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Ex-Banker: How I Retired In My 30s With Multiple Streams Of Passive Income — Transcript

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0:00that fear of losing [music] your job.
0:02So, is that what like led you on the
0:04path to wanting to achieve financial
0:05freedom?
0:05>> you would think so, wouldn't you?
0:07>> [laughter]
0:08>> Something must have happened and I was
0:09just really annoyed with myself. And I
0:12sat down and I said, "Listen, your role
0:14is to preserve and build wealth for
0:17wealthy individuals. Make sure they
0:19don't lose money and on an annual basis,
0:20you're meant to grow that." And I said,
0:22"Your bank account does not reflect that
0:24relationship. What on earth is going on
0:25here?" I just never wanted to feel like
0:27if I lost my job tomorrow, I had nothing
0:30to fall back on. You said it wasn't a
0:32plan to retire.
0:34>> But it got to a point where I wanted
0:35[music] to take a mental and physical
0:38break from work. Just, you know, 6
0:39months, 3 to 6 [music] months. 6 months
0:42became a year, 2 years, 3 years, etc.
0:45So, the years just rolled by. It wasn't
0:46a plan. I was really aggressive with my
0:49money. So, I'd say in a good month, 70
0:52to 80% of [music] my pay went into my
0:54investments. It's about either
0:56compounding and growing your wealth for
0:57your future self or consuming all of
1:00that now and having [music] nothing.
1:01Your income or your salary is, for most
1:04people, that will be the seed capital
1:06that funds your investments. So, please
1:09be nice to your employers [music]
1:10and be polite.
1:12>> Beyond AI, are there any other global
1:14trend sectors or [music] themes that you
1:16think are being ignored but could
1:18quietly create the next wave of
1:19millionaires over the next decade?
1:25>> [music]
1:33>> Welcome back to another episode of the
1:34podcast. I'm your host Ato. We have a
1:36special guest in the building. We have
1:38Jim Ok, who's an investor, wealth
1:40educator, and former investment banker
1:42at a top-tier global bank. After nearly
1:45two decades working with high-net-worth
1:47clients, she's built her own path to
1:48financial freedom in her 30s and now
1:50helps others rethink how they build
1:52wealth, manage risk, and buy back their
1:55time. Jim Ok, how are you doing today?
1:56>> I'm very well, Ato. Really nice to see
1:59you and be here. So, thank you so much
2:01for having me. Welcome. You know what's
2:03crazy, right? So, I've seen I've told
2:05you this already, but I saw your video I
2:07think I might have seen it about a few
2:09months ago pop off. I was like, "Oh,
2:11wow, like this is really interesting."
2:13And I thought it would be great to have
2:15a bit of a conversation because
2:16especially in the UK, we we as you know,
2:18we don't talk too much about money. Um
2:21we don't talk too much about financial
2:23freedom. And we don't know that many
2:24people that have achieved it. So, you
2:26know, the fact that you've done that, I
2:28think is really inspiring. And the fact
2:30that you're now sharing, you know, the
2:31information with others is even better
2:33um as well. So, yeah, no, it's great to
2:36to have you on the podcast. Um so, for
2:39anyone discovering you for the first
2:40time, how would you describe who Jim Ok
2:42is and what you do? Okay. So, hi
2:45everyone.
2:46Um I am an investment banker at heart
2:49and of course by training. I'm also an
2:51economist. Uh throughout my career, I
2:54have looked after high-net-worth and
2:56ultra-high-net-worth individuals,
2:58families, and institutions in the EMEA
3:01region, which is Europe, Middle East,
3:03and Africa.
3:04And uh essentially, I was an investor on
3:07behalf of these individuals and
3:09families. So, I went through the whole
3:11journey of being an analyst and
3:13associates. And my last role was
3:15deputizing as a chief investment officer
3:18of an international bank here in London.
3:20Lots of travel. I traveled once or twice
3:23a month for 7 years. So, it was very
3:25interesting times. But right now, I am
3:28>> [clears throat]
3:29>> a lady of leisure, if I can call it
3:31that.
3:32>> [laughter and gasps]
3:32>> I just spend my time at the moment
3:33traveling, uh spending a lot of time
3:36with family, which I wasn't able to do
3:38as much as I wanted to in the past. Uh
3:40and also, I am still an investor, of
3:43course. But um I also produce content,
3:46where I put out information online,
3:48YouTube, for individuals who are looking
3:50to navigate this crazy but interesting
3:53world of personal finance. So, these
3:55videos are meant to be sort of
3:56hand-holding videos for individuals like
3:58that. So, that's me in a nutshell.
4:00Amazing. And you do a lot of work of You
4:02know what? I want to say thank you for
4:03sharing this back cuz a lot of people do
4:05work in an industry and they don't share
4:07the information back and it's such
4:09valuable information. A lot of them will
4:12achieve what you've achieved and then
4:13they go about their day and they're not
4:14like trying to really give back. And
4:16then the fact that you're doing that, I
4:17think it's a I try.
4:20>> [laughter]
4:20>> No, you're giving You're giving great
4:22information. That's why your channel's
4:23grown, you know, to the to the level it
4:25has. And I think that's um very, very
4:27important. When you look back over your
4:29journey from building and creating
4:30finance to achieving freedom, what
4:32experience do you think shaped the
4:34person you've become today?
4:37Um I think there is a panoply of things
4:40and experiences over the years, but I'd
4:42say first and foremost was my mother. Um
4:44she herself was uh a banker. And growing
4:48up, she was quite senior, actually, in
4:50that time. And it was very rare for a
4:52woman to have achieved that level of
4:53seniority in investment banking. So, she
4:57instilled in her children, you know, the
4:59the art of respecting money and making
5:02it work for you. So, from a very tiny
5:04age, she taught us about saving. She was
5:07an investor herself, so she bought us
5:08landed property um well, back in in uh
5:13my home country, but she bought us
5:14property, she bought us shares.
5:16Um you know, she encouraged us to save.
5:19So, just watching her growing up, I
5:20already had that in my brain that
5:22well, even though I didn't exercise it
5:24immediately uh when I started working, I
5:26always had it at the back of my brain
5:28that there is a certain relationship you
5:30have to have with money and it's
5:32important that you define that before it
5:34starts to accumulate. So, that as well
5:37as
5:38just meeting some incredible you know,
5:41clients and and talent as well that I
5:43worked with. So, incredible colleagues
5:45who
5:46were mentors, really. Just watching them
5:49just, you know, uh and how they
5:50allocated funds and their approach to
5:53money.
5:54Clients as well, you learn so much from
5:56the psychology of the rich, from just
5:58being around them and listening to them
5:59and understanding how they um
6:02I suppose navigate risks and things like
6:05that. And also just, you know, generally
6:07life. Understanding the fleeting nature
6:09of money. It's here today, it's gone
6:10tomorrow unless you're very intentional
6:13um about how you allocate it. So, I
6:16think those are some of the things that
6:17have shaped where I am today. Yeah.
6:19>> Yeah.
6:19>> Yeah. I wanted to know about the clients
6:20though cuz I think that's always quite
6:22important. What would you say are some
6:24of those principles that you feel like
6:25you learned from, you know, your
6:26clients?
6:27>> So, I think the interesting thing is I
6:29think that the psychology of
6:32wealthy individuals isn't far off from
6:35the average person. I think the
6:37difference is how they go about
6:38implementing. So, they take actions when
6:40they've, you know, thought about things
6:43and
6:44it's not just They don't They don't just
6:46say it. You know, there's a lot of
6:47action behind that. They have calculated
6:49risks, decisions. You know, so just
6:52looking at some of them over, you know,
6:53when we had market crashes as well, how
6:56they dealt with their portfolios. I had
6:58one group of clients who I love very
6:59much, of course, but were very sort of
7:01risk-averse.
7:03Um and then another group who doubled
7:05down to increase their wealth over that
7:07period. So,
7:08yeah, you just learn so much by being
7:10around these individuals. I once sat
7:12with an extremely wealthy individual,
7:14one of the wealthiest men in Africa. And
7:16I remember he was talking about We were
7:18talking about a specific company and I
7:19just asked a few questions around it.
7:21And he said to me that if I was to lose
7:241 million, he says, "I know where each
7:26million of my money goes goes." This is
7:28a billionaire. So, in my mind, I was
7:30thinking, "Oh, that's very interesting."
7:32I smiled uh politely, but I thought,
7:34"You're a billionaire. Like, why do you
7:35care about a million?" But he said he
7:36wouldn't be able to sleep well at night.
7:38So, it just shows you. And I also
7:39realized also, you know, why God hasn't
7:41made me a billionaire just yet.
7:43>> [laughter]
7:44>> It does It It helps you realize that for
7:46them, it's not just about money. This is
7:48a lifestyle and they respect money a
7:50lot. So, you learn a lot from just, you
7:52know, listening to them and and helping
7:54them grow their wealth as well.
7:55>> Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because um
7:58you know,
8:00when you get more money,
8:02some people do think it's going to solve
8:06all their problems. But at the same
8:08time, it does bring that, you know, air
8:12of ooh, you start feeling of wanting to
8:15lose it, right? Cuz if you if you work
8:17so hard to become a millionaire, you
8:18really don't want to then get there and
8:20lose it, you know? So, that psychology
8:22is quite important. I don't know if
8:23enough people think about that when they
8:26get there. They're always thinking,
8:27okay, the lifestyle. But when you get
8:28there, you're going to really truly
8:30live that lifestyle and you have to
8:32maintain it as well.
8:33>> Of course. And as you said, you know, I
8:35think accumulated wealth through
8:37working, 9 to 5, whatever, you know,
8:39building a business, is quite different
8:41from inherited wealth.
8:42>> Yeah. Um where you've maybe been
8:44accustomed to a certain lifestyle and,
8:46you know, money isn't such an object to
8:48you as such. But if you've worked very
8:50hard for every single penny,
8:52it hits differently when you lose it, I
8:54think. I'm not saying, of course, those
8:55who have inherited wealth will not care
8:57for or don't feel the impact, but it's
8:59just it's a different feeling when
9:01you've strived extremely hard for every
9:03single penny and you're not used to, you
9:06know, being around wealth, maybe. Yeah.
9:07Yeah. So, my follow-up question for you
9:09was after nearly two decades in in
9:12investment banking working with
9:13high-net-worth individuals, what moments
9:16from that world left a deepest
9:17impression to you? So, obviously, you
9:19mentioned the very, you know, wealthy
9:20person. What were there any other
9:22moments?
9:23>> So many of them. Um
9:26I think like I said before, I think
9:28working with some of the most extremely
9:31intelligent individuals. Um some of my
9:33colleagues were just So, when I started
9:35working, I worked in one of the hardest
9:38investment banks to get into in the
9:40world. It was really sort of a rigorous
9:41process of getting in. So, I interned
9:44first and then I was offered a position
9:46after university. And you know, working
9:48with some of these individuals who were
9:49just brilliant minds, you learn a lot.
9:52And so, it was a very steep learning
9:54curve for me in the beginning. It was
9:55hard. My goodness. You spend hours and
9:58hours at work. You don't sleep.
10:00Your sleep sort of suffers for the first
10:02maybe 5 years of your career, but
10:04um you learn so much and that was really
10:06a rewarding period for me. But also I
10:08remember during the uh great recession
10:11of 20 uh 2007 to 2009.
10:15And it really felt like the world was
10:17coming to an end. So, it was um
10:19you know,
10:20on one side you had the markets doing
10:22things that no one had ever seen before.
10:24It was just, you know, really high
10:26volatility. The VIX was, you know, at
10:29sky-high levels. But you also had the
10:31fear from your colleagues just watching
10:33the entire because people were getting
10:35laid off at that point. So, I remember,
10:37you know,
10:38I was on the floor at that point and
10:41you would get a call. So, if you got a
10:43call, it most likely was HR asking you
10:45to come in for a little conversation.
10:47So, people weren't answering their
10:48phones.
10:49>> [laughter]
10:50>> And we had clients calling in trying to,
10:53you know, place trades and stuff like
10:54that.
10:55It was really interesting. The fear. And
10:57I remember feeling
10:58or saying to myself, I I never want to
11:01feel like this again where if you lost
11:03your job, that's it. There's nothing
11:05else. You know, so that was a very
11:06tumultuous time for the markets and
11:09those of us in banking. But yeah, it was
11:11quite interesting as well. So,
11:14lots of things. There's one particular
11:16strategy I remember I worked on with
11:18that bank and it was one of the biggest
11:21I think it was the first one that ever
11:22been done.
11:23And it was a program which is now sort
11:25of open to, you know, 20 years after
11:27it's open to 18 20 years after. It's now
11:30open to retail investors. When I see it,
11:32I think, oh, you know, I remember 20
11:34years ago when I worked on that and it
11:35was a money-making machine for a
11:37particular European client at that time.
11:39So, that always stuck with me and again
11:42it comes from the brilliance of those I
11:44worked with to be able to conjure up the
11:46strategy, put it to market without
11:48moving the markets too much.
11:50But yeah, just
11:51lots of memories with different clients.
11:54Are you able to say that strategy? I'd
11:57rather not.
11:57>> [laughter]
11:58>> I don't know if I'm still under an NDA
11:59from from 20 years ago, but
12:02Yeah, oh yes.
12:03Um but it it was interesting. Okay,
12:06that's yeah, okay. That is it's like,
12:09you know, it's going to be interesting
12:11to hear like your
12:13experiences especially
12:15during because people are
12:18now saying now is the market overvalued,
12:20you know, so it'll be interesting to
12:21hear like, you know, obviously comparing
12:23to, you know, those times back then.
12:25We'll talk a bit more about that um
12:27later. But you did say something very
12:28important actually
12:30um in terms of you that fear of losing
12:33your job. So, is that what like led you
12:35on the path to, you know, this path to
12:37Yeah,
12:38yeah, you would think so, wouldn't you?
12:40>> [laughter]
12:41>> But I think um after the storm had
12:44calmed in that period and you know, I
12:46realized, "Ooh, you know, my job is
12:47safe."
12:48Um
12:49it still took me a while to get to the
12:51point where I was really considered
12:53about money and my relationship with
12:55money. So, it took me a few years from
12:57then to, you know, really get my act
12:59together. But I think a lot of things
13:01happened and
13:03one day I just sat and I thought I was
13:04always in overdraft, you know,
13:06get thousands in, thousands out. I was
13:08not saving. I was I've been very
13:10reckless with money. But one day I said
13:12to myself, I think something must have
13:13happened and I was just really annoyed
13:16with myself and I sat down and I said,
13:17"Listen,
13:19your role is to preserve and build
13:22wealth for wealthy individuals. Make
13:24sure they don't lose money and on an
13:25annual basis you're meant to grow that."
13:27>> [snorts]
13:28>> And I said, "Your bank account does not
13:29reflect that relationship. What on earth
13:31is going on here, you know?" And so I
13:33said to myself, "How long do you want to
13:35do this for where you're getting money,
13:37nothing to show for it, you know?" You
13:39know, and and also at that point I think
13:41I decided that I wanted to retire by the
13:44age of 50. So, I had some runway to work
13:47towards that. But I think that was the
13:48point at which I started being very
13:51strategic as to how I managed my money
13:53because I had all this knowledge. I was
13:54applying it to make my client's
13:57wealthier and to preserve their wealth,
13:59but that wasn't really reflecting in my
14:00own life. So, I didn't want to be too
14:02much of a hypocrite. So, I had to think
14:03about my future self. So, that's sort of
14:05what instigated like let's get serious
14:08about, you know, things. Okay, so that's
14:10what made you go into the path of, okay,
14:12I want to build something out
14:13financially independent outside of work.
14:15Absolutely. I just never wanted to feel
14:17like if I lost my job tomorrow, I had
14:19nothing to fall back on. So, yeah.
14:22So, obviously when we spoke, you said it
14:25wasn't a plan to
14:28retire. You wasn't planning to retire at
14:31all. Although obviously you've done a
14:32video on this
14:34that you didn't plan to. So, then what
14:36yeah, what happened around that? What
14:37happened if you didn't plan to retire?
14:39[laughter] What gave you the conviction
14:40to be like, okay, yeah, it's time to
14:43take a step.
14:43>> That's a great question. So,
14:46as I mentioned, my last role was very I
14:48loved it. I absolutely loved what I did.
14:51I loved my clients. I miss them so much,
14:52but I do speak to a few of them every
14:54now and then. But my last role really
14:56saw a lot of travel and I think at some
14:59point it sort of took a physical toll on
15:01myself, you know, years ago, but it
15:03still sort of
15:05I still continued in the role maybe
15:07three four years after. Um but it got to
15:09a point where I wanted to take a mental
15:12and physical break from work. Just, you
15:14know, 6 months, three to 6 months just
15:16to unwind, figure out the next step,
15:19just relax. So, that was the initial
15:21plan. Even though at that point I still
15:24aimed for 50. Um
15:27initially it was just to take some time
15:29out and 6 months became a year, 2 years,
15:333 years, etc. So, it's just that the
15:35years just rolled by. It wasn't a plan.
15:37But when I the thing is I was I also
15:39mentioned this to you that when I
15:42retired or I sort of became work
15:44optional if I can call it that.
15:46Um before that I was really aggressive
15:49with my money. So, I'd say in a good
15:52month 70 to 80% of my pay went into my
15:55investments. On a bad month 40 to 50%
15:59and I've been doing this for an extended
16:00period of time. So, I got to the point
16:03where my auxiliary income, if you will,
16:05or income from investments was enough
16:07was more than enough to cover my
16:09expenses. So, even before I retired, I
16:13saved up 24 months worth of expenses
16:16just to, you know, have a nice
16:18Yeah, I'm I'm I'm very risk-seeking when
16:21it comes to investments. When it comes
16:22to life, I'm very risk-averse. So, I
16:25saved up 24 months worth of expenses
16:27even though I planned for 6 months. And
16:29so,
16:30yeah, the time just rolled on. I
16:31thought, "Oh, I'm really enjoying I'm
16:33really enjoying being able to travel,
16:35having autonomy."
16:37And so, it just became a point where I
16:40said, "Well, I don't fancy I don't see
16:42myself going back into a 9-to-5 for
16:44now." I never say never, of course. But
16:46you know, it has to be an offer I can't
16:48refuse. Godfather [laughter] reference.
16:51So, yeah, that's that's what happened.
16:54That's what happened. And you know, that
16:57because you had done all that work
16:58enabled you to be like, actually the 6
17:01months can extend to a year. I want to
17:03ask you so you said your savings rate,
17:05what was it? In the highest was what?
17:07Was around between 70 to 80%.
17:12I was very frugal with money. So, I came
17:16from a lifestyle of spending every penny
17:19and then some of what I earned to a
17:22point where because I was seeing the
17:24returns I was making and some of my
17:25investments had
17:27doubled, quadrupled in in size. That
17:31just I think it gave me a little bit of
17:33an addiction to investing. I don't say
17:36this
17:37in public. But I was a little bit
17:39addicted to investing because I could
17:41see the difference it was making and it
17:43built a cushion for me to think, "Well,
17:45if I lost my job today, God forbid, I I
17:49will be okay." You know, so
17:52it really helped me stop the frivolous
17:54spending and every year when we got
17:57bonuses, you know, as bankers do, 100%
18:00of that went into investments. I didn't
18:02spend any of it. No. So, I kept my costs
18:04really low.
18:06And I even talked about on one of my
18:07videos how much I pay for my mortgage
18:09right now, which people don't believe
18:10and I I understand why, but it's really
18:12low really really low for a
18:13three-bedroom, two
18:15two-bathroom house in London. But again,
18:17that's because I watch, you know,
18:19economic cycles and I remember my broker
18:21at that time saying to me, "Oh, let's
18:22lock it in for 2 years and then you can
18:24do 5 years or 7 years." I go, "No, no,
18:26no. Let's go for the extended period."
18:28And luckily I still have a few years of
18:30runway on this very low interest rate.
18:32So, things like that, you know.
18:34Um but yeah, that's sort of how I
18:35navigated.
18:36>> Okay, so what would you say
18:37>> [laughter]
18:38>> What would you say is the most frugal
18:40kind of thing you do cuz I'm trying to
18:41get people to think about how can they
18:43be a bit more
18:44frugal for themselves? Yeah. Uh
18:47there are lots of things that you can
18:49do. Obviously in London, living is just
18:53it's so [snorts] expensive. No thanks to
18:55Rachel from accounting as well.
18:58But there several things you can do. So,
19:00if you are perhaps, you know, renting or
19:03if you own a house for example, one of
19:05the things I did think about doing but I
19:07didn't end up doing it is, you know,
19:08maybe renting out a room in your home to
19:11bring in some income to help with your
19:12mortgage or if you're able to sublet for
19:15example, you can bring in income that
19:17way. Um being intentional as well about
19:19your spending. So, having a budget
19:21really helped me when I started. I
19:23didn't believe it initially. I just
19:24thought it's for or people and my
19:26parents. But you know, having a budget
19:28really helped me
19:29you know, see where everything was
19:31going. So, you need if you're serious
19:32about this, there's no other way. If you
19:34don't know what's coming in and what's
19:35going out, how do you know what you have
19:37left over to
19:38gift your future self with. So, a budget
19:41is really important. You sit down. It
19:42doesn't have to be anything complicated.
19:44There many sort of
19:46uh
19:47templates out there you can leverage. It
19:48doesn't have to be anything sort of um
19:51you know, expert. So, just having an
19:53incoming outgoing knowing what your
19:55income is, your expenses, your savings,
19:57your investments, things like that. So,
19:59a budget is really important.
20:02Planning your meals if you're that kind
20:03of individual, you know, knowing how
20:05much you spend every month on your
20:06meals. If you drive, maybe the cost of
20:09driving is a little bit too much. Maybe
20:11sometimes you can take, you know, the
20:12buses or the trains. So, there many
20:14things you can do. It just really
20:16depends on your lifestyle. One of my
20:18vices was
20:20shopping.
20:21I love coats. I have a weakness for
20:23coats and I spent a lot of money on my
20:25coats over the years. So, I had to sort
20:27of say, "Ah, okay. Now you have 30
20:29something coats. Maybe it's enough to
20:31That should be enough to see you through
20:32>> [laughter]
20:32>> the rest of your life. So, stop with the
20:35coats." So, you know, I had to cut back
20:36on spending on clothes as well and it's
20:38one of my biggest regrets cuz I I spent
20:41so much money on things I didn't need
20:43over the years and you learn as you go
20:45ahead. So,
20:46yeah. That's That's what I was saying.
20:48You know what you said you said
20:49something earlier which was interesting
20:51which was
20:53as you saw your investments rising it
20:55kind of got you to be even more frugal
20:58which is interesting cuz I feel like
20:59I've had a similar effect because you're
21:02always probably like calculating,
21:05but I could just invest this and make
21:07more money, but I've spent it and it's
21:10I think if people if people were to
21:13engage in investing more like that and
21:15they could see the growth, I think more
21:17people would would be more controlled
21:19with their money and see what they're
21:20losing out on.
21:21>> Yeah, because
21:23one of the ways I also and I'll say this
21:26is more recent maybe over the last 10
21:28years. One of the ways I've thought
21:29about my spending which is really helped
21:32is
21:33if I [clears throat] saw an I love
21:35antiques and I love sort of
21:37sort of vintage items. If I saw an item
21:40and I thought, "Okay, that's 2,000 or
21:413,000 or 5,000 pounds." I always think
21:44about it, right? If I was to invest this
21:45at X amount, what part of my expense can
21:48that cover?
21:49My council tax bill, my water and
21:52electricity, you know. So, I started
21:54thinking about it that way that if I'm
21:55to spend 5,000 on this, if I invest that
21:575,000 at maybe 10%, that's you know,
22:00that's a decent amount of money to earn
22:01every year. So, that also helps me curb
22:04my spending when I think about how much
22:07this money could be returning or
22:08compounding on itself versus giving it
22:11to a retailer. So, yeah, that helps as
22:14well. [laughter]
22:15So, as we mentioned, you actually
22:18achieved financial freedom in your 30s.
22:21What type of investments played the
22:23biggest role in helping you achieve
22:24that?
22:25Uh I think I would say four major types,
22:29maybe even five. So, I I own and run
22:32businesses at the moment, but they are
22:34businesses that don't require my
22:35physical presence. So, they are sort of
22:37front loaded, you know, all of the hard
22:39work is front loaded and they just run.
22:41So, I run businesses and I started those
22:43before um way before I I retired from my
22:479-5 job. So,
22:48businesses did help. Of course,
22:50investing in the stock markets,
22:52you know, whether that's directly stocks
22:54or ETFs, index funds, mutual funds, etc.
22:57I also own bonds. So, bonds are a heavy
23:00part of my portfolio actually.
23:02Whether that's investment grade or
23:03sub-investment grade sort of risk
23:05adjusted.
23:07And a little bit of crypto and real
23:09estate as well. Yeah. Okay. And we're
23:11going to talk a bit about crypto. It's
23:13interesting cuz you you you did crypto a
23:15little bit,
23:17right? As well.
23:19Okay. So, businesses and which out of
23:22those
23:23those four five which would you say has
23:26for you brought brought in the most
23:27income? Has it been the businesses? Has
23:29it been the bonds? Has it been ETF
23:31stocks?
23:31>> yeah. No, I think I would say
23:35>> [sighs and gasps]
23:36>> almost equally stocks, bonds and real
23:39estate. Yeah.
23:42In terms of income generating assets,
23:44yeah, I would say those have been
23:47the biggest, but the way I've set my
23:49portfolio which is what I'd say to
23:50anyone of course is you have to have
23:52that diversity. So, some assets will
23:54work towards your income or your cash
23:56flow and others will work or function as
23:58your capital growing assets. So, that's
24:01sort of how I set up my portfolio.
24:02>> Yeah. You know, sometimes what I
24:05struggle with is so the income stuff is
24:08makes sense and I've I've spoken about
24:09that on the podcast in terms of like,
24:11you know, looking at dividend
24:13ETFs and dividend stocks and stuff like
24:15that and I think, you know, that's quite
24:16well versed like you can Google that and
24:18people can find lists and stuff like
24:19that. But the capital growth one is
24:21interesting. How does somebody figure
24:23out,
24:25okay,
24:26how does somebody get into the mind of
24:28frame of being like, "Okay, I've grown
24:30this 100 pot." I'm giving a silly
24:33example here. "I've grown this 100 pot
24:35to 1,000 for example.
24:38How do I draw off that? What's like a
24:40general rule to know? Let's say the
24:42thousand Sorry. Let me Let's say the
24:43thousand is enough. It covers the
24:45expense. They've got 10 pound expense a
24:46month roughly. How does someone know,
24:49okay, I can start chipping off this
24:52capital growth? Cuz that's very
24:53different to like when you're getting
24:54income, you know, every month. Yeah.
24:57>> So,
24:58when you are sat with a financial
25:01advisor, one of the things they'd like
25:02to understand is what is your objective
25:05when it comes to your portfolio. So, for
25:07some people it's income generation. I
25:09just I I'm not really fussed about
25:11whether or not my capital grows as long
25:13as it's protected, but I want income
25:15from it. For others, it is capital
25:17growth. I don't really care about
25:19income. Maybe I'm still working or I'm,
25:21you know, I've inherited some I don't
25:23really care about income. I just want my
25:25capital to grow every year. And for some
25:27people it's a mix of that. So, I think
25:30and that is also
25:32to some extent based on your risk
25:34tolerance as well. You know, how much
25:36risk do you want to take in the markets,
25:37etc. and with your investments. So, if
25:40you are looking to
25:43perhaps you've covered the income side
25:45of your
25:46of your investment portfolios and you're
25:48looking for capital growth, there are
25:50certain stocks or certain assets that
25:52can lend themselves towards that. So,
25:55for example, bonds are on the safer side
25:58of the investment spectrum generally.
26:00You do have of course your junk bonds or
26:02your sort of high risk bonds, but
26:05generally and also you do have your
26:07investment grade bonds which are the
26:08safest bonds you can get. So, bonds are
26:11not the sort of assets you buy to
26:14increase your wealth per se because
26:16they're they're more income generating
26:18assets. It's not to say that they can't
26:20rise and fall.
26:21Uh you do have perpetual bonds that you
26:23sort of go on ad infinitum until perhaps
26:25the issue of calls them back, but stocks
26:28for example, growth stocks are what you
26:30know, one of the sectors or sort of the
26:32the
26:33parts of investing to watch. So, a lot
26:35of tech stocks for example, Nvidia I'm
26:37not This is not advice by the way. It's
26:39not financial advice. I don't like to
26:40mention specific companies when I'm I'm
26:42giving an example. Nvidia for example, I
26:44don't believe pays dividends. So, that
26:46would be classed as a growth stock
26:47because it's
26:49they plow a lot of their sort of
26:51revenues back into growing the business
26:52and becoming, you know, they've just hit
26:54I think 5 trillion dollars in terms of
26:57first in history in terms of market
26:59valuation, but there are some stocks
27:00that are sort of growth stocks and
27:02others that are
27:03value stocks, you know. So, value stocks
27:05are stocks that are more mature. They're
27:07income generating stocks. They pay out
27:09dividends, whereas growth stocks tend to
27:11be more tech heavy stocks, you know,
27:13stocks that they're just looking to sort
27:14of keep expanding, etc. So, some assets
27:16in your portfolio
27:18again, I don't want to speak too much
27:19about crypto, but you know, crypto is
27:21not
27:22although now you do have some cryptos
27:24that are income generating when you sort
27:26of lock them up or stake them,
27:28initially back in the day there was
27:30nothing like that. It was just a you
27:32know, crypto was seen as an asset to
27:35skyrocket in terms of valuation. So, it
27:37really it's a it's a mix really, but it
27:39really depends on what you're after in
27:41your portfolio. Yeah.
27:43Um can I get you to explain something
27:45for us? Obviously, we we jargon free
27:47podcast. I don't want to be fair. You're
27:48an educator as well. You're like it. So,
27:50when you say investment grade bond just
27:52to be clear, what's that? What's the
27:53investment grade bond?
27:53>> Okay. So, versus junk bond. Yeah.
27:56>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. No, that's a
27:57good question. So, in the
28:00bond spectrum, you have
28:02what's called investment grade bonds.
28:04These are the highest rated bonds. So,
28:06they have low credit risks.
28:09Sorry if I'm blocking the camera. Low
28:10credit risks. So, things like government
28:12bonds, A rated bonds, triple A rated
28:15bonds, I think all the way to double B,
28:17I believe. Don't quote me, but I think
28:18so. So, these are the safest kind of
28:20bonds you have where the issuers maybe
28:23have you know, think about your really
28:25really blue chip large companies that
28:28have a lot of cash, you know, backing
28:30and they they've been around for a very
28:32long time. Just low credit rate low
28:34credit risk rather and higher credit
28:36rating. So, you know, government bonds,
28:38etc. And then you have So, the US
28:40government for example is seen as one of
28:42the safest
28:44assets to invest in the US government
28:46bonds, UK government bonds, etc. And
28:48then on the on the flip side of that at
28:50the lower end of the spectrum, you have
28:52what you call sub-investment grade or
28:54junk bonds. I don't like the term junk,
28:56but you know, that's what it is.
28:57It's such a weird term, right?
28:59>> It is very
29:00>> [laughter]
29:00>> It is or speculative grade is is called
29:02as well. And these are the higher risk
29:05bonds that, you know, they will because
29:07they are higher risk, they would have to
29:09of course entice investors. So, they
29:11tend to list their bonds at higher
29:13coupon rates. So, higher risk, higher
29:16credit risk and lower credit rating, but
29:19higher returns. So, that's sort of the
29:22spectrum across bonds. So, when we talk
29:23about bonds, are we talking about
29:25sub-investment grades or investment
29:26grade bonds, etc. So, I hope that sort
29:28of clarifies.
29:29>> Yeah. Thanks. No, thank you for
29:30explaining that. Yeah, cuz we haven't
29:31talked about the different grades to
29:35bond. You know, I was learning about
29:36this recently about the credit ratings
29:38and it's So, the way I would like people
29:40to kind of think about it is like we
29:43have credit ratings. It's a similar type
29:45of concept. So, that's why That's how I
29:47liken it to you.
29:48>> You've got credit ratings, business have
29:50credit ratings, too. So, that's how I
29:52like It's just a very simple example.
29:54Yeah, yeah. You can use it.
29:56>> [laughter]
29:56>> I won't charge you for that.
29:58>> [gasps]
29:58>> Uh so, yeah. No, thank you for for um
30:01explaining that. And also, thank you for
30:03like sharing, you know, you know, in
30:04terms of like how your, you know, your
30:06portfolio is uh kind of made up. The
30:09real estate one was quite interesting
30:10because many people do seem to be in in
30:13real estate. And the bond was I was
30:14actually quite surprised about um bonds,
30:17but it does make sense, especially like
30:19the income portion of it as well. Yeah.
30:22And the reason my bonds are sort of on
30:25par is because, of course, there's a
30:28chunk I've been investing for a while.
30:30So, when I speak about my investments, I
30:32I try to be very careful so people don't
30:33think I started 2 years ago. But um I'm
30:36very risk-seeking with my investments. I
30:38always have been. Maybe as I'm growing
30:40older, I need to sort of taper that a
30:41little, but when I talk about the bonds,
30:43it's a combination of high-risk bonds as
30:46well as, you know, to small degree,
30:49investment-grade bonds. So, Mhm. yeah.
30:52Bonds that yield maybe double digits or
30:54close to double digits, but they're very
30:56risky. Okay. Wow. Yeah, that's why I'm
31:00able to sort of Okay.
31:02>> there's a mix of things in there.
31:03>> Okay. Well, we're going to talk about
31:05aggressive literally
31:07one question away. I wanted to talk
31:09about that period. So, roughly how much
31:10did you start with and over what period
31:12were you consistently investing before
31:14you could like wait cuz obviously you
31:15just mentioned that. Yeah.
31:17>> You didn't just start yesterday, so. So,
31:19it's very difficult It's been a while.
31:21It's very difficult to give you an exact
31:23number, but I think I would say maybe
31:24around 10 to 20,000. It wasn't, you
31:27know, I didn't start with 100k cuz I
31:28didn't have it at that that point. But
31:30maybe around sort of 20,000 pounds um I
31:34definitely started. I bought a property.
31:36I don't like to class that as the start
31:38of my investment. It's my uh residential
31:40property, but I bought a property at
31:42that point. But in terms of stock market
31:44investing, I'd say yeah, maybe around
31:4620,000.
31:47>> Okay. I've been doing it for I'd say
31:48close to
31:50uh closer to decades, actually. So,
31:52around 18 18 years?
31:54>> Yeah, 18 19 years. Were you doing 20k a
31:56year? Or did you start with 20k in the
31:58last
31:59time?
31:59>> with 20k. But as
32:01Correct. Yes. As time goes on and you
32:03earn a little bit more, you know, you
32:05increase your Yeah. 18 years is a long
32:07time. How did you
32:08>> It's a while.
32:10Conviction to stay like for 18 years,
32:13what made you
32:15stay for 18 years? It was the addiction.
32:18>> [laughter]
32:20>> The addiction to the money going up.
32:22>> Yeah. So, it was it was um
32:24I think I Honestly, I As I said to you,
32:27I had a plan to retire by the age of 50.
32:29I'm just not I've always known that I
32:31was someone who wanted autonomy earlier
32:34than than 65 or 70 because
32:38you know, when people ask me, "Why did
32:40you retire from your 9-to-5 job this
32:42early?" I say, "Well,
32:44you can always And I don't mean to sound
32:47arrogant, but you can always find work."
32:49And I've worked on my CV to an extent
32:51where even a job in McDonald's I'll
32:53take, you know, but I'm joking. But on a
32:55more serious note, you can always find
32:57work, but I felt like I want to spend my
33:00youth. I want to buy back some of my
33:02youth to just enjoy it, doing the things
33:04that I'd like to do when I'm 70, but
33:07hips [snorts] hurting, knee replacement,
33:09all of those things won't allow me to
33:11So, I say to them that I can always find
33:14work, but my youth not so much. I can't
33:16get that back once it's done. So,
33:18yeah, that's sort of why I embarked upon
33:20that. But
33:21going back to your question on staying
33:23the course, I could see the results.
33:27Don't get me wrong, you know,
33:28[clears throat] some of my positions
33:29were very sort of, you know, volatile,
33:31but just seeing how you're building
33:33wealth for your future. It was for me it
33:35was all about when I'm 50 and I look
33:37back, am I going to be comfortable to
33:39say, "Okay, you know, I think I can
33:40survive on this?" You know, versus I
33:42spent all my money now. So, it's it's
33:44about
33:45either
33:48compounding and growing your wealth for
33:49your future self or consuming all of
33:51that now and having nothing, you know,
33:53at that age. So, that's really what kept
33:55me going. I just loved seeing how my
33:58portfolio was growing and, you know,
33:59investing in very interesting asset
34:02classes as well. Yeah.
34:03>> Yeah. I've got interesting question for
34:04you, right? Now that you've done the 18
34:07years, what did it feel as long
34:11as it's now been? Cuz you know, a lot of
34:12people when they if when we're saying to
34:14them, "Guys, invest for 20 years."
34:16They're probably thinking in their
34:19>> [laughter]
34:19>> Now that you've been through it You've
34:21been through this. Did it feel that long
34:23for you? I tell you, time goes by when
34:26you're having fun. It really does. Um
34:28well, don't forget I was working for a
34:31lot of that time. So,
34:32it just I look back and I'm thinking,
34:35"Gosh, has it been that long already?"
34:36you know.
34:39But I think the time just flies by
34:42because for me especially cuz I was
34:44working. I was doing other things. I was
34:46traveling. I was, you know, taking
34:47professional exams and all of that. So,
34:49it didn't
34:50it doesn't feel that long, you know. I
34:52still feel like I'm in my 20s, but um
34:55yeah, I think when you're kept busy, the
34:58time just goes by. It just flies by. So,
35:00I know a lot of people want, you know,
35:02abundant wealth in 2 years and 5 years.
35:04It's possible, you know, perhaps if you
35:06won the lottery or you came into wealth
35:08somehow, but
35:10I always like to think about investing
35:12on a long-term basis because for a lot
35:14of people that would be the case. It has
35:16to be on a long-term basis. So, just,
35:18you know, keep going. Yeah. Why is that
35:20important that people should try to be a
35:22bit more long-term and think long-term
35:25and actually
35:27I guess the question I'm asking you is
35:29because although you were investing,
35:31your your life wasn't
35:34being hindered Mhm. in a way, right? You
35:37were still able to do things, but in
35:40your money was growing on the side.
35:42>> Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So,
35:45it um
35:46a lot of things will be dependent on
35:48your income level. I have to stress
35:50that. You know, you can get to
35:52millionaire status on low income, but it
35:55will take a long time and it will take a
35:57lot of, you know, dedication and
35:59commitment, but um we talk about
36:01long-term investments because you have
36:03to give your portfolio the room to grow
36:06and compound on itself. If this thing
36:08was so easy and if it was, you know, an
36:11exponential thing within a short space
36:13of time, you would have more
36:14millionaires than you have today. I
36:16think the last record shows that we have
36:181.6 million indivi- 1.6% of the global
36:22population are millionaires. Yeah. Uh
36:24and just 10 years before that it was
36:260.7%. So, it's not like you have 10% of
36:29the popu- you know, so the point being
36:31that it does take time. So, when you
36:33look at the S&P 500, for example, if you
36:35look at the small segment of it, so
36:37let's say over the last 5 years, you'll
36:40see a lot of volatility. So, some people
36:42unfortunately they have bought at the
36:43highs and sold at the lows, which is not
36:46what you want. But if you extend that
36:48over a 100-year period, you start to see
36:50that upward swing. So, you need to give
36:53your investments time to to grow because
36:56especially in the stock market, you're
36:57investing in underlying companies and so
37:00operations need to sort of extend,
37:02expand, and grow over time. And so does
37:05your investment portfolio. So, it's
37:06important you think about it on a
37:08long-term basis so you don't make the
37:09mistake of losing money because you're
37:11chasing the bottom and, you know,
37:13chasing
37:14um trying to trade alongside volatility.
37:17No one can predict the future. Mhm.
37:19Yeah. And this is the thing I think the
37:21whole, you know, trying to get rich
37:23quick and stuff like that. I think if
37:26you're in that mindset, it's likely
37:27you're probably going to blow it quick,
37:28too. Mhm. Yeah. Rush in, rush out.
37:31>> Exactly.
37:32>> Right? If you're a bit slower, it's more
37:34considered. You I think I believe you
37:36appreciate it more. That's just, you
37:38know, my belief. And I think it's more
37:40of a balance. So, as we mentioned, you
37:42said you were very aggressive investor.
37:44What did that look like in practice and
37:46how did you manage risk along the way?
37:49Uh so, [sighs and gasps]
37:50I As I mentioned, every time I got paid,
37:53every time I got a bonus, every time I
37:55got an inflow of cash, that went
37:58straight into either savings or
37:59investments.
38:01Um and so, I was very
38:04consistent with ensuring that, you know,
38:07I was investing every single month,
38:09every year. I had my targets to hit
38:10every year. It didn't always happen.
38:12Sometimes I didn't hit my targets. Other
38:15years I exceeded it, which was
38:17fantastic. So, I just kept being
38:19consistent. I kept going. But also, in
38:21terms of my positions, I would maybe put
38:24on currency hedges as well. So, if I was
38:26cuz I'm a uh
38:28GBP or
38:29a pound-based investor. So, when you
38:32invest in US assets, there is a currency
38:34conversion that happens. And so, if I
38:37had a heavy position in a US asset, for
38:39example, I might use currencies to hedge
38:41back depending on where I thought the
38:43pound was going to be, you know, so
38:45Okay. things like that. I was also
38:46watching my positions by uh keeping an
38:49eye out for research on the companies
38:51or, you know, if you're investing in
38:52ETFs, just understand what's going on
38:54with the managers and things like that.
38:56So, that's really how I managed risk uh
38:58from that perspective. So, I had a mix,
39:00as I said, in my portfolio. Mhm.
39:03Even though I was aggressive in terms of
39:05the percentage I was investing, I also
39:07had to make sure I had a diversified
39:09portfolio so I didn't plow 100% into
39:12stocks or 100% into bonds. It was, you
39:14know, I had a selection of things in my
39:16portfolio. So, yeah.
39:17>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's good. So, you
39:19were diverse, but I mean, you're you're
39:22quite educated in this area. So, you
39:24know, you I feel like you had a bit of
39:25>> [laughter]
39:26>> fun
39:27investing. A little bit. It's a little
39:28bit. No, it it it did help, of course,
39:31that I worked in banking. That You know,
39:33you get a lot of information. You're
39:35never allowed to inside trade, so that's
39:37a no-no. Um but you know, just seeing
39:39the markets every day. You wake up at
39:416:00 a.m. you read what's happened the
39:43day before before everyone gets into
39:45work. It's just you get that practice of
39:47understanding the markets um and you
39:50know, when you trade for clients, when
39:51you speak to clients, when you manage
39:52portfolios, you have to be
39:53forward-thinking as well. You know, when
39:55you manage wealth for wealthy
39:57individuals. So, yeah, that really
39:58helps. Yeah, really helps.
40:00>> Yeah, I think diversification is very
40:02important and just having this
40:03understanding of, you know, investing
40:06even at basic levels good even if you're
40:08just going to do ETF just really have an
40:09understanding. But I think having an
40:10appreciation for what's going on in the
40:12world is important. We're going to talk
40:13about why that's important because at
40:14the end of the day all of these things
40:16are connected, right? And it's your
40:18livelihood. Not to say that you have to
40:20be an investing guru like Warren Buffett
40:22or anything like that or Ray Dalio.
40:23Don't have to be that. But I think
40:25showing an interest and appreciation
40:28for um the arena I think is important.
40:30>> I agree. So, you also mentioned to me
40:32that your faith shapes how you think
40:34about money investing. In what ways do
40:36you think it gives you a different
40:37perspective on, you know, risk and
40:39wealth again? Yeah, so I was raised in a
40:41Christian household and I tried to live
40:45my life according to, you know, backed
40:47by biblical scripture. And there's one
40:50particular verse in the Bible that I
40:51absolutely love and it talks about
40:54diversification.
40:56It's um Ecclesiastes, I believe it's 11
40:59verse two that talks about it says,
41:02"Invest in seven ventures, yes, eight
41:04ventures because you never know when
41:06calamity will hit and you never know
41:08which one of those will stick." Um
41:11there's another verse that talks about
41:13diligence leading to abundance and
41:16hastiness leading to poverty. So,
41:20but the Bible also talks about not being
41:22greedy and not putting your faith in
41:24earthly possessions. So, I tried to sort
41:26of I think those two instructions or
41:28those two parts of instructions have
41:29their place. So, you know, when
41:32positions are going high high high and
41:33you're thinking, "Oh, just you know, one
41:35more day or one just nip it." You
41:37>> [laughter]
41:38>> Sometimes you have to Sell when you need
41:40to sell. Sell when you need to sell.
41:43Don't get too greedy. But then on the
41:45other hand, it encourages you to explore
41:47and you know, just have options because
41:49you never know which one of those will
41:51be your protector when the time comes.
41:54So, I I've always tried to mirror that
41:56when I invest and you just generally how
41:58I live my life as well. So, yeah.
42:00>> Yeah. Yeah, really really appreciate
42:01that and
42:03I think those are great like scriptures
42:05for people to follow by and principles
42:07because, you know, as you mentioned,
42:09right?
42:10An investor, I think the other side of
42:12things that we don't talk enough about
42:14is the selling part. We get to a selling
42:15part. We hit our goal, but it's like you
42:17say that greed is there like ooh, let's
42:19get another 10%. Let's get another 100.
42:20[laughter]
42:21Guys, look, we hit it. Why why are we
42:23not selling? Yeah. Yeah, I think
42:26especially if you are a short-term
42:28trader, maybe a day trader, you know,
42:31it's the the temptation is there to keep
42:33going um and not sort of exiting
42:36positions when you've put a stop you
42:38know, stop limits perhaps on your on
42:41your position. So, yeah, for me I'm a
42:44long-term investor, but there have been
42:45times when I took advantage of
42:47corrections or dislocations in the
42:49markets. But I don't do that often, but
42:51you know, when there's an opportunity I
42:53might take it. So, it's just it's good
42:54to have that principle from the start
42:57and just stick to it.
42:58>> Yeah.
42:59>> Yeah. And the the multiple streams of
43:01income I think is good and your journey
43:03is it shows that, right? You got like
43:05five, six you know, streams of income,
43:07but you were building those over time,
43:10you know, which is
43:11um another thing that I think people
43:12need to consider that. Just a little bit
43:14of patience, people. Enjoy life, but be
43:17patient. We don't need to We don't need
43:19to have everything now. Now, if you are
43:21one of those people that really really
43:24wants
43:25I don't know. I was in Miami like a few
43:28weeks a few weeks I literally go back
43:30last week. You're one of those people
43:31that you want to live in Miami, you want
43:33the nice penthouse.
43:35You know what? I don't need to tell you
43:37what you need to do to do that. I think
43:39I think you should be well aware what
43:40you need to do if you want to be one of
43:42those kind of people, right? That does
43:44that. Um or if you want to be a person
43:47that it takes a bit more time, you're
43:49going to have more of
43:51balance in your life because, you know,
43:53when you mentioned before you said that
43:55you're working a lot, right? And it was
43:57taking away from other things and that's
43:58that's what it is. There's going to be a
43:59trade-off and I think you have to
44:01understand what those, you know, what
44:03those trade-offs are for sure.
44:04Absolutely. Um so, on that note, what
44:06would you say is the best way for
44:07someone to build an investment portfolio
44:09that can realistically realistically
44:12replace their salary?
44:14So, that's a great question and I'll say
44:16that there isn't a one-size-fits-all
44:19when it comes to this. There are lots of
44:22personal finance advisers or, you know,
44:25content online and you know, they they
44:27say, "Oh, this is the way to do it." It
44:29might work for some people, it mightn't
44:30work for others. The one thing I will
44:32say, however, is that your income or
44:34your salary is for most people, not
44:37everyone, for most people that will be
44:40the seed capital that funds your
44:42investments. So, please be nice to your
44:44employers and be polite.
44:47But no, seriously though, your income is
44:49going to be the base that forms all of
44:51this. So, it's very important to respect
44:54that. Uh when people say they want to
44:56retire at 22 or 25, I it's a bit
45:00difficult for me to
45:01>> [laughter]
45:02>> to speak on that, but I think that it's
45:04it's important to
45:06at least see that as as the base. Your
45:08income is going to be what helps you in
45:10the future. But like I said, there are
45:12different ways to do this because it
45:13really depends on several things. Things
45:16like your risk profile as I said before,
45:19your time horizon. Do you have 20, 30
45:21years? Do you have 10 years perhaps? Um
45:24you know, what sort of assets you'd like
45:25to be invested in. But I think the
45:27overarching principle or the framework
45:30within which to get there stays the
45:32same.
45:33You have to ensure that you're keeping
45:35your expenses low.
45:37Uh make sure that you are saving and
45:39investing. So, before you do anything
45:40else, it's always prudent to have your
45:42life happens fund or emergency fund as I
45:45I like to call it your life happens
45:46fund. Um some people say you need three
45:50to six months of savings. It all
45:51depends, you know, do what what works
45:53best for you. Uh but you should have
45:55that in place before you start any of
45:57this because the last thing you want to
45:58do is having to draw down on your
46:00portfolio because an event an unforeseen
46:04circumstances happened and you know,
46:06you unfortunately have to draw down when
46:08we have a recession and things are low.
46:09So, you don't want to to do that. But I
46:11would say that, you know, if you're
46:12starting out, start small. Especially if
46:15you're doing this by yourself and you're
46:17not seeking professional advice. It's
46:18really important that you just start
46:20small,
46:21test things out, see how you feel, what
46:23you know, works for you and what sort of
46:26assets excites you
46:28and keep with the consistency as well.
46:30So, I would also say it's prudent to
46:33have diversification if you can.
46:36I started small. I started with one
46:38thing and then it grew into other
46:39things. Uh so, I know that some
46:42investments have minimum investment
46:44amounts which means that you can't dip
46:45in if you don't have maybe a thousand or
46:4710,000, but you don't have to start at
46:49that level. Start small. If you're
46:51starting with equities for example and
46:53you are not well versed or you are not
46:55an expert on stock picking, you can go
46:58for index funds,
47:00uh mutual funds or ETFs. So, instead of
47:03looking for that tiny
47:05um jewel on the crown so to speak, you
47:07can just buy the entire crown. Just buy
47:09the entire market so you have exposure
47:11to everything in the market. So, just be
47:14prudent as to how you go about it, but
47:16you you have to start small and build
47:17from there. It's a learning curve, you
47:19know, so you will make mistakes
47:21initially. It's almost inevitable, but
47:24don't let that stop you. Just keep
47:25going. Yeah. I agree. I think like even
47:28like myself like investing in it if I
47:30look back, I think definitely the ETF
47:32index route is it's 100% probably if you
47:35were to invest in stock market, it's
47:37probably the better way to
47:40get to know the stock market because
47:43it's, you know, you know, the value of
47:45your investment. Of course, it could
47:47still go down. It likely will, but it's
47:50not going to hopefully doesn't hit too
47:52hard. It's not going down 20% in a day,
47:5430% in a day. So, you're a little bit
47:57more climatized. And then if you want to
47:59go into stock picking, then you can then
48:01start to understand it a bit more deep
48:03dive. It's like you're kind of It's like
48:05almost you're educating yourself, but
48:06it's like you're going through a degree,
48:08right? Like, you know, you don't you
48:09don't you know, start a degree and then
48:11they're teaching you third third year
48:13topics. They're teaching you first year
48:14topics to get into the basis then it's
48:16second year then it's third year and I
48:18think people need to kind of do that in
48:20that way um as well because investing is
48:22such like it's such a these days and
48:25we'll talk about it offline as well like
48:27the the access to it is amazing.
48:29Like the fact that you can now do this
48:32on your phone. £1 that's all you need to
48:35start. Can invest cuz I remember when I
48:38was going to
48:39start again cuz I hadn't invested before
48:42and so I was doing it I started it with
48:45index funds, too. Um dipped out because
48:47I I bought my bought my property. Then I
48:49was getting back into the market. And I
48:51was looking to cuz I was one of those
48:53people, right? Like like you I was like,
48:55"Okay, how can I be a bit more
48:57aggressive?" So, I was um I can't
48:59remember what the word was.
49:00Asymmetrical. Somebody said, "Oh, you
49:02need to look at asymmetrical bets." So,
49:04I was looking at a certain sector. Okay.
49:08I was like, "Okay, so how do I buy these
49:09stocks?" And then one of the platforms
49:11was like I wasn't even going to put a
49:13lot of money in. I was just like I just
49:14want to buy 100 and then see how Yeah.
49:16They're going to charge me £15. I was
49:17like,
49:18"What's the point of that?
49:19>> [laughter]
49:19>> I'm not going to do that. That's
49:20expensive." Now now you can do it for
49:23one Now you don't even
49:25Now the fees are a lot less than £15,
49:28you know, and that's just been in the
49:29last few years. So, we are we do have a
49:32very, you know, big wealth building
49:34opportunity with us today. So, if you
49:36had to name six types of investments
49:38that can replace someone's salary, what
49:40would they be in your opinion?
49:43Okay. So, if you've been investing or if
49:45you have longevity in terms of
49:48allocating time to investments, so I I
49:51keep saying this, it's not going to be
49:52an overnight event. I would say that
49:56real estate is definitely a good one.
49:59Um
50:00of course, stock markets, whether you go
50:01directly stock picking or whether you do
50:03it through an ETF. But that takes time.
50:06That's a good one. Bonds could
50:08potentially be a good one. So, this is a
50:10combination of these things unless you
50:12have quite a lot of capital to invest.
50:16It most likely will be a combination of
50:17these things. Also, to manage your risk
50:18as I keep talking about. So, bonds are a
50:21good one. Starting a business is always
50:23helpful. You can go into maybe
50:25commodities trading, but I don't know
50:27how much income you'll make from that.
50:29Um but commodities are good one and
50:31maybe a little bit of crypto as well. Um
50:34you know, the safer coins or the biggest
50:36coins. So, some sort of combination of
50:38that would help if you don't have you
50:40know, a million or or 5 million or 10
50:42million to invest. So, yeah. Yeah.
50:44>> Those are not bad assets to to look
50:47into. I have a question for you. In
50:48terms of like ETFs, cuz I know we don't
50:50want to talk about stocks. Cuz I I also
50:52try and shy my way about unless I'm
50:54talking from a perspective of
50:56understanding what they're doing or
50:58understanding what the company is doing.
51:00ETFs, right? Dividend ETFs, are there
51:02any that you've heard of that are
51:05a bit more well-known that, you know, Um
51:08there are a few. So, I think that the
51:12more famous ones, if I can put it that
51:14way, are the ones that So, I won't give
51:15any specific tickers. Uh tickers are the
51:18symbols that you can use in buying them.
51:19But the ones that follow the broader
51:21bigger markets like the US, you know,
51:24the you have a few that follow the US
51:26markets. Uh that follow European
51:29markets, maybe Asian markets. So, yeah,
51:31there are a few I've heard about that
51:33are
51:34quite decent in terms of their coverage.
51:36Um but with all of these funds, ETFs,
51:38index funds, and mutual funds, uh you
51:40can have
51:41sector specific So, you don't have to If
51:44you don't want to buy the entire market.
51:46So, let's say you were interested in the
51:48energy sector or utilities or tech or
51:52even AI, you can actually buy funds that
51:55cover those specific sectors. You don't
51:57have to buy the entire market. So, it
51:59really depends. But there are some, you
52:01know, there's some decent ones. So, just
52:03Google it and show you a few of them
52:04will come up.
52:05>> [laughter]
52:06>> And for someone who wants to earn about
52:081,000 pounds a month in passive income,
52:10roughly how much would they need
52:12invested to reach that goal? I get that
52:14question a lot. Yeah, I'm sure you do.
52:16I'm sure you do. Yeah. It is a good one.
52:19Um
52:21So, this question
52:23uh
52:24it's a it's a little bit it's a broad
52:27question and it requires a broad answer.
52:29And I'll tell you why.
52:31So, to get 1,000 pounds a month, let's
52:33say we start with equities, for example.
52:35Just focus on equities.
52:38Taking the UK markets, the FTSE 100,
52:40which is um the the flagship stock
52:43market in the UK,
52:44the yield right now is dividend yield,
52:46it's not the total returns. But the
52:48dividend yields are around
52:503 to 4%.
52:52So, let's take the higher range of that,
52:54which is 4%. So, on a realistic basis,
52:57making 4% annually in terms of
52:59dividends,
53:00if you wanted 1,000 pounds a month, that
53:02would set you back 300 thousand pounds.
53:06Mhm. Capital, at least initial capital.
53:08>> Yeah. Um and then you can grow it from
53:10there.
53:11So, that's the sort of level you'd be
53:12looking at if you invested in that say
53:13the the FTSE 100.
53:15In the bond markets, as we talked about,
53:17there are investment grade bonds, like I
53:19said. Those will
53:21return you lower because they are safer.
53:24So, you might be able to clip between
53:26maybe four, well, historically 1% if
53:29you're lucky. But nowadays, maybe 3, 4%
53:32given where interest rates are. Um
53:35maybe even slightly lower.
53:37And then on the flip side of that, you
53:38have bonds that pay, like I said,
53:40sometimes into double digits. So, let's
53:42say you're earning 10% on the bond, you
53:45only need 120,000
53:47pounds.
53:48So, it really varies. Let's come to real
53:50estate. On the real estate side, with 60
53:54to 100,000, you can be clipping easily
53:581,250
53:59or more every month. Uh because in the
54:02UK, I believe the cap rates, which is
54:04like your return on investment, is
54:06around 4 to 8%. That's the average
54:08range. So,
54:10to answer your question, I would pose
54:11another question. How long is a piece of
54:13string? It really depends on who you
54:15have in front of you.
54:16>> Okay. What their portfolio mix is, which
54:19itself will be informed by your risk
54:21tolerance and your ability to take
54:23risks. It it's it varies at all.
54:26>> Okay. Okay. No, thank you for giving us
54:28the different examples and across the
54:29range. Yeah. No, because I think it's
54:31important that you answered it that way
54:32because I think it gets people to think
54:35in that way
54:36>> Yes.
54:36>> and not think one way. And it goes back
54:39to diversity. Okay, maybe in some maybe
54:41some of your investments are yielding 3,
54:444%.
54:44>> Mhm. Maybe these others are higher, 5,
54:466%. Maybe and then you then across it's
54:50giving you, I don't know, 7% or whatever
54:53it is. But I'm glad that you mentioned
54:54that because I think people need to have
54:56an appreciation for
54:57all of these aspects of it, which which
54:59is the reason why on the podcast I talk
55:01about all of these things so that you
55:03can figure out I mean, if you just
55:05wanted to just do the stock market,
55:06you're like, "Look, I'm not bothered
55:07about the rest. I don't want to do it. I
55:08don't want to do property. I don't want
55:09to do Yeah. I don't want to start a
55:11business. Fine. That's up to you, you
55:14know. Um but at the same time, I think
55:16it's important that, you know, people
55:18are aware that you can
55:19>> Absolutely. think about it and do it in
55:20that way, too. I appreciate that. Thank
55:22you. Of course. Um so,
55:25when we spoke, you mentioned the term
55:27patient capital, which I think is a is a
55:29is a brilliant term. What is it and why
55:31is it so important?
55:32>> Mhm. So, in the finance world, I think
55:35when people mention that, they refer to
55:37patient capital. That's usually used
55:41when it comes to investing in maybe
55:43private ventures or private um
55:46sort of not listed uh stocks or bonds or
55:49things like that. So, private
55:50businesses. So, patient capital really
55:51refers to not your widow's mite, not
55:54what you need as an emergency. This is
55:56money that you can allow to grow and
55:59compound on itself for maybe decades,
56:01for example. So, not money that you need
56:04uh imminently. So, you need to allow It
56:07has to be money that you can put away
56:08for 10, 20 years or more and not have to
56:12access it. That's what patient capital
56:14refers to. It's sort of If you think
56:16about if you're investing in a startup,
56:18for example, you won't necessarily
56:20expect returns until it's past that
56:23J-curve phenomenon where the the company
56:25has to sort of grow. And so, you're
56:26waiting maybe 5, 10 or more years. So,
56:30it's really a term that's used in
56:31private equity investments to say,
56:34"Okay, you have to be patient and, you
56:36know, allow and venture capital
56:37investments as well, allow your capital
56:39grow." So, that's what patient capital
56:40refers to.
56:41>> Okay. But it's something we should bring
56:43into the the retail
56:45retail world. No, because if people
56:47thought about it like that, then I think
56:50that again, then they would think about
56:52their wealth-building horizon
56:53>> Yeah. on a you know, bit of a longer
56:55term and then they're giving them
56:56themselves time more time to build
56:58wealth. Yeah, I mean, it it's to be
57:00honest, the same principle applies to
57:03retail investors. Majority of those who
57:06are looking to build wealth will be
57:07building wealth over the long term. That
57:10long term term tends to stick when we
57:13talk about personal finance because
57:17if you are able to achieve your goals in
57:19a shorter period, fantastic. That's
57:21great. But in reality, and I think for
57:24most people, this will be long term
57:26anyway. So, it patient capital does sort
57:28of transfer as well to the retail
57:30sector. Yeah. Yeah.
57:32So, over 70% of people who watch these
57:34episodes are subscribed. If that's you,
57:36hit the subscribe button. It really
57:38supports the channel. It helps it grow.
57:39And most importantly, lets us keep
57:41bringing you valuable conversations like
57:42this one. Plus, you'll be the first one
57:44to know when new episodes drop. Thank
57:45you so much for your support so far and
57:47enjoy the rest of the show. In your
57:49experience, what are the biggest
57:50mistakes people make when trying to
57:52chase early retirement too quickly?
57:54Yeah, so I've heard about the FIRE
57:55movement. I actually heard about it 3, 4
57:58years ago. I never Have you I never
57:59heard about the FIRE movement? But it's
58:01it's quite interesting. So, I think that
58:03um there are a few things that one would
58:06have to think about if you are looking
58:08to perhaps retire earlier than the
58:11official age. Um but the a few mistakes
58:14people make is that they
58:18So, when you're starting out, perhaps,
58:20or when you've been doing this for a
58:21while, you don't really have a
58:22diversified portfolio. So, that risk
58:24hedging is not really there. Um people
58:27also follow trends and what they've seen
58:30online, which unfortunately these days
58:32is not it's supported by social media.
58:35So, you see your favorite influencer or
58:37your favorite
58:38um
58:39uh podcaster talking about a specific
58:42stock or or a coin. And without doing
58:44your due diligence or even understanding
58:47that their financial standing is
58:49different from yours, you know, their
58:50status is different from yours, how much
58:52capital they have is different from
58:53yours. So, people chase a lot of these
58:56meme assets and meme names online, which
58:59is very dangerous. There's also
59:00overconfidence as well. When you plow in
59:03and it ties into the diversifying
59:05points. Where you tie in all of your
59:07capital into one thing because you are
59:09so bent on this working out that is in
59:13most cases, a mistake. Um
59:16And I think a big one is not thinking
59:18about the
59:21repercussions of taxation. You know, so
59:24people invest without thinking about the
59:26tax implications of their investments.
59:28So, what I say to individuals is
59:31always try to leverage whatever tax
59:34efficient platforms or schemes there are
59:37because I can tell you when you've made
59:39that million outside a tax efficient
59:41account, Rachel from accounting is going
59:43to be like, ah, thank you. 50 to 60% of
59:46that stays with us. So, just make sure
59:48you are really just capitalizing on what
59:50you have in front of you in terms of
59:52just ensuring that you can
59:55you know, cut your taxes within legal
59:58frameworks. Yeah.
59:59>> Yeah. Yeah, taxes important especially
1:00:02as um
1:00:03I think this episode I'm hoping this
1:00:05episode will come out before the budget.
1:00:08Mhm. There there is talks about tax, who
1:00:11they're going to take it from,
1:00:12pensioners, are they going to take it
1:00:13from us? I mean, the trend is I cuz I
1:00:16don't just look at this year. I'm
1:00:18looking at the trend. The trend is these
1:00:21guys want to tax more.
1:00:23Right? And they're looking at
1:00:27I can't I'm not going to speak for them
1:00:28cuz I'm not the government. I don't know
1:00:30what they plan to do.
1:00:32Um but I do say to people, this is why
1:00:36stocks and shares ISA Mhm. utilize it.
1:00:39>> Mhm. Mhm. Don't know there's no
1:00:40guarantee. Mhm.
1:00:42There's no guarantee it's going to be
1:00:44here in the future. Yeah.
1:00:46>> So, utilize it now while you have it.
1:00:48>> Mhm.
1:00:49Just in case. I'm not saying like, you
1:00:52know, sacrifice and make sure that, you
1:00:54know, live your life. I'm just saying
1:00:56also just keep an eye that
1:00:58this benefit that we've had might not be
1:01:01a benefit in the future. I don't know.
1:01:03Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely you're
1:01:04absolutely right. Um and the limit at
1:01:06the moment for ISAs is 20,000. Even if
1:01:09they don't
1:01:11completely sort of abolish it, who
1:01:13knows? It might come down to I I heard
1:01:15rumors about 4,000 pounds a year.
1:01:17>> hearing that. Yeah.
1:01:18>> think about it. You're being taxed when
1:01:19you earn your income, you're being taxed
1:01:21when you save, you're being taxed when
1:01:23you invest and make some money for
1:01:24yourself. You're being taxed across
1:01:26board. So, wherever you can help
1:01:29yourself with taxation, please go ahead
1:01:31and do it cuz, you know, it's it's your
1:01:33money. Yeah, exactly exactly. And it's
1:01:37honestly like these kind of thing and
1:01:39the 20,000's been 20,000 for time. They
1:01:43don't look like they're trying to
1:01:43increase it. So, this is what I'm
1:01:45saying, guys. Just kind of You know when
1:01:47the writing's on the wall. Again, it may
1:01:49not change, but we know when you've got
1:01:51a bit of a warning and it's like, just
1:01:53keep an eye on that.
1:01:55Yeah, anyway. If it happens, we've all
1:01:57been warned. It's not like we haven't
1:01:59been.
1:02:00So, I wanted to talk about the future of
1:02:01money investing, right? So, offline you
1:02:03mentioned that central banks are meant
1:02:04to have autonomy, but in the US, you've
1:02:07warned that the government is
1:02:08increasingly influencing them. Which was
1:02:11an interesting point when we were
1:02:12talking about that. If that continues,
1:02:14what does it mean for everyday savers
1:02:16and investors and how do they navigate
1:02:19that? Yeah, so that comment stems from
1:02:21the comments that the president of the
1:02:23United States made around or about the
1:02:27central bank chair, which
1:02:29in my opinion wasn't very helpful. So,
1:02:31central banks are meant to be
1:02:33independent institutions away from
1:02:36political influence. And so, and they do
1:02:39that because they make monetary policy
1:02:41around controlling inflation and just,
1:02:43you know, economic policies around that.
1:02:46So, when you have a government or
1:02:47president that comes out saying certain
1:02:49things in the media, as
1:02:52consumers of policy,
1:02:54we start to think, well, will future
1:02:56policy be independent or will it be
1:02:59bullied by political influences? So,
1:03:03that takes away credibility, which is,
1:03:05you know, one of the key things around
1:03:07central bank policies and the central
1:03:08bank itself. Yeah, there has to be
1:03:12confidence to to a certain degree of
1:03:14expectations when the central bank says,
1:03:17you know, we're thinking about doing
1:03:18this or doing that or
1:03:20you know, we're we're thinking about
1:03:21different policies. So, if you don't
1:03:23have that independence, it becomes a
1:03:25challenge for the markets going forward.
1:03:27Um because on one hand you have the
1:03:28fiscal side of things and the on the
1:03:31other hand you have the monetary side of
1:03:32things. So, there has to be that sort
1:03:34of, you know, autonomy to allow them to
1:03:36do what they need to do to get the
1:03:37economy where it needs to be. Yeah.
1:03:40>> And if we lack that autonomy what's what
1:03:43do you what can you see in the future?
1:03:45>> Yeah, there there could be many
1:03:46consequences. So, if you have a
1:03:47situation where um
1:03:50you have the government trying to keep
1:03:52interest rates very low, for example,
1:03:55even when they should be increased, um
1:03:57you have what we call entrenched
1:03:59inflation. So, you have inflation for a
1:04:01longer period of time because when
1:04:02interest rates are lower,
1:04:04people are less likely or less
1:04:06encouraged to save and so the money
1:04:08supply in the economy sort of balloons.
1:04:10So, there's there's more money chasing
1:04:11each item because interest rates are so
1:04:14low and that's what inflation is about,
1:04:15you know, you bid up the prices of
1:04:17assets. And so, when you have that
1:04:19entrenched inflation, that also feeds
1:04:22into markets. So, in equity markets, for
1:04:25example, you start to see assets being
1:04:27inflated. Not just equity markets across
1:04:29board, asset valuations start to go up,
1:04:32properties prices start to rise and as
1:04:34you know, whenever we have that bubble,
1:04:36the asset bubble, at some point it will
1:04:38burst and who pays for that? It's
1:04:40investors really. So,
1:04:42that in itself is is a challenge as
1:04:44well. Uh so, yeah, there there there's
1:04:46several consequences to this, but it it
1:04:49really is around inflation when it comes
1:04:51to a policy that for example, keeps
1:04:53interest rates so low for too long. So,
1:04:56you don't want that interference from
1:04:57the government. You need to allow the
1:04:59central banks, you know, manage monetary
1:05:01policy according to economic data and
1:05:03not pressure from governmental agencies
1:05:06and the government itself. Yeah. Yeah,
1:05:08>> [snorts]
1:05:08>> I
1:05:09yeah, I don't know too much about the
1:05:11US's political system. I'd admit as much
1:05:15as I understand the UK. I understand the
1:05:17UK a lot more.
1:05:18Um but I guess
1:05:21people could say with Trump, I guess you
1:05:23would say he does push things to the
1:05:25edge where he can he pushes as much as
1:05:27he can.
1:05:27>> Yes. And that's who he is. He would push
1:05:30the envelope as much as he can.
1:05:31>> That's one way to say it. Yes.
1:05:33>> You know.
1:05:33>> [laughter]
1:05:34>> He he he I what you could say about him
1:05:37is he's a disruptor. Mhm. He is a
1:05:40disruptor in the sense that he's not
1:05:42trying to do
1:05:43the conventional stuff. He's trying to
1:05:45do the unconventional stuff.
1:05:46>> Yes. You know, and um Yeah. Yeah, like
1:05:50you said, the markets don't like that.
1:05:52We like stability. We like the status
1:05:54quo. We know what's happening. We don't
1:05:56like things being, you know, messed up.
1:05:58So.
1:05:59>> and and an example of this is uh
1:06:03I think it was in April or May this year
1:06:05where you had
1:06:07uh Japan selling a huge amount of um US
1:06:11bonds in response to the policies around
1:06:16tariffs, you know. So, when you have
1:06:18that
1:06:19um uncertainty around what's going to
1:06:22happen in the future, you get investors
1:06:24very sort of angst and and jittery and
1:06:27and that's what causes the gyration and
1:06:29and volatility in the market sometimes.
1:06:31So,
1:06:31>> Yeah.
1:06:32just leaving the central banks to do
1:06:33what they need to do, I think, helps.
1:06:35Yeah. Yeah. So, you see market bubbles
1:06:37before. Do you think what's happening
1:06:39with AI has the same signs and if it
1:06:41does, how should long-term investors
1:06:43navigate it? Cuz I'm seeing a lot of
1:06:45commentary around, oh, we're in a market
1:06:47bubble. AI is faking this. AI is faking
1:06:49that. You know, everybody's calling for
1:06:51a crash, but I don't know, you know,
1:06:53I don't know if anybody's really been
1:06:54accurate because people calling about
1:06:56crash before, but they wasn't accurate.
1:06:58And I mean, if you say it long enough,
1:06:59you're going to be you know, correct at
1:07:01some point. Right? So, for people
1:07:04listening to this now,
1:07:06how do they navigate something like
1:07:08this? Let's say
1:07:10again, we can't know. Mhm. But, you
1:07:13know, it's not that a crash a crash
1:07:15always happens, right? It's the same as
1:07:17it's like both the cycle. Cycle happens,
1:07:19boom, bust. That's just the nature of
1:07:22life, right? So, how can people navigate
1:07:24this?
1:07:26So, I will start off by referring to,
1:07:29you know, answering your question around
1:07:30the bubble, the AI bubble that's going
1:07:32on right now. It's really exciting. It's
1:07:33very similar to the dot-com era. Uh and
1:07:37just to reference that, a lot of my
1:07:38clients, well, not a lot, but a few
1:07:39clients made a heap of wealth during
1:07:42that period and it's not that long ago.
1:07:43So, this season they were in is, of
1:07:47course, a wealth acquiring season for
1:07:50sure, no doubt. Um for those who bought
1:07:52some of these stocks or companies way
1:07:55before now, they they they really are
1:07:57enjoying the dividends around that. But
1:07:59um when I say dividends, I mean the
1:08:01returns around that. But in terms of the
1:08:03bubbles, I was reading an article a
1:08:05research article from The Economist
1:08:07around, I think, 2 weeks ago and it was
1:08:09talking about this particular subject,
1:08:11which is the AI bubble that we seem to
1:08:13be in now.
1:08:14And it referred to what would happen
1:08:17Sorry.
1:08:18What would happen the consequences of
1:08:19what would happen if we had a an AI
1:08:22bubble burst. And
1:08:25research and expectations are that it
1:08:28will wipe away if we have this bubble
1:08:30burst, it will wipe away 35 trillion
1:08:33dollars of global wealth.
1:08:3520% [snorts]
1:08:36of that or rather 20 trillion of that is
1:08:39allocated to the US because again,
1:08:42investments are very US heavy at the
1:08:44moment. So, when you look at ETFs that
1:08:46say they are globally invested, you'd
1:08:48find that 50 or 70% of that is tied to
1:08:51the US because, of course, these stocks
1:08:53are US centric and US heavy. So, 20
1:08:56trillion of that would be in the US,
1:08:59wiping away 20 trillion of wealth, which
1:09:01is around 70% of US GDP as of 2024.
1:09:06These are huge numbers and the rest of
1:09:08that, which is 15 trillion, would be a
1:09:10global wealth eradication. So, it is
1:09:13many folds bigger than anything we've
1:09:15seen before. Um whether or not it's
1:09:18going to happen, when it's going to
1:09:20happen, no one can tell. You're right,
1:09:22the writing is on the wall, but no one
1:09:23has predicted with
1:09:25accuracy or certainty that this is
1:09:27precisely when it will happen. Now, how
1:09:29do you navigate that? Well, I like AI
1:09:32and, you know, investing in that that
1:09:36space as much as the next person, but
1:09:38this is also why diversification is
1:09:40important and why I say to people that
1:09:43even though you might be in an ETF, you
1:09:45need to look at all mutual funds or, you
1:09:46know, um
1:09:48an index fund or whatever, you need to
1:09:50know precisely what the geographical
1:09:52breakdown is, the sector breakdown. Just
1:09:54look it's all there on the fact sheets
1:09:56of these funds. So, look into it to see
1:09:58where exactly is my money invested. It
1:10:01says it's a global ETF, but do I have
1:10:03So, in my personal portfolio, I might
1:10:05have um
1:10:06a high allocation to the US.
1:10:09And I'm thinking that my ETF is a
1:10:10diversifier, but then I find out it's
1:10:12not. We're investing in the same thing.
1:10:14So, you have a double exposure almost to
1:10:16the US or, you know, I'm just I'm not
1:10:18picking on the US. I'm just saying that
1:10:19this the research was around what would
1:10:22happen globally, but with particular
1:10:24attention to the US. So, one way to to
1:10:27navigate that is to again stay close to
1:10:29the news. Make sure you have diversified
1:10:32portfolios. Have some dry powder just in
1:10:35case you know, there is a dislocation in
1:10:38the market or a recession and you can
1:10:41sort of dip into
1:10:43your investments at a lower level or,
1:10:45you know, sort of
1:10:46if you will average cost your
1:10:48investments. So, that's one way to do it
1:10:49as well. And, you know, look into XUSD
1:10:53investments if that's possible. Yeah,
1:10:55what's XUSD? I know what that is for for
1:10:57the listeners.
1:10:57>> XUSD, I mean
1:10:59investments outside of
1:11:01America or outside of the US dollar. So,
1:11:04maybe, you know, GBP pound investments
1:11:07or euro investments or emerging markets
1:11:09are becoming very interesting as well.
1:11:11So, just make sure you have
1:11:12your exposure is a little bit
1:11:13diversified so it mitigates some of that
1:11:15risk. Another thing to to realize is
1:11:18that in the past when we've had
1:11:20recessions, the US dollar and gold are
1:11:22known as safe haven assets. So, you have
1:11:25what's called a flight to safety. Um so,
1:11:27a lot of investors because the US dollar
1:11:29in a time of recession is it tends to be
1:11:31quite strong. You would have investors
1:11:34flowing capital into the US dollar. But
1:11:36what have what's happening with
1:11:38decoupling from the US dollar, you know,
1:11:39people are sort of having these
1:11:40bilateral trade agreements with China.
1:11:44Am I allowed to say Russia? Yeah.
1:11:45>> You [laughter]
1:11:48know, other um countries around the
1:11:50world and they're trying to essentially
1:11:52deflate the the power that USD holds.
1:11:56We've seen that that's flight to safety
1:11:59phenomenon isn't really playing out as
1:12:00much as one would expect. Okay. So, I
1:12:04don't know. It just might be time to
1:12:06look outside
1:12:08the US and USD investments possibly.
1:12:11Yeah. I mean, that that's not to say
1:12:13that you don't still invest in US, but
1:12:15just be mindful. And I'm glad that you
1:12:18mentioned global cuz I've I've spoken a
1:12:20lot about global index funds on the
1:12:22podcast.
1:12:24And
1:12:25one of the things and actually I had a
1:12:27recent conversation that came out and
1:12:29that guest did mention that like, you
1:12:30know, even global index funds actually
1:12:33they are very heavily weighted to the
1:12:36US. So, actually it's not as diverse. If
1:12:40it's 70%, that's not diversity. 70%
1:12:44of something if 70% of your wealth is in
1:12:47something
1:12:48and that and I'm not trying to scare
1:12:50people by the way. So, please don't take
1:12:51this as a because I'm, you know,
1:12:53you know, I I like the US. So, don't
1:12:56take take this as fear. I think it's
1:12:57just being aware of it. That 70% is more
1:13:01than majority. It's like it's what
1:13:04triple double double the majority of
1:13:06what your wealth is in it. So, and a lot
1:13:09of people are very pro
1:13:13global like, you know, to the to the
1:13:15death type of type of thing. But then
1:13:17it's not like and I know it's the
1:13:19reasons why it's 70%. I won't go into
1:13:22into that on on the episode. Um but
1:13:25yeah, I think it's mindful to to to be
1:13:27aware of that. But those those those
1:13:28figures are staggering actually. That's
1:13:30staggering. I hope it doesn't happen. I
1:13:32I hope so too. I hope so too. It's good
1:13:34to be aware of it. You know, and and
1:13:36when you set your minds to think, "Okay,
1:13:38well, you know, this is a possibility."
1:13:40At least it doesn't come as an absolute
1:13:42shock to you that
1:13:43you know, some of your wealth has been
1:13:44wiped away because it was so
1:13:46concentrated in industries or sectors
1:13:48that were are going to be heavily
1:13:50affected. It's just it's just a way of
1:13:51mitigating risk and being forewarned so
1:13:54that at least you can sort of create a
1:13:56buffer cushion if it does happen.
1:13:58>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think so I've
1:14:02also had a conversation about gold and
1:14:05I have a conversation about crypto
1:14:07coming
1:14:08and I think
1:14:10potentially this is why you're seeing
1:14:12some of these movements to Yeah. I've
1:14:15been told gold
1:14:16and potentially crypto cuz it's like,
1:14:18okay, how do we have something that's
1:14:20outside of this? And talking about that,
1:14:22beyond AI, are there any other global
1:14:25trends, sectors or themes that you think
1:14:27are being ignored, but could quietly
1:14:29create the next wave of millionaires
1:14:30over the next decade? Uh that is a good
1:14:33question. So,
1:14:35>> [sighs and gasps]
1:14:36>> I wouldn't say that they are being
1:14:38ignored. I think that some of them are
1:14:40in their nascent or sort of infant um
1:14:43state and there is a lot of growth to
1:14:45come. So, things like
1:14:48uh wealth tech and biotech, I would say
1:14:50is very interesting now.
1:14:52Um especially with the infusion of AI
1:14:54and technology going forward. And with
1:14:56what we saw during the pandemic where
1:14:58again, am I allowed to say pandemic? But
1:15:00what we saw during the pandemic where
1:15:01you, you know, we just needed a lot of
1:15:04infrastructure around health care. With
1:15:06an aging population, the need is there.
1:15:09So, I think we'll see a lot in that
1:15:11space. Uh in terms of
1:15:13autonomous mobility as well and drones,
1:15:16you know, so Tesla and the rest of them
1:15:18are looking to driverless cars which are
1:15:21increasingly becoming commercial.
1:15:22There's something in that space to look
1:15:24out for as well. Um cybersecurity, the
1:15:27UK government is hell-bent on having
1:15:29everyone have a digital ID or whatever.
1:15:31So, a lot of our information is going to
1:15:34the cloud. It's going online. So, there
1:15:35has to be infrastructure around
1:15:37protecting that as well. And I think in
1:15:39some economies around the world, maybe
1:15:41emerging economies, you might have
1:15:42agritech becoming a big thing as well.
1:15:45And it's it is becoming a big thing and
1:15:46rightfully so. So, I think these are
1:15:48sort of the pockets I'd say
1:15:50would would see a lot more interest
1:15:52going forward alongside AI. Mhm. Yeah,
1:15:56are there any that you like that you're
1:15:58ooh, I interest I know I'm not trying to
1:16:00get you to cuz we know it's not
1:16:01financial advice. I mean, I'm not saying
1:16:04it so that people copy it again. People
1:16:06this not about copy. It's more like I'm
1:16:08saying when I say like, that doesn't
1:16:10mean you're invested, but like ones that
1:16:12you are like, ooh, this is an
1:16:13interesting insight. I'll I'll say one
1:16:16one that I'm looking at. I don't think
1:16:18I've ever said this.
1:16:19This is a strange one. So, I've
1:16:22been doing my always do my research on
1:16:24things and
1:16:27the way I am I'm quite a futuristic
1:16:29person. So, I like to think in
1:16:32I don't want to call myself a visionary
1:16:33cuz that just sounds like I'm up there.
1:16:35>> Yeah, yeah.
1:16:36>> [laughter]
1:16:37>> I don't do that. I don't I don't do
1:16:38that. But like I do like to think of the
1:16:40future a lot. So, like I was in into
1:16:42nuclear before a lot of people were were
1:16:45into it. The next thing that I'm looking
1:16:47at or I've I just do a lot of research
1:16:49and just try to understand trends and
1:16:51things that are doing. Solar's out of
1:16:53play, but I don't know why because we
1:16:54need it. So, that's people's problems.
1:16:57>> [laughter]
1:16:58>> So, for me I'm thinking about how do we
1:16:59solve
1:17:01our problems, human problems cuz that's
1:17:02what I've been taught in terms of
1:17:04investing. When you invest, companies
1:17:05solve human problems.
1:17:06>> That's interesting. So, I think defense
1:17:08like you said, if you look at what's
1:17:10going on, in fact it's it's one I should
1:17:11have mentioned, but it's not new. It's
1:17:13just I think there will be increased
1:17:14investments into that space given what's
1:17:17going on around the world and, you know,
1:17:18not knowing where we stand. It changes
1:17:20from day to day. So, I think that a lot
1:17:22of governments around the world are
1:17:24starting to beef up their defense
1:17:25spending. As you mentioned as well,
1:17:27solar, there is
1:17:29more going into climate tech as well. As
1:17:32we see this energy transition into
1:17:34hydrogen,
1:17:35carbon, is it carbon targets? Whatever
1:17:38it's called.
1:17:39Um so, yeah, there is a lot that will go
1:17:41into that as well. So, I think these are
1:17:43a few interesting places that people can
1:17:46watch out for. I certainly am. I I
1:17:47haven't chosen the one specific um sort
1:17:50of sector that I'm sort of gung-ho about
1:17:52at the moment, but I think it's it's
1:17:54worth keeping an eye on these on these
1:17:56sectors for sure. Yeah. So, when you
1:17:58look at wealth creation patterns from
1:18:00the past, dot com, real estate, crypto,
1:18:03what do you notice about how early the
1:18:05winners got in?
1:18:07I think there is certainly a thing to be
1:18:10said for first mover advantage, which is
1:18:14what
1:18:15earlier investors or early adopters tend
1:18:18to enjoy.
1:18:19Um I think that those who have done
1:18:21well, so I mentioned I had a few clients
1:18:23who had made a lot of their wealth from
1:18:26the dot com era because they they they
1:18:28got in earlier. And the same thing can
1:18:30be said for crypto. Um I started looking
1:18:33at crypto in 2012.
1:18:35Um as early as that and I'll say this
1:18:38one story just to I don't like to talk
1:18:40about crypto cuz it's such a sort of hit
1:18:41and miss with a lot of people and, you
1:18:44know, I I I I try to be very careful
1:18:46with with what's said, but I was looking
1:18:47into crypto in 2012
1:18:50and there was a company called MT Gox, I
1:18:52think it's GOX. Um Yes.
1:18:55>> trading crypto at that time. And funny
1:18:57thing is I had registered.
1:18:59>> Oh. All that was left was to send
1:19:01through my ID and my KYC, know your
1:19:04customer documentation.
1:19:07But for some reason, I just kept holding
1:19:09back.
1:19:10>> [laughter]
1:19:10>> I kept holding back. I don't know
1:19:12whether that was, you know, the Lord
1:19:13trying to help me out cuz he knew how I
1:19:16how I would [laughter] respond. What's
1:19:17going on right now? Um but I didn't send
1:19:20in my documents and it just sort of
1:19:21fizzled away. So, I still kept my eye on
1:19:23crypto over the years, and eventually
1:19:26got in, but
1:19:27um
1:19:28what happened with that company is that
1:19:30the early investors
1:19:33unfortunately have lost life-changing
1:19:36amounts because the the company went
1:19:37bust, and there's a I think there's
1:19:39still an ongoing law sorry a a legal
1:19:42case right now trying to reclaim some of
1:19:44that, but imagine if you had invested a
1:19:46thousand and maybe five thousand pounds
1:19:49in crypto when it was trading at eighty
1:19:51dollars per per coin, Bitcoin
1:19:54specifically Bitcoin.
1:19:56Um what would be looking at right now?
1:19:57That's that's a life-changing amount,
1:19:59and I know that for me personally I
1:20:00would have ended up in hospital.
1:20:02So, I think that um God had saved me
1:20:04from
1:20:05>> [laughter]
1:20:05>> from the consequences of that, but I
1:20:07think earlier early adopters or early
1:20:10investors tend to reap the benefits, and
1:20:12rightly so because they take on a lot of
1:20:14the risks while, you know, some of us
1:20:16stay on the sideline watching what's
1:20:17going on before we dip our toes in. So,
1:20:20you definitely there is something to be
1:20:21said for It's the same with sort of
1:20:23venture capital or angel angel investors
1:20:26who fund these um beta stage companies
1:20:30or, you know, companies that haven't
1:20:31come to market yet or, you know, they
1:20:33they just help them grow essentially.
1:20:34They're taking on a lot of the risk, and
1:20:35that's why
1:20:37you know, private equity venture capital
1:20:38tends to be quite lucrative because
1:20:40you've taken the risk. So, yeah, there's
1:20:42um there's there's a benefits to being
1:20:44being a first mover. Definitely
1:20:46benefits, definitely benefits, but don't
1:20:48try to be too gungho at the time
1:20:50[laughter] because there's also, you
1:20:51know, the risk of losing money as well.
1:20:53Oh, yes.
1:20:54>> So, if you were on a path to financial
1:20:56freedom again, what would you do
1:20:57differently?
1:20:59Oh, [sighs]
1:21:00at all um
1:21:04I think that
1:21:06because I was very committed and, you
1:21:10know, it was my life for a very long
1:21:13time, there isn't so much I'd do
1:21:15differently, but there are asset classes
1:21:18that I think I would have allocated more
1:21:20capital to, for example.
1:21:23Um I would have especially in my
1:21:25twenties, I would have
1:21:27been a little bit less uptight about
1:21:29life cuz I was just so like uptight
1:21:31about investing, and I just wanted to
1:21:32hit my numbers every year. I think I'll
1:21:34calm down a little bit and just enjoy my
1:21:36twenties, but that was a mistake. Um and
1:21:38I think also in terms of the journey
1:21:41itself, I would have definitely owned
1:21:43less possessions over the years because
1:21:46my expenses
1:21:47really ate into my capital initially. Um
1:21:52so, all of that money that went on
1:21:55things that of of little value, I would
1:21:58have curbed my spending a lot earlier
1:22:00and followed my mother's instructions a
1:22:02lot earlier than I did.
1:22:03>> [laughter]
1:22:04>> Maybe moms know best. Yeah, I'll be in a
1:22:06different position right now, but yeah,
1:22:08those are the things I would do
1:22:10differently. Just, you know, keep
1:22:13just stay on top of the news. I'm not
1:22:15saying be an expert, but just know
1:22:17what's going on. If you're a single
1:22:19stock picker, which is, you know, itself
1:22:21it it comes with a lot of risk, just
1:22:22keep an eye on the companies you're
1:22:23invested in. Just know what's going on
1:22:25generally. Interest rates going higher,
1:22:27lower, what that means for your assets
1:22:29and your investments, inflation, what
1:22:31that means for your assets investments,
1:22:33policy changes, you know, taxation, all
1:22:37of those things I would have I would I
1:22:39did pay attention to them, but I would
1:22:40pay attention to them even more if I was
1:22:43doing this all over again. Yeah.
1:22:45Appreciate it. Thank you so much for
1:22:47like, you know, your time today, Jumoke,
1:22:49and for you know, sharing your story on
1:22:50how you achieve financial freedom, and
1:22:53just really like all the tips around,
1:22:55you know, getting to become a or being a
1:22:57better investor, and just, you know, how
1:22:59to be diversified across the spectrum.
1:23:01Really really appreciate like all the
1:23:02tips. And for what you're doing as well
1:23:04in the community, I think it's it's
1:23:05great. Keep it going. I think it's very
1:23:07valuable information, and it's it really
1:23:10does help people, you know, at the end
1:23:11of the day this does really help people
1:23:13think about their own journeys because,
1:23:15as we all know, this is not something
1:23:16that we get taught in, you know,
1:23:18schools. We don't get taught it at all,
1:23:20right? It's something unfortunately you
1:23:22kind of have to just figure out
1:23:23yourself, and then
1:23:25you know, I always say I wish I had
1:23:28somebody I could have watched or
1:23:29listened to when I started cuz my
1:23:31journey would have been so much When I
1:23:33wanted to like move from saving to doing
1:23:36other things, I had to Google, and
1:23:39everything it was so it was like a
1:23:40minefield. There's no videos talking
1:23:41about nobody was talking about, "Okay,
1:23:43this is the next step, or you do this,
1:23:45or you can do property investing, you
1:23:46can do stock." No, I had to just figure
1:23:48out everything by myself. So, it was it
1:23:50was quite a challenge. So, you know,
1:23:51what you're doing is is so amazing, and
1:23:53just yeah, please do keep it up. Uh
1:23:55where can people find you if they want
1:23:57to connect with you?
1:23:58>> So, I'm not on social media actually,
1:24:00but um you can find me on on YouTube at
1:24:03Jumoke me. So, it's j u m o k e space m
1:24:07i. That's my channel. Amazing. Like I
1:24:10said, um it was great having this
1:24:12conversation with you, and you know, I
1:24:13know this is your first podcast, so you
1:24:15know,
1:24:16thank you for, you know, blessing us
1:24:17with this I would call it an exclusive.
1:24:19Thank you for blessing us
1:24:21for exclusive. Yeah, yeah.
1:24:23You're really appreciate you. Do you
1:24:25have any final words for watchers and
1:24:26listeners? Um I do. So, I think, you
1:24:30know, like I said before, there are a
1:24:32lot of personal finance gurus and and
1:24:35channels out there and all of that, and
1:24:37you know, while we chase financial
1:24:39freedom, we're chasing money, we're
1:24:40chasing
1:24:42you know, self-actualization,
1:24:44I think it's really important as well to
1:24:46look after ourselves, look after your
1:24:48health, your mental well-being, and look
1:24:50after your peace because as you're
1:24:53chasing all of this, if you're not here
1:24:55to enjoy it, what on earth is the point?
1:24:57So, it's really important to look after
1:24:59yourself. So, that's one thing that I
1:25:01myself have taken um better look at and
1:25:05into consideration as I've gotten older,
1:25:07but another thing I'd like to say is
1:25:09that there are things in life you will
1:25:11have to do afraid. Investing
1:25:13unfortunately is one of those, but don't
1:25:16let it stop you because therein lies
1:25:18opportunity to really make a
1:25:20life-changing um
1:25:22decision for yourself. Okay. Yeah. Thank
1:25:24you. Thank you so much, Jumoke. Thank
1:25:26you. Really appreciate you for being on
1:25:27the podcast. Thank you for tuning in. If
1:25:29you enjoyed this episode, share your
1:25:30favorite part in the comments, tap the
1:25:32like button, and subscribe to the
1:25:33channel. Your support is really
1:25:35appreciated. We'll keep working hard to
1:25:37bring you more valuable conversations.

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