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Fear No Evil With Natan Sharansky — Transcript

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0:00this year marks the 100th anniversary of
0:03the Russian Revolution and the 26th year
0:05since the Soviet Union ceased to exist
0:09does the long Communist experiment in
0:12Russia still matter with us today natan
0:15Sharansky who spent nine years in Soviet
0:18prisons yes mister Sharansky says it
0:22still matters natan Sharansky on
0:25uncommon knowledge now
0:37welcome to uncommon knowledge I'm Peter
0:39Robinson born to a Jewish family in the
0:42Soviet Union in 1948
0:43natan Sharansky became a chess prodigy
0:46then studied at the Moscow Institute of
0:48Physics and Technology roughly speaking
0:50the Soviet equivalent of our own MIT
0:53although his training placed him in the
0:55comfortable ranks of the upper levels of
0:58Soviet society he requested an exit visa
1:01to Israel a request the Soviets denied
1:04and then became a human rights activist
1:06serving as a spokesman for the Moscow
1:09Helsinki group arrested on charges of
1:12treason in 1977 Mr Sharansky spent nine
1:15years in Soviet prisons after President
1:19Reagan and others pressured the Soviets
1:21to release mr. Sharansky in 1986 he was
1:24finally permitted to emigrate to Israel
1:26since then mr. Sharansky has become a
1:29senior figure in Israeli politics
1:31natan Sharansky welcome thank you for
1:34that in just a moment well we'll turn to
1:36your classic memoir fear no evil but
1:40first if I made this as I said this is
1:42100 years since the Russian Revolution
1:45and I was googling around on the
1:47internet and I found that there's a
1:49t-shirt that's especially popular so is
1:55it good news that communism has been so
1:58completely forgotten the kids feel free
2:00to wear t-shirts about Karl Marx or is
2:04that bad news in some way well it's both
2:09it's good news that I feel like we
2:13indicated four against all those
2:18ideologists of my interrogators who
2:22lived with this feeling that they are
2:25creating Empire for the next thousand
2:27years and so to think that now nobody
2:31even remembers that there was such a
2:32fire it's good to know on the other hand
2:35the idea which was at the base of this
2:40awful experiment which was called
2:42communism the idea that know that there
2:47will be equality and
2:49happiness in this world you have to
2:52erase identities to raise religion to
2:55make everybody equal by taking their
2:57property from them and then we the state
3:00of the society we will share it equally
3:03let everybody will be of the same
3:05opinions or the same passion that are
3:08non passion alleged to history to
3:11nationality to religion it's coming back
3:14oh this post-modernism you know the
3:18moment coroners whether to Christ are
3:22dying as their idea post-modernism was
3:25born some of the leaders were Marxists
3:29who young members of Communist Party of
3:31Britain or France some others but it's
3:34finished
3:35no but again I will now defend communism
3:37after millions of people were killed for
3:39the in the name of this idea and now
3:42it's carving in the new form so it's
3:45very important to remember what it meant
3:49ideologically and how far it could go
3:52into killing tens of millions of the
3:54people for the sake of the city yes well
3:56let's spend a moment or two talking
3:57about what life in the Soviet Union was
3:59like from your memoir fear no evil I was
4:03only five when Stalin died but the
4:05memory of that day in 1953 is still
4:07clear in my mind this was when I first
4:10learned that in order to survive in
4:13Soviet society you had to function on
4:15two levels at once
4:17explain that okay that's a very
4:20important point for understanding any
4:24dictatorship I got it as a practical
4:29knowledge in the age of five I come at
4:32home Stalin died my father makes sure
4:36that the neighbors don't hear us because
4:39we lived like three five families in one
4:42apartment and explains me that we as
4:46Jews should be very happy he died it was
4:49awful man he killed a lot of people with
4:52Jews were now in big danger but now
4:55because he died probably we are saved he
4:58said he didn't say probably he didn't
5:00want to frighten me too much he said
5:01because
5:03remember miracle happened he didn't say
5:05that that sport that's great yeah yeah
5:08Jewish celebration but he did say that
5:12miracle happened Stalin died but he said
5:15don't tell it to anyone do what
5:17everybody does and next day I go to
5:20kindergarten and they cry together with
5:22all the children about death of the son
5:25of all the people Stalin and we sing
5:29songs how grateful we are to Stalin for
5:32the childhood which he gave us so he
5:35sing songs how we are grateful to Stalin
5:38I'd cry together with all the children
5:40and I remember I should I should be very
5:45happy that Stalin died that's typical
5:47State of Mind of loyal Soviet citizen
5:50who knows that there is that he has to
5:54do what he is told to do he has to vote
5:56the way he is told he can read the books
5:59which are permitted to read he can
6:01express the ideas which are approved but
6:04it's all false the real world is only
6:07for you your close family your closest
6:10friends and it's situation of
6:13double-sink it's typical situation of
6:16majority of citizens and the
6:18dictatorship and the longer the tension
6:20exists the more people are not true
6:23believers their double sinkers and
6:25because the world doesn't understand it
6:28the world looks at these dictatorships
6:30and think oh they're so strong they're
6:33so threatening can you also also in fear
6:36no evil you write about your father
6:39Papa was born in Odessa in 1904 which
6:42made him 13 at the time of the
6:44Revolution 13 a hundred years ago when
6:47the revolution took place like most of
6:49his generation Papa had believed that
6:50the revolution would solve the Jewish
6:53problem and that the destiny of the Jews
6:55was to work together with other peoples
6:57to create and earthly paradise
6:59well we're spending we're devoting this
7:03to what went wrong but first what did
7:07they believe if you if I asked you to
7:10make the best argument you could for
7:13communism 100 years ago what
7:16is it that your father thought he saw
7:18I'll tell you exactly we are this week
7:21we are celebrating 100 years to
7:25Bolshevik Revolution right it's also the
7:28same over the same time 100 years 150
7:32creation was the Declaration that's the
7:34first political scientists document
7:36recognizing Jewish comment so there were
7:40many many Jewish families which were
7:43real split including the family of my
7:45father 1 sons as finally we can build
7:49our own state as I says but why do we
7:52need it now with it finally we can be
7:55part of the bigger world we don't have
7:57to be the people of one small state oh
8:00one small nation we can now vote for the
8:06equality and happiness of all the
8:10peoples involved and those who really
8:14believed that is the right way
8:16they helped directly and indirectly to
8:19create one of the most awful regimes in
8:21the world but if there was a moment when
8:24intelligent people of goodwill could say
8:26yes this revolution looks hopeful well I
8:30would say that the very first weeks ago
8:36there was a majority of people didn't
8:39know what it really means they only cut
8:42these slogans then very quickly very
8:45quickly those who wanted to understand
8:47they already in a couple of years they
8:49could understand that there will be no
8:51law there were no value of human life
8:55and so on those who wanted to continue
8:57deceiving themselves continued for 10 15
9:0020 years until this ideology killed them
9:02themselves and and the most sensing that
9:07so many intellectuals in the West the
9:10free world like in 1937 the moment of
9:15the highest level of killing red
9:22terrorism comes one of the intellectual
9:27leaders of Europe
9:29was Leon faced one go to Moscow
9:33Stalin takes him though permits him to
9:36go to open trials and he writes from
9:40there that while we the capitalism as so
9:44or preoccupied to to to compete with one
9:49another to exploit one another to make
9:52unhappy one another here this everybody
9:55here's full of happiness even those
9:58people who are on the trial they're also
10:00part of this ideology so you must be
10:03really crazy one who think there are so
10:05many people in the West who wanted to
10:08convince themselves that the idea is so
10:10good that even if you have to kill some
10:14evil even though bill Lane wrote 1918
10:18she wrote even it will have to kill few
10:21hundred capitals for the sake of this
10:23great idea of happiness for everybody
10:26historical doesn't matter anything then
10:29they killed tens of millions again fear
10:32no evil in 1973 I joined the Ilia
10:36movement of Jews who were struggling for
10:37their right to emigrate to Israel at the
10:40age of 25 I finally learned what a joy
10:44it was to be free you were still in the
10:47Soviet Union what do you mean at that
10:48you felt free well people under the
10:54Teletoon regime but they already don't
10:57believe in this official Yoji when they
10:59are not true believers and majority of
11:00people and then don't believe so they
11:03are double thinkers they have to live
11:05under the permanent self control what
11:08they can say what they can do to
11:12remember with whom they are talking if
11:13he's in form of KGB or not and it's very
11:17depressing people I used to it they
11:19don't understand what kind of
11:21intellectual prison they live in when
11:24you finally has enough courage or energy
11:32or desire to start saying things that
11:35you really believe in suddenly you know
11:38of course physically your life changed
11:41the mortage said publicly that
11:43I don't want to live in this country I
11:44want to leave this country want to go to
11:46Israel you are losing your job your part
11:51will be searched we code for
11:53interrogations to KGB so some of your
11:56friends will ask to take their
11:57telephones from your notebook you know
12:00that they will not be called to KGB but
12:03you are not controlling your thoughts
12:06anymore you're saying and doing things
12:09that you really believe in
12:10that's real freedom so I was really
12:13lucky to discover in the age of 25 my
12:17identity and my freedom and they were
12:20both very closely connected mmm again
12:23fear no evil shortly after 6 o'clock on
12:27the evening of March 15 1977 I was
12:30abducted by the KGB outside an apartment
12:32on Gorky Street in downtown Moscow I
12:35spent the next nine years in prison and
12:38labor camp including more than 400 days
12:41in punishment cells and more than 200
12:44days on hunger strikes and during your
12:48first few days in prison you're right I
12:51repeated a principle over and over until
12:54it was part of me nothing they do can
12:57humiliate me only I can humiliate myself
13:02what did you mean well as just now I
13:06said that I discovered that freedom is
13:10inner feeling it's not whether you you
13:13are luxurious hotel oh you're a small
13:17prison or you are free to to do things
13:22you believe in and to say things that
13:23you think oh you're not free to do so
13:27freedom is belongs only to you and you
13:31can betrayed and then you will feel
13:35emulated by betrayal of your own freedom
13:40well later when I became more religious
13:43I would save by betraying the image of
13:46God in which the people are created but
13:50of course KGB repressive regime thinks
13:54that they can just
13:57you wake humiliating that the moment you
14:00feel yourself human later you lose
14:02self-respect then it's much easier for
14:05them to break you during interrogations
14:09and they have many ways to humiliate you
14:16external so if you don't protect
14:18yourself right same from the very
14:20beginning whatever they do it has
14:23nothing to do with you with your honor
14:25with your independence with your freedom
14:29it's only your's freedom is yours you
14:32know their self-respect is yours yeah
14:35your opportunities to influence the
14:38world
14:39it's all depends on you not on them
14:41that's how I built my defense hmm
14:45you were interrogated 110 times again
14:49I'm quoting from fear no evil where they
14:51had once used force the KGB now
14:54preferred to engage him in long
14:55conversations trying to manipulate you
14:57with explanations threats promises hints
14:59and more threats close quote and you
15:03mentioned a moment ago that at an
15:04earlier stage there were true believers
15:07but by the time we're in the Brezhnev
15:10era by the time you're in prison
15:11it's doublethink what this is I I think
15:19for even Americans who try very hard to
15:21understand the history of the Soviet
15:23Union how did that transition from true
15:27believers to Stalin and the bullets in
15:32the back of the head to this world in
15:35which you get the eyewitness accounts
15:38yours among others people didn't believe
15:40anymore but they were somehow stuck in
15:43this system of double think double
15:46belief and instead of shooting prisoners
15:49now we're engaging in these long
15:51horrifying interrogations what was the
15:56point of it all and how did it
15:58perpetuate itself if people had ceased
16:02really believing in it but well there
16:06are many people who who didn't believe
16:09but lived under
16:11fear so the fear is the system controls
16:14people through fear and it's not that
16:17sort of fear that you'll be sentenced to
16:19death it can be fear that you lose your
16:21yoke that you will not be promoted that
16:24you want to be the head of clinics but
16:28you can will on the doctor if you will
16:31dare to speak publicly what you think so
16:33all types of fears through which the
16:36system controls the lives of the people
16:38now when you are asking about
16:39interrogators I think majority of them
16:43also didn't believe in anything that I
16:45did was very cynical they it was good
16:48for them the system gave them
16:51opportunity of comfortable life and they
16:54will always exist say to their own
16:57consciousness that historical then
17:00probably it's the right thing to do and
17:02they tried not to think too much because
17:04the moment they start going to the
17:07details it's very difficult for them to
17:10deliver they don't think too much in
17:14early 1980 you write they have last
17:17question about the gulag your time in
17:18prison the official in charge of storing
17:21prisoners belongings for some reason
17:23returned to you your small copy of the
17:28Psalms in Hebrew you had been using the
17:30Psalms to learn Hebrew and you write if
17:33you're no evil the words lifted me above
17:36the mundane and directed me toward the
17:38eternal I especially liked Psalm 23
17:41though I walk through the valley of the
17:43shadow of death I will fear no evil for
17:45thou art with me how did you understand
17:50you became a religious man but you
17:54started not particularly how why did
17:57those words move you it feels almost
17:59invisible before he had an analysis of
18:02them I have to say it was it was modern
18:04mightier than you just now said few days
18:08before my arrest I received the small
18:11sound look from the tourists from my
18:13wife and my wife was already for to you
18:15yes in Israel we hoped that we'll be
18:21together a few months after she leave
18:24and she left as
18:25after our marriage and we met 12 years
18:27after but so she sent me this wrong book
18:31and she writes a note which a tourist
18:34brought me that it was with me for the
18:38last year and actually feeling that the
18:40time has come to send this book to you
18:42I opened a small book if you didn't get
18:47special education how to read ancient
18:50Hebrew text you will not even understand
18:53where the end of the phrase at the
18:54beginning because the signs are
18:57different and most of the body don't
19:00know I knew Hebrew demonstration
19:03protests if visa
19:06basic Hebrew which means so I put it
19:10aside they decided okay I don't come
19:12down time it's very nice very tired good
19:14that you did it but it was just moments
19:18where some of my colleagues I was
19:20agonizing many press conferences for
19:22Jewish moment for Human Rights would few
19:25days after this I was arrested and when
19:27they bring me the list was they
19:28confiscated there is this small black
19:31book not in Russian that wasn't it
19:35and I understand that it's about I start
19:37demanding who they'll give it to me for
19:39three years I was they gave it to me
19:44together with the telegram that my
19:47father passed away
19:48so those three years after ever prison
19:50so what can I do I can't be with my
19:54mother cannot be with my family
19:55I said I'll read Psalms until understand
19:59what it is about so I started reading
20:01this book and how I can understand even
20:05though where is the end at the beginning
20:07of the phrase so I was a mathematician
20:10so I did simply started using logic
20:13comparing the rod which in different
20:16sentences that comparing it with others
20:18and so happens so from this ocean of
20:24words the first phrase which I
20:27understood fully oh here is the
20:29beginning of the end and here are
20:30thirteen short what I'm killing but take
20:33a look it's about a rocket I McGee and
20:37when I go through the valley of death
20:39Alvia no and sudden it's Johnson so who
20:43brought it to me my wife King David God
20:48Israel all of them together came to
20:50prison to say be no GN he will be with
20:54you and so that was very powerful
20:56message and then I was lying in the snow
21:07and I refused to move until they gave it
21:09to me when they were two when the
21:12airplane was waiting to take me to the
21:14girl in prison you were finally released
21:21in 1986 you flew to Israel but not long
21:25afterwards you paid a visit to President
21:28Reagan and we speechwriters I was a
21:31speechwriter on the Reagan's speech
21:33writing staff at the time we were told
21:35that you told the president that his
21:38speeches met a great deal to you in
21:40prison that somehow or other brief
21:43excerpts of his speeches made it into
21:46prison and he would pass them from
21:47prisoner to prisoner and little strips
21:48of papers that correct I have to
21:50disappoint you
21:51we didn't have the opportunity to read
21:53the speeches but if you are not in a
21:56punishing cell you can read Soviet
21:58newspaper problem and he was you see
22:01suddenly improv there is an angry
22:04article that the President of the United
22:06States called Soviet Union he will
22:09Empire that's unprecedented
22:11that's against all the norms all the
22:14deterrent and how he did and what they
22:17whatever oh they're all very angry words
22:20and he was so excited the way I told
22:26them later the president that was the
22:28best day for us in prison I can explain
22:31why because we dissidents you felt
22:35always wrote about it how big the system
22:38is because of this double thing how it
22:41is fallen trauma from inside and the
22:45only thing which helps it to survive is
22:47the fact that the world is scared and
22:50prefers to cooperate with them and
22:52problem in order not to to to challenge
22:57them and so if only the world will
23:00understand the real nature of this
23:02regime and how big this regime then days
23:06will be counted that was our series here
23:09finally comes the leader of United
23:11States of America and informs the world
23:14a dozen prison that's evil empire and it
23:19has no hope for the future because it
23:21deprives people freedom what can be
23:24better so yeah I remember how I read
23:29this become very excited that I realized
23:31that don't say there's one of our
23:35friends is that this moment is punishing
23:36someone function so we don't so instead
23:42sending him immediately by Morris that's
23:44how we spoke by Morris that American
23:47president called Soviet Union he will
23:49Empire and he's rah finally so it was
23:54for us that finally God starts
23:56understanding some very basic things so
23:58that was it does for 30 years I've been
24:01wanting to ask you this so I'd like to
24:04play a couple of clips of Reagan
24:07speeches and you tell us if if if he and
24:10his speech writers got it right
24:12June 8th 1980 to President Reagan speaks
24:16to the British Parliament but I believe
24:18we live now at a turning point in an
24:22ironic sense Karl Marx was right we are
24:25witnessing today a great revolutionary
24:28crisis a crisis where the demands of the
24:31economic order are conflicting directly
24:34with those of the political order but
24:37the crisis is happening not in the free
24:41non-marxist West but in the home of
24:44Marxist of Lenin ISM the Soviet Union so
24:49here's the kind of criticism the
24:52President Reagan received Arthur
24:54Schlessinger jr. the famous historian
24:55quote those in the US who think the
24:57Soviet Union is on the verge of economic
24:59and social collapse are only kidding
25:02themselves who was right well
25:05I listen they I'm laughing why I'm
25:10laughing because this is it's in prison
25:14they're saying exactly these exactly and
25:18I remember remember my cellmate who was
25:24serious economist but then he tried to
25:26escape the Western so he was arrested he
25:29all information which he has the Soviet
25:32newspaper Pravda he every day counts
25:35until understand the country was a
25:39building the railroad and they report
25:41that it exists doesn't exist the paper I
25:43counted the production of coal and this
25:46of this is lower than ten years ago
25:48they'd gone down so here simply compares
25:52different figures which he read at the
25:54same time the so-called psychologist I
25:58believing in all the nonsense which
26:00Soviet Union rights that twenty years
26:03will be communist we will be bigger than
26:08the United States and the economy in
26:09seven years of this all this nonsense
26:12and even I think a few years before so
26:15it will fell apart they were still
26:17leading so meteorologists were
26:18explaining the Soviet Union strong it's
26:20forever for this is simply because they
26:24they knew how vehicles from inside so
26:27when they look professional all the
26:29things they feel see the different world
26:31so here the president of United States
26:34of America is saying the same what my
26:37prison cell said so my prison cell or
26:42bageno could be heard only by me he
26:45couldn't be heard by all the world by
26:46the world didn't believe him but sex God
26:50that they were people like in the
26:51Margaret a to go that's right
26:53one more clip here so in your
26:56discussions of the nuclear freeze
26:58proposals I urge you to beware the
26:59temptation of pride the temptation of
27:02blithely declaring yourselves above it
27:06all and label both sides equally at
27:08fault to ignore the facts of history and
27:11the aggressive impulses of an evil
27:13empire
27:13to simply call the arms race a giant
27:15misunderstanding and thereby remove
27:18yourself from the struggle between right
27:20and wrong and good and evil evil empire
27:24he was denounced everywhere yeah but
27:27it's very important that he leveled of
27:32principle that we have to understand
27:33that in principle agreements between
27:39democracy and between dictatorships are
27:41different things because democracy you
27:45can rely on the fact that the government
27:48has to satisfy these people in the evil
27:51empire
27:54the God does depend on the people people
27:57depend on the government so the gun has
28:00to my must have an external enemy and
28:04parental to mobilize their people to
28:06fight so any agreement will not make
28:11them more peaceful to you any agreement
28:14has to be controlled controlled by your
28:17power and the fact that President Reagan
28:21and his representatives on the
28:22negotiations with Soviet Union made
28:26direct linkage we cannot trust you
28:28because you keep people in prison and
28:30because of this we cannot go so friends
28:33over now the servant of agreement there
28:36were many people saying what how can
28:38connect disarmament with the people in
28:41prison but it was really understood that
28:45the real power of this system is defined
28:48by the fact how they control the people
28:51the more they make the decisions out of
28:54prison they don't control their people
28:56and then they become big one last reagan
28:59clip that i'd like to ask you to comment
29:01on and bear in mind that the state
29:05department and the national security
29:06council both wanted the passage that
29:08you're about to see deleted from the
29:11speech we welcome change and openness
29:15for we believe that freedom and security
29:18go together
29:21the advance of human Liberty the advance
29:25of human Liberty can only strengthen the
29:28cause of world peace there is one sign
29:32that the Soviets can make that would be
29:34unmistakable that would advance
29:37dramatically dramatically the cause of
29:40freedom and peace general secretary
29:43Gorbachev if you seek peace if you seek
29:48prosperity for the Soviet Union and
29:50Eastern Europe if you seek
29:52liberalization come here to this gate
29:57mr. Gorbachev open this gate
30:04[Applause]
30:12great speech
30:14okay after this applause mr. Gorbachev
30:27tear down this wall so too provocative
30:32look over the top two things no great
30:36speech
30:37great but you say that State Department
30:41was against things first of all when I
30:45came to President Reagan first time six
30:50way nine cents and to thank him he was
30:53cursing the were involved he met with my
30:56wife and then he spent a lot of efforts
30:58present Gorbachev and they was the first
31:01political prisoners released because of
31:03this so I had personal sense but also I
31:06told him what a great day in prison was
31:09the speech the human psychology he made
31:12me to repeat that every we have to hear
31:15and then I realized that he had a lot of
31:17headache with that speech that's first
31:21second I want to say to here at the half
31:27after this which I was going to come for
31:30the first time to that same America I
31:34come with the idea that when curvature
31:36comes let's hundreds of thousands of
31:38American Jews will march on Washington
31:41and let happen in the end but there was
31:45a few months of discussions they were
31:48some people Jewish community who were
31:50afraid that well everybody wants loves
31:55got macho everybody wants peace we Jews
31:57will be troublemakers we will be against
31:59the desire of American people to
32:01celebrate peace at the tunt and instead
32:05of this demonstration well I thought
32:08it's absolutely wrong that reaction of
32:11the Americans will be different but who
32:14am I to argue with I went to the
32:18students and everybody wanted this
32:19demonstration but was the level of some
32:22bureaucrats there was a little fear that
32:24we
32:25cannot put our Jewish Community Center
32:27station so what I decided to do I
32:29decided to ask Brett Reagan I I said to
32:34go to the White House that my wife went
32:36Reagan I meant to break it but it first
32:39times we are together in America and we
32:42we want to do they can take it together
32:45and he me Utley agreed the meeting and
32:48he looked at us like a proud grandfather
32:51looking at because you know it was
32:56already the start of confusing some of
33:01yours so he said to me and by the way no
33:06day mr. Sheppard answer was hey I just
33:14had a conversation with foreign minister
33:17Sharansky and they told him you better
33:19let Soviet Jews so people are a little
33:22bit embarrassed but they didn't care
33:26president soon you'll see guriccho
33:30himself I want you to know that many was
33:32American Jews want to organize big
33:37demonstration of protest and I want you
33:39to understand that it's not against I
33:43was looking for the words he stoped he
33:46said what somebody can think that I will
33:49be against it of course you talk about
33:52the things that I would like to to be
33:58friends with the garbage overkill he
34:00keeps people in prison do everything
34:03what you have to do don't do what I have
34:05so I went out and said you Reger want us
34:09to have this demonstration but what
34:12suppose later give examples of this
34:14saying I know many politicians the
34:18politicians they so important to know
34:21the names of everybody in their party
34:23the Central Committee to know the dates
34:26of birth to know the day rubber meets
34:28not it not to confuse it but when it
34:31comes to what is good and what is bad
34:33fuel pool confusion
34:35here's pure Sakura you start forgetting
34:37the name
34:38but when it comes what is right and what
34:40is wrong to do he was so clear
34:42even if his action was immediate without
34:45any hesitation how it ended yeah
34:49there are two fundamentally competing
34:52narratives of the way the Cold War ended
34:54one is one holds at the West
34:57reagan-thatcher Pope John Paul the
35:00second place increasing moral economic
35:03military pressure on the Soviet Union
35:05and there undermine Soviet morale until
35:08the Soviet Union collapses but the West
35:11places pressures on the system that the
35:14system cannot bear the other narrative
35:16let's call it the Gorbachev thesis holds
35:18that the Soviet Union collapsed for
35:20entirely internal reasons I found this
35:22quotation Gorbachev was interviewed when
35:25he came to Washington for Reagan's
35:27funeral and when he was asked if the
35:29United States won the Cold War Gorbachev
35:31replied that's not serious he said we
35:33were increasingly behind the West and I
35:34was ashamed for my country we couldn't
35:36provide toothpaste for our own people
35:38nothing to do with what you were doing
35:40you and the West were doing was entirely
35:43internal we were suffering economic
35:45problems and that was what brought us
35:47down how did it end it's obvious of
35:52course so it didn't fell because of the
35:54internal weakness and this internal
35:57weakness was demonstrated to the world
36:02by distance they were those who
36:04understood its weakness they were those
36:06who were connected to this double sink
36:08they were those who already crossed this
36:10line and they knew that millions will do
36:13the same they also use those who
36:15explained into the West that the only
36:18source economical power which sorry too
36:20intimate because is the fact that they
36:23it knows how to deceive the West and how
36:25to get cooperation with the West because
36:27economy it's more and more difficult to
36:30run an economy based on slaves so that's
36:35why it was so important some moment the
36:38West will start listening to this and
36:41linking of the question of human rights
36:43with the creation of canonical
36:44corporation
36:45it started from Center Jackson group
36:48Jackson school Jackson Democrat who yes
36:51for the first
36:52I'm a direct linkage between freedom of
36:54immigration and status all most favored
36:58nation and then continued when we
37:02succeed turn Helsinki agreement from
37:04non-binding something very binding of
37:07course we paid my prison for this right
37:10but so and then reach even Hamid
37:18negotiation Star Wars gas at the moment
37:21when Soviet Union was so desperate and
37:24having big economical difficulties and
37:27trying to convince the world that the
37:31time to stop our competition in fact
37:36Reagan said we will start competing with
37:39you and you can try to be as quick and
37:42as good as we are and so he didn't get
37:44no chance so of course it would
37:46it was just goods it kind of a joke
37:49young leader came and the students they
37:52have all these huge problems and he
37:54starts has to start giving up releasing
37:58prisoners decreasing pressure but why he
38:01understood it only because there was
38:02such a pressure and because economical
38:04system didn't work so when I am asked
38:07who is responsible for bringing down the
38:10Soviet Union I would say first of all
38:14it's dissidents like Andrei Socko then
38:17it's well teachers like Reagan and
38:19senator Jackson
38:20and then of course also supported we've
38:24gotta choke by the way it's very
38:26personal months we appeared together and
38:28she said you I released you and you say
38:30that I am on the third place after
38:33regular doctor sacra one more passage
38:39from fear no evil you're writing here
38:42about after your release your writing
38:44from Jerusalem after nine years in
38:46prison in the punishment cell life was
38:49much simpler every day brought only one
38:51choice good or evil white or black
38:54saying yes or no to the KGB in freedom I
38:58am lost in a myriad of choices when I
39:02walk on the street dozens of cheeses
39:04fruits and juices stare at me from
39:06store windows what to drink in the
39:07morning coffee or tea what newspaper to
39:10read where to go for Sabbath how to
39:12enjoy the vivid colors of freedom
39:14without losing the existential x' depth
39:17i felt in prison how to retain that
39:21unique feeling of the interconnection of
39:24human souls which i discovered in the
39:26gulag
39:27these are the questions i must answer in
39:29my new life now we've spoken a couple of
39:34times about the younger generation the
39:37younger generation in the west in my
39:39mind of course i'm in american the
39:41younger generation of americans it's
39:43been more than 25 years since the fall
39:45of the soviet union they have no memory
39:47at all and all kinds of polls show that
39:50they're dubious about the capitalist
39:53system in the last presidential election
39:55young people disproportionately
39:57supported bernie sanders is it the case
40:04that they're searching for the kind of
40:07existential depth that you discovered in
40:10prison some kind of meaning and that day
40:13to day ordinary capitalist life doesn't
40:17provide it that freedom as we experience
40:21it is its own solvent that it leads
40:24people to search for something deeper
40:26yeah well before criticizing young
40:31generation which never knew never lived
40:34under communism let's remember that the
40:37time when communist existed there were
40:39so many people in the free world who
40:41refused to recognize the nature of
40:43communist so ii yeah i think nothing can
40:48replace the in the experience of people
40:52their own search for justice and for
40:55freedom and for thought i can say that
41:00dealing a lot with young Jews on the
41:02campuses today and say that when young
41:07Jews are trying to find the answer to
41:10the same question which I had when I was
41:13a young saying that should we work with
41:17the better of all the world
41:19or for ourselves for our own people and
41:23if you really believe that you have to
41:25choose you always will choose better
41:28walls about and then you can go to the
41:32Romantics of communism something but if
41:34you understand what I understood very
41:36well that if you want to make the world
41:40better
41:41you must have strong identity
41:44you must have base history that you want
41:48to belong to people that make your story
41:51bigger than your own story you there are
41:55some great principles which are more
41:58important for you than physical life
42:00then when you have this base you can
42:03make the world better so I think this
42:05need to keep together our desire to
42:08belong now our desire to be free
42:10something very important which are very
42:13often losers look at Europe which
42:16decided that identity is the enemy of
42:19freedom and the result trying to get rid
42:24of its own identity we became powerless
42:29life almost without meaning life which
42:32does give you strength to fight against
42:34real threats to your freedom
42:36so all this postmodern world is in a
42:39real danger because it's losing its
42:41identity in order to enjoy freedom and
42:45cannot even defend their freedom on the
42:47other hand we do is all these strong
42:50identities which are against freedom I
42:53always give example of Israel we are
42:56part of Middle East but we insists we
42:59are democracy and we are part of free
43:01world but we insist we a Jewish state so
43:03we are going against these both
43:06tendencies in the Middle East or
43:08dictators and in the free world of
43:11possible their post identity but that's
43:14the only way really to joy full
43:16meaningful life and to be free
43:19last couple of questions summary a
43:22summary stick if you could can you
43:24reduce to one sentence what young
43:27Americans most need to know to cling to
43:31about the Soviet Union Soviet Union
43:36tried to turn people in the Koch a big
43:41machine which exists the imagination of
43:44the communism and that people have to be
43:49deprived of their individuality in order
43:53to be good cogs of this big robot and
43:58that's the danger of any totalitarian
44:02ideology and can you give them one
44:05sentence of young Americans what they
44:08most should grasp and hold on to about
44:12the United States itself freedom freedom
44:20begins from inside but it is the road
44:24outside which gives you opportunity to
44:27enjoy it and the America is the country
44:30which is not only a good place for
44:32shopping but good place also to enjoy
44:35your freedom if you know how to to be
44:39free natan Sharansky thank you I'm Peter
44:43Robinson for uncommon knowledge and the
44:45Hoover Institution thank you
44:47[Music]

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