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Facebook Whistleblower Frances Haugen testifies before Senate Commerce Committee — Transcript

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0:01today
0:36foreign
1:08thank you
1:38foreign
2:13foreign
2:48thank you
2:53very much
3:20um
3:48absolutely
4:12okay yeah
4:25foreign
4:59foreign
5:32the trailer
6:16you know
6:46thank you
6:50today
7:15foreign
7:46thank you
8:19the meeting and hearing of the
8:23subcommittee on consumer protection of
8:25the Commerce Committee will come to
8:26order uh I'm very pleased to
8:30welcome my colleagues and I want to
8:33thank uh ranking member Senator
8:36Blackburn for her cooperation and
8:40collaboration we've been working very
8:41closely
8:42and the ranking member who is here
8:45Senator wicker as well as our
8:48chairwoman Maria Cantwell Senator Camp
8:51well I'm sure will be here shortly most
8:54important I'd like to thank our Witness
8:57Francis Haugen
8:59for being here and the two Council who
9:02are representing her
9:04today and I want to give you my
9:07heartfelt
9:08gratitude for your courage
9:11and strength in coming forward as you
9:13have done standing up to one of the most
9:16powerful implacable corporate Giants in
9:19the history of the world without any
9:22exaggeration you have a compelling
9:25credible voice which we've heard already
9:29but you are not here alone
9:33you're armed with documents and evidence
9:37and you speak volumes as they do about
9:41how Facebook has put profits ahead of
9:45people
9:47among other Revelations the information
9:48that you have provided to Congress
9:52is powerful proof that Facebook knew its
9:56products were harming teenagers
9:59Facebook exploited teens using powerful
10:02algorithms that amplify their
10:05insecurities and abuses through what it
10:07found
10:09was an addict's narrative
10:12there is a question
10:15which I hope you will discuss as to
10:17whether there is such a thing as a safe
10:20algorithm
10:22Facebook sought teens creating secret
10:25accounts
10:27that are often hidden from their parents
10:31as unique value proposition in their
10:36words a unique value proposition a way
10:38to drive up numbers for advertisers and
10:41shareholders at the expense of safety
10:45and it doubled down on targeting
10:48children pushing products on pre-teams
10:51not just teens but pre-teens
10:54that it knows are harmful to our kids
10:56mental health and well-being instead of
10:59telling parents Facebook concealed the
11:02facts it sought to Stonewall and blocked
11:04this information from becoming public
11:06including to this committee when Senator
11:09Blackburn and I specifically asked the
11:13company
11:14and still even now
11:16as of just last Thursday when a Facebook
11:19witness came before this committee it
11:21has refused disclosure or even to tell
11:24us when it might decide whether to
11:27disclose additional documents
11:29and they've continued their tactics even
11:33after they knew the destruction it
11:36caused
11:37it isn't just that they made money
11:40from these practices but they continued
11:43to profit from them
11:45their profit was more important than the
11:48pain that they caused
11:51last Thursday the message from Ms
11:53Antigone Davis Facebook's Global head of
11:56safety was simple
11:58quote This research is not a bombshell
12:01end quote
12:03and she repeated the line not a
12:06bombshell
12:08well
12:09This research is
12:12the very definition of a bombshell
12:15Facebook and big Tech are facing a big
12:18tobacco Omen a moment of Reckoning
12:22the parallel is striking
12:24I sued big tobacco as Connecticut's
12:26attorney general I helped to lead
12:28the states in that legal action and I
12:31remember very very well
12:34the moment
12:35in the course of our litigation when we
12:38learned of those files that showed
12:42not only that big tobacco knew that its
12:45product caused cancer
12:46but that they had done the research they
12:49concealed the files
12:51and
12:53now we knew and the world knew and big
12:56Tech now faces that big tobacco
12:59jaw-dropping Moment of Truth it is
13:03documented proof that Facebook knows its
13:07products can be addictive and toxic to
13:10children and it's not just that they
13:12made money again it's that they valued
13:16their profit
13:17more than the pain that they cause to
13:21children and their families
13:24the damage to self-interest and
13:27self-worth inflicted by Facebook today
13:31will haunt a generation
13:36feelings of inadequacy and insecurity
13:38rejection and self-hatred
13:41will impact
13:44this generation for years to come our
13:47children
13:48are the ones who are victims teens today
13:51looking at themselves in the mirror
13:55feel doubt and insecurity
14:00Mark Zuckerberg ought to be looking at
14:02himself in the mirror today
14:05and yet rather than taking
14:07responsibility
14:09and showing leadership
14:11Mr Zuckerberg is going sailing
14:15his new modus operandi no apologies no
14:18admission no action nothing to see here
14:23Mark Zuckerberg you need to come before
14:24this committee you need to explain
14:26to Francis Haugen
14:30to us to the world
14:32and to the parents of America
14:37what you were doing and why you did it
14:39Instagram's business model is pretty
14:41straightforward more eyeballs more
14:44dollars everything Facebook does is to
14:47add more users and keep them on their
14:50apps for longer in order to hook us
14:52Instagram uses our private information
14:56to precisely Target us with content and
15:00recommendations
15:01assessing that
15:04what will provoke a reaction
15:06Will Keep Us scrolling
15:09far too often these recommendations
15:11encourage our most destructive and
15:14dangerous behaviors as we showed on
15:17Thursday
15:19we created a fake account my office and
15:22I did as a teen interested in extreme
15:25dieting and eating disorders Instagram
15:29latched on to that teenager's initial
15:33insecurities that then pushed more
15:35content and recommendations
15:37glorifying eating disorders
15:40that's how Instagram's algorithms
15:44can push teens into darker and darker
15:47places Facebook's own researchers
15:50called it Instagram's quote Perfect
15:53Storm
15:56exacerbating downward spirals
15:59Facebook as you have put it Miss Haugen
16:03so powerfully maximizes profits and
16:06ignores pain
16:08Facebook's failure to acknowledge and to
16:10act makes it morally bankrupt
16:13again and again Facebook rejected
16:15reforms recommended by its own research
16:19last week Miss Davis said quote we're
16:22looking at end quote
16:24no specific plans no commitments only
16:28vague platitudes
16:31these documents that you have revealed
16:34provided this company with a blueprint
16:37for reform provided specific
16:39recommendation
16:40that could have made Facebook and
16:43Instagram say for the company repeatedly
16:46ignored those recommendations from its
16:50own
16:51researchers
16:52that would have made Facebook and
16:56Instagram safer faith Facebook
16:58researchers have suggested
17:01changing their recommendations
17:03to stop promoting accounts known to
17:06encourage
17:08dangerous body comparison
17:11instead of making meaningful changes
17:14Facebook simply pays lip service
17:17and if they won't act
17:21and if big Tech won't Act Congress has
17:24to intervene
17:26privacy protection is long overdue
17:29Senator Markey and I have introduced the
17:31kids act which would ban addictive
17:33tactics that Facebook uses to exploit
17:36children parents deserve better tools to
17:40protect their children
17:42I'm also a firm supporter of reforming
17:44section 230
17:46we should consider narrowing this
17:48sweeping immunity when platforms
17:50algorithms
17:51amplify illegal conduct you've commented
17:54on this in your testimony and perhaps
17:57you'll expand on it
17:58we have also heard compelling
18:00recommendations about requiring
18:01disclosures of research and independent
18:04reviews of these platforms algorithms
18:07and I plan to pursue these ideas
18:10the Securities and Exchange Commission
18:12should investigate your
18:15contentions and claims
18:18Ms Haugen and so should the Federal
18:21Trade Commission Facebook appears to
18:24have misled the public and investors and
18:28if that's correct it ought to face real
18:30penalties as a result of that misleading
18:32and deceptive
18:34misrepresentation
18:40I want to thank all my colleagues who
18:42are here today because
18:44what we have is a bipartisan
18:47Congressional roadmap for reform that
18:50will safeguard and protect children from
18:53Big Tech
18:54that will be a focus of our subcommittee
18:57moving forward and it will continue
18:59continue to be bipartisan
19:02and finally I'll just end on this note
19:05in the past weeks and days parents have
19:08contacted me
19:09with their stories heartbreaking
19:12and spine chilling stories about
19:15children pushed into eating disorders
19:19bullying online
19:21self-injury of the most
19:25disturbing kind
19:27and sometimes even taking their lives
19:29because of social media
19:32parents are holding Facebook accountable
19:34because of your bravery is having
19:38and we need to hold accountable Facebook
19:41and all big Tech as well again my thanks
19:45to you
19:46I am going to enter into the record a
19:49letter from 52 State Attorneys General
19:51and from two members of the youth
19:54Advisory Board of Sandy Hook promise as
19:57long as there's no objection and I will
20:00now turn to the ranking Member Center
20:02platform
20:03thank you Mr chairman and thank you for
20:06entering that letter in the record that
20:08we have from our State's Attorneys
20:11General good morning to everyone it is
20:13nice to see people in this hearing room
20:16and uh to be here for the hearing today
20:19Ms Haugen we thank you for your
20:22appearance before us today and for
20:24giving the opportunity not only for
20:27congress but for uh for the American
20:29people to hear from you in this setting
20:33and we appreciate that Mr chairman I
20:35think also thanks to you and your staff
20:39that have worked with our team to make
20:42certain that we had this hearing and
20:45this opportunity uh today so that we can
20:48get more insights into what Facebook is
20:52actually doing as they invade the
20:55Privacy not only of adults but of
20:58children and look at the ways that they
21:01are in violation of the children's
21:03online and privacy protection act which
21:06is federal law
21:07and looking at how they are evading that
21:12law and working around it and as the
21:15chairman said a privacy and online
21:18privacy passing a federal privacy
21:22standard has been long in the works I
21:25filed my first privacy bill when I was
21:28in the house back in 2012 and I think
21:33that it will be this Congress and this
21:35subcommittee that is going to lead the
21:37way to online privacy data security
21:40section 230 reforms and of course
21:44Senator Klobuchar always wants to talk
21:46about antitrust and I have to give an
21:49odd Senator Markie is down there
21:51when we were in the house we were
21:54probably two of the only ones who were
21:56talking about the need to have a federal
21:59privacy standard now as the chairman
22:03mentioned last week we heard from Mrs
22:07Davis who had Global safety for Facebook
22:12and it was surprising to us that what
22:16she tried to do was to minimize the
22:20information that was in these documents
22:22to minimize the research and to minimize
22:26the knowledge that Facebook had at one
22:30point I even reminded her the research
22:33was not third party research the
22:37research was there Facebook's internal
22:41research
22:43so they knew
22:45what they were doing they knew where the
22:49violations were and they know they are
22:55guilty
22:56they know this their research tells them
22:59this
23:01last week in advance of our hearing
23:04Facebook released two studies and said
23:08that the Wall Street Journal was all
23:10wrong they had just gotten it wrong
23:13as if the Wall Street Journal did not
23:15know how to read these documents and how
23:20to work through this research
23:23having seen the data that you've
23:26presented and the other studies that
23:29Facebook did not publicly share
23:33I feel pretty confident that it's
23:35Facebook who has done the
23:38misrepresenting to this committee here
23:41are some of the numbers that Facebook
23:43chose not to share and Mr chairman I
23:46think it's important that we look at
23:48these as we talk about the setting for
23:52this hearing what we learned last week
23:54what you and I've been learning over the
23:56past three years about big Tech and
23:59Facebook and here you go 66 percent of
24:02teen girls on Instagram and 40 percent
24:05of teen boys experience negative social
24:09comparisons
24:10this is Facebook's research 52 percent
24:15of teen girls who experience negative
24:18social comparison on Instagram said it
24:21was caused by images related to Beauty
24:24social comparison is worse on Instagram
24:28because it is perceived as real life but
24:32based on Celebrity standards social
24:35comparison mimics the grief cycle and
24:38includes a downward emotional spiral
24:41encompassing a range of emotions from
24:43jealousy to self-proclaimed body
24:47dysmorphia Facebook addiction which
24:50Facebook calls conveniently
24:54problematic use
24:56is most severe in teams peaking at age
25:0014.
25:01here's what else we know Facebook is not
25:05interested in making significant changes
25:08to improve kids safety on their
25:10platforms at least not when that would
25:13result in losing eyeballs on post or
25:17decreasing their ad revenues in fact
25:22Facebook is Running Scared as they know
25:25that in their own words young adults are
25:28less active and less engaged on Facebook
25:31and that they are running out of teams
25:33to add to Instagram so teens are looking
25:37at other platforms like Tick Tock and
25:39Facebook is only making those changes
25:41that add to its users numbers and
25:46ultimately its profits follow the money
25:50so what are these changes allowing users
25:54to create multiple accounts that
25:56Facebook does not delete and encouraging
26:00teams to create second accounts they can
26:02hide from their parents they are also
26:05studying younger and younger children as
26:07young as eight
26:09so that they can Market to them and
26:12while Miss Davis says that kids below 13
26:15are not allowed on Facebook or Instagram
26:18we know that they are because she told
26:21us that they recently had deleted 600
26:26000 accounts from children under age 13.
26:30so how do you get that many underage
26:33accounts if you aren't turning a blind
26:37eye to them in the first place
26:40and then in order to try to clean it up
26:42you go to delete it and then you say oh
26:44by the way we just in the last month
26:47deleted 600
26:51000 under age accounts and speaking of
26:55turning a blind eye Facebook turns a
26:57blind eye to user privacy
27:00news broke yesterday the the private
27:03data of over 1.5 billion that's right
27:061.5 billion Facebook users is being sold
27:11on a hacking forum that's its biggest
27:16data breach to date examples like this
27:19underscore my strong concerns about
27:21Facebook collecting the data of kids and
27:24teens and what they are doing with it
27:26Facebook also turns a blind eye toward
27:30blatant human exploitation taking place
27:33on its platform trafficking forced labor
27:36cartels the worst possible things one
27:40can imagine big tech companies have
27:43gotten away with abusing consumers for
27:46too long it is clear that Facebook
27:48prioritizes profit over the well-being
27:52of children and all users so as a mother
27:57and a grandmother this is an issue that
28:01is of particular concern to me so we
28:05thank you for being here today Miss
28:07Haugen and we look forward to getting to
28:10the truth about what Facebook is doing
28:13with users data and how they are abusing
28:17their privacy and how they show a lack
28:21of respect for the individuals that are
28:24on their Network we look forward to the
28:26testimony thank you Mr chairman thanks
28:28Senator black
28:30thank you Senator Blackman I don't know
28:32whether the ranking member would like to
28:35make if you don't mind thank you um
28:38chairman Blumenthal and and I will just
28:41take a moment or two uh and and I do
28:44appreciate being able to to speak as
28:47ranking member of the full committee
28:49this this Miss Hogan this is a this is a
28:51subcommittee hearing you see some vacant
28:53seats there's pretty good attendance for
28:56our subcommittee there are also a lot of
28:58things going on so people will be coming
28:59get going but I'm I'm willing to predict
29:02that this will have almost 100 percent
29:05attendance by members of the
29:08subcommittee because of the importance
29:09of this subject matter so thanks for
29:11coming forward to share concerns about
29:14Facebook's business practices
29:16particularly with respect to children
29:19and teens and of course that is the the
29:22main topic of our it's the title of our
29:25hearing today protecting kids online
29:29the recent relevation of Revelations
29:32about Facebook's mental health effects
29:34on children
29:35and its plan to Target younger audiences
29:38are indeed disturbing
29:41um and I think you're going to see a lot
29:43of bipartisan concern about this today
29:46and and in future hearings they just
29:50they show how urgent it is for Congress
29:53to act against powerful tech companies
29:58on behalf of children and the broader
30:02public and I say powerful tech companies
30:04they are uh possession possessive of
30:08immense immense power
30:11their product is addictive and people on
30:15both sides of this dice are concerned
30:18about this
30:19uh talk to an opinion maker just down
30:23the hall a few moments before this
30:25hearing this person said
30:27the tech gods
30:30have been demystified now and I think
30:34this hearing today Mr chair
30:37is a part of the process of demystifying
30:42big Tech
30:45The Children of America are hooked on
30:48their product
30:50it is often destructive and harmful and
30:53there is a cynical knowledge on behalf
30:56of the leadership of these big tech
30:58companies that that is true Ms Hogan I I
31:02hope you will have a chance to talk
31:05about your work experience at Facebook
31:08and perhaps compare it to other social
31:10media companies also look forward to
31:12hearing your thoughts on how this
31:15committee and how this Congress can
31:17ensure greater accountability and
31:20transparency especially with regard to
31:23children so thank you Mr chairman and
31:26thank you Ms Hogan for being here today
31:29thanks Senator wicker our witness this
31:31morning is Francis Haugen she was the
31:34lead product manager on Facebook Civic
31:37misinformation team she holds a degree
31:40in electrical and computer engineering
31:42from Olin College and an MBA from
31:45Harvard
31:47she made the courageous decision as all
31:50of us here and many others around the
31:52world know to leave Facebook and reveal
31:56the terrible truths about the company
31:59she learned during her tenure there
32:02and I think we are all in agreement here
32:07in expressing our gratitude and our
32:09admiration for your bravery and coming
32:11forward thank you Miss Haugen please
32:13proceed
32:18okay
32:21good afternoon chairman Blumenthal
32:23ranking member Blackburn and members of
32:26the subcommittee
32:27thank you for the opportunity to appear
32:29before you
32:30my name is Francis Haugen I used to work
32:33at Facebook
32:35I joined Facebook because I think
32:37Facebook has the potential to bring out
32:39the best in US
32:41but I'm here today because I believe
32:43Facebook's products harm children Stoke
32:45Division and weaken our democracy
32:48the company's leadership knows how to
32:50make Facebook and Instagram safer but
32:53won't make the necessary changes because
32:54they have put their astronomical profits
32:57before people
32:58congressional action is needed
33:01they won't solve this crisis without
33:03your help
33:05yesterday we saw Facebook get taken off
33:07the internet
33:09I don't know why I went down but I know
33:11that for more than five hours Facebook
33:13wasn't used to deepen divides
33:15destabilize democracies and make young
33:18girls and women feel bad about their
33:20bodies
33:21it also means that millions of small
33:23businesses weren't able to reach
33:25potential customers and countless photos
33:28of new babies weren't joyously
33:30celebrated by family and friends around
33:31the world
33:33I believe in the potential of Facebook
33:36we can have social media we enjoy
33:39that connects us without tearing our
33:42democracy apart our democracy putting
33:44our children in danger and sowing ethnic
33:46violence around the world
33:48we can do better
33:51I have worked as a product manager at
33:53large tech companies since 2006
33:54including Google Pinterest Yelp and
33:57Facebook
33:59my job has largely focused on
34:00algorithmic products like Google Plus
34:02search and recommendation systems like
34:05the one that powers the Facebook news
34:06feed
34:07having worked on four different types of
34:09social networks I understand how complex
34:12and nuanced these problems are
34:15however the choices being made inside of
34:18Facebook are disastrous
34:20for our children for our Public Safety
34:23for our privacy and for our democracy
34:26and that is why we must demand Facebook
34:28make changes
34:30during my time at Facebook first working
34:32as the lead product manager for civic
34:34misinformation and later on counter
34:36espionage
34:38I saw Facebook repeatedly encounter
34:40conflicts between its own profits and
34:42our safety
34:43Facebook consistently resolved these
34:45conflicts in favor of its own profits
34:48the result has been more division more
34:51harm
34:52more lies more threats and more combat
34:55in some cases this does this dangerous
34:58online talk has led to actual violence
35:00that harms and even kills people
35:03this is not simply a matter of certain
35:05social media users being angry or
35:07unstable or about one side being
35:09radicalized against the other it is
35:12about Facebook choosing to grow at all
35:14costs becoming an almost trillion dollar
35:17Company by buying its profits with our
35:20safety
35:22during my time at Facebook I came to
35:24realize a devastating truth
35:26almost no one outside of Facebook knows
35:28what happens inside of Facebook
35:31the company intentionally hides Vital
35:33Information from the public from the US
35:35government and from governments around
35:37the world
35:37the documents I have provided to
35:39Congress prove that Facebook has
35:41repeatedly misled the public
35:43about what its own research reveals
35:45about the safety of children
35:47the efficacy of its artificial
35:49intelligence systems and its role in
35:51spreading divisive and extreme messages
35:54I came forward because I believe that
35:56every human being deserves the Dignity
35:58of the truth
36:00the severity of this crisis demands that
36:03we break out of our previous regulatory
36:04frames
36:06Facebook wants to trick you into
36:07thinking that privacy protections or
36:09changes to section 230 alone will be
36:12sufficient
36:13while important these will not get to
36:15the core of the issue which is that no
36:17one truly understands the destructive
36:19choices made by Facebook except Facebook
36:23we can afford nothing less than full
36:25transparency
36:27as long as Facebook is operating in the
36:29shadows hiding its research from public
36:31scrutiny it is unaccountable
36:34until the incentives change
36:36Facebook will not change
36:40left alone Facebook will continue to
36:42make choices that go against the common
36:44good
36:45are common good
36:47when we realized big tobacco was hiding
36:49the harms it caused the government took
36:51action
36:52when we figured out cars were safer with
36:54seat belts the government took action
36:58and when our government learned that
36:59opioids were Taking Lives the government
37:01took action I implore you to do the same
37:04here
37:05today Facebook shapes our perception of
37:07the World by choosing the information we
37:10see even those who don't use Facebook
37:12are impacted by the majority who do
37:15a company with such frightening
37:16influence over so many people over their
37:19deepest thoughts feelings and behavior
37:21needs real oversight
37:24but Facebook's closed design means it
37:27has no real oversight
37:29only Facebook knows how it personalizes
37:32your feed for you
37:33at other large tech companies like
37:35Google
37:36any independent researcher can download
37:38from the internet
37:40the company's search results and write
37:41papers about what they find
37:43and they do
37:45but Facebook hides behind walls that
37:47keeps researchers and Regulators from
37:49understanding the true dynamics of their
37:51system
37:52Facebook will tell you privacy means
37:54they can't give you data this is not
37:56true
37:58when tobacco companies claimed that
38:00filtered cigarettes were safer for
38:02consumers
38:03scientists could independently
38:05invalidate these marketing messages
38:08and confirm that in fact they posed a
38:10greater threat to human health
38:12the public cannot do the same with
38:14Facebook we are given no other option
38:17than to take their marketing messages on
38:19Blind Faith
38:20not only does the company hide most of
38:23its own data my disclosure has proved
38:25that when Facebook is directly asked
38:27questions as important as how do you
38:30impact the health and safety of our
38:32children
38:33they mislead and they uh
38:37uh they choose to mislead and misdirect
38:40Facebook has not earned our Blind Faith
38:44this inability to see into Facebook's
38:46actual systems and confirm how they work
38:48is communicated and work as and confirm
38:51that they work as communicated is like
38:53the Department of Transportation
38:54regulating cars by only watching them
38:57drive down the highway
38:59today no regulator has a menu of
39:01solutions for how to fix Facebook
39:02because Facebook didn't want them to
39:05know enough about what's causing the
39:06problems otherwise they wouldn't
39:09otherwise there wouldn't have been need
39:10for a whistleblower
39:12how is the public supposed to assess if
39:14Facebook is resolving conflicts of
39:16interest in a way that is aligned with
39:18the public good if the public has no
39:20visibility into how Facebook operates
39:23this must change
39:25Facebook wants you to believe that the
39:27problems we're talking about are
39:28unsolvable
39:30they want you to believe in false
39:32choices
39:33they want you to believe that you must
39:35choose between a Facebook full of
39:36divisive and extreme content or losing
39:39one of the most important values our
39:42country was founded upon free speech
39:45that you must choose between public
39:47oversight of Facebook's choices and your
39:49personal privacy
39:51that to be able to share fun photos of
39:53your kids with old friends you must also
39:55be inundated with anger driven virality
39:59they want you to believe that this is
40:01just part of the deal
40:03I am here today to tell you that's not
40:06true
40:07these problems are solvable
40:11a safer Free Speech respecting more
40:15enjoyable social media is possible
40:18but there's one thing that I hope
40:19everyone takes away from these
40:21disclosures it is that Facebook can
40:23change but is clearly not going to do so
40:26on its own
40:27my fear is that without action divisive
40:30and extremist behaviors we see today are
40:32only the beginning
40:33what we saw in Myanmar and are now seen
40:36in Ethiopia are only the opening
40:38chapters of a story so terrifying no one
40:41wants to read the end of it
40:44Congress can change the rules that
40:46Facebook plays by and stop the many
40:48harms it is now causing
40:50we now know the truth about Facebook's
40:53destructive impact
40:55I really appreciate the seriousness
40:57which the members of Congress and the
40:59Securities and Exchange Commission are
41:01approaching these issues
41:03I came forward at Great personal risk
41:06because I believe we still have time to
41:08act
41:09but we must act now
41:12I'm asking you our elective
41:13representatives to act thank you
41:17thank you Miss Haugen thank you for
41:19taking that personal risk and we will do
41:22anything and everything to protect
41:25and stop any retaliation against you in
41:27any legal action
41:29that the company may bring to bear or
41:32anyone else and we've made that I think
41:34very clear in the course of these
41:37proceedings
41:38uh
41:40I want to ask you about this idea of
41:42disclosure you've talked about
41:45uh looking in effect at a car going down
41:49the road and we're going to have
41:51five-minute rounds of questions maybe a
41:53second round if you're willing to do it
41:56uh
41:57we're here today to look under the hood
42:01and that's what we need to do more in
42:03August Senator Blackburn and I wrote to
42:07Mark Zuckerberg and we asked him pretty
42:09straightforward questions about how the
42:11company
42:12works and safeguards children and teens
42:15on Instagram Facebook dots
42:19Duff sidetracked
42:22in effect misled us so I'm going to ask
42:25you a few straight forward questions to
42:28break down some of what you have said
42:31and if you can answer them yes or no
42:33that would be great it's Facebook's
42:36research its own research ever found
42:39that its platforms can have a negative
42:42effect on children and teens mental
42:45health or well-being
42:48many of Facebook's internal research
42:50reports indicate that Facebook has a
42:54serious negative harm on a
42:55non-significant not a significant
42:58portion of teenagers and and younger and
43:00children
43:01and has Facebook ever offered features
43:05that it knew had a negative effect
43:08on children's and teens Mental Health
43:11Facebook knows that it's amplification
43:14algorithms things like engagement based
43:16ranking on Instagram can lead children
43:18from very innocuous topics like healthy
43:21recipes I think all of us could eat a
43:23little more healthy all the way from
43:25just something innocent like healthy
43:27recipes to anorexia promoting content
43:30over a very short period of time and has
43:33Facebook ever found again in its
43:36research that kids show sign of
43:39Addiction on Instagram
43:41Facebook has studied a pattern that they
43:44call problematic use what we might more
43:46commonly call addiction it has a very
43:49high bar for what it believes it is it
43:51says you you self-identify that you
43:53don't have control over your usage and
43:55that it is materially harming your
43:57health your schoolwork or or your your
43:59physical health
44:01five to six percent of 14 year olds have
44:04the self-awareness to admit both those
44:06questions it is likely that far more
44:09than five to six percent of 14 year olds
44:11are lit are are even are addicted to
44:13Instagram
44:15last Thursday uh my colleagues and I
44:18asked Ms Davis who was representing
44:20Facebook
44:22about how the decision would be made
44:24whether to
44:26pause permanently Instagram for kids
44:30and she said quote there's no one person
44:32who makes a decision like that we think
44:36about it that collaboratively
44:39it's as though she couldn't mention Mark
44:41Zuckerberg's name
44:43isn't he the one who will be making this
44:45decision from your experience in the
44:47company
44:48Mark holds a very unique role in the
44:52tech industry in that he holds uh over
44:5555 percent of all the voting shares for
44:57Facebook there are no similarly powerful
45:00companies that are as unilaterally
45:02controlled
45:04um and in the end the buck stops with
45:06Mark there's no one currently holding
45:07Mark accountable by himself and Mark
45:10Zuckerberg in effect is the algorithm
45:12designer in Chief correct
45:16um I received an MBA from Harvard and
45:19they emphasized to us that we are
45:21responsible for the organizations that
45:23we build Mark has built an organization
45:26that is very metrics driven that isn't
45:28it is intended to be flat there is no
45:30unilateral responsibility the metrics
45:33make the decision unfortunately that
45:35itself is a decision and in the end if
45:38he is the CEO and the chairman of
45:40Facebook he is responsible for those
45:42decisions
45:43the buck stops with him the buck stops
45:46with him uh and speaking of the buck
45:49stopping uh
45:51you have said that
45:54Facebook should declare moral bankruptcy
45:57I agree yeah I think it's it's actions
46:00and its failure to acknowledge its
46:02responsibility
46:05indicate moral bankruptcy there is a
46:07cycle occurring inside the company where
46:09Facebook has struggled for a long time
46:11to recruit and retain the number of
46:13employees it needs to tackle the large
46:16scope of projects that is chosen to take
46:18on
46:19Facebook is stuck in a cycle where it
46:22struggles to struggles to hire
46:24um that causes it to understand projects
46:26which causes scandals which then makes
46:29it harder to hire
46:30part of why Facebook needs to come out
46:32and say we did something wrong we made
46:34some choices that we regret is the only
46:37way we can move forward and heal
46:39Facebook because we first have to admit
46:41the truth
46:42like the way we'll have reconciliation
46:44and we can move forward is by first
46:46being honest and declaring moral
46:47bankruptcy being honest and
46:49acknowledging that Facebook has caused
46:52and aggravate a lot of pain simply make
46:54more money
46:56and it has profited off spreading
46:59disinformation and misinformation and
47:02sowing hate
47:05Facebook's uh answers to Facebook's
47:08destructive impact always seems to be
47:11more Facebook we need more Facebook
47:13which means more pain
47:16and more money for Facebook
47:18would you agree
47:21I don't think at any point Facebook set
47:23out to make a destructive platform I
47:25think it is a challenge of that Facebook
47:28has set up an organization where the
47:30parts the organization responsible for
47:32growing and expanding the organization
47:33are separate and not not regularly
47:37cross-pollinated with the parts the
47:38company that focus on the harms that the
47:40company is causing and as a result
47:42regularly Integrity actions projects
47:45that were hard fought by the teams
47:47trying to keep us safe are undone by New
47:50Growth projects that counteract those
47:52same remedies
47:54um so I do think it's a thing of there
47:56are organizational problems that need
47:58oversight and Facebook needs help in
48:01order to move forward to a more healthy
48:02place
48:03and whether it's teens bullied into
48:06Suicidal Thoughts
48:09or the genocide of ethnic minorities in
48:13Myanmar or Fanning the Flames that
48:16division
48:17within our own country or in Europe
48:20they are ultimately responsible for the
48:24immorality of the pain that's caused
48:28Facebook needs to take responsibility
48:30for the consequences of its choices it
48:33needs to be willing to accept small
48:34trade-offs on profit and I think I think
48:37just that act of being to able to admit
48:39that it's a mixed bag is important and I
48:42think what we saw from Antigone last
48:44week is an example of the kind of
48:46behavior we need to support Facebook and
48:48growing out of which is instead of just
48:50focusing on all the good they do
48:52admit they have responsibilities to also
48:55remedy the harm but Mark Zuckerberg's
48:58new policy is
48:59no apologies
49:01no admissions no acknowledgment
49:05nothing to see here
49:07we're going to deflect it and go sailing
49:09I turn to the ranking member
49:13thank you Mr chairman thank you for your
49:15testimony uh I want to stay with Mr
49:18Davis in some of her comments because I
49:21had asked her last week about the
49:24underage users and she had made the
49:28comment I'm going to quote from her
49:30testimony if we find an account of
49:32someone who's under 13 we remove them in
49:36the last three months we removed 600 000
49:38accounts of under 13 euros end quote and
49:43I have to tell you it seems to me that
49:46there's a problem if you have 600
49:51000 accounts from children who ought not
49:54to be there in the first place so what
49:57did Mark Zuckerberg know about
50:00Facebook's plans to bring kids on as new
50:04users and advertise to them
50:07there are reports within Facebook that
50:10show cohort analyzes where they they
50:13examine at what ages do people join
50:15Facebook and Instagram
50:17and based on those cohort analyzes so
50:21Facebook likes to say children lie about
50:24their ages to get onto the platform
50:27the reality is enough kids tell the
50:29truth that you can work backwards to
50:32figure out what are approximately the
50:33real ages of anyone who's on the
50:35platform
50:36when Facebook does cohort analyzes and
50:38looks back retrospectively it discovers
50:41things like you know up to 10 to 15
50:44percent of even 10 year olds in a given
50:46cohort may be on Facebook or Instagram
50:49um okay so this is why Adam massari
50:52who's the CEO of Instagram
50:54would have replied to Jojo siwa when she
50:58said to him oh I've been on Instagram
51:00since I was eight he said he didn't want
51:03to know that so it would be for this
51:06reason correct
51:08um
51:09a pattern of behavior that I saw at
51:12Facebook was that often problems were so
51:15understaffed that there was a kind of an
51:18implicit discouragement from having
51:20better detection systems so for example
51:22I worked my last team at Facebook was on
51:24the counter Espionage team within the
51:26threat intelligence org and at any given
51:29time our team could only handle a third
51:30of the cases that we knew about
51:33we knew that if we built even a basic
51:35detector we would likely have many more
51:38cases okay
51:40yeah let me ask you this so you look at
51:44the way that they have the data but
51:48they're choosing to keep that data and
51:50advertise from it right you sell it to
51:53third parties so what does Facebook do
51:56you've got these six hundred thousand
51:58accounts that ought not to be on there
52:02tell me more and right but then you
52:06delete those accounts but what happens
52:09to that data does Facebook keep that
52:12data do they keep it until those
52:15children go to age 13 since as you're
52:18saying they can work backward and figure
52:21out the true age of a a user so what do
52:26they do with it do they delete it do
52:28they store it do they keep it how do
52:31they process that
52:33and I am my understanding of Facebook's
52:38data retention policies and I want to be
52:39really clear I didn't work directly on
52:41that is that they delete when they
52:43delete an account they delete all the
52:44data then I believe 90 days in
52:46compliance with gdpr
52:48um and with regard to Children underage
52:51on the platform Facebook could do
52:53substantially more to detect more of
52:54those children and they should have to
52:56publish for congress those processes
52:59because there are lots of subtleties in
53:01those things and they can be much more
53:02effective than probably what they're
53:03doing today got it now staying with this
53:07underage children since this hearing is
53:09all about kids and about online privacy
53:13I want you to tell me
53:17how Facebook is able to do market
53:19research on these children that are
53:22under age 13 because Mrs Davis was
53:26really she didn't deny this last week so
53:32how are they doing this do they bring
53:36kids into focus groups with their
53:38parents how do they get that permission
53:40she said they got permission from
53:42parents is there a permission slip or a
53:47form that gets signed and then how do
53:51they know which kids to Target
53:55um
53:57there's a bunch of sun packed there uh
53:59we'll start with maybe how did they
54:00recruit children for focus groups
54:03um or recruit teenagers most tech
54:05companies have systems where they can
54:08analyze the data that is on their
54:10servers so most of the focus groups I
54:13read
54:14or that I saw analysis of were around
54:17messenger kids which has children on it
54:21um
54:22and those focus groups appear to be
54:24children interacting in person
54:27often large tech companies use either
54:29sourcing agencies that will go and
54:31identify people who meet certain
54:33demographic criteria or they will reach
54:35out directly Based on data on the
54:38platform so for example on the case of
54:40messenger kids maybe you would want to
54:42study a child that was an active user
54:43and one that was a less active user you
54:46might reach out to some that came from
54:47each population and so these are
54:49children that are under age 13. yeah
54:52and they know it
54:54um for for some of these studies and I
54:56assume they get I assume they get
54:57permission but I don't work on them
54:59well we're still waiting to get a copy
55:01of that parental consent form that would
55:04involve children
55:06um my time is expired Mr chairman I'll
55:08say my other questions for our second
55:10round if we're able to get those thank
55:12you great thank you Senator Blackburn
55:14Senator Klobuchar thank you very much Mr
55:16chairman thank you so much Miss Hogan
55:18for shedding a light on how Facebook
55:21time and time again has put profit over
55:23people
55:24when their own research found that more
55:27than 13 of teen girls say that Instagram
55:30made their thoughts of suicide worse
55:32what did they do they proposed Instagram
55:34for kids which has now been put on pause
55:36because of public pressure uh when they
55:39found out that their algorithms are
55:41fostering polarization misinformation
55:43and hate that they allowed 99 percent of
55:48their violent contact to remain
55:50unchecked on their platform including
55:53lead up to the January 6 insurrection
55:56what did they do
55:58they now as we know Mark Zuckerberg's
56:00going sailing and saying no apologies
56:04I think the time has come for action and
56:06I think you are the Catalyst for that
56:08action
56:10um you have said privacy legislation is
56:12not enough I completely agree with you
56:14but I think you know we have not done
56:16anything to update our privacy laws in
56:18this country our federal privacy laws
56:20nothing zilch in any major way why
56:23because there are lobbyists around every
56:25single corner of this building that have
56:28been hired by the tech industry we have
56:30done nothing when it comes to making the
56:32algorithms more transparent allowing for
56:34the University Research that you refer
56:36to why because Facebook and the other
56:39tech companies are throwing a bunch of
56:41money around this town and people are
56:43listening to them we have done nothing
56:45significantly passed although we are on
56:48a bipartisan basis working in the
56:50antitrust subcommittee to get something
56:52done on consolidation which you
56:54understand allows the dominant platforms
56:57to control all this like the bullies in
57:00the neighborhood buy out the companies
57:02that maybe could have competed with them
57:04and added the bells and whistles so the
57:06time for Action is now so I'll start
57:08I'll start with something that I asked
57:10Facebook's head of safety when she
57:12testified before us last week I asked
57:15her how they estimate the lifetime value
57:18of a user for kids who start using their
57:20products before they turn 13. she evaded
57:24the question and said that's not the way
57:26we think about it
57:27is that right or is it your experience
57:29that Facebook estimates and about and
57:32puts a value on how much money they get
57:36from users in general I'll get to kids
57:38in a second is that a motivating force
57:40for them
57:42um
57:43based on what I saw in terms of
57:44allocation of Integrity spending so one
57:47of the things disclosed in the Wall
57:48Street Journal was that I believe it's
57:49like 87 of all the misinformation
57:51spending is spent on English but only
57:53about like nine percent of the users are
57:55English speakers
57:57um it seems that that
57:59Facebook invests more and users who make
58:01them more money even though the danger
58:03may not be evenly distributed based on
58:05profitability does it make sense that
58:07having a younger person get hooked on
58:09social media at a young age makes them
58:13more profitable over the long term as
58:15they have a life ahead of them
58:16Facebook's internal documents talk about
58:18the importance of getting younger users
58:20for example tweens onto Instagram like
58:23Instagram kids because they need to have
58:27um like they know that children bring
58:29their parents online and things like
58:31that and so they understand the value of
58:33younger users for the long-term success
58:35of Facebook Facebook reported
58:37advertising Revenue to be
58:3951.58 per user last quarter in the U.S
58:43and Canada uh when I asked Ms Davis how
58:46much of that came from Instagram users
58:48under 18 she wouldn't say uh do you
58:51think that teens are profitable for
58:53their company I would assume so based on
58:55Advertising for things like television
58:57uh you could substantially higher
58:59advertising rates for customers who
59:00don't yet have preferences or habits and
59:03so I'm I'm sure they are some of the
59:04more profitable users on Facebook but I
59:06do not work directly on that another
59:08major issue that's come out of this
59:10Eating Disorders Studies have found that
59:13Eating Disorders actually have the
59:15highest mortality rate of any mental
59:17illness for women and I led a bill on
59:21this with centers capital on Baldwin
59:22that we passed into law and I'm
59:25concerned that this algorithms that they
59:27have pushes outrageous content
59:30promoting anorexia and the like I know
59:33it's personal to you do you think that
59:36their algorithms push some of this
59:38content to young girls Facebook knows
59:40that they're the engagement based
59:43ranking the way that they pick the
59:45content in Instagram for young users for
59:47all users amplifies preferences and they
59:50have done something called a proactive a
59:53proactive incident response where they
59:55they take things they've heard for
59:57example like
59:58can you be led by the algorithms to
1:00:00anorexia content and they have literally
1:00:03recreated that experiment themselves and
1:00:04confirmed yes this this happens to
1:00:06people so Facebook knows that they are
1:00:09that they are leading young users to
1:00:10anorexia content uh do you think they
1:00:13are deliberately designing their product
1:00:15to be addictive Beyond even that content
1:00:18uh Facebook has a long history of having
1:00:20a successful and very effective growth
1:00:23division where they take little tiny
1:00:26tweaks they constantly constantly
1:00:27constantly are trying to optimize it to
1:00:29grow
1:00:30those kinds of stickiness could be
1:00:32considered as things that facilitate
1:00:34addiction right last thing I'll ask is
1:00:36we've seen this same kind of content in
1:00:39the political world you brought up other
1:00:41countries and what's been happening
1:00:43there on 60 Minutes you said that
1:00:44Facebook implemented safeguards to
1:00:47reduce misinformation ahead of the 2020
1:00:49election but turned off those safeguards
1:00:52right after the election and you know
1:00:55that the Insurrection occurred January
1:00:566. do you think that Facebook turned off
1:00:58the safeguards because they were costing
1:01:01the company money because it was
1:01:03reducing profits
1:01:05Facebook has been emphasizing a false
1:01:07Choice they've said the safeguards that
1:01:10were in place before the election
1:01:11implicated Free Speech the choices that
1:01:14were happening on the platform were
1:01:16really about how reactive and Twitchy
1:01:18was the platform right like how viral
1:01:20was the platform and Facebook changed
1:01:23those safety defaults in the run-up to
1:01:25the election because they knew they were
1:01:27dangerous and because they wanted that
1:01:29growth back they wanted the acceleration
1:01:31of the platform back after the election
1:01:33they they returned to their original
1:01:35defaults and the fact that they had to
1:01:37break the glass on January 6th and turn
1:01:40them back on
1:01:41I think that's deeply problematic agree
1:01:43thank you very much for your bravery and
1:01:45coming forward
1:01:48Senator thune thank you Mr chair and uh
1:01:51ranking member Blackburn
1:01:54um I've been arguing for some time that
1:01:57it is time for Congress to act and I
1:01:59think the question is always what is the
1:02:01correct way to do it the right way to do
1:02:03it consistent with our First Amendment
1:02:06right to free speech
1:02:08this committee uh doesn't have
1:02:11jurisdiction over the antitrust issue
1:02:13that's the Judiciary Committee and I'm
1:02:14not averse to looking at the
1:02:15monopolistic nature of Facebook honestly
1:02:18I think that's a real issue that needs
1:02:20to be examined and perhaps addressed as
1:02:22well but at least under this committee's
1:02:24jurisdiction there are a couple of
1:02:25things I think we can do and I have a
1:02:27piece of legislation and Senators
1:02:29Blackburn and Blumenthal are both
1:02:31co-sponsors
1:02:32uh called the filter bubble transparency
1:02:34act and essentially what it would do is
1:02:36give users the options to engage with
1:02:40social media platforms without being
1:02:41manipulated by these secret formulas
1:02:44that essentially dictate the content
1:02:46that you see when you open up an app or
1:02:48log on to a website
1:02:50we also I think need to hold big Tech
1:02:54accountable by reforming section 230 and
1:02:57one of the best opportunities I think to
1:02:59do that at least for in a bipartisan way
1:03:01is the platform accountability and
1:03:03consumer transparency or the packdac and
1:03:05that's the legislation that I've
1:03:06co-sponsored with Senator Schatz which
1:03:09in addition to stripping section 230
1:03:11protections for Content that a court
1:03:13determines to be illegal The Pact act
1:03:15would also increase transparency and due
1:03:18process for users around the content
1:03:19moderation process and importantly in
1:03:23the context we're talking about today
1:03:25with this hearing with a major big Tech
1:03:27whistleblower The Pact act would explore
1:03:30the viability of a federal program for
1:03:32big Tech employees to blow the whistle
1:03:34on wrongdoing inside the companies where
1:03:35they work in my view we should encourage
1:03:38employees in the tech sector like you to
1:03:41speak up about questionable practices of
1:03:43big tech companies so we can among other
1:03:45things ensure that Americans are fully
1:03:47aware of how social media platforms are
1:03:49using artificial intelligence and opaque
1:03:52algorithms to keep them hooked on the
1:03:54platform so let me Miss Haugen just ask
1:03:58you we've learned from the information
1:03:59that you've provided that Facebook
1:04:01conducts what's called engagement based
1:04:04ranking which you've described is very
1:04:06dangerous could you talk more about why
1:04:08engagement based ranking is dangerous
1:04:10and do you think Congress should seek to
1:04:12pass legislation like the filter bubble
1:04:14transparency act that would give users
1:04:16the ability to avoid engagement based
1:04:19ranking altogether
1:04:21foreign
1:04:26you're not going to like Facebook as
1:04:29much if we're not picking out the
1:04:30content for you
1:04:32that's that's just not true there are a
1:04:35lot of Facebook likes to present things
1:04:36as false choices like you have to choose
1:04:38between having lots of spam like let's
1:04:40say imagine we ordered our feeds by time
1:04:42like on iMessage or on um there are
1:04:47other forms of social media that are
1:04:48chronologically based
1:04:50they're going to say you're going to get
1:04:52spent you're going to get spammed like
1:04:53you're not going to enjoy your feed the
1:04:55reality is that those experiences have a
1:04:57lot of permutations there are ways that
1:04:59we can make those experiences where
1:05:01computers don't regulate what we see we
1:05:04together socially regulate what we see
1:05:07um but they don't want us to have that
1:05:08conversation because Facebook knows that
1:05:10when they pick out their the content
1:05:12that we focus on using computers we
1:05:14spend more time on their platform they
1:05:16make more money
1:05:19um the dangers of Engagement based
1:05:20ranking are that Facebook knows
1:05:23that content that elicits an extreme
1:05:26reaction from you is more likely to get
1:05:28a click a comment or reshare
1:05:31and it's interesting because those
1:05:32clicks and comments and reshares aren't
1:05:34even necessarily for your benefit it's
1:05:36because they know that other people will
1:05:38produce more content if they get the
1:05:40likes and comments and reshares they
1:05:43prioritize content in your feed so he
1:05:45will give little hits of dopamine to
1:05:47your friends so they will create more
1:05:49content and they have run experiments on
1:05:51people produce their side experiments
1:05:53where they have confirmed this
1:05:56so yeah you you and your um part of the
1:05:59information you provided the Wall Street
1:06:00Journal uh it's been found that Facebook
1:06:03altered its algorithm in an attempt to
1:06:05boost these meaningful social
1:06:06interactions or MSI but rather than
1:06:09strengthening bonds between family and
1:06:11friends on the platform the algorithm
1:06:13instead rewarded more outrage and
1:06:15sensationalism and I think Facebook
1:06:17would say that its algorithms are used
1:06:19to connect individuals with other
1:06:20friends and family that are largely
1:06:21positive do you believe that Facebook's
1:06:25algorithms make its platform a better
1:06:27place for Morse users and should
1:06:29consumers have the option to use
1:06:32Facebook and Instagram without being
1:06:34manipulated by algorithms designed to
1:06:37keep them engaged on that platform I
1:06:40strongly believe like I've spent most of
1:06:42my career working on systems like
1:06:43engagement based ranking like when I
1:06:45come to you and say these things I'm
1:06:47basically damning 10 years of my own
1:06:48work right
1:06:50um engagement based ranking Facebook
1:06:52says we can do it safely because we have
1:06:55ai you know the artificial intelligence
1:06:57will find the bad content that we know
1:06:59our engagement based ranking is
1:07:01promoting they've written blog posts on
1:07:03how they know engagement-based ranking
1:07:04is dangerous but the AI will save us
1:07:07Facebook's own research says they cannot
1:07:10adequately identify dangerous content
1:07:12and as a result those dangerous
1:07:14algorithms that they admit are picking
1:07:16up the the extreme sentence the division
1:07:20they can't protect us from the harms
1:07:22that they know exist in their own system
1:07:24and so I I I don't think it's just a
1:07:26question of saying should people have
1:07:28the option of choosing to not be
1:07:29manipulated by their algorithms
1:07:32I think if we had appropriate oversight
1:07:34or if we were formed 230 to make
1:07:36Facebook responsible for the
1:07:38consequences of their intentional
1:07:40ranking decisions
1:07:41I think they would they would get rid of
1:07:43Engagement based ranking because it is
1:07:45causing um teenagers to be exposed to
1:07:48more anorexia content it is pulling
1:07:50families apart and in places like
1:07:52Ethiopia it's literally Fanning ethnic
1:07:54violence
1:07:55I encourage reform of these platforms
1:07:58not not
1:08:00picking and choosing individual ideas
1:08:01but instead making the platforms
1:08:04themselves safer less Twitchy less
1:08:06reactive less viral because that's how
1:08:08we scalably solve these problems thank
1:08:11you Mr chair I I would simply say Let's
1:08:13uh let's get to work so we got some
1:08:16things we can do here thanks I agree
1:08:18thank you uh Senator shot thank you Mr
1:08:20chairman ranking member thank you for
1:08:22your courage in coming forward was there
1:08:26a particular moment uh when you came to
1:08:28the conclusion that uh reform from the
1:08:31inside was impossible and that you
1:08:33decided to be a whistleblower
1:08:37there was a long series of moments where
1:08:39I became aware that Facebook won
1:08:42Facebook conflicts of interest between
1:08:44its own profits and the common good
1:08:46Public Safety that Facebook consistently
1:08:49chose to prioritize its profits
1:08:51I think the moment which I realized we
1:08:54needed to get help from the outside that
1:08:56the only way these problems would be
1:08:58solved is by solving them together and
1:08:59not solving them alone was when Civic
1:09:02integrity was dissolved following the
1:09:042020 election it really felt like a
1:09:06betrayal of the promises that Facebook
1:09:08had made to people who had sacrificed a
1:09:11great deal to keep the election safe
1:09:13by basically dissolving our community
1:09:15and integrating in just other parts of
1:09:18the company and when I know their their
1:09:20response is that they've sort of
1:09:22distributed the duties yum that's an
1:09:25excuse right
1:09:27um I I cannot see into the hearts of
1:09:29other men and I I I don't know what let
1:09:33me say it this way it won't work right
1:09:34and I I can tell you that when I left
1:09:37the company so my the people who I
1:09:39worked with were disproportionately
1:09:40maybe 75 of my pod of seven people
1:09:45um so those are product managers program
1:09:47managers most of them had come from
1:09:48Civic integrity
1:09:50all of us left the inauthentic Behavior
1:09:53pod uh either for other parts of the
1:09:55company or or the company entirely over
1:09:58the same six week period of time so six
1:10:00months after the reorganization we had
1:10:02clearly lost faith that those changes
1:10:03were coming you said in your opening
1:10:06statement that they know how to make
1:10:08Facebook and Instagram
1:10:10safer so thought experiment you are now
1:10:14the chief executive officer and chairman
1:10:17of the company
1:10:18what changes would you immediately
1:10:20Institute
1:10:22um I would immediately establish a
1:10:25policy of how to share information and
1:10:28research from inside the company with
1:10:30appropriate oversight bodies like
1:10:31Congress
1:10:32I would I would give proposed
1:10:35legislation to Congress saying here's
1:10:37what an effective oversight agency would
1:10:39look like I would actively engage with
1:10:41academics to make sure that that people
1:10:44who are who are confirming are
1:10:46Facebook's marketing messages true have
1:10:48the information they need to confirm
1:10:49these things and I would immediately
1:10:53implement the quote soft interventions
1:10:56that were identified to protect the 2020
1:10:58election so that's things like requiring
1:11:00someone to click on a link before
1:11:01re-sharing it because other companies
1:11:04like Twitter have found that that
1:11:06significantly reduces misinformation no
1:11:08one is censored by being forced to click
1:11:10on a link before re-sharing it
1:11:13thank you I want to Pivot back to uh
1:11:15Instagram's uh targeting of kids we all
1:11:19know that they announced a pause but
1:11:21that reminds me of what they announced
1:11:24uh when they were gonna issue a digital
1:11:27currency and they got beat up by the U.S
1:11:30Senate Banking Committee and they said
1:11:32never mind
1:11:33and now they're coming back around
1:11:34hoping that nobody notices that they
1:11:37are going to try to issue a currency now
1:11:39let's set aside for the moment this sort
1:11:42of the the business model which appears
1:11:46to be gobble up everything do everything
1:11:48that's the gross growth strategy do you
1:11:51believe that they're actually going to
1:11:52discontinue Instagram kids or they're
1:11:54just waiting for the dust to settle
1:11:57and I would be sincerely surprised if
1:12:01they do not continue working on
1:12:02Instagram kids and I would be amazed if
1:12:04a year from now we don't have this
1:12:06conversation again why
1:12:08um
1:12:09Facebook understands that if they want
1:12:12to continue to grow they have to find
1:12:14new users they have to make sure that
1:12:16that the next generation is just as
1:12:18engaged with Instagram as the current
1:12:20one
1:12:21um and the way they'll do that is by
1:12:23making sure that children establish
1:12:25habits before they have good
1:12:26self-regulation by hooking kids by
1:12:28hooking kids
1:12:31I would like to emphasize one of the
1:12:33documents that we send in on problematic
1:12:35use examined the rates of problematic
1:12:37use by age and that peaked with 14 year
1:12:40olds it's just like cigarettes teenagers
1:12:43don't have good self-regulation they say
1:12:45explicitly I feel bad when I use
1:12:48Instagram and yet I can't stop
1:12:51um we need to protect the kids
1:12:53uh just my final question I have a long
1:12:55list of
1:12:57misstatements misdirections and outright
1:13:00lies from the company I don't have the
1:13:02time to read them but you're as intimate
1:13:05with all these deceptions as I am so I
1:13:09will just jump to the end
1:13:11uh if you were
1:13:14a member of this panel would you believe
1:13:16what Facebook is saying I would not
1:13:18believe I uh Facebook has not earned our
1:13:22right to just have blind trust in them
1:13:24trust is last week one of the most
1:13:26beautiful things I heard on the on the
1:13:28committee was um uh trust is earned and
1:13:31Facebook has not earned our trust
1:13:34thank you
1:13:37thanks Senator Schatz uh Senator Moran
1:13:40and then uh we've been joined by the
1:13:43chair Senator Cantwell she'll be next
1:13:45we're going to break at about 11 30 if
1:13:48that's okay because we have a vote
1:13:51um and then we'll reconvene okay
1:13:55Mr chairman thank you the conversation
1:13:57so far reminds me that you and I ought
1:13:59to resolve our differences and uh
1:14:01introduce legislation so as Senator
1:14:03thune said let's go to work our
1:14:05differences are very minor
1:14:08or they seem very minor in the face of
1:14:10the
1:14:12Revelations that we've now seen so I'm
1:14:14hoping we can move forward Senator
1:14:15Murray I I share that view Mr chairman
1:14:17thank you
1:14:18uh thank you very much for your
1:14:20testimony
1:14:22what examples do you know we've talked
1:14:24about particularly children teenage
1:14:26girls in specifically but what other
1:14:30examples do you know about where
1:14:32Facebook or Instagram
1:14:33knew its decisions would be harmful to
1:14:37its users but still proceeded with the
1:14:40with the plan and executed those harmful
1:14:44uh
1:14:46that harmful Behavior Facebook's
1:14:48internal research is aware that there
1:14:50are a variety of problems facing
1:14:51children on Instagram that are um
1:14:54uh
1:14:58they know that severe harm is happening
1:14:59to children for example in the case of
1:15:02bullying Facebook knows that Instagram
1:15:05dramatically changes the experience of
1:15:08high school so when we were in high
1:15:09school when I was in high school uh most
1:15:11kids you looked at me and changed your
1:15:13report sorry
1:15:16um the when I was in high school you
1:15:18know or most kids have have positive
1:15:20home lives like it doesn't matter how
1:15:21bad it is at school kids can go home and
1:15:24reset for 16 hours
1:15:27kids who are bullied on Instagram The
1:15:30Bullying follows them home it follows
1:15:32them into their bedrooms the last thing
1:15:34they see before they go to bed at night
1:15:36is someone being cruel to them or the
1:15:37first thing they see in the morning is
1:15:39someone being cruel to them kids are
1:15:41learning that their own friends like
1:15:43people who they who care about them are
1:15:45cruel to them like think about how
1:15:47that's going to impact their domestic
1:15:49relationships when they become 20
1:15:50somethings or 30 somethings to believe
1:15:52that people who care about you are mean
1:15:54to you
1:15:55um Facebook knows that parents today
1:15:57because they didn't experience these
1:15:59things they'd never experience this
1:16:00addictive experience with a piece of
1:16:02technology they give their children bad
1:16:04advice they say things like why don't
1:16:05you just stop using it and so that
1:16:07Facebook's own research is aware that
1:16:09children express feelings of loneliness
1:16:12and struggling with these things because
1:16:14they can't even get support from their
1:16:16own parents
1:16:17I don't understand how Facebook can know
1:16:19all these things and not escalate it to
1:16:23someone like Congress for help and
1:16:24support in navigating these problems let
1:16:26me ask the question in a broader way
1:16:28besides teenagers or besides girls or
1:16:31besides youth are there other practices
1:16:33at Facebook or Instagram that are known
1:16:35to be harmful but yet are pursued
1:16:39um
1:16:42uh Facebook is aware that choices are
1:16:45made in establishing like meaningful
1:16:47social meaningful social interactions so
1:16:50engagement based ranking that didn't
1:16:52care if you bullied someone or commit
1:16:53hate speech in the comments that was
1:16:55meaningful they know that that change
1:16:57directly changed Publishers behavior
1:17:00that companies like BuzzFeed wrote in
1:17:02and said the content is most successful
1:17:04on our platform is some of the content
1:17:05we're most ashamed of you have a problem
1:17:08with your ranking and they did nothing
1:17:09they know that
1:17:11politicians are being forced to take
1:17:13positions they know their own
1:17:14constituents don't like or approve of
1:17:16because those are the ones that get
1:17:17distributed on Facebook
1:17:19that's a huge huge negative impact the
1:17:23old Facebook also knows that they have
1:17:24admitted in public that engagement-based
1:17:27ranking is dangerous without integrity
1:17:29and security systems but then not rolled
1:17:31out those integrity and security systems
1:17:33to most of the languages in the world
1:17:35and that's what causing things like
1:17:37ethnic violence in Ethiopia thank you
1:17:39for your answer what is the magnitude of
1:17:43Facebook's revenues or profits that come
1:17:46from the sale of user data oh I'm I'm
1:17:50sorry I've never worked on that I'm not
1:17:51aware thank you
1:17:53um what regulations or legal actions by
1:17:57Congress or by administrative action do
1:18:00you think would have the most
1:18:01consequence or would be feared most by
1:18:03Facebook Instagram or aligned companies
1:18:07um I strongly encourage reforming
1:18:09section 230 to exempt
1:18:12decisions about algorithms right so
1:18:15modifying 230 around content I think has
1:18:18a it's very complicated because uh user
1:18:23generated content is something that
1:18:24companies have less control over they
1:18:26have a hundred percent control over
1:18:28their algorithms and Facebook should not
1:18:31get a free pass on choices it makes to
1:18:33prioritize growth and virality and
1:18:35reactiveness over Public Safety
1:18:38they shouldn't get a free pass on that
1:18:40because they're paying for their profits
1:18:41right now with our safety so I strongly
1:18:44encourage reform of 230 in that way I
1:18:46also believe there needs to be a
1:18:48dedicated oversight body because right
1:18:50now the only people in the world who are
1:18:51trained to analyze these experiments to
1:18:54understand what's happening inside of
1:18:55Facebook are people who you know grew up
1:18:58inside of Facebook or Pinterest or
1:19:00another social media company and there
1:19:02needs to be a regulatory home where
1:19:04someone like me could do a tour of Duty
1:19:06after working at a place like this and
1:19:09and have a place to work on things like
1:19:10regulation to bring that information out
1:19:12to the oversight boards that that have
1:19:15the right to to do oversight a
1:19:17regulatory agency within the federal
1:19:18government yes
1:19:20thank you very much thank you chairman
1:19:22Senator Cantwell thank you Mr chairman
1:19:25thank you for holding this hearing and I
1:19:27think my colleagues have brought up a
1:19:28lot of important issues and so I think I
1:19:30just want to continue on that vein first
1:19:32of all the Privacy Act that I introduced
1:19:34along with several of my colleagues
1:19:36actually does have FTC oversight of
1:19:39algorithm transparency in some instances
1:19:42I'd hope you take a look at that and
1:19:44tell us what other areas you think uh we
1:19:47should add to that level of transparency
1:19:50but um clearly that's the the issue at
1:19:53hand here I think in your coming forward
1:19:55so thank you again for your willingness
1:19:57to do that the documentation that you
1:20:00say now exists is uh the level of
1:20:03transparency about what's going on that
1:20:06people haven't been able to see and so
1:20:08your information that you say has gone
1:20:11up to the highest levels at Facebook is
1:20:15that they purposely knew that their
1:20:17algorithms were continuing to have
1:20:20misinformation and hate information
1:20:23and that when presented with information
1:20:25about this terminology uh you know
1:20:29Downstream MSI meaningful social
1:20:31information knowing that it was this
1:20:34choice you could continue this
1:20:36wrong-headed information hate
1:20:38information about the rohingya or you
1:20:40could continue to get higher
1:20:42click-through rates and I know you said
1:20:44you don't know about profits but I'm
1:20:45pretty sure you know that on a page if
1:20:47you click through that next page I'm
1:20:49pretty sure there's a lot more ad
1:20:50Revenue than if you didn't click through
1:20:53so you're saying the documents exist
1:20:55that at the highest level at Facebook
1:20:58you had information discussing these two
1:21:01choices and that people chose even
1:21:04though they knew that it was
1:21:05misinformation and hurtful and maybe
1:21:07even causing people lives they continued
1:21:10to choose profit
1:21:12we have submitted documents to Congress
1:21:13outlining
1:21:15um Mark Zuckerberg was directly
1:21:16presented with a list of quote soft
1:21:19interventions so a hard intervention is
1:21:21like taking a piece of content off
1:21:22Facebook taking a user off Facebook soft
1:21:24interventions are about making slightly
1:21:27different choices to make the platform
1:21:28less viral less Twitchy
1:21:31Marg was presented with these options
1:21:33and chose to not remove Downstream MSI
1:21:37in April of 2020 even though he in in
1:21:40even just isolated in at-risk countries
1:21:43that's countries at risk of violence
1:21:46um if it had any impact on the overall
1:21:49MSI metric so he chose which in
1:21:52Translation means less money yeah he he
1:21:55said right was there another reason
1:21:57given why they would do it other than
1:21:58they thought it would really affect
1:22:00their numbers
1:22:01um
1:22:02I do don't know for certain like Jeff
1:22:05Jeff Horowitz the report for the Wall
1:22:06Street Journal and I struggled with this
1:22:08because we sat there and read these
1:22:09minutes and we're like how is this
1:22:10possible like we've just read 100 pages
1:22:14on how Downstream MSI expands hate
1:22:17speech misinformation violence inciting
1:22:19content graphic violent content why
1:22:22wouldn't you get rid of this and we we
1:22:23the best theory that we've come up with
1:22:25and I want to emphasize this is just our
1:22:27interpretation on it is people's bonuses
1:22:28are tied to MSI right like people people
1:22:31stare or leave the company based on what
1:22:33they get paid and like if you hurt MSI a
1:22:37bunch of people didn't weren't going to
1:22:38get their bonuses so you're saying that
1:22:40this practice even still continues today
1:22:42like we're still in this environment I'm
1:22:44personally very frustrated by this
1:22:47because we presented information to
1:22:49Facebook from one of my own constituents
1:22:52in 2018
1:22:54talking about this issue with the
1:22:56rohingya pleading with the company we
1:22:59pleaded with the company and they
1:23:01continue to not address this issue now
1:23:04you're pointing out that these same
1:23:05algorithms are being used and they know
1:23:08darn well in Ethiopia that it's causing
1:23:11an inciting violence and again they are
1:23:13still today choosing profit overtaking
1:23:15this information down is that correct
1:23:17when writing began in the United States
1:23:19in the summer of last year they turned
1:23:21off Downstream MSI only for when they
1:23:24detected content was Health content
1:23:26which is probably covet and um Civic
1:23:29content but Facebook's own algorithms
1:23:31are bad at finding this content it's
1:23:33still in the raw form for 80 90 of even
1:23:37that sensitive content in countries
1:23:39where they don't have integrity systems
1:23:41in the language local language and in
1:23:43the case of Ethiopia there are 100
1:23:45million people in Ethiopia and six
1:23:46languages Facebook only supports two of
1:23:49those languages for integrity systems
1:23:51this strategy of focusing on language
1:23:54specific content specific systems AI to
1:23:57save us is doomed to fail I need to get
1:24:00to one first of all I'm sending a letter
1:24:01to Facebook today they better not delete
1:24:03any information as it relates to the
1:24:05rohingya or investigations about how
1:24:07they proceeded on this particularly on
1:24:09in light of your information or the
1:24:11documents but aren't we also now talking
1:24:13about advertising fraud aren't you
1:24:16selling something to advertisers that's
1:24:18not really what they're getting we know
1:24:20about this because of the newspaper
1:24:21issues we're trying to say that
1:24:23journalism that basically has to meet a
1:24:25different standard a public interest
1:24:27standard that basically is out there
1:24:29basically proving every day or they can
1:24:31be sued these guys are a social media
1:24:34platform that doesn't have to live with
1:24:35that and then the consequences they're
1:24:37telling their advertisers that this was
1:24:39we see it we see it people are coming
1:24:41back to the local journalism because
1:24:43they're like we want to be against with
1:24:45a trusted brand we don't want to be in
1:24:47you know your website so I I think
1:24:49you're finding for the SEC
1:24:51is an interesting one but I think that
1:24:53we also have to look at what are the
1:24:54other issues here and one of them is did
1:24:56you defrost did they defraud advertisers
1:24:58and telling them this was the
1:24:59advertising content that you were going
1:25:01to be advertised again when in reality
1:25:03it was something different it was based
1:25:04on a different model we have multiple
1:25:06examples of um question and answers for
1:25:09the advertising staff the sales staff
1:25:11where advertisers say after the riots
1:25:14last summer were asked should we come
1:25:15back to Facebook or after the
1:25:17Insurrection like should we come back to
1:25:19Facebook and Facebook said in their
1:25:22talking points that they gave to
1:25:23advertisers we're doing everything in
1:25:25our power to make this safer or we take
1:25:27down all the hate speech when we find it
1:25:28but Facebook's own and that was not true
1:25:30that was not true they get three to five
1:25:32percent of hate speech thank you thank
1:25:34you Mr chairman thanks Senator Cantwell
1:25:37um and if you want to make your letter
1:25:39available to other members of the
1:25:41committee I'd be glad to join you myself
1:25:43thank you thank you for suggesting it
1:25:46thank you um
1:25:48Senator Lee
1:25:51thank you Mr chairman and thank you Ms
1:25:53Haugen for joining us this week it's
1:25:55very very helpful we're grateful that
1:25:58you're willing to make yourself
1:25:59available
1:26:00last week we had another witness from
1:26:03Facebook Ms Davis she came and she
1:26:06testified before this committee and she
1:26:08focused on among other things the extent
1:26:11to which Facebook targets ads to
1:26:13Children including ads that are either
1:26:16sexually suggestive or geared toward
1:26:19adult themed
1:26:20products or themes in general
1:26:23now I didn't I I well I appreciated her
1:26:26willingness to be here I didn't get the
1:26:28clearest answers in response to some of
1:26:30those questions and so I'm hoping that
1:26:32you can help shed some light on some of
1:26:34those issues related to Facebook's
1:26:37advertising processes here today as we
1:26:39get into this I want to first read you a
1:26:41quote that I got from from Ms Davis uh
1:26:45last week here's what she said during
1:26:47her questioning quote
1:26:49when we do ads to young people there are
1:26:52only three things that an Advertiser can
1:26:55Target around age gender location
1:26:58we also prohibit certain ads to young
1:27:01people including weight loss ads we
1:27:03don't allow tobacco ads at all meaning
1:27:06to young people we don't allow them to
1:27:08children we don't allow them to minors
1:27:10close quote
1:27:12now since that exchange happened
1:27:14um last week uh there are a number of
1:27:17individuals and groups including a group
1:27:19called the technology transparency
1:27:21project or TDP that have indicated that
1:27:25that part of our testimony was
1:27:27inaccurate that it was false TDP noted
1:27:30that TDP had conducted an experiment
1:27:34just last month and their their goal was
1:27:38to run a series of ads that would be
1:27:42targeted to children ages 13 to 17 to
1:27:46users in the United States now I want to
1:27:49emphasize that TDP didn't end up running
1:27:52these ads
1:27:54they stopped them from being distributed
1:27:56to to users but Facebook did in fact
1:28:00approve them and as I understand it
1:28:02Facebook approved them for an audience
1:28:04of up to 9.1 million users all of whom
1:28:07were teens so I brought a few of these
1:28:09to show you today this is this is the
1:28:11first one I wanted to show showcase this
1:28:13first one has a colorful graphic
1:28:17encouraging kids to quote throw a
1:28:19skittles party like no other
1:28:22which you know as the graphic indicates
1:28:25and as as the slang jargon uh also
1:28:28independently suggests this involves
1:28:31kids getting together
1:28:33randomly to abuse prescription drugs
1:28:36the second graphic displays an annotip
1:28:40that is a tip specifically designed to
1:28:44encourage and promote anorexia
1:28:48and um it's on there now the language
1:28:50the anatip itself independently promotes
1:28:53that the ad also promotes it in so far
1:28:56as it was suggesting uh these are images
1:28:58you ought to look at when you need
1:29:00motivation to be more anorexic I guess
1:29:03you could say
1:29:04um
1:29:06now the third one invites children to
1:29:08find their partner online and to make a
1:29:11love connection you look lonely find
1:29:13your partner now to make a love
1:29:15connection now look it'd be an entirely
1:29:17different kettle of fish if this were
1:29:19targeted to an adult audience it is not
1:29:21it's targeted to 13 to 17 year olds now
1:29:25obviously I don't support and and TDP
1:29:28does not support these messages
1:29:30particularly when targeted to
1:29:32impressionable children and and again
1:29:35just to be clear TDP did not end up
1:29:37pushing the ads
1:29:39out after receiving Facebook's approval
1:29:41but it did in fact receive Facebook's
1:29:45approval
1:29:46um so I think this says something one
1:29:50could argue that it proves that Facebook
1:29:52is allowing and and perhaps facilitating
1:29:55the targeting of harmful adult-themed
1:29:57ads
1:29:58to our nation's children
1:30:00so could you please explain to me Ms
1:30:03Haugen
1:30:04um how these ads uh with a target
1:30:08audience
1:30:10of 13 to 17 year old children
1:30:14how would they possibly be approved by
1:30:16Facebook and it is AI involved in that
1:30:21um
1:30:22I did not work directly on the ad
1:30:24approval system
1:30:26um uh what was resonant for me about
1:30:28your testimony is Facebook
1:30:31has a deep focus on scale so scale is
1:30:35can we do things very cheaply for a huge
1:30:37number of people which is part of why
1:30:38they rely on AI so much it is very
1:30:41possible that none of those ads were
1:30:42seen by a human and the reality is that
1:30:45we've seen from repeated documents
1:30:46within my disclosures is that Facebook's
1:30:49AI systems only catch a very tiny
1:30:52minority of offending content and best
1:30:55case scenario in the case of something
1:30:56like hate speech at most they will ever
1:30:58get 10 to 20 percent in the case of
1:31:00children that means drug paraphernalia
1:31:03ads like that uh it's likely if they
1:31:05rely on computers and not humans they
1:31:08will also likely never get more than 10
1:31:10to 20 of those ads understood Mr
1:31:12chairman I've got one minor follow-up
1:31:14question would uh it should be easy to
1:31:16answer go ahead
1:31:18um so well Facebook may claim that it
1:31:23only targets ads based on age gender and
1:31:27location
1:31:27um
1:31:28even though
1:31:30these things uh seem to counteract that
1:31:33but let's set that aside for a minute
1:31:35and that they're not facing ads uh based
1:31:39on specific interest categories does
1:31:40Facebook still collect interest category
1:31:43data on teenagers even if they aren't at
1:31:47that moment
1:31:48targeting ads at teens based on those
1:31:52interest categories I it's very
1:31:54important to differentiate between what
1:31:55targeting our advertisers allowed to
1:31:58specify
1:31:59targeting Facebook May learn for an ad
1:32:02let's imagine you had some text on an ad
1:32:04it would likely extract out features
1:32:07that it thought was relevant for that ad
1:32:08for example
1:32:10in the case of something about partying
1:32:13it would learn parting is a concept
1:32:15I'm very suspicious that personalized
1:32:18ads are still not being delivered to
1:32:20teenagers on Instagram because the
1:32:23algorithms learn correlations they learn
1:32:25interactions where your party ad may
1:32:28still go to kids interested in partying
1:32:30because Facebook is Prof is almost
1:32:33certainly has a ranking model in the
1:32:35background that it says this person
1:32:37wants more party related content
1:32:39interesting uh thank you that's very
1:32:41helpful and what that suggests to me is
1:32:43that while they're they're saying
1:32:45they're not targeting
1:32:46teens with those ads the algorithm might
1:32:49do some of that work for them which
1:32:51might explain why they collect the data
1:32:53even while claiming that they're not
1:32:54targeting Those ads in that way I can't
1:32:56speak to whether or not that's the
1:32:57intention but the reality is it's very
1:32:59very difficult to
1:33:01on these algorithms today
1:33:03over and over and over again we saw
1:33:05these biases the algorithms
1:33:07unintentionally learn and so yeah it's
1:33:09very hard to disentangle out these
1:33:12factors as long as you have engagement
1:33:13based ranking thank you Ms Haugen
1:33:16thank you very much Senator Lee uh
1:33:20Senator Margie thank you Mr chairman
1:33:23very much
1:33:25thank you Miss Hogan you you are a 21st
1:33:29century American hero wanting our
1:33:33country of the danger
1:33:35for young people
1:33:37or on democracy and our nation owes you
1:33:40uh of just a huge debt of gratitude for
1:33:45the courage you're showing here today so
1:33:47thank you
1:33:48um Miss Hogan um do you agree that
1:33:50Facebook actively seeks to attract
1:33:53children and teens onto its platforms
1:33:55and Facebook actively markets to
1:33:58children or markets to children under
1:34:00the age of 18
1:34:02um to get on Instagram and definitely uh
1:34:04targets each children as young as eight
1:34:06to be on um messenger kits an internal
1:34:09Facebook document from 2020 that you
1:34:11reveal reads why did we care about
1:34:13tweens they are valuable but untapped
1:34:17audience so Facebook only cares about
1:34:20children to the extent that they are a
1:34:22monetary value last week Facebook's
1:34:26Global head of safety Antigone Davis
1:34:30told me that Facebook does not allow
1:34:34targeting of certain harmful content to
1:34:36teens Miss Davis stated we don't allow
1:34:39weight loss ads to shown to people under
1:34:41the age of 18. yet a recent study found
1:34:45that Facebook permitted targeting of
1:34:47teens as young as 13 with ads that
1:34:49showed a young woman's thin waste
1:34:52promoting websites that glorify anorexia
1:34:54Miss Hogan based on your time at
1:34:57Facebook do you think Facebook is
1:34:59telling the truth
1:35:00I think Facebook has focused on scale
1:35:04over safety and it is likely that they
1:35:07are using
1:35:08artificial intelligence to try to
1:35:11identify harmful ads without allowing
1:35:14the public oversight to see what is the
1:35:16actual effectiveness of those safety
1:35:18systems you Unearthed Facebook's
1:35:21research about its harm to teens did you
1:35:23raise this issue with your supervisors
1:35:26um I did not work directly on anything
1:35:29involving Teen Mental Health This
1:35:31research is freely available to anyone
1:35:32in the company Mr Davis testified last
1:35:36week quote we don't allow tobacco ads at
1:35:38all we don't allow them to Children
1:35:41either we don't allow alcohol adds to
1:35:44minors however researchers also found
1:35:47that Facebook does allow targeting of
1:35:49teens with ads on vaping Ms Haugen based
1:35:53on your time at Facebook do you think
1:35:55Facebook is telling the truth
1:35:58um I do not have context on that that
1:35:59issue
1:36:00um I assume that if they are using
1:36:02artificial intelligence to catch those
1:36:04Vape ads unquestionably ads are making
1:36:06its way through okay
1:36:08um so from my perspective listening to
1:36:11you and your incredibly courageous
1:36:13Revelations time and time again Facebook
1:36:16says one thing and does another
1:36:19time and time again Facebook fails to
1:36:21abide by the commitments that they had
1:36:24made time and time again Facebook lies
1:36:27about what they are doing yesterday
1:36:30Facebook had a platform outage but for
1:36:33years it has had a principles outage
1:36:35it's only real principle is profit
1:36:39Facebook's platforms are not safe for
1:36:41young people as you said Facebook is
1:36:43like big tobacco enticing young kids
1:36:46with that first cigarette that first
1:36:48social media account designed to hook
1:36:50kids as users for Life Miss Hogan you
1:36:54know whistleblowing shows that Facebook
1:36:55uses harmful features that quantify
1:36:58popularity push manipulative influencer
1:37:01marketing amplify harmful content to
1:37:05teens and last week in this committee
1:37:08Facebook wouldn't even commit to not
1:37:11using these features on 10 year olds
1:37:14Facebook is built on computer codes of
1:37:18misconduct
1:37:20Senator Blumenthal and I have introduced
1:37:24the kids internet design and safety act
1:37:26the kids act
1:37:28you have asked us to act as a committee
1:37:32and Facebook has scores of lobbyists in
1:37:36the city right now coming in right after
1:37:38this hearing to tell us we can't act
1:37:41and have been successful for a decade in
1:37:45blocking this committee from acting
1:37:48so let me ask you a question
1:37:50the kids internet design and safety act
1:37:53are the kids act here's what the
1:37:55legislation does and includes outright
1:37:58bans on children's app features that one
1:38:02quantify popularity with likes and
1:38:04follow accounts promotes two that two
1:38:09promotes influencer marketing and three
1:38:11that amplifies a toxic posts and that it
1:38:16would prohibit Facebook from using its
1:38:19algorithms to promote toxic posts should
1:38:23we pass that legislation
1:38:25I strongly encourage reforms that push
1:38:29us towards human scale social media and
1:38:31not computer driven social media those
1:38:34amplification harms are caused by
1:38:36computers choosing what's important to
1:38:37us not our friends and family and I
1:38:40encourage any system that children are
1:38:42exposed to to not use amplification
1:38:44systems so you agree that Congress has
1:38:47to enact these special protections for
1:38:50children and teens that stop social
1:38:51media companies from manipulating young
1:38:54users and threatening their well-being
1:38:56to stop using its algorithm to harm kids
1:39:00you agree with that I I do believe
1:39:02Congress must act protect children and
1:39:05children and teens also needed privacy
1:39:07online Bill of Rights I'm the author of
1:39:09The Children's online privacy protection
1:39:11act of 1998. but it's only for kids
1:39:15under 13 because the industry stopped me
1:39:17from making it age 16. in 1998 because
1:39:21it was already their business model
1:39:24but we need to update that law for the
1:39:2521st century
1:39:27tell me if this should pass one create
1:39:29an online eraser button so that young
1:39:32users can tell websites to delete the
1:39:34data they have collected about them two
1:39:38give young teens under the age of 16 and
1:39:41their parents control of their
1:39:43information and three banned targeted
1:39:46ads to children I support all those
1:39:49actions thank you uh and
1:39:52um and finally I've also introduced the
1:39:55algorithmic justice and online platform
1:39:58transparency act which would one open
1:40:02the hood on Facebook and big text
1:40:06algorithms so we know how Facebook is
1:40:10using our data to decide what content we
1:40:14see and two ban discriminatory
1:40:17algorithms that harm vulnerable
1:40:20populations online like showing
1:40:22employment and housing adds to white
1:40:25people but not to black people in our
1:40:30country should Congress pass that bill
1:40:33um algorithmic bias issues are a major
1:40:35issue for our democracy
1:40:37um during my time at Pinterest I became
1:40:39very
1:40:40um aware of the challenges of like I
1:40:43mentioned before it's difficult for us
1:40:45to understand how these algorithms
1:40:46actually act and perform Facebook is
1:40:48aware of complaints today by people like
1:40:51African Americans saying that reels
1:40:52doesn't give African-Americans the same
1:40:56distribution as white people and and
1:40:58until we have transparency and our
1:41:00ability to confirm ourselves the
1:41:03Facebook's marketing messages are true
1:41:05we will not have a system that is
1:41:07compatible with democracy so I and I and
1:41:10I I thank Senator Lee I agree with you
1:41:12uh and your line of questions I wrote
1:41:15Facebook asking them to explain that
1:41:17discrepancy because Facebook I think is
1:41:20lying about targeting 13 to 15 year olds
1:41:22so here's my message for Mark Zuckerberg
1:41:26your time of invading our privacy
1:41:30promoting toxic content and praying on
1:41:33children in teens is over Congress will
1:41:38be taking action you can work with us on
1:41:42not work with us but we will not allow
1:41:44your company to harm our children and
1:41:48our families and our democracy any
1:41:51longer thank you Mrs Hogan we will act
1:41:56Senator Markey uh we're going to turn to
1:41:59Senator Blackburn and then uh
1:42:03we will take a break
1:42:05uh I know that uh
1:42:08there is some interest in another round
1:42:11of questions maybe uh
1:42:13well
1:42:15uh maybe we'll turn to Senator Lujan for
1:42:18his questions
1:42:20Cruz and Scott and we have others so
1:42:23we'll come back after the Mr chairman
1:42:25yeah I have to go to sit in the chair
1:42:29um starting at noon today we turn uh
1:42:34just
1:42:35I do I have one question this relates to
1:42:39what Mr Markey was asking does Facebook
1:42:44ever employ child psychologist or mental
1:42:47health professionals to deal with these
1:42:51children online issues that we're
1:42:54discussing Facebook has many researchers
1:42:56with phds I assume some of them are I
1:43:00know that some have psychology degrees
1:43:02I'm not sure if they are child
1:43:04Specialists Facebook also works with
1:43:06external agencies that are specialists
1:43:08at children's rights online
1:43:11Senator Lujan and then at the conclusion
1:43:14of Senator lujan's questions we'll take
1:43:16a break we'll come back
1:43:19um
1:43:20at noon thank you Mr chairman and I
1:43:24appreciate the Indulgence of the
1:43:25committee Ms Hogan last week the
1:43:28committee heard directly from Miss Davis
1:43:30the global head of safety for Facebook
1:43:33during the hearing the company contested
1:43:36their own
1:43:37internal research as if it does not
1:43:40exist
1:43:42yes or no does Facebook have internal
1:43:45research indicating that Instagram harms
1:43:48teens particularly harming perceptions
1:43:51of body image which disproportionately
1:43:54affects young women
1:43:55yes Facebook has extensive research on
1:43:58the impacts of its products on teenagers
1:44:00including young women thank you for
1:44:02confirming these reports last week I
1:44:04requested Facebook make the basis of
1:44:06This research the data set minus any
1:44:09personally identifiable information
1:44:11available to this committee do you
1:44:14believe it is important for transparency
1:44:16and safety that Facebook release the
1:44:18basis of this internal research the core
1:44:21data set to allow for independent
1:44:23analysis
1:44:24I believe it is vitally important for
1:44:26our democracy that we establish
1:44:28mechanisms where Facebook's internal
1:44:30research must be disclosed to the public
1:44:31on a regular basis and that we need to
1:44:34have privacy sensitive data sets that
1:44:36allow independent researchers to confirm
1:44:39whether or not Facebook's marketing
1:44:40messages are actually true
1:44:42Beyond this particular research should
1:44:44Facebook make its internal primary
1:44:46research not just secondary slide decks
1:44:49of cherry pick data but the underlying
1:44:51data public by default can this be done
1:44:54in a way that respects user privacy I
1:44:57believe in collaboration with academics
1:44:59and other researchers that we can
1:45:00develop privacy conscious ways of
1:45:03exposing radically more data that is
1:45:05available today it is important for our
1:45:07ability to understand how algorithms
1:45:08work how Facebook shapes the information
1:45:10we get to see that we have these data
1:45:13sets be publicly available for scrutiny
1:45:15is Facebook capable of making the right
1:45:17decision here on its own or is
1:45:19regulation needed to create real
1:45:21transparency at Facebook until
1:45:22incentives change at Facebook we should
1:45:24not expect Facebook to change we need
1:45:26action from Congress last week I asked
1:45:29Miss Davis about Shadow profiles for
1:45:31children on the site and she answered
1:45:34that no data is ever collected on
1:45:36children under 13 because they are not
1:45:38allowed to make accounts this tactfully
1:45:40ignores the issue Facebook knows
1:45:43children use their platform however
1:45:45instead of seeing this as a problem to
1:45:47be solved Facebook views this as a
1:45:49business opportunity yes or no does
1:45:51Facebook conduct research on children
1:45:53under 13 examining the business
1:45:55opportunities of connecting these young
1:45:57children to Facebook's products I want
1:46:00to emphasize how vital it is that
1:46:01Facebook bookshaft to publish the
1:46:03mechanisms by which it tries to detect
1:46:05these children because they are on the
1:46:07platform in far greater numbers than
1:46:08anyone is aware I do believe that or I
1:46:11am aware that Facebook is doing research
1:46:13on children under the age of 13 and they
1:46:15have those studies are included in my
1:46:17disclosure you have shared your concerns
1:46:19about how Senior Management at Facebook
1:46:22has continuously prioritized Revenue
1:46:24over potential user harm and safety and
1:46:27I have a few questions on Facebook's
1:46:30decision making last week I asked Miss
1:46:32Davis quote has Facebook ever found a
1:46:35change to its platform would potentially
1:46:38inflict harm on users but Facebook moved
1:46:41forward because the change would also
1:46:43grow users or increase Revenue Miss
1:46:46Davis said in response quote it's not
1:46:49been my experience at all at Facebook
1:46:51that's just not how we would approach it
1:46:54yes or no has Facebook ever found a
1:46:57feature on its platform harmed its users
1:46:59but the feature moved forward because it
1:47:01would also grow users or increase
1:47:03Revenue
1:47:05Facebook likes to paint that these
1:47:07issues are really complicated there are
1:47:09lots of simple issues for example
1:47:11requiring someone to click through on a
1:47:13link before you re-share it that's not a
1:47:16large imposition but it does decrease
1:47:17growth a tiny little amount because in
1:47:20some countries uh reshares make up 35 of
1:47:23all the content that people see Facebook
1:47:25prioritized that content on the system
1:47:27the reshares over the impacts to
1:47:29misinformation hate speech or violence
1:47:31incitement
1:47:32did these decisions ever come from Mark
1:47:34Zuckerberg directly or from other Senior
1:47:37Management at Facebook
1:47:40um we have a few Choice documents that
1:47:42contain notes from briefings with Mark
1:47:44Zuckerberg where he chose metrics
1:47:48defined by Facebook like meaningful
1:47:50social interactions over changes that
1:47:52would have significantly decreased
1:47:53misinformation hate speech and other
1:47:55inciting content and this is the
1:47:57reference you shared earlier to Ms
1:47:58catwell April of uh 2020. the soft
1:48:02interventions Facebook appeared to be
1:48:04able to count on the Silence of its
1:48:06Workforce for a long time even as it
1:48:09knowingly continued practices and
1:48:10policies that continue to cause and
1:48:13amplify harm Facebook content moderators
1:48:16have called out quote a culture of fear
1:48:18and secrecy within the company that
1:48:20prevented them from speaking out is
1:48:22there a culture if you're at Facebook
1:48:24around whistleblowing and external
1:48:25accountability
1:48:27uh Facebook has a culture that that that
1:48:30emphasizes that that insularity is the
1:48:34path forward that if information is
1:48:36shared with the public it will just be
1:48:38misunderstood
1:48:39and I believe that relationship has to
1:48:41change the only way that we will solve
1:48:43these problems is by solving them
1:48:44together and we'll have much better more
1:48:46democratic Solutions if we do it
1:48:48collaboratively than in isolation and my
1:48:50final question is there a senior level
1:48:52executive at Facebook Like An Inspector
1:48:55General who's responsible for ensuring
1:48:57complaints from Facebook employees are
1:48:59taken seriously and that employees legal
1:49:02ethical and moral concerns receive
1:49:04consideration with the real possibility
1:49:06of instigating change to company
1:49:08policies
1:49:10um I'm not aware of that role but the
1:49:12company is large and amazed
1:49:14I appreciate that it's my understanding
1:49:16that there's a gentleman uh by the name
1:49:19of Roy Austin who is the vice president
1:49:22of civil rights who's described himself
1:49:24as An Inspector General but he does not
1:49:27have the authority to make these
1:49:28internal conflicts public the oversight
1:49:31board was created by Facebook to review
1:49:33moderation policies related to public
1:49:35content specifically it was not created
1:49:38to allow employees to raise concerns
1:49:41um so again another area of Interest I
1:49:43believe that we have to act on I thank
1:49:44you for coming forward today
1:49:46my pleasure
1:49:48happy to serve
1:49:52the committee is in recess
1:50:25foreign
1:50:56foreign
1:50:58so the Senate Commerce science and
1:51:00transportation subcommittee on consumer
1:51:02protection product safety and data
1:51:04security has gone into recess to allow
1:51:07members to vote on the senate floor
1:51:09they've been hearing testimony today
1:51:11from Francis Haugen a Facebook
1:51:13whistleblower on her experiences at the
1:51:15social media company and how to better
1:51:17protect Children online with privacy
1:51:19regulations and laws we'll return to
1:51:21live coverage when they resume here on
1:51:23C-Span so while we wait for the
1:51:26committee to resume we'll show you a
1:51:28portion of the hearing from earlier
1:51:29today
1:51:42thank you
1:51:45for success
1:52:13foreign
1:52:16the meeting and hearing of the
1:52:19subcommittee on consumer protection of
1:52:21the Commerce Committee will come to
1:52:23order uh I'm very pleased to
1:52:27welcome my colleagues and I want to
1:52:30thank uh ranking member Senator
1:52:33Blackburn for your cooperation and
1:52:36collaboration we've been working very
1:52:37closely
1:52:39and the ranking member who is here
1:52:41Senator wicker as well as our
1:52:44chairwoman Maria Cantwell Senator
1:52:47Cantwell I'm sure will be here shortly
1:52:49most important I'd like to thank our
1:52:52Witness
1:52:53Francis Haugen
1:52:55for being here and the two Council who
1:52:58are representing her
1:53:00today and I want to give you my
1:53:03heartfelt
1:53:05gratitude for your courage
1:53:07and strength in coming forward as you
1:53:10have done standing up to one of the most
1:53:12powerful implacable corporate Giants in
1:53:15the history of the world without any
1:53:18exaggeration you have a compelling
1:53:21credible voice which we've heard already
1:53:26but you are not here alone
1:53:29you're armed with documents and evidence
1:53:33and you speak volumes as they do about
1:53:37how Facebook has put profits ahead of
1:53:41people
1:53:43among other Revelations the information
1:53:45that you have provided to Congress
1:53:48is powerful proof that Facebook knew its
1:53:53products were harming teenagers
1:53:55Facebook exploited teens using powerful
1:53:59algorithms that Amplified their
1:54:01insecurities and abuses through what it
1:54:04found
1:54:05was an addict's narrative
1:54:09there is a question
1:54:11which I hope you will discuss as to
1:54:13whether there is such a thing as a safe
1:54:16algorithm
1:54:19Facebook sought teens creating secret
1:54:22accounts
1:54:23that are often hidden from their parents
1:54:27as unique value proposition in their
1:54:32words a unique value proposition a way
1:54:35to drive up numbers for advertisers and
1:54:37shareholders at the expense of safety
1:54:42and it doubled down on targeting
1:54:44children pushing products on pre-teams
1:54:47not just teens but pre-teens
1:54:50that it knows are harmful to our kids
1:54:52mental health and well-being instead of
1:54:55telling parents Facebook concealed the
1:54:58facts it sought to Stonewall and blocked
1:55:01this information from becoming public
1:55:03including to this committee when Senator
1:55:05Blackburn and I specifically asked the
1:55:09company
1:55:10and still even now
1:55:13as of just last Thursday when a Facebook
1:55:15witness came before this committee it
1:55:17has refused disclosure or even to tell
1:55:20us when it might decide whether to
1:55:23disclose additional documents
1:55:26and they've continued their tactics even
1:55:29after they knew the destruction it
1:55:32caused
1:55:34it isn't just that they made money
1:55:36from these practices but they continued
1:55:39to profit from them
1:55:41their profit was more important than the
1:55:45pain that they caused
1:55:47last Thursday the message from Ms
1:55:50Antigone Davis Facebook's Global head of
1:55:52safety was simple
1:55:54quote This research is not a bombshell
1:55:58end quote
1:55:59and she repeated the line not a
1:56:02bombshell
1:56:04well
1:56:05This research is
1:56:08the very definition of a bombshell
1:56:11Facebook and big Tech are facing a big
1:56:14tobacco Omen a moment of Reckoning
1:56:18the parallel is striking I sued big
1:56:21tobacco as Connecticut's attorney
1:56:22general I helped to lead
1:56:24the states in that legal action and I
1:56:27remember very very well
1:56:30the moment
1:56:32in the course of our litigation when we
1:56:34learned of those files that showed
1:56:39not only that big tobacco knew that its
1:56:41product caused cancer
1:56:43but that they had done the research they
1:56:45concealed the files
1:56:48and
1:56:49now we knew and the world knew and big
1:56:52Tech now faces that big tobacco
1:56:56jaw-dropping Moment of Truth it is
1:57:00documented proof that Facebook knows its
1:57:03products can be addictive and toxic to
1:57:06children and it's not just that they
1:57:08made money again it's that they valued
1:57:12their profit
1:57:14more than the pain that they cause to
1:57:17children and their families
1:57:20the damage to self-interest and
1:57:23self-worth inflicted by Facebook today
1:57:27will haunt a generation
1:57:32feelings of inadequacy and insecurity
1:57:34rejection and self-hatred
1:57:38will impact
1:57:40this generation for years to come our
1:57:43children
1:57:45are the ones who are victims teens today
1:57:47looking at themselves in the mirror
1:57:52feel doubt and insecurity
1:57:57Mark Zuckerberg ought to be looking at
1:57:59himself in the mirror today
1:58:02and yet rather than taking
1:58:03responsibility
1:58:05and showing leadership
1:58:07Mr Zuckerberg is going sailing
1:58:11his new modus operandi no apologies no
1:58:15admission no action nothing to see here
1:58:19Mark Zuckerberg you need to come before
1:58:21this committee you need to explain
1:58:23to Francis Haugen
1:58:26to us to the world
1:58:29and to the parents of America
1:58:33what you were doing and why you did it
1:58:36Instagram's business model is pretty
1:58:38straightforward more eyeballs more
1:58:40dollars everything Facebook does is to
1:58:43add more users and keep them on their
1:58:46apps for longer in order to hook us
1:58:49Instagram uses our private information
1:58:52to precisely Target us with content and
1:58:56recommendations
1:58:58assessing that
1:59:00what will provoke a reaction
1:59:03Will Keep Us scrolling
1:59:05far too often these recommendations
1:59:07encourage our most destructive and
1:59:10dangerous behaviors as we showed on
1:59:14Thursday
1:59:15we created a fake account my office and
1:59:18I did as a teen interested in extreme
1:59:21dieting and eating disorders Instagram
1:59:26latched on to that teenager's initial
1:59:29insecurities that then pushed more
1:59:31content and recommendations
1:59:33glorifying eating disorders
1:59:36that's how Instagram's algorithms
1:59:40can push teens into darker and darker
1:59:43places Facebook's own researchers
1:59:46called it Instagram's quote Perfect
1:59:50Storm
1:59:52exacerbating downward spirals
1:59:56Facebook as you have put it Miss Hogan
1:59:59so powerfully maximizes profits and
2:00:02ignores pain
2:00:04Facebook's failure to acknowledge and to
2:00:07act makes it morally bankrupt
2:00:09again and again Facebook rejected
2:00:12reforms recommended by its own research
2:00:15last week Miss Davis said quote we're
2:00:18looking at end quote
2:00:20no specific plans no commitments only
2:00:24vague platitudes
2:00:28these documents that you have revealed
2:00:31provided this company with a blueprint
2:00:33for reform provided specific
2:00:35recommendation
2:00:36it could have made Facebook and
2:00:40Instagram say for the company repeatedly
2:00:43ignored those recommendations from its
2:00:46own
2:00:47researchers
2:00:49that would have made Facebook and
2:00:52Instagram safer faith Facebook
2:00:54researchers have suggested
2:00:57changing their recommendations
2:01:00to stop promoting accounts known to
2:01:03encourage
2:01:04dangerous body comparison
2:01:08instead of making meaningful changes
2:01:10Facebook simply pays lip service
2:01:14and if they won't act
2:01:17and if big Tech won't Act Congress has
2:01:21to intervene
2:01:22privacy protection is long overdue
2:01:26Senator Markey and I have introduced the
2:01:27kids act which would ban addictive
2:01:30tactics that Facebook uses to exploit
2:01:33children parents deserve better tools to
2:01:36protect their children
2:01:38I'm also a firm supporter of reforming
2:01:40section 230
2:01:42we should consider narrowing this
2:01:44sweeping immunity when platforms
2:01:46algorithms
2:01:48amplify illegal conduct you've commented
2:01:51on this in your testimony and perhaps
2:01:53you'll expand on it
2:01:55we have also heard compelling
2:01:56recommendations about requiring
2:01:58disclosures of research and independent
2:02:01reviews of these platforms algorithms
2:02:03and I plan to pursue these ideas
2:02:07the Securities and Exchange Commission
2:02:09should investigate your
2:02:12contentions and claims
2:02:14Ms Haugen and so should the Federal
2:02:17Trade Commission Facebook appears to
2:02:20have misled the public and investors and
2:02:24if that's correct it ought to face real
2:02:26penalties as a result of that misleading
2:02:29and deceptive
2:02:30misrepresentation
2:02:36I want to thank all my colleagues who
2:02:39are here today because
2:02:41what we have is a bipartisan
2:02:43Congressional roadmap for reform that
2:02:47will safeguard and protect children from
2:02:49Big Tech
2:02:51that will be a focus of our subcommittee
2:02:53moving forward and it will continue
2:02:55continue to be bipartisan
2:02:58and finally I'll just end on this note
2:03:01in the past weeks and days parents have
2:03:04contacted me
2:03:06with their stories heartbreaking
2:03:09and spine chilling stories about
2:03:12children pushed into eating disorders
2:03:16bullying online
2:03:18self-injury of the most
2:03:21disturbing kind
2:03:23and sometimes even taking their lives
2:03:26because of social media
2:03:29parents are holding Facebook accountable
2:03:31because of your bravery is having
2:03:34and we need to hold accountable Facebook
2:03:37and all big Tech as well again my thanks
2:03:41to you
2:03:42I am going to enter into the record a
2:03:45letter from 52 State Attorneys General
2:03:47and from two members of the youth
2:03:50Advisory Board of Sandy Hook promise as
2:03:54long as there's no objection and I will
2:03:56now turn to the ranking Member Center
2:03:58platform
2:04:00thank you Mr chairman and thank you for
2:04:02entering that letter in the record that
2:04:05we have from our State's Attorneys
2:04:07General good morning to everyone it is
2:04:10nice to see people in this hearing room
2:04:13and uh to be here for the hearing today
2:04:16Miss Haugen we thank you for your
2:04:19appearance before us today and for
2:04:21giving the opportunity not only for
2:04:23congress but for uh for the American
2:04:26people to hear from you in this setting
2:04:30and we appreciate that Mr chairman I
2:04:32think also thanks to you and your staff
2:04:35that have worked with our team to make
2:04:38certain that we had this hearing in this
2:04:41opportunity uh today so that we can get
2:04:45more insights into what Facebook is
2:04:48actually doing as they invade the
2:04:52Privacy not only of adults but of
2:04:55children and look at the ways that they
2:04:57are in violation of the children's
2:04:59online and privacy protection act which
2:05:02is federal law
2:05:04and looking at how they are evading that
2:05:08law and working around it and as the
2:05:11chairman said a privacy and online
2:05:15privacy passing a federal privacy
2:05:18standard has been long in the works I
2:05:21filed my first privacy bill when I was
2:05:24in the house back in 2012 and I think
2:05:29that it will be this Congress and this
2:05:31subcommittee that is going to lead the
2:05:34way to online privacy data security
2:05:36section 230 reforms and of course
2:05:40Senator Klobuchar always wants to talk
2:05:43about Anti-Trust and I have to give an
2:05:45odd Senator Markie is down there when we
2:05:49were in the house we were probably two
2:05:51of the only ones who were talking about
2:05:54the need to have a federal privacy
2:05:57standard now as the chairman mentioned
2:06:00last week we heard from Mrs Davis who
2:06:05had Global safety for Facebook and it
2:06:09was surprising to us that what she tried
2:06:13to do was to minimize the information
2:06:16that was in these documents to minimize
2:06:19the research and to minimize the
2:06:23knowledge that Facebook had at one point
2:06:27I even reminded her the research was not
2:06:30third party research the research was
2:06:34there Facebook's internal research
2:06:39so they knew
2:06:42what they were doing they knew where the
2:06:45violations were and they know they are
2:06:51guilty
2:06:52they know this their research tells them
2:06:55this
2:06:57last week in advance of our hearing
2:07:00Facebook released two studies and said
2:07:04that the Wall Street Journal was all
2:07:06wrong they had just gotten it wrong
2:07:09as if the Wall Street Journal did not
2:07:12know how to read these documents and how
2:07:16to work through this research
2:07:19having seen the data that you've
2:07:23presented and the other studies that
2:07:25Facebook did not publicly share I feel
2:07:30pretty confident that it's Facebook who
2:07:33has done the misrepresenting to this
2:07:36committee here are some of the numbers
2:07:38that Facebook chose not to share and Mr
2:07:42chairman I think it's important that we
2:07:44look at these as we talk about the
2:07:47setting for this hearing what we learned
2:07:50last week what you and I've been
2:07:52learning over the past three years about
2:07:54big Tech and Facebook and here you go 66
2:07:58percent of teen girls on Instagram and
2:08:0040 percent of teen boys
2:08:02experience negative social comparisons
2:08:07this is Facebook's research 52 percent
2:08:11of teen girls who experience negative
2:08:15social comparison on Instagram said it
2:08:18was caused by images related to Beauty
2:08:21social comparison is worse on Instagram
2:08:24because it is perceived as real life but
2:08:28based on Celebrity standards social
2:08:32comparison mimics the grief cycle and
2:08:35includes a downward emotional spiral
2:08:37encompassing a range of emotions from
2:08:40jealousy to self-proclaimed body
2:08:43dysmorphia Facebook addiction which
2:08:47Facebook calls conveniently
2:08:50problematic use
2:08:52is most severe in teams peaking at age
2:08:5614.
2:08:58here's what else we know
2:09:00Facebook is not interested in making
2:09:03significant changes to improve kids
2:09:06safety on their platforms at least not
2:09:09when that would result in losing
2:09:11eyeballs on post or decreasing their ad
2:09:15revenues in fact
2:09:18Facebook is Running Scared as they know
2:09:21that in their own words young adults are
2:09:24less active and less engaged on Facebook
2:09:27and that they are running out of teams
2:09:30to add to Instagram so teens are looking
2:09:33at other platforms like Tick Tock and
2:09:35Facebook is only making those changes
2:09:38that add to its users numbers and
2:09:42ultimately its profits follow the money
2:09:47so what are these changes allowing users
2:09:50to create multiple accounts that
2:09:52Facebook does not delete and encouraging
2:09:56teams to create second accounts they can
2:09:59hide from their parents they are also
2:10:01studying younger and younger children as
2:10:04young as eight
2:10:05so that they can Market to them and
2:10:08while Miss Davis says that kids below 13
2:10:11are not allowed on Facebook or Instagram
2:10:14we know that they are because she told
2:10:17us that they recently had deleted 600
2:10:22000 accounts from children under age 13.
2:10:26so how do you get that many underage
2:10:29accounts if you aren't turning a blind
2:10:33eye to them in the first place
2:10:36and then in order to try to clean it up
2:10:38you go to delete it and then you say oh
2:10:41by the way we just in the last month
2:10:43deleted 600
2:10:47000 under age accounts and speaking of
2:10:51turning a blind eye Facebook turns a
2:10:53blind eye to user privacy
2:10:56news broke yesterday that the private
2:10:59data of over 1.5 billion that's right
2:11:031.5 billion Facebook users is being sold
2:11:08on a hacking forum that's its biggest
2:11:12data breach to date examples like this
2:11:16underscore my strong concerns about
2:11:17Facebook collecting the data of kids and
2:11:21teens and what they are doing with it
2:11:23Facebook also turns a blind eye toward
2:11:26blatant human exploitation taking place
2:11:30on its platform trafficking forced labor
2:11:32cartels the worst possible things one
2:11:36can imagine big tech companies have
2:11:39gotten away with abusing consumers for
2:11:42too long it is clear that Facebook
2:11:45prioritizes profit over the well-being
2:11:48of children and all users so as a mother
2:11:53and a grandmother this is an issue that
2:11:57is of particular concern to me so we
2:12:01thank you for being here today Miss
2:12:03Haugen and we look forward to getting to
2:12:06the truth about what Facebook is doing
2:12:09with users data and how they are abusing
2:12:13their privacy and how they show a lack
2:12:17of respect for the individuals that are
2:12:20on their Network we look forward to the
2:12:22testimony thank you Mr chairman thanks
2:12:24Senator black
2:12:26thank you Senator Blackburn I don't know
2:12:29whether the ranking member would like to
2:12:31make if you don't mind thank you um
2:12:34chairman Blumenthal and and I will just
2:12:37take a moment or two uh and and I do
2:12:40appreciate being able to to speak as
2:12:44ranking member of the full committee
2:12:45this this Miss Hogan this is a this is a
2:12:47subcommittee hearing you see some vacant
2:12:50seats there's pretty good attendance for
2:12:52our subcommittee there are also a lot of
2:12:54things going on so people will be coming
2:12:56get going but I'm I'm willing to predict
2:12:58that this will have almost 100 percent
2:13:02attendance by members of the
2:13:04subcommittee because of the importance
2:13:05of this subject matter so thanks for
2:13:07coming forward to share concerns about
2:13:10Facebook's business practices
2:13:13particularly with respect to children
2:13:15and teens and of course that is the the
2:13:19main topic of our it's the title of our
2:13:21hearing today protecting kids for your
2:13:24patients uh we're going to reconvene and
2:13:28we'll go to senator hickamover
2:13:32thank you Mr chair thank you Miss Haugen
2:13:34for uh for your direct answers and for
2:13:39being willing to come out and
2:13:41you know provide such Clarity on so many
2:13:44of these issues
2:13:45um
2:13:47obviously Facebook can manipulate its
2:13:49algorithms to attract users
2:13:52um
2:13:53and I guess
2:13:54my question would be do you feel in your
2:13:57humble opinion that you know simply
2:14:00maximizing profits no matter the
2:14:03societal impact that that is Justified
2:14:06and I think the question then would be
2:14:09that that's the the short question which
2:14:11I think I know the answer
2:14:13what impacted Facebook's bottom line
2:14:15would it have if the algorithm was
2:14:17changed to promote safety and to
2:14:22instead of to change to to
2:14:26save the lives of young women rather
2:14:28than putting them at risk
2:14:34and learn about the talk button
2:14:36um Facebook today uh
2:14:39has a profit is makes approximately 40
2:14:43billion dollars a year in profit a lot
2:14:45of the changes that I'm talking about
2:14:46are are not going to make uh Facebook an
2:14:50unprofitable company it just won't be a
2:14:52ludicrously profitable company like it
2:14:54is today
2:14:55engagement-based ranking which causes
2:14:57those amplification problems that leads
2:14:59young women from you know innocuous
2:15:01topics like healthy recipes to anorexia
2:15:04content if it were removed people would
2:15:08consume less content on Facebook but
2:15:10Facebook would still be profitable and
2:15:12so I I
2:15:14encourage oversight and public scrutiny
2:15:17into how these algorithms work and the
2:15:19consequences of them all right well and
2:15:22I appreciate that I uh I'm a former
2:15:25small business owner I own a yeah uh
2:15:28started a brew pub back in 1988 uh and
2:15:32really was always we worked very hard to
2:15:35to look
2:15:37again we weren't doing investigations
2:15:39but we were very sensitive to whether
2:15:40someone had had too much to drink
2:15:42whether we had a frequent customer who
2:15:44was frequently putting himself at risk
2:15:47and and others
2:15:49um obviously I think that the Facebook
2:15:51business model puts uh
2:15:53well it posted risk to to Youth and to
2:15:56and to teens uh you care to compared it
2:15:58to cigarette companies which I thought
2:16:00was
2:16:01rightfully so
2:16:03um if this I guess the question is is
2:16:06this level of risk appropriate uh or is
2:16:10there a level of risk that would be
2:16:12appropriate
2:16:13I think there is an opportunity to
2:16:15reframe some of these oversight actions
2:16:17so when we think of them as these
2:16:19trade-offs of like it's either
2:16:20profitability or safety I think that's a
2:16:23false Choice and then reality the thing
2:16:25I'm asking for is a move from
2:16:27short-termism which is what Facebook is
2:16:29run under today right is being led by
2:16:32metrics and not led by people and that
2:16:34with appropriate oversight and some of
2:16:36these constraints it's possible that
2:16:39Facebook could actually have much more
2:16:40profitable company five or ten years
2:16:41down the road because it wasn't as toxic
2:16:44not as many people quit it but that's
2:16:46one of those counterfactuals that we
2:16:48can't actually test so regulation might
2:16:50actually make Facebook more profitable
2:16:52over the long term right that's often
2:16:54the case I think the same could be said
2:16:56for automobiles and go down the list
2:16:58exactly all those things that there's so
2:17:00much pushback in the beginning I also
2:17:03thought that the
2:17:04the question of of how do we assess the
2:17:09impact to their bottom line uh we had a
2:17:11representative Facebook in here recently
2:17:13who talked about that 8 out of 10
2:17:16Facebook users feel their life is better
2:17:19and that their job is to get to 10 out
2:17:21of 10. maybe this is the two the 20
2:17:24percent that they're missing I don't
2:17:25know how large that the demographic is
2:17:27of of people that are caught back up
2:17:30into this circuous circuitous uh you
2:17:34know sense of of really taking them down
2:17:37into a the wrong direction how many
2:17:40people that is do you have any idea
2:17:42um that quote last week was really
2:17:44shocking to me because I don't know if
2:17:47you're aware of this but in the case of
2:17:48cigarettes uh only about 10 percent of
2:17:51people who smoke ever get lung cancer
2:17:53right um so the idea that you know 20 of
2:17:56your users could be facing uh serious
2:17:58mental health issues and that's not a
2:17:59problem is shocking I also want to
2:18:01emphasize for people that that Eating
2:18:03Disorders are serious right they're
2:18:05going to be women walking around this
2:18:06planet in 60 years with brittle bones
2:18:08because of choices that that Facebook
2:18:10made around emphasizing profit today or
2:18:13they're going to be women when when
2:18:14they're in 20 years who want to have
2:18:16babies who can't because they're
2:18:17infertile as a result of Eating
2:18:19Disorders today they're serious and I
2:18:21think there's an opportunity here for
2:18:23having public oversight and public
2:18:25involvement especially in matters that
2:18:27impact children
2:18:28right well thank you for being so Direct
2:18:31on this and for stepping forward I yield
2:18:33back the floor chair thanks Senator
2:18:36mover Senator Cruz
2:18:39thank you Mr chairman Ms Haugen welcome
2:18:41thank you for your testimony
2:18:43uh when it concerns Facebook there are a
2:18:46number of concerns that this committee
2:18:48and and Congress has been focused on two
2:18:50of the biggest have been Facebook's
2:18:52intentional targeting of kids uh with
2:18:55content that is harmful to the children
2:18:57and then secondly in a discrete issue is
2:19:01the pattern of Facebook and social media
2:19:03engaging in political censorship
2:19:05I want to start with the first issue
2:19:08targeting kids
2:19:10um
2:19:11as you're aware and as indeed the
2:19:13documents that you provided indicated
2:19:16um
2:19:17Facebook's
2:19:19according to the public reporting on it
2:19:21Facebook's internal reports found that
2:19:25Instagram makes quote body image issues
2:19:28worse
2:19:29for one in Three teen girls and
2:19:31additionally it showed that quote 13
2:19:33percent of British users and six percent
2:19:36of American users Trace their desire to
2:19:39kill themselves to Instagram
2:19:42uh is that a fair and accurate
2:19:44characterization of what Facebook's
2:19:47research concluded
2:19:49um I only know what I read in the
2:19:51documents that were included in my
2:19:52disclosure
2:19:53um that is that is an accurate
2:19:55description of the ones that I have read
2:19:56I because Facebook has not come forward
2:19:59with the total Corpus of their known
2:20:01research I don't know what their other
2:20:03things say but yes there is documents
2:20:05that say those things so we had
2:20:07testimony last week in the Senate with a
2:20:09witness from Facebook who claimed that
2:20:11that uh that information was not
2:20:13accurate and needed to be in context now
2:20:15of course she wasn't willing to provide
2:20:16the context the alleged mysterious
2:20:18context do you know of any context that
2:20:21would make those data anything other
2:20:24than horrifying and deeply disturbing
2:20:28um engagement based ranking and these
2:20:30processes of amplification uh they they
2:20:33impact all users of Facebook the
2:20:35algorithms are very smart in the sense
2:20:37that they latch on to things that people
2:20:39want to continue to engage with and
2:20:41unfortunately in the case of teen girls
2:20:43and things like self-harm they develop
2:20:45these feedback Cycles where children are
2:20:48using Instagram as to self-soothe but
2:20:51then are exposed to more and more
2:20:52content that makes them hate themselves
2:20:53this is a thing where we can't say 80 of
2:20:56kids are okay we need to say how do we
2:20:58save all the kids
2:21:00The Wall Street Journal reported that
2:21:02Mark Zuckerberg was personally aware of
2:21:04this research do you have any
2:21:06information one way or the other as to
2:21:08Mr Zuckerberg's awareness of the
2:21:10research we
2:21:11we uh excuse me one of the documents
2:21:14included in the disclosures it details
2:21:17something called project Daisy which is
2:21:18an initiative to remove likes off of
2:21:21Instagram the internal research showed
2:21:23that removing likes off Instagram is not
2:21:25effective as long as you leave comments
2:21:27on those posts and yet the research
2:21:30directly presented to Mark Zuckerberg
2:21:31said we should still pursue this as a
2:21:34feature to launch even though it's not
2:21:36effective because the government
2:21:38journalists and academics want us to do
2:21:40this like it would get us positive
2:21:43points of the public
2:21:44that con that kind of duplicity is why
2:21:47we need to have more transparency and
2:21:50why if we want to have a system that is
2:21:52uh coherent with democracy we must have
2:21:54public oversight from Congress
2:21:57do you know if Facebook any of the
2:21:59research it conducted attempted to
2:22:01quantify how many teenage girls may have
2:22:03taken their lives because of Facebook's
2:22:05products I am not aware of that research
2:22:09do you know if Facebook made any changes
2:22:11when they got back that 13 percent of
2:22:13British users and six percent of
2:22:15American users traced their desire to
2:22:17kill themselves to Instagram do you know
2:22:19if they made any changes in response to
2:22:21that research to try to correct or
2:22:25mitigate that I found it very surprising
2:22:27that when Antonio Davis was confronted
2:22:28with this research last week she
2:22:30couldn't enumerate a five-point plan a
2:22:3310-point plan of the actions that they
2:22:34took I also find it shocking that one
2:22:37once Facebook had this research it
2:22:38didn't disclose it to the public because
2:22:40this is the kind of thing that should
2:22:42have oversight from Congress so when you
2:22:44were at Facebook were there discussions
2:22:46about how to respond to this this
2:22:47research um I did not work directly on
2:22:50issues concerning children these are
2:22:52just documents that were freely
2:22:53available in the company so I am not
2:22:54aware of that okay
2:22:56do you have thoughts as to what kind of
2:22:59changes Facebook could make uh to reduce
2:23:02or eliminate these Harms
2:23:04you mentioned earlier concerns around
2:23:06Free Speech a lot of the things that I
2:23:09advocate for are around changing the
2:23:11mechanisms of amplification not around
2:23:13picking winners and losers in the
2:23:15marketplace of ideas the problem explain
2:23:17what that means oh sure
2:23:19um so like I mentioned before you know
2:23:21like how on Twitter if you have to click
2:23:23through on a link before you re-share it
2:23:25small actions like that friction don't
2:23:28require picking good ideas and bad ideas
2:23:30they just make the platform less Twitchy
2:23:33less reactive and Facebook's internal
2:23:35research says that each one of those
2:23:37small actions dramatically reduces
2:23:39misinformation hate speech and violence
2:23:42inciting content on the platform so and
2:23:44we're running out of time but but on the
2:23:46second major topic of concern of
2:23:48Facebook which is censorship based on
2:23:50what you've seen are you are you
2:23:52concerned about political censorship at
2:23:54Facebook and in big Tech I believe you
2:23:57cannot have a system that has as big an
2:24:01impact on society as Facebook does today
2:24:03with as little transparency as it does
2:24:06I am a strong proponent of chronological
2:24:09ranking or ordering by time with a
2:24:11little bit of spammed emotion because I
2:24:13think
2:24:14um we don't want computers deciding what
2:24:17we focus on we should have software that
2:24:20is human scaled where humans have
2:24:22conversations together not computers
2:24:23facilitating who we get to hear from so
2:24:25how could we get more transparency what
2:24:27would produce that
2:24:29um I strongly encourage the development
2:24:31of some kind of regulatory body that
2:24:34could work with academics work with
2:24:36researchers work with other government
2:24:37agencies to synthesize requests for data
2:24:41that are privacy conscious this is an
2:24:43area that I'm really passionate about
2:24:46um and because right now no one can
2:24:48force Facebook to disclose data and
2:24:50Facebook has been stonewalling us or
2:24:52even worse they gave inaccurate data to
2:24:54researchers as the Scandal recently
2:24:56showed what data should they turn over
2:24:58my turns expired so um
2:25:00uh for example
2:25:02um even data is simple as what Integrity
2:25:05systems exist today and how well do they
2:25:08perform
2:25:08like there are lots and lots of people
2:25:10who Facebook is conveying around the
2:25:13world that that Facebook Safety Systems
2:25:15apply to their language and those people
2:25:17aren't aware that they're using a raw
2:25:19original dangerous version of Facebook
2:25:22just basic actions like transparency
2:25:24would make a huge difference okay thank
2:25:26you
2:25:28thanks Senator Cruz Senator Loomis
2:25:32thank you Mr chairman and thank you for
2:25:35your testimony
2:25:36um
2:25:37if you were in my seat today instead of
2:25:39your seat what documents or unanswered
2:25:43questions would you seek from Facebook
2:25:46especially as it relates to children but
2:25:49even generally speaking
2:25:52I think any research regarding what
2:25:54Facebook does problematic use I.E the
2:25:57addictiveness of the product is of vital
2:25:59importance and anything around what
2:26:01Facebook knows about parents lack of
2:26:04knowledge about the platform
2:26:06I only know about the documents that I
2:26:09have seen right I did not work on teens
2:26:12or child safety myself but in the
2:26:15documents that I read Facebook
2:26:17articulates the idea that parents today
2:26:19are not aware of how dangerous Instagram
2:26:21is and they because they themselves did
2:26:23not live through these experiences they
2:26:25can't coach their kids on basic safety
2:26:27things
2:26:28and so at a minimum Facebook shop to
2:26:31disclose what it knows in that context
2:26:32okay so we're trying to protect
2:26:36individuals data that they're Gathering
2:26:39have data privacy but have transparency
2:26:44in the manner in which
2:26:47the data is used
2:26:50can we bridge that Gap
2:26:53imagine
2:26:54um I I think we reasonable people can
2:26:56have a conversation on how many people
2:26:58need to see a piece of content before
2:27:00it's not really private like if a
2:27:02hundred thousand people see something is
2:27:04it private if 25 000 people see it is it
2:27:07private just disclosing the most popular
2:27:10content on the platform including
2:27:12statistics around what factors went into
2:27:15the promotion of that content would
2:27:17cause radically more transparency than
2:27:19we have today on how Facebook chooses
2:27:21what we get to focus on how they shape
2:27:23our reality okay if if our focus is
2:27:27protecting the First Amendment and our
2:27:29rise to free speech while
2:27:31very carefully regulating
2:27:35um data privacy
2:27:38um
2:27:39I've heard there there are a number of
2:27:42things that are being discussed in
2:27:43Congress everything from
2:27:46antitrust laws to calling Facebook a
2:27:51utility
2:27:52to the idea that you just raised of a
2:27:57regulatory board of some sort that has
2:28:01authority to
2:28:04um
2:28:05through understanding of the algorithms
2:28:08and how they're used and other
2:28:10mechanisms that create what we see the
2:28:15the face of Facebook so to speak
2:28:18um
2:28:19how tell me a little more about how you
2:28:22envisioned that board working what is
2:28:25the in your mind based on your
2:28:28understanding of the company and the ill
2:28:32consequences
2:28:35what is the best approach to Bridging
2:28:38the Gap between keeping speech free
2:28:41and protecting individual privacy with
2:28:44regard to data
2:28:46so I think those issues are they're
2:28:49independent issues so we can talk about
2:28:51Free Speech first which is
2:28:53um having more transparency like
2:28:55Facebook has Solutions today that are
2:28:57not content based and I am a strong
2:29:00advocate for non-content-based Solutions
2:29:02because those Solutions will also then
2:29:05protect the most vulnerable people in
2:29:07the world in a place like Ethiopia where
2:29:09they speak six languages if you have
2:29:11something that focuses on good ideas and
2:29:13bad ideas those systems don't work in
2:29:15diverse places so investing in
2:29:18non-content-based ways to slow the
2:29:21platform down not only protects our
2:29:23freedom of speech it protects people's
2:29:25lives the second question is around
2:29:26privacy and this question of how can we
2:29:28have oversight and have privacy there is
2:29:31lots and lots of research on how to
2:29:33abstract data sets so you're not showing
2:29:35people's names you might not even be
2:29:37showing the content of their post you
2:29:39might be showing data that is about the
2:29:41content of their post but not the post
2:29:42itself there are many ways to structure
2:29:45these data sets that are privacy address
2:29:47and be the fact that Facebook has walled
2:29:50off the ability to see even basic things
2:29:52about how the platform performs or in
2:29:54the case of their past academic research
2:29:56releasing inaccurate data
2:29:58or not being clear about how they pulled
2:30:00that data is just part of a pattern of
2:30:02behavior of Facebook hiding behind walls
2:30:04and operating in the shadows and they
2:30:06have far too much power in our society
2:30:08to be allowed to continue to operate
2:30:09that way
2:30:11well I I had heard you make the analogy
2:30:13earlier to the tobacco industry and I
2:30:16think that that's an appropriate analogy
2:30:19I
2:30:22I I really believe we're searching for
2:30:25the best way to address the problem
2:30:29um and I'm I I'm not sure that it is the
2:30:34heavy hands like breaking up companies
2:30:37or
2:30:38um uh calling them a utility uh
2:30:42which is why your approach of
2:30:46integrating people who understand
2:30:48the math and the uses of the math uh
2:30:52with uh protecting privacy uh it is
2:30:56intriguing to me so the more information
2:30:59that you can provide to us
2:31:02about how that might work to actually
2:31:05address the problem I I think would be
2:31:08helpful so
2:31:10um in my case this is an invitation to
2:31:12you
2:31:13to provide to my office or the committee
2:31:17information about how we can get at the
2:31:21root of the problem that you've
2:31:23identified and can document
2:31:26um and
2:31:31save people's privacy
2:31:34so I extend that invitation to you and I
2:31:36thank you for your testimony uh Mr
2:31:38chairman I yield back thanks Senator
2:31:40Lomas uh Senator Sullivan
2:31:49thank you Mr chairman and um
2:31:51I want to thank our witness here uh it's
2:31:54been a good hearing a lot of information
2:31:55has been learned
2:31:57um
2:31:58particularly on the issue of how this is
2:32:00impacting our kids I think
2:32:03we're going to look back
2:32:0520 years from now
2:32:07and
2:32:08all of us are going to be like what in
2:32:10the hell were we thinking when we
2:32:12recognize the damage that it's done to a
2:32:15generation
2:32:17kids do you agree with that miss you
2:32:19again
2:32:20uh when Facebook made statement has made
2:32:22statements in the past about how much
2:32:24benefit Instagram is providing to kids
2:32:27mental health like kids are connecting
2:32:28who are once alone uh
2:32:31what I'm so surprised about that is if
2:32:33if Instagram is such a positive force
2:32:35have we have we seen a golden age of
2:32:37teenage mental health in the last 10
2:32:39years no we've seen absolutely the
2:32:41opposite right we've seen escalating
2:32:42rates of suicide and depression amongst
2:32:44teenagers do you think those rates
2:32:47are at least in part driven by the
2:32:49social media phenomena there is a broad
2:32:51swath of research that supports the idea
2:32:53that usage of social media
2:32:56amplifies the risk for these mental
2:32:58health harms right now in this hearing
2:33:00is helping illuminate it we are seeing
2:33:02and Facebook's own research shows up
2:33:03right yeah say that again and Facebook's
2:33:07own research shows that
2:33:08right the kids are saying kids are
2:33:10saying I am unhappy when I use Instagram
2:33:12and I can't stop that if I leave I'm
2:33:14afraid I'll be ostracized right and
2:33:16that's that's so sad
2:33:18so they know that that's what their
2:33:20research shows
2:33:22so what do you think drives them to I
2:33:24had this discussion with the witness
2:33:26last week and I said well
2:33:30you know I think they called it their
2:33:31time out or stop I said but isn't that
2:33:34incompatible with your business model
2:33:36because your business model is more time
2:33:39online more eyeballs online isn't that
2:33:41the fundamental elements of their
2:33:44business model
2:33:46Facebook has had both an interesting
2:33:48opportunity and a hard Challenge from
2:33:50being a closed system
2:33:51so they have had the opportunity to hide
2:33:53their problems and like often people do
2:33:56when they can hide their problems they
2:33:58get in over their heads and I think
2:34:00Facebook needs an opportunity to have
2:34:02Congress step in and say guess what you
2:34:04don't have to struggle by yourself
2:34:05anymore you don't have to hide these
2:34:07things from us you don't have to pretend
2:34:08they're not problems you can declare
2:34:10moral bankruptcy and we can figure out
2:34:12how to fix these things together because
2:34:14we solve problems together we don't
2:34:15solve them alone and by moral bankruptcy
2:34:17one of the things that I appreciate the
2:34:19phrase that the chairman and you've been
2:34:20using is one of those Elements which is
2:34:23they know this is a problem they know
2:34:25it's actually impacting negatively the
2:34:28mental health of the most precious
2:34:30assets we have in America our youth our
2:34:33kids I have three daughters
2:34:35um
2:34:37they know that that is happening in yet
2:34:40the moral bankruptcy from your
2:34:43perspective is the continued the
2:34:45continuation of this simply because
2:34:47that's how they make money I I phrase it
2:34:50slightly differently we have a financial
2:34:52bankruptcy because we value people's
2:34:54lives more than we value money right the
2:34:56people get in over their heads and they
2:34:57need a process where they admit they did
2:34:59something wrong but we have a mechanism
2:35:01where we forgive them and we we have a
2:35:03way for them to move forward Facebook is
2:35:05stuck in a feedback loop that they
2:35:06cannot get out of they have been hiding
2:35:08this information because they feel
2:35:09trapped right like they would have come
2:35:12forward if they had solutions to these
2:35:13things they need to admit they did
2:35:15something wrong and they need help to
2:35:17solve these problems and that's what
2:35:18moral bankruptcy is let me ask I'm going
2:35:20to switch gears here and and this is uh
2:35:24you what's your current position right
2:35:26now in terms of its disinformation and
2:35:28counter Espionage um I my last role at
2:35:31Facebook was encounter rest I'm sorry
2:35:32your last role okay so one of the things
2:35:35this is a very different topic in
2:35:37um I only got a minute or so left but
2:35:40right now is Facebook I know Facebook is
2:35:43not allowed in countries like China but
2:35:46do they provide platforms
2:35:49for authoritarian or terrorist space
2:35:53leaders like the ayatollahs in Iran
2:35:57that's the largest state-sponsored
2:35:58terrorism in the world
2:36:00um or the Taliban or Xi Jinping are
2:36:04certain my view our biggest rival for
2:36:06this Century a Communist Party dictator
2:36:10who's trying to export his authoritarian
2:36:13model around the world
2:36:15do they provide a platform for those
2:36:19kind of
2:36:21leaders who in my view clearly don't
2:36:24hold America's interests in mind
2:36:28does Facebook provide that I during my
2:36:31time working with the threat
2:36:32intelligence org so I was a product
2:36:34manager supporting the threat the
2:36:36counter Espionage team
2:36:38um
2:36:39my team directly worked on uh tracking
2:36:42Chinese participation on the platform
2:36:44surveilling say uyghur populations in
2:36:47places around the world that you could
2:36:49actually find the Chinese based on them
2:36:51doing these kinds of things so Facebook
2:36:53well I'm sorry um we also saw active
2:36:57participation of say the Iran government
2:36:59doing Espionage on other state actors so
2:37:03this is definitely a thing that is
2:37:04happening and I believe Facebook's
2:37:06consistent understanding of the
2:37:09counter-espionage information operations
2:37:10encounter terrorism teams is a national
2:37:13security issue and I'm speaking to other
2:37:15parts of Congress about that so you're
2:37:17saying in essence that the the platform
2:37:20whether Facebook knows it or not is
2:37:22being utilized by some of our
2:37:23adversaries in a way that helps push and
2:37:26promote their interests at the expense
2:37:28of Americas yes Facebook's still very
2:37:30aware that this is happening on the
2:37:31platform and I believe the fact that
2:37:33Congress doesn't get a report of exactly
2:37:35how many people are working on these
2:37:37things internally is is unacceptable
2:37:39because you have a right to keep the
2:37:41American people safe
2:37:42great thank you very much
2:37:45thanks Senator Sullivan you may have
2:37:47just opened an area for another year
2:37:50sorry yeah
2:37:51yeah I've I've strong National Security
2:37:53concerns about how Facebook operates
2:37:55today well Mr chairman maybe we should
2:37:57right I mean it's a I'm not being at all
2:38:00facetious uh thank you for your
2:38:02questions on this topic and I know you
2:38:04have a busy schedule but we may want to
2:38:07discuss this issue with you members of
2:38:10our committee at least informally and if
2:38:13you'd be willing to come back for
2:38:14another hearing that certainly is within
2:38:17the realm of possibility I haven't
2:38:18consulted the ranking member but or the
2:38:21chair
2:38:22woman but um
2:38:24thank you for your honesty and your
2:38:26candor on that topic Senator Scott
2:38:30thank you chairman
2:38:32um first off thanks for coming forward
2:38:33and thanks for coming forward in a
2:38:35manner that you want to have a have
2:38:36positive change so that's not always
2:38:38what what happens earlier this year I
2:38:41sent a letter to Facebook and other
2:38:43social media platforms asking them to
2:38:45detail the harmful impacts could affects
2:38:47our mental health their platforms have
2:38:48on uh children and teens
2:38:51so your reports reveal that Facebook has
2:38:53been fully aware of this for a while
2:38:57and the harmful impacts especially on
2:38:59young women so I think we all agree
2:39:01that's completely unacceptable and we've
2:39:03got to figure out how we protect
2:39:05the people that are vulnerable in this
2:39:06country from the harmful impacts of
2:39:08Facebook and other social media
2:39:09platforms
2:39:10so first off do you think there should
2:39:12be um uh greater consideration for age
2:39:14when it comes to using any social media
2:39:17I strongly encourage raising age limits
2:39:19to 16 or 18 years old based on looking
2:39:22at the data around problematic use or
2:39:25Addiction on the platform and children's
2:39:27self regulation issues
2:39:30so so I think you address this a little
2:39:33bit but why do you think Facebook didn't
2:39:35address this publicly when they they
2:39:37figured it out internally that they were
2:39:38having an adverse impact on young young
2:39:41people especially young women why didn't
2:39:42they come forward and say
2:39:44I've got we've got a problem we've got
2:39:45to figure this out
2:39:47I I have a huge amount of empathy for
2:39:49for Facebook these are really really
2:39:51hard questions
2:39:52um and part of why I'm saying I think I
2:39:54think they feel a little a little
2:39:55trapped and isolated is the problems
2:39:57that are driving uh negative social
2:40:00comparison on Instagram Facebook's own
2:40:02research says Instagram is actually
2:40:05distinctly worse than say tick tock or
2:40:08SnapChat or Reddit because Instagram
2:40:11Tick Tock is about doing fun things with
2:40:13your friends
2:40:14Snapchat is About Faces and augmented
2:40:16reality Reddit is vaguely about ideas
2:40:19but Instagram is about bodies and about
2:40:22comparing lifestyles
2:40:24and so I think there are real questions
2:40:26where like Instagram would have to come
2:40:27in and think hard about their product or
2:40:30about like what is their product about
2:40:31and I think I don't think those answers
2:40:33are immediately obvious that's why I
2:40:35believe we need to solve problems
2:40:36together and not alone because
2:40:38collaborating with the public will give
2:40:39us better Solutions
2:40:41so do you think Facebook was trying to
2:40:43trying to mitigate the problem
2:40:46I think within the set of incentives
2:40:48that they were working within they did
2:40:49the best they could unfortunately those
2:40:51incentives are not sustainable and they
2:40:53are not acceptable uh in in our society
2:40:57you think Facebook and other social
2:40:58media platforms ought to be able to be
2:41:00required to report any harmful effects
2:41:02they have on young people
2:41:03uh one of the things that I found uh
2:41:06very interesting after the report in the
2:41:08Wall Street Journal on Teen Mental
2:41:10Health was that a a former executive at
2:41:13the company's said Facebook needs to be
2:41:14able to have private research and the
2:41:16part that I was offended by this was
2:41:18Facebook has had some of this research
2:41:19on the negative effects of Instagram on
2:41:21teenagers four years
2:41:23I strongly support the idea that
2:41:24Facebook should have a year maybe 18
2:41:26months to have private research but
2:41:28given that they are the only people in
2:41:30the world who can do this kind of
2:41:31research
2:41:32that the public never gets to do it they
2:41:34shouldn't be allowed to keep secrets
2:41:36When people's lives are on the line
2:41:39so because because to be clear if they
2:41:42make 40 billion dollars a year they have
2:41:43the resources to solve these problems
2:41:45they're choosing not to solve them yeah
2:41:47didn't that surprise you they wouldn't
2:41:48put more effort into this no because you
2:41:49know it's going to catch up with them
2:41:50eventually right yeah like I mentioned
2:41:53earlier to to senator heckenlooper right
2:41:56coming in and having oversight might
2:41:58actually make Facebook a more profitable
2:42:00company five or ten years from now
2:42:01because toxicity Facebook's own research
2:42:04shows uh they have something called an
2:42:07Integrity holdout these are people who
2:42:09don't get protections from Integrity
2:42:10systems to see what happens to them
2:42:13and those people who deal with a more
2:42:15toxic painful version of Facebook use
2:42:17Facebook less and so one could could
2:42:20reason a Kinder friendlier more
2:42:23collaborative Facebook might actually
2:42:25have more users five years from now so
2:42:27it's in everyone's interest do you think
2:42:29I've got a bill and there's a lot of
2:42:30bills that I think we've all talked
2:42:32about but mine's called the data act
2:42:33it's going to require expressed consent
2:42:35from users for large platforms to use
2:42:37algorithms on somebody you agree with
2:42:39that
2:42:40I mean I mean what shouldn't we consent
2:42:42before they get to take our uh
2:42:44everything about us and go sell it
2:42:47I think Hallie send things to us for for
2:42:50um selling personal data that uh that is
2:42:52an issue I believe people have Chef
2:42:54substantially more control over
2:42:56um uh most people are not well informed
2:42:58on what the cost the cost personal costs
2:43:00of having their data sold are and so I
2:43:03worry about
2:43:04um pushing that choice back on
2:43:06individual consumers
2:43:07um in terms of should people consent to
2:43:09working with algorithms
2:43:11um I worry that if Facebook is allowed
2:43:14to uh give users the choice of do you
2:43:17want an engagement based news feed or do
2:43:20you want a chronological news feed like
2:43:22ordered by time maybe a little spam
2:43:23demotion that people will choose the
2:43:26more addictive option that engagement
2:43:27based ranking even if it is leading
2:43:30their their daughters to eating
2:43:31disorders
2:43:33right thank you
2:43:35thanks Senator Scott I think we have
2:43:38concluded the first round unless we're
2:43:41missing someone who is
2:43:44um online
2:43:46and not hearing anyone uh let's go to
2:43:50the second round uh thank you again for
2:43:52your patience uh I know you have a hard
2:43:55stop I think at 1 30. so we'll be
2:43:58respectful of that limitation and I'll
2:44:01begin by asking a few questions first
2:44:03let me say uh Senator Klobuchar
2:44:07very
2:44:09aptly
2:44:10raise with you the principal obstacle to
2:44:14our achieving legislative reform in the
2:44:16past which is the tons of money spent on
2:44:21lobbyists and other
2:44:23kinds of
2:44:25influence peddling
2:44:28to use a pejorative word that is so
2:44:30evident here in the United States
2:44:32Congress some of it's dark money some of
2:44:35it is very overt
2:44:37but
2:44:39I guess the point I'd like to make to
2:44:41you personally is that your being here
2:44:45really sends a profound message to
2:44:49our nation that one person can really
2:44:51make a difference
2:44:52one person standing up speaking out
2:44:55can overcome a lot of those obstacles
2:44:58for us and you have crystallized
2:45:00in a way are
2:45:03Consciousness here you have been a
2:45:05catalyst I think for change in a way
2:45:08that we haven't seen and I've been
2:45:10working on these issues for
2:45:1310 15 years
2:45:16and you have raised awareness in a way
2:45:19that I think is very unique so thank you
2:45:22not only for your risk taking and your
2:45:25courage and strength in standing up but
2:45:27also for the effect that it has had uh
2:45:31and I also want to make another point
2:45:33and you can tell me whether I'm correct
2:45:34or not
2:45:36I think there are the whistleblowers out
2:45:38there
2:45:39I think there are other truth tellers
2:45:42in the tech world
2:45:43who want to come forward I think you're
2:45:46meeting by example
2:45:48I think you are showing them that
2:45:49there's a path
2:45:51to make this industry more responsible
2:45:55and
2:45:56more caring about kids
2:45:58and about the nature of our public
2:46:00discourse generally about the strength
2:46:02of our democracy and I think you
2:46:05have given them a boost those
2:46:09whistleblowers out there
2:46:11in potentially coming forward I think
2:46:14that's tremendously important I think
2:46:15also
2:46:16and again you can tell me if I'm wrong
2:46:19there are a lot of people in Facebook
2:46:20who are cheering for you
2:46:23because
2:46:26there are public reports and I know of
2:46:29some of my
2:46:31friends in this world who tell me that
2:46:35they're people working for Facebook who
2:46:37wish they had
2:46:39the opportunity and the courage to come
2:46:42forward as you have done because they
2:46:44feel
2:46:45a lot of reservations about the way that
2:46:48Facebook has used the platform used
2:46:51algorithms used content and pushed it on
2:46:55kids in this way
2:46:58so those are
2:47:01sort of hypotheses uh that I hope you
2:47:05can confirm
2:47:07and I also would like to ask you
2:47:11because a lot of parents are watching um
2:47:14right now
2:47:16so you've advised us on what you think
2:47:19we should do the reforms some of them
2:47:21that you think we should adopt stronger
2:47:23oversight
2:47:24authorized by Congress
2:47:27better disclosure because right now
2:47:30Facebook essentially is a black box yes
2:47:33for most of America Facebook is a black
2:47:36box
2:47:37that's designed by Mark Zuckerberg
2:47:40Incorporated
2:47:43Mark Zuckerberg and his immediate codery
2:47:46and the buck stops with him
2:47:51and reform of section 203 so there's
2:47:54some legal responsibility so people have
2:47:56a day in court some kind of recourse
2:48:00legally when they're harmed by Facebook
2:48:03because right now it has this broad
2:48:05immunity most of America has no idea
2:48:09essentially you can't sue Facebook you
2:48:13have no recourse
2:48:15most America doesn't know about section
2:48:18230
2:48:20and if you
2:48:23pushed a lot of members of Congress they
2:48:26wouldn't know either
2:48:27it's actually slightly worse than that
2:48:29they Facebook made a statement in a
2:48:31legal proceeding recently where they
2:48:33said they had the right to mislead the
2:48:35court because they had immunity
2:48:37right that 230 gave them immunity so why
2:48:40should they have to tell the truth about
2:48:40what they're showing which is kind of
2:48:43shocking well it is shocking to a lawyer
2:48:47yeah which some of us are
2:48:50uh it's also uttered
2:48:54disregard and contempt for the rule of
2:48:56law and for the very legal structure
2:48:59that gives them
2:49:01that kind of protection so it's kind of
2:49:05a new low
2:49:07and
2:49:09corporate conduct at least in court
2:49:13uh
2:49:14so you've you've provided us with some
2:49:16of the reforms that you think are
2:49:19important and I think that the oversight
2:49:22goes a long way because it in turn would
2:49:24make public a lot of what is going on in
2:49:29this black box
2:49:30but for now
2:49:34since a lot of teens and tweens will be
2:49:38going home tonight as you've said
2:49:42to endure the bullying
2:49:45the eating disorders
2:49:48the invitations to
2:49:50feel insecure about themselves
2:49:52heightened anxiety they have to live
2:49:54with the real world as it exists right
2:49:56now and they will be haunted for their
2:50:00lifetimes by these experiences
2:50:03what would you tell parents right now
2:50:06what would you advise them
2:50:08about what they can do because they need
2:50:10more tools and some of the proposals
2:50:13that have been mentioned here would give
2:50:15parents more tools to protect their
2:50:18children right now a lot of parents tell
2:50:19me
2:50:21they feel powerless
2:50:25they need more information they're way
2:50:28behind their kids and their adeptness
2:50:30online
2:50:34and they feel that they need to be
2:50:37empowered
2:50:38in some way to protect their kids in the
2:50:41real world right now in real time so I
2:50:45offer you that open-ended opportunity to
2:50:50talk to us a little bit about your
2:50:51thoughts
2:50:53very rarely do you have one of these
2:50:54generational shifts where uh the
2:50:58generation that leads like parents who
2:51:00who who guide their children
2:51:02have such a different set of experiences
2:51:05that they don't have the context to
2:51:07support their children in a safe way
2:51:11um there is an active need for schools
2:51:14or or maybe the National Institutes of
2:51:17Health to to make established
2:51:20information where if parents want to
2:51:22learn on how they can support their kids
2:51:23it should be easy for them to know what
2:51:25is constructive and not constructive
2:51:27because Facebook's own research says
2:51:30kids today feel like they are struggling
2:51:32alone with all these issues because
2:51:34their parents can't guide them and one
2:51:36of the things I'm saddest when I look on
2:51:38Twitter is when people blame the parents
2:51:40for these problems with Facebook they
2:51:41say just take your kid's phone away
2:51:43and the reality is those issues are a
2:51:45lot more complicated than that
2:51:47um and so uh we need to support parents
2:51:50because right now if Facebook won't
2:51:52protect the kids we at least need to
2:51:54help the parents to protect the kids if
2:51:56they parents are anguished they are
2:51:59about this issue parents are hardly
2:52:04uncaring they need the tools they need
2:52:08to be empowered
2:52:09and I think that the
2:52:13the major encouragement for reforms is
2:52:16going to come from those parents and
2:52:20you have pointed out I think in general
2:52:23but I'd like you to just confirm for me
2:52:26This research and the documents
2:52:30containing that research
2:52:33is not only findings and conclusions
2:52:35also recommendation for changes
2:52:39what I hear you saying is that again and
2:52:42again and again these recommendations
2:52:45were just rejected or disregarded
2:52:47correct
2:52:49there is a pattern of behavior that I
2:52:51saw at Facebook of Facebook choosing to
2:52:53prioritize its profits over people
2:52:55and any time that Facebook faced even
2:52:58tiny hits to growth like 0.1 percent of
2:53:01sessions one percent of of views that it
2:53:04shows its profits over safety and you
2:53:07mentioned I think bonuses tied to
2:53:10Downstream msis uh Decor MSI yeah could
2:53:14you explain what you meant um so MSI is
2:53:16Meaningful social interaction uh
2:53:19Facebook's internal governance is very
2:53:21much based around metrics so Facebook is
2:53:23incredibly flat to the point where they
2:53:25have the largest open floor plan office
2:53:27in the world it's a quarter of a mile
2:53:28long and one room right they believe in
2:53:30flat
2:53:31and instead of having internal
2:53:33governance they have metrics that people
2:53:35try to move
2:53:36in a world like that it doesn't matter
2:53:38that we now have multiple years of data
2:53:41saying MSI may be encouraging bad
2:53:43content might be making spaces where
2:53:46people are are scared where they are
2:53:49shown information that puts them at risk
2:53:52it's so hard to just Lodge a ruler like
2:53:55that that a yardstick
2:53:58that you end up in the situation where
2:54:01because no one is taking leadership like
2:54:03no one is intentionally designing these
2:54:05systems it's just many many people
2:54:06running in parallel all moving the
2:54:08metric that these problems get Amplified
2:54:10and Amplified and Amplified and no one
2:54:12steps in to bring the solutions
2:54:15and I just want to finish and then I
2:54:17think we've been joined by Senator young
2:54:20um and then we'll go to Senator
2:54:23Blackburn and Senator Klobuchar
2:54:26um
2:54:27you know I spent a number of years as an
2:54:30attorney general helping to lead
2:54:32litigation against big tobacco
2:54:35and
2:54:37I came to hear from a lot of
2:54:41smokers how grateful they were
2:54:44ironically and unexpectedly that someone
2:54:47was fighting big tobacco because they
2:54:49felt they had been victimized as
2:54:51children
2:54:52they started smoking when they were
2:54:54seven eight
2:54:55twelve years old because big tobacco was
2:54:57hooking them
2:54:59and as we developed the research very
2:55:01methodically and purposefully
2:55:04addicting them at that early age when
2:55:07they
2:55:09believed
2:55:11that they would make themselves more
2:55:15popular
2:55:16that they would be cool and hip if they
2:55:19began smoking and then nicotine
2:55:21hook them now physiologically nicotine
2:55:25has addictive properties
2:55:29what is it about Facebook's tactics
2:55:32of looking young people
2:55:35that makes it similar to what big
2:55:39tobacco has done
2:55:42Facebook's own research about Instagram
2:55:45contains quotes from kids saying
2:55:48I feel bad when I use Instagram but I
2:55:52also feel like I can't stop right I I
2:55:54know that the more time I spend on this
2:55:56the worse I feel but like I just can't
2:55:59like that they want the next click they
2:56:00want the next like they the the dopamine
2:56:03the little hits all the time
2:56:06and
2:56:08I I feel a lot of pain for those kids
2:56:10right like they they say they fear being
2:56:12ostracized if they step away from the
2:56:15platform so imagine you're in the
2:56:16situation you're in this relationship
2:56:18where every time you open the app it
2:56:19makes you feel worse but you also fear
2:56:22isolation if you don't
2:56:24um I think there's a huge opportunity
2:56:26here to make social media that makes
2:56:28kids feel good not feel bad
2:56:30and that we have an obligation to our
2:56:32youth to make sure that they're safe
2:56:33online
2:56:34thank you Senator Young
2:56:41Jen
2:56:42um thank you for your compelling
2:56:44testimony in that testimony you discuss
2:56:48how Facebook generates self-harm and and
2:56:51self-hate
2:56:53especially among vulnerable groups like
2:56:56teenage girls
2:56:58happened to be a father of four kids
2:57:00three daughters two of whom are
2:57:04teenagers and
2:57:06um as you as you just alluded to most
2:57:08adults myself included
2:57:11I've never been a teenager during the
2:57:13age of Facebook Instagram and these
2:57:16other social media platforms
2:57:18and therefore I think it can be really
2:57:21hard for many of us to fully appreciate
2:57:24the impact that certain posts may have
2:57:28but can you discuss on a team's Mental
2:57:31Health
2:57:33so can you discuss the short and
2:57:36long-term consequences of body image
2:57:39issues
2:57:40on these platforms please
2:57:46the patterns that children establish in
2:57:48their teenage years live with them for
2:57:50the rest of their lives the way they
2:57:51conceptualize who they are how they
2:57:53conceptualize how they interact with
2:57:54other people our patterns and habits
2:57:57that they will take with them as they
2:57:58become adults as they themselves raise
2:58:00children
2:58:01I'm very scared about the upcoming
2:58:03generation because
2:58:06when you and I interact in person and I
2:58:09say something mean to you and I see you
2:58:11wince or I see you cry
2:58:12that makes me less likely to do it the
2:58:14next time right that's a feedback Cycle
2:58:16online kids don't get those cues and
2:58:20they learn to be incredibly cruel to
2:58:21each other and they normalize it
2:58:24and I'm scared of what will their lives
2:58:26look like where they grow up with the
2:58:29idea that it's okay to be treated badly
2:58:31by people who who allegedly care about
2:58:33them that's a scary future
2:58:37very scary future
2:58:40and I see some evidence of of that as to
2:58:42so many parents
2:58:44um on a on a regular basis are are there
2:58:47other specific issues of significant
2:58:51consequence that the general public may
2:58:53not be fully aware of that are impacting
2:58:57um vulnerable groups so you you just
2:58:59like to elevate
2:59:00uh during this testimony
2:59:02one of the things that's hard uh for
2:59:05people who don't look at the data of
2:59:07social networks every day is of harms or
2:59:10just of usage that there are these
2:59:12things called Power laws it means that a
2:59:14small number of users are extremely
2:59:16intensely engaged on any given topic and
2:59:19most people are just lightly engaged
2:59:21when you look at things like
2:59:23misinformation Facebook knows that the
2:59:25people who are exposed to the most
2:59:26misinformation are people who are
2:59:28recently widowed divorced moved to a new
2:59:31city
2:59:32um are isolated in some other way
2:59:35when I worked on Civic misinformation we
2:59:38discussed the idea of the misinformation
2:59:39burden like the idea that when people
2:59:42are exposed to ideas that are not true
2:59:44over and over again it erodes their
2:59:46ability to to connect with the community
2:59:48at large because they no longer adhere
2:59:51to facts that are consensus reality
2:59:55um the fact that Facebook knows that
2:59:57it's most vulnerable users people who
2:59:59recently widowed like that they're
3:00:01isolated that that the systems that are
3:00:03meant to keep them safe like demoting
3:00:05misinformation stop working when people
3:00:07look at 2 000 posts a day
3:00:09right and I just it breaks my heart the
3:00:12idea that these rabbit holes would suck
3:00:14people down and then make it hard to
3:00:15connect with others
3:00:19so miss Hodgkin I desperately want to uh
3:00:24which is the American impulse I want to
3:00:25solve this problem
3:00:27and uh
3:00:29I very much uh believe that uh congress
3:00:33not only has a role but has a
3:00:34responsibility to figure this out
3:00:38I don't pretend to have all the answers
3:00:41I would value your opinion though as to
3:00:45whether you believe that breaking up
3:00:47Facebook would solve any of the problems
3:00:50that you've discussed today you think it
3:00:52would
3:00:53so as an algorithmic specialist so this
3:00:56is someone who designs algorithmic
3:00:58experiences I'm actually against the
3:01:00breaking up of Facebook because even
3:01:02looking inside of just Facebook itself
3:01:04so not even Facebook and Instagram you
3:01:06see the problems of Engagement based
3:01:07ranking repeat themselves so the
3:01:10problems here are about the design of
3:01:12algorithms of AI and the idea that AI is
3:01:14not intelligent
3:01:16and if you break up Instagram and
3:01:18Facebook from each other it's likely so
3:01:20I used to work on Pinterest
3:01:22and a thing that we Face from a business
3:01:24model perspective was that advertisers
3:01:26didn't want to learn multiple
3:01:27advertising platforms
3:01:29that they wanted to learn they got one
3:01:32platform for Instagram and Facebook and
3:01:33whatever and learning a second one for
3:01:35Pinterest Pinterest made radically fewer
3:01:38dollars per user and what I'm scared of
3:01:40is right now Facebook is the internet
3:01:42for lots of the world if you go to
3:01:44Africa the internet is Facebook if you
3:01:46split Facebook and Instagram apart it's
3:01:49likely that most advertising dollars
3:01:50will go to Instagram and Facebook will
3:01:52continue to be this Frankenstein that is
3:01:55altering like that is endangering lives
3:01:57around the world only now there won't be
3:01:58money to fund it so I think oversight
3:02:01and regular oversight and finding
3:02:04collaborative Solutions with Congress is
3:02:06going to be key because these systems
3:02:08are going to continue to exist and be
3:02:09dangerous even if broken up
3:02:13thank you thank you
3:02:16Senator Blackburn
3:02:18uh thank you Mr chairman uh
3:02:22I have a text that was just put up by
3:02:26Facebook spokesperson Andrew Stone
3:02:29it says just pointing out the fact that
3:02:32uh Francis Hogan did not work on child
3:02:36safety or Instagram or research these
3:02:39issues and has no direct knowledge of
3:02:42the topic from her work at Facebook
3:02:45so I will simply say this to Mr Stone if
3:02:49Facebook wants to discuss their
3:02:51targeting of children if they want to
3:02:56discuss their practices of privacy
3:03:00Invasion or violations of The Children
3:03:03online Privacy Act I am extending to you
3:03:07an invitation to step forward be sworn
3:03:11in and testify before this committee we
3:03:16would be pleased to hear from you and
3:03:19welcome your testimony
3:03:22um one quick question for you what's the
3:03:25biggest threat to Facebook's existence
3:03:27is agreed is it Regulators is it
3:03:33becoming uh extinct or obsolete for
3:03:37teenage users what is the biggest threat
3:03:40to their existence
3:03:42I think the fact that Facebook has
3:03:44driven so much by metrics and that these
3:03:46lead to a very heavy emphasis on
3:03:49short-termism that every little
3:03:52individual decision may seem like it
3:03:54helps with growth but if it makes it
3:03:56more and more toxic platform that people
3:03:58don't actually enjoy like when they
3:04:00passed meaningful social interaction
3:04:02meaningful social interactions back in
3:04:042018 Facebook's own research said that
3:04:06users said it made it less meaningful
3:04:08right I think this aggregated set of
3:04:12short-term decisions endangers
3:04:14Facebook's future okay but sometimes we
3:04:16need to pull it away from business as
3:04:20usual help it write new rules if we
3:04:22wanted to be successful in the future so
3:04:24they can't see the forest for the tests
3:04:26yes
3:04:28and I know Senator Klobuchar is waiting
3:04:31so I'll yield my time back and I thank
3:04:33you thanks Senator Blackman
3:04:35thank you very much and thank you to
3:04:37both of you for your leadership and all
3:04:40three of us are on the Judiciary
3:04:41Committee so we're also working on a
3:04:43host of other in issues including
3:04:46um the App Store issues
3:04:48um which is unrelated to Facebook
3:04:50actually uh including issues relating to
3:04:54dominant platforms when they promote
3:04:56their own content or engage in
3:04:58exclusionary conduct which I know is not
3:05:00our topic today I see the thumbs up from
3:05:02you Ms Hogan which I appreciate and I
3:05:05think this idea of establishing some
3:05:07rules of the road for these Tech
3:05:10platforms goes beyond the kid protection
3:05:14that we so dearly need to do and I just
3:05:17want to make sure you agree with me on
3:05:18that totally I was shocked when I saw
3:05:21the New York Times story a couple weeks
3:05:23ago about Facebook using its own
3:05:24platform to promote positive news about
3:05:26itself
3:05:27I was like wow
3:05:29I knew you shaped our reality I wasn't
3:05:31aware it was that much right and that's
3:05:33a lot of the work uh that we're doing
3:05:34over there so I want to get to something
3:05:36Senator young was talking about
3:05:37misinformation and uh Senator Luhan and
3:05:40I have put together a an exception
3:05:43actually to the 230 immunity when it
3:05:45comes to vaccine misinformation in the
3:05:48middle of a Public Health crisis
3:05:50um last week YouTube announced it was
3:05:52swiftly banning all anti-vaccine
3:05:55misinformation and I've long called on
3:05:58Facebook to take similar steps they've
3:06:00taken some steps but do you think they
3:06:03can remove this content and do they put
3:06:06sufficient resources we know the effect
3:06:08of this we know that over half the
3:06:10people that haven't gotten the vaccines
3:06:11it's because of something that they've
3:06:13seen on social media I know the guy I
3:06:16walked into a cafe and said his
3:06:17mother-in-law wouldn't get a vaccine
3:06:18because she thought a microchip would be
3:06:20planted in her arm could you which is
3:06:23false I'm just saying that for the
3:06:25record here
3:06:26um could in case it gets put on social
3:06:28media could you talk about are there are
3:06:32there enough resources to stop this from
3:06:34happening
3:06:35um I do not believe Facebook ad is
3:06:36currently structured has the capability
3:06:39to stop vaccine misinformation because
3:06:41they're overly reliant on artificial
3:06:43intelligence systems that they
3:06:44themselves say will likely never get
3:06:46more than 10 to 20 of content there you
3:06:49go
3:06:49and yet it's a company that what the cap
3:06:52over a trillion dollars from the world's
3:06:55biggest companies that we've ever known
3:06:57and that's what really bothers me here
3:06:59uh Senator Luhan and I also have pointed
3:07:02out the issue with content moderators
3:07:04does Facebook have enough content
3:07:06moderations for content in Spanish and
3:07:09other languages besides English
3:07:13um one of the things that was disclosed
3:07:14uh
3:07:16we have we have documentation that shows
3:07:19how much operational investment there
3:07:20was by different languages and it showed
3:07:23a consistent pattern of under investment
3:07:25in languages that are not English
3:07:28um I am deeply concerned about
3:07:31Facebook's ability to operate in a safe
3:07:33way in languages Beyond maybe the top 20
3:07:35in the world okay thank you we go back
3:07:39to eating disorders today you've said
3:07:41that you have documents indicating
3:07:42Facebook is doing studies on kids under
3:07:4413 Even though technically no kids under
3:07:4713 are permitted on the platform uh the
3:07:50potential for eating disorder content to
3:07:52be shown to these children raises
3:07:53serious concern Senator blumenthal's
3:07:55been working on this I've long been
3:07:57focused on this eating disorder issue
3:07:59given the mortality rates are you aware
3:08:02of studies Facebook has conducted about
3:08:04whether kids under 13 under 13. on the
3:08:07platform are nudged towards content
3:08:09related to eating disorders or unhealthy
3:08:11diet practices CNN also did
3:08:13investigation on this front
3:08:15I have not seen specific studies
3:08:18regarding uh eating disorders and under
3:08:21the age of 13 but I have seen research
3:08:23that indicates that they are aware that
3:08:26teenagers coach tweens who are on the
3:08:30platform
3:08:31to not reveal too much to not post too
3:08:35often and that they have categorized
3:08:36that as a myth that you can't be
3:08:38authentic on the platform
3:08:40and that the marketing team should talk
3:08:42should try to advertise to teenagers to
3:08:45stop coaching tweens that way
3:08:48um so we I believe we've shared that
3:08:49document with Congress exactly well
3:08:51thank you and we'll be looking more
3:08:52speaking of the research issue
3:08:56um Facebook has tried to downplay the
3:08:58internal research that was done saying
3:09:00it was unreliable reliable
3:09:03um it seems to me that they're trying to
3:09:05mislead us there the research was
3:09:06extensive surveying hundreds of
3:09:08thousands of people traveling around the
3:09:10world to interview users in your view
3:09:12are the internal researchers at Facebook
3:09:14who examine how users are affected by
3:09:17the platform
3:09:19um is their work thorough are they
3:09:22experienced is it fair for Facebook to
3:09:24throw them under the bus
3:09:26Facebook has one of the top ranked
3:09:28research programs in in the tech
3:09:30industry like they've invested more in
3:09:32it than and I than I believe any other
3:09:33social media platform uh
3:09:36the some of the biggest Heroes inside
3:09:38the company are the researchers because
3:09:39they are boldly asking real questions
3:09:42and being willing to say awkward truths
3:09:45um the fact that Facebook is throwing
3:09:46them under the bus I think is
3:09:47unacceptable and I just want researchers
3:09:50to know that I stand with them and that
3:09:51I see them or maybe we should say as the
3:09:54name of one book The Ugly Truth what
3:09:56about Facebook blocking researchers at
3:09:59NYU from accessing the platform does
3:10:01that concern you these are outside
3:10:03researchers I am deeply concerned so for
3:10:06context for those who are not familiar
3:10:07with this research there are researchers
3:10:09at NYU who because Facebook does not
3:10:13publish
3:10:14enough data on political advertisements
3:10:16or how they are distributed these are
3:10:18advertisements that influence our
3:10:20democracy and how it operates
3:10:22they created a plug-in that allowed
3:10:25people to opt in to volunteer to help
3:10:27collect this data collectively and
3:10:29Facebook lashed out at them and even
3:10:31banned some of their individual accounts
3:10:33the fact that Facebook is so scared of
3:10:35even basic transparency that it it goes
3:10:38out of its way to block researchers who
3:10:40are asking awkward questions shows you
3:10:42the need for congressional oversight and
3:10:44why we need to do federal research and
3:10:45federal regulations on this very good
3:10:48thank you thank you for your work
3:10:51thanks Senator Klobuchar uh Senator
3:10:53Markey
3:10:55thank you um thank you Mr chairman thank
3:10:59you for your incredible leadership on
3:11:01this issue
3:11:02um
3:11:03as early as 2012
3:11:06Facebook has wanted to allow children
3:11:08under the age of 12. to use this
3:11:11platform
3:11:12at that time in 2012 I wrote a letter to
3:11:14Facebook asking questions about what
3:11:17data it planned to collect and whether
3:11:20the company intended to serve targeted
3:11:22ads add children
3:11:24now here we are nine years later
3:11:26debating the very same issues today
3:11:30um Miss Hogan
3:11:31you've made it abundantly clear why
3:11:34Facebook wants to bring more children
3:11:36onto the platform
3:11:37it's still hooked them early just like
3:11:39cigarettes so that they become lifelong
3:11:41users so Facebook's profits increase yet
3:11:45we should also ask why in the last nine
3:11:48years has the company not launched
3:11:50Facebook for kids or Instagram for kids
3:11:53after all from the testimony here today
3:11:55Facebook appears to act without regard
3:11:57to any moral code or any conscience or
3:12:00instead puts profit about people profit
3:12:03Above All Else the reason why Facebook
3:12:06hasn't officially permitted kids 12 and
3:12:09under to use its platform is because the
3:12:13child online privacy protection act
3:12:15of 1998 that I'm the author of exists
3:12:19because there is a privacy law on the
3:12:22books which I author that gives the
3:12:24Federal Trade Commission regulatory
3:12:26power to stop websites and social media
3:12:29companies from invading the privacy of
3:12:32our children 12 and under that's why we
3:12:36need to expand the child online privacy
3:12:38protection act that's why we need to
3:12:40pass the kids act that Senator
3:12:43Blumenthal and I have introduced and why
3:12:46we need an algorithmic Justice act to
3:12:49pass because the absence of Regulation
3:12:52leads to harming stoking division
3:12:54damaging our democracy that's what
3:12:58you've told us today so Miss Hogan I
3:13:00want you to come back to the protections
3:13:03that you are calling on us to an act
3:13:07this isn't complicated
3:13:09we're going to be told online all day
3:13:11with these paid
3:13:13um
3:13:13Facebook people oh congress can't act
3:13:16they're not experts it's too complicated
3:13:19for uh Congress just get out of the way
3:13:22you're not experts well this isn't
3:13:25complicated Facebook and it's big Tech
3:13:27lobbyists are blocking my bills to
3:13:30protect kids because it would cost them
3:13:32money that's how complicated it is so
3:13:35let's start with the kids act at Senator
3:13:37Blumenthal and I that would ban
3:13:39influencer marketing to kids today's
3:13:42popular influencers pedal products while
3:13:46they flaunt their lavish Lifestyles to
3:13:48Young users can you explain how allowing
3:13:52influencer marketing to teens and
3:13:54children makes Facebook more money
3:14:01the business model that provides mostly
3:14:04a great deal of the content on Instagram
3:14:06is one where people produce content for
3:14:09free they put on Instagram free no one's
3:14:12charged for it but many of those content
3:14:14creators have sponsorships from from
3:14:18brands or from other affiliate programs
3:14:22um Facebook needs those content creators
3:14:25to continue to make content so that we
3:14:27will view content and in the process
3:14:29view more ads Facebook
3:14:33provides tools to support influencers
3:14:35and who do influence their marketing
3:14:37because it gives them the supply of
3:14:39content that allows them to keep people
3:14:41on the platform viewing more ads making
3:14:43more money for them
3:14:44so
3:14:45I am actually the author of the 1990
3:14:49children's television act what does that
3:14:52do well it says to all the television
3:14:54networks in America stop preying upon
3:14:56children stop using all of your power in
3:15:00order to try to get young children in
3:15:03our country hooked on the products that
3:15:04are going to be sold we had to pass a
3:15:06law that banned television stations from
3:15:09doing this that's why I knew that after
3:15:12my law passed in 1996 to break up the
3:15:15monopolies of the Telecommunications
3:15:18industry and allow in
3:15:20the Googles and the Facebooks and all
3:15:24the other companies you name it that we
3:15:27would need a child privacy protection
3:15:28there because everyone would just move
3:15:30over to that new venue it was pretty
3:15:33obvious and of course the industry said
3:15:34no way we're going to have privacy laws
3:15:37for adults and they block me from
3:15:39putting that on the books in 1996. but
3:15:42at least for children I got up to age 12
3:15:43that's all I could get out of the
3:15:46industry but
3:15:48we also know that as time has moved on
3:15:54it they become even more sophisticated
3:15:56so that
3:15:58the kids act is necessary to stop
3:16:01children and teen apps from being
3:16:03features such as likes and follower
3:16:06counts that quantify popularity uh Miss
3:16:09Hogan can you explain how allowing these
3:16:11features that create an online
3:16:14popularity contest makes Facebook more
3:16:16money
3:16:19um
3:16:21just to make sure so I I am only
3:16:23familiar with issues regarding teens
3:16:25from the research I have read of
3:16:27Facebook's so I wanted to put that
3:16:29caveat on there the research I have seen
3:16:31with regard to quantifiable popularity
3:16:33is that as long as comments are allowed
3:16:36so this is not a quantitative thing this
3:16:38is just comments as long as long as
3:16:40comments are still on posts on Instagram
3:16:42take just taking likes off Instagram
3:16:46doesn't fix the social comparison
3:16:48problem that you know teenage girls are
3:16:50smart they see that Sally is prettier
3:16:52than them her pictures are really good
3:16:53she gets tons of comments they don't
3:16:55give her many comments right
3:16:58um and so I do think we need larger
3:17:00interventions than just removing
3:17:02quantitative measures
3:17:05um
3:17:05Facebook has a product that is very
3:17:08attractive
3:17:09um the reason why they have the study of
3:17:12problematic use is because it is kind of
3:17:13addictive and those kinds of things like
3:17:16having lots of little feedback loops
3:17:18keeps kids engaged and like I mentioned
3:17:21earlier part of why Facebook switched
3:17:23over to meaningful social interactions
3:17:25was it found that if you got more likes
3:17:27more comments more reshares you produced
3:17:29more content
3:17:30and so having those systems of of little
3:17:34rewards makes people produce more
3:17:36content which means we view more content
3:17:37and we view more ads which makes them
3:17:39more money okay and the kids act that
3:17:43Senator Blumenthal and I are advocating
3:17:45for also prohibits amplification of
3:17:48dangerous and violent content to
3:17:50children and teens can you explain how
3:17:52algorithms pushing that dangerous
3:17:55content makes Facebook more money
3:17:58and I don't think Facebook ever set out
3:18:00to intentionally promote
3:18:02divisive extreme polarizing content I do
3:18:06think though that that they are aware of
3:18:08the side effects of the choices they
3:18:10have made around amplification and they
3:18:12know that algorithmic-based ranking so
3:18:15engagement based ranking keeps you on
3:18:17their sites longer you have long you
3:18:19have longer sessions you show up more
3:18:21often and that makes them more money
3:18:23so do you believe we have to ban all
3:18:26features that quantify popularity as a
3:18:30starting point in legislation
3:18:33um as I as I covered before the internal
3:18:37research I've seen is that removing
3:18:38things like likes alone if you don't
3:18:40remove things like comments uh it
3:18:42doesn't have a huge impact on social
3:18:44comparison so I do believe we need to
3:18:46have a more integrated
3:18:47um solution for these issues should we
3:18:49ban targeted advertisements to children
3:18:52I encourage Banning targeted
3:18:54advertisements to children and we need
3:18:56to have oversight in terms of I think
3:18:58the algorithms will likely still learn
3:19:01the interests of kids and match ads to
3:19:03those kids even if the advertiser can't
3:19:05articulate and want to Target on this
3:19:07interest right how much money does
3:19:09Facebook made make from targeting
3:19:11children I don't know what fraction of
3:19:13their revenue comes from children okay
3:19:14so ultimately children are not
3:19:16commodities no they've always been given
3:19:19historically special protections that's
3:19:22what the children's television Act of
3:19:241990 is all about
3:19:26they've always been given this special
3:19:29safety zone so the children can grow up
3:19:31without being preyed upon
3:19:35by marketers
3:19:37when I was a boy and the salesman would
3:19:39knock on the front door my mother would
3:19:41just say tell them I'm not home that man
3:19:44is not getting into our living room
3:19:47well I would say to my mother but you
3:19:50are home not to him
3:19:53well we need to give parents the ability
3:19:56just to say
3:19:57no one's home for you and your company
3:20:00and your attempts to Prey Upon children
3:20:02to get into our living room that's our
3:20:04moment in history we have to make sure
3:20:06that we respond to the challenge thank
3:20:09you Mr chairman thank you uh Senator
3:20:11Markey and my thanks to Senator Markey
3:20:13for his leadership over many years on
3:20:16protecting children uh as you've heard
3:20:19he was a
3:20:21champion in the House of Representatives
3:20:23because before coming here well before I
3:20:26was in the United States Senate but
3:20:28around the time I was elected attorney
3:20:30general I've been very pleased and
3:20:32honored to work with them on
3:20:34legislation now going forward and I join
3:20:37him in thanking you I have just a few
3:20:39concluding questions and I seem to be
3:20:42the last one left standing here so the
3:20:45good news is I don't think
3:20:48um we'll have others but uh as you may
3:20:51know
3:20:52um you do know my office created an
3:20:55Instagram user identified as a 13 year
3:20:58old girl uh she followed a few easily
3:21:03identifiable accounts on
3:21:06weight loss dieting eating disorders and
3:21:10she was deluged literally within a day
3:21:13of
3:21:15content pushed to her by
3:21:19algorithms that in effect promoted
3:21:24self-injury and eating disorders are you
3:21:27surprised by that fact I'm not surprised
3:21:30by that fact Facebook has internal
3:21:32research where they have done even more
3:21:35gentle versions of that experiment where
3:21:37they have started from things like
3:21:38interest in healthy recipes so not even
3:21:40extreme dieting and because of the
3:21:42nature of Engagement based ranking and
3:21:45amplification of interests
3:21:47that that imaginary user was pushed or
3:21:50that that real good account was pushed
3:21:52towards extreme dieting and pro-anorexia
3:21:54content very rapidly
3:21:56and that's the algorithm that's the
3:21:58algorithm
3:21:59that algorithm could be changed the
3:22:02algorithm definitely could be changed I
3:22:03I have first-hand experience from having
3:22:05worked at Pinterest Pinterest used to be
3:22:07an application that was heavily based
3:22:09just on you follow certain people's pins
3:22:11and those are put into your feed
3:22:14and over time it grew to be much much
3:22:16more heavily based on recommendations
3:22:17that the algorithm would figure out what
3:22:20are you interested in
3:22:23you can have wonderful experiences that
3:22:25are based on human interactions so these
3:22:27are human scale Technologies not
3:22:29computers choosing what we focus on
3:22:33so the average parent listening here
3:22:35worried about
3:22:37their daughter or son
3:22:40being gallued with these kinds of
3:22:44content
3:22:46would want that kind of algorithm
3:22:48changed I would think and would welcome
3:22:49the oversight that you're recommending
3:22:53I I believe parents deserve more options
3:22:55and more choices and today they don't
3:22:57know even what they could be asking for
3:23:00I just received by text literally about
3:23:0515 minutes ago a message from someone in
3:23:09Connecticut
3:23:11and I'm going to read it to you
3:23:13it's from a dad
3:23:15um
3:23:19I'm in tears right now
3:23:21watching your interaction
3:23:24with Francis Haugen
3:23:26my 15 year old daughter loved her body
3:23:29at 14.
3:23:30was on Instagram constantly
3:23:33and maybe posting too much suddenly she
3:23:37started hating her body her body
3:23:39dysmorphia now anorexia
3:23:42and was in deep deep trouble before we
3:23:44found treatment
3:23:46I fear she'll never be the same
3:23:50and broken heart
3:23:53I think people tend to lose sight of the
3:23:55real world impact yeah
3:23:58and
3:23:59um I think that's the reason that you're
3:24:01here
3:24:03um I just like to invite you
3:24:06if you have any words to those
3:24:09other
3:24:12employees at Big Tech the workers who
3:24:14may be troubled by the misconduct or
3:24:17unethical conduct
3:24:19that they see what you would tell them
3:24:24we live in
3:24:26a pattern that we have seen throughout
3:24:27time with regards to Technologies is the
3:24:30humans are very crafty people like we
3:24:32find interesting Solutions but we often
3:24:34get out over our skis right we we
3:24:37develop things that are of a larger
3:24:38scale than we know really know how to
3:24:40handle
3:24:41and what we have done in the past is
3:24:43when we see this happen we take a step
3:24:45back and we find institutions and we
3:24:47find Frameworks for doing these things
3:24:49in a safe way
3:24:51we live in a moment where whistleblowers
3:24:54are very important because these
3:24:56technological systems Are Walled off
3:24:58they are very complicated they're things
3:25:00that you need to be a specialist to
3:25:02really understand the consequences of
3:25:04and the fact that we've been having the
3:25:05exact same kinds of false Choice
3:25:08discussions about what to do about
3:25:09Facebook you know is it about privacy or
3:25:11oversight is it about censorship or
3:25:14safety like the fact that we're being
3:25:16asked these false choices is just an
3:25:18illustration of what happens when the
3:25:20real solutions are hidden inside of
3:25:22companies we need more Tech employees to
3:25:26come forward through legitimate channels
3:25:27like the SEC or Congress to make sure
3:25:30that the public has the information they
3:25:32need in order to have Technologies be
3:25:35human-centric not not computer-centric
3:25:39thank you
3:25:40on that note we'll conclude
3:25:43thank you for an extraordinary
3:25:46testimony
3:25:47I think that anybody watching would be
3:25:50impressed and much better informed and
3:25:53you've done
3:25:55America real public service thank you
3:25:58uh the record will remain open for a
3:26:01week I'm sorry for two weeks any
3:26:02Senators who want to submit questions
3:26:05for the records should do so by October
3:26:07for October 19th this hearing is
3:26:10adjourned thank you
3:26:15thank you
3:26:50foreign

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