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Friday Night Live: Interview with Dr. Kathrine Ramsland on Dennis Rader The BTK Killer — Transcript

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0:01hey guys i'm fancy
0:03and this is murder by design and my
0:06partner colleen is not here tonight
0:07she's just a little under the weather so
0:09um it'll just be me but i do have a very
0:12special guest tonight so
0:14we are super super honored to have our
0:16guest
0:18what the heck is going on oh oh oh i'm
0:21hearing it in my
0:22i'm sorry guys i was hearing it because
0:23the youtube was open
0:26well we have a very very honored tonight
0:27to have our guest it's dr catherine
0:29ramsen
0:30she's written over 68 books in the realm
0:32of crime forensic science and
0:34supernatural
0:35as well as over 1 000 articles we're
0:38going to be talking about her book
0:39confessions of a serial killer
0:42about btk and she actually is the
0:45executive producer of
0:46murder house flip so we're going to talk
0:48about that a little later too because
0:49i'm super excited about that show
0:51so anyway catherine can you tell our
0:53viewers and our listeners a little bit
0:55about yourself and your background
0:57okay i teach forensic psychology
1:01at desales university where i am also
1:04the assistant provost and i also do an
1:07adjunct
1:09class right now and homicidal offenders
1:12at the john jay college of criminal
1:13justice
1:15so when i'm not doing that i'm writing
1:17and i write a lot i write all the time
1:19all right so that's how i got all these
1:21books
1:22and i'm also in a master of fine arts
1:25program as a student
1:27again on top of all of that because i'm
1:30wanting to improve my writing so the the
1:32most important thing i guess in my life
1:34is
1:35writing research i've become
1:38a serial killer expert or an expert
1:42extreme offenders because now it's also
1:44spree killers
1:45and mass murderers too so i do most of
1:48that and i also
1:50consult with coroners on death
1:53investigations
1:54in particular for uh suicides
1:58so i i do a lot of things and all of
2:00them are
2:01highly interesting yes they are have you
2:04ever worked with
2:04joseph scott morgan no i know him i
2:07haven't worked with him
2:09ah i was just thinking you know he's one
2:10of the or was one of the leading death
2:12investigators in the
2:13in the country so and he's one of our
2:15guests all the time we just love him to
2:17death
2:17but we always end up like two and a half
2:19hours when we talk to him we always say
2:21oh it's only going to be 30 minutes and
2:22then it's two and a half hours
2:24i tend to work with the people who are
2:26local to me because they could
2:28go over those cases right right so
2:31what led you to like forensic psychology
2:34and can you tell our viewers exactly
2:36what forensic psychology is okay
2:40well my path to it is circuitous
2:43for sure it's not something i aspired to
2:45do but forensic psychology
2:48is anywhere the legal and investigative
2:51system intersects with psychology
2:54anything
2:55from psychology clinical cognitive
2:57social psychology
2:59um all of that kind of stuff where it
3:01comes into the courts
3:02or it's important for investigations
3:07a forensic psychologist would cover
3:09those areas so they could be prisons
3:11it could be victims groups it could be
3:13expert witnesses
3:15examinations for competency and insanity
3:19consulting and death investigations
3:20which is what i primarily do
3:22training police officers in things like
3:25you know observation
3:26skills and cognitive quirks i do a lot
3:29of that i train
3:30i also train attorneys so really any
3:33any time you need some kind of expertise
3:35from the field of psychology
3:37in the legal or investigative system you
3:40have
3:40uh forensic psychology it overlaps with
3:43criminology but they are not the same
3:44thing
3:46oh wow so what is the difference between
3:48forensic psychology and criminology
3:50well criminology tends to be more about
3:53trends
3:53and what causes crime you know um
3:57whereas forensic psychology especially
4:00the clinical aspects tend to be more
4:01about cases
4:03and really looking at um the details of
4:07a person's developmental trajectory for
4:10example so
4:11you might look at a population base in
4:14criminology
4:15for you know the potential for
4:19for crime rates but you'll take a case
4:23like
4:23edmund kemper as you mentioned and look
4:25at you know how did he get to the point
4:28where he's
4:29at 15 murdering his grandparents and
4:31then
4:32goes on and and kills young women and
4:34then his mother
4:35so where did he how does he get there
4:37that's forensic psychology
4:39i see i see that's kind of like what we
4:41like to talk about here
4:42i'm obviously i'm not a forensic
4:43psychologist by any means but i do
4:46um i do think that i kind of look into a
4:48lot of the
4:49that kind of stuff um that's how we came
4:51about this channel specifically now our
4:54podcast is you know more general case
4:56stuff but here we like to try
4:58and look into like the minds of
5:01serial killers um what causes a person
5:04to do what they're doing
5:05you know what was in their background
5:06did they have anything in their
5:08background you know that's kind of what
5:09we like to look at here
5:10so um so were you into crime like as a
5:13teenager or as a kid
5:15or did it just kind of happen later in
5:16life for you well i wasn't into crime
5:19um but there was a serial killer
5:22operating
5:23in my hometown and i was
5:26and he was picking up young girls on his
5:28motorcycle and i was actually
5:30hitchhiking
5:30at a place where he picked a girl up the
5:33next day who looked very much like me so
5:35and i'm actually kind of friends with
5:37him we've been corresponding for
5:40well over two decades um he's in prison
5:44so i guess for me that was my first kind
5:47of sense of it
5:48uh it didn't really launch me into a
5:50crime but it did
5:52make me interested in a person like that
5:54um
5:55and and this is way before you know a
5:57lot of we have
5:58a lot of popularity of all of us right
6:00now the time
6:01i was getting into it it was considered
6:04the
6:05the things to avoid if you wanted to be
6:07a writer because
6:08you're never gonna sell books and you
6:10know how how things have changed let me
6:12just say that
6:13but what what i was interested in
6:16really was what made a person this way
6:20and i began writing for the core tv
6:24website and they they kind of just sort
6:26of threw all the
6:27serial killer cases to me and the
6:30forensic science and
6:31psychology cases so i ended up writing
6:34something about like 225 stories for
6:37them
6:38each of which was 10 to 12 000 words
6:40long
6:41so through all that you become an expert
6:43pretty quickly
6:44um and then book deals came you know
6:47fairly quickly as i jumped in into the
6:50scene
6:51and you know changed the entire
6:54landscape of true crime and
6:56and what fascinated people with it so it
6:59kind of got swept up
7:00into it i'll tell you truthfully i start
7:03i
7:03really started as a philosophy professor
7:06i did that at rutgers for 15 years
7:09before i ever did any of this
7:11so wow that was
7:14and actually frankly i was never going
7:16to go to college
7:18at all when i was 18.
7:21and took three years before i did but
7:23now i'm working on my fifth graduate
7:24degree
7:25so things change wow wow
7:28wow that is amazing that is amazing
7:32that's so funny um you know i i did i
7:34started off in
7:35philosophy and psychology when i went to
7:38um college at first and ended up in you
7:41know obviously
7:42i'm a entertainment person so um you
7:45know as actress a writer
7:46producer so uh i ended up you know doing
7:49a fine arts degree but uh
7:51um i really enjoyed the psychological
7:53stuff and so i've always like tried to
7:56um grab textbooks on it and like teach
7:59myself stuff you know so
8:00um but but anyway yesterday i was
8:04talking about
8:05um btk and just if you guys didn't get a
8:08chance to watch it
8:09uh just a little bit about dennis is
8:11dennis rader he began
8:13um his tirade of murders in 1974. um he
8:16stalked and killed a family of four
8:18and he was fascinated with binding and
8:20torturing his victims before murdering
8:22him
8:23leading them to later be called the
8:25blind bind
8:26torture kill killer or btk for short
8:29and over the years he juggled being a
8:31family man and a murderer
8:33and he has been attached to 10 murders
8:35but some believe there were more
8:37and in 2005 he got caught in a game of
8:40sorts with the police sending the
8:41messages and etc
8:43and he was caught and tried for murder
8:45and for the 10 murders
8:47so you dealt with him a lot so was there
8:50anything in raider's past that would
8:52lead him to this kind of propensity for
8:55binding and torturing his victims before
8:56killing them or
8:58is that just something that he randomly
9:00picked up well i mean i wrote a whole
9:02book that's a little
9:03so right right right i didn't give that
9:05to you in a succinct
9:07way but basically let me just first of
9:10all a raider named himself
9:12that that came out of him him telling
9:14police that's name he wanted
9:17um i got to know him
9:20about 10 years ago we spent five
9:23of those years working very hard on
9:26his what i call his guided autobiography
9:29because i guided him toward
9:31the kind of information that would be
9:33beneficial to forensic psychology
9:35criminology and law enforcement so
9:38it wasn't just a serial killer
9:40blathering on about himself it was
9:42you know very very uh structured in a
9:44way
9:45to get him thinking about certain things
9:47that he himself would not have thought
9:48of on his own
9:50um but then of course a lot of it had to
9:52do with who he was
9:53as a child he and he turns out to be
9:56pretty unique
9:57he was an all-american boy with an
9:59intact family
10:00and both sets of grandparents and he
10:02grew up on on
10:04farms before they moved to wichita you
10:06know
10:07his father had been in the in the
10:08military but then came home and
10:11everything it seems absolutely normal
10:14midwest
10:14basic boy stuff cowboys and indians you
10:18know all that kind of stuff
10:20but in the back of his mind there were
10:22things working on him in terms of
10:25uh he he felt very off balance with
10:28with females um and he didn't like that
10:31he
10:32he really hated that in fact
10:35um so this is not a guy who has your
10:37typical
10:38things he he did some cruelty with cats
10:42mostly because his grandmother hated
10:43cats
10:44but he didn't really have that that kind
10:46of streak in him and he didn't
10:48set fires and wet beds and you know all
10:50the stuff that people think
10:52aren't encouraging to serial murder
10:54which they're not
10:55at all that's that's one of the worst um
10:58misconceptions of serial murder
11:00out there at any rate with with raider
11:03he began to first of all have this anger
11:06against
11:07uh females in part because his mother
11:08humiliated him a few times
11:10um and he just he just didn't he felt
11:12out of control which he didn't like he
11:14was the oldest
11:15boy of four in his family he liked the
11:18idea that he was in charge
11:19and yet he was getting bad grades mostly
11:22female teachers
11:24so he felt under their power and so he
11:27began to
11:28to have these ideas of trapping women
11:31girl traps
11:32things like that um and then when he was
11:34i think
11:3514 the um
11:38clutter murders happened in kansas in
11:41cold blood
11:42they happened in kansas about 200 miles
11:44to the west of
11:46wichita and he was in a car that night
11:49with a with a girl that he had a crush
11:51on and he came over the radio and he
11:53immediately wanted to you know bind her
11:56and kill her
11:57that was his response it excited him he
12:00also had been reading
12:02some true detective magazines anyone who
12:04thinks those magazines didn't have any
12:06influence on people
12:08have no idea uh they were they're
12:11absolutely salacious they were
12:13you know as near to pornography in those
12:15days as you could get
12:17and he got a hold of a cop some copies
12:19his father had one was the h.h holmes
12:21story and one was
12:22the harvey glattman story and gladman
12:24bound his victims took pictures of them
12:26told them he was going to kill them
12:28and that that look on the face of these
12:31young women that
12:32did end up dead and just transfixed
12:36dennis and he wanted to duplicate that
12:39in the face of a woman too like in that
12:42funnicello of the
12:44mouseketeers so so all of these
12:47influences sort of braided together
12:51to you know become murder fantasies
12:55and these rem now we say he started in
12:591974 but did he
13:01carried a hit kit when he was in the
13:04military overseas
13:06right really did he never use it you
13:08know he says no
13:09can we believe that i don't know yeah no
13:11how do you believe the word of a series
13:14well right they they lie
13:17but the thing with raider is yeah no
13:19they like they even
13:21they even take they even go ahead
13:24i didn't just take i mean he wasn't just
13:27talking to me
13:27i also had five years of letters he had
13:30written to another person who had
13:32wanted to write a book with him and then
13:34handed it off to me
13:35i had the entire police interrogation i
13:39had the da's files because she was a
13:41friend of mine
13:42i had letters from other people so i had
13:44a number of ways into him
13:47so that i could pretty easily catch him
13:49out in lies and
13:50and did a few times and he got pretty
13:52upset with me
13:54but also he's a narcissist so he wants
13:57to make sure he gets the fame
13:59you know that he thinks he's coming to
14:00him and so he
14:02you know he wasn't going to turn me away
14:04because this the families
14:05the victims families who get the
14:07proceeds of this book
14:10they really had approved me
14:14and they had not approved anyone else so
14:16it wasn't like
14:17this was going to be an avenue for him
14:19in any other way
14:21so in a way he was stuck with me you get
14:23along well i mean
14:24i mean five years is a very intense time
14:27to be working on someone's life story
14:29and we still continue to you know
14:32communicate
14:32and work on things but so that's that's
14:36my experience with the btk serial killer
14:38it was
14:39intense um and
14:42i don't know that i'd want to ever do
14:44another one quite that involved
14:46yeah we feel the same way we we spent
14:49four years
14:49working on the gypsy rose blanchard case
14:52um and everything was fantastic
14:54until like you said we began to catch
14:56lies and
14:58mistruths and we had everything just
14:59like like what you're talking about you
15:01know we had all the medical files that
15:02nobody's ever seen not even the
15:04not even her defense attorney or gypsy
15:07um because she signed
15:08for us to have them you know so we
15:10contacted the the
15:12places and got them and and of course we
15:14intend to give her copies of those you
15:15know later
15:16but once we started uncovering things
15:18that didn't jive with what her story and
15:21her parents story was
15:22they turned on us very quickly and same
15:25thing i don't think we'd ever want to go
15:26that deep
15:27into and i'm writing a book you know
15:29we're all working on it but i'm i'm the
15:31actual writer on it
15:32and um i don't think i'd ever want to go
15:35that deep again or at least not get that
15:37close
15:37to them because it was heartbreaking
15:39when um
15:40it turned you know it just really killed
15:43all of us we were very very
15:45very heartbroken and it took a very long
15:47time for us to get over that
15:49so um well i actually wouldn't
15:52mind if that happens
15:57you know i approached it more clinically
16:00than passionately
16:01and you know there's only i don't know
16:04how
16:04much further i want to take it so take
16:07it right
16:08so i did read that you and raider
16:10developed like a sort of code
16:12so he was able to like freely talk about
16:14his victims fantasies and ultimately
16:16what led him to commit these murders so
16:18can you tell us a little bit about how
16:19you guys developed that
16:21and maybe give us some like some insight
16:23into it because i've never heard of that
16:25being done before so yeah and again he's
16:27unique
16:28so one thing raider thought about
16:31himself is that he's kind of like a spy
16:34so when people wanted to to talk with
16:36him they had to
16:37agree to use codes part of that was
16:39practical because he didn't want the
16:42guards
16:42in the prison to know what he was saying
16:44to people and part of it was to see how
16:46far you would go with him in the game
16:49and of course i'm going to go in the
16:51game but the interesting thing was
16:53you know the and this whole first
16:54chapter is about the formation of this
16:56code because
16:57you know he sent me half and he sent the
17:00other
17:01woman who had the five years worth of
17:03letters that i mentioned
17:05and he said her her half of the code and
17:07we had to kind of
17:08put it together but he had forgotten
17:10some of it so it
17:12we couldn't quite get it to work and so
17:15finally
17:16i said ah i'll make the code
17:20so here so here's an interesting thing
17:22if you listen to the irony of this
17:24he doesn't want a woman in charge right
17:27yet i'm the one who's got
17:28all the power and also i'm making the
17:31code
17:32and i made the code in a way that i knew
17:34would appeal to him because i knew the
17:36things that
17:37he really liked like the number three
17:40and
17:40you know there were certain other kinds
17:42of imagery things he like
17:44so i created the code uh with all of
17:47that
17:47and that's what we used for the book so
17:49that was the interesting part is that he
17:51started with his
17:53to make me fall into line and we ended
17:56up
17:57using mine i don't think he
18:00himself recognized the twist in that
18:04but how ironic to me i would bet that he
18:07didn't recognize that twist
18:10um so now what is his fascination with
18:12the number three where does that come
18:14from
18:14yeah he has this idea that three is
18:16magical in some way and so everything
18:20everything essentially he reads through
18:22the number three
18:24there was some movie um i kind of think
18:27what it
18:27it starred um oh
18:30he used to be a comedian and then he
18:32became a serious actor
18:34trying to think who it was are you
18:36thinking of numbers
18:37yeah that's it yes yes i like that yeah
18:40so
18:41he got kind of caught up in this idea
18:43that three has some magical quality
18:45for example my birthday is was january
18:482nd so one
18:49two well he wanted to trade birthdays
18:51because
18:52you know i have the one and the two
18:54makes three
18:56he's like mike he's like mine because
18:58mine is january 21st
19:02his is in march so he's got the number
19:04three in the month there but
19:05you know so he looks at everything like
19:09events that happen he'll he'll go do you
19:12see
19:12do you see the three in that and when
19:14when he was um stalking victims he
19:16always looked for number three in the
19:17address or
19:18some permutation so it could be a six or
19:20nine or two things like
19:22one and two that make three it always
19:24happens
19:25in some way to three he obviously must
19:28have watched
19:28a lot of sesame street because i
19:30remember three is a magic number from
19:32sesame street
19:35that's funny because i'm serious that
19:38that there was like a little song and
19:39they played it it's like
19:40three is a magic number maybe it was you
19:43know maybe not maybe it's not sesame
19:44street maybe it's the um schoolhouse
19:46rocks
19:47like um that's what i think it is it's
19:49schoolhouse rock actually
19:50so yeah his number three thing went
19:54earlier than any of those shows but he's
19:56not the only person to have thought that
19:58but yeah but he really does view the
20:00world through it
20:01right so he's constantly reminding me of
20:03it
20:05that is kind of crazy so guys just so
20:06you know if you're just tuning in
20:08we're talking with catherine um ramzlin
20:11and she
20:11is an author of over 68 books
20:28not sure what happened but you're you're
20:30frozen i don't hear you
20:36okay i'm back okay sorry sorry sorry
20:40sorry
20:40um so just letting you guys know if
20:42you're just tuning in we are talking
20:43with catherine ramsaland author of 68
20:46books in the realms of crime forensic
20:47science and supernatural
20:49we're mostly talking about her book
20:50confessions of a serial killer that's
20:52all about
20:53the b2k killer which is dennis raider so
20:56um
20:56also talked about him referring to a bad
20:58side as the minotaur
21:00and was this entity that he claims did
21:02the
21:05feelings a little bit about this
21:06compartmentalism because it is something
21:08that we've seen
21:09in a couple of the cases that we've
21:11looked at like golden fake killer
21:12and the son of sam and nicholas gorda
21:15john where they
21:16create like um you know these several
21:19others
21:20that kind of create these different
21:21personalities and say that they're the
21:22ones that committed the murders
21:25no it's not greater in fact he doesn't
21:28even
21:28he doesn't even his concept is even
21:30better than this idea of
21:32compartmentalizing
21:33he calls it and so if you imagine
21:36a cubing so if you imagine a cube
21:40the person is all size of that cube but
21:42on on each of the
21:44sides could be a serial killer on one
21:46side family man and another
21:48church president on another thief on
21:51another
21:52so he can switch around on the cube for
21:54whatever he needs at any given context
21:57which i think actually is a lot better
21:59concept than compartmentalizing
22:01but at no point did he say you know
22:03there was there was a very short period
22:05of time he talked about being possessed
22:06by a demon and that was mostly because
22:08his minister
22:09suggested it to him very early after he
22:12got arrested but that's not what he
22:14really thought
22:15and the minimum yeah
22:18there's any serial killer that's just a
22:20term he uses part of his code
22:22i see i see okay okay so it's part of
22:25that code that he came up with i get it
22:26um that's interesting um but we i mean i
22:29have seen a lot of them do this where
22:30they
22:31uh it's almost as if uh by but
22:34i like your idea i like the idea of
22:36cubing that is neat because you know
22:38they can be all different things
22:40but we've seen this in several other
22:41ones that we've that we've worked with
22:43like nicholas go to john he
22:44uh you know claimed that he had a 500
22:47500 year old vampire inside of him that
22:49he's the one that did everything else
22:50but nicholas was like the good guy
22:52you know uh yeah said gemini
22:57what is the reasoning for that and do
22:59you just do you just believe that that's
23:01like something that they're doing to
23:02kind of
23:03rationalize it to themselves and so they
23:05don't have to admit to it or what do you
23:07think it really is
23:09they're just posting right right they
23:11heard just another
23:13they heard it from some it's it's the
23:15same thing from one to another they all
23:16have the same thing so
23:18it gets passed around prisons and stuff
23:20right
23:22the the idea of a 500 year old vampire
23:24is the same thing as rolling
23:26rollins with uh with his gemini which he
23:28got out
23:29of exorcist three right
23:33john wayne gacy had john hanley jack
23:35hanley
23:36that he blamed and that was his
23:38preparation for the insanity defense
23:40and almost always it's opposed
23:44it is right yes opposed right right
23:46exactly
23:47like berkeley virgo explained his dog
23:49you know like
23:50and he and and very quickly said
23:54he made that up right right right
23:57right it can be happy the hillside
23:59strength or also malingered
24:01you know multiple personality disorder
24:03and then got caught out
24:05right so it's just it's just something
24:07that they use because they've read about
24:09it and
24:09i think and it's easy to fake it's very
24:11easy to think
24:12they've read about it so they use it and
24:14people are fooled by it
24:16so right right fun for them they have
24:18nothing to lose
24:19but i've never i've never seen a genuine
24:21case of it amongst syria
24:23no no i haven't either um fighting with
24:26crime247
24:27um no it's not like multiple
24:29personalities they're claiming
24:30multiple personalities in many cases but
24:33it's like she's saying it's a ruse it's
24:35something that they're doing um
24:37like with nicholas it was his way of
24:39saying oh no no it's not me so he didn't
24:42have to be judged
24:43so if he said something that was strange
24:45or whatever then he'd just blame it on
24:46another personality well he did the same
24:48thing with killing deity he blamed it on
24:50this you know victor and it's victor
24:52that did it not me i'm a good guy that's
24:53victor that's not him you know so
24:55there is right
25:05but there is there is actually you know
25:08multiple personality disorder but that's
25:10not what these guys are doing that it's
25:11not
25:12that is not it you know um and i'm sure
25:14that there is somebody who does kill
25:16that way
25:16uh somewhere but this is not these guys
25:19these guys are claiming it
25:21to either get out of it or you know make
25:24themselves not look so bad to others
25:26it's it's a way to you know keep from
25:29having to you know
25:30admit to something so uh it's not like
25:33that at all
25:34so um in rolling stone they wrote that
25:37these
25:37murders were the climax to his sexual
25:40fantasies can you tell us what he was
25:42doing with the clippings from the
25:43magazine and what exactly
25:45were these motel parties and also if i'm
25:48not mistaken
25:49he never like sexually assaulted any of
25:51his victims so if that was a sexual
25:53release for him
25:55why didn't he do that to them he he
25:58sexually molested josephine ortega okay
26:03okay so he did defend her this 13 year
26:0711 year old he hanged her from a
26:10you know a beam in the basement and
26:13masturbated with her
26:14doesn't matter if he penetrated her he
26:17molested her
26:18yes so absolutely he did that
26:22he he took one woman after he murdered
26:25her out of her home and posed her
26:28in underwear that he had stolen out of
26:30other homes i would call that
26:31molestation
26:33okay yeah doesn't matter if he's raping
26:35them he is certainly molesting them in a
26:38sexual manner
26:40right sure sure exactly okay
26:43so what was he doing with those
26:44clippings from the magazine and what are
26:46motel parties
26:47well the clippies of the magazine are
26:49his slick ad girls
26:50and he he had hundreds of them he would
26:54name them and give them a little story
26:56and take them with him to work
26:58he puts a you know slick ad girl
27:02named diane or daisy or whatever
27:06and he'd talk to her while he was
27:07driving around in his you know work
27:09truck or something like that
27:11uh they were fantasy girls basically he
27:13still has them he's made some for me
27:15while he's been in prison
27:18they're just the wait for him to ground
27:20a fantasy
27:21in in what a magazine girl looks like
27:24and
27:25i'll tell you one thing about raider
27:26he's he's not very original
27:28most of his ideas came from
27:31novels or true crime books or uh you
27:34know
27:35getting the magazine girls he he doesn't
27:37really have the
27:38an ability to just fantasize somebody
27:42out of thin air he's got to have some
27:45pattern set for him by somebody else
27:48i've found that almost everything that
27:50he comes up with is a copy of somebody
27:53so he's kind of unique in that way
27:55because he wanted to copy aj
27:57holmes in his fantasy life he wanted to
27:59copy harvey glattman
28:01and ted bundy and you know he paid
28:04attention to the killers who would
28:05strangle because that was the method
28:07that he
28:08used the boston strangler was another
28:10one the hillside
28:12he didn't really care much about someone
28:14like the zodiac because he shot
28:16his victims or although he didn't he did
28:19find a couple
28:20um but mostly raider looked at the ones
28:23that he could copy from so he he's not a
28:26very original kind of person
28:29girls were just something to entertain
28:31himself with the motel parties when he
28:33was on the road
28:35for various uh jobs like he was a census
28:37worker for a while
28:39he would he would then gather up all
28:42these
28:42these various sexual paraphernalias uh
28:46into his kid he'd go shopping in
28:47hardware stores and things like that to
28:49make
28:50to make more and then he'd masturbate
28:53with barbie dolls and
28:54things like that he at one point he had
28:56read that a serial killer
28:58had a a dry cleaning bag that he put
29:01victims in so
29:02raider got some kind of barbie doll
29:05and and one of these bags and got into
29:08it with her
29:09this is all fantasy but he but he had
29:12all these bizarre
29:13things to do it with and he always
29:16loved going out of town because he
29:18didn't have to check in with his wife
29:20and kids
29:21and he had all the time in the world to
29:23do these
29:24so he called them motel parties because
29:27it was his way
29:28to be away from home and indulge himself
29:31out about these fantasies right now you
29:34said uh he didn't really care a lot
29:36about
29:36zodiac but i wonder and and this could
29:39be totally
29:39because i can't remember exactly the
29:41dates of when both of them were doing
29:42things so did zodiac came first right i
29:44i
29:44i if i was in person the raider was
29:47overseas in the military there are
29:49people who say he's the zodiac killer
29:51that he got on a plane somehow and flew
29:53back just in time to commit these
29:55murders
29:56oh my gosh everybody tries to say zodiac
29:58is somebody i have people that say that
29:59zodiac is golden state killer i just
30:02it's crazy but what i was thinking about
30:04that maybe he took from zodiac
30:05was um not um the code
30:08kind of idea and um maybe probably the
30:11taunting of the police because
30:14zodiac did the same thing you know so
30:15maybe that's something that he took from
30:17zodiac
30:17you know he took the idea of a ruse
30:20where
30:22you know potential victims that he was
30:24just a huge deal
30:26with that he took uh there you know he
30:28there a couple
30:29he'll say he didn't pay any attention
30:31but i i'll be able to show you know yes
30:33this is what zodiac did i i know that
30:35you read
30:36you read the accounts i don't care what
30:38you're saying it's obvious
30:40but does that mean the thing about why
30:43he's not the zodiac is
30:44he wants fame i wouldn't take credit
30:47he's got nothing right
30:49it's not like right his death penalty
30:51means anything as we just found out this
30:53week
30:54so that would make him the most famous
30:58serial killer in the world
31:00[Laughter]
31:02right so yeah like all infinite power
31:05you know
31:06when someone told me the reason he won't
31:08say he's a zodiac is because
31:10he's afraid for his soul i'm like okay
31:13no he's not
31:14he's actually not that's right right
31:18right so i know that you worked with him
31:20directly
31:21um did you ever just sit across the
31:23table and see
31:24a normal person or was it always this
31:27kind of evilness in him
31:29no he's not you and almost
31:32never are they evil right you're right
31:37they're evil for the people they're
31:38going to kill or harm
31:41torture those are the people who see the
31:43evilness
31:44in the
31:47and he was just a completely ordinary
31:50person
31:51um right when i was was at the prison
31:54you know he'd
31:56be like oh how was your trip you know
31:58the things you talk about
32:00and that and actually being at the
32:01prison the least
32:04beneficial to the book because the
32:05guards would hang out
32:07you know and not even face to face so
32:10much or in booths where you have to use
32:12a monitor because he's in maximum
32:14security
32:15right so you don't even get what you see
32:17on tv you know the glass
32:19thing but you don't get that either um
32:21right
32:22but the guards would be on his side
32:23they'd be on my side
32:26you can't talk here there's no way to
32:28get anything done here
32:30so that was really not a very effective
32:32way of approaching this
32:34but you know most of our conversations
32:37are on the phone
32:38and usually right an hour at a time and
32:40we
32:41probably did most of our work that way
32:45so what conclusions about him did you
32:48draw from the time you worked with him
32:49and
32:49what is this factor x
32:54well factor x he did challenge me
32:57because
32:57he to him that's the mystery that
33:00resides
33:01in all serial killers and it's different
33:03for each one and he's right that is
33:05exactly right what what motivates and
33:07drives them is
33:08within their own individual developments
33:11but
33:12and his factor x wasn't difficult it's a
33:15it's really a braided
33:16braiding of three factors control over
33:19women
33:20because he hated that humiliation
33:28[Music]
33:34catherine are you there yes i am can you
33:37hear me
33:38i can hear you i can hear storms and so
33:44nothing she is saying is coming through
33:45oh there you are there you go
33:47i'm sorry can you say that again because
33:49i i'm sorry we're having storms
33:51so we're having storms coming through so
33:53miami where are you
33:55i am in kentucky so we're having huge
33:58awful storms right now rolling through
34:01so okay
34:02all right so factor x basically is is
34:04the things that
34:05most affected him were he wanted control
34:08over women
34:08he wanted to be famous and he had these
34:12fantasies of bondage and domination
34:15so the three of them weaved together to
34:18to show what compels him and what did
34:20compel him
34:21in each of his murders wow
34:25um and did i know you said you know that
34:27he had some fantasies and things about
34:28the binding torture and he kind of
34:30picked it up from other serial killers
34:31but did you ever find anything like
34:33deeper about that or it was just
34:35something that he just
34:36he just took from another person and
34:38kind of put it into his his well i mean
34:40it the bondage really came from the
34:42games he played as a boy
34:44when when the cowboys and indians they'd
34:47bind you know they'd tie each other up
34:50they defined it erotic and so you're
34:52always looking at
34:53where does the eroticism come from it's
34:55always just as if
34:57you're going into puberty they're
34:58becoming you know young
35:00young males that are sexual beings and
35:04the kinds of things that get
35:05paired with that process become
35:09uh often become paraphilias now not all
35:11paraphilias are criminal in fact most
35:13are not
35:14but those that become coercive that
35:16require harm to
35:17others or trespass on others rights
35:21those those are coercive paraphilias and
35:24they
35:24do get into the realm of criminality
35:27so um you know any kind of sexual
35:31sadism or need to torture or bind or
35:34kill somebody
35:34in order to get you know to be aroused
35:38and to
35:38get excited and to have a climax that's
35:42that's a coercive paraphilia so
35:45he developed and it really went back to
35:48binding and he began to in private
35:52tie ropes around his waist and cut off
35:55his own air
35:56so hypoxia sets in you know i do think
35:59he probably had some amount of brain
36:01damage because he had
36:02there were three times when he had head
36:04injuries
36:05and he also had these hypoxic events
36:08where
36:09oxygen was taken from his brain because
36:11he he
36:12would tie these ropes around himself for
36:14erotic purposes
36:16to the point almost of passing out so he
36:18did some damage to himself
36:20very young but it was an erotic thing
36:22and it became a permanently erotic thing
36:25right um so you talk about the front the
36:28the
36:28um head damage uh that's something that
36:30happened with uh dahmer as well
36:32um but i was reading something the other
36:34day in a psychology thing that said that
36:36most serial killers have some sort of
36:38frontal lobe damage or trauma before the
36:41age of 21.
36:42is that is that true that is not true
36:44that's a very old study i don't even
36:46know where they got that one from
36:48it's a very old study and it's not true
36:50we don't do not
36:52we have thousands of serial killers oh
36:54right
36:55honestly right and right and often you
36:58know what happened is when the
36:59when the fbi profilers the behavioral
37:02science unit before it was a behavioral
37:04analysis unit
37:05you know they went around to these
37:06prison interviews which were not
37:08randomly sampled by any stretch of the
37:11imagination and a very small
37:12sample of the 36 was only 25 serial
37:15killers
37:15but out of that they generated these
37:17articles and that's where the mcdonald
37:19triad you know they thought that that
37:21wedding all of that and they were not
37:24correct
37:24and even in their calculations on that
37:26small sample
37:28wasn't even the majority of people who
37:30had those three
37:31um but we we got these myths about
37:35serial killers
37:36out of some of these early
37:38non-randomized
37:39samples and claims made because it was
37:43the fbi
37:44agents who were writing and publishing
37:47papers and unfortunately they became
37:49sort of the basis of what we think about
37:51serial killers
37:52it takes me a long time uh in my class
37:56on extreme offenders to disabuse my
37:58students
37:59of some of these myths i have a list of
38:0220 and i just go through
38:04you think you know i have no
38:07research support for a great many of
38:10these things but the claims are out
38:11there in the media
38:13so they think it's true and that is one
38:14of them
38:16well maybe we'll have to have you back
38:17on to tell us about those 20.
38:21um so i know you were saying you know
38:22some of the fbi profilers you know went
38:25around and made
38:25did these studies one of those was john
38:27douglas and so
38:29you actually helped him write um or gave
38:31him some information about writing the
38:33cases that haunt us what was it like
38:34working with john
38:35everybody knows that i did the research
38:38i did the right
38:39book and right right um you know and
38:42then what we do
38:44and mark o'shea was the writer and john
38:46was was the eighth
38:47the fbi agent so we'd get together and
38:50we'd order a pizza and i'd bring in the
38:52research
38:52and and and you know john would write it
38:55and
38:56i mean mark would write it and john
38:57would talk about what you know how he's
38:59profiling that particular crime so of
39:01those cases
39:03things like the black dahlia was one of
39:05them lizzie borden i went over and
39:06i spent the night in the lizzie borton
39:08house up on myself
39:12that was amazing i am like priestly
39:15obsessed with lizzie borden like that is
39:17something
39:17yeah although it's not like it was when
39:21i went
39:22it was right now they've made it into
39:24more of a
39:25circus when i when i went
39:28the it was a bed and breakfast but i was
39:31able to stay there all by myself because
39:32nobody else had booked that night
39:34and wow more serious atmosphere
39:39and so i did the research for for john
39:41douglas in in town in the museum and the
39:43cemetery and all the various places and
39:46then i did some ghost research at the
39:48same time
39:48for my own book wow
39:52yeah i worked with john for that on that
39:54book and
39:56you know it was really sort of my
39:57introduction into
39:59behavior profiling that was that was
40:01like you know in the 1990s
40:03so right right right so
40:06my obsession with lizzie borden goes way
40:08back like and this is probably me
40:10sharing like something that people are
40:12gonna be like oh my god she's such a
40:13weirdo
40:14but when i was in like fifth and sixth
40:16grade there was these girls that i hung
40:17out with and we all like pretended that
40:19we were lizzie borden sisters
40:22for some reason like and we would do
40:23like a whole like show about it like you
40:25know we were all like just
40:27acting but we were making up like all
40:29kinds of like characteristic things that
40:31happened and how lizzie did stuff
40:33and it was just so weird
40:36maple crop is for sale right now
40:38[Laughter]
40:40190 000 you should buy it that's where
40:43she live
40:45i definitely should that's so funny
40:47we're talking about
40:48property so we i said earlier in the
40:51show that you
40:52are the exec one of the executive
40:53producers of murder house
40:55flip so let's talk about that tell me
40:57about that show how did you
40:58kind of come up with the idea and what
41:00do you guys got planned for coming
41:02upcoming stuff
41:03the idea for murder house flip came from
41:06when i was teaching a course on my
41:09extreme offenders course
41:11and i was talking about a triple
41:13homicide in our town
41:15in in the area where i live in
41:17pennsylvania
41:19and one of my students
41:22drove by the house and said it's for
41:25sale
41:26at the very same time i had already once
41:29pitched a show to
41:30cbs and they bought it in the room but
41:32then the economy tanked so
41:34i already had some connections with sony
41:36and and josh berman who's a former
41:38executive producer of csi
41:41who i met on a writer's cruise to alaska
41:44but that's another story
41:46everything's about connections so he
41:49at that time he said do you have any any
41:51ideas
41:53and i sent him a list and at the bottom
41:55of the list i put murder house flip as a
41:57funny
41:58i just thought he'd laugh and he
42:01immediately
42:02ignored everything else i sent and said
42:04give me a treatment
42:05on that and that was i guess three
42:10almost four yeah four years ago now wow
42:13so so i gave you know i came up with
42:16many many murder houses that could be
42:18explored now this is
42:19initially you had this idea that we were
42:21going to buy them and flip them but
42:22we quickly realized we're we are going
42:25to
42:25buy all these houses and keep them in
42:28you know on the chance that somebody's
42:30gonna buy them back from us
42:32so it became more of a murder house
42:33makeover show
42:35and we went around pitching that it was
42:37it was very exotic to me to run around
42:40hollywood pitching to
42:41hbo and showtime and abc and
42:44all the all these places it was really
42:46fun i didn't think anything would come
42:48of it but it was really great
42:49i had a great time and we you know we
42:53had ups and downs ups and downs for
42:55three years
42:56is how long we ended up pitching i've
42:59been there done that
43:01and then uh quippy started up and sony
43:04had
43:05an association with with them so quick
43:08bites
43:08is what they you know it's a streaming
43:10service
43:12so we just happened to get in the door
43:14as they were looking at stuff
43:15and they thought wow and stephen stephen
43:17spielberg actually was aware of our
43:19concept which
43:20you know and everybody thought that wow
43:22this is going to be a huge or terrible
43:24one or the other
43:39was so unique and yet why hadn't anyone
43:42ever said it before because it's
43:44also so obvious but right this
43:47essentially the idea is that you take
43:50a house that had a murder or several
43:53murders as in the case of dorothy puente
43:56and you healed the space where that
43:58happened
44:00so amazing and i'm gonna tell you they
44:02get such incredible makeovers
44:04that i'm afraid we're gonna inspire
44:06murders because people will want that
44:09people
44:10right great amazing makeovers
44:13it's right it's fun because it's with
44:16qibby you get
44:17like five to six minute chunks right
44:20three uh you get the crime
44:23with all the you know right
44:27you get the designers talk about what
44:30can we do to redo this
44:32sometimes those stories involved as well
44:34and then
44:35finally you get the reveal of all the
44:37amazing things they did to the house and
44:39how the
44:39owners feel about it so we took the
44:42first season was four
44:44houses we are in second season
44:47now collecting our various houses and
44:50and pitching them again to quibby so
44:52we'll have a second season
44:54we have enough for a third season if it
44:56comes to that so
44:57it's very exciting for me because i get
45:00to be
45:00you know one of three of us who are
45:03executive producers and we get to
45:05look at all the casting tapes and all
45:07this stuff it's
45:08really fun for me because because you
45:11know i
45:11i just never dreamed this something like
45:13this could happen and
45:15it's been a blast to to be part of it
45:18it's really been amazing
45:20yeah um so fun fact when i was i think i
45:24was
45:2422 or 23 i because i had my first
45:26daughter at this time
45:27my sis my best friend and i um who i
45:30consider like a sister
45:31we were both real estate agents and uh
45:34one of that
45:35company one of the agencies that we
45:37worked for did a lot of with hud
45:38houses and so we were going to
45:44show this thank god we went to go look
45:47at it before
45:48we uh made the appointment for the
45:51person to come look at it because it was
45:52everything they wanted
45:53neighborhood they wanted nice outside
45:56you know looking house
45:57nowhere on the mls system nowhere in the
46:01hud
46:01like anything said anything about
46:04something happening inside this house
46:06so i get it you know we've got the block
46:08box we put the code in
46:09we both walked through the door and
46:11immediately it we are hit with like the
46:13most awful smell ever
46:15and the walls are just covered in blood
46:18and there's like matter like brain
46:21matter
46:22and everything all over this living room
46:25and nobody was prepared for this my best
46:27friend and i both ran out and i
46:29you know we're puking in the bushes and
46:31uh i'm like in tears
46:33and i'm not normally affected by that
46:35but when you get up and close
46:36personal with that and you're not
46:38expecting that that is freaking crazy
46:41and
46:41it was the most horrific horrifying
46:44weird
46:45interesting day of my life like you know
46:48because then we went and tried to find
46:49out what happened you know because we
46:51because we were true crime buffs so you
46:53know we went and found out that um
46:55it was a guy who um had murdered his
46:57wife you know and
46:59um hud took care you know took over the
47:01home and
47:02they hadn't cleaned it yet they
47:03literally had not sent in cleaners yet
47:05and they had it listed and it's like are
47:07you guys kidding me with this like
47:10we had it we had a house that we still
47:12found blood in
47:13when we were doing the makeover where
47:14they pulled up the floor and there it
47:16was
47:17well this was like i mean as if the
47:19murder scene had just happened
47:21like i mean it was that
47:24intense i i i'm talking literally brain
47:26matter
47:27on the walls and and blood running down
47:29it was cra i mean it had to have been a
47:31very brutal
47:32murder whatever happened you know i mean
47:34it was bad so
47:35well where could be isn't that something
47:37you want to be didn't don't you think
47:39you want to have that experience if
47:40you're a true proud person
47:42yes yes actually yes but
47:45i would like to know about it before i
47:46walk into it
47:49i have seen that now i've gone and seen
47:50things like that now
47:52but at 22 and not thinking about it and
47:55i actually think you know what i think i
47:57was pregnant with my second daughter at
47:58the time too so that was probably
48:00another reaction all of itself you know
48:03but
48:04um i wouldn't it just it was crazy but
48:06like i said we
48:07we were fascinated by it afterwards we
48:09were like well how do you how does this
48:11happen
48:11who is it what is this house you know so
48:14that was interesting you know and
48:16found out all about it but but it was
48:18crazy but you know i've never had that
48:20experience that was a very strange
48:22experience like
48:23yeah you know i've been to crime scenes
48:25before and i've you know been to
48:26different things like that but
48:28definitely that one was a crazy moment
48:32yes and i was not expecting it in any
48:34way shape or form
48:35i think if i'd been prepared it would
48:37have been fine but
48:40like i said i'm so glad that a client
48:41wasn't with us because that would have
48:43been
48:43just the most traumatic thing for this
48:46poor person who just wants to buy a
48:47house
48:48you know so although they could have
48:51talked down the price of it
48:55of course of course well that was kind
48:57of the concept of the show is that these
48:59are stigmatized properties
49:01and so they do go for lesser prices
49:04and we're trying to heal them so that
49:06they can be restored to market value
49:10and that's amazing that's amazing um so
49:13uh where can people find more about you
49:16and your books
49:18well i don't have a website anymore i
49:20gave that up a while ago
49:22i i mean if you want the books like my
49:25my latest one is how to catch a killer
49:27which is 30 serial killers and all the
49:29various ways they've been caught
49:31that just came out last month um so
49:34that's
49:34you know amazon barnes and noble any of
49:36those we'll we'll have that
49:38i'm on facebook i have three or four
49:40pages on facebook haunted crime scenes
49:42is one of my pages
49:45there's one for my name there's one fans
49:48of my of me but i just
49:52you know i don't have the time to
49:54maintain websites so you can't find me
49:55on a website
49:57at this point facebook is the best place
49:59to get me i think
50:01okay well guys um if you want to check
50:03out her books her name is catherine
50:05ramsland
50:06like i said 68 books and counting i'm
50:08sure
50:09um so thank you uh miss katherine for
50:13joining us it was a pleasure
50:15i'm sure we would love to have you back
50:16another time like i said talk about
50:18those 20 misnomers you know but
50:22it's time it is time for our secret word
50:24of the week so please
50:25text the word and what time in this
50:28video we asked for it along with your
50:30name
50:30to 502-653-9528 and we'll choose and
50:35name
50:35and announce it on our monday episode so
50:38we can get your address and mail you a
50:40gift so thank you guys so much for
50:41joining us
50:42thanks for dishing up true crime with
50:44the good wives and
50:46miss katherine ramsland bye guys

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