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Forensic engineer suggests there could be two killers in Murdaugh trial: Full video — Transcript

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0:01Mike Sutton s-u-t-t-o-n
0:05uh Mr Sutton um what do you do for a
0:07living I'm a forensic engineer a
0:10forensic engineer now what is a forensic
0:12engineer
0:13well the majority of the work that I do
0:15involves the investigation of accidents
0:18and failures
0:20in the field of legal questions legal
0:24problems court of law so what forensic
0:28Engineers do is that they collect data
0:31collect physical evidence they interpret
0:34the data and then try to come up with
0:36what happened in an event maybe what
0:39didn't happen in an event or maybe try
0:41to limit the possibilities of what
0:44happened in an event
0:46okay and do you have uh educational
0:48background in this area or have you been
0:51trained or how about just tell us first
0:54of all we as we say around here where
0:56are you from well I was born in Hickory
0:58North Carolina and then I grew up in
1:00Cary when I was a young family moved to
1:03Cary which is right outside of Raleigh
1:05when I graduated from Cary high school I
1:07went to North Carolina State University
1:09and I was in the materials engineering
1:11department for about a year my sophomore
1:14year I transferred over mechanical
1:16engineering department
1:18and so is it NC State
1:20um from undergraduate from 84 to 88
1:24when I was a sophomore
1:26I met in an engineer's name is Dr
1:30Charles Manning who owns a company still
1:32in Raleigh he's passed away but his
1:34company's still there and Dr Manning was
1:37an ex-professor at State he's also next
1:39NASA engineer
1:41and I worked with him from basically
1:431987 then after I graduated I went full
1:46time with him when he graduated he
1:48graduated with a degree in what in
1:50mechanical engineering okay and you were
1:52working with him working with them and
1:54not continue to work with him and then I
1:55got a master's degree at North Carolina
1:57State University also in mechanical
1:59engineering with a concentration and
2:02Acoustics and vibrations and Acoustics
2:04and vibrations correct your Masters okay
2:06and then what did you do well worked
2:08with him as a as a Consulting engineer
2:10Consulting forensic engineer looking at
2:13all different kinds of accidents and
2:15failures about anything that you can
2:16imagine we do Automotive vehicle
2:18accidents of course because there's so
2:19many we look at structural failures
2:22product failures material failures about
2:26anything that you can imagine but
2:28basically
2:29if there's anything that's based in
2:31physics
2:33it's capable of being explained and
2:36understood and what do you mean by
2:37physics well physics is are the are the
2:41laws that govern how how things around
2:46us how they behave you can predict their
2:49behavior uh if you know if if I drop a
2:52basketball off of a balcony I can
2:54predict how long it's going to take to
2:55reach the ground based on all the
2:57different variables so the laws of
2:59physics are there it helps us figure out
3:01how things would happen so I worked with
3:04Dr Manning uh for a while until 2000 end
3:07of 2000 and in 2001 I founded my current
3:11company which is based in Cary it's
3:14called accident research Specialists
3:15what's the name of it again accident
3:18research specialist in Cary North
3:20Carolina
3:21and we do the same thing there are 10
3:23Engineers that I work with
3:25and support staff and we investigate
3:28analyze a variety of cases for a variety
3:31of clients like I said most of my work
3:33is related to either criminal cases or
3:36civil cases and I do some Consulting
3:38that's not related to courtroom issues
3:42just straight Consulting to companies
3:45have you from time to time dealt with
3:48shooting instant reconstruction yes I
3:50have and tell the jury what shooting
3:51instant reconstruction is well the
3:54shooting incident reconstruction at
3:55least how I'm involved with it I deal
3:57with what would be called external
4:00ballistics
4:01and terminal ballistics so external
4:04ballistics of the flight of a bullet
4:05after it leaves a gun
4:07a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun
4:10it's going to be affected upon by
4:12gravity air resistance so that's just
4:15physics
4:16and then there's terminal ballistics
4:17which is what happens to a projectile
4:20when it strikes a Target or an object
4:22and how many times have you been
4:26involved in a case involving
4:28shooting instant reconstruction
4:30I would say over the years maybe 50 okay
4:34not all different kinds like for
4:35instance it could be a case where a
4:37manufacturer is being sued for like a
4:39drop fire where somebody dropped a
4:41pistol and it went off and it's not
4:43supposed to do that no and so it could
4:46be a product's case I've worked on cases
4:48involving Hunters you know long range
4:50distance shots where you're trying to
4:52figure out where a particular Hunter was
4:54aiming the gun so he where he hit killed
4:58somebody I've worked certainly in law
5:00enforcement shootings I work for law
5:02enforcement and I've worked on the side
5:05opposite law enforcement for people who
5:07have been shot by law enforcement I've
5:09worked on insurance cases sometimes
5:11there's a question about whether it was
5:12a suicide or an accident so those are
5:15the type of cases that I would be
5:16involved with and um
5:18when you do these cases you're looking
5:21for
5:22I mean what's the difference between you
5:23and a crime scene Reconstructionist well
5:26crime scene reconstructions uh would be
5:28looking at a lot of different things so
5:30I'm a mechanical engineer I deal with
5:31physics but somebody who works at crime
5:34scene may have also a background and
5:36let's say chemistry and they may be
5:38using different reagents to find blood
5:40or gunshot residue that's not what I do
5:43but I physically reconstruct a site one
5:46of the the main things that we do in
5:48forensic engineering
5:49such as myself accident reconstruction
5:51is what it is is that we have the
5:54ability to go and and
5:56capture data collect facts from it from
5:59a site whether it's an accident or a
6:01murder or whatever
6:03and then what we do is we interpret
6:06what we're finding and try to again put
6:08ourselves in a position to answer
6:09questions about how that occurred or
6:12maybe limit what could have occurred or
6:14maybe what didn't occur
6:17okay so um have you ever been qualified
6:19by state or federal court to testify
6:24about a shooting incident reconstruction
6:27um
6:29in for instance in Wake County North
6:32Carolina yes and what was that was that
6:35in federal court that was in federal
6:37board and were you allowed to testify as
6:40an expert yes okay now
6:44um let me move on to
6:45um
6:46and I believe the name of that case is
6:48Michael Morgan versus Wake County
6:49Sheriff's Office correct that is correct
6:51and that was 2018. yes now
6:55um you've been involved in many more
6:57cases have you ever been qualified
6:59additionally to that by any federal
7:01state court to testify about a shooting
7:05incident yes I I have testified another
7:07criminal trials where the questions were
7:09just as I said which is where was the
7:12weapon named maybe how many shots were
7:13fired where were the shots fired from
7:15maybe the sequence of shots
7:18again this is all you know developing an
7:22understanding of what the physical
7:23evidence tells you and okay
7:26so let me move to a second area of
7:28expertise I'm going to ask you about
7:29tell us um about what Acoustics
7:32engineering is
7:34well Acoustics and vibrations are
7:35Acoustics specifically as part of
7:37mechanical engineering it's a study of
7:40how sound moves How It's Made how it may
7:42be how a sound May decrease over
7:44distance the effect of sound on people
7:47it's obviously something real important
7:49because if you're exposed to sound for
7:52long periods of time you can do this
7:54part of your hearing so it is a subset
7:57of mechanical engineering and so I have
8:00testified in cases involving Acoustics
8:03my Master's paper was
8:06in the area of something that I do quite
8:09often which is the audibility of
8:11emergency vehicles police car has a
8:14siren on and you're driving up to an
8:16intersection you got the radio on can
8:18you hear the siren or can you not hear
8:20the siren maybe it makes a difference if
8:22your window is up or down those types of
8:24issues so the audibility of noise to do
8:27that kind of analysis do you have to do
8:29some sort of reconstruction oftentimes
8:31yes often with Acoustics you can
8:35definitely look at it theoretically but
8:37I typically test it because it's
8:39something that is readily testable okay
8:41and you've been qualified again in at
8:44least one state have you been qualified
8:46many multiple times to testify as to
8:50acoustical engineering yes and one of
8:53those cases was
8:55Kudo Locus versus CSX in state court in
8:59Richmond Virginia is that correct yes
9:02and many other times also yes
9:05okay the last area of expertise all
9:07these are engineering related correct
9:09they are is um
9:12accent reconstruction involving vehicles
9:16yes and you've done that
9:18more than you've probably done the other
9:19two correct it is uh motor vehicle
9:22access and again it's just because
9:24there's so many of them throughout my
9:26career of 36 years I've looked at
9:30probably a couple thousand motor vehicle
9:32roads and again you apply these same
9:34principles
9:35um
9:37data and then you do an engineering
9:39analysis of it mathematics trigonometry
9:42those kinds of things is that correct
9:43yes and you have been qualified multiple
9:45times on that issue yes as an expert to
9:47give an opinion yes and again going back
9:50to the other two you've been qualified
9:51as an expert to give an opinion uh by
9:53many courts several courts and shooting
9:55incident reconstruction Acoustics
9:57engineering and in motor vehicle
10:00um
10:01reconstruction is that correct yes it is
10:05you're going to remove uh that this
10:07witness be qualified as a wit as a
10:09expert in the three areas I just
10:11mentioned
10:13let's turn the state
10:17he's admitted without objection as an
10:20expert in the fields that he's offered
10:23Okay so
10:25let's start off with
10:29the
10:31um
10:32shooting instant reconstruction okay yes
10:35now have you prepared a PowerPoint well
10:38back off
10:40strike that
10:44were you hired by myself Mr Griffin to
10:49do some analysis on what occurred
10:53at Moselle
10:55it resulted in the deaths of Paul and
10:58Maggie Murdoch yes
11:00and um
11:04what is let's first of all talk about
11:05what generally what's the process
11:07generally and then we're going to put
11:08this PowerPoint up or do you want me to
11:10put the PowerPoint up first I can speak
11:11to that generally so yeah I think I
11:14mentioned it earlier but
11:16really the first steps in any
11:17investigation if it's a little
11:19investigation big investigation my job
11:21and the people I work with and people in
11:24other companies that do what we do you
11:27go collect facts and in this case this
11:29is and this is typical facts were
11:31collected the crime scene was processed
11:34there were a lot of pictures taken
11:36things like that by sled so that's one
11:39place that I can get facts
11:41um
11:42I typically do and I did in this case I
11:45go collect fax myself so I went to
11:47Moselle
11:48and it had changed I went there about 18
11:52months after the murders I went in
11:54October of 22. but I was able to measure
11:59the Moselle property
12:02and look at the physical evidence what
12:05was remaining and then I was able to use
12:07that in conjunction with what sled had
12:10done because sledded had collected a lot
12:12of evidence at the scene that I looked
12:15up now the some of the evidence
12:16collected by sled that you looked at
12:18were measurements made by sweat agent
12:22Worley either the night of or soon after
12:26the incident to things like shell
12:28casings right that is correct and
12:30there's also pictures of those shell
12:32casings correct yes and also the
12:35location of Maggie's body and Paul's
12:39body there were measurements done on
12:40both of those correct yes and did agent
12:44Worley also
12:46um
12:48find two bullet holes one in the
12:51doghouse one in the quail pen yes and
12:54did she take measurements there she did
12:56and were those important to your
12:58calculations they were it was it was
13:00what I was looking at at least my role
13:03in looking at the crime scene or the
13:05side of the crime
13:07the questions that I was being asked
13:10okay so
13:12um
13:14do we have the PowerPoint please
13:21myself
13:33this is a disc of this PowerPoint any
13:37objection
13:41no objection
13:48uh you're on we offer into evidence
13:50defendants exhibit number 143.
13:53without objection I believe
14:02um in your honor um
14:06okay let's just walk through the
14:08PowerPoint
14:10um go to the next slide please
14:13okay now this is titled shot
14:15trajectories is measured by special
14:17agent warley
14:19are these were what we're talking about
14:20uh measurements she made yes okay next
14:23slide please
14:25Quail pen
14:27go ahead
14:29now what are we looking at here so this
14:31is what I call the quail pin and it's
14:33it's a small animal cage it's been
14:36referred to but like it's a bird cage
14:38and it's up against the building or the
14:40barn the hangar I think it's been called
14:42several things it's up underneath the
14:44roof okay now if you went perpendicular
14:47to that
14:49um out would you
14:51run into the um the dog kennels yes okay
14:55so this is across from the dog kennels
14:58um and that is the quail pen
15:01yes in this particular photograph was
15:03taken the night of the murder so the the
15:05first few pictures just show the points
15:07of evidence that were of interest to me
15:09and then what happened later on it was
15:12the next month I believe was July the
15:146th
15:16special agent Worley went back and
15:18actually took some measurements it's a
15:20she used a basically a common technique
15:22where you try to get more information
15:24about these bullet holes okay next
15:28and what is this we're looking at it's a
15:30little bit closer view of the quail pen
15:32and what you have there on the side of
15:34the quail pin so it would be the side
15:35that's really facing
15:37the crime scene right um it's made out
15:40of like a fiberboard a little bit more
15:43robust than cardboard it's like a fiber
15:45board so you can penetrate it easily and
15:48there was a bullet hole basically in the
15:49center of it okay next slide
15:52that would be that bullet hole that is
15:55the Bullet Hole and uh if you were able
15:58to zoom in a little bit look carefully
15:59you'd be able to see what's called a
16:01bullet wipe it's down
16:03you know if you if that was a tiny
16:05little clock it'd be just under three
16:07o'clock
16:08and um so when I looked at that it
16:11looked like the bullet was on an upward
16:12trajectory a small one but an upward
16:15trajectory and what the bullet wipe is
16:17is when the bullet comes out of the
16:18barrel of the gun it's going to have uh
16:21products of uh of the the bullet being
16:24fired and when it enters sheetrock or a
16:28car door or a piece of plywood you
16:31commonly see that lead-in Mark where the
16:34bullet goes into a piece of material can
16:36we make that bigger there we go okay so
16:40how about step down here for just a
16:41second and there's a pointer right
16:42behind you
16:43your anime he stepped out
16:45grab that point right there
16:49could you point out for the jury please
16:51that you call it a bullet wipe
16:56yeah so when when you look at the entry
17:01one of the entrance of a bullet hole
17:03into a surface like this is and this is
17:05the piece of gray cardboard
17:08um there's some tearing here but if you
17:09look over here on the side that's what's
17:11called the bullet white Mark and that
17:14shows you the direction that is coming
17:15from so it's coming from where I'm
17:17standing
17:18and it's a little bit below like if you
17:21could draw a straight line through there
17:22that would be even with the Horizon it's
17:24a little bit below that so right away
17:26that told me that this bullet
17:29when it penetrated this piece of
17:31material here that it was traveling
17:34upwards and from
17:37um from right to left
17:40okay let me see the next slide just in
17:42case
17:45okay
17:46um
17:50any way to make that a little bigger
17:54while he's doing that what are we
17:55looking at here uh this is a photograph
17:58from Special Agent Worley's
18:01trip to the crime scene I think it was
18:04the next month July the 6th and what's
18:07going on here so this this bullet it uh
18:10penetrates this Quail pin and actually
18:12goes through the wall of the hanger too
18:14it goes through several layers of
18:16material and a common technique to try
18:20to figure out what is the angle of that
18:21shot you take something like this
18:23typically they're fiberglass so they
18:25they don't bend they're perfectly
18:26straight and you insert that Rod through
18:29the bullet hole and then what you do is
18:31you measure this Rod so right now she's
18:33measuring What's called the vertical
18:35angle so if if I was
18:38measuring the that's the the
18:41um angle of the shot like to the TV
18:44right here so vertical angle is this way
18:47was the bullet going up or was it going
18:49down or was it going straight in and
18:51what what did that um
18:54I mean did you look at
18:56um a close-up picture of that and did
18:58you also look at her notes yes and what
19:00were what was her conclusion about the
19:02angle
19:04you see vertical angle the angle going
19:06into the uh the quail pen was it going
19:10up was it going down and by I guess you
19:13gauge this in degrees correct correct
19:16okay so was it going up or down it was
19:18going up at what
19:21um
19:22degree so the Bullet was traveling
19:25upwards which is consistent with what I
19:27just showed you on the previous pictures
19:28so her measurement that is going up is
19:31consistent
19:32um she recorded in her notes that that
19:34was three degrees going up so pretty
19:36flat but uh the bullet was traveling
19:39upwards
19:40but there are two pictures she has one
19:42picture of it at three degrees and one
19:44at one and a half degrees so pretty
19:46close
19:47but two different trajectories and later
19:51on I looked at the difference between
19:52the one and a half and the three okay
19:54and uh we can that'll come up later but
19:57for the purposes of me understanding
20:00what was going on here I considered both
20:02one and a half and three and while one
20:04and a half or three is not a steep
20:06incline
20:07at as it goes in if you project that
20:11back it's going to have if you go 10
20:13feet it's going to make it
20:15as you project it back what if any
20:18difference is there on that cause on
20:21trajectory okay well the reason this is
20:24interesting is because it's an upward
20:25traveling bullet so if if you think
20:29about the path of this bullet for all
20:31purposes here because we're talking
20:33about maybe 50 feet in this crime scene
20:36it's it's not 400 yards if it's 400
20:39yards the bullet has a curved trajectory
20:42so here because the the area that we're
20:45considering is so small that for all
20:48intents and purposes it's a flat
20:49trajectory which means that the barrel
20:51of the gun
20:52was on the same angle as that rod
20:56okay and it's going down which means if
20:59you extend that Rod if you're able to
21:01extend that Rod some distance it's going
21:03to go into the ground
21:04so if it goes into the ground obviously
21:06the gun can't be Underground
21:08so you know that the shooter who fired
21:12the weapon that that that sent the
21:15bullet into the coil pin has to be on
21:18that line so the weapon has to be on
21:20that line and it's going to go into the
21:22ground at some point so that that is a
21:26good piece of information because that
21:28locks the location of the shooter at
21:30least for one shot
21:32and um I believe agent Morley identified
21:36I'm sorry
21:37strike that what if any caliber or kind
21:41of weapon did agent Worley deduce had
21:43fired that bullet uh this was the 300
21:45Blackout okay now go to the next slide
21:48please
21:53this is uh just another measurement this
21:56may be the one that's closer to one and
21:58a half degrees but you can see this is
22:00called they call them trajectory rods
22:02which again is inserted through the
22:04multiple Paths of the boat as it is it
22:07went through things so as you look at
22:08that device whatever that's called
22:11one of them shows one and a half one of
22:14them shows three and she wrote down
22:15three correct okay
22:19great
22:20next please
22:23now what is this uh same thing I'm just
22:26showing the kind of the different
22:29the different readings that she got here
22:31it was within a range okay so so same
22:34answer for this right next
22:42okay so what are we looking at now just
22:45to explain a little bit better can you
22:47give me make that a bigger please
22:52okay so what are we looking at here this
22:55is to show the trajectory Rod it comes
22:57in we we've been looking at this side
22:58right here but if you look inside you
23:01see it kind of goes through the cage and
23:03it goes through the back of the cage it
23:05actually goes into the hanger or the
23:07barn goes through the siding and then
23:09the plywood so so that that is that same
23:14Rod except that's the inside going out
23:16that's the inside I was just trying to
23:18show the technique and and this
23:20technique is a technique that is is used
23:23often there are other ways to do it and
23:25we may talk about it later but this is a
23:27technique that's often used to come up
23:29with this
23:30line of fire or the path that that
23:34bullet took because if you consider the
23:37path of the bullet you may be able to
23:38conclude something from that okay next
23:43it's just more the same this is the
23:45trajectory Rod inside the cage or the
23:48quail pin okay
23:52more of the same next
23:55more the same but these are okay wait
23:57one second
23:58um so these pictures just uh depict that
24:02Rod coming from the outside going
24:04through the quail pen and through the
24:06the uh the wall behind the coil pack
24:09that is true and that's you put that Rod
24:11through and then you can make some
24:13measurements outside as to trajectory
24:16correct easy for you to say
24:19um next please
24:21now what is that device what's going on
24:23there this is called a zero Edge
24:25protractor so tractor is going to
24:27measure zero to 180 degrees so this is a
24:31special agent Worley puts it up against
24:32the side of the coil pin
24:35and
24:36drop a palm Bob down so you can get
24:38What's called the Azimuth and the
24:40Azimuth is just your compass Direction
24:42so because if I have the Azimuth and
24:44this is about 41 degrees coming in from
24:47where I'm standing
24:48so you know 45 degrees would be you know
24:51here there's 41 degrees 90 degrees would
24:54be straight in so what that does is it
24:57tells you the direction of this line
25:00so you know at that point you know
25:02whether it's going up or down and you
25:05know whether it's coming from the left
25:06or the right that's correct and as we
25:08look at that coil pan is it coming from
25:11over here to the left is it coming from
25:14the right well it's coming from over
25:16here to the right okay and then to
25:18determine exactly how you need to go
25:20back and kind of look
25:21you have to do it to scale of course
25:24right so you you have to create a scale
25:27diagram or you do what we typically do
25:29which is we scan okay so let me see the
25:32next one
25:34and is that just a close-up of the the
25:36measurement the angle yes and you can
25:40see here that it's 41 degrees 41 degrees
25:43and that's what she recorded in her
25:45notes okay next
25:48now this is the doghouse
25:51and we're in a minute we're going to see
25:53a 3D rendition of this so the jury can
25:56get a little better idea of where
25:57everything is yes but let's go ahead and
25:59talk about the doghouse next
26:01laughs so tell me what you see there so
26:05the dog house had a bullet hole in it
26:07it's pretty low to the ground it's about
26:09five and a half inches above the ground
26:11three inches up from the bottom of the
26:13siding on the doghouse
26:15and this Bullet Hole was going downwards
26:1814 degrees down
26:21and it had an angle slightly to the left
26:26and so kind of the same way that you can
26:29think about the one that was going up
26:30you think about the one that's going
26:32down so if put a trajectory rod and
26:36we'll see that in a second it's going to
26:37be sticking upwards like that
26:39so you can go up that trajectory Rod to
26:42a point where it makes no sense like the
26:44shooter would have to be on a ladder
26:46right so that what that does is it tells
26:49you where that shot came from
26:51and it puts it puts a limit on where
26:54that shooter could be
26:56um you know
26:57just the same way that the trajectory
26:59would disappear into the ground makes no
27:01sense you know shot trajectory that's up
27:03at 10 feet doesn't make any difference
27:05either I mean it doesn't make any sense
27:06like let me see the next slide
27:10okay and what is that that is the 300
27:12Blackout projectile it went into the
27:14doghouse went into a dog bed so you're
27:16able to dig it out so it's you can see
27:19that here so again these are the the
27:21night of the murders so if it didn't go
27:24through the back wall how does one get a
27:27trajectory off of that well in this
27:29particular case the siding was thick
27:31enough where agent Worley was able to
27:33put a dowel rod or a trajectory Rod into
27:36that hole unlike the quail pin which is
27:40very thin so a very thin material
27:43is considered thin if the thickness of
27:46that material is much less than the
27:48length of the bullet right here
27:50so in a thin material
27:53um there's some
27:55special considerations within materials
27:57versus thick materials but the doghouse
27:59had siding and Wood Construction so it's
28:02thicker so thick material is going to be
28:05more in line with the length of the
28:07bullet and even longer so you can still
28:09get the trajectory
28:11with reasonable accuracy in this
28:13particular case okay next slide please
28:16okay now what is that this is the same
28:18process here at the doghouse where can
28:20you blow that blow that up for me please
28:22there you go so what do we see
28:25uh this is the trajectory Rod this is a
28:29um a dial protractor it just uses
28:31gravity to tell you what the angle is
28:33and what was the angle 14 degrees down
28:36it's coming in at a 14 degree the
28:38bullet's coming there you go it's coming
28:40in it's coming down into the doghouse at
28:43a 14 degree angle that's correct okay
28:47next please
28:49and what is this zoomed in so you can
28:52see so there's 90 and it's over at about
28:5576 degrees or so so that makes sense
28:57it's a 14 degree
28:59downward path yes next
29:03now this is that plumb bob thing and
29:05Asthma thing right asthma so if this is
29:08this shows you the compass direction of
29:10the shot where it's coming from
29:12and uh here it's
29:15um she measured seven degrees she
29:17recorded six degrees off of there but
29:19it's it's somewhere there all you really
29:21got to know it's not straight into the
29:23doghouse it's a little bit of an angle
29:26about six or seven degrees okay next
29:29and that's just a close-up of the same
29:31thing yeah so there's 90 so the Palm Bob
29:34would be right here if it was going
29:35straight into the doghouse but it's a
29:37little bit to the left
29:38about six or six degrees six or seven
29:41degrees okay next
29:43now tell me what this is so this is uh
29:46agent Worley's diagram and it's not the
29:50scale
29:51and these are just the lines that I drew
29:54in
29:55to begin with you know before I really
29:57did much work in the case and it's
29:59clearly not to scale because for
30:01instance from the small animal cage that
30:04pole is 24 feet about
30:06and you can see that
30:09um Maggie's body is you know 17 feet
30:12long you know it's it's but it says not
30:15to scale but what that doesn't do for
30:17you it really doesn't tell you okay we
30:19went through all that trouble to measure
30:21these what does it tell you and what I
30:24noticed was this is that
30:27that there was two shots
30:29and one was into the doghouse which was
30:32facing this way one was into the quail
30:34pen which is like facing the way this
30:37this desk here that's two totally
30:39different directions
30:41so the first thing that would be good to
30:43do is to draw those lines backwards and
30:45see where they cross
30:47right and where they cross is there
30:49anything of interest there right are
30:51there Footprints or something in this
30:54case there was but not Footprints but
30:58that's what you do here and so the thing
31:01you're looking at is is let's let's
31:03figure out what this is telling us which
31:05is these two lines are going to cross
31:08somewhere well and and this is not to
31:10scale so it doesn't tell you much it
31:11doesn't really tell us much because they
31:13don't cross at the right spot right yeah
31:15but in terms of the relationship of
31:17different
31:19um objects we see the quail pen and it
31:23looks like it is again perpendicular to
31:25the dog kennels correct
31:28yes okay next
31:33okay so this is your reconstruction
31:35um
31:36and maybe you go ought to go ahead and
31:37take your um you want to do it from down
31:39here up there I said well wait one
31:42second let me see what this does that go
31:44ahead
31:47this this is a avi file
31:50this is um
31:52well I can explain what is it a video it
31:54is a video yeah go ahead and play and
31:56then we'll make may play it again
31:58I want to explain it after they look at
32:00it go ahead
32:07three
32:13okay stop it right there for me can you
32:16stop it right there you go so we see the
32:18doghouse the quail point where we just
32:21flew by it no way means she's starting
32:23over again okay go ahead and start
32:35here we go
32:36so as we get right stop it right not yet
32:41not yet not yet not yet
32:43there stop okay so we see the doghouse
32:46point it out please
32:47we see the kennels how about Point those
32:50out and the I don't think we can see the
32:53quail pen yet but it's going to be up in
32:55there correct yeah so the quail pins
32:56against this wall okay go ahead and
32:58start it back up
33:06and
33:09stop it
33:10okay show that show the jury again where
33:13the quail pen is here's the quail time
33:15and where's the Dog House the dog house
33:17is right here okay okay go ahead and
33:19start it up again
33:22now
33:23um
33:25maybe I'll have you explain how you do
33:27this
33:28um you go ahead and take the stand again
33:30please yes let me see the next slide
33:32while he's going up there
33:36uh okay well we're gonna you don't need
33:39to come down for this but
33:42this is called fly through with no roof
33:45so you've eliminated the roof with the
33:48computer to show what it looks like you
33:50get a better sense of perspective is
33:52that right that's correct and is this
33:54the scale it is to scale it's um it's
33:57very accurate is is kind of the modern
34:00way to measure a site it's scanning is
34:04used all all over now I mean
34:06dentist offices to everything but we'll
34:09talk in just a minute about how you put
34:11this together and the process I think is
34:12on here okay how about let that one go
34:15and this is without you took the roof
34:17off of the shed correct I did okay go
34:20ahead
34:24we see the doghouse
34:26we can see
34:27the quail pen
34:30we can see where Maggie's body was and
34:33we can see where Paul's body was correct
34:35yes
34:37okay
34:39how about do that one more time
34:48it would be Maggie's body near the
34:49doghouse yes and that would be
34:53um
34:54that would be Paul's body over here
34:56correct that's correct okay keep going
35:10and why did you do this particular
35:11visual what does that make it easier to
35:14see the where everything is relative
35:16each other yes um
35:18in the scan you can just cut the roof
35:19off it just makes things easier to see
35:21okay the roof the roof was of no
35:23importance to me next
35:28now tell me what this represents
35:31well this is where I start constructing
35:34some lines and this is just an overall
35:36shot looking straight down like this is
35:38a bird's eye view of the scan and uh the
35:42the dog kennels are in the bottom right
35:45and the The Hanger of the barn is kind
35:47of the center top of the picture and
35:50it's just there's nothing really
35:54um
35:56you know of this particular shot it just
35:58illustrates what you can do and and what
36:00I did for instance is I drew some white
36:03lines in there those those are
36:04measurement bars one's 25 feet long
36:06one's 50 feet long but the scan itself
36:09you can measure very accurately anywhere
36:12in the scan because this is not a
36:13picture what it is are there points and
36:16there's so many points there's millions
36:18of points and there's so many points
36:19when you put them together it actually
36:21looks like an object like a like a
36:23three-dimensional object so let me ask
36:25you this that's the state it's been a
36:27month so we may not all remember the
36:30state had this is called a pharaoh um
36:32what is this called
36:34uh it's a we call him a pharaoh scan
36:37Pharaoh is the company that builds the
36:39scanner there are other companies like
36:41Nikon that make scanners but a fair scan
36:43is a laser scanner and what it does is
36:45it sends out a laser and when that laser
36:48hits an object it returns back to the
36:51scanner it gets reflected back depending
36:53on how much time that takes
36:56it can figure out how far away that that
36:59object is and we're talking about a very
37:01small point and then what it does is it
37:03because the scanner is spinning around
37:05this way and a mirror is spinning this
37:08way it knows where that point is in
37:10space
37:12and then what it also does to make it
37:14look better it spins the camera around
37:16and then the camera applies more
37:20information all these points so what you
37:22end up with are millions of points like
37:24if you skip if you scan the front yard
37:27of this Courthouse you get trees you get
37:29signed you get people kind of ghosting
37:31by as they walk through the scan so it
37:33just picks up everything so um does law
37:36enforcement use pharaoh yes they did
37:38they did do a pharaoh scan
37:40um I I have seen their fly through like
37:43we just showed you
37:44um but that's the only thing that I've
37:46seen so they did and again it is a
37:49common technique people in our field use
37:51to measure things because you don't have
37:53to take 100 measurements with a tape
37:55measure and it's much more accurate and
37:58um sled I believe you just said did a
38:00pharaoh scan of the same murder site
38:03they did and I think we played it it's
38:06been a month but I think I played it a
38:09month ago
38:11Jackson sustain
38:13some point in this trial have you are
38:16you familiar with the fact whether
38:17pharaohs their Pharaoh scan sweat
38:19Sparrow scans played
38:21yes okay and is there Pharaoh scan as
38:25detailed as yours
38:27I would have to compare them but it
38:29should it should basically be the same
38:31thing the their scan and our scan should
38:34be the same because it's a highly
38:36precise instrument and this is the next
38:39one the only difference would be they
38:40did it in July and you did it in October
38:43of 22. okay now what is this today so
38:46the next thing I I wanted to do other
38:49than can reconstruct the shot
38:51trajectories like we said before I
38:53wanted to know where the evidence
38:55markers were
38:56so what this here is I took a special
39:00agent Worley's measurements she had
39:03measured to a bunch of different things
39:04including the head and feet of the
39:07victims and then also to those little
39:08yellow evidence marker tags and the
39:11evidence markers that I was most
39:13interested in were numbers two through
39:15seven which would have been the empty
39:18cartridge cases from the 300 Blackout
39:21but what I did was is I created a cad
39:25diagram to scale up agent Worley's
39:28measurements okay what's a cad diagram
39:30it's a it's just computer-aided drawing
39:32it's a it's a drawing package so you can
39:35you can do a scale diagram now she did
39:38this just you know measuring from a pole
39:40or post and and whatnot but
39:43we have a technique
39:45when we scanned in 22 obviously these
39:49markers were not there but we had lots
39:51of photographs of them and so there's a
39:53methodology that we can use where we can
39:55flatten the picture taking the night of
39:58the murders and then we can match that
40:00to the scan so then once you match that
40:03photograph to the scan you can actually
40:04place in objects that no longer exist
40:07very accurately now this Pharaoh program
40:10as it you indicated was used by sweaters
40:12used by other law enforcement agencies
40:14yes very common it is used by hundreds
40:18thousands of them yes
40:20and they do the same process that you do
40:22yes okay so once you've got this
40:27and what is this this is a
40:31I mean tell me what this process is yeah
40:33so so this is Special Agent Worley's
40:35hand measurements put on a on a computer
40:38put on computer program and because I'll
40:41I wanted to put the evidence markers in
40:44my scan and so you can you have the scan
40:46of the Moselle property but then I can
40:48put stuff in there too I could put a car
40:50in there I could put a body or I could
40:53put these evidence markers so I I use
40:56this to check what we did was which we
40:59use photographs and the techniques of
41:01putting the evidence markers
41:03where they belong okay next next slide
41:06please
41:08what does this depict so what this is is
41:11then I overlaid
41:14agent Worley's drawing the one that we
41:16just looked at over my scan
41:20and I use that if if you were able to
41:22zoom in a little bit I don't know if
41:23it's how it may be a little bit hard for
41:26you guys to see but those circles with
41:29the crosses in them are special agent
41:31Worley's measurements and then either
41:34touching them or inside of them are the
41:37evidence markers that got placed by what
41:40we call reverse camera projection which
41:42is just a fancy name of we can take the
41:45information from a photograph taking the
41:47night of the murders
41:48and we can attach that to our scan and
41:52then if we want to we can put missing
41:54objects in there which is what we did
41:56here okay go ahead
42:00and there's an example of it there can
42:02you make that a little bigger please
42:06so what what is yeah that's that's
42:08that's perfect right there what does
42:10that show uh it shows the same thing so
42:12we use the reverse camera projection
42:14method to get the yellow evidence
42:17markers in the scan and you can see
42:20their special agent Worley's
42:22measurements are usually right beside it
42:24but you have to remember she was
42:25probably stretching a tape measure so it
42:28all makes sense so it it agreed so what
42:31that tells you you have a high degree of
42:33confidence that these markers are in the
42:35correct place okay next
42:40now what does this depict well it's a um
42:45it is a video okay show the whole screen
42:49yeah we need the whole screen to play
42:51the video please
42:54okay
43:03what are we seeing here
43:05so this is fading back and forth between
43:07the scan world or the computer world and
43:11reality
43:12so you can see there that that's a crime
43:15scene photo that was taken the night of
43:16the murders
43:17and what that is doing is it's showing
43:20you the comparison between this world
43:22that we build to try to understand what
43:25was the physical evidence telling us
43:26well the picture taken on the night of
43:29the murders is this a complete picture
43:32have you drop some things out no it's a
43:35complete picture
43:36um
43:38you know they some items may have been
43:40moved by the time this picture was taken
43:42I would have to go back and see itself
43:43so this was taken this picture was taken
43:45by you in October oh no no this is the
43:47night of the murders here
43:52okay next
43:56okay so go ahead
44:00whale pen shot trajectory okay so tell
44:04me tell us what this is okay so I picked
44:07a place in the scan to start laying in
44:09those lines so now we've talked about
44:11how we built this up so let's put the
44:14trajectory of the two shots that were
44:16measured
44:17and see what it tells us and so
44:20I just chose a point you're looking
44:23straight into the side of the doghouse
44:25the sheet in the foreground there would
44:28be Maggie's body and then you can see
44:30the evidence markers there's three four
44:32you can see five and six over by the
44:35sheet right and 12 is is something else
44:38I believe it was a maybe even been
44:41bullet fragments but three four five and
44:44six there are empty cartridge cases from
44:47the bullets that were fired okay go go
44:50back out of a look for just a second
44:54foreign
44:57I see somebody
44:59standing over here on the right what is
45:01that
45:03oh that was probably one of one of my
45:05Engineers or somebody I work with who
45:07was doing some other task so when you
45:09scan if you stand still long enough
45:11it'll scan you scan you in okay
45:13okay thanks
45:17now
45:18um what are those two green lines
45:21the two green lines are the shock
45:22trajectories into the quail pin and why
45:25they're two because one is at one and a
45:28half degrees up and one is at three
45:30degrees up okay
45:32and this projection
45:35how did I mean
45:37in terms I understand
45:40if you took the dowel
45:42that she put through the hole
45:46injection sustained sorry your honestly
45:50get to the same place
45:53tell us what that depicts in terms that
45:56I can understand
45:57yes so that is the flight path of the
46:01bullet
46:01somewhere along that line and so it's
46:05just it's trigonometry it's it's not any
46:08more complicated than that
46:10um I don't know if that's too
46:12complicated for you but it's just
46:13trigonometry
46:17the
46:19these wines are they put in there by you
46:22manually or are they computed by the the
46:27program well it it the lines are put in
46:30by me on the computer program
46:34and again there there are the one and a
46:37half degrees three degrees the
46:39importance of them is is that's where
46:41the barrel of the gun has to be
46:42perfectly in line with that with those
46:45two green lines
46:47but right now without knowing anything
46:50else you could slide that gun up and
46:52down that green line and it could be
46:54anywhere right so but you start looking
46:58at other pieces of evidence
47:01and so what what you would have is as
47:04well what other pieces of evidence we
47:06have I looked at this and I said well
47:07where does the shot trajectory go well
47:10it goes almost right over
47:13Maggie's body very close to it right
47:15close to the feed that's one thing the
47:17second thing is is there is a collection
47:20of empty cartridge cases
47:22right to the line so if I'm facing the
47:25quail pin
47:26there's a collection of cartridge cases
47:28to my right
47:29and what's your understanding about the
47:31ejection of cartridge cartridge cases
47:33from blackened
47:35typically it should be to the right and
47:38to the back somewhat it depends but so
47:42that was a piece of information which is
47:44is that starts to as I said before
47:47sometimes what you'll look not you're
47:49looking at what you can determine but
47:51maybe you can limit
47:52where something happens so
47:55you know that is a point of Interest
47:56well you have a pile of cartridge cases
47:58that go right beside the shot
48:01trajectories that's an important Point
48:03okay next
48:07okay so what are we seeing here so that
48:11is a shooter that I constructed and what
48:14this is is actually a scan of a person
48:17so you can get scans of people
48:19in this particular case just for the
48:21purposes of this
48:23trial
48:24I stripped all the textures off this
48:26person so there's no clothing or hair or
48:29skin color anything like that so it's
48:32just more almost like a
48:35um
48:36like a robotic looking figure it it's
48:38holding a 300 Blackout weapon a model of
48:42one
48:42and so when I started examining those
48:47shot trajectories a couple things were
48:49apparent one is it would be really hard
48:53for anybody to be shooting that shot
48:55from the shoulder
48:57because remember the shots going up but
48:59it's only four feet two off the ground
49:02what is the entrance won't be where it
49:04goes into the entry point it's only four
49:06feet two off the ground and it's going
49:08up which means that even if you're a
49:12fairly short person to get that
49:14trajectory you'd have to walk all the
49:15way up to the quail pin to get it to
49:18work so what I was seeing here is that
49:20the most likely way that that shot was
49:25made was from a low position like
49:27shooting low on the hip so I took this
49:30scanned in person with a blackout
49:32and I pushed the gun down about as far
49:35as I could push it when you say about as
49:37far as you could push it what do you
49:38mean by that well eventually at some
49:40points you have to have your hand on the
49:42the trigger and the gun and so instead
49:46of having the person stand straight up
49:47to I just put them in a shooting
49:49position I don't know what the position
49:51of the shooter was but this is this is a
49:54thought process okay what is this
49:55telling us so that's what I did here and
49:58what degree line is that one on that's
50:00on the one and a half degree okay next
50:06and what does this debate that's the
50:09exact same shooter except that shooter
50:11has its Barrel on the three degree line
50:14okay but he would be on the other side
50:18of Maggie's body and on the other side
50:19of the doghouse correct
50:21okay next
50:28okay now this has two individuals in it
50:31what's what's the one behind
50:33uh so those are the two so so the
50:36shooter the shooter behind is the one
50:38and a half degree the shooter in front
50:41is the uh three degrees so that kind of
50:44gives the range
50:46of this person being able to make that
50:48shot and so that to me because of
50:53several different factors it's much more
50:55likely that the angle into the quail pen
50:59was flatter than three degrees which we
51:02talked about before one of the main
51:03reasons is there's no shell casings over
51:05behind the doghouse so this person up
51:08front what what did you say about shell
51:10cases there's no shell casings anywhere
51:13close to that person and I guess could
51:15you demonstrate for us how you you're
51:17depicting this person persons holding a
51:20gun
51:21I mean what I mean do they you say from
51:24the hip yes what does that mean
51:27um how about demonstrate if that's okay
51:29your honor
51:31so what I would say is is that what I
51:34did
51:37put it down here about as low as I could
51:40go
51:41okay and and within like a shooting
51:43stance like a shooting position you're
51:45not aiming but at least you're not
51:46aiming in the traditional sense but you
51:49if you're aiming it to be on your
51:50shoulder right right so I was just I
51:52stretched that gun down until I could
51:54just still keep my hand I thought
51:56shooting a gun now from the shoulder
52:00where where generally would they be
52:02you've got I mean to have that downward
52:05shot it's really hard to put a shoulder
52:08shot on that trajectory just because
52:09it's so low because even a small person
52:12going like this four feet four foot two
52:15even if you put the barrel on the quail
52:17and it'd be above the hole so it just
52:21doesn't make any sense
52:23okay next slide please
52:28so this is without the guy up front
52:31because you concluded this is where the
52:32person would have been
52:34yes for a person of this height this is
52:37this is to me because of its proximity
52:40or closeness to the empty shell casings
52:46now let's look at the doghouse
52:48trajectory shot next
52:50okay now
52:52explain that green line
52:54uh the green line here is the shot
52:56trajectory into the doghouse
53:00and this is this is the same shooter
53:03again and it looks like he's standing on
53:06the sheet there but all that would tell
53:08me if this did occur then the body was
53:11not there this was a shot would have
53:12come before the body fell to the ground
53:14that is correct and so again you have a
53:16shooter low on the hip
53:19um that's where that person would have
53:20to be to follow that upward line so the
53:22same exact shooter now that shooter is
53:25shooting down I slid that person on the
53:28line until it was shooting down and what
53:31I discovered was it's basically in the
53:33exact same spot you know maybe one step
53:35away maybe two steps away but the two
53:39shots were made from very close to each
53:42other right so now what we've done
53:44and is
53:46the two shots cross each other at a
53:49point and at that point
53:52is right beside where the shell casings
53:54were ejected relatively close to it
53:58don't know where Maggie was when these
54:00shots were made is that correct correct
54:02so we heard from I think one of the
54:04state's witnesses that
54:09strike that
54:10what if anything did we hear from the
54:12states experts about the relative
54:13position of Maggie and whoever shot
54:17the only thing that I heard was is that
54:20maybe two of the shots were done at less
54:22than three feet because of stippling to
54:24the skin
54:25and what about the relative position of
54:28the shooter and her prior to that all
54:30right
54:31nothing nothing specific or definitive
54:33so
54:35um
54:37let's see the next one
54:40what is that this is a shooter because
54:43this shot's going down this shooter is
54:45shooting from the shoulder which can be
54:47done with this shot and if you're
54:49shooting from the shoulder you got to be
54:50further back so that's that's just to
54:52illustrate
54:54that's the range of possibility you know
54:57from the shoulder from the hip or down
54:59low that was the thing we just saw is
55:01that also consistent with where the
55:03shell casings are it is that that could
55:05be consistent too
55:07next slide please
55:11both shots go ahead
55:15so what does this depict
55:16so this is a the shooter
55:19making both shots
55:22and you'll see and uh and there there's
55:24a couple different angles I could show
55:27you but they're really close
55:29and they're in the right location
55:31relative to the empty shell casings so
55:35what that says it's not I'm not saying
55:37it's exactly there because there's some
55:38variables to it but I find it
55:40interesting that the two shot
55:42trajectories cross
55:43at a point where both shots can be made
55:46and they're at the right location
55:48relative to those empty shell casings so
55:51in my opinion when these two shots were
55:53made at least these two shots
55:55that the shooter was standing right in
55:58that area
55:59okay next
56:02and what does this depict this is the
56:04same
56:05thing I just described except a little
56:07bit different angle so there you may
56:09have a shooter taking two steps forward
56:12depending on which one was fired first
56:14right or two steps backwards but you
56:18know within a generally small area those
56:21where those shots were fired from
56:25is that the same
56:27that is the same thing that you know the
56:29shooters from the hip
56:31if if you have the shooter shooting from
56:33the hip it makes a lot of sense that
56:36with a little bit of movement the
56:38shooter can produce both of those shots
56:40and have it agree with the evidence that
56:42uh special agent Worley collected okay
56:45next
56:48now we're gonna don't go to it his well
56:53let's get to that in just a minute
56:55based on your analysis of and tell us
56:58how you came to conclude the range of
57:01heights for the person shooting from
57:03those distances tell us how that works
57:05okay so
57:08so we're able to locate the weapon where
57:10the weapon was and that's what you say
57:13locate the weapon what do you mean by
57:15that locate the weapon on the green line
57:17okay so say locate the weapon is it the
57:20muzzle is it
57:21the whole Barrel right because the
57:24bullet starts its path inside the barrel
57:26and when it leaves the barrel it finds
57:27the target okay so you can slide that
57:29Barrel up and down the green line
57:30correct okay tell us how you get to a
57:33height for the shooter so for the
57:35purposes of what I've been showing you
57:36is is that I started putting different
57:39height people and the trajectory
57:42analysis and so what I've been showing
57:44you is a person that's five foot two
57:47versus how tall the shooters how tall
57:49five foot two
57:51could be someone a little taller
57:52crouching down a little bit could be
57:54five three five four yes so between five
57:57two and five four yeah the shooter
58:00because what happens if let's say if you
58:02put a five four person even
58:05or five five six
58:07um in kind of that shooting position
58:09from the hip you've got to move them all
58:11the way up to the quail pin and it
58:13doesn't make any sense there because
58:14there's no shell casings and it starts
58:17to not make any sense why would a person
58:19stand right in front of the quail pin a
58:22few feet away and shoot into it
58:24and as you slide it back
58:28what happened in terms of it and this is
58:31all trigonometry these are angled it's
58:33just trigonometry
58:34so again you have five two people what
58:37happens is if
58:39if I move those people back
58:43um well take the coil pan to begin with
58:45yeah with the quail pen if if you start
58:47to move the shoe to the quail pin back
58:49then you're down to you start getting to
58:52you know less than five foot two very
58:55quickly because that's that shot is
58:58going up
58:59and
59:02what you what you have here is that you
59:05know this is as far back is is basically
59:07I could justify putting a 5-2 shooter
59:10and how did you come to five two I mean
59:12what did you look at any data
59:15well again these These are actual people
59:18that were scanned in and so so these are
59:21five to what happens is for instance if
59:24you you know I tried it with a 5'4 tried
59:27it with a five nine and it just Why
59:29didn't that work because it puts the
59:31person under the shed close to the quail
59:33pin doesn't make much sense being under
59:35there there are no shell casings there
59:38so in order to get the shooter at the
59:41cross of the two
59:42shot trajectories near the
59:45empty casings
59:47then you've gotta you've got to lower
59:49that shot
59:55okay next slide please
59:58okay let's let's look at this okay some
1:00:01measurements we don't need to look at
1:00:02each one of these but go ahead go ahead
1:00:04go ahead
1:00:06go ahead
1:00:08now
1:00:09let's hold on for one second before we
1:00:12go to that
1:00:13so in terms of Alec Murdoch who is how
1:00:16tall is he
1:00:186364. okay and
1:00:21um he took a measurement of him this
1:00:23morning correct yes and what did you
1:00:25measure I measured to his kneecap to his
1:00:28kneecap and how how much um what was
1:00:31what was the distance between the bottom
1:00:33of his foot and his kneecap 25 inches
1:00:36okay now explain why that's relevant to
1:00:39what we're talking about
1:00:40well I mean the obvious question is is
1:00:42well what if you were six four and not
1:00:44five two what does that mean
1:00:47so
1:00:48what that means is is that the shooting
1:00:50hand the bottom of the shooting hand
1:00:53Force somebody the height of Alex
1:00:55Murdoch would be right at and below his
1:01:00kneecap so his shooting hand would be
1:01:03below his kneecap yes
1:01:07what does that tell you well
1:01:10it puts the shooter or whoever fired the
1:01:13weapon if they were that tall it puts
1:01:16them in a
1:01:17an unrealistic shooting position it's
1:01:20not an Aiming position it's not a
1:01:23shooting position
1:01:25um
1:01:25it would be something other than a you
1:01:29know a shooting position where you were
1:01:31on your feet so it would be
1:01:34um
1:01:35again it would be very difficult
1:01:37difficult you would have to be bending
1:01:39over and have your shooting hand down at
1:01:42or below your kneecap and what's
1:01:44important about that to me is is that
1:01:47um it just just makes it very unlikely
1:01:50that a tall person made that shot
1:01:57um more likely that it'd be more likely
1:02:00that a person between five two and five
1:02:01four five those shots correct yes yes
1:02:11can I have um yeah
1:02:17Maybe
1:02:24can I have a red or black pen or
1:02:27something you can have a
1:02:32thank you
1:02:34so I think I'll take the red one okay
1:02:39okay yeah that's fine that's right there
1:02:42thanks
1:02:44so
1:02:46I had one of these the shots you had
1:02:49with the two the shooters and their
1:02:51alignment blown out can you step down
1:02:54here please
1:03:03and let's see how we're going to do this
1:03:06you stand over here
1:03:17and so
1:03:21explain to the jury why they've got to
1:03:23be five foot two I'm just blown up
1:03:26um why would it be popular to I mean how
1:03:29if if this guy moves forward this way
1:03:31for either one of them move forward what
1:03:34happens to the barrel of the gun yeah so
1:03:36what happens is that if you move them
1:03:38forward
1:03:39they can be taller up until a point
1:03:42where we talked about before at some
1:03:44point time even shooting from the hip
1:03:46you still have to be very close to the
1:03:48quail pin
1:03:49if I move them back
1:03:51either two things have to happen is they
1:03:53have to be even shorter and five two or
1:03:56they have to be in some unnatural or
1:03:59kind of like an unreasonable shooting
1:04:01position I mean obviously you could you
1:04:04could have somebody laying on the ground
1:04:06taking a shot they could be really loud
1:04:08of any height right so but what I'm what
1:04:12I'm doing here is is that as you move
1:04:14these people back the gun has to be
1:04:17lower and lower and lower to the ground
1:04:19when you move it forward the gun has to
1:04:21be higher so then you start looking at
1:04:23where are the shell casings the shell
1:04:25casings are here
1:04:27so if you move a person back let's say
1:04:29where they're laying on the ground right
1:04:32and they're shooting like in a sniper
1:04:34position like on their elbows and laying
1:04:36down flat there's no shell casings back
1:04:38there because the shell casings are
1:04:40being ejected to the right maybe to the
1:04:42back we don't really know but at least
1:04:44it's going to be back here this area
1:04:46where Maggie's body was found
1:04:49where the the collection of empty shell
1:04:52casings are found
1:04:53because some of these were close range
1:04:55but some of them are spread over here is
1:04:57going to put
1:04:59the shooter here well it certainly puts
1:05:02the weapon there and then the net then
1:05:05what you have to do is go through the
1:05:06default process of how can somebody hold
1:05:08the weapon that height off the ground
1:05:11okay now if you've got a tall person and
1:05:13they're coming this way towards the
1:05:15quail paint
1:05:17um let's say a six three six four person
1:05:20can can they how close would they have
1:05:23to be to the quail band to shoot the
1:05:25bullet at that angle
1:05:28um into the quail pin well it would be
1:05:30difficult it wouldn't be either a hip
1:05:32shot or a shoulder shot you would have
1:05:34to for somebody who's tall because again
1:05:38um you have a tape measure but the hole
1:05:41in the quail pin is at four foot two
1:05:43okay
1:05:45so
1:05:46we got one right
1:05:51right so let's just say
1:05:55see a sticker or something any what a
1:05:57sticker
1:06:01so 12 pin shot is right here
1:06:11so that's that's the height it went into
1:06:13the coil point right so I'm 510 right
1:06:17she's all maybe five eleven right so
1:06:19it's going 30 degrees up so there's I'm
1:06:22saying that's about flat let's just say
1:06:24that's three degrees and I'm standing at
1:06:26the quail pin I would have to do like
1:06:28that or I could do this right not from
1:06:33the hip
1:06:34I'd have to come in here like this which
1:06:37of course is possible
1:06:38just like that what about six four and
1:06:42if you're 64 it would be you know
1:06:45a lot taller than I am and so you would
1:06:48you know you would have to go through
1:06:49that thought process of how the shooter
1:06:52could could and of course as you come
1:06:54back off the quail pad the only place
1:06:56you see shell casings are back here
1:06:59yes this empty shell casings there's
1:07:02some right by the body there's one
1:07:04underneath the body and then
1:07:06I believe it's two three and four or
1:07:09here five six and seven are here but two
1:07:12three and four are here but the shells
1:07:14are being ejected to the right and maybe
1:07:17slightly doctorate and so can you say to
1:07:20a degree of engineering certainty more
1:07:22probably than not that whoever shot this
1:07:24shot or these shots well first of all
1:07:27the quail pad shot was five two to five
1:07:31four that is the most likely explanation
1:07:33yes okay
1:07:36and and we know that um Alex is 6'4 yes
1:07:40so could you say to a degree of
1:07:42engineering certainly more probably than
1:07:44not that Alec Murdoch on the night of
1:07:46June 7th did not file that fire that
1:07:48shot into play open
1:07:50in my opinion it's very unlikely that he
1:07:52buy that shop
1:07:55okay now um in reviewing the swipe file
1:07:58did you see whether or not
1:08:00um they did any analysis like this have
1:08:03you seen any charts any pharaohs
1:08:06anything indicating that sled ever
1:08:07looked at these uh shot engines before
1:08:10no
1:08:12go ahead
1:08:18this is probably going to go another
1:08:20extended probably another hour before
1:08:22I'm done I just look at see it's one
1:08:24o'clock I don't want you want me to
1:08:25continue or do you want to take a lunch
1:08:27break
1:08:28well we can break for lunch now that's
1:08:30what you want to do
1:08:31you may proceed
1:08:40with the quail Pan and the dog house but
1:08:43I got to tell you over lunch I was
1:08:45thinking about how to demonstrate
1:08:49a little more graphically what you're
1:08:51saying
1:08:52your honor may take this weapon out of
1:08:54its box
1:08:55yes sir thank you
1:09:12okay if I keep a point
1:09:15do you recognize this do you know what
1:09:17this is yes what is it uh it's the uh I
1:09:21think it's a you know I can Exemplar 300
1:09:24Blackout rifle
1:09:27um and this is the weapon
1:09:29or weapon like this that the shooter
1:09:32would have had
1:09:33yes
1:09:34Okay so
1:09:38I'm trying to sort of get a visual
1:09:41of
1:09:44come down here so I don't Point At You
1:09:49or maybe let me come up there and come
1:09:51this way
1:09:52okay
1:09:58so I'm not five foot two or five foot
1:10:01four I think you should probably
1:10:03but position me
1:10:07foreign
1:10:08tempting but um
1:10:12I don't know how I can do this so I'm
1:10:14not pointing at somebody I guess what we
1:10:17do is we need to do to come back here
1:10:21okay so position me as that shooter
1:10:25would be I'm trying to figure out where
1:10:29the hole has gone up here down here
1:10:31where
1:10:32and then you want to
1:10:34push it down on the hip your wrist will
1:10:37have to bend this bridge
1:10:39um
1:10:42right
1:10:46like this yeah and you obviously you
1:10:50could you could crouch in some sort of a
1:10:52Shooter's stance
1:10:53but that's not much lower than that
1:10:55that's going to be variable yes
1:10:56okay and as I approach
1:10:59the quail
1:11:02Pan the gun has to go
1:11:05stays the same angle right but for
1:11:09different height people the gun has to
1:11:11get higher and higher right like that
1:11:14and if I go backwards it's got to get
1:11:15lower and lower right because if you
1:11:19walked up to the quail pin
1:11:22the holes 50 inches above the ground
1:11:24which is right here so I'd have to be
1:11:27like slightly down right like this for
1:11:30your height right about just like a
1:11:32little bit lower not about like that
1:11:34so that's a quail paint That's Quail
1:11:37point so you can see if you back up you
1:11:40have to get lower and lower
1:11:42and lower not what but the gun has to
1:11:44stay the same angle oh so it's got to be
1:11:46up but I go down you go down
1:11:50to put the barrel on that green line
1:11:54so if I'm six foot four
1:11:59and you measured uh Alex's to knee right
1:12:04so where would this gun be placed on me
1:12:06if I'm six foot four well if if you're
1:12:09six foot four
1:12:11um you know your hip is going to be
1:12:13about
1:12:16about 46 inches
1:12:21which will be about right here
1:12:22and it's 46 right and so you're you've
1:12:26got your
1:12:27trigger him like about where your hip is
1:12:30so it would have to be
1:12:33your trigger hand is going to have to be
1:12:34up where I've got I'm pinching the tape
1:12:36measure and this is how far away from
1:12:38the uh
1:12:40well it could be anywhere but but if you
1:12:43if you raise it some more
1:12:46a little bit lower
1:12:48right
1:12:50so then you know if you're at the quail
1:12:53pin
1:12:54the hole is right here
1:13:04I think you'd have to be pretty low
1:13:06right yes it has to be here it has to be
1:13:09very low that's why it's it's to get a
1:13:12position that would be either shooting
1:13:14or aiming right or you know a basic
1:13:18shooting position
1:13:19foreign
1:13:22if you're bending over in some other
1:13:25body position
1:13:26that may be you know maybe somewhat of
1:13:29an awkward shooting position then you
1:13:31can be taller right you can be taller
1:13:33than the five two to five foot but his I
1:13:36think he told us his foot to knee was 25
1:13:39inches 25 inches and would it be and I
1:13:43mean proportionally for me fortunately
1:13:46for you your trigger hand is going to
1:13:48have to be about down where your kneecap
1:13:49is right right here about like that
1:13:52right and then point upwards three
1:13:54degrees
1:13:55that that would be the equivalent of
1:13:58somebody who's six foot four
1:14:00in the area where the two shot lines
1:14:02cross
1:14:03shooting into the quail pin they would
1:14:06be holding the gun like that if they
1:14:08were on their feet
1:14:12okay thank you please take a stand
1:14:28Okay so
1:14:32based on the angles
1:14:35and the basically trigonometry is what
1:14:37you're saying
1:14:39um you say the shooter would have been
1:14:41between five two and five four and back
1:14:45to have them
1:14:49ejected shells
1:14:52in the appropriate place
1:14:54you've marked that place on
1:14:57this sketch
1:14:59for these two these two folks are that's
1:15:01sort of the range yes and uh you can see
1:15:04some of the ejected shells but they're
1:15:06right beside the body right just off
1:15:09where I've got the yellow sticky okay
1:15:11that is the area where you have
1:15:16um I believe uh two three and four
1:15:19so three empty 300 Blackout case cases
1:15:24okay and that would be consistent with
1:15:27the position of the shooters in this
1:15:30position and based on the angle of the
1:15:38The Birdcage the bird
1:15:41cage
1:15:43they would be somewhere between five two
1:15:45and five four that is correct to have to
1:15:48have a shot from the hip the lower part
1:15:50I mean almost crouched downhill yes
1:15:54now
1:15:55let's move on
1:15:57in our presentation and I'm going to try
1:15:59to expedite this a little bit and Skip
1:16:01some slides because you and I were too
1:16:03detailed when we talked about this
1:16:06and it's uh the afternoon so let's go
1:16:10with the Paul murdaugh first shot tell
1:16:12us what this is yeah I said this was um
1:16:15these first pictures are from the night
1:16:18of the murders and that's inside the
1:16:20feed room
1:16:22on the South Wall of the feed room
1:16:24there's just a regular window and what's
1:16:26that those are pellet holes from The
1:16:29Buckshot they're nine pellets in
1:16:31Buckshot this particular load of
1:16:33Buckshot okay and um
1:16:36what did you do so what I did what next
1:16:39picture
1:16:41when I looked at the there's the window
1:16:43from the outside of the feed room when I
1:16:45looked at the crime scene pictures I
1:16:46noticed that one of The Buckshot pellets
1:16:49hit a pine tree
1:16:50and sled
1:16:52take took a picture of that damage to
1:16:54the bark of the pine tree
1:16:56and so when I was there there the tree
1:16:59there's like a stand of pine trees that
1:17:01have been planted behind the kennels
1:17:03right and so what I did they're nine
1:17:05pellets but the pellets had already
1:17:06spread out by the time they went through
1:17:08the window in fact there was one pellet
1:17:09still wedged in the windowsill itself
1:17:11that you found that I found
1:17:13um but there there was a tree and it had
1:17:16some ivy on it but it had damage and so
1:17:19what I did was I located that damaged
1:17:22tree and put a mark on it but just put
1:17:24some yellow tape there I went back in
1:17:26the feed room if you look at the
1:17:28pictures of the feed room there are some
1:17:30bloody Footprints from tennis shoes and
1:17:32it's it's uh just as I believe it was uh
1:17:34Chief Deputy Kenzie talked about
1:17:37Paul being about Midway in the room
1:17:39that's that's the approximate location
1:17:41so I stood there but I knew Paul got
1:17:44shot in the chest
1:17:45so I lowered my head
1:17:47about eye to chest level and I looked
1:17:50through each hole until I saw the tape
1:17:53on the tree which is where the sap was
1:17:55coming out where the pellet had hit it
1:17:57so I determined which hole in the window
1:17:59belonged to that pellet and then what I
1:18:01did instead of using a trajectory Rod or
1:18:04laser it was daytime I did the old
1:18:06school method which I stretched a neon
1:18:09pink string from the damage of the tree
1:18:12through the hole in the window
1:18:14out out the door
1:18:16because from what I've understood
1:18:20you know this shot
1:18:22was taken within three feet or so
1:18:25because it was stippling on this wind
1:18:28here so what I did was I basically took
1:18:30the string out as far as you needed to
1:18:31go and which is what is in that picture
1:18:35there this would be that string yes that
1:18:37is simply a string it's pulled tight
1:18:40from the sap coming out of the tree with
1:18:42a buckshot pellet hit it through the
1:18:44hole in the window and then back through
1:18:46the feed room to I set up a tripod in
1:18:49the door so that that's this that is the
1:18:51shot line or the trajectory
1:18:55of the uh the the pellets in the shotgun
1:18:59and there's
1:19:00that's where the damage to the tree is
1:19:02it's it's leaking sap
1:19:04okay
1:19:06and that was the that was the hole in
1:19:09the window that if I stood where Paul
1:19:12roughly where Paul was
1:19:15um shot in the chest it was the only
1:19:16hole that lined up with that tree
1:19:20okay and then what is this and that
1:19:22shows uh basically at the door sill the
1:19:25threshold of the door to the feed room
1:19:27the height of the shot
1:19:29which was
1:19:36at the door sill it's three foot eleven
1:19:39okay but on an upward trajectory upward
1:19:42trajectory
1:19:44next
1:19:45and so so what I did there is just to
1:19:49demonstrate it
1:19:50obviously because there's a string there
1:19:52can't put
1:19:53the barrel right on the string line like
1:19:55we did in the computer with the green
1:19:56lines I just held it beside it I'm five
1:19:58foot ten I have normal shoes on here
1:20:01that's the stance that I would have to
1:20:03take to shoot up that string so and at
1:20:06what height would that hit Paul in the
1:20:08chest on that
1:20:11um that's that's like about right at my
1:20:13hip or so
1:20:15yeah maybe maybe just a maybe just a
1:20:18little bit lower than my hip if you
1:20:19looked at the butt of the gun and I'm
1:20:215'10 you're how tall five ten so it's
1:20:24somebody not five two to five four but
1:20:27somebody's slightly taller
1:20:29right or yeah or moving the gun up and
1:20:32down again there's there's a variable
1:20:34here of course
1:20:36and then what I did was demonstrate
1:20:37because there have been some you know
1:20:39talk well that's me standing again I'm
1:20:43fairly comparable in height to Paul
1:20:45Murdock
1:20:46and what I did was I just let the string
1:20:49Touch where the wound is in his chest
1:20:50the entry wound and if you look where my
1:20:53feet are you'll see I'm just beyond the
1:20:55door which is right where the bloody
1:20:56Footprints are so another way of
1:20:58confirming that this this all makes
1:21:00sense here
1:21:01those are the bloody Footprints that's
1:21:03about where I'm standing when this
1:21:05picture of me was taken with the stream
1:21:07going through you know we're within you
1:21:11know a few inches or so and then the
1:21:13idea there that would be
1:21:15um you know inconsistent with say
1:21:17somebody might hide I think there's one
1:21:19more picture here just to drive the
1:21:21point home like if I shouldered a
1:21:23shotgun and shot into the feed room that
1:21:25wouldn't work the gun needs to be lower
1:21:29um so similar Concepts as we said before
1:21:31but just done a different way okay
1:21:37okay let's talk a little bit about
1:21:39before we get into acoustical testing
1:21:40let's talk a little bit about the second
1:21:43shot
1:21:44on Paul yes
1:21:47um and
1:21:49I believe you watched my
1:21:51cross-examination of Deputy Kinsey
1:21:54correct yes and
1:21:56um his testimony was
1:21:59Earth objection do you remember what his
1:22:02testimony was yes go ahead
1:22:04he analyzed the data and the physical
1:22:07evidence and he was thinking that
1:22:10um the shock was about 135 degrees
1:22:14relative to the ground
1:22:16and maybe plus or minus five degrees and
1:22:19that he took a height for Paul's
1:22:22shoulder about four foot seven he was
1:22:24going between a couple of data points
1:22:26that he had and so he had four foot
1:22:29seven
1:22:30and then what you have to consider is is
1:22:33that basically that's 90 degrees and
1:22:36then so 135 is here it's 90 plus 45 so
1:22:39it's a 45 degree angle into the shoulder
1:22:43but the consideration was is that they
1:22:45didn't see any stippling on Paul's
1:22:47shoulder so you have to back the weapon
1:22:49up
1:22:50and typically
1:22:52you're looking at three filter glass for
1:22:54stippling he's he a pine that well maybe
1:22:57it was two feet because it wouldn't work
1:22:59out and the reason it wouldn't work out
1:23:00if you back up a normal size shotgun
1:23:03three feet to get no stippling it puts
1:23:06the butt of the gun under the concrete
1:23:08or through the concrete so of course
1:23:10that wouldn't work right
1:23:12so he had to adjust the distance for
1:23:14stippling right he said well maybe maybe
1:23:17you know it didn't work out that way so
1:23:18maybe the step maybe two feet
1:23:22um
1:23:22the correct way to do that of course
1:23:24though would be to test the shotgun and
1:23:26or the ammunition at least because we
1:23:28don't have the shotgun but test the
1:23:30ammunition does it cause stippling at
1:23:32three feet or two feet
1:23:33that would be the correct way to do that
1:23:36but if you take three feet of stippling
1:23:37which is
1:23:39what this State medical examiner
1:23:41examiner Miss Reimer testified to if you
1:23:44take three feet in a normal size shotgun
1:23:46that 135 doesn't work because the butt
1:23:49of the gun will be into the concrete or
1:23:50you know below the below the ground and
1:23:52I think we may have he and I may have
1:23:53demonstrated that with a little red dot
1:23:56yes you did a hand-drawn exhibit okay so
1:23:59um you would disagree with his
1:24:00assessment that the
1:24:0345 degree angler shot with possible with
1:24:06a normal size shotgun
1:24:08and adopting Dr reamer's
1:24:13three feet any further not to be
1:24:15stippling it'd have to be three feet or
1:24:17further correct it doesn't work out
1:24:19dimensionally okay
1:24:21so
1:24:23now
1:24:26tell us about acoustical testing and as
1:24:30briefly as possible okay so um I was
1:24:33asked a question which is if a person is
1:24:36in the main house
1:24:38would they be able to hear gunshots at
1:24:41the Kennels
1:24:42and so the way that you do this is you
1:24:45do acoustical testing and I could spend
1:24:47a long time talking about this but you
1:24:49guys probably don't want to hear all of
1:24:51this but let me just tell you in general
1:24:52how this is done
1:24:54so what happens is when you have a
1:24:57gunshot is impulsive noise it's very
1:24:59quick
1:25:00gunshot probably only lasts about 10
1:25:02milliseconds it's very loud the
1:25:05threshold of pain is about 140 decibels
1:25:08now when you move 10 decibels like 140
1:25:11to 150 it's twice as loud
1:25:13so you'll see what I recorded these
1:25:16weapons with a special instrument and
1:25:19you'll see how loud they are
1:25:21and the idea is is that will the sound
1:25:24attenuate decrease enough when it
1:25:27reaches the house and there are a lot of
1:25:29considerations I consider there's a
1:25:30little Grove of trees you have you don't
1:25:33have a hard reflecting surface it's
1:25:36pasture
1:25:38trees and sand you also have a a
1:25:41well-built house double pane windows
1:25:44wood paneling so it's going to have at
1:25:48least a normal
1:25:50um
1:25:51a normal sound attorney or normal sound
1:25:54attenuation properties in other words
1:25:55you know if you shut all your windows
1:25:57you shut all your doors there's a noise
1:25:58outside depending on how loud that is
1:26:01you may not hear it so what I did was I
1:26:03set up testing it's it's it's the same
1:26:05testing it's called military standard uh
1:26:081474. that um the military has has
1:26:12concerns about soldiers firing weapons
1:26:14and causing hearing damage they want to
1:26:16know how often can we send them to the
1:26:18range or what kind of hearing protection
1:26:20how many rounds can they fire in a day
1:26:22that sort of thing so I just set up the
1:26:24testing and in a nutshell the uh the
1:26:27blackout rifle we got an Exemplar
1:26:30blackout same ammunition involved in
1:26:32this case we got 12 gauge shotgun we got
1:26:35bird shot we got
1:26:37Buckshot basically the shotgun is around
1:26:40155 DB DB is is decibel and when we
1:26:45measure sound it's not on a regular
1:26:47scale and the reason is is because we
1:26:50can we can hear the the threshold of
1:26:52human hearing is very very minor
1:26:55and then we can hear loud noises like a
1:26:58rock concert so if it was like a
1:27:00speedometer your speedometer would have
1:27:01to go to like zero to a million it's not
1:27:04practical so we make it a log scale and
1:27:07all and all you really need to take away
1:27:08from that is is if you have something a
1:27:10sound that's
1:27:1250 DB
1:27:1360 DB is twice as loud that's how we
1:27:16perceive it if you have normal hearing
1:27:18and then the the idea is is that like
1:27:21the background in the courtroom here
1:27:23there's a little bit of noise going on
1:27:24but when everybody's quiet it's probably
1:27:27maybe 45 DB in here right so if a sound
1:27:30is 55 DB we're all going to hear it no
1:27:33problem if a sound is like 45 DB we may
1:27:36not hear it at all unless we're really
1:27:38listening for it or if it's a really
1:27:40quiet sound like 25 decibels or 30
1:27:43decibels we would never hear it it's
1:27:45just the same thing as
1:27:47you could be at a rock concert and the
1:27:49person beside you was trying to talk to
1:27:51you and you can't hear them even though
1:27:52they're talking in a normal voice you
1:27:54just can't hear them because your
1:27:55background is too high
1:27:58you know they're talking in a voice like
1:27:59I am without the microphone it'd be
1:28:01about 70 DB but your rock concert's 110
1:28:05DB right so all we're doing here is
1:28:07we're comparing sound
1:28:09I did the testing and also
1:28:13um
1:28:14went back and just used the theoretical
1:28:17calculations for the propagation of
1:28:20sound to make sure that my results which
1:28:23I took on January the 5th of this year
1:28:26were the same as the results that you
1:28:29would have gotten if you would have done
1:28:30the testing on June the 7th 2021 you
1:28:34have to take into account humidity
1:28:36temperature pressure
1:28:39the wind direction those types of things
1:28:41so I did that
1:28:43so what is this slide depict
1:28:45so that's an overhead shot of Moselle
1:28:47from the center of the dog kennels the
1:28:50area where all the evidence is to the
1:28:53center of the house the main house at
1:28:54Moselle it's um
1:28:571142 feet so
1:28:591142 feet
1:29:01okay but um there's a crow Flash as the
1:29:05growth wise okay next
1:29:08and this is
1:29:12looking past the doghouse to the kennels
1:29:15yes so you're looking towards the
1:29:17Kennels
1:29:18the
1:29:19the door on the right end of the kennels
1:29:22is the feed room that's that's the area
1:29:24uh where Paul's body was found and then
1:29:28the doghouse is there what I'm showing
1:29:31here is is that there is there is a a
1:29:33backdrop to this area which is
1:29:35vegetation and trees
1:29:38for reasonably closed distances you have
1:29:41to take into account the vegetation in
1:29:43the trees at longer distances the sound
1:29:45can carry because the sound
1:29:48when I when I shoot the gun the sound is
1:29:50going to expand like you're blowing up a
1:29:52bubble right it's just going to get
1:29:54bigger and bigger and bigger but the
1:29:55bigger that bubble gets the weaker it
1:29:57gets just like the sound and and
1:29:59eventually it goes away next
1:30:04what is this depict that's looking back
1:30:06towards the house to show you can't see
1:30:08the house here but that's looking
1:30:10straight back towards the house to show
1:30:12that if you were going to do some
1:30:14calculations you have to take into
1:30:15account there there is a a barrier of
1:30:17trees in the way okay next
1:30:20all right what is this device all right
1:30:22that is a sound pressure level meter and
1:30:25it's a it's a type 1 which is a high
1:30:27precision
1:30:30um normally when you're recording sound
1:30:32sound is somewhat continuous and you can
1:30:34use a high grade meter this is a special
1:30:37meter that's designed to capture
1:30:38gunshots because
1:30:40you're talking
1:30:43um you know 20 microseconds thousandths
1:30:46of a second the rise of that pressure
1:30:48wave of shooting a gun so you have both
1:30:50the gases escaping from the gun and you
1:30:52have the sonic boom of the bullet
1:30:54leaving the gun so it's complex noise
1:30:57and you have to have a meter that can
1:30:59that is fast enough to catch it and
1:31:00that's what that meter is next
1:31:04what is that uh that's a little weather
1:31:07station I had so I was recording the
1:31:09weather before and after the testing
1:31:10because I knew that I was going to go
1:31:12back and pull the weather history for
1:31:14the night of the murders and just see
1:31:16what kind of Correction factors needed
1:31:18to be applied to my testing just curious
1:31:20curiosity if the humidity was high that
1:31:22night but low then how do you how do you
1:31:25adjust that
1:31:26um well there are charts and tables it's
1:31:29just standard okay conversion right and
1:31:32the humidity was higher in June than it
1:31:35was when I did it January the
1:31:36temperature was about the same humidity
1:31:38was different but you've got tables in
1:31:39charge calculations
1:31:42physics or whether it's for the results
1:31:44of this all of these all of these
1:31:46modifications or adjustments that you
1:31:48would make really don't make a
1:31:49difference because that the
1:31:53the results were were so far apart or
1:31:55like what you would have to have to be
1:31:58able to hear a gunshot inside the house
1:32:00it really didn't matter you didn't have
1:32:02to make good Corrections for temperature
1:32:04and stuff that I did anyway
1:32:07that just shows where you had
1:32:09um
1:32:10that instrument set up next
1:32:14again picture where the instrument set
1:32:16up next
1:32:17so why do you have a
1:32:20measuring
1:32:21item there between so what what you're
1:32:24doing and so I took a piece of dental
1:32:26floss tied it to the muzzle and then
1:32:29anchored it so that I knew that the
1:32:31muzzle was was one meter it's a little
1:32:33over a yard from the microphone and the
1:32:36reason you do that is is that so you
1:32:38fire this gun let's say it's 165 DB so
1:32:41for every doubling a distance it's going
1:32:43to lose 6 DB
1:32:45six decibels so that one one meter it's
1:32:48165.
1:32:49at two meters it's going to be 159 at 4
1:32:54meters is going to be 153 and so on and
1:32:56so on because every doubling of distance
1:32:59that's theoretical then you have to add
1:33:01correction factors but that's especially
1:33:03to ensure that your responses you're
1:33:05recording your calculations are as
1:33:06accurate as possible correct I'm just
1:33:08following the mill standard here what's
1:33:10standard it's a military United States
1:33:12military so you talked about before okay
1:33:14next
1:33:16that would be the ammunition you used
1:33:18these slides are just showing what I use
1:33:21to do the testing so this is the 300
1:33:23Blackout neck
1:33:25is that a 300 Blackout yes okay next
1:33:30that would be the 300 Blackout Yes
1:33:32actually
1:33:33that would be the shotgun yes 12 gauge
1:33:36yes okay next uh that would be the
1:33:39Buckshot he used yes
1:33:44okay and that would be the bird shot the
1:33:47turkey load bird shot yes you use right
1:33:49yes
1:33:53and this is the inside of the house
1:33:56that's inside the den of the house and
1:33:58what I did there was I took background
1:34:01readings
1:34:02in the quiet house it's really quiet
1:34:04because you're way out in the country
1:34:06there I mean there's no traffic so it
1:34:09was about 35 decibels in the house which
1:34:11is equivalent to say a quiet bedroom
1:34:13yeah the air conditioning on
1:34:15um I believe the air was was working the
1:34:18refrigerator was running but it was very
1:34:20quiet okay
1:34:21um and then so what I did was I set up
1:34:23some equipment there to measure the
1:34:24background we also of course we turned
1:34:26on the TV normal volume so that's up
1:34:29around 68 DB 70 DB
1:34:33um you know depending on how how you
1:34:34want to listen to We put a movie in and
1:34:37I just had that so two background levels
1:34:39in the house and then the next question
1:34:41is when you fire a gun at the Kennels
1:34:44you hear it you're not hear it how loud
1:34:46is it okay next
1:34:51so what is that well we did we shot the
1:34:54blackout out around the doghouse and
1:34:57then we shot the shotgun into the feed
1:34:59room out of the feed room and then cut
1:35:02with the muzzle outside the feed room so
1:35:05we shot into the feed room we shot out
1:35:07of the feet so we're just trying to
1:35:08figure out is there anything about the
1:35:11shape of the feed room that really
1:35:12changes the really changes the character
1:35:15of the shot the takeaway is is yes it
1:35:18muffles the sound if you shoot into the
1:35:20feed room it's not hard to understand
1:35:21but the blackout was much louder than
1:35:24the shotgun
1:35:25and it was shot over by the doghouse
1:35:27where the shell casings found yes okay
1:35:31and that is what you shot in the feed
1:35:35room yes it's a ballistic gel dummy it
1:35:37gave us something to shoot into okay
1:35:39thanks
1:35:44quite sure what that is it's just more
1:35:46just pictures just showing the testing
1:35:48okay
1:35:51same okay next
1:35:53and this is the various indoor and
1:35:57outdoor sound levels and could you
1:36:00rather than reading all of this could
1:36:01you sort of give us an overview of are
1:36:04these the results of those shots you
1:36:06made now this is just actually um just
1:36:08from the literature if there was a
1:36:10discussion about different decibel
1:36:11levels but you know
1:36:14um
1:36:14you know vacuum cleaner 70 decibels yeah
1:36:17quiet conversation 55 a dishwasher in
1:36:20the Next Room is 50. you know and on and
1:36:23on you know okay you know loud noises to
1:36:26soft noises next
1:36:28I think that's just a blow up with the
1:36:30last slide
1:36:31okay okay so
1:36:34what does all that mean uh just as a
1:36:37comparison to my numbers these are these
1:36:39are other people's test numbers
1:36:40basically done the same way I did it and
1:36:43you have a bunch of rifles and they're
1:36:45between you have 166 decibels
1:36:48163 161 and there therefore so basically
1:36:53your rifles all the way down to a 22
1:36:55which is like 143 decibel but if you're
1:36:58if you're shooting a rifle with a decent
1:37:01size cartridge then you're looking at
1:37:04something from 160 to 165 DB
1:37:08next
1:37:10this is a similar chart of other
1:37:13people's work doing the same thing and
1:37:15for shotguns and basically your shotguns
1:37:18are going to be 150 to 160 DB so not as
1:37:22loud a little bit quieter but obviously
1:37:2412 gauge still is is a loud gun next
1:37:29okay here 's all these are my results so
1:37:32basically the blackout was right at 165
1:37:35DB and the shotgun was at 155 DB so the
1:37:41results that I got from the testing were
1:37:44in line with testing that other people
1:37:46have been doing okay next
1:37:50Okay so
1:37:54you want us to play this
1:37:56sure go ahead what wait a second what is
1:37:59this
1:38:00this is an audio file
1:38:02um you know I could present numbers
1:38:03graphs but what I did here just to get
1:38:05the point across and here's the bottom
1:38:07line
1:38:09this will be the 300 Blackout
1:38:13uh fired in the loudest Direction
1:38:15because we tried north south east west
1:38:18but this is fired in the loudest
1:38:19Direction
1:38:20I'm sitting in the den the doors and
1:38:23windows are shut TV's not on so it's as
1:38:26quiet as it possibly can be
1:38:28and I'm sitting there listening for the
1:38:30shot but you can gauge the sound of the
1:38:32shot
1:38:33and I'm I got a microphone now but I you
1:38:36know I'm talking on this
1:38:38audio recording the same way I'm talking
1:38:40right now
1:38:42play it please
1:38:45okay I'm ready
1:38:46um I'm gonna give you a countdown and
1:38:48then you let Michael shoot and then go
1:38:50ahead and mute your phone please
1:38:53three
1:38:55two
1:38:57one
1:38:59shoot
1:39:05all right stand by
1:39:19yes so it was about one second before I
1:39:22said all right
1:39:24foreign
1:39:25so
1:39:26you could barely hear it and we were all
1:39:28listening for it so if you were in the
1:39:31house even if you were walking around
1:39:32you wouldn't hear that I could barely
1:39:34hear it
1:39:36and I was listening for it so what that
1:39:38tells you is that the sound inside the
1:39:40house
1:39:42is right at right at that background
1:39:45level it's kind of sitting right in your
1:39:47background At the quiet house and so
1:39:50if if you were doing any any kind of
1:39:52activities inside the house you wouldn't
1:39:53hear it and certainly if you had the TV
1:39:55on which will be remember 10 DB is twice
1:39:58as loud so it's 35 if you've got the TV
1:40:01on there's no way you could hear that
1:40:03shot so do you have a
1:40:05engineering professional acoustical
1:40:07opinion more probably than not as to
1:40:10whether somebody in that house
1:40:12without the TV not listing for it would
1:40:16hear that those shots those blackout
1:40:19shots down at the dog pound I do and
1:40:22what is it you would not be able to hear
1:40:24it
1:40:25and the shotgun I assume was quieter so
1:40:27it'd be even less of an opportunity to
1:40:29hear that yeah there were times we fired
1:40:32the shotgun in a quiet house and you
1:40:33couldn't hear it at all
1:40:34yeah
1:40:36I've got just a few more questions
1:40:40okay with any more slides
1:40:43I think there's some more slides of it I
1:40:45think we've covered unless you want to
1:40:47get more
1:40:50no keep going
1:40:53I don't think we need to do that keep
1:40:54going
1:40:55keep going
1:40:57keep going
1:40:58keep going
1:41:00that's it nope good
1:41:03um
1:41:04your honor I'd like to offer into
1:41:05evidence a printout of that
1:41:11no addiction
1:41:13submitted without objections
1:41:16this would be exhibit number
1:41:20140.
1:41:25indulge
1:41:44okay now let's go to one last matter
1:41:48and you indicated you've done accident
1:41:50reconstruction yes and I have a number
1:41:52of questions about
1:41:57I guess all mostly physics
1:42:00um
1:42:01but let me ask you
1:42:06if you've seen this document before
1:42:21you recognize that yes okay don't tell
1:42:23me what it is yet
1:42:27foreign
1:43:06um any objection just just a question
1:43:13um this graphic creator of your
1:43:16supervision yes okay and then there's
1:43:18another one which is 142.
1:43:33yeah there we go
1:43:35so we'd offer 141 and 142 into evidence
1:43:40no objections they admitted
1:43:58and that's 142. okay hold on to both of
1:44:01those so 141
1:44:04is
1:44:07speed from Moselle to Almeda which I
1:44:09guess maybe we don't have that on um let
1:44:12me put this on the overhead
1:44:14let's start with 141.
1:44:18can I have the Elmo please
1:44:36and
1:44:45so what is what is this depict this is a
1:44:48graph of the speed of Mr Murdoch's
1:44:51suburban and this is from the trip from
1:44:53Moselle to his parents house and that
1:44:55would be on the night of June 7th yes
1:44:57and each one of those little vertical
1:44:59lines the blue lines represents three
1:45:01seconds
1:45:02okay so
1:45:04um
1:45:06two things
1:45:14you look at
1:45:16141
1:45:18and you look at the time
1:45:24at 907
1:45:26has Mr murdaugh left his home
1:45:37well actually the one that you've got up
1:45:39is the um is the return trip I believe
1:45:46that's right
1:45:49just put an idea
1:45:54which one do you want
1:45:56the first question
1:46:18is that better
1:46:20yes that's the CR that that's 141 there
1:46:23right and at 907 as he left left Moselle
1:46:30have you independently checked the data
1:46:33behind this and determine where he was
1:46:35at 907. yes where was he uh on the chart
1:46:40he would be
1:46:42um
1:46:43that first rise there yeah there's a
1:46:46little bit of a dip but then it rises
1:46:48all the way up
1:46:50um it's a little bit over 60 miles an
1:46:51hour there is right before the dip in
1:46:53the middle the dip in the middle is when
1:46:55he sent a text message so just slight
1:46:57slowing no back over
1:46:59back back that little dip right there
1:47:01right so 907 is going to be right before
1:47:04you get to that dip
1:47:06okay
1:47:08hold on one second
1:47:28so um this graph starts at 907 does it
1:47:31not
1:47:32yes okay so it means that he is in
1:47:35Moselle at 907. yes okay
1:47:38um questions are confusing after he
1:47:41leaves there
1:47:43um
1:47:45does does he slow down I mean after he
1:47:49turns onto the motel Highway does he
1:47:50slow down at all for any of any any
1:47:53point until minutes down the road not
1:47:57until he's down the road he's building
1:47:58speed when he passes that what you just
1:48:01asked the cell phone location he's
1:48:02passing through the mid 40s
1:48:04didn't slow down at the at the um at
1:48:07where the where Maggie's cell phone is
1:48:09on the side of the road correct
1:48:12it was actually accelerating a little
1:48:13bit as he went through there just like I
1:48:15think 42 to 44 or something
1:48:20is that about right
1:48:26okay so as he drove past
1:48:29I think you've testified that or
1:48:31Maggie's cell phone was thrown out on
1:48:33the side of the road
1:48:35tell us
1:48:37approximately what he was doing was he
1:48:39accelerating decelerating stopping what
1:48:41was he doing he was speeding up so he
1:48:43was speeding up from you know
1:48:4642 43 44 45 miles per hour as he goes
1:48:50through that area any indication he
1:48:52stopped to slow down no okay
1:48:54now um
1:49:01so
1:49:04you study Physics or you actually
1:49:07testify about physics
1:49:09um if someone were throwing a phone from
1:49:12a moving vehicle
1:49:22into and I believe you went down and
1:49:24looked at the area where the Maggie's
1:49:27phone was found right yes
1:49:29would there be any uh what describe for
1:49:33me the kinetics of that passion beyond
1:49:35the scope of the expertise
1:49:38beyond the scope of what
1:49:40couldn't hear your objection objection
1:49:42beyond the scope of his expertise in the
1:49:45response but yes sir he is a mechanical
1:49:48engineer we're talking about a
1:49:50mechanical motion he's done action
1:49:53reconstructions where they have to
1:49:55determine the Motions of certain objects
1:49:57during that wreck
1:49:59um
1:50:01perhaps I could even ask him are you
1:50:03confident you can give us an expert
1:50:04opinion on how a moving object would
1:50:08move if thrown from a moving car
1:50:12in the injection
1:50:14okay
1:50:22um
1:50:24now you've also done I've looked at a
1:50:28number of crime scene photos correct yes
1:50:30and you understand where Maggie's body
1:50:33was yes and you understand where Paul's
1:50:36body was yes would a vehicle first of
1:50:40all tell me the typical head wise to the
1:50:43headlights on a Suburban how far out
1:50:45would they go how far out would you be
1:50:47able to see with them
1:50:49uh well it depends on the object that
1:50:51you're looking at the low beams modern
1:50:53low beams
1:50:56um you're going to be able to see about
1:50:57250 feet in front of the vehicle along
1:50:59the ground and what about the the
1:51:02width of the vision yeah there'll be a
1:51:04spread out to the side as the headlight
1:51:06beam pattern bends around it maybe 20
1:51:10feet or so on either side of the vehicle
1:51:11depends on whether it's the left or the
1:51:13right and depends on the color of the
1:51:16objects on the ground but yes the the
1:51:19area in front of the Suburban would be
1:51:21well lit and I believe you saw the
1:51:24Suburbans placement in the photos
1:51:27after the police officers arrived
1:51:29correct
1:51:31well yeah I have seen the photographs
1:51:33and I also have seen the path that the
1:51:35Suburban took by the GPS points as it
1:51:37drove up to the kennels and based on
1:51:39those do you have an opinion as to
1:51:41whether or not Alec murdaugh who was if
1:51:43he was driving that vehicle would have
1:51:44been able to see
1:51:46beyond the scope of his expertise
1:51:49I need to hear the complete question
1:51:51before entertaining an objection
1:51:54based on your knowledge of the function
1:51:57of the headlights on a motor vehicle do
1:51:59you ever look at that in terms of
1:52:01um uh motor vehicle actions that you
1:52:05investigate I look at it all the time
1:52:07car pedestrian accidents it's a
1:52:09well-known area of study in my field so
1:52:12would you have to be able to give an
1:52:13opinion as to what someone would be able
1:52:15to see
1:52:16with their headlights yes you do it all
1:52:19the time yes
1:52:21so do you have an opinion to a degree of
1:52:23mechanical engineering more probably
1:52:25than not whether Alec Murdoch would have
1:52:27been able to see Paul and Maggie's
1:52:29bodies as he pulled up
1:52:31action calls for speculation beyond the
1:52:34scope and no Foundation laid for that
1:52:35line of question that's the standard
1:52:37objection
1:52:40okay you looked at the
1:52:43photographs of the scene right yes you
1:52:47looked at the GPS data to see where that
1:52:49vehicle pulled initially right yes I'm
1:52:53talking about the Suburban you routinely
1:52:56take that same data in a mechanical and
1:52:59and not a mechanic in a motor vehicle
1:53:00action you've been qualified to testify
1:53:03about motor vehicle motor vehicle
1:53:05accidents they agreed to that tell me
1:53:08would
1:53:11someone driving that vehicle been able
1:53:13to see in their headlights the bodies of
1:53:16Paul and Maggie at that GPS location and
1:53:19again I'm going to object your honor
1:53:20same thing calls for speculation
1:53:23go ahead uh yes they would they would
1:53:25definitely be available to be seen I
1:53:28can't say what Mr Murdoch saw but you're
1:53:30talking about objects that are maybe 25
1:53:32feet in front of the Suburban and
1:53:35directly in front of the Suburban with
1:53:37low beam headlights on flat level ground
1:53:39it would illuminate the whole area
1:53:42under the shed between the shed and the
1:53:44kennels and the kennels so his
1:53:47headlights would definitely illuminate
1:53:49that area begged of course until
1:54:13in your career in investigating motor
1:54:16vehicle accidents have you ever had the
1:54:19opportunity to look at how objects
1:54:23behave if they are thrown from or broken
1:54:27off from a motor vehicle that's in Iraq
1:54:30sure the most common thing is say a
1:54:34motorcycle rider who hits a car and
1:54:36flies through the air so there are ways
1:54:39that you can analyze the trajectory say
1:54:42an object flying through the air to a
1:54:43certain speed what happens when that
1:54:45object hits the ground the other thing
1:54:47that you see like objects coming off
1:54:49trucks
1:54:50unfortunately things come off trucks all
1:54:52the time and they bounce on the highway
1:54:55or fall off and they go through people's
1:54:57windshields so it's it's simple
1:54:59ballistics it's straightforward
1:55:02kinematics of objects moving through
1:55:07some sort of a trajectory and then also
1:55:10what happens once they strike the ground
1:55:12how do they slow down of course it
1:55:14depends on the surface but you know how
1:55:16does an object slow down once it's
1:55:18flying through the air like if if a rock
1:55:21comes off a dump truck and the dump
1:55:22truck's going 55
1:55:24when the rock hits the ground it's going
1:55:26to be going 55 so it's not just going to
1:55:28stop it's going to continue traveling
1:55:30until it rolls and tumbles and slows
1:55:33down
1:55:35let me get back to a question that is an
1:55:38object this size the size of my cell
1:55:40phone if it separated from the vehicle
1:55:43Throne fell off or whatever on a car
1:55:45that's going whatever the speed limit
1:55:47they're 45 miles an hour and it's it it
1:55:51headed head over to where you saw
1:55:54Maggie's phone found would it rotate
1:55:57more than 45 degrees in the air
1:55:59objection
1:56:02speculation no Foundation laid
1:56:08he studied this this is what he does he
1:56:11studied according to what
1:56:13there's no worse things being not in
1:56:15dispute by the state uh since he was no
1:56:19challenge to his
1:56:20qualifications than any of the areas
1:56:22that you offer them in question is
1:56:26whether this calls for speculation are
1:56:29you speculating or is this based on
1:56:30years of study and and uh physics I mean
1:56:34what you do
1:56:35uh no it would be based on physics
1:56:39no speculation there you're on it
1:56:43you're all right
1:56:45permission to approach permission to
1:56:48approach
1:56:49approach
1:56:52let's all stand for a moment yes
1:57:03okay let me see if I can ask this in a
1:57:06very concise way and then I promise I
1:57:08will sit there
1:57:10okay
1:57:11so the objects moving from a moving
1:57:15vehicle or even I mean moving vehicle
1:57:18like something this size if it's going
1:57:21through the air and the car is going 45
1:57:23miles an hour will it
1:57:25tumble
1:57:27unless it's a spherical object will it
1:57:29tumble
1:57:31well it depends on how it's separated
1:57:33like you said from the car or thrown
1:57:35from the car however it gets away from
1:57:37the car you need to know that before you
1:57:39know what it's going to do in the air
1:57:40but the one thing's for sure it's going
1:57:43to hit the ground at 45 miles per hour
1:57:45which is 66 feet per second so as soon
1:57:48as the phone hits the ground
1:57:50it's going to want to come to a stop
1:57:52right so that phone will tumble and
1:57:55slide if it was just like grass just
1:57:57like flat grass it's going to go about
1:58:00115 to 120 feet
1:58:03that's how long it's going to take that
1:58:04phone to slow down from 45 miles per
1:58:06hour in the area where the phone came
1:58:09out there there's like some saplings and
1:58:10brush and pine straw I doubt it went
1:58:13that far but it would it would
1:58:15definitely you know tumble through the
1:58:17edge of the woods there built more than
1:58:1945 degrees sure
1:58:23one one um
1:58:28and when you say tumble it would
1:58:32tumble correct
1:58:34it moved
1:58:36Head Over Heels perhaps yes that's
1:58:39what's going to happen to uh too and you
1:58:41know it doesn't have to be a phone but
1:58:42any any object a brick or anything like
1:58:44that it's going to roll and Tumble
1:58:46maybe if the surface is uh flat enough
1:58:49it might even slide one last question
1:58:55um you looked at the data on the speed
1:58:58data on the Suburban returning on the
1:59:01night of the seventh from Almeda to
1:59:05Moselle correct yes
1:59:07and the state mentioned that there are a
1:59:10couple of times where his or at least
1:59:12one time where speed goes up to 80 comes
1:59:15back down or tell us what's happening
1:59:17with those Peaks the 70 and the 80.
1:59:20well if you look at exhibit 142.
1:59:25um
1:59:26this graph represents the speed so the
1:59:28higher the peak
1:59:30the higher the speed the sharper the
1:59:32peak is the smaller amount of time that
1:59:36he spent at that speed so like the one
1:59:37in the middle that goes to 80 miles an
1:59:39hour is just for just a second or so a
1:59:42couple seconds because each one of those
1:59:44blue lines represents three seconds so
1:59:46what that shows you is is that
1:59:48he does reach high speeds on the return
1:59:51trip but it's not for a long period of
1:59:53time and that's why the basically the
1:59:55average speed of Mr Murdoch coming back
1:59:58to Moselle is about the same as what
2:00:01sled drove it right because you're not
2:00:05really changing the average speed that
2:00:06much because you you're driving faster
2:00:08but just for little periods of time is
2:00:10that consistent with somebody passing a
2:00:11car
2:00:13uh it could be
2:00:14but it's just up and down it's not like
2:00:1680 miles an hour all the way back to
2:00:18motel that's correct that's correct
2:00:20right
2:00:23from Alameda I apologize beg the course
2:00:25Indulgence
2:00:34ladies and gentlemen we'll take a break
2:00:36now please do not discuss the case

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