YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Former FBI Agent: If They Do This Please RUN! Narcissists Favourite Trick To Control You!

Former FBI Agent: If They Do This Please RUN! Narcissists Favourite Trick To Control You! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 21,874 words · 3,552 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00I was in the FBI for 25 years. I have
0:03sat with spies and enemies of this
0:05country and I learned a lot about human
0:07behaviors. Imagine being able to read
0:10other people and circumstances faster.
0:12It gives you a tremendous advantage in
0:14your life. I want to hear everything.
0:17So, one of the first things I teach is
0:19Joe Navarro is a former FBI agent turned
0:21world-renowned body language expert.
0:23He helps people decode body language to
0:25improve communication, trust, and
0:27influence. One of the things that I
0:29found in negotiations is we as humans
0:32communicate quite a lot with our faces.
0:34For instance, we push this together when
0:36we don't understand something. And then
0:38the minute we hear something we don't
0:40like, blood actually begins to leave the
0:42lips and then we begin to tighten them.
0:44Another behavior is that when there's
0:46lack of confidence, insecurities, people
0:49immediately
0:50So, once we understand these behaviors,
0:53you can take command of any situation.
0:56Confidence, is this something that
0:57you're born with or do you think
0:58confidence can be trained? It can
1:00absolutely be trained. So, the FBI
1:03actually teach confidence and there's a
1:05lot of strategies. One of them is the
1:07most powerful gesture that we can use
1:09and you see Musk do this a lot. But,
1:11what I tell people is that the easiest
1:14way to learn confidence is to
1:17Joe, we actually videoed my interaction
1:19with you when I met you. And I've got
1:20the video here.
1:23So, one of the things you immediately
1:24did was Don't do that. It's a no-no.
1:29This is a way to blow my mind a little
1:30bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
1:33regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
1:35show. So, could I ask you for a favor
1:37before we start? If you like this show
1:39and you like what we do here and you
1:40want to support us, the free simple way
1:41that you can do just that is by hitting
1:43the subscribe button. And my commitment
1:45to you is if you do that, then I'll do
1:46everything in my power, me and my team,
1:48to make sure that this show is better
1:50for you every single week. We'll listen
1:52to your feedback, we'll find the guests
1:53that you want me to speak to, and we'll
1:55continue to do what we do. Thank you so
1:57much.
2:01Joe,
2:02zooming out, if someone asked you in the
2:04street
2:05and they wanted a two-sentence answer,
2:09who are you and what have you spent your
2:11life doing?
2:12How would you answer that question?
2:15With one word,
2:17teaching.
2:18I think I've spent my whole life
2:20teaching, even
2:22even when I was in the FBI,
2:25uh starting in 1984,
2:28a lot of my job was obviously being an
2:30FBI agent, investigating crimes, uh
2:34chasing after spies, and so forth.
2:36But, uh
2:38you know, I hired on in 1978, but as
2:40early as '84, I was already teaching.
2:43And um
2:44I love it when when people get it and
2:47they they see a behavior, they
2:49understand the
2:52um underpinnings, the foundation of why
2:54we do certain things.
2:56I'll give you an example. Sometimes
2:58you'll come to a horrible uh scene and
3:01uh people immediately
3:03gasp, they take in air, and then they
3:05cover their their their mouths, or
3:08there's one point uh difference on the
3:10scoreboard, and people are like this,
3:12and they don't understand. This is
3:14This is far back where we were
3:16surrounded by lions and tigers, and we
3:19learned to cover our mouths so as not to
3:22broadcast our breath
3:24so that they couldn't see where we were
3:26or find us.
3:28And uh and so the human body has a a few
3:32shortcuts.
3:33I should say the human brain.
3:35They're called heuristics. And so one of
3:38them is to freeze.
3:40Uh so when we hear a loud sound or we
3:42see a predator or a dog, we we we
3:45freeze.
3:46Obviously, whoever ran
3:48300,000 years ago uh was bitten.
3:53Um and so we have these shortcuts and uh
3:56and it's always fascinating to me to
3:58share
4:00why we have these behaviors and why we
4:02And you realize he just inhaled, so you
4:05can hold your breath, and then we cover
4:06our breath so we don't broadcast for the
4:09the predators to to smell us.
4:12You spend your time writing books. You
4:13spend your time teaching in various
4:15different contexts these days, whether
4:16it's on stage or in other environments
4:18on the internet.
4:21What is it that you're
4:24giving people?
4:27That's a profound question that I don't
4:30think I've been asked.
4:32I think the simplest answer is
4:34knowledge.
4:35Knowledge that perhaps they didn't have
4:37time to acquire. I
4:41uh I grew up very poor.
4:43I was a refugee from Cuba and um
4:46and I lived in an area of Miami which
4:49was um mostly elderly people. So I was
4:53by myself a lot, so I would go through
4:55uh garbage bins collecting things uh to
4:58read. It's that knowledge uh that that I
5:01was fortunate enough to acquire, the
5:04love of uh of reading.
5:07And uh I run into a lot of people who
5:09haven't had that benefit. Maybe they
5:11don't have a love of of reading and of
5:14learning. I see myself as, okay, I have
5:17this knowledge. I I I have sat with
5:21terrorists, spies, bazooka-yielding
5:25enemies of this country.
5:28And other people never had that
5:29opportunity. And I learned a lot uh from
5:33that and from my reading. So, why not
5:36share it? Make their life uh a little
5:39easier. When you say make their life a
5:41little easier, if I am to receive your
5:42knowledge, how would my life be better?
5:45How would I be more productive?
5:48That's a great question. Imagine being
5:50able to uh perceive
5:53uh things way ahead of time because you
5:57can read other people and circumstances
6:00faster.
6:02Most people see a behavior and have to
6:04sit there and wonder, are they upset
6:07with me? Are they uh as the Brits would
6:09say, my wife is a a Brit, are they
6:11taking the piss or something? Just uh
6:14any number of of things.
6:16But imagine being able to look at
6:19something and decipher it infinitely
6:22faster so that you can devote yourself
6:25to to other things.
6:27Where most of us break down the the face
6:30into the forehead, the eyes, the ears,
6:32and so forth, and uh but imagine being
6:34able to assess the whole face, the
6:36shoulders, the hands, everything all at
6:38once,
6:40and draw inferences from that
6:42information.
6:44It gives you a a tremendous advantage,
6:47and also
6:49in negotiations, being able to read
6:51others, and uh at the same time, we
6:54forget that others are reading us, and
6:57what is the perception that we want to
7:00uh convey?
7:01And if I
7:02were to attain all of the knowledge that
7:04you have to offer, and I were to
7:06implement it,
7:07what areas of my life do you believe
7:09would improve?
7:11Uh first, within yourself. Uh for
7:14instance, being able to assess yourself.
7:17So, if if
7:18if let's say you you have uh anger
7:21issues and and so forth, or you you're
7:23quick to trigger.
7:25Well, how how do I deal with that? Well,
7:26first, you assess, you know, uh what is
7:29going on.
7:30Your stomach gets upset, chest tightens,
7:33your emotions uh get up. So, what do I
7:35do then? Most people aren't taught that.
7:38Uh so, there's part of that, there's how
7:40to communicate, for instance uh more
7:43effectively with your children. A simple
7:45thing that for instance and nobody
7:48teaches this well, I do
7:51is
7:52that you know, if you stand in front of
7:54your child like a drill instructor with
7:57your neck stiff, you're going to get a
7:59very different reaction than if you
8:02stand at an angle
8:04slightly further away from the child and
8:07tilt your head
8:09that the communication you will
8:10experience with that child is so much
8:13different just by tilting your head than
8:15if you are
8:17standing directly in front of them that
8:20you can enhance communication and then
8:22you say, well, what application is that
8:25for real life?
8:26Well,
8:28you can actually change the amount of
8:31face time you get from somebody else.
8:34Let's say you only had 2 minutes and you
8:36want to stretch that. By just tilting
8:38your head we've demonstrably shown that
8:41you can change the amount of face time
8:44that somebody's willing to give to you
8:46just because
8:48we show that we're relaxed and that
8:52we're not coming at you with an agenda
8:54that we're willing to
8:56to listen.
8:57It can be transformative
9:00if you apply that knowledge. Now, some
9:02people look at knowledge and they don't
9:04do much with it, but you can you can use
9:07it at home, you can use it at work, you
9:09can use it in in negotiations. For
9:12instance, one of the things that I teach
9:14is is the the value of time.
9:17And time is actually can be used as a
9:19nonverbal. So, when I talk about
9:22nonverbals, I'm really talking about
9:24anything that communicates but isn't not
9:26a word.
9:27Well,
9:29you can use time as a nonverbal to say
9:31I'm in charge. Whoever dominates and
9:34controls time controls.
9:37And so even if I change the delivery of
9:40my message to slow things down,
9:43you're already taking charge in that
9:46negotiation.
9:49It's a beautiful thing to to to witness
9:52when you execute it properly. So there
9:56are a lot of applications
9:58and you know and obviously like like you
10:01you you basically study human behavior.
10:04You are business person but you're
10:06actually really in in the people
10:08business and
10:10once we understand the the the needs and
10:14some are biological, the wants, the
10:16desires,
10:19the preferences,
10:21uh the preferences of others. How do
10:23they like that information delivered?
10:26How do they like their coffee? All of
10:28that. But then what do they fear?
10:32Most people don't tell you I have fears.
10:35They say, "Well, you know, I'm concerned
10:37about that or that I don't know if
10:38that's a good investment or
10:40we'll have to do some due diligence."
10:42Well, that's the the brain only
10:44recognizes fear.
10:46And so once you understand that, it
10:49gives you such amplitude
10:52to
10:53to then pursue whatever it is that
10:56you're interested in in doing more
10:58effectively. And
11:00your career. Yeah. So you've been in you
11:03were an FBI agent for more than 30
11:06years?
11:07Well, I was in law enforcement for 30
11:09years. I was in the FBI for 25 years
11:14principally working in the area of
11:16counterintelligence, but you know, in
11:18the FBI you never wear one hat.
11:21Um I was also a pilot, so I flew
11:24surveillance. I was a SWAT team
11:26commander, so I uh did SWAT stuff.
11:29And actually worked with the uh
11:32from uh from London.
11:34And then I was in the um behavioral
11:37analysis program. So, we use that skill
11:41set to uh
11:44to work on uh catching spies.
11:47What is the behavioral analysis program?
11:49In the '89-'90, the FBI developed a very
11:53secret program to analyze not uh
11:58people that were dead, but actually
12:01how do we use human behavior to catch
12:05spies, to catch terrorists? And then
12:08once we catch them,
12:10how do we get into their heads? How do
12:12we get them to tell us what what they're
12:14up to?
12:15What their purpose is and and uh and so
12:18forth. So, we created this uh this
12:20program.
12:22Uh I, along with five other agents out
12:25of 12,000, were selected from the FBI
12:30to uh to become the uh part of this new
12:33behavioral analysis program, which was
12:35supposed to be classified, except it it
12:37was accidentally leaked.
12:40And our job was to uh look at the
12:43threats, national security threats, and
12:45then see how we can um use our knowledge
12:48of human behavior to then uh attack
12:51that. So, when you say you much of your
12:53work was to catch spies, Right.
12:56most of us have only ever heard of spies
12:58from watching James Bond and other
12:59things like that. So, we don't actually
13:01understand the sort of reality of spies.
13:05So, if I just play completely dumb for a
13:06second, other countries send people into
13:11other countries like the United States
13:13or the UK or Australia, Canada Right.
13:15to do what?
13:17So, every nation-state has uh has
13:20interests. A lot of it is obtained
13:22through diplomacy. A lot of it is now uh
13:25obtained through what we call espionage.
13:28So, it's nothing like television and the
13:31movies.
13:32Uh, some nations, especially hostile
13:34nations, send what we call hostile
13:37intelligence officers, usually
13:39masquerading as a diplomat, but often
13:42masquerading as students or scientists
13:45or
13:46businessmen.
13:48And their job is to acquire knowledge in
13:51in specific areas, military knowledge,
13:54science and research,
13:57intentions and plans, military
13:59intentions and plans. Or they may have
14:01interest in, for instance, what is going
14:03to be the wheat production in Argentina
14:06this year because it may affect the
14:08price of grain across the world. So,
14:12there's commercial espionage that that
14:15that goes on.
14:17And so, every nation defends itself by
14:20trying to identify, well, who is here
14:24trying to spy.
14:26So, that's what we do. That's That is
14:29That's counterintelligence. That's
14:31espionage, and it's nothing like the
14:33movies. We don't
14:36We don't We don't jump from buildings
14:38and
14:39Although we do that sometimes, but
14:41it's it's not as
14:43as glamorous as as the James Bond stuff.
14:46So, have you caught spies
14:48before? I have. I've arrested spies,
14:50multiple spies. Yeah. Give me the the
14:53most interesting example of a spy that
14:55you identified and caught. And what were
14:57they here doing and which country did
14:58they come from? Well, as it turns out,
15:01it was an American because we also have
15:03what we call turncoats.
15:05So, in the case of Roderick James
15:08Ramsey,
15:09he was an an individual who, in 1989, I
15:13was asked to go interview
15:16because we thought he was a witness um,
15:20something that had happened in Germany.
15:22He had a former army sergeant uh, had
15:26been kicked out of the army.
15:28The military wanted to find out if he
15:32knew anything about some missing
15:34documents, if he had seen anything.
15:37During my interview of him, which again,
15:41I thought he was a witness, he was
15:44smoking a cigarette at his house
15:47and I I just mentioned uh, an
15:50individual's name that had been at that
15:52base, but who had been under
15:54investigation
15:55by German authorities. In fact, by the
15:59Bundeskriminalamt, which is the
16:01equivalent of the FBI.
16:04There's no reason why he should react to
16:06that. It's just a name, but when I
16:08mentioned the name, his cigarette shook.
16:12And
16:14and I knew enough about human behaviors
16:16to know that that physiological change
16:19had to be caused by something
16:20significant. Why would a name affect
16:23him?
16:24And and so, scientific method, talked to
16:28him for 20 more minutes about something
16:30else, and then I mentioned that name
16:31again. And sure enough, his cigarette
16:34shook again. And at that point, I was
16:37convinced that there was something
16:38nefarious there. As it turns out, the
16:40Germans arrested Conrad.
16:42Conrad was the Clyde Conrad, that was
16:45the name of the the person that had been
16:48under suspicion.
16:50Our the guy that I was interviewing, Rod
16:52Ramsey, was was not. And so, I left that
16:56interview, and then
16:58I persuaded my supervisors to continue
17:01to talk to Rod Ramsey, and that led to
17:05a 10-year investigation and the arrest
17:08of
17:09three, four, five, six, seven additional
17:12individuals. So, that Rod Rodrick Ramsey
17:15guy with the shaking cigarette was a he
17:17was spying on America?
17:19What that he was doing, and that's a
17:21good question. And forgive me for not
17:23explaining. While he was in the army, he
17:25and Clyde Lee Conrad were
17:28were stealing military secrets. From
17:32from the US Army. They were They were
17:33taking US Army secrets and then selling
17:37it to the Soviet Union through the
17:41Hungarian Intelligence Service. So, he
17:43was a traitor of the United
17:44So, he was a traitor.
17:46And that is often the biggest problem
17:49for any nation-state is the traitors
17:52from
17:53from from within.
17:55And they had elevated espionage to an
17:58industrial level. I mean, to to the
18:00point where they actually no longer even
18:03use 35-mm cameras to photograph the
18:06documents.
18:07They were actually videotaping them.
18:10So, that they could expedite the
18:12thousands of pages. It was the most
18:15damaging
18:17espionage case in the history of the
18:19United States
18:22because
18:23they had compromised the United States
18:26nuclear go codes in Germany.
18:31And that left all of Western Europe
18:35exposed.
18:37Nuclear go codes?
18:39Yes. What is that?
18:41All of our nuclear
18:44assets around the world
18:47are controlled by two things.
18:50There is a what's called a permissive
18:52action link, which is like a last-minute
18:56safety
18:57lock on each device.
19:00And then there is the
19:04uh go code that says there is authority
19:09to use this weapon.
19:12And
19:14was able to steal
19:18the actual nuclear go code. It's a
19:22it's a card. It's made out of a special
19:24material which I cannot describe. It's
19:26made out of special
19:29metals and plastics and other things.
19:32And
19:33the inherent danger in what they did was
19:37that
19:39not that they could initiate a launch.
19:42That can only be initiated at the
19:44national command authority level.
19:48But if this were compromised and given
19:52to, let's say, the Russians
19:54at the time the Soviet Union, this is
19:57before 1989.
20:01Then a foreign a foreign hostile
20:03intelligence service could take that
20:06and replicate it.
20:09But put the wrong numbers in there.
20:12And by putting the wrong numbers in
20:14there,
20:16if it's in a
20:17in if it's in a pyramid structure and
20:20it's put high enough,
20:22right? Let's let's say you control the
20:26all of the East Coast.
20:28Maybe you don't want to spy for for
20:30Russia, but for $100,000,
20:33let's say you were willing to slip this
20:35in there and take the one that's there
20:37out. Mhm.
20:39Okay. So, maybe that helps your
20:41conscience in in some way. Then you
20:43basically, if it's a pyramid sort of
20:47schema, you can paralyze everything
20:50below that.
20:51Okay. So, someone could have
20:53changed the codes, put a fake one in,
20:55which meant that it wouldn't work
20:56anymore. That
20:57at the highest level, then nothing would
20:59work. If you if you had it access at the
21:02highest level.
21:04Did they go to jail?
21:06Oh, yes. Yeah. So, The shaking cigarette
21:08guy went to jail. 33 years.
21:11Let me just finish it by saying this.
21:15This was this case put of all of Western
21:17Europe in danger as well as the United
21:20States.
21:21The general who testified in this case
21:24said that had hostilities broken out,
21:27the defeat of the West would have been
21:30assured
21:32within 3 days. That's how devastating
21:35this was.
21:39Yeah, let that sink in.
21:41Those are his words. The defeat of the
21:43West would have been assured
21:47because of the damage these individuals
21:49had done.
21:53Not all cases are as significant in
21:55terms of catching spies. I was reading
21:56about another one where where you caught
21:58a man because of the way he held some
22:00flowers.
22:02Yeah, the you know, a lot of times it's
22:05it's just based on
22:07on on the behavior, you know, you you
22:10see how how often somebody looks at
22:12their watch, right? But maybe when
22:15they're operational, they look at their
22:16watch more often.
22:19And they filmed this guy who we thought
22:22was what we call an illegal and in in
22:26the parlance of espionage, an illegal is
22:28someone who magically appears in the
22:31United States and pretends to be an
22:34American and has always been an American
22:36like the series The Americans. But we
22:39had some clues from one of our sister
22:42services from another country and said
22:44we think this individual may be someone
22:48who you need to look at that is
22:50pretending to be an American.
22:52We're looking at the the the we bring
22:54the the whole team together, all six of
22:56us, and we're looking at the at the
22:58movie and you know,
23:00and it was filmed just serendipitously.
23:04It was filmed
23:06on Valentine's Day. And so we see him
23:09entering a flower shop and leaving the
23:11flower shop.
23:13When he exited, I said,
23:15"Definitely, he's not an American."
23:18And everybody looked at me like,
23:21"Excuse me?"
23:22I said, "He's not from here."
23:25And he said, "How?"
23:28And he says, "Look how he's carrying the
23:30the bouquet. Americans carry the bouquet
23:33bouquet up.
23:35Eastern Europeans carry it bouquet
23:37down."
23:40And and continued to carry it that way.
23:44So I I did what's called a presumptive.
23:46So we stopped him one day and and I
23:48said, "You know, I'm with the FBI." And
23:51um
23:53and I said, "Do you want to know how we
23:54know?"
23:57And that was the the the first trigger I
24:00was looking for to see how he reacts to
24:02it.
24:03And he fell for it.
24:06And he said, "Go on." Most people would
24:08say, "Get out of here. Go away."
24:12And
24:14and I said, "It was how you carried the
24:15flowers."
24:17His chin came down. His eyelids
24:21went heavy.
24:23As he was evaluating
24:25everything he had done. You know, they
24:27he had practiced everything. His his
24:30English was immaculate. You know, he
24:32sounded like a Midwesterner and all
24:35that.
24:36After a a few hours of having a nice
24:40really a a nice chat, he agreed to work
24:43with us and admitted everything. What
24:45did he admit?
24:47That he had been sent here by a foreign
24:49government. That his job as as an
24:53illegal was to uh be in the United
24:56States,
24:57uh act as an American, and uh most
25:00people don't understand, well, why would
25:02a country, a nation-state, spend so much
25:05money training these people to be like
25:07an American?
25:08And what they don't understand is their
25:10purpose here is for when hostilities
25:13break out. They can report on, for
25:16instance, uh train traffic.
25:19What trains are carrying munitions, what
25:21airports are being used for what
25:24purposes. Um many times, as he later
25:29told us, they're giving caches of
25:33explosives
25:34so that they can then blow up certain
25:37things that no missile would be able to
25:40uh uh to do. So, uh that's their role in
25:43in in hiding in America. It's not to
25:46commit espionage, it's to be here in uh
25:50in case hostilities break out.
25:52So, you flipped him to working with the
25:54FBI. Correct. And does that mean he
25:57doesn't get punished?
25:59Well, it uh he doesn't get punished
26:02because he didn't commit any crime other
26:04than immigration uh violation, but what
26:08he was able to reveal to us was
26:12nothing short of breathtaking.
26:15Which nation was this? I cannot say.
26:17Mhm.
26:19But, obviously, they would have to have
26:20enough money and enough interest
26:23to uh carry out an operation like this.
26:27If you had to hazard a guess, how many
26:29people that live amongst us have been
26:32sent from a foreign nation and are
26:33spies?
26:37How many do you think it is?
26:39Well, let's let's define that. You know,
26:43if if if they're if they're hostile
26:45intelligence officers,
26:47um it can be anywhere from uh 3% of the
26:52diplomatic staff to as many as at one
26:55time the Soviet Union
26:5785%
26:59of their staff were
27:02were conducting espionage.
27:04Um, I think numbers so you have those.
27:07Now, if you're referring to like how
27:09many illegals, I would say at at least
27:12you would have at least two two dozen in
27:15the UK,
27:17uh, maybe a dozen in France and
27:21you know, you would have a whole host a
27:23constellation of them in the United
27:25States be simply because we span five
27:28time zones.
27:29I believe the UK only spans one.
27:32I think I asked this in part because I
27:33was I was reading something that said
27:35much of the the um, illegal immigrants
27:38had come across the southern border of
27:40the United States. Many of them were
27:42were Chinese. And there was an article
27:44about questioning whether that was
27:47potentially an an intentional act
27:50to get illegal Chinese, um,
27:52people into the United States
27:55for some future purpose. Yeah.
27:58You know, big claims require big
28:00evidence and I haven't seen that. In my
28:02experience
28:03the Chinese intelligence service, uh,
28:06prefers to use students and scientists.
28:09We have approximately 80,000 Chinese
28:12students here at any one time.
28:14Um, I know that for instance in the
28:19early '80s and early '90s
28:22they would be given allowances. It
28:25always impressed me that they were given
28:27small allowances for meals, but large
28:29allowances for, uh, photocopying in the
28:32library.
28:34Uh, we call that a clue in the FBI.
28:37So, they'd be given like $150
28:41for eating, but they would be given
28:43thousands of dollars so that they could
28:45copy as much they could from uh, the
28:48libraries.
28:50It is much easier for them for any
28:53nation to send people here as students
28:56and for instance go into engineering or
28:59uh
29:00uh any of those things.
29:02Only some subject of body language.
29:06It's it's highly contested because some
29:08people say body language does give us
29:10clues. Some people say it doesn't give
29:11us clues because there's cultural
29:13differences.
29:15Is body language important?
29:18Well, let me address what you just
29:20asked. Well, number one, body language
29:22is is is supremely important because we
29:25we are born
29:27without the capacity to talk.
29:30And so we have to read
29:33the baby in front of us. To argue that
29:37body language A doesn't matter or it's
29:40subject to interpretation,
29:42I would argue that uh that would be a
29:46minuscule
29:48sentiment around the world amongst
29:50people who really have studied this. And
29:52I'll and I'll say why.
29:54So a baby is born without the capacity
29:57to to speak, but the mother quickly
30:00learns through nonverbals
30:03whether that child is colicky, whether
30:07or not that child needs just to be
30:10reassured,
30:12uh whether they're cold or hot, and so
30:15forth. There's a lot of junk out there.
30:19And that is probably the cleanest word
30:21that I can use about body language that
30:25this means that or whatever.
30:28But we're exquisitely prepared to
30:31communicate at any time
30:33whether or not we're comfortable or
30:35uncomfortable, whether we're confident
30:38or not understanding. We had to evolve
30:42that
30:44precisely because we were always
30:46surrounded by predators. For instance,
30:49uh Steven, when you have doubts or you
30:51want follow-up to questions that I ask,
30:54you use your eyes exquisitely. You
30:57furrow your glabella, one eye rises, the
30:59other one lowers it.
31:01You're an easy read. And so, I follow it
31:04up with information. I You didn't have
31:05to teach me that.
31:08Now, what I would argue is, am I seeing
31:11a constraint? Am I seeing um contempt or
31:15disdain? Well, that's a silly argument.
31:18We didn't evolve to have perfect
31:21answers.
31:23Evolution is about approximation for
31:26success.
31:28In other words,
31:30if I can be accurate 75 to 80% of the
31:33time, that's actually good enough.
31:36It's good enough. And so, you know, what
31:40I teach is, do you see comfort or
31:42discomfort? Psychological, physical, and
31:45so forth.
31:46Do I see as in psychology we say, um is
31:49it positively valenced or negatively
31:52valenced?
31:54Balance. You see? You're furrowing your
31:56glabella. What What does it valence
31:59mean? Valence really means it's balanced
32:02uh or how much electricity goes this way
32:05or this way. Is it What's the valence of
32:07it? It's just
32:09valenced, what does that mean?
32:10Positively valenced, you're going to see
32:12gravity-defying behaviors. You're going
32:15to see emphasis. You're going to see uh
32:19a lot of humor and alacrity and broad
32:22gestures and so forth. If it's
32:23negatively valenced,
32:26it's, you know, restraint. You're going
32:28to see the
32:30uh the furrowing of the glabella. You're
32:32going to see the
32:33tightening, the the
32:36of the the lips. You're going to see a
32:37lot of facial touching. You know, I
32:40don't know, right? All all all these uh
32:42pacifiers.
32:44And so, I would argue that uh stop
32:47looking for uh
32:49uh perfection. In fact, Dr. Ambady at
32:52Harvard, unfortunately, she passed away.
32:56She found that we as humans are going to
33:00be accurate 75%
33:03of the time
33:04in our assessment of each other.
33:08That's an extraordinary number. Her
33:10research is is ample. You can look up
33:13her research. It's it's uh it was all
33:15done on the the auspices of looking for
33:18what she called thin slice assessments.
33:22Thin slice assessments, all of your
33:25viewers should know because it it it
33:28showed us that from as little as 3
33:33milliseconds,
33:34we actually get a pretty good assessment
33:37of each other. And we're right 75% of
33:40the time with 3 milliseconds. Yes. So,
33:42they did several experiments.
33:45They had people go in
33:48and watch a teacher, for instance, by
33:51just opening the door to the classroom,
33:53watching her for a few seconds, and
33:55closing the door. They rated that
33:58teacher the same as people who had sat
34:01in that classroom all semester long.
34:05In terms of
34:07Are they a nice teacher? Are they a warm
34:09teacher? Are they uh an an empathetic
34:12teacher? Are they a competent teacher?
34:14And so forth.
34:16It's as you rub your face
34:18because there's a lot of incredulity
34:21there.
34:22You have to appreciate this experiment
34:25was done over and over and over in many
34:28areas. I was thinking as you said, it,
34:30thinking, "Fucking hell, like, I was
34:32thinking, um,
34:34if someone reads you that quickly,
34:36I was thinking about how easy it is to
34:38leave a bad first impression. Yeah.
34:41Well, you know, when I started in
34:44studying body language, which was
34:46formally in 19, uh, '71,
34:50had no appreciation for, uh, for school
34:53work. So, I created my own,
34:56uh, study program. So, when I started
34:59taking a look at at language in 1971,
35:03I remember people saying, you know, the
35:05first 20 minutes are the most important
35:08for making an impression. Then, years
35:11later, was 15 minutes. By the 1980s,
35:15somebody had, uh, said, well, it's the
35:17first 4 minutes.
35:19Time out.
35:22That's ancient information.
35:24We now know that that assessment is made
35:27in the first 3 milliseconds. That's
35:31faster than your blink rate. And you can
35:34begin to do things, uh, poorly and
35:38badly,
35:40and begin to negatively affect others
35:44in that amount of of time, because your
35:46subconscious is assessing others, uh,
35:49more quickly.
35:51And by the way, I didn't mention this,
35:53we are, even before we're born, we are
35:57assessing the world around us to the
36:00point that for survival purposes, a baby
36:04in utero begins to assess the world
36:08around
36:09by the amount of noises and by the
36:12cadence and manner of speech of the
36:15mother.
36:16So, that when that baby is born, and you
36:19can look up the research,
36:23the baby will be born,
36:25uh, uh, mirroring the native tongue so
36:29that as researchers found
36:31a baby with a German mother will cry
36:35differently, the lilt, lilt, the lilt of
36:39that baby will be different than a
36:42French baby.
36:43What does that tell us? That we already
36:46programmed
36:48to adapt to
36:51that which dominates so that we can fit
36:54better. And this goes right from from
36:56that to business because synchrony is
37:00harmony. The The The faster we can
37:03synchronize
37:05the faster we can harmonize. And so we
37:08are pre-programmed. So if your viewers
37:11are interested in that they they can
37:12look at the the research that's been
37:15done on the lilt of crying babies.
37:19How does one synchronize?
37:21So if if synchrony equals harmony Yeah.
37:24I if we synchronize with each other then
37:27we're going to be harmonious in business
37:28or in life or whatever. Right. How do I
37:30synchronize with somebody when I meet
37:32them?
37:33The first thing is at a distance.
37:36Um, if I saw you walking down the
37:38hallway
37:39and and you say, "Hey Joe." You know,
37:41and I "Steve, how are you?" Right?
37:44I'm mirroring you. You know, this goes
37:46back to the work of Carl Rogers in the
37:49early 1960s.
37:51And he found that synchrony
37:54puts us in sort of locks us in into this
37:59binding psychological binding of where
38:02you greet with your hand and arch your
38:04eyebrows. Hey, well, that sends powerful
38:07messages. So if I do it, can you imagine
38:10if you greeted me like this and I went,
38:12"Yeah, how you doing?" Yeah. It It's
38:15like we're totally out of out of
38:17harmony. We're totally out of synchrony.
38:19So um, we begin with uh with the
38:23non-verbals. We begin for instance with
38:26the clothing. You know, if you go to a
38:28meeting, you know, we would probably
38:31dress the same way or approximate
38:34each other. Um, we would probably have
38:37this Look at us right now with our hand
38:39gestures. We're literally mirroring each
38:41other's hand gestures to the point where
38:44our thumbs are precisely
38:46uh the same way. Why? Because we're
38:48comfortable with each other. We would
38:50lean in if we are
38:53in in in good synchrony. Our speech
38:56pattern
38:57uh would would synchronize.
39:00And um and to the point where you can
39:03actually work with individuals to calm
39:06them down or to see things your way or
39:09to appreciate, let's say in
39:10negotiations,
39:12to begin to be more receptive. People
39:16are more receptive if they can mirror
39:19your uh behaviors.
39:22So, people are more receptive if they
39:24can mirror your behavior. So, if I
39:27let you mirror my behavior, then you're
39:29going to be more receptive to what I
39:31have to say. Is that what you're saying?
39:34In general, we cannot be mimicking each
39:37other like it's a game. Mhm. Yeah, yeah.
39:40It becomes ridiculous.
39:42But,
39:43there's no way we can negotiate if
39:45you're screaming and I'm stoic.
39:49Yeah. It it just it doesn't happen. For
39:51instance, you and I probably
39:54are doing a pretty good job of just
39:57mirroring each other in the in the in
40:00the conversation. We are likely more
40:02likely to be successful,
40:04have more face time, and achieve more if
40:07we can talk to each other this way
40:09than if all of a sudden I decide to sit
40:14sideways,
40:15kick my feet up, and lean on my and my
40:19and my elbow.
40:21That gesture alone, even though it's a
40:23comfort display,
40:25doesn't put us in synchrony. And
40:27everything that I have ever found was
40:31even when I was talking to terrorists,
40:34even when talking to terrorists who
40:36absolutely hated me, hated a lot of
40:38other things,
40:41if I could just get them grounded to the
40:43point where we are talking
40:47basically the same way
40:50and using the same words.
40:53If they say my family, don't say wife
40:56and kids.
40:58Use family. Don't use terms of art. You
41:01know, if they say, "Well, what's the
41:03price?" Don't come back and say, "Well,
41:05the the the the
41:07the the points on this are That's not
41:09what they asked." That's a great way to
41:11demonstrate that you're not uh
41:14that you're not uh listening. And And
41:16the other thing I I always emphasize
41:19is that for years people said, "Well,
41:23try to reduce everything that's
41:25emotional
41:26uh so that it doesn't interfere."
41:30That's not how we evolved.
41:32That is absolutely not how we evolved.
41:34We evolved to deal with emotions because
41:38emotions keep us alive.
41:40When our amygdala
41:43uh senses a threat, it is there to uh
41:46deal with it. And anything negative
41:50rises to prominence.
41:52Uh that's one of the first things I
41:54teach.
41:55Uh if if it's really negative, it's it
41:58rises to prominence. We assess for it
42:00first. We deal with that first. And
42:03often in business, what we see is, you
42:06know, somebody had a hard time uh
42:08finding your location. They had a hard
42:10time parking.
42:12Then they had to go to the your
42:14receptionist who was on the phone and
42:17took about 7 minutes to even say good
42:19morning. And when they did, they did it
42:21with no alacrity.
42:23Then they have to go through security.
42:25Then they have to take the elevator
42:28that's crowded and then finally get to
42:30your office and
42:33you want them to jump right into the
42:35meeting without all that negativity that
42:39has been accrued.
42:42That's not how humans evolved.
42:45That is absolutely not how our species
42:47evolved. Our species evolved
42:50to deconflict that, to diminish that by
42:55first dealing with that. That's where
42:58storytelling in part came from, where we
43:00came and said, you know, I chased it. I
43:03was able to attack me, then I attacked
43:06back and you know, and then we we go
43:08through that whole storytelling which
43:10has mythical proportions and mythical
43:13aspects as archetypes. And if you
43:16subscribe to Jungian psychology,
43:19one of the arguments that I always use
43:21is this. How many of you have been in an
43:23argument
43:25and then 30 minutes later, you remember
43:28all the clever lines you should have
43:30said.
43:31We all have. And that's because the
43:34emotional brain hijacks neural activity.
43:38If you want the best out of people, if
43:40you want the best out of a relationship,
43:42vent that. Get that out.
43:45Give it time.
43:47Okay? And yes, you're going to have to
43:49invest that time
43:51and then move forward so that you can
43:55deal with the the the the transactional,
43:57the business and the and so forth.
44:01You have you referenced a few times
44:02different types of body language that
44:05I've exhibited that help you understand
44:07what I'm thinking going through. Um Yes.
44:09I think you second to go you referenced
44:10a glabella.
44:12And this brings me to something I read
44:14in your work about eyebrow knitting.
44:16Yeah. What is eyebrow knitting?
44:18So, this little area
44:21uh between your eyes is called the
44:23glabella. And the glabella is great
44:26because at
44:28at about well, we I've seen it in babies
44:31as early as
44:33three or four days, but uh very early on
44:36we begin to furrow. In other words, we
44:39push this together
44:41when we have doubts or we don't like
44:44something or we don't understand
44:45something. So, we we furrow the
44:48glabella. Uh some people call it uh
44:51eyebrow knitting because we are we have
44:53nicer eyebrows nowadays, not bushy like
44:56the old days.
44:57They don't come together like they used
45:00to.
45:01Um so, we uh
45:03a lot of those expressions of I don't
45:07understand, we we use with the squinted
45:10eyes um the the furrowed glabella. You
45:14know, sometimes we'll we'll touch our
45:17face or or scratch our face. Babies at
45:2147 seconds, which I have directly
45:24observed,
45:25uh if you shine a light at a newborn
45:28baby, it will
45:29furrow
45:31the chin
45:33that they don't like it. And uh in my
45:36presentations, I have a
45:38matching one of a 47-year-old man and a
45:4147-second-old baby both doing the same
45:44thing when they hear things they don't
45:46they don't like. So, we we begin to
45:49communicate quite a lot uh actually with
45:52with our faces.
45:53What about eyelid touching?
45:56Yeah. So, for a long time, including in
45:59some of my writing, um the theory was a
46:02lot of people cover their eyes, touch
46:05their eyes when they hear bad news. And
46:07you said, "Hey Joe, can you help me move
46:10this weekend?" Oh jeez, Steve.
46:13Right? You You see a lot of that.
46:16And I started to think about that
46:20about five or six years ago. And so I
46:23took some classes in anatomy, human
46:25anatomy. And I'm I'm pretty much
46:28convinced now
46:30that a lot of the facial touching,
46:33including the you know, touching of the
46:35eyes and so forth, has to do with the
46:38innervation of the fifth cranial nerve
46:41and the seventh cranial nerve. Now,
46:44some of your viewers may find this
46:46interesting. That nerve, which goes to
46:49our forehead and actually goes into our
46:52eyelids and so forth, and the seventh,
46:55which is the facial,
46:57is very short in distance to that part
47:00of the brain where it is received. And
47:02so I think,
47:04you know, I postulated, I wrote for
47:06Psychology Today that a lot of the
47:08reasons why we touch our face and why
47:11we
47:12touch our eyes, oh no,
47:16is because that pressure
47:18immediately goes to the brain and helps
47:23to relieve stress. And because the nerve
47:25is so short, right? We could massage our
47:27feet and achieve the same, but it's very
47:29far away.
47:31So I think a lot of facial touching,
47:32including eye touching, we do
47:35because of of its ability to Anytime
47:39there's stress, we pacify ourselves. And
47:42And by the way, it's very interesting.
47:441974,
47:45I was bored at the university. So there
47:49was a lab where you could actually watch
47:51children and study them at play. And
47:53they had some children there that were
47:54born blind. So they had never seen.
47:57And I was just blow uh blown away the
47:59first time I I saw a blind child who had
48:03never seen, heard some news that was not
48:06very good, and immediately covered their
48:08eyes, having never seen. And that's when
48:11I realized, okay, we are 2.4 million
48:15years old. This is uh hardwired in our
48:18DNA. This is part of our paleo circuits,
48:21as uh Dr. David Givens later taught me.
48:25And it has to do with how it feels. And
48:27that's why we touch our faces so much.
48:29So, it's typically
48:30a negative emotion and a form of
48:32self-soothing for that negative emotion.
48:35I think that's a good synopsis, but also
48:37keep in mind how often we touch our
48:39faces when we're having a nice time.
48:41Like when I'm reading, I find myself
48:43turning pages uh cuz I read very fast. I
48:46turn with my left hand, but I pacify or
48:49soothe myself by touching my my, you
48:52know, an appendage of a pose. Women will
48:55play with their hair.
48:57All day long our brain is asking us to
49:00do things to contribute uh to that. But,
49:05when there's something stressful, then,
49:07for instance, we go from like in
49:09negotiations, when somebody throws a
49:11number we don't like, we'll go from
49:13touching our face to scratching our face
49:16because the brain is saying, "Hey,
49:18do something more powerful that will
49:21keep me in what we call homeo- uh
49:24stasis." So, um to answer your question,
49:27yes, but it also applies to when we're
49:29really enjoying a moment. What about our
49:32lips? You talked a second ago about like
49:33pursed lips and stuff. What kind of
49:35clues did did the lips give away?
49:36Yeah, so for me, the lips are the
49:40um
49:41the seismograph. The The lips are like
49:43the emotional seismograph of the body.
49:46When we are
49:49comfortable and confident, our lips are
49:52full of blood, their color changes. The
49:55minute we hear something we don't like,
49:58blood actually begins to leave the lips
50:00and they become narrower
50:02and then we begin to tighten them.
50:05You know, if somebody says something I
50:06don't like, I might go hmm,
50:09right?
50:10Or we begin to bite the lip because
50:14we're stressed or we pluck it,
50:17pull on it, do all all sorts of of
50:20things to to soothe it. But the lips get
50:22very show a
50:24a lot of nervous emotion
50:27when we're under stress. So they're
50:29they're very much as is the jaw. Like
50:32for instance, if you said something I
50:34might not agree with,
50:36my I probably shift my jaw because it
50:39when you shift your jaw, it puts
50:41pressure on the TMJ
50:43and that alone says to the brain,
50:46go somewhere else.
50:48Don't don't uh
50:50uh you know, don't struggle too much
50:51with that. So, um we're always doing
50:53something physical to counter anything
50:56that the brain might be undergoing.
51:00Tell me about the suprasternal notch.
51:02So, the suprasternal notch, um it has
51:06other names. Uh you could call it the
51:08little neck dimple.
51:10Uh this little area right at the bottom
51:13of your your throat. It's a a deep uh
51:16indentation.
51:18This is the most vulnerable part of the
51:21human body. All air, food, nutrients,
51:25blood, electricity,
51:27oxygen, everything goes through there.
51:30And what happens is and one of the
51:32things that I found was that there was
51:34nothing in the literature in 1975,
51:37'76. I'm looking and I'm noticing that
51:41when people are nervous, they
51:42immediately cover their neck. They touch
51:45their neck, you know, in the literature,
51:47you hear about, "Oh, she um you know,
51:49clutched her pearls." Right?
51:53Rubbing that men tend to do it more
51:55robustly because of testosterone, women
51:58tend to more directly touch the
52:01supersternal notch.
52:03And what I found is when there's lack of
52:06confidence, insecurities, fear,
52:08apprehensions, or concerns that people
52:10will go, "Oh my god. Did you see that?"
52:14Right? Oh, it's gone. It's back.
52:16And you know, why is it all directed at
52:20this little area of the neck? And why do
52:22men clutch their necks and massage their
52:25necks when they're It's the worst thing
52:27you can do in negotiations, by the way,
52:29is touch your neck because what you're
52:31transmitting is weakness.
52:34Somebody who's confident is never
52:36touches the neck. You just don't. You
52:39don't go anywhere near the neck. And you
52:41don't ventilate because you're what
52:43you're saying is you're you're getting
52:45to me. Ventilating behaviors. Wait, so
52:48when you say ventilate, you mean giving
52:50yourself Yeah. So it could be
52:52So to ventilating behaviors Okay. are
52:55behaviors of weakness because your body
52:58temperature has changed 1/250 of a
53:01second. And what you're revealing is
53:03something negative is getting to you. So
53:05you
53:06you don't do that. But here's the
53:08behavior, the neck touching, neck
53:10covering, covering of the supersternal
53:12notch. And there's another behavior You
53:15know, earlier we talked about we were
53:16surrounded by predators.
53:19And one of the behaviors we did was to
53:21cover our mouths or hold still when we
53:24hear a noise. The third behavior is to
53:27cover the neck.
53:29To cover the neck because
53:31large felines always go for the neck.
53:35And so
53:37the brain didn't doesn't have a closet
53:39full of ties.
53:42It has about four choices.
53:45And those four behaviors
53:48are exquisite.
53:50It's proven over time that if we cover
53:52our mouth, cover the neck, don't move,
53:56they work pretty well. So, we don't have
53:58to choose a lot of colors. And the other
54:00thing sometimes you'll see people do is
54:03when um you see this at here in Florida
54:07and we certainly saw it in November
54:09after the hurricane, people come to see
54:11their house and they cover their their
54:12head, hands are up here.
54:15Oh my god, you know, why why why do we
54:17do that? Again, large felids.
54:22These are shortcuts. This is heuristics
54:24that have prevailed. They say, "Oh, no,
54:28right?"
54:30And you and and you say, "Well, we're no
54:32longer surrounded by them." Well, go to
54:34India. There were 238
54:37attacks last year.
54:40It is in our DNA. It is performed
54:43out of necessity to to to keep us alive.
54:46So, we have these um
54:48these reactions, but um so, I look at
54:50the I certainly I look at the at the
54:53lips and the
54:55and the neck as as good places for
54:57information.
54:59I was thinking then about why yeah, you
55:00hold your head, but you also hold your
55:02head when you see something that's
55:03fallen over.
55:04So, if like you've seen like a building
55:06falling down in an earthquake, you
55:07immediately I the other day, it was an
55:09old car and it was and it was parked at
55:12an angle on a road that was at an angle
55:15and they forgot to set the the brake.
55:17And I'm watching it slowly slide. I'm
55:20like
55:21and I found myself I teach this stuff
55:24with my hands up here.
55:26And unfortunately, it was across the
55:28street and I couldn't get to it fast
55:30enough and it didn't do any damage, but
55:33but you realize these uh, these
55:35shortcuts
55:36are with us for a purpose. Much of the
55:40work you do as an FBI agent is some form
55:42of negotiation and you spend a lot of
55:44time teaching people how to be good
55:46negotiators as well. You mentioned
55:48negotiation a second ago.
55:50I'm a business person. I do lots of
55:52negotiations whether it's with clients
55:54or suppliers or interviews. You know,
55:56I'm interviewing people all the time
55:57which I consider to be a negotiation.
55:59How do I improve my negotiation skills?
56:01What are the things I should be thinking
56:02about as I go into the negotiation?
56:05Well,
56:06uh, you know, they warned me. You ask
56:08profound questions.
56:10Um,
56:11and you're right. In in the FBI, I mean,
56:13when you're trying to convince someone
56:16to tell us the truth and put themselves
56:19in jeopardy, that is nothing but
56:22negotiations. You may look at it as
56:25interviewing,
56:26but like you said, even a conversation,
56:30you know, I look at negotiations in the
56:32same way that I look at interviewing.
56:35It's in in in the simplest form, it's
56:39effective communication with a purpose.
56:45So, you say, "Well, that's highly
56:47simplistic. I've never heard that."
56:48Well, think of it.
56:50Well, what is the purpose? Okay, well,
56:52we'll get to that in a minute. Either
56:54you have something I need or want or
56:56that, but there has to be communication
57:00and there has to be an understanding of
57:02of what I mean and what I intend and and
57:07so forth. So, for me, it's a reminder
57:10when I first came into the FBI,
57:13an old-timer said to me,
57:15"Interviewing isn't about the
57:17confession." And I looked at him like,
57:19"What?
57:20What do you mean?
57:22Excuse me? What do you mean not about
57:24the confession?" He says, "You'll get
57:25the confession.
57:27Interviewing is about face time.
57:31If you can get people to talk to you for
57:342 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours,
57:37in one case I I interviewed an
57:39individual for for 12 hours.
57:42We you know
57:45they'll tell you everything you need to
57:46know, but you got to keep them in the
57:48room.
57:49And so I always view negotiations of
57:52number one is how do I communicate with
57:55you in a way that you'll want to talk to
57:58me
57:59for however long it takes to get to that
58:03purpose
58:05which is the transaction. Now, you know,
58:08if if I'm evaluating you to for your
58:11services or if I'm negotiating for for
58:15for prices, you know, I want to hear
58:18what you have to say and I want to lay
58:20out
58:21what um I'm interested in achieving
58:25and then reconciling or working around
58:28whatever discrepancies or issues
58:32that there may be.
58:35I think when we look at negotiations
58:39that way, we can say, "Well, that means
58:42I got to do a lot of stuff up front."
58:45Which is who am I communicating with?
58:47Who am I going to negotiate with? What's
58:49the negotiating style? Are they stoic?
58:52Do they come in? Are they Do they throw
58:54things down? I mean, I've I've been I've
58:56been in negotiations where opposing
58:59counsel came in and literally walked
59:01into the room, didn't even say good
59:03morning, just threw the things down and
59:05said, "I want to hear the numbers."
59:08Okay,
59:10then how do we begin to deal with that?
59:14Because someone that comes in and is
59:17aggressive and so forth, you've got to
59:19deal with.
59:20What do you do? Do you rise to their
59:21aggression or do you try to bring them
59:22down to your position? Great question.
59:26The worst thing you can do is rise rise
59:29to that. You begin to dominate them
59:32by taking control of time.
59:36Whoever controls time controls.
59:41And so they come in, they throw the
59:43things down. So usually, you know, we
59:47start with Well, good morning to you,
59:50too.
59:51Uh yeah, yeah, let's let's let's cut to
59:54the chase.
59:58And then the whole team I'm working with
1:00:00knows we're going to slow things down.
1:00:03We are not going to be working at that
1:00:05pace. Because if you work at that pace,
1:00:08they're taking control.
1:00:10And so we slow things down.
1:00:13And there's several strategies. You can
1:00:16become All of a sudden, you can become
1:00:18very visual.
1:00:19And say, all right, we're going to, you
1:00:21know,
1:00:22write this down, and we're going to put
1:00:25this here. We're going to put, you know,
1:00:27and then this is this is the difference
1:00:29of, you know, there's a lot of
1:00:30strategies. But the first thing is we've
1:00:34got to get that person to understand
1:00:37that we negotiate, hopefully, as equals.
1:00:43But if the perception is always
1:00:46that that person is negotiating as the
1:00:50bully
1:00:51or is always in charge, you're never
1:00:54going to have equity. Now,
1:00:57I've had a lot of clients that that have
1:00:59said, "Hey, you know, I've tried all
1:01:00your strategies, and you know, this this
1:01:03guy I'm dealing with is is just he's
1:01:06crass. He's just a bully. He comes in
1:01:09and he stuff like and I and So, one of
1:01:11the questions I always ask is is he the
1:01:14only source? Is Is he or she the only
1:01:17source? Number one. And number two is
1:01:21how long are you willing to tolerate
1:01:24this person?
1:01:26Because we failed to to look at that. He
1:01:28gives you headaches. You don't sleep
1:01:30well every time you go to this thinking
1:01:32of one client in particular. You come
1:01:34away with a nervous stomach. He get and
1:01:37you know
1:01:39how long are you willing to tolerate
1:01:40that? If you're willing to tolerate it
1:01:42then you know, he's not going to change
1:01:44his style.
1:01:46Then you come in and we we change uh our
1:01:50exposure.
1:01:51So we're not going to expose all of our
1:01:53staff to that kind of negativity.
1:01:56Uh we send in our best person and say
1:01:58look here are the numbers and we work
1:02:00with that.
1:02:01But there are ways to to to to dealing
1:02:04with the with the very toxic
1:02:07uh but we don't allow them to get away
1:02:09with everything nor think that they're
1:02:11in charge and we do it in in in subtle
1:02:13ways and we uh sort of derail their
1:02:17agenda. Maybe their agenda based on past
1:02:21meetings was to come in and just throw
1:02:24these things at us very quickly.
1:02:28Then we have to adjust to that. So there
1:02:31has to be rehearsed strategies for for
1:02:34dealing with that. One of the things
1:02:36your work made me think about is how
1:02:38important it is
1:02:40to literally like write down the goal of
1:02:43my negotiation before I go into the
1:02:44negotiation or else you might get swept
1:02:46up in the emotion of it and the the sort
1:02:48of heat of the moment the moment.
1:02:50Yeah, you you wouldn't be the first one
1:02:52to find yourself in a meeting
1:02:54negotiating and all of a sudden you're
1:02:56you know, it's like what are what are we
1:02:59actually negotiating for?
1:03:01And um
1:03:03and so that's why I like the the
1:03:04simplicity of um effective communication
1:03:08with a purpose as a form of negotiations
1:03:11but to also understand what is my role.
1:03:15What is my role and what is my purpose
1:03:18in being there?
1:03:20Because many times we go into
1:03:21negotiations and the chief financial
1:03:23officer is there. Ding.
1:03:26Uh sometimes we go in there and you
1:03:28know, your first assistant is always uh
1:03:31there also, but you also have uh
1:03:34in-office counsel that is in attendance.
1:03:37What's their role?
1:03:39And what is my role? You know, something
1:03:41so simple as what are you going to do?
1:03:44Look straight ahead the whole time?
1:03:47Your you know, your attorney is
1:03:49speaking?
1:03:50Or are you going to look at him? Well,
1:03:52we know from the research that by
1:03:55looking at uh the person who's actually
1:03:57talking on your side actually
1:04:00potentiates the gravity of what he's
1:04:02saying. That uh at the most emphatic
1:04:06points at when that attorney uh makes,
1:04:09um and you did this earlier, you want to
1:04:11steeple because steeple is the most
1:04:14powerful gesture that we have to convey
1:04:17confidence. Steepling is in this sort of
1:04:19hand Is this is is this? Former German
1:04:22Chancellor Angela Merkel did this a lot.
1:04:24You see uh Musk do this a lot. You see
1:04:28uh Steve Jobs used to a lot of pictures
1:04:30of Steve Jobs doing that. But, you know,
1:04:33you reserve that for that point in time
1:04:36when you want to emphasize.
1:04:39And so, the worst thing you can do is
1:04:41just to sit there uh dormant. And in
1:04:44fact, we have research and it's called
1:04:47the still face experiments. And that is
1:04:49that the worst thing you can do is sit
1:04:51at a meeting and hold a still face.
1:04:55You're perceived as a threat. You're
1:04:58perceived as less trustworthy. You're
1:05:01perceived as insignificant.
1:05:03Corner of your mouth are down. Eye roll
1:05:05to the to the right, Steven. That's how
1:05:08you're perceived.
1:05:11And that's and that's what happens. Uh
1:05:13the experiments, which were done first
1:05:15with babies,
1:05:17found that if you take a baby, and it's
1:05:19called the still face experiments, if
1:05:21you take a baby
1:05:22and uh you look away and look back and
1:05:25uh and smile, the baby's content. You
1:05:27can do that several times, but on the
1:05:29last one, you turn around and you hold
1:05:31very still.
1:05:33The babies become
1:05:35incontrollable. They They They have
1:05:38fits. They're really troubled by that.
1:05:41So, the experimenters said, "Well, yeah,
1:05:43but what age does that
1:05:45uh leave us?" So, they decided to do it
1:05:47with adults.
1:05:49Adults do the same thing. If you and I
1:05:52are talking and we're exchanging faces,
1:05:55the worst thing I can do is then sit
1:05:57there
1:05:59It is unnerving.
1:06:00You find it disconcerting. Yeah. And
1:06:03what the brain perceives is a threat.
1:06:06And you lose trustworthiness. Because
1:06:09you can't read what this person's
1:06:11thinking either way. I'd rather you be
1:06:12up unhappy, then at least I can put that
1:06:14in a box. Yeah, well, that's one way to
1:06:16to look at it. I'm not sure that anybody
1:06:18knows the the precise reason for it, but
1:06:22what we do understand is that the still
1:06:25face, which if you're in a virtual call,
1:06:29you want to nod, you want to tilt your
1:06:31head, you want to make uh different
1:06:33gestures, but the the worst thing you
1:06:35can do is hold still. And then in
1:06:37negotiations, when you're talking to the
1:06:40team and saying, "Look, when we're going
1:06:42in there, you know, I don't want anybody
1:06:44to just sit there. I want expressions uh
1:06:46and I and when someone is speaking, you
1:06:49know, you're looking at them uh in the
1:06:51same way that the other side would do.
1:06:54But you have to plan. Now, the other
1:06:56thing I find with negotiators,
1:06:58uh one thing I did in the FBI is I
1:07:01always planned my interviews in
1:07:03exquisite detail.
1:07:05Who would enter the room
1:07:08first? Who would say what? Where I would
1:07:11sit? Who gets offered water and when?
1:07:14Because I need to be in control.
1:07:18Who's going to say what?
1:07:20These are things people don't think
1:07:22about, but at the levels
1:07:25with the people that I deal with, you
1:07:27have to have a certain amount of
1:07:29advantage.
1:07:31You have to have a certain amount of
1:07:33psychological leverage to say, "Look,
1:07:36you may be the world's largest
1:07:38manufacturer of this, and I'm just
1:07:41starting out,
1:07:43but I am not down here."
1:07:48And so, I would appreciate if you would
1:07:51begin to value me.
1:07:53And I do that by doing certain things in
1:07:56the manner that I walk in. Who walks in
1:07:59first? Where do I sit?
1:08:02What gestures do I use to point, right?
1:08:05So, you never use your finger, you
1:08:07always use the full hand in the vertical
1:08:10position.
1:08:11You take command of the situation, and
1:08:15it looks aesthetically pleasing. Oh,
1:08:17isn't it nice?
1:08:19He's offering me something to drink, or
1:08:22the assistant or someone says, "What
1:08:25would you Would you like some tea? How
1:08:27would you like it?" and so forth. And
1:08:29what we're actually witnessing is the
1:08:32transformation
1:08:33of I You have now
1:08:37become the dominant person by becoming
1:08:40the archetypal the father or mother
1:08:43figure.
1:08:44Because you're offering something.
1:08:45Because you're offering it, and you're
1:08:47in control of of of the food and and the
1:08:50brain. You know, people often wondered,
1:08:52"Well, why You know, why was it in
1:08:54Stockholm, Sweden, back in the '70s that
1:08:57the Stockholm Syndrome took hold so fast
1:08:59with those bank robbers,
1:09:01where they had such an effect on their
1:09:04victims that within hours the the the
1:09:09victims were defending the the bank
1:09:11robbers. It was very simple.
1:09:14They became the father figure
1:09:16and the hostages became the children.
1:09:19So, I actually didn't know that story.
1:09:20What happened was there was a bank
1:09:22robbery and in Stockholm and the bank
1:09:26robbers went in, held the the the
1:09:29victims hostage. Eventually, they were
1:09:32rescued, but what they found was that in
1:09:35a in a matter of hours, the victims were
1:09:38rising to the defense of the criminals.
1:09:42And it became known as the Stockholm
1:09:45syndrome. And what it showed us was the
1:09:50robbers became the archetype of the
1:09:52parent and the hostages became the
1:09:56children and in an instant, they became
1:09:59sub subservient. Is that what happens in
1:10:02domestic abuse cases as well?
1:10:03Yes.
1:10:04You nailed it. You nailed it
1:10:06beautifully. Yeah.
1:10:08You're the the first person to get that
1:10:11right away. And and that's why you often
1:10:14see this in domestic abuse cases and you
1:10:17say, "How can she She just got beat up.
1:10:19How can she defend him?" Usually the the
1:10:23case and you realize, "Oh my god, we
1:10:26have a like a Stockholm syndrome where
1:10:28he's the provider. He's the only one
1:10:30working or this or that." But, you know,
1:10:33getting back to negotiations, I think
1:10:35it's it's one of those things that I
1:10:38insist that if you go into negotiations
1:10:41that you be treated at least as an
1:10:43equal.
1:10:45And that the minute people start to look
1:10:47down on you,
1:10:49it makes for a very difficult
1:10:51conversation. So, when you think about
1:10:54walking into the room and all these
1:10:55where you sit,
1:10:57If you're walking into the room to
1:10:59interview a terrorist, Right. are you
1:11:02trying to walk into the room first, or
1:11:03are you trying to walk into the room
1:11:04last? Do you send your team in to walk
1:11:06in first, then you show up last?
1:11:08And what what are you thinking about
1:11:10seating positions?
1:11:11Right. So, one of the things that I
1:11:14always insisted is I would walk into the
1:11:17room first.
1:11:20So, they would already be in there. No,
1:11:21no, no. I We would We would walk to the
1:11:24room with them. with them, and then I
1:11:27would just make them wait there a
1:11:28minute. I'd open it, I'd take a look,
1:11:30and I'd say, "Oops, just want to make
1:11:32sure the room is safe and there's nobody
1:11:34in here. You know, I've walked into
1:11:36people before."
1:11:38That begins to establish my dominance.
1:11:41And then I would say,
1:11:43"Why don't you take a a seat right
1:11:47there."
1:11:48You know, people ask me, "Well, why you
1:11:51know,
1:11:51why are you being so nice to these
1:11:54these criminals?" Well, first of all,
1:11:56I go back to what that old-timer said. I
1:11:59want face time. I don't care what it
1:12:01takes to get face time.
1:12:03But I also want to be in charge.
1:12:06And if by being nice to him and pointing
1:12:09to the nice chair there achieves that,
1:12:13then
1:12:15so much for me. And then I always try to
1:12:17sit in a in a way that
1:12:20I sit higher. Now, in the case of
1:12:23Ramsey, we'd literally get the room
1:12:25ahead of time and we would change the
1:12:27the the furniture so that I always sat
1:12:30about an inch to 2 inches higher than he
1:12:33did. He never noticed that. Ramsey was
1:12:36the the guy whose cigarette was
1:12:38quivering. was quivering. In the end, we
1:12:40ended up doing 37 interviews. They were
1:12:45all done in hotel rooms, mostly in the
1:12:48Orlando area.
1:12:49And we would go in ahead of time
1:12:52and uh we would just uh arrange the
1:12:55furniture or bring in furniture, but I
1:12:57always sat higher than him. He never
1:12:59understood that. He always sat on the
1:13:00couch, which um somehow uh
1:13:05about an about that much was shaved from
1:13:08the couch so that it always sat um
1:13:11a little lower. And so um he was always
1:13:15literally slightly looking up to us.
1:13:19And then we controlled when we would
1:13:21take breaks. And I I you know and I was
1:13:23always attentive and I would say, you
1:13:26know, would you like something to drink
1:13:27now? I said, well,
1:13:30this is such a good subject. Why don't
1:13:31we take the break now?
1:13:33And you you have the drink now and then
1:13:36we'll
1:13:37so we can uh continue. What he didn't
1:13:40realize was that um I was establishing
1:13:45uh control over him
1:13:48by sort of dictating uh it's it's it it
1:13:51would be no, you know, I'm sure your
1:13:53listeners might be saying, boy, that's
1:13:55manipulative. Yeah, but in in the
1:13:57transactional phase, it's no different
1:13:59than you you saying to your crew, I need
1:14:02to take a break right now and go to the
1:14:04restroom. Okay, take a break. I don't I
1:14:06don't think that much of it. But over
1:14:09time, what happens is he begins to
1:14:13relinquish
1:14:14a lot of that forcefulness
1:14:17that he'd love to exhibit. He'd love to
1:14:21be in charge, but I'm not permitting it.
1:14:24And sometimes he he he would say, well,
1:14:27I could use a smoke break right now. And
1:14:29I'd say,
1:14:30hang on a second cuz what you just said
1:14:32was really interesting. And my partner,
1:14:36Mrs. Terry Moody, I I I loved her. She
1:14:38was a great partner. She looked at me
1:14:40like, really? You're going to push it
1:14:42that much further? Mhm. But
1:14:45it worked uh to the point where
1:14:48um I mean, here's a guy who had his
1:14:50attorney's phone number on him at all
1:14:52times, and he never used that.
1:14:55You mentioned the height of the chaz.
1:14:58What what does height matter in this
1:15:00context? Cuz I was thinking as well
1:15:02about Zoom, and the interesting thing
1:15:04about now about Zoom, and we talked
1:15:06about this before we started recording,
1:15:07and the fact that most of our
1:15:08conversations are happening happening
1:15:09digitally now, is we don't often think
1:15:11about height. And I I'm sometimes on a
1:15:15call uh with one of my colleagues or
1:15:18partners, and I'll often ask them before
1:15:20the client or
1:15:22whoever we're doing business with joins
1:15:23the call to adjust the height because
1:15:25they are like they're like looking down
1:15:27into the lens, or they're looking up
1:15:29into the lens, which I think is also
1:15:31suboptimal. Good term, suboptimal.
1:15:33There's a lot to be said about height,
1:15:36just as there is a beauty dividend,
1:15:39right? So, the beauty dividend, and you
1:15:41can look this up, the beauty dividend,
1:15:44well researched, basically says you're
1:15:47going to earn 8% per year
1:15:50the rest of your life just if you are
1:15:54good-looking. That's the beauty
1:15:56dividend. You can go online and look at
1:15:58all the studies and the statistics that
1:16:00go with it. There's also a height
1:16:02dividend, and it is universal.
1:16:05If you look at Americans that are 6 ft 2
1:16:08in, so a little taller than me, accounts
1:16:11for about 3% of the population.
1:16:16Unless you go to the Fortune 500
1:16:19companies, and then they account for 39%
1:16:24of all CEOs at 6'2.
1:16:28Whoa.
1:16:30That, my friend, is an order of
1:16:34increase.
1:16:36And you say, are taller people smarter?
1:16:40Uh no.
1:16:42No, it has to do with the benefit of of
1:16:46being tall.
1:16:48There is a dividend, and so we tend to
1:16:52see that across the world. Do a dividend
1:16:56for anyone that doesn't know basically
1:16:57means a like a benefit or a reward. One
1:17:00could think of it as.
1:17:00An advantage. You you have an advantage.
1:17:04So with Ramsey, what was the the
1:17:05dividend by you making your character
1:17:07just an inch taller? What were you
1:17:08doing, Tim? You're taking away his power
1:17:10a little bit? Making you more powerful?
1:17:12I had to because he had all the cards.
1:17:16He was the spy.
1:17:18He had all the evidence
1:17:20in his head or in his possession or the
1:17:23Russians had it. The Russians weren't
1:17:25going to give it to us. They're the
1:17:27enemy.
1:17:28They said, "Too bad, mates. We've got
1:17:30all your secrets." They had so many
1:17:31secrets that they measured it in weight,
1:17:33not just in pages. The other problem I
1:17:36was dealing with was is his IQ.
1:17:41He had the second highest IQ in the that
1:17:44the army ever recorded since World War
1:17:46II.
1:17:48He could talk on any subject, quantum
1:17:50physics to whatever. When you have a
1:17:53superior intellect,
1:17:56in his case, which was true, or you're
1:17:59dealing with someone, let's say, who is
1:18:02malignant narcissist. So, they account
1:18:05for about 2% of the population, but
1:18:07about 20% of CEOs.
1:18:11So, your mental your malignant
1:18:12narcissist who overvalues themselves
1:18:17and tends to devalue others. And in my
1:18:20case with him, he had narcissistic
1:18:22traits, which I could I could deal with,
1:18:25but his superior intellect
1:18:28was breathtaking, and he had perfect
1:18:31recall.
1:18:33Uh, so in a way it was frightening
1:18:34because all he had to do was transport
1:18:37himself to another country and he could
1:18:40sell all the secrets that he had
1:18:42memorized. So, I had to play a a certain
1:18:45role, but I also couldn't let him take
1:18:48charge of the investigation and not one
1:18:51that had put
1:18:53England, Germany,
1:18:55all of Western Europe in jeopardy, as
1:18:59well as Canada and the United States. I
1:19:01could not afford the United States
1:19:03government couldn't afford
1:19:05to have him be flippant with the
1:19:09knowledge that that he knew, especially
1:19:12once we knew that he had compromised the
1:19:14nuclear go codes. Do you mind if I pause
1:19:17this conversation for a moment? I want
1:19:18to talk about our show's sponsor today,
1:19:20which is Shopify. I've always believed
1:19:22that the biggest cost in business isn't
1:19:24failure, it's the time you waste trying
1:19:26to make decisions. Time spent
1:19:27hesitating, overthinking, or waiting for
1:19:29the right moment. When I started my
1:19:31first company at 20 years old, I had no
1:19:33experience and no money. What I did have
1:19:36was an idea and the willingness to move
1:19:38fast, and that made all the difference.
1:19:40If you've been thinking about starting
1:19:41your own business, Shopify makes this
1:19:43entire process so much easier. With
1:19:46thousands of customizable templates, you
1:19:48don't need coding or design skills, you
1:19:50just need a willingness to start.
1:19:51Shopify connects all your sales channels
1:19:53from your website to social media, and
1:19:55it handles the back-end payments,
1:19:56shipping, and taxes, too. So, that you
1:19:58can stay focused on moving forward and
1:20:00growing your business. If you're ready
1:20:02to start, visit shopify.com/bartlett
1:20:05and sign up for a £1 per month trial
1:20:07period. That's shopify.com/bartlett.
1:20:11What about posture?
1:20:12Because that's kind of one way to make
1:20:14yourself taller. Yeah.
1:20:16Um are there any clues in someone's
1:20:18posture and how important is sort of
1:20:21playing with our posture to create a
1:20:22different impression?
1:20:24Yeah, absolutely. Not just Not just
1:20:26posture, but uh territory. So, I look at
1:20:30posture
1:20:32as you know, when we when we look
1:20:34confident, shoulders back, our
1:20:37breathing. To me, posture starts with
1:20:40the brain, how calm we are in our
1:20:42breathing.
1:20:44I was again in Valencia at this at this
1:20:47event and a lady came up to me and she
1:20:49says, "You're getting ready to go on the
1:20:52stage. How can you not be nervous?" And
1:20:54I said, "Well, I am nervous.
1:20:56I'm just hiding it.
1:20:58I'm acting like
1:21:00uh I'm I'm in control, but I've I've
1:21:02learned to do that because you don't
1:21:04want to look like a nervous FBI agent.
1:21:07Trust me. You want to look cool, calm,
1:21:09and and collected. In negotiations,
1:21:13um you don't want to
1:21:15look needy. You don't want to look
1:21:19desperate. Um and at the same time,
1:21:23you don't want to come across as
1:21:28you're indifferent. And sometimes,
1:21:31that demeanor, that posture, those
1:21:33gestures, the the totality of it has a
1:21:36lot of meaning. Now, you have to keep in
1:21:38mind, a lot of successful businessmen
1:21:40I'm running into are actually on the
1:21:42spectrum, right? So, the autism
1:21:44spectrum. And so, they don't make as
1:21:47much eye contact. They may have
1:21:49behaviors that are irregular. I have one
1:21:52I deal with who has Asperger's, and so
1:21:55he
1:21:55sometimes jerks. And so, there's a lot
1:21:58of uh discomfort I find from others in
1:22:01reading him. I don't have any problem. I
1:22:03just see it, okay, this is his
1:22:05uh normal behaviors and we get it
1:22:07around. But, you can tell a lot
1:22:10about a person when you've invested in
1:22:14things. You're doing your due diligence
1:22:15and you're talking to people.
1:22:18Yeah, you can look at the numbers all
1:22:20day long, but you're also are looking at
1:22:23the non-verbals and saying, you know, uh
1:22:27are they communicating confidence or are
1:22:29they communicating desire or need or
1:22:34or any kind of frailty? I I was just
1:22:37reflecting on a few of the interviews
1:22:38I've had recently. We've been
1:22:39interviewing for one particular very
1:22:40very senior role. And there were two
1:22:42final stage candidates and I was just
1:22:44reflecting as you were saying how one of
1:22:46the final stage candidates was extremely
1:22:49calm and sat back in their chair and the
1:22:51other one was very much leaning forward.
1:22:53And upon reflection, the second
1:22:55candidate wanted the job a lot more, but
1:22:57the first candidate was probably more
1:23:00experienced, more confident, and had
1:23:02higher self-worth. And their ability to
1:23:04be so relaxed in that environment and
1:23:07kind of own the chair in in my boardroom
1:23:11was actually
1:23:12it actually made me kind of want them
1:23:15more
1:23:16because they were signaling to me that
1:23:17they had lots of options.
1:23:19They weren't intimidated. They weren't
1:23:21scared. They weren't nervous about this
1:23:22opportunity. You know,
1:23:24that's an interesting observation,
1:23:26Stephen. And it's and it's a
1:23:28very good that you observed the the
1:23:31discrepancy. One of the things that I
1:23:33look for is what is their role going to
1:23:36be.
1:23:38I I don't mind that somebody is nervous.
1:23:41Um I myself early on
1:23:45coming from a humble background was
1:23:47often nervous.
1:23:50I tend to focus on the things that most
1:23:54organizations
1:23:57don't put into their plan to look for.
1:24:01One of them is problem-solving.
1:24:05Give me a list of the problems you have
1:24:07solved.
1:24:09Most quite most people when they hire,
1:24:12they never ask that question.
1:24:14They tell, you know, I can do Excel. I I
1:24:17know Microsoft. I That's great.
1:24:20Please tell me what problems you have
1:24:22solved
1:24:23at at at your last job.
1:24:27And and you know, how efficiently did
1:24:29you do it? How do you know if they
1:24:31solved the problem or they were on a
1:24:32team where someone else solved the
1:24:34problem? Because one of the things that
1:24:37I said, you know, look for is is how
1:24:39many instances they tell and how they
1:24:43describe it because here's what's
1:24:45interesting. The person who solves the
1:24:47problem
1:24:49goes into the detail and feels the
1:24:52emotion of the person that's telling the
1:24:55story
1:24:57only conveys it, but doesn't know the
1:25:00emotion that is attached to solving it.
1:25:03Mhm.
1:25:03So when you when that little child
1:25:06finally figures out how to, you know,
1:25:09you give them a trick lock where
1:25:12wood things have to go this way or this
1:25:15way and then the little thing opens.
1:25:17When they come back and tell you that,
1:25:19you see the gravity defying behavior,
1:25:21the arching of the eyebrows, the bright
1:25:23eyes and say, "And I solved it. I solved
1:25:26it. I got in there." Yeah, right?
1:25:28The problem the person that's just
1:25:30telling you this story doesn't know the
1:25:32emotion that goes with it. Mhm. The
1:25:34other thing that, you know, I I I look
1:25:38for is and
1:25:40they may be nervous or whatever, is how
1:25:43good are are they at observing.
1:25:47This is the one question that
1:25:50um
1:25:51has uh actually saved a lot of companies
1:25:55when I say, "Make sure that from now on
1:25:57you ask, how good are you observing?"
1:26:00And they'll say, "Well, observing what?"
1:26:02Everything that matters.
1:26:04People,
1:26:05events, opportunities.
1:26:08Right? If you come to me and say, "Well,
1:26:10I can code this." Okay, that's great.
1:26:13But in the position that you're going to
1:26:15be in, you're going to be managing
1:26:17people. How good are you at observing
1:26:20people?
1:26:21The great thing about companies that
1:26:24that
1:26:25seek this is All right, so when you go
1:26:28and you business you're you're going to
1:26:30see your subsidiary,
1:26:32what do you what are you looking for?
1:26:34What are you observing? Well, I want to
1:26:36look at the books and
1:26:38How about the attitude of the people?
1:26:40Are people content? Are they happy? Or
1:26:43do they all look like they're
1:26:44constipated? I
1:26:46been into companies that the minute I
1:26:47walk in, I go, "Oh, jeez, you got
1:26:49management problems here." And the guy
1:26:51goes,
1:26:52"Oh, did somebody tell you?"
1:26:54I I I said, "Well, you know, I'd have to
1:26:56be clinically stupid not to recognize
1:26:58that all these people are walking around
1:27:00with their heads hung low,
1:27:02that they make no eye contact, nobody
1:27:04they pass each other in the subway, and
1:27:06they don't talk to each other. You got
1:27:08management issues here."
1:27:11And it you know, and it's like they
1:27:14hired for this skill,
1:27:18but is that really what you need when
1:27:20you actually need somebody that is a
1:27:23great
1:27:24observer? What about confidence? Is this
1:27:27something that you're born with? Or do
1:27:28you think confidence can be trained into
1:27:31somebody?
1:27:32I think confidence can absolutely be
1:27:35trained. Coming from Cuba, where we lost
1:27:37everything, arriving as a refugee,
1:27:40having nothing, and then all of a sudden
1:27:43uh the FBI asked me to become I didn't
1:27:46apply to the FBI. The FBI actually came
1:27:49to me and asked me to apply. And then
1:27:51all of a sudden, I said, "Are
1:27:53Are you guys serious?"
1:27:55It's like, yeah, I'm 23 years old, you
1:27:58know, I'm barely learning how to shave.
1:28:02And with no confidence whatsoever, and
1:28:05they teach you to be confident.
1:28:09You can teach confidence. And what I
1:28:12tell people is the easiest way to learn
1:28:16confidence is to be confident about one
1:28:21thing.
1:28:23I don't care if it's you stack papers
1:28:27better than anybody else.
1:28:30I don't care if it's the way you make
1:28:33your
1:28:34your bed. Any small thing.
1:28:40Show me that you're confident. Show me
1:28:42that that's better than anybody else's.
1:28:45And the minute you can be confident
1:28:48about one thing,
1:28:50now you can be confident about two
1:28:53things. And then you can be confident
1:28:56about three things. This nonsense that I
1:28:58often see people say, "Well, just come
1:29:00in and be confident." Uh I think that's
1:29:03nonsense. I think you have to learn and
1:29:06your your physiology has to learn to be
1:29:09confident about one thing.
1:29:12You know, with me, I was confident in
1:29:15playing football. Okay? I was fast. I
1:29:18could do certain things. I was confident
1:29:20about that. I I knew that in basketball,
1:29:24I could shoot a three-pointer. Okay.
1:29:27Confident about that.
1:29:29But not confident about a a a host of
1:29:32other things. To be in a room full of
1:29:35executives,
1:29:37I remember when I had no confidence.
1:29:40So, how do I work on that? You You
1:29:43cannot, unless you're a world-class
1:29:45actor, you cannot walk into a place and
1:29:48all of a sudden pretend you're you're
1:29:51confident. I tell people, learn to be
1:29:54confident about one thing. And sometimes
1:29:56it's knowledge.
1:29:58I always There is no meeting I go into
1:30:03that I am not well-read on that subject.
1:30:07If you want to achieve confidence, know
1:30:10everything that you can about a
1:30:12particular subject and that gives you so
1:30:14much great confidence. And I've seen
1:30:16young people come right out of college
1:30:18and they're sitting there, you know,
1:30:20their their their their elbows are in,
1:30:22their they're almost mouse-y looking,
1:30:25they're nervous, they're looking about
1:30:27constantly, they don't know where to
1:30:28look.
1:30:30And you know, and I and I tell them
1:30:34know your subject. Know your subject
1:30:36because the minute they begin to talk
1:30:38about that, they begin to flower and and
1:30:42and change. So So it's competence in a
1:30:44particular area or vertical creates
1:30:47confidence, which then
1:30:49kind of permeates.
1:30:51Yes, and and that's what the mili in the
1:30:53you know, the military, they like the
1:30:56British military, that's what they they
1:30:57take young people 17, 18, 19 years old
1:31:02and they say, you know, we're going to
1:31:04change you into a warrior. Well, how's
1:31:06that? By running, by by getting you to
1:31:10climb up that rope, by doing any number
1:31:14of things where you come can come away
1:31:16and feel that confidence. You talked in
1:31:19a video that I watched for Wyatt about
1:31:22a variety of different ways we can
1:31:24exhibit and be more confidence and show
1:31:25confidence. One of them is really
1:31:27looking at the leaders in your life who
1:31:28are confident and trying to sort of
1:31:31replicate some of those confident
1:31:32behaviors. Right. Um the other one was
1:31:36about your voice. Use a deeper voice and
1:31:38do not rise at the end of the sentence
1:31:40as if it's a question. Right. So let me
1:31:43talk about those.
1:31:45Don't try to reinvent what's successful.
1:31:50A confident person doesn't have to talk
1:31:53fast and doesn't talk high.
1:31:55Right? I remember the first arrest I
1:31:57made and I said, "Stop! This is the
1:31:59FBI." My voice was Nobody was going to
1:32:01stop. Nobody.
1:32:03Nobody.
1:32:04And the guys that were with me said,
1:32:06"Joe, you got to work on your voice. You
1:32:08have to have a command voice." Well, a
1:32:10command voice is down. Like
1:32:13Like, "Stop right there."
1:32:15I'll give you an example. You talk to
1:32:17most executives and you say
1:32:20"No, that's not acceptable." It's too
1:32:23high.
1:32:24No is always said down.
1:32:27No.
1:32:28Are we Are we going to
1:32:29No.
1:32:31That sounds like a complete sentence.
1:32:35Do you get You get them to practice
1:32:36saying no? Absolutely. I I did it at a
1:32:39you know, for 10 years every every
1:32:42February, the guy that
1:32:44Brian Hall who encouraged me to write my
1:32:47one of my books called Louder Than Words
1:32:50invited me to go to Harvard and I I'll
1:32:52never forget I had a a complete Harvard
1:32:55class. I think there was 76 students and
1:32:58and I had them all saying the word no.
1:33:01No. No. Going down lower. He had stepped
1:33:05out of the room for to to take a call.
1:33:08When he came back, he he he he thought I
1:33:10had a cult going
1:33:11on. I said, "No, Brian. I just I'm
1:33:14teaching them the right way
1:33:16because these are going to be future
1:33:18executives. That you don't say no no no
1:33:20no.
1:33:21No.
1:33:22No.
1:33:24Now, that sounds like a complete
1:33:25sentence. No. No.
1:33:28That's not how it's going to work. And
1:33:30and it's always lower. So, we work on
1:33:32the words more importantly
1:33:35uh we work on the on the gestures, how
1:33:37much territory you occupy because the
1:33:40territory that you occupy, if you're
1:33:42here
1:33:43Sort of like shriveled and tight.
1:33:45You're shriveled. Uh you want to You
1:33:47don't want to be excessive. You don't
1:33:49want to look like a clown, but you you
1:33:52you want to have the the space that
1:33:54you're entitled to. And then, I think
1:33:56it's very important to learn to speak in
1:33:59cadence.
1:34:00When you speak in cadence, and I do it,
1:34:03is people listen,
1:34:06they have time to process what you're
1:34:08saying, but they can also attach the
1:34:11emotion that goes with it. Who spoke in
1:34:14cadence?
1:34:16Churchill.
1:34:17Um Martin Luther King. I have a dream
1:34:21that one day
1:34:24this nation will rise up
1:34:28and LIVE OUT THE TRUE meaning of its
1:34:30creed.
1:34:32We hold these truths to be self-evident
1:34:35that all men are created equal.
1:34:38Powerful.
1:34:40Can you imagine if he stood up there
1:34:41saying, "I have one dream that one day
1:34:42my
1:34:43It's like who would listen to that?"
1:34:46But he was a preacher,
1:34:47and he knew how to command an audience.
1:34:49And when Churchill said, "We will fight
1:34:51them in the air. We will fight them
1:34:54beaches.
1:34:55We shall fight on the landing grounds.
1:34:58We shall fight in the fields and in the
1:35:00streets. We shall fight in the hills.
1:35:04We shall never surrender.
1:35:06The cadence is
1:35:09uh not just seductive, it is powerful.
1:35:13And a lot of executives don't know how
1:35:15to use it. They just I I I've been to
1:35:18presentations where
1:35:22people just let go. They're not even
1:35:24listening to what's being said.
1:35:27And yet, somebody begins to talk to them
1:35:30in cadence and says,
1:35:32"This is our offer.
1:35:34It is not final,
1:35:36but for the moment, it is our best
1:35:38offer."
1:35:40Now, you're paying attention.
1:35:43You're paying attention not just to what
1:35:44I said, but the emotion behind it.
1:35:47That's a lot better to say, "Well, this
1:35:50is not our last offer, but uh you know,
1:35:52we
1:35:53Mhm.
1:35:54There's a real authority when you slow
1:35:56things down just that little bit and
1:35:57provide the gaps.
1:35:58Which goes back to what I said, who
1:36:00controls time
1:36:02controls.
1:36:07You're establishing control over the
1:36:10theater of the negotiations.
1:36:12They don't teach that.
1:36:14Your hand gestures, as well. You've got
1:36:16very
1:36:18complementary hand gestures to what
1:36:20you're saying. Even as you're speaking
1:36:21to me, you just went, "Who controls
1:36:23time?" controls.
1:36:25controls. And And so, it's I'm wondering
1:36:27how I have
1:36:28And my fingers are spread out,
1:36:31establishing how much
1:36:33we care about something. When we fear,
1:36:35our fingers come together. When we fear
1:36:37a lot, our thumbs tuck in. I've I've
1:36:40seen people in negotiations give up a
1:36:42lot of information because all of a
1:36:43sudden, they they're tucked their thumbs
1:36:45in. I said, "Okay, they're scared." I'm
1:36:47Because dogs tuck their ears in, humans
1:36:50tuck their
1:36:52the the hands, no matter how dark you
1:36:55are,
1:36:57your hands, the palm of the hands, are
1:36:59very visible.
1:37:02That evolved with us
1:37:04because they're expressive.
1:37:07So, even in low light, we can use our
1:37:10hands
1:37:12to communicate.
1:37:13The more confident we are, the further
1:37:16our fingers are.
1:37:18I care. Imagine if I said, "I care about
1:37:21you." versus "I care about you."
1:37:24It's a big difference. So, in the first
1:37:26example, you kind of had your fingers
1:37:27together. In the second, you spread them
1:37:29out.
1:37:29This.
1:37:31I care about this.
1:37:33And so, they potentiate the message.
1:37:37Um and the human brain evolved also to
1:37:40look for the hands
1:37:42because the hands, number one, can be
1:37:45used as a weapon, but number two, they
1:37:49are also emblematic of the emotions that
1:37:53that we feel. And eye contact. Yes.
1:37:57Lots been said about eye contact and the
1:37:58importance of it. What should I
1:38:00understand about eye contact confidence?
1:38:02Eye contact in some ways is I mean, we
1:38:06could spend
1:38:07about 40 minutes on it because and I as
1:38:10a teacher I can tell you because you
1:38:12want to have good eye contact. For
1:38:14instance, if you're dealing with a
1:38:15woman, you don't want it to go, you
1:38:18know, normal eye contact is here. You
1:38:20don't want it going down to here to the
1:38:22breasts. Okay, so you must stay looking
1:38:24at the face, right?
1:38:25So, you want to keep it in in the face,
1:38:28but you also don't want to intimidate
1:38:31unless you want to intimidate.
1:38:33So, you have to employ things like eye
1:38:36gaze behavior. You have to employ things
1:38:39such as looking away. Now, you and I
1:38:41both look away as we're thinking about
1:38:43examples and
1:38:45and and different things. You can use
1:38:47eye contact for emphasizing.
1:38:52Look how often we use eye contact or our
1:38:56eyes to communicate opinions.
1:38:59Maybe with your partner, you said, "What
1:39:01do you think?" And and immediately
1:39:03they'll look
1:39:04he or she may may look at your partner,
1:39:06not yours specifically, but somebody you
1:39:09live with and they go
1:39:11So, with our eyes, with our eyes, we
1:39:14often give our opinions.
1:39:16So, in negotiations, it's
1:39:19it it's an important area. One of the
1:39:21things I think a lot about is about
1:39:24rapport building very very quickly. You
1:39:26know, someone that does this podcast a
1:39:28lot,
1:39:29I
1:39:30I sometimes overthink it a little bit,
1:39:31especially when I'm meeting people like
1:39:32you because I'm like, "Oh my god, this
1:39:33guy's going to be reading everything
1:39:34about me." And da da da da da
1:39:36Yes. So, so sometimes I'm like I think I
1:39:39overthink it when I meet someone like
1:39:40you, a body language expert, someone
1:39:41who's good at behavioral science. Um I
1:39:43want to talk about rapport building. We
1:39:44actually videoed
1:39:46our interaction today. So, when when I
1:39:49walked in, and I've got the video here.
1:39:51Let me have a look at this. See if
1:39:52there's a We'll put it on the screen for
1:39:53anyone that's watching. But, I just want
1:39:55you to analyze my interaction with you
1:39:57when I met you, and tell me how it could
1:39:59have been better. All right. Hello, Joe.
1:40:01So, first of all, you were waiting for
1:40:03me with arms akimbo, which is I'm in
1:40:06charge, I'm the big guy, and so your
1:40:08arms were here. Yeah, I got it. Okay.
1:40:11All right. But, you know
1:40:12I I actually do remember that. I
1:40:13remember thinking, "Get your hands off
1:40:14your hips." NO, NO, NO. BUT, but
1:40:17but it's fine. This is your domain. I
1:40:19expect this from you in your domain.
1:40:23But, one of the things you immediately
1:40:24did was you immediately went around the
1:40:28table, and you went forward to shake my
1:40:31hand, right? So, one of the things that
1:40:34I say is how much people matter to us is
1:40:38determined by how fast we act.
1:40:41Okay.
1:40:42So, the fact that you actually went from
1:40:44there to here, and you did it
1:40:47immediately, it demonstrates that you
1:40:50care.
1:40:51As early as 11 months, a baby will
1:40:54recognize
1:40:56individuals or even inanimate objects
1:40:59that care just based on how quickly they
1:41:02move.
1:41:03Towards them, or Towards them to do
1:41:06something for them. Okay. It's called a
1:41:08prosocial act, and babies as young as 11
1:41:12months recognize that. So, this is
1:41:13something that I It doesn't surprise me
1:41:16because you've been successful. It You
1:41:19know, they they Success is for me is
1:41:22measured on how well people get along
1:41:24with others.
1:41:26Um thank you for the weight. Appreciate
1:41:28it. Thank you. You're very, very smart.
1:41:30You look like someone who uh
1:41:31who worked in the FBI. I It's the FBI
1:41:34uniform.
1:41:36This is the Well, uh will I be miked or
1:41:38is it just this?
1:41:39Just that one. Just Just that one.
1:41:41Perfect. Okay.
1:41:43You said something charming about how I
1:41:46I I was dressed, which I uh appreciated.
1:41:49Uh this is always a good reminder to me
1:41:52of how old I look now. And
1:41:55uh and
1:41:56uh the only note that I would I would
1:41:59add is I would have remained standing a
1:42:03little longer. Okay. And then make sure
1:42:07that, you know, as I'm sitting, then you
1:42:11sit at the same time. Okay, so I invite
1:42:13you to sit and sit with you. I At the
1:42:15same At the same time, rather than allow
1:42:18me to all Now, if you can see in that
1:42:21instance, I'm actually still over you
1:42:25while you're already uh seated. That is
1:42:28In negotiations,
1:42:29that would be, as we say,
1:42:32contraindicated.
1:42:33What does that mean? It is It's a no-no.
1:42:36It's a big word It's a big word for it,
1:42:39Steve. Don't do that.
1:42:41Okay.
1:42:42What about taking notes? This is
1:42:44something that I've started doing
1:42:45actually in the last 6 months when I'm
1:42:46in meetings in my company's in the UK.
1:42:49Um
1:42:50is I have an iPad now. Yep. And when
1:42:53someone's speaking, it actually helps me
1:42:55because of the way that I think and
1:42:56process and learn. And it helps me also
1:42:58to not be listening to speak. I.e., if
1:43:01they say something, and I immediately
1:43:03have an idea that I'm worried I'm going
1:43:04to lose. Instead of
1:43:06You know, that kind of behavior, I can
1:43:08write down what I'm about to say. And it
1:43:10gives me more time to listen. But But
1:43:11one of the things I noticed in your work
1:43:13is you say that
1:43:14in terms of showing someone you care,
1:43:16taking notes is a really effective way
1:43:18to do that.
1:43:19Well, what I What I would say to you is
1:43:22what I would tell the therapist. One of
1:43:24the biggest mistakes therapists have
1:43:26started making is they sit there, and
1:43:29because a lot of them are earning a lot
1:43:32less money and they don't have a
1:43:33secretarial pool like they used to,
1:43:36they now type
1:43:39their observations
1:43:42as they're talking to their client. I
1:43:44think that's a big mistake and from my
1:43:47the studies that my company did in
1:43:49surveying
1:43:51not the therapist but their clients, the
1:43:54ones that were willing to talk,
1:43:56it's terrible. What I try to emphasize
1:43:59is
1:44:01um
1:44:02have material in front of you
1:44:05and if there's a particular note, uh
1:44:08write a little something or if you have
1:44:10somebody with you that's uh going to be
1:44:12the the note taker.
1:44:15I don't want to miss anything. If you're
1:44:18writing, you're not observing and
1:44:20observing is actually more important
1:44:22than writing. Now if you started talking
1:44:25and mentioned if you had mentioned the
1:44:27uh suprasternal notch, I I might have
1:44:30Okay, is that super or supra-sternal
1:44:33notch? Okay, that's worthy note. And
1:44:36then I come back and revisit. But if I'm
1:44:38writing all the time,
1:44:41I you know, I I have young people tell
1:44:44me, "Well, you're just an old-timer.
1:44:46This is how we've grown up."
1:44:48I can tell you that from an evolutionary
1:44:51standpoint, we cannot outdo our DNA.
1:44:56We just cannot simply For instance,
1:44:59schools come in and say, you know,
1:45:01"Well, you can't hug the students
1:45:02anymore."
1:45:03Okay.
1:45:05Don't expect
1:45:07that you know, what you know, why do we
1:45:09have depressed students? Why do we I
1:45:12There's a any number of things, but I
1:45:13can tell you this, we evolved to hug, to
1:45:17touch, to greet each other, you know,
1:45:20your best mate, all that stuff. When we
1:45:22used to wrestle with our buddies, right?
1:45:25That that play that play wrestling, uh
1:45:28all that is is is covert touching.
1:45:33It's because our species needs it.
1:45:36Humans need to touch. There's certain
1:45:39things that humans need and one of them
1:45:41is this facial interactions. When you're
1:45:44focused on writing,
1:45:46you're actually taking away from that.
1:45:50How do you think about handshakes then?
1:45:52Because handshakes are how we kind of
1:45:53touch strangers in a socially acceptable
1:45:55way. Is there a good way to handshake?
1:45:57There is.
1:45:58Um
1:45:59and and there's bad ones. So, I always
1:46:01say when you shake hands, the fingers
1:46:03are down, right? A lot of people put
1:46:06their finger up and so when they shake
1:46:09hand Let's see if we can reach each
1:46:10other. And so, when they go like this,
1:46:13now you have their finger in this erog-
1:46:16This is an erogenous area of your body.
1:46:18This is what you kiss. The veins.
1:46:21Yeah, well, the the the inside of the
1:46:22wrist
1:46:24is an erogenous area. And so, now you
1:46:26have this man's finger here and it's and
1:46:28it's just weird. So, the fingers are low
1:46:30and the pressure is applied equally.
1:46:34So, you don't Don't try to Donald Trump
1:46:36it this way.
1:46:37Yeah, don't don't do a Donald Trump
1:46:39handshake or don't don't jerk the hand,
1:46:42don't squeeze it too tight, don't play
1:46:46jujitsu.
1:46:48People my age have arthritis.
1:46:50I'm never impressed. I've had, you know,
1:46:53men come in and they're big and burly
1:46:55and they squeeze my hand and it's like,
1:46:57are you serious? What about the cupping
1:46:59where they they cup with you?
1:47:00cupping of the hand is okay with really
1:47:03people you know.
1:47:05But, most people don't like to have
1:47:08their hands engulfed. If you want to
1:47:10touch somebody else's hand, so you shake
1:47:12the hand and then you touch the upper
1:47:15arm and the all of that.
1:47:17For anybody that likes matcha, for
1:47:19anybody that likes lattes, one of my
1:47:21companies has just launched canned
1:47:23matcha lattes. Now, speaking with the
1:47:24founder Marissa, and she said that
1:47:26creating this product has been no easy
1:47:29feat. They tried launching in 2021, but
1:47:31as is often the case in business, the
1:47:33development process turned out to be
1:47:35extremely complex. So, they've spent the
1:47:37last 4 years testing and refining every
1:47:40single detail to create this, which is a
1:47:42perfect Ted matcha vanilla latte and a
1:47:45perfect Ted matcha strawberry latte. So,
1:47:48what we have here in these cans is
1:47:50barista matcha straight from the can,
1:47:52and it tastes like it's just been made
1:47:54from your favorite cafe. Naturally sweet
1:47:57and naturally creamy in a can. And the
1:47:59reason why I've invested in this company
1:48:01and I drink matcha is because matcha as
1:48:02an energy source gives me lasting energy
1:48:04without the big crashes that I get from
1:48:06other products. Grab their
1:48:07ready-to-drink canned matcha lattes at
1:48:09Waitrose, Tesco's, and Holland & Barrett
1:48:11and perfectted.com, where you can use
1:48:13code Steven40 for 40% off your first
1:48:15order.
1:48:18I've got another video for you here.
1:48:20So, he starts out with an arm down, but
1:48:23he's he's touching his neck, covering
1:48:25his neck. He's crimping the left side of
1:48:28his face, and he's massaging his
1:48:31forehead and his neck. So, I mean, we
1:48:33look at it and we say, "Okay, these are
1:48:35all emblematic of psychological
1:48:37discomfort." Now, why that is,
1:48:41uh we see his blink or eyelid flutter.
1:48:45Uh he's touching his face.
1:48:47Why is that? I I don't know. It's not uh
1:48:50now he there's a cathartic exhale. Looks
1:48:53like he's reading one of my books. What
1:48:55I would tell you is is these are all the
1:48:57behaviors you wouldn't want from a
1:48:58leader. You would certainly you see that
1:49:01from a follower, but not a leader.
1:49:03You'll never see a general do any of
1:49:05that. Certainly not in the US Army or
1:49:08the the
1:49:10the British Army.
1:49:11All the behaviors that he's doing, which
1:49:14are pacifyings or indicators of uh some
1:49:18sort of psychological discomfort are
1:49:20also all the behaviors that we equate
1:49:23with lack of confidence.
1:49:26Leaders are often exceptional and you
1:49:29say that exceptional individuals are
1:49:31made not born and that's a good thing
1:49:33because that puts this level of
1:49:34excellence within reach of you and me
1:49:38and you've identified several traits
1:49:40that make someone an exceptional person.
1:49:42Yeah. Um one of those is self-mastery.
1:49:45Self-mastery whether it was Alexander
1:49:49the Great who sought the the learnings
1:49:52of let's see Socrates taught Plato who
1:49:56taught Aristotle who
1:49:58Alexander. So Aristotle taught Alexander
1:50:01the Great and he pursued the knowledge.
1:50:04Thomas Edison one of the greatest
1:50:05inventors in America 1300 patents.
1:50:10Left school at age six sought the
1:50:13knowledge. I mean as humble as I came
1:50:15from we were so poor I literally had to
1:50:18go to garbage cans to steal books and
1:50:21magazines to to to learn. You can create
1:50:24your own apprenticeship program
1:50:27and you can learn to master a skill or a
1:50:31knowledge or an athletic move whatever.
1:50:34Someone who is self-mastered
1:50:37what have they accomplished?
1:50:39They have accomplished something that
1:50:41nobody can take from them.
1:50:44Nobody can take that from me. What is
1:50:46it? All that knowledge all that skill
1:50:49all that experience
1:50:52nobody can can take from me. Why is the
1:50:54word self in there?
1:50:56Self-mastery.
1:50:58Because so much of it nobody you know we
1:51:02were talking earlier and I said I I try
1:51:04to read two books a week so that way I
1:51:07can have read about a thousand books
1:51:10every decade. Nobody's telling me to do
1:51:13that. And so it's self
1:51:15Uh
1:51:16why? Because I wanted to know. Because,
1:51:19you know, why did why did uh Leonardo da
1:51:21Vinci want to know the
1:51:23eddies, water eddies in the water, or
1:51:26the length of a woodpecker's tongue? Who
1:51:29cares? It doesn't matter.
1:51:32It was self-imposed,
1:51:34and we
1:51:36we in this world are the beneficiaries
1:51:38of Leonardo da Vinci's interest in water
1:51:42eddies, which then helped him to draw
1:51:45hair
1:51:46of the Mona Lisa.
1:51:48We're the beneficiaries of that. I think
1:51:52self-mastery
1:51:54is more important than uh I think what a
1:51:57university can teach you. It can a
1:51:59university can teach you how to think,
1:52:03but it doesn't teach you mastery.
1:52:06So, is this cuz I'm I'm hearing like
1:52:09obviously learning in the pursuit of
1:52:10knowledge, and then there's this other
1:52:11part of self-mastery, which feels like
1:52:14self-awareness,
1:52:16being aware of oneself, like Well, I
1:52:18think you're an example of of of
1:52:20self-mastery. There there it's the only
1:52:23word around the
1:52:25in the universe uh of languages that
1:52:28encapsulates
1:52:30being able to
1:52:32take what is available
1:52:36and making it a part of your life. And
1:52:39so, whether it was my grandmother
1:52:41teaching me how to
1:52:43talk to people, or my mother, or my
1:52:45father, my mother showing me how to
1:52:47actually shake hands, my sister showing
1:52:49me how to how to dance.
1:52:51This is all part of self-mastery.
1:52:55Now, I could have rejected all of that,
1:52:57and a lot of people do. A lot of people
1:52:59reject science, or reject Oh, I I don't
1:53:02want to learn how to dance. I don't want
1:53:03to learn to do that. Okay, that's your
1:53:07option, but there's there's an exquisite
1:53:10elegance in being able to look at the
1:53:14world around you
1:53:16and learn from it, which you have done,
1:53:18and say, "I'm going to put that to work.
1:53:20Why should I re- reinvent what other
1:53:23people have experienced? I'm going to
1:53:25adopt that which I like and prefer, and
1:53:28then I'm going to put it to good use."
1:53:31The second one is observation, which I
1:53:32think we've talked about. Ob-
1:53:34observation, you know,
1:53:37I the the great example is
1:53:39a parent who can observe the the
1:53:42immediate needs of children and and and
1:53:45so forth, and I see people now that
1:53:48they're so I was at the airport
1:53:50yesterday coming here, and there was a
1:53:53family that the whole time they were
1:53:55waiting not once talked to each other,
1:53:58nor were they aware of what the others
1:54:01were doing.
1:54:02I find that difficult because when my
1:54:05daughter was growing up, I never took my
1:54:08eyes off of her. I see people on their
1:54:10devices as this whole family was.
1:54:13And they're missing out on a lot of
1:54:17things, a lot of in- in- information.
1:54:20The great inventions are made through
1:54:22observation. Velcro, do you know the
1:54:25story of Velcro?
1:54:26No. In the middle of World War II, a
1:54:29Swiss guy goes up in the mountains and
1:54:32comes back hiking, right? And he looks
1:54:35at his socks and it says, "Man, these
1:54:37chiggers, these little uh Is it a plant?
1:54:41Yeah, it's just uh the little seedlings
1:54:43that they they give off that stick to
1:54:44things. We Here in America, we call them
1:54:46stickers. Um
1:54:49There's all sorts of names. And he looks
1:54:51at it under a microscope and he notices
1:54:53that they they don't just stick out,
1:54:55they're actually curved. And and in
1:54:57curving, they get stuck on everything.
1:55:00So he says,
1:55:03"I'll just invent this." Now, what's
1:55:05interesting, we talk about observation,
1:55:07is he had seen this
1:55:10one time. How many millions of people
1:55:13had seen it?
1:55:15But it's the observer
1:55:17that can can capitalize on that. And
1:55:20that's why I tell executives, when you
1:55:21hire, hire good observers, cuz they're
1:55:24going to save you. They're the ones that
1:55:27are going to say, "Hey, I'm seeing some
1:55:28trends here that are bad." So,
1:55:31observation is is key. And then we
1:55:33transition right into the next one is
1:55:36most people think communication is just
1:55:39about words. And
1:55:42communication is principally, most
1:55:45effectively, and most influential are
1:55:48nonverbal.
1:55:49Across every culture.
1:55:52And the the misconception that words
1:55:57triumph over uh
1:56:00nonverbals. Go to a funeral.
1:56:04Go to a funeral and see how word how
1:56:07well words work versus putting your arm
1:56:09around somebody and let them sob on your
1:56:11shoulder.
1:56:13It's the primary means by which we
1:56:15communicate. It's the primary means by
1:56:17which we show we care, and it's the
1:56:19primary means by which we show empathy.
1:56:23The fourth one is action in it. For me,
1:56:25it really links to both the second
1:56:27point, which is observation, but also to
1:56:29your story about Velcro, because there
1:56:30must have been many people that thought,
1:56:33"Oh my god, that thing's sticking to
1:56:34me." And they did nothing. Maybe even
1:56:36they Maybe even some people who thought,
1:56:37"Oh, that could be useful." But then the
1:56:40the hard part often is doing something
1:56:42about it.
1:56:43Is doing It is doing something, as I
1:56:46talk in the book of the exceptional, do
1:56:48something that is prosocial or
1:56:51beneficial, but don't wait.
1:56:54Right? The the the the worst thing we
1:56:56can do,
1:56:58if you want to let people know that you
1:56:59don't care, take your time. And this
1:57:02happens all the time. You you go to a
1:57:04counter, you walk up to a counter, and
1:57:06say, "Hey, you know, I'd I'd love some
1:57:09help with this, you know." And then they
1:57:11just
1:57:12"Well, I don't know.
1:57:15Let me check in the back." And they take
1:57:18their time walking to the back, and then
1:57:21they take time walking back.
1:57:24You might as well be shouting, "I don't
1:57:26care."
1:57:27What I tell managers is, that's your
1:57:29responsibility. Why did you hire someone
1:57:33who can't move at the speed of light?
1:57:37Because movement is equated with caring.
1:57:40So, if that's their attitude, you might
1:57:43as well have a sign that says, "I don't
1:57:45care."
1:57:46Now, you could say, "Well, you know,
1:57:47maybe they have a mobility problem."
1:57:50Fine, front it.
1:57:52I'd say, "You know what? It's going to
1:57:54take me a minute because I just had my
1:57:56hip replaced, but I'm going to address
1:57:58it right now."
1:58:01We We We can forgive.
1:58:04But when we when we don't show we care
1:58:07by action,
1:58:09that is so immediate.
1:58:10And the fifth one is psychological
1:58:13comfort, and you write in the book that
1:58:14this is the most powerful strength
1:58:16humans possess.
1:58:17Absolutely.
1:58:20What's interesting about humans in the
1:58:22years that I've studied them is that
1:58:25humans don't seek perfection.
1:58:28The the baby doesn't care if it's
1:58:31sucking its own thumb or the or the the
1:58:35twin sister's thumb. They
1:58:37interchangeable is I Humans don't seek
1:58:40perfection. What we seek is
1:58:42psychological comfort. And whoever
1:58:44provides that is the soonest winner.
1:58:48It is as simple as that. If you can um
1:58:52you're too young, but I remember when
1:58:55computers came out and they were in ugly
1:58:58boxes and they were in ugly stores and
1:59:03they were behind the counter and they
1:59:06were ugly.
1:59:07Steve Jobs comes around and says, "No,
1:59:11we're going to put them on these lab
1:59:13tables like we have
1:59:15and we're going to make them accessible
1:59:17so this mysterious device that is such a
1:59:22ugly word that you forget that people
1:59:25hated computers so much. They used to
1:59:27come in at night and cut the cords.
1:59:29That's how scared people were of of
1:59:33computing.
1:59:34And he went from 4% shares of the
1:59:38computer market to whatever it is now,
1:59:4067 or what whatever the number is. Why?
1:59:45Psychological comfort.
1:59:47And I tell this to businessman when
1:59:50you're negotiating, what you're
1:59:51negotiating for is can you create enough
1:59:54psychological comfort
1:59:57that the other person can live with
1:59:59that.
2:00:00So that I can feel, "Okay, maybe I
2:00:04didn't get everything I wanted, but for
2:00:07this period in time I can live with
2:00:09that." Psychological comfort. I can go
2:00:12back to the board and report that this
2:00:15was the best that I can do and so forth.
2:00:18Aim for psychological comfort. And how
2:00:20does one go about creating psychological
2:00:22comfort in in any context?
2:00:26You started it today. You welcomed me in
2:00:29and then you said, "What would you like
2:00:31to drink? Would you like some water?
2:00:33Would you like some tea? Would you like
2:00:35some coffee?"
2:00:36That begins the process of psychological
2:00:39comfort. We're in a quiet environment.
2:00:43Less noise, more psychological comfort.
2:00:47Less lighting, it doesn't hurt the eyes.
2:00:50Anything that starts at a biological,
2:00:54physical,
2:00:55physiological, and then cognitive level.
2:00:59So, psychological comfort. We're
2:01:02negotiating. So, you want to offer
2:01:043,000, I think I'm worth 6,000.
2:01:08So, how do we achieve that? Well, I'm
2:01:12going to let you tell me your side of
2:01:14why you
2:01:16You can only provide 3,000, and I'm
2:01:18going to provide you my side. Okay.
2:01:22The fact that we actually get to tell
2:01:25our story
2:01:27begins the process of psychological
2:01:29comfort. Now, in the end, I may have to
2:01:33abide by that because there's only so
2:01:36much money.
2:01:38And if it's not in the budget, it it's
2:01:40not in the budget. But, there may be
2:01:42some things that you can add to say,
2:01:45"Look, this is all we have at this time,
2:01:48but we're going to re-evaluate this in 3
2:01:51months,
2:01:52and if we can then, depending on
2:01:55earnings, get you another $500 a month,
2:01:58we will do it then."
2:02:00We do it incrementally, but always
2:02:03thinking about what provides
2:02:05psychological comfort.
2:02:08Being harsh, being indignant, not being
2:02:13attentive to needs, wants, desires, and
2:02:17even preferences creates psychological
2:02:20discomfort.
2:02:21In um
2:02:22in
2:02:23in 2009, you wrote a book called
2:02:25Narcissists Among Us. Yes. And you
2:02:28earlier when you said that roughly 2% of
2:02:30people are narcissists, but then 25% of
2:02:32CEOs are
2:02:3322%, as high as 22% of CEOs have
2:02:37narcissistic traits, yes. Okay. And if
2:02:41someone's dealing with a narcissist,
2:02:42what do they have to
2:02:45do in order to manage that situation?
2:02:48Because according to those numbers,
2:02:49roughly like 98% of people Yeah. um
2:02:52aren't narcissists, but probably will
2:02:54deal with them in their lifetime. And
2:02:55then, you know, Yeah. a significant
2:02:56amount of people work with them.
2:02:57Yeah. Even though they account for 2% of
2:03:01the population,
2:03:03we will work with or for somebody like
2:03:07that. So, what we have to keep in mind
2:03:10Well, what do we mean by narcissist?
2:03:11We're not talking about the person that
2:03:13looks in the mirror and likes to uh
2:03:15splash on cologne and comb their hair.
2:03:18This is a person that overvalues
2:03:20themselves,
2:03:22but has to devalue others. This is the
2:03:25person who um only thinks about
2:03:28themselves and doesn't care of what uh
2:03:31suffering or what's going on through
2:03:33your life.
2:03:34Wants you to be loyal, but is not loyal
2:03:37to you. Is disinterested in your
2:03:41personal affairs, but wants you to be
2:03:43interested in theirs.
2:03:46There is your malignant narcissist. Oh,
2:03:49and by the way, they inherently tell
2:03:53lies, but expect you to tell the the
2:03:55truth to them. Now, the effect is Well,
2:03:59if if they're only 2% of the population,
2:04:02but we see them in a lot of
2:04:04corporations, we're going to work for
2:04:06them, then,
2:04:08you know, how do we get along? Well,
2:04:09first is recognizing that they're going
2:04:12to devalue us. Now, sometimes they
2:04:15devalue you by not inviting you to
2:04:17meetings or sharing information, but
2:04:19many times it's by the way they treat
2:04:22you, yelling at you, uh being
2:04:24disparaging. I mean, I have some things
2:04:26that are horrific.
2:04:28So, what do we do when we have people
2:04:30like that? Number one is recognize what
2:04:33you're dealing with. And that's why I
2:04:34wrote be a the um dangerous
2:04:37personalities because um I have these
2:04:40robust checklists in there which have
2:04:43been tested many times so you can see oh
2:04:46wow out of 125 things this person is has
2:04:5075 of these traits
2:04:53you've you've got a problem but now
2:04:55here's the thing
2:04:57when we live with somebody like this
2:05:00let's say you you you know they can be
2:05:02very charming
2:05:03but then they turn on you
2:05:05and they become who they really are
2:05:08then
2:05:09how do you how do you deal with that?
2:05:11What I can tell you is that the arc of
2:05:15the trajectory does not favor you that
2:05:19these individuals are so caustic they're
2:05:21so toxic that eventually
2:05:24they will victimize you physically
2:05:27mentally emotionally
2:05:29physiologically
2:05:31or financially
2:05:32you'll be victimized the question then
2:05:35is and I tell this to a lot of
2:05:37executives who work for these
2:05:39individuals who they're bullied and the
2:05:41stuff is how long are you willing to
2:05:43tolerate it? if you can set a number and
2:05:46say six months or a year okay
2:05:48but then do something because you will
2:05:51pay a price you know there's a great
2:05:52book called the body keeps the score the
2:05:56body will definitely keeps the score you
2:05:58will pay a price for being in the
2:06:01proximity of a toxic individual and if
2:06:04you become that person's chew toy
2:06:07you will suffer
2:06:09immensely
2:06:11and so I say you know there's no pill to
2:06:15cure them there is nothing you can do to
2:06:17make them like you expect no loyalty
2:06:21try to get out as soon as you can and
2:06:22that's the only advice that you know
2:06:25obviously I'm not a clinician
2:06:27but I think most clinicians if they're
2:06:28honest will say you got to get out of
2:06:30there It's this is not tolerable. So,
2:06:34don't try and win
2:06:36in any respect. Don't try and
2:06:39I don't think you can win. First of all,
2:06:40these individuals are severely flawed of
2:06:43character. They have no introspection.
2:06:45They see themselves as perfect. They
2:06:48don't see any imperfection in in in
2:06:51themselves.
2:06:52And so, because they're flawed of
2:06:55character, you cannot expect normal
2:06:59behaviors from them. And so, why expose
2:07:02yourself to them?
2:07:05They're they will be like that all their
2:07:07lives.
2:07:09Is there a particular chapter to why you
2:07:10say um
2:07:12one is bad, two is terrible, three is
2:07:14lethal?
2:07:16Oh,
2:07:17you know, people I get this question all
2:07:19the time. Well, can you have multiple
2:07:21traits? Yes.
2:07:23You can have you can be pathologically
2:07:26narcissistic. So, you overvalue
2:07:29yourself.
2:07:31And you can also have traits of the
2:07:35paranoid personality.
2:07:37Where that
2:07:40um you are very rigid in your thinking
2:07:44and you're always suspicious of
2:07:46everybody's intentions. In history, you
2:07:49look at Hitler. Hitler was
2:07:52pathologically he was a malignant
2:07:54narcissist. He was clinically paranoid.
2:07:58Who did he fear?
2:07:59Minorities, the the the Roma, the what
2:08:03was then called the Gypsies, and of
2:08:04course
2:08:05the Jewish people. That's that is
2:08:07clinical paranoia.
2:08:10And he was a psychopath. Okay, let's
2:08:13just lay that out there.
2:08:15What is psychopathy? Psychopathy is
2:08:18where you have no remorse, no empathy,
2:08:20no conscience. You can do whatever you
2:08:23want and you sleep well at night. There.
2:08:26That's your Robert Hare, the researcher
2:08:29is the best one that defines uh
2:08:31psychopathy.
2:08:33Hitler had it all. Is there a thin line
2:08:35probably there between like narcissism
2:08:37and self-belief? Because when you're
2:08:39describing narcissism, you're talking
2:08:40about like over-importance, like really
2:08:42believing in one's important, and it
2:08:43sounds somewhat like someone who is
2:08:45extremely self-believing.
2:08:47Well, narcissism, by the way,
2:08:49narcissism, which has been studied since
2:08:51the 1950s, we now have a narcissistic
2:08:54society that we we never did before. We
2:08:57see it in the way we talk about
2:08:59ourselves more than anything. We get on
2:09:01TikTok and other forms and we espouse
2:09:04all sorts of things and uh so we're way
2:09:07more narcissistic now than in the 1950s.
2:09:10They look at even the words we use. Now
2:09:12we use the word me and I more than we
2:09:15did in the 1950s. We used to say we and
2:09:18ours. Now we say me and I and
2:09:21the true uh narcissist
2:09:24um has a belief system that is so
2:09:27corrupt.
2:09:28Um they're truly flawed of character and
2:09:31they not only have the traits of
2:09:33narcissism
2:09:35but they truly believe how they see
2:09:38themselves as infallible, as I only have
2:09:42the answers. I'm the person that can
2:09:44make uh us great again. And I know what
2:09:46you're going to ask me next.
2:09:48No, I'm not going to ask you that.
2:09:51Thank you, but if the traits fit Yeah.
2:09:53then it you know what I tell people is
2:09:55as you
2:09:56whether you're going into an
2:09:57organization or if you're looking at
2:09:59who's leading your country,
2:10:02ask yourself, do they have these traits?
2:10:06And if they have the the the traits,
2:10:08then it's not a difficult equation.
2:10:10Psychology is and especially when it
2:10:13comes to people flawed of character is
2:10:15not that difficult. Is do I want to work
2:10:17for somebody that values me
2:10:19or someone that devalues others? And you
2:10:22start with that. In all these decades of
2:10:24you doing all these incredible things,
2:10:26hunting terrorists, spies, aerial
2:10:28surveillance, working in partnership
2:10:30with the SAS, interviewing people,
2:10:32chasing down terrorists,
2:10:34how has it changed you as a human being?
2:10:36How has it shifted your perception of
2:10:38human behavior and
2:10:39what it is to be a human and meaning and
2:10:41all of these bigger questions of life?
2:10:44I've never been asked that question. So,
2:10:46thank you for asking a most profound
2:10:50question.
2:10:53I guess the best answer is that I
2:10:56learned it piecemeal, and I'm glad I
2:10:59learned piecemeal.
2:11:01And by that I mean that my first
2:11:03homicide was just a regular homicide
2:11:06that I responded to. My first suicide
2:11:08was which was a police officer was
2:11:11uh
2:11:12you know, it was in increments.
2:11:15I think if I had been presented with
2:11:17everything that I had been presented
2:11:19with all at once, I think I would have
2:11:21had a mental breakdown. I'm glad that it
2:11:23was episodic, that I was able to learn
2:11:26from each. And what I have learned is
2:11:30number one,
2:11:32that who were most of the people that I
2:11:35talked to? The majority were witnesses
2:11:38or victims.
2:11:41And these were nice people. They were
2:11:43kind people. Some of the nicest people
2:11:46were these poor farmers out in Arizona.
2:11:48They grow cotton. They They don't earn
2:11:51very much.
2:11:52They're good people.
2:11:54You learn that everything you're doing
2:11:56in law enforcement is really for them.
2:11:59Um you know, later on when I got into
2:12:03counterespionage or now you're dealing
2:12:05with nation states and the equities of
2:12:07different nations. And yeah, each
2:12:09country has their own priorities. But
2:12:12you realize that when you're dealing
2:12:14with uh extremists, and they have their
2:12:18own belief system, and there's nothing
2:12:20really you can do to change them. But,
2:12:23we also have our belief systems, and you
2:12:25have to realize, "Okay,
2:12:29I can't fix all the problems."
2:12:32As a law enforcement agent, I can only
2:12:36attend to that which I can help or
2:12:40resolve or so forth. I couldn't find all
2:12:44the suspects
2:12:46that either raped
2:12:48or killed or bombed.
2:12:52I was at Brigham Young University when
2:12:54she was a girl was abducted by
2:12:59a serial killer.
2:13:02And to this day, I am in pain that I was
2:13:05on duty that night when she was
2:13:07abducted.
2:13:10I still feel it.
2:13:12And these things, they weigh on you.
2:13:16But, I'm also
2:13:19uh very
2:13:20you know, when I get with students, I
2:13:22mentor people, I mentor a lot of
2:13:24executives, but I also mentor young
2:13:26people who are curious.
2:13:29And I see the eagerness in which they
2:13:32pursue life and knowledge, and that
2:13:35gives me great hope. Why are you still
2:13:37in pain about being on duty that night?
2:13:40Because you can't get it out of you. I
2:13:42can't get the smell
2:13:45of
2:13:48Sometimes you go to a crime scene, and
2:13:49the smell is so bad that you can't wash
2:13:52the smell away. You have to burn your
2:13:54clothes.
2:13:56Uh forensic examiners know this.
2:13:59There's just some things that you can,
2:14:01you know, the the first person I saw
2:14:04uh killed was in Cuba.
2:14:07And you just can't There's
2:14:11you know,
2:14:12biologically you have the hippocampi.
2:14:15You have two of them and that retains
2:14:17everything negative you ever experience.
2:14:20That's why you can't take a pill for
2:14:21post-traumatic stress because the
2:14:24hippocampi make sure that the first time
2:14:26you burn yourself
2:14:28touching that stove doesn't occur again.
2:14:31So, all things negative are retained
2:14:34sometimes forever, but usually around a
2:14:36decade.
2:14:37But, I'm also lightened by the fact
2:14:41that people still pursue good things.
2:14:46You know, I hear from people who work
2:14:48with dogs or who work with the
2:14:50handicapped with no expectation
2:14:54of of any reward. And I think most
2:14:56people have a a good heart, a kind
2:14:58heart. And so, I tried to focus
2:15:01on those people that I met which gave me
2:15:06the examples for
2:15:09uh be exceptional. That woman in Brazil
2:15:12who at the age of six was became blind,
2:15:16she went on to have 12 children.
2:15:18She had more, but only 12 survived and
2:15:20who could still do needlework blind by
2:15:24feeling.
2:15:25I will never forget that experience
2:15:27either. To sit in her presence was
2:15:32a a a bestowed pleasure upon me to
2:15:35understand a woman who has who could
2:15:38sense people moving in and around her
2:15:41just by how the hairs on her hand moved
2:15:45as they interacted with with the with
2:15:48the the space around her. It was a great
2:15:51experience. So,
2:15:53What day of your career are you most
2:15:55proud of or were you most happy?
2:15:59Oh, wow.
2:16:01Well, I was uh
2:16:03I'll tell you. I was
2:16:04I was really happy when I graduated from
2:16:08the FBI Academy. Imagine at any time at
2:16:12any one time there's 27,000
2:16:15applicants to the FBI and they will only
2:16:19accept 220 maybe or so a year.
2:16:23Um so I was I was elated. I was also
2:16:29very happy
2:16:31the day I
2:16:33left the FBI. Because at that point I
2:16:36had done it all and I wanted to do other
2:16:39things. I wanted to write which is very
2:16:43difficult to do when you're in the
2:16:45Bureau and I wanted to continue
2:16:47teaching.
2:16:49Yeah, so I think those two events were
2:16:52when it comes to career was
2:16:55good times in my life.
2:16:56So my audience are very much people that
2:16:59want to learn
2:17:01that love stories that want to change
2:17:02their life and improve their life so
2:17:03that they can achieve the objectives
2:17:04they have. So you've written a lot of
2:17:07books. I think it's what 15 in total?
2:17:09Well, 14 published the 15th comes out
2:17:12next year. So my my last question then
2:17:15is
2:17:16of everything in the
2:17:1814 pending 15 books that you've written
2:17:21and everything you've learned, what is
2:17:23the most important
2:17:25thing that I didn't ask you about
2:17:29that would be helpful to somebody who's
2:17:30looking to improve their life, their
2:17:31communication skills, their body
2:17:33language, to be more effective in
2:17:34achieving their goals that I should have
2:17:36asked you about?
2:17:39Well, I
2:17:41hate to ruin this for you, but I think
2:17:43you asked really in however many minutes
2:17:47or hours we've been doing this
2:17:50a lot of great questions.
2:17:52And I think in your questions the the
2:17:55essence is what is the importance of
2:17:58connecting? You you your audience
2:18:01is are all in the people business.
2:18:05I mean, unless they're working as a they
2:18:07write code,
2:18:09but even they we're all in the people
2:18:11business. And the the
2:18:13what your questions really circled
2:18:15around is what's the importance of
2:18:18connecting? What's the importance of
2:18:21connecting properly? And then how do we
2:18:23make maintain those connections? And we
2:18:26we've talked about this. The importance
2:18:29of non-verbals to communicate, I trust
2:18:32you, I value you, I care about you, and
2:18:36all that. But then creating that
2:18:37psychological comfort that allows us to
2:18:41then have this long time together that
2:18:45relationships are are are invaluable. I
2:18:49think that's the greatest lesson. Every
2:18:51time I go anywhere, I say, "We are in
2:18:53the people business." And I think you
2:18:56are exemplary
2:18:58um in demonstrating what what you can
2:19:01achieve if only you have that.
2:19:07That's a great compliment.
2:19:09Thank you so much. We have a closing
2:19:10tradition where the last guest leaves a
2:19:12question for the next guest not knowing
2:19:13who they're leaving it for.
2:19:15And the question that's been left for
2:19:16you is
2:19:22Hmm, interesting.
2:19:25What do people say
2:19:27that they like about you?
2:19:30I think that one is easy. And it's easy
2:19:33because I hear it so often, and they
2:19:36say, "You're so approachable." I think
2:19:38they see pictures of me, you know, where
2:19:41I'm looking sternly, or they think an
2:19:43FBI agent, and and wherever I go around
2:19:47the world, they say,
2:19:49"Well, you look so average. You look
2:19:51approachable." And I've always tried to
2:19:54make myself approachable.
2:19:56Um whether you're a
2:19:58a student, whether you are the security
2:20:01guard, or whatever, I am always
2:20:04accessible. I'm always approachable, and
2:20:07uh and I treat everybody the same.
2:20:09Joe, thank you. Um, it's a really
2:20:11interesting time that we're living in.
2:20:12We talked about it a bit before we
2:20:13started rolling. Um,
2:20:16we're more digital than ever before.
2:20:17We're living behind screens, and
2:20:20connection is somewhat of a lost art.
2:20:22Yeah. And that's why people are so, I
2:20:24think in part, so keen to learn more
2:20:25about how to connect better, how to not
2:20:27be misunderstood, um and how to
2:20:30communicate how they truly feel, because
2:20:31it's not something that now comes
2:20:33naturally to this digital-from-birth
2:20:34generation. Right. And that's something
2:20:36that I think your work does so
2:20:38profoundly. It kind of brings us back to
2:20:39what it is to be human, that that
2:20:41through line of anthropology and
2:20:42understanding our evolution and where it
2:20:44all came from, as well as the reinforce
2:20:45of everything that you say, and um it's
2:20:48incredibly important. And it's in so
2:20:49incredibly resonant. I've seen it across
2:20:51the videos that you've you've been in in
2:20:53the interviews that you've done, and
2:20:55they're just so unbelievably resonant,
2:20:56and that's because people are so thirsty
2:20:58for this information, and many of the
2:21:00problems I think we often find in our
2:21:01lives stem from
2:21:03um being ineffective at communicating to
2:21:06someone else how we feel and what we
2:21:07truly think. And maybe because we
2:21:09haven't learned, but also maybe we're
2:21:10learning another behavior. And maybe
2:21:12we're becoming more individualistic and
2:21:13more withdrawn and more um
2:21:16trapped behind screens. So, I really
2:21:17applaud you for the work that you're
2:21:18doing, and I highly recommend people go
2:21:20and read these books. There's a lot of
2:21:21them, but um
2:21:22I'm going to link them all below, and
2:21:24with a little synopsis so you can decide
2:21:26which one best suits you. I read
2:21:28a few of them. One of my favorites is
2:21:29the Be Exceptional one. It's so
2:21:31accessible, but they're all very good at
2:21:33different things, depending on what it
2:21:34is you're looking for in your life,
2:21:35whether it's body language, whether you
2:21:36just you're the type of person that
2:21:38wants to hear more about um hunting
2:21:40terrorists or understanding psychopaths
2:21:42or um generally more things about the
2:21:45FBI and the life that you've lived. So,
2:21:47I'll link them all below.
2:21:50Is there anything we've missed?
2:21:52Well, my wife would tell me uh
2:21:55please be nice and say that
2:21:58if they can mention my I now have a
2:22:01YouTube channel to address a a lot of
2:22:04these things. Just go to jonavarro.net
2:22:08and
2:22:09there's a link there to my my YouTube
2:22:11channel which you would think I would
2:22:13know, but uh We'll link it below. Right.
2:22:16I I don't know, but um I want to thank
2:22:19you for what you do.
2:22:21You're going to realize one day, as I
2:22:24realized, that you're helping to change
2:22:27lives even though that wasn't your
2:22:29intention. Your intention was probably
2:22:32to educate.
2:22:33But
2:22:3510 years on, 20 years on, or as I
2:22:38recently found from 40 years on,
2:22:41somebody will write to you and said
2:22:44something you said or your example
2:22:48affected me and it changed my life and
2:22:51you'll go, "Wow, I
2:22:53never thought about that."
2:22:56And that's what you've done and you'll
2:22:58realize it one day.
2:23:01Thank you.
2:23:03I mean, that's what you're doing, too.
2:23:04Joe, thank you for being so generous
2:23:05with your time. I really really
2:23:06appreciate it. It's been an honor to to
2:23:07to meet you and I'm excited to finish
2:23:09the rest of your books and to explore
2:23:11more on your YouTube channel, which
2:23:11we'll link below. You also do lots of
2:23:13speaking. You work a lot with companies
2:23:15and organizations and if people want to
2:23:17reach you, they should go to your
2:23:18website and send you an email there.
2:23:20Absolutely. Just just through the
2:23:22website and we'll we'll attend to it and
2:23:25I'm happy to share that knowledge
2:23:27journey with whoever's interested.
2:23:31I'm going to let you in to a little bit
2:23:33of a secret. You're probably going to
2:23:34think me and my team are a little bit
2:23:35weird, but I can still remember to this
2:23:37day when Jemima from my team posted on
2:23:38Slack that she changed the scent in this
2:23:41studio and right after she posted it,
2:23:43the entire office clapped in our Slack
2:23:45channel. And this might sound crazy, but
2:23:47at The Diary of a CEO, this is the type
2:23:48of 1% improvement we make on our show.
2:23:50And that is why the show is the way it
2:23:52is. By understanding the power of
2:23:54compounding 1% you can absolutely change
2:23:58your outcomes in your life. It isn't
2:23:59about drastic transformations or quick
2:24:01wins. It's about the small, consistent
2:24:05actions that have a lasting change on
2:24:07your outcomes. So, 2 years ago, we
2:24:09started the process of creating this
2:24:10beautiful diary, and it's truly
2:24:12beautiful. Inside there's lots of
2:24:13pictures, lots of interactive
2:24:17elements. And the purpose of this diary
2:24:19is to help you identify, stay focused
2:24:22on, develop consistency with the 1% that
2:24:25will ultimately change your life. So, if
2:24:27you want one for yourself or for a
2:24:28friend or for a colleague or for your
2:24:30team, then head to the diary.com right
2:24:32now. I'll link it below.
2:24:34This has always blown my mind a little
2:24:36bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
2:24:38regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
2:24:41show. So, could I ask you for a favor?
2:24:42If you like the show and you like what
2:24:44we do here and you want to support us,
2:24:45the free, simple way that you can do
2:24:46just that is by hitting the subscribe
2:24:48button. And my commitment to you is if
2:24:50you do that, then I'll do everything in
2:24:52my power, me and my team, to make sure
2:24:53that this show is better for you every
2:24:55single week. We'll listen to your
2:24:56feedback, we'll find the guest that you
2:24:58want me to speak to, and we'll continue
2:25:00to do what we do. Thank you so much.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Former FBI Agent: If They Do This Please RUN! Narcissists Favourite Trick To Control You! by The Diary Of A CEO, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 21,874 words across 3,552 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.