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‘Everything you’re told is a lie’ | Melanie Phillips on the West Bank ‘settlers’ — Transcript

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0:03Just firstly on on the settlements on
0:06the disputed territories, you've written
0:08some brilliant stuff recently about that
0:10part of the world. Um
0:13and I just think it's really worth
0:14dispelling some of the myths. I'd like
0:16to ask you about that because the image
0:17we have of the settlements is actually
0:19quite extraordinary. They The people who
0:22live there are seen as the scum of the
0:24earth. The way they're talked about in
0:26the media and certainly on the left,
0:28they are seen almost as subhuman. I
0:31mean, the discussion is genuinely
0:33extraordinary and it feels almost
0:36neo-colonial, you know, this kind of
0:38imperious Westerners looking down their
0:40noses at these savages who live on
0:42hilltops in in in disputed territories.
0:46Um and of course, we hear about settler
0:47violence and so on.
0:49What's the truth about what's happening
0:52in the West Bank right now? Is I mean,
0:54presumably it's very different to how
0:55it's been presented to us in the media.
0:57>> Uh well, the first thing to say is a
0:59caveat. Uh I don't think anybody who
1:01doesn't live there can really say uh
1:04correctly precisely what's going on.
1:07There is so much misreporting going on.
1:10Um and I don't live there and I, you
1:12know,
1:14I'm relying on what people are telling
1:16me uh who do live there
1:18uh and what people who know people who
1:20live there are telling me and what I'm
1:22reading
1:23uh and what I'm reading is accounts by
1:25people who live there, which you just
1:27don't see anywhere in Britain in the
1:29British media. Uh so, with that caveat,
1:32I would say that the thing has become uh
1:35it's another genocide libel. Uh as the
1:38genocide libel, you know, has I think
1:40been shown to be absolutely preposterous
1:43and grotesque and absolutely stupid. So,
1:46the settler violence libel has come
1:49forward. And this is a much more
1:50difficult thing to deal with because
1:52there is an element of truth in it. Um
1:55there are uh
1:57uh uh, certain young men in particular,
2:00young Israeli Jews who are out of
2:03control, who are attacking, uh, Arab,
2:07uh, local Arabs, um, in these disputed
2:09territories, uh, in an unprovoked
2:12manner, are causing, uh, are causing
2:14arson, are causing criminal damage, are
2:16attacking Arabs as
2:19as people. And that is appalling, and
2:21one can certainly say that the
2:23government has not gotten on top of
2:24this. Now, there is a conspiracy theory
2:27that says, you know, the Netanyahu
2:29government is in hock to these
2:30extremists such as Itamar Ben-Gvir,
2:33who's actually in charge of the police,
2:35and consequently the police are dragging
2:37their feet. I think the situation is
2:39probably much more complicated. I'm
2:41hearing, uh, case after case in which
2:44the police stroke the IDF, the, uh, this
2:47Israeli army,
2:49um, are themselves, um, are going after
2:53these guys,
2:55um, but, you know, they they arrest
2:56them, uh, they take them to court, uh,
2:59the court lets them off with a rap over
3:01the knuckles,
3:02uh, because they're young, and off they
3:04go, uh, and do it all again. So, it's
3:06it's quite a com- that's quite a
3:08complicated situation when you're
3:09looking at those people who are the
3:10perpetrators. Now, let's unpick this
3:12further.
3:13Um,
3:15when we talk about settlers, we're
3:16talking about Israeli Jews who live in
3:19the disputed territories of Judea and
3:21Samaria called the West Bank, and parts
3:25of Jerusalem, including the old city,
3:27including the holiest place for Israel
3:30for Jews, which is Temple Mount, and
3:33including the Jewish Quarter.
3:35There are approximately half a million,
3:37roughly speaking, Israeli Jews living in
3:40Judea and Samaria, in the West Bank, and
3:43I
3:44I don't know, about 200,000 more,
3:47uh, living, uh, in the old city, in the,
3:50uh, in the Jewish Quarter,
3:52uh, in Jerusalem. So, we're talking
3:53altogether about 3/4 of a million people
3:57in these territories which are causing
3:59such concern, and we're talking about
4:01half a million
4:03When it comes to these delinquent
4:04youths, and they're mainly delinquent
4:06youths, and some of them don't even live
4:07in these territories, they come from
4:09elsewhere in Israel because they're they
4:11are delinquent, they're attracted to
4:12violence.
4:13We're talking about what's considered
4:16well, maybe the the the the numbers I've
4:17seen range from
4:19uh something like 70 to 95
4:23to
4:24uh two or 300.
4:26Out of a population of half a million,
4:28it's minor. To put it mildly, it is
4:31statistically insignificant. I'm not
4:34saying what they're doing is
4:35insignificant, I'm saying statistically
4:37it's insignificant. And the vast and
4:40overwhelming majority of Jews living in
4:43these areas are not only law-abiding
4:47decent upright people, they are some of
4:50the best and finest human beings you
4:53will find anywhere in any society. So,
4:57they are being libeled by this, as you
5:01say, all settlers now are regarded as
5:04scum of the earth. They are the finest
5:06people on the earth, some of the finest
5:08people on the earth.
5:10Now,
5:11let's go back to the actual
5:13incidents of violence. And again, it's a
5:16complicated picture, and you have to
5:19unpick it.
5:20Um there is some violence by these
5:23delinquent youths, but some of the
5:26violence that is uh for or first of all,
5:30I should say, uh there is some violence
5:32by these delinquent youths, but that is,
5:34I think, uh outnumbered by the number of
5:38incidents of violence by Arabs in these
5:40areas against Jewish residents. And
5:44some, if not many, of these incidents
5:47reported as settler violence is violence
5:49against the settlers, a violence against
5:52the Jewish residents.
5:54Um there have been a number of cases
5:56which I follow quite closely in which uh
5:58people have been a even
6:01uh settlers have been accused of, you
6:03know, uh going and beating up Arabs. And
6:06in fact, you what you find is in fact
6:09often it's videoed the Arabs beating up
6:13the the the Jewish resident who then
6:16fights back. And it's the fighting back
6:19that is recorded by hostile actors. Now,
6:22who are these hostile actors? They are
6:24mainly either Israeli far leftists who
6:28like people who are anti-American, hate
6:31Israel, hate Zionism, want Israel
6:33destroyed,
6:35in league with Western anti-Zionist,
6:38anti-Israel people. And you can see case
6:42after case where the violence is being
6:44provoked by these people to get the Jews
6:47to fight Arabs.
6:50And then that is decontextualized
6:53on video. What is not reported is the
6:56number of attacks on Israelis.
7:00Uh just was it yesterday? It seems a
7:02long time ago, I'm afraid. In Israel,
7:04there is so much happening that so awful
7:06that every day seems an eternity, quite
7:08honestly. But it was only yesterday that
7:10was
7:12Yom Kippur, holiest day of the Jewish
7:14year. And in preparation for Yom Kippur,
7:17very Orthodox men
7:20ritually purify themselves. And a
7:25resident of these territories, resident
7:27of Samaria,
7:29went to purify himself with some of his
7:31children in a in a in a natural spring.
7:35And the spring was attacked and he was
7:37murdered on the eve of Yom Kippur. Now,
7:42this has actually had unusually for any
7:45attack on a so-called settler, this is
7:49actually received some attention in this
7:52morning's newspapers.
7:54What hasn't received any attention is
7:56the fact that over the weekend, Friday,
7:59Saturday, I'm not sure which day, in the
8:01course of about 24 hours, 36 hours,
8:05there were at least seven attacks on
8:09Jewish residents.
8:10And this is never reported. Now, you
8:12talk about, you know,
8:14um
8:15the settler violence thing having caused
8:18people to regard the settlers as less
8:21than human. I'm afraid it's not the
8:23settler violence thing that has made the
8:26West regard them as less than human. I
8:28have tracked over many years the most
8:32hideous atrocities committed against
8:36Jews who live in these areas which have
8:39never been reported. There was a
8:43terrible massacre of an entire family,
8:47the Fogel family. I forget which year it
8:49was, it was a few years ago.
8:51Sleep in their beds.
8:54Uh the babies the the head of the baby
8:56was virtually
8:58decapitated.
9:00An act of wanton savagery, barbaric, for
9:04no other reason that they were Jews
9:06living in this area. Never reported. So,
9:12to sum up, it's a complicated picture.
9:14Uh there are many disputed stories about
9:18this.
9:19Britain is not being told anything like
9:23the situation. It's being told a
9:26libelous falsehood that the settlers are
9:30violent
9:32and
9:33in in living in illegal occupation.
9:37That's another aspect of this. People
9:39believe that the occupation of these
9:42areas is illegal. They believe that Jews
9:45building houses in these areas is
9:48illegal. This is a long discussion. We
9:50haven't got time for it, but in my view,
9:53and it's backed by a number of
9:54international lawyers,
9:56this is a lie, also. It is perfectly
9:59legal. People find this hard to believe
10:01because they're only told one half one
10:04part of this story, and everything
10:06they're told, in my view, is either a
10:08lie, a falsehood, a distortion,
10:12a warping, or an act of of gratuitous
10:16omission, which creates a false
10:19impression. So, it's a grievous as a a
10:22grievous
10:23defamation that's going on
10:25in this term settler violence.
10:27>> Uh
10:28that's such a useful overview and
10:30injection of a bit of reality. And I
10:32hope the people who need to hear it,
10:34hear it. Um I saw a video recently of
10:37two but well, a gang of white European
10:40activists in the disputed territories
10:42and they were harassing a young Jewish
10:45shepherd boy who was dark-skinned,
10:47clearly indigenous, um an indigenous
10:50Jew. And I watched that video and I
10:52thought, who are the white colonizers
10:53here? Is it this indigenous Jew Jewish
10:55lad trying to round up his goats? Or is
10:58it these whites who've come from Europe
10:59to harass him and push him and badger
11:01him and call him a genocider? I mean,
11:03it's pretty obvious who the who the real
11:05white colonizers are in that situation.
11:07Um
11:08I wanted to ask you about the um
11:11the logic of what people are the logic
11:14of the anti-settlement worldview. Cuz
11:16the thing that really
11:18shocks me, although I suppose it
11:19shouldn't shock me at this point, is
11:21that we hear we constantly hear Israel
11:24accused of ethnic cleansing.
11:26And in the next breath, some of these
11:28very same activists and thinkers and
11:30even, you know, relatively respectable
11:32people will essentially call for the
11:35expulsion of Jews from Judea. Um that
11:38the only example I see of ethnic
11:40cleansing is that demand, which is
11:42essentially what's being demanded when
11:43they say dismantle these settlements and
11:45get the hell out of here. I mean, that's
11:47pretty wicked thing for people to even
11:50hint at, never mind campaign for, don't
11:52you think?
11:52>> Absolutely. I mean, people hang their
11:55claim of ethnic cleansing on various
11:57things, amongst which is the fact that
12:01uh the Netanyahu government contains uh
12:04ministers who uh you know, have a have a
12:08religious belief uh that Jews uh should
12:11uh
12:12you know,
12:13live in these areas
12:15Um and some of them believe that Arabs
12:17should not.
12:18Um
12:19it does not follow that that is the
12:21policy of the Israeli government. It is
12:23not. Um so that's the first thing to
12:25say.
12:26People are extrapolating from one or two
12:28ministers to a government policy which
12:30is not true.
12:32Um the second thing to say is that
12:34ethnic cleansing is
12:37a particular uh
12:39thing which is um
12:42uh the the expulsion of people from a
12:47piece of territory on the basis that
12:49they are
12:50just
12:52not wanted.
12:53Now, even the people who are considered
12:56extremists
12:57um you know they're looking at
13:01uh
13:01Palestinian Arabs living in these
13:03territories who time and again are
13:07committing acts of terrible violence and
13:10murder of Jews and this has been going
13:13on for decades.
13:15Um and so consequently you know even
13:17from that from the point of view of
13:19those extremist Israeli politicians, the
13:22term ethnic cleansing isn't quite right.
13:25Um you may disapprove of what they're
13:27saying. You may think it's shocking. You
13:29may think it's wrong. You may think it's
13:30racist
13:31because you know you're you're basically
13:34trying to tar the woody with the same
13:36brush and so on but it's not ethnic
13:38cleansing. You can't ethnically cleanse
13:40people who are trying to murder you.
13:42Uh however
13:44more broadly it's a complete lie uh
13:48because the Israelis who are living in
13:51these territories are not trying to
13:54expel these Palestinian Arabs. They are
13:58trying to stop them from murdering them.
14:01Uh and from attacking them. These
14:03attacks are going on all the time and
14:06they're never written about. They are
14:08attacks through arson uh setting fire to
14:12farmers' fields. Uh this is going on
14:15every week, possibly every day.
14:18Um farm Jewish farmers find their herds,
14:22uh sheep, goats, are being stolen, and
14:26they tell the IDF, the Israel Defense
14:28Forces, and the IDF come in, and they
14:30find through their intelligence that the
14:32herd in question is in a particular Arab
14:35village. They typically go into the
14:38village, the IDF, to retrieve the herd,
14:41and they are then set upon by hundreds
14:44of Arabs. There is then a fight, and
14:47some Arabs get wounded and even killed.
14:50Uh Jewish farmers are finding
14:54goats that have been poisoned.
14:56Uh and they've been poisoned by Arabs.
14:59None of this is being reported. Now,
15:03uh to say that the attempts by Jews to
15:06retrieve their flocks, to stop the
15:08poisoning, to uh to stop Arabs from uh
15:11menacing themselves, to stop them from
15:13committing these attacks and committing
15:15murder, to call that ethnic cleansing is
15:19grotesque, and it's a kind of microcosm
15:23of the big libel that we've heard for
15:25the last 3 years, that Israel's
15:27overwhelmingly just war of self-defense
15:32against uh the Gaza Arabs, uh
15:35who are who
15:37against the Hamas, uh who are pledged to
15:40the genocidal eradication uh of Israel,
15:44that war is being has been
15:48uh portrayed overwhelmingly in the West
15:51as a war of aggression by Israel, as a
15:54war of genocide by Israel. This is not
15:58just grotesque, it is a defamation that
16:01is designed to make Israel into a pariah
16:06in order to delegitimize it, in order to
16:08pave the way for its destruction.
16:11Similarly, this whole claim of ethnic
16:15cleansing is a grotesque inversion of
16:19the truth designed to delegitimize
16:21Israel in order to destroy it. And as
16:24you correctly say, the only ethnic
16:27cleansing on the scene at the moment is
16:30the attempt by the British government
16:32and many others in the West to forcibly
16:36remove the Israeli Jews who are living
16:39in these territories on the basis that
16:43as it's claimed as Ed Miliband claimed
16:46these so-called settlers are stopping a
16:50Palestinian state. Now, just think about
16:53that for a moment. What on earth are
16:55they talking about?
16:57Israel contains something like 20% of
17:01Israeli citizens are Arabs, Arab
17:04Israelis. And there are many others,
17:08not just Muslims, there are Christian
17:10Arabs, there are Christians, there are
17:13Druze,
17:15there are other
17:17ethnic people, other ethnic groups in
17:20Israel, but 20% are Arab.
17:24Why can't there be 20% Jews in a future
17:27state of Palestine? The answer is that
17:30the Palestinian Arabs have said not one
17:34Jew will be in Palestine.
17:37So
17:38the ethnic cleansing is being required
17:42by the Palestinian Arabs, the moderate
17:45Palestinian Arabs, as a prerequisite
17:48[music] for their state. And the West's
17:51so-called liberals are going along with
17:54it. They are colluding in a prospective
17:57ethnic cleansing of Jews from a future
18:00state of Palestine.
18:06>> [music]

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