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Frank McCourt reads from "Angela's Ashes" and discusses his memoirs — Transcript

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0:00This program is made possible in part by
0:02the Maryland Arts Council through the
0:04state of Maryland and the National
0:06Endowment for the Arts and the Howard
0:08County Arts Council through a grant from
0:10Howard County government.
0:42Hello and welcome to the writing life.
0:44My name is Terren Winch and it's my
0:46pleasure today to introduce you to Frank
0:49McCort. Frank McCort made literary
0:52history in 1996 with the publication of
0:55Angela's Ashes, the first of uh three
0:58memoirs that he's published since that
1:00time. Angela's Ashes was a uh is a story
1:04of misery and poverty starting in
1:06Brooklyn and uh moving quickly to to
1:09Limmerch in Ireland uh where Frank spent
1:12his his youth. But the story itself was
1:16uh was made into something uh
1:19transcendent through Frank's amazing
1:22sense of humor and wit. He brought to
1:25this material a uh an attitude and
1:28perspective that that people just hadn't
1:30seen before and hadn't read before. The
1:32book went on to be an incredible success
1:34as have the second two books uh Tis and
1:38Teacher Man. Um, Angela's Ashes became a
1:41major uh Hollywood movie in 1999 and uh
1:45has sold well over six million copies,
1:48has been translated in into many
1:50languages, spent 117 weeks on the
1:52bestseller list. All in all, an
1:54incredible fantasy, Frank, that uh that
1:57you know many people have had, but
1:58you've actually experienced. And I
2:00wonder how that that alchemy of turning
2:04poverty and misery into a fame and and
2:08wealth, how that feels inside you.
2:10Well, it wasn't something I expected. I
2:13I I never wanted to write about growing
2:16up poor in Ireland. I wanted to write a
2:18witty, sophisticated novel like Evelyn
2:21Wall or David Lodge or Graham Green, one
2:24of those smartass Huxley witty
2:28conversation novels. But I and and but
2:31when I was teaching in New York, the
2:32more I talked and the kids would try to
2:35get me off the subject of grammar and
2:37they'd ask me about my life and I would
2:39tell them and then uh that when I
2:42retired from teaching I started writing
2:44Angela's Ashes and I didn't expect the
2:47success. I had I I didn't even have a
2:50publisher. I didn't have an agent. I
2:52thought a former student of mine work
2:54worked for Oxford Press
2:56and I called him and uh I sent him a few
3:00pages and he said he was sorry as your
3:03publish publishers always say this is
3:06not for us
3:06really
3:07this he said he said uh with all due
3:10respect Mr. court. I think this will
3:12appeal to middle-aged middleclass Irish
3:15widows.
3:16Really?
3:17And and good luck, he said. So I
3:19What a bad call.
3:20It was Yeah, but it it I I I moved on.
3:23Then uh when when the book was
3:26published, I didn't expect to be on the
3:28bestseller list. It started in the New
3:30York Times. It had 15 books. It started
3:32at 15 and began to move up and the next
3:35thing Hollywood calls and next thing
3:37it's a movie, which didn't really make
3:39any money. It was a bit too It was a bit
3:42too bleak. But all of this happened to
3:43me and when many things happen to you,
3:47uh, you're in a state of shock. How do
3:50you deal with it?
3:51Yeah.
3:51You're you're you're you're 66 years of
3:53age. Most of your life is behind you. I
3:56suppose you've done your 30 years of
3:58teaching and so on and you've knocked
4:00around a lot and this happens to you and
4:02the next thing um the book was on the
4:06bestseller list. Then you you go to a
4:08bookstore in New York and you you talk
4:11to a large crowd. You wonder what the
4:13hell are they doing here? This is a book
4:15about misery. And then I'm up in Boston
4:17at the public library, huge auditorium.
4:20And uh it was so crowded it spilled into
4:23other rooms where they put TV monitors
4:26and then you don't have time to think
4:29about it to reflected it because then
4:31then they they put you on the road and
4:33on on on the book tour. So all of this
4:37has happened to me and the next two
4:40books, the movie. So all in my case at
4:44my age, all you think about is the next
4:46book. Thanks for all the the the money
4:49that came in with Andrew's ashes and it
4:51freed me. I don't have to count pennies
4:54anymore the way I did when I was a
4:56teacher. You know, the princely teacher
4:58salary.
4:58But actually there might have been a
4:59great advantage to uh achieving that
5:02level of success late in life because
5:04You know, who you are is such a settled
5:06issue by then,
5:07Terry. If I had achieved any success
5:11in in in my 20s or 30s, I'd be dead now
5:14of women and whiskey.
5:18I wouldn't have been able to handle it
5:20because I was I was very friendly with
5:21the Clansancy brothers at New York and
5:23they were
5:24they were big drinkers and out all night
5:26and I was a teacher and I think uh I
5:29used to see some of them not just the
5:31Clansies but other people going a bit
5:33wild and a lot a lot of them fell by the
5:35wayside
5:36and of course your brother Malaki had a
5:38very famous pub. Yeah, he did. He had a
5:41but he was way up tall and I hung out
5:43mostly in the village, but I wouldn't
5:45have been able to handle it. So,
5:46whatever whatever success I have came to
5:49me in my 60s and and and beyond. So, I'm
5:52I'm lucky.
5:53Yeah.
5:54That I can't stay out all night like a
5:56wild man.
5:58Um, I know that uh um you've cited
6:01Gorvidal's comment about memoirs being
6:04an impression of a life and obviously
6:07not uh
6:08not um like an autobiography where
6:11you're you're sticking to the the sort
6:13of public record. And Angela's Ashes is
6:16kind of known uh among its fans and
6:19readers for the the incredible level of
6:22detail and memory that seems to have
6:24come into play and you're recreating
6:26your impression of your you know
6:28childhood and
6:29um uh obviously with Tis and with
6:32teacher man those are recounting
6:34experiences that happened later in life
6:36but I wonder if you could um walk us
6:39through that process a little bit of how
6:42Angela's ashes what was what is really
6:44the sort of genesis of it. I you know
6:46there was the the teaching experience
6:49and and all of that but had you been
6:52writing uh had you been keeping like a
6:54journal or a diary or keeping notes or
6:57how were you getting at those those
6:59seinal memories?
7:00My my way of of of recollecting all of
7:03this was as a teacher in in New York
7:05City high schools. I started off one of
7:08the roughest high schools in New York
7:10called McKe Vocational. And in those
7:12days people say if you if you're going
7:14to be a teacher you stay away from
7:16vocational high school. This was
7:18Westside story you know intensified
7:21because the gang war there were a lot of
7:22gang wars going on there but that's the
7:24only job I could get because when I went
7:26around to schools
7:27and I would meet the heads of English
7:29departments
7:30and they say well you know you seem to
7:32be very bright and all that but we have
7:34this problem problem with the brogue
7:37the brogue. uh you know we don't want
7:39our kids to go home sounding like Barry
7:41Fitzgerald and so I I it was hard for me
7:44to get a job and I got a job only
7:46because nobody else would take a job in
7:48the school. It was very hard. But um
7:53they were it was the it ironically
7:56enough it it is my accent that that
7:59enabled me to survive in making
8:01vocation. And and one of the kids, hey
8:03yo, you scotch or something. And I said,
8:06uh I'm no I'm Irish. And what's Irish?
8:08And I had to explain. Oh yeah, yeah,
8:10yeah. And uh then they'd want to know.
8:13Then they use this. They were very
8:15clever. Kids do this in every school.
8:18All of you have done it. Uh
8:21to keep the if in case I might have
8:23written on the board something more
8:24grammar. Sure. Parts of it. Oh. So, so
8:27like Mr. McCort, you know, uh what kind
8:30of food did you eat in Ireland? Mr.
8:32McCort, did you uh Mr. Mccort, what kind
8:34of music did you like in Ireland? Just
8:36keep you. So, yo, Mr. McCort, uh in
8:39Ireland, did you go out with girls? No,
8:41sheep. We went out with sheep because I
8:43got so frustrated. They trying to get
8:45back. So um all of this was going on and
8:49they
8:50although I knew this they were trying to
8:52keep me away from so-called grammar at
8:55the m at the same time 50% of was was
8:58drawing me out and 50% was reminiscing
9:01about growing up in Ireland and I would
9:03think to myself I'm looking at them
9:06they're 16 and 17 at that age in Ireland
9:09I didn't know anything right
9:11because they were very easy with girls
9:13like there was a nice attitude easy
9:16relationship between the boys and girls
9:18and we were all uptight in Ireland
9:19because everything there was a sin. So
9:21all of this was happening and I wasn't
9:24keeping a journal or anything like that
9:26but it was beginning to grow in my head
9:29cumulative
9:29would it start happening to you as you
9:31were telling a story to the class would
9:33you start remembering other levels of
9:35yeah some and this is that I began to
9:37realize that that kind of past never
9:40leaves you you you you practically need
9:43to go into therapy seven days a week.
9:44Sure.
9:45Because of it was very dramatic and
9:47traumatic growing up in Ireland like
9:49that. And the same thing applies any any
9:53any kid who grows up in what would just
9:55call poor circumstances. So it was
9:57always with me and and then
9:59the tremendous power of the church. They
10:02had us in they had it completely under
10:05their power. So that we everything was a
10:08sin.
10:09Especially if it had to do with the
10:11flesh.
10:12That's no longer true. Oh, they don't.
10:14But for me, I mean, oh, yeah, I have a
10:17strong sense of sin, all right, but it
10:19doesn't afflict me the way it used to.
10:21We were tormented when we were kids, you
10:23know, if you're a teenage boy, you might
10:25engage in what they call the sin of self
10:27abuse.
10:29I never felt abused, but they are. But
10:31you had to uh you had to confess it
10:33anyway. Any they they any called bad
10:37thoughts, bad words, bad deeds, and then
10:40all
10:40impure thoughts. You had to go. You had
10:42to go confess.
10:44Yeah. Um, you and and Malaki put
10:48together a a a show based on your
10:51upbringing in Ireland, a couple of
10:53Blackards,
10:54right?
10:54Um, can you give us a little sense of
10:56the the history of that? And did that
10:58come into play with the with writing
11:00Angela's Ashes?
11:01Oh, no. No,
11:02that that was before Andrew's Ashes and
11:04Oh, yeah. because I was always I was
11:07always noodling around with the with the
11:10with this this material from Ireland and
11:12then coming over these this the big
11:14exper the transatlantic experience. So,
11:17uh I I thought one time since I was
11:20always telling stories in the classroom
11:22and Maliki as a bartender was all always
11:25going on behind the bar. So, I I
11:27suggested we we get together and do
11:29something. And I can tell you in the
11:30beginning it was very raw, practically
11:32unscripted. We get up on the stage and
11:34yak yak yak. Oh, really?
11:35And eventually it had to be put together
11:37into a script
11:39and that we did that here and there
11:40around New York and Chicago.
11:43I was just wondering whether that was a
11:44a a source of remembering more.
11:47No, no, because when when I wrote
11:49Angela's ashes, I didn't want to use
11:51anything from a couple of black. I only
11:53use one thing,
11:54a communion scene.
11:55Okay.
11:56That was all I wanted. I wanted to be
11:59fresh. So, so when when Angela's when
12:02when you started writing Angela's Ashes,
12:04can you can you bring us back to how
12:07that happened? I mean, you're retired
12:08from teaching. You're in your 60s.
12:10You're hanging out in your your
12:13apartment in New York, and you decide,
12:15well, I'm going to I'm going to really
12:17get serious about this. Sit down.
12:19What happened was I I got married
12:21Uhhuh.
12:21for the third time.
12:22Uhhuh.
12:24And uh I'm a slow learner. So uh that
12:29was in August of 1994. And a few weeks
12:32after that, I I we had to rented this
12:34little house in on the Delaware River in
12:37Pennsylvania. And a few weeks after
12:38that, I I had the notebook in my lap and
12:40and this sounds ridiculous or miraculous
12:43or something. I started writing the uh
12:46the first couple of pages of Angel's
12:48Ashes as if the as if it flowed out of
12:50my pen. And I remember those pages that
12:53I wrote were never altered. Whatever
12:56came out that day were the words were
12:58never altered. And it begins with my my
13:01mother and father should have stayed in
13:02New York where they met and where I
13:05where they met and married where I was
13:06born. And that was the beginning of it.
13:08And then uh it continued to flow and
13:13there was something about my life then
13:14where I'm married now for the third time
13:16and this is a good marriage and I and
13:19I'm I have the time I'm retired from
13:22teaching. I did part-time teaching in a
13:24community college.
13:25Uh so I kept working at this book and I
13:29didn't know what I was going to do with
13:30it because I I had no publisher. I had
13:33no agent.
13:34Did you write the whole thing in long
13:35hand?
13:36Yeah. I I wrote in a composition book, a
13:38series of composition.
13:39How long did you take it?
13:40Uh 13 months.
13:42I did, but then I would put it onto the
13:44computer later on because I don't like
13:46writing on the computer.
13:47Yeah.
13:48And I had a method for anybody
13:50interested might might like this method,
13:52which I found very helpful. You have a
13:54notebook and I write write today's
13:56narrative on the right page. And on the
13:58left page, if I had an idea about
14:00anything, I put it on the left page. And
14:02that's what happened with Angela's
14:04Ashes. I was the first 19 pages have to
14:07do with my mother and father meeting in
14:10New York and how I was born and so on.
14:12And then one day I wrote I said I
14:15tomorrow I'm going to write start
14:16writing about my first memory and I
14:18wrote down I'm in a playground in
14:21Brooklyn with my brother Maliki. We're
14:23on the seessaw. He goes up. I go down.
14:27He goes up. I go down. I get off. He got
14:30off and he he hit the ground and he bit
14:32his tongue. So that's that was my first
14:34memory and that method of writing on the
14:37right and making notes on the left
14:38carried me through the whole book.
14:40Did you write every day during the time?
14:41Yeah, I did. I did because it was as as
14:44as Hemingway would have said, it was
14:46coming
14:47and it was good.
14:48Yeah.
14:48I thought I thought it was good. I was
14:51all the other thing about it when I
14:53wrote that uh I'm in a playground in
14:55Brooklyn that's through the perspective
14:57of a three and a half year old,
14:59right?
14:59And I kept it simple. People say to me,
15:01well, why don't you use quotation mark?
15:04I don't children don't use quotation
15:06marks. So I there's a minimum of
15:08punctuation just as a child. So I start
15:12with three, four, five up to 19. And I
15:15suppose the language prog I realized
15:17later on this is exactly what James
15:19Joyce did in a portrait of the artist.
15:21That's right. Yeah.
15:23So that that that that
15:26was almost
15:27you knew you were on to something. I
15:29knew and it was so enjoyable.
15:31Yeah.
15:31To sit with with this sometimes I use a
15:34little uh lap desk and I'd write on that
15:37and then in the afternoon I'd uh I'd
15:41have lunch and my wife and then I go I'd
15:44go back and do it and at the end of the
15:45day then I'd read her what I'd written.
15:48She always said it was good. And of
15:50course she was she's a new wife so she
15:52thought I was
15:53Well, you said now that one of your
15:54former students turned it down. Who
15:57first opened the door to it?
15:59What happened was I had the I had had
16:01had about half a book written and a
16:04friend of mine, Mary Breathe Smith, who
16:07was um a novelist herself and a for
16:09reporter for the New York Times, she
16:11asked me what I was writing and I said,
16:12"Well, I'm writing this memoir." And she
16:14said she'd like to see it. I said, "No,
16:16you wouldn't." All misery. And Catholic
16:19says, "I'm sorted." No, no. She said,
16:21"I'd like to see it." And she she took I
16:24sent it to her and she read it in one
16:26sitting. I had about 180 pages and uh
16:30then she said she was going to show it
16:31to her agent who told her no the Irish
16:35thing is over
16:36really
16:36people are not interested. So then she
16:39another woman who was her neighbor up in
16:41Bedford Hills in New York Molly
16:44Friedrich Molly said well what is it
16:45about Ireland you know growing up in No
16:49Molly said no that Mr. James Joyce is
16:52taking care of that. So Mary insisted,
16:55Molly read it and liked it and then she
16:57took it to Scriber and they bought it.
17:00They gave me the advance. And uh that
17:02was in um June of of uh 95.
17:08Mhm.
17:08And I had a meeting with the editor at
17:10Script and said, "When will you finish
17:11it?" And I said, "November." November.
17:13You finish half a book in November. By
17:15no I said, "Yeah, five months." Oh. And
17:19I said, "I'll bring it in November
17:2030th." Nove why I said that's the
17:24birthday of my favorite writer Jonathan
17:26Swift. Oh, and I showed up uh with the
17:30finished book on November 30 and they
17:32said you're setting a bad precedent.
17:34Writers never finish things on time. So
17:37that was that was the
17:38And you said they printed what like
17:4027,000
17:4127,000 copies
17:42and then it went up to millions.
17:44Well, even that for a first book was
17:46probably a fairly healthy print. I mean,
17:48so they must have had some faith. Well,
17:49they had that they had that section of
17:51it in the New Yorker in June
17:531995 and which I remember very well.
17:55I I learned about the buzz in the
17:57publishing industry. There was buzz
18:00and then of course the book is published
18:01and then there's the movie and and then
18:04there's me meeting this being sent all
18:07over the country. They're sending a
18:09private plane for me. Paramount sends a
18:11private plane for me to to to
18:16that airport in New Jersey. Only me on
18:19this plane and two pilots really and all
18:21this booze and sandwiches and all this
18:24and I said Jesus.
18:25This was in connection with the film.
18:26Yeah.
18:27And you said I wrote a book about
18:29absolute poverty and misery and look at
18:31me. Alan Parker made a actually
18:34beautiful movie of Angela's Ashes with
18:37Robert Kyle Carly and Emily Watson. Um I
18:41thought it was uh really sort of
18:43captured the spirit of the book very
18:45successfully and I wondered whether you
18:47had much involvement with the uh with
18:49the film.
18:50No, they they bought it and then they
18:52they they would um let me know what was
18:54going on. They first for instance they
18:57wanted to choose uh Liam Niss. He was
19:00all set to do it. as my father. But I
19:03think there was a problem with money. So
19:05they got Robert Carol who who Scottish.
19:09And then um I I was sorry in a way that
19:11Liam Niss didn't do it because his
19:13mother lived next door to my aunt up in
19:15the north of Ireland.
19:16Wow.
19:17In a town called Belly Mina. That would
19:20that would have been very interesting
19:21because he's he knows the air. He knew
19:23the area. He had the right accent and
19:25everything. But that didn't happen. The
19:27movie came out then. It got mixed
19:29reviews and disappeared, but everybody
19:33says it's beautifully photographed and
19:35so but something
19:37it was a very too sad maybe.
19:39I don't know. You know, I uh watching it
19:41again, I thought it really worked very
19:43very well. I mean, there's just such
19:45great material there. did the uh the
19:48kids who there were three young actors
19:50who played you in in your youth and I
19:52wonder um how how much you identified
19:56with them when you saw them on screen.
19:58Well, you know, I I at that I was trying
20:00to adjust to everything. I was trying to
20:02adjust to the s to the success of the
20:04book. I was trying to write the second
20:06book to and then I was I was trying to
20:08deal with the fact that they'd made a
20:09movie of my life. Jesus, it's
20:11extraordinary. And when they when they
20:13invited us up to the screening room in
20:15New York, myself and my wife and uh
20:18David Brown, the producer, and another
20:21assistant director, uh I'm sitting there
20:24looking at this movie. It's about me.
20:27And my wife is soaking up the Kleenex,
20:29weeping all over the place. And I said,
20:32for the first time in my life, when we
20:34came out of the movie, I said, "I need a
20:36drink." And they bought me they bought
20:38me an Irish whiskey. It's very hard to
20:40get to to accustom yourself to this kind
20:42of attention, especially when you've
20:44been an obscure teacher for 30 years.
20:46Nobody gives a damn about teachers.
20:50Nobody paid me a scrap of attention,
20:52right?
20:52Then you make then you write a book and
20:54oh, oh yeah,
20:56you see these characters in the streets
20:57of you're the guy that wrote that book
21:00because I've seen you on television.
21:01Yeah, my mother likes that book. I said,
21:04what about you? You know, I don't have
21:05time. Okay. So, it a lot of it had to do
21:08with women.
21:09You know, I wanted to ask you, we're
21:11we're we're starting to run out of time.
21:12I want to ask you to read something uh
21:14in a minute, but I was also personally
21:17delighted to see in Tis uh several
21:21references to the great Mickey Carton
21:22and Ruthie Morris.
21:24I I actually played in Mickey Carton's
21:26band when I was 16. Yeah. Back in the
21:29early 60s. And I I would love to see I'm
21:32just putting in my own pitch here. I
21:33would love to see you do a book that
21:36really focuses on what it was like being
21:38in that that Irish immigrant world in
21:40the ' 50s.
21:41The dance halls.
21:42Yeah, the dance halls, the Jagger House
21:44and all of those places, you know. Um
21:47but that be for another interview.
21:49Meanwhile, um we talked about your
21:51reading a passage from Angela's Ashes to
21:55uh close out our our talk here today.
21:58This has to do with preparing for first
22:00communion.
22:01The priest will come soon to examine us
22:04in the catechism and everything else.
22:06The school master himself has to show us
22:08how to receive holy communion. He tells
22:11us gather around him. He fills his hat
22:13with the newspaper. The limmerick leader
22:15torn into little bits. He gives Patty
22:18Clausy the hat, kneels on the floor,
22:20tells Patty to take one bit of paper and
22:23place it on his tongue, the master's
22:25tongue. He shows us how to stick out the
22:28tongue. Receive the bit of paper. Hold
22:30it a moment. Draw in the tongue. Fold
22:33your hands in prayer. Look toward
22:35heaven. Close your eyes in adoration.
22:37Wait for the paper to melt in your
22:39mouth. Swallow it. Thank God for the
22:41gift, the sanctifying grace. When he
22:43sticks out his tongue, we have to hold
22:46in the laugh because we never saw a big
22:48purple tongue before. He opens his eyes
22:50to catch the boys who are giggling, but
22:53he can't say anything because he still
22:54has God on his tongue and it's a holy
22:57moment. He gets off his knees and put
22:59tells us kneel around the classroom for
23:01the holy communion practice. He goes
23:03around the room placing bits of paper on
23:06our tongues and mumbling in Latin. Some
23:08boys giggle and he roars at them that if
23:11the giggling doesn't stop, it's not holy
23:13communion they'll be getting but the
23:15last rights and what is that sacrament
23:17called McCort? Extremection, sir. That's
23:20right, Mort. Not bad for a yank from the
23:22sinful shores of America. He tells us we
23:25have to be careful to stick out our
23:27tongues far enough so the communion
23:29wafer won't fall to the floor. He says
23:32that's the worst thing that can happen
23:33to a priest. If that wafer slides off
23:36your tongue, the poor priest has to get
23:38down on his two knees, pick it up with
23:41his own tongue and lick the floor around
23:43it in case it bounce from one spot to
23:45another. that priest could get a
23:47splinter that was make his tongue swell
23:50to the size of a turnup and that's
23:52enough to choke you and kill you
23:54entirely. He tells us that next to a
23:56relic of the true cross, the communion
23:59wafer is the holiest thing in the world
24:01and our first communion is the holiest
24:03moment in our lives. Talking about first
24:06communion makes him all excited. He
24:07paces back and forth. Wavesy stick tells
24:10us we must never forget that the moment
24:12the holy communion is placed on our
24:15tongues. We be we become members of that
24:18most glorious congregation, the one holy
24:22Roman Catholic and apostolic church.
24:24That for 2,000 years men, women, and
24:28children have died for the faith. That
24:30the Irish have nothing to be ashamed of
24:33in the martyr department. Haven't we
24:35provided martyrs galore? Haven't we
24:38bared our necks of the Protestant acts?
24:41Haven't we mounted the scaffold singing
24:44as if embarking on a picnic? Haven't we,
24:46boys? We have, sir. What have we done,
24:50boys? Bear our necks to the Protestant
24:52act, sir, and mounted the scaffold
24:55signature as if embarking on a picnic.
24:59Sir, he says that perhaps in this class
25:02there's a future priest or a martyr for
25:04the faith, though he doubts it very much
25:07for we are the laziest gang of
25:09ignoramises. It has ever been his
25:12misfortune to teach.
25:14Thank you very much, Frank McCord. And
25:16thank you for watching the writing life.

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