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Exposing the Gender Empathy Gap - Dr. Warren Farrell — Transcript

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0:00Dr. Warren Farrell, welcome to the Next
0:02Generation. Thank you. I'm really
0:04looking forward to talking with you. I
0:05loved meeting you at the ARC, the
0:07Alliance for Responsible Citizenship in
0:08London.
0:10What is the male selfworth paradox?
0:15Well, and actually, it's not so much a
0:18male selfworth paradox anymore. Men's
0:20self-worth is decreasing increasingly
0:23and um and the men are increasingly
0:27feeling you know as a result of
0:29thousands of things but um hashtagme too
0:32um was only from the women's
0:34perspective. So men heard all the ways
0:37that women were hurt were suffering and
0:40most men were really responsive to you
0:43know wanting to protect women and not
0:45wanting women to be hurt. Um, and most
0:48men had women in their lives, whether it
0:50was their sisters, their mothers, their
0:52their girlfriends, um, sometimes their
0:54daughters, uh, that told stories of
0:57being really, um, jeopardized or put in
1:00embarrassing or awkward positions from
1:02their perspective by men. And so there
1:04were men's hearts opened up to to women.
1:08But what didn't happen is a male um,
1:11hashtagmeto became a monologue, not a
1:13dialogue. It needed to be a dialogue
1:16because every young male that I know or
1:20middle-aged and older male particularly,
1:22the older you got, the more the male was
1:24likely to also have had an experience of
1:27maybe, let's say, being um married and
1:30being um having children and then um
1:33realizing that he and his wife um needed
1:36to get a divorce for whatever reasons
1:38and then suddenly finding himself in um
1:41a custody battle. And often times um the
1:45judge um feeling that the woman has the
1:48right to the children while the man has
1:49to fight for the children. And so the
1:52man often times um lost his wife and his
1:56children um in the custody battle and
1:58was depleted of money, depleted of um of
2:02of a of a sense of purpose, depleted of
2:05love, and often was lonely and isolated.
2:08And it's one of the reasons why men are
2:10eight times as likely during custody
2:12battles to uh commit suicide than their
2:14female counterparts in those custody
2:16battles. And these are stories that you
2:19know that most men never heard of. And
2:21you know the fact that men uh boy young
2:24boys today particularly boys that are
2:26dad deprived that is boys that are
2:28raised without their biological dad are
2:30far far more likely than um their female
2:33counterparts to drop out of high school.
2:36uh far more likely to um if they do get
2:38into college to drop out while they're
2:40in college. And so females today are
2:44about
2:4460% a little bit more than 60% of the
2:48female um college graduates. And whereas
2:51boys are about 40% of the female college
2:54graduate and that's that is been going
2:56up year after year. So it's predicted
2:59that pretty soon it'll be twothirds of
3:01people who graduate from college will be
3:03women. Um, but they're also, especially
3:05dad-deprived boys, are far more likely
3:07to commit suicide. Uh, far more likely
3:10to be um in in drug overdose mode, to
3:13die from drug overdoses, to be addicted
3:16to porn, to be addicted to, uh, video
3:19games, and to have, you know, problems
3:21on more than 55 different areas of
3:24measurement uh, than their female
3:26counterparts are or than they used to
3:29be. boys used to be. Previously, for
3:31example, each generation, boys IQ's used
3:35to go, boys and girls IQs used to go up
3:3810 points. Now, recently, boys IQs have
3:42dropped. Um, boys sperm counts have
3:45dropped by 60% since the
3:471960s. And so, um, and you know, all of
3:51this is not just a boy's issue, it's a
3:54woman's issue as well. If a if a if a
3:56boy's and male's sperm counts drop, uh
3:59that means unhealthy children, the
4:01children include female children. And so
4:04one of the things I stress in in the boy
4:06crisis book is that, you know, that boys
4:08issues are also girls issues, men's
4:11issues are also women's issues.
4:15Well, I want to get into all of these
4:17staggering points that you're making,
4:19especially about fatherlessness. As
4:21someone who was born in London where now
4:23if you reach the age of 15, you have
4:25about a 50% chance of living with just
4:28one parent most of the time. So divorce
4:31is rife in my generation or at least
4:34divorced parents and I'm sure it's going
4:36to be even more rife once we become
4:37parents unless we turn things around.
4:40It's just sort of accepted as this thing
4:43that happens and we don't think about
4:45the consequences or maybe subconsciously
4:48we don't want to think about the
4:49consequences because it's such a big
4:51ship to turn around that we'd almost
4:53rather just bury all of these crazy
4:56insights under the rug. So, I I want to
4:58get on to fatherlessness and how
5:00important fathers are. But first, from
5:04what I gather, what you're alluding to
5:06here at the start is is essentially a
5:08gender empathy gap that we've got going
5:10on. Why does that exist? Well, the
5:13gender empathy gap has always gone on.
5:15It's just been intensified recently. So,
5:17for example, um boys historically
5:20speaking, uh were trained to increase
5:23their self-worth to the degree to which
5:26they were willing to be disposable.
5:29disposable in war or disposable in the
5:32workplace. So every generation had its
5:34war and or more than one war and in each
5:38generation in the United States um as a
5:40sort of metaphor um Uncle Sam said you
5:44know we need you to join the armed
5:46services to make sure Hitler does not um
5:49attack and invade the United States and
5:51other countries. And so every boy was
5:54told that he was needed and so he was
5:57needed to kill and be killed. Um and as
6:00we know now um boys who men young men
6:02who kill are you know experience an
6:05enormous amount of PTSD um of having
6:09having killed is not as traumatic as
6:13being killed but it's certainly is close
6:15to as traumatic your essence your spirit
6:17your psyche is killed. Um, and so boys,
6:21you know, boys saw that picture on the
6:24mantle in their home of Uncle Joe and he
6:26had joined the Marines. And you know,
6:28he's he the boy 15year-old, 14 years
6:31old, is being criticized by dad and mom
6:34for this and that. But Uncle Joe is
6:36always being talked about as the hero.
6:38And so he says to himself, you know, I
6:41if I join the Marines also or the um,
6:44you know, the armed services in some
6:45way, I too can be looked at as a hero.
6:48And so what that that feeling of I can
6:51be a hero is basically a social bribe to
6:55be willing to be disposable to be
6:57disposable in war or in disposable in
6:59the workplace. In the workplace 93% of
7:02the people who are killed in hazardous
7:04jobs are males. Um in the United States
7:07one construction worker dies every
7:09single workday hour.
7:12um almost all the hazardous jobs like
7:14logging and um cross-country um
7:17trucking. Uh those are all those are all
7:20um jobs that are almost completely male
7:22jobs. And so um male and males learn
7:26that. And then if you're if you want to
7:28earn a living um but not be in a
7:31hazardous profession, uh you often you
7:33know try to time um climb to the top of
7:36the ladder of a corporation. And so um
7:41and that often times leads to um what
7:44the Japanese call kroshi k a r o s h i
7:47which means death from at the desk or
7:49death from overwork. And in Japan and in
7:52Japan they have a game called kroshi.
7:55And um and each person gets a kroshi
7:57figure. And as they win a round of the
8:00game they advance on the kroshi ladder.
8:03um they go up and up the hierarchy until
8:05the one one person who is the quote
8:08winner um gets to the top first and the
8:11winner's reward is to commit suicide.
8:14Not literally, but in the game. And why
8:17is that? Because he recognizes that the
8:19that what he's gotten to the top of is
8:23not the latter of being a human being,
8:25but the latter of being a human doing an
8:28unbecome an unbecoming a human being.
8:32And so the the Japanese get this, but
8:35even though they get it, they still do
8:38it. And um and so these are some of the
8:41the things that we have to re-examine.
8:43This is one of the reasons there's an
8:45empathy gap because if you are a parent
8:48and you um know that your life that you
8:51that your country that your life as a
8:53woman is going to be saved by that man
8:56being willing to be disposable um or
8:59your or your child being willing to be
9:01disposable. You have a a tear in your
9:04heart about your child. On the one hand,
9:06you want him to be a hero and join the
9:08Marines or, you know, go off and be you
9:11proud of him or get to the top of a
9:13corporation and be proud of him. Um, but
9:15on the other hand, you don't want him to
9:17die. Uh, whereas for women, um, we we
9:21want our daughters to be protected. And
9:23so there's a 100%
9:25um empathy for our daughters and a
9:28mixture of empathy um even as we're
9:31persuading our boys um to or h proud of
9:35our boys for playing rugby or playing
9:37football or doing things that are likely
9:39to create a a spinal cord injury or a
9:42brain damage for life. You talk about
9:45calling a man a hero when he dies in war
9:47so we may survive is not male privilege
9:49but male sacrifice. It creates the male
9:52selfworth paradox. A boy learns to value
9:55himself by not valuing himself. You've
9:58also spoken about how a woman's role is
10:02natural and how a man's job is societal.
10:06How do you navigate between that whilst
10:10also trying to be a human being rather
10:13than a human doing when maybe a man's
10:15societal role can partly consist of
10:18doing, especially with the risk of
10:20sounding like a bigot to some some
10:22people in the audience? Men are
10:24generally stronger and bigger and more
10:26muscular and their skeletal frames are
10:28uh bigger in size. So So they're more
10:30tailored towards doing these physical
10:32jobs. How do you balance doing with
10:34being? Yes. Well, first of all, I think
10:37I think the the the right approach is
10:40to, you know, offer the doing as an
10:43option, but be aware of the degree to
10:46which we um create social bribes just
10:50for the doing. um asking our you asking
10:53our our boys and our girls to um to to
10:57take advantage of the enormous privilege
10:59that we have to not have to just focus
11:01on survival but to be able to ask
11:04ourselves what do we wish to do. Um, so
11:07you know when when I first started to
11:09realize that I had a I think a gift for
11:11writing or my parents thought I did uh
11:14my father you know warned me this is you
11:16know when I was in um high school or
11:18college I forget which and my father
11:20said you know um you know you're a good
11:23writer Warren but just um be aware that
11:25only one out of a hundred um writers
11:29ever find a publisher and if you can't
11:31find a publisher you'll never find a
11:33wife. Um and so you um and and that was
11:37sort of the theme that you know that
11:39that young boys who were following
11:41passions whether it was a passion to
11:43become an a writer, an artist, an actor,
11:46a musician um or an elementary school
11:49teacher. Uh what we learned as boys is
11:52um that was fine to pursue that type of
11:55passion. But you know women who saw that
11:58you were working as a musician or as a
12:01writer or as an artist um but as an
12:04actor you were basically being called
12:06waiter uh they you know women didn't
12:08compete to marry waiters uh they
12:11competed to marry um you know those CEOs
12:14or you know the men that were human
12:16doings and so um and so we've evolved
12:20into two different worlds now. the
12:22female world is, you know, um, you know,
12:25you go girl, you be what you want to be.
12:27Uh, you find your passion, you pursue
12:30it. Um, and often oftenimes in the
12:33process, a woman um who is wants to be
12:36an artist or an actress or a writer or a
12:38musician uh will um look for marrying a
12:42man who is is a rock economically and
12:45who can support her um taking risks. Um
12:48whereas men um who um who want to do
12:52that they they tend to have a different
12:54um life path um they pursue being an
12:57artist or a writer until the first child
13:01comes. When the first child comes that
13:04they oftenimes realize that as an
13:06elementary school teacher I won't make
13:08very much money. not enough money to be
13:10able to buy a home and move into a
13:12neighborhood where there's an optimal
13:14school district where that can give my
13:16daughter or son opportunities that I've
13:19never had. So, they quit being I
13:21remember I I've formed some 300 men's
13:23groups and um and male after male in my
13:27men's group, you know, said some version
13:29of, you know, I remember one guy saying
13:32um you know, I was just passionate as an
13:34elementary school teacher. I love kids.
13:36I love teaching and seeing them grow in
13:39one year was just um that I had them was
13:42just uh you know just touched my heart
13:44and made me feel so useful. Um but then
13:48we had our first um child and I wanted
13:51to make sure that um that we had a
13:53decent home and a decent neighborhood
13:55and a decent school district and you
13:56know they and um so I realized I had to
13:59give up my job and um become um an
14:02assistant principal and then a principal
14:04and then I became a superintendent of
14:05schools and he would say in the men's
14:08group, you know, there's nothing I hate
14:10more than uh than ad than administrative
14:13stuff and battles between, you know, um
14:17parents and teachers and um and so on.
14:20Um but I did that because I you know I
14:23made two or three times as much money as
14:25a superintendent of schools as I did as
14:27an elementary school teacher and that um
14:29provided for my family. But then I
14:31didn't like it when the feminist
14:33movement was saying listen you know u
14:35even though women men are the minority
14:38of people in in elementary schools uh
14:41they're the majority of people in as
14:43superintendent and as principles this
14:46just goes to show you that men dominate
14:48and they take over and they have power
14:50but he said I didn't feel I had power I
14:52feel I had oblig male oblig obligation
14:55um not power um and so what men have
14:58often learned to do is is is to think of
15:01power as feeling obligated to earn money
15:04that somebody else spends while they die
15:07sooner. And I think that's a terrible
15:09definition of power.
15:11You speak about how time trumps dime and
15:15how there's this massive meta study of
15:1763 different analyses and they all
15:20concluded or the minor majority um
15:23concluded that the quality of time was
15:25important more important than the
15:26quantity of dime. And I think that's an
15:29important
15:30perspective shifter that not many people
15:33ever even think about.
15:36Yes. Harvard did an 80 some odd year
15:38longitudinal study which um means uh
15:41they've been doing that study for about
15:42as long as I've been alive. And um and
15:45what they concluded was that um once um
15:48a family in the United States now um so
15:52translate this to the UK uh makes about
15:5560 to
15:56$75,000 per year. So that would be about
16:00um 57 to 70,000 in British pounds. uh
16:05would be um uh that that they um that
16:09the
16:10happiness after that the first that
16:14first amount of money um allowed people
16:17to master survival enough um to so that
16:20they didn't have to worry about putting
16:21bread on the table so to speak. Um but
16:24after that um the amount of happiness
16:27came from an increase in not in the
16:30amount of time with your children not
16:33the amount of dimes you produced. Um and
16:36so that's the that that's why the time
16:38is the time of a parent with children
16:41particularly um the time of of fathers
16:44who are often times the primary bread
16:46winner um even today um with their
16:50children are uh is more important the
16:53the time is more important than the dime
16:55once that first um 60 70,000 hours
16:58depending on where you live in the UK
17:00and whether you live in the United
17:01States uh is taken care of for your
17:03family M well this relates to something
17:06I've been thinking about a lot recently
17:09especially in relation to my generation
17:11growing up now and that's ignoring the
17:15shorterterm fluctuations in the economy
17:17whatever has been unfolding the last few
17:18years if you look at the bigger picture
17:21which is so important to do in the last
17:23century objectively our lives are so
17:27much freer so much better we've had the
17:30Civil Rights Act in 1964 we've got
17:33access to water and food and we've got
17:36AC and we've got
17:38heating. Yet with all of that, we've got
17:42this crisis of meaning unfolding,
17:45especially in young men. And yes,
17:51I think this is a very subjective thing
17:54to even discuss, but my take on this is
17:57that you reach a certain point, and this
18:00is backed by what you're saying. you
18:01reach a certain point of material
18:03comfort where you're no longer worried
18:06about the basics to survive and then I
18:09guess reminiscent to something like the
18:11Maslo's hierarchy of needs or whatever
18:14you unlock these other things that you
18:17can finally think about and that's what
18:19we've done we've sort of used a
18:22battering ram to to batter down this
18:24gate of purpose and when we're not
18:28distracted by chasing survival and
18:31getting our purpose from that, we're
18:33able to think about things like the
18:35meaning of life and why we really are
18:37here. So there's this sort of paradox of
18:42success going on where even though our
18:45lives materially and objectively on
18:47every single metric have gotten better
18:49across the West in the last century,
18:52we're subjectively perceiving that we're
18:54living worse and less meaningful lives.
18:57You you're exactly right. That's exactly
18:59what I talk about in the boy crisis book
19:01and and and it's a little bit complex be
19:04well first of all let's let's reinforce
19:07exactly what you were saying which is
19:08that um the people who are complaining
19:12um when people are focused on survival
19:15they're just focused on survival they're
19:17not asking what's your passion project
19:20uh what do you really want to do in your
19:22heart because most of the things that
19:24are very
19:26fulfilling pay less
19:29economically because the more fulfilling
19:32a career, the more likely a large number
19:36of people are likely to compete for a
19:38small number of positions. There are
19:41millions and millions of people in Los
19:43Angeles who are want who are wanting to
19:46be an actor um but who are called
19:49waiter. Uh there are, you know, there
19:51are millions of people who want to be a
19:54musician, an artist, a writer. Um but
19:57like my father said, you know, only
19:58about one out of a hundred of the
20:00writers, you know, find a publisher. And
20:02if you can't find a publisher, you won't
20:04you still won't find a a wife in the
20:07case of men at least. Um and so this is
20:10an enormous amount of um
20:13of focus. So in the old days we used to
20:16focus on you know on survival and that
20:19and if we if we manage to do that we
20:22were proud of ourselves but today in
20:26most middle and upper middle class
20:28families in developed nations in those
20:31areas developed nations middle and upper
20:33middle class families the focus is much
20:36more for the female on what do I want to
20:39do u the focus for the male is much more
20:43complex for a few reasons. First, a much
20:47higher um percentage of males are
20:49affected negatively by not having a lot
20:53of father involvement. So, if um so when
20:56I when I first submitted the uh proposal
20:59for the boy crisis to my publisher, I
21:01had 10 causes of the boy crisis outlined
21:04that I was going to explore and and I
21:07called them, you know, the causes of the
21:08boy crisis. But as I investigated each
21:11of those quote causes, I realized that
21:14most of those causes were not causes but
21:16contributors and the only one that rose
21:19to the level of being able to
21:20legitimately be called called a cause of
21:23the boy crisis was dad deprivation.
21:27So among dad deprived boys, those boys
21:31are far more likely to drop out of high
21:33school, to have um you know to be
21:36addicted to porn, to to have no to to
21:38not have any sense of discipline. Um and
21:42so the the the one of the roles of
21:44fathers um is first of all it's gives
21:47the boy a role model of how do you how
21:49do you become a man? uh that's that that
21:52that gives love and also gives
21:55discipline to your children and um dads
21:58do an enormous amount that neither that
22:01moms don't recognize but also that dads
22:04don't recognize. So for example, most
22:06fathers don't
22:08real to the moms. Um you know I want to
22:12rough house with the kids because when I
22:13rough house with the kids it it
22:16increases their ability to be
22:17empathetic.
22:19Now, roughousing, you know, and like the
22:22father would never say that. Almost no
22:25father knows that. Um, but here's here's
22:28the dynamic that produces the data that
22:30shows u that, you know, the kids that
22:33rough house with their dad um are likely
22:35to be more empathetic. Let's say the uh
22:37father um has three kids and throws them
22:41on the on the couch and says, "Okay,
22:43your job is to jump on my back and pin
22:45me down before I pin the three of you
22:47down." Okay, Dad. we're all, you know,
22:49we're all into it. Mom is looking on
22:52from a distance and saying, "Oh my god,
22:53I feel like I have just one more child
22:54to monitor here." And um and the but
22:58then the dad goes ahead and um tries to
23:00pin down the three kids, but in the
23:02process, you know, the the mother is
23:03thinking to herself, you know, I'm I'm
23:05afraid that somebody's going to get
23:06hurt. And you know, the mom's about 99%
23:09likely to be right. Uh and somebody
23:12sooner or later gets hurt. Um and then
23:14the the mother feels guilty. She didn't
23:16even get more she didn't get involved to
23:18stop the father from doing that to begin
23:19with. Um but she feels all right now the
23:22dad will learn and he won't do this
23:23again in the future. But instead dad
23:26says okay you know Jane um you know um
23:29or Jimmy you put your um your elbow in
23:32Jane's eyes like that and you hurt Jane
23:35and if you do that again that'll be the
23:37end of the roughousing. Um and mom goes
23:40what? You don't you're you're giving
23:41them another chance to do more
23:43roughousing and get hurt again. they're
23:45just going to go and get hurt again. And
23:47sure enough, mom's right again. U but
23:49this time, dad is more likely to say,
23:52"Okay, um I warned you and you ignored
23:57me, so there's no more roughousing
23:59tonight. Someday during the week, maybe
24:02later in the week, if you're do your
24:04homework and do a lot of, you know,
24:05these things, we'll maybe continue it,
24:07but no, nothing more tonight." Now, and
24:10their mom goes, "What? You This is twice
24:12now in a row. the somebody's gotten hurt
24:14and you're asking you're telling them
24:15that you're going to do this again. Um
24:18and but it's that second time around
24:20that the dad is more likely to say very
24:23likely to say something like um okay um
24:26you know remember the remember the rule
24:28here. You lose um you you hurt each
24:32other and that's the end of the
24:33roughousing. No questions asked. And now
24:37the kids are really considering what
24:40their sister and brother's feelings are
24:42and needs are and how not to hurt them
24:45because they know that if somebody does
24:47get hurt, they're going to lose their
24:49treat. They're going to lose their
24:50roughousing. And so dad and dad is
24:54willing and then so once dad gives them
24:57a warning, the great majority of dads
24:59are will then say that's it. It's over.
25:03And they'll not they won't just set
25:05boundaries. Dads don't, but they're more
25:07likely to enforce boundaries than moms
25:10are. They don't repeat the same warning
25:12over and over again. As a result, the
25:14kids learn that they ha that they need
25:17to do what what they have to do um in
25:21order to get what they want. That is
25:22they learn postpone gratification. They
25:26learn that postpone gratification not
25:28because a boundary is suggested or made
25:32but because that boundary is enforced
25:34and the child knows it will lose by not
25:37having postpone gratification. It will
25:39lose what it really wants to have.
25:41Whereas mom is more likely to repeat the
25:43same thing again and again and maybe
25:46with a a higher voice each time. Um but
25:49the kids usually feel they can
25:51manipulate their way um out out of out
25:54of it being enforced and therefore they
25:57tend to to lose respect for mom but they
26:00tend to do things that the dad tends
26:02them to tends to um tells them to do
26:05which is very frustrating for moms
26:07because moms are looking at the
26:08situation and say I told the kids the
26:10same thing u but they didn't pay
26:12attention to me why are they paying
26:14attention to dad and you know here the
26:16mom is so totally devoted and caring
26:19But at the same time, the kids are
26:20paying attention to dad to a greater
26:22degree, which is very frustrating for
26:23the mom. But it's also what teaches kids
26:27postpone gratification, which is the
26:29biggest predictor of success or failure.
26:32And so once the kids learn that postpone
26:34gratification, they're more likely to do
26:36better in school and therefore more for
26:39more likely to have the respective
26:40peers. They're more likely to do better
26:42in sports. they're more likely to do
26:44better in anything that requires
26:46postponing gratification or discipline.
26:48And so um and and then once they do
26:52better in sports and in school u the
26:54girls are much more interested in dating
26:56them if they're heterosexual boys. And
26:58so the um those kids are um likely to
27:03feel better about themselves and feel
27:05better about their relationship with
27:06girls and and and much more likely to
27:09succeed in school uh because they know
27:11how to do their homework and finish it
27:12and not know not get caught up in a
27:14video games in the process. And so this
27:17is what leads to um you know 93% of our
27:21prisoners in the US and 94% of the
27:23prisoners in the UK um being um dad
27:26deprived um boys and um they're
27:29oftentimes u ones that uh ones and
27:33suicide is more predicted boys
27:36committing suicide is more predicted by
27:39a lack of father involvement than any
27:41other single variable. M I would
27:44completely back gratification
27:46postponement lessons in school. Swapping
27:49something else out. I completely see how
27:52you know the marshmallow test is the
27:55thing that transcends over all of life.
27:58And it sounds like this fancy
28:00inaccessible term, but actually really
28:03all delayed gratification is is the
28:06ability to grapple with your emotions
28:09and your animal instincts that we've
28:11evolved to have. uh to have for survival
28:15and to be able to see the bigger picture
28:18always. That's all it is. And when you
28:21put it that way, it's obvious why it is
28:24so important. I I want to stick on this
28:27before we go into more of the reasons
28:29why fathers are so essential. You say
28:32for both sexes, it can no longer be said
28:34that biology is destiny. Biology is
28:36potential for adaptability.
28:39I can imagine a lot of people watching
28:41this now who are averse to what you're
28:44saying and they've heard your name
28:46floating around somewhere and think that
28:47you're a dodgy character based off of
28:49one news headline they read or whatever.
28:50Probably not even a news headline,
28:52something on Blue Sky.
28:54um they can hear all of these things
28:56about the role of fathers and think that
29:00what you're doing is exactly what you
29:03said we we're not in a position to do
29:05which is map on destiny to men and map
29:07on destiny to women. Men are good at
29:09doing this, father's good at doing that.
29:12Women are good at this, mothers are good
29:13at doing that. So, how do you balance
29:16these two of accepting the differences
29:19between fathers and mothers whilst also
29:22not making that people's destiny? Yes.
29:25First, yes, absolutely. Very very good
29:27question. So, um most fathers are good
29:31are are more likely to do the
29:33roughousing than moms are. Um fathers
29:36are more likely to be u be comfortable
29:39with risk-taking. fathers are more
29:41likely to be um people who will um make
29:46enforce the boundaries. However, um you
29:49know, many fathers are are some fathers
29:52are not like that and some mothers are
29:54like that. Um I have a grandson and um
29:57the father has a real hard time doing
29:59boundary enforcement. Uh the mom isn't
30:02great at it, but she's better at it. Um
30:04and so that's an example in my own life
30:07that is different from that. And um
30:10sometimes a father will, you know, work
30:12very hard during the day and in the case
30:14of my um son-in-law. And um and he wants
30:17to make sure that when he comes home, he
30:19has fun with with the grandson. And so
30:22he's a little bit more hesitant to um to
30:24do something that will disappoint his
30:26grandson. And so it's important for both
30:29sexes to understand that um tendencies
30:32on the part of sexes are just that.
30:35They're tendencies. Um but it's
30:38important to sort of recognize that
30:40because it's easier to sort of um so but
30:44and that no matter what those tendencies
30:46are understanding what's best for the
30:49child is what is really important and
30:51that making sure that at least one
30:52parent is doing that postpone that that
30:55um boundary enforcement. Um so I'll give
30:58an example of this. Um studies show that
31:01when um boys and girls um are being dad
31:05supervised versus mom supervised that
31:08the mom is likely to set an earlier
31:10bedtime, the dad a later bedtime. So
31:13this can on the surface look like oh
31:15dads are more lenient than mom's. So
31:18let's say the bed the bedtime is 8:30.
31:21What what the studies found was like at
31:238:30, uh the kids are more likely to
31:25come up to mom and say, "Mom, you know,
31:27um um I I know this is my bedtime, but
31:31you know, I I don't have my homework
31:32done, and if I don't want to go into
31:34school without doing my homework, um
31:36don't don't you agree, mom?" And mom
31:38will say, "Well, you know, you were on
31:39the phone for an hour and a half, um you
31:41know, with your boyfriend or girlfriend,
31:43or you were on video games for an hour
31:45and a half, and I warned you while you
31:47were on the phone. uh I gave you the
31:49signal of do your homework um and you
31:52just ignored me and so uh on the other
31:55hand I don't want you to go to school
31:57without doing your homework. So okay go
32:00ahead and do your homework. So then the
32:02child does the homework and gets another
32:04half hour um to stay up to do the
32:06homework and then says at the end of
32:08that you know I did my homework can you
32:10read a story to me? Well, you know, all
32:11right. I'm very proud of you for doing
32:13your homework. I'll read a story for
32:14you. Now it's 9:30. The the dad is more
32:17likely to will say something like that
32:19the first time around, but the second
32:22time around, usually the dad is more
32:24likely to say um some version of I gave
32:26you a warning um when you were um
32:29playing that video game to get off the
32:31video game and do your homework. You
32:32didn't. You ignored me. So now you pay
32:35the price. You go you'll go to school
32:37without doing your homework. the next
32:38time I give you that signal, um, you'll
32:40know that you don't have that you better
32:42get off. You're going to make the choice
32:44between the video game and getting your
32:46homework done, but you're not going to
32:47just manipulate a later bedtime. Now,
32:50again, that's average, but studies show
32:53that on average, the children actually
32:55under dad's supervision get to bed
32:57earlier than they do under mom's
32:59supervision, even though the mom set an
33:02earlier bedtime. And again, that's all
33:04statistics. Statistics are averages. Um
33:07but it's important to understand that
33:10tendency especially um for moms because
33:13moms often get very um frustrated that
33:17they um that they say the same thing
33:20once again and again and the kids don't
33:22um obey and they don't know uh by not
33:26understanding that difference between
33:28boundary setting and boundary
33:29enforcement. Uh that can often times be
33:32very um discouraging for moms. M I feel
33:36like I need to push back on this just so
33:38that either this play of devil's
33:41advocate that I'm about to do can be
33:43proven right or that you can strengthen
33:45your argument by proving it wrong. And
33:47that's looking at what someone would say
33:49that has this view of a utopia where men
33:52and women aren't just equal, but they're
33:55the same. And I I think that's something
33:58that we get wrong a lot nowadays is that
33:59we don't just try and make men and women
34:01equal, we try and make them the same.
34:02and we forget these differences that
34:04you're speaking about. Um when to take
34:07the example of the child going to bed
34:09when they don't go to bed because of the
34:10mother. Someone might say that's just
34:13social programming and that actually we
34:15should reach a point where people
34:17respect mothers enough to go to bed at
34:18the same time as when dad enforces these
34:20boundaries and that we should train
34:22ourselves over the course of our lives
34:24to be able to enforce boundaries like
34:26dad does if we're a mother. How would
34:31you respond to that? Yeah. No, you need
34:33to en re enforce
34:36boundaries like dads tend to do whether
34:40we're a mother or a father. Um, you
34:43know, single mothers work extremely hard
34:47and most children raised by single
34:49mothers do well. Um and so but but among
34:54the uh but among the children that don't
34:57do do well um are often times uh
35:00children where the single mother is so
35:03exhausted and overwhelmed from often
35:05times doing her job outside the home and
35:08doing the job inside the home uh that
35:10she doesn't enforce um the boundaries as
35:12well as she might wish to herself. Um,
35:16and so just we just need to know that
35:20boundary enforcement is extremely
35:22important and healthy to children. It
35:24doesn't make any difference whether
35:25you're a dad or mom. You need to know
35:28that. Um, the fact that the that dads
35:30tend to do that more than moms. That
35:33just is that doesn't really we don't
35:36care whether moms as a rule are
35:38biologically programmed to do it
35:40differently than dads. Just know that
35:42the boundary enforcement is important
35:45and whatever your personal orientation
35:47toward that is then um just um pay pay
35:51attention to the importance of postpone
35:53gratification that emanates from from
35:55that boundary enforcement. Um, and also
35:58know that um that ch that children, boys
36:01in particular, that don't have dads in
36:05dads participating in their life,
36:08they're much
36:11leod of what what it takes to be a man.
36:15Um, that and that boys are on average
36:19more likely to repress their feelings
36:21than express their feelings. And when a
36:23boy has as a mother u only um him you
36:27know him coming up to his mom and
36:29talking to his mom about the fact that I
36:31just masturbated and something happened
36:33with me um is a is not something that
36:36boys are that comfortable doing with
36:38their mom. Sometimes even comfortable
36:40doing that with their dad. Um but the um
36:43but um but the girl is more likely to be
36:46able to come up to mom and express her
36:48feelings about just oh my god I'm
36:50bleeding down there. Um, and mom will
36:52know what she's talking about and be
36:54able to walk her through it. And so, um,
36:57when when boys and girls look in the
36:59mirror and girls have, you know, role
37:02models of who they are as a girl before
37:04them as in the face of their mom, um,
37:07and and boys don't have a role model of
37:09what it's like to be a man. Um, and what
37:12it's like to be a man ideally should be
37:15whatever you choose to be. uh whether
37:18that's straight, gay, trans or not, um
37:22you're um but uh as long as you're not
37:25making a decision to be trans when
37:26you're um 8 n 10 years of age when you
37:30you when that may be more based on need
37:32to get attention than onreal uh
37:35something that's really going on inside
37:36of you. Um so there's no absolute
37:40destiny for men or for women. The the
37:44enormous wonderful thing about our time
37:47is that we have no need to program men
37:49one way and women the other way. But the
37:54fact that we don't need to do that
37:56doesn't mean that the that the the
38:00epigenetic influence of what of men
38:04being disposable um in war and in the
38:07workplace um for years after years,
38:11decades, millennia and look in the
38:14animal kingdom and you see these
38:16differences between males and females
38:18also. Um so don't put expectations on
38:21oneself that one will be um completely u
38:25without uh the influ without the inside
38:28of you um being a little bit more prone
38:30in one direction than the other foremost
38:33people and um and also be open accepting
38:37and loving uh toward people who who are
38:40the opposite of the normal male female
38:43um trajectory.
38:45Boys are behind at every stage of
38:47education. We're now moving to an
38:49economy based on more of a mental model
38:53than physical model in terms of labor
38:57and girls in the UK 16 to 24 and out out
39:00earning men. Can you see any of these
39:04traditional roles like boundary
39:06enforcement, the attitudes towards them
39:09actually flipping to being a feminine
39:11trait rather than a masculine trait if
39:13all of this continues? Um, parenting
39:16wise, that's probably somewhat true. Um,
39:19but it's not, um, it doesn't it when a
39:23man and woman become parents, um, we we
39:27aren't making good use of men as
39:30potential parents. Um, so many women say
39:33to me things like, I'm really resentful
39:36that, you know, a man can be a have it
39:38all man, and a woman can't be a have it
39:40all woman. But I have it all. She
39:42defines that as, you know, I I want to,
39:44you know, break through glass ceilings.
39:45I want to have a really powerful career.
39:48Um I also want to have a um family. I
39:51want to have well-raised children. Guys
39:53can do that. You know, many feminists
39:55complain men u women can't. And I say
39:58that's completely inaccurate. Here's
40:00why. Um, a woman can look look around
40:05and um, what she what she a woman who
40:08wants to be a have it all woman just
40:10needs to look for a man who is not who
40:14is not oriented toward toward being a
40:16provider, protector, but is more
40:19oriented toward being a nurturer,
40:20connector. And so women women times
40:24women often times when they earn well
40:27still look around for men who earn as
40:29much or more in order to respect them.
40:32And if two people are very oriented
40:35toward career that leaves zero people um
40:39to be a full-time parent. Um so what we
40:43need to do in terms of you know
40:44reversing we need to be open to making
40:48roles more fluid um by asking women who
40:53want to be have it all women to to
40:56search out a different type of guy when
40:58you go to a party um instead of looking
41:02look hearing from your woman friend that
41:03this guy is a doctor or a lawyer or this
41:05guy's a CEO or um head of a tech company
41:09um look for um the guy who is listening
41:12to a woman that he's talking to rather
41:15than talking to her or talking down on
41:17her. Um, and then instead of waiting for
41:20that guy to come up to you, you go up to
41:22that guy. And if you flirt with each
41:24other and have a sort of connection with
41:26each other and he doesn't ask you out,
41:28you ask him out. Um, and you you call
41:31him up and you propose um that you know,
41:34maybe you go to some place that you find
41:36out what he likes and go take him out to
41:38a restaurant. Um and um and then because
41:42the type of guy who's a nurturer,
41:44connector um as opposed to that
41:46provider, protector type is less likely
41:48to do that. So if you want that type of
41:50guy um select for the values, the
41:54traits, the body language that you see
41:57um is is is connected to a nurturer,
42:01connector type of of of man, and then
42:04consider marrying him. he'll be much
42:07more open to raising children full-time
42:11um as long with one major major
42:15condition.
42:17If you respect him for doing that, when
42:22a man senses that you don't respect him
42:25for taking care of the children
42:28full-time, he will sense that and he
42:31knows intuitively that no woman can love
42:35a man she doesn't respect.
42:38So until you work on yourself females
42:42and take the risk of physical rejection
42:45and if you think there's no difference
42:46between you and men u then go ahead and
42:49do that. It shouldn't be a problem.
42:51You'll find that it is very challenging
42:53to risk rejection. Um especially when it
42:56comes to the sexual level. Um and so uh
43:00but but if you want to be a have it all
43:02woman, seek out this type of man. um
43:06take the risks of rejection. Look inside
43:08of yourself and get the courage to do
43:10that and you will be able to find a man
43:13who is um comfortable with taking care
43:16of the children full-time as long as you
43:18respect him and you'll have well-raised
43:20children. Um the truth is that most
43:23women, even women who are very
43:25successful in business, still make a
43:28special effort to come home for their
43:30children's birthday or their children's
43:32u first um you know um play that they do
43:35or something along those lines. Um they
43:38don't they um they tend to take jobs
43:40that are that give them some flexibility
43:44uh to do that or at least just take that
43:46flexibility um on their own. And so
43:49there's an enormous potential for
43:50variation um in the gender roles. Uh I'm
43:55a 100% supporter of variation in gender
43:58roles. Um but the um but one of the
44:00things we haven't done um is varied them
44:04enough in terms of especially most women
44:08who get married still marry men who uh
44:12they think will eventually earn as much
44:15or more than they will and are sometimes
44:18disappointed if they don't. Um and
44:20particularly in an era uh where men are
44:24not uh where our men are not performing
44:27um especially men who are dad deprived
44:29are not performing that well. Um many of
44:32these men who are raised by moms
44:34predominantly are sensitive men are
44:37caring men. They're not producer men. Um
44:40but these men can be very good at taking
44:42care of your children and your desire
44:44for roles to be more flexible. Um
44:47require your adapting mom as well as dad
44:51adapting. I really want to speak to you
44:53about this and the male connection with
44:56their feelings and being able to be more
44:59sensitive because
45:01it's something that's suppressed a lot.
45:04And you speak about this in the boy
45:06crisis, how our sons are 62% more likely
45:09to be readmitted to hospital because we
45:13don't take the advice of the doctors.
45:14Instead, we try and tough out an injury
45:16because it feels masculine. We feel like
45:18a hero. And I feel like it's the same
45:22thing with emotions. We don't learn to
45:25feel our feelings because that's
45:28perceived as a lack of masculinity. Uh
45:31when really we should be integrating our
45:34feelings into our everyday lives. And I
45:35think that's the most masculine or
45:37positive thing you can
45:39do. Talk to me more about that. Yes. in
45:43the the boy crisis book, I have a a
45:46major part of that book um called heroic
45:49intelligence versus health intelligence
45:52and saying exactly what you're talking
45:54about. And here's here's why it's
45:55developed that way. Um historically
45:58speaking, let's say you're um you know
46:00that you there's that war, that
46:02generations war coming up and and you
46:04want to be able to fight in that war.
46:06So, you go and you go to boot camp and
46:08at boot camp the you know the sergeant
46:10says um some type of comment that's
46:12really anti-semitic and let's say you're
46:14Jewish and um and you say um officer sir
46:19um I very respectfully want to say that
46:21that was an anti-semitic comment and I
46:24really I'm Jewish and I really don't
46:26like that. Uh the response of the the
46:29officer uh will be something like oh
46:32isn't that so sweet? Jewish and really
46:36offended by this little comment. Um, you
46:39know, um, why don't you do 20 push-ups?
46:41And if you have that problem again, you
46:43can do 40 push-ups. Guys, isn't that so
46:46sweet that this little Jewish boy has a
46:49problem with the things like being
46:51called anti-semitic? Now, what's the
46:53purpose of that, Sergeant? Why is he
46:55doing something so completely
46:57anti-Semitic and also, you know,
46:59insensitive? He's doing that because he
47:01knows that he has to train each of these
47:03boys to be disposable. That that is that
47:07it's a war machine that he is creating.
47:10And this war machine does not work well
47:12with squeaky wheels. And so you need to
47:16repress your feelings, not express your
47:19feelings. Um but when women look at this
47:21and they say, "Well, this is, you know,
47:23just um an example of male toxicity,"
47:26they're 100% correct. But when they
47:29extend that comment to that's a that's
47:33part of male privilege and male power,
47:36they're 100% incorrect. It's part of
47:38male
47:39powerlessness. To repress your feelings
47:42is to repress the very essence of who
47:45you are. And when rep men repress
47:48feelings, it's dangerous because it all
47:50those feelings build up. They build up
47:52and they build up and eventually
47:54something tips off the man. um and he
47:57and the volcano explodes and he might
47:59become physically violent. He might
48:01become uh self-destructive or or
48:03destructive of the person that is
48:05critical of him. And so in in in other
48:09ways that are maybe not physical but are
48:11also overstated um emotional um
48:14condemnations that lead to fights and so
48:17on. And so yes, is there such a thing?
48:21The male role is replete with male
48:24toxicity. But it is not a result of male
48:27privilege or male power. Is it a it's a
48:29result it's it's a symbol of the lack of
48:32power. And the lack of privilege.
48:34Privilege and power is about being able
48:36to be in touch with your health
48:38intelligence as well as your um uh some
48:41heroic intelligence. And I'd say that
48:43that toxicity occurs not because of an
48:46abundance of masculinity but a lack of
48:48masculinity as well.
48:50Well, that that's a a trickier one
48:53because it if you define masculinity in
48:56traditional terms, it is abundance of
48:59masculinity. If you define if you define
49:03masculinity in the terms that I would
49:05like to see it be, which is that it
49:08incorporates health intelligence and
49:09emotional intelligence, then that is not
49:12a symbol of real of real masculinity. M
49:15that's such a good point of of of what I
49:17or what I would like to be the future of
49:19masculinity. Yes, that's such a good
49:22point and and such an important one.
49:24What I find so fascinating about all of
49:26these things is that the reason for them
49:30is long in the past now. I mean in the
49:32UK there was this this um potential for
49:36us to be enlisted back into the military
49:38and do military service at a young age
49:39and people absolutely not. This is a
49:41violation on our freedoms. We we could
49:43never imagine doing that. Um and and
49:46most people my age, at least in the
49:48West, couldn't even imagine what war is
49:50like. Uh and I I think that's that's
49:53leading to a lot of issues. Not that I
49:54would wish war upon us to solve them. Um
49:57but the point is a lot of these things
49:59impacting us and the way we view
50:01ourselves, say, as men, if we're talking
50:03now, as two men, um they're not directly
50:07visible to us now. They're deeper rooted
50:10in our culture. And that's what's so
50:11magical about culture. but also so
50:13difficult is that it consists of all of
50:16these things that have happened over
50:18generations and some of them are
50:21invisible, some of them are more
50:22quantifiable. So I I think to be
50:25optimistic and take the white pill on
50:27all of this. We're at such a pivotal
50:30point at the moment because we can
50:33really uproot all of these issues, work
50:35out where they come from and try and
50:38change them because we don't have to
50:40rely on them anymore. don't have to be
50:42disposable anymore. So yeah, that's
50:44where I'm optimistic about this and I
50:46want to speak to you more about this
50:49feeling feelings as men and where
50:51actually we can still integrate these
50:54things into our lives. So you speak
50:56about this balance of tuning into pain
50:59rather than tuning out of it where we
51:02can still use this phrase imposed mainly
51:04on boys of when the going gets tough the
51:07tough gets going.
51:09Talk to me more about that.
51:12Yeah. Um we boys uh well first of all
51:14it's it's a we have to both encourage
51:18our sons to be able to be emotionally
51:21intelligent by doing things like being
51:23able to express their feelings and at
51:25the same time recognize that some of
51:28like the the type of things that we uh
51:31would like boys and girls to be which is
51:34more much more flexible in their roles
51:36to the um is also inhibited by behaviors
51:41that do not live up to our theories like
51:44the behaviors I was talking about before
51:46that it is still true that when a woman
51:50decides to marry a man um she's much
51:53more likely to want to marry a man who's
51:55earning as much or more so that and
51:58she's much less likely to be um asking
52:02that man out on a date of date paying
52:06for that date um and so on. So these are
52:09all still patterns that are still
52:11existing on average. And um and so it's
52:15so when a man feels like he's going to
52:17be rejected um if he does if he you know
52:21doesn't pay for the date um uh or if he
52:24doesn't um or he'll never get out a
52:28woman to ask him out so he has to do the
52:30asking. uh these are things that
52:32reinforce the traditional male role even
52:35as we're saying we don't we shouldn't
52:37have to to do the traditional male role.
52:39And so, you know, in order to to start
52:42forfeiting the male role um and having
52:45it be a much more expanded um dimension
52:48of health and emotional intelligence
52:50rather than heroic intelligence, um we
52:52have to for example do some very
52:54concrete things. Uh we have to begin to
52:56train work with girls in first, second,
53:00third, fourth, fifth grade um to do
53:03reaching out and when they turn into
53:05when it's in junior high school and
53:07there's a beginning of sexual feelings
53:09beginning to occur to be talking with
53:12girls about not just having boys
53:15initiate by expectation
53:17um and girls initiate by option but by
53:21girls sharing the expectation. And when
53:24we when we train our daughters to share
53:28the expectation of taking sexual
53:30initiatives, we we train them to do
53:34risk-taking. When we train them to do
53:36risk-taking, we prepare them to be
53:39entrepreneurs. Um and right now most of
53:42the entrepreneurs and most of the
53:43inventors are males um to a a very great
53:47degree. um and to and and there and one
53:51of the reasons for that is we're still
53:53having our sons and um do the one uh be
53:57the ones who take the risks or and if
53:59they don't take the risk, they're too
54:01shy or whatever, they usually end up
54:03with a lack of sexuality. And so you
54:06see, you know, in Europe, sexual
54:07activity rates have have decreased um
54:10very significantly about 50% um between
54:13the year 2000 and 2018. Um so this
54:18because oftentimes nobody is initiating.
54:21Um and so we have to you know we have to
54:23look we have to we have to recognize
54:26that adapting requires many more
54:30behaviors to challenge that are part of
54:33our traditional male and female
54:35behaviors. Um and so um but we all do
54:39have one thing in common. uh we have in
54:42I mean we have many things in common but
54:44um what like the desire to survive u but
54:47you know one of the things that we have
54:48in common is the propensity to be
54:52defensive in response to criticism um
54:55and that almost all human beings are
54:58unable to handle personal criticism from
55:00a loved one without becoming defensive
55:02and so you know the most recent book
55:04I've written the role mate rolemate to
55:06soulmate book has been based on 30 years
55:08of my doing workshops that are focused
55:11on helping people have a system uh that
55:14they can use to train their brain uh to
55:17be more um able to accept um criticism
55:21from their loved one as an ability to
55:24receive and give more love to their
55:26loved one as opposed to um as an
55:29opportunity to be defensive.
55:32Why do we struggle so much dealing with
55:35criticism?
55:37I think um historically speaking when we
55:39heard criticism it was a potential
55:41enemy. Um I mean even today when you
55:43hear China criticize the United States
55:45or the United States criticize China or
55:47whatever we um or the United States be
55:49very critical of Europe um we we move
55:52from you know ally mode to uh oh is this
55:55an enemy mode and especially like with
55:57you know China and the United States or
55:59so on or before uh Trump became
56:01president um Russia in the United
56:03States. Um, and so when we heard
56:06criticism historically, we saw we feared
56:09a potential enemy. So it made in order
56:12to survive, it made sense to get up our
56:15defenses. Um, because otherwise we would
56:17be killed. So becoming defensive was
56:21functional for survival, but it's not
56:24functional for love.
56:26And so what what many of us want from
56:30our partner is not just survival mode
56:33anymore, but the ability to really feel
56:36loved by each other. And so but
56:39everybody says this in coup's workshops.
56:43But what I found when I 30 years ago
56:45when I started my role made to soulmate
56:47workshops, um I found that um that
56:50everybody agreed with me when I
56:51suggested it's important to not be
56:53defensive in response to personal
56:55criticism. But then when I followed up
56:57with the with the couples in my
56:58workshops and said you know what worked
57:00and what didn't work uh they were more
57:03likely to say well what didn't work uh
57:05was that the moment the a criticism
57:07appeared that wisdom disappeared and I
57:09was defensive you know and so I realized
57:12I had a job in my hand and that job was
57:14to create a system that retrained the
57:18brain of each person in a loving
57:21relationship to be able to not only not
57:25be defend offensive, but to actually
57:27emotionally associate being criticized
57:31with an opportunity um to be more deeply
57:33loved. And that's a whole p how to do
57:36that is a whole podcast by itself. Um
57:39but that that's the core of the um uh
57:42that well that's one of the seven major
57:44cores of the role mate to soulmate book.
57:47Well, we'll have to do another podcast
57:49on that because it's all so important
57:51and so interesting.
57:52But one of the things that this unlocked
57:55with me reading about our inability to
57:57deal with criticism and it was actually
58:00the main thing I noted down that whole
58:02evening at Ark when you spoke at a
58:04dinner was you saying we have this
58:07Achilles heel as humans that we're just
58:09we're just unable to deal with
58:11criticism. Um and I sat there reflecting
58:14on my entire life thinking God you are
58:17so right. I'm really bad at dealing with
58:20I wish you were wrong. Yeah, exactly.
58:24And it's something that I've had to work
58:25on a lot, especially with my mom
58:27actually. Um, having grown up with
58:29mainly my mom taking care of me. She
58:32would tell me something and I'd think
58:35I'm being reasonable and then I'd replay
58:37the conversation and realize that I'd
58:39been snapping at her for giving me
58:41reasonable feedback. Not even criticism,
58:43but but just really nice motherly love
58:46trying to help me out. Um, so it's it's
58:49something that I've had to work on a
58:51lot. And I realized at that dinner also
58:54that I think it tops out these three
58:59this triad of things going wrong with
59:04specifically boys my age and friends
59:07that I know who have struggled with
59:10feelings of wanting to end their own
59:13lives and who have struggled with
59:16meaninglessness and having no purpose.
59:20The first thing is the inability to deal
59:23with criticism because they may be doing
59:26things that are suboptimal for their
59:28life. Um, and they might be going out
59:30and drinking too much and they curl up
59:33into a ball and try and deflect all the
59:35criticism rather than integrating it.
59:38That's one thing. The second
59:40thing that we mentioned earlier is this
59:43inability to feel feelings and instead
59:48trying to just block everything out and
59:51be a proper masculine man because that's
59:53what it means to be a man. Being a man
59:55is not having feelings, having in a
59:57British sense a stiff upper lip and
1:00:01surviving being disposable, going to war
1:00:03and getting killed rather than speaking
1:00:05about things. So that's the second
1:00:07thing. And then the third thing is risk
1:00:10aversion. And I think all three of these
1:00:13are linked together and they all feed
1:00:16off of each other in this negative
1:00:18feedback loop. So we've got the
1:00:20inability to take risks, we've got the
1:00:22inability to feel feelings, and we've
1:00:24got the inability to handle criticism.
1:00:26And I think all of these are wrapped up
1:00:28in what we think society expects of us
1:00:32versus what society would actually
1:00:34prefer us to do. Yes. Yeah, I think
1:00:38certainly the inability um to express
1:00:40feelings is very much um
1:00:44still part of what men learn to to to do
1:00:48is to keep their feelings to themselves
1:00:50that usually when when they express what
1:00:52their feelings what they often feel
1:00:54particularly heterosexual men um is that
1:00:56the um they feel that the female will
1:00:59especially if that those feelings
1:01:02involve any criticism of the woman that
1:01:04we love um their experience is that the
1:01:07um that that woman will withdraw
1:01:09emotionally or withdraw sexually um and
1:01:12they will have to sort of um they'll pay
1:01:15a bigger price for it than it was worth.
1:01:17So therefore, shut up. Um and so um and
1:01:21that and so and that's one of the
1:01:23reasons why it's so important for uh
1:01:25people to learn how to be able to handle
1:01:28criticism without becoming defensive and
1:01:30understand that usually the person
1:01:31giving that criticism doesn't perceive
1:01:34herself or himself as giving criticism.
1:01:36They um they they perceive themselves as
1:01:39giving a a good mommy suggestion, a good
1:01:43to expressing a concern uh to being to
1:01:46to being caring about something being
1:01:48better in the relationship. The person
1:01:51hearing that caring that concern
1:01:53experiences it like you talked about
1:01:54with your mom as criticism. Um and so u
1:01:58criticism is far more um common to be
1:02:03felt from the receiving end than it is
1:02:06to be recognized as criticism from the
1:02:08giving end. Um but we um but now the
1:02:12other risk aversion uh risk aversion is
1:02:15true among boys raised by moms um
1:02:19predominantly um boys raised by um um by
1:02:24dads and girls raised by dads are more
1:02:27usually um comfortable with taking risks
1:02:29because the fathers are usually more
1:02:32comfortable with having them take risks.
1:02:34Um and when when both a mother so for
1:02:37example um a a child will go up to a dad
1:02:41and say you know dad can I climb the
1:02:43tree in the backyard and dad will say
1:02:45well yeah okay be careful you're a
1:02:47little young but you know just be very
1:02:48careful you don't go too high or
1:02:50whatever and u mom if he if he had
1:02:53approached the mom the mom would be more
1:02:54likely to say sweetie maybe in a few
1:02:56years you can climb that tree but right
1:02:58now you're too young and it's it's too
1:03:00dangerous and that tree is you know
1:03:01there's a lot of dangerous aspects to
1:03:03the tree so let's Say the the kid um you
1:03:06know goes to mom first, gets the no and
1:03:07then decides to go to dad and gets a
1:03:09sort of qualified yes and then runs out
1:03:12and climbs the tree. Um and the uh and
1:03:16and then mom looks out the window and
1:03:18says, "Wait a minute. I told you you
1:03:19couldn't climb the tree." Well, dad said
1:03:21I could. Um and so dad and mom get into
1:03:23a thing about it. And so one of the
1:03:25things to to that's really important and
1:03:28that I train couples to do and also that
1:03:31I talk a lot about in the boy crisis
1:03:33book is to is to not be not just have
1:03:37male parenting and female parenting but
1:03:39to recognize the value of both parenting
1:03:42tendencies styles which are sometimes
1:03:44reversed and then to negotiate the
1:03:47difference in what I call checks and
1:03:49balance parenting. So applying that to
1:03:52this request by on the part of the child
1:03:54to climb the tree. Checks and balance
1:03:56parenting might look something like
1:03:57this. Um mom says you that tree is too
1:04:00dangerous. Why are you letting the kid
1:04:02climb the tree? Dad says well first of
1:04:05all dad has done his homework. And he
1:04:06explains to mom it include it includes
1:04:10uh it increases a child's IQ to be able
1:04:14to climb a tree and take risks. um and
1:04:18in increases a child's IQ to take risks.
1:04:22Yes, the child has to sort of decide
1:04:25what's what's dangerous, what's not
1:04:27dangerous and and constantly be using
1:04:31that part of the brain that's assessing
1:04:33what's dangerous and not dangerous. And
1:04:35that increases a child's IQ. This is not
1:04:37just a theory of the dad talking. This
1:04:39is databased. Um and mom goes, well, oh
1:04:43yeah, all right. But on the other hand,
1:04:45if the child dies, it doesn't make any
1:04:47difference how smart he or she is. Uh
1:04:50they fall out of the tree, mom's got a
1:04:52point. Uh so they may be negotiate or do
1:04:55checks and balance parenting. That might
1:04:57look something like this. Okay. Um let
1:05:00the child climb the tree, but only up to
1:05:02a certain point and not above that
1:05:04point. And those branches, those new
1:05:06branches that are right there are too
1:05:08fragile. So no going on those new
1:05:10branches. And I'm okay with this if you
1:05:12stand under the tree while you know
1:05:14Jimmy or Jane are climbing the tree. Uh
1:05:17so in case they fall that you can catch
1:05:20them um or at least um you know um sort
1:05:23of inhibit that fall from being straight
1:05:25onto the ground and then really having a
1:05:27serious injury. Dad says okay and said
1:05:30mom says well one more condition um let
1:05:32me have your iPhone so you don't get um
1:05:35um preoccupied with that rather than
1:05:37paying attention to the daughter or son.
1:05:39So now the son or daughter has gotten
1:05:41the best of both worlds. They've had the
1:05:44they have the practice of being able to
1:05:46decide what's dangerous and what isn't.
1:05:48That has increased their IQ and increase
1:05:50their ability to assess risks. And so
1:05:52those are the types of you know one of
1:05:54one of the values of both parents being
1:05:56involved in the parenting process. And
1:05:58even when the parents are two females or
1:06:00two males there's a tendency for one to
1:06:03be more um riskaverse and the other one
1:06:05more risk okay than the other one. and
1:06:07knowing knowing how to do checks and
1:06:09balance parenting is um a really
1:06:11important um part of both the boy crisis
1:06:14and the role mate to soulmate um books.
1:06:18I want to finish more on fatherlessness
1:06:21and go even deeper even more into why
1:06:24fathers are so essential and we need to
1:06:26know that. But just to linger on this
1:06:29for the final time because I really
1:06:31think you're one of the most powerful
1:06:32forces to put a message out there on
1:06:35this and and counter this. What is the
1:06:37case for expressing feelings and feeling
1:06:40feelings as a man?
1:06:43You don't create an internal
1:06:48volcano that causes
1:06:51ulcers,
1:06:53stress, makes anger much more um that
1:06:56you haven't ex you um when we when we
1:06:59feel able to express feelings and
1:07:02someone is able to just listen to us
1:07:05express them, it's like we're a pitcher
1:07:08of venom or poison that is having a
1:07:12chance to have somebody who loves us
1:07:14listen to us and we can pour all that
1:07:16that out. What both sexes need, straight
1:07:21or gay, is somebody that they love to
1:07:25just be able to listen without
1:07:28interrupting them. um and be able to be
1:07:31there empathetically for them, to let
1:07:33them know what they've heard, to let
1:07:36them know that um to to ask the
1:07:39question, did I distort anything and did
1:07:41I miss anything? Is there anything else
1:07:42you'd want to add? And to know that that
1:07:45it's a safe space to be able to do that.
1:07:48Uh when we do that um people for whom
1:07:52who have a partner that can do that for
1:07:54them and with them um find themselves
1:07:57much more at peace, much less stress,
1:08:00much less likely to be um have anger
1:08:03built up inside of them, less much less
1:08:05likely. Can you imagine domestic
1:08:07violence for example? Can you imagine uh
1:08:10somebody um sort of making a point
1:08:14that's critical of you and saying um and
1:08:17then you uh and then somebody argues
1:08:19with that point and then you escalate it
1:08:21and make that argument stronger and the
1:08:23and the escalation goes up and before
1:08:25you know it somebody loses loses it and
1:08:27boom um hits the other person. Uh that
1:08:30comes from not being listened to. But
1:08:34can you imagine somebody saying, you
1:08:36know, I I feel like, you know, you don't
1:08:38put the dishes in the sink and um that
1:08:41really makes the the the the room a
1:08:43mess. And the person's listening to it
1:08:45and says, "Oh, wow. I don't really want
1:08:46to make the room a mess. I really want
1:08:48it to be the way you want it to be. I'm
1:08:50sorry about that. I'll really be more
1:08:51careful about putting the dishes in the
1:08:53sink." Can you imagine that person who's
1:08:55makes that comment hitting the other
1:08:56person? It's like, "Oh, thank you.
1:08:59That's really nice. You've really heard
1:09:01me." When we listen to people, when pe
1:09:04somebody the person who feels listened
1:09:05to is much less likely to get angry um
1:09:10and to um and to participate in domestic
1:09:13violence. Probably if you're really
1:09:14listened to well, uh the chances of
1:09:17being violent in response to that are
1:09:19probably about zero. M and to seal this
1:09:23segment off for anyone that's still
1:09:25watching who's maybe around my age and
1:09:28doesn't care about any of that or at
1:09:30least it's so far ahead in the future
1:09:32that they they just think it's
1:09:33irrelevant. Um even just from a
1:09:36traditional status chasing perspective
1:09:39of wanting to be this archetypal
1:09:41masculine man, expressing your feelings
1:09:45is a hard thing to do. A bloody hard
1:09:49thing to do. And it takes a lot of
1:09:52bravery to express your feelings. And
1:09:56you should challenge
1:09:57yourself to be brave and do that. So
1:10:01even ignoring everything else that is
1:10:03way more profound than what I'm saying
1:10:05now. Being able to express your feelings
1:10:08is a brave thing to do and you should be
1:10:10able to do it.
1:10:11And before you learn to express your
1:10:15feelings, learn to listen to other
1:10:18people whose feelings are being
1:10:20expressed to you in a critical
1:10:23way. And when uh when you learn that
1:10:27skill, um you'll also have more capacity
1:10:30to express feelings in a way that's
1:10:32loving and constructive uh rather than
1:10:35um than overly critical and overly
1:10:39destructive. that's likely to alienate
1:10:40the person rather than bring them closer
1:10:42to you.
1:10:44You had an encounter with someone pretty
1:10:48famous
1:10:50and you're at a book signing if I'm
1:10:54correct when this happened. Uh, no. Was
1:10:56it your book signing? Uh, no. I think I
1:10:58know what you're talking about in the
1:11:00the the Yes. I don't want to give the
1:11:02game away. I'd love for you to tell this
1:11:04story. Um, I I had just come back from
1:11:07my first book tour and I had um Okay.
1:11:10And part part of what I was doing around
1:11:12the country was forming men's groups.
1:11:14And so everywhere I would go, I would
1:11:15form a men's group and a woman's group.
1:11:17And I'd have people in the audience sign
1:11:19something that with a pen for for Gen Z
1:11:22people. A pen is something that you that
1:11:24has these ink that
1:11:27comes
1:11:29and on these yellow pads. And so I'd
1:11:33have, you know, maybe Sounds like a
1:11:34broken Apple pen to me. Yeah. There we
1:11:36go. So stuff comes stuff's coming out of
1:11:38it, right? And um so the and then um at
1:11:42the end of the evening where I was
1:11:43speaking, I would form men's groups and
1:11:46women's groups. And so um I lived in New
1:11:48York at the time and um and so um I and
1:11:52I was writing for Miz Magazine, which
1:11:54was a feminist publication a lot. and
1:11:56they were having a party and this guy
1:11:59comes up to me at the party and says,
1:12:00"Um, are you Warren Ferrell?" And I
1:12:04said, "Yes." And he goes, "Um, well, I
1:12:06joined a men's group that you formed and
1:12:09um and and it was the it changed my
1:12:12life." And I said, "Oh, how so?" And I
1:12:15said, "Is for for the good or for
1:12:17worse?" And he said, "Oh, no, really for
1:12:19the good." And I said, "Well, how so?"
1:12:22And he said, "Um, well, um, you you
1:12:24know, you you trained the men's group.
1:12:26You you know, you uh you my my my
1:12:29situation was I would I would work with
1:12:32the men's group, train, you know, train
1:12:34it on a number of things and how to
1:12:35sustain itself and how to be effective
1:12:37and how to be positive. Um, and the um
1:12:40and then I would leave the men's group.
1:12:41I would, you know, not be involved." And
1:12:43so I had done this in New York City with
1:12:45a men's group and um that this guy had
1:12:47joined and he said, 'Well, one of the
1:12:49things you you asked the men's group to
1:12:51do is to um asked as ask the question of
1:12:54each other, what's the biggest hole in
1:12:56your heart? I thought it was kind of
1:12:58silly, but you know, when it got around
1:12:59to me, I sort of just beside myself, I
1:13:02blurted out that the biggest hole in my
1:13:03heart was that I had um been so focused
1:13:06on my business that I had lost um
1:13:08contact with my um my wife and my um my
1:13:11my son. and we eventually got a divorce
1:13:14and I rar rarely see um either one of
1:13:17them. And he said um and it's affecting
1:13:20me now because um I' I've gotten
1:13:23remarried and um I have um and my wife
1:13:26is pregnant and I just we just found out
1:13:28that it's going to be a son and I don't
1:13:31want to repeat the whole process over
1:13:32again. And so the group then and then he
1:13:36said you know the group then asked me
1:13:37another one of your war and feral
1:13:39questions which was like you know what's
1:13:41you know what would be your your the
1:13:42fantasy of what you would most like to
1:13:44do and so I sort of you know rolled my
1:13:47eyes and I said well my biggest fantasy
1:13:49would be I'd like to take five years off
1:13:51and take care of my son well until he
1:13:53goes to like kindergarten or first
1:13:55grade. And so um and then I said um and
1:14:00so the group said to me, "Well, you
1:14:02know, why don't you um ask your wife if
1:14:04she's okay with you doing that?" And he
1:14:07said, "I rolled my eyes again and I
1:14:08said,"All right, but I committed to the
1:14:10group that I would ask my wife." And I
1:14:12did. And she said, "Yeah, John, do
1:14:13whatever you want to do. Um that's fine.
1:14:15You've earned the ability. We can afford
1:14:17for you to do that." Um and so um he
1:14:21said um so he came back. He said, "I
1:14:23came back to the group, but I told them
1:14:25that." And they said, "Well, great.
1:14:26You're going to take off um the first
1:14:27five years and take care of your son,
1:14:29the new son." And he said, "You must be
1:14:31kidding. That was just I did that
1:14:33because you told me to ask my wife." And
1:14:35so I did that, but you know, I I have a
1:14:38business to run. I have contracts.
1:14:40They're legal contracts. I'm, you know,
1:14:42I'm um you know, this is ridiculous. I
1:14:44can't take five years off. And he said,
1:14:46"Then the group asked me um a really big
1:14:50question. And they said, "Uh, what's
1:14:53does do you own the business or does the
1:14:55business own
1:14:57you?" And he said,
1:15:00"Whoa." He said, "I guess I am feeling
1:15:02like I am owned by the business." And he
1:15:05said, "That catapulted me into the
1:15:08decision to actually take years off to
1:15:14focus on my son." And I said, "Well, how
1:15:16old is your son?" I said, "Your son is
1:15:19born and now and he's he's um" Yeah. He
1:15:21said he's two years about two years old
1:15:24going on to and um I said, "Well, was
1:15:27this a good decision?" He said, "No, it
1:15:28wasn't a good decision. It was the best
1:15:30decision of my life." You know, I always
1:15:32used to, you know, think about love and
1:15:33things like this. I really never knew
1:15:35what love was until every move my son
1:15:37made was important to me and what he ate
1:15:40and what he didn't eat and so on. Now I
1:15:43really understand love. And as I
1:15:46mentioned before, I had just come back
1:15:47from my first book tour and somebody
1:15:49came up to the table. We were talking
1:15:51for about an hour. Somebody came up to
1:15:53the table and said, "Um, can I have your
1:15:55autograph?" And I reached up and said,
1:15:56"Excuse me, John, but let me get get the
1:15:58auto take the autograph." And the guy
1:16:00goes, "Oh, oh yes, yes, I'd like your
1:16:02autograph, but could I have his
1:16:04autograph first?" And um and I'm
1:16:06suddenly realizing, "Oh my god, this is
1:16:09so embarrassing. I thought it just
1:16:11assumed it was my autograph. And so John
1:16:13just takes a piece of paper, writes it,
1:16:15and gives the p paper back to him. And I
1:16:16said, "You sign that so quickly, you
1:16:19must be well known." And he said, "Let's
1:16:23just continue our conversation." I said,
1:16:26"Well, I'd love to continue the
1:16:27conversation, but you know, but I know
1:16:30your first name is John. What is your
1:16:31Could you tell me your last name?" And
1:16:33he sort of goes, "All right, yes, it's
1:16:35Lennon." Um, and I said, "John Lennon."
1:16:38And now I'm proud of myself for the next
1:16:41thing I say. Now you're a member of a
1:16:45singing group, aren't you? And he goes,
1:16:48"Yes." And now he's really smiling or
1:16:50repressing his smile. And I said, "Now,
1:16:53what's the name of the group?" And he
1:16:55goes, "The Beatles." And then I realized
1:16:58how ignorant I am. And um and so um I
1:17:04was so focused on my own doctoral
1:17:06dissertation and my u writing my first
1:17:09book and my speaking around the country
1:17:11and being an assistant to the president
1:17:12of NYU, I was not watching TV. And so it
1:17:16was like I just barely knew what the
1:17:19Beatles were. So, um, even though I
1:17:22lived across the street from the Bitter
1:17:24End in New York, which is where, um, you
1:17:27know, all the singing groups played,
1:17:29but, um, anyway, that was, um, uh, a bit
1:17:33of an embarrassing story.
1:17:35[Laughter]
1:17:38Such an amazing story. And I I love that
1:17:40you didn't quite know until he said the
1:17:42Beatles and then you you couldn't have
1:17:44not known that. Yes.
1:17:46Yes. Even Even I knew that.
1:17:49Warren, you're such a titan of this
1:17:52space, but transcending all of the
1:17:55podcast space and the book space and
1:17:58whatever, male feminism, female
1:18:01feminism, I I just I really really
1:18:04respect you as a person and reading your
1:18:07books and watching your talks in in
1:18:09preparation for this, I would just
1:18:12describe it as a
1:18:14refreshing view on reality. And it's no
1:18:18more than that. Uh no no less than that.
1:18:21It's it's um it's it's truly been
1:18:25life-changing absorbing your content
1:18:27over the last few weeks. So I thank you
1:18:28for that. Um and I I thought in lie of
1:18:32that I'd finish with a slightly
1:18:34different question to what we've been
1:18:37speaking about today and that's asking
1:18:39you who the most impressive person
1:18:42you've ever met is.
1:18:45Whoa. Let's see. I have a very strong
1:18:48respect for Barack Obama. Um I have met
1:18:52um Bill Clinton. I have a very strong
1:18:54respect for him in most in most in most
1:18:57ways. Um and so probably among the
1:19:01people I've met that I've gotten to know
1:19:03a little bit um would be John Lennon or
1:19:06Bill Clinton. M and I didn't ask this
1:19:09question to try and get a flashy answer
1:19:11from you about the most famous person,
1:19:13but because I think it shows what a
1:19:16person values in a person and I really
1:19:20value what you value and what you've
1:19:23been working towards. So, I really hope
1:19:25that people can unearth some of your
1:19:28older work and also keep on reading some
1:19:29of your newer work because it's it's
1:19:32just amazing and I think it's exactly
1:19:33what Gen Z need if we are to go in a
1:19:37direction of flourishing rather than a
1:19:39downhill trajectory. Thank you. And it's
1:19:42just been such a pleasure being
1:19:44interviewed by you. are so bright, so
1:19:48your ability to just focus in on some of
1:19:50the things that are the most important
1:19:52um is really so refreshing and um your
1:19:55openness and your caring is um just a
1:19:58wonderful gift to your generation and
1:20:00and ultimately it will be to the world.
1:20:02I know you will become a very powerful
1:20:04influence in the world. Dr. Warren
1:20:06Farrell. Where can people find more of
1:20:08your work? At warrenfarrell.com. And the
1:20:11Warren is like Warren Buffett with a lot
1:20:13less
1:20:16money. The Fereral is F A R E L. It's
1:20:20not like Will Ferrell with an E. Not
1:20:22that funny. Um and so um
1:20:26it's so it's Warren Ferrell.com
1:20:30um is the um the website. And then just
1:20:33the uh the boy crisis. Um if you're a
1:20:36Gen Z person, that I think is really
1:20:39essential to read. And if you really
1:20:41want good communication, I think the
1:20:42role mate to soulmate book is the other
1:20:44book I'd most
1:20:45recommend. And they're they're both in
1:20:48audible uh form, of course.

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