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EXCLUSIVE: Ian Maxwell talks about his sister Ghislaine's trial, meeting Epstein, & much more — Transcript

by JAY BEECHER · 8,369 words · 1,510 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00so every now and then you might see
0:02a lady pop around the corner just don't
0:04worry attention
0:06or something
0:07all right take it away yeah let's go so
0:10we'll start with um your family life so
0:13what was yours and gilan's childhood
0:16like and where you and your siblings
0:17close growing up
0:20um
0:21the
0:23it's important that you understand that
0:25we were originally nine
0:27children
0:28uh in this family there was an eldest
0:31brother michael
0:33uh and there was a little girl karine
0:35and they died
0:37young
0:38karine died in
0:401957 age three from leukemia and michael
0:44who was the eldest son
0:46was in a terrible car crash
0:48that
0:50didn't kill him but left him in a coma
0:53for eight years and he never recovered
0:55and died
0:56and so what that meant is that the
1:00little girl was exactly between me and
1:03my
1:04twin sisters and so instead of having a
1:07natural bridge the family in a sense
1:09split into two because the age gap
1:11between me and my twin sisters is six
1:13years and therefore kevin and i and
1:16gillan
1:17were very close
1:18as children
1:20and my four elder brothers and sisters
1:23were very close and obviously as we grew
1:24up in age we we became equally close but
1:29uh in terms of our childhood kevin and i
1:31and guilin were closest in age i'm six
1:33years older than her or five and a bit
1:36and uh three years older than my brother
1:39and so we spent quite a bit of time
1:41together although we were educated uh
1:45separately
1:46and um
1:48so i've got pretty clear memories of
1:52childhood with gilen
1:54she was a funny little thing uh she was
1:56very funny that was a key thing he has
1:59always been quite funny she had a very
2:00good sense of humor
2:02and uh in terms of
2:05things that we did together um you know
2:08we gathered about she was in the same
2:10bedroom as kevin and i for at least the
2:12first three years of our life
2:14uh there's one anecdote that sticks in
2:16my mind um
2:18is that we kevin and i quickly
2:21understood that the way to shock our
2:23parents was to use swear words which
2:25generally got a cuff around the ear hole
2:28and so we thought if we could avoid
2:31cuffing we would teach these words to
2:33guillen because she was too small to be
2:35cuffed
2:36and one day
2:37she's held in the arms of my mother my
2:40father's next to her and some
2:43worthy oxford college head
2:46head of braised nose from memory turns
2:48up and says
2:49and who is this adorable little thing to
2:52which gilen said piss off
2:57what's the hell over my father don't
2:59know where to go
3:00anyway so she's always had a sense of
3:02humor she always
3:04even as a young child uh loved animals
3:07she had uh dogs and
3:10cats and some budgies hamster and the
3:13pony
3:14my father was rich and uh could afford
3:17to give her these things
3:19uh i thought she was perhaps a little
3:21spoiled because that's what happens when
3:23you're the youngest of the family
3:25and also because
3:27her
3:28the day of her birth which was christmas
3:30day 1961
3:33was only two days before my brother
3:35michael's car accident
3:37and
3:37uh
3:39this traumatized the whole family
3:40desperately my parents didn't know where
3:42to go they were lost in grief
3:44and guillen uh was to some sense in some
3:47sense ignored really very early
3:49months of her life
3:51even the first year or two and um
3:54there's another story told about it that
3:55at one point h i think some two and a
3:57half three something like this she stood
4:00in front of our mother
4:02legs apart and said mommy
4:04i exist
4:06so
4:07it's an amazing idea for a child
4:10so there may have been some compensation
4:12on the part of my parents
4:14man i felt guilty about about that kind
4:16of stuff
4:18um so that's
4:19roughly
4:21my my kind of encapsulated
4:24answer
4:25what was she like as a teenager growing
4:27up
4:29uh she
4:31was i think she was quite protected by
4:34my father um
4:37and
4:38you know who
4:40very aware that you know she was quite
4:43a young
4:44thing and a a girl with it and uh
4:47following the accent of our brother
4:50all of the all of my older brothers and
4:52sisters were kind of corralled they
4:54couldn't go anywhere from you know they
4:56had to be escorted everywhere and my
4:58parents were really just so worried i'm
5:00going to lose another child in some
5:01horrible way so kingdom was in some
5:04senses quite protected she went
5:07to quite a few schools boarding schools
5:09and
5:10day schools
5:12but she grew up pretty independent
5:14uh able to think for herself do her own
5:17stuff
5:18one incident i remember
5:20like
5:21yesterday and that is uh i i'd gone on
5:24to uh
5:26to university at oxford we lived in oak
5:29so that was where our family home was
5:30and so it was down the road for me
5:33and um one on sunday afternoon i guess
5:36gilan would have been 16 17 years old
5:40that telephone rings in my parents home
5:43i'm
5:44i just i was about to get the phone and
5:46i noticed that my father picked it up
5:49uh
5:50and the conversation went something like
5:51this who are you
5:54jones
5:55how old are you
5:57uh yes
5:58you want to speak to my sister you're
6:00too you're to my daughter you're too old
6:02for my daughter
6:04[Music]
6:08that was the end of that she ended up
6:10going to spend um
6:12uh quite a few months in spain in her
6:15year off between um
6:17university and uh and school
6:20she always had a lot of good friends
6:22mostly girls
6:24mostly a lot of very strong close
6:27girlfriends whom she has remained with
6:29friends with to this day
6:31that's good no that is good and
6:33what was it like so you obviously both
6:35grew up with a father who was in the
6:36public eye um very well known man how
6:40how did that affect your childhood and
6:42teenage years and demons
6:46um i think i can
6:48i can best answer that the following way
6:50uh my father
6:52really lived for work
6:53he was i'm just workaholics not quite
6:56the right way but that he didn't have
6:58any small chat this wasn't a man
7:00interested in the minutiae of you know
7:02could i meant
7:04what football team was winning or
7:06he was interested in work and in matters
7:09of consequence and of substance
7:12and we were brought up in this way
7:15we had lots of advantages because
7:19uh he could afford to give us those
7:21advantages the most important which was
7:23a damn good education
7:25and he took the view if you if i give
7:28you this education and i give you other
7:31things uh to make your life comfortable
7:33you owe
7:35society
7:36something back for that in other words
7:38this wasn't just a question of take take
7:40take you got to give something back
7:42and uh
7:43he therefore taught us
7:45from very very young the
7:47responsibilities associated with having
7:50wealth and opportunity
7:52and as a result of his professional
7:55life which was both political and
7:57business there wasn't a sunday in our
7:59childhood where we didn't have
8:02some big shots for lunch i mean there
8:04won't be much to you now but these were
8:05some very serious scientists and maybe
8:07some labor government figures from the
8:09from the 60s
8:11and the children were expected to have
8:14something to say for themselves know
8:15what was going on in the world make
8:17speeches at the drop of a hat entertain
8:19the
8:20our father's guests and so on that was
8:22standard and actually it was exhausting
8:26because we would want to come home on a
8:27weekend from school and chill and just
8:30have a nice time and that he was not in
8:32the let's have a nice time business you
8:34know i've got here the deputy leader of
8:36the labour party you're going to sit
8:38with him and have a drink and don't hit
8:40myself so it was a bit
8:42um it was that was quite pressured
8:45and if we
8:46displeased him in some way and that was
8:48very easy we brought back bad results
8:51uh we armed a nerd instead of giving a
8:54straight answer to a straight question
8:56we didn't have anything
8:58any program to keep ourselves occupied
9:00bang you were you were in trouble
9:02and you know sometimes it was serious uh
9:05if you call if we lied to him and at
9:07least i was going to discover that
9:09i was belted uh
9:11and uh guillen would have been smacked
9:14not that often but that's the way he was
9:16brought up and that's the way
9:18the kind of stuff that we had to deal
9:20with
9:20so it was pretty
9:22it was pretty heavy
9:24i would say but at the same time
9:28he loved us i was never an only doubt of
9:30my father's love and nor was my sister
9:34he had lost everything in his life as a
9:38as a young man his parents were killed
9:40in the holocaust most of his siblings
9:43were put in the gas chambers
9:45uh so his entire family was wiped out he
9:48had nothing nothing and uh he ended up
9:52having to
9:53fight his way across europe joined the
9:54british army had a good wall
9:56but he built everything from
9:59scratch so family meant a hell of a lot
10:02to him in fact was there anything that
10:04didn't mean anything really to him
10:06and uh he never let us forget it
10:09and uh so i would say it was a good
10:11childhood we had lots of presents
10:14holidays
10:15nice time but
10:16it it was you were never in any doubt
10:19that life was more important than having
10:21a good time yeah
10:23that's nice so he instilled you with
10:25good ethics one of the um
10:28i think that personally the the media
10:31and the press at the time obviously
10:32hounded your father um
10:35it could be argued quite unfairly how
10:37did that s um
10:39mould your view of the british press or
10:42the the international press in general
10:44that's an interesting question uh
10:47my
10:47father had had an interest in the press
10:50uh since the war he was the uh
10:54allied press officer in berlin uh during
10:57the
10:58uh in working for the control commission
11:01uh after the war this was uh uh
11:04the administrative uh
11:06um administration that britain set up to
11:08run germany or the occupied part of
11:11germany that it was responsible for post
11:12war my father was in charge of
11:14press relations so he had an early
11:16exposure to the press
11:18and then uh
11:20he met some of germany's publishers and
11:23and then learned very quickly
11:25about
11:26the importance of science
11:28and that them of science publishing and
11:30and made his way in the world
11:33and then
11:34he had a number of cracks at uh buying
11:36newspapers in britain news the world sun
11:40losing and
11:42losing on each occasion to rupert
11:44murdoch
11:46and um
11:47eventually gets the mirror uh in 1984
11:51but during the whole of our childhood um
11:55you know he was an mp from 1964 to 1970
11:59and
12:00there was this brilliant period of his
12:02life really up until about
12:041968 i would say he was a pergamon had
12:07been taken that was his scientific
12:08publishing business had been taken
12:10public he was a very very wealthy man
12:13multi-millionaire
12:14he was a labor mp
12:17um you know he was somebody
12:19who was a coming man and then
12:21uh he made a disastrous
12:23absolutely disastrous sale of
12:26the bulk of his shares to an american
12:29financier which then caused
12:32the whole of that takeover to be
12:35scrutinized the very first public
12:37company take over by the then new
12:40uh takeover emerges panel
12:42uh he was excoriated
12:44um
12:45and a famous judgment was passed on him
12:48that he was a man not fit and proper to
12:50be steward of a public company which
12:51dogged him to the end of his life
12:54and suddenly
12:56uh
12:57life was not so rosy anymore i remember
12:59my parents were thinking they should
13:01take me out of school because the press
13:03was so bad so if you like the good press
13:06bad press it goes back a long way in my
13:08life certainly to
13:101970
13:11uh and
13:13i
13:14my father was always very
13:16um
13:17not quite easy come easy go but he had a
13:20clear understanding that you know if
13:22you've got to go ahead in the world the
13:23press is on your side if you if you
13:26choose to uh fight them
13:28he was a famous phrase
13:30when he was running a newspaper and
13:32somebody wanted to have a pop at him he
13:34said be careful
13:36what you're doing
13:37uh
13:38taking on uh a newspaper owner because i
13:41buy ink by the barrel
13:43and i will have the last word and
13:46he often did but it meant that we were
13:49quite scarred by some of this uh
13:51negative publicity and it was very very
13:53bad
13:54um and then he went on to have a very uh
13:58he had a really a renaissance of his
14:00business life and went on to achieve
14:03some very great things including the
14:04purchase of the mirror and purchase of
14:05mcmillan in the united states and
14:08football clubs and certainly bought
14:10lots of things
14:13but
14:14he was quite protective of us not
14:17withstanding all of that and i knew from
14:19the word go that i didn't really want to
14:21be in this limelight i didn't seek
14:25that i know guillen didn't either and we
14:27felt really kind of embarrassed by the
14:29whole thing and
14:31it's not for us
14:32so i i mean i was a bit ambivalent about
14:35it
14:36um although i thought my father had was
14:38on the rough end of a lot of a lot of
14:42attacks and some of which i think were
14:43anti-semitic looking back on it
14:46um which were very unpleasant
14:49but eventually
14:50he had one saying which was
14:53you know
14:54sticks and stones may break my bones but
14:57words will never hurt me and say he was
14:59he had an astonishing
15:01hide of a rhinoceros and he could he
15:03would ride that out
15:05and um
15:07you know if you're a young and uh
15:09and easily influenced it's not so it's
15:12not so obvious how you write it down you
15:13take these things to heart he didn't he
15:15may have done but he didn't show it yeah
15:17that's the key
15:19and so he obviously taught you to go
15:21not necessarily your separate ways but
15:23as you said as you've said to go and
15:25give back to society um so which you did
15:27you you paved a successful career um
15:31did you keep in touch with your siblings
15:33so were your families still close i know
15:35that obviously you do different things
15:37but
15:38well following the uh my father's death
15:41of the
15:42uh
15:43you know the explosion of our business
15:45and uh and then kevin and i my younger
15:48brother were
15:49uh arrested
15:50um charged with conspiracies as a fraud
15:53we had a
15:54long long fight to
15:57get to trial at last three or four years
15:59of preparation and so on
16:01and then
16:02an eight-month trial and we were
16:04exonerated at the end of it during that
16:07entire time
16:08all of our family were highly supportive
16:11and remained
16:12so and also to this day
16:14we don't know any other way than to
16:16support each other when you've had an
16:18alpha male like bob maxwell as your
16:20father in some senses there's an old
16:23arabic proverb it says
16:25i against my brother my brother and i
16:27against our cousins my brother and i and
16:29our cousins against the world so it's
16:32another way of saying blood is thicker
16:33than water so yes
16:35we have remained close
16:37at all times and we don't need to be
16:39living in the same country or even the
16:40same town to remain close
16:43uh you know i think it's
16:45we were broadly aware of the important
16:47things going on in each other's lives if
16:49not the detail you know we know you know
16:52you're getting out with x or you're
16:53living in y or you're doing x or z or
16:55whatever it is
16:57that's fine so long as you're not
16:58hearing anything bad it's probably good
17:02and and so what about the path
17:05you say obviously you've you sort of
17:06kept in touch and you knew bits and bobs
17:08um what did you understand the path that
17:11galen took to be a career in her
17:12lifestyle
17:15jay you'll have to repeat that slowly
17:18no um so tell me a bit about her the
17:20path that galen took her career and her
17:22lifestyle
17:25look um
17:28i guess
17:30the period 91 to 96
17:35kevin and i were knocked out
17:37you know we were on trial for our lives
17:40we
17:40passports were taken couldn't travel
17:42anywhere
17:43um
17:44and it was a
17:46very dark
17:48time
17:49guillen was getting on with her own life
17:52mostly uh
17:54up until then had been in london she'd
17:56done a lot of uh she had a lot of
17:57friends and knocked around in town but
18:00then somewhere towards the end of 90 she
18:02goes to america
18:04my father had a lot of business over
18:05there she started to
18:07help with various uh
18:09some specific tasks mostly to do the
18:11newspapers over there then the business
18:13blows up and
18:17kevin and i said to her stay in america
18:20don't come home because
18:22this is not a place for a maxwell to be
18:24happy right now
18:26england
18:27just turned on us big time
18:29and uh which i i get but there was no
18:32reason why it should turn on my sister
18:34so we said stay in america get on with
18:36your life do whatever you're doing
18:39um and uh you know we'll just fight our
18:41battle the best we the best we know how
18:44i'm not sure if that's the answer to the
18:45question you asked
18:47it wrong but no no no you didn't at all
18:49to be fair i'm quite nasally so
18:51um when did you first hear that she was
18:55she'd struck
18:56up a
18:57relationship with jeffrey epstein and
18:59what did you believe that relationship
19:01to be
19:02i
19:03i know that
19:05there's been a lot of
19:06suggestion that somehow my father had
19:08introduced uh the two of them
19:11i know that not to be the case
19:14i don't actually know who did introduce
19:16guillen to jeffrey epstein
19:19or precisely when that took place i
19:21would say
19:2291 early 92
19:26um i i guess i knew by
19:30you know certainly late 92 that she was
19:33in early 93 that she was in a new
19:35relationship
19:38um
19:39i didn't
19:40uh to be honest with you uh when you're
19:43engaged in fighting for your own
19:45life
19:46as i was yeah there's not much else
19:49i'm concentrating on other than my own
19:51defense my marriage at the time was
19:53falling to bits it was just not a good
19:54time for me so
19:56i didn't have much of a of a real
19:58insight into this relationship except
20:01that
20:02it existed
20:03she seemed happy
20:05uh
20:06and um and i thought well i'm glad
20:08somebody seems to be okay with our
20:11family and i didn't think much else
20:12about it yeah subsequently
20:15i met him for the one and only time in
20:191996
20:21and i'm not clear at what stage that
20:24relationship had
20:25got by 1996 because it's clear that
20:28there was
20:30uh a time when they were um an item
20:34um
20:35and then somehow they weren't an item
20:38person in other words they were lovers
20:39then they were not
20:41and um i don't know exact exactly at
20:44what point that switch occurred and i
20:46think it was before i met him but anyway
20:48they were clearly
20:49still
20:50uh friendly
20:52and uh i had lunch with him and kevin
20:54and gillen and uh
20:58my recollection of him was that he was
21:00an intelligent man he had a certain
21:02charisma
21:05he was not somebody that i felt was
21:07instinctively warm as a personality he
21:09you didn't feel that this is a man you
21:11want to go and have a job with donald
21:12trump
21:14what i did feel was that he was capable
21:16of taking information from me you know
21:19sucking out
21:20think facts and ideas that he thought
21:22would be interesting but there wasn't
21:23much coming back the other way so he was
21:26a he was a quite an aggressive listener
21:29know there are people like that you just
21:30feel oh boy you know this is very
21:33intelligent but you know he's not really
21:34going to be my child so i didn't ever
21:36feel that but equally i didn't feel that
21:39he was some terrible
21:40monster because the key about epstein
21:44was that
21:45he
21:46led a completely compartmentalized
21:50life
21:51it's quite obvious that that was what
21:53was going on and that the life that he
21:55chose to show
21:57to me to gilend to others
22:00uh
22:01must have been completely different and
22:03was completely different to what we now
22:05know to be his
22:07sexual and other proclivities which
22:09are horrid and which
22:14yeah and what you know what was your
22:15reaction when he was arrested
22:18i think when that happened at first he
22:20was arrested i guess in about uh
22:23seven or eight 2007 2008
22:26i don't think i had much for reaction
22:28i'll tell you why because i know for a
22:30fact that
22:32guillen had by then certainly moved
22:34there was a new man in her life and had
22:36been for several years
22:38perhaps early 2000s so for me jeffrey
22:42was already
22:43part of her history
22:44um and i don't think i'm
22:47i don't i don't think i've really
22:48stopped to say
22:50yeah other than it's pretty shocking
22:52shocking affair um but he was already
22:55yesterday's news i'm not going to spend
22:57much time thinking about him and
22:58actually
22:59in the in the entire arc of guillen's
23:02life
23:03the sort of
23:04intimate moment with jeffrey epstein
23:06doesn't loom very large
23:08yeah in reality there's been painted
23:10something else
23:12a blip does it you know just a another
23:15boyfriend another friend that wasn't
23:17really significant
23:20sorry again jay oh sorry so you know
23:22the relationship was it quite short did
23:24you not see it as um
23:26very significant
23:28i think
23:30i think guillen initially would have
23:31hoped that it might have become
23:33significant
23:34uh as it has turned out it's significant
23:37for all the wrong reasons
23:40you know it's come back to haunt her
23:42yeah and i suspect that uh you know at
23:45the time she met that would have been
23:46she would have been about 30 you know
23:48it's a time when you you're wanting
23:50probably to settle down and and to think
23:53long term so
23:54i
23:55i don't know i
23:57it must have crossed her mind
23:59um
24:00that that would be
24:01he would be a possible long seriously
24:04long-term relationship with to have with
24:07him
24:08um but it
24:10it's obvious that it was not the reverse
24:13in other words he didn't want that kind
24:15of a relationship with her they never
24:17lived together jay
24:18he had his house she had her ass
24:21he didn't have a key to hers she didn't
24:23have a key to his she wanted to see him
24:25she made an appointment so
24:27you know the idea that they're sort of
24:28some loved up forever a couple
24:31and that infamous picture of them almost
24:32joined in the neck it just doesn't ring
24:35true because it wasn't
24:37that kind of relationship ever
24:39yeah
24:40and did she ever express any concern to
24:43you that she would she might be dragged
24:45into all of this upon jeffrey's arrest
24:48did she think that she might be arrested
24:51i certainly not in uh certainly not at
24:54that time i don't think so i don't think
24:56so at all i mean it's quite obvious now
24:59looking back on it and hindsight is such
25:01a wonderful thing to have
25:02that uh by the time you drive that
25:05forward to
25:07the next let's say he has he's uh he's
25:09arrested and then he's found guilty and
25:12then he's imprisoned and we're now
25:142 000
25:16i don't know 10 11 run there
25:19and one can might have thought that was
25:20the end of it
25:22but then there is this terrible uh story
25:25that breaks in the daily mail with the
25:26infamous photograph that now everyone
25:28has seen of
25:29[Music]
25:30gilan in the background of the
25:32photograph taken in her house which
25:34shows prince andrew with his arm around
25:35somebody we now know to be called
25:37virginia dufrey
25:39and um so the whole thing takes off
25:41again uh
25:43and but even at that point it's hard to
25:45imagine that guillen would have thought
25:48uh
25:49anything
25:50behind was gonna happen to her in
25:52connection with uh epstein
25:55i don't think so anyway and
25:57do you remember where you were and how
25:59you reacted to epstein's death
26:03i was certainly in
26:05london
26:06uh he died in
26:09july 2019 no august 2019
26:13and
26:15it was a very
26:17it was a strange
26:18time we the last time i saw guillen and
26:21spoke to guilin and hugged her
26:24was
26:25the 10th of june 2019. i can date it
26:29precisely because there is a photograph
26:31that's now been released that shows all
26:33of the siblings together
26:35um and with guillen in the front and the
26:37rest of the back and that was taken that
26:39night on what would have been the 96th
26:42birthday of my father just coincidental
26:44we didn't come together to celebrate
26:46that
26:47it's a nothing day but
26:49we were all in london at that same time
26:51on that night and it was the first time
26:52for eight years all of us have got
26:54together
26:55and gillam was in cracking full
26:58terrific the whole family was happy to
27:00be together this is so rare
27:02and we have a nice dinner and lots of
27:05jokes and reminiscences i do remember
27:08gillan being in
27:09great grateful really looking good
27:12seemed to be in a great space in a in
27:15her mind
27:16and then
27:18barely that's june 10. now we get to
27:21july 6
27:23jeffrey epstein is arrested
27:25i didn't really think too much about it
27:27you know he's rearrested gosh
27:30a strange anyway
27:32and then the next thing bang on the
27:34sixth of august is dead
27:37and at that point i thought to myself my
27:40god how is that possible how is it
27:43possible
27:44for the us government to lose epstein on
27:48their watch in federal custody 24 7
27:51under guard
27:53i just don't know how that's i remember
27:54just being shocked
27:56at
27:57how that could have been allowed to
28:00happen i don't recall much else i didn't
28:02make some vast forward guess and think
28:04oh guillen it's not going to be in the
28:06frame
28:07i did i just that was i could not
28:09believe that a country as powerful and
28:12operationally secure as america could
28:15let a man die on their watch yeah and
28:19there's quite a lot surrounding that it
28:21just doesn't
28:23at the very worst it's complete
28:25negligence um you know with the cctv
28:28cameras etcetera but yeah
28:30how did um do you know how gilan reacted
28:32to her has she ever talked about i can't
28:36imagine i you know because i haven't uh
28:39i just hadn't had like you know there
28:41was no reason for us to again to start
28:43talking and so on and i i don't
28:45i don't know at what point she
28:48uh the press really turned
28:51on her case that i must have been very
28:52soon after that i don't think there was
28:55time
28:56for me to call her and say what do you
28:57make of this or the other way around and
28:59anyway she's always led a pretty private
29:01life in america and um
29:04you know i wasn't in the habit of
29:05ringing up and prying and saying what do
29:06you think about that's just not the way
29:08we didn't have that kind of a
29:09relationship so
29:10i don't know how she reacted other than
29:13i assume with profound shock because it
29:16was just so unlikely
29:18and the media what they've done if
29:20they've painted a picture that gillan
29:23basically went into hiding um that you
29:26know she she didn't want to um
29:29talk to the press anything what's the
29:31real story about that
29:33behind that well
29:34the implication
29:36that's been
29:38put about is that uh
29:42she was running from the authority
29:44that's that's the lie
29:47and uh the truth is that she was in fact
29:51running from the press pack
29:55and the lynch mob that had developed
29:57around that you recall that the sun
30:00newspaper put a reward of ten thousand
30:02pounds for a location
30:06you know proper sighting of her
30:08leading eventually to an ability for
30:10them to interview her
30:12but the intrusiveness of the press the
30:15ruthlessness of which they tried to
30:19uh locate her and were jumping out of
30:21hedges at her
30:23home uh there was stalking the kids
30:26school
30:27uh they were seeking to uh you know that
30:30helicopters flying overhead it was heavy
30:32very very heavy and guillen decided she
30:34could not inflict that
30:36level of intrusive
30:38uh
30:39press pack
30:40lynch mob on her family so she said i'm
30:43just gonna have to
30:45lilo for a while
30:47and so we now know she was you know in
30:50fact moving from
30:51uh air and b
30:53house to aaron b house you know for many
30:56months
30:57and then eventually she concluded this
31:01peripatetic
31:02gypsy life was not for her and it wasn't
31:05for her family and they ended up getting
31:07a house
31:08in new hampshire
31:10where
31:10uh
31:11the she saw quite a lot of her husband
31:14as we now know
31:15uh he was and his two children and they
31:18had some sort of a normal
31:20existence but the idea that she was
31:23fleeing because she had some uh
31:26second sight that she was going to be
31:27arrested gillan was not like there was
31:30no reason for gillette to have been
31:32arrested at that point
31:34and um in any event
31:37the
31:38uh she was not as far as we know a
31:40figure of suspicion her lawyers were in
31:43touch with the
31:44uh authorities said listen if you want
31:46to interview our client we will bring
31:48her in
31:49no such request was uh entertained and
31:52the next thing we know epstein dies
31:55william barr
31:57uh
31:58a rather controversial uh attorney
32:00general
32:01uh
32:02come his film stamping his foot and
32:05saying he's livid
32:06and uh
32:08co-conspirators should not rest easy and
32:10all this kind of stuff the next thing
32:12you know she's arrested in this
32:14ridiculous theatrical way with
32:16helicopters and fbi men crawling all
32:18over her property and she's been being
32:20banged up for over 500 days
32:23to me uh
32:24it's just crazy and there was never any
32:27thought that she was uh
32:30running away if she wanted to run away
32:32then she could have availed herself of
32:34either her british especially her french
32:37passport gone to france because the
32:39french do not extradite their citizens
32:41back to third-party countries and off
32:44she could easily have done it she chose
32:46not to do it she remained in the united
32:48states the entire time from epstein's
32:51death until her arrest was basically a
32:54year
32:55yeah and and
32:57why do you think she was arrested
32:59why why has the focus shifted onto
33:01him
33:03i think she's
33:06been arrested because the authorities
33:08are so embarrassed by the turn of events
33:11that they lose
33:13a man on their watch
33:15in their custody
33:17who is facing really serious charges
33:21there are very very many disappointed
33:23victims of geoffrey epstein out there
33:26who have been
33:28who have
33:30no longer got somebody they can
33:33address their case to their anger to
33:36their thoughts of revenge upon and so on
33:39he suddenly just he's gone the whole
33:41case against him collapses because he's
33:43dead
33:44so the authorities say well you know we
33:47we
33:49we are accused of having signed up to a
33:52sweetheart deal with a man in 2000 uh
33:559 10 whatever it is 10 years ago and we
33:59shouldn't have done that because
34:01it was clearly wrong
34:03now we managed to lose him on our watch
34:07we cannot let things stand here there
34:09must be a culprit there must be somebody
34:13who's going to pay this price
34:16let's go for guillen maxwell she's at
34:18the right time in the right place she's
34:20a tri-national
34:22uh and so on and she's just up patsy
34:26and being made to pay a blood price
34:29that she should not
34:31have to pay
34:32and how do you think the media have
34:34covered the whole case
34:37the media took their
34:39their line from the authorities
34:42the day of guillen's arrest second july
34:45there's a
34:46uh later in the day there's an infamous
34:49press conference held by the attorney
34:51general of the southern district of new
34:52york with the members of the fbi next to
34:55her
34:56and from the moment that press
34:58conference begins until the end of it
35:01it is designed to frame gilen
35:04and to
35:06put her on as guilty
35:08guilty pre-trial guilty under all
35:10circumstances there's a terrible picture
35:13of audrey strauss the attorney general
35:14acting attorney general and i think she
35:16was then pointing to a picture of
35:19epstein and gillen uh
35:22epstein with his hand around guillen's
35:24neck pointing for perhaps 20 possibly 30
35:27seconds so that the evening shows cap
35:30get that picture
35:32and uh the fbi uses the most egregious
35:35language about gillen slithering away
35:38to some fabulous luxury home and so on
35:40it is designed
35:43and was uh always conceivable to frame
35:46her as guilty as soon as the authorities
35:49overstepped the mark in that way instead
35:52of saying
35:53we have evidence to believe this woman
35:56must be arrested and uh face charges and
35:59then eventually trial and leave it there
36:02they go way over the mark and they do
36:05this
36:06as a result the press have got nowhere
36:08else to go so they say okay yeah she's
36:11uh she fits the bill
36:14and they just go at it like hammer and
36:16tongs i think that's
36:18uh more than just uh
36:21uh the press taking the authority's lead
36:23i think there's also
36:26although i'm not a conspiracy man that
36:28does feel that behind this there's also
36:31something of an orchestrated
36:33misinformation campaign
36:36uh
36:36to
36:38pursue and continue to paint her in the
36:41way
36:42that i've just described to you
36:45which is just wrong because if there is
36:48the evidence that that's purported to be
36:51against her has never been tested has
36:54never been no none of these uh accusers
36:57have stood up in a court of law and had
36:59their claims
37:00tested in the way that they have to be
37:02tested instead of which guillen is
37:05already judged guilty in the court of
37:07public opinion and that is not right and
37:11that is what's happened in this case
37:14and a lot of what i've noticed is a lot
37:17of media attention has been placed back
37:20onto your father again despite the fact
37:21that
37:22let's be honest
37:23it's irrelevant to the case what are
37:25your thoughts on that
37:28excuse me it is completely irrelevant
37:31you're right about that
37:33of course um
37:35when my father died
37:38uh it was then revealed that uh he had
37:42uh
37:43borrowed
37:44assets belonging to
37:47certain pension funds under his control
37:50um in an effort actually to shore up the
37:53finances of the group i have no doubt
37:56with the
37:57intention of
37:58returning those funds but nonetheless
38:01it was wrong
38:03and
38:04terribly misguided and
38:06it absolutely has cost it cost the
38:08business and
38:10it costs our families good name
38:13so he has gone down now as a byword for
38:17bad for a bad man
38:19and therefore it's kind of
38:21it's such an easy link
38:23uh it's like hitting an own goal batman
38:27the
38:28rotten apple never falls far from from
38:30the mother tree so it's easy to paint
38:33guillen as
38:34uh you know coming from the same old
38:37poison well
38:39and then it's even easier to suggest
38:40because he was a powerful manipulative
38:43monster of a man she's therefore
38:45inherently attracted to powerful
38:47manipulative monsters of men uh hey ho
38:50she tips up into the arms of epstein and
38:52it's just the same old story
38:55this time she's responsible for it
38:58so it's a trope in some sense and it is
39:01if it wasn't so serious it's ludicrous
39:04uh because
39:06dad has no
39:07input here at all
39:09from my
39:10way of thinking
39:11his
39:12strengths are all positive as far as
39:15guillen is concerned in terms of her
39:17values in terms of her work ethic in
39:19terms of her creativity in terms of her
39:23of her
39:24capacity to do things
39:28and so as far as i'm concerned he's a
39:30force for the good the fact that he's
39:32painted as a force for the band is just
39:34part of this narrative
39:36the wrong the bad narrative if you like
39:38the negative narrative i was going to
39:40say it's anything that any negative that
39:42they can find isn't it um so we've
39:44mentioned briefly about the fact that
39:46she hasn't been um her accusers haven't
39:48been scrutinized by the press and that's
39:50true so a lot of my work has been
39:52focusing on virginia jafre um
39:55what are you what's your opinion of
39:58virginia dufresne her particularly her
40:00credibility
40:04well i think there's any one thing you
40:05can say about
40:07her credibility and that is that it is
40:10not sufficient for either the united
40:12states government to put her into this
40:14trial against guillen and nor has it
40:16been for the metropolitan police to
40:19uh investigate
40:21uh the events uh which he alleges
40:23against uh prince andrew which happened
40:2520 years ago and and which that famous
40:28picture uh is a uh is a symbolic of
40:31andrew with his hand around her waist
40:34and gillen in the background
40:36so
40:37i think that's very significant if her
40:40claims
40:41against guillen were as strong as she
40:44asserts or her supporters are said or
40:46her lawyers are sir
40:49why
40:50have they not been used
40:53in this case
40:55so from my perspective that says it all
40:58it means that were they to have been
41:00used
41:02they could not have been stood up in a
41:04criminal trial and why is that
41:07because if you go back through her
41:10own words in multiple occasions both in
41:14court where she's on oath
41:16and in
41:17uh and in the media where she's given
41:20countless interviews to press
41:22to uh documentaries and so forth but her
41:27words
41:28recollection of events seem to change
41:31just take the example of prince andrew
41:34when the prince andrew photograph and
41:36the initial allegations come out against
41:38him
41:38ten years ago
41:40there was no allegation that there was
41:42any sexual impropriety on his part
41:45at least that's my recollection and now
41:47suddenly it gets harder and harder until
41:49suddenly
41:51one
41:52one minute to midnight when the statute
41:54of limitations is about to expire on
41:56this particular piece of new york
41:59law that enables
42:00alleged victims of uh sexual
42:04uh
42:05non-conceptual activity activity to be
42:08lodged she lodges this complaint against
42:11prince andrew and paints this lurid
42:14picture of what happened um my own sense
42:17of it is that uh she
42:20what's the most charitable thing you can
42:22say she's very confused she's a very
42:25confused young lady at one level because
42:27the story keeps changing
42:29and we know from her own testimony that
42:31she has taken quite a lot of drugs let's
42:34say drink and so on which are
42:36unhelpful to having a clear
42:38memory and consistently clear memory
42:42and uh i it's it's well known that you
42:46know she also has
42:48um
42:49done financially very well out of this
42:51whole over this whole period
42:54that's not to say that she
42:56may not have been victimized in some way
42:59by epstein
43:01and that she's not entitled to have some
43:03compensation and so on but there is a
43:05big difference
43:06between
43:08uh
43:09what i'm you know that that specific
43:13uh set of uh claims that she may
43:16legitimately have
43:17and seeking
43:20to exploit the position
43:22not necessarily in a clear
43:26credible
43:27way as against my sister
43:31and and what do you know so
43:33why do you think that media in general
43:36on
43:37scrutinizing this so that there's you
43:39know as i say i've a lot of my work has
43:41been
43:42highlighting the different
43:44contradictions and there are there are
43:45plenty um considering this now involves
43:48a prince um we've had foreign presidents
43:52and your sister and it's one of the
43:54biggest trials um perhaps of the decade
43:56at least
43:58why aren't the media scrutinizing
44:00virginia defray and some of the other
44:02accusers
44:04that's a good question jane i
44:07i think
44:08we can safely say
44:11that the
44:12media are completely aware of the
44:16inconsistencies in her account yeah and
44:19they have drawn those conclusions quite
44:21a quite a while back
44:24so i think in some senses she's already
44:27discounted in
44:30in the media
44:31but we live in the age of me too
44:34and
44:35uh the narrative that's been running
44:37against guillen is
44:39at some level a me too
44:41uh generated narrative so for the media
44:45to go against that narrative on the one
44:48hand
44:49and to
44:52be seen to be
44:54victim-shaming or
44:56taking it out on the victims is not a
44:58line they want to be seen to be doing so
45:01it's
45:03it's it's rather awkward
45:05they may not
45:06find her credible
45:08but they're not prepared to put the boot
45:10in
45:11because their own economic interests and
45:14their own
45:15uh perception of
45:18their
45:19uh
45:20rectitude
45:21in the matter take
45:23primacy over justice
45:26and the presumption of innocence and so
45:28forth and i'm afraid that's just the way
45:30it is yeah
45:32and um so we've covered the metoo
45:34movement which is i i feel a massive
45:37influence on the case
45:38going back to gilan then but um
45:40personally have you spoken to her while
45:42she's been in prison there have been a
45:44you know there's been a lot made about
45:45her conditions in there um have you
45:48spoken to her personally
45:50no i've i've not been able to speak to
45:52her personally and i suppose
45:54you know she could call me she's got a
45:56certain number of calls but these calls
45:58are listened to and i'm not quite sure
46:01what she'd tell me uh what i would tell
46:04her and and so it's much safer if i've
46:06got something to say to i say to uh
46:08lawyers who are seeing her every day
46:10mostly by zoom um look when you're
46:13talking to guillen uh ask her this or
46:15tell her that or the other and then
46:17sometimes they just comes back the other
46:19way so there is some form of
46:21contact if you like but it's it's at one
46:23remove or two removed
46:26as far as her conditions sorry so no
46:28sorry carrie
46:30as far as her conditions are concerned
46:31well i think it's now it's now well
46:33known and uh
46:35as of just uh last weekend or the
46:36weekend before
46:38uh
46:39in her own words that her conditions are
46:42really appalling
46:43and have been from the word go
46:48i i think it's fair to say that guillen
46:50has been
46:51significantly
46:53uh discriminated against
46:55um
46:56at many many levels
46:58just take two levels for the i think
47:00there was a strong mice misogynistic
47:04side to this
47:05it is
47:06uh really extraordinary that the killer
47:10of george floyd
47:12john gotti a mobster
47:17harvey weinstein bernie madoff
47:20uh
47:21dominic strauss khan bill cosby
47:25you name it
47:26all men
47:28all of them appearing unremarked at
47:31trial
47:32for
47:34fractional sums
47:36as compared to the sum that gillen
47:38offered for her
47:39bail yeah of 28.5 million dollars
47:43so there is
47:45why is she being treated differently to
47:47those men
47:48one so there's some
47:50misogynistic
47:52discrimination there
47:54then the conditions of her detention
47:57are clearly discriminatory
47:59she
48:00even uh within mdc yeah she's isolated
48:04she doesn't have the same um access to
48:07uh commissary and to other so-called uh
48:11plot you know
48:13advantages that other inmates have
48:15including other pre-trial inmates
48:17she's subjected to a suicide watch
48:20regime that's completely inappropriate
48:22she's no more suicidal than you or i are
48:24and uh which involves interralia having
48:29taught sean in her face every 15 minutes
48:32throughout the night that is still going
48:33on
48:34that is torture there's no question that
48:37is torture
48:38she's got awful food i think that's
48:41general in generally true in the prison
48:45uh you know the sanitary conditions are
48:47appalling the water is off
48:49uh
48:50i think she has many more strip searches
48:52than any inmate in there up to seven a
48:54day even though she's isolated from all
48:57uh other inmates
48:59so
49:00why are they doing this they're doing
49:02this i think for two reasons one
49:05they're determined to break her
49:08break her spirit
49:10break her ability to defend herself
49:12break her
49:14mentally physically and have a show up
49:18defenseless at trial
49:21and then
49:22i think they are also
49:25absolutely determined at all costs to
49:29make sure that the remains of gilen are
49:33delivered
49:34to trial
49:35yeah because they couldn't do that for
49:37epstein and that explains why all her
49:40bail applications have been turned down
49:43all of them even though the package that
49:45she's put together is unprecedented in
49:48depth and scope and so on that's another
49:52cause of discrimination
49:54and it's not just the judge at first
49:57instance that has chosen
49:59really
50:00for no rational reasons that i can see
50:03not to release it
50:05but the appeal court above her
50:07has it on two separate occasions
50:10also kicked it back
50:12so
50:14this is uh
50:15both a a
50:16judicial
50:18decision
50:19and since decisions taken in u.s courts
50:22uh you know the judges are appointed
50:24uh politically
50:26uh this was a judge nathan was appointed
50:29by um
50:30by obama
50:31so you cannot say this is a judicial
50:34decision without saying this is also a
50:36political decision
50:38and yet
50:39the judge has gone out of her way to say
50:42that come trial there can be no
50:44putting up of the idea that
50:46this could have some political
50:47implications of why helen is being
50:50treated in this way
50:51so it seems to me that the authorities
50:54here are
50:56bang to rights in every possible way as
51:00to the indefensible treatment meted out
51:04to gilean pre-trial innocent by virtue
51:07of being a pre-trial detainee they have
51:11broken
51:12every rule in the book
51:14uh uh including all without exception
51:18all of the key rules of the uh nelson
51:21mandela rules which are u.n
51:24u.n enshrined
51:26rules
51:27and that is why
51:29the family is going to has taken steps
51:33to
51:34logic complaint formal petition
51:36with the united nations working group on
51:39arbitrary detention
51:41in order
51:42to bring these terrible terrible uh
51:47failings of the united states to
51:51broad public attention
51:53and to seek
51:55the
51:56um
51:57the determination of the working group
52:00to hold the us to account
52:03and to have them
52:04uh
52:06on the assumption that they accept that
52:08and can show independently what i have
52:11just been telling you about her
52:12conditions are true that she be released
52:15immediately upon the inquiry completely
52:18and that the united states
52:21uh then conduct its own inquiry as to
52:24how that was allowed to take place and
52:26for those responsible for it to be held
52:30to account
52:31that is what
52:33ought to happen much too late
52:35uh and uh
52:37but you know we're just not gonna sweep
52:39this under the carpet no that's good
52:41that's good and
52:42very final question
52:44hand on heart what do you think the
52:47outcome of the trial is going to be
52:52look uh
52:53we've got to hope
52:55for
52:57an impartial jury
53:00that's a quite a long hope because the
53:04drip drip dip for now a torrent of
53:07anti-gillian
53:09two-dimensional monster
53:12mother
53:13what is so
53:14pervasive and so serious and so
53:18prolonged and so intense
53:20that it is almost impossible to believe
53:22that any
53:24member of the jury that is ultimately
53:26selected has not in some way absorbed
53:30that to
53:31a greater or lesser degree
53:33so we're all human beings and uh we've
53:36all got our own inbuilt prejudices and
53:38so on so they've got to do they've got
53:40to somehow
53:41act impartially
53:43they've only got to look at the evidence
53:45that's put in front of them
53:47that's already you've got to shut out
53:49all that i've just been telling you
53:50about
53:51and you've got to concentrate on that
53:52you've got to deal with your own
53:54prejudices deal with all the negativity
53:56that you've heard about and somehow
53:58concentrate on
54:00the evidence listen to the accusers and
54:03then listen to gilean if she chooses to
54:04take the stand or anyway listen to her
54:07her defense arguments
54:09and then
54:10if there is justice
54:13gilen will be acquitted
54:15because she is innocent of these charges
54:19that she is facing
54:21and
54:22that is my firm belief
54:24i think that is also guilin's firm
54:26belief she's never altered her position
54:28uh in the defamation trial brought
54:30against a defamation case brought
54:32against her by virginia dufrey in 2016
54:35she did not avail herself of the fifth
54:37amendment she chose to speak
54:40that's now being used against her by
54:44the judge in that particular case
54:46agreeing to release
54:47certain asp parts of those transcripts
54:50and then the judge in this case not you
54:52know taking most of it in
54:54and that one of these now leads to
54:56perjury counts that are not yet going to
54:58be tried and tried in the second trial
55:00and so her attempt to be uh open has
55:03been turned against her
55:05and
55:06so i
55:08i think it's going to be really hard for
55:09her to get a fair trial
55:11but if there is
55:13justice and if it's conducted properly
55:15and professionally and the jury acts as
55:18a jury should she shouldn't be acquitted

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