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Freed Texas Death Row Prisoner Anthony Graves on Surviving Torture of Solitary Confinement — Transcript

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0:00folks here on Democracy Now
0:01democracynow.org the Warren peace report
0:04I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez Our
0:06Guest are Jim Ridgeway he is the
0:08co-editor of solitary watch.com we're
0:11also joined by Anthony Graves a former
0:14Texas death row prisoner who testified
0:16Tuesday at the first ever Congressional
0:18hearing on solitary confinement in US
0:21prisons he was convicted along with a
0:23man named Robert Carter of killing a
0:25Texas woman her daughter and her four
0:27grandchildren Graves was fully
0:30exonerated in 2010 after spending 18
0:33years behind bars the bulk of that time
0:35on death row and in solitary confinement
0:38he's now an investigator at the Texas
0:40Defender service and an active member of
0:42the movement to abolish the death
0:43penalty Anthony Graves thank you very
0:46much for coming to democracy now to talk
0:49about your story in a moment we're going
0:50to talk about the case and how you
0:52ultimately got exonerated but for now if
0:55you can describe your time on death row
0:58and in solitary confinement and and what
1:00it meant for you to testify in this
1:02first ever Hearing in the
1:05Senate well first of all thank you Amy
1:08for having me on your show uh I'm a fan
1:10of yours we watch we listen to your show
1:12all the time uh my experience was hell I
1:17I always liken it to something that you
1:20would consider to be your worst
1:22nightmare I I had to go through that
1:24experience every day for 18 and a half
1:27years and uh it was just no way to live
1:32and Anthony graves in terms of uh you
1:35you you described to the members of
1:37Congress the conditions on death row uh
1:39the other prisoners in solitary uh did
1:43uh what did you know about what was
1:45going on with them and and you've also
1:47graphically have described uh what
1:50happened to some of them uh and drove
1:52them uh to uh near Madness at
1:57times well I mean you know it's it's the
2:00culture uh down there and what I mean by
2:03that is that for some reason we feel
2:04that we have to punish people uh the
2:07sentences isn't enough so when I was
2:09down there I mean I I witnessed guys
2:12just you know going insane I I witness
2:14officers doing things that they just
2:16felt that uh they had to do otherwise
2:18they would be uh considered to be uh
2:21soft with the inmates so it's just a
2:23it's a it's a culture of Madness uh and
2:26it's desire designed to drive those guys
2:28totally insane I want to C you Anthony
2:32just testifying at the Senate
2:34subcommittee hearing on Tuesday about
2:36the self-mutilation committed by other
2:38prisoners uh this is a warning to our
2:41listeners and to our viewers this is
2:43quite
2:44graphic I watch
2:47men literally self-mutilate
2:50themselves they have to be put on razor
2:52restrictions because if they given a
2:54razor they would cut their own throat
2:56their own neck they whatever they could
2:58cut at on their bodies
3:00just St there in front of you and cut
3:02themselves and this one man in
3:04particular that I watched do this they
3:07took him over to what they call the
3:08psych actic
3:09War few days later he hung
3:13himself all because of the conditions
3:16there's a man right there sitting on
3:18Texas death row right now who's housing
3:20in solitary confinement pulled his eye
3:22out and swallowed
3:26it all because of the conditions
3:31solitary confinement dehum dehumanizes
3:35us
3:36all I want to also Play a clip from
3:39Tuesday's hearing when Senator deran
3:41asked the Federal Bureau of Prisons
3:43director Charles Samuels about federal
3:45prisoners held in solitary confinement
3:47who engage in
3:49self-mutilation let me get down to some
3:51of the more graphic and I won't go into
3:52detail here in the hearing but it's
3:55there on the record I've read stories
3:57about federal inmates and inmates at
4:00State facilities in isolation who have
4:03clearly reached a point where they are
4:04self
4:06self-destructive they are um maming
4:09themselves mutilating themselves doing
4:13horrible things to themselves they are
4:15creating an environment within that cell
4:18which is awful by any human
4:22standard what happens next in the
4:24Federal Bureau of Prisons when someone
4:27has reached that extreme in their
4:29personal conduct if an individual is
4:34exhibiting that type of Behavior Uh due
4:37to suffering from you know serious
4:40psychiatric uh illness those individuals
4:43are not within our policy individuals
4:46that we would keep at the adx or in
4:50restrictive housing these individuals
4:52are referred to our
4:54psychiatric medical centers for care and
4:59and we believe that that's important and
5:02we would never under any situation
5:05believe that those individuals should be
5:07continued to be housed in that type of
5:09setting adx is the administrative
5:11maximum Detention Facility the supermax
5:14at Florence Colorado Anthony Graves
5:16respond
5:18please yeah he he's speaking about the
5:21guidelines that are written on paper but
5:23in actual reality those things are not
5:25practiced as I say there's a culture of
5:27Madness down there and offic feel that
5:30you know a matter of fact I I spoke with
5:32one officer and I asked him I said man
5:34why do you treat people the way you
5:36treat them down here he said man because
5:38I feel like I'm doing Society a favor
5:40you know so that's the kind of attitude
5:41they have toward the inmates so this
5:43whole notion of them following the
5:45guidelines that this guy is is talking
5:47about on paper is just it doesn't exist
5:49you know it just doesn't
5:51exist yeah I'd like to bring uh uh Jim
5:54Ridgeway back into the conversation uh
5:56Jim you you've said that you believe
5:59that solitary confinement in our prisons
6:02uh is one of the most pressing domestic
6:04human rights problems to which most
6:06Americans remain largely oblivious well
6:09well yes I mean there 2.3 million people
6:11in prison there are at least 880,000
6:13people probably more in solitary and you
6:17know that's an awful lot of people it's
6:19not just you know incidental examples of
6:22torture but I wanted to further what um
6:25Anthony said be I'm not I was I have
6:27never been a prisoner but I'm writing to
6:30a young man now in Upstate New York he
6:33tried to burn his house down when he was
6:355 years old he's been in and out of
6:37mental institutions all his life he's in
6:39his early 20s he's threatened to kill
6:42himself he's tried to kill himself and
6:45he's put in a mental ward in uh I think
6:47it's Attica prison and inside his mental
6:50ward he continued to try to kill himself
6:53he was put in a solitary cell so he
6:55tried to burn the solitary burn it down
6:57so what was the response in this Al Ward
7:00they sent him back outside to UDA
7:03district attorney and they re-indicted
7:05him on arson charges and then sent him
7:07back to the same place now is it is it
7:11is it crazy to think that somebody
7:15somewhere could step in and stop this I
7:18mean he has a public defender and this
7:20public defender won't even call his
7:22family won't talk to his mother it's
7:25just it's incredible the situation in
7:28state and federal prisons in this in
7:31this uh solitary confinement is
7:34absolutely out of control Obama says
7:37there's no torture in America well I
7:41mean you just have to go you know a mile
7:43three miles just around all around you
7:47there's stuff going on now I'm not
7:50saying that all Corrections Officers you
7:52know are torturers or anything like that
7:55I'm just saying there are no
7:58standards the
7:59the wardens can operate at at their whim
8:02and this becomes a second sentence other
8:05words the judge sentences a guy to three
8:07years and he gets inside the prison the
8:10warden or the guard decides that the
8:11guy's a problem they throw him in
8:13solitary and he can stay in solitary
8:16like Billy Blake for example who's a
8:19murderer he's in um Upstate New York
8:21he's been in solitary for 22 years the
8:25guys in Louisiana the Angola too down
8:27there 40 years in solitary
8:30confinement I mean doesn't doesn't a
8:33judge look at this and say well what's
8:36going on here attorney Stewart Andrews
8:39also testified at Tuesday's hearing he
8:41represents a group of South Carolina
8:43prisoners with serious mental illnesses
8:45many of whom have been kept in solitary
8:48confinement the prisoners filed suits
8:50several years ago against the South
8:52Carolina Department of Corrections
8:53alleging violations of the State
8:55Constitution and seeking adequate Mental
8:57Health Services to illustrate some of
9:00what we've learned about the operation
9:01of solitary confinement in our state's
9:03prisons I would like to call your
9:04attention to two individuals who've been
9:06members of our class the first is
9:09Theodore Robinson who is a 50-year-old
9:11man with paranoid schizophrenia serving
9:13a life sentence Mr Robinson speech is
9:15highly disorganized and he has a history
9:18of bizarre behavior such as drinking his
9:20own urine like many people with
9:22schizophrenia he suffers hallucinations
9:24and delusions for example he believes
9:26that at night while he sleeps doctors
9:29secretly enter into enter his cell and
9:31perform surgery on him from 1993 through
9:352005 a period of 12 consecutive years Mr
9:38Robinson was kept in solitary
9:40confinement that's Attorney Stuart
9:42Andrews he said mentally ill prisoners
9:44in South Carolina
9:47are um are actually uh twice as likely
9:51as others to be in solitary confinement
9:53and two and a half times as likely to
9:55receive a sentence in solitary that
9:57exceeds their projected release date
10:00from prison and over three times as
10:02likely to be assigned to an indefinite
10:04period of time in solitary confinement
10:07Jim
10:08rway yes I mean that's that's part for
10:11the course I mean this guy Adam that I'm
10:14talking about this young guy he wrote me
10:16in a letter okay he wrote me in a letter
10:18I think last week or the week before he
10:20said don't tell my mother but each every
10:23night I'm cutting into my arm each night
10:26I cut further and further last night I
10:28reached the muscle I'm cutting and I
10:31hope pretty soon that I'm going to cut
10:33deep enough to bleed out in other words
10:35kill himself you know this isn't a
10:38letter to me you know and I'm saying
10:40please hang on Adam don't do
10:44this and you can't get his public
10:47defender on the telephone I mean what in
10:50the world this is New York
10:54state I want to turn to former Texas
10:58death row prisoner Anthony Graves about
11:00his experience in solitary confinement
11:02uh we want to turn to the story uh we
11:05hear it about how he was in prison uh
11:07for 18 years now to how he was fully
11:10exonerated and released from prison in
11:122010 Graves was convicted in 1994 of
11:15assisting Robert Carter a man he barely
11:17knew in the brutal murders of six people
11:21Bobby Davis her 16-year-old daughter
11:24Nicole and Davis's four grandchildren
11:28the victims were stabed bludgeon shot to
11:30death their house was set on fire there
11:32was no physical evidence linking Graves
11:34to the crime his conviction relied
11:36primarily on Carter's testimony two
11:39weeks before Robert Carter was scheduled
11:41to be executed in 2000 he provided a
11:43statement saying he lied about Graves
11:45involvement in the crime he repeated
11:47that statement minutes before he was
11:50executed then in 2006 an appeals court
11:53over turn Graves conviction and ordered
11:55a new trial saying prosecutors had
11:57elicited false test statements and
11:59withheld testimony after 18 years in
12:02prison most of them on death row Graves
12:04was exonerated and reunited with his
12:06family he's now an investigator of the
12:08Texas Defender service and an active
12:10member of the movement to abolish the
12:12death penalty uh can you tell tell us
12:15Anthony Graves uh when you were first
12:18jailed how uh how you were accused of
12:22the guy with the guy who actually
12:24committed the crimes uh and how you knew
12:27him and and uh
12:29whether you had any hopes initially of
12:31of being uh judged not
12:34guilty well first of all I like to just
12:37correct you and say I no longer work
12:38with the Texas Defender service I've
12:40started my own uh uh foundation and uh
12:44Anthony believes thatc and it's is uh
12:46designed to uh fight uh for Criminal
12:49Justice Reform now as how I came how
12:53they brought me into this whole mess uh
12:57you know of course that was the the uh
13:00the actual crime and the guy showed up
13:03at the at the uh funeral with bandages
13:06all over his body so they uh assumed he
13:09was a person of interest and after the
13:12the funeral they followed him home so
13:15that uh they can talk to him well when
13:17they took him to the DPS office to talk
13:19with him according to Mr Carter he
13:22thought he seen four young men in a jeep
13:24coming off the feet of the highway and
13:26he thought one of those men would meet
13:28so when they went they took him and
13:30interrogated him for over like 14 hours
13:32and according to Mr Carter they
13:34threatened him told him that they would
13:36uh uh look make it look like it was an
13:39escape and shoot him in the head and who
13:41would care about a baby killer but as he
13:43named someone that uh uh did the crime
13:46with him they would let him go so miss
13:49Carter feeling this this pressure to
13:51name someone name me because he said he
13:54had just seen me in the Jeep and so he
13:57thought that if he gave him a crazy
13:58story story that they wouldn't come and
13:59arrest me and but they would also let
14:01him go well that led to me losing 18 and
14:051 12 years of my life and two execution
14:08days I was on death row for 12 and a
14:10half of those years and uh I when I I
14:13tell people that uh I I hear everybody
14:17try to give in a a professional opinion
14:20about uh death row and solitary confir
14:23me but I said that you can never never
14:25ever give it give it accurate unless you
14:27actually live there it is hell it is
14:30hell and is hell every day I mean I'm
14:32saying guys I was there when over 300
14:35men were executed and I I listen to guys
14:38who were happy to be executed instead of
14:40existing up under those same conditions
14:43one guy told me he said man I'm ready to
14:45go you have to live with this madness
14:47tomorrow I mean he would rather die than
14:49exist upon them inhumane conditions I
14:52mean I mean what has happened to our
14:53country well we're treating each other
14:55like that we have definitely crossed the
14:57line when it comes to punish punishment
14:59Crime and Punishment the guy gets
15:01sentenced at his uh uh at his initial
15:03trial and then he goes and gets
15:05sentenced while he's down there to
15:06punishment and torture you know and I I
15:09you know we we laugh when we was down
15:11there we talk we hear people talking
15:13about other country's human rights and
15:17you're sitting here torturing us I mean
15:19we have an opportunity to educate a mass
15:21of people that are behind that are
15:23incarcerated and move this thing toward
15:25positiveness so that when they come out
15:26there's no recidivism anymore but yet we
15:29we are so ingrained in punishment
15:32because it's our it's our culture and it
15:34it stems from our past you know this is
15:36the way we was treated before uh uh uh
15:39we got any kind of Rights in this
15:41country and we're still being treated
15:42like that now that's you know there
15:44that's not much difference this is
15:46modern day slavery can you talk about
15:49why it was there were several people who
15:51would have testified that you were at
15:53your mother's house the night of these
15:55brutal murders why didn't they testify
15:59well they were threatened they were
16:00threatened by the prosecutor that if
16:02they came forward then it was highly
16:04likely he would seek an indictment of
16:05capital murder against them so I mean
16:07they were actually at the trial to
16:09testify and uh he threatened them and
16:12when my brother testified to my
16:14whereabouts because he was at home and
16:16my sister was there well he made it look
16:18like my family were alive to me you know
16:20and he was speaking to basically an allh
16:21jury saying that you know basically you
16:24know his brother was protected which my
16:26brother was uh just being honest you
16:28know because my brother would not
16:29protect the murderer but my brother was
16:31trying to tell them the truth but the
16:33prosecutor he manipulated every aspect
16:35of the case for a conviction you know
16:38and that's how I end up losing my
16:39freedom I had a a prosecutor that seek a
16:42conviction and it's sad because you know
16:45that's the culture you know we we we
16:48elect them and they feel that this whole
16:50notion of being tough on crime is what's
16:52going to keep them in office so they
16:53start taking shortcuts and become
16:55blindsided and as a result those without
16:57the resources in end up losing their
16:59freedom for crimes that did not commit
17:01and that happened to me and how were you
17:03able All Those Years day after day month
17:06after month in solitary to hold it
17:09together to keep maintaining your
17:11innocence uh and then of course when uh
17:14your reaction when you you heard the
17:16news uh that you've been
17:20exonerated well you know it wasn't no
17:22magic pill or nothing I just knew that
17:24when I got down there you know I knew
17:26that I was a I wasn't a murderer and
17:28that I was a father I was a son I was a
17:32brother you know I was many things and
17:34but I was not a murderer and uh so I
17:37said to myself you know they have taken
17:39my freedom but the things that they
17:41can't take from me I'm not going to give
17:42them and they couldn't take my dignity
17:44they couldn't take who I was as a man
17:47and I was not going to allow them to
17:48Define Me by their labels I knew I was
17:51Anthony Graves and I was not a murderer
17:53I was my mother's child someone that
17:55they kidnapped and put on death row and
17:57tried to murder so so I I was defiant in
18:00not giving something that they couldn't
18:02take from me and that kept me S 18 years
18:05Anthony When You released your mom did
18:08not know what was your first act when
18:10you got out of
18:12jail well you know my mother and I when
18:15I was able to talk to on the phone
18:17because I was I was also in isolation
18:20for 4 years when I got back to the local
18:22County Jail uh imagine why but uh we
18:25would talk on the phone I would always
18:27ask her what she was cooking and so when
18:29uh I was released she didn't know you
18:31know no one knew and uh they was asking
18:35me about you know do your mom though and
18:37I said no she doesn't and and they was
18:39like well call your mom and of course
18:40they put cell phones in my face and I
18:42didn't know anything about a cell phone
18:43you know 18 years right so uh went I
18:47there called my mom and and and she
18:49answered the phone you know and uh and I
18:52said uh mom and of course she was like
18:55what and I said uh what you cooking
18:58and uh she said why and I said um you
19:03know your son coming home and you know
19:06it was an emotional moment but at the
19:08same time what I was saying to her was
19:09that we are both now off of death throat
19:12we can now live again you know and
19:15that's what I was saying to her when I
19:17was told her I was coming home because
19:19she done 18 and A2 Years with me my
19:22children done 18 and 1/2 Years with me
19:24my siblings and everyone that love me
19:26this thing has a ripple effect it
19:28affected my family and they'll have
19:29memories of this here for the rest of
19:32their life and I just say you know is it
19:34worth it you know you put you put a
19:36whole family on death row you created
19:38another set of victims you know and and
19:40is it worth it I I don't think so I I
19:43don't think my mother would think so
19:44either you know my children can never
19:46get back there father you know uh I can
19:49never raise them and so it's not worth
19:52it and and and then on top of that
19:54you're torturing me you know and then my
19:56mother had to come see me and she looks
19:58at me and she can't hold me and she
19:59knows that I'm going through a lot but
20:01all she can do is just stare at her
20:02child and pray that you know someday
20:05that you know justice will prevail and
20:07that we'll stop treating human beings
20:09this way and Anthony Graves that the
20:11state of Texas that they ever apologize
20:13to you or compensate you for the
20:16Injustice uh that was visited on
20:19you well you
20:21know the state they they compensated me
20:24but you can never compensate it
20:26compensate me enough for what you stole
20:27from me uh an apology has never been
20:31official but several people are higher
20:33up in the government has has apologized
20:36to me and and and and I I mean you know
20:39I thank them for that uh you know but a
20:42true apology would to be would be to
20:44really sit down and and and analyze our
20:47system and and realize that we have a
20:49big big problem in our system and that
20:51we're sentencing men uh to death row and
20:55and and just in prison for crimes that
20:57they did not commit because we have
20:59gotten so off track with uh Seeking
21:01Justice because we've placed the
21:03politics over it and I just wish that
21:05you know and and if they're going to be
21:07sincere about an apology then that would
21:09be the way to be sincere about it it's
21:11to really take in consideration that our
21:14system is definitely broken and we need
21:16to reform it we need to fix it because
21:18it it it's for all of us it's not just
21:21for those it's for all of us because the
21:23minute you start thinking that it
21:24doesn't affect you next thing you know
21:26your neighbor is going to jail for
21:27something he didn't do and you realize
21:29that you know it's just right next door
21:31to you when does it come to you next
21:33then that's when you start to realize
21:34that it it it's part of us all and we
21:37all have a part in this year I'm talking
21:39about from the voters you know to the
21:41judge to the jury we all have a part in
21:43this year and if it's going to work we
21:45all have to play our hand the the I mean
21:47the citizens of the of our nation we
21:49have to hold those that we elect
21:50accountable we definitely have we have
21:52to start being overseers because our
21:54system has gotten way off track and it
21:56threatens all of us now
21:59I say to
22:00you what do you
22:02say no I I just tell people that you
22:05know use your vote as your voice and say
22:08you know you know they they're killing
22:10in your name and I say to you stand up
22:13and tell these people not in my name
22:14anymore not in my name anymore I want a
22:17system that works for all of us you
22:20demand that thank you so much for being
22:22with us former Texas death throw
22:25prisoner testified Tuesday at the first
22:28first ever Congressional hearing on
22:30solitary confinement in US prisons uh he
22:33was exonerated after 18 years in prison
22:38most of that time on death row in
22:41solitary confinement this is democracy
22:43Now democracynow.org The War and Peace
22:46report when we come
22:53back

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