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Extreme Listening with Deeyah Khan | A Bit of Optimism (Podcast): Episode 11 — Transcript

by Simon Sinek · 9,828 words · 1,347 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00[Music]
0:06extreme listening are two words that
0:09don't usually go together but there is
0:11no other way to describe what diacon
0:14does she made a documentary called White
0:16right meeting the enemy where she as a
0:19Muslim woman goes and spends time with
0:21white supremacists trying to understand
0:24what makes them tick and the way she
0:26gets through to them is by listening if
0:29we all learn learn to listen like Dia it
0:31is Absolut remarkable the breakthroughs
0:33we will all be able to make this is a
0:36bit of
0:40optimism Dia I can't tell you what a
0:42treat this is for me I saw your
0:44documentary white right yeah when it
0:46first came out oh wow it struck me so
0:50hard how you were able to
0:54explore that human beings are basically
0:56human beings yeah what I loved about it
0:59was you went for a dark subject and you
1:03found light we should probably say for
1:05people who haven't seen it you decided
1:07to go and spend time with white
1:08supremacists yes and you were actually I
1:11won't say marching with but walking with
1:14those white supremacists in
1:15Charlottesville when all of that went
1:17down yes yes which was insane I mean I
1:21had no idea at the time when this white
1:23supremacist group said we're going to
1:24this rally it's going to be in this
1:26place called Charlottesville and I was
1:27like oh okay great CU i' had gone to
1:29some of like the Clan rallies before
1:30then and it would be like you know four
1:32toothless people there and I was like
1:34okay well it' be nine people at this one
1:37yeah I'll come along fine great I just
1:38get to spend more time with one of the
1:40guys I was very interested in that's
1:42fine and then of course early in the
1:44morning I remember they all gathered in
1:45this parking lot and it was so many
1:49people and there were so many weapons
1:51and there were so many military uniforms
1:54and I'm of course the only non-white
1:56person there and I've got a camera so
1:57that's sort of two strikes against me
1:59and I had people come up to me going you
2:01know who the f are you and what are you
2:02doing here and who are you with so yeah
2:06great morning and then they get to the
2:08actual parking lot that they were all
2:10sort of getting themselves all ramped up
2:11before they marched into Charlottesville
2:14and there they had their Shields they
2:16had the batons they had their weapons
2:18and they're all chanting blood and soil
2:21blood and soil and something about
2:23starting the
2:24deportations that that will happen soon
2:26basically and I just remember just
2:28feeling absolutely ter terrified walking
2:30into the streets with these guys and
2:33then of course you've got anti-racists
2:35lining the streets shouting and
2:36screaming and everybody's throwing stuff
2:38and I got pepper sprayed and it was it
2:40was all very very intense because the
2:41violence broke out very quickly and of
2:44course I'm looking at some of the
2:45anti-ra is going in I'm with you don't
2:48throw something I'm just filming but
2:50going back to what you were saying
2:51earlier in terms of finding light when I
2:54think about the films that I make and
2:55the topics that I I find myself drawn to
2:58I've often wondered you know is there
2:59something really messed up in my head
3:02the fact that I'm drawn to such sort of
3:03ugliness and ugly Behavior the Dark Side
3:06of human beings but you know every film
3:09that I do every dark subject that I
3:11touch I'm always looking for the hope
3:14I'm actually always looking for the
3:15light I'm actually always looking for
3:17the love I'm looking for the cracks
3:20where some level of humanity might
3:23reside so the whole entire process of
3:25making the films is trying to understand
3:27the darkness but in search of there's
3:30got to be more there and there always is
3:33I think that by very definition of Hope
3:35and optimism it requires you going to
3:37the tunnel it requires you going to the
3:38dark to find the light in in this case
3:40of this one film when you go looking at
3:43White supremacists not to say aren't
3:45they horrible people because we know
3:48that we already know that we know their
3:49behavior is a part we don't need a
3:51documentary for that no no but to go and
3:54say what is it that we don't understand
3:55that we're not doing yeah and the thing
3:58that I found absolutely Aston
4:00in was that this one gift that you have
4:04this one skill that you have of
4:07listening that these white supremacists
4:10weren't going to change their stripes by
4:12being screamed at and yelled at if
4:14anything they're going to dig in even
4:15deeper or being told that they're
4:18abhorent but rather that very Human
4:21Experience of feeling heard all of a
4:24sudden the narrative their narrative
4:26started to unravel yeah and to watch
4:29them
4:30struggle with wanting to hate you
4:33because of what they've been taught but
4:34actually liking you and trusting you
4:36because of how you make them feel heard
4:39I was just an amazing thing to
4:43watch and I think is so relevant to so
4:46much of what we're going through today
4:49yeah in this unbelievably polarized
4:52nation that we're living in and the
4:54failure of both sides is the failure to
4:56listen yeah I agree people always talk
5:00about Trump this and Trump that I get it
5:03and I agree with it but the one thing
5:04that Trump has done is that he has made
5:08a segment of the
5:10population feel heard feel as if they
5:14matter somebody calls you deplorable and
5:17somebody says you are forgotten no more
5:19who do you think touches your heart who
5:21do you think you will sign up with even
5:24if everything else he stands for is
5:25irrelevant and might even be against
5:27your own needs and your own rights but
5:29you just go that's it and when people
5:32look at our societies and we look at our
5:34politics and we look at all the
5:35different challenges that we have in
5:37some ways and I don't actually think
5:39this is oversimplifying it it is just
5:41about human relationships all of this is
5:44about human relationships all of this is
5:46about connection or a disconnect a
5:48fracture between people all of this is
5:51about people and the same way of
5:53listening and same way of being there
5:56with each other in those rooms that I
5:58found myself with some of the these guys
6:00is the same gestures that we would make
6:02towards somebody in our own life but the
6:06difference is we care about the person
6:07in our own life because we've chosen to
6:09be in a relationship with them but the
6:11reality is we are all different kinds of
6:14people sort of shoved together in all
6:16all these communities and countries and
6:18expected just to make it work and it
6:20doesn't work like that it requires
6:22effort even the relationships we want to
6:24be in require effort and even
6:26relationships we want to be in are
6:28difficult and our relationships don't
6:29want to be in it from time to time but
6:32there is a commitment there that we're
6:33going to get through this we're going to
6:35make it work because we're in this
6:37together so we will fix it we'll make it
6:40but on a societal level we haven't done
6:42that to each other we haven't made that
6:44commitment to each other that it doesn't
6:46matter whatever convulsions we might go
6:48through as a society but we're going to
6:49make it and our leaders certainly are
6:51unable to articulate that for some
6:53reason and instead are exploiting the
6:55fractures between us but I think if we
6:58don't find a way way to make this work
7:01the alternative to dialogue is violence
7:05and you're seeing it and you're going to
7:06see it more so we have no choice in a
7:09way where does that violence come from
7:11is it just pent up
7:12frustration do you get a sense of why it
7:15came out in violence as opposed to civil
7:18discourse or debate or uncomfortable
7:21discussions what led it to violence is
7:23it that these people are predisposed to
7:25violence or did the opposing point of
7:27view contribute in some way shape or
7:29form to push them towards violence I
7:31think it is pent up frustration but I
7:33think violence is also easy having a
7:35conversation and reflecting and being
7:38willing to really be there with somebody
7:41else is difficult because you might hear
7:43things and feel things that you don't
7:44want to feel and it's about the other
7:47person but it's also about yourself when
7:48you sit with each other you also learn
7:50things about yourself you might not want
7:52to face that's difficult so in some ways
7:56I think it's easier to lash out in
7:57violence in our societies I also feel
8:00like men in particular have also been
8:02sort of socialized and trained
8:05to understand violence or aggression and
8:10anger as sort of the only ways that
8:12you're allowed to express any kind of
8:15hurt any kind of suffering any kind of
8:17Brokenness so I think for some men
8:20that's just what you do and it's a
8:21legitimate way of expressing whatever
8:24feelings and fears that you have also I
8:27think a lot of people feel that that's a
8:28show of strength
8:30that you know people who feel broken or
8:32people who feel inadequate or people who
8:34feel like they don't matter once you act
8:36out in violence because I've also done
8:38films about jihadis and I found the same
8:40sort of traits with them is that the
8:43brutality a lot of it came from wanting
8:45to sort of mask their insecurities and
8:49their inadequacies and their lack of
8:51respect for themselves and not feeling
8:53like they're good enough and not feeling
8:55like they're even worthy of respect so
8:58they'll sett for being feared because
9:01being feared and being respected
9:03sometimes that's a very similar feeling
9:05it's a fine line yeah fuz fuzzy line at
9:07the very minimum yeah and do we
9:09contribute to the triggering of the
9:11violence I do think that when there is
9:14nothing but walls everywhere when
9:16everyone is hardened everyone's heart is
9:18hardened and there's no possibility
9:20there's no space there's no Oxygen for
9:23anything else then in a way it also
9:26makes sense that that's the step that
9:28people move towards because they go well
9:30this is the only thing I have and this
9:31is the only thing the other side also
9:33expects from me there's such a great
9:35irony in all of this isn't there because
9:37both sides accuse the other of being
9:39judgmental completely missing the fact
9:42how much they judge yeah well you know
9:45what's really interesting to me is with
9:47very few exceptions in our minds
9:50everyone's the good guy everyone's the
9:52sort of hero in their own head and most
9:55people who do awful things in their
9:57minds don't think that they're doing
9:59awful things they think they're actually
10:00doing the right thing they actually
10:02think they're doing the righteous thing
10:03they are somehow defending something
10:06that is under attack so they are on the
10:10side of right not I'm the villain of the
10:12story very few people do reside in that
10:14too and and take great pleasure in it
10:15but that's very few people do you
10:17remember the movie in glorious bastards
10:19yes I know the film I haven't seen it
10:21unfortunately Kristoff vultz an Austrian
10:24actor plays the head Nazi I mean he's
10:28scar
10:29good and he he goes on an interview on
10:32David
10:33Letterman and Letterman says to him how
10:37were you able to play evil incarnate so
10:40well what did you have to do to prepare
10:43for that part and Kristoff volz doesn't
10:46understand the question he says but he's
10:49not evil oh my goodness yeah and
10:53Letterman says but where inside yourself
10:55did you have to go to be able to play
10:57this character so effectively
10:59and you see the two of them completely
11:01not being able to understand each other
11:02CU what Kristoff vultz did so well is he
11:05played the character believing he was on
11:07the side of right yeah because evil is
11:10what the other person calls you yes no
11:13one Nazis didn't think they were evil no
11:15we thought that they were evil and what
11:18made him so scary is he wasn't an actor
11:21playing an evil guy he was an actor
11:24pretending that he was on the side of
11:26right and that's what made it horrific
11:28to watch
11:30wow and you should now go watch the film
11:33I will I definitely that gives me
11:34goosebumps yes and to your point evil is
11:38a judgment yeah everyone thinks they're
11:42on the side of good yeah empathetic
11:44listening we don't have even go so far
11:46as it to say empathy you don't have to
11:48have empathy but empathetic
11:49listening is to show up not accusing the
11:52other person of being evil but rather to
11:54try and understand where they're coming
11:57from exct exactly and that was the whole
12:00purpose of making the film was exactly
12:04that I wanted to try and understand I
12:07don't need to know what a Neo-Nazi
12:09thinks I don't need to know what a
12:11Clansman thinks we already know that
12:14there's no news in that there's nothing
12:16I can really grapple with in that so for
12:19me it's more why do they think the
12:21things that they do why do they do the
12:22things that they do why do people behave
12:25like this and feel the things that they
12:26feel and and find it within them to
12:28treat others like that so I wanted to
12:31understand that I did an interview with
12:32the BBC and I got so many death threats
12:35from white supremacist because I
12:36defended Multicultural societies and
12:39that this is a fact and reality and this
12:41is just what we're going to have to live
12:42with and the interview went viral and I
12:45ended up on various very violent racist
12:47websites especially in the US and
12:50actually the police ended up having to
12:51be involved because of the BBC I sort of
12:53laughed it off at the beginning going
12:55this is just stupid I've had this before
12:56from the Jihadi side and the threats are
12:59the same that everything they're saying
13:01is exactly the same just their little
13:02icons are different and so I just
13:05laughed it off and the police were like
13:06no really you need to take this
13:08seriously you know stay away from
13:09Windows do this do that whatever and at
13:11the moment I remember thinking so here
13:13it is again so I can either be afraid
13:16which I've been afraid of people like
13:18this my whole life or I can try to do
13:21something different which is try and
13:22seek them out try and see if it's
13:24possible to sit with them and can I
13:27recognize their human and can they
13:29recognize mine is that doable when you
13:31sit in person and can I find a way of
13:34understanding them as human beings
13:36behind the rhetoric behind the chest
13:39beating and the ideology and all of that
13:42and behind the threats so that's what I
13:44wanted to do and I also was quite
13:46conscious about how I was wanting to for
13:49these conversations to go I did not want
13:51it to be I'll tell you all my politics
13:55and all my views and I'll Pat myself on
13:57the back for having all the correct
13:58views use then you get to shout your
14:00stuff and then we all sort of wipe our
14:02hands and we all go off and I can get to
14:04be the great anti-racist you get to be
14:06the great Nazi and you get to sort of
14:08speak to your audience and recruit more
14:09people so I was very conscious of the
14:11fact that I didn't want the conversation
14:13to go there and I also didn't want them
14:15to sort of set the table for how this
14:17was going to go so I knew that they were
14:19going to try to provoke me I knew that
14:21they were going to try to make me afraid
14:22and all of that and I was not going to
14:24fall for it I'm not going to let them
14:26push my buttons even if they did
14:29and that I just wanted to listen I'm
14:31just going to listen and I'm going to
14:33wait until the human being starts coming
14:36out and the very first Neo-Nazi that I
14:38met with he's the leader of the National
14:41Socialist movement is the largest and
14:42one of the oldest Neo-Nazi organization
14:44white supremacist organizations in
14:45America and he said he's one of the
14:48first people that actually agreed to
14:49meet with me because most of them didn't
14:50even want to meet with me and he said
14:51look you come to this specific Motel you
14:53get one hour and then you basically you
14:55need to disappear and I said okay at
14:57least he said yes so yes fine I show up
15:00there and then of course I suddenly
15:01start realizing this is going to happen
15:04this guy is going to walk through these
15:05doors what if he has weapons what if he
15:07has people with him what if they rob us
15:09and it's just me and one other person
15:10that do all the filming I don't have
15:12security or anything like that and he
15:15comes in and he sits down and this is
15:16the first guy that you see in the film
15:18and we talk for five hours and at the
15:20end of those five hours he's the one
15:22that said we're going to this rally in
15:25this place called Charlottesville and
15:26you're welcome to join us and I remember
15:28asking him I said look why did you let
15:30me talk to you for longer first of all
15:32and secondly why are you willing to
15:33spend more time with me and he said look
15:35I disagree with everything you say
15:37everything you stand for and he said and
15:39the and the world view and the picture
15:40of the future that you're speaking about
15:43he said I actively will continue to work
15:45against that because I don't like it but
15:47I respect your sincerity he said you are
15:49very clearly very sincerely committed to
15:52your view but he said I've never been
15:55asked some of the questions that you've
15:56asked and he said and I've never had a
15:58conversation like this he said I've done
16:00so many interviews and he gets to be the
16:03big bad Nazi in all of those interviews
16:05which are considered very successful
16:06interviews for him and he said typically
16:08they go two ways one is either I get to
16:12sort of dominate the interviewer and and
16:14so I win or the interviewer basically
16:17puts me in a corner and so then I get to
16:20continue with my Victim story so I win
16:23either way I win and he said this went
16:25somewhere else and he said nobody's been
16:27willing to listen and no body's shared
16:29with me how they feel he said I don't
16:30quite know why but I would like to
16:33continue talking and so we have spent a
16:35lot of time since and this wasn't in the
16:37film because it hadn't happened yet but
16:39last year or was it earlier this year
16:42lost all perspective of time but he's
16:44left he has completely stepped away he
16:48publicly speaks for a peace and the
16:51opposite of what he used to
16:53be I think the the hard thing for people
16:57to reconcile with
16:59your
17:01strategy is it's unpredictable in time
17:06yeah it's a process yes you know which
17:09is we want results and we want results
17:11now yeah you know we want black lives
17:13matter we want police reform and we want
17:15it now yeah and we want to completely
17:17change the way cultures have evolved
17:19over decades if not centuries now and
17:24the reality is
17:25violence is the only way to Force
17:28something Revolution is the only way to
17:30force something to happen immediately
17:32but for the fact that there's always a
17:34counterrevolution and it's incredibly
17:36unpredictable and unstable and no
17:38guarantee that whatever we change is
17:40going to last yeah and so this process
17:44of chipping away and
17:45unraveling way more stable way more
17:49sticky yeah but unpredictable in time
17:52could take a year could take three years
17:56could take five years yeah if we stick
17:58stick with the process it's going to
17:59work it's going to work yeah just don't
18:01know how long and the fact that here we
18:04have the head of a white supremacist the
18:06oldest white supremacist organization in
18:08the nation yes volunteering to step down
18:12not because of public pressure not
18:13because of Scandal not because of law no
18:17but by choice happened over how many
18:19years from when you first met him so it
18:22would have been 3 years the very last
18:25day I filmed with him I was stuck in a
18:27car with him for n hours I went to meet
18:29him in Detroit and then he drove from
18:31Detroit to Charlottesville and after a
18:34lot of time filming together we sort of
18:35got to the point where he would tolerate
18:37a lot of annoying poking from me and I
18:40also realized that I can get away with
18:42more and more and basically started
18:44saying that I'm like an annoying little
18:46sister for him and you know haha that's
18:47fine and whatever and the very very last
18:50day he goes to his car I was about to
18:52pack up some of our equipment and I ran
18:54over to him and I said look is it okay
18:55to give you a hug and I want to thank
18:57you and I really appre appreciate how
18:59willing you've been to just speak and
19:01listen and he said yeah and then he
19:03hugged me and I said you know I'm sorry
19:05for being an annoying little sister to
19:06you and he says you have a brother now
19:10and at that moment I knew and I couldn't
19:13say this when the film came out because
19:14he was still the leader of this thing
19:17but I knew in that moment he's this
19:18isn't going to last he's going to leave
19:20he might leave in 10 years just like you
19:22said he might leave in 10 years he might
19:23leave in 10 days I don't know but he is
19:25going to leave he cannot keep this up
19:29and I also remember the morning after
19:32Charlottesville he had a couple of young
19:35people around him who were just so
19:38horrible the things that they said and
19:40they just so aggressive and awful awful
19:43awful to you to to me and to other
19:45people and I had it out with one of them
19:48and Jeff was there and I remember
19:49looking at him going why are you with
19:51these people I said you know better than
19:53this you're not like this I said you're
19:56a decent person I said I know you
19:57believe all kinds of garbage but I said
19:59you're a decent person I know it I can
20:01see
20:02it why are you doing this why are you a
20:06part of this uh and he never said
20:08anything he just stood there with sort
20:09of just you his jaw on the floor and
20:11just couldn't say anything I was right
20:14he couldn't keep breathing and being
20:18part of that but you also appreciated
20:20the stuckness yes which is I've spent so
20:23many years building up a Persona
20:25position a point of view a reputation
20:28that to Simply say I'm out no there's a
20:31process it's not unlike being in any
20:34relationship where you're in a romantic
20:37relationship with someone that you spent
20:39a lot of time investing in that there's
20:41lots of feelings they have feelings
20:43towards you and you realize this is
20:45untenable yeah and rarely do we just
20:47wake up one morning and just break up
20:50yeah depending on the the length of
20:51relationships it can take months or
20:54years to extricate ourselves from these
20:57relationships because there's so much
20:59there's common friends and there's
21:00family and these decisions to completely
21:03pull ourselves out of established
21:05relationships are not simple and so when
21:07the quote unquote opposition demands
21:11extrication because we say so on our
21:13timetable
21:15yeah it fails to appreciate just the
21:18humanity and the difficulty of this yeah
21:21these guys that are part of these
21:22violent groups and part of extremist
21:25movements their entire sense of self
21:28their identity their everything their
21:31position in life everything is bound up
21:34in that movement in that ideology part
21:36of the trick of of extremist movements
21:38and any kind of violent gangs is you are
21:41separated from your family you are
21:43separated from your sort of original
21:45support system and community and so that
21:48becomes your only Brotherhood it becomes
21:50your everything like you say you know
21:51your relationships are that your
21:52identity is that I am this feared tough
21:55leader all that stuff and then suddenly
21:58what do you do and he still to this day
22:00struggles and still you know him and I
22:02are in touch with each other and before
22:04he even came out he's like they're going
22:06to kill me and they're going to kill me
22:07on both sides and I was like look from
22:10the other perspective which I can also
22:13see you also cannot leave and expect
22:17everything to be washed off you
22:19instantly so I said you also have to
22:21have patience and I know it's very
22:23difficult and I know sometimes you're
22:25tempted maybe it's easier just to go
22:26back because at least I know that and he
22:28he'll say things like I don't even know
22:30what civilian life is like he said I've
22:32been in this for so long I don't even
22:33know and he said like I know nobody
22:36outside I have no friends I have no
22:38support outside imagine that imagine how
22:41hard it is to do that and then you're
22:43just getting slapped around from every
22:44side your your former Brothers you know
22:47want to now assassinate you because
22:48you're a race traitor and then you've
22:51got the left saying I don't believe you
22:52once a Nazi always a Nazi punch a Nazi
22:54you know all that whole thing but to him
22:57I said I don't know what to tell you
22:58except you're going to have to hang in
22:59there and you have to do your time you
23:01don't get to be forgiven in two seconds
23:03either because the things that you did
23:05the things that you inspired and what
23:07you stood for has caused a lot of harm
23:10and so just saying I'm done and now hug
23:13me is not also a realistic expectation
23:16you have to respect the hurt that you've
23:18caused so now you do your time and I
23:21said and look I'll try to be there for
23:22you and others who can will try to be
23:24there for you but you're going to have
23:26to hang in there yeah some how and it's
23:28easy to say that and it's devastatingly
23:31difficult to be in his shoes because he
23:33really has nothing and nobody this is
23:35the irony of belonging yes which is we
23:39all desperately seek to feel like we
23:41belong to something and when we are for
23:43whatever reason marginalized yeah we
23:47still seek belonging exactly it's so so
23:50true when I did a film about jihadis
23:53people are so kind of confused and also
23:56sort of bothered by me saying some of
23:57this but I said look what what I've
23:59learned from spending a couple of years
24:00with these guys and and mind you I have
24:03nothing in common with them I have no
24:05sympathy for their cause there's no
24:07excusing what any of them believe
24:09whether it's a white supremacist or
24:10that's not the point of trying to
24:12understand is not to justify or excuse
24:14these beliefs or even to sympathize with
24:17it empathy is not the same as you know
24:19sympathy it's just to try and understand
24:21it so that we as the rest of society or
24:24as individuals can be more effective in
24:26doing something about it so when I spent
24:28these you know several years with the
24:30jihadis what I came to understand this
24:33is when Isis was just kind of you know
24:35getting really big around whenever it
24:37was 2013 something like that 14 and
24:40people were saying oh they're driven by
24:41hate and oh my goodness and they're just
24:43so evil and they're just these monsters
24:45and my goodness and this word belonging
24:48kept coming back also this warmth I said
24:52to people that they're actually not
24:54driven by hate they're actually driven
24:56by love and I know that makes no sense
24:59to people when we talk about you know
25:01guys who go and behead journalists so I
25:04get that but that's still the truth the
25:06majority of them were driven by love
25:09people who didn't have fathers who
25:11didn't have love in their own homes who
25:13were rejected by everybody rejected by
25:15other brown people other black people
25:17other white people by every by by women
25:19by everybody and then they find this
25:21group that says hey you're one of us
25:25they put their arm around you and say
25:27it's okay you're okay and I'm with you
25:31and it's going to be okay and so the
25:33Loyalty that's why the kind of grooming
25:35process or the radicalization process
25:37takes quite a while you know these
25:39groups spent hundreds of hours on
25:42recruiting just one kid how much time do
25:45we spend with a kid that's struggling so
25:48we're up against a pretty tough well
25:51machined very human Centric bizarrely
25:54movements how good must that make you
25:57feel that somebody takes that much time
25:59to talk to you and to try to understand
26:01you and to try to be with you in your
26:03difficulties and try to talk through
26:04whatever struggles you're having in your
26:06life so the sense of loyalty and love
26:10that that builds between that recruit
26:12and whoever his recruiter is is
26:15unbreakable if that guy then asks this
26:18young person to go blow themselves up or
26:19to go do something many of them not all
26:22of them but many of them go and do
26:24horrible horrible things for the love of
26:25that person and I would witnessed this I
26:28had a very strange experience myself I
26:30met with this young woman in the UK who
26:33was having a very difficult time and I I
26:35was just nice to her and I just listened
26:37to her and was supportive to her
26:38whenever I was able to she'd had a
26:40horrible horrible horrible violent
26:43upbringing and I remember we sat on this
26:45train back to London at one point and I
26:47told her this I said you know working on
26:49this film you know these guys that build
26:51this loyalty and then they go and they
26:52do horrible things and whatever and they
26:54do it for these kind of leaders and
26:56whatever and and she looks me dead in
26:58the in the face and she said I would do
27:01that for you and I said what what and
27:04she said I would I would go kill or be
27:06killed for
27:08you just because you shown me love just
27:11because you've been nice to me just
27:13because you were there for me when I
27:14needed somebody you know and I remember
27:17when I sat with the jihadis they would
27:18say you know I've been discriminated
27:19against I've been this I felt like this
27:21I felt like an outsider I felt broken I
27:22felt long long long laundry list and I
27:24remember finding myself sitting there
27:26going yeah me too wow yeah I I felt like
27:29that I went through that I went through
27:31wow okay and then I would always be left
27:34with a question well what is it then if
27:36all our experiences are pretty much the
27:38same and then I'm a woman on top of it
27:40so I've had to deal with all of that
27:41stuff too what is it that makes me pick
27:44up a camera and you pick up a gun what
27:47is that what's the difference then and
27:49the only difference that I can sort of
27:51identify is who is it that shows up in
27:54your life at your most broken at your
27:56most vulnerable willing to listen
27:58willing to be there for you who
28:00recruited you is the difference exactly
28:02exactly so is it somebody that wishes me
28:04well and that wants me to flourish and
28:06grow as a human being or is it somebody
28:09who takes my pain and manipulates that
28:12and winds that up towards their own
28:14political game that's the difference we
28:17have to point this out which is a big
28:18difference and these organizations are
28:20so good at this as you said their
28:21survival has been built upon it yeah the
28:24al-Qaeda recruiting magazine was called
28:25Inspire yeah which is when these young
28:28disaffected children in the slums of
28:30Paris or wherever yeah are online
28:33talking to somebody they think they're
28:35talking to the same person but because
28:38it's a machine it's a team of people who
28:41are who are available at all hours of
28:42the night to talk to this kid whenever
28:44he or she is ready to talk in other
28:47words it's not necessarily somebody who
28:48really cares about not somebody who
28:51cares no it's a machine of people who
28:53are there trying to recruit me yes for
28:57political gains yes if there's quote
28:59unquote evil anywhere that is it it's at
29:02the high levels of these organizations
29:05where people with political motives know
29:07exactly how to manipulate yes broken
29:11people and when I say broken by the way
29:13I mean all of us yes you know dis
29:17disaffected disenchanted yes how to take
29:20that emotion and it'll have a veneer of
29:22I'm helping you but in reality you're
29:26helping me helping me and you're just
29:28Canon f for my battle and that's the
29:30evil that is the evil and that is what I
29:32learned too is that the recruiter versus
29:34all these young kids that are being
29:36recruited there's a huge difference you
29:38know the recruiter is being very
29:40conniving being very manipulative and
29:42knows exactly what he's doing knows
29:44exactly what he's doing and very
29:46consciously I mean they actively
29:49consciously pick people who are
29:51struggling of course if there's one
29:54commonality between both films or both
29:56movements for me CU people seem to think
29:58it's so different and it really it's
30:00it's like I said earlier too it's the
30:02same guy it's just a different window
30:05dressing but it's the same guy different
30:07slogans different flags it is that these
30:10movements cynically and also brilliantly
30:14fulfill basic human needs that we all
30:17have but some of us have ways of
30:20fulfilling that and finding ways to fill
30:22those gaps and some of these kids just
30:25don't how is it that they have the
30:27patients to recruit for hundreds of
30:30hours and for those who claim to care
30:32about their fellow human beings seem not
30:35to have the patience yeah to recruit
30:38them back yeah or prevent them from ever
30:40being recruited in the first place but
30:42rather demand instant change first of
30:45all is that a fair statement I think so
30:47that's the gist of what I've walked away
30:48with having done both films I actually
30:50started out very pessimistic and didn't
30:52really think it was going to get
30:54anywhere but I was still going to try to
30:56see if if I can understand any part of
30:58this but I left both films hopeful very
31:02optimistic and the reason for that was
31:05understanding these sort of systems of
31:07Recruitment and the fact that it is very
31:09very human that it is about human needs
31:12and filling those and the reason that
31:14gives me hope is that we can do
31:16something about I think primarily it has
31:20to do with these recruiters they see
31:23that they can gain from it these people
31:25see the potential they have a lot to
31:27gain I think we say a lot of things but
31:29I don't think we truly believe that our
31:32society gains and benefits from the
31:34Brilliance and the creativity of these
31:36people and what they really have to
31:37offer so I think their Brokenness is
31:41Justified in the sense that we don't
31:44look at them we don't show up for them
31:47when they truly need us when do these
31:49kids matter when they do something
31:51horrible and violent right did we care
31:54about what drove them to that point were
31:56we there
31:57when he was suffering or struggling or
31:59cutting himself or what we weren't there
32:02so I think just because we say things
32:05doesn't mean that we necessarily believe
32:06it these guys don't say it they do it
32:10because they know they stand to gain a
32:11lot from this human resource so there
32:14are two thoughts that strike me in your
32:16idea there one is the unbelievable
32:19discomfort of patience yeah the fact
32:22that I have to be patient for something
32:24that I find upsetting up harm or
32:27actually upsets the fabric of a
32:29functional society that I have to wait
32:32is an unbelievably uncomfortable thought
32:35and the uncertainty of the time
32:37frame the other thing which I find
32:41upsetting is
32:43that though manipulative for political
32:47gain these recruiters are finding those
32:52who desperately seek belonging and
32:54aren't just trying to help the person
32:55they're actually giving them something
32:56to belong to yes exactly what do we
32:59offer them whereas the counter might
33:03want to help them out of humanity quote
33:05unquote yes but I got nothing for you to
33:07join no exactly I mean I'll talk about
33:10civilized society and blah blah blah but
33:11I'm actually not inviting you to be a
33:13part of anything exactly so so it's
33:16actually only half a process and so
33:18until we can offer someone an
33:19alternative place to feel like they
33:21belong and feel safe yes we're going to
33:23lose exactly and they have to feel like
33:26they belong in safe the one thing that I
33:28also noticed with this entire spectrum
33:31of young people is their sincerity in
33:35really wanting to change the world in
33:38really wanting to contribute in really
33:40wanting not just to be a part of a
33:42community but part of a community that
33:44matters and accomplishes something and
33:48yes I think the lack of patience is
33:50astonishing on our part but I think I
33:53always sort of say that you know we are
33:55so good
33:57at articulating what we are
33:59against we're against Nazis we're
34:02against jihadis we're against this we're
34:04against that and very rarely do we
34:06articulate what we're actually for and
34:08that goes to the point that you're
34:09saying what is it that we're actually
34:11offering other than don't do this and
34:12don't do that well what should you do
34:14and Beyond something generic exactly and
34:16there are spiritual needs there are
34:18human needs emotional needs
34:22connection how do we plug into that and
34:25give our young people a way to
34:27contribute and feel fulfilled and this
34:29is not just young people this is all of
34:30us when you look at all these groups
34:32they offer belonging they offer a sense
34:34of purpose they offer an identity and
34:38something affirmative it's not just
34:39being against it's also being for they
34:41are only about what they're for pretty
34:43much only about what they for that's the
34:44difference this is another great irony
34:47right it which is these extremist groups
34:48that we find apparent are for something
34:52yes but those of us who think we're on
34:54the side of quote unquote good we're
34:56against them against them so so again
34:58they're setting the table actually not
35:00us right because the white supremacist
35:03their first sort of few lines of what
35:06they think or or why they're Associated
35:08to this isn't I hate all of you who are
35:11different from me because again it's not
35:13hate driven as much as it looks like it
35:16is they are doing it because they are
35:18preserving a way of life they are
35:21preserving and supporting and working
35:23for their people they are for that the
35:25jihadis are working to protect and do
35:28something about the suffering and
35:30struggling Muslims in all different
35:32lands but you realize you raise a very
35:33uncomfortable observation here which is
35:36we're sitting in a black lives matter
35:38movement yeah of which a large part of
35:41the definition is anti-racist it's
35:45against but is it it's a question I'm
35:46raising it is a question I am an
35:49anti-racist is that for is that against
35:52okay so I have spent a lot of time in
35:54the last few months or especially since
35:56the killing of George Floyd traveling
35:57around America and especially actually
35:59in Minneapolis bizarrely the sense that
36:02I get from all the black lives matter
36:04activist that I've spoken to and been
36:05around is not what they're against it's
36:09the impression I get and I suspect it is
36:12why hopefully this time this movement is
36:14going to make even more strides than it
36:17has done in the past is that it is
36:19articulating a picture of the future
36:22that actually includes everybody it is
36:24about dignity it is about equality it is
36:27about recognizing the full Humanity of
36:29everybody so to me from everything that
36:31I've understood it is about unity and it
36:34is about us coming together for
36:37something that is better something that
36:39is more just something that is for all
36:42of us so to me that is something that is
36:45for something not just against you know
36:48language is a tricky thing yes and words
36:51have power yeah and when we have the
36:54words of anti or against it reinforces
36:57the division rather than promoting the
37:00solution yeah and I do think that that
37:03is a trap that you know a lot of us fall
37:05into when it comes to a wide variety of
37:08issues that are very important but just
37:11because we sort of miscommunicate the
37:13actual essence of it and it's also why
37:15every time I speak about extremism
37:17whether it's the Jihadi end or the other
37:18end or gang violence for that matter I
37:21do try to keep it as clear and as human
37:24as possible because that's actually
37:26really all it is I find that academics
37:28and people that research this and have
37:30written hundreds of books about these
37:31types of issues for far longer than I've
37:33been around just over complicated and
37:36make it something it's one of the
37:37reasons why I wanted to make both films
37:39is I wanted to get to the human beings
37:41and not just stay sort of in these
37:43abstract theories and these big big
37:45words that makes you feel hopeless it
37:48makes you feel there's nothing there to
37:50be done and certainly nothing for you to
37:52do in in that picture and to me that
37:55takes all power all solution everything
37:57away from all of this whereas we can
38:00actually all do something about it I'm
38:03reminded of a quote by James Carville
38:05the Democratic operative who said the
38:08difference between Republicans and
38:09Democrats is Republicans want to win and
38:11Democrats want to be
38:13right wow yeah and I'm struck by the way
38:16you talk about the gentleman who ran the
38:18white supremacist organization talking
38:20about it doesn't matter whether he's put
38:22in a corner and had a microphone turned
38:24off or whether he gets to dominate he
38:26wins
38:27he thinks about it in binary form yeah
38:30right yeah whereas on the left it's I'm
38:33going to prove to you that you're wrong
38:35yeah yeah so he doesn't actually show up
38:37to be right or wrong he shows up to win
38:39exactly exactly which I find very
38:42interesting whereas on the left they
38:44show up to be right yeah and it's very
38:47interesting how two people are going to
38:49have now have a productive conversation
38:51where one wants to win and one wants to
38:53be right good luck with that yeah and
38:55and both walk off with okay I got my
38:58part we didn't really talk right I got
39:00to State my points and my talking points
39:02and you get to State your talking points
39:04right and then we shake hands and we go
39:06or we go off in a huff and we both go
39:08back to our constituents and say did it
39:10didn't I do great mission accomplished
39:12did you see me exactly did you see the
39:14points I scored exactly one scores
39:17points and one makes points exactly
39:19exactly and so what's accomplished
39:21nothing Zippo you know you are one of
39:24the best listeners in the
39:27world I don't know okay for a Muslim
39:30woman to go and spend time with jihadis
39:33and white supremacists and listen yeah
39:36it's not easy so tell us some of the
39:39things that you've learned that we can
39:40actually apply like how do I listen to
39:44someone I have a visceral reaction to I
39:47may have judgment and disgust and anger
39:51how do I listen well you first have to
39:54figure out why you're wanting to have
39:56that encounter for me the reason I
39:58listened the reason that was the choice
40:02is I want to understand them so that we
40:03can do better at countering them and
40:06having fewer of them around right and we
40:10can't do that until we can understand
40:12what makes them actually tick so how you
40:14listen is uncomfortable there's no two
40:17ways about it if you're going to sit
40:19with somebody that you have a viscerally
40:21just a negative reaction to if you're
40:24wanting to listen because you're trying
40:25to understand what I would suggest is
40:28the way it's been for me is I sit there
40:30and I allow for people to finish I allow
40:32for people to empty whatever the stuff
40:36is and once they've emptied it's kind of
40:39like a rag has been rung and finally
40:42then you can go okay done now we can
40:44really speak it takes time there's that
40:47patience again yeah unfortunately
40:50patience has to be a part of it I think
40:52you have to know why you're doing it I
40:55you just have to sit in your disc
40:56Comfort I'm sorry it was ugly for me it
40:58was very uncomfortable for me and
41:01anytime I would start feeling frustrated
41:03or annoyed or angry I would just have to
41:06keep that in check because again if I
41:09was to lash out I felt in my mind anyway
41:13at the time that I'm going to hand them
41:15what they're looking for they want me to
41:17come off kind of Center they want me to
41:19lose my balance and the minute I do that
41:22it's back to them again they get to
41:24Define how this is going to go
41:26and then the understanding part we won't
41:28get to that because we'll just get
41:29frustrated and and and I've lost it I
41:32think if we don't listen then we don't
41:34understand what makes somebody tick we
41:36don't understand what value they
41:37actually can bring to you and what
41:39learning they can actually bring to you
41:41there's no reason somebody else is going
41:43to listen to you if you're not willing
41:45to listen first so I think in order to
41:47build a relationship of trust and build
41:50a relationship that's based on Dignity
41:52and respect somebody has to make that
41:55gesture first
41:56and and it's most likely not going to
41:58come from the Neo-Nazi first
42:01right so somebody has to take that step
42:05and that's called leadership yeah it's
42:07not the one who's at the top of the
42:08organization it's the one who goes first
42:11yeah the one who goes first towards the
42:13danger the one who does the
42:14uncomfortable thing first but that's
42:16also the person that that stands to gain
42:18the most because the amount of insight
42:20that you get from that the amount of
42:21connection that you get from that and
42:23the amount of value if you want to put
42:25it in those terms that gain from that
42:27and the trust and the Loyalty that you
42:29build with somebody making people
42:32feel like they matter making people feel
42:37heard and seen and valued we all want
42:41that it's not just Nazis or jihadis we
42:44all want that everybody wants to be
42:46treated with dignity and that's the one
42:49thing that was conscious for me with all
42:52of these guys is just because they
42:54dehumanize me I'm not going to allow
42:57them to put me in a corner where I feel
42:59forced to dehumanize them or I feel
43:02compelled to dehumanize them because if
43:04I do that what's the difference and
43:06what's the point it's very easy to
43:09dehumanize them it's very satisfying to
43:12also I'm right and just look at them and
43:14listen to their horrible hor it feels
43:17great but what's after that we have to
43:21get to the solutions we have to coexist
43:23we have to coexist even with people like
43:25this
43:26so how do we do that are those gestures
43:29going to come from them or from
43:30everybody else and I understand you know
43:33right now a lot of people feel very
43:35angry on all sides and very frustrated
43:38and people have had enough but you're
43:40going to have to have these
43:41conversations going to have to listen
43:43going to have to be there through the
43:44discomfort you have to yeah otherwise we
43:47don't get past it otherwi the the needle
43:49just you know remains stuck here and the
43:52anger is the indication of the beginning
43:54not the end exactly and it will continue
43:57to get more angry and it will continue
43:59to get more violent the anger is the
44:01start of something and now we have the
44:02choice of where we want to go with it
44:04exactly and you can actually diffuse the
44:07anger fairly easily but you have to want
44:10to and you have to sincerely want to and
44:13that's hard so it should be one of the
44:16sort of strategies that we apply towards
44:18the challenges that we're faced with and
44:20then there's all the other systemic
44:22shifts that have to happen the political
44:24lobbying that has to happen the
44:25Grassroots organizing that has to happen
44:27so there's a myriad of solutions that
44:28have to be deployed in this current
44:30environment and having dialogue and
44:33listening is just one and engaging with
44:36the other engaging with your enemy
44:38that's one aspect of it then let's also
44:42see what we can gather in terms of
44:43information from those people who do go
44:45out into the trenches and engage but you
44:49learn about yourself I mean what to me
44:51has been extraordinary about all of this
44:53is that I thought I'm going to learn
44:55about them but at the end of it I learn
44:57more about myself actually and learn
45:01more about what kind of human being do I
45:02want to be here's some of the things
45:04that I've learned from talking to you
45:06one patience is a
45:10yeah I mean like oh you know like
45:16I have to keep doing this uncomfortable
45:17thing do I have to just when will it end
45:21I don't know I have to just keep doing
45:22it you know it's like H you know yeah
45:25anything worthwhile is difficult and
45:27requires patience whether it's getting
45:28healthy getting in shape you know it's a
45:31lot of hard work and it's a lot of
45:32patience and it's more about process yes
45:34than it is about an event yes but you do
45:38all these things because you want to and
45:39because you actually care so you have to
45:41care right and though there may be
45:44events protests activism they're moments
45:47they're parts of the process yes the
45:50other thing that I find really fantastic
45:53and astonishing is it's fine and good to
45:57listen and offer empathy but it has to
45:59be followed up with giving someone a
46:01place to go yeah it's not enough to say
46:04don't worry your life matters I have to
46:06be willing to let you into my home I
46:09have to give you a safe place to sleep
46:11that belonging is not enough to help
46:12someone build their self-confidence they
46:15have to have a place to go yeah and
46:18that's difficult
46:21yes and it doesn't have to be a physical
46:23place I assume or maybe it is
46:26sometimes but no not really it's more
46:28what do you replace that Gap with the
46:31club it needs a new club exactly exactly
46:33so what are you for so what do you sign
46:35up to instead of that what takes that
46:38place and there has to be and I've heard
46:40this theme in all of the work that I've
46:42done you pointed it love love is the
46:46thing yes it's the only thing it's the
46:48only thing it really is and the
46:50empathetic listening is less about quote
46:52unquote what makes them tick yeah but
46:55it's trying to find out what they love
46:57yeah because only love would make you
47:00sacrifice parents sacrifice for their
47:02children we would sacrifice our lives
47:05for our children because we love them we
47:06know that we fall in love because we now
47:09find ourselves at the point where we
47:11would willingly sacrifice our own
47:12interests for the good of another human
47:14being even in a romantic relationship
47:16that we discover love when we discover
47:18the willingness to sacrifice and I know
47:21from my work with the military very few
47:24if any folks in the armed service is
47:26Rush towards the sound of a gun for God
47:29and Country yeah it's person to the left
47:31and person to the right and it's and
47:33it's love even if they don't like them
47:35it's love of the people to the left and
47:38the people to the right that they're so
47:40willing to sacrifice and then the honor
47:41is bestowed that they helped Advance the
47:43movement if that happens yeah and I find
47:46this incredibly hard and such a a
47:50worthwhile practice that for me to learn
47:53true empathetic listening and you went
47:54to the extremes which is why you're such
47:56a good case study of what empathetic
47:58listening looks like you know this is a
47:59skill that we can we can use on a daily
48:01basis with other people but if you've
48:03learned to listen to a Jihadi or a white
48:06supremacist or to toxic
48:09masculinity yeah not putting aside any
48:12of your own feelings or judgments that's
48:14what I find so interesting you actually
48:15are listening sometimes with judgment
48:17yeah yeah but it's the sincere desire to
48:22understand the thing they love and then
48:26and as you described so beautifully
48:28allow the towel to be rung allow the the
48:30bucket to be emptied and only at the
48:32point of the empty bucket when they've
48:34had the chance to say it all now a
48:37conversation can start yeah the
48:39listening allows for the platform to
48:41begin there can be no conversation until
48:44there is listening first extreme
48:47listening extreme listening and this
48:50word love that you're saying I always
48:53say that and most people roll their eyes
48:56or shrug their shoulders a little bit
48:57and go isn't that nice and mushy of you
48:59to use that word and it's not nice and
49:01mushy it's very
49:03practical it's very fruitful it's very
49:07strategic and it is at the center of
49:10everything everything I know this for a
49:13fact now I used to feel it and felt that
49:17that would be true but I know it for a
49:19fact I have sat with some of the worst
49:21of the worst quote unquote people people
49:24who have done horrific things convicted
49:27terrorists all sorts of people and
49:29really it all always comes back to love
49:32and the second they sense any feeling
49:36that even resembles that from you they
49:39are willing to sit there in that
49:42discomfort with you they are willing to
49:44sit there and put their entire life in
49:47your hands I mean I've sat with some of
49:48these guys and some of the things that
49:50they've shared with me and put in my
49:51hands even I've sat there going
49:53shouldn't tell me this you really
49:55shouldn't tell me me this you know
49:57because whatever I don't know I can't
49:59include so don't they're like no I trust
50:01you and so without love truly there is
50:05nothing truly it's not hate it's love
50:09did you learn in all of this to love
50:11your enemy yes I mean I've become
50:13friends with many of them I'm in touch
50:15with many of them many of them will
50:17probably stay with me till I take my
50:19last breath or they do yeah I have
50:23learned to do that one of them
50:26was being kicked out of the University
50:28that he went to because they found out
50:29what he does and he also had the swastic
50:31unsh the big gun and stuff like that and
50:33I wrote to them and I said look you have
50:36to give him a chance you cannot give up
50:39on people he really needs to be in a
50:41place of learning he really needs this
50:44he's not going to shoot up the school
50:46but he might if he's got nothing Les
50:48left to live for we cannot give up on
50:50each other we cannot give up on people
50:52and most of these people have given up
50:54on themselves most of these people have
50:56given up on us and so I refuse to do
50:59that I refuse to do it doesn't matter
51:01how far gone somebody is doesn't matter
51:04how ugly somebody's behavior is I will
51:07try to stick it out for as long as I can
51:09bear it because that's what's needed you
51:12know and that's what we would need
51:13that's what you and I would need when we
51:15break that's what we need is that
51:17somebody doesn't give up on us somebody
51:19doesn't turn their back on us right
51:21diakon you are an inspiration and as you
51:25always do in all your work we entered a
51:28dark place and came out to the light and
51:32found the
51:33light I'm so grateful thank you so so
51:35much thank you I'm very grateful thank
51:37you so
51:38[Music]
51:42much if you enjoyed this podcast and
51:45you'd like to hear more please subscribe
51:47wherever you like to listen to
51:49podcasts until then take care of
51:51yourself take care of each
51:54other

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