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Feminism, Free Speech, & Gamergate | Christina Hoff Sommers | WOMEN | Rubin Report — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:02all right we're going to mix it up this
0:03week and talk about something a little
0:05less controversial than usual feminism
0:09everyone agrees on that right okay good
0:11that's what I thought uh my guest this
0:12week is Christina Hoff Summers Christina
0:15is a former philosophy Professor author
0:18and a speaker for the American
0:20Enterprise Institute known for her
0:22critique of late 20th century feminism
0:25over the past few months I've become
0:26familiar with Christina because her name
0:28kept popping up all over my Twitter feed
0:30at first related to gamergate and now
0:33because of her tongue and cheek
0:34commentary on campus Free Speech trigger
0:37warnings and safe spaces actually thanks
0:39to Twitter and to all of you who've
0:41helped connect me with like-minded
0:43people the show is really taken off in a
0:45way I couldn't have imagine suddenly I
0:46find myself immersed with people I truly
0:49admire and respect we're all talking to
0:51each other in various mediums and
0:53strengthening the ideals we stand for
0:55even if we don't agree on every specific
0:58issue one such issue that haven't
1:00tackled too deeply yet is feminism and
1:03that's exactly why I wanted to have
1:04Christina on as an equity feminist
1:07Christina cares about both women's and
1:10men's rights you know that whole two
1:12things can be true at once idea that
1:14I've been talking about I should say
1:16that feminism in and of itself isn't one
1:18of my bread and butter topics as you
1:19guys know I love discussing politics
1:21foreign policy religion secularism and
1:23more but haven't done a ton on the topic
1:26of feminism of course the argument could
1:28be made that feminism and the fight for
1:30women's rights is an absolute through
1:32line through all of the topics I just
1:34mentioned generally speaking where women
1:35are treated with equality we see Fair
1:38societies with more secular values and
1:40less radicalism this isn't a coincidence
1:42nor is it something that should be
1:43overlooked actually if anything it
1:45should be embraced if a society treats
1:47their women fairly it is almost always a
1:50more successful Society on every other
1:53front the battle for equality of women
1:54has been different all over the world
1:56and continues in almost every form today
1:59this is one of the main issues that I
2:00want to discuss with Christina how has
2:02the battle for equality evolved over the
2:04years have there been unintended
2:06consequences by coming so far in the
2:08battle has feminism morphed into
2:10something that feminists of the 1960s
2:12wouldn't even recognize today and what
2:15happens when an equality movement
2:17actually accomplishes its goals do we
2:20move on to what's next or do the battle
2:21never truly end as you can see I've got
2:24a lot of questions and I hope Christina
2:25has some of the answers for me the
2:27battle for women's rights is the same
2:29battle that has been fought by the other
2:30for all time I want women to have 100%
2:33of the opportunity that men have I want
2:35the doors to be open and the glass
2:36ceiling to be shattered winning these
2:38battles doesn't mean it has to come at
2:40the expense of men nor does it mean that
2:42men should suddenly become less than
2:43women and at the same time we should
2:45acknowledge the Sexes are actually
2:47different and that's okay too from our
2:49hunter gatherer days to today gender
2:51roles have existed long before any of us
2:54pretending there aren't some differences
2:56in the Sexes won't magically make it
2:58true perhaps we can try to to embrace
3:00these differences rather than tacking
3:02labels on everyone and thinking that one
3:04group's equality can only come at the
3:06expense of another group's opportunity
3:09if men are from ours and women are from
3:10Venus then perhaps it's time we brought
3:12both sexes back to
3:16Earth my guest this week is a speaker
3:18and author and host of the factual
3:20feminist on YouTube she's known as Bas
3:23mom by the gamergate gang and just
3:25finished a three-hour conversation with
3:27Joe Rogan so I hope you have a little
3:29something left Christina Hoff Summers
3:31welcome to the show oh lovely to be here
3:33do you have a little something left I do
3:35I do I'm just getting started yeah so
3:37you guys you did three did you go a
3:38little over where were you with Jo long
3:41just three in his little man cave there
3:43it was a very cozy little Studio well
3:45right before we sat down we were saying
3:47how there's this new gang sort of that
3:49has appeared sort of you Joe Milo me a
3:53few other people that sort of have
3:55magically connected even though just
3:57months ago we really didn't know each
3:59other and yet we're all talking about a
4:01lot of the same stuff it's pretty cool
4:03right right and and I think that what we
4:05are is we're rejecting the cultural
4:08authoritarians and so we come from
4:10different political places but we share
4:12this commitment to freedom and you know
4:15just Live and Let Live what happened to
4:17that what happened to that all right so
4:19I want to spend a lot of time talking
4:20about the cultural Libertarians and the
4:23authoritarians and all of that starian
4:25but first let's start uh somewhere else
4:27let's start with based mom because
4:29that's the phrase that popped up many
4:30times and I see people tweeting this
4:32anytime I'm involved in a in a Twitter
4:34thing with you bass mom what is what
4:35does that actually mean for the person
4:37that doesn't at first I thought it meant
4:39cool mom and I was happy with that but
4:41it turns out it means something very
4:43positive and just as good but different
4:46in the lingo of the gamers and I don't
4:48maybe they got it from a rap song or
4:50something but based means grounded
4:53authentic no BS yeah they would say and
4:57um so that's what I am and I'm happy to
4:58be based mom I like being a mom which I
5:00am and being based is obviously a good
5:02thing so yeah there you go all right so
5:06uh so let's start with the factual
5:07feminist let's go there first I want to
5:09do a little history of feminism but what
5:11brought you personally to be doing these
5:15types of videos and talking about this
5:17stuff just your journey a little bit
5:19well I've always been a I was a
5:21professor for many years and wrote schol
5:23scholarly articles and books and I
5:25wasn't doing videos on YouTube I thought
5:28that was a at the time I thought was
5:29about I don't know
5:31cats it's still mostly cat it's still
5:33mostly cats yeah and um but this uh the
5:38young man came to AEI and wanted to get
5:41the scholars on the air and he did
5:43videos with all of us and then he came
5:44to me and said you we want to put you on
5:47I want you to have a weekly show just
5:48come and talk and I said about what what
5:51are you talking about and he said and in
5:53no more than five minutes preferably
5:56four yeah and how do I do that but I
5:58started to do it I thought okay once a
6:00week approximately I will go on and
6:03correct a feminist myth because there
6:05are so many and I just wanted the
6:07opportunity to reason with people to
6:10analyze some of these factoids fids we
6:13are in inundated with Miz information if
6:16you excuse the pun just false
6:17information about women they tend to
6:20exaggerate they these researchers SL
6:23activists tend to exaggerate women's
6:25vulnerability and to overstate the
6:26strength of men when in fact it's a
6:28complicated myth
6:30of benefits and burdens for both sexes
6:33and so when they say oh women are being
6:35cheated out of
6:3723 on the dollar and four being sexually
6:41assaulted it just turns out these are
6:44ridiculous exaggerations and the truth
6:47is entirely different and so I just
6:50patiently try
6:52to you know expose the myths when I
6:55first started my mother said well
6:57darling aren't you going to run out of
6:58topics I said Mom I will never run out
7:01of topics because we have had going on
7:04you know three decades
7:06of specious research coming out of
7:09gender studies and it all needs to be
7:11reconsidered some of it might be right I
7:13I occasionally I find something that's
7:16not uh you know been just Twisted into
7:20um uh a myth and so so I I correct a
7:23myth every week yeah so before we dive
7:26right into the feminist stuff how do you
7:27like being in this space because obvious
7:29viously it is new to you to be in the
7:31YouTube space and interacting with
7:32people like and Twitter and all that
7:35Gamers I've never video game really yeah
7:37I mean did you ever expect to be sort of
7:39a hero to the gamergate community I want
7:41to talk about that later too but just
7:42being in this interesting digital new
7:44thing no no I didn't think I would I
7:48remember a few years ago before I was on
7:50Twitter I said oh I'll never do that I
7:52don't know how to do that I just it was
7:54unapproachable well now I can't get off
7:56it it's so addicting yeah but um I
7:59didn't expect it but I'm happy to do it
8:01because here's the thing about that I
8:03like about Twitter is I don't just give
8:05a message I link if people are
8:07interested I try to back up everything I
8:09say with solid scholarship and Link I
8:11link to the best sources I can find or
8:13to my own work that I've done for over
8:16the decades so I link to books and
8:18articles if people are interested so
8:20it's it's as if all of my writing has a
8:21new life yeah and it's also very
8:23validating I think to be in the space
8:25that we are when there's so much
8:27misinformation related to whatever
8:29whether it's feminism or political
8:30correctness or any of this there's and
8:32there's so many Bad actors I think in
8:34this space to so many angry people yeah
8:37but but for us it's nice that we can be
8:38like look here's some information and
8:40then we can go back and forth when we
8:41want and it's it's uh it's very freeing
8:44to me I find and then when I'm able to
8:46connect with like-minded people I find
8:47it to be great I find it great and all I
8:50ever wanted as a college professor I
8:52never saw it as my position to sort of
8:55replicate my view of the world in the
8:57minds of my students heaven forbid B I
9:00wanted to open the world to them show
9:01them the best that was thought and said
9:04on different contentious issues in in
9:06metaphysics and ethics as well as when
9:08when I was teaching occasionally would
9:10teach gender Theory but when I taught
9:12gender Theory I I found that there was
9:14the the the
9:16closed-mindedness combined with a kind
9:18of a pension for conspiracy theories
9:21paranoid theories about the patriarchy
9:24that didn't happens not to exist at
9:26least not certainly not in the United
9:27States or Western Europe and uh I just I
9:31I thought if I had you know my ideal
9:34University I would take I would have
9:36some radicals there because you can
9:37always learn from people that are
9:38pushing the envelope sure but you don't
9:40only have radicals and in gender
9:42scholarship it may be a bit of an
9:44overstatement but I don't think so yeah
9:45really that's all we have okay so before
9:48we get to all that let's back up a
9:49little let's just lay out some basic
9:51definitions because I do find that with
9:53a lot of this people don't even
9:54understand what a feminist is anymore
9:55you know you have your first wave
9:56feminist your second wave feminist third
9:58wave feminists uh now there's things
10:00beyond that that that you've coined um
10:03so can you just break down some of the
10:04basic what what was the first feminist
10:06movement just give me a couple
10:08breakdowns well that would be the
10:10suffrage movement and that was the
10:12struggle for the vote and then after
10:16women earned the vote uh there was a
10:19period of quesence and we didn't hear
10:21much from feminists throughout the 30s
10:23the 40s the 50s then it came back in the
10:26late 60s early 70s and that was the
10:29second second wave and it had work to do
10:30there were a lot of just arbitrary
10:32barriers preventing women holding women
10:36back they needed to be taken down it was
10:38obviously time to do that and so this
10:40was stuff more like in the workforce
10:41things like that changing the workplace
10:43changing
10:44education um addressing things of uh you
10:48know legally for women to have more
10:51defenses against harassment in the
10:52workplace and so forth all that I was
10:55totally on board that's just basic quest
10:57for equality
10:59but what happened is that the second
11:03wave of feminism a lot of the women in
11:05the universities were quite radical and
11:09they were not about equality they were
11:11not about I see feminism the best of
11:13feminism it came from the European
11:14Enlightenment and it was about the
11:17intrinsic Dignity of all men and women
11:20and extending equality of opportunity
11:23and Liberty and so forth to to all um
11:26they many of them reject the
11:27Enlightenment and they're not about fre
11:29freedom and freedom of expression and
11:31they are really they use their
11:34classrooms I think to promote a very
11:36rigid world view about how women are
11:38prayed upon by men and it's almost as if
11:40the as if better things got for women
11:43the more bitterer they became and I
11:45watched this from close up because I was
11:47teaching in the University I watched and
11:48I kept thinking they would be
11:50discredited because it their views will
11:53not withstand 20 minutes in a seminar
11:55room with some just objective Scholars
11:59right but they do not subject their
12:01research to scrutiny of objective
12:03Scholars they re they they evaluate one
12:06another right so there was this a
12:07strange example of where things could
12:09exist sort of in the academic world
12:12where perhaps they wouldn't these ideas
12:13wouldn't have played out in the real
12:14world well they didn't and they I didn't
12:16see them in the real world and I thought
12:19they would be contained in the academy
12:20and then would go away that has not
12:22happened and partly because of social
12:25media and these Twitter mobs and things
12:27that's come into the mainstream and now
12:30we hear there the words like trigger
12:33warning oh we're going to get to plenty
12:34of that we should have issued a trigger
12:36warning before we sat down oh we should
12:37have yes I I am a walking trigger
12:40warning do you consider this a safe
12:42space I'm feeling fairly fairly freaked
12:47a little micro aggressed upon but not
12:49too much um okay so then that was that
12:52was second wave feminism right second
12:55evolved into that but the second wave
12:56had a radical extreme and that extreme
13:00became the mean because they got a
13:02monopoly on the uh professorships M and
13:05that's what you would refer to then as
13:07third wave feminism well third yeah
13:08third wave is probably the
13:10intersectional feminism or you know
13:12there are various names for it but it's
13:15uh it didn't correct the excesses of
13:17second wave feminism it took those
13:19excesses and made them even more extreme
13:22yeah now what would you say to the
13:23people that would say well all along
13:24that ride even though even if they were
13:26to acknowledge some of the things that
13:28you're saying all along that right
13:29things basically were getting better for
13:31women so maybe there was some reasoning
13:33behind it you know there was some
13:36reasoning but at a certain point what
13:38you had is just people it was kind of a
13:41power grab and there were women like me
13:44Camille Pia a lot of libertarian
13:45feminists dissident feminists we were
13:47just disinvited from to the party and
13:51students didn't have the benefit of
13:52hearing a range of opinion on
13:55contentious issues take something like
13:57well something like the wage G
13:59yeah it if you are an economist and you
14:03hear that group a is earning less than
14:05Group B you know you want to know why
14:08they immediately say discrimination they
14:10blame employers and the patriarchy but
14:13if you do the proper controls that any
14:15competent Economist would do and you ask
14:16well how do they differ in any way do
14:18all the men because when you hear that
14:20wage Gap they're just doing the average
14:21of all the men in the workplace working
14:23full-time and all the women well men and
14:26women do not study the same top subjects
14:29in college they do not work the same
14:31number of hours men on average work more
14:33hours they take more dangerous jobs
14:35women are far more likely to take a few
14:37years out of the workplace or more these
14:39are relevant to your earnings so then
14:43what happens when we do the proper
14:44controls and there are very good studies
14:46the the labor department commissioned a
14:48fantastic study that did all the proper
14:51controls it gets to a point where
14:53there're just a few cents you can't
14:54explain now it could be discrimination
14:57and I'm enough of an equity feminist to
14:59worry about that if I'm being cheated
15:00out of a few pennies or women are but
15:02chances are it's not chances are it
15:05would turn out there's some innocent
15:07explanation yeah so uh when it comes to
15:10the wage gaps and things like that so I
15:12watched a whole bunch of videos on it
15:13before I watched the video you did it
15:14you did on it uh before this and partly
15:18what I think is what I think when I
15:19watch most political things or uh almost
15:22anything related to news these days I
15:23never know who to trust that I watch
15:26these studies and I say this study well
15:27why was it done this way who funded this
15:29who funded that how do you in the mix of
15:32all this figure out what to actually
15:34believe what I do excuse me as the
15:37factual feminist I try to determine well
15:39where who's the best source where is who
15:42sets the gold standard for This research
15:45so when it comes to education nothing
15:48surpasses the uh the depart education
15:52the Department of Education they collect
15:54statistics and they they are very good
15:56when it comes to Crime do I believe
15:59feminist activist that tells me that
16:00we're all you know the majority of women
16:02or or a quarter of women are being raped
16:04and assaulted and battered or more um it
16:08I go to the Bureau of Justice statistics
16:10and look at what the what do the
16:12statisticians who do
16:14careful and highly
16:18disciplined statistical analyses what do
16:20they find and they find it something
16:22very different they find rape is a
16:24terrible horrendous crime but it is
16:26fairly rare on the campus is not one in
16:29four and uh or one in five and and so I
16:34present that I show people this is what
16:35they these are what sort of objective
16:39researchers have found these are what
16:41The Advocates have found now some people
16:43just want to believe The Advocates I
16:44don't understand that yeah all right
16:46well I do want to touch on that in a
16:48little bit but just to to finish up just
16:49sort of the the waves of feminism now
16:52you consider yourself and you coined the
16:53phrase I think Equity feminist right uh
16:55can you tell people so an equity
16:57feminist I hope you are we all are is
16:59someone who wants for women what he or
17:01she wants for everyone fair treatment no
17:04discrimination it's basically comes as I
17:07said from the enlightenment it's
17:08classical feminism it's about fairness
17:11it doesn't even have to be called
17:13feminism it's probably humanism or pism
17:16or
17:18equalism and I that's what I assumed
17:20every most people would before today
17:24feminism tends to denote people who are
17:27carried away with mail bashing if I had
17:30to reduce it to a few sentences it would
17:33be Women Are from Venus and Men Are from
17:35hell they seem carried away with with
17:38you know female chauvinism I hate to say
17:40it okay so from there now let's let's
17:42backtrack to what you just said about
17:44the the campus stuff because I know this
17:45is a place where you get a lot of heat
17:47for this when you've talked about the
17:48the rape situation yes I went to
17:49Overland college and everyone was
17:52triggered and 30 people and a dog fled
17:55to a safe space they had a safe room
17:58there was a therap dog apparently and 30
18:00triggered young women and they went to a
18:02safe room and they were so very can we
18:05really try to play parse that out what I
18:07mean what does that actually mean
18:09because I know I know we know what it
18:10means and we joke about this stuff all
18:12the time but they literally because you
18:15were coming to speak they felt that I
18:17would give them
18:18PTSD now I have been lecturing on
18:20campuses for years and it used to be
18:23they'd come and argue and sometimes we'd
18:25part as friends or go to a bar and you
18:27know have kind of have a good time like
18:28like human beings yeah and if someone
18:31presents me with some good data and good
18:32arguments I'll change my mind I've
18:34changed my mind many times and I look
18:36forward to doing it again yeah but they
18:39are were not this something has changed
18:41in the last few years on the campus and
18:43there's been this medicalization of of
18:46the of the curriculum and they they need
18:48trigger warnings for their classes and
18:49Trigger warnings for this and that and
18:51as I said they needed them for me and
18:53they needed a safe space where they
18:55could Retreat because as one of them put
18:58it someone would be invalidating my
19:00experience it's like the worst thing
19:02that can happen to you right that sound
19:04like a good thing to happen and then
19:06because you can't just go by your
19:07experience you have to test it and and
19:10see if your interpretation holds up to
19:13criticism they were not interested in in
19:16any kind of criticism right so when when
19:19you hear this happen and you and you see
19:21this happen to you and you say okay
19:23here's the empirical evidence about
19:24what's happening with rape on campus and
19:27then they say a what is their
19:30counterargument is the counterargument
19:32that there's more rape that goes under
19:33reported for XY or Z or they're not
19:35counting you know girls that got drugged
19:39or or something I mean what's the I get
19:41that we've become this Society that's
19:43afraid of every bit of information but
19:45what what's the counter AR yeah well
19:47they cite their own studies but I've
19:49spent many years and so many other
19:51people looking at these methodological
19:53failures and that if you there are ways
19:56in which I could we could throw together
19:58a survey tonight and and ask people
20:01questions and find an epidemic of
20:02whatever you want all you have to do is
20:04ask questions that are a little vague
20:06and it helps too to ask a
20:08non-representative sample of people and
20:11um that's what they do they ask they
20:13usually a mix of serious questions but
20:15then a few vague ones that's all you
20:17need now does it mean your study is
20:20going to be valid no does it mean you're
20:21going to generate some useful propaganda
20:23for your cause yes yeah all right so I
20:26saw that that piece at
20:29and then the other thing that I saw you
20:30got heat for was um the the cat calling
20:35right there was this this video about
20:37cat calling and you've sort of said or
20:40written about that this is not really a
20:42thing not really a thing that well it
20:44exists but not a thing to be upset by
20:46sort of well it's complicated and as I
20:48said there are times where it's very
20:50threatening but you have to make
20:52distinctions and this is the basis of
20:54thought I mean human rationality making
20:57distinctions and being out in the Public
20:59Square there are going to be
21:01interactions you know people will come
21:03up with petitions people will beg for
21:05money people will say things it's just
21:07part of being alive yeah and these
21:11control freaks think that we can police
21:14everything that said on the street and
21:15they were actually suggesting that it be
21:17against the law to cat call a woman well
21:20again I make a distinction between
21:21someone saying hi beautiful I mean
21:23frankly that wouldn't bother
21:25me um it might have bothered me when I
21:28was younger but as you get older you
21:29don't mind it right uh but when I wish
21:32somebody saying something disgusting or
21:34frightening that is that's very or
21:36stalking you that's very different but
21:38they they to them it's all the same it's
21:41all a micro or macro aggression and they
21:45want a law against it and and what I
21:47pointed out in my video is that in
21:50Washington DC there's a place where you
21:52can walk and you will be cat called and
21:55I have walked there many times and it's
21:56in a very busy Part near DuPont Circle
21:59and it's a lot of women dressed for
22:01Success you know and their Manola bonics
22:03they're walking through and the men cat
22:05call well the men are homeless you know
22:09people living in this park and they make
22:11comments so there is a huge class
22:14difference between these women are we
22:16supposed to think these women need to be
22:18protected from these guys who are the
22:21have kns right so that's an interesting
22:23discrepancy that it's not Wall Street
22:25Bankers walking down the street making
22:27these comments where then then there's
22:28sort of an added layer of of uh
22:32Financial difference and social status
22:34and all that it's usually coming from
22:36people beneath I suppose not always
22:39often often least NE is that enough to
22:43dismiss it you know I get what you're
22:45saying there's a wild discrepancy
22:46between you know ah you're cute or
22:48whistling at a girl or versus learing
22:50and following her I think men should
22:52know that it it bothers women I'm not
22:55sure it bothers all women I mean I think
22:56it depends on the woman and you know
22:58just it's very complicated yeah I don't
23:01want the women who were the most hyp
23:04sensitive and sort of freaked out about
23:07male attention I don't think they should
23:09be able to write the rules I think they
23:11should consult other women what I
23:14suspect you would find is that it can be
23:16annoying I mean as I said I remember
23:18being younger and being annoyed but it
23:20was mainly well there were uh I mean
23:24didn't happen that much on Wall Street
23:26or right in in in manhatt but um so
23:30there did seem to be an element of class
23:33involved but but I I think you have to
23:38you know I think in different cultures
23:39the women react to it differently there
23:41are different mores and things but in my
23:44neighborhood in Washington DC I don't
23:46see it happening in in where I live so
23:48basically what I sense is you're you're
23:50pretty much saying that your fear in
23:51this would be that if you were to allow
23:54some laws to be passed related to all
23:56this stuff that you're handing the power
23:58over sort of the authoritarian oh you
24:00hand it to the police they can arrest
24:01anybody yeah and it would be these po I
24:03mean I think in DC it would be these
24:05poor guys and uh so I I think you know
24:10most men want to be decent human beings
24:12and they should know women don't
24:13appreciate it and that most don't and
24:17especially if it's in you know kind of
24:19pushy and and certainly if it's
24:22offensive but but then you're not don't
24:24make laws and don't invite the police in
24:27this is there's so much of this in inv
24:30inviting authorities in and some have
24:32called it the pink police state you know
24:34this feminist police state that we have
24:35on campus where you're kids in public
24:38universities the young men are afraid to
24:40tell a joke or to say anything that I
24:43know comedians at comedy clubs that are
24:44afraid to well they better they're
24:46unwelcome on campus it's a hostile
24:48environment for humor yeah and and so
24:50that's why you have to be careful and
24:52sometimes you'll get what you wish for
24:54but then you get a lot more you get a
24:55lot more repression authoritarianism
24:58it's just not worth it yeah so it's some
25:00of that also that the feminism movement
25:03has been a victim of its own success in
25:05a weird way because it seems to me that
25:07feminists now should be fighting so much
25:09more for women's rights in other
25:11countries now of course we have a long
25:13way to go here but when we see all kinds
25:15of horrible things ha you know women
25:17still can't drive in Saudi Arabia one of
25:19our biggest allies in the Gulf you know
25:21this is not an enemy country uh and all
25:24over the Middle East and all over Africa
25:26where women's rights are basically
25:27trampled on if if not non-existent why
25:30don't feminist groups focus on that at
25:32all it you have you do have genuine
25:35patriarchal oppressive societies and and
25:37what what's happening to women's rights
25:39in Iran is terrifying of course in Saudi
25:42Arabia many parts of the world I've been
25:44to International women's conferences and
25:46you meet these women who
25:48represent women from their countries
25:50I've met them from Cambodia and Yemen
25:52and Egypt and so forth and it's it's
25:53very inspiring it's like meeting the
25:55Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Susan
25:57banthony that that the feminist
25:58foremothers of their society yeah and
26:01you would think that the you know on the
26:03campus these young women would be
26:05especially young women that are
26:06idealistic and want to be activists You'
26:08think they'd be making common cause with
26:10those women yeah instead these women at
26:12oberin and Georgetown and Y they're
26:15protesting the men on their campus
26:17because they and they they feel they are
26:20they they feel that they are like these
26:22women that are oppressed in in Iran that
26:24they have it as bad or worse so it's a
26:27it's delusion
26:28yeah so I think there's something much
26:30bigger going on here and I think this is
26:31why so much of our audience especially
26:33on Twitter likes what we're both doing
26:35and what people like Joe Rogan and God
26:37sad and and Milo and many others are
26:40talking about there's some weird
26:42movement of authoritarians where the
26:45left now which is supposed to be about
26:47freeth thinking and debating ideas and
26:49doing this right where the left is now
26:52throwing out half the people I had Sarah
26:54hater on last week and this is an
26:56ex-muslim who stands up for every
26:58liberal ideal the the left should love
27:00her and they shun her at best they
27:02actually treat her worse than than being
27:04shunned when I wrote my first book which
27:06was protesting the the the
27:08authoritarianism of feminism and the
27:10anti-intellectualism the conspiracy
27:12theories all of that uh I expected to
27:15have um a good reception from feminist
27:19Scholars because I just assumed there
27:21was a silent minority of the silent
27:23majority of reasonable women and I did I
27:26heard from some great women and from
27:27Nate naen straon president of the then
27:30president of the
27:31ACLU um I heard from Erica Jang you know
27:35this pro-ex femin feminist novelist and
27:37so for and they were great but my
27:40colleagues in the academy were Furious
27:42that I had criticized and they thought
27:44that criticism was the same as a a kind
27:48of betrayal and show that you were on
27:50the side the side of uh you know the
27:52forces of evil so they didn't just a
27:55disagree with you they thought you were
27:56evil now they don't just agree with you
27:58they think you're evil and that you give
28:00them PTSD yeah so you give them PTSD and
28:02then it also doesn't it give them a
28:04license to say and virtually do anything
28:07they want to you because I could give
28:09you a zillion examples of times where
28:11I've seen anyone that shifts a little
28:13bit away from people on the left where
28:15they are slandered and smeared and WR
28:17horrible fting is it because they do to
28:19other people exactly what they say the
28:22right is doing right they they demonize
28:24they objectify they otherize to use
28:26their word they micro macro they they
28:29they they're are massive macro and micro
28:32and Nano aggressions they don't hesitate
28:34to be rude snarky and there's so much
28:36meanness I don't understand feminism
28:39with meanness it was when I I mean I
28:41know there was some eccentric angry
28:43women from the beginning of the second
28:45way but mostly the lived experience of
28:47most women who were enjoying their
28:49Liberation was happiness and joy and and
28:53being friends with men not going to war
28:55with them yeah so where does this
28:57strange uh collusion of all these people
29:00that all end up on the left doing this I
29:02you know I've said repeatedly on this
29:03show the reason I talk about this all
29:05the time and the reason I tweet about
29:07their aggressive left and want to talk
29:09about this is because I don't want the
29:10left to go over the deep end and that's
29:12why I'm talking about a cross-section
29:13I'm talking with a cross-section of
29:15people from literally all over the world
29:17because I'm afraid what happened to the
29:19right where it went so far right is is
29:21happening to the left right now what
29:23brings these people together do you
29:24think when when often they shouldn't
29:26have a lot in common well I I will tell
29:29you what I know best is among the
29:31feminists is a a small group in the
29:36universities gain control of the
29:38knowledge base I mean what we think we
29:40know about men and women so you're a
29:42journalist and you need to know
29:43something about the wage Gap or you need
29:45to know something about women and in in
29:48in education you go to these people and
29:50they are what the journalist doesn't
29:52know or the politician or the interested
29:54party doesn't know is that they're
29:55spinning and they have an ideology that
29:58drives their research so I think a lot
30:01of people don't realize that there's
30:03it's there's so much uh spirous
30:06scholarship so they take it seriously
30:09and now it's there are untruths
30:14exaggerations um fids factoids that have
30:18been repeated so often they're almost
30:20beyond the reach of rational analysis
30:22and and if you question them you are by
30:25definition uh a sexist or worse so they
30:29got a certain amount of power just
30:31through this the this this information
30:34this scholarship about how in this case
30:36about how oppressed women were yeah so
30:38you have to sympathize and then they
30:40they they then kind of went off the deep
30:42end with this psycho Babble and these
30:44psycho dramas about I'm triggered and
30:47you know I mean at Brown University they
30:50this was a year or so ago and there was
30:51a story about it you may have seen I'm
30:52sure you did in the New York Times by
30:55Judith schvitz at at Brown University
30:58they had a debate so it was a feminist a
31:00two feminists actually a Libertarian
31:02feminist and someone else another
31:04feminist debating uh rape
31:07statistics and you would think that's
31:10perfect what more could the students
31:12want they can hear both sides and their
31:14sides well represented no they didn't
31:16want the debate at all and they formed a
31:19a safe room and in that safe room they
31:21were playing tapes of frolicking puppy
31:24dogs they had bubbles coloring books
31:27Play-Doh oh yeah maybe I made up the
31:29Play-Doh no I think they had play
31:31probably there it there yeah so this is
31:34so infal and again I and many other
31:36feminists of my gener look at it and
31:38think this is
31:40infantilization this is this is the
31:42opposite of what feminism should be and
31:44when I got to college we threw out the
31:47dorm counselors and the the Guardians of
31:50our virtue and all that we wanted to be
31:51in charge so what went wrong do you
31:54think if there was a was there a moment
31:56that it actually something snapped if in
31:59fact something went wrong and the
32:00feminist movement went from these two
32:03extremes what what do you think happened
32:04there well I think I know what happened
32:06no one listens to me I wrote this
32:07article in the J Beast where I
32:09pinpointed what happened these what
32:12should call this these
32:14uh fainting couch feminists and uh
32:18purveyors of myth they've been around
32:19for a long time they've been in gender
32:20studies it's too bad but in um 2011 a
32:25little known uh uh aaric no no a
32:30government official yeah sent out that
32:32was gonna sound
32:33conspiratory if you no no but in this
32:36case it's true she sent out a letter to
32:38all the colleges and universities her
32:40name she was the assistant Secretary of
32:41civil rights russelli and she sent out
32:44to all the colleges and I think her
32:47intention was that they take more
32:48seriously that women are harassed on
32:50campus and there was too much sexual
32:52assault but she went overboard she's
32:54terrified the universities and made it
32:56seem like if they didn't immediately put
32:59all like most men on trial and get them
33:01out of those schools and believe women
33:04because she claimed there was this idem
33:06this epidemic of sexual predation that
33:09the men at at campuses like Yale and
33:11swathmore and so were just praying on
33:13women so she sent this letter and the
33:16schools now can be sued under Title Nine
33:19this e this Equity statute It's a
33:22Wonderful statute it was meant to be
33:23there to give women equal opportunities
33:25in education but it's been Twisted now
33:28and they've kind of declared martial law
33:29on men on the campus because of this
33:32letter was 2011 and you look at that
33:35date and then you see it brought words
33:37like trigger warning and safe space this
33:39whole mindset of rather somewhat
33:43paranoid young women and their mentors
33:46on campus it it gave them the power
33:50to to make a federal case literally of
33:53their perceptions yeah that's so
33:55interesting because I can see the line
33:56now to when you were talking
33:58about the cat calling why the slippery
34:00slope exists if you were to create a law
34:03well then you could be in this similar
34:04sit well now once you have a law they
34:07already had title N9 officers but since
34:092011 that's probably the area of
34:11greatest growth on many campuses they
34:13have dozens and dozens of people
34:15monitoring how the boys are treating the
34:17girls at at at Wesleyan and these are
34:21mostly very privileged kids yeah and
34:23there's a lot of drinking and I'm sure
34:25drunken hookups but they have reded find
34:28drunken hookups to to be rape of the of
34:31the young man against the young woman so
34:33of course they call that then there's a
34:34rape epidemic if you're going to enlarge
34:36the meaning of this horrible orbit
34:37you're going to enlarge it to include
34:39drunken hookups right so I see so
34:43there's so many pieces here that that
34:44are related to feminism and so much of
34:46this authoritarian stuff and the college
34:48stuff uh the Yale thing which we were
34:50both tweeting about that happened a week
34:52and a half ago or so with the professor
34:54that wrote the piece about you know the
34:56the costum Halloween costumes and if you
34:59see someone that's wearing something
35:00offensive either ignore it or use your
35:03free speech to engage them and why you
35:05aren't happy with it and hopefully have
35:07a conversation about it then that
35:09professor's uh husband I believe is the
35:11dean there he got into this uh argument
35:14with the student and the student
35:15basically said and it was all caught on
35:17camera basically said this is not a
35:19place of intellectualism this should be
35:22a home a home I really like it takes a
35:25lot to really get me crazed but I
35:27thought this is dangerous now what's
35:29happening you know and I also I usually
35:31don't feel like a grandpa but I felt
35:32like a grandpa like you kids like how
35:35stupid are you kids but it it really
35:36struck me as now we have something
35:38systemic that we have to turn the is
35:41dangerous and here's why some leftist
35:44I've seen or they're embarrassed by it
35:45who wouldn't be but they say oh it's
35:47just kids acting out no it's not just
35:49kids acting out uh these are kids who
35:52have been fed a lot of bad crazy
35:54information in their ethnic studies or
35:57gender studies where it's highly
35:59politicized scholarship they've had and
36:01they may if they they went to Elite high
36:03schools they probably had it since you
36:05know 10th grade they've been reading
36:08these uh conspiracy theories about how
36:11bad the United State Western culture and
36:14particularly the men it's patriarchal
36:16male hegemony so forth and uh they
36:19believe it and and they do not have much
36:22knowledge of History so if they are
36:25doing things that to people that know
36:28history remind you of the McCarthy era
36:31or even the Salem Witch Trials just in
36:34terms of Hysteria and contagion of
36:37Hysteria um they're not aware of it I
36:39mean and what this is a not this doesn't
36:41happen often but there was one young
36:43woman this is all over not all over but
36:45you can find it on the internet she
36:46burned my book this gleeful young woman
36:49took the wargan boys and burned it h and
36:51I just I just as a teacher and a mother
36:53I just thought burning a book doesn't
36:57have a good history you know right and
37:00now I assume then she tweeted it at you
37:02and put a hat well it was on it was on
37:04Tumblr and someone sent it to me yeah
37:07and I so basically they're they're
37:10creating an atmosphere where almost
37:12everything I mean it really feels 1984
37:15orwellian reverse everything is this
37:17sort of double speak and and reverse of
37:20how we're supposed to have debate right
37:22I mean if you can't have an intellectual
37:24debate in college well how are you going
37:26to get out to the real world to do it
37:28right and the Supreme Court has ruled
37:30many times that freedom of speech is
37:33most important on the college campus it
37:35has refused to uh to uh sanction speech
37:39codes and the courts have refused to do
37:41this uh but schools have them anyway and
37:45um it it it if our universities become
37:48places where you have to be hyper
37:51protective of students protect them from
37:53ideas and your your goal is to achieve
37:56massim amount of comfort and safety you
37:58have undermined the purpose of your
38:01being the purpose of your existence the
38:02universities don't exist for that
38:04purpose going back to the time of of of
38:06the of Socrates the academy was about
38:10debate and and counterargument and yeah
38:14and being able to reason
38:17and yeah well I think that's why people
38:19are responding to us right because we're
38:21trying to bring that back what else do
38:22you think we can do because you know I I
38:25see this stuff and I talk about it all
38:27the time but every now and again I got I
38:29mean 100% honestly I do feel a little
38:32guilty it's rare but I do once in a
38:35while like you know in something like
38:36the what happened at University of
38:37Missouri I empathize with these kids if
38:40they feel you know if there were racist
38:41things happening it the whole thing
38:43sounds a little unclear as to what
38:45exactly was going on the poop swastika
38:47and somebody said N word and all this
38:49but I have no doubt that there is racism
38:51on the campus and there's racism in
38:52Missouri and in the country I have no
38:54doubt so sometimes I do feel a little
38:57maybe guilty isn't the right word but a
38:59little no I understand exactly what
39:01you're saying let's take it then and I
39:02have never really gone on about the race
39:05issues the way I do with the gender
39:07issues I think they're very different
39:09there's a particular history a very
39:11specific history with African-Americans
39:13in the United States and and and I don't
39:17like to see the women's movement
39:18pretending that they're women are have
39:21been oppressed in the same way that is
39:22just not true depends on which women and
39:25if you were an upper middle class white
39:27woman you've had a very different
39:29history yeah and this was supposedly the
39:31great Insight of
39:33intersectional intersectionality but
39:36they didn't seem to apply it very
39:38consistently and certain groups like you
39:41know most men seem to be written out of
39:42it so um it's just not con it's not a
39:45consistent body of work they need to
39:47bring in more critics they need to to
39:49hear from dissidents and um if they
39:53think well ours is a compassionate
39:56movement and they are they're going
39:58after people's jobs and as I said there
40:00are these these sort of Twitter mobs
40:03that want to destroy people's
40:04reputations what did you make of that
40:06professor at Missouri the woman who was
40:07standing there screaming at the reporter
40:11who you know she was saying we need some
40:12muscle around here to get the reporter
40:14out of she was behaving like a a thug it
40:17was thuggish and many of the little
40:19scenes I've seen on the campus is a a
40:22reminiscent of U like these struggle SE
40:25sessions they had in the cultural
40:26revolution and China and those were run
40:28by students I mean it people say well
40:30you wouldn't compare them those people
40:32you know were throwing people out of
40:33Windows I agree that I don't they're not
40:35comparable in that way for one thing
40:37these kids on our campus don't have that
40:39kind of power thank God but that some I
40:42see such they they seem so intoxicated
40:45with hatred and
40:47self-righteousness I don't know what
40:48they would do if they had power real
40:50power they have power to hurt people you
40:52know their jobs and reputations then
40:54that's already awful look at I mean it's
40:56awful happened to so many young men and
40:59I am no apologist for criminals if there
41:00are criminals on campus and taking
41:03advantages of of girls that's awful but
41:06what is more often the case with so many
41:10that we've read about it's young men
41:11that that you know it's like a year
41:14later the girl takes a um the young
41:16woman takes a women's studies class and
41:18rethinks this bad hookup and then he's
41:21brought up on charges sometimes not even
41:23told what the specifics of the charge
41:25are yeah we've had too many of those
41:28and um so that's what worries me is
41:30these people uh get carried away in
41:33these gender studies and other things
41:34and then they they have no regard or
41:36maybe no knowledge of of the first
41:38amendment of due process of of the the
41:41history of the the battle that was
41:43fought for freedom of speech now of
41:45course it will be turned on them so
41:47you're already seeing now feminists are
41:48getting in trouble I think there was a
41:50professor that was hired it was fired
41:52for using the FW yeah well now you can
41:54see that I mean it's happening right now
41:56it's turning on them right now now you
41:57can see the left eating itself right and
41:59as someone on the left I probably
42:01shouldn't be taking that much joy in it
42:03but because it's been so warped I
42:05actually am I I want you know as we've
42:07been calling them the regressives I want
42:08them to I want them to go the way of the
42:10dinosaur enough of this enough of this I
42:13know and we bring back just uh an
42:16environment of openness and with jokes
42:19yeah there shall be jokes I was about to
42:21say let's move away from some of the
42:22serious stuff but now I'm going to bring
42:23up gamergate so I don't know which way
42:24is this serious or jokey we'll find out
42:27tragic comedy okay so actually I I
42:29remember very much the first time I
42:31heard of you was about a year ago or so
42:33when gamergate was just starting to
42:35percolate up and I tweeted out I said I
42:37want to do something about gamergate can
42:39you guys point me in the right direction
42:41because I really could not get a hold of
42:43it which it seems like no one still can
42:45get a hold of it no one can explain but
42:46but your name came up and Milo
42:47yannopoulos and Adam Baldwin and a
42:49couple other people popped up and I was
42:50looking around and I did one video on it
42:54and I basically said I I tried to lay it
42:56out but I basically said I don't know
42:57what's going on here right now since
42:59then I've had Milo on and I thought he
43:00did a pretty good explanation you've
43:02become sort of a I guess like a heroine
43:06of the gamergate movement um for a lot
43:08of the reasons you're discussing here so
43:10if you were going to explain it in like
43:11two minutes how would you explain the
43:15the thing that is gamergame well just
43:18the first thing to know I am not a gamer
43:20yeah and in fact I've looked at some of
43:21the games that are and they you know
43:23they there's too much violence and uh
43:25Mayhem and it's I mean but I also don't
43:28like shows like Breaking Bad or I can't
43:30watch them too much violence but you
43:32believe they should exist if course it's
43:34not my taste I do prefer you know Pride
43:36and Prejudice or you know the latest PBS
43:39uh um down Abby that sort of thing uh
43:44but it's not I don't impose that on
43:45everyone and I recognize there can be
43:47great movies Alfred hcock was a great
43:50director but I will never see psycho I'm
43:51too afraid it's not my I can't I don't
43:53enjoy that experience of being terrified
43:56in the theater right people do they and
43:58it's there's it's harmless and so when
44:01the video game controversy erupted I I
44:05took uh I took a measure of it and I I
44:07saw some familiar players because I'd
44:10been in some of these same battles and I
44:12saw that um some of the feminist critics
44:16were cherry-picking they were
44:19misrepresenting and uh and that the G
44:22gamergate was being judged by there are
44:25some extreme people associated with it
44:27at the periphery but the media but like
44:30every what movement I mean Occupy Wall
44:33Street there were crazy people on the
44:35periphery sure and and black lives
44:37matter you go to the periphery but you
44:39what you should do is go to the center
44:40and what are they saying that's what I
44:42Tred to do is go and see what they were
44:44saying yeah and uh these these critics
44:47first you had critics that said video
44:49games are causing mayam they create
44:51violence no one has been able to show
44:53that and psychologists are already just
44:55tired of it they not need forget it
44:57you're not there's it's just going in a
44:59circle no one has been able to show that
45:01yeah and hasn't there been some studies
45:02that have proven it actually does the
45:03reverse because people get some of their
45:05aggression out yeah instead of actually
45:07shooting someone and it takes a lot I
45:10mean no one knows what creates a you
45:13know a sociopathic criminal but it's
45:15probably not video games yeah and but
45:18and in previous generations they thought
45:19it was comic books who had a corrupting
45:21influence on the morals of the young or
45:23it was television and any new medium
45:25goes through this and game seem to be
45:27there and then there was the feminist
45:29critics and they were saying that it was
45:32causing that well they were saying two
45:34things the games themselves are sexist
45:36and they they create uh attitudes of you
45:40know sexism and I I just to not see
45:43evidence of that I did see that some of
45:45them had sexy women and um but if the
45:49players like it and many of them you
45:51know men are known to like images of
45:54sexy women I just didn't understand why
45:55we were demonizing that
45:57and uh people say well feminists will
45:59say that that the male gays looking at
46:02women's bodies objectifying which
46:04feminist I was a part of of a group of
46:07pro-ex feminists or libertarian
46:09feminists who it was Live and Let Live I
46:11mean I I'm not against people there was
46:15a whole group of feminists that were
46:16against having you know women posing in
46:19Playboy or or the Sports
46:22Illustrated Swimsuit Issue and all of
46:24that Katherine McKinnon Andrea dwen but
46:27there was a whole group of us that were
46:28opposed and I think we won the argument
46:31but apparently they won the assistant
46:33professorships they've been there ever
46:35since teaching these you might have won
46:38the battle they might have won the war
46:40if they were teaching this w we won all
46:41the battles when they were the first
46:43so-called culture War we won the
46:44arguments we had the New York Times on
46:46our side we had new you know the media
46:49and uh now they've been they've been
46:52laboring away you know with their
46:54theories and they know Relentless and
46:55now they have the backing of the
46:57Department of Education because through
46:58so in the educational system they can
47:01make a federal case of everything so
47:03it's difficult I don't I think in the
47:05end we will prevail because I have great
47:06faith in just human ability to see
47:10through nonsense eventually it has to
47:13fall right so my question there was what
47:16is gamergate and I think your answer
47:19because your answer had almost nothing
47:20to do with gamergate I think it was the
47:21right answer right because that seems to
47:22be the confusion about what is gamergate
47:25nobody seems to really understand what
47:28it is at at this point it's morphed into
47:30so many different so many different
47:31things but at the core it was a group of
47:34Gamers who were there were issues I
47:36don't understand as not a gamer they
47:38were irritated by some cronyism in the
47:41right some the magazine were being paid
47:43off by the manufacturers all that was
47:45going on and that that happened we we
47:46saw that in radio when it was a younger
47:48medium there was Peola and all has to be
47:51sorted out I think gaming had to go
47:52through that maybe it still has to but
47:54it's it's improved since gamergate that
47:56for sure but then they also would find
48:00themselves in you know getting attacked
48:02by game critics or games evaluated
48:05because they objectified women or
48:07something and and they were just
48:09thinking we just want to play our games
48:10and you know we don't really yeah so
48:13whatever and and then they had these
48:15critiques of the games that were so
48:17cherry-picked and these Gamers they know
48:20their games don't mess with that and
48:22they know the games and then so they
48:24were this is of course Anita sarkeesian
48:28in her videos it was infuriating to
48:30these are some young guys mainly and
48:32some girls and they see their games
48:34being misrepresented or she'll pick a
48:36scene out make it look like one thing
48:38was totally different or take a video no
48:40one ever watched that had you know a
48:43following of five and and act as though
48:45it's typical of the game so they knew it
48:47was cheating they knew and they got
48:49really mad now what I liked about many
48:52of them is they they fought back with
48:54arguments they made videos they were it
48:56was was this explosion of communication
48:59now there were crazy opportunists at the
49:02edges or maybe they weren't even part of
49:04gamergate maybe no one knows who sent
49:06threats right and people on both sides
49:09of the controversy get them yeah so
49:11that's the interesting part that there
49:13was this group of it's younger people
49:15playing video games they felt that the
49:17system that they you know they love
49:19these games they felt that the man you
49:20know the video game manufacturers
49:22they're buying the reviews and all that
49:24it starts with that but I think you just
49:26hit it that it became this thing where
49:28suddenly this group of people who have
49:30nothing in common we they don't know
49:32what each other's skin color is or
49:34sexuality is or any of this stuff is but
49:36they all found this common thing related
49:39to
49:39authoritarianism and they fought it and
49:42that's why I was fascinated with and
49:43they fought and they fought and they
49:45they you know it just for it's it may
49:48erupt again it it goes it comes and goes
49:50but uh there was comaraderie and two two
49:54times maybe yeah two times we've had
49:55these gamergate hookups where because
49:57you only know each it's just a hashtag
49:58it's not an organization and in in both
50:01DC and in um in London we had a meet up
50:05and I met the gamers that and they were
50:07there you you can't meet a more
50:09delightful friendly group of people so
50:12that should that be the piece that gives
50:13you the hope that you were alluding to a
50:15second ago that there was this group of
50:17younger people that said we're not going
50:19to take this and if they're not
50:21going to take it and they were they were
50:23you know there were it was majority guys
50:26but lots fantastic young women and again
50:28these are it's hardcore Gamers I don't
50:31know maybe 70 or 80% male but there's
50:34some f the girls that are there are
50:35fantastic and they're part of that group
50:37so they even whatever they were they
50:39could there are gay women and and and
50:43every race I mean is is represented and
50:47you realize gamergate was a consumer
50:49Uprising really from across the world
50:51across racial and class and gender lines
50:54and it was just defending aob they love
50:57right so that's sort of what it is is
50:59that that's why the regressive left
51:00really hated the idea of this right and
51:03they wanted to the idea that there would
51:05be a rebellion how dare you you do not
51:08talk back to big sister right which is
51:10so fascinating because because it was a
51:12cross-section of people they couldn't
51:14figure out who to guilt into hating who
51:16more and that I think transcends so many
51:19things that we now see on college
51:20campuses and we see in our public
51:22discourse and free speech and all that
51:24um for you personally how does it feel
51:25as you just said you you were never a
51:27gamer but but yet you're based mom for
51:30these people how how does it feel to be
51:32part of something that you actually
51:34unlike feminism where you had a vested
51:36interest as a woman let's say now you're
51:39part of something that you I don't want
51:41to say you don't care about it because
51:42you care about these people obviously
51:44but as you said you're not a gamer but
51:45you're you're a leader in this
51:47thing it's happened before I once came
51:50to the defense of wrestlers because they
51:51were you know their sport has been
51:54demolished by complet completely
51:57unnecessary interpretations of this
51:59title line Equity law and so I made
52:01friends with a lot of wrestlers I've
52:04never wrestled and I've never even I've
52:05never even seen it I don't think except
52:07you know accidentally channel surfing
52:09right um but I love these these are just
52:12great guys and they they were and they
52:14couldn't you know they they didn't have
52:16a voice in in this debate and these you
52:20know gender uh experts speak for as if
52:25they're speaking for all women or all of
52:27the left or something they speak for
52:29themselves people should know that yeah
52:31so how did it feel uh it it's fine it's
52:34I mean because just because everyone
52:35seems great and I I just I mean there as
52:38I said I haven't I can't think of a
52:40group of people that were just more
52:42diverse more welcoming good sense of
52:44humor and creative I think you know if I
52:47were to based on my knowledge of Gamers
52:49over the last year or so if someone's
52:52like obsessively gaming it's predictive
52:55of being an arti or an engineer they're
52:58smart too it's hard to play these games
53:00yeah I mean we've got the the Army and
53:02the Navy now playing video games to
53:04learn how to actually do things so it's
53:06not that these you know I was used to I
53:07was running around as Mario eating
53:09mushrooms I don't know how much that did
53:11for me but I ate some mushrooms in
53:13college but uh what about online
53:15harassment because that is also a piece
53:17of this and it also fits the the
53:19feminism thing um how much of it is I
53:23don't want to say how much of it is real
53:24there's obviously plenty of it's real
53:25and we can look on any YouTube comment
53:27section and there there's everybody
53:29harassing everybody for every other
53:31reason there is right it's endless how
53:34much concern should we actually have for
53:37this or is it something that is not that
53:39important because it's just words in the
53:41digital yeah we should have concern for
53:43a let's just a a certain category of
53:46harassment first of all we have to make
53:49distinctions if you're
53:50online and you know there are different
53:53people can disagree with you that could
53:54upset you but you know you know live
53:57with yeah and people can insult you
54:00that's life just unfollow them then
54:03people can be obscene and you know like
54:06and it's probably more upsetting to a
54:08woman than a man that kind of like
54:09sexual and then they can issue like
54:11really scary threats right now obviously
54:14with the really scary threats and
54:15probably it's the obscenity uh well
54:17let's start with the the threats there
54:19you have to we have to do something
54:21about that and I think we are I mean I
54:24think they get reported and and when if
54:27they're credible but the thing is with
54:29gamergate like has anybody been hurt is
54:32there any evidence of it's it's just all
54:35internet nonsense I mean these that
54:38there are these threatening males and
54:40making I mean where are they I mean
54:42where who has been hurt exactly I mean
54:44the worst thing I one of the worst
54:46things I read about was Milo getting
54:48terrible things in the mail right Milo
54:50yannopoulos there were bomb threats
54:52weren't there bomb threats called
54:53something that he that he did yes when
54:55we did our
54:57gamer Meetup where we met the gamers in
54:59Washington
55:00DC a Critic of gamergate sent first of
55:03all he sent completely rambling
55:06frightening notes to the bar owner
55:08telling him not to host us and it was
55:10very touching because his bar owner was
55:12talking to me he was worried and he
55:14thought what he because this critic made
55:16it sound like like he was hosting some
55:19you know I don't know some Nazis or
55:22something and the the bar owner said
55:25what can I do this is is America he was
55:28he was from Afghanistan I think or an IM
55:31immigrant right or maybe Iraq he said
55:33what can I do this is America and he I
55:35said are you going to keep us out he
55:36said no and then I they were so pleased
55:39because and everybody was very generous
55:41because we felt bad that they got a bomb
55:43threat and the the imagine making a bomb
55:46threat in DC they brought in Vans and
55:48police dogs but of course being Gamers
55:50we just went outside they partied
55:52outside yeah all right so it had a it
55:54had a nice ending and I suppose that's
55:56that we can do is just you just keep
55:58going and you just keep telling the
56:00truth and all that which sort of gets me
56:01to my last question which is I've been
56:03trying to end all these interviews on
56:05the Hope part of all of this where do we
56:07go from here with all the things we've
56:09been talking about and uh I think you
56:11were in a piece that I that Milo was
56:13also in about the rise of the cultural
56:15Libertarians that there is this group of
56:18people now that cut across the political
56:20spectrum that include Bill Maher and
56:23Chris Rock and people on the right like
56:26Milo and people on the left that have
56:29realized we got to get out of people's
56:31personal lives we got to stop othering
56:33everybody we got to stop judging
56:35everybody based on color and sex and
56:37religion and all that I'm a firm
56:39believer that this is the next political
56:43movement in this country it has to so I
56:45guess are you with me and give me
56:47something else totally with you and I
56:50think that it was my acquaintance with
56:51the gamers that gave me that hope
56:53because politically they're all over the
56:55Spectrum I but they very libertarian for
56:57sure yeah and this was their how they
56:59were acting and I just thought that I
57:01got some insight into how they were into
57:04because they're younger I mean the
57:06gamers are a lot a lot younger than me
57:08most of them and U that gives me hope
57:11and and I what I like about it too is it
57:13can unite us uh from people who were
57:16conser I'm still a registered Democrat
57:17but out of respect for my mother and
57:19father who are so liberal I wouldn't
57:22dare register anything else but um they
57:26but you can be conservative you can be
57:28liberal what unites us As Americans and
57:31maybe is is a yeah in westerners too is
57:36a love of Freedom yeah I mean that's our
57:40so I think it can bring people together
57:42and we've right now it's not it's it's
57:46sort of the bullies have the upper hand
57:48yeah and so it's going to be a battle to
57:51um take the power away from them and
57:53give to where it belongs to people who
57:55just who are nice respectful and and who
57:59want of other people and and realize
58:01other people have different opinions and
58:03and that that's okay and not to be
58:06policing I don't want these
58:08authoritarians here who said they could
58:10make the rules your Arguments for
58:12censorship and and and doing away with
58:15due process they're not going to work
58:16they've been tried before with with
58:19unhappy results so read some history but
58:21having said that I do think and any
58:24crazy things happening on campus right
58:26now it's maybe a good thing that people
58:29are seeing it and will not be so easy so
58:32ready to jump on board that I to me
58:35that's the hope that I've been trying to
58:36take for the last few weeks that even
58:38even in cable news which is so endlessly
58:40dumb and and pandering that I was
58:42noticing people were starting to say you
58:45know where they'll cry racism every two
58:47seconds and sexism and homophobia for
58:48the first time they were kind of coming
58:50around and being like this might be a
58:52bit much so that's got to be that that's
58:55a good sign yeah that's a good sign
58:57that's a good sign what what would you
58:58say just the average person that that
59:00not someone that's in the public sphere
59:01but the average person that wants to do
59:04something about this in their in their
59:07well I would suggest that you be
59:09somewhat skeptical not get too carried
59:12away with a cause until you check the
59:14facts now if you've got good information
59:16and moral energy that's moral progress
59:20that's Martin Luther King that's civil
59:22rights if you have bad information and
59:24moral fervor that's f iism and history
59:27is one long lesson in the dangers of
59:29combining misinformation and moral
59:31fervor so be careful choose your ca
59:33causes carefully and um if you're if you
59:37do that I think it'll you know that that
59:40leads to progress yeah to being careful
59:42about your causes and right now if you
59:44are a woman and you are part of Campus
59:45feminism I hate to say this you have ch
59:48chosen the wrong cause that's not about
59:50Liberty it's about repression well you
59:52know what I look forward to seeing some
59:54of the comments on this one we'll see if
59:56they agree with you and if they agree
59:57great and I have a feeling if they
59:58disagree you'll be okay with that too
1:00:00I'm okay with that give me the evidence
1:00:02I'm persuadable there you go well it was
1:00:04a pleasure meeting you finally in in
1:00:05actual life in real life we've been
1:00:07doing this friends on Twitter yeah we've
1:00:09doing the 140 character thing and I
1:00:10really appreciate the fact that you
1:00:12literally went from almost four hours
1:00:14with Joe right over here and what are
1:00:16you gonna do for the rest of the day H
1:00:18I'm meeting my nephew and we're going
1:00:20out for Margarita's Mexican food
1:00:23excellent all right well you guys can
1:00:25check out Christina summers in all the
1:00:27usual spots on Twitter on YouTube it is
1:00:29the factual feminist and uh I thank you
1:00:33again and I look forward to seeing you
1:00:34guys next
1:00:40week

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