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Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen testifies before the U.S. Senate — Transcript

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0:00and
0:01the ranking member who is here senator
0:03wicker as well as our
0:06chairwoman uh maria cantwell senator
0:08cantwell i'm sure will be here shortly
0:11uh most important i'd like to thank our
0:14witness
0:15francis haugen
0:17for being here and
0:19the two council who are representing her
0:22today and
0:24i want to give you my heartfelt
0:26gratitude for your courage
0:29and strength in coming forward as you
0:31have done standing up to one of the most
0:34powerful implacable corporate giants in
0:36the history of the world without
0:40any exaggeration
0:41you have a
0:42compelling credible voice which we've
0:45heard already
0:47but you are not here
0:50alone
0:51you're armed with documents and evidence
0:54and you speak volumes as they do about
0:59how facebook
1:00has put profits ahead of people
1:05among other revelations the information
1:06that you have provided to congress
1:10is powerful proof that facebook knew
1:14its products were harming teenagers
1:17facebook exploited teens using powerful
1:20algorithms
1:22that amplified their insecurities and
1:24abuses through what it found
1:27was an addict's narrative
1:30there is a question
1:33which i hope you will discuss as to
1:35whether
1:36there is such a thing as a safe
1:38algorithm
1:40facebook saw teens creating secret
1:43accounts
1:45that are often hidden from their parents
1:49as unique value
1:52proposition
1:53in their words a unique value
1:55proposition a way to drive up numbers
1:57for advertisers
1:59and shareholders at the expense of
2:01safety
2:03and it doubled down on targeting
2:05children pushing products on pre-teens
2:09not just teens but pre-teens
2:12that it knows are harmful to our kids
2:14mental health and well-being
2:16instead of telling parents
2:18facebook concealed the facts it sought
2:20to stonewall and block this information
2:23from becoming public including to this
2:25committee
2:26when senator blackburn and i
2:28specifically asked
2:30the company
2:32and still even now
2:34as of just last thursday when a facebook
2:37witness came for this committee it has
2:39refused
2:40disclosure or even to tell us when it
2:42might decide
2:44whether to disclose additional documents
2:47and they've continued their tactics even
2:51after they knew the destruction it
2:54caused
2:55it isn't just that they made money
2:58from these practices but they continued
3:01to profit from them
3:03their profit was more important than the
3:06pain that they caused
3:09last thursday the message from ms
3:11antigone davis facebook's global head of
3:14safety was simple
3:16quote this research is not a bombshell
3:20end quote
3:21and she repeated the line
3:23not a bombshell
3:26well
3:27this research is
3:29the very definition of a bombshell
3:32facebook and big tech are facing a big
3:36tobacco omen
3:38a moment of reckoning
3:40the parallel is striking
3:42i sued big tobacco as connecticut's
3:44attorney general i helped to lead
3:46the states in that legal action and i
3:49remember very very well
3:52the moment
3:53in the course of our litigation when we
3:56learned of those files that
3:58showed
4:00not only that big tobacco knew that its
4:02product caused cancer
4:04but that they had done the research they
4:07concealed the files
4:09and
4:11now we knew and the world knew and big
4:14tech now faces
4:15that big tobacco
4:17jaw-dropping moment of truth it is
4:21documented proof that facebook knows its
4:24products can be addictive and toxic
4:27to children
4:28and it's not just that they made money
4:30again it's that
4:33they value their profit
4:35more
4:37than the pain that they cause to
4:39children and their families
4:42the damage to self-interest and
4:44self-worth
4:46inflicted by facebook today
4:49will haunt a generation
4:53feelings of inadequacy and insecurity
4:56rejection
4:57and self-hatred
4:59will impact
5:02this generation for years to come
5:05our children
5:06are the ones who are victims teens today
5:10looking at themselves in the mirror
5:13feel doubt and insecurity
5:18mark zuckerberg ought to be looking at
5:20himself in the mirror today
5:23and yet rather than taking
5:24responsibility
5:26and showing leadership
5:29mr zuckerberg is going sailing
5:33his new modus operandi no apologies no
5:36admission
5:37no action nothing to see here
5:41mark zuckerberg you need to come before
5:42this committee you need to explain
5:45to
5:46francis haugen
5:48to us to the world
5:50and to the parents of america
5:55what you were doing and why you did it
5:57instagram's business model is pretty
5:59straightforward more eyeballs more
6:01dollars everything facebook does
6:04is to add more users and keep them on
6:07their apps for longer
6:09in order to hook us instagram uses our
6:12private information
6:14to precisely target us
6:17with content and
6:18recommendations assessing that
6:22what will provoke a reaction
6:24will keep us scrolling
6:27far too often these recommendations
6:29encourage our most destructive and
6:32dangerous
6:33behaviors
6:34as we showed on thursday
6:37we created a fake account my office and
6:40i did as a teen interested in extreme
6:43dieting
6:44and eating disorders
6:46instagram latched on to that teenager's
6:50initial insecurities it then pushed more
6:52content and recommendations
6:54glorifying eating disorders
6:58that's how instagram's algorithms
7:02can push teens into darker and darker
7:05places facebook's own researchers
7:08called it instagram's quote perfect
7:12storm
7:14exacerbating
7:15downward spirals
7:17facebook as you have put it is how good
7:20so powerfully maximizes profits and
7:24ignores pain
7:26facebook's failure to acknowledge and to
7:28act makes it morally bankrupt
7:31again and again facebook rejected
7:33reforms recommended by its own
7:35researchers
7:36last week miss davis said
7:39quote we're looking at end quote
7:42no specific plans no
7:44commitments only vague platitude
7:49these documents that you have revealed
7:52provided this company with a blueprint
7:54for reform provided specific
7:56recommendation
7:58that could have made
8:00facebook
8:01and instagram safer the company
8:03repeatedly ignored those recommendations
8:06from its own
8:09researchers
8:10that would have made
8:12facebook and instagram safer
8:15faith facebook researchers have
8:17suggested
8:19changing their recommendations
8:21to stop promoting accounts known to
8:24encourage dangerous body
8:27comparison
8:30instead of making meaningful changes
8:32facebook simply pays lip service
8:35and
8:36if they won't act
8:39and if big tech won't act
8:41congress has to intervene
8:44privacy protection is long overdue
8:47senator markey and i have introduced the
8:49kids act which would ban addictive
8:51tactics that facebook uses to exploit
8:54children parents deserve better tools
8:57to protect their children
9:00i'm also a firm supporter of reforming
9:02section 230.
9:04we should consider narrowing this
9:05sweeping immunity when platforms
9:08algorithms
9:09amplify illegal conduct you've commented
9:12on this in your testimony and perhaps
9:14you'll expand on it
9:16we have also heard compelling
9:18recommendations about requiring
9:19disclosures of research
9:21and independent reviews of these
9:23platforms algorithms and i plan to
9:26pursue these ideas
9:28the securities and exchange commission
9:30should investigate
9:32your
9:33intentions and claims ms haugen
9:37and so should the federal trade
9:39commission
9:40facebook appears to have misled the
9:43public
9:44and investors and if that's correct it
9:46ought to face real penalties as a result
9:49of that misleading and deceptive
9:52misrepresentation
9:58i want to thank all my colleagues who
10:00are here today because
10:02what we have is a
10:04bipartisan congressional roadmap for
10:07reform
10:08that will safeguard and protect children
10:10from big tech
10:12that will be a focus of our subcommittee
10:15moving forward and it will continue
10:17continue to be bipartisan
10:20and finally i'll just end on this note
10:23in the past weeks and days parents have
10:25contacted me
10:27with their stories heartbreaking
10:30and spine chilling stories
10:33about children pushed into eating
10:35disorders
10:37bullying online
10:39self-injury of the most
10:43disturbing kind
10:45and sometimes even taking their lives
10:47because of social media
10:50parents are holding facebook accountable
10:52because of your bravery
10:54this happened
10:56and we need to hold accountable facebook
10:59and all big ted
11:00as well again my thanks to you
11:04i am going to enter into the record a
11:06letter from 52 state attorneys general
11:09and from two members
11:11of the youth advisory board of sandy
11:14hook
11:14promise as long as there's no objection
11:17and i will now turn to the ranking
11:19member center blackburn
11:21thank you mr chairman and thank you for
11:23entering that letter in the record that
11:26we have from our state's attorneys
11:28general good morning to everyone it is
11:31nice to see people in this hearing
11:34room and uh to be here for the hearing
11:37today miss haugen we thank you
11:39for your appearance before us today and
11:42for giving the opportunity not only for
11:45congress but for uh for the american
11:47people
11:48to hear from you in this setting and we
11:52appreciate that mr chairman i think also
11:55thanks to you and your staff
11:57uh that have worked with our team to
11:59make certain that we had
12:01this hearing in this opportunity uh
12:04today so that we can get more insight
12:08into what facebook is actually doing
12:11as they invade the privacy not only of
12:14adults but of children and look at the
12:18ways that they are in violation of the
12:20children's online privacy protection act
12:23which is federal law
12:25and
12:26looking at how they are evading that law
12:30and working around it and as the
12:32chairman said
12:34a privacy and online privacy passing a
12:38federal
12:39privacy standard has been long in the
12:42works i filed my first
12:44privacy bill when i was in the house
12:47back in 2012
12:49and i think that it will be this
12:51congress and this subcommittee that is
12:54going to lead the way to online privacy
12:57data security section 230 reforms
13:00and of course senator klobuchar always
13:03wants to talk about antitrust and i have
13:06to give a nod senator markey is down
13:08there
13:09when we were in the house we were
13:11probably two of the only ones who were
13:14talking about the need to have a federal
13:17privacy
13:19standard now as the chairman mentioned
13:22last week
13:23we heard from miss davis who had global
13:28safety for facebook and it was
13:31surprising
13:32to us that what she tried to do was to
13:36minimize the information that was in
13:39these documents to minimize the research
13:42and to minimize the knowledge that
13:46facebook had at one point i even
13:49reminded her the research was not
13:51third-party research
13:54the research was there facebook's
13:58internal
13:59research
14:01so they knew
14:03what they were doing they knew where the
14:06violations were
14:08and they
14:10know
14:11they
14:12are
14:12guilty
14:14they know this
14:15their research tells them this
14:18um
14:19last week in advance of our hearing
14:22facebook released two studies and said
14:25that the wall street journal was all
14:27wrong they had just gotten it wrong
14:31as if the wall street journal did not
14:33know how to read
14:35these documents and how to work through
14:38this research
14:41having seen the data that you've
14:44presented and the other studies that
14:46facebook did not
14:49publicly share
14:51i feel pretty confident that it's
14:53facebook who has done the
14:55misrepresenting
14:57to this committee here are some of the
14:59numbers that facebook chose not to share
15:02and mr chairman i think it's important
15:05that we look at these as we talk about
15:08the setting for this hearing what we
15:11learned last week what you and i have
15:13been learning over the past three years
15:15about big tech and facebook and here you
15:18go 66 percent of teen girls on instagram
15:21and 40 percent of teen boys
15:24experience negative social comparisons
15:28this is facebook's research 52 of teen
15:33girls who experienced negative social
15:36comparison on instagram said it was
15:39caused by images related to beauty
15:42social comparison is worse on instagram
15:46because it is perceived as real life but
15:50based on celebrity standards social
15:53comparison mimics the grief cycle and
15:56includes a downward emotional spiral
15:59encompassing a range of emotions from
16:01jealousy to self-proclaimed
16:04body dysmorphia
16:06facebook addiction which facebook calls
16:10conveniently
16:11problematic use
16:14is most severe in teens peaking at age
16:1714.
16:19here's what else we know facebook is not
16:23interested in making significant changes
16:26to improve kids safety on their
16:28platforms at least
16:30not when that would result in losing
16:32eyeballs on post
16:34or
16:35decreasing their ad revenues in fact
16:39facebook is running scared
16:42as they know that in their own words
16:45young adults are less active and less
16:47engaged on facebook and that they are
16:50running out of teams to add to instagram
16:53so teams are looking at other platforms
16:56like tick tock and facebook is only
16:58making those changes that add to its
17:01users numbers and ultimately it's
17:05profits
17:06follow the money
17:08so what are these changes
17:10allowing users to create multiple
17:13accounts that facebook does not delete
17:16and encouraging teens to create second
17:19accounts they can hide from their
17:21parents they are also studying younger
17:24and younger children as young as eight
17:27so that they can market to them and
17:29while miss davis says that kids below 13
17:33are not allowed on facebook or instagram
17:36we know that they are
17:38because she told us
17:40that they recently had deleted 600 000
17:44accounts from children under age 13.
17:48so how do you get that many underage
17:51accounts
17:52if you aren't turning a blind eye to
17:55them in the first place
17:58and then in order to try to clean it up
18:00you go to delete it and then you say oh
18:02by the way we just in the last month
18:05deleted
18:06600
18:08000
18:09underage accounts
18:11and speaking of turning a blind eye
18:13facebook turns a blind eye to user
18:16privacy
18:18news broke yesterday the the private
18:20data of over 1.5 billion that's right
18:241.5 billion facebook users is being
18:28sold
18:30on a hacking
18:31forum
18:32that's its biggest data breach to date
18:36examples like this underscore my strong
18:38concerns about facebook collecting the
18:41data of kids and teens and what they are
18:43doing with it facebook also turns a
18:46blind eye toward blatant human
18:49exploitation
18:50taking place on its platform trafficking
18:53forced labor cartels the worst possible
18:56things one can imagine
18:59big tech companies have gotten away with
19:02abusing consumers for too long
19:04it is clear that facebook prioritizes
19:07profit over the well-being of children
19:11and all users so as a mother and a
19:15grandmother
19:17this is an issue that is of particular
19:20concern to me
19:22so we thank you for being here today
19:24miss haugen and
19:26we look forward to getting to the truth
19:29about what facebook is doing with users
19:31data
19:33and how they are abusing their
19:36privacy and how they show a lack of
19:39respect for the individuals that are on
19:42their network we look forward to the
19:44testimony thank you mr chairman thanks
19:46senator black
19:48thank you senator blackman i don't know
19:50whether the ranking member would like to
19:52make it if you don't mind
19:54thank you um
19:56chairman blumenthal and and i will just
19:58take a moment or two
20:00uh and and i do appreciate
20:02being able to to speak
20:05as ranking member of the full committee
20:06this this ms hogan this is a this is a
20:09subcommittee hearing you see some vacant
20:11seats uh there's pretty good attendance
20:13for a subcommittee uh there are also a
20:15lot of things going on so people will be
20:17coming and going but i'm i'm willing to
20:19predict
20:20that this will have almost 100 percent
20:23attendance
20:24by members of the subcommittee because
20:26of the importance of this subject matter
20:28so thanks for coming forward
20:30to share concerns about facebook's
20:33business practices
20:34particularly with respect to children
20:36and teens and of course that is
20:39the the main topic of our the title of
20:43our hearing today protecting kids online
20:47the recent relevant of revelations about
20:50facebook's mental health effects on
20:52children
20:53and its plan to target younger audiences
20:56are indeed disturbing
20:59um and i think you're going to see a lot
21:01of bipartisan concern
21:03about this today and
21:05in future hearings
21:07they just they show how urgent it is for
21:10congress
21:12to act against powerful tech companies
21:16on behalf of children
21:18and the broader public
21:20and i say powerful tech companies they
21:22are
21:23uh possession possessive of immense
21:27immense power
21:29their product
21:30is addictive
21:32and people on both sides of this diocese
21:35are concerned about this
21:37i talked to an opinion maker
21:40just down the hall
21:41a few moments before this hearing this
21:43person said
21:45the
21:46tech gods
21:48have been
21:49demystified now and i think this hearing
21:53today mr chair
21:55is a part of the process of demystifying
22:00big tech
22:03the children of america are hooked on
22:06their product
22:08it is often destructive
22:10and harmful and there is a cynical
22:12knowledge on behalf of the leadership of
22:15these big tech companies that that is
22:17true
22:18ms hogan i i hope you will have a chance
22:22to talk about your work experience at
22:24facebook
22:26and perhaps compare it to other social
22:28media companies i also look forward to
22:30hearing your thoughts on how this
22:32committee and how this congress can
22:35ensure greater accountability
22:38and transparency especially with regard
22:41to children so thank you mr chairman and
22:44thank you ms hogan for being here today
22:47thanks senator wicker our witness this
22:49morning is francis haugen
22:51she was the lead product manager on
22:54facebook's civic misinformation team she
22:56holds a degree
22:58in electrical and computer engineering
23:00from olin college and an mba from
23:03harvard
23:05she made the courageous decision as all
23:08of us here and many others around the
23:10world know to leave
23:12facebook
23:13and reveal the terrible truths about the
23:15company
23:17she learned during her
23:19tenure there
23:20and uh i think we
23:23are all in agreement here in expressing
23:25our gratitude and our admiration for
23:28your bravery and coming forward thank
23:29you miss haugen
23:30please proceed
23:39good afternoon chairman blumenthal
23:41ranking member blackburn and members of
23:43the subcommittee
23:45thank you for the opportunity to appear
23:47before you
23:48my name is frances haugen
23:50i used to work at facebook
23:52i joined facebook because i think
23:55facebook has the potential to bring out
23:56the best in us
23:59but i'm here today because i believe
24:00facebook's products harm children stoke
24:03division and weaken our democracy
24:06the company's leadership knows how to
24:08make facebook and instagram safer but
24:10won't make the necessary changes because
24:12they have put their astronomical profits
24:14before people
24:16congressional action is needed
24:19they won't solve this crisis without
24:21your help
24:23yesterday we saw facebook get taken off
24:25the internet
24:26i don't know why i went down but i know
24:28that for more than five hours facebook
24:31wasn't used to deepen divides
24:33destabilize democracies and make young
24:36girls and women feel bad about their
24:38bodies
24:39it also means that millions of small
24:41businesses weren't able to reach
24:43potential customers
24:44and countless photos of new babies
24:46weren't joyously celebrated by family
24:48and friends around the world
24:50i believe
24:52in the potential of facebook
24:54we can have social media we enjoy
24:57that connects us
24:58without tearing or democr a part of
25:00democracy putting our children in danger
25:03and sowing ethnic violence around the
25:04world
25:06we can do better
25:09i have worked as a product manager at
25:10large tech companies since 2006
25:13including google pinterest yelp and
25:15facebook
25:17my job has largely focused on
25:18algorithmic products like google plus
25:20search
25:21and recommendation systems like the one
25:23that powers the facebook news feed
25:25having worked on four different types of
25:27social networks
25:28i understand how complex and nuanced
25:31these problems are
25:33however
25:34the choices being made inside of
25:36facebook are disastrous
25:38for our children for our public safety
25:41for our privacy and for our democracy
25:44and that is why we must demand facebook
25:46make changes
25:48during my time at facebook first working
25:50as the lead product manager for civic
25:52misinformation and later on counter
25:54espionage i saw facebook repeatedly
25:57encounter conflicts between its own
25:59profits and our safety
26:01facebook consistently resolved these
26:03conflicts in favor of its own profits
26:06the result has been more division more
26:08harm more lies more threats and more
26:12combat
26:13in some cases this is this dangerous
26:15online talk has led to actual violence
26:18that harms and even kills people
26:20this is not simply a matter of certain
26:23social media users being angry or
26:25unstable
26:26or about one side being radicalized
26:28against the other
26:29it is about facebook choosing to grow at
26:32all costs becoming an almost trillion
26:34dollar company by buying its profits
26:37with our safety
26:40during my time at facebook i came to
26:41realize a devastating truth
26:44almost no one outside of facebook knows
26:46what happens inside of facebook
26:48the company intentionally hides vital
26:51information from the public from the us
26:53government and from governments around
26:54the world
26:55the documents i have provided to
26:57congress prove that facebook has
26:59repeatedly misled the public
27:01about what its own research reveals
27:03about the safety of children
27:05the efficacy of its artificial
27:06intelligence systems and its role in
27:09spreading divisive and extreme messages
27:12i came forward because i believe that
27:13every human being
27:15deserves the dignity of the truth
27:18the severity of this crisis demands that
27:20we break out of our previous regulatory
27:22frames
27:23facebook wants to trick you into
27:25thinking that privacy protections or
27:27changes to section 230 alone will be
27:29sufficient
27:31while important these will not get to
27:33the core of the issue which is that no
27:35one truly understands the destructive
27:37choices made by facebook
27:39except facebook
27:41we can afford nothing less than full
27:43transparency
27:45as long as facebook is operating in the
27:46shadows hiding its research from public
27:49scrutiny it is unaccountable
27:52until the incentives change
27:54facebook will not change
27:58left alone facebook will continue to
28:00make choices that go against the common
28:02good
28:03our common good
28:05when we realized big tobacco was hiding
28:07the harms it caused the government took
28:09action
28:10when we figured out cars were safer with
28:12seat belts the government took
28:14action and when our government learned
28:16that opioids were taking lives the
28:19government took action
28:20i implore you to do the same here
28:23today facebook shapes our perception of
28:25the world by choosing the information we
28:27see
28:28even those who don't use facebook are
28:30impacted by the majority who do
28:32a company with such frightening
28:34influence over so many people
28:36over their deepest thoughts feelings and
28:38behavior needs real oversight
28:41but facebook's closed design
28:44means it has no real oversight
28:47only facebook knows how it personalizes
28:49your feed for you
28:51at other large tech companies like
28:53google
28:54any independent researcher can download
28:56from the internet the company's search
28:58results and write papers about what they
29:00find
29:01and they do
29:03but facebook hides behind walls that
29:05keeps researchers and regulators from
29:06understanding the true dynamics of their
29:08system
29:09facebook will tell you privacy means
29:12they can't give you data
29:13this is not true
29:15when tobacco companies claimed that
29:18filtered cigarettes were safer for
29:20consumers
29:21scientists could independently
29:23invalidate these marketing messages
29:26and confirm that in fact they posed a
29:28greater threat to human health
29:30the public cannot do the same with
29:32facebook we are given no other option
29:34than to take their marketing messages on
29:36blind faith
29:38not only does the company hide most of
29:40its own data
29:42my disclosure has proved that when
29:43facebook is directly asked questions as
29:46important as how do you impact the
29:48health and safety of our children
29:51they mislead
29:53and they
29:56they choose to mislead and misdirect
29:58facebook has not earned our blind faith
30:02this inability to see into facebook's
30:04actual systems and confirm how they work
30:06is communicated it and work as
30:08and confirm that they work as
30:10communicated is like the department of
30:12transportation regulating cars
30:14by only watching them drive down the
30:16highway
30:17today no regulator has a menu of
30:19solutions for how to fix facebook
30:21because facebook didn't want them to
30:22know enough about what's causing the
30:24problems
30:25otherwise they wouldn't otherwise there
30:27wouldn't have been need for a
30:28whistleblower
30:30how is the public supposed to assess if
30:32facebook is resolving conflicts of
30:34interest in a way that is aligned with
30:35the public good if the public has no
30:38visibility into how facebook operates
30:40this must change
30:43facebook wants you to believe that the
30:44problems we're talking about are
30:46unsolvable
30:48they want you to believe in false
30:50choices
30:51they want you to believe that you must
30:52choose between a facebook full of
30:54divisive and extreme content or losing
30:57one of the most important values our
30:59country was founded upon
31:01free speech
31:03that you must choose between public
31:04oversight of facebook's choices and your
31:07personal privacy
31:08that to be able to share fun photos of
31:10your kids with old friends you must also
31:13be inundated with anger driven virality
31:17they want you to believe that this is
31:18just part of the deal
31:21i am here today to tell you that's not
31:24true
31:25these problems
31:27are solvable
31:29a safer
31:30free speech respecting
31:32more enjoyable social media is possible
31:35but there is one thing that i hope
31:37everyone takes away from these
31:38disclosures it is that facebook can
31:40change but is clearly not going to do so
31:43on its own
31:45my fears that without action divisive
31:47and extremist behaviors we see today are
31:49only the beginning
31:51what we saw in myanmar and are now seen
31:53in ethiopia are only the opening
31:56chapters of a story so terrifying no one
31:59wants to read the end of it
32:02congress can change the rules that
32:04facebook plays by and stop the many
32:06harms it is now causing
32:08we now know the truth about facebook's
32:10destructive impact
32:13i really appreciate the seriousness
32:15which the members of congress and the
32:17securities and exchange commission are
32:18approaching these issues
32:20i came forward at great personal risk
32:24because i believe we still have time to
32:26act but we must act now
32:29i'm asking you our elective
32:31representatives to act
32:32thank you
32:35thank you ms haugen thank you for taking
32:37that personal risk and we will do
32:40anything and everything
32:41to protect
32:43and stop any retaliation against you in
32:45any legal action
32:47that the company may bring to bear or
32:50anyone else and we've made that i think
32:52very clear
32:53in the course of these proceedings
32:58i
32:58want to ask you about this idea of
33:00disclosure you've talked about
33:02uh
33:04looking
33:05in effect at a car going down the road
33:07and we're going to five minute rounds of
33:10questions maybe a second round if you're
33:12willing to do it
33:15we're here today to look under the hood
33:19and that's what we need to do more in
33:21august senator blackburn and i wrote to
33:24mark zuckerberg and we asked him pretty
33:26straightforward questions about how the
33:28company
33:30works and safeguards children and teens
33:33on instagram facebook dogs
33:37duff sidetracked
33:39in effect misled us
33:41uh so i'm going to ask you a few
33:43straight forward questions to break down
33:47some of what you have said and
33:49if you can answer them yes or no that
33:51would be great has facebook's research
33:55its own research ever found
33:57that its platforms can have a negative
33:59effect
34:00on children and teens mental health or
34:03well-being
34:06many of facebook's internal research
34:08reports indicate that uh facebook has a
34:11serious negative harm on a
34:13non-significant not a significant
34:15portion of teenagers and and younger and
34:18children
34:19and has facebook ever offered features
34:22that it knew had a negative effect
34:26on children's and teens mental health
34:29facebook knows that it's amplification
34:32algorithms things like engagement based
34:34ranking on instagram can lead children
34:36from very innocuous topics like healthy
34:39recipes i think all of us can eat a
34:40little more healthy
34:42all the way from just something innocent
34:44like healthy recipes to anorexia
34:47promoting content over a very short
34:49period of time and has facebook ever
34:52found again in its research that kids
34:55show sign
34:56of addiction on instagram
34:59facebook has studied a pattern that they
35:01call problematic use what we might more
35:04commonly call addiction
35:06it has a very high bar for what it
35:08believes it is it says you you
35:10self-identify that you don't have
35:11control over your usage and that it is
35:14materially harming your health your
35:15schoolwork or your your physical health
35:19five to six percent of
35:20fourteen-year-olds have the
35:21self-awareness to admit both those
35:23questions it is likely that far more
35:26than five to six percent of
35:28fourteen-year-olds are lit are even are
35:30addicted to instagram
35:33last thursday uh my colleagues and i
35:36asked ms davis who was representing
35:38facebook
35:39about how the decision would be made
35:42whether to pause permanently instagram
35:46for kids
35:48and she said quote there's no one person
35:50who makes a decision like that
35:52we think about it that
35:55collaboratively
35:57it's as though she couldn't mention mark
35:59zuckerberg's name
36:01isn't he the one who will be making this
36:03decision from your experience in the
36:05company
36:06mark holds a very unique role in on the
36:09tech industry in that he holds uh over
36:1255 of all the voting shares for facebook
36:16um there are no similarly powerful
36:17companies that are as
36:19unilaterally controlled um and in the
36:22end the buck stops with mark there's no
36:24one currently holding mark accountable
36:26but himself and mark zuckerberg in
36:28effect is the algorithm designer in
36:31chief correct
36:33um
36:34i received an mba from harvard and they
36:37emphasized to us that we are responsible
36:39for the organizations that we build
36:42mark has built an organization that is
36:44very metrics driven that isn't it is
36:46intended to be flat there is no
36:48unilateral responsibility the metrics
36:50make the decision unfortunately that
36:53itself is a decision
36:55and in the end if he is the ceo and the
36:57chairman of facebook he is responsible
36:59for those decisions
37:01the buck stops with him the buck stops
37:03with him
37:04uh
37:05and speaking of the buck stopping uh
37:09you have
37:10said that
37:12facebook should declare moral bankruptcy
37:15i agree
37:16i think it's its actions
37:18and its failure to acknowledge its
37:20responsibility
37:23indicate moral bankruptcy there is a
37:25cycle occurring inside the company where
37:27facebook has struggled for a long time
37:29to recruit and retain the number of
37:31employees it needs to tackle the large
37:33scope of projects that is chosen to take
37:36on
37:37facebook is stuck in a cycle where
37:39it struggles to struggles to hire
37:42that causes it to understaff projects
37:44which causes scandals which then makes
37:47it harder to hire
37:48part of why facebook needs to come out
37:50and say we did something wrong we made
37:52some choices that we regret is the only
37:54way we can move forward and heal
37:57facebook is we first have to admit the
37:58truth
38:00like the way we'll have reconciliation
38:02and we can move forward is by first
38:03being honest and declaring moral
38:05bankruptcy being honest and
38:07acknowledging that facebook has caused
38:10an aggravated a lot of pain simply make
38:12more money
38:14and it has profited off
38:16spreading disinformation and
38:18misinformation
38:20and sowing hate
38:22faint facebook's
38:24uh answers to facebook's destructive
38:26impact always seems to be
38:29more facebook we need more facebook
38:31which means more pain
38:33and more money for facebook
38:35would you agree
38:38i don't think at any point facebook set
38:40out to make a destructive platform i
38:42think it is a challenge of that facebook
38:46has set up an organization
38:47where the parts of the organization
38:49responsible for growing and expanding
38:50the organization are separate and not
38:54not regularly cross-pollinated with the
38:55parts of the company that focus on the
38:57harms that the company is causing and as
38:59a result regularly integrity actions
39:02projects that were hard fought by the
39:04teams trying to keep us safe are undone
39:07by new growth projects that counteract
39:10those same remedies
39:12so i do think it's a thing of there are
39:14organizational problems that need
39:16oversight and facebook needs help in
39:18order to move forward to a more healthy
39:20place
39:21and whether it's teens bullied into
39:24suicidal thoughts
39:27or the genocide of ethnic minorities in
39:31myanmar
39:32or fanning the flames of division
39:35within our own country or in europe
39:38they are ultimately responsible for the
39:42immorality
39:43of the pain that's caused
39:46facebook needs to take responsibility
39:48for the consequences of its choices
39:50um it needs to be willing to accept
39:52small trade-offs on profit and i think i
39:55think just that act of being able to
39:57admit that it's a mixed bag is important
39:59and i think what we saw from antigone
40:01last week is an example of the kind of
40:03behavior we need to support facebook and
40:06growing out of which is instead of just
40:08focusing on all the good they do
40:10admit they have responsibilities to also
40:12remedy the harm
40:14but mark zuckerberg's new policy is
40:17no apologies
40:19no admissions no acknowledgement
40:23nothing to see here
40:25we're going to deflect it and go sailing
40:28i turn to the ranking member
40:31thank you mr chairman thank you for your
40:33testimony uh i want to stay with ms
40:36davis in some of her comments because i
40:39had asked her last week about the
40:42underage users
40:44and she had made the comment i'm going
40:47to quote from her testimony if we find
40:49an account of someone who's under 13 we
40:52remove them in the last three months we
40:55removed 600 000 accounts of under 13
40:58euros end quote
41:00and i have to tell you
41:02it seems to me that there's a problem if
41:05you have 600
41:08000
41:09accounts from children who ought not to
41:12be there in the first place
41:14so what did mark zuckerberg know about
41:17facebook's plans to bring kids on
41:20as new users and advertise to them
41:25there are reports within facebook that
41:28show cohort analyses where they examine
41:31out what ages do people join facebook
41:33and instagram
41:35and based on those cohort analyses
41:38so
41:39facebook likes to say children lie
41:41about their ages to get onto the
41:43platform
41:44the reality is enough kids tell the
41:46truth that you can work backwards to
41:49figure out what are approximately the
41:51real ages of anyone who's on the
41:52platform
41:54when facebook does cohort analyses and
41:56looks back retrospectively
41:58and discovers things like you know up to
42:0110 to 15 percent of even 10 year olds in
42:03a given cohort may be on facebook or
42:05instagram
42:06um okay so this is why adam missouri
42:10who's the ceo of instagram
42:13would have replied to jojo siwa when she
42:16said to him oh i've been on instagram
42:18since i was eight he said he didn't want
42:21to know that
42:22so it would be for this reason correct
42:25um
42:27a pattern of behavior that i saw at
42:29facebook was that often problems were
42:32so understaffed that there was a
42:35kind of an implicit discouragement from
42:37having better detection systems so for
42:39example i worked my last team at
42:41facebook was on the counter espionage
42:43team within the threat intelligence work
42:45and at any given time our team could
42:47only handle a third of the cases that we
42:49knew about
42:51we knew that if we built even a basic
42:53detector we would likely have many more
42:55cases okay then similarly
42:58yeah let me ask you this
43:00so you look at the way that they have
43:04the data but they're choosing to keep
43:07that data and advertise from it right
43:10sell it to third parties so what does
43:13facebook do you've got these six hundred
43:15thousand accounts
43:17that ought not to be on there
43:20anymore
43:21and right
43:23but then you delete those accounts but
43:26what happens to that data does facebook
43:29keep that data do they keep it until
43:32those children go to age 13
43:35since as you're saying they can work
43:37backward and figure out the true age
43:41of a a user so what do
43:44they do with it do they delete it do
43:46they store it do they
43:48keep it how do they process that
43:51um
43:52i am
43:54my understanding of facebook's data
43:56retention policies and i want to be
43:57really clear i didn't work directly on
43:58that is that they delete when they
44:00delete an account they delete all the
44:02data then i believe 90 days in
44:03compliance with gdpr um and with regard
44:07to children underage on the platform
44:09facebook could do substantially more to
44:11detect more of those children and they
44:13should have to publish for congress
44:15those processes
44:17because there are lots of subtleties and
44:19those things and they can be much more
44:20effective than probably what they're
44:21doing today got it
44:23now staying with this underage children
44:26since this hearing is all about kids and
44:28about online privacy i want you to tell
44:33me
44:35how facebook is able to do market
44:37research
44:38on these children that are under age 13
44:42because mrsa davis was really
44:46she didn't deny this
44:48last week so how are they doing this do
44:52they uh bring kids into focus groups
44:55with their parents how do they get that
44:58permission she said they got permission
45:00from parents is there a permission slip
45:04or a form
45:05that gets assigned and then how do they
45:09know which kids to target
45:14um
45:15there's a bunch to unpack there uh we'll
45:16start with maybe how did they recruit
45:18children for focus groups
45:20or recruit teenagers most tech companies
45:23have systems where they can
45:26analyze the data that is on their
45:28servers so
45:29most of the focus groups i read
45:32or that i saw analysis of were around
45:35messenger kids
45:36which has children on it
45:40and those focus groups appear to be
45:41children interacting in person
45:45often large tech companies use either
45:47sourcing agencies that will go and
45:49identify people who meet certain
45:50demographic criteria or they will reach
45:53out directly based on correct uh data on
45:55the platform so for example on the case
45:57of messenger kids maybe you would want
45:59to study a child that was an active user
46:01and one that was a less active user you
46:03might reach out to some that came from
46:05each population and so these are
46:06children that are under age 13 yeah
46:10and they know it
46:11um for for some of these studies and i
46:13assume they get i assume they get
46:15permission but i don't work on them okay
46:17well we're still waiting to get a copy
46:19of that parental consent form
46:22that would involve children um my time
46:24is expired mr chairman i'll save my
46:26other questions for our second round if
46:28we're able to get those thank you great
46:30thank you senator blackburn senator
46:32klobuchar thank you very much mr
46:34chairman thank you so much ms huggin for
46:36shedding a light on how facebook time
46:39and time again has put profit over
46:41people
46:42uh when their own research found that
46:44more than 13 percent of teen girls say
46:47that instagram made their thoughts of
46:49suicide worse what did they do they
46:50proposed instagram for kids which has
46:52now been put on pause because of public
46:55pressure
46:56when they found out that their
46:58algorithms are fostering polarization
47:00misinformation and hate
47:03um that they allowed 99
47:06of their violent contact to remain
47:08unchecked on their platform including
47:11lead up to the january 6 insurrection
47:14what did they do
47:16they now as we know mark zuckerberg is
47:18going sailing and saying no apologies
47:22i think the time has come for action and
47:24i think you are the catalyst for that
47:26action um you have said privacy
47:29legislation is not enough i completely
47:31agree with you but i think you know we
47:33have not done anything to update our
47:35privacy laws in this country are federal
47:37privacy laws nothing zilch in any major
47:40way why because there are lobbyists
47:42around every single corner of this
47:45building that have been hired by the
47:46tech industry we have done nothing when
47:49it comes to making the algorithms more
47:51transparent allowing for the university
47:53research that you referred to why
47:55because facebook and the other tech
47:57companies are throwing a bunch of money
47:59around this town and people are
48:00listening to them we have done nothing
48:03significantly past although we are on a
48:06bipartisan basis working in the
48:08antitrust subcommittee to get something
48:10done on consolidation which you
48:12understand allows the dominant platforms
48:15to control all this like the bullies in
48:18the neighborhood buy out the companies
48:20that maybe could have competed with them
48:22and added the bells and whistles so the
48:24time for action is now so i'll start
48:26i'll start with something that i asked
48:28facebook's head of safety when she
48:30testified before us last week i asked
48:33her how they
48:34estimate the lifetime value of a user
48:37for kids who start using their products
48:39before they turn 13. she evaded the
48:42question and said that's not the way we
48:44think about it
48:45is that right or is it your experience
48:47that facebook estimates and that and
48:50puts a value on how much money they get
48:54from users in general i'll get to kids
48:56in a second is that a motivating force
48:58for them
48:59um
49:01based on what i saw in terms of
49:02allocation of integrity spending so one
49:04of the things disclosed in the wall
49:05street journal was that i believe it's
49:07like 87 of all the misinformation
49:09spending is spent on english but only
49:11about like 9
49:12of the users are english speakers um it
49:15seems that that
49:17facebook invests more and users who make
49:19them more money
49:20even though the danger may not be evenly
49:22distributed based on profitability does
49:24it make sense that having a younger
49:26person get hooked on social media
49:29at a young age makes them more
49:31profitable over the long term as they
49:33have a life ahead of them facebook's
49:35internal documents talk about the
49:36importance of getting younger users for
49:38example tweens onto instagram like
49:41instagram kids because they need to have
49:44um
49:45like they know that children bring their
49:47parents online and things like that and
49:49so they understand the value of younger
49:51users for the long-term success of
49:52facebook facebook reported advertising
49:55revenue to be
49:57and 58 cents per user last quarter in
50:00the u.s and canada uh when i asked ms
50:03davis how much of that came from
50:05instagram users under 18 she wouldn't
50:07say uh do you think that teens are
50:10profitable for their company i would
50:12assume so based on advertising for
50:14things like television uh you have much
50:16substantially higher advertising rates
50:17for customers who don't yet have
50:18preferences or habits and so i'm i'm
50:21sure they're some of the more profitable
50:22users on facebook but i do not work
50:24directly on that
50:25another major issue that's come out of
50:27this eating disorders
50:30studies have found that eating disorders
50:31actually have the highest mortality rate
50:34of any mental illness
50:36for women and i led a bill on this with
50:39centers capital and baldwin uh that we
50:41passed into law and i'm concerned that
50:44this algorithms that they have pushes
50:46outrageous content um
50:48promoting anorexia and the like i know
50:50it's personal to you
50:52do you think that their algorithms push
50:55some of this content to young girls
50:57facebook knows that they're the
51:00engagement based ranking the way that
51:02they pick the content in instagram for
51:04young users for all users
51:06amplifies preferences and they have done
51:08something called a proactive a proactive
51:11incident response where they take things
51:14they've heard for example like
51:16can you be led by the algorithms to
51:18anorexia content and they have literally
51:20recreated that experiment themselves and
51:22confirmed yes this this happens to
51:24people so facebook knows that they are
51:26that they are leading young users to
51:28anorexia content uh do you think they
51:31are deliberately designing their product
51:33to be addictive beyond even that content
51:36facebook has a long history of having a
51:38successful and very effective growth
51:41division
51:42where they take little tiny tweaks and
51:44they constantly constantly constantly
51:45are trying to optimize it to grow
51:48those kinds of stickiness could be cons
51:50construed as things that facilitate
51:52addiction right last thing i'll ask is
51:54we've seen this same kind of content in
51:56the political
51:58world you brought up other countries and
51:59what's been happening there on 60
52:01minutes you said that facebook
52:03implemented safeguards to reduce
52:05misinformation ahead of the 2020
52:07election but turned off those safeguards
52:10right after the election
52:12and you know that the insurrection
52:13occurred january 6 do you think that
52:15facebook turned off the safeguards
52:17because they were costing the company
52:19money because it was reducing profit
52:23facebook has been emphasizing a false
52:25choice they've said
52:26the safeguards that were in place before
52:28the election
52:29implicated free speech
52:31the choices that were happening on the
52:33platform were really about how reactive
52:35and twitchy was the platform right like
52:37how viral was the platform and facebook
52:41changed those safety defaults in the
52:43run-up to the election because they knew
52:44they were dangerous and because they
52:46wanted that growth back they wanted the
52:49acceleration of the platform back after
52:50the election they they returned to their
52:52original defaults and the fact that they
52:54had to break the glass on january 6th
52:57and turn them back on
52:59i think that's deeply problematic agree
53:01thank you very much for your bravery and
53:03coming forward
53:06senator thune
53:07thank you mr chair and uh
53:09ranking member blackburn um
53:12i've been arguing for some time that it
53:15is time for congress to act and i think
53:17the question is always what is the
53:19correct way to do it the right way to do
53:21it consistent with
53:22uh our first amendment right to free
53:25speech
53:26this committee
53:28doesn't have jurisdiction over the
53:30antitrust issue that's the judiciary
53:31committee and i'm not averse to looking
53:33at the monopolistic
53:34nature of facebook honestly i think
53:36that's a real issue that needs to be
53:38examined and perhaps addressed as well
53:40but at least under this committee's
53:41jurisdiction there are a couple of
53:42things i think we can do and um i have a
53:45piece of legislation and senators
53:47blackburn and blumenthal are both
53:48co-sponsors
53:50uh called the filter bubble transparency
53:52act and essentially what it would do is
53:54give users the options to engage with
53:57social media platforms without being
53:59manipulated
54:00by these secret formulas that
54:02essentially dictate the content that you
54:05see when you open up an app or log on to
54:07a website
54:09we also i think need to hold big tech
54:12accountable by reforming section 230
54:15uh and one of the best opportunities i
54:16think to do that at least for in a
54:18bipartisan way is the platform
54:20accountability and consumer transparency
54:22or the pacdac and that's legislation
54:23that i've co-sponsored with senator
54:25schatz
54:26which in addition to stripping section
54:28230 protections for content that a court
54:31determines to be illegal
54:32the pact act would also increase
54:34transparency and due process for users
54:36around the content moderation
54:39process and importantly in the context
54:41we're talking about today with this
54:43hearing with a major big tech
54:45whistleblower the packed act would
54:47explore the viability of a federal
54:49program for big tech employees to blow
54:51the whistle on wrongdoing inside the
54:52companies where they work
54:54in my view we should encourage employees
54:56in the tech sector like you to speak up
54:59about uh questionable practices of big
55:01tech companies so we can among other
55:03things
55:04ensure that americans are fully aware of
55:05how social media platforms are using
55:07artificial intelligence and opaque
55:10algorithms to keep them hooked on the
55:12platform
55:13so let me miss haugen just ask you we've
55:16learned from the information that you've
55:17provided that facebook conducts what's
55:20called engagement based ranking
55:23which you've described is very dangerous
55:24could you talk more about why engagement
55:26based ranking is dangerous and do you
55:28think congress
55:29should seek to pass legislation like the
55:31filter bubble transparency act that
55:33would give users the ability to avoid
55:36engagement based ranking altogether
55:40facebook is going to say
55:42you don't want to give up engagement
55:44based ranking you're not going to like
55:46facebook as much if we're not picking
55:48out the content for you
55:50that's that's just not true there are a
55:52lot of facebook likes to present things
55:54as false choices like you have to choose
55:56between having lots of spam like let's
55:58say imagine we ordered our feeds by time
56:01like on imessage or on
56:04their other forms of social media that
56:06are chronologically based
56:08they're going to say you're going to get
56:09spam you're spammed like you're not
56:11going to enjoy your feed the reality is
56:14that those experiences have a lot of
56:15permutations there are ways that we can
56:17make those experiences where computers
56:19don't regulate what we see
56:21we together socially regulate what we
56:23see
56:24but they don't want us to have that
56:26conversation because facebook knows that
56:28when they pick out their content that we
56:30focus on using computers we spend more
56:33time on their platform they make more
56:35money
56:37the dangers of engagement-based ranking
56:39are that facebook knows
56:41that content that elicits an extreme
56:44reaction from you is more likely to get
56:46a click a comment or reshare
56:48and it's interesting because those
56:50clicks and comments and reshares aren't
56:51even necessarily for your benefit it's
56:54because they know that other people will
56:56produce more content if they get the
56:58likes and comments and ratios they
57:00prioritize content in your feed so you
57:03will give little hints of dopamine to
57:05your friends so they will create more
57:06content and they have run experiments on
57:09people produce their site experiments
57:11where they have confirmed this
57:14so
57:15you you and your um
57:16part of the information you provided the
57:18wall street journal uh it's been found
57:20that facebook altered its algorithm in
57:22attempt to boost these meaningful social
57:24interactions or msi
57:26but rather than strengthening bonds
57:28between family and friends on the
57:30platform the algorithm instead rewarded
57:31more outrage and sensationalism and i
57:34think facebook would say that its
57:36algorithms are used to connect
57:37individuals with other friends and
57:38family that are largely positive
57:40do you believe that facebook's
57:43algorithms make its platform a better
57:45place for most users and should
57:47consumers
57:48have the option
57:50to use facebook and instagram without
57:52being manipulated by algorithms designed
57:54to keep them
57:55engaged on that platform i strongly
57:58believe like i've spent most of my
57:59career working on systems like
58:01engagement based ranking like when i
58:03come to you and say these things i'm
58:04basically damning 10 years of my own
58:06work right um
58:08engagement based ranking facebook says
58:11we can do it safely because we have ai
58:13you know the artificial intelligence
58:15will find the bad content that we know
58:17our engagement based ranking is
58:18promoting they've written blog posts on
58:20how they know engagement-based ranking's
58:22dangerous but the ai will save us
58:25facebook's own research says they cannot
58:27adequately identify dangerous content
58:30and as a result those dangerous
58:32algorithms that they admit are picking
58:34up the the the extreme sentiments the
58:37division
58:38they can't protect us from the harms
58:40that they know exist in their own system
58:42and so i i i don't think it's just a
58:44question of saying should people have
58:46the option of choosing to not be
58:47manipulated by their algorithms
58:50i think if we had appropriate oversight
58:52or if we were formed 230 to make
58:54facebook responsible for the
58:56consequences of their intentional
58:58ranking decisions
58:59i think they would they would get rid of
59:01engagement based ranking because it is
59:03causing um teenagers to be exposed to
59:06more anorexia content it is pulling
59:08families apart and in places like
59:10ethiopia it's literally fanning ethnic
59:12violence
59:13um i encourage reform of these platforms
59:16not not picking and choosing individual
59:19ideas instead making the platforms
59:22themselves safer less twitchy less
59:24reactive less viral because that's how
59:26we scalably solve these problems thank
59:29you miss chair i would simply say let's
59:31uh let's get to work so we got some
59:33things we can do here thanks i agree
59:36thank you uh senator shot
59:38thank you mr chairman ranking member
59:39thank you for your courage in coming
59:42forward
59:43was there a particular moment
59:45when you came to the conclusion
59:47that
59:48reform from the inside was impossible
59:50and that you decided to be a
59:51whistleblower
59:55there was a long series of moments where
59:57i became aware that
59:59facebook went faced with conflicts of
1:00:01interest between its own profits and the
1:00:04common good public safety that facebook
1:00:06consistently chose to prioritize its
1:00:08profits
1:00:09i think the moment which i realized
1:00:12we needed to get help from the outside
1:00:14that the only way these problems would
1:00:15be solved is by solving them together
1:00:17not solving them alone was when civic
1:00:19integrity was dissolved following the
1:00:212020 election it really felt like a
1:00:24betrayal of the promises that facebook
1:00:26had made to people who had sacrificed a
1:00:28great deal to keep the election safe
1:00:31by basically dissolving our community
1:00:33and integrating in just other parts of
1:00:35the company and when i know their their
1:00:38response is that they've sort of
1:00:40distributed the duties yeah that's an
1:00:42excuse right
1:00:44um
1:00:45i i cannot see into the hearts of other
1:00:47men and i i i don't know let me say it
1:00:50this way it won't work right i i can
1:00:53tell you that when i left the company so
1:00:56my the people who i worked with were
1:00:57disproportionately maybe
1:00:5975 of my pod of seven people um
1:01:03those are product managers program
1:01:04managers most of them had come from
1:01:06civic integrity
1:01:08all of us left
1:01:10the inauthentic behavior pod uh either
1:01:12for other parts of the company or or the
1:01:14company entirely over the same six-week
1:01:16period of time so six months after the
1:01:18reorganization we had clearly lost faith
1:01:20that those changes were coming
1:01:22you said in your opening statement that
1:01:24they know how to make facebook and
1:01:27instagram
1:01:28safer so
1:01:30thought experiment you are now
1:01:32the chief executive officer and chairman
1:01:35of the company
1:01:36what changes would you immediately
1:01:38institute
1:01:39um i
1:01:41would immediately
1:01:42establish a policy of how to share
1:01:45information and research from inside the
1:01:47company with appropriate oversight
1:01:49bodies like congress
1:01:50i would i would give proposed
1:01:52legislation to congress saying here's
1:01:54what an effective oversight agency would
1:01:56look like
1:01:57i would actively engage with academics
1:02:00to make sure that that
1:02:02people who are
1:02:03who are confirming our facebook's
1:02:04marketing messages true have the
1:02:06information they need to confirm these
1:02:07things
1:02:08and i would um immediately implement the
1:02:12quote soft interventions that were
1:02:14identified to protect the 2020 election
1:02:16so that's things like requiring someone
1:02:18to click on a link before re-sharing it
1:02:21because other companies like twitter
1:02:22have found that that significantly
1:02:24reduces misinformation no one is
1:02:26censored by being forced to click on a
1:02:28link before re-sharing it
1:02:31thank you i want to pivot back to
1:02:33instagram's targeting of kids we all
1:02:37know that they announced a pause
1:02:39but that reminds me of what they
1:02:41announced
1:02:43when they were going to
1:02:44issue a digital currency
1:02:46and they got beat up by the u.s senate
1:02:48banking committee and they said never
1:02:50mind
1:02:51and now they're coming back around
1:02:52hoping that nobody notices that they
1:02:55are going to try to issue a currency now
1:02:58let's set aside for the moment
1:02:59this sort of
1:03:01the the business model which appears to
1:03:04be gobble up everything do everything
1:03:06that's the gross growth strategy
1:03:08do you believe that they're actually
1:03:10going to discontinue instagram kids or
1:03:12they're just waiting for the dust to
1:03:13settle
1:03:15and
1:03:16i would be sincerely surprised if they
1:03:19do not continue working on instagram
1:03:20kids and i would be amazed if a year
1:03:22from now we don't have this conversation
1:03:24again
1:03:25why
1:03:27facebook understands that if they want
1:03:29to continue to grow they have to find
1:03:31new users they have to make sure that
1:03:34that the next generation is just as
1:03:36engaged with instagram as the current
1:03:37one
1:03:39and the way they'll do that is by making
1:03:41sure that children
1:03:42establish habits before they have good
1:03:44self-regulation by hooking kids by
1:03:46hooking kids
1:03:49i would like to emphasize one of the
1:03:51documents that we sent in on problematic
1:03:52use examined the rates of problematic
1:03:55use by age and that peaked with 14 year
1:03:58olds it's just like cigarettes teenagers
1:04:00don't have good self-regulation they say
1:04:03explicitly
1:04:04i feel bad when i use instagram and yet
1:04:06i can't stop
1:04:08um we need to protect the kids
1:04:11just my final question i have a long
1:04:13list of
1:04:14misstatements misdirections
1:04:17and outright lies uh from the company i
1:04:19don't have time to read them but you're
1:04:22as intimate with all these
1:04:24deceptions as i am so i will just jump
1:04:27to the and
1:04:29uh
1:04:30if you were
1:04:32a member of this panel would you believe
1:04:33what facebook is saying
1:04:35i would not believe
1:04:37uh facebook has not earned our right to
1:04:40just have blind trust in them
1:04:42trust is last week one of the most
1:04:44beautiful things that i heard on the on
1:04:46the committee was um
1:04:48trust is earned and facebook has not
1:04:50earned our trust
1:04:52thank you
1:04:55thanks senator schatz uh senator
1:04:57moran uh and then uh we've been joined
1:05:00by the chair
1:05:02senator cantwell she'll be next
1:05:04we're gonna break at about 11 30 if
1:05:06that's okay because we have a vote
1:05:09and then we'll reconvene okay
1:05:13mr chairman thank you the conversation
1:05:15so far reminds me that you and i ought
1:05:16to resolve our differences and
1:05:19introduce legislation so as senator
1:05:21thune said let's go to work our
1:05:23differences are very minor
1:05:26or they seem very minor in the face of
1:05:28the
1:05:30revelations that we've now seen so i'm
1:05:32hoping we can move forward senator i i
1:05:34share that view mr chairman thank you
1:05:36uh thank you very much uh for your
1:05:38testimony
1:05:40what examples do you know we've talked
1:05:42about particularly children teenage
1:05:44girls in
1:05:46specifically but what other examples do
1:05:48you know about where facebook or
1:05:50instagram
1:05:52knew its decisions would be harmful
1:05:55to its users but still proceeded with
1:05:57the with the uh plan
1:06:00and executed those harmful uh that
1:06:04harmful behavior
1:06:05facebook's internal research is aware
1:06:07that there are a variety of problems
1:06:08facing children on instagram that are um
1:06:15they know that severe harm is happening
1:06:17to children for example in the case of
1:06:19bullying
1:06:20uh facebook knows that instagram
1:06:23dramatically changes the experience of
1:06:25high school so when we were in high
1:06:27school when i was in high school uh most
1:06:29kids you looked at me and changed your
1:06:31word
1:06:32sorry
1:06:33um
1:06:35when i was in high school you know or
1:06:36most kids have positive home lives like
1:06:38it doesn't matter how bad it is at
1:06:40school
1:06:41kids can go home and reset for 16 hours
1:06:45kids kids who are bullied on instagram
1:06:47the bullying follows them home it
1:06:50follows them into their bedrooms the
1:06:52last thing they see before they go to
1:06:53bed at night is someone being cruel to
1:06:54them or the first thing they see in the
1:06:56morning is someone being cruel to them
1:06:58kids are learning that their own friends
1:07:01like people who they care about them are
1:07:03cruel to them
1:07:04like think about how that's going to
1:07:06impact their domestic relationships when
1:07:07they become 20 somethings or 30
1:07:09somethings to believe that people who
1:07:10care about you are mean to you
1:07:12um facebook knows that parents today
1:07:15because they didn't experience these
1:07:17things they never experienced this
1:07:18addictive experience with a piece of
1:07:19technology they give their children bad
1:07:22advice they say things like why don't
1:07:23you just stop using it
1:07:25and so that facebook's own research is
1:07:27aware that children express feelings of
1:07:29loneliness and struggling with these
1:07:31things because they can't even get
1:07:33support from their own parents
1:07:35i don't understand how facebook can know
1:07:37all these things and not
1:07:40escalate it to someone like congress for
1:07:41help and support in navigating these
1:07:43problems let me ask the question in a
1:07:45broader way besides teenagers or besides
1:07:48girls or besides youth
1:07:50are there other practices at facebook or
1:07:52instagram that are known to be harmful
1:07:54but yet are pursued
1:08:00facebook is aware that choices are made
1:08:03in establishing like meaningful social
1:08:05meaningful social interactions so
1:08:08engagement based ranking that didn't
1:08:09care if you bullied someone or committed
1:08:11hate speech in the comments that was
1:08:12meaningful
1:08:14they know that that change directly
1:08:16changed publishers behavior that
1:08:18companies like buzzfeed wrote in and
1:08:20said the content is most successful on
1:08:22our platform is some of the content
1:08:23we're most ashamed of
1:08:25you have a problem with your ranking and
1:08:26they did nothing they know that
1:08:28uh politicians are being forced to take
1:08:30positions they know their own
1:08:32constituents don't like or approve of
1:08:34because those are the ones that get
1:08:35distributed on facebook that's a huge
1:08:39huge negative impact they all facebook
1:08:41also knows that they have admitted in
1:08:43public that engagement based ranking is
1:08:45dangerous without integrity and security
1:08:47systems but then not rolled out those
1:08:49integrity and security systems to most
1:08:51of the languages in the world
1:08:53and that's what's causing things like
1:08:55ethnic violence in ethiopia thank you
1:08:57for your answer uh what is the magnitude
1:09:00of facebook's revenues or profits
1:09:03that come from
1:09:05the sale of user data oh i'm i'm sorry
1:09:08i've never worked on that i'm not aware
1:09:10thank you
1:09:10um
1:09:12what regulations or legal actions by
1:09:14congress or by administrative action
1:09:17do you think would have the most
1:09:19consequence or would be feared most by
1:09:21facebook instagram or allied companies
1:09:24um i strongly encourage reforming
1:09:26section 230 to
1:09:29exempt
1:09:30decisions about algorithms right so
1:09:33modifying 230 around content i think has
1:09:36uh it's very complicated because uh
1:09:40user generated content is something that
1:09:42companies have less control over they
1:09:44have a hundred percent control over
1:09:46their algorithms and facebook should not
1:09:48get a free pass on choices it makes to
1:09:51prioritize growth and virality and
1:09:53reactiveness over public safety
1:09:56they shouldn't get a free pass on that
1:09:57because they're paying for their profits
1:09:59right now with our safety
1:10:01so i strongly encourage reform of 230 in
1:10:03that way i also believe there needs to
1:10:05be a dedicated oversight body because
1:10:07right now the only people in the world
1:10:09who are trained to analyze these
1:10:11experiments to understand what's
1:10:12happening inside of facebook are people
1:10:15who you know grew up inside of facebook
1:10:17or pinterest or another social media
1:10:19company and there needs to be a
1:10:20regulatory home where someone like me
1:10:23could do a tour of duty after working at
1:10:25a place like this
1:10:26and and have a place to work on things
1:10:28like regulation to bring that
1:10:29information out to the oversight boards
1:10:32that that have the right to do oversight
1:10:34a regulatory agency within the federal
1:10:36government yes
1:10:38thank you very much thank you chairman
1:10:40senator cantwell thank you mr chairman
1:10:43thank you for holding this hearing and i
1:10:44think my colleagues have brought up a
1:10:46lot of important issues and so i think i
1:10:48just want to continue on that vein
1:10:50first of all the privacy act that i
1:10:52introduced along with several of my
1:10:53colleagues actually does have ftc
1:10:56oversight of algorithm transparency in
1:10:59some instances i'd hope you take a look
1:11:01at that and tell us what other areas you
1:11:04think
1:11:04we should add to that level of
1:11:07transparency but clearly that's the the
1:11:10issue at hand here i think in your
1:11:12coming forward so thank you again for
1:11:14your willingness to do that
1:11:16the documentation that you say now
1:11:18exists
1:11:19is uh the level of transparency about
1:11:22what's going on that people haven't been
1:11:24able to see
1:11:25and so your information that you say has
1:11:29gone up to the highest levels
1:11:31at facebook is that they purposely knew
1:11:34that their algorithms were continuing to
1:11:37have misinformation and hate information
1:11:41and that
1:11:42when presented with information about
1:11:44this terminology
1:11:46you know downstream msi meaningful
1:11:49social information knowing that it was
1:11:51this choice you could continue this
1:11:54wrong-headed information hate
1:11:56information about the rohingya or you
1:11:58could continue to get higher
1:12:00click-through rates and i know you said
1:12:01you don't know about profits but i'm
1:12:02pretty sure you know that on a page
1:12:05if you click through that next page i'm
1:12:06pretty sure there's a lot more ad
1:12:08revenue than if you didn't click through
1:12:11so you're saying that documents exist
1:12:13that at the highest level
1:12:15at facebook you had
1:12:17information discussing these two choices
1:12:19and that people chose even though they
1:12:22knew that it was misinformation and
1:12:24hurtful and maybe even causing people
1:12:26lives they continued to choose profit
1:12:29we have submitted documents to congress
1:12:31outlining um mark zuckerberg was
1:12:34directly presented with a list of quote
1:12:36soft interventions so a hard
1:12:38intervention is like taking a piece of
1:12:39content off facebook taking a user off
1:12:41facebook soft interventions are about
1:12:44making slightly different choices to
1:12:45make the platform less viral less
1:12:47twitchy
1:12:49mark was presented with these options
1:12:51and chose to not remove downstream msi
1:12:55in april of 2020 even though he in in
1:12:58even just isolated in at-risk countries
1:13:01that's countries at risk of violence
1:13:04if it had any impact on the overall msi
1:13:07metric so he chose which in translation
1:13:10means less money yeah he he said right
1:13:13was there another reason given why they
1:13:15would do it other than they thought it
1:13:17would really affect their numbers um
1:13:20i don't don't know for certain like jeff
1:13:23jeff horowitz the report for the wall
1:13:24street journal and i struggled with this
1:13:25we sat there and read these minutes and
1:13:27we're like how is this possible like
1:13:29we've just read
1:13:31100 pages on how downstream msi expands
1:13:34hate speech misinformation violence and
1:13:37signing content graphic violent content
1:13:39why won't you get rid of this and we the
1:13:41best theory that we've come up with and
1:13:43i want to emphasize this is just our
1:13:44interpretation on it because people's
1:13:46bonuses are tied to msi
1:13:48right like people people stay or leave
1:13:50the company based on what they get paid
1:13:52and like if you hurt msi a bunch of
1:13:55people didn't weren't going to get their
1:13:56bonuses so you're saying that this
1:13:58practice even still continues today like
1:14:00we're still in this environment i'm
1:14:02personally
1:14:03very frustrated by this because we
1:14:06presented information to facebook from
1:14:08one of my own constituents in 2018
1:14:12talking about this issue with rohingya
1:14:15pleading with the company we pleaded
1:14:17with the company and they continue to
1:14:20not address this issue now you're
1:14:21pointing out that these same algorithms
1:14:24are being used and they know darn well
1:14:27in ethiopia that it's causing an
1:14:29inciting violence and again they are
1:14:30still today choosing profit over taking
1:14:33this information down is that correct
1:14:35when rioting began in the united states
1:14:36in the summer of last year they turned
1:14:39off downstream msi only for when they
1:14:42detected content was health content
1:14:44which is probably coveted and um civic
1:14:46content but facebook's own algorithms
1:14:48are bad at finding this content it's
1:14:50still in the raw form for 80 90 of of
1:14:54even that sensitive content
1:14:56in countries where they don't have
1:14:58integrity systems in the language local
1:15:00language and in the case of ethiopia
1:15:02there are 100 million people in ethiopia
1:15:04in six languages facebook only supports
1:15:06two of those languages for integrity
1:15:08systems
1:15:09this strategy of focusing on language
1:15:11specific content specific systems ai to
1:15:14save us is doomed to fail
1:15:17i need to get to one of first of all i'm
1:15:18sending a letter to facebook today they
1:15:20better not delete any information as it
1:15:22relates to the rohingya our
1:15:23investigations about how they proceeded
1:15:26on this particularly on in light of your
1:15:28information or the documents but aren't
1:15:30we also now talking about advertising
1:15:32fraud aren't you selling something to
1:15:35advertisers that's not really what
1:15:37they're getting we know about this
1:15:38because of the newspaper issues we're
1:15:40trying to say that journalism that
1:15:42basically has to meet a different
1:15:43standard a public interest standard that
1:15:46basically is out there basically proving
1:15:48every day or they can be sued these guys
1:15:50are a social media platform that doesn't
1:15:52have to live with that and then the
1:15:54consequences they're telling their
1:15:56advertisers that this was we see it we
1:15:58see it people are coming back to the
1:16:00local journalism because they're like we
1:16:01want to be again with the trusted brand
1:16:03we don't want to be in you know your
1:16:05website so i i think your finding for
1:16:07the
1:16:08sec
1:16:09is an interesting one but i think that
1:16:11we also have to look at what are the
1:16:12other issues here and one of them is did
1:16:14you defraud did they defraud advertisers
1:16:16and telling them this was the
1:16:17advertising content that you were going
1:16:19to be advertising and when in reality it
1:16:20was something different it was based on
1:16:22a different model we have multiple
1:16:24examples of
1:16:25question and answers for the advertising
1:16:28staff the sales staff where advertisers
1:16:30say after the riots last summer we're
1:16:32asked should we come back to facebook or
1:16:34after the insurrection like should we
1:16:36come back to facebook um and facebook
1:16:38said in their talking points that they
1:16:40gave to advertisers we're doing
1:16:42everything in our power to make this
1:16:44safer or we take down all the hate
1:16:45speech when we find it but facebook's
1:16:47owned and that was not true that was not
1:16:49true they get three to five percent of
1:16:50hate speech thank you thank you mr
1:16:52chairman
1:16:53thanks senator cantwell um and if you
1:16:56want to make your letter available to
1:16:58other members of the committee i'd be
1:17:00glad to join you myself thank you thank
1:17:03you for suggesting it thank you um
1:17:06senator lee
1:17:09thank you mr chairman and thank you miss
1:17:11haugen for joining us this week it's
1:17:13very very helpful or grateful that
1:17:15you're willing to make yourself
1:17:17available
1:17:18last week we had another witness from
1:17:20facebook
1:17:22ms davis she came and she testified
1:17:24before this committee and she focused on
1:17:28among other things the extent to which
1:17:29facebook targets ads to children
1:17:32including ads that are either sexually
1:17:34suggestive or geared toward adult themed
1:17:38uh
1:17:38products or themes in general
1:17:41now i didn't i i well i appreciated her
1:17:43willingness to be here i didn't
1:17:45get the clearest answers in response to
1:17:48some of those questions and so i'm
1:17:49hoping that you can help shed some light
1:17:51on some of those
1:17:53issues
1:17:54related to facebook's advertising
1:17:55processes here today as we get into this
1:17:58i want to first read you a a quote uh
1:18:00that i got from from ms davis uh last
1:18:03week
1:18:03um here's what she said during her
1:18:05questioning quote
1:18:07when we do ads to young people there are
1:18:10only three things that an advertiser can
1:18:12target around age
1:18:14gender location
1:18:16we also prohibit certain ads to young
1:18:18people including weight loss ads
1:18:21we don't allow tobacco ads at all
1:18:24meaning to young people we don't allow
1:18:25them to children we don't allow them to
1:18:28minors close quote
1:18:30now since that exchange happened um last
1:18:32week
1:18:34there are a number of individuals and
1:18:36groups including a group called the
1:18:37technology transparency project or tdp
1:18:41that have indicated that
1:18:43that part of our testimony was
1:18:44inaccurate that it was false
1:18:46tdp noted that
1:18:49tdp had conducted an experiment
1:18:53just last month
1:18:54and their their goal was to
1:18:57run a series of ads that
1:18:59would be targeted to children ages 13 to
1:19:0317
1:19:04to users in the united states now i want
1:19:06to emphasize that
1:19:08tdp didn't end up running these ads
1:19:12they stopped them from being distributed
1:19:14to
1:19:15to users
1:19:16but facebook did in fact approve them
1:19:19and as i understand it facebook approved
1:19:20them for an audience of up to 9.1
1:19:23million users all of whom were teens so
1:19:26i brought a few of these to show you
1:19:28today this is this is the first one i
1:19:29wanted to showcase
1:19:30this first one
1:19:32has a colorful graphic
1:19:35encouraging kids to quote throw a
1:19:37skittles party like no other
1:19:40which
1:19:41you know as the graphic indicates and as
1:19:43as the slang jargon
1:19:46also independently suggests
1:19:48this involves
1:19:49kids getting together
1:19:51randomly to abuse prescription drugs
1:19:54the second graphic displays
1:19:57an anna tip
1:19:58that is
1:20:00a tip specifically designed to encourage
1:20:03and promote anorexia
1:20:06and it's on there now the language the
1:20:08ana tip itself
1:20:10independently promotes that the ad also
1:20:12promotes it insofar as it was suggesting
1:20:15these are images you ought to look at
1:20:17when you need motivation to be more
1:20:20anorexic i guess you could say
1:20:23now the third one invites children to
1:20:26find their partner online and to make a
1:20:29love connection you look lonely find
1:20:31your partner
1:20:32now to make a love connection now look
1:20:34it'd be an entirely different kettle of
1:20:36fish if this were targeted to an adult
1:20:38audience it is not
1:20:39targeted to 13 to 17 year olds
1:20:43now
1:20:43obviously i don't support and and tdp
1:20:46does not support these messages
1:20:48particularly when targeted to
1:20:50impressionable children
1:20:51and and again just to be clear tdp did
1:20:54not end up pushing the ads
1:20:57out after receiving facebook's approval
1:21:00but it did in fact receive facebook's
1:21:02approval
1:21:04um so i i think this says something one
1:21:08could argue that it proves that facebook
1:21:10is allowing
1:21:11and and perhaps facilitating the
1:21:13targeting of harmful adult-themed ads
1:21:16to our nation's children
1:21:18so could you please explain to me uh
1:21:21miss haugen um
1:21:23how these ads
1:21:25with a target audience of 13 to 17 year
1:21:30old children
1:21:32how would they possibly be approved by
1:21:34facebook and is ai involved in that
1:21:38um
1:21:40i did not work directly on the ad
1:21:42approval system um uh what was resonant
1:21:45for me about your testimony is facebook
1:21:48uh
1:21:50has a deep focus on scale so scale is
1:21:53can we do things very cheaply for a huge
1:21:55number of people which is part of why
1:21:56they rely on ai so much it is very
1:21:59possible that none of those ads were
1:22:00seen by a human
1:22:02and the reality is that we've seen from
1:22:03repeated documents within my disclosures
1:22:06is that facebook's ai systems
1:22:08only catch a very tiny minority of
1:22:11offending content and best case scenario
1:22:13in the case of something like hate
1:22:14speech at most they will ever get 10 to
1:22:1620 percent in the case of children that
1:22:19means drug paraphernalia adds like that
1:22:22it's likely if they rely on computers
1:22:24and not humans they will also likely
1:22:27never get more than 10 to 20 of those
1:22:29ads understood mr chairman i've got one
1:22:31minor follow-up question would uh it
1:22:33should be easy to answer go ahead
1:22:36um
1:22:37so
1:22:38well facebook make may claim
1:22:40that it only targets ads
1:22:43based on age gender and location
1:22:46even though
1:22:47these things uh seem to counteract that
1:22:51but let's set that aside for a minute um
1:22:53and that they're not basing ads
1:22:56uh based on specific interest categories
1:22:58does facebook still collect interest
1:23:00category data on teenagers
1:23:03even if they aren't at that moment
1:23:06targeting ads at teens based on those
1:23:10interest categories i think it's very
1:23:11important to differentiate between what
1:23:13targeting are advertisers allowed to
1:23:15specify and what targeting
1:23:18facebook may learn for an ad let's
1:23:20imagine you had some text on an ad it
1:23:22would likely extract out features that
1:23:25if thought was relevant for that ad for
1:23:26example um
1:23:28in the case of something about partying
1:23:30it would learn partying is a concept
1:23:33i'm very suspicious that personalized
1:23:36ads are still not being delivered
1:23:38to teenagers on instagram because the
1:23:40algorithms learn correlations they learn
1:23:43interactions where your party ad may
1:23:46still go to kids interested in partying
1:23:48because facebook is prof is almost
1:23:51certainly has a ranking model in the
1:23:53background that it says this person
1:23:55wants more party related content
1:23:57interesting
1:23:58thank you that's very helpful and what
1:24:00that suggests to me is that while
1:24:01they're they're saying they're not
1:24:02targeting
1:24:04teens with those ads the algorithm might
1:24:06do some of that work for them which
1:24:08might explain why they collect the data
1:24:11even while claiming that they're not
1:24:12targeting those ads in that way i can't
1:24:13speak to whether or not that's the
1:24:15intention but the reality is it's very
1:24:17very very difficult to understand these
1:24:19algorithms today and uh over and over
1:24:22and over again we saw these biases the
1:24:24algorithms unintentionally learn and so
1:24:26yeah it's very hard to just disentangle
1:24:29out these factors as long as you have
1:24:31engagement based ranking thank you ms
1:24:33heaven
1:24:34thank you very much senator lee uh
1:24:37senator
1:24:38uh marky
1:24:40thank you mr chairman very much um
1:24:43thank you miss huggin you you are a 21st
1:24:47century american hero
1:24:50warning our country of the danger
1:24:53for young people
1:24:54or our democracy and our nation owes you
1:24:58uh
1:24:59just a huge
1:25:01debt of gratitude for the courage you're
1:25:03showing here today so thank you
1:25:05um
1:25:06miss hogan um do you agree that facebook
1:25:09actively seeks to attract children and
1:25:11teens onto its platforms
1:25:13and facebook actively markets to
1:25:16children or markets to children under
1:25:18the age of 18 um to get on instagram and
1:25:20definitely uh targets children as young
1:25:23as eight to be on um
1:25:25in messenger kids an internal facebook
1:25:27document from 2020 that you revealed
1:25:29reads why do we care about tweens they
1:25:32are a valuable but untapped audience
1:25:36so facebook only cares about children to
1:25:38the extent that they are of monetary
1:25:41value
1:25:43last week facebook's global head of
1:25:45safety
1:25:46antigone
1:25:47davis told me that facebook does not
1:25:51allow targeting of certain harmful
1:25:53content to teens ms davis stated we
1:25:56don't allow weight loss ads to be shown
1:25:58to people under the age of 18. yet a
1:26:01recent study found that facebook
1:26:03permitted targeting of teens as young as
1:26:0513 with ads that showed a young woman's
1:26:08thin waist promoting websites that
1:26:10glorify anorexia miss hogan
1:26:14based on your time at facebook do you
1:26:16think facebook is telling the truth
1:26:18i think facebook uh has focused on scale
1:26:22over safety
1:26:23and it is likely that they are using
1:26:27artificial intelligence to try to
1:26:28identify harmful ads without allowing
1:26:31the public oversight to see what is the
1:26:33actual effectiveness of those safety
1:26:35systems you unearthed facebook's
1:26:38research about its harm to teens did you
1:26:41raise this issue with your supervisors
1:26:43um i did not work directly on
1:26:46anything involving teen mental health
1:26:48this research is freely available to
1:26:50anyone in the company
1:26:51mr davis testified last week quote we
1:26:54don't allow tobacco ads at all we don't
1:26:57allow them
1:26:58to children either we don't allow
1:27:00alcohol ads to minors however
1:27:03researchers also found that facebook
1:27:05does allow targeting of teens with ads
1:27:09on vaping uh miss hoggin based on your
1:27:11time at facebook do you think facebook
1:27:13is telling the truth
1:27:15um i do not have context on that issue
1:27:18um i assume that if they are using
1:27:20artificial intelligence to catch those
1:27:22vape ads unquestionably ads are making
1:27:24its way through okay
1:27:26um so from my perspective
1:27:28listening to you and your incredibly
1:27:30courageous revelations time and time
1:27:33again facebook says one thing
1:27:36and does another
1:27:37time and time again facebook fails to
1:27:39abide by the commitments that they had
1:27:42made time and time again facebook lies
1:27:45about what they are doing yesterday
1:27:48facebook had a platform outage but for
1:27:50years it has had a principles outage
1:27:53its only real principle is profit
1:27:56facebook's platforms are not safe for
1:27:58young people as you said facebook is
1:28:01like big tobacco
1:28:02enticing young kids with that first
1:28:04cigarette
1:28:05that first social media account designed
1:28:08to hook kids as users for life
1:28:11miss hoggin you know whistleblowing
1:28:12shows that facebook uses harmful
1:28:14features that quantify popularity push
1:28:17manipulative influencer marketing
1:28:20amplify harmful content to teams
1:28:24and last week in this committee facebook
1:28:27wouldn't even commit
1:28:29to not using these features on 10-year
1:28:31goals facebook is built on computer
1:28:34codes
1:28:35of misconduct
1:28:38senator blumenthal and i
1:28:40have introduced the kids internet design
1:28:43and safety act
1:28:44the kids act
1:28:47you have asked us
1:28:48to act as a committee
1:28:51and facebook has scores of lobbyists in
1:28:53the city right now coming in right after
1:28:56this hearing to tell us we can't act
1:28:59and have been successful
1:29:01for a decade
1:29:03in blocking this committee from acting
1:29:06so
1:29:06let me ask you a question
1:29:08the kids internet design and safety act
1:29:11are the kids act here's what the
1:29:12legislation does
1:29:14it includes outright bans on children's
1:29:18app features that one
1:29:20quantify popularity with likes and
1:29:22follow accounts promotes two
1:29:25uh that two promotes influencer
1:29:28marketing and three that amplifies
1:29:32a toxic post and that it would prohibit
1:29:35facebook from using its algorithms to
1:29:38promote toxic
1:29:40post should we pass that legislation
1:29:43i strongly encourage reforms that push
1:29:46us towards human scale social media and
1:29:49not computer driven social media those
1:29:52amplification harms are caused by
1:29:54computers choosing what's important to
1:29:55us not our friends and family and i
1:29:57encourage any system that children are
1:29:59exposed to to not use amplification
1:30:02systems so you agree
1:30:04that congress has to enact these special
1:30:06protections for children and teens that
1:30:08stop social media companies from
1:30:10manipulating young users and threatening
1:30:13their well-being to stop using its
1:30:16algorithm to harm kids you agree with
1:30:18that i i do believe congress must act
1:30:21protect children
1:30:22and children in teens also needed
1:30:24privacy online bill of rights i'm the
1:30:26author of the children's online privacy
1:30:28protection act of 1998
1:30:31but it's only for kids under 13 because
1:30:34the industry stopped me from making it
1:30:36at age 16 in 1998
1:30:39because it was already their business
1:30:40model
1:30:41but we need to update that law for the
1:30:4321st century
1:30:45tell me if this should pass one create
1:30:47an online eraser button so that young
1:30:50users can tell websites to delete the
1:30:52data they've collected about them
1:30:55to give young teens under the age of 16
1:30:58and their parents control of their
1:31:01information and three ban targeted ads
1:31:05to children
1:31:06i support all those actions thank you
1:31:09and
1:31:10and finally i've also introduced the
1:31:12algorithmic justice
1:31:15and online platform transparency act
1:31:18which would one
1:31:20open the hood
1:31:21on facebook and big text algorithms so
1:31:25we know how facebook
1:31:28is using our data to decide what content
1:31:31we see and two ban discriminatory
1:31:35algorithms that harm vulnerable
1:31:37populations online like showing
1:31:40employment and housing ads to white
1:31:43people but not to black
1:31:46people in our country should congress
1:31:49pass that bill
1:31:51algorithmic bias issues are a major
1:31:53issue for our democracy
1:31:55during my time at pinterest i became
1:31:57very
1:31:58aware of the challenges of like i
1:32:01mentioned before it's difficult for us
1:32:02to understand how these algorithms
1:32:04actually act and perform facebook is
1:32:06aware of complaints today by people like
1:32:08african americans saying that reals
1:32:10doesn't um give
1:32:12african americans the same distribution
1:32:14as white people and and until we have
1:32:17transparency and our ability to confirm
1:32:20ourselves that facebook's marketing
1:32:22messages are true we will not have a
1:32:24system that is compatible with democracy
1:32:26so i and i i thank senator lee i agree
1:32:29with you uh and your line of questions i
1:32:32wrote facebook asking them to explain
1:32:34that discrepancy because facebook i
1:32:37think is lying about targeting 13 to 15
1:32:40year olds so
1:32:41here's my message for mark zuckerberg
1:32:44your time of invading our privacy
1:32:48promoting toxic content and preying on
1:32:51children and teens is over
1:32:54congress will be taking action you can
1:32:58work with us
1:32:59or not work with us but we will not
1:33:01allow your company to harm our children
1:33:06and our families and our democracy any
1:33:09longer thank you mr hogan we will act
1:33:14thanks senator markey uh we're going to
1:33:16turn to senator blackburn and then uh
1:33:20we will take a break
1:33:23uh
1:33:24i know that uh
1:33:26there's some interest in another round
1:33:28of questions maybe
1:33:30uh
1:33:31well
1:33:33uh maybe we'll turn to senator lujan for
1:33:36his questions
1:33:38cruz and scott
1:33:40and we have others so we'll come back
1:33:42after the mr chairman
1:33:44i have to um go to sit in the chair um
1:33:47starting at noon today
1:33:54i do i have one question this relates to
1:33:57what mr markey was asking
1:34:00does facebook ever employ child
1:34:03psychologists or mental health
1:34:06professionals to deal with these
1:34:08children online issues that we're
1:34:11discussing
1:34:13facebook has many researchers with phds
1:34:15i assume some of them are i know that
1:34:18some have psychology degrees
1:34:21i'm not sure if they are child
1:34:22specialists facebook also works with
1:34:24external agencies that are specialists
1:34:26at
1:34:27children's rights online
1:34:29senator lujan and then at the conclusion
1:34:32of senator lujan's questions we'll take
1:34:34a break we'll come back
1:34:38at
1:34:39noon
1:34:40thank you mr chairman and i appreciate
1:34:42the indulgence of the committee
1:34:44uh miss hogan last week the committee
1:34:46heard directly from miss
1:34:48davis the global head of safety for
1:34:50facebook
1:34:52during the hearing the company contested
1:34:54their own
1:34:55internal research as if it does not
1:34:58exist
1:35:00yes or no does facebook have internal
1:35:02research indicating that instagram harms
1:35:06teens
1:35:07particularly harming perceptions of body
1:35:10image which disproportionately affects
1:35:12young women
1:35:13yes facebook has extensive research on
1:35:15the impacts of its products on teenagers
1:35:18including young women thank you for
1:35:19confirming these reports
1:35:21last week i requested facebook make the
1:35:24basis of this research the data set
1:35:25minus any personally identifiable
1:35:28information available to this committee
1:35:31do you believe it is important for
1:35:33transparency and safety that facebook
1:35:35release the basis of this internal
1:35:37research the core data set to allow for
1:35:40independent analysis
1:35:42i believe it is vitally important for
1:35:44our democracy that we establish
1:35:46mechanisms where facebook's internal
1:35:47research must be disclosed to the public
1:35:49on a regular basis and that we need to
1:35:51have privacy sensitive data sets that
1:35:54allow an independent researchers to
1:35:56confirm whether or not facebook's
1:35:57marketing messages are actually true
1:36:00beyond this particular research should
1:36:02facebook make its internal primary
1:36:04research not just secondary slide decks
1:36:07of cherry pick data but the underlying
1:36:09data public by default can this be done
1:36:12in a way that respects user privacy
1:36:14i believe in collaboration with
1:36:16academics and other researchers that we
1:36:18can develop privacy conscious ways of
1:36:20exposing radically more data that is
1:36:22available today it is important for our
1:36:24ability to understand how algorithms
1:36:26work how facebook shapes the information
1:36:28we get to see that we have these data
1:36:31sets be publicly available for scrutiny
1:36:33is facebook capable of making the right
1:36:35decision here on its own or is
1:36:37regulation needed to create real
1:36:38transparency at facebook until
1:36:40incentives change at facebook we should
1:36:42not expect facebook to change we need
1:36:44action from congress
1:36:46last week i asked miss davis about
1:36:48shadow profiles for children on the site
1:36:50and she answered that no data is ever
1:36:53collected on children under 13 because
1:36:55they are not allowed to make accounts
1:36:57this tactfully ignores the issue
1:37:00facebook knows children use their
1:37:01platform however instead of seeing this
1:37:04as a problem to be solved facebook views
1:37:06this as a business opportunity
1:37:08yes or no does facebook conduct research
1:37:10on children under 13 examining the
1:37:13business opportunities of connecting
1:37:15these young children to facebook's
1:37:17products i want to emphasize how vital
1:37:19it is that facebook should have to
1:37:20publish the mechanisms by which it tries
1:37:22to detect these children because they
1:37:24are on the platform in far greater
1:37:25numbers than anyone is aware
1:37:27i do believe that or i am aware that
1:37:29facebook is doing research on children
1:37:31under the age of 13 and they have those
1:37:33studies are included in my disclosure
1:37:36you have shared your concerns about how
1:37:38senior management at facebook has
1:37:40continuously prioritized revenue over
1:37:43potential user harm and safety and i
1:37:45have a few questions on facebook's
1:37:47decision making last week i asked miss
1:37:50davis quote has facebook ever found a
1:37:53change to its platform would potentially
1:37:56inflict harm on users but facebook moved
1:37:59forward because the change would also
1:38:01grow users or increase revenue ms davis
1:38:04said in response quote it's not been my
1:38:07experience at all at facebook that's
1:38:10just not how we would approach it yes or
1:38:13no has facebook ever found a feature on
1:38:15its platform harmed its users but the
1:38:18feature moved forward because it would
1:38:19also grow users or increase revenue
1:38:23facebook likes to paint that these
1:38:25issues are really complicated there are
1:38:27lots of simple issues for example
1:38:29requiring someone to click through on a
1:38:31link before you reshare it that's not a
1:38:33large imposition but it does decrease
1:38:35growth a tiny little amount because in
1:38:37some countries uh reshares make up 35 of
1:38:40all the content that people see
1:38:42facebook prioritized that content on the
1:38:45system the reshares over the impacts to
1:38:47misinformation hate speech or violence
1:38:49incitement
1:38:50did these decisions ever come from mark
1:38:52zuckerberg directly or from other senior
1:38:55management at facebook
1:38:57we have a few choice documents that
1:39:00contain notes from briefings with mark
1:39:02zuckerberg where he chose um metrics
1:39:05defined by facebook like meaningful
1:39:07social interactions over changes that
1:39:10would have significantly decreased
1:39:11misinformation hate speech and other
1:39:13inciting content and this is the
1:39:14reference you shared earlier to miss
1:39:16cantwell april of 2020. the soft
1:39:19interventions
1:39:21facebook appeared to be able to count on
1:39:22the silence of its workforce for a long
1:39:25time even as it knowingly continued
1:39:27practices and policies that continue to
1:39:30cause and amplify harm
1:39:32facebook content moderators have called
1:39:34out a culture of fear and secrecy within
1:39:37the company that prevented them from
1:39:39speaking out
1:39:40is there a culture of fear at facebook
1:39:41around whistleblowing and external
1:39:43accountability
1:39:45uh facebook has a culture that that that
1:39:48um emphasizes that that insularity is
1:39:52the path forward that if information is
1:39:54shared with the public it will just be
1:39:55misunderstood
1:39:57and i believe that relationship has to
1:39:59change the only way that we will solve
1:40:00these problems is by solving them
1:40:02together and we will have much better
1:40:04more democratic solutions if we do it
1:40:05collaboratively than in isolation and my
1:40:07final question is there a senior level
1:40:10executive at facebook like an inspector
1:40:12general who's responsible for ensuring
1:40:15complaints from facebook employees are
1:40:17taken seriously and that employees legal
1:40:20ethical and moral concerns receive
1:40:22consideration with the real possibility
1:40:24of instigating change to company
1:40:26policies
1:40:27um
1:40:28i'm not aware of that role but the
1:40:30company is large and it may exist
1:40:32i appreciate that it's my understanding
1:40:34that
1:40:35there's a gentleman by the name of roy
1:40:38austin who is the vice president of
1:40:40civil rights who's described himself as
1:40:42an inspector general but he does not
1:40:45have the authority to make these
1:40:46internal conflicts public the oversight
1:40:49board was created by facebook to review
1:40:51moderation policies related to public
1:40:53content specifically it was not created
1:40:56to allow employees to raise concerns um
1:40:58so again another area of interest i
1:41:00believe that we have to act on i thank
1:41:02you for coming forward today
1:41:04my pleasure
1:41:06happy to serve
1:41:10the committee is in recess
1:42:09over here
1:42:16okay
1:42:40house
1:42:52um
1:42:58all right
1:43:02um
1:43:43thank you
1:44:07is
1:44:38thank you
1:45:35so
1:47:13so
1:47:48financial
1:47:50yeah
1:48:10uh
1:49:26very
1:49:32he said
1:50:07yes
1:50:14okay
1:50:30hi psychology
1:51:08yes
1:51:45um
1:52:19oh
1:52:30um
1:52:51uh
1:53:00foreign
1:53:44um
1:54:14yes
1:54:33my
1:55:02wow
1:55:27this is
1:55:32you
1:56:06is
1:56:55uh
1:57:11um
1:57:31so
1:58:00so
1:58:24foreign
1:58:59uh
1:59:22so
1:59:49sure
2:00:16uh
2:00:28thank you
2:01:00know
2:01:18um
2:01:32um
2:01:56fun
2:02:15uh
2:02:33oh
2:02:57foreign
2:03:24so
2:03:53yes
2:04:12so
2:04:40welcome back miss hogan thank you for
2:04:41your patience uh we're going to
2:04:44reconvene
2:04:45and we'll go to senator hickenlooper
2:04:50thank you mr chair thank you miss haugen
2:04:52for
2:04:53uh for your
2:04:55direct answers and for being willing to
2:04:57come out and
2:04:58you know
2:04:59uh provide such clarity on so many of
2:05:02these issues
2:05:03um
2:05:05obviously facebook can manipulate its
2:05:07algorithms to attract users
2:05:09um
2:05:11and i guess
2:05:12my question would be do you feel
2:05:15in your humble opinion that
2:05:16you know simply
2:05:18maximizing profits
2:05:20no matter the societal impact that that
2:05:23is justified um and i think
2:05:25the question then would be that that's
2:05:27the
2:05:28short question which i think i know the
2:05:29answer
2:05:30what impact uh facebook's bottom line
2:05:33would it have if the algorithm was
2:05:35changed to promote
2:05:37safety
2:05:38and to
2:05:40instead of
2:05:41to for change to
2:05:44to save the lives of young women rather
2:05:46than putting them at risk
2:05:52and learn about the talk button
2:05:54facebook today
2:05:57has a profit
2:05:59makes approximately 40 billion dollars a
2:06:01year in profit
2:06:02a lot of the changes that i'm talking
2:06:04about are are not going to make uh
2:06:06facebook an unprofitable company it just
2:06:09won't be a ludicrously profitable
2:06:11company like it is today
2:06:13um engagement based ranking which causes
2:06:15those amplification problems that leads
2:06:17young women from you know innocuous
2:06:19topics like healthy recipes to anorexia
2:06:21content um if it were removed face
2:06:25people would consume less content on
2:06:26facebook but facebook would still be
2:06:28profitable and so i i
2:06:32i encourage oversight and public
2:06:34scrutiny into how these algorithms work
2:06:36and the consequences of them
2:06:38right well
2:06:40and i appreciate that i uh i'm a former
2:06:43small business owner and uh
2:06:46started a brew pub back in 1988
2:06:48uh
2:06:49and really was always we worked very
2:06:52hard to to look
2:06:55again we weren't doing investigations
2:06:57but we were very sensitive to whether
2:06:58someone had too much to drink whether we
2:07:00had a frequent customer who was
2:07:02frequently
2:07:03putting himself at risk and and others
2:07:06um
2:07:07obviously i think that the facebook
2:07:09business model puts
2:07:10uh well poses risk to to youth and to
2:07:13and to teens
2:07:15you care to compare it to cigarette
2:07:17companies which i thought was
2:07:19rightfully so
2:07:21if this
2:07:22i guess the question is is this level of
2:07:24risk appropriate
2:07:26or is there a level of risk that would
2:07:29be appropriate
2:07:31i think there's an opportunity to
2:07:32reframe some of these oversight actions
2:07:35so when we think of them as these
2:07:37trade-offs of like it's either
2:07:38profitability or safety i think that's a
2:07:40false choice and then reality the thing
2:07:43i'm asking for is a move from
2:07:45short-termism which is what facebook is
2:07:47run under today right is being led by
2:07:49metrics and not led by people
2:07:52and that with appropriate oversight and
2:07:54some of these constraints
2:07:56it's possible that facebook could
2:07:57actually be a much more profitable
2:07:58company five or ten years down the road
2:08:00because it wasn't as toxic not as many
2:08:02people quit it but that's one of those
2:08:04counterfactuals that we can't actually
2:08:06test so regulation might actually make
2:08:08facebook more profitable over the long
2:08:10term right that's often the case i think
2:08:13the same could be set for automobiles
2:08:14and go down the list
2:08:16of all those things
2:08:17that there's so much pushback in the
2:08:19beginning um i also thought that the um
2:08:23the question of
2:08:24of how do we assess the impact to their
2:08:27bottom line uh we had a representative
2:08:29facebook in here recently who talked
2:08:32about that eight out of ten uh facebook
2:08:35users feel their life is better and that
2:08:37their job is to get to ten out of ten
2:08:40maybe this is the two to twenty percent
2:08:42that they're missing i don't know how
2:08:43large that the demographic is of of
2:08:46people that are caught back up into this
2:08:49circus uh circuitous uh you know
2:08:53sense of of really taking them down into
2:08:56the wrong direction how many people that
2:08:58is do you have any idea
2:09:00um
2:09:01that quote last week was really shocking
2:09:02to me because i don't know if you're
2:09:04aware of this but in the case of
2:09:06cigarettes
2:09:07uh only about 10 of people who smoke
2:09:10ever get lung cancer
2:09:11right um so the idea that you know 20 of
2:09:13your users could be facing serious
2:09:15mental health issues and that's not a
2:09:17problem is shocking
2:09:18i also want to emphasize for people that
2:09:20that eating disorders are serious right
2:09:22they're going to be women walking around
2:09:24this planet in 60 years with brittle
2:09:25bones because of choices that facebook
2:09:28made around emphasizing profit today or
2:09:30they're going to be women
2:09:32in 20 years who want to have babies who
2:09:34can't because they're infertile as a
2:09:36result of eating disorders today they're
2:09:37serious
2:09:38and i think there's an opportunity here
2:09:40for having public oversight and public
2:09:42involvement especially in matters that
2:09:44impact children great well thank you for
2:09:48being so direct on this and for stepping
2:09:50forward
2:09:51i yield back the floor chair
2:09:53thanks senator hickenlooper senator cruz
2:09:57thank you mr chairman ms haugen welcome
2:09:59thank you for your testimony
2:10:01uh when it concerns facebook there are a
2:10:03number of concerns that this committee
2:10:06and and congress has been focused on two
2:10:08of the biggest have been facebook's
2:10:10intentional targeting of kids
2:10:12uh with content that is harmful to the
2:10:15children
2:10:16and then secondly in a discrete issue is
2:10:18the pattern of facebook and social media
2:10:20engaging in political censorship
2:10:23uh i want to start with the first issue
2:10:26targeting kids um
2:10:29as you're aware and as indeed the
2:10:30documents that you provided indicated
2:10:33um
2:10:35facebook
2:10:37according to the public reporting on it
2:10:38facebook's
2:10:40internal reports found that instagram
2:10:43makes quote body image issues worse
2:10:47for one in three teen girls
2:10:49and additionally it showed that quote 13
2:10:52of british users
2:10:53and six percent of american users trace
2:10:56their desire to kill themselves to
2:10:58instagram
2:11:00uh is that a fair and accurate
2:11:02characterization of what facebook's
2:11:04research concluded
2:11:06um i only know what i read in the
2:11:08documents that were included in my
2:11:10disclosure
2:11:11that is that is an accurate description
2:11:13of the ones that i have read i
2:11:15because facebook has not come forward
2:11:17with the total corpus of their known
2:11:19research i don't know what their other
2:11:20things say but yes there is documents
2:11:22that say those things so we had
2:11:24testimony last week in the senate with a
2:11:26witness from facebook who claimed that
2:11:28that uh that information was not
2:11:30accurate and needed to be in context now
2:11:33of course she wasn't willing to provide
2:11:34the context the alleged mysterious
2:11:36context do you know of any context
2:11:39that would make those data anything
2:11:41other than horrifying and deeply
2:11:43disturbing
2:11:46engagement based ranking and these
2:11:48processes of amplification
2:11:50they they impact all users of facebook
2:11:53the algorithms are very smart in the
2:11:55sense that they latch on to things that
2:11:57people want to continue to engage with
2:11:59and unfortunately in the case of teen
2:12:00girls and things like self-harm
2:12:03they develop these feedback cycles where
2:12:05children are using instagram as to
2:12:07self-soothe but then are exposed to more
2:12:09and more content that makes them hate
2:12:11themselves
2:12:12this is the thing where we can't say 80
2:12:13percent of kids are okay we need to say
2:12:15how do we save all the kids
2:12:18the wall street journal reported that
2:12:20mark zuckerberg was personally aware of
2:12:22this research do you have any
2:12:24information one way or the other as to
2:12:26mr zuckerberg's awareness of the
2:12:27research um we have a uh excuse me um
2:12:31one of the documents included in the
2:12:32disclosures it details something called
2:12:35project daisy which is an initiative to
2:12:37remove likes off of instagram the
2:12:39internal research showed that removing
2:12:41likes off instagram is not effective as
2:12:43long as you leave comments on those
2:12:45posts and yet the research directly
2:12:48presented to mark zuckerberg said we
2:12:50should still pursue this as a feature to
2:12:53launch even though it's not effective
2:12:55because the government journalists and
2:12:57academics want us to do this like it
2:12:59would get us positive points with the
2:13:01public
2:13:03that kind that kind of duplicity is why
2:13:05we need to have more transparency and
2:13:08why if we want to have a system that is
2:13:10uh coherent with democracy we must have
2:13:12public oversight from congress
2:13:15do you know if facebook any of the
2:13:16research it conducted attempted to
2:13:18quantify how many teenage girls may have
2:13:21taken their lives because of facebook's
2:13:23products
2:13:24i am not aware of that research
2:13:27do you know if facebook made any changes
2:13:29when they got back that 13 of british
2:13:31users and six percent of american users
2:13:34traced their desire to kill themselves
2:13:35to instagram do you know if they made
2:13:37any changes
2:13:38in response to that research to try to
2:13:42correct or mitigate that i found it very
2:13:44surprising that when antonia davis was
2:13:46confronted with this research last week
2:13:47she couldn't enumerate
2:13:49a five-point plan a 10-point plan of the
2:13:51actions that they took i also find it
2:13:54shocking that one once facebook had this
2:13:55research it didn't disclose it to the
2:13:57public because this is the kind of thing
2:13:59that should have oversight from congress
2:14:01so when you were at facebook were there
2:14:03discussions about how to respond to this
2:14:05this research um i did not work directly
2:14:07on
2:14:08issues concerning children these are
2:14:09just documents that were freely
2:14:10available in the company so i'm not
2:14:12aware of that okay
2:14:14do you have thoughts as to what kind of
2:14:16changes facebook could make
2:14:19to reduce or eliminate these harms
2:14:22you mentioned earlier concerns around
2:14:24free speech a lot of the things that i
2:14:26advocate for are around changing the
2:14:29mechanisms of amplification not around
2:14:31picking winners and losers in the
2:14:33marketplace of ideas so probably explain
2:14:35what that means oh sure um so like i
2:14:38mentioned before you know like how on
2:14:40twitter if you have to click through on
2:14:41a link before you re-share it
2:14:43small actions like that friction don't
2:14:46require picking good ideas and bad ideas
2:14:49they just make the platform less twitchy
2:14:51less reactive and facebook's internal
2:14:53research says that each one of those
2:14:54small actions
2:14:56dramatically reduces misinformation hate
2:14:59speech and violence inciting content on
2:15:01the platform so and we're running out of
2:15:03time but but on the second major topic
2:15:05of concern of facebook which is
2:15:07censorship based on what you've seen are
2:15:09you are you concerned about political
2:15:11censorship at facebook and in big tech
2:15:14i believe you cannot have a system that
2:15:17uh
2:15:18has as big an impact on society as
2:15:20facebook does today with as little
2:15:22transparency as it does
2:15:24i am a strong proponent of chronological
2:15:26ranking ordering by time with a little
2:15:29bit of spammed emotion because i think
2:15:31um
2:15:33we don't want computers deciding what we
2:15:35focus on we should have software that is
2:15:37human scaled where humans have
2:15:39conversations together not computers
2:15:41facilitating who we get to hear from so
2:15:43how could we get more transparency what
2:15:45would produce that
2:15:47i strongly encourage the development of
2:15:49some kind of regulatory body that could
2:15:52work with academics work with
2:15:54researchers work with other government
2:15:55agencies to
2:15:57synthesize requests for data that are
2:15:59privacy conscious this is an area that
2:16:01i'm really passionate about um
2:16:04because right now no one can force
2:16:06facebook to disclose data and facebook
2:16:08has been stonewalling us or even worse
2:16:10they gave inaccurate data to researchers
2:16:12as the scandal recently what data should
2:16:15they turn over my times expired so um
2:16:18uh for example um
2:16:21even data as simple as what integrity
2:16:23systems exist today and how well do they
2:16:25perform
2:16:26like there are lots and lots of people
2:16:28who facebook is conveying around the
2:16:30world that that facebook safety systems
2:16:33apply to their language and those people
2:16:35aren't aware that they're using a raw
2:16:38original dangerous version of facebook
2:16:40just basic actions that like
2:16:42transparency would make a huge
2:16:43difference thank
2:16:44you
2:16:46thanks senator cruz senator loomis
2:16:50thank you mr chairman and thank you for
2:16:52your testimony
2:16:55if you were in my seat today instead of
2:16:57your seat
2:16:58what documents or unanswered questions
2:17:01would you seek
2:17:03from facebook especially as it relates
2:17:05to children
2:17:07but even generally speaking
2:17:10i think any research regarding what
2:17:12facebook does problematic use i.e the
2:17:15addictiveness of the product is of vital
2:17:17importance and anything around what
2:17:19facebook knows about
2:17:21parents lack of knowledge about the
2:17:23platform
2:17:24i only know about the documents that i
2:17:27have seen right i did not work on teens
2:17:30or
2:17:30child safety myself but in the documents
2:17:33that i read facebook articulates the
2:17:35idea that parents today are not aware of
2:17:37how dangerous instagram is and they
2:17:40because they themselves did not live
2:17:41through these experiences they can't
2:17:43coach their kids on basic safety things
2:17:46and so at a minimum facebook shaft to
2:17:48disclose what it knows in that context
2:17:50okay so we're trying to protect
2:17:54individuals data that they're gathering
2:17:56have data privacy
2:17:59but have transparency
2:18:02in the manner in which
2:18:05the data is used
2:18:08can we bridge that gap
2:18:11imagine um i i think we reasonable
2:18:14people can have a conversation on how
2:18:16many people need to see a piece of
2:18:17content before it's not really private
2:18:19like if a hundred thousand people see
2:18:21something is it private if 25 000 people
2:18:24see it is it private just disclosing the
2:18:27most popular content on the platform
2:18:29including statistics around what factors
2:18:32went into the promotion of that content
2:18:34would cause radically more transparency
2:18:37than we have today on how facebook
2:18:38chooses what we get to focus on how they
2:18:40shape our reality
2:18:42okay if if our focus is protecting the
2:18:45first amendment and our rights to free
2:18:47speech while
2:18:49very carefully regulating
2:18:53data privacy
2:18:58i've heard there there are a number of
2:18:59things that are being discussed in
2:19:01congress everything from
2:19:04antitrust laws
2:19:06to
2:19:07uh calling facebook a utility
2:19:10to
2:19:11the idea that you just raised of a
2:19:15regulatory board of some sort
2:19:18that has authority to
2:19:23through understanding of the algorithms
2:19:26and how they're used and other uh
2:19:28mechanisms that create what we see
2:19:32the
2:19:33the face of facebook so to speak um
2:19:38tell me a little more about how you
2:19:39envisioned that board working
2:19:42what is the in your mind based on your
2:19:45understanding of the company and the ill
2:19:50consequences
2:19:53what is the best approach to bridging
2:19:55the gap between keeping speech free
2:19:59and protecting individual privacy with
2:20:02regard to data
2:20:04um so i think those issues are um they
2:20:06are independent issues so we can talk
2:20:08about free speech first which is um
2:20:11having more transparency like facebook
2:20:13has solutions today that are not
2:20:15content-based and i am a strong advocate
2:20:18for non-content-based solutions because
2:20:21those solutions will also then protect
2:20:23the most vulnerable people in the world
2:20:25in a place like ethiopia where they
2:20:27speak six languages
2:20:28if you have something that focuses on
2:20:30good ideas and bad ideas those systems
2:20:32don't work in diverse places so
2:20:34investing in
2:20:36non-content-based ways to slow the
2:20:38platform down
2:20:40not only protects our freedom of speech
2:20:42it protects people's lives the second
2:20:43question is around privacy and this
2:20:45question of how can we have oversight
2:20:47and have privacy there is lots and lots
2:20:49of research on how to abstract data sets
2:20:52so you're not showing people's names you
2:20:54might not even be showing the content of
2:20:55their post you might be showing data
2:20:57that is about the content of their post
2:20:59but not the post itself there are many
2:21:01ways to structure these data sets that
2:21:03are privacy conscious and be the fact
2:21:06that facebook has walled off the ability
2:21:08to see even basic things about how the
2:21:10platform performs or in the case of
2:21:12their past academic research releasing
2:21:14inaccurate data
2:21:16or not being clear about how they pulled
2:21:18that data is just part of a pattern of
2:21:20behavior of facebook hiding behind walls
2:21:22and operating in the shadows and they
2:21:24have far too much power in our society
2:21:26to be allowed to continue to operate
2:21:27that way
2:21:29well i i had heard you make the analogy
2:21:31earlier to the tobacco industry and i
2:21:34think that that's an appropriate analogy
2:21:37um
2:21:38i i really believe we're searching for
2:21:43the best way
2:21:44to address the problem
2:21:46um and i'm i i'm not sure that it is the
2:21:51heavy hands like breaking up companies
2:21:54or
2:21:56calling them a utility
2:22:00which is why your approach
2:22:03of integrating people who understand
2:22:06the math and the uses of the math
2:22:09uh with uh protecting privacy
2:22:12uh it is intriguing to me
2:22:15so the more
2:22:16information that you can provide to us
2:22:20about
2:22:21how that might work to actually address
2:22:24the problem
2:22:25i i think would be helpful so um in my
2:22:28case this is an invitation to you
2:22:30uh to uh provide to my office or the
2:22:34committee um
2:22:36information about how we can get at the
2:22:38root of the problem that you've
2:22:40identified and can document
2:22:45and
2:22:48save people's privacy
2:22:51so uh i extend that invitation to you
2:22:54and i thank you for your testimony mr
2:22:56chairman i yield back
2:22:58thanks senator lomas uh
2:23:00senator sullivan
2:23:06thank you mr chairman and um
2:23:09i want to thank our witness here it's
2:23:11been a good hearing a lot of information
2:23:13has been learned
2:23:16particularly on the issue of how this is
2:23:18impacting our kids
2:23:19i think
2:23:21we're going to look back
2:23:2220 years from now
2:23:25and
2:23:26all of us are going to be like what in
2:23:28the hell were we thinking when we
2:23:30recognize the damage that's done to a
2:23:32generation
2:23:34of kids do you agree with that mrs hugin
2:23:38when facebook made statement has made
2:23:40statements in the past about how much
2:23:42benefit
2:23:43instagram is providing to kids mental
2:23:45health like kids are connecting who are
2:23:46once alone
2:23:47uh
2:23:48what i'm so surprised about that is if
2:23:50if instagram is such a positive force
2:23:53what have we have we seen a golden age
2:23:55of teenage mental health in the last 10
2:23:56years no we've seen i've seen the
2:23:59opposite right we've seen escalating
2:24:00rates of suicide and depression amongst
2:24:02teenagers do you think those rates
2:24:05are at least in part driven by the
2:24:07social media phenomena there is a broad
2:24:09swath of research that supports the idea
2:24:11that usage of social media
2:24:14amplifies the risk for these mental
2:24:16health harms right now and this
2:24:17hearing's helping illuminate it
2:24:19we are seeing and facebook's on research
2:24:21shows up right yeah say that again
2:24:23and facebook's own research shows that
2:24:26right the kids are saying kids are
2:24:28saying i am unhappy when i use instagram
2:24:30and i can't stop that if i leave i'm
2:24:32afraid i'll be ostracized right and
2:24:34that's that's so sad
2:24:36so they know that
2:24:38that's what their research shows
2:24:40so what do you think drives them to i
2:24:42had this discussion with the witness
2:24:44last week
2:24:45and i said well
2:24:47you know i think they called it their
2:24:49time out or stop i said but isn't that
2:24:52incompatible with your business model
2:24:54because your business model is more time
2:24:56online more eyeballs online isn't that
2:25:00the fundamental elements of their
2:25:01business model
2:25:04facebook has had both an interesting
2:25:06opportunity and a hard challenge from
2:25:08being a closed system
2:25:09so they've had the opportunity to hide
2:25:11their problems and like often people do
2:25:14when they can hide their problems they
2:25:16get in over their heads and i think
2:25:18facebook needs an opportunity to have
2:25:20congress step in and say guess what you
2:25:22don't have to struggle by yourself
2:25:23anymore
2:25:24you don't have to hide these things from
2:25:25us you don't have to pretend they're not
2:25:26problems you can declare moral
2:25:28bankruptcy and we can figure out how to
2:25:30fix these things together because we
2:25:32solve problems together we don't solve
2:25:33them alone and by moral bankruptcy one
2:25:35of the things that i appreciate the
2:25:37phrase that the chairman and you've been
2:25:38using
2:25:39is one of those elements which is they
2:25:41know this is a problem they know it's
2:25:43actually
2:25:44impacting negatively the mental health
2:25:46of the most precious assets we have in
2:25:48america our youth our kids i have three
2:25:52daughters
2:25:55they know that that is happening and yet
2:25:58the moral bankruptcy
2:26:00from your perspective is the continued
2:26:03the continuation of this simply because
2:26:06that's how they make money i i phrase it
2:26:08slightly differently we have financial
2:26:10bankruptcy because we value people's
2:26:12lives more than we value money right the
2:26:14people get in over their heads and they
2:26:15need a process where they admit they did
2:26:17something wrong but we have a mechanism
2:26:19where we forgive them and we have a way
2:26:21for them to move forward facebook is
2:26:23stuck in a feedback loop that they
2:26:24cannot get out of they have been hiding
2:26:26this information because they feel
2:26:27trapped right like they would have come
2:26:29forward if they had solutions to these
2:26:31things
2:26:32they need to admit they did something
2:26:33wrong and they need help to solve these
2:26:35problems and that's what moral
2:26:36bankruptcy is let me ask i'm going to
2:26:38switch gears here and and this is uh
2:26:42you what's your current position right
2:26:44now in terms of its disinformation and
2:26:46counter espionage um my last role at
2:26:48facebook was encounter especially sorry
2:26:50your last role okay
2:26:52so one of the things this is a very
2:26:53different topic and um
2:26:55i only got a minute or so left but
2:26:58right now is facebook i know facebook is
2:27:01not allowed in countries like china
2:27:04but do they provide platforms
2:27:07for authoritarian or terrorists based
2:27:11leaders like
2:27:13the ayatollahs in iran that's the
2:27:15largest state-sponsored terrorism in the
2:27:17world
2:27:18or the taliban
2:27:20or xi jinping are certain my view our
2:27:23biggest rival for this century
2:27:26a communist
2:27:27party dictator who's trying to export
2:27:29his authoritarian model
2:27:31around the world
2:27:33do they provide a platform for those
2:27:37kind of
2:27:39leaders who
2:27:40in my view clearly don't hold america's
2:27:43interests in mind
2:27:46because facebook provided
2:27:48i i during my time working with the
2:27:50threat intelligence org so i was a
2:27:51product manager supporting the threat
2:27:53the counter espionage team
2:27:57my team directly worked on uh
2:27:59tracking chinese participation on the
2:28:02platform surveilling say weaker
2:28:04populations uh in places around the
2:28:06world that you could actually find the
2:28:08chinese based on them doing these kinds
2:28:10of things so facebook yeah i'm sorry um
2:28:12we also saw
2:28:14active persuasion of say the iran
2:28:16government doing espionage on other
2:28:20state actors
2:28:21so this is definitely a thing that is
2:28:22happening and i believe facebook's
2:28:24consistent understaffing of the
2:28:26counter-espionage information operations
2:28:29and counter-terrorism teams is a
2:28:30national security issue and i'm speaking
2:28:32to other parts of congress about that so
2:28:34you are saying in essence that the the
2:28:37the platform whether facebook knows it
2:28:39or not is being utilized by some of our
2:28:41adversaries in a way that helps push and
2:28:43promote
2:28:44their interests at the expense of
2:28:46americas yes facebook's so very aware
2:28:48that this is happening on the platform
2:28:50and i believe the fact that congress
2:28:51doesn't get a report of exactly how many
2:28:53people are working on these things
2:28:55internally is is unacceptable because
2:28:57you have a right to keep the american
2:28:59people safe
2:29:00great thank you very much
2:29:03thanks senator sullivan uh you may have
2:29:05just opened
2:29:06an area for another year sorry yeah
2:29:09yeah i've i have strong national
2:29:11security concerns about how facebook
2:29:12operates today well mr chairman maybe we
2:29:14should right i mean it's a i'm i'm
2:29:17not being at all facetious uh thank you
2:29:19for your questions on this
2:29:21topic and i know you have a busy
2:29:23schedule but we may want to
2:29:25discuss this issue with you members of
2:29:27our committee at least informally and if
2:29:30you'd be willing to come back for
2:29:31another hearing
2:29:32that
2:29:34certainly is within the realm of
2:29:35possibility i haven't consulted the
2:29:36ranking member but
2:29:38or the chair
2:29:40woman but
2:29:42thank you for your honesty and your
2:29:44candor on that topic
2:29:45uh senator scott
2:29:48thank you chairman um first off thanks
2:29:50for coming forward and thanks for coming
2:29:52forward in the matter that you wanted to
2:29:53have a have positive change so that's
2:29:56not always what what happens
2:29:58earlier this year i sent a letter to
2:30:00facebook and other social media
2:30:01platforms asking them to detail the
2:30:03harmful impacts the effects on mental
2:30:05health their platforms have on
2:30:07children and teens
2:30:09so your reports reveal that facebook has
2:30:11been fully aware of this
2:30:13for a while
2:30:15and the harmful impacts especially on
2:30:17young women so i think we all agree
2:30:18that's completely unacceptable
2:30:20and we've got to figure out how we
2:30:21protect
2:30:23the people that are vulnerable in this
2:30:24country from the harmful impacts of
2:30:25facebook and other social media
2:30:27platforms
2:30:28so first off do you think there should
2:30:29be
2:30:30a greater consideration for age when it
2:30:32comes to using any social media
2:30:35i strongly encourage raising age limits
2:30:37to 16 or 18 years old based on
2:30:39looking at the data around
2:30:41problematic use or addiction on the
2:30:43platform and
2:30:45children's self-regulation issues
2:30:48so
2:30:49so i think you addressed this a little
2:30:50bit but why do you think
2:30:52uh facebook didn't address this publicly
2:30:54when they they figured it out internally
2:30:56that they were having an adverse impact
2:30:57on
2:30:58young young people especially young
2:30:59women why didn't they come forward and
2:31:01say
2:31:02i've got we've got a problem we've got
2:31:03to figure this out
2:31:05i i have a huge amount of empathy for
2:31:06for facebook these are really really
2:31:08hard questions um and part of why i'm
2:31:11saying i think they feel a little a
2:31:12little trapped and isolated is
2:31:14the problems that are driving
2:31:16uh negative social comparison on
2:31:18instagram facebook's own research says
2:31:21instagram is actually distinctly worse
2:31:24than say tick tock or snapchat or reddit
2:31:27um because instagram tic talk is about
2:31:30doing fun things with your friends
2:31:32snapchat is about faces and augmented
2:31:34reality uh reddit is vaguely about ideas
2:31:38but instagram is about bodies and about
2:31:40comparing lifestyles
2:31:42and so i think there are real questions
2:31:44where like instagram would have to come
2:31:45in and think hard about their product or
2:31:47about like what is their product about
2:31:49and i think i don't think those answers
2:31:51are immediately obvious that's why i
2:31:52believe we need to solve problems
2:31:54together and not alone because
2:31:56collaborating with the public will give
2:31:57us better solutions
2:31:58so do you think facebook was trying to
2:32:00trying to mitigate the problem
2:32:04i think within the set of incentives
2:32:06that they were working within they did
2:32:07the best they could unfortunately those
2:32:09incentives are not sustainable and they
2:32:11are not acceptable uh in in our society
2:32:14do you think facebook and other social
2:32:16media platforms ought to be able to be
2:32:18required to report any harmful effects
2:32:20they have on young people
2:32:21one of the things that i found
2:32:23very interesting after the report in the
2:32:26wall street journal on teen mental
2:32:27health was that a a former executive at
2:32:30the company said facebook needs to be
2:32:32able to have private research and the
2:32:34part that i was offended by this was
2:32:36facebook has had some of this research
2:32:37on the negative effects of instagram on
2:32:39teenagers for years
2:32:40i strongly support the idea that
2:32:42facebook should have a year maybe 18
2:32:44months to have private research but
2:32:46given that they are the only people in
2:32:47the world who can do this kind of
2:32:49research
2:32:50that the public never gets to do it they
2:32:52shouldn't be allowed to keep secrets
2:32:53when people's lives are on the line
2:32:57so
2:32:58because because to be clear if they make
2:32:5940 billion a year they have the
2:33:01resources to solve these problems
2:33:03they're choosing not to solve them yeah
2:33:04did that surprise you they wouldn't put
2:33:05more effort into this no because you
2:33:07know it's going to catch up with them
2:33:08eventually right yeah
2:33:10like i mentioned earlier to senator heck
2:33:12and looper
2:33:13right coming in and having oversight
2:33:15might actually make facebook a more
2:33:17profitable company five or ten years
2:33:19from now because toxicity facebook's own
2:33:21research shows
2:33:23uh they have something called an
2:33:24integrity holdout these are people who
2:33:26don't get protections from integrity
2:33:28systems to see what happens to them
2:33:31and those people who deal with a more
2:33:33toxic painful version of facebook use
2:33:35facebook less
2:33:36and so one could could rat could reason
2:33:39a kinder friendlier more collaborative
2:33:41facebook might actually have more users
2:33:43five years from now so it's in in
2:33:45everyone's interest do you think i've
2:33:47got a bill and there's a lot of bills
2:33:48that i think we've all talked about but
2:33:50mine's called the data act it's going to
2:33:51require express consent from users for
2:33:53large platforms to use algorithms on
2:33:55somebody you agree with that
2:33:57i mean i mean what shouldn't we consent
2:34:00before they get to take our on
2:34:02everything about us and go sell it
2:34:05i like how they send things to us
2:34:07for for um selling personal data that uh
2:34:10that is an issue i believe people should
2:34:11have substantially more control over um
2:34:14uh most people are not well informed on
2:34:16what the cost the cost personal costs of
2:34:18having their data sold are and so i
2:34:20worry about um pushing that choice back
2:34:23on individual consumers um in terms of
2:34:26should people consent to working with
2:34:28algorithms um i worry that if facebook
2:34:31is allowed to uh give users the choice
2:34:35of do you want an engagement based news
2:34:37feed or do you want a chronological news
2:34:39feed like ordered by time maybe a little
2:34:41spammed emotion
2:34:42that people will choose the more
2:34:43addictive option that engagement based
2:34:45ranking even if it is leading their
2:34:48their daughters to eating disorders
2:34:50right thank you
2:34:53thanks senator scott i think we have
2:34:56concluded the first round unless we're
2:34:58missing someone
2:34:59who is
2:35:02on line
2:35:04and
2:35:05not hearing anyone
2:35:07let's go to the second round
2:35:09thank you again for your patience i know
2:35:11you
2:35:12have a hard stop i think at 1 30.
2:35:15so we'll be respectful of that
2:35:17limitation and
2:35:19i'll begin by asking a few questions
2:35:21first let me say
2:35:23senator klobuchar
2:35:25very
2:35:27aptly
2:35:28raised with you
2:35:30the principal obstacle to our achieving
2:35:32legislative reform in the past which is
2:35:34the
2:35:35tons of money
2:35:38spent on lobbyists and other
2:35:41kinds of
2:35:43influence peddling
2:35:46to use a pejorative word that is so
2:35:48evident here in the united states
2:35:50congress
2:35:51some of it's dark money some of it is
2:35:53very overt
2:35:55but
2:35:57i guess the point i'd like to make to
2:35:58you personally is that
2:36:00your being here
2:36:03really
2:36:04sends a profound message to
2:36:07our nation that one person can really
2:36:09make a difference
2:36:10one person standing up speaking out
2:36:13can overcome
2:36:15a lot of those obstacles for us and you
2:36:16have crystallized
2:36:18in a way our
2:36:21consciousness here you have
2:36:22been a catalyst i think for change in a
2:36:25way that
2:36:26we haven't seen and i've been working on
2:36:28these issues for
2:36:3110 15 years
2:36:34and you have raised awareness in a way
2:36:36that i think is very unique
2:36:39so
2:36:39uh thank you not only for your risk
2:36:41taking and your
2:36:43courage and strength in standing up but
2:36:45also
2:36:46for the effect that it has had
2:36:49uh and i also want to make another point
2:36:50you can tell me whether i'm correct or
2:36:52not
2:36:54i think there are other whistleblowers
2:36:55out there
2:36:57i think there are other truth tellers
2:36:59in the tech world
2:37:01who want to come forward and i think
2:37:02you're leading by example
2:37:05i think you are showing them that
2:37:07there's a path
2:37:09to make this industry more responsible
2:37:13and
2:37:14more caring about kids
2:37:16and about the nature of our public
2:37:18discourse generally are about the
2:37:20strength of our democracy and i think
2:37:22you
2:37:23have given them
2:37:25a boost
2:37:27those whistleblowers out there
2:37:29in potentially coming forward i think
2:37:31that's tremendously important i think
2:37:33also
2:37:34again you can tell me if i'm wrong
2:37:36there are a lot of people on facebook
2:37:38who are cheering for you
2:37:41because
2:37:44there are public reports and i know of
2:37:47some of my
2:37:49friends in this world who tell me
2:37:52that
2:37:53they're people working for facebook who
2:37:55wish
2:37:56they had
2:37:57the opportunity and the courage to come
2:37:59forward as you have done because they
2:38:02feel
2:38:03a lot of reservations about the way that
2:38:05facebook has used the platform used
2:38:08algorithms
2:38:10used
2:38:11content and pushed it on kids in this
2:38:14way
2:38:16so
2:38:17those are
2:38:19sort of hypotheses
2:38:22that i hope you can confirm
2:38:26and i also would like to ask you
2:38:29because a lot of parents are watching
2:38:32right now
2:38:34so you've advised us
2:38:36on what you think we should do the
2:38:37reforms some of them that you think we
2:38:39should adopt stronger oversight
2:38:42authorized by congress
2:38:44better disclosure
2:38:46because right now
2:38:48facebook essentially is a black box yes
2:38:50for most of america
2:38:52facebook is a black box
2:38:55that's designed by mark zuckerberg
2:38:58incorporated
2:39:01mark zuckerberg and
2:39:02his immediate codery
2:39:04and the buck stops with him
2:39:08and reform of section 203 so there's
2:39:12some legal responsibility so people have
2:39:14a day in court some kind of recourse
2:39:18legally when they're harmed by facebook
2:39:21because right now it has this broad
2:39:23immunity most of america has no idea
2:39:27essentially you can't sue facebook
2:39:30you have no recourse
2:39:33most america doesn't know
2:39:35about section 230
2:39:38and
2:39:39if you
2:39:41pushed
2:39:42a lot of members of congress they
2:39:43wouldn't know either
2:39:45it's actually slightly worse than that
2:39:47they facebook made a statement in a
2:39:49legal proceeding recently where they
2:39:50said they had the right to mislead the
2:39:52court because they had immunity
2:39:54right that 230 gave them immunity so why
2:39:57should they have to tell the truth about
2:39:58what they're showing
2:39:59which is
2:40:00kind of
2:40:01shocking
2:40:03well it is shocking to a lawyer yeah
2:40:06which some of us are
2:40:08uh it's also
2:40:10utter
2:40:12disregard and contempt for the rule of
2:40:14law and for the very legal structure
2:40:17that gives them
2:40:19that kind of protection so
2:40:21it's
2:40:22kind of a new low
2:40:25in
2:40:27corporate
2:40:28conduct at least in court
2:40:32so you've you provided us with some of
2:40:34the reforms that you think
2:40:36are
2:40:37important and i think that the oversight
2:40:40goes a long way because it in turn would
2:40:42make public
2:40:44uh a lot of what is going on
2:40:46in this black box
2:40:48but for now
2:40:52since a lot of teens and
2:40:54tweens will
2:40:56be going home tonight
2:40:57as you said
2:41:00to endure the bullying
2:41:03the eating disorders
2:41:05the invitations to
2:41:08feel insecure about themselves
2:41:10heightened anxiety they have to live
2:41:12with the real world as it exists right
2:41:14now and they will be
2:41:16haunted for their lifetimes by these
2:41:19experiences
2:41:21what would you tell parents
2:41:23right now
2:41:24what would you advise them
2:41:26about what they can do because they need
2:41:28more tools
2:41:29and some of the proposals that have been
2:41:31mentioned here would give parents
2:41:34more tools to protect their children
2:41:36right now a lot of parents tell me
2:41:39they
2:41:40feel powerless
2:41:42they need more information they're
2:41:46way behind their kids and their
2:41:47adeptness online
2:41:52and
2:41:53they feel that
2:41:54they need to be empowered
2:41:56in some way to protect their kids in the
2:41:58real world right now
2:42:00in real time so i
2:42:03offer you that
2:42:05open-ended opportunity to
2:42:07talk to us a little bit about your
2:42:09thoughts
2:42:10very rarely do you have one of these
2:42:12generational shifts where
2:42:14uh the the generation that leads like
2:42:17parents who who who guide their children
2:42:20have such um a different set of
2:42:22experiences that they don't have the
2:42:24context to support their children in a
2:42:27safe way
2:42:28there is an active need for
2:42:31schools or or maybe the
2:42:34national institutes of health
2:42:35to to make established information where
2:42:39if parents want to learn on how they can
2:42:40support their kids it should be easy for
2:42:42them to know what is constructive and
2:42:44not constructive
2:42:45because
2:42:46facebook's own research says kids today
2:42:48feel like they are struggling alone with
2:42:50all these issues
2:42:51because their parents can't guide them
2:42:54and one of the things i'm sad is when i
2:42:55look on twitter is when people blame the
2:42:57parents for these problems with facebook
2:42:59they say just take your kid's phone away
2:43:01and the reality is those issues are a
2:43:03lot more complicated than that
2:43:05um and so
2:43:06we need to support parents because right
2:43:08now if facebook won't protect the kids
2:43:11we at least need to help the parents to
2:43:12protect the kids
2:43:14if parents are anguished they are
2:43:17about this issue parents are hardly
2:43:22uncaring they
2:43:24need the tools they need to be empowered
2:43:27and
2:43:28i think that the
2:43:31major encouragement for reforms is going
2:43:33to come from
2:43:35those parents
2:43:36and
2:43:38you have pointed out i think in general
2:43:41but i'd like you to just confirm for me
2:43:45this research
2:43:46and the documents containing that
2:43:48research
2:43:50is not only findings and conclusions
2:43:53also recommendations for changes
2:43:57what i hear you saying is that again and
2:44:00again and again
2:44:01these recommendations were just rejected
2:44:04or disregarded correct
2:44:07there is a pattern of behavior that i
2:44:08saw at facebook of facebook choosing to
2:44:11prioritize its profits over people
2:44:13and any time that facebook faced even
2:44:15tiny hits to growth like point one
2:44:18percent of sessions
2:44:19one percent of views that it shows its
2:44:23profits over safety
2:44:24and you mentioned i think bonuses tied
2:44:27to
2:44:28downstream msis decor msi yeah could you
2:44:32explain what you meant um so msi is
2:44:34meaningful social interaction
2:44:36uh facebook's internal governance is
2:44:38very much based around metrics so
2:44:40facebook is incredibly flat to the point
2:44:42where they have the largest open floor
2:44:44plan office in the world it's a quarter
2:44:45of a mile long and one room right they
2:44:48believe in flat
2:44:49and instead of having internal
2:44:51governance they have metrics that people
2:44:53try to move
2:44:54in a world like that it doesn't matter
2:44:56that we now have multiple years of data
2:44:58saying msi may be encouraging bad
2:45:01content might be making spaces where
2:45:03people are are scared where they are
2:45:06shown information that puts them at risk
2:45:10it's so hard to dislodge a ruler like
2:45:13that that a yardstick
2:45:16that
2:45:17you end up in the situation where
2:45:19because no one is taking leadership like
2:45:20no one is intentionally designing these
2:45:22systems it's just many many people
2:45:24running in parallel all moving the
2:45:25metric that these problems get amplified
2:45:28and amplified and amplified and no one
2:45:30steps in to bring the solutions
2:45:33and i just want to finish and then i
2:45:34think we've been joined by senator young
2:45:38and then we'll go
2:45:40to
2:45:40senator blackburn and senator klobuchar
2:45:43um
2:45:45you know i spent a number of years as an
2:45:48attorney general helping to lead
2:45:50litigation against big tobacco
2:45:53and
2:45:54i came to
2:45:56hear from a lot of
2:45:59smokers
2:46:00how grateful they were
2:46:02ironically and unexpectedly that someone
2:46:05was fighting big tobacco because they
2:46:06felt they had been victimized as
2:46:09children they started smoking when they
2:46:11were 7 8
2:46:1212 years old because big tobacco was
2:46:15hooking them
2:46:17and as we developed the research very
2:46:19methodically and purposefully
2:46:22addicting them at that early age when
2:46:26they
2:46:27believed
2:46:29that
2:46:30they
2:46:31would make themselves more popular
2:46:34that they would be cool and hip if they
2:46:37began smoking and then nicotine
2:46:39hooked them now physiologically nicotine
2:46:43has addictive properties
2:46:47what is it about
2:46:48facebook's tactics
2:46:50of hooking young people
2:46:53that makes it similar to what
2:46:56big tobacco
2:46:57has done
2:47:00facebook's own research about instagram
2:47:03contains quotes from kids saying
2:47:06i feel bad when i use instagram
2:47:09but i also feel like i can't stop right
2:47:12i know that the more time i spend on
2:47:14this the worse i feel but like i just
2:47:16can't like that they want the next click
2:47:18they want the next like they the the
2:47:21dopamine you know the little hits all
2:47:22the time
2:47:24and
2:47:26i i feel a lot of pain for those kids
2:47:28right like they they say they fear being
2:47:30ostracized if they step away from the
2:47:32platform so imagine you're in the
2:47:34situation in this relationship where
2:47:36every time you open the app it makes you
2:47:37feel worse but you also fear
2:47:40isolation if you don't
2:47:42um i think there's a huge opportunity
2:47:44here to make social media that makes
2:47:45kids feel good not feel bad and that we
2:47:48have an obligation to our youth to make
2:47:50sure that they're safe online
2:47:52thank you senator young
2:48:01thank you for your compelling testimony
2:48:03in that testimony you discuss how
2:48:06facebook generates self-harm and and
2:48:09self-hate
2:48:11especially among vulnerable groups like
2:48:14teenage girls
2:48:16i happen to be a father of four kids um
2:48:19three daughters two of whom
2:48:21are teenagers and
2:48:23um
2:48:24as you as you just alluded to most
2:48:26adults myself included
2:48:28i've never been a teenager
2:48:30during the age of facebook instagram and
2:48:33these other social media platforms
2:48:36and therefore i think it can be really
2:48:39hard
2:48:40for many of us to fully appreciate the
2:48:41impact that certain posts may have
2:48:45in including i would add
2:48:48on a team's mental health
2:48:50so can you discuss the short and
2:48:53long-term consequences of body image
2:48:56issues on these platforms please
2:49:04the patterns that children establish in
2:49:06their teenage years live with them for
2:49:07the rest of their lives the way they
2:49:09conceptualize who they are how they
2:49:11conceptualize how they interact with
2:49:12other people are patterns and habits
2:49:14they will take with them as they become
2:49:16adults as they themselves raise children
2:49:19i'm very scared about the upcoming
2:49:21generation because
2:49:24when you and i interact in person and i
2:49:26say something mean to you and i see you
2:49:28wince or i see you cry
2:49:30that makes me less likely to do it the
2:49:32next time right that's a feedback cycle
2:49:35online kids don't get those cues
2:49:37and they learn to be incredibly cruel to
2:49:39each other
2:49:40and they normalize it
2:49:42and i'm scared of what will their lives
2:49:44look like where they grow up with the
2:49:46idea that it's okay to be treated badly
2:49:49by people who allegedly care about them
2:49:51that's a scary future
2:49:55very scary future
2:49:57and i see some evidence of of that as to
2:50:00so many parents
2:50:02um on a on a regular basis are are there
2:50:05other specific issues of significant
2:50:08consequence that the general public may
2:50:11not be fully aware of that are impacting
2:50:14um vulnerable groups that you you just
2:50:16like to elevate
2:50:18uh during this testimony
2:50:20one of the things that's hard uh
2:50:23for people who don't look at the data of
2:50:24social networks every day it can be hard
2:50:27to conceptualize the distribution
2:50:29patterns of harms or just of usage that
2:50:33there are these things called power laws
2:50:34it means that a small number of users
2:50:36are extremely intensely engaged on any
2:50:39given topic and most people are just
2:50:41lightly engaged
2:50:43when you look at things like
2:50:44misinformation facebook knows that the
2:50:46people who are exposed to the most
2:50:47misinformation are people who are
2:50:50recently widowed divorced moved to a new
2:50:52city
2:50:54are isolated in some other way
2:50:57when i worked on civic misinformation we
2:50:59discussed the idea of the misinformation
2:51:01burden like the idea that when people
2:51:03are exposed to ideas that are not true
2:51:05over and over again it erodes their
2:51:07ability to to connect with the community
2:51:10at large because they no longer adhere
2:51:12to facts that are consensus reality
2:51:16um
2:51:17the fact that facebook knows that it's
2:51:19most vulnerable users people who
2:51:20recently widowed like that they're
2:51:22isolated that that the systems that are
2:51:24meant to keep them safe like demoting
2:51:26misinformation stop working when people
2:51:28look at 2000 posts a day
2:51:31right and i just it breaks my heart the
2:51:33idea that that these rabbit holes would
2:51:35suck people down and then make it hard
2:51:36to connect with others
2:51:40so miss miss hodgin
2:51:42i desperately want to
2:51:45uh which is the american impulse i want
2:51:47to solve this problem
2:51:48and i
2:51:51i very much uh believe that uh congress
2:51:54not only has a role but has a
2:51:55responsibility to
2:51:58figure this out i don't pretend to have
2:52:00all the answers
2:52:03i would value your
2:52:04opinion though
2:52:06as to whether you believe that breaking
2:52:08up facebook
2:52:09would solve any of the problems that
2:52:11you've discussed today you think it
2:52:14would
2:52:15so as an algorithmic specialist so this
2:52:17is someone who designs algorithmic
2:52:19experiences i'm actually against the
2:52:21breaking up of facebook because even
2:52:23looking inside of just facebook itself
2:52:25so not even facebook and instagram you
2:52:27see the problems of engagement based
2:52:29ranking repeat themselves
2:52:30so the problems here are about the
2:52:32design of algorithms of ai and the idea
2:52:35that ai is not intelligent
2:52:38and if you break up instagram and
2:52:39facebook from each other it's likely so
2:52:41i used to work on pinterest
2:52:44and the thing that we faced from a
2:52:45business model perspective was that
2:52:46advertisers didn't want to learn
2:52:48multiple advertising platforms
2:52:51that they wanted to learn they got one
2:52:53platform for instagram and facebook and
2:52:55whatever and learning a second one for
2:52:56pinterest pinterest made radically fewer
2:52:59dollars per user and what i'm scared of
2:53:01is right now facebook is the internet
2:53:03for lots of the world if you go to
2:53:05africa the internet is facebook if you
2:53:08split facebook and instagram apart it's
2:53:10likely that most advertising dollars
2:53:11will go to instagram and facebook will
2:53:13continue to be this frankenstein that is
2:53:16altering like that is endangering lives
2:53:18around the world only now there won't be
2:53:20money to fund it and so i think
2:53:22oversight and
2:53:23oversight and
2:53:25finding collaborative solutions with
2:53:27congress is going to be key because
2:53:28these systems are going to continue to
2:53:30exist and be dangerous even if broken up
2:53:34thank you thank you
2:53:37senator blackburn
2:53:40thank you mr chairman
2:53:42uh
2:53:44i have a text that was just put up by
2:53:47facebook spokesperson
2:53:50it says just pointing out the fact that
2:53:54uh francis hogan did not work on child
2:53:57safety or instagram or research these
2:54:00issues and has no direct knowledge of
2:54:03the topic from her work at facebook
2:54:06so i will simply say this to mr stone if
2:54:10facebook wants to discuss their
2:54:13targeting of children
2:54:15if they want to discuss
2:54:18their practices of
2:54:21privacy invasion or violations of the
2:54:24children online privacy act i am
2:54:27extending to you an invitation to step
2:54:31forward be sworn in and testify
2:54:35before this committee we would be
2:54:38pleased to hear from you and welcome
2:54:41your testimony
2:54:44one quick question for you what's the
2:54:46biggest threat to facebook's existence
2:54:48is agreed
2:54:50is it
2:54:51regulators
2:54:53is it becoming
2:54:55extinct or obsolete for teenage
2:54:59users what is the biggest threat to
2:55:02their existence
2:55:04i think the fact that facebook is driven
2:55:06so much by metrics and that these lead
2:55:08to
2:55:09a very heavy emphasis on short-termism
2:55:12that
2:55:12every little individual decision may
2:55:15seem like it helps with growth but if it
2:55:17makes it more and more toxic platform
2:55:19that people don't actually enjoy like
2:55:21when they passed meaningful social
2:55:22interact meaningful social interactions
2:55:24back in 2018 facebook's own research
2:55:27said that users said it made it less
2:55:29meaningful
2:55:30right i think this
2:55:32aggregated set of short-term decisions
2:55:34endangers facebook's future
2:55:37but sometimes we need to pull it away
2:55:39from
2:55:40business as usual help it write new
2:55:42rules if we wanted to be successful in
2:55:44the future so they can't see the forest
2:55:46for the yes yes
2:55:48thank you
2:55:49and i know senator klobuchar is waiting
2:55:52so i'll yield my time back and i thank
2:55:54you thanks senator blackburn
2:55:57thank you very much and thank you to
2:55:58both of you for leadership and all three
2:56:01of us are on the judiciary committee so
2:56:03we're also working on a host of other in
2:56:05issues including
2:56:07the app store issues
2:56:10which is unrelated to facebook actually
2:56:13uh including issues relating to
2:56:15uh dominant platforms when they promote
2:56:17their own content or engage in
2:56:19exclusionary conduct which i know is not
2:56:21our topic today i see the thumbs up from
2:56:24you ms hogan which i appreciate um and i
2:56:26think this idea of establishing some
2:56:29rules of the road uh for these tech
2:56:31platforms um goes beyond
2:56:34the kid protection that we so dearly
2:56:37need to do and i just want to make sure
2:56:39you agree with me on that totally uh i
2:56:41was shocked when i saw the new york
2:56:43times story a couple weeks ago about
2:56:44facebook using its own platform to
2:56:46promote positive news about itself
2:56:48i was like wow
2:56:51i knew you shaped our reality i wasn't
2:56:52aware it was that much right and that's
2:56:54a lot of the work uh that we're doing
2:56:56over there so i want to get to something
2:56:58senator young was talking about
2:56:59misinformation and senator lujan and i
2:57:02have put together a
2:57:03an exception actually to the 230
2:57:05immunity when it comes to
2:57:07vaccine misinformation in the middle of
2:57:09a public health crisis
2:57:11last week youtube announced it was
2:57:13swiftly banning all anti-vaccine
2:57:17misinformation and i've long called on
2:57:19facebook to take similar steps they've
2:57:21take taken some steps
2:57:23but do you think they can remove this
2:57:25content and
2:57:26do that they put sufficient resources we
2:57:29know the effect of this we know that
2:57:30over half the people that haven't gotten
2:57:32the vaccines it's because of something
2:57:34that they've seen on social media i know
2:57:36the guy i walked into a cafe and said
2:57:38his mother-in-law wouldn't get a vaccine
2:57:40because she thought a microchip would be
2:57:41planted in her arm could you
2:57:44which is false i'm just saying that for
2:57:46the record here um could in case it gets
2:57:48put on social media could you uh talk
2:57:51about are there
2:57:53are there enough resources to stop this
2:57:55from happening
2:57:56um i do not believe facebook ad is
2:57:58currently structured has the capability
2:58:00to stop vaccine misinformation because
2:58:02they're overly reliant on artificial
2:58:04intelligence systems that they
2:58:05themselves say will likely never get
2:58:08more than 10 to 20 percent of content
2:58:10there you go
2:58:11and yet it's a company that what the cap
2:58:14over a trillion dollars from the world's
2:58:16biggest companies that we've ever known
2:58:18and that's what really bothers me here
2:58:21uh senator lujan and i also have pointed
2:58:23out
2:58:24the issue with content moderators does
2:58:26facebook have enough content moderations
2:58:28for content in spanish and other
2:58:31languages besides english
2:58:34one of the things that was disclosed
2:58:38we have we have documentation that shows
2:58:40how much operational investment there
2:58:41was by different languages and it showed
2:58:44a consistent pattern of under investment
2:58:47in languages that are not english
2:58:49um i
2:58:51am deeply concerned about facebook's
2:58:53ability to operate in a safe way in
2:58:55languages beyond maybe the top 20 in the
2:58:57world
2:58:58okay thank you uh we go back to eating
2:59:01disorders today you've said that you
2:59:02have documents indicating facebook is
2:59:04doing studies on kids under 13 even
2:59:07though technically no kids under 13 are
2:59:09permitted on the platform
2:59:11uh the potential for eating disorder
2:59:13content to be shown to these children
2:59:14raises serious concern senator
2:59:16blumenthal's been working on this i've
2:59:18long been focused on this eating
2:59:20disorder issue given the mortality rates
2:59:22are you aware of studies facebook has
2:59:25conducted about whether kids under 13
2:59:27under 13
2:59:28on the platform are nudged towards
2:59:30content related to eating disorders or
2:59:32unhealthy diet practices cnn also did
2:59:34investigation on this front
2:59:37i have not seen specific studies
2:59:39regarding
2:59:41eating disorders in under the age of 13
2:59:43but i have seen research that indicates
2:59:46that they are aware
2:59:47that teenagers coach tweens who are on
2:59:51the platform
2:59:52to not reveal too much
2:59:54to um not post too often and that they
2:59:57have categorized that as a myth that you
2:59:59can't be authentic on the platform
3:00:02and that the marketing team should talk
3:00:04should try to advertise to teenagers to
3:00:06stop coaching tweens that way
3:00:08um so we i believe we've shared that
3:00:10document with congress exactly well
3:00:12thank you and we'll be looking more
3:00:14speaking of the research issue
3:00:16um facebook has tried to downplay uh the
3:00:19internal research that was done saying
3:00:21it was unreal
3:00:22reliable
3:00:24it seems to me that they're trying to
3:00:26mislead us there the research was
3:00:28extensive surveying hundreds of
3:00:29thousands of people traveling around the
3:00:31world to interview users in your view
3:00:33are the
3:00:34internal researchers at facebook who
3:00:36examine how users are affected by the
3:00:38platform
3:00:41is their work thorough
3:00:43are they experienced is it fair for
3:00:45facebook to throw them under the bus
3:00:48facebook has one of the top ranked
3:00:49research programs in in the tech
3:00:51industry like they've invested more in
3:00:53it than and i than i believe any other
3:00:55social media platform and
3:00:57the some of the biggest heroes inside
3:00:59the company are the researchers because
3:01:01they are boldly asking real questions
3:01:03and being willing to say awkward truths
3:01:06um the fact that facebook is throwing
3:01:07them under the bus i think is
3:01:09unacceptable and i just want researchers
3:01:11to know that i stand with them and that
3:01:13i see them or maybe we should say as the
3:01:15name of one book the ugly truth
3:01:17uh what about facebook blocking
3:01:19researchers at nyu from accessing the
3:01:22platform does that concern you these are
3:01:24outside researchers um i am deeply
3:01:26concerned so for context for those who
3:01:28are not familiar with this research
3:01:30there are researchers at nyu who because
3:01:32facebook
3:01:33does not publish
3:01:36enough data on political advertisements
3:01:37or how they are distributed these are
3:01:39advertisements that influence our
3:01:41democracy and how it operates
3:01:44they created a plug-in that allowed
3:01:46people to opt in to volunteer
3:01:48to help collect this data collectively
3:01:50and facebook lashed out at them and even
3:01:52banned some of their individual accounts
3:01:54the fact that facebook is so scared of
3:01:56even basic transparency that it it goes
3:01:59out of its way to block researchers who
3:02:01are asking awkward questions shows you
3:02:03the need for congressional oversight and
3:02:05why we need to do federal research and
3:02:07federal regulations on this very good
3:02:09thank you thank you for your work
3:02:12thanks senator klobuchar senator markey
3:02:17thank you
3:02:18thank you mr chairman thank you for your
3:02:21incredible leadership on this issue
3:02:25as early as 2012
3:02:27facebook has wanted to allow children
3:02:30under the age of 12
3:02:31to use its platform
3:02:33at that time in 2012 i wrote a letter to
3:02:36facebook
3:02:37asking questions about what data it
3:02:39planned to collect and whether the
3:02:41company intended to serve targeted ads
3:02:44at children
3:02:45now here we are nine years later
3:02:48debating the very same issues
3:02:51today
3:02:52ms hogan
3:02:53you've made it abundantly clear why
3:02:55facebook wants to bring more children
3:02:57onto the platform
3:02:59it's to hook them early just like
3:03:01cigarettes so that they become lifelong
3:03:02users so facebook's profits increase
3:03:06yet we should also ask why in the last
3:03:09nine years
3:03:10has the company not launched facebook
3:03:12for kids or instagram for kids after all
3:03:15from the testimony here today facebook
3:03:17appears to act without regard to any
3:03:19moral code
3:03:20or any conscience or instead puts profit
3:03:23about people profit above all else the
3:03:26reason why facebook hasn't officially
3:03:29permitted kids 12 and under to use its
3:03:32platform is because the child online
3:03:35privacy protection act
3:03:37of 1998 that i'm the author of exists
3:03:41because there is a privacy law on the
3:03:43books which i authored that gives the
3:03:45federal trade commission regulatory
3:03:47power to stop websites and social media
3:03:50companies from invading the privacy of
3:03:53our children 12 and under
3:03:56that's why we need to expand the child
3:03:58online privacy protection act that's why
3:04:01we need to pass
3:04:03the kids act that senator blumenthal and
3:04:06i have introduced and why we need an
3:04:08algorithmic justice act
3:04:10to pass because the absence of
3:04:12regulation
3:04:13leads to harming teen stoking division
3:04:16damaging our democracy
3:04:18um that's what you've told us today so
3:04:20miss hogan i want you to come back to
3:04:23the protections
3:04:25that you are calling on us
3:04:28to enact this isn't complicated
3:04:30we're going to be told online all day
3:04:33with these paid
3:04:35facebook people oh congress can't act
3:04:38they're not experts it's too complicated
3:04:41for
3:04:42uh congress just get out of the way
3:04:43you're not experts well
3:04:46this isn't complicated facebook and its
3:04:48big tech lobbyists are blocking
3:04:51my bills to protect kids because it
3:04:53would cost them money that's how
3:04:55complicated it is so let's start with
3:04:57the kids act and senator blumenthal and
3:04:59i that would ban influencer marketing to
3:05:03kids today's popular influencers pedal
3:05:06products while they flaunt their lavish
3:05:08lifestyles to young users can you
3:05:11explain
3:05:12how allowing influencer marketing to
3:05:15teens and children makes facebook more
3:05:17money
3:05:23the business model that provides mostly
3:05:25a great deal of the content on instagram
3:05:28is one where
3:05:29people produce content for free they put
3:05:32on instagram free no one's charged for
3:05:34it but many of those content creators
3:05:36have sponsorships from
3:05:39from brands or from other
3:05:41affiliate programs
3:05:44facebook needs those content creators to
3:05:46continue to make content so that we will
3:05:48view content and in the process view
3:05:51more ads
3:05:53facebook
3:05:54provides tools to support influencers
3:05:57and who do influencer marketing because
3:05:59it gives them the supply of content that
3:06:01allows them to keep people on the
3:06:02platform viewing more ads making more
3:06:04money for them
3:06:05yeah so
3:06:07i am actually the author of the 1990
3:06:11children's television act what does that
3:06:13do well it says to all the television
3:06:15networks in america stop preying upon
3:06:17children stop using all of your power in
3:06:22order to try to get young children in
3:06:24our country hooked on the products that
3:06:26are going to be sold we had to pass a
3:06:28law
3:06:28to ban television stations from doing
3:06:31this
3:06:31that's why i knew that after my law
3:06:34passed in 1996 to break up the
3:06:36monopolies
3:06:38of the telecommunications industry and
3:06:40allow in
3:06:41the googles and the
3:06:44facebooks and all the other companies
3:06:46you name it that we would need a child
3:06:49privacy protection there because
3:06:51everyone would just move over to that
3:06:52new venue
3:06:53it was pretty obvious and of course the
3:06:55industry said no way we're going to have
3:06:57privacy laws for adults and they blocked
3:07:00me from putting that on the books in
3:07:011996.
3:07:03but at least for children i got up to
3:07:04age 12 that's all i could get
3:07:06out of
3:07:07the industry but we also
3:07:11know that
3:07:13as time has moved on it they become even
3:07:16more sophisticated
3:07:18so that
3:07:19the kids act is necessary to stop
3:07:22children and teen apps from being
3:07:24features such as likes and follower
3:07:27accounts that quantify popularity uh
3:07:30miss hogan can you explain how allowing
3:07:32these features that create an online
3:07:35popularity contest makes facebook more
3:07:38money
3:07:40um
3:07:42just to make sure so i i am only
3:07:44familiar with issues regarding teens
3:07:47from the the research i have read at
3:07:48facebook's um so i want to put that
3:07:50caviar in there
3:07:52the research i have seen with regard to
3:07:53quantifiable popularity is that as long
3:07:56as comments are allowed so this is not a
3:07:58quantitative thing this is just comments
3:08:00as long as long as comments are still on
3:08:03posts on instagram take just taking
3:08:05likes off instagram
3:08:07doesn't fix the social comparison
3:08:09problem that you know teenage girls are
3:08:11smart they see that sally is prettier
3:08:13than them her pictures are really good
3:08:15she gets tons of comments they don't get
3:08:17very many comments right um and so i do
3:08:20think we need larger interventions than
3:08:23just removing um quantitative measures
3:08:25um
3:08:27facebook has a product that is very
3:08:29attractive
3:08:31the reason why they have the study of
3:08:33problematic use is because it is kind of
3:08:34addictive
3:08:36and those kinds of things like having
3:08:38lots of little feedback loops keeps kids
3:08:40engaged and like i mentioned earlier
3:08:43part of why facebook switched over to
3:08:45meaningful social interactions was it
3:08:47found that if you got more likes more
3:08:49comments more reshares you produced more
3:08:51content
3:08:52and so having those systems of
3:08:55little rewards makes people produce more
3:08:57content which means we view more content
3:08:59and we view more ads which makes them
3:09:00more money okay and
3:09:02the kids act that senator blumenthal and
3:09:05i are advocating for also
3:09:07prohibits amplification of dangerous and
3:09:10violent
3:09:11content to children and teens can you
3:09:13explain how algorithms pushing that
3:09:15dangerous content makes facebook more
3:09:18money
3:09:20i don't think facebook ever set out to
3:09:22intentionally promote
3:09:24divisive extreme polarizing content i do
3:09:27think though that that they are aware of
3:09:30the side effects of the choices they
3:09:31have made around amplification and they
3:09:33know that algorithmic based ranking so
3:09:36engagement based ranking keeps you on
3:09:38their sites longer
3:09:40you have long you have longer sessions
3:09:41you show up more often and that makes
3:09:43them more money
3:09:45so do you believe we have to ban all
3:09:47features
3:09:49that quantify popularity as a starting
3:09:52point in legislation
3:09:54um
3:09:56as i as i covered before the internal
3:09:58research i've seen is that removing
3:10:00things like likes alone if you don't
3:10:02remove things like comments uh doesn't
3:10:04have a huge impact on social comparison
3:10:06so i do believe we need to have a more
3:10:07integrated um solution for these issues
3:10:10okay do should we ban targeted
3:10:12advertisements to children i strongly
3:10:14encourage banning targeted
3:10:15advertisements to children and we need
3:10:18to have oversight in terms of i think
3:10:20the algorithms will likely still learn
3:10:22the interests of kids and match ads
3:10:25those kids even if the advertiser can't
3:10:26articulate i want to target on this
3:10:28interest right how much money does
3:10:30facebook made make from targeting
3:10:32children
3:10:33i don't know what fraction of their
3:10:34revenue comes from children okay so
3:10:36ultimately children are not commodities
3:10:39no they've always been given
3:10:41historically special protections that's
3:10:43what the children's television act of
3:10:451990 is all about
3:10:48they've always been given this special
3:10:50safety zone so that children can grow up
3:10:53without being preyed upon
3:10:56by marketers
3:10:58and i was a boy and the salesman would
3:11:01knock on the front door my mother would
3:11:02just say tell them i'm not home
3:11:05that man is not getting into our living
3:11:07room
3:11:08well i would say to my
3:11:10mother but you are home not to him she
3:11:13would say
3:11:15well
3:11:15we need to give parents the ability just
3:11:17to say
3:11:19no one's home for you
3:11:21and your company in your attempts to
3:11:23prey upon children to get into our
3:11:24living room
3:11:25that's our moment in history we have to
3:11:27make sure that we respond to the
3:11:29challenge thank you mr chairman
3:11:31thank you uh senator markey and my
3:11:34thanks to senator markey for his
3:11:35leadership over many years
3:11:37on protecting children
3:11:39as you've heard he
3:11:41was a
3:11:43champion in the house of representatives
3:11:45for coming here well before i was in
3:11:48the united states senate but around the
3:11:50time i was elected attorney general i've
3:11:52been very pleased and honored to work
3:11:54with him on
3:11:56legislation now going forward and i join
3:11:58him in thanking you i have just a few
3:12:01concluding questions and
3:12:03i seem to be the last one left standing
3:12:05here so the good news is i don't think
3:12:08uh we'll have others but
3:12:11uh as you may know
3:12:13um
3:12:14you do know my office created
3:12:16an instagram user identified as a 13
3:12:19year old
3:12:20girl
3:12:22she followed a few
3:12:24easily identifiable
3:12:26accounts on
3:12:28weight loss dieting eating disorders and
3:12:31she was deluged literally within a day
3:12:35of
3:12:37content
3:12:38pushed to her by
3:12:41algorithms
3:12:42that
3:12:43in effect promoted
3:12:46self-injury and eating disorders are you
3:12:49surprised by that fact
3:12:50i'm not surprised by that fact facebook
3:12:53has internal research where they have
3:12:54done even
3:12:56more gentle versions of that experiment
3:12:58where they have started from things like
3:12:59interest in healthy recipes so not even
3:13:02extreme dieting and because of the
3:13:04nature of engagement based ranking and
3:13:06amplification of interests
3:13:08that ver that that imaginary user was
3:13:11pushed or that that real account was
3:13:13pushed towards extreme dieting and pro
3:13:15anorexia content very rapidly
3:13:17and that's the algorithm that's the
3:13:19algorithm
3:13:21that algorithm could be changed the
3:13:23algorithm definitely could be changed i
3:13:25i have first-hand experience from having
3:13:26worked at pinterest pinterest used to be
3:13:29an application that was heavily based
3:13:30just on you follow certain people's pins
3:13:34and those are put into your feed
3:13:35and over time it grew to be much much
3:13:37more heavily based on recommendations
3:13:39that the algorithm would figure out what
3:13:41are you interested in
3:13:44you can have wonderful experiences that
3:13:46are based on human interactions so these
3:13:48are human scale technologies not
3:13:51computers choosing what we focus on
3:13:54so the average parent listening here
3:13:57worried about
3:13:59their daughter or son
3:14:02being deluged with these kinds of
3:14:05content
3:14:07would want that kind of algorithm
3:14:09changed i would think and would welcome
3:14:11the oversight that you're recommending
3:14:14i i believe parents deserve more options
3:14:16and more choices and today they don't
3:14:18know even what they could be asking for
3:14:21i just received by text literally
3:14:25about
3:14:2615 minutes ago
3:14:28a message from someone in connecticut
3:14:32and i'm going to read it to you
3:14:34it's from a dad
3:14:36um
3:14:40i'm in tears right now
3:14:43watching your interaction
3:14:46with francis halgen
3:14:48my 15 year old daughter loved her body
3:14:50at 14. was on instagram constantly
3:14:55and maybe posting too much suddenly she
3:14:58started hating her body
3:15:00her body dysmorphia now anorexia
3:15:03and was in deep deep trouble before we
3:15:06found treatment
3:15:08i fear she'll never be the same
3:15:11i'm brokenhearted
3:15:14i think people tend to lose sight of the
3:15:16real world impact
3:15:18yeah and um
3:15:21i think that's the reason that you're
3:15:23here
3:15:24um i'd just like to invite you
3:15:28if you have any words to those
3:15:31other
3:15:33employees at big tech the workers who
3:15:35may be troubled by the misconduct or
3:15:38unethical conduct
3:15:41that they see what you would tell them
3:15:46we live in
3:15:47a pattern that we have seen throughout
3:15:49time with regard to technologies is that
3:15:51humans are very crafty people like we
3:15:53find interesting solutions but we often
3:15:56get out over our skis
3:15:57right we we develop things that are of a
3:15:59larger scale than we know really know
3:16:01how to handle
3:16:03and what we have done in the past is
3:16:04when we see this happen we take a step
3:16:06back and we find institutions and we
3:16:09find frameworks for doing these things
3:16:10in a safe way
3:16:13we live in a moment where whistleblowers
3:16:15are very important because these
3:16:17technological systems are walled off
3:16:20they are very complicated they're things
3:16:22that you need to be a specialist to
3:16:23really understand the consequences of
3:16:25and the fact that we've been having the
3:16:27exact same kinds of false choice
3:16:29discussions about what to do about
3:16:31facebook you know is it about privacy or
3:16:33oversight is it about censorship or
3:16:35safety like the fact that we're being
3:16:37asked these false choices is just an
3:16:39illustration of what happens when the
3:16:41real solutions are hidden inside of
3:16:43companies
3:16:44we need more
3:16:46tech employees to come forward through
3:16:48legitimate channels like the sec or
3:16:50congress
3:16:51to make sure that the public has the
3:16:53information they need in order to have
3:16:55technologies be human-centric not not
3:16:58not computer-centric
3:17:00thank you
3:17:01um on that note we'll conclude
3:17:04thank you for an extraordinary
3:17:07testimony
3:17:09uh i think that
3:17:11anybody watching would be impressed and
3:17:13much better informed and you've done
3:17:16america a real public service thank you
3:17:20the record will remain open for a week
3:17:22i'm sorry for two weeks any senators who
3:17:24want to submit questions for the record
3:17:27should do so by october
3:17:29october 19th
3:17:30this hearing is adjourned thank you
3:17:59so
3:18:17uh
3:18:23okay

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