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Free to Choose (1980) (8/10) - Who Protects The Worker — Transcript

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0:00hello I'm Robert McKenzie and welcome
0:02again to the fine old Harper Library in
0:05the University of Chicago a group of
0:07guests have come together to see and to
0:08discuss the latest film by Milton
0:11Friedman in his series free to choose in
0:13this he examines the working of the
0:15labor market and the role of labor
0:16unions and again comes up with some
0:19controversial views in answer to the
0:21question who protects the worker
0:26[Music]
1:07people who earn their living in a modern
1:10heavy industry seldom engage in the kind
1:12of back-breaking toil that was the
1:15everyday lot of most workers a century
1:16ago and yet they earn far more
1:21what has produced these improvements
1:25the offend reaction of most people is
1:28likely to be that labor unions are
1:30largely responsible for the enormous
1:33progress that workers have made in the
1:35past two centuries but clearly at least
1:37for the United States that cannot be
1:39true after all in the 19th century when
1:43workers did very well there were hardly
1:45any labor unions at all and even today
1:47no more than one out of four or five
1:50workers is a member of a trade union and
1:52the remainder do very well indeed
1:55achieving the highest level of living in
1:57the world
1:58labor unions do of course benefit their
2:01members but far from being a key to the
2:04development of the modern society they
2:07are a throwback to an earlier
2:09pre-industrial era to the agreements
2:12among craftsmen in the Middle Ages or to
2:15go back even earlier more than two
2:17thousand years ago to the agreement
2:20among medical men in Greece from the
2:26tiny Greek island of Kos the coast of
2:28Asia Minor is four miles away in the
2:30mist
2:332,500 years ago a hospital and medical
2:36school flourished on costs the great
2:38Hippocrates the founder of modern
2:40medicine worked there legend has it that
2:48Hippocrates taught his students in the
2:50shade of this plain tree he welcomed
2:52anyone who wanted to learn so long as
2:54they paid his fees there's another
2:57legend that st. Paul stood here and
2:59preached the gospel of Christianity what
3:11isn't legend is that Hippocrates and his
3:13followers started medicine on the road
3:15forward to becoming a science when
3:22Hippocrates died at the age of 104 or so
3:25legend has it this island was full of
3:28medical people his students and
3:30disciples competition for custom was
3:32fierce some 20 years after he died they
3:36got together and constructed a code of
3:38conduct they named it the Hippocratic
3:41oath after their old teacher and master
3:45every new physician before he could
3:48start practice came to this spot back
3:52here in front of those columns and took
3:55the oath the oath was full of fine
3:58ideals for protecting the patient but it
4:01also had a couple of other things in it
4:03listen to this one I will import a
4:08knowledge of the art to my own sons and
4:10those of my teachers and two disciples
4:13bound by a stipulation and oath
4:15according to the law of Medicine but to
4:19none others today we'd call that a
4:22closed shop or listen to this one
4:26referring to patients suffering from the
4:28agonizing disease of kidney or bladder
4:30stones I will not cut persons laboring
4:35under the stone but will leave this to
4:37be done by men who are practitioners of
4:40this work a nice market sharing
4:44agreement between physicians and
4:46surgeons Hippocrates must turn in his
4:49grave when a new class of medical men
4:51takes that oath after all he taught
4:54anyone provided only they paid his
4:57tuition he would strongly have objected
5:00to the kind of restrictive practices
5:02that physicians all over the world have
5:05adopted to protect their custom in the
5:10United States the American Medical
5:12Association has for decades been one of
5:14the strongest labor unions in the
5:16country keeping down the number of
5:18physicians keeping up the costs of
5:21medical care preventing competition by
5:24people from outside the profession with
5:26those in it all of course in the name of
5:30helping the patient
5:44I've got a support record without
5:46warning any one of us may suddenly need
5:49medical care if we do we want the very
5:55best care we can get but who can give us
5:57that cure is it always a graduate of an
6:04expensive medical school who has a Union
6:06fart call to medical license or might it
6:10be someone like this a trained paramedic
6:13working for a private enterprise
6:14organization rendering emergency care
6:17and hopefully will get a very good
6:19contract out of that many such
6:23businesses provide primary care for
6:25emergency cases in the United States
6:27this particular paramedic team is
6:29attached to a fire department in
6:31Southern California they're good at
6:33their job but it's not unusual to find
6:36local physicians objecting they take a
6:41Hippocratic oath here in the United
6:44States and they believe that they should
6:47be the one that is treating their
6:49patient they should be the one that
6:50saves that patient's life and if someone
6:52else does it it just kind of interferes
6:54with everything that they've been taught
7:03[Music]
7:06but why should medical care be a
7:09monopoly of licensed physicians
7:11shouldn't anyone who is capable of
7:13providing effective help be free to do
7:15so
7:22you can be sure that no way they'll be
7:25able to stay in this business very long
7:27unless he can demonstrate by performance
7:30that he's doing a good job Joe dolphin
7:34knows that very well we've taken some
7:37statistical samples of the kind of
7:39effectiveness paramedics have in
7:41California give you an example that one
7:45district of California that we serve
7:46which is a county which is populated to
7:49the extent of five hundred and eighty
7:50thousand people before the introduction
7:52of paramedics less than 1% the patient's
7:56had suffered a cardiac arrest where
7:58their heart stopped lived through their
8:00hospital stay and were released from the
8:02hospital where the introduction of
8:04paramedics just in the first six months
8:05of operation twenty-three percent of the
8:08people whose heart stops are
8:10successfully resuscitated and are
8:12released from the hospital and go back
8:14to productive work in society do you
8:17think that's pretty amazing next request
8:19that we think the facts speak for
8:20themselves
8:21however relating that to the medical
8:25community is sometimes very difficult
8:26they have ideas of their own how you
8:33reading this
8:41disputes between Union and non-union
8:43workers are not always as high-minded as
8:46between organized medicine and Joe
8:48dolphin one day in 1978 workers at a
8:53coal loading dock on the Ohio River in
8:55southern Indiana continued to work after
8:59the Mine Workers Union had called a
9:00strike that night a crowd of armed Union
9:05men invaded the site and then they fired
9:11a little building setting here after
9:13they fired mr. T Gordon's car here and
9:16through another firebomb into the
9:20trailer
9:21others would had run on back and we're
9:23firing trucks and shooting holes through
9:26tires with handguns I'd gone back beyond
9:31the loading dock here standing back in
9:35there and could hear them shooting in
9:37the air escaping from truck tires
9:39there's so many people moving around and
9:41doing so much damage and setting so many
9:44things on fire a whole lot of things
9:46going on at one time we should have been
9:49heavily armed and shot these people did
9:52something to stop such destruction I
9:55wouldn't have believed that a rabble
9:57rouser could have gathered together that
10:00many err responsible people to come onto
10:03a person's property and do this kind of
10:05destruction until I'd finally seen it
10:07done
10:09[Music]
10:12these workers are on the other side of
10:15the Union fence they're building to
10:19Social Security offices in Baltimore on
10:22this government project everyone's a
10:24union workers they rely on their union
10:27to protect them against competition from
10:29non-union labor but some local
10:32contractors see a very different side to
10:35a closed shop we don't feel that anybody
10:38should be denied a choice and we feel
10:40every man should have the choice if he
10:42wants to be unionized or not not
10:44legislated not saying he must belong to
10:47a union we feel when you tell a man he
10:49must belong to a union or he must do
10:52this or that you're taking freedoms away
10:54from this man the freedom of choice of
10:56this businessman here to choose me to do
10:59business with me all business needs us
11:01right to choose to do business with each
11:03other and by the same token our
11:05employees have the right to choose
11:07whether they want unionization or not
11:10on this government site authorized
11:13personnel only really means unionized
11:17personnel only
11:24unions have long recognized that the
11:27surest and most effective way for them
11:29to get power without violence is to have
11:32the federal government on their side
11:34that's why so many strong unions have
11:37made it a point to locate their
11:39headquarters close to the source of
11:41power the heads of the trade unions at
11:47cluster near Capitol Hill know this
11:49place very well it is the room assigned
11:51to the Committee on education and labor
11:54of the House of Representatives and it
11:56is where much of our labor legislation
11:58is discussed and shaped before
12:01presentation to Congress / I know rooms
12:05like this myself very well because I've
12:07often testified before congressional
12:10committees and they only meet in rooms
12:12like this up there on the podium is
12:14where the members of the House or of the
12:18Senate sit of course behind them there
12:20will be clustered a bunch of aides as
12:22you know there are something like 30 to
12:2440 aides for every single member of the
12:27House and the Senate and very often in
12:30one of these committee rooms
12:31there'll be almost nothing but aides
12:33around when I've sat in the bear pit
12:36over here where the witness is said to
12:39testify I've sometimes thought that
12:40maybe the whole thing was a show being
12:43conducted by and for the aides with an
12:46occasional member of the house tour
12:48senator dropping by to see what the show
12:51was all about this is a room in which
12:55hearings were held on the most recent
12:57increase in the minimum wage for example
13:01who do you suppose testified here in
13:04favor of a higher minimum wage rate do
13:08you suppose it was representatives of
13:10the poor people for supposedly being
13:13helped by the bill but not a bit of it
13:15the major people testifying for it were
13:19representatives of the American
13:21Federation of Labor the AF of l-cio the
13:25major organization of trade unions in
13:28this country there's hardly a member of
13:31one of their trade unions who works for
13:33a wage anywhere close
13:35minimum wage despite all the rhetoric
13:37about helping the poor they were in
13:40favor of a higher minimum wage for a
13:42very different reason because it would
13:44protect the members of their unions from
13:48competition from the lower and lesser
13:51skilled people to see the effects of
14:01minimum wage laws in action go to a
14:03place like this where they sell quick
14:06and inexpensive food you don't need much
14:08training to start work on this job it
14:11used to be a traditional training ground
14:13for the unskilled not any longer
14:16thanks to the minimum wage laws when the
14:21workers point of view the people that it
14:23was supposed to help the people in some
14:25cases it's hurting the most such as
14:28minorities unskilled labor and young
14:30people a businessman especially a small
14:33businessman cannot afford to bring in
14:35these people at the highway at the heart
14:38wage they are willing however to take
14:41apprentices and to train them it's very
14:44difficult to do now under the minimum
14:46wage laws the people who are
14:49discriminated against most by a high
14:51minimum wage rate as a people with low
14:53skills which includes a disproportionate
14:56number of Negroes indeed I have for long
15:00believed that the minimum wage rate was
15:03the most anti-negro piece of legislation
15:05on our statute books not by intention
15:08but through its results
15:12thank you
15:17the more they get paid the better people
15:20can live whether they're paid in cash or
15:22in kind the staff restaurant in the
15:27Department of Housing and Urban
15:28Development in Washington DC these
15:31people are eating subsidized food like
15:34all civil service federal workers get
15:36extremely generous fringe benefits they
15:40have also had an incredible degree of
15:42security it's been almost impossible to
15:46fire a civil servant in January 1975 a
15:49typist in the Environmental Protection
15:51Agency was so consistently late for work
15:54that her supervisors demanded she be
15:57fired how it took 19 months to do it and
16:00this incredible 21 foot long chart lists
16:04the steps that had to be gone through to
16:06satisfy all the rules and all the
16:08management and union agreements this is
16:11really a typical horror stories what a
16:12monster it shows the number of steps you
16:16gotta go through the process involved
16:18the girl supervisor his deputy director
16:22his director his director of personnel
16:24operations the agency's branch chief an
16:27Employee Relations Specialist a second
16:30employee relations specialists a special
16:33office of investigations and the
16:35director of the office of investigations
16:37this veritable telephone directory need
16:40I add was paid with taxpayers money who
16:45could invent a better protected job than
16:47this one before it came to it sends a
16:51twist the decision has to be made within
16:52the agency half an hour's drive out of
16:56Washington you come to Montgomery County
16:59where many very senior civil servants
17:01live it has a highest average family
17:04income of any county in the United
17:06States of the people who live here who
17:08are employed one out of every four works
17:11for the federal government
17:12like all civil servants they have job
17:15security salaries linked to the cost of
17:17living a fine retirement plan also
17:20linked to the cost of living
17:21and many manage to qualify for Social
17:24Security as well becoming double dippers
17:26many of their neighbors are also here
17:29because of the federal government
17:30congressman lobbyists top executives of
17:33corporations with government contracts
17:38as government expands so does this
17:41neighborhood
17:49government protects its workers just as
17:52trade unions protect their members but
17:55both do it at someone else's expense it
17:58doesn't have to be that way
18:04[Music]
18:07dick passionately is an electronics
18:09engineer he designs memory systems for
18:12computers
18:13he works for Intel Corporation one of
18:16many companies which have sprung up
18:18south of San Francisco in a place that
18:20they call Silicon Valley all these
18:23companies have one thing in common
18:24they're trying to get engineers to work
18:27on their projects you know myself I'm
18:29one of these engineers and so obviously
18:31I get I get letters in the mail phone
18:34calls the like where people are are
18:37trying to get me to leave Intel and go
18:40to this particular company one of the
18:42companies right across the street here
18:44intersil is one of the new companies
18:46that's forming in this area and they're
18:51hunting for people just like myself to
18:53come in and what they do is they'll
18:55offer you like typically a 30% higher
18:58salary stock options a bonus and several
19:03other things to get you to move to their
19:05company and since it's not really a move
19:07it's very easy to do because you're only
19:09going across the street it's not a big
19:12traumatic thing where you're leaving
19:14let's say one city and moving to
19:16it's very very straightforward in a free
19:22labor market everybody benefits when the
19:24market is restricted things are very
19:26different those Mexicans are heading for
19:29the United States side of the border
19:31there are real problems about permitting
19:34unrestricted immigration into a welfare
19:36state it's one thing when people come
19:39for jobs and are on their own it was a
19:41case for most of American history it's
19:44another thing when a welfare system will
19:46support them come what may at the
19:48expense of other people yet look what
19:51happens when you try to interfere with
19:53market forces well there's several
19:56fairly large groups of aliens on the
19:59hillsides waiting toward the dark to set
20:01in other groups that are still on the
20:04Mexican side of the border
20:06they'll be coming in shortly I imagine
20:12we have electronic sensors buried in
20:15along the hill sites along the most
20:17travel trails to alert us when there's
20:19alien crossings and from the sensor we
20:22work ahead of them try to head them off
20:27now they write on the Panthers welcome
20:29he sent for okay well I say
20:50[Music]
20:54this is not a case of good guys against
20:57bad guys
20:58the officers are simply trying to do
21:00their duty the poor Mexicans are driven
21:03by hunger and attracted by the prospect
21:05of jobs you do good work the law
21:09enforcing people have an impossible job
21:15they're gonna run they're gonna get
21:17picked up sent back but sooner or later
21:18they're gonna make it time in one minute
21:20after the next you know
21:24in one month in 1978 60,000 illegal
21:29immigrants were arrested on this stretch
21:31of the border but believe it or not the
21:34Border Patrol estimated the nearly 200
21:36thousand found their way through to
21:38places like this in Northern California
21:40where there was work waiting for them
21:50illegal Mexican immigrants are not cheap
21:52labor around here
21:53many earn more than the minimum wage law
21:55demands they can do so because farmers
21:59need many extra hands during the harvest
22:01season and there's a shortage of
22:03domestic labor available
22:06Jill hanim and her partner run a farm
22:09that produces plump California Raisins
22:12converts pending legislation which would
22:15make it illegal for farmers to hire
22:17undocumented workers and supposedly
22:20would impose a thousand dollar fine per
22:22worker on on a farmer I can't imagine
22:26that it would actually go through if it
22:28did there'd be a full-scale farmer's
22:30revolt matter of fact last year there
22:35was quite a bit of activity in the
22:37Kerman area which is about 15 miles west
22:40of Fresno many of the farmers have
22:43banded together and as much as warned
22:46the Border Patrol to stay off their
22:48property and they were willing to back
22:51that up with guns I'm afraid they were
22:54very upset about it and because their
22:57situation was desperate they needed the
22:58workers and they need the work to be
23:01done now and the Border Patrol was
23:04interfering with that as they saw it
23:06violence by employers to assure the
23:09availability of workers is no more
23:11justifiable than violence by trade
23:14unions to assure their members jobs but
23:17violence is one of the things you are
23:18very likely to get when you try to
23:21prevent a deal between people who have
23:22jobs to offer and people who are looking
23:25for jobs
23:26fifteen years ago the economy of
23:29Spartanburg South Carolina was stagnant
23:32it depended on peaches and cotton wages
23:35were lower than the national average and
23:37unemployment was higher than the average
23:43then dramatically the picture change the
23:47people in Spartanburg decided to make
23:50their town a center of free trade
23:55they did this by using a new
23:57right-to-work law eliminating many
23:59restrictions on labor the City Council
24:02cut taxes to the bone they advertised
24:05the fact that Spartanburg was a place
24:07worth investing in by any standards let
24:12alone Spartanburg the result was
24:15revolutionary industrialists came from
24:19Germany Switzerland all over the world
24:21to build factories to set up plants the
24:26workers of Spartanburg clearly benefited
24:28from the new industries the first to
24:31notice were the people who loaned and
24:33ran the traditional industries in terms
24:39of the business it has been a problem
24:41for us it means that we've got to be on
24:44our toes we've got to be sure that we
24:46are providing a good workplace if we are
24:50providing good jobs and what happened
24:52that we are running as competitively as
24:55possible I think that from the workers
24:57point of view this has certainly
24:59provided them with more opportunities to
25:02market for their product yeah their
25:04labor their expertise
25:09suddenly in a free market workers who
25:12once could not find jobs we're now at a
25:15premium everyone benefited workers and
25:19employers alike in the town thrive
25:22[Music]
25:31one of the workers who arrived in
25:33Spartanburg with mr. Schumer he came as
25:37a refugee from Idi Amin's Uganda we came
25:43in this country just with a 139 dollars
25:46I had a family my wife and two kids and
25:49as soon as and we came with only four
25:53beds of clothing which weighs about 40
25:57pounds each bag we were not allowed to
25:59get more than that we have to leave all
26:01opposition all our property in the
26:04agonda and myself I just came down to
26:09flowers baking company and I was hired
26:12as a laborer to work in the plant at
26:16$2.49 per hour five years later he was
26:23chief accountant of the company in a
26:25free market his best protection his real
26:28wealth turned out to be his skills and
26:31his desire to use them America has to
26:35offer me a lot of things and this is a
26:39great country I came in this country
26:42penniless today I own a house I own
26:45three cars my wife has got a good job I
26:48myself referred a good job and the
26:51children are schooling and everything
26:54has been working so fine I believe this
26:57is because of the opportunity this is
27:00whoever wants to work in this country
27:01there's a lot of opportunity
27:10when unions get higher wages for their
27:13members by restricting entry into an
27:15occupation those higher wages are at the
27:18expense of other workers who find their
27:19opportunities reduced when government
27:22pays its employees higher wages those
27:25higher wages are at the expense of the
27:27taxpayer but when workers get higher
27:29wages and more civilized working
27:31conditions through the free market when
27:35they get them by firms competing with
27:37one another for the best workers by
27:39workers competing with one another for
27:41the best jobs those higher wages are at
27:44nobody's expense they can only come from
27:46higher productivity greater capital
27:49investment more widely diffused skills
27:51the whole pie is bigger there's more for
27:55the worker but there's also more for the
27:57employer the investor the consumer and
28:00even the tax payer that's the way a
28:03free-market system distributes the
28:05fruits of economic progress among all
28:08the people that's the essence of the age
28:11of the worker
28:19[Music]
28:23the discussion is already underway here
28:26at the University of Chicago so let's
28:28join it well we tried a free-market
28:30system without labor unions we tried it
28:33back in the 1920s and into the 30s and
28:36it led the world into the biggest
28:37economic disaster its ever seen in
28:39modern times now I don't think we're
28:41talking free-market or labor unions
28:44we're talking free-market with or
28:45without labor unions and a free market
28:48system without labor unions is a total
28:50disaster
28:51let's get other reactions to this now
28:53around the group it's the free market
28:55system Milton Friedman has been arguing
28:57I think not labor unions which best
28:59protect the interests to serve the
29:01interests of the worker Walter Williams
29:02your reaction well I think clearly labor
29:05unions serve the best interests of
29:07workers who happen to be members of
29:09labor unions at the expense of workers
29:12who are excluded from being members of
29:15labor unions are you screen I don't
29:18think you can have a democratic society
29:19without having trade unions I think if
29:22you look at any democratic country is
29:23essential to it right of workers to
29:25organize and I think it's consistent if
29:28we had to maintain a democratic country
29:31those freedoms that the right of workers
29:33to organize is is a primary objective
29:35that we have to maintain Bill Brady well
29:37if they are so vital why are so many
29:40union members leaving the unions why are
29:44they why are they losing so many
29:47decertification why are the unions
29:48losing so many decertification elections
29:52why has the number of union members
29:55declined so precipitously from 23% of
30:00the labor force to what is it now less
30:02than 19 18 percent
30:04well defensives figures you're reading
30:06but workers aren't leaving the labor
30:08movement in droves and where the union
30:10is not declining precipitously my Union
30:14the United Steel Workers of America the
30:15major unions in the country many small
30:17ones are out organize
30:18and growing the mix of work the mix of
30:21work in the society is changing we have
30:23some employers as we saw in the film who
30:26can't wait to rush off to the south and
30:28try to get in an anti-union environment
30:30and invest their money and prosperity in
30:32the south instead of in the north and
30:34surely if you invest money anywhere
30:35you're going to have prosperity so we
30:37also have a mix in terms of civil
30:39service and service workers where we
30:42have employers who have rumbled on that
30:43- I don't know that if you invest money
30:47anywhere that you're going to have
30:48prosperity I don't think that that's a
30:51given you seem to me to be dealing in a
30:54and a and a premise there that isn't
30:56that is incorrect the key question for
31:01discussion is who protects the worker is
31:03it the labor union or the free market
31:06that best serves his interest well it
31:09seems like from evidence that I have
31:11from a number of research projects I've
31:14engaged and I found that labor unions
31:17protect their members often at the
31:19expense of disadvantaged people and and
31:21it's a very interesting question that
31:24labor unions down through the ages have
31:26discriminated against all kinds of
31:28people in favour of workers we find that
31:34labor unions have gone out on strikes
31:36and have murdered and main people
31:38because other people sought entry in
31:41terms of mr. greens remark he says that
31:43in the free democratic society we need
31:45labor unions yes that is true we need
31:47the right for voluntary association that
31:49is people have the right to form
31:52associations but it should not be a
31:54requirement that you be a member of
31:56labor union in order to establish a
31:58contract for employment can't can't we
32:00get something can't we get some
32:01perspective in this Walter talking about
32:04unions down through the ages makes no
32:06sense at all in terms of where we're at
32:08now in this century at this time this
32:11business of trying to relate where
32:12unions come from to the to the medical
32:15profession and Hippocratic oaths
32:16hypocritical so hypocritical oaths
32:18however one looks at that back in the
32:20Greek islands really has very little
32:22relevance yes it does the violence you
32:24hear me out a minute
32:25way to go you can leave okay the
32:27violence it's associated well not so
32:29patiently but I waited the violence
32:31associated with the labor movement and
32:33so on has been minimal and was a
32:35reaction in this century not over the
32:38ages a reaction in this century the
32:40violence done workers by corporations
32:43and powerful economic groups when there
32:45was no workers organization to protect
32:47them and no way to deal with their greed
32:49and with the day no no I'm trying to
32:51Milton because he's heard the flavor of
32:53the discussion what well then will you
32:55miss now is now saying it's out or
32:57nonsense there's no other no two ways
32:59about it the conditions of the worker in
33:02this country before there were labor
33:04unions were very important improved very
33:06greatly you cannot tell me that millions
33:08of people my parents your parents for
33:09all I know parents and many people
33:11around came to this country from Europe
33:13in order to be exploited and in order to
33:15be subject subjected to violence of
33:18course you were instantly with that
33:19dominantly
33:20I mean most of the blacks came to this
33:21country not voluntarily the plate was
33:23shipped here black and the interesting
33:25thing about you for sure the blacks are
33:33an exception and I agree with you
33:34complete to millions there are they are
33:36very important exception but there are
33:39also millions and millions of people
33:41that mr. Williams represents are not
33:43mostly black they are mostly from the
33:45Slavic countries that came from if you
33:47look at the membership still work if we
33:49go back then a violet there was violence
33:52of course there always has been violence
33:54it's not excusable I'm not excusing
33:56violence on the part of anybody but I
33:59agree with mr. green and with Walter
34:01Williams that people should be free to
34:04organize of course they should be free
34:05to organize what I object to is the
34:08special privileges that have been given
34:10by government to labor unions which are
34:14not available to other groups at all
34:15when labor unions have used violence in
34:18industrial disputes they are not
34:20subjected to the same sanctions as
34:23people ordinarily are when cars are
34:25turned over in the course of a labor
34:26dispute how often do people go to jail
34:28as a result of it dr. Friedman and
34:30Walter Williams go back in history and
34:32they take a look at a situation where
34:34America was empty where we didn't have
34:36anything like the sophisticated in dust
34:38economy we have today but had a much
34:40more agricultural and rural kind of
34:42economy and of course when they when the
34:45impoverished peasants of Europe my
34:47ancestors and most of our ancestors
34:49except for the slaves which is another
34:51situation but when these people came
34:53from Europe and came to a wide-open
34:54continent with the most fertile soil
34:56then available to anyone in the world
34:58naturally there was progress and I or
35:00any of us would be mad to deny progress
35:02but as that developed and as population
35:06increased and as we moved into a much
35:07more sophisticated industrial economy we
35:10moved then into the situation in the
35:121930s or earlier than that at the end of
35:14the century as some of the more skilled
35:16jobs came along the labor movement then
35:18didn't happen by accident didn't happen
35:20because there wasn't a need there the
35:22results of this development even with
35:24all the wealth available in America the
35:26results of this development was that
35:29many working people were not having
35:30anything like by standards of
35:33civilization or whatever anything like
35:36their fair share in this progress now
35:39you're arguing that in a free market for
35:41labor everyone benefits does that mean
35:44that you would favor abolition of all
35:46immigration restrictions the situation
35:49of immigration restrictions really has
35:50to do with the question of a welfare
35:53state as I say in the film I would favor
35:57completely free immigration in a society
36:00which does not have a welfare system
36:02with the welfare system of the kind we
36:04have you have the problem that people
36:06have immigrated in order to get welfare
36:08not in order to get employment you know
36:10it's a very interesting thing if you had
36:12asked anybody before 1914 the u.s. had
36:16no immigration restrictions whatsoever
36:17I'm exaggerating a little bit there were
36:19some immigration restrictions on
36:21Orientals but it was essentially mainly
36:23free if you ask anybody any American
36:25economic historian was that a good thing
36:27for America everybody will say yes it
36:30was a wonderful thing for America that
36:31we had free immigration if you ask
36:33anybody today should we have free
36:34immigration today everybody will almost
36:37everybody will say no what's the
36:38difference I think there's only one
36:40difference and that is that when we had
36:43free immigration was immigration for
36:44jobs in which everybody benefited the
36:46people who are already here benefited
36:48because they got complimentary workers
36:51workers who could work with
36:52to make their productivity better enable
36:54them to develop and use the resources of
36:57the country better but today if you have
36:59a system under which you have
37:01essentially a governmental guarantee of
37:03relief in case of distress you have a
37:06very very real presence is true every
37:09today under current circumstances you
37:12cannot unfortunately have free
37:14immigration not because there's anything
37:16wrong with free immigration but because
37:18we have other policies which make it
37:21impossible to to adopt free images I
37:24like to other reactions is it it's all
37:26feasible to open the door of the labor
37:29market internationally now Bill Brady I
37:31would I would say yes providing they
37:33opened the door to us I think that the
37:35door to not only the the labor market
37:38the door to all markets should be should
37:41be open that is the product markets my
37:43feelings about the undocumented workers
37:46and mexican-americans are inscribed at
37:48the foot of the Statute of Liberty I
37:50think that people should have the right
37:52to come this country now those who would
37:55say you know I hear a number of people
37:57saying that well the immigrants are
37:59contributing to our unemployment problem
38:01and I pointed this out to some people I
38:03said look you know this is the same
38:05rhetoric that the Irish use when the
38:06blacks are coming up from the north you
38:07know they're using blacks as scapegoats
38:09they're saying get those people back
38:11where they came from so that our because
38:12our members can get jobs you know unions
38:15where as well doing this you know they
38:16call them scabs strike breakers etc etc
38:18so I do not wish for mexican-americans
38:23to become the new scapegoats of our
38:25particular national problems they are
38:26not the problem and we and our nation
38:28benefits to the extent that these people
38:30come here and work and to that extent to
38:33that extent so it's kind of good for
38:34them to remain illegal aliens as opposed
38:38to being legal aliens where they're
38:40subject to our welfare program so that
38:42we don't want to come here I think that
38:45this country cannot have a group of
38:47workers to remain outside the framework
38:48of our laws and our protections and as
38:52long as we have workers who are
38:55attracted to the United States because
38:56the standard of living and I think
38:59minimum wages pay a part in that as part
39:02of that attraction but it seems to me to
39:04have undocumented workers
39:06without providing either a means of
39:09protection for them and it seems to me
39:11we've got to go to a question of
39:13providing the amnesty for those those
39:17generations of workers who have come
39:20here over a period of time now two three
39:22maybe four generations we have to see
39:25that they have the same rights and
39:27protection of all other workers and as
39:30it stands now large numbers of them live
39:32outside the framework of of the laws and
39:34statutes that we have on our books they
39:38doing the tragedy of the situation is
39:40what Walter Williams points out that as
39:42long as they are undocumented and
39:44illegal there a clear net gain the
39:46nation benefits and they benefit they
39:48wouldn't be here if they didn't the
39:51tragedy is that we've adopted all these
39:53other policies so that if we convert
39:55them into legal residence it's no longer
39:57clear that we benefit they may benefit
39:59but it's no longer clear that we do what
40:02Lynn Williams said before is again a
40:04travesty on what was actually going on
40:05the real boost to the UN trade union
40:08movement came after the Great Depression
40:09of the 1930s that Great Depression was
40:12not a failure of capitalism who was not
40:13a failure of the private market system
40:16as we've pointed out on another one of
40:17the programs in this series it was a
40:19failure of government it was not the
40:22case that somehow or other there was a
40:24decline in the conditions of the working
40:26class that produced a great surge of
40:28unionism on the contrary their unions
40:31have never accounted for more than one
40:33of one out of four or one out of five of
40:35American workers the American worker
40:38benefited not out of unions he benefited
40:41in spite of unions he benefited because
40:44there was greater opportunity because
40:46there were people who were willing to
40:47invest their money because there was an
40:49opportunity for people to work to save
40:50to invest that's still the case today
40:53you say we have to provide him with
40:55something or other earnest who are the
40:57way we the people we the people provide
41:03them to protection by seeing that their
41:04safety it's all about the immigrant
41:06population occupational health codes
41:08that protect the environment that they
41:10work in see that they have civil rights
41:12laws that protect their own person see
41:15that they have a civil liberties laws
41:17that protect them further we the people
41:19of
41:20country provide that protection it's so
41:21bad curse if any look look first thing
41:42look let me say the following thing
41:43because there's some basic things you
41:49know labor unions and minimum wages for
41:52that case cannot improve the condition
41:55of the working people of a country we do
41:57it every day because you don't you're
42:03telling the audience you're saying that
42:04you can solve the problems in Bangladesh
42:06you can make them a rich if you sell the
42:08union are so many leave in the Union
42:15there aren't rind off some percentages I
42:22live in a human do you have other
42:25interrogates with and course they pay me
42:31of course I don't have any objection to
42:32that and neither do I the least we got
42:34you a few minutes ago we got you to get
42:36the labor movement up into this century
42:37and I agree with the observation you
42:42made that the industrial union movement
42:44that there was a union movement came out
42:46of the out of the dirty thirties and out
42:47of the depression and grew and that that
42:49was essentially an industrial union
42:51movement but I wonder if I wonder when I
42:54when I hear your commentary on the film
42:56and so on and about unions and
42:57restricting practices and restricting
43:00access to industry and all of this I
43:02really I don't mean it disrespectfully
43:04but I'm being disrespectful I'm sorry I
43:06mean I really wonder if you if you do
43:09understand how the industrial union
43:11movement which is is the more recent
43:13part of the movement how it really
43:14operates we're not telling anybody who
43:16they have to hire let's raise the
43:21question which certainly is dealt with
43:22in the film have minimum wages which is
43:25a form of government intervention serve
43:27the interests of the
43:28and indeed of the working class
43:30generally I know you spent a good deal
43:32of time looking at this Leckie's been on
43:34it too
43:34okay well at least from from standpoint
43:37of teenagers particularly minority
43:39teenagers the minimum wage law has acted
43:41to destroy a number of employment
43:42opportunities for example back in 1948
43:45the black youth between 16 and 18 had an
43:50unemployment rate of 9 point 4 percent
43:52and white youths was ten point four
43:54percent a ten point two percent the
43:56labor force participation rates of
43:58blacks was considerably higher than that
44:00of whites and with each increase in the
44:03minimum wage law we had the dramatic
44:05reversal that we have now and so the
44:08minimum wage law has the effects of
44:09saying that if you cannot produce two
44:11dollars and ninety cents worth of goods
44:13an hour
44:13you don't deserve a job and it's you
44:16can't look just it but my wage you gotta
44:18look at the real you've got it you want
44:21to look at the movement of people you I
44:22mean well we can't do that well you look
44:24at relocation of firms a lot of people
44:26should I say a lot of jobs move out
44:27their suburbs well you find black white
44:29unemployment ratios the same in the
44:31suburbs that you find in cities so it's
44:33the mid story development
44:46differential between black and white
44:48bang the gavel come on Lynn
44:50well you're tell--you're taking one
44:52element years ago in a situation that's
44:54entirely different than we're in today
44:56and drawing some conclusions that's
44:58worth a bit no there are many other
44:59things are different you know I must
45:01move on to black people in this country
45:02between 1948 and now you can't just wipe
45:05that out you have you certainly can't
45:08say that's the minimum wage but you know
45:11this case Bay has the minimum wage
45:14served the interests of the working I
45:17don't know this question I don't think
45:19is any question the working people of
45:21this country would be much worse off
45:23than they are today the youth of this
45:25country would be much worse off than
45:27they are today if we didn't have minimum
45:29O'Grady
45:32good idea or not it's a bad idea it is
45:36patently one one of the one of the worst
45:38things that we can do to our youth we
45:41prevent them from how many kids do you
45:44have
46:09the florist Milton I was saying that
46:12there's not a single one I suspect of
46:14the of the members of your Union who is
46:17affected by them you say that you are a
46:21public service or deny say where are
46:22people's organs if you're an
46:23organization of your workers and if you
46:25aren't representing the interests of
46:26your workers they ought to fire you and
46:28we're if you tell us that you are going
46:30against the interests of your workers
46:32then you are simultaneously saving your
46:34work your sophistry I'm saying the
46:42interest of our workers our union
46:44represents a lot of people right and
46:46some people are the ones that you're
46:47probably aware of the people who work in
46:49big steel mills and all the rest of it
46:51but we also go out and organize workers
46:53all the time and win certification votes
46:56despite bill Brady's comment about that
46:58and many of the workers we organize our
47:00workers who are affected by minimum wage
47:08the point is is that I think that both
47:11these gentlemen we all should recognize
47:13is that unions United States support the
47:16minimum wage they are the major support
47:18since they spend millions and millions
47:19of dollars in lobbying for them in a
47:20wage law now they do they do it and they
47:22do it out the name of concern and being
47:25in the inches of people now in South
47:27Africa the unions are far more honest
47:29that is those white races unions over
47:31there they say we support minimum wages
47:34and equal pay for equal work so so as to
47:36protect white jobs that is to protect
47:39like Josh implying low price competition
47:41but he's not applying water that we're
47:43white
47:44I'm saying that it doesn't make any
47:46difference in the membership I'm going
48:19to turn to Milton now are you saying
48:21then that you would advocate the repeal
48:24of minimum wage legislation of course
48:26you would understand Lynn why they want
48:33to restrict a minimum price to labor why
48:37don't you let me have a minimum price on
48:39the products that we manufacture well
48:41we're out here as I understand it to
48:42discuss your problems at the moment the
48:49people I assume are so anxious to have
48:51the free market system and they compete
48:52with each other and all the rest we're
48:54talking about the needs of the workers
48:55we're talking about the needs of the
48:57people who come into a society which
48:59isn't providing enough employment for
49:00them which clearly doesn't seem to be
49:02able to provide enough employment for
49:04them and what are we going to do
49:05and I think this notion that somehow if
49:08we just let every guy who's running a
49:10Hamburg stand or whatever we just let
49:12all these people exploit the young
49:14people of this nation in any way they
49:17chose pay them any little rate they
49:19could get away with that everybody would
49:21then to go to work would everybody then
49:23have a job as absolute nonsense I want
49:25to bring Milton to one of the final
49:27stages of his film which is on
49:29Spartanburg South Carolina and I want to
49:32know what your what conclusion you're
49:34drawing from that would you in effect
49:36like to see the whole of United States
49:38become as it were
49:40Spartanburg writ large absolutely yep
49:43what would that mean and then we'll get
49:45their reaction to it it would mean a
49:47widening of the opportunity for
49:49everybody it would mean an opportunity
49:51for employers all over to compete with
49:54one another for workers you and me an
49:56opportunity for workers to
49:57find jobs which can make the greatest
50:00use of their own skills in their own
50:02capacities it would mean that consumers
50:04would be able to get better products at
50:06lower prices
50:07you know consumers enter into this
50:09situation too you might think that
50:11somehow or other you know one of the
50:13things that's always a mystery to me if
50:15a $2.90 minimum wage benefits people why
50:17wouldn't a six dollar minimum wage be
50:19better wouldn't a $10 minimum wage be
50:21better why don't these people come out
50:23for a $200 a year minimum wage if all
50:25you had to do is to make a country
50:26property you're pretty small $1 a day an
50:29hour or extended the babysitters yeah if
50:31all you need to improve a lot of the
50:34conditions of people is to legislate a
50:35higher what are your wages I want to
50:38know how Spartanburg with partners
50:40improves matters because it introduces a
50:42wider range of competition and the real
50:46thing that protects a worker is the
50:49existence of alternative employers
50:51seeking his services just as what
50:53protects a consumer his alternative
50:55sellers one thing that it would do and
50:57it would result in a very substantial
51:00increase in capital investment
51:01absolutely and and capital is the
51:04workers second best friend this is only
51:09to say that a busy economy one in which
51:13there's investment and development and
51:14so on is an economy that's a good
51:16economy for working people and for
51:18everyone else I think we say that in the
51:20afl-cio at least once a month all the
51:23time there's nothing in which there's
51:25nothing in which we're more interested
51:26than having a busy functioning economy
51:29the question is how to bring that about
51:31I do suggest and I think would I think
51:35can be defended as long as we want to
51:37discuss it that the prosperity we have
51:40in America today that the labor
51:42movements have made it in the nord labor
51:43lumen has made an enormous contribution
51:45to that and in the absence of the labor
51:47movement and in the absence of minimum
51:49wage this would not be as prosperous a
51:52country as it is I want to get a
51:55reaction to that he stated the case for
51:58what the unions achieved
51:59could we go around first of all do you
52:01accept any part of that it's
52:03preposterous you know as I suggested
52:04before I mean if we if we you know if
52:07minimum wages can make people richer
52:09Union
52:09well if unions can make people richer
52:11well you first tell people in Bangladesh
52:13why don't you unionize and demand a
52:15higher wage you can be rich like United
52:16States have higher wages in our country
52:22because they're more productive that's
52:24how you get higher wages and and that's
52:26just plain din to me it's nonsense and
52:28why are some more productive huh because
52:29they have capital enormous capital and
52:36because there are consumers to buy the
52:37stuff who have wages which enable them
52:39to go into the marketplace and buy
52:40something Ernest green what's the
52:48replies you'll buy my initial statement
52:51that it is a prerequisite of a
52:53democratic society to have trade unions
52:56organizations allowing workers to band
52:59together in their mutual interests and
53:01if that if that group I'm saying that
53:04trade unions like a full of Randolph
53:07sleeping car porters the the Pullman car
53:10company would have never on its own
53:12given those workers who worked very hot
53:15were very productive people
53:17well-educated any increase in that wage
53:20has had it not been for the intervention
53:21of Randolph the crucial issue is whether
53:26governmental measures which have the
53:28effect of favoring union organization of
53:31giving them privileges and immunities
53:33that are not accorded to other
53:34organizations in the society benefit to
53:37society as a whole or harm the society
53:39as a whole the proposition I tried to
53:41make in this film was that the source of
53:45the prosperity of this country was
53:47freedom of enterprise freedom of
53:49employers to hire of workers to work for
53:52whom they wanted to that insofar as
53:54unions had played a role
53:56they had protected some workers at the
53:58expense of others and had the
54:01prosperity of this country I think that
54:03Lynne Williams's statements to the
54:05contrary cannot be supported by any
54:07empirical or other evidence that he has
54:09understandably I'm not blaming him for
54:11this he would be faithless to his job if
54:15he did not believe sincerely in what
54:17he's saying I'm not questioning his
54:18sincerity but sincerity is a much
54:20overrated virtue in our society
54:22the plain fact is that there is no
54:26evidence whatsoever that either unions
54:28or minimum wages have made positive
54:30contributions to the prosperity of this
54:32country some unions have of course some
54:35unions have done great harm it's not in
54:38an open-and-shut picture in which you
54:41can make a sweeping statement but on the
54:44whole the growth of this country I do
54:47the sweeping statement I make is that
54:50the prosperity of this country derives
54:52primarily from freedom of enterprise and
54:55freedom to hire to employ to work and
54:58not from restrictive measures imposed by
55:00trade yeah everybody briefly now and I
55:02would say that the intervention of a
55:05strong federal government who those
55:07employers hire the kinds of protection
55:10the wage standards health conditions or
55:14the other requirement of this government
55:17to protect these people because the
55:18history of it as shown that that hasn't
55:21occurred and in your case in Spartanburg
55:24South Carolina again I give it the only
55:27reason that they can come back now and
55:29attract firms from Switzerland and
55:31Germany is because one that we had a
55:33strong government that provided
55:35protection for all of its citizens which
55:37didn't occur 15 years already my opinion
55:41should not be a bridge I think that
55:42these two gentlemen are advocating there
55:43to be a bridge they're advocating a
55:45retention of the minimum wage they're
55:47advocating I think to lynly's navigating
55:49your attention of the other davis-bacon
55:50act they they do not it seems to me
55:54believe that freedoms are interdependent
55:56and indivisible they're our freedoms
55:59they're economic freedom there's press
56:00freedom there's freedoms of assembly
56:02there's religious freedom and you you
56:05are advocating to me a great abridgement
56:08of economic freedom and when you do that
56:10you injure the other freedoms that we
56:13have and if you do it enough as we are
56:14doing in this country today if you do it
56:16enough where you are in danger of losing
56:17all our other freedoms now we leave this
56:19very spirited discussion and I hope
56:21you'll join us again next episode to see
56:23[Music]
56:40next week Milton Friedman focuses on one
56:43of the most disturbing problems in the
56:45world today the problem of inflation
56:48there is a way to deal with it if you
56:51want to find out how to cure inflation
56:53don't miss free to choose next week
56:57[Music]
56:59[Applause]
57:10[Music]
57:44[Music]

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