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EXCLUSIVE: President Zelensky 'BETRAYED' By Trump & Elon Musk | Piers Morgan Interview — Transcript

by Piers Morgan Uncensored · 12,643 words · 1,873 segments · language ru · Watch on YouTube

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0:00It's a pity that we are losing strong
0:03partner.
0:04>> Do you think you're losing America?
0:06>> Yeah, but not because of us. We can't be
0:08weak otherwise we can't survive. Putin,
0:11he's losing at the battlefield.
0:13>> Are you angry with Elon Musk for doing
0:15this?
0:15>> No, it's a big mistake. People will die.
0:18Of course, if attacks will continue. So
0:20my message is absolutely clear. We are
0:23asking to switch on and I think it's it
0:26will be honest. It will be fair between
0:29partners have to be.
0:33>> More than half a million Ukrainians are
0:34without power after an overnight barrage
0:36of Russian missiles and drones hit the
0:39country's energy facilities. The capital
0:41city Keev is once again under attack. In
0:43the three days since President Trump
0:45announced a so-called energy ceasefire,
0:47Russia has systematically bombed
0:49Ukrainian power plants. Now its defenses
0:51have been weakened by apparent speed
0:53limits applied overnight to Elon Musk's
0:55Starlink. Ukraine is critically
0:57dependent on the satellite service
0:59because Russia has destroyed its
1:00telecoms. Both Musk and Trump have this
1:02week called for the Ukrainian president
1:04to be replaced. And the current crisis
1:06began with Trump's announcement of a
1:08diesel supply deal with Vladimir Putin,
1:11reversing years of US policy and new
1:13sanctions that he personally signed into
1:15law just 21 days earlier. Ukraine's
1:18President Vladimir Zalinski is in London
1:20for talks with Prime Minister Andy
1:21Bernham and for a meeting with King
1:24Charles. But first, he joins me for the
1:26first time in the uncensored studio. Mr.
1:28President, welcome to London and welcome
1:30to Uncensored.
1:31>> Thank you very much. First,
1:32>> this is the first fourth time that I've
1:35interviewed you. The first time was four
1:36months into the war in the summer of
1:392022 and I went to Kev and we had a very
1:42powerful conversation with you and the
1:44first lady. And it's it's hard to think
1:48that here we are nearly 5 years on and
1:51this war is still raging.
1:54What is happening?
1:57>> What is happening? So I think for for us
2:00it was very clear from the very
2:01beginning that Putin personally
2:05he wants to occupy our country and break
2:09us totally and uh it's his goal. It was
2:14from the very beginning of full scale
2:17war but it's clear now then it began to
2:20be clear for EU members not to all of
2:24them I think I hope now to all of them
2:27then it was clear to to the United
2:30States and I think that the pressure was
2:33very strong on Russia not enough yes and
2:38uh and now what's going on not enough
2:40pressure Russia launch of Of course, how
2:44to circumvent sanctions, how to destroy
2:48energy, and they pushed us through these
2:50absolutely terrible winters. And what is
2:53understandable that the it's the war for
2:56us, but for somebody it's economy, for
2:58somebody's business, and it's not fair.
3:03The the events of the last few days must
3:06have been very disturbing for you and
3:08for the people of Ukraine. It appears
3:11that President Trump, to quote a phrase
3:14that we would use over here, has thrown
3:16you under the bus. He's done this diesel
3:19deal with Vladimir Putin, having just
3:21announced renewed sanctions, which
3:24people find inexplicable. And now you
3:26have a situation where President Trump
3:28announced a energy ceasefire and within
3:32hours Vladimir Putin launches an
3:35absolute bombardment of Ukraine aimed
3:39directly at your energy
3:42and Elon Musk who controls Starlink owns
3:44the company which you rely on. It
3:47appears it's been powered down. Do you
3:49feel betrayed by what has been
3:51happening?
3:55>> Really? Yes. Really between us. But uh I
3:59mean it's a little bit uh more
4:01complicated than just my emotions or my
4:04feelings. Yes. It's it depends not on my
4:07not on me. I mean this our our country
4:11has to survive and we count on our real
4:14partners strategic partners United
4:16States and President Trump they wanted
4:19us not to attack this my opinion was
4:22it's not fair energy ceasefire it's okay
4:24it's understandable they I mean this
4:27it's the worst version of peace but
4:31anyway it's some steps to the peace so
4:34the escalation
4:36energy ceasefire when President Trump
4:38said, "I didn't know about it, but of
4:40course we support it because we we we
4:42need our people to live to go through
4:45this winter and to stop the war. Th this
4:48is what we want." But he said about
4:50energy cevire and we didn't attack
4:53during three days any kind of energy
4:56objects and we didn't not just attack we
4:58didn't respond that you absolutely
5:01correctly said that after energy
5:03ceasefire Russia answered especially by
5:06the way directly to Trump but we had
5:09these feelings on on they they attacked
5:12us our gas stations infrastructure and
5:15etc. Then I said that okay we will we
5:18will hold our emotions and we will not
5:21respond on diesel but believe me what I
5:26said American partners they will attack
5:28energy they will do it it about ours or
5:31about this and it was this night but
5:34what was really strange and what was not
5:39like between partners that they switch
5:41off Starlink so something absolutely
5:44crazy steps between us. So we hold
5:49energy ceasefire from our side. Russia
5:52attacked us with hundreds of different
5:55missiles including 40 ballistic missiles
5:58and all these ballistic by the way all
6:01100% that they use them against our
6:05energy infrastructure.
6:06>> Of the 40 ballistic missiles only four
6:10were able to be brought down. So 36
6:13presumably got through and of the 128
6:17drones the majority were taken down but
6:20presumably had Starlink been working at
6:22the normal speed you might have taken
6:24them all down. So this is having real
6:27consequences on the damage that Russia
6:29can inflict and on the casualties
6:31involved.
6:32>> You know that the problem is that at
6:35night the Starling was switched on. So
6:38this is the problem.
6:39>> And do you believe deliberately? Do you
6:41think it's been done deliberately? Has
6:43Elon Musk because he he posted on X his
6:46own platform. He posted that he thinks
6:49there should be a new president in
6:50Ukraine, not you. He did that in the
6:52last few days. Do you think he has
6:54deliberately turned the speed down on
6:57Starink to damage you?
6:58>> I'm I'm sure that that they knew what
7:00they did.
7:02>> Absolutely. Because it was 1 a.m. So 1
7:07at night. He asked about this. So, and
7:11the Starlink was blocked
7:14of course by the SpaceX and of course by
7:17the by the United States is they are
7:20right of course but uh
7:23I mean this Starlink is not for attacks
7:28part of this it strikes and of course
7:31they blocked our army strikes. What they
7:33did they made whole pressure on us
7:36ballistic missiles then not walking
7:38information about ballistic before
7:42attack and then switch uh off uh
7:47um starlings
7:49>> and when you destroy shahitis
7:52>> and uh often when we destroy jet chah we
7:57use drones with sterlings. So it's not
8:00about just just attack
8:03>> as as I said that we didn't didn't
8:06attack their energy. It's not about
8:07attack. It's also about defending the
8:10lives. So people were killed because not
8:12enough destroying not enough
8:15interceptors including interceptors with
8:17sterling which didn't work. Of course,
8:20you've had people who were very
8:22supportive of President Trump, uh, like
8:25Laura Lumer, who've posted, "How come
8:27Russia isn't being held accountable, she
8:30went to see you recently for an
8:31interview, for violating the energy
8:33ceasefire?" President Trump said he
8:35wanted Russia and Ukraine to abide by.
8:38Russia fired 39, now 40, you said,
8:41ballistic missiles into Ukraine last
8:43night, most of which targeted Ukraine's
8:45energy facilities. Putin is the Hitler
8:48of our time.
8:49Do you agree with her when she says
8:51Putin is the Hitler of our time?
8:53>> Absolutely. Absolutely. It's true.
8:57>> You think he's that evil?
9:00>> No, he is
9:03he's not I'm I mean this he's not so
9:06strong as evil. I think so. But people
9:09are afraid of him and uh he's not I mean
9:15United States
9:19stronger between us. We understand it
9:21stronger and they have to be on our side
9:24and when you speak or compare Putin and
9:26Hitler like Laura said. So what can I
9:29say? United States have to be on our
9:31side if it's
9:34>> situation if President Trump is watching
9:36this interview and he he might well be
9:39if he is what's your message to him
9:44president we we always been very
9:46thankful for his support for the support
9:48of American people and he has to
9:50understand that Russia wants him to be
9:53weak this is this act after his words
9:57about energy is this act against him
10:00personally.
10:01>> They're mocking him. They're mocking
10:03him, aren't they?
10:04>> Absolutely.
10:04>> They're literally,
10:06>> huh?
10:07>> They're laughing. They're laughing.
10:08They're laughing
10:08>> making him look stupid.
10:10>> I don't know. I mean, there it's
10:13so
10:14>> I think they are.
10:15>> I think I think they're just saying,
10:16"Look, we don't care what President
10:18Trump says.
10:20>> He can have an energy ceasefire. We're
10:21going to we're going to rain missiles
10:23and and drones all over Ukraine."
10:25>> They don't care what America thinks.
10:27They don't care about elections in the
10:30United States. They really care what
10:32will be with Ukraine because again this
10:35is their goal. They hate Americans. It's
10:38absolutely clear. And they I mean this
10:41when they speak for today they speak
10:43even publicly about it not on the level
10:45of Putin.
10:46>> Putin speaks about it not loudly. As I
10:49said he's not very strong as he wants to
10:52show to the world. He's strong till till
10:56the world will stop him.
10:58>> Do do you believe that the diesel deal?
11:01>> No, of course it doesn't have any
11:03influence on the price. I don't know.
11:06>> It's a negligible amount. Absolutely.
11:07And America doesn't really need that
11:09amount from Russia. So what is going on
11:11here? There is a theory.
11:13>> Yeah.
11:13>> Uh a wellsourced theory that what is
11:16going on is that Trump is under huge
11:18pressure with the midterm elections
11:20coming. The Iran war has not been going
11:22well. energy prices have spiked as a
11:25result. Americans are playing paying
11:27more money at the pump for their for
11:29their gas and so on. And that actually
11:32he's done this as a distraction to kind
11:35of blame you for the energy prices in
11:39America that Americans are having to pay
11:41for what's happening in the Iran war. Do
11:44do you subscribe to that theory? Do you
11:46agree with that? I think that uh there
11:49are a lot of different re reasons and uh
11:53and uh your reason is also uh absolutely
11:56correct and uh for me what's going on
12:00now yes elections and possibility to
12:04push us to capitulation between us if
12:07not to choose the wars it's about
12:09capitulation they want us to find any
12:12instrument any instrument Russia wants
12:15to push us hours from Danbas not by our
12:18by by them by ourselves. Yes. And of
12:21course they use the United States and of
12:24course they sell them some I don't know
12:29business John Wenture econom project
12:32projects economical projects and etc. I
12:34don't know that's why I said there are a
12:36lot of different reason but yes middle
12:39east of course straight off or this is
12:42real uh reason why the prices increased
12:47in the world and all the world
12:49understands it absolutely clear 100% not
12:53even 90
12:53>> when you found when you found out that
12:56President Trump had done this deal with
12:58Putin 21 days after new sanctions what
13:03was your im immediate response to that?
13:06>> It's a pity that we are losing uh we are
13:09losing strong partner.
13:13So this is my opinion and
13:15>> you think you're losing America.
13:17>> Yeah. But but not because of us. We I
13:21mean this we can't be weak otherwise we
13:23can't survive otherwise we will we will
13:26just we are not selling our country.
13:28Look guys it's not about business for
13:30us. just our life and this is our
13:34country. It's our body. So our home, our
13:37children and and this is very important
13:39for us. That's why it's painful when
13:42President Trump chooses one side not not
13:46our side but we are okay that he's in
13:49the middle but if you're in the middle
13:51you have to stay in the middle not on
13:53the wrong side. I think his advisers are
13:56wrong. I don't know who who is pushing
13:58him not to the right side. This is not
14:01right side of history.
14:02>> You see, I feel that many Americans I've
14:05spent a lot of time in America and I
14:07speak to a lot of Americans about this.
14:09Many Americans are with you.
14:11>> Yes, I know. I'm thankful to them.
14:14>> I believe the majority of Americans
14:16support you and Ukraine. So you have
14:18just people around President Trump, I
14:20think, who do not represent the majority
14:24thinking of Americans who are pushing
14:27for this to me crazy deal with Putin,
14:30which looks like he's taken a side
14:32against you. And it makes no sense to
14:34me. And the whole energy ceasefire was
14:36obviously honestly because
14:39within hours Putin's just doing what he
14:41likes.
14:42>> No, no. Now Putin is laughing because I
14:46mean this is for him simple victory.
14:49Yes. This diesel deal. Yeah. It's I mean
14:51then block Starlink. It's simple victory
14:56tactical. What's going on? For example,
14:58Starlink we use civilians use that's
15:00what I said very important to def for
15:02defending. But also our soldiers use
15:06Starlinks on the battlefield. When Putin
15:09why he's laughing? Why it's small
15:10victory for him? Why? because he's
15:12losing at the battlefield. He lost so
15:15many people in 2026 now huge amount the
15:19biggest during all this all this
15:21>> how many casualties
15:23>> 43,000 each month now
15:25>> really
15:25>> can you can you
15:26>> on the Russian side alone
15:27>> on the Russian side alone
15:28>> and how many how many are you losing on
15:30the Ukrainian side
15:32>> I can't share but I but it's I mean
15:35between us for today it's from 7 to 10 1
15:40to 7 1 to 10
15:42>> the ratio
15:43>> yeah from Ukrainian to Russian.
15:45>> Yes.
15:45>> So for every every Ukrainian being
15:47killed, seven to 10 Russians have been
15:49killed.
15:49>> Absolutely. Every every Ukrainian now
15:51kills from 7 to 10, which is an
15:54astonishing statistic.
15:55>> But when we said 40, when I said 43, we
15:57have to be clear 43,000. What is the
16:00difference? When you when they lost
16:0243,000, it mean hard wounded, tough
16:06wounded and killed, right? And among
16:08these 43, it's about 20 20 25 killed
16:14>> every month.
16:14>> Every month. And that's why I said 1 to
16:177, 1 to 10. Yeah. And and the difference
16:21between killed and wounded also is
16:23interesting. I mean it's for for them
16:25it's nothing. For us it's important.
16:28>> We have one killed,
16:31five, six wounded.
16:33>> Right. It's our statistics. Their
16:35statistic is 50/50 for today,
16:39>> right?
16:39>> So killed and wounded 50/50. So
16:41>> So they're having a much higher majority
16:44of casualties are dying on their side.
16:46>> Of course. Yes. And with with all these
16:48losses, we we stabilize the front
16:53>> and of course they switch off startling
16:55for what? So it will helpful for Putin.
16:58Of course.
16:59>> Of course. So why has Elon Musk done
17:00this? You know Elon Musk? He's
17:02previously been surprised.
17:03>> No, I I had communication with him.
17:05We've been very thankful for Starlings
17:07and uh you know that it was not the
17:09present. Yeah. Uh I mean this it was
17:13>> well we don't we don't we don't know if
17:14Elon Musk and the president spoke to
17:16each other.
17:16>> I mean it's Europeans Yeah. Europeans
17:18paid for Star Link including our big
17:22friends and neighbors in Poland. They
17:24paid for the for for these star links.
17:26It's not just
17:27>> Are you angry with Elon Musk for doing
17:29this?
17:30>> Yes. I think he is not right. It's a big
17:32mistake. I don't know him or somebody
17:35pushed him to I don't know really. But
17:38um our soldiers when we got this
17:40information at night they tried to make
17:43connection with
17:46SpaceX and not only SpaceX with with
17:50American partners with generals. Yes. I
17:53said them of course connect and ask
17:55what's going on maybe technical problems
17:57and etc. They said no no no we we don't
18:00think that this is technical problem
18:02>> it was deliberately restricted
18:04>> it's two big problems the first one is
18:08intelligence when American partners
18:10shared with us intelligence about
18:12ballistic another thing it's startling
18:15it's uh mid strikes which helped our
18:18soldiers and also civilians to defend
18:20shahitz
18:22>> it helps because we use some
18:24interceptors with ster links to defend
18:26jet shahit because They're very quick.
18:28So it's two different issues. When you
18:30speak about intelligence, yes, they said
18:32that we had some technical problems. Now
18:34they it will work. But half of the night
18:37it again it again didn't work. It's a
18:40pity. But they said it's technical
18:42problem. But about Starlink. So I mean
18:45this we are professionals. We we
18:47understand what's going on. If you're
18:49losing the speed so of Starling, so we
18:52understand what's going on. So they
18:54switch off. It's their decision.
18:57>> What is your message to Elon Musk?
18:59>> No, it's a big mistake. A a lot of
19:01losses. This decision will bring a lot
19:04of human losses.
19:05>> Yes, people are dying because of his
19:06decision.
19:07>> Of course, people will die. Of course,
19:10if attacks will continue and if sterling
19:13will not work, of course, I mean this
19:14it's not helpful. So my message is
19:17absolutely I hope that is mistake maybe
19:21huge technical problem. I don't know.
19:24But we are asking to to do it to switch
19:28on and I think it's it will be I mean
19:31honest it will be fair and it like
19:35between partners have to be
19:38>> Donald Trump when he was asked about the
19:40situation he he said this listen to what
19:42he said.
19:44>> You know what I suggest?
19:47I suggest they get a new leader who can
19:50make a deal because he could have made
19:52many deals that for some reason he'd
19:54never does. And let me go a step
19:55further. If I were president, you
19:57wouldn't have ever had that war. That
19:59war would have never started. There was
20:01no reason that that war with Ukraine and
20:04Russia started. It started due to
20:06incompetence.
20:08Should have never started. You wouldn't
20:09have lost 30% of your country already.
20:13You've lost 30% of your country and
20:15you've had over a million people killed.
20:19Between the two of them, over two
20:20million people killed. That's a war that
20:23should have never started. And I think
20:25it's time for Ukraine to get a new
20:26president.
20:28>> I mean, he's he's throwing you under a
20:30massive bus there, isn't he? He wants
20:33you out.
20:35>> He wants you out.
20:36>> Yeah.
20:37When I by the way when I became the
20:41president uh Crimea and Danbas partially
20:45was already occupied
20:47>> of course.
20:47>> Yes. It was a new by the way president.
20:50President Trump has to know another
20:52president was in my then uh it was how
20:57to say.
21:00>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So long periods quite
21:03long period till the full scale mission
21:06began.
21:08>> Yeah. And uh it's mean that moving me
21:13and but but it decision of course of our
21:16people. Yes. No Trump, no musk, no
21:19anybody in the world can can choose the
21:22president or elect in other countries.
21:24But this is not the problem of the
21:26president. I mean this moving me and uh
21:30I'm sure
21:32the new man or woman will defend our
21:36country because we are I mean this where
21:39it's our as I said it's our home how you
21:42can do another way it's it's the
21:44question how to do it somebody will do
21:46it better somebody not but in any way we
21:50speak about Ukrainian president and
21:52>> what what is extraordinary I think when
21:54I went to Ukraine
21:56Four months into the war, many people
21:58were predicting it would be over
22:00quickly. Russia would win because they'd
22:02throw everything at it. And here we are
22:04nearly 5 years later and they haven't.
22:07They've taken a section of the Donbass.
22:11But the question I guess for you, can
22:14you imagine a scenario where you don't
22:17have to give any territory to Russia? or
22:20is the only way this war ends with you
22:24agreeing to give some territory to the
22:27Russians?
22:28>> It depends on several things and not not
22:31too much. By the way, the first thing
22:34the first thing how
22:37our partners will be ready to stay
22:41closely with us. better to be closer
22:44than now because when we speak as I said
22:47that's I mean there's no shadow games
22:52nothing everything will have to be
22:54between partners very open clear and
22:56very understandable weapon sanctions
22:59fundings and it's very understandable
23:02what to do to stay strong to be strong
23:05and Putin will not win will not prevail
23:08100%
23:10without partners is uh more difficult
23:13ult [clears throat] and it's I mean it's
23:15unbelievable how how to how to
23:19survive without huge losses.
23:23This is the key not to have too much
23:25losses. This is
23:26>> and is America key to this
23:28>> America and Europe EU and Europe I mean
23:33this
23:33>> because Georgia Maloney today
23:36>> um from Italy obviously she has come out
23:38very strongly against the diesel deal.
23:42She's furious with President Trump, who
23:44she was very friendly with.
23:45>> Yeah,
23:45>> she's a conservative politician,
23:47>> but she's enraged by this deal. Thinks
23:50it flies in the face of everything
23:52>> uh that had been agreed with the
23:54sanctions. It encourages Putin and so
23:56on.
23:57>> Are you encouraged that leaders like
23:59Georgia Maloney Yeah.
24:00>> are now coming out. Obviously, the
24:02British Prime Minister Burnham as well,
24:04>> Andy, Georgia, strong leaders. Kir who
24:08was always on our side. Yes, he was. and
24:11uh Emmanuel is on our side mostly people
24:16Donald Tusk.
24:17>> Yeah. So and I mean I mean this
24:22and countries even with the changing you
24:24know changing with the leaders the
24:26policy was continuing so they supported
24:30us matter in Denmark Swiss Sweden uh Ulf
24:35Sweden prime minister Finland Alex a lot
24:38of so they stay now with us and they are
24:42very clear and direct doesn't matter
24:43Georgia is friend of Trump of Donald
24:46Trump or not doesn't matter Uh, it's
24:48it's not right. But
24:49>> can you can you win, President Zalinski?
24:51Can you win? Of course.
24:52>> No. Without the Americans on your side.
24:55>> So we we can we we will not in any way
24:59lose our independent country. Yes. Uh we
25:04we will have huge problems with uh huge
25:09problems with how to push Putin to um
25:13diplomatic way of ending this war to
25:15negotiations. This is the problem. Yeah.
25:18So that's why with the United States
25:19it's more simple. It's difficult but
25:21it's more simple to push Putin to the
25:24right position to negotiations and only
25:27during negotiations you can find a way
25:31out of this war real. Is is your
25:35position, just to push you on this,
25:37>> is your position
25:38>> as the president of Ukraine that in
25:41those negotiations
25:42you would never agree to any territory
25:47being given to the Russians or is your
25:49position that it's negotiable? In other
25:51words, obviously you don't want to give
25:53the whole Donbass, but is there a deal
25:56to be done that would involve
25:57potentially some Ukrainian land being
26:00given to Russia? I think in your in your
26:03question yes there is an answer
26:07why uh
26:10some big guys want to change me
26:14>> because I will never accept Ukrainian
26:18land as Russian land. Yes I am a realist
26:21and I understand that people more
26:24important than uh 1 kilometer or 2 km is
26:29not about kilometers. I mean this it's
26:31it's about land and homes. This is
26:34important. Yes, it's occupied but it's
26:36this territory is occupied. It's
26:39temporary.
26:40>> Yes, I am finding the way of dialogue.
26:43I'm on this side to have dialect and try
26:46to manage it because in the future in
26:49any way these all the thing all these
26:51people who want to be Ukrainians they
26:53will be Ukrainians because they are and
26:56these territories are Ukrainian that in
26:58any way it will come back but without
27:00weapon because of losses it to my mind
27:04because a lot of things will change
27:06leader in Russia will change yes of
27:09course not next if the next will be the
27:12same you know in 10 years.
27:14>> But in with your position,
27:16>> yeah,
27:17>> to be clear, you have no intention of
27:19resigning.
27:20>> You're not going to quit.
27:21>> Not of course. It's my responsibility.
27:24>> And then people will say, "Okay, when
27:27will you have an election?" Now,
27:29obviously, you were supposed to have one
27:30in 2024,
27:31>> but because of the war, you weren't able
27:33to have one. Many millions of people,
27:35Ukrainians, have left the country. Many
27:37more are fighting on the front line. Is
27:40it is it possible to have an election of
27:43the kind that President Trump has been
27:45talking about?
27:45>> Not of course. No 10%.
27:49It's because of
27:52each hour we have attacks. This massive
27:55attack what we discussed it was about
27:57night but during the day the same
28:01>> drone shah hundreds and thousands each
28:05hour attack. So that's why from the
28:08point of security you can't do elections
28:10then soldiers are on the front. We can't
28:13choose the president without soldiers
28:15because they give and gave their lives.
28:18They first who has to vote and I think
28:21it's fair.
28:22>> Do you believe the Ukrainian people are
28:24on your side?
28:25>> Yes, of course. I'm sure we all
28:30Ukrainian people and we all on one side.
28:34We have only one enemy. It's Russia and
28:37it's in also in their interests to end
28:40this war because Putin will end and
28:43Russia is a country. They want to have a
28:46his not only history. Yeah. They want to
28:49have future but how to live with such
28:51leader. How how how to manage it. They
28:54killed a lot of people. Thousands and
28:56thousands of Ukrainians came to our
28:58houses, occupied it our homes and now
29:02this their solution is go out again. But
29:06who who can give guarantees even if
29:10somebody want to make steps back?
29:14>> You've been achieving
29:15>> who will give you security.
29:17>> You've been achieving a lot of success
29:20attacking Russia in Russia including in
29:23Moscow. You've been hitting these data
29:24centers, uh, the Yandex data centers,
29:28which many people think
29:29>> they will respond, by the way. Yes. They
29:30attacked our data center and destroyed
29:33>> course. But you're being more successful
29:34than perhaps the Russians anticipated.
29:36Do you believe in your heart, President
29:39Zilinski, that you can beat the
29:41Russians, that you can actually achieve
29:43victory in this war?
29:45>> I think that Putin's goal is total
29:49occupation of Ukraine. We already beat
29:52that. What is your what is your goal?
29:54>> To stop this war. Make it peace. Stay
29:57where we stay. Everything will come back
29:59because we real country. We really
30:03Ukrainians and all this part which is
30:05occupied it is temporarily occupied it.
30:08I'm sure.
30:10Mr. President, um I'm being told by your
30:12team that we have to wrap up because you
30:14have two important meetings. One with my
30:16prime minister and one with my king. I
30:18can only thank you for coming all the
30:20way to the studio. Thank you.
30:22>> Uh, it's great to see you again.
30:24>> You know how I feel about this.
30:26>> I want Ukraine to win this. And I want
30:28America and I want President Trump, I've
30:29known him a long time. And if you're
30:31watching, President Trump, do the right
30:33thing here. Siding with Vladimir Putin
30:35against this guy and his country is the
30:38wrong thing. It's what we called in
30:40World War II appeasement to Hitler.
30:42Don't be that guy. Give this guy the
30:45support he needs to defeat the modernday
30:47Hitler. That's how I'd like to end this
30:49interview. I wish you all the very best
30:51and please send my best to the Ukrainian
30:53people. We in England I know
30:55>> in the UK we're right behind you
30:57>> be under no doubt about that whatsoever.
30:59Thankful to you and to your nation
31:01absolutely great nation great people
31:05great Britain which is from the very
31:07beginning on right side of history by
31:10the way on our side and we we are
31:12thankful to your support and it's we I
31:15mean it's clear we are friends. Thank
31:17you.
31:17>> Great to see you.
31:19>> Thank you very much. Thank you.
31:20>> Thank you.
31:21>> Thank you.
31:22>> Well, joining us now for their reaction
31:24to that extraordinary interview with
31:25President Zilinski is the former NATO
31:27Supreme Allied Commander, General Wesley
31:28Clark. Also here with me in my studio,
31:31the author of Provoked, Scott Horton,
31:33and the US Special Forces veteran and
31:35chief strategist at the Middle East
31:36forum, Jim Hansen. Well, welcome to all
31:38of you. General Clark, first of all,
31:40welcome for your first time in my studio
31:42here. Great to have you here as well.
31:44Um, you watched the interview, you've
31:46all watched the interview. What was your
31:48reaction?
31:49Well, I my reaction was I thought he uh
31:52he he gave you some really straight
31:53answers. He uh he couldn't tell you what
31:55the casualties were exactly. Didn't want
31:57to give away certain things. He was very
31:59clear about the need for Starlink. He's
32:01very concerned about US support. Uh he
32:04certainly didn't appreciate the uh the
32:07oil diesel deal. Um he would have gone
32:10along uh with the energy uh ceasefire
32:13[clears throat]
32:14and so forth and it's going to be very
32:16difficult to hold elections. I think
32:17those are all solid positions. And he
32:19said basically his objective is to get
32:21the war stopped. He didn't say he had to
32:23retake Crimea. He didn't say he had to.
32:25But he did say it's going to be very
32:27difficult for anyone to provide security
32:29and really keep Ukraine safe even when
32:32this is over. Uh and the implication is
32:35if Vladimir Putin's still there.
32:37>> What he said about President Trump was
32:39very interesting. I mean he he clearly
32:41believes he's been betrayed by President
32:44Trump in the last few days. first with
32:46this diesel deal with Putin flying in
32:48the face of the sanctions which Trump
32:50had had renewed only 21 days before uh
32:53but also of course with this issue of
32:56potentially Elon Musk's Starlink being
32:59turned off uh by SpaceX and the damage
33:02that's caused to their intelligence
33:04capabilities and their ability to thwart
33:06incoming missiles. And of course, this
33:08fact that Trump announced there's going
33:09to be an energy ceasefire and within
33:11hours Putin totally ignored it and
33:14attacked a load of Ukrainian energy uh
33:17areas. What do you think? I mean, I
33:20asked him a straight question. Can you
33:22win this without America? From a
33:24military perspective solely, General
33:26Clark, can the Ukrainians win without
33:28[clears throat]
33:29fullscale American support? Well, they
33:31don't have full-scale American support
33:33right now because uh we've got $400
33:35million tied up in uh in the US Congress
33:38that the president hasn't released. And
33:40uh you know uh we could have uh we could
33:43have diverted more air defense missiles
33:45there. We've given a few. And there's
33:47other things, but they do need American
33:50intelligence support. the ability to
33:53warn of missiles, the ability to monitor
33:55communications, the ability to target uh
33:58key uh Russian targets, command and
34:00control, especially in Donbos and and in
34:04the nearer part of the of Russia. Yeah,
34:06they do need that because there's no
34:08substitute for that. But uh they're
34:10getting a lot of support from Europe and
34:11especially strong moral and emotional
34:14support that uh is uh has been much more
34:18let's say nuanced coming from
34:20Washington.
34:20>> Right. Jim Hansen, welcome back to
34:22Uncensored. I got to say I was
34:24absolutely shocked and appalled frankly
34:28about the news of the deal the the
34:30diesel deal with Putin. Uh can you
34:33defend what President Trump has done
34:35there? Because obviously it's tokenism.
34:37the amount is negligible really. Um it's
34:41it's appears to be him wanting to say,
34:44"Hey, you know, I'm ready to do business
34:46with Russia again." But if you're
34:47Ukraine, you just feel like you've been
34:49thrown under a massive bus.
34:52I think President Trump is making a
34:54point as well that he has no confidence
34:56that Zalinski will lead Ukraine to
35:00peace. And he showed that in your
35:02interview. He said he's not going to
35:04seed a single kilometer of Ukrainian
35:07territory.
35:07>> Why should he?
35:09>> Because it's already taken. Russia's had
35:11it for almost five years. He can't take
35:14it back.
35:15>> Would you see Would you seed if America
35:17was invaded in a similar way? You know,
35:21>> let me let me sort look at that. No,
35:22Canada can't take territory from us
35:24because we'd kick their butt in an
35:26afternoon. [laughter]
35:27Let's put Russia's not our neighbor.
35:29Let's put Russia is if Russia is our
35:31neighbor. Hang on, Jim. Hang on one sec.
35:32Let's put the the the sort of, you know,
35:34the chest beating to one side for a
35:36moment. From a purely comparative point
35:39of view, if somebody decided to invade a
35:42chunk of the United States,
35:45>> are you telling me that a single
35:46American, well, obviously some would,
35:48but if you're telling me the vast
35:49majority of Americans would tolerate
35:52seeding any inch of American land, even
35:55if it took years in the way you're
35:57categorizing, they wouldn't. And nor
35:58would I in the UK. We had this with
36:00Hitler in World War II, right? Why on
36:02earth should the Ukrainians, even if
36:04they've currently lost land, why should
36:06they agree to give it up permanently to
36:09a bunch of Russian invaders?
36:11>> So, we should continue to fund this meat
36:14grinder that's been going on for 5 years
36:16now.
36:16>> World War II was a meat grinder and that
36:18went on for longer than this.
36:20>> Let me make my point, Pierce. They can't
36:23defeat Putin. They can't defeat Russia.
36:26Even with Europe's help, they can't push
36:28them out of the territory that Russia
36:30holds now
36:31>> because they haven't been able to and
36:32they they now have less chance than
36:35before. They're not going to get
36:36additional American support. So, they're
36:38going to have to make do with whatever
36:40Europe can. So, they cannot push them
36:42out. Now, we can continue to to let
36:45people die in this or they can face
36:47reality. I wouldn't like it, but we're
36:49not losing a war to Mexico. We're not
36:51losing a war to Canada. They are tied in
36:54a war with with Russia and that
36:56territory is already gone. And Putin's
36:59not going to take a loss. He wants to go
37:01down in history as one of the great
37:03Russian men. Losing a war to Ukraine
37:05doesn't do that. He'd rather be with
37:07Ivan the terrible, Catherine the Great,
37:09as Vlad the Vicious in whatever it takes
37:12to do that than lose to Ukraine, which
37:15if he does not keep the parts of the
37:17Donbass he has and the rest of that land
37:19bridge to Crimea, it's a loss. He's not
37:22going to do that. He can't be moved. So,
37:24it's Zullinsky and the Ukrainians who
37:26are going to have to face reality. They
37:28can't win and that war can't go on
37:30forever. If they want to fight it,
37:31they're going to do it without American
37:33support. And that was President Trump's
37:35point.
37:35>> Scott Horton, welcome back to you to
37:37Uncensored. Um, what was your view of
37:40what Zalinski said in that interview?
37:43>> Okay. Well, so there's a lot here, but
37:45first of all, I agree with what it's Jim
37:47I believe correct just said. This is the
37:50same thing, Pierce is, it's not a direct
37:53analogy in the situation, but morally
37:56it's the same thing as in Vietnam and
37:58Afghanistan where the enemy was the
38:01communists and the Taliban. And if you
38:04want to, you know, talk for an hour in
38:06purely moral terms, how sinful is it to
38:09turn over the poor people of South
38:11Vietnam or the people of North
38:14Afghanistan to the tender mercies of
38:16these terrible enemies? But the reality
38:18is they're going to win the war anyway.
38:19It's actually immoral to keep the war
38:21going for 10 years or 20 years and have
38:24all these hundreds of thousands or even
38:25in the case of Vietnam, millions of
38:27people die and then they lose anyway.
38:29And that's the same thing here. Jim is
38:31right that this is a fool's errand. It
38:33can't be done. The only thing that could
38:35truly turn the tide in this war, as
38:37General Clark knows, would be direct
38:39intervention by the United States Army,
38:42Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force. And we're
38:44not going to do that because that means
38:46thermonuclear war.
38:47>> But does it not part of you though,
38:49Scott? You know, this it's all very well
38:52us sitting here. You know, I'm I
38:53remember vividly getting the long
38:5512-hour train into key four months into
38:58that war. You know, being told to turn
38:59off all my devices and the lights in the
39:02cabin because if the Russians saw any
39:04lights or power, they might attack it
39:05and so on. Pretty, you know, pretty for
39:07me as civvy, it was a pretty
39:08uncomfortable uh 24 hours on a train, I
39:11can tell you. Um but I was struck then
39:13by Zalinski in particular by the
39:16extraordinary resolve he had. This is a
39:18guy who on the night it started everyone
39:20expected him to leave and instead he
39:22went on uh FaceTime video whatever it
39:25was on his phone and told the world I'm
39:27not going. And he has stood there as
39:29leader of that country for nearly 5
39:31years when everyone has been predicting
39:33the the fact that Russia would win and
39:35they haven't won and we've pretty well
39:37reached a kind of military stalemate.
39:40And what we're really talking about in
39:41any settlement would be the Donbass and
39:44what happens to it. And he, you know, I
39:46I I agree with him. Why the why the hell
39:49should they give up any territory, even
39:51if it's currently occupied by a bunch of
39:53invaders from Russia? Why should they
39:56give that up in any deal?
39:58>> Okay. Well, first of all, I'm
40:00sympathetic with him. He's in a
40:02difficult position there. I don't
40:03completely disdain the guy. He's no more
40:05corrupt than any national leader in the
40:07East or West, I don't guess. Um, and
40:09he's in a very difficult spot here. But
40:12of course, there's this huge moral
40:14hazard here where the Western Alliance,
40:17including the United States, still are
40:20backing his effort here in a hot war on
40:22Russia's border. That I hasten to remind
40:25you that all this moral talk about Adolf
40:27Hitler and all of this stuff completely
40:28obscures the fact that in fact Putin is
40:31not a, you know, enraged, you know, uh,
40:34insane ideologue like that. This is much
40:36more like wear Russia than Nazi Russia.
40:40And the fact that they have hydrogen
40:42bombs, Pierce, which means that the NATO
40:45alliance and the Russian Federation must
40:48not can not ever go to war. And that is
40:53a risk here. And you're talking about
40:54losing London permanently. Talking about
40:57losing Austin, Texas permanently over
41:00who controls Denipro Petro Provosque.
41:03And I'm sorry. No, I don't care about
41:05that. I'm not willing to get the United
41:08States into a war. Even Joe Biden.
41:10>> So, what if he Okay, so going to do
41:12that.
41:13>> Okay. So, what what else would you give
41:14Putin? Would you give him Poland if he
41:16decided to march in there? Would you?
41:18>> No. But look, see, come on.
41:20>> You think it's very unlikely? You think
41:22it's very unlikely? I say it's highly
41:24likely if we roll over to this guy, it's
41:27highly likely Putin, who never ever
41:29wanted the Soviet Union to break up. He
41:32wants this vast rambling empire and I
41:34reckon he'd go after he'd go after new
41:36places to take in a heartbeat if he
41:39sense we don't have the stomach for the
41:40fight.
41:41>> Now take
41:44>> I know you've read provoked Pierce and I
41:46debunk all that. All those quotes of
41:47Putin waxing on about the Soviet Union
41:49are all taken completely out of context.
41:52That's not what's going on here. This is
41:53really Donald Trump is right in that
41:55clip that you played to blame Joe Biden
41:57and for that matter to blame Barack
41:59Obama for the intervention in 2014 that
42:02overthrew the government and then
42:03sending John Brennan there immediately
42:05to start the war in the east. They did
42:08not do a full diplomatic push to
42:11compromise as the Washington Post
42:12recommended to compromise with the
42:14people of the east to prevent conflict.
42:16John Brennan the CIA guy went and
42:18started the war and then what did he do
42:20when Donald Trump won the election?
42:22Obama and Brennan framed Trump for
42:25treason with Russia which completely,
42:28you know, hampered him and as they put
42:30it, as the FBI put it, reigned him in
42:32and prevented him from adopting a more
42:35consiliatory policy when he could have
42:37ended the ongoing so-called civil war
42:39then. And instead, his entire first
42:41term, he was prevented from reconciling
42:44with Russia. And then the country and
42:46the world was turned over to the tender
42:48mercies of Joe Biden who absolutely
42:50ham-handedly stumbled the West into this
42:53war. And I do and I've told you before,
42:55Pierce, I do blame Vladimir Putin for
42:57this. He did not have to invade on the
42:5924th if he didn't on the 23rd or the
43:0120th. Okay. However, Joe Biden in 21
43:05continued to reiterate that, oh, we're
43:06bringing them into NATO. All right.
43:08You're damn right we are. and we're
43:09going to continue to standardize their
43:11military and make it essentially a de
43:13facto member of the NATO alliance. And
43:16there's nothing that the Russians can do
43:18about it. And no, we are not willing to
43:19negotiate their treaty in good faith
43:21because, as they said repeatedly, he
43:24we're going to do like Rambo 3 and we're
43:27going to lure them in and we're going to
43:29inflict upon them a strategic defeat. As
43:32Lindsey Graham said, Russians are dying
43:35and we our soldiers aren't dying. It's
43:37the great It's the best money we ever
43:39spent because we are overextending
43:43Russia. We're giving them an expensive
43:45problem where the Ukrainians and your
43:47morality play. The Ukrainians are just
43:49the club in America's hand that we're
43:51using against Russia here in a way to
43:54weaken them in an attempt to weaken
43:56China, which is completely ham-handed
43:58and also backfired. Right. We just push
44:00Russia even further into China's arms.
44:02>> Let me bring about any of this. Okay,
44:05General Clark, what's your response to
44:07what Scott has laid out there?
44:09>> Well, he's laid out a lot and it's a
44:12little hard to unpack it all to be
44:14honest, peers, but let's start with
44:15this. Uh, peace, general peace since the
44:20end of the Second World War has been
44:22built on principles. And one of those
44:24principles is you don't change borders
44:27by force. Uh what we learned from World
44:30War II is that if you don't stand up to
44:34potential aggression, uh appeasement
44:36doesn't work and so you've got to
44:38actually stop it. So uh what you're
44:41saying basically, Scott, is uh is uh you
44:45want after 5 years to continue
44:47appeasement and uh that's not a policy
44:50that's going to bring stability to
44:53Europe or the world. Everybody's
44:55watching this.
44:57>> [clears throat]
44:57>> they're saying is the principle of of
45:00not invading and crossing borders that
45:04kept major peace. There were fights,
45:07sure, but but that was the principle.
45:09We're going to just throw it out because
45:12that's the consequence of the argument
45:14that you're making.
45:16>> That's why Europe and the United States
45:17are standing strong behind Ukraine.
45:20>> Aggression should not be rewarded. It
45:23should be punished. And if you can't
45:26punish it, you got to at least stop it
45:29and and block it and block the
45:31objectives. And so the likely
45:34consequence of following the the thought
45:37train that that you're projecting there
45:38is a let's just give up on it. Okay. But
45:41then what happens is we know that's not
45:44the end of Vladimir Putin's ambition. We
45:46know he wants to restore control,
45:48Russian control over the nations of
45:50Eastern Europe and especially the
45:52>> completely wrong, General. I'm sorry,
45:54General Millie in November.
45:55>> I'm just answering
45:57so you're you're interrupting me, Scott.
46:01>> So I I did not interrupt 2022, General
46:04Millie told the Ukrainians, the chairman
46:07of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said, "You
46:09boys should quit while you're only this
46:10far behind." They had a great success in
46:13Harkke and Luhansk, and he said, "You
46:15should deal now because it's only going
46:16to get worse from here." So you can wax
46:19on about all this moralizing stuff, but
46:21all that's happened is hundreds and
46:22hundreds and hundreds of thousands of
46:24people have
46:25lost more strategy and they're probably
46:27going to now lose the military tactics
46:29and technology and a lot of things and
46:32throwing a lot of
46:34of word salad out there at the audience
46:37right now. Actually, what's happened is
46:40this is a war in which Ukraine has
46:43mobilized its population. The
46:45population's fully behind it. the United
46:48States has uh held back. We're not even
46:51explaining to the Russian people what's
46:54going on. Now, that was a decision that
46:56I disagree with that the Biden
46:58administration made, but they did make
47:00the decision that we won't take the
47:02so-called information war in to Russia.
47:05So, Putin has free play with the Russian
47:08people. They don't know the truth. And
47:11uh I don't think uh that you or others
47:14have the right to tell the Ukrainian
47:15people, give up on your country.
47:18>> They have the right to continue to
47:20fight. I've been there. I talked to many
47:22Ukrainians, including members of the
47:24government, soldiers, and others. They
47:26want their country.
47:27>> Yeah.
47:28>> And it's an important principle for the
47:30[clears throat] rest of us because if we
47:32uphold that principle, we have a better
47:34chance of preventing further war,
47:37greater destruction in the future. you
47:39know, and let me bring Jim in here. Hang
47:42on, Scott. Scott, every time I say
47:44something substantive, all I get is a
47:46bunch of moralizing and Adolf Hitler and
47:48principle and valor and all of this
47:50stuff. Why don't you talk about the fact
47:52that they're more likely to lose Odessa
47:54permanently now? They're more likely to
47:56lose the entire southwestern coast of
47:59Ukraine. But I would argue, Scott, okay,
48:01but Scott, I would argue with But Scott,
48:03I would I would argue they are much more
48:05likely to lose those things if they just
48:07roll over and let Putin take what he
48:10wants. That's what I think.
48:11>> Get a compromise on all of this.
48:13>> Let me bring Let me bring Jim in. You
48:15know, Jim, I I'm old enough to remember
48:161991 when Saddam Hussein invaded Q8.
48:20[snorts] That wasn't part of NATO.
48:22America had no great obligation to go
48:25and kick him out of Q8, but it did
48:26because it was the morally right thing
48:29to do and we all agreed with that and it
48:31was a very quick operation. And unlike
48:33the next Iraq war, which I thought was
48:35fought on a completely false premise and
48:37frankly illegal and indefensible, that
48:40one seemed to me a very clear-cut case
48:42of somebody invading another country and
48:44being kicked out by a uh a country
48:48predominantly American, but obviously
48:49helped by allies who just decided this
48:51was the wrong thing and they weren't
48:52going to let it happen. And for Donald
48:54Trump to be doing diesel deals right now
48:58with Vladimir Putin 21 days after he
49:01renews sanctions against Russia and
49:03basically throw the Ukrainians and Z and
49:06say he wants Zilinski out because he
49:07won't give up the Dombas 20% of his
49:10country to this marauding barbarian
49:12Putin. I I'm staggered that anyone on
49:15the conservative right who were
49:17unanimous about America doing the right
49:19thing with Q8, which wasn't even part of
49:22NATO or anywhere near anyone to do with
49:24NATO. I'm staggered that there are
49:26people on the conservative right in
49:28America cheering Trump on with this.
49:30He's doing deals with Putin. I mean, you
49:32should be outraged.
49:34I can I can respect Zalinski as a hero
49:37for Ukraine and being able to stand up
49:39to Russia for as long as he has, but as
49:41I pointed out, he can't win the war
49:43unless America intervenes. We've all
49:45agreed with that. So, he's not going to
49:47win the war.
49:48>> I haven't agreed to that. General Clark,
49:50so half the panel have not agreed with
49:52that.
49:52>> Okay, fine.
49:54>> I don't believe it's possible. Well,
49:55Zalinsky is delusional in that respect.
49:58But the point is as as a threat to the
50:01world, Russia and Saddam Hussein aren't
50:04even in the same league. They aren't
50:06even playing the same game. So whatever
50:08we did in Kuwait has nothing to do with
50:10dealing with the fact that Russia took
50:13the parts of of Ukraine it has and is
50:15going to keep them. And now we have to
50:17decide what's the US strategic.
50:19>> WHY DID WE OKAY, out of interest, why
50:21did why did America then attack Iraq
50:24after 9/11, which had nothing to do with
50:27Iraq? Why did they attack Iraq if the
50:29belief as we were told it was was that
50:32Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass
50:34destruction by your argument? Why would
50:36why would they have done that if they
50:38thought he had nuclear weapons? Because
50:39if that's the argument for not taking on
50:41Vladimir Putin
50:43VLADIMIR PUTIN WELLIN HOLD ON SCOTT, let
50:46me finish
50:49dude.
50:49>> Okay, but let me finish my point. Putin
50:51has thousands of nukes. We know that.
50:53But so does America. and America and the
50:55other nuclearpowered countries actually
50:57have marginally more than he does. He's
50:59not going to risk everything for a
51:01nuclear tear up with an equally
51:02well-armed opposition. But he might he
51:05might if he thinks America, which is a
51:08huge factor in all this, if America is
51:10moving to Russia's way, then God help
51:12us. So you think he's going the only
51:15places he can expand are into NATO
51:17countries. All right. Ukraine he's
51:19already fighting in. He's not he's
51:21friends with Bellerus. Every other
51:23country on his flank is a NATO country.
51:26So if he moves west at all, he brings
51:28the big dog off the porch because as
51:31many beefs as we have right now.
51:32>> Does he though? What would Trump do?
51:34What would President Trump do? Okay, so
51:37say he attacks one of the Say he attacks
51:39one of the Baltic countries or Poland or
51:40whatever it may be. Say he does that.
51:42Say he really is the next Hitler and he
51:44wants to invade Poland, right? Because
51:45he's got his gander up because we forced
51:47Ukraine to surrender. Say he does all
51:50that. Do you have any confidence that
51:51President Trump in that eventuality
51:54would do what you're suggesting?
51:56>> Of course he would. Because the point is
51:59that NATO is designed to be a trip wire
52:02that brings us into something that stops
52:05Russia from turning it back into the
52:07neosviet Union. All right? We will not
52:10tolerate that. And he knows that. And
52:12that's why Putin will not roll tanks
52:14going west. He hit Ukraine because it's
52:16not a NATO country and because he wanted
52:19Donbass and his land bridge and to
52:21solidify Crimea. That's a done deal. Now
52:24the question is what's the US strategic
52:26interest? Our strategic interest is in
52:28stopping the war from expanding and
52:30turning into World War II because Putin
52:32won't take a loss and it's from ensuring
52:35that the rest of the world doesn't
52:37suffer for a war that can't be won. Our
52:40blood and treasure, the energy
52:42implications and the rest of it. That
52:44war needs to end and that requires
52:46Zalinski and the Ukrainian people to
52:48understand there is not going to be a
52:51continuous flow of material and treasure
52:55to go ahead and continue a war that we
52:57do not believe they can.
52:59>> Okay. Uh Scott, you know what's
53:00interesting to me is that the American
53:04people remain supportive of Ukraine. So
53:06they're against what their president and
53:09current administration uh are believing.
53:11So they so Trump's administration do not
53:14represent the majority in America about
53:16Ukraine and they definitely don't
53:18represent the majority with the war on
53:20Iran. So you've got a very unusual
53:22situation here where you have an
53:23American president who is involved in
53:27various machinations around the world
53:29where he doesn't have the support of his
53:31people. That's unusual.
53:35>> Well, no. I mean, American foreign
53:37policy has nothing to do with the wishes
53:39of the American public at large. It's
53:41all just a faction fight over control of
53:43the empire. And so,
53:44>> but America's never gone to war before
53:46like it did with Iran, where from the
53:48start, the American people in all the
53:50polling were opposed to it and have got
53:51increasingly opposed to it. We've never
53:53seen that before.
53:56>> Uh yeah. Well, um it's unfortunate. you
53:58know, there was not public support for
54:00the war when um Bill Clinton and General
54:03Clark started an aggressive war against
54:05Serbia without a UN resolution and uh in
54:09order to break off Kosovo, a precedent
54:11which Vladimir Putin of course invoked
54:13in his declaration of war against
54:16Ukraine just as he invoked Bush's threat
54:18about WMD and Obama's pretention of
54:21protecting life in Libya to say that
54:23this is why he gets to cross these
54:24borders is America gets to rewrite the
54:28international law whenever we want and
54:30so um it's a matter of high principle.
54:33Um it's only high uh when it's the other
54:36guys who are who are violating it. Um
54:39but look the the fact of the matter is
54:41there's been a potential
54:44I'll bring you in when he's finished.
54:47>> Kushner and them have been have been
54:48talking about this right now and this is
54:50they've been there have been leaks like
54:51this. I think we discussed this on your
54:52show before Pierce. There have been
54:53leaks about a potential for Russia to
54:56settle for the current line of contact
54:59and so that would be essentially as Jim
55:01just said the land bridge to Crimea from
55:03Donbass AOV coast there. They control
55:06virtually all of Donesk. So it's almost
55:08a done deal at that point. And then but
55:10they would be forsaking or foregoing
55:12trying to take Zaprosia city uh and the
55:16last like third or or or more of
55:18Zaprosia as well as forgetting about the
55:21part of Kersan, the third of Kersan that
55:23is on the western side of the Neper
55:25River and essentially just calling it
55:27timeout where they have it now. That is
55:29the best case scenario for peace,
55:31stability, loss of life and whatever and
55:34for any potential to turn this thing
55:36around. It just makes no sense to say
55:38that because of principle and valor and
55:40honor that this thing should go the
55:42other way, therefore it will. And by the
55:44way, I really wish that you had asked
55:46him because this is a serious thing. I
55:47wish that you had asked Zinsky, what
55:49about Dmitri Yash from right sector who
55:52helped overthrow the government in 2014,
55:55who threatened to hang Zalinski from a
55:57tree on Crmaturk Street, the main drag
56:00in Kiev. I'm sure I'm pronouncing that
56:01wrong. Forgive me. uh if he would dare
56:03to negotiate a peace with Russia and is
56:06he afraid of the radical right inside
56:09his military such as Andrew Bleki the
56:11leader of the third army corps who's
56:12leading the vivaldi campaign right now
56:14he's the author of the book the word of
56:16the white leader and the author of the
56:18speech Ukrainian racial social
56:22nationalism and he's the guy who said
56:24he's leading the white race against the
56:26semitic le unment mention and is the
56:29third or fourth most popular political
56:31figure in Ukraine right now and has made
56:33his political ambitions absolutely
56:35clear. And is Zilinsky afraid? I think
56:38he is afraid that these Hitlerian Nazis,
56:41these avowed Hitlerian supremacists
56:45would shoot him in the head to death if
56:47he would dare compromise. And how much
56:49of a disincentive is that to him to
56:52compromise in this war?
56:53>> Okay. Um, General Clark, just the point
56:56that Scott made about Serbia and what
57:00NATO did there. What's your response
57:02first to that?
57:04>> Bill Clinton put it best, I think. He
57:06said, "When you can make a difference,
57:08you should." So, in 1994
57:12in the African country of Rwanda, we
57:16stood by and watched 800,000 or 900,000
57:20people hacked to death, children thrown
57:23down wells, uh heads cut off with
57:26machetes. We could have intervened. We
57:28could have made a difference. Maybe we
57:30didn't understand it fully at the time.
57:32I was in the joint staff when I finally
57:35understood it, not as it was going on.
57:38We didn't really have good enough
57:40intelligence. We saw some pictures. We
57:42heard some stories, but it it really
57:44took months afterwards before reporters
57:47came in on the ground and really talked
57:49to people and we saw what had been done.
57:51It was horrendous. And I think all of us
57:53at that time recognized we're not going
57:55to let this happen again. So the United
57:57Nations tried to stop the slaughter that
58:00began in Bosnia in 1992
58:03and they weren't very effective. And so
58:06when it picked up momentum in 1995,
58:10uh we started a negotiation process. We
58:12backed it with NATO troops. And then
58:14again in 1998 it started again in a part
58:18of Serbia known as Kosovo. I went down
58:21talked to Mallovich three times. I asked
58:24him not to do this. I talked to the Serb
58:26generals. They said, "You're not going
58:27to. These people are just fighting for
58:29their rights. They're not terrorists.
58:31They just want to have a school with
58:32their own language. They want to have
58:34people from their own community in the
58:36police force." All that's been taken
58:38away from them. They're being enslaved
58:40in this uh province of of Kosovo.
58:43And uh and the Russians came in and
58:46said, "Don't pay any attention to it. If
58:47you want to wipe them out, just wipe
58:49them out." And uh and so that's what
58:51started it. So we had warned Melovich
58:54not to do this. We saw the experience
58:57from Rwanda. We saw it in Bosnia. And uh
59:01the global opinion and the opinion of uh
59:04NATO was you can't permit another such
59:08slaughter. Now I have a problem right
59:11now. Now just
59:14>> we've got a lot of time on this show.
59:16Give me a chance to talk. I have a
59:18problem with the Biden administration
59:20because although they certainly warned
59:22the Europeans uh that they uh that this
59:25attack was coming uh they didn't provoke
59:28it in except by being weak. And so as it
59:33started the Biden administration and
59:36NATO made perfectly clear that they
59:38wouldn't intervene to stop Putin. They
59:42set up an an equation in which Ukraine
59:45was more or less more or less left by
59:48itself. Uh I went to the White House by
59:51phone. I talked to people there. I said,
59:52"Look, uh you say you believe in in in
59:55an international rules-based order."
59:57Well, if that's the case, this is
59:59Ukrainian airspace. This is airspace
1:00:03that if Ukraine says bring in aircraft
1:00:07that we have the right to do it, Ukraine
1:00:08has the right to ask for it. Instead,
1:00:11NATO stood back. The Biden
1:00:13administration, of course, was behind
1:00:15this and saying, "Oh, no, no, no. We
1:00:17don't want to do anything with the
1:00:18Russians." The time to have stopped it
1:00:20was then, but we didn't have the
1:00:23courage. We had a different group of
1:00:24people in leadership. They didn't have
1:00:26the same experience that those of us in
1:00:28the 1990s went through. And so, u the
1:00:31argument of using Ukrainian airspace
1:00:33became, "Oh, uh, like a no-fly zone, and
1:00:36then you're going to going to have to
1:00:38bomb Russia or something." It was a
1:00:40deliberate effort not to face up to the
1:00:43reality of what Vladimir Putin stood
1:00:45for. We learned in the 1990s and uh
1:00:49Chancellor uh NATO secretary general um
1:00:53uh rec recognized uh Manford Verer that
1:00:57if NATO wants to be safe and secure, it
1:01:01cannot hide behind its borders. It has
1:01:04to reach out of area and we failed to do
1:01:08that effectively immediately in Ukraine.
1:01:12We proaricated, we delayed, we
1:01:15postponed, we tried to dodge the issue
1:01:18because of fear of Vladimir Putin and we
1:01:21built him up.
1:01:22>> He was a mouse when he started this by
1:01:25going into Georgia
1:01:27>> instead of saying to Vladimir Putin,
1:01:30"Get out of Georgia. How dare you invade
1:01:32another country?" Uh we sent the French
1:01:35president in Sarco who uh said well okay
1:01:39you can keep a quarter of Georgia and we
1:01:41won't check on you anymore and every
1:01:44year they move the barbwire and take a
1:01:46little more of Georgia.
1:01:47>> Exactly. And then they learn from they
1:01:50taken the dumbbat and still was supposed
1:01:52to think he won't take anymore. Of
1:01:54course he will. This is what a scorpion
1:01:56does to a frog. Let me bring
1:01:58>> Are you really going to pretend that
1:01:59Russia just started that war against
1:02:01Georgia in August 2008? Georgia attacked
1:02:04and killed Russian peacekeepers in South
1:02:06Oetia trying to retake South Oetia and
1:02:09then Russia responded and did
1:02:11recommended missile strikes on the
1:02:13>> actually happened that way Scott what
1:02:15actually happened is it was a false
1:02:17flag. It was a provocation by Russia
1:02:20looking for trouble. Vladimir Putin. No,
1:02:24Vladimir Putin saw the power that he had
1:02:27and Vladimir Putin figured a way to draw
1:02:30him in so he could then make the
1:02:32military argument and go after him. Uh,
1:02:35but I don't understand why, you know, a
1:02:37man like you who has fought for the
1:02:39United States and cares about the United
1:02:41States and obviously you believe we're
1:02:43very very powerful because you think
1:02:45that uh, you know, we should be
1:02:47determining the fate of other people who
1:02:48are fighting for their own country as
1:02:50though we have the moral authority to do
1:02:52that. Why do you then take take Putin's
1:02:55side of everything? I I don't understand
1:02:57it. I hear these people who are
1:03:00so-called realists in foreign policy and
1:03:03what they do is they look at the past
1:03:05and they say, "Well, a powerful country
1:03:07won." Yes. But that's not the future.
1:03:10The future is what kind of country what
1:03:12kind of world do we want? Do we want a
1:03:15world in which the mighty step over
1:03:18others? Do we want a world run by a
1:03:20couple of dictators? No. You don't want
1:03:23to live in that country. You fought for
1:03:25your country in freedom. I want to bring
1:03:27I want to give I want to give
1:03:29>> Jim has been very Jim has been very
1:03:31patient here. Jim I just [laughter] want
1:03:33>> he asked me a direct question and he
1:03:34totally mischaracterized I never said
1:03:37anything about
1:03:39>> I never said anything about America
1:03:41should force Ukraine to do this or that.
1:03:43He's the one saying that the government
1:03:44ought to tax me and all the rest of my
1:03:46fellow Texans and force us to
1:03:48participate in this war for a foreign
1:03:50nation which is an entirely separate
1:03:52question uh and is not what I was
1:03:54saying. And also, by the way, you know,
1:03:57all his talk about, oh no, it was too
1:03:58much appeasement, too much weakness.
1:04:00Well, Zack Dorfman from Yahoo News had
1:04:02CIA officers before the war in January
1:04:05or February of 22. CIA officers in
1:04:08charge of receiving and distributing the
1:04:10arms in Ukraine. Told Zack Dorfman,
1:04:13they're calibrating this wrong. They're
1:04:15not deterring the Russians. They're
1:04:16provoking them. And we're trying to tell
1:04:19the bosses to tell the White House to
1:04:21stop sending arms now. Now you're just
1:04:24making war more likely. Maybe you could
1:04:26imagine a situation where pouring in
1:04:28arms is going to deter them up to some
1:04:30certain ratio. I don't know. But the CIA
1:04:33officers on the ground at the time said
1:04:35this is backfiring. We're going to cause
1:04:37the war. I guess they're just appeasers
1:04:39to the CIA officers are just taking the
1:04:41side of Vladimir Putin instead of just
1:04:43being wiser than people like you,
1:04:45General Clark, who would cause a million
1:04:47something people to be killed over an
1:04:50idiotic battle over who controls the
1:04:52Dawnbass. Okay. I don't think it's well
1:04:55I don't think it's an idiotic battle to
1:04:57for Ukraine to want to keep Ukraine. Let
1:04:59me bring in Jim for the final word here.
1:05:00Jim, you'd be very patient. Thank you.
1:05:02Um although it's been a fascinating
1:05:04debate, I have to say.
1:05:05>> If I could take you back, Jim, to just
1:05:07before President Trump won his second
1:05:09term in office, and I was speaking to
1:05:11him before, during, and after I spoke to
1:05:12him the morning that he won. Um and he
1:05:15was full of like, you know, we're going
1:05:16to do this, this, and this. Very
1:05:18positive. He hit the ground running with
1:05:19an amazing array of executive orders,
1:05:22many of which were very popular. He shut
1:05:24the border pretty much to all illegal
1:05:26immigrants pouring in there. A lot of
1:05:29things were going well. But if I if I
1:05:31said to you as we as we come up to the
1:05:33midterm elections that he would end up
1:05:38waging a pretty disastrous war with Iran
1:05:42uh which had an enormously negative
1:05:45impact on American cost of living for
1:05:48ordinary Americans particularly at the
1:05:51gas pump and so on. uh and that he'd end
1:05:53up siding with Vladimir Putin on a
1:05:57little dirty diesel deal which made no
1:06:00sense other than basically putting his
1:06:01hand up saying I'm with Vlad now against
1:06:03Ukraine which is how most people have
1:06:05perceived it to be. What would you have
1:06:07said to me if I'd said to you this this
1:06:09is what he's actually going to do
1:06:10because I've known Trump a long time and
1:06:12I'm slightly flabbergasted about what
1:06:15I've watched. I didn't understand why he
1:06:18got talked into going to war in Iran by
1:06:20Netanyah is what I think happened. I
1:06:23don't understand why he hasn't tried to
1:06:26get out of it. Now he can see the
1:06:27catastrophic effect on American cost of
1:06:29living. And I just was apoplelectic when
1:06:32I heard about this diesel deal. So what
1:06:34are you doing, Donald Trump? Why would
1:06:37you want to be perceived as a guy
1:06:39getting into bed with Putin right now?
1:06:42Well, look, you're looking at the actual
1:06:44acts, not the plan behind them.
1:06:46President Trump's entire foreign policy
1:06:49is based around the idea that America is
1:06:52not the world's policemen anymore. We
1:06:54are not going to intervene in every
1:06:56single place where there are bad. We
1:06:59can't.
1:07:00>> Why? Because
1:07:00>> Iran was building nuclear weapons. They
1:07:02had a plan. And we were told this time,
1:07:04we were told last year that that had all
1:07:06been put back decades,
1:07:08>> 12 years and they started trying to
1:07:10bring it back. The second they do that,
1:07:12>> we went from they hadn't given up
1:07:15>> to 8 months.
1:07:16>> They hadn't given up. So what what he
1:07:17did, he took the political risk, which
1:07:20is less than the strategic risk of
1:07:23allowing a nuclear armed Iran.
1:07:24>> So America is being a world policeman
1:07:26then. Exactly what you said it should
1:07:28be.
1:07:28>> If the case is stopping nation, stopping
1:07:30rogue nations run by tyrannical It's
1:07:33called being a world policeman.
1:07:34>> Armageddon like it is. Okay. Okay. We'll
1:07:36be a world policeman if someone's going
1:07:38to join the nuclear club. Who wants
1:07:39>> I can't think of a more classic example
1:07:41of America being a global policeman.
1:07:44>> We're not going to do it in places.
1:07:48Donald Trump didn't want to do it.
1:07:50You're right. But he ends up becoming
1:07:51the global policeman on the biggest
1:07:54possible war in the Middle East. And
1:07:55it's caused a lot.
1:07:57>> It's caused mayhem.
1:07:58>> Can I can I finish the point about what
1:08:01his plan is? We don't want to be the
1:08:03world's policeman. When forced, we will
1:08:05act in US interests. It's in US
1:08:08interests to not have a nuclear armed
1:08:10Iraq. Now, let's go back to the Ukraine.
1:08:13It is not. The Ukrainian borders are not
1:08:15a US strategic interest. Not being in a
1:08:18war with Russia is a US strategic
1:08:20interest. Making sure that NATO remains
1:08:23a deterrent to war and tries to
1:08:26>> sucking up to Vladimir Putin in
1:08:28America's national interest. Maybe if
1:08:30you if you can't get Zalinski to make
1:08:32peace, somebody has to. So the this was
1:08:35not about sucking up to Putin. It was
1:08:37sending a message to Zalinsky, which he
1:08:39made perfectly clear when he said that
1:08:40Ukraine needs a new president if he's
1:08:42not going to make peace.
1:08:45>> But what he means by what he means by
1:08:47making peace and we got to wrap things
1:08:48unfortunately, but what he means by
1:08:50making peace with the situation with
1:08:52Ukraine is he expects Zilinski to roll
1:08:55over and give Vladimir Putin what he's
1:08:57taken. And I'm afraid I am absolutely
1:09:00with Zalinski and Ukraine on this and
1:09:03totally against what Donald Trump wants
1:09:05him to do. Why the hell should they give
1:09:07up a fifth of their country to an
1:09:09invading?
1:09:10>> It's already gone. They're not giving it
1:09:12up. It's been taken. [laughter]
1:09:15They can't take it back.
1:09:16>> History is littered with territory that
1:09:18was taken and then reclaimed,
1:09:20>> right?
1:09:20>> Well, then good luck. I wish Ukraine
1:09:22could do it.
1:09:23>> I do wish them good luck. You know what
1:09:24they need? They needed a bit of back and
1:09:26resolve from um from from America who is
1:09:29the global policeman when it suits it.
1:09:31And thank God they are when it's the
1:09:33right thing to do. Anyway, look, we got
1:09:35to leave it there of war with the
1:09:37Russian Federation and hydrogen bombs.
1:09:40You know, the Nagasaki bomb, the
1:09:42>> very familiar with it.
1:09:44>> Why would Russia get involved? Why would
1:09:46Russia get involved in a nuclear
1:09:48shooting match when it would lose
1:09:50immediately?
1:09:51>> Well, we would all lose immediately.
1:09:53>> Exactly. So why would they do it? Why
1:09:55would they do it?
1:09:55>> Why would they do it? They're not
1:09:56they're not nihilistic fundamentalists
1:09:58who want to kill themselves.
1:10:00>> Show me the Russians who wanted to kill
1:10:02themselves for the cause. They don't.
1:10:04>> Right. Reason they won't invade agree
1:10:07that the Russians lose the war, that
1:10:09could lead to a general war between NATO
1:10:11and the Russian Federation. And you know
1:10:13it.
1:10:13>> Well, you know what? The day we stop
1:10:15standing up to dictators, because you
1:10:16know what? If if if we
1:10:18>> because they got 7,000 H bombs in a
1:10:21border dispute over the D.
1:10:22>> What would you have done? What would you
1:10:23have done with Adolf Hitler 39?
1:10:25>> Lenon laid this out. Lenon laid this out
1:10:28in the 1920s. He said push until you
1:10:32meet resistance and then back off.
1:10:35>> Yeah.
1:10:36>> Until there's resistance, Putin is going
1:10:38to continue to push. And if you want
1:10:42your that's what's going on.
1:10:43>> And I I actually do I do think he's the
1:10:45nearest thing to a modern day Hitler and
1:10:46I think Zilinski was right to say that.
1:10:48>> Listen, that's another thing. You know
1:10:50what? Nora is Hitler and Saddam is
1:10:52Hitler and Mallovich is Hitler and Putin
1:10:55is Hitler. It sounds to me like Adolf
1:10:57was just another Hitler. And apparently
1:11:00any country that America doesn't like,
1:11:02we can just start an aggressive war
1:11:03against them because they're all the
1:11:04same as that one guy that one time. What
1:11:06a bunch of crap. And I know you know
1:11:08better than that, Pierce. Vladimir Putin
1:11:10is a center-right conservative. He is
1:11:12not a national socialist like Andre
1:11:15Bitki, the leader of the Third Army
1:11:16Corps in Ukraine.
1:11:18>> I think he's an absolutely despicable
1:11:21evil dictator. And I wish more people in
1:11:24America agreed with me and General Clark
1:11:27about
1:11:28>> saying he's not all the way to the
1:11:29right.
1:11:29>> I think the majority of people in
1:11:30America do agree.
1:11:31>> I think they do. That's the weird
1:11:33position we're now in. You only have to
1:11:35look at the consequences of of what
1:11:37happened in the immediate aftermath of
1:11:39the first invasion in 2022 in BHA where
1:11:44innocent civilian was captured,
1:11:46tortured,
1:11:48murdered for no reason. And and but it
1:11:52wasn't an accident. Actually, there was
1:11:53a reason because the instructions given
1:11:55to the Russian soldiers were to do
1:11:57everything you can to destroy the
1:11:59civilian population, breaks, frighten
1:12:01them, and break their will.
1:12:02>> Break their psyche. And to Ukrainians
1:12:05great credit, they've refused to have
1:12:07their will broken. And when I interview
1:12:08Zalinski, which I do I do quite
1:12:11regularly. When I interview him, I see a
1:12:12man whose resolve has not been broken by
1:12:15f nearly five years of war. And I admire
1:12:18that in him. He's their Churchill in
1:12:21many ways. And I I think we owe him
1:12:23collectively a debt of gratitude for
1:12:26standing up to Putin. Otherwise, I dread
1:12:28to think what Putin would do if we just
1:12:29rolled over. Anyway, we're going to
1:12:30leave it there. Scott, you and I agree
1:12:32about most things. We haven't today, but
1:12:34that's the beauty of Uncensored. We We
1:12:36are a freespirited debate platform and
1:12:39we can agree to disagree and I always
1:12:41love having you guys on. Thank you all
1:12:43very much indeed.
1:12:44>> Thank you so much, Pearson. Thank you.
1:12:48>> Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly
1:12:50independent. The only boss around here
1:12:51is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for
1:12:54only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on
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1:12:59Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcast.
1:13:01And in return, we will continue our
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1:13:05entertain. And we'll do it all for free.
1:13:08Independent, uncensored media has never
1:13:10been more critical, and we couldn't do
1:13:12it without you.

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