the the DA's report.
3:23:16I didn't have money problems. I had
3:23:17money in the bank.
3:23:19We were buying a house. I had a
3:23:21full-time job with the federal
3:23:22government.
3:23:23There were no stressors in my life.
3:23:26I had moved close to my parents. My
3:23:28parents were babysitting. My mom was
3:23:30babysitting. My dad was at work all day
3:23:32and my mom was at home all day
3:23:34babysitting my kids. So, I knew that
3:23:37they were safe and they were being cared
3:23:38for.
3:23:40Um I was no longer getting beat up by my
3:23:42ex-husband.
3:23:44Uh I had a new boyfriend.
3:23:48I mean, I was young and stupid and back
3:23:50then new boyfriends were cool.
3:23:52So, there was no motivation for me to
3:23:56commit that crime.
3:23:58And I didn't commit that crime and now
3:24:00we have evidence in the form of DNA and
3:24:03witnesses and confession of the person
3:24:05who actually did it
3:24:07that will prove
3:24:09that I did not commit this crime.
3:24:12I have searched my soul.
3:24:14The police
3:24:16for
3:24:17months
3:24:18kept saying, "Diane, you just don't
3:24:20remember everything. You block things
3:24:22out. You You are repressed."
3:24:26And so, I would think and think and
3:24:28think and think, "What is it that I'm
3:24:30missing? What is it that I'm missing?"
3:24:32And if I would think about it so much
3:24:33that I would have nightmares about it.
3:24:35And then I would think, "Maybe my
3:24:36nightmares are my unconscious mind
3:24:38trying to give me the answers."
3:24:41But that wasn't it. That wasn't the case
3:24:42either. That was simply people planting
3:24:44thoughts. I can relate to what CAD had
3:24:47to go through with people saying, "Well,
3:24:49okay, but do you think maybe your mom
3:24:52and you just don't want to say it
3:24:53because it's not safe." I mean,
3:24:55everything that you just said and you're
3:24:57not even an attorney, but everything you
3:24:59just said came straight out of the Lake
3:25:01County playbook right there and that's
3:25:03why I was kind of smiling.
3:25:05Because that's the kind of thing that
3:25:06they said to me back then. That's the
3:25:08things they said to CAD. And and and
3:25:12there's no repression.
3:25:14I did not There's physical evidence that
3:25:16I did not shoot my children. There's no
3:25:18physical evidence that I did shoot my
3:25:20children. I am actually innocent. My
3:25:22attorney is going to be working her butt
3:25:26off on that and
3:25:28maybe just maybe when this is all over
3:25:32I will have answers
3:25:34for what happened and why.
3:25:38All right. Well, thank you, Ms. Downs.
3:25:40Again, I know I you know, I asked a lot
3:25:41of questions on this topic.
3:25:44Ms. Leavitt, are there any additional
3:25:45questions? Yes.
3:25:48So, uh Mr. Bailey asked you to tell us
3:25:50what happened on April 7th. And what you
3:25:54said is that you you talked about your
3:25:57friend Heather,
3:25:59the horse,
3:26:01taking the article or the ad to her,
3:26:04and then on the way back running into
3:26:06this person on the road.
3:26:09That's what you say happened that night,
3:26:11correct?
3:26:12Yes, May 19th. Okay.
3:26:15So, you had a psychological evaluation
3:26:18with Dr. Milkey.
3:26:20You said that Dr. Milkey it was in
3:26:22general a good evaluation.
3:26:25Um and so, at the time
3:26:28of your evaluation, he asked you what
3:26:31happened.
3:26:33And this is not what you told him.
3:26:35What you told him
3:26:38is that you were romantically involved
3:26:40with an investigator who was attempting
3:26:42to bring down a dirty DA.
3:26:45This person pursued you to enter an
3:26:48environment where illegal activities
3:26:50were occurring.
3:26:53Um you go on to say that you received an
3:26:56anonymous phone call telling her, "If I
3:27:00wanted pictures of Pat Horton for my
3:27:02boyfriend, come on over."
3:27:05You then went to meet that person to get
3:27:07these pictures and took the children
3:27:10with you.
3:27:11You stopped in the road where you saw a
3:27:13man.
3:27:15You got out of the car.
3:27:17The man leaped into the car and then and
3:27:19began discharging the firearm.
3:27:22Then you talked about pretending to
3:27:24throw the keys.
3:27:28So, that's not what you told us this
3:27:29morning. And this was
3:27:31not that long ago that you told Dr.
3:27:34Milkey
3:27:35that this was
3:27:37what happened.
3:27:39Why is there such a huge discrepancy
3:27:43in your version of what happened today?
3:27:47I don't perceive it as a huge
3:27:49discrepancy.
3:27:50I did go to Heather's house. We did take
3:27:53her a an ad and I did meet a man on the
3:27:56road and he did get in the car,
3:27:59discharge the weapon, and we struggled.
3:28:01Okay. Well, you did not
3:28:03>> the truth.
3:28:04You did not tell us, however,
3:28:07that you would receive the phone call
3:28:09that took you out there.
3:28:12Did you?
3:28:14Anisha?
3:28:17Still under restraint until we finish
3:28:19our DNA.
3:28:23I can't hear you, attorney. I can't hear
3:28:25you, attorney.
3:28:30It would be better to not discuss any
3:28:32alternate theories right now. I will be
3:28:34sitting on her new evidence. I don't
3:28:36want to I don't want to
3:28:39She has a case to present
3:28:42and I'm leaving it alone. Okay, so you
3:28:45you're refusing to answer that question
3:28:47about the discrepancies on the advice of
3:28:49counsel. Is that what I'm hearing?
3:28:51>> There you go. All right, let's go on
3:28:53then.
3:28:56You also
3:28:58um
3:29:00talked about
3:29:02in another events that your that the
3:29:06woman claiming to be your daughter Amy
3:29:09that her father was the person
3:29:13who shot the children. Do you recall
3:29:15that?
3:29:16No. No, no, no, no, no. Not claiming.
3:29:20Claiming
3:29:20>> Everybody keeps saying Everybody keeps
3:29:22uh saying that I'm claiming this stuff.
3:29:25I'm asking.
3:29:27I'm asking. He is John Butkee's friend
3:29:30Frank.
3:29:31Michael Hart
3:29:33This man has so many aliases. It is He's
3:29:38the stalker. He is the stalker.
3:29:40>> Wait, wait, wait. So If you get
3:29:43Michael
3:29:43>> newspaper article Michael Hart's your
3:29:45stalker.
3:29:47Yes. And he's been stalking you
3:29:51since
3:29:51>> Since at least 1984. My first letter
3:29:53from him was from 1984. Okay.
3:29:56But Michael Hart
3:29:58is Mr. Butkee who is also Mr.
3:30:04Okay.
3:30:04>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
3:30:06John Butkee and John Stevens are the
3:30:08same person. Okay.
3:30:10>> their photographs.
3:30:12Michael Hart
3:30:13um Eric Jacobson, Frank
3:30:17are all the same person.
3:30:19If you cared
3:30:21to see that, there is a photograph of
3:30:24both of these men in the Statesman
3:30:26Journal in September of 19 90 No, 1987.
3:30:32September 1987, Statesman Journal. Both
3:30:35John Stevens and Frank have their
3:30:38photographs.
3:30:40And you will see them. Now you will be
3:30:41able to compare
3:30:43Frank with Michael Hart.
3:30:46They have been trying since 1987 at
3:30:49least to get me to sign a waiver so that
3:30:54I would release sign a media release so
3:30:57they could make a movie.
3:30:59And I refused.
3:31:03Okay.
3:31:05So
3:31:06>> But using Using the name Michael Hart
3:31:09using the name Michael Hart did not come
3:31:11up until
3:31:12with photographs complete with
3:31:14photographs came up in 2000 2000. Until
3:31:17then he was using Eric Jacobson, all
3:31:20these other aliases. The same man, same
3:31:23syntax, same everything. In 19 I mean in
3:31:272000 Michael Hart wrote, sent me
3:31:31photographs of himself
3:31:33and they were Frank from the Statesman
3:31:36Journal newspaper.
3:31:38He also recently sent me pictures of
3:31:42himself with Rebecca Babcock.
3:31:45And they're definitely father and
3:31:47daughter.
3:31:50Okay.
3:31:51Okay.
3:31:54This is quite Do you understand that
3:31:55this is quite convoluted?
3:31:58Yes. Okay. Yes. So And that's why when
3:32:02you were asking earlier I said a
3:32:04lightbulb went on. How better to destroy
3:32:07me and convince you Threatening you to
3:32:09keep me in prison is no biggie, but if
3:32:12they can convince you that I'm crazy
3:32:14even though I have the photographs to
3:32:15prove it. Even though I have the letters
3:32:17to prove it. Even though I have
3:32:19everything I can to prove it, you have
3:32:21to want to see it Okay. in order to be
3:32:24convinced. Okay, but Ms. Downs, why?
3:32:27Why
3:32:29have so many people over so many years
3:32:34created this
3:32:36very involved, convoluted, tangled
3:32:41conspiracy
3:32:43around the murder of one child and
3:32:47attempted murder of two others.
3:32:50Why are you so critical
3:32:54in this conspiracy that
3:32:56this is so much effort and time and
3:33:01money
3:33:02has been
3:33:03spent on you?
3:33:07I I don't know. Why Why Why is that?
3:33:11I wish you really, really, really,
3:33:12really meant that because maybe you
3:33:14would help me find out because that's my
3:33:16ans- that's my question. Why? Why me?
3:33:19I'm nobody. I was I was a shy
3:33:23naive homebody who worked for the post
3:33:26office. I didn't know anybody. I didn't
3:33:29I
3:33:30I I'm not a government employee. Well,
3:33:32post office, but I'm nobody. Why me
3:33:36unless it's personal?
3:33:38But I don't know who it is.
3:33:40All these faces that I see, all the
3:33:41photographs that I see
3:33:43I don't know those people.
3:33:45So is it somebody they know?
3:33:48I don't know.
3:33:50Is it I I have been known to date a
3:33:54married man or two.
3:33:56Is it somebody's wife? I don't know and
3:33:58I'm not making allegations. This is what
3:34:00I say. I don't know.
3:34:03I wish I did know.
3:34:05I keep asking. Why? Why my children?
3:34:08Well, so you really think it's possible
3:34:11that the wife of a man who you slept
3:34:13with back in Arizona
3:34:15>> no, no.
3:34:16You're I mean I'm just saying you're
3:34:17riffing saying it Could it be somebody's
3:34:20wife? Could it be? Well, then who is it?
3:34:23A real police officer, one who's
3:34:25actually in interested in in
3:34:27investigating a case. Not
3:34:30Unfortunately, human nature is that they
3:34:32have a gut feeling and they try to make
3:34:34everything fit into the case. This is
3:34:36human nature. You can't fault them for
3:34:38it.
3:34:39But
3:34:40a real true investigator gets all the
3:34:42evidence and let it sit lead to the
3:34:44answer.
3:34:46My questions are
3:34:48questions that would lead to an answer.
3:34:51Why me? Why my children? Why Michael
3:34:53Hart? Who is Michael Hart? Why Rebecca
3:34:56Babcock? Who is Rebecca Babcock? Why
3:34:58John Butkee? Who is John Butkee? Who do
3:35:00they know? Who are their friends? That's
3:35:02my questions. They're not allegations. I
3:35:05don't even know these people well enough
3:35:07to make an allegation. What I can show
3:35:09you is physical proof in the form of
3:35:12photographs and documents that prove I'm
3:35:15telling the truth.
3:35:17That you have to want to see it. You
3:35:19have to want to hear it and to make and
3:35:23allow it to make an impact on you. Now
3:35:25the problem that we're facing right now
3:35:28is that
3:35:29like Mr. Bailey said we're not here to
3:35:31retry the case. We're not here to prove
3:35:35my innocence. Your job is to decide
3:35:37whether or not I am I have a severe
3:35:40personality disorder. Dr. Milteer says I
3:35:43do not. Dr. Guyton says I do not.
3:35:46So
3:35:48all of these other questions
3:35:50bug you as much as they bug me.
3:35:52But you're not in a position because
3:35:54you're not investigators and you don't
3:35:55have the time and you don't have the
3:35:57resources and you don't have the desire
3:35:59to get the answers. So And that is not a
3:36:02judgment call. I'm just saying you don't
3:36:04have the desire to get the answers. So
3:36:06it accomplishes nothing. That's
3:36:08Venisha's job. Venisha is
3:36:11getting paid
3:36:13to get the answers, to get the
3:36:14documents, to get the evidence.
3:36:17The irrefutable evidence
3:36:19to find the answers. And I may go to my
3:36:22grave never having these answers.
3:36:25He's been 42 years and I still
3:36:28don't know all the answers.
3:36:30I don't. I wish I did, but I'm not
3:36:33accusing people. I'm asking questions
3:36:36that I wish other people would ask.
3:36:39I I just do.
3:36:44Okay. Um
3:36:45So I I guess
3:36:50we do have a copy of a transcript from
3:36:54uh
3:36:56December 10th, 2010 board hearing where
3:36:59you said
3:37:01I finally got my answers. I'm no longer
3:37:04having to actively pursue and hunt.
3:37:09It's allowed me to become the person I
3:37:10am suggesting that you knew
3:37:14who the killer was in 2010.
3:37:18Thank you for that because does it Do I
3:37:20sound like a person who has all the
3:37:21answers?
3:37:23No. And that transcript that you're
3:37:25reading is not real. It's not real.
3:37:28Okay.
3:37:30This person that you're looking at right
3:37:31now does not know the answers. If I did,
3:37:35I would be
3:37:37giving you the answers. And I keep
3:37:39asking questions because I don't have
3:37:41the answers.
3:37:44Um okay. I have a question. It's a ten
3:37:47cent tangentially related to something
3:37:49you said. Um
3:37:51Mr. Bailey was asking you about
3:37:53accountability and what essentially you
3:37:56think your children went through and you
3:37:57said you s-
3:38:00You hope that one day you will know they
3:38:03will know what really happened.
3:38:05Um
3:38:08And there it's there's reference to a
3:38:10website, diannedowns.com.
3:38:14Mhm. Okay, that's something your brother
3:38:16runs, is that right?
3:38:19My dad started it in 2005.
3:38:21>> Uh-huh. He wanted me to help him and I
3:38:23didn't I didn't think it would do any
3:38:25good and I thought it was a waste of
3:38:28time. So my dad blundered around because
3:38:31he didn't have all the answers either
3:38:33and my dad put a lot of stuff on there.
3:38:35I've never read it. I don't know. I'm in
3:38:36here. I don't have access to it so I
3:38:38don't know what all's on there.
3:38:40After dad passed,
3:38:41uh James, my brother, took it up and in
3:38:45honor of dad and in support of me, he
3:38:49continues to maintain the website.
3:38:53When I found that out, I decided and
3:38:55Michelle, um Dr. Guyton, and 5 years ago
3:39:00said
3:39:02she fears that if I get out of prison
3:39:04that I will use the internet and police
3:39:06agencies to try to prove my innocence.
3:39:08That is her only fear.
3:39:10That and uh
3:39:12vulnerable people. Those are only two
3:39:14fears.
3:39:16So I
3:39:17drafted I got together a bunch of
3:39:19transcripts
3:39:20and
3:39:22made cover letters and I put them on the
3:39:25on the website
3:39:28to show you and to show Michelle that I
3:39:31don't have to be free to use the
3:39:33internet. It wasn't a slap in the face.
3:39:36It was a visual showing of you don't
3:39:40have to be afraid of that anymore.
3:39:42I put on what I wanted to put on. I
3:39:44haven't put anything on there in
3:39:46probably 2 years. Maybe three.
3:39:49Because I don't have an interest in the
3:39:51internet. I don't have an interest in in
3:39:53going online. I I I People have
3:39:56contacted me. They want to do podcasts
3:39:58to try to prove my innocence. Not
3:40:00interested. None. I had this this lady
3:40:03call me uh contact me and she says,
3:40:06"Nobody even remembers your case
3:40:07anymore. Nobody even knows who you are.
3:40:09Nobody knows anything about the case. We
3:40:12want to do a podcast to refresh people's
3:40:14memories." No. That's the very reason I
3:40:16don't want to do a podcast. No. But
3:40:19leave it alone. Leave it alone.
3:40:22So
3:40:23but I wanted I The only reason I
3:40:25contributed on it back in 2020 and 2021
3:40:29was to show Michelle Guyton to and you
3:40:33that there's no reason to fear that and
3:40:36Dr. Milby accepted that um
3:40:39that explanation. If I wanted to put
3:40:41stuff on there, I'd have been putting it
3:40:43on there from 2005. Not interested. I'm
3:40:46not I didn't grow up in the tech world
3:40:48like all of you did. I'm still living in
3:40:50the '80s.
3:40:51I'm
3:40:53I
3:40:54don't even know how to use a phone out
3:40:56there. My brother will teach me. That's
3:40:58my family wants me to come home and
3:41:00we'll talk about that with my parole
3:41:01plans, but
3:41:03there you go. So are are there was a
3:41:06comment and I'm quite honestly not sure
3:41:09if it was you or your brother who made
3:41:11the comment that you're hoping at some
3:41:14point your children
3:41:17will see what's on there
3:41:19and be able to access the website.
3:41:23What do you hope will get out to them?
3:41:28Christie told
3:41:30the doctors and the detectives and the
3:41:32nurses
3:41:34and the psychiatrist psychologist
3:41:37I don't know what happened. I don't know
3:41:38what happened. I don't know what
3:41:39happened.
3:41:42My son told his nurses over and over
3:41:46that mean man with the gun shot me. That
3:41:48nasty man with the gun shot me.
3:41:50Why did that man shoot me?
3:41:52Those are in the documents.
3:41:55My son, S D D, now says mom did it.
3:42:00He was three.
3:42:01He was speaking what he experienced back
3:42:04in 1983 when he said these things to his
3:42:07nurse. He must have heard the man's
3:42:09voice.
3:42:12Now he says mom did it.
3:42:16If he could see the truth,
3:42:20would it give him some peace?
3:42:23I know for a fact that Christie still
3:42:24says and when she was 15, "I don't know
3:42:27what happened." But nobody believes her.
3:42:30Nobody confirms for her that what she
3:42:33says is real. They're constantly saying,
3:42:36"Oh yes, you do.
3:42:37You're a liar."
3:42:38They're constantly questioning
3:42:41her
3:42:43what she knows to be true.
3:42:46We now have two experts that are willing
3:42:48to testify
3:42:50that C A D really didn't have any
3:42:54memory. It's psychologically and
3:42:57physically impossible for her to have a
3:42:59memory.
3:43:00I want my child to know that somebody
3:43:03believes in her.
3:43:05She is validated. She told them over for
3:43:099 months, "My mom didn't do it. My mom
3:43:11didn't do it. Who did it? Not my mom. My
3:43:13mom's not me. My mom didn't do it. Who I
3:43:16don't know what happened. My mom is not
3:43:18me. My mom did over and over and over."
3:43:21But they kept saying, "You're wrong.
3:43:23You're lying. You're repressing."
3:43:25Constantly. And now we have a
3:43:27world-renowned expert that validates C A
3:43:31D. Validates my child so that now she
3:43:34can say somebody
3:43:36finally. Can you imagine the weight that
3:43:39will be lifted off her shoulders if she
3:43:41can
3:43:41finally
3:43:43hold her head up and say, "Somebody
3:43:44believes me. Somebody believes me."
3:43:51Okay. Um one moment.
3:44:09I I don't have any other questions.
3:44:11All right, Ms. Brooks.
3:44:13The vast majority of my questions have
3:44:15already been asked by the previous two
3:44:18board members, but I do
3:44:20in my head I'm trying to get a better
3:44:22sense of your description of the crimes.
3:44:26Can you tell me where were your children
3:44:28sitting in the car?
3:44:31Chris
3:44:32C A D and S D D were laying down in the
3:44:35backseat. C L D was curled up on the
3:44:39floorboard of the front uh in front of
3:44:41the front passenger seat.
3:44:43C A D was behind the passenger seat. S D
3:44:46D was behind the driver seat. Okay. So
3:44:49your son was not in a car seat or
3:44:51anything like that.
3:44:53No. This was the '80s.
3:44:55>> Okay.
3:44:55>> No.
3:44:56Um okay. Cuz my next question was going
3:44:58to be and perhaps you've kind of
3:45:00answered this. How did two of your three
3:45:02children get shot in the back?
3:45:06They were laying down.
3:45:09Uh S D D was uh laying
3:45:13uh
3:45:15I don't know. He he was he was laying
3:45:17down. They were sleeping. Okay. Okay.
3:45:19I'm just
3:45:20>> they Yeah. I I I can't even tell you how
3:45:23he was laying down. I uh extrapolated
3:45:26that he must have been laying on his
3:45:27right side, but that's
3:45:30post. I I don't know. I didn't see.
3:45:33I I don't know.
3:45:35Okay.
3:45:38So you've told us a pretty concise
3:45:42version of what happened. There was one
3:45:45man who did this.
3:45:48Um
3:45:50and
3:45:51>> one man that I saw.
3:45:53Okay. One man
3:45:54>> I saw. Correct. One man
3:45:56>> four
3:45:57four different sets of shoe prints at
3:45:58the crime scene. Not mine.
3:46:01Okay. But your memory, what you've told
3:46:04us repeatedly today is you saw one man
3:46:06one man entered your car. One man shot
3:46:09your children. Correct?
3:46:11Okay.
3:46:11>> Correct. So a minute ago when you were
3:46:13speaking to Ms. Cleaver, you
3:46:16got a little agitated and said,
3:46:18"Everyone keeps saying
3:46:21I'm claiming stuff. I'm not. I'm just
3:46:23asking." because you've been
3:46:26People have told you and it's very clear
3:46:29from this record that you are alleged to
3:46:31have given multiple different versions
3:46:33of what happened over the years. Is that
3:46:35correct?
3:46:37Uh incorrect, but kind of uh
3:46:39Depends on your version of over the
3:46:41years.
3:46:42Uh in in my parole board hearings.
3:46:45Okay. Well, so
3:46:49I I
3:46:50In for example, in 2010 you said, "I
3:46:52wasn't changing my story when I gave
3:46:54these different events. I was trying to
3:46:55help." By what? Repeating things that
3:46:58happened in dreams or that people told
3:47:00you? Is that correct?
3:47:03Before the parole board hearings,
3:47:06the story, if that's what you want to
3:47:08call it, was always the same.
3:47:11When I came to the parole board in 2010,
3:47:18I actually believed
3:47:21There we go. I actually believed that
3:47:23the parole board really wanted to know
3:47:25the truth because your decision will
3:47:28decide whether or not I stay in prison
3:47:31or whether I go home.
3:47:33And so
3:47:34I made the assumption that the parole
3:47:36board wanted to know the truth.
3:47:39And so I told them everything and that
3:47:42they wanted to to understand and so I
3:47:45told them everything
3:47:47that I could conceive of that they would
3:47:50need to know
3:47:52because I thought you were an
3:47:53investigative body. I
3:47:55And
3:47:57I still think you are. I don't know. I
3:47:58still think you are. I don't know what
3:48:00the parole board's job is. I
3:48:03but I had it in my mind because you sent
3:48:06a psychologist to investigate me and and
3:48:10because you ask
3:48:12questions that seem probing, I assumed
3:48:15that the parole board is an
3:48:16investigative body.
3:48:19But Mr. Bailey today, he actually did I
3:48:22appreciate that so much Mr. Bailey cuz
3:48:24you you made a point to me that sets me
3:48:27straight, which is the trial is over.
3:48:30What we're talking about today is do you
3:48:32have a personality a severe personality
3:48:34disorder? And that's it. Because your
3:48:37job is simply to enforce the punishment
3:48:40and not to retry the case. And so
3:48:44when they this is like an initial what
3:48:46we're doing today is kind of like an
3:48:47initial parole board hearing. I've had
3:48:49this is my fourth one. And each one of
3:48:51them is like an initial parole board
3:48:53hearing hearing.
3:48:55And so
3:48:56initially, I thought
3:48:58like I said, that it was a probative
3:49:00body and so I answered the questions to
3:49:02the best of my ability. Then the next
3:49:04time it happened again, no, the next
3:49:06time it didn't. In in 2010, they didn't
3:49:09we didn't talk about the case at all.
3:49:11But it was two of the members were the
3:49:12same. Miss
3:49:14uh
3:49:14Miss Wheeler and Miss Baker were the
3:49:15same. And so we didn't talk about the
3:49:17case at all in the in the second
3:49:19hearing. And then in 2010, it was again
3:49:22an initial parole board hearing. And so
3:49:24again, I thought well this they're
3:49:25probing. They're they're investigators.
3:49:28They're investigating.
3:49:30And then
3:49:31and I genuinely Mr. Bailey, I am
3:49:33sincerely genuine I am very thankful
3:49:36because
3:49:38I understand now that I've been
3:49:39misguided. By myself. I guess by my
3:49:42hope. Because I want answers and I keep
3:49:44hoping that you'll help me get the
3:49:45answers. So I think we're
3:49:47I think we're I think we're getting off
3:49:49track relevant to my question.
3:49:51>> Yeah.
3:49:51So you testified a minute ago that
3:49:54before 2010, your stories had your story
3:49:56had always been the same. But the record
3:49:59shows that you told police
3:50:01this was done by one man. You then a
3:50:03bushy-haired stranger. Then it said
3:50:05there was two men wearing ski masks.
3:50:07Which is clearly not consistent with
3:50:09what you told us today. Then Okay.
3:50:12>> you knew who shot the children.
3:50:14Then you claimed the kids were shot from
3:50:16outside the car.
3:50:18Though that's obviously in conflict with
3:50:20what you said today. So I help me
3:50:22understand.
3:50:24Okay, thank you. Now see that is a good
3:50:26question. That I can answer cuz it's not
3:50:28just out there.
3:50:30Bushy-haired stranger was the the
3:50:32state's term, not mine.
3:50:33I told them and I gave a composite and
3:50:37they said Diane Downs said a
3:50:38bushy-haired stranger did it. I never
3:50:40said that. I have never used the term
3:50:41bushy-haired stranger. It was my
3:50:43attorney who later informed me that that
3:50:46is a term that the police throw out so
3:50:48that every other police agency across
3:50:50the nation understands this is a this is
3:50:54our case and not her case. We've got
3:50:57this and and it doesn't she's she's the
3:51:00suspect and nobody else. I did not know
3:51:02that. So I never said bushy-haired
3:51:04stranger.
3:51:05Um then the police kept saying you
3:51:10have to remember. You're suppressing.
3:51:12You're repressing. You're intentionally
3:51:14lying. You're not remembering. And I
3:51:16told them everything that I that
3:51:18happened.
3:51:19And but they kept asking these questions
3:51:23and
3:51:24trying to undermine my confidence that I
3:51:26remembered everything. And then I would
3:51:28have and that would cause me to have
3:51:30nightmares.
3:51:31And so when I would have a nightmare, I
3:51:32would think that was my unconscious mind
3:51:34unlocking
3:51:35memories that I had repressed. The
3:51:38police said I repressed it and my
3:51:39parents raised me to believe the police
3:51:41were the good guys. So I still believe
3:51:43the police are the good guys. So
3:51:46when the next time they called me at
3:51:47work and they said, Diane, we need you
3:51:49to come to the police department and to
3:51:51the DA's office. We need you to come
3:51:53down here after work.
3:51:55Okay, we have some information for you.
3:51:57So I would drive I'd get off work. I'd
3:51:58go drive to to meet with Doug and and
3:52:02Kirk.
3:52:03And
3:52:04they didn't have any questions. They
3:52:05didn't have any new information. They
3:52:07simply wanted to interrogate me, but I
3:52:08didn't know that. They said they had
3:52:10information. So then I said, well, they
3:52:13said anything new come up? Do you have
3:52:15any new information? Do you have any has
3:52:17some of your memory just unfolded for
3:52:19us? And I said, well, I had a dream and
3:52:22maybe it's my unconscious mind.
3:52:25And there you go. And so that became the
3:52:27next change of story, but it wasn't a
3:52:29change of story. It's me looking for
3:52:31answers. They told me I had the answers
3:52:34locked in my head.
3:52:36And there's no answers locked in my
3:52:38head. I'm still asking questions. It's
3:52:41been 42 years and I'm still wanting to
3:52:43know the truth. I still want to know
3:52:45what happened. It's just not there. It's
3:52:47nobody wants to give it up. And so then
3:52:50what was the next one? Uh
3:52:52so that was the the ski masks.
3:52:55Uh
3:52:56I don't remember the the next one that
3:52:57you said. I I
3:52:58>> Uh that you knew who that you knew who
3:53:00the assailant was and that the shooting
3:53:03happened outside
3:53:03>> yeah yeah yeah. That was that was that
3:53:05was at the end of because what they said
3:53:07was during it was during that one
3:53:09particular meeting when I I said, well,
3:53:11I had dreams and it it was two guys in a
3:53:13ski mask. And I said they said, well, it
3:53:15would take two guys to overpower you. I
3:53:17mean, you are such a big powerful woman.
3:53:20I'm like, no, I'm not. He goes, but
3:53:21didn't you used to fight with Steve
3:53:22Downs all the time? I mean, you could
3:53:24take him on. So surely it would take two
3:53:26men. And I'm like
3:53:28you would listen to the tape recording.
3:53:30I mean, I'm serious. I'm not just
3:53:32ad-libbing here. I'm telling you what
3:53:34they said. And I said, no, I'm not. And
3:53:36then
3:53:38um they said, well, you know what we
3:53:39found out is that
3:53:41uh they were talking about Steve and how
3:53:43Steve had they said, we found out that
3:53:45Steve burned his uh stole his own car
3:53:48for insurance money. We found out that
3:53:50Steve burned his friend's house for
3:53:52insurance money. Uh Steve admitted to
3:53:54setting your house on fire. And I'm
3:53:55like, oh my god. And so that's when I
3:53:57jumped up and I said, oh my god, I know
3:53:58who did this. I know who did this.
3:54:01I thought it was Steve. I thought they
3:54:02were telling me it was Steve.
3:54:06That doesn't mean I changed my story.
3:54:08That was a progression of an
3:54:09investigation in which they were leading
3:54:11me to a point.
3:54:14I don't know what the point was, but I
3:54:15actually believed that my ex-husband was
3:54:18behind this at that time. And I went
3:54:20back and I thought about it and I said,
3:54:22he was in Arizona. He did not do this.
3:54:25He did not do this.
3:54:26So. Okay. So it's clearer to you now 42
3:54:30years later what happened than it was at
3:54:32the time.
3:54:35I know what happened. That's always been
3:54:37there to me. I know exactly what
3:54:39happened. That's never been a question.
3:54:41I don't know why it happened.
3:54:43I don't know who was behind it. I don't
3:54:44know who did it.
3:54:46But I know what happened.
3:54:49I told the police that night what
3:54:50happened.
3:54:52My children and I stopped for a stranger
3:54:54on the road. He shot us for no reason
3:54:57other than my sassy mouth. He wanted the
3:54:59car and I said, you got to be kidding.
3:55:02And he shot my kids. He backed out.
3:55:06I pretended throwing the car keys cuz he
3:55:07said he wanted the car. We struggled.
3:55:10Apparently I was shot. I didn't know it
3:55:12at the time. And
3:55:15I went to the hospital and that was it.
3:55:17I that has never changed. That has never
3:55:20ever ever ever changed.
3:55:23Okay. Um thank you, Ms. Downs. I don't
3:55:25have any more questions. Mr. Reese.
3:55:27You're welcome.
3:55:28Thank you.
3:55:29I I just have two questions.
3:55:31Um
3:55:36When Chair Bailey asked you about the
3:55:38most recent psychological evaluation
3:55:40with Dr. Milkey,
3:55:43you said you disagreed with his
3:55:45diagnosis of narcissistic personality
3:55:48disorder.
3:55:49Why?
3:55:50>> Yes.
3:55:54First of all, I think all of us are
3:55:55narcissistic to an extent, the whole
3:55:57world.
3:55:59But narcissism is somebody who doesn't
3:56:02care about anybody else. Everything that
3:56:04they do has a means to an end, which is
3:56:07to gratify some spoken or unspoken need
3:56:11for themselves.
3:56:14I am not that kind of person.
3:56:18Uh when people come and say, Diane, I
3:56:21have to run out on a ducket really
3:56:22quick. Can you help me? I need to do
3:56:24something. Sure. Can you push my
3:56:26wheelchair? Absolutely. Can you uh go
3:56:29pick something up from the program
3:56:31office for me? Get some paperwork for me
3:56:33so that I can get finished this typing.
3:56:36Absolutely.
3:56:38Those those are things that I do just
3:56:40spontaneously without a thought.
3:56:43There's no narcissism involved in that.
3:56:46He said narcissistic people lack
3:56:48empathy.
3:56:49I empathize. I listen to people all day
3:56:51long. As a porter on on my job, people
3:56:54come out all day long and say
3:56:57the things that happened to them during
3:56:59the day.
3:57:00I listen to them.
3:57:01I rarely give advice.
3:57:03If they ask for it, I give them the best
3:57:06advice that I can, which is think about
3:57:08what has happened.
3:57:10Don't just jump to conclusions.
3:57:12Just because somebody else is saying
3:57:13something ugly doesn't mean that maybe
3:57:15they're going through something. Those
3:57:17are the things.
3:57:18Uh he says that I don't have remorse. I
3:57:21have remorse.
3:57:23I I I live with remorse. That is the
3:57:25only thing I got shingles from remorse.
3:57:29You don't ever want to get shingles.
3:57:31It's nasty stuff.
3:57:32Um he says that I uh
3:57:35uh lack uh insight.
3:57:37Um but everything that is pigeonholed in
3:57:41is she lacks remorse because she won't
3:57:43confess. She lacks empathy because she
3:57:45won't confess. She lacks insight because
3:57:48she won't confess.
3:57:50But I didn't do it.
3:57:52So if he pins everything on the fact
3:57:55that I won't confess. He if he if he
3:57:57pins narcissism, which he does
3:57:59in this report. If he
3:58:03roots everything, all of narcissism
3:58:05based in the fact that I won't confess,
3:58:09then
3:58:10the fact that I'm factually innocent
3:58:11means there's no narcissism.
3:58:13He doesn't have any other reason to call
3:58:15me narcissistic. There's nothing in my
3:58:18my trial transcript that shows
3:58:19narcissism. There's nothing in my
3:58:21childhood that shows narcissism. I cared
3:58:24for my siblings when they were coming up
3:58:26the same way the same way my mom cared
3:58:28for her siblings when they were coming
3:58:29up because I learned from my mom.
3:58:32I
3:58:33uh
3:58:34go to church. We give to charities. I
3:58:36crochet blankets for for children and
3:58:39and veterans hospitals. I don't have to
3:58:41do that. There's a lot of people who
3:58:42don't because nobody ever knows. You
3:58:45wouldn't have known if you hadn't asked.
3:58:47So, it's not something I do and I I
3:58:50crocheted 500 blankets. They call me the
3:58:52machine.
3:58:54So, and it's it's I could have crocheted
3:58:56one blanket, got a pronoun, that would
3:58:57have been in my e-file, but I crocheted
3:58:59500 blankets.
3:59:01And I I do it simply because it's the
3:59:03right thing to do because I care about
3:59:06veterans of foreign wars. I care about
3:59:09children whose homes are burned down or
3:59:11there's a tornado. So, that's not
3:59:13narcissism. Those are not narcissistic
3:59:15traits.
3:59:16I he he labeled them. Finally, somebody
3:59:19for the first time ever labeled gave me
3:59:21a list cuz I told him, "I don't even
3:59:23know what narcissism means." He labeled
3:59:25in his report what it takes to be
3:59:28narcissistic and why he felt that it
3:59:30was.
3:59:31I don't fit any of those categories and
3:59:33that's the reason I take exception with
3:59:35that. That's the I I take exception with
3:59:37that one because of that.
3:59:39So, two of the factors that he noted in
3:59:42his diagnosis are
3:59:46a pervasive pattern of grandiosity and a
3:59:49need for admiration.
3:59:52Right.
3:59:52>> Does that Do you see that in yourself?
3:59:56I do not.
3:59:57I do not. I I think
4:00:00I don't know. I would have to ask him
4:00:02why he said that. I probably because
4:00:06there was a movie and a book, but I
4:00:07didn't do those. I did everything I
4:00:09could to avoid a book the movie and a
4:00:11book. I did not talk to the author
4:00:13of the book because I didn't want a
4:00:15book. I didn't talk to the to the script
4:00:17writer of the movie cuz and I didn't
4:00:19sign a release. So, I don't know why
4:00:21they think that I want to be
4:00:23uh in the front front pages. I did allow
4:00:26the media to talk to me when I was young
4:00:28right after I got arrested. I did talk
4:00:30to the media,
4:00:32but it was because
4:00:33I couldn't see my children. It was the
4:00:35only way that I could tell them I love
4:00:37them. That I I wanted them to know that
4:00:40that I didn't just walk away from them.
4:00:43I wanted them to know, "I love you. I
4:00:44miss you. I want you to be okay." But
4:00:46none of that ever hit the TV screen and
4:00:48so I stopped talking to them. But I
4:00:50didn't talk to the media because I
4:00:51wanted to be on TV.
4:00:53I
4:00:55You should look. My hair was always a
4:00:57mess. I certainly wasn't doing it to be
4:00:59glammed up. There were no false
4:01:00eyelashes. There was no high heels. It
4:01:03it wasn't like that. It I just wanted to
4:01:06get a message to my kids that your mommy
4:01:08still loves you.
4:01:10And that never hit the TV and so I
4:01:12stopped talking to them.
4:01:14So, uh grandiosity um
4:01:18I think the one of the reasons is Miss
4:01:21Hugh, the vice chair. I'm bad with last
4:01:24names. I'm sorry. It's why I use first
4:01:25names all the time. Uh the vice chair
4:01:28um
4:01:29uh said that uh this all sounds really
4:01:33crazy. Everybody hates you.
4:01:36Well,
4:01:37that's his perception and and your
4:01:39perception,
4:01:40but it's actually true and I don't know
4:01:42why. But just because I'm aware of it
4:01:44doesn't make me grandiose. It makes me
4:01:46alert.
4:01:47It makes me aware that that I have an
4:01:50enemy. I just don't know who it is. It
4:01:53It doesn't mean that, "Oh, I'm so
4:01:55important that somebody hates me." I'm
4:01:58not. I'm nobody. I was a mailman. That's
4:02:02all I was and a mom
4:02:03and a sister and a daughter.
4:02:06I I wasn't important. So,
4:02:10yeah.
4:02:12Okay, what last question for you.
4:02:15You wrote a letter
4:02:17uh
4:02:18to the Eugene office of the FBI.
4:02:22Yep. Uh May 28th, 2020 and you wrote in
4:02:26that letter,
4:02:29"In 2010, the Oregon director of
4:02:31corrections wrote a letter to me. He
4:02:34said he'd received instructions from an
4:02:36external agency directing the outcome of
4:02:39my 2010 parole hearing."
4:02:42Yes. Okay.
4:02:45Do you still believe that?
4:02:48He did. Yeah, okay.
4:02:50>> have a letter. And I ask because
4:02:52throughout today's hearing you've you've
4:02:54said the things you've said were not
4:02:58allegations, they were questions. But so
4:03:00you would agree that this is an
4:03:01allegation.
4:03:04Well, it's not an allegation. I sent him
4:03:06a I sent him the letter.
4:03:07So, I sent him the letter. I said the
4:03:09director of corrections sent a letter to
4:03:11me saying that your upcoming parole
4:03:13board
4:03:14um will be handled by somebody else and
4:03:17we are receiving instructions on how to
4:03:19handle it.
4:03:20And
4:03:21by who? You don't tell the director of
4:03:23corrections what to do and it wasn't
4:03:25from you guys. It somebody outside of
4:03:28him was directing his his
4:03:33conduct. He says, "We are being
4:03:35instructed on how to conduct your parole
4:03:37board hearing." And I didn't understand
4:03:39what that meant.
4:03:41And I wanted to understand who who more
4:03:44important than Oregon could do this.
4:03:46So, yes. Every citizen of America has a
4:03:49right to ask the FBI to investigate
4:03:51something. That doesn't mean they're
4:03:52going to do it,
4:03:54but
4:03:55I have a right to my legal counsel and I
4:03:59didn't have an attorney. I didn't have
4:04:01anybody that could find out who is
4:04:03controlling who is who is
4:04:06causing the director of corrections,
4:04:09Oregon director of corrections, to write
4:04:11a letter to me. First of all, why would
4:04:12you even tell me that?
4:04:14Why Why would he even tell me that? Why
4:04:17Why not just do it? Why are you telling
4:04:19me that somebody, unless you want me to
4:04:21ask questions that of course everybody
4:04:24on the planet who watches this thing on
4:04:26TV,
4:04:27knows that
4:04:29I will bite. If you toss me a morsel and
4:04:32it hints of an answer to this
4:04:37crazy
4:04:39crap,
4:04:40I'm going to I'm going to follow the
4:04:42lead. I want to know why.
4:04:45Why did somebody do this?
4:04:47I
4:04:48I and so if somebody is giving the
4:04:51director of corrections instructions on
4:04:54what to do with me, there's only one
4:04:56more person more important than the than
4:04:58more powerful than director of
4:04:59corrections. That's the governor.
4:05:01And on top of the governor, there's only
4:05:03the president. So, I want an
4:05:06investigative agency to find out who.
4:05:09Cuz I don't know. It was a question, but
4:05:11the letter was real. So, where where's
4:05:13the letter?
4:05:14>> The FBI has it. Huh? Where's the letter?
4:05:18>> I think
4:05:20I'm not going to tell you where it is
4:05:21first of all because I don't want
4:05:22somebody to go and take it. I have
4:05:24learned not to trust. It is in a safe
4:05:26place,
4:05:27but I know the FBI has a copy cuz I sent
4:05:30them a copy.
4:05:31So, yes.
4:05:33Um everything that I have that I don't
4:05:35want to be stolen is in a safe place.
4:05:39All right. Uh thank you very much.
4:05:41You're welcome.
4:05:43Um I don't have any remaining questions.
4:05:44Thank you. Okay. So, we've got one last
4:05:46topic, Ms. Downs,
4:05:48um and that's parole plan. So, I
4:05:51reviewed what you submitted. I saw your
4:05:53goals. You listed out your goals for
4:05:55parole, the things you wanted to
4:05:57achieve. I know that originally you'd
4:05:59wanted to go into the veterans housing,
4:06:00but then that kind of fell through. So,
4:06:02I'm just curious, do you have any
4:06:04updates for us on what your parole plan
4:06:06would be, especially your housing plan?
4:06:09My housing plans um my brother sent you
4:06:11a letter.
4:06:12I have I actually have three options. My
4:06:15sister was really upset at me that I did
4:06:17not tell her that she could write a
4:06:19letter and offer cuz she wanted to bring
4:06:20me home, too. So, I have three housing
4:06:22options. I don't have money in the bank
4:06:25right now because I live on 16 cents an
4:06:28hour and an allowance from my mom.
4:06:30Um but each of them owns their own
4:06:33houses. My brother's house is it's like
4:06:36a duplex. It's two houses conjoined by a
4:06:39great room. He wants me to come and stay
4:06:42there because he wants to be able to
4:06:44show me what the world is like. It's
4:06:45different. Phones are different. Banking
4:06:47is different. Getting a driver's license
4:06:49is different. He has a truck that he has
4:06:52graciously uh offered to let me use as
4:06:54long as I need.
4:06:56Um
4:06:57so
4:06:59James wants me to come there. My mom
4:07:01wants me to come there because since Dad
4:07:04passed, she's very lonely. We talk three
4:07:06times a week and every time I call, she
4:07:08goes, "I don't see you at my front door
4:07:10yet. I don't see you at my front door
4:07:11yet." So, Mom really wants me to go
4:07:13there.
4:07:14Um and then my sister, Kate, she
4:07:18she also she goes, "How come everybody
4:07:20got invited to write a letter? I wanted
4:07:22to write one." So, Kate would like to
4:07:24bring me home, too, she and her wife.
4:07:26So, yes.
4:07:28Um so, that's immediate housing. That's
4:07:31immediate housing. I am still spry. I'm
4:07:3470 years old, but I still work full-time
4:07:38and double-time because I work for the
4:07:40union. I volunteer for the union the
4:07:42rest of the time. I can get a job at
4:07:44Walmart as a greeter if that's what it
4:07:46takes. I can work at Jack in the Box for
4:07:48minimum wage, which by the way is crazy
4:07:51now.
4:07:52So, I
4:07:54there's any number of clerical jobs that
4:07:56I can do.
4:07:58I can get a job for an attorney. I have
4:08:00been studying the law for a long time. I
4:08:03could I could get a job with in just
4:08:05about any attorney in the neighborhood
4:08:07as a paralegal and do that online. I
4:08:08don't even have to go out and dig a
4:08:10ditch.
4:08:11So, there's any number of jobs that I am
4:08:13capable
4:08:15and once
4:08:16I'm out, I am certainly motivated. I'm a
4:08:20fire sign. I have energy. I I can't just
4:08:23sit there and watch TV. I don't even do
4:08:25that in prison.
4:08:26I have to be physical and able-bodied
4:08:29and doing things.
4:08:30So,
4:08:32I have housing. I have uh
4:08:35uh job skills that I I
4:08:38I can work as a clerk. I can work as a
4:08:42Walmart greeter. I can do just about
4:08:43anything. Just about anything.
4:08:46Okay, thank you very much.
4:08:49You know, Ms. Downs, I've asked you a
4:08:50lot of questions today and I think that
4:08:52covers all the questions that I had for
4:08:54you. So, thank you. I'm going to turn it
4:08:56over to Ms. Cleaver. Any remaining
4:08:57questions?
4:08:58No, I your what you submitted regarding
4:09:01your parole plan parole plan and the
4:09:03questions you've already responded to. I
4:09:05don't have any in addition. Thank you.
4:09:07Thank you.
4:09:08All right, and Ms. Brooks. I also don't
4:09:10have any questions on this topic. Mr.
4:09:12Reese.
4:09:14Well, at the beginning of this hearing
4:09:17when we were talking about finances and
4:09:21um Yeah. there was the question about
4:09:24SSI benefits and
4:09:26you said
4:09:28you didn't really know whether
4:09:30you'd receive a lump sum of over
4:09:32$100,000.
4:09:35But previously you you had you seemed at
4:09:37least on paper to be pretty certain
4:09:41that would happen. I mean, you wrote
4:09:44that it would happen and that would
4:09:45support you. So,
4:09:48now it seems you're thinking maybe
4:09:50that's not going to happen. Does how
4:09:52does that shape your parole plan if any?
4:09:57I do know
4:10:01I do know for a fact what Nathan told
4:10:03me.
4:10:04I trusted what Nathan said.
4:10:06So, that would be
4:10:08compensation for the time I've spent in
4:10:10prison.
4:10:11I don't know if that's real or not. What
4:10:13I do know for a fact is real for SSI is
4:10:16that because of the girls that have
4:10:18paroled and they leave here
4:10:22when they leave here and they are
4:10:24elderly
4:10:25there is compensation
4:10:28future coming.
4:10:30If I accept that compensation, which is
4:10:32about seven they said 1,700 No, it's
4:10:34minimum wage. So, $1,750 a month and now
4:10:37it's more because minimum wage has gone
4:10:39up.
4:10:40Once I get a job, I get to pay that
4:10:43back.
4:10:44So, it's not it it's they're investing
4:10:47in me unless of course I'm too
4:10:49disabled that I cannot. It's SSDI.
4:10:53And Social Security's reasoning is
4:10:56because of my age and because of the
4:10:59amount of years that I've spent in
4:11:00prison, I am clinically
4:11:04considered disabled because I have not
4:11:07been permitted to think for myself.
4:11:10Which I disagree with. Yes, we are told
4:11:14when to go to bed, when to get up, when
4:11:16to eat, where to eat, walk the yellow
4:11:18line.
4:11:19But that still doesn't take our brains
4:11:21away. I still use my brain all the time.
4:11:23But
4:11:24clinically
4:11:25we are considered disabled. So, we are
4:11:28permitted to apply for and receive um
4:11:32social security disability
4:11:35income.
4:11:36And that is a guarantee. That I know for
4:11:38a fact is is because of the girls that
4:11:41have paroled and come back and told me
4:11:43about it.
4:11:45So, and I don't want to do that. That's
4:11:48why I didn't bring it up this time. I
4:11:50don't want to do that.
4:11:52But you want me to put something in
4:11:54writing the parole board not you. The
4:11:56parole board wants me to put something
4:11:58in writing that is
4:12:00uh
4:12:02certain.
4:12:03And when Nathan told me that, I believed
4:12:06it was certain. And so, I put it in
4:12:08there because you don't want me to go
4:12:09out and be destitute. I'm not going to
4:12:11go out and live in my brother's house
4:12:14for the rest of my life even though he
4:12:15wishes I would.
4:12:17I need to become an independent person
4:12:20again after I learn how to function in
4:12:21the world. And so, I intend to get a
4:12:23job.
4:12:24And so, but you but the parole board
4:12:27wants something that's certain. And
4:12:29social security is certain because of my
4:12:31age. That's and that's the only reason.
4:12:34I can't Nathan gave me an amount. Nathan
4:12:37may have been lying. Nathan may not have
4:12:39been lying. I don't know. I won't know
4:12:41until the parole agent comes and gives
4:12:42me the application and explains it.
4:12:45I don't know how Nathan just imagined
4:12:47this. It was the parole agent that told
4:12:49him that.
4:12:50So, I I
4:12:52don't know.
4:12:54But I know for a fact from proven
4:12:56experience that there is supplement
4:12:59there is social security disability
4:13:01income
4:13:02in the future. I would receive a check
4:13:05every month for that. And as soon as I
4:13:08get a job, I pay it back. I get to pay
4:13:10it back.
4:13:13All right, thank you. Ms. Kaplinsky, any
4:13:15remaining questions? Uh
4:13:17Ms. Downs, just a couple clarifying
4:13:19points at your brother James's house, is
4:13:22it just him and Mary that live at the
4:13:24home?
4:13:25Yes. Okay. Yes.
4:13:27>> Would you have your your own room there?
4:13:30Yes. Uh their house is built like a
4:13:32horseshoe
4:13:34and there's a separate living
4:13:37on each side and then there's a great
4:13:39room in the middle. So, I would have a
4:13:40two-bedroom basically a two-bedroom
4:13:42apartment on my side. He and Mary would
4:13:45have a two-bedroom apartment on their
4:13:46side and then we have the kitchen and
4:13:48great room in between. Okay. And it's
4:13:51off the beaten path. It's in the
4:13:52country. There's nobody there. It's it's
4:13:55Yeah, it's on the edge it's on a cliff.
4:13:57It's on the edge of a mountain.
4:13:59And are there any kind of weapons or
4:14:01anything in the home?
4:14:03No.
4:14:04No way. No way. Um and are there any um
4:14:08minor age children that visit the home?
4:14:12No.
4:14:13And there's no grandchildren or
4:14:14anything? It's it's an elderly
4:14:16community. There's none in the
4:14:18neighborhood either.
4:14:20Um
4:14:21no no come visit like uh grandchildren
4:14:23or anything that like that.
4:14:26If they do, James does James and Mary
4:14:28never had children. James and Mary are
4:14:31without child. And but my sister has
4:14:35grown kids. They're like in their 50s.
4:14:38And they have children. But James So,
4:14:42Cathy Kate has No, John. John has kids
4:14:47that James and Mary
4:14:49sometimes entertain. And I have no
4:14:52problem. I know where you're going with
4:14:53this. I have no problem going
4:14:57somewhere else. Renting a motel if I
4:14:59need to.
4:15:00Going to uh
4:15:02Howard Johnson's
4:15:04until until they have their what if
4:15:06they're having dinner or whatever.
4:15:09Okay. I've talked to James about this.
4:15:11I've talked to James about this. He
4:15:12understands and he said, "That's not a
4:15:14problem." They come around like at
4:15:16Christmas time every other year.
4:15:19So,
4:15:20yeah. Because I'm assuming you talked to
4:15:22him about this cuz you understood that
4:15:24you would likely or that you would have
4:15:27a condition not to have contact with
4:15:29minors.
4:15:30Yes. My my friends have told me here
4:15:33that this is one of the stipulations
4:15:35they're going to have and I said,
4:15:37"I believe it. I believe it." So, I told
4:15:40James about it and he and Mary both
4:15:42understand.
4:15:43And I don't have a problem.
4:15:46Like I said, I'll go rent a motel for
4:15:48for a week if I have to. I'll still be
4:15:49in the neighborhood. My parole officer
4:15:51will still be there. I'll still have
4:15:53contact with him or her.
4:15:56Okay. And then the the last question
4:15:58this is something Dr. Guyton suggested
4:16:01last time she when she met with you in
4:16:032020. She wanted you to include in your
4:16:06release plan
4:16:08she wanted you to clearly identify how
4:16:10you will manage requests for your time
4:16:13and information from media and how you
4:16:15will deal with the stress of the media
4:16:17spotlight while living in the community.
4:16:20So, that was something specific that she
4:16:22asked you to include in your release
4:16:25plan. I did not see it addressed in your
4:16:27submission.
4:16:29I'm sorry. I forgot that. That was from
4:16:31that was from 5 years ago and I forgot
4:16:33it was in there. I didn't review her her
4:16:35parole her
4:16:36thing and it and Mr. Milton Dr. Milton
4:16:39didn't put it in his and so, I I didn't
4:16:41even sit think to send you. I will
4:16:43prepare something, but I can tell you on
4:16:44the record right now and Fox is
4:16:46listening. I have absolutely no desire
4:16:49or willingness to talk to the media. I
4:16:52have
4:16:54nothing for the media. And where James
4:16:56lives, I don't think they can even find
4:16:57him. And I would hope that you would
4:16:59redact his address
4:17:01and phone number so that they could not
4:17:03easily find me.
4:17:04Um yeah, there where James lives
4:17:08trust me. You would have a tough time
4:17:10finding him.
4:17:11So, yeah. It's I don't I'm not worried
4:17:14about the media. I am not I have no
4:17:16interest in them at all.
4:17:18None.
4:17:20Okay. Thank you.
4:17:22All right, thank you. So, Ms. Downs, we
4:17:25You know, this has been a pretty lengthy
4:17:26hearing. But we are getting really close
4:17:29to the end. And so, I just I feel like
4:17:31we can just push through cuz I think we
4:17:32only got about 10 or 15 minutes left.
4:17:34So, I just want to Ms. Mayhew, is that
4:17:37fit your timeline for what you think you
4:17:39have to say?
4:17:41Yeah, I'm I'm going to be as brief as
4:17:42possible. And I'm wondering just one
4:17:45other thing is that um
4:17:47um Ms. Downs' brother who's here, he is
4:17:49happy to make a brief statement just um
4:17:52confirming the support that he will
4:17:54provide for her both financially and in
4:17:56a home um upon her release if you think
4:17:58that would be helpful right now if
4:17:59you're happy with what he's written that
4:18:01he has every intention of ensuring her
4:18:04that she's going to be safe, well cared
4:18:06for, and financially stable. Okay, well
4:18:08thank you.
4:18:08>> Would you
4:18:09Yeah.
4:18:09>> Yeah, he can he can just talk if you
4:18:11want to get that on the record from him.
4:18:13That's great, thank you. So Mr. Mr.
4:18:15Frederickson, um if you're on the line,
4:18:17I just want to let you know that you do
4:18:19have the right under the board rules as
4:18:21a support person for
4:18:23um Ms. Downs to provide a statement to
4:18:25the board totaling no longer than 15
4:18:27minutes. So it's totally up to you if
4:18:29you want to say anything to us, it's
4:18:31really up to you. And so I'll just
4:18:33give you the floor and you can say what
4:18:34you want and then we'll
4:18:36we'll move on to the next speaker.
4:18:40And I thank you for the time.
4:18:42Um thank you for the hearing today. Um I
4:18:45just want to let you know that um Diane
4:18:48um
4:18:49she will have a
4:18:51I'll make sure that society
4:18:53she'll have a place to live for the rest
4:18:55of her life if she desires or until it
4:18:57gets to the point that we can
4:19:00know that she's able to
4:19:03successfully move back into society. I'm
4:19:06not sure if I'm not really comfortable
4:19:08with words necessarily.
4:19:10Um
4:19:11but I will make sure that she has 100%
4:19:14success. Um
4:19:16it is a U-shaped home and there is a
4:19:18suite on the other side that is
4:19:20completely vacant and open. Um I don't
4:19:23have any kids
4:19:25and you know, they come visit once a
4:19:28year and
4:19:29I go visit them once a year. So um
4:19:32there's
4:19:33no guns in my house. Um
4:19:35I mean, what else is covered? Um that's
4:19:38all I think I have. Um
4:19:40I want her to be successful in the real
4:19:42world um just as you would want her to
4:19:45be and I believe that it's um
4:19:49Thank you. Thank you and thank you so
4:19:51much, sir, for being here um for your
4:19:54letter that we can we did review and
4:19:56read and also for your update here today
4:19:59at the hearing. It's appreciated. Thank
4:20:00you, sir.
4:20:03You're welcome. Thank you. I next want
4:20:05to check back in briefly with Lane
4:20:07County Deputy District Attorney Joanne
4:20:09Miller. Um
4:20:10Ms. Miller, I let you know that I would
4:20:12check back in with you um just to see is
4:20:15there anything else that you want to
4:20:16tell the board? Um
4:20:19again, as you know, we have read your
4:20:20five-page letter that your office
4:20:22submitted. Anything else you want to add
4:20:24to the board today?
4:20:26No, we believe that letter covers uh
4:20:28sufficiently all the categories
4:20:30uh
4:20:32talked about today and
4:20:34still believe that
4:20:37Ms. Downs is suffering from addiction
4:20:39which made her dangerous in instances to
4:20:42specific personnel.
4:20:44Thank you.
4:20:45All right, thank you very much, Ms.
4:20:47Miller, for being here um and again for
4:20:50the statement on behalf of the Lane
4:20:52County Deputy District Attorney's
4:20:53office. So Ms. Mayhew, that means that
4:20:56you and Ms. Downs now have the floor um
4:20:58to have the closing word at today's
4:20:59hearing. So I'll turn turn it over to
4:21:01you for any closing statement either you
4:21:03want to do or with your client, however
4:21:05you want to work it.
4:21:07Okay, uh Diane, if you're okay, I'll
4:21:09take this one. Is that okay with you?
4:21:10>> Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've I've
4:21:12said enough.
4:21:14Absolutely.
4:21:15Okay, uh so I'm going to be really
4:21:17brief, Mr. Bailey, and I'd like to first
4:21:18thank you uh for giving us the
4:21:20opportunity to present some additional
4:21:22evidence and we're going to try and keep
4:21:23it very much focused on
4:21:25um not trying to prove her innocence cuz
4:21:27that's not the process here, but just to
4:21:29give some support for the fact that what
4:21:31Diane is saying is supported in certain
4:21:33instances and and that she's not being
4:21:35grandiose or making it up or anything
4:21:37like that.
4:21:38Um
4:21:40Doing a parole hearing for someone who
4:21:42claims innocence is always much more
4:21:43complicated than a regular hearing where
4:21:46we we can really address things like
4:21:47insight so much easier. Um and in this
4:21:50case it's particularly difficult. Um I
4:21:53think one of the questions that uh was
4:21:55asked is like why you, why is this came
4:21:57up case so famous? You know, why is this
4:22:00case so famous? That is a really really
4:22:02good question that I don't think anyone
4:22:04really has the answer to. I was looking
4:22:05on the internet the other day and this
4:22:07case was described in a recent 2020
4:22:09article by ABC News as having been a
4:22:12national spectacle and the nation was
4:22:14gripped to this case from the very
4:22:15beginning. And so I think that Diane in
4:22:17some ways has had to deal with this just
4:22:20outsized attention that really, you
4:22:21know, doesn't make any sense
4:22:23particularly. I mean, every every murder
4:22:26or especially every every crime is
4:22:28horrific, every murder is terrible, and
4:22:30anytime children are involved, it's
4:22:31always particularly awful and tragic.
4:22:33And you know, of course, when a mother
4:22:35is accused, that becomes a more
4:22:37scandalous um kind of a situation that
4:22:40people are far more judgmental of than
4:22:43when it's a a man involved. I'm not I'm
4:22:44not just making that up because I'm a
4:22:46woman or because
4:22:47uh Diane Downs is a woman, it's just
4:22:49kind of a sort of fact. Um and it's also
4:22:51a a much rarer situation. And over the
4:22:53years
4:22:55um Diane has been accused of enjoying
4:22:58the attention and being grandiose when
4:23:00she acknowledges it or recognizes it,
4:23:02but it is a fact. And so when she's
4:23:04told, "I'm Oregon made me famous," she's
4:23:07not saying that because she thinks
4:23:08highly of herself, she's saying that as
4:23:10an unfortunate recognition of the truth
4:23:12and the world that she's had to live in
4:23:14in the last 42 years. Additional
4:23:16problems that Diane has faced is that
4:23:18she is not a demure, docile woman. She
4:23:22is a fighter. She has fought for herself
4:23:26at every point. She refuses to accept
4:23:28the status quo. She said from the very
4:23:30beginning that she's innocent and I hope
4:23:32that the DNA motion that we're able to
4:23:35submit next week will go some way
4:23:37towards helping her discover the whole
4:23:39truth of this case
4:23:41um and and everyone else as well. Um
4:23:44but it's been extraordinarily difficult
4:23:46for her and I think that she's been
4:23:48maligned greatly and at times I will say
4:23:50that Diane massively hurts herself
4:23:52because she is too outspoken, because
4:23:54she is too argumentative, because she
4:23:56will entertain any idea put into her
4:23:58head as a possibility, because she talks
4:24:01too much. I think that's true. And so I
4:24:03would ask you today to just consider
4:24:06that maybe Diane has some personality
4:24:08traits that don't look that don't make
4:24:11her look favorable to the board in the
4:24:13way that she behaves or the way that she
4:24:15presents to the world, but that doesn't
4:24:16mean it's evidence of her guilt. Um
4:24:19there's not much evidence I think that
4:24:21stands up as her actual culpability. In
4:24:24fact, I don't think there's anything
4:24:25really tangible other than the sense
4:24:27that everyone had that Diane must be
4:24:29guilty. And you know, we address this in
4:24:31our motion which I'm going to give to
4:24:33you, although of course not all of it is
4:24:34pertinent to what you're looking at. Um
4:24:36what I would ask you to do today is just
4:24:39go and take a a a careful look at Megan
4:24:43McNeely's evaluation. Um she went right
4:24:47through the history of the evaluations
4:24:48that Diane has received and shows kind
4:24:50of how this false narrative has been
4:24:52created about her. Also, it documents an
4:24:54enormous amount of her work in prison.
4:24:57It shows a prosocial person. Diane could
4:25:00not be receiving the letters of support
4:25:02that she's received and the
4:25:03commendations that she receives within
4:25:05her community if she was not a kind and
4:25:09prosocial member of her community. And
4:25:11she is. I've known Diane for over two
4:25:14years now and she's always kind, she's
4:25:16always thoughtful. She is the least
4:25:19self-pitying female client I've ever
4:25:22had. In fact, I don't think she's ever
4:25:23been self-pitying. She is an optimistic
4:25:26person who's trying really hard and
4:25:29that's used against her so much. And so
4:25:32yes, not all of her answers are ideal
4:25:34and yes, there's a huge record that
4:25:37often gets used against Diane, but
4:25:39Diane's time in prison for the last few
4:25:41decades has been exemplary. She is
4:25:44clearly liked in the prison. When I go
4:25:46there, all the COs like, "Can you get
4:25:48her out? How's she doing? We really like
4:25:49her. We want her to go home." This is
4:25:51not This is This is real. And so
4:25:55I'm just asking you to look at her
4:25:56record. Look and just consider the fact
4:25:59that some of her diagnoses may not be
4:26:01fair
4:26:02in the past and that Dr. Megan McNeely
4:26:04who spent the most time with her and dug
4:26:06the deepest into her past gives her no
4:26:08narcissistic diagnosis at all. And I
4:26:11would also note that Dr. Milkey's
4:26:12diagnosis is is not the same as Dr.
4:26:15Guiton's and that they are coming from a
4:26:17place of assuming guilt which is
4:26:19obviously their job, but it does
4:26:21massively hinder her when she's being
4:26:24told that she's not take that part of
4:26:26the diagnosis is that she's not taking
4:26:27responsibility for something that she's
4:26:29claimed innocence of for 42 years with
4:26:31the whole world against her. It's hard.
4:26:34I know how hard it's been. And so I'm
4:26:36not going to say anything more. I'm just
4:26:38going to ask you to look at the record
4:26:39carefully and consider that Diane Downs
4:26:42has been in prison for 42 years now and
4:26:45she hasn't really done anything wrong in
4:26:47the last 20 years. And yes, she was
4:26:49young and she tried to escape and she
4:26:51wasn't ideal at the beginning because
4:26:53she was angry, because she was angry
4:26:55about what happened. She was
4:26:57heartbroken. She She didn't know how to
4:26:59fight for herself properly. Um so thank
4:27:01you very much. I'm not going to go on
4:27:02any more. I appreciate all the time and
4:27:05effort everyone's put into this today.
4:27:06Thank you.
4:27:08All right, thank you very much, Ms.
4:27:09Mayhew. Um
4:27:11so it is it's 1:40 and I think I had
4:27:13said by the end of the day to get us
4:27:15something in writing.
4:27:16Because it's getting close to the end of
4:27:18the day, let's do this. Can you get us
4:27:21something in writing
4:27:23explaining exactly what you are going to
4:27:25submit to us by 9:00 a.m. tomorrow
4:27:27morning?
4:27:28Could I ask you to make it 2:00 p.m.
4:27:31because I have a call No, uh yes, as
4:27:33long as my client can call me by Can you
4:27:35call me today? Yeah. Okay, yeah. We'll
4:27:38do 9:00 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning.
4:27:40Okay, if you should I I we can do go
4:27:42till noon or two if you'd prefer. It's
4:27:44it's up to you.
4:27:47I would love it if it was noon. Okay.
4:27:48Then let's do let's do by noon tomorrow.
4:27:52And so essentially here So Ms. Mayhew,
4:27:54the other thing I would ask from from
4:27:56you and your client is when you submit
4:27:58the documents to us
4:28:00please make clear that that those are
4:28:02the total documents that are included in
4:28:04the letter you're sending us saying what
4:28:05you're sending us. Does that make sense?
4:28:07Cuz that that way we
4:28:08>> A list of what we're going to provide
4:28:09and then I'll provide it within two
4:28:10weeks.
4:28:12>> Yes, cuz that way that note cuz if we
4:28:14get it early, we can close the record,
4:28:16give us time to review the rec- the
4:28:17documents, and then we can move to
4:28:19deliberations. We obviously
4:28:21if the record stays open for two weeks,
4:28:23we're going to wait for the whole two
4:28:24weeks just in case anything else comes
4:28:26in. So it's good for us to know that
4:28:28what you submitted us is the final
4:28:29submission. So
4:28:32That makes sense.
4:28:32>> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much.
4:28:34Okay, thank you. And again, thank you to
4:28:37all of our participants for being here
4:28:38today.
4:28:39Um and with that, the hearing is
4:28:42concluded and the record will be left
4:28:45open for two weeks prior to date if not
4:28:48closed sooner because we get the
4:28:49documents that we're expecting from Ms.
4:28:50Mayhew and Ms. Mayhew will get us a list
4:28:52of documents
4:28:54um they are submitting by noon tomorrow.
4:28:56So with that, again, the
4:28:58hearing is concluded. Thank you again to
4:29:00everybody.
4:29:01Thank you.
4:29:03Thank you.
4:29:03>> Thanks.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of FULL HEARING: Diane Downs Faces Oregon Parole Board a Fourth Time (10.29.25) by 𝐃𝐈𝐀𝐍𝐄 𝐃𝐎𝐖𝐍𝐒 𝐓𝐕, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 43,856 words across 7,161 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.