YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Fat Loss Protocol For Cyclists With Dr. Tim Podlogar | Dialed Health Podcast #230

Fat Loss Protocol For Cyclists With Dr. Tim Podlogar | Dialed Health Podcast #230 — Transcript

by DIALED HEALTH · 12,671 words · 1,784 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00What's up, Do fam? Welcome back to the
0:02podcast. My name is Derek Teal, and on
0:04today's episode, I'm sitting down with
0:05Dr. Tim Podlagar to discuss how cyclists
0:08should approach fat loss. Now, you may
0:10recognize him from working with teams
0:12like Red Bull, Borah Hansgrow, or Tutor
0:14Pro Cycling. But Tim is a exercise
0:16physiologist who specializes in exercise
0:18metabolism and helps these athletes lose
0:22body fat to hit the body composition and
0:24weight goals that they have as a pro,
0:26but to do it in a way that allows them
0:28to continue to perform and to monitor
0:30that performance so that they can still
0:31ride at the highest level. So my goal
0:34today is to break down this protocol so
0:36that it's clear for you to follow it and
0:38then answer any questions that arise
0:40during our conversation. So, you're
0:42going to leave this episode with clarity
0:43on your basil metabolic rate, how many
0:46calories to add for a given workout,
0:48what your total deficit should be, what
0:50your macronutrients should be, what
0:52types of foods that you should fuel with
0:54for regular meals throughout the day and
0:56for your rides, and much, much more. And
0:58on top of that, we even discuss lactate
1:00gels and whether or not that is hype or
1:02something very legit that has just
1:04entered the market. And before we dive
1:05into this episode, I want to remind you
1:07to please subscribe to the channel, drop
1:09this video a thumbs up, and let me know
1:11if you have any questions from this
1:12conversation by dropping them in the
1:14comments below. And without further ado,
1:16let's dive into this episode. Tim, I've
1:18been a fan for a while, so it is great
1:20to have you on the podcast. How are you?
1:22>> Um, thanks. Yeah, I'm doing well. Um,
1:25thanks.
1:26Yeah, you were on the roadman cycling
1:29podcast and talking about fat loss
1:32specifically for cyclists and some of
1:35the pro teams that you're working with
1:37and how to navigate it. And it really
1:39resonated with me as someone from the
1:41general fitness industry who's put
1:43together fat loss protocols.
1:45And I think it mostly resonated because
1:48you have a real focus on fueling rides,
1:51but also this reality and understanding
1:54that it's not easy and there's hunger
1:56involved and you have to be very
1:59intentional about what you're doing. So
2:02what is your approach with fat loss for
2:06cyclists in particular? Uh do you start
2:09by finding basil metabolic rate and then
2:11going from there? Like I'm really
2:12curious about what your process would be
2:14from the very start.
2:17>> Yeah, I think you can go around and in
2:20circles around what you want to measure
2:22in the lab. And I'm a scientist myself,
2:24so I can like kind of have access to all
2:26the equipment, but when it comes to
2:28working with athletes, um I tend to not
2:32go um down the route of like over
2:35testing people um just because I think
2:38there is also a measurement error in the
2:40lab. Um, and I don't think it would be
2:44too helpful to get people um out of
2:47their training process, especially when
2:48you're working with cyclists. They would
2:50need to travel to your lab and then
2:52maybe you would get your resting
2:54metabolic rate um more accurate, but
2:58like 50 calories. I think just the
3:00equations um on their own would be like
3:03just accurate enough um if you choose
3:05the one that is kind of um tailored for,
3:08for example, endurance athletes. Um, and
3:10then if you're like 100 kilo calories
3:13plus um or minus um at the end of the
3:16day when you have daily energy
3:18expenditure of like 5,000 kilo calories,
3:21that's pretty much nothing. Um, so I
3:24really don't bother about it.
3:27>> That's really refreshing to hear. I
3:28honestly was expecting an answer the
3:30opposite direction because I would refer
3:32somebody to an equation on a website
3:35that I think it's like the Benedict
3:36Harris uh basil metabolic rate is like
3:39the kind of longl lasting equation
3:43or I would have them hopefully do some
3:46type of a body composition scan like a
3:48DEXA or even an inbody scan because what
3:50I've noticed from my experience is that
3:53they all tend to be pretty close and it
3:56seems like this like you're resting
3:58metabolic rate. It almost seems like a
4:00slightly moving target as well. It's
4:02almost like FTP where it's like, are you
4:05ever really going to find the exact
4:06number? And if you do, it might change
4:09dayto day. So stressing about a 50
4:12calorie difference or 100 calorie
4:14difference really isn't the point. Is
4:16that what you're saying?
4:17>> Yeah, exactly. Because also like you
4:20know we talking about like 1,800,900
4:23kilo calories but then we have the
4:25largest proportion of energy comes from
4:28um the exercise or the structured
4:31exercise you do. So you have absolutely
4:32no idea about how efficient actually
4:35people are on the bike. So that will
4:38produce an additional um source of error
4:41and then you have also most of the time
4:43not a good idea what they do during the
4:46day. um how active they are outside
4:49exercise. Um for example, riders that
4:52for example are young uh will have will
4:56be more active usually than the older
4:58riders or all the riders with kids will
5:01be more active and this can all kind of
5:03have a large effect on how much energy
5:06they need um dayto-day in order to
5:09function normally. Um so and this is
5:12really difficult to assess because again
5:14like I can get a rider to the lab and
5:17measure um efficiency on a um bike
5:21trainer indoors but again there will be
5:24a problem that um they usually not or
5:28they might not be used to riding indoors
5:30and riding indoors is very different to
5:32riding outdoors. Thermmorr regulation
5:34just the feelings the cadence would be
5:37different. So weight loss for me is just
5:40like a big um or like just calculating
5:44energy expenditure on a daily basis is a
5:47bit of like a art more than a science
5:50because it's like a bit of a trial and
5:52error. Um and sometimes from our
5:54experience from the riders you just need
5:56first a period of month or two to just
6:00get their calculations right to be able
6:04to maintain body mass. Um and then then
6:06you can start working towards like
6:08weight loss or other goals. um once you
6:12kind of get to know the the person um
6:14and I think the more active people are
6:17the bigger this error is going to be
6:20because if you're dealing with someone
6:22that has I don't know energy expenditure
6:24in a day of around 3,000 kilo calories
6:26which is for example what I would
6:28probably have um
6:31the air is like you know um a few% plus
6:35minus it's not going to be massive but
6:37then when you have a professional rider
6:40um doing like 6,000 kilo calories per
6:43day, you know, like you can easily um
6:4610% or um yeah can be massive or even
6:5020%. So I think there you need to be a
6:53bit more careful about how you go um and
6:55calculate things and I don't think there
6:57is equation a type of equations that
7:00would match or work with every rider
7:04that you have. You know, that leads me
7:07to the active calories question because
7:10you're you're saying that, okay, someone
7:12can get ballpark pretty close with a
7:14simple uh equation to plug their height,
7:17their weight, their uh gender,
7:19everything like that into. And I can
7:21leave an equation like that for everyone
7:22in the description just so you can get
7:24started. But typically, the next step in
7:26recommendation would be to add on your
7:29activity level calories. And this is
7:31always where to me it felt like it gets
7:33real fluffy. you know, it gets like a
7:35little more of an art than a science
7:37like you're talking about, but I've
7:39always done it where I try and add
7:42calories and establish a baseline that
7:45represents everything you do outside of
7:48your workouts and writing. Whereas I
7:50noticed like a lot of new uh nutrition
7:54sports apps or uh like services will
7:59kind of lump it all together. And so
8:03when it comes to adding the active
8:05calories, do you always consider the
8:07bike ride or do you consider okay let's
8:09get establish a baseline for this person
8:11as far as everything they're doing off
8:12the bike aka okay this is what their BMR
8:15is their resting metabolic rate like if
8:17they don't do anything today and then
8:19they happen now they happen to have like
8:21two kids and they are a construction
8:24worker and so their day-to-day job is
8:26like super physical they're on their
8:27feet and they haven't even done a ride
8:28yet so it's like adding the extra
8:30calories for that person's baseline
8:32opposed to someone who maybe doesn't
8:33have young kids, maybe sits at a desk
8:36for their job. How do you navigate that
8:38difference?
8:40I mean it depends on like what type of
8:42software you're using but usually I try
8:44to work with like three variables which
8:47is the first one so resting metabolic
8:49rate then adding the PAL factor so the
8:52physical activity level um on top of
8:55that but that does not include um the
8:58exercise on the bike or any structured
9:01exercise. So I use that PAL factor which
9:04is kind of physical activity level um as
9:07a way to kind of balance everything out.
9:10Um so some apps for example would not
9:13allow you to enter your own um
9:18a gross efficiency on the bike. Uh so
9:21you just can ramp up the pal a little
9:23bit more to kind of bring these uh
9:26calories um um yeah to be a bit higher
9:29in a day. Um and usually like I take so
9:33um the
9:35day has 24 hours. So you count the
9:38resting metabolic rate for um 24 hours
9:41generally um and then apply the PAL
9:43factor on top of it. What I do is I take
9:46away the five five hour ride. So for
9:49example, somebody has done a five hour
9:51right. So I only take them 19 hours um
9:56of resting metabolic rate for that day.
9:59and then apply this PAL factor of like I
10:01don't know 1.4 if somebody is like
10:04moderately active during the day. Um and
10:08like 1.6 1.7 for someone that is like
10:11walking around, commuting, doing some a
10:14lot of like unstructured stuff or
10:16somebody that's super sedentary would be
10:18like 1.3. Um and then play around on the
10:22top of that with the um yeah exercise
10:25energy expenditure and try to find gross
10:28efficiency that actually yeah works for
10:31them.
10:32>> Oh that's interesting. So your
10:34additional the PAL factor first off I
10:36haven't heard that acronym before
10:38physical activity level. Uh it in the
10:41general fitness industry a lot of people
10:42use tde total daily uh energy
10:46expenditure. So, it's kind of like it
10:48sounds like the same thing, but it seems
10:50like in the general health and like
10:53fitness industry, what I've seen is it's
10:54usually like a 1.1 to 1.3 uh multiplier
10:58to get that number,
11:00>> but you're saying like 1.3 to 1.6 or 1.7
11:04could be more accurate if you're a
11:06physical person.
11:08>> Well, I've seen and all the numbers. Um,
11:11and I have
11:13>> I had two riders last year that I was
11:15working with. one we set the PAL factor
11:18to 1.2 and added a lot of deficit and he
11:22still wasn't losing body mass. On the
11:25other um hand side we had a rider with a
11:28pile of 1.6 and he was losing body uh
11:32mass. Um so we had to kind of go higher.
11:34So I think this number is like very
11:37variable and that's why kind of said you
11:39need kind of a calibration period to get
11:41that right. uh because um it's difficult
11:44and if you create too much of a deficit
11:47to start with um it's just not going to
11:49work. Um it's just not going to be
11:51sustainable. Um but these numbers vary a
11:55lot. Um and one thing that we don't
11:58usually like don't talk about and don't
12:00mention and it's I think can be really
12:02important is a thermic effect of food.
12:05So, when you're digesting and
12:07metabolizing the food and storing, for
12:09example, carbohydrates or dealing with
12:11protein, you lose quite a lot of energy
12:14there. Um, and some websites will add
12:18that number on the top of all the
12:20calories. I tend not to use that uh
12:23because I'm not super sure that these
12:26values actually make sense for um
12:28athletes. But the more you kind of the
12:32more active you are, the more you eat as
12:34a consequence um the higher this
12:36proportion will be. And that's why I
12:38think for highly trained athletes
12:40sometimes a PAL factor might just be or
12:43this factor might be a bit higher just
12:46also because of the gross amount that
12:49the vast amount of food they are eating
12:50and protein and all the foods. Yeah,
12:53[snorts]
12:53>> that's really interesting. So, your body
12:55is having to work to digest and uh
12:58process a lot more food than someone
12:59who's eating, let's say, a third of the
13:02calories per day just because you're so
13:03active and you're taking in so much. And
13:06it it sounds like protein in particular
13:08is the will give you the most thermal
13:11effect because it just takes more for
13:13your body to break it down.
13:15>> Yeah, I think it's around like 20 to 30%
13:17of calories are lost down to heat when
13:21it comes to protein. And then when it
13:22comes to carbohydrates, I think it's
13:24around 10. And then fat is pretty much
13:26stored as it is. So you don't lose any
13:29energy there. But you know on a daily
13:31basis,
13:33this can account for like 10% of total
13:35energy um intake. So somebody eating
13:395,000 calories um the actual energy
13:44expenditure on top of like that just to
13:46process this food might be yeah 500
13:49calories. So it's it's quite
13:50significant.
13:52Wow, this would be a great time to ask
13:53the question about macronutrients.
13:56Uh, and and for everyone listening,
13:57we're going to come back to really
13:59trying to set up your own day and and
14:01what a proper deficit is and all these
14:03things, but let's talk macronutrients
14:05really quick. Uh, do you have a specific
14:09guideline for amount of protein per day
14:12or carbs or fat? Like, is there a
14:14percentage that you tend to work off of?
14:18Uh what do you what do you go with for
14:21macronutrients?
14:22>> Um I use grams per kilo. So that might
14:25be a bit annoying for the American
14:28audience. Um but I don't know the
14:31conversion. So I'll just need to stick
14:33with the numbers. Um so fat I usually
14:36just put it to like 0.8
14:39grams per kilo or one gram per kilo when
14:42it comes to weight loss. So that's a
14:44very like lowfat diet. Um so really
14:47small proportion will come out of fat.
14:49And then protein um protein is a tough
14:53one because we know like from the
14:54evidence or the scientific papers they
14:56will be saying oh you don't need that
14:58much protein to build muscle mass. I
15:01don't know um like anything above like
15:031.8 grams per kilo is like yeah just
15:06wasted. Um it's not worth it. But the
15:09problem in endurance athletes is that
15:11they're eating so much that if you would
15:15be sticking to these kind of general
15:17guidelines um you would not get any high
15:20quality protein in because everything
15:22would come from just eating pasta pretty
15:24much because pasta and carbohydrate
15:27sources have a lot of protein but that's
15:30low quality protein. So we then need to
15:32ramp up the protein a bit little bit
15:34higher and then it's ends up in the
15:36range between two and 2.5 grams per kilo
15:40and that's kind of fixed. I don't tend
15:43to change that. And everything else is
15:45just carbohydrates.
15:48>> So essentially it's closer like two to
15:502.2 grams per kilo would be closer to
15:53one gram per pound essentially. Like
15:55it's almost like a one one for protein.
15:57if you were to add a higher quality
15:58source of protein on top of all the
16:01carbohydrates.
16:03>> Yeah, I don't know the conversion, but I
16:05think it's I'm trying to get, you know,
16:07to follow the guidelines so that each
16:09meal of the the main meal of the day.
16:11So, talking breakfast, then talking
16:14recovery, lunch, and dinner. Uh so these
16:17four meals have enough high quality
16:20protein to kind of like stimulate uh
16:22maximally stimulate protein synthesis.
16:25Um and then everything else then is just
16:28yeah um protein that just is there for
16:31the sake of being there from
16:33carbohydrates. Um but sometimes it comes
16:36up pretty high just because of the sheer
16:39amount of carbs.
16:40>> And by high quality protein are you uh
16:43talking about just a better amino acid
16:46profile like more leucine like what
16:48would make a protein more high quality?
16:52Yeah, it's about lucine and other
16:54essential amino acids. So I kind of try
16:57to say for athletes that are not like
17:01vegetarian vegan that they have at
17:03breakfast for example some skier or some
17:06like eggs or something that would get
17:08like the animal source protein so that
17:11the protein doesn't come from like
17:13porridge oats for example um or that
17:17they have like I don't know milk protein
17:19or something chicken slices or something
17:22like that. Um, and then the same for
17:24recovery. So, it's not just coming from
17:26pasta, but it's something either a
17:28protein shake or it's again like some
17:31meat or um, yeah, poultry or um, fish.
17:34Um, and the same at dinner.
17:37>> You know, this is a this is a personal
17:39side note. I lost my ability to drink
17:41milk and it's so frustrating because
17:42it's just such an easy way to get in
17:44quality protein [laughter]
17:46like milk, chocolate milk, whey protein,
17:48all those things. It drives me crazy. Uh
17:51so anyone that can take advantage of
17:53that, I highly recommend it. And it's
17:56good. You know, the conversion you were
17:57talking about, I want to say it's close
17:58to one to one uh or 0.8 to one gram per
18:02pound of body weight. And anyone can
18:04obviously use uh you know uh Google to
18:08confirm that. uh and I can do it in the
18:10notes as well, but it does sound in line
18:12with a lot of the recommendations I've
18:13heard from more athletic focused
18:16nutritionists or people more in uh
18:19sports. And I [clears throat] think it's
18:21an easy guideline to follow, especially
18:24when you're setting up your
18:25macronutrients because let's say you
18:27figure out, okay, my basil metabolic
18:29rate is 1,800 calories. If I add on my
18:33PAL my uh extra activity level and it
18:38bumps up to a baseline of let's just say
18:402200 calories or 2,300 calories. Now, of
18:44that 2,300 calories, I want to make sure
18:46I'm getting one gram per pound of uh
18:48body weight and protein. And so, let's
18:51say I'm just going to guess on numbers
18:54here for that person. Maybe you're
18:55around 160 pounds. Uh so, you want about
18:59160 grams of protein. That's like a
19:01really good place to start because then
19:03you know I need to get as many
19:05carbohydrates as I can. I need to eat
19:07fat, but fat's not going to be the best
19:10fuel source for what I'm trying to
19:12accomplish athletically. Um, so what
19:14I've noticed setting up equations like
19:17this is that the protein tends to be
19:18around like 25 30%. The fat ends up
19:22being actually more like 20 to 25. And
19:25then for the baseline, the carbohydrates
19:27tend to be around 50%, maybe 45 to 50.
19:30And that is like a baseline pie chart of
19:33like what I would have myself work off
19:35of or someone work off of. But then when
19:39you introduce that ride, now the extra
19:42carbs get dumped on top of it. And
19:45that's when that pie chart is now going
19:47to swing and your baseline of 45 to 50%
19:49carbs for the day. for example, once you
19:52do a uh you know 2,000 kgle ride, it's
19:56now going to swing up to like 65%. Or
19:59maybe even more of your total daily. Um,
20:01but I found that almost separating the
20:04ride from your daily is a very simple
20:07way to approach it if you're trying to
20:10stay in a deficit and stay like on top
20:13of how many like you're you're
20:14essentially regulating your
20:16carbohydrates each day on how much
20:18activity you have like from the from the
20:20ride.
20:22>> Yeah, exactly. I think this is also like
20:24something that I use when I talk about
20:27PE to talk to people that are obsessed
20:29with like healthy foods and they're
20:31like, "Oh, we don't need, you know, we
20:33are not getting enough um veggies and I
20:38don't know, whole grains and stuff like
20:40that." And they're like obsessed of not
20:42having enough um of having too much um
20:46um sugars. And I'm like, okay, like your
20:49energy expenditure is 6,000 or 5,000 or
20:524,000 kilo calories.
20:54It's pretty much impossible to eat like
20:57this super high amounts with healthy
21:00food. So I say okay take the normal
21:03people's diet that's inactive use that
21:07as a baseline of like the healthy foods
21:09and the rest can come from like simple
21:11carbohydrates because that's on top of
21:14everything and that's what is going to
21:16go into the quick recovery or during the
21:19ride. Um but in general your diet can be
21:22very similar to your friend's diet
21:24that's not active. Um, it's just that
21:28you need to kind of get more carbs in.
21:31>> I I love that you mentioned that because
21:33it's funny when you learn about
21:35macronutrients and then you see like the
21:37more holistic style of eating. It almost
21:40seems like they are treat like they're
21:43just two different things. When in
21:44reality, you need to consider both
21:45because you can't just eat Pop-Tarts and
21:48expect to feel good. Even though you
21:50could hit your macros by eating
21:51Pop-Tarts and protein powder, which like
21:53a lot of people do. Uh, but you also
21:57just can't eat avocados all day, even
21:59though it's like a beautiful, healthy,
22:01nutritious food, it's not going to fuel
22:03you the way that you want. And however,
22:05when you do have a goal for your main
22:08meals throughout the day of eating whole
22:10foods and having fiber and a variety of
22:13foods, but then you understand, okay, I
22:15need to dump like 200 grams of or 300
22:20grams of carbohydrates of pure sugar on
22:22top of this. And that is what makes
22:25sense. It's like that is in my opinion
22:28one of the best ways to approach it,
22:30which is essentially me repeating what
22:32you just said, which is like, okay, eat
22:34healthy, well-rounded meals, but then
22:36dump a bunch of sugar to fuel your rides
22:38and make sure the timing lines up with
22:41your rides itself.
22:43>> Yeah, exactly. That's how I would I
22:46think it would make a lot of sense. Um,
22:49yeah, nothing to add.
22:51>> Well, thanks. I I'm just uh it's almost
22:54like a validation of things. So,
22:55[snorts] I appreciate you letting me
22:56repeat back kind of what you're saying.
22:58Um you mentioned the deficit earlier and
23:02that if someone starts with too much of
23:04a deficit, it backfires because it's not
23:06sustainable. So, when someone has these
23:08numbers figured out, they have some
23:10goals and their goal is, hey, I still
23:12want to train.
23:14maybe my number one focus is fat loss
23:16and I'm not concerned about raising my
23:18FTP right now or whatever it is, but I
23:20want to train maintain my fitness if
23:22possible.
23:24What would be a deficit to aim for for
23:26that athlete to get started uh in the
23:28beginning and then how would that change
23:30as they continue?
23:32>> I mean usually people go with like 500
23:35400 kilo calories of a deficit and see
23:37how riders or people are feeling and see
23:40how the scales are moving. Um, I like to
23:43kind of change this deficit quite a bit.
23:45So on some days it's a bit more,
23:47sometimes it's a bit less depending on
23:49the kind of goals of the sessions. Um,
23:52so we always make sure that riders are
23:55feeling still good on high intensity
23:57sessions but maybe feeling a bit more or
24:02less good on like long or low intensity
24:06sessions. um because this is when like
24:09the demand for carbohydrates are not
24:10that high. Um and it's perfectly fine to
24:13be a bit like struggling a bit because
24:15there is no competition. Um but I think
24:19the most important still is that you are
24:21able to kind of sustain your training
24:23intensity that you're doing. Um and then
24:26see how this goes. um because in a way
24:29you know like if you don't fuel and then
24:31you need to reduce your power output
24:33during the session by I don't know 20
24:36watts and also the energy expenditure
24:37will go down. So I think it makes a lot
24:40of sense to just fuel enough to be able
24:42to sustain and recover from the training
24:45sessions, maintain the training volume
24:48and work around that fueling wise so
24:51that yeah, you get everything right. And
24:54I kind of found that it's a lot about
24:56also listening to the riders and what
24:59they kind of fuel they prefer. Some
25:01riders really like to have plenty on the
25:04bike. some riders can go with low
25:06amounts on the bike and then you
25:08redistribute carbohydrates around the
25:10sessions. Um so I think it's very
25:12individual and this is where like yeah
25:15the more [snorts] the better you know
25:16the the rider the better um the outcomes
25:19are going to be.
25:21>> When you said that the deficit will
25:23backfire and it's not sustainable. What
25:25do you see happen? Is that because
25:28someone's metabolism all of a sudden
25:30doesn't work anymore or is it because
25:33they just crack and eat a bunch of food
25:36because they're so so hungry?
25:38>> Yeah, I think it's some basically there
25:41is always an option of getting into
25:43relative energy deficiency and all the
25:46kind of health negative health
25:47consequences regarding that. So that's
25:50especially like in triathletes and um
25:53runners that would be most kind of
25:55apparent with the um bone um yeah bone
25:59issues but
26:02generally I think it's like in riders
26:04it's a lot of the time yeah then they
26:06crack one day and then you're back to
26:08square one um because you just kind of
26:11go into these cycles of yeah controlling
26:14the diet logging everything and then
26:17there is one day and they just eat
26:19everything and then you go back to the
26:21track and then it's you know three days
26:23or four days of recording, three or four
26:26days of eating whatever they want and
26:28then there is just no change on the
26:30scale um over time. So I think when it
26:34comes to
26:36um nutrition is the same as when it
26:38comes to training. It's about
26:39consistency. You know like if somebody
26:41goes to the gym once a month they will
26:43have doms after every single session. Um
26:47and if they go regularly they probably
26:49won't have that issue. And it's the same
26:51with yeah um nutrition here. like you
26:54just need to find something that you can
26:56sustain for a long period of time. Um
26:59and have like still days when you can
27:01have something nice um something that
27:04you want and you something you crave. Uh
27:06but don't go to the way that like you
27:09have days when you can just eat
27:11literally everything.
27:13>> Yeah. It's scary and kind of hilarious
27:17how fast you can undo all hard work like
27:20with eating. Like if it's just crazy
27:23like you could have six great days where
27:26you are completely on track and if you
27:27completely blow it out on one day you
27:29could start over every single week.
27:31>> Yeah, pretty much. Um
27:33>> and the bloating comes along with it.
27:35Like there's just like layers of stuff,
27:36you know? It's not just like the
27:37calories. It's like your body just
27:39freaks out, you know? Um with that said,
27:42it's like do you ever recommend a refeed
27:45day for somebody? Uh this is really
27:47popular in uh bodybuilding for example
27:50where you're in a calorie deficit for uh
27:53quite a long period of time and then
27:54they do a day where it's like super high
27:56carbs all of a sudden. And their idea it
27:59it goes back to the metabolism thing
28:01where it's like restoing your metabolism
28:04to get it to work a little bit faster.
28:06Uh but again you don't go so over on one
28:10day that it u derails you for instance.
28:14Um, is that something that you introduce
28:16to your riders?
28:18>> I mean, this is something we could call
28:19that glycogen loading. So, you know, you
28:22would do that before a race or you would
28:24do that before a kind of like load
28:26someone before a really intense training
28:28session. So, you would give them quite a
28:30lot of carbs. Um, and I think when it
28:33comes to kind of this loading or these
28:34kind of days, we need to make a
28:37difference between like loading and just
28:40carbohydrate loading. Because if we just
28:42load with people with carbohydrates,
28:44they will probably not gain or will not
28:46gain pretty much any fat even though
28:48you're in a surplus. But if you gain
28:50them on like, you know, sweets that are
28:53mostly consisting of fat like chocolate
28:56um then you will obviously just store
28:58that fat and yeah um need to start over
29:01again. Um but when it comes to just
29:04adding carbohydrates on certain days, I
29:06think it makes a lot of sense um from
29:08the performance perspective. So that you
29:11see like where they are in the um when
29:14they were normally fat. So you know like
29:17performance might deteriorate a little
29:19bit during the severe or like weight
29:22loss period. Then you introduce like a
29:24day or two when the carbohydrate intake
29:26is higher and you try to see what
29:29happens to the performance again uh when
29:31they're normally um yeah nutritionally
29:35supported. How fast would someone feel
29:38those gains from the added carbs? Like
29:41let's say someone's in a deficit for
29:42three weeks and they're losing fat,
29:44they're doing their goals, but they do
29:45feel a little flat on the bike. Uh if
29:48you reintroduce those carbohydrates,
29:51when would they expect to feel good? Or
29:54and for instance, how long could someone
29:56run a deficit before they want to
29:58perform?
29:59I mean when it comes to just like
30:02physiologically carbohydrate stores will
30:04get filled up in a day of like no
30:08exercise and plenty of carbs. So I don't
30:10think there is like a you need a
30:12multiple days so to to achieve that. Um
30:15it's maybe just that from perspective
30:17like proper recovery if you're like
30:19really tired um in terms of like the
30:22muscles haven't recovered and there is a
30:24more deep problem in terms of the im
30:26immune function um and other things um
30:30that might take a little bit more but if
30:33it's just like a healthy deficit then
30:35yeah one or two days of refeed to just
30:37get you back on track uh for a good high
30:40intensity session.
30:42>> That's awesome. You know, one thing I
30:44was uh thinking about while we were
30:46talking about the refueling is that if
30:48I've been in a sustained deficit and I'm
30:51going riding and I
30:54Anyone who's been through this knows the
30:56feeling where on a normal day if you're
30:58not tracking food and trying to lose
31:00body fat, you could go ride for an hour
31:02or two and you really don't feel like
31:04you need anything. And of course, we uh
31:07fuel the rides with carbs just for
31:09recovery and to stay on top of things.
31:10But if you're in a deficit for a while
31:12and you got on a ride, you're 15 minutes
31:14in and you start like you're like
31:16looking around for food like all of a
31:17sudden, right? Like you're all you're
31:20dreaming about some uh Haros or
31:22something like that already. So I found
31:25that if you frontload the carbs earlier
31:28in the session, it just tends to be it
31:30it feels a lot better. So, like taking a
31:33gel prior to starting, um, having some
31:36candy prior to starting and instead of
31:38like waiting 30 minutes to an hour to
31:41start fueling for the ride, almost do it
31:42the opposite way. And then you can use
31:45that it feels like I'm using it actually
31:48during that session. And, you know, to
31:51be honest with you, I've had a lot of
31:53really good days two weeks into a fat
31:56loss uh uh tracking goal when I fuel
32:01like that. And I think that it's
32:02partially because I am using those
32:04carbs. But I also think that there's
32:06other things that have happened in my
32:08body that make me just feel better. Like
32:10I'm not drinking alcohol. I'm drinking
32:12more water. I'm less bloated. My body's
32:15not working so hard to digest all this
32:17food that I've been shoveling down my
32:18face. You know, it's like you come in
32:20just like tight and feel like ready. And
32:24as soon as you get those carbs in pre
32:25session, it's it's I tend to feel better
32:29than everyone wants to make it sound
32:31like like it's like I feel like the
32:33narrative online is like you cannot
32:35perform if you're in a calorie deficit
32:37period. And I don't I don't I haven't
32:39had that experience.
32:40>> I mean this is like comes to really like
32:43kind of tough physiology and like
32:47understanding what's actually happening
32:48to like in the body. But if you're an
32:51energy deficit, usually like your
32:53insulin sensitivity will be really high.
32:56Uh which means that you know processing
32:58the carbs will be the muscles will just
33:01crave the carbohydrates and everything
33:03will go in and like you will really see
33:05the effects. Whereas if you like do a
33:07glycogen loading for like two or three
33:09days like have carbohydrate source
33:12completely topped up and overflow the
33:15you know like almost like overflown. um
33:19the system will just kind of almost shut
33:21it down and you will kind of feel like
33:25heavy and um almost like insulin
33:27resistant. Um, and I've I've seen this
33:30in some athletes um over the last years
33:33that like sometimes this proper glycogen
33:36loading be before like one day races is
33:38actually not something they want to do
33:40just because it makes them feel like
33:43heavy and sluggish and um yeah,
33:47>> that is me man.
33:49>> This is very validating.
33:50>> That's exactly how I feel. I get super
33:53uh I I feel lethargic when I like
33:57>> carb load.
33:58>> Yeah. Because I think this is
34:01if you think about like what kind of
34:03what when when insulin resistance
34:05happens and this goes to the like why
34:07carbohydrates or sugars um are not bad
34:10until they are is you know when you eat
34:14carbohydrates um in normal amounts
34:17daytoday um some of the carbohydrates
34:20will be oxidized straight away some of
34:22them will be stored as muscle glycogen
34:24and some will go and be stored as liver
34:27glycogen. So if you maintain like a
34:30normal carbohydrate availability dayto
34:32day, you will just use some of the
34:35carbs. Some of the carbs get stored and
34:37everything is fine. If you're in energy
34:39surplus, which is might might happen
34:41when you do a kind of a proper glycogen
34:43load. What happens is that you will get
34:46a lot of carbs and at at first these
34:50carbohydrates will get more and more
34:52stored into the muscle but at some point
34:53muscle will become full. So carbs will
34:56start floating in the bloodstream, more
34:58insulin will be released and um very
35:01likely yeah some more carb glycogen will
35:06be stored but at some point like there
35:09is just carboh carbohydrates have
35:11nowhere to go and you know um some sort
35:14of insulin resistance will form and I
35:16kind of have a feeling that this affects
35:19people's um yeah physiology and feelings
35:22and how they then perform the next Okay.
35:25Um, and this is why like this is the
35:28same as would happen to anyone like you
35:31know sedentary people eating a little
35:34bit too much of anything. They will just
35:37become insulin resistance and I think
35:39this can happen like very quickly. So
35:42physiology and these kind of cellular
35:45processes
35:46occur very quickly and I kind of have a
35:49feeling that this could happen just
35:51after yeah just proper glycogen load
35:54protocol.
35:55>> Wow, it's very cool and it's definitely
35:57not to undermine any uh carb loading
36:00pre-event for people. It does work for a
36:02lot of people it seems like. Um but it's
36:04it's interesting you bring that up
36:06because I've never talked to someone
36:07about it. anytime I've attempted a
36:09proper glycogen load, I felt more
36:11lethargic during my event. Uh whereas
36:13I've had almost the opposite reaction uh
36:16after a deficit. So hearing about how
36:18your insulin sensitivity changes is uh
36:21very validating. Thank you for that. And
36:23>> yeah, I think when in terms of glycogen
36:25loading, you know, like in the old days,
36:27they did like for three days. Um yes,
36:29for three days is I think way too much.
36:32like one day makes sense. And again,
36:34like the total amount you have needs to
36:38be like anything between like 8 to 12
36:41grams per kilo, but you go and find
36:44something that works for you. Um because
36:47yeah, people are different, people
36:48process carbohydrate is different. The
36:50starting point of glycogen in the
36:52muscles when you start the glycogen load
36:54is different. So I think this all
36:56affects how like kind of these processes
37:00will take place and how effective things
37:02will be. Um but I kind of have a feeling
37:06that like like yeah few days of glycogen
37:09loading is just not going to work and
37:11not going to help anyone.
37:12>> If you have not subscribed yet on
37:14YouTube, please do so. This is where you
37:16can drop your questions in the comments
37:18that we can answer in later episodes. Or
37:20if you're listening on Apple or Spotify,
37:22make sure you're subscribed over there
37:23and drop us a rating. I really
37:25appreciate your connection into this
37:27podcast and I'm so stoked about growing
37:29the dialed fam community because the new
37:32product on Training Peaks is the best
37:36it's ever been. I am shouting this thing
37:39from the mountain tops because of how
37:40proud I am of the strength training that
37:43is now embedded into one calendar with
37:45all of your rides, all of your workouts.
37:47And for $30 a month, not only do you get
37:49your strength training covered, your
37:51mobility sessions covered, you have an
37:53indoor riding platform and all the perks
37:54of training peaks premium at your
37:56fingertips. So go to the description
37:58right now, sign up for dial.com and get
38:00plugged into the community and most
38:02importantly start strength training
38:04today. Going back to the deficit for
38:06someone, you mentioned 500, four to 500
38:09calories is like a good play, maybe
38:11starting point, but that would
38:15essentially mean that on your ride day,
38:18let's say you go and burn a,000 calories
38:20on your ride, that now what you're going
38:23to add is essentially five to 600
38:25calories on top of your uh basil
38:28metabolic rate, like your baseline
38:29calories that we established. And so you
38:32have a 400 calorie to 500 calorie
38:35deficit. Um, and that's essentially how
38:38someone could self-track and regulate
38:40the carb intake because if they went and
38:42did a ride that was 2,000 calorie burn,
38:44now they're going to add back 1500
38:46calories. Is it as simple as that
38:48approach?
38:51>> Yeah. Yes and no. So, one of the things
38:53that I kind of like to have a look at
38:57and is that I don't look at like for
39:00example 24 hours from midnight to
39:03midnight. Um, I like to very often look
39:06from one session to the next session.
39:09Um, so kind of this kind of try to get a
39:13concept of fueling for the work requires
39:15um in the in the game. So for example,
39:18if you have um today on Friday you do
39:22like an easy session but tomorrow you go
39:24for a big ride that you kind of like
39:27already today start fueling for that
39:29right and after Sunday's right when
39:32Monday is like very easy. I try to then
39:35kind of like oh okay next next day is
39:37easy. Um so on average a calorie deficit
39:42on a weekly base might be like 400 500
39:44kilo calories per day but
39:48before like a weekend ride I would
39:50probably just reduce or remove the
39:53deficit altogether and after a really
39:55big day in the saddle you can afford to
39:58have a little bit bigger deficit because
40:01um you just yeah the next day might be a
40:04rest day and um on a big energy
40:07expenditure day, it's easier to get um
40:10yeah, a bigger deficit because the
40:12percentage wise will work a little bit
40:14better.
40:15>> So, would you lean into that or if
40:19someone did burn 4,000 calories, 5,000
40:22calories on a ride in particular, would
40:25you say it's okay to fuel uh with the
40:28goal of the deficit in mind? Let's say
40:30they burn 5,000 calories, you can add on
40:334,500 calories. Or is there like a point
40:35where it's like you actually need to
40:37probably have a,000 calorie deficit
40:39because adding this many carbs is it's
40:42going to be too much uh for your goals.
40:45Like is there a point? Do you understand
40:46what I'm asking? Like is there a typical
40:48>> where all of a sudden it should be a
40:50thousand calorie deficit instead of 500?
40:53>> Um not really. And I've seen this with
40:57like athletes. some some athletes would
40:58be like really good at like sustaining
41:001,000 kilo calories deficit, no problem.
41:03Um, and then some riders would like be
41:05in the next like completely that and
41:07would not be able to do anything
41:08anymore. So, I think it's kind of like
41:10depends on the individuals and again
41:12something to learn. Um, for some riders
41:15I would never do 1,00 kilo calorie
41:17deficit and would like max like 600. Um,
41:20and for some 1,000 might be just Yeah,
41:23that's fine. Um, next day they will be
41:25just okay. Um, I don't know whether
41:28they're better at fat metabolism just
41:30like genetically or what it is. I have
41:33no idea, but it just feels like it's
41:36very individual.
41:38>> I got to imagine that someone's
41:40um habits have a lot to do with this too
41:43outside of like their metabolism in
41:45particular. And I'd be kind of curious
41:47to hear your thoughts on this, but like
41:48I was someone who I ate like a garbage
41:52truck growing up just
41:55and and it once I started eating
41:57healthier as a trainer, eating
41:58healthier, what I started doing was
42:00almost like binge eating where I'd eat
42:02really clean for like five days and then
42:03on the weekend it's like pine of ice
42:05cream with Oreos on top with Reese's
42:08peanut butter and it's like a 2,000
42:09calorie dessert and I would it just like
42:11make myself sick. So that was like a
42:13weird process I had to go through. But
42:15there was a point where I would almost
42:18lean it like time that around rides. And
42:20[clears throat] this is me just being
42:21100% honest. That's not something I'm
42:23super proud of. But it'd be like, "Okay,
42:25I'm going to ride. So if I'm going to
42:26eat some, you know, six donuts today or
42:29six donuts, this is going to be the day
42:30to do it." Well, that was a mentality
42:33for a while. And what was interesting
42:35was that one day I rode a 100 miles and
42:39I tracked every every piece of food,
42:42every calorie that I ate for the entire
42:44day. And I ate up until maintenance. So
42:49I added like 4,000 calories or whatever
42:51it was. And what's crazy is I realized
42:54that I still had to stop myself from
42:56eating more. And it was the weirdest
42:58thing to me of being like, you know,
42:59most people think, oh, I went for a big
43:01ride. I can eat whatever I want. And I'm
43:03[clears throat] actually a person where
43:04I was like, "No, I I was about to out
43:06eat the ride that I did that day, even
43:08though I rode for five hours or whatever
43:11it was." And so, I'm just sharing this
43:13personal story with people because
43:16I have friends, you know, who'd be on
43:18that same ride that really struggle to
43:20even eat a meal after the ride because
43:21they just like don't want food for some
43:23reason. And so, like you're saying, it
43:26could be completely opposite
43:27recommendations for both people. Like
43:28some people need to push more towards
43:30like just try and get closer to a 600
43:32calorie deficit whereas like I'm just
43:34trying not to overeat. I mean when you
43:37when you see the riders at the um like
43:39professional bike races like grand tours
43:42and stuff you have this problem quite
43:45often you know like they are at the
43:46limits of energy expenditure um you know
43:49everyone know like they spend so much
43:51they can eat so much but actually a lot
43:54of the days you need to hold them back
43:56like oh no sorry like you've pretty much
44:00had your food for today because it's
44:02unfortunately that it's two more weeks
44:05and we want you to stay in energy
44:08balance and yeah not gain weight because
44:11mountains are coming. So [clears throat]
44:13>> it's actually can be really tough and
44:15especially now in these days that the
44:17carbohydrate intake on the bikes is just
44:19going over the roof and it there are
44:23days when you're like at the end of the
44:24day and like okay we have no dinner to
44:27give you unless other or we put you in
44:30energy surplus um and you need to eat
44:32less on the bike. Um you should have
44:34eaten less on the bike because yeah it
44:37was just too much. Um so even on like
44:40these kind of races we keep having this
44:42issue of yeah um there might be
44:45sometimes yeah not enough budget to eat
44:48what riders want to eat.
44:50>> Whoa. That's a crazy uh it's like you
44:53know different side of the same coin
44:54where it's like okay we're going to how
44:56much how much can we eat on the bike?
44:58We're going to push the limit. But
44:59there's a point where you're like well
45:00actually now your dinner is not going to
45:02be very satisfying because you ate so
45:04much. And then maybe you just don't feel
45:06as good because of that process. Like,
45:08and it's not necessarily that you can't
45:10take in more on the bike, it's that you
45:11shouldn't because you could actually
45:13gain weight from
45:14>> Yeah. overdoing. That's wild.
45:17>> One of the things is that when you have
45:18carbohydrates on the bike, you're not
45:20going to really spare uh glycogen with
45:23this carbohydrate. So, let's say that
45:25you there is a sprinter stage in a race.
45:28Um it's a 4-hour long stage and um yeah
45:32the power output might be you know
45:34amateur style uh not a professional
45:37style but they would be eating like 120
45:39grams per hour instead of like you know
45:42nutritionist says like 90 grams but you
45:44have 120 over four hours three * 4 is
45:50120 grams of carbohydrates that's for
45:52like 60 g 60 kilo rider like 2 g per
45:56kilo so it's kind of a substantial
45:57amount ount of carbohydrates. And the
46:01research shows that if you have like
46:03this many more carbohydrates on a stage
46:06that you can easily finish because we're
46:08talking about like a sprinter stage that
46:10they will just come in a bunch bunch
46:12sprint finish. Um what happens is that
46:17what happens is that you don't spare
46:19muscle glycogen, you mostly spare fat.
46:22So you just burn less fat during that
46:24ride. So at the end of the day, your
46:27glycogen stores will be equally low if
46:30you have 120 or 90 grams per hour, but
46:33budget for to eat at the dinner is way
46:36lower. So if the next day is really hard
46:39and you pretty much have a problem
46:41because you need to kind of replenish
46:43glycogen store, so you need to go in a
46:45surplus otherwise the next day the
46:47riders will just not perform. So it's
46:49kind of really tricky sometimes how to
46:51organize the nutrition around that. Um,
46:54and it's, yeah, that's why kind of
46:56nutrition is always very stressful
46:58sometimes.
46:59>> Oh, I bet. I bet it's a it's a lot to
47:02keep track of. Okay, so last thing on
47:04the deficit that I wanted to nail before
47:07we move on is uh just the reality of
47:09hunger throughout this process.
47:13It's I've had a hard time over the years
47:16of nutritionists trying to soften up
47:18this process of body fat loss because
47:22you know sometimes people are 100 pounds
47:24overweight and they just shouldn't drink
47:27four sodas a day and then they start
47:29losing weight and like this is not you
47:31know the process isn't that uh
47:34challenging from from most people's
47:35perspectives
47:37but as you get leaner like the things
47:40that you have to do it's like you have
47:41to keep dialing it in and I've never
47:44been able to go from uh let's say
47:48like low teens percentage of body fat to
47:50single-digit body fat without feeling
47:52genuinely hungry at times. And I feel
47:57like I the expectation needs to be set
48:00that people are if they're going to try
48:02and get that lean need to understand
48:04that they're going to feel hungry and
48:06that's kind of part of the process. And
48:08no matter how perfect you line up these
48:10numbers, the feeling of hunger or
48:12wanting to eat or having cravings is not
48:14going to go like you're going to
48:15experience it at some point. Uh is that
48:18out of line for me to say based off of
48:20my own experience or are these riders
48:22able to lose the fat without feeling
48:24that way?
48:26>> I think most of them are definitely
48:28hungry um at some points. But like even
48:30if you look at like the whole
48:31population, you know, they're not
48:33counting calories. You will see some
48:35people that like kind of like almost
48:37obese. That would be their natural
48:39state. They would some would be just
48:41like normal with a little bit of yeah
48:43belly fat. But then you will find some
48:46people that are completely lean uh with
48:48almost no like fat on them. Um without
48:52any effort, you know, without thinking
48:54about nutrition dayto day um they would
48:57just naturally be that way. And I think
49:00this is like similar with a rider. Some
49:02riders would come to that target body
49:04mass very easily or be there for most of
49:07the time just naturally and for many it
49:11would be a big struggle and there are
49:13riders that really struggle to get to
49:15the race body of mass. Um and for them
49:19it's kind of like counting calories,
49:21cutting things everywhere and it's just
49:24tough. Um but for some it's super easy.
49:27So I think it's like
49:30you are maybe Yeah. You may be lucky and
49:34be one of those people that can get to
49:36that weight really easily or a bit
49:38unlucky and then you need to be pretty
49:40much hungry. Yeah.
49:42>> Yeah. Well, that's the funny thing is uh
49:44like you know body types like ectomorph,
49:46messomorph.
49:48>> I think I fall in line with more
49:50messomorph where it's like I can put on
49:52muscle um but I'm not the leanest. I
49:55have ectoore friends who lit literally
49:59don't want to eat. It's like it it
50:01almost feels like it's got to be
50:04genetic, but it almost feels like a
50:05lifestyle thing too as well where they
50:08will say I just I don't want that or
50:10this. And coming from my background, I'm
50:12like why don't you just eat a pine of
50:13ice cream or like take a bowl of peanut
50:15butter and jelly and stir it together
50:17and eat it with a spoon. Like to me I'm
50:19like that's the e adding calories is the
50:21easiest thing ever. So I see other
50:24people they struggle with putting on the
50:26weight. Is that mostly uh them having
50:30that genetic body type of like a
50:32ectomorph or is that like more habits
50:34and lifestyle? Is it just a combination
50:36of both?
50:37>> I I really don't know but I would I
50:39would be thinking it's yeah kind of both
50:41both of these things. Um, and yeah,
50:44working usually the climbers are the
50:46ones that like have are just naturally
50:49super tiny and lean and then you have
50:51the sprinters that always always
50:54struggle to get to the required body
50:56mass. Well, thanks for the insight on
50:59the behind the scenes because it's
51:00definitely not easy for most people with
51:02that goal. And I think it's good to
51:04consider, you know, your actual habits
51:07and lifestyle versus like what your
51:10genetic makeup is, too. Cuz I think some
51:12people settle and they're like, "No, I'm
51:13just this way." And it's like, well,
51:15you're just that way cuz you also go to
51:17the bar every night and do that. So,
51:18it's like, is that your genetics or is
51:20that your habits? And it's just good to
51:22have that accountability. And I think
51:24people tracking their food is ultimately
51:26the most eye opening experience in
51:28regards to nutrition because it's so
51:31much accountability, you know, and you
51:33you it's so educational like you track
51:36food for a period of time and you never
51:37really look at it the same way and you
51:39also know how to make better choices for
51:41your performance. Uh is there anything
51:44that we missed around this conversation
51:45that you'd like to add to help people if
51:47they're trying to uh maintain their
51:49performance on the bike, fuel it, and
51:52still lose body fat?
51:54I mean, yeah, it's just like keeping it
51:57right, I think, and like also listening
52:00to their body in terms of like, okay,
52:02maybe today like, you know, it might be
52:05raining, you go for a ride and it's
52:07super cold and you like kind of
52:09calculate the usual way, the calories,
52:12you might want to add a little bit extra
52:15because, you know, you have no idea what
52:17happened on the bike ride. It was super
52:19cold. Um, things were not going to plan.
52:22um or it was super hot and like these
52:25all things can have an effect on
52:28metabolism I think. Uh so
52:32it's good that you count the calorie but
52:34sometimes you need to be a bit like plus
52:35minus 100 or 200. Um and that's
52:38absolutely fine from my perspective. The
52:40most important thing is that you are
52:42consistent. you know that you don't have
52:44a day when you go like 2,000 calories
52:47above your target and you just maintain
52:50this kind of like average deficit. I
52:53think that's kind of the most important
52:54thing and that's the same with the
52:55professional riders you know like they
52:57all have this put tracking ups uh but
53:01sometimes they you know it's fine if you
53:03go a little bit above the target on some
53:06days when you just feel it because the
53:08worst is that you don't recover well and
53:10then you don't perform the next day and
53:12then just becomes a vicious cycle of um
53:15yeah not feeling good because I think
53:18when you trying to lose weight it's not
53:21just about the weight you also want to
53:23feel better. So if you're not feeling
53:25better then you will just lose
53:27motivation I think. Um so I think it's
53:30really important that you kind of also
53:31feel good during your training um for
53:34the sake of yeah um maintaining the
53:36motivation and seeing the progress.
53:39>> That's that's great. And I would add
53:41that I think someone should commit to
53:43the process long enough to feel some
53:45results before they change anything.
53:48It's like let yourself feel the hard
53:50work pay off before you decide whether
53:53or not it's worth it.
53:55>> Yeah. Exactly. Because weight loss, it's
53:56not like you will see a change on the
53:59scale the next morning. It's you might
54:02see a sca change in the scale of average
54:06value the next week or in two weeks or
54:08three weeks. It's a long-term game. Um
54:11you haven't increase your fat mass in
54:16>> in like one week. It was a longterm
54:18process. So, it also a longterm process
54:20to Yeah. shed off this weight,
54:23unfortunately.
54:24>> Yeah. Yeah. That's just the reality of
54:26it. Well, you had mentioned about the
54:30deficit and maybe over fueling during
54:33rides where an athlete doesn't need it.
54:35It affects their overall calorie uh
54:38consumption throughout the day and they
54:40can't have as big of a dinner. All this.
54:41So, what it made me think of too right
54:44now a big topic are lactate gels. These
54:48is like a very recent thing that just
54:49came out uh into production for the
54:52public to like buy and use. It sounds
54:54like athletes have been using it for a
54:56year or two. I'm sure you'd have more
54:58insight on that. Is lactate a fuel
55:02source that could keep the calories
55:04lower on the bike that would still give
55:07you the same feeling of energy? Like I
55:10really don't know anything about it
55:12besides the fact that it's supposedly
55:14another fuel source outside of the
55:17pathways of carbohydrates.
55:19>> Well, I think it's a bit of a I don't
55:22know just a
55:24hype at the moment um about lactate. um
55:28lactate has been kind of part of like
55:32exercise metabolism um knowledge for the
55:35last yeah I don't know 40 years and we
55:38know that it's not a molecule or doesn't
55:42do anything bad. So lactic acid is or
55:44like lactate as not doing anything no
55:47harm. And so, for example, during
55:49carbohydrate metabolism, um, every
55:53single molecule of glucose that enters
55:56your body will very likely end up at
55:58some point being lactate into, um, so
56:02it's a basically the first part of the
56:05breaking down glucose um, and getting
56:08some ATP, so some energy um, the
56:11anorobic part um, so without requiring
56:14the oxygen um, will end up being
56:17lactate. So it's just like halfway
56:21halfus used glucose molecule or
56:24carbohydrate molecule uh which is what
56:26lactate is. So the reason why everyone
56:28is talking about lactate these days is
56:30that um during exercise and you try to
56:33eat a lot of carbohydrates
56:35um at really high intake rates talking
56:38about 120 grams per hour or even more
56:41you hit the limit of being able to
56:44absorb more carbohydrates. So more
56:47glucose and fructose because the
56:49intestinal transporter simply um there
56:52is simply not yeah enough of them to
56:55actually get all the carbohydrates into
56:57the bloodstream. Um whereas lactate on
57:00the other hand would use a different
57:02type of transporter. So lactate can be
57:04used in the body the same way as any
57:06other carbohydrates um just without the
57:08first part of metabolism. So in the
57:11muscle it will be used for as an energy
57:13source. Um [snorts] and the story goes
57:16that yeah like when you go above 120
57:18grams per hour or whatever high number
57:21of carbs adding extra lit will provide
57:24additional fuel source for during
57:26exercise. That's kind of like what
57:28they're trying to tell us or sell us. Um
57:32they have tried to do this like in the
57:3490s or even 80s to add lact to the
57:38products. Um but at the time like they
57:41always hit the uh wall by having a lot
57:44of GI issues uh with adding lactate um
57:48into the drinks gels or whatever. This
57:52seems to have improved now with the new
57:55formulations and people are not
57:56reporting as many issues. uh but the
58:00fact remains that I think there is
58:03currently no evidence a that it does
58:05improve performance and also that there
58:07is be no really physiological rationale
58:11to actually have lactate
58:13um unless you are like top of the top
58:17professional athletes when you kind of
58:19like already maximize the uptake of
58:22carbohydrates during the rides um then
58:25there might be potential for lactate But
58:29I just really don't see any performance
58:33benefits to be had. So none of the
58:35riders I work with, I would recommend
58:37using or buying lactate products at the
58:39moment.
58:41So if lactate and first off, thank you
58:43for that explanation of it. I really
58:45appreciate it. Uh if if lactate
58:48is essentially carbohydrates that are
58:50starting to be broken down, then
58:53wouldn't it kind of go through the same
58:55pathway or like wouldn't you still have
58:57the same uh caloric value of a gram of
59:00lactate? Like is it like four grams uh
59:04or four calories per gram like the same
59:06way? Uh
59:07>> yeah, I think it would be very similar
59:10or slightly lower just because of the
59:12first kind of you're missing the first
59:14um part. Um but I think it would be a
59:17pretty much the same. So it should be
59:18considered a carbohydrate. Um in that in
59:21that sense I don't know what the laws
59:23are and the nutritional labels are
59:25saying because the nutritional labels
59:26are a bit like dependent on what the law
59:29is saying in each country. I mean it's
59:31not always very clear. So I'm not sure
59:33how the law currently like treats
59:36lactate. Uh but for me it's pretty much
59:39yeah a source of a type of
59:41carbohydrates. So then if it's broken
59:44down let's say lactates [clears throat]
59:46uh like carbohydrates
59:48uh get broken down uh to glucose
59:52anorobically then to lactate is it that
59:55first step that it's bypassing which
59:57allows you your body to absorb the
59:59lactate even when the carb stores are
1:00:01full or like that pathways are full.
1:00:03>> So yeah first we need to like we have
1:00:06two types of like where the bottleneck
1:00:09for carbohydrates can be. The first
1:00:11bottleneck is in the intest in
1:00:13intestines. So that's where you have
1:00:16like different transporters for glucose
1:00:18and different transporters for fructose
1:00:20for example. And we now have like this
1:00:22you know 2:1 or 1 to 0.8 or 1:1 ratio
1:00:26whatever. So adding extra lactate would
1:00:29use different types of transporters and
1:00:31get this lactate into the bloodstream.
1:00:33But then you also have the muscle. So
1:00:35the muscle needs to uptake these
1:00:37carbohydrates when it's in already in
1:00:39the bloodstream. And one thing that we
1:00:41keep forgetting is that during high
1:00:43intensity exercise, so for example, if
1:00:45you go on a do an interval training
1:00:47session or have an attack on the climb
1:00:51um and try to follow it, you will
1:00:53produce or accumulate lactate in the
1:00:55bloodstream anyway. You know, like
1:00:57everyone talks about, oh, I have a lot
1:00:59of lactic acid in the bloodstream. So
1:01:01basically like you see high levels of
1:01:05lactate um in the bloodstream without
1:01:07any additional lactate coming from the
1:01:09performance drinks. It's just that the
1:01:11carbohydrates
1:01:13are broken down just anorobically
1:01:16because the aerobic metabolism hasn't um
1:01:19yeah hasn't been going at the the same
1:01:22rate as anorobic metabolism. So the
1:01:25reason why I'm really skeptical about
1:01:26lactate improving performance is that
1:01:29during high intensity efforts that's
1:01:30when everyone is saying that extra
1:01:33energy can become handy you're already
1:01:37having loads of lactate in your
1:01:39bloodstream. So extra lactate I just
1:01:41don't see how it can help when you
1:01:44already have like four five times or
1:01:47even 10 times normal or resting
1:01:50concentrations of the lactate in the
1:01:51bloodstream. Um so
1:01:54having like 5% more it's just not going
1:01:56to help anyone because luckily it's
1:01:59already there accumulating because it
1:02:01cannot be cleared away. Um if that makes
1:02:03sense.
1:02:04>> Oh dude that does make sense. Like
1:02:06you're the feeling of the burn that you
1:02:10associate with lactic acid or lactate is
1:02:14that
1:02:16you have an accumulation of it. like
1:02:18your body has more of it than it
1:02:19actually can process versus
1:02:22>> it's not lactate that you Yeah, it's not
1:02:24lactate that you kind of like feel. It's
1:02:27the um hydrogen ions that come alongside
1:02:31um the lactate that you kind of um feel
1:02:34but
1:02:35>> okay
1:02:35>> it's basically like out of the muscle
1:02:38you have a corransport of hydrogen ions
1:02:41and lactate one to one. So when you see
1:02:44high levels of um lactate in the
1:02:47bloodstream, you also have high levels
1:02:48of hydrogen ions and that's why you kind
1:02:50of like that's acidity. Uh but they are
1:02:53not necessarily u connected uh they are
1:02:57just associated with each with each
1:03:00other.
1:03:01Okay, that makes s I'm happy you
1:03:03clarified that. And this is probably
1:03:05sounds like a dumb thing to say to some
1:03:07people, but my thought was like, okay,
1:03:09if that's the feeling you have with
1:03:11lactate, if you drank it, do you feel
1:03:14that? You know, the hydrogen ion that
1:03:17you get that feeling that everyone
1:03:19associates with lactic acid or whatever.
1:03:22>> Yeah. I mean another thing another way
1:03:24to increase lactate values naturally is
1:03:27if you eat a um a bag of haribo or a bag
1:03:31of like proper sweets um so fructose um
1:03:35cannot be used by muscle cells. So
1:03:37fructose will first be uptaken by the
1:03:39liver and from the liver um this
1:03:42fructose will exit as glucose or even
1:03:45lactate. So some of the fructose will be
1:03:47converted to lactate and you can
1:03:50actually see higher levels of lactate um
1:03:54just by eating yeah candy or like you
1:03:57know sweets um and that's why sometimes
1:04:00when riders are doing lactate threshold
1:04:03test you want to kind of don't eat
1:04:05sweets before it because otherwise your
1:04:07resting lactate values will be elevated
1:04:10already. So there is a lot of ways on
1:04:12how lactate gets produced in the body.
1:04:14Um, so yeah, there is nothing special
1:04:17about it.
1:04:19>> Wow, that's awesome. Thanks for
1:04:21clarifying. And yeah, I think it's good
1:04:22to just acknowledge it as definitely
1:04:24this new thing. There could be some hype
1:04:26around it. Um, it kind of the the
1:04:29different fuel source thing. It reminds
1:04:31me of ketones in the last couple years a
1:04:33little bit. Um, have you had any more
1:04:36success using those or is this like
1:04:38opening up a whole can that we need to
1:04:40save for another podcast? [laughter]
1:04:42Yeah, I mean always these things come
1:04:44and go like I don't know Nomio is
1:04:47another thing that's very popular these
1:04:49days.
1:04:50>> That's right. Broccoli.
1:04:53Um
1:04:53>> I mean in ketones I mean again like
1:04:56Nomio is I think out of both of them a
1:04:58bit the most exotic one. Uh but when it
1:05:01comes to ketones again ketones have
1:05:03their role in like metabolism. Again
1:05:05they are produced naturally by the body
1:05:07the same way as or similar way as
1:05:09lactate. Um, and we know that for some
1:05:12reasons or for some things like ketone
1:05:16supplementation can make sense. I just
1:05:18don't think we have a really strong
1:05:21evidence that improves performance. Um,
1:05:23it can help in certain scenarios. Um,
1:05:26and the same with lit. I think there
1:05:28will be more and more research coming
1:05:30out, but one of the suggestions is that
1:05:33for example, lactate can suppress
1:05:35appetite. So, you know, for people that
1:05:39struggle to um yeah,
1:05:42struggle to lose body mass, but in
1:05:44talking about inductive people, drinking
1:05:47lactate um can potentially suppress
1:05:50appetite because the same thing that you
1:05:53mentioned earlier, um some people might
1:05:55struggle to eat after really hard
1:05:57session. Lactate levels are up and there
1:06:00is some suggestions that these lactate
1:06:02values are kind of telling the body, oh,
1:06:03you don't need to eat. there is plenty
1:06:05of substrate floating around in the
1:06:08bloodstream that first needs to be
1:06:09cleared away. So perhaps adding plug it
1:06:13could help from that point of view. Uh
1:06:16but that's kind of like a medical um
1:06:19territory rather than um yeah
1:06:21performance um from performance
1:06:23standpoint. I just don't see it
1:06:25improving performance. But again, like I
1:06:28can be mistaken and I'm pretty sure or
1:06:31I'm sure and I know we will have studies
1:06:34um being done as early as next year um
1:06:38that will show whether I'm wrong or not.
1:06:41So um yeah, let's see.
1:06:44>> Man, that's interesting. I mean, I I'll
1:06:46be honest with you, Tim. Like, this just
1:06:49gets me on a roll of like wanting to ask
1:06:52questions about all sorts of stuff, but
1:06:54I think that we really nailed the uh fat
1:06:58loss protocol. And I'll have some notes
1:07:01in the description to help anybody with
1:07:03that. Um, and I appreciate you answering
1:07:05some of these questions about the
1:07:06lactate gels and all the things that are
1:07:08just currently being used and talked
1:07:10about that are just different fuel
1:07:11sources. I am curious uh before I let
1:07:14you go here. What is your favorite fuel
1:07:18source? Like what's your favorite way to
1:07:19fuel a ride? What's your go-to? What are
1:07:22you recommending for people? Like your
1:07:24personal recommendation?
1:07:26>> I mean, just keep it simple. I I I kind
1:07:28of don't like to spend a lot of money um
1:07:31on the sports nutrition. So, I think
1:07:33like for most people, just getting
1:07:35something with like even table sugar can
1:07:38be good. Uh I think it can work for many
1:07:40people. Um I hate when yeah one gel
1:07:44costs I don't know how much um like
1:07:48num few dollars when it's basically just
1:07:51sugar. So I think the fueling should
1:07:53just be simple. Um my personal thing is
1:07:56that I rarely have carbohydrate drink. I
1:08:00prefer gels and when I was a um student
1:08:03I was doing my own gels, you know, just
1:08:06like getting a flask for running. Um at
1:08:10home I would make I would buy fructose
1:08:13and moltodextrin from a shop and then I
1:08:15would just mix them together with a
1:08:18little bit of water. um heat heat
1:08:22everything up so it mixes well and just
1:08:24add some I don't know um lemon juice or
1:08:28something to get some taste and actually
1:08:30do just for myself without spending a
1:08:32lot of money. Um I just don't like that
1:08:35yeah people are making money out of us
1:08:39um buying um yeah just carbohydrates or
1:08:43simple sugars.
1:08:44>> Yeah, it's understandable. I think a lot
1:08:46of it for sure is the convenience and
1:08:48why it'll always probably be a thing of
1:08:49like just having a prepackaged gel that
1:08:51you don't have to make. It's like
1:08:52ordering takeout versus cooking food at
1:08:54home, you know. Uh but then I I love
1:08:57that you do prefer gels, but that you're
1:09:00making them at home. So then if you heat
1:09:02up the glucose and malttodextrin, uh
1:09:05which I know that you can I'm sorry,
1:09:06fructose and maltodextrin, which I'm
1:09:08know that you can buy in bulk. You heat
1:09:10it up. Do you let it cool in the pot and
1:09:13then pour it in the flask? And then like
1:09:15is there another process to getting that
1:09:17to the right viscosity? Like I'm
1:09:19curious. Uh how do you how do you do is
1:09:22it just trial and error of figuring out
1:09:23the right thickness and grams of
1:09:26carbohydrate total like
1:09:29>> yeah I think
1:09:30>> take me through those steps.
1:09:31>> I think because these days I'm
1:09:34consulting for one of the sports
1:09:35nutrition companies so I get the
1:09:36product. I'm lucky enough. But um when I
1:09:40was kind of a student and I was trying
1:09:42to uh make it as easy or yeah, as cheap
1:09:45as possible, I was just like it was
1:09:48trial and error. And then once I got a
1:09:50recipe, I can't remember what it was.
1:09:52Was it three parts of carbohydrates and
1:09:56one part of water? Um I was even playing
1:09:59with some jelling um agents. Um so if
1:10:03you like look at the package what's um
1:10:06energy gels contain you actually can buy
1:10:08most of these ingredients and then you
1:10:10can just play around with them like
1:10:12citric acid you can buy it in a grocery
1:10:14store and then you add it to reduce the
1:10:16sweetness you can add some santan gum
1:10:19which is something that would make it
1:10:20more gel like um you can um add I don't
1:10:25know um citric um sorry um sodium
1:10:29citrate to get the sodium levels up or
1:10:32just table salt. So you have a lot of to
1:10:34play around and also the flavors um you
1:10:38have these kind of calorie free
1:10:41caloriefree
1:10:42um drops for flavoring usually from
1:10:45these protein brands um that you can use
1:10:49for flavor. So it's you can play around
1:10:52but otherwise I often just tell people
1:10:55they can just have Haribo. Um so
1:10:59>> that also works. That's great advice.
1:11:02Well, hey, thanks a lot for your time
1:11:04today and just uh really clarifying this
1:11:06topic. It's obviously a challenging one
1:11:08for a lot of people. So, I think it's
1:11:10going to help a lot of people. Now, if
1:11:12anyone wants to follow more of the
1:11:13content you're doing, I know you do
1:11:15quite a few podcasts. Um I follow you on
1:11:17Instagram. Is there a good place for
1:11:19someone to uh keep up with you?
1:11:21>> Yeah, Instagram. Although I used to be
1:11:24way more regular in posting, these days
1:11:26I'm a bit like yes and no. And then
1:11:28yeah, but Instagram I think is the best.
1:11:30Um,
1:11:32>> perfect. Yeah, I'll put that link in the
1:11:33description and hope to chat with you
1:11:35again soon. Thanks again.
1:11:36>> Thanks.
1:11:37>> Thank you so much for listening to this
1:11:38episode of the Dialed Health podcast. I
1:11:40really hope it adds some value to your
1:11:42life and it hopefully answers some
1:11:43questions around the topic of fat loss
1:11:46and allows you to implement this way
1:11:48more successfully. Now, if you did enjoy
1:11:50the episode, please make sure that you
1:11:51are subscribed to the YouTube channel.
1:11:53Drop a comment and a thumbs up and let
1:11:55me know that you're watching. You can
1:11:57also leave a five-star review on Apple
1:11:59or Spotify with something simple, just
1:12:01anything positive about the podcast.
1:12:03Don't overthink it. Your review really
1:12:04does go a long way. And finally, the
1:12:06best way you could support Dialed Health
1:12:08is by going to dial.com and starting a
1:12:11subscription today. All of my strength
1:12:13training programs are going to be built
1:12:15into your Training Peaks calendar. And
1:12:17that subscription covers your Training
1:12:19Peaks premium, which comes along with
1:12:20things like Training Peaks virtual and
1:12:22that one beautiful calendar with all of
1:12:24your strength training and riding. like
1:12:26I've always dreamed of. It's so amazing.
1:12:28So, thank you for your support. Really
1:12:30appreciate it.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Fat Loss Protocol For Cyclists With Dr. Tim Podlogar | Dialed Health Podcast #230 by DIALED HEALTH, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 12,671 words across 1,784 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.