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Everything's Awesome and Camille Paglia is Unhappy! — Transcript

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0:00and these feminists cornered me with my
0:02back against the wall practically
0:03spitting in my face and said art art
0:06nothing that demeans women can be art
0:09now how can you have any as a as a
0:12student of art history how can anyone
0:13have any dialogue with people who have
0:14such a what is that that is the that is
0:16the Nazi and stalinist view of art okay
0:19where where art is subordinate to to a
0:20preat political
0:22[Music]
0:27agenda hi I'm Nick leesie with reason TV
0:29and today we're talking with Camille Pia
0:31she's a cultural critic an art critic a
0:34literature critic a teacher at
0:36University of the Arts in Philadelphia
0:37where we're filming uh she's best known
0:39as the author of sexual Persona a great
0:42book that came out in 1990 more recent
0:44work includes break blow Burns a reading
0:47of 43 of the world's best poems from
0:492005 and glittering images a journey
0:52through ART from Egypt to Star Wars in
0:542012 Camille thanks for talking to us
0:56well great to see you let's uh talk
0:59about the cont orary State or the state
1:01of contemporary feminism uh you have
1:03been at uh you know in a in a public
1:06life or in an intellectual life since
1:07the late 60s a proud feminist often
1:10reviled by other feminists uh Gloria
1:12steum I guess most famously said that uh
1:15you were an anti-feminist and then when
1:17you denied that that would be like she
1:19said a Nazi saying they're not
1:21anti-semitic you're mixing it up what is
1:24going on with the state of kind of
1:26professional feminism in this country it
1:28seems if if you look look at from say
1:30the early ' 70s or whatever Benchmark
1:32you want to look at things have gotten
1:34better for women men are less uptight
1:36about gender roles uh women are more in
1:39the workforce they get paid equally
1:41sexual assaults and sexual violence are
1:43down in so many ways things are going
1:45better than ever and yet from you know
1:48sites like Jezebel or feministing all
1:50you hear is that things have never been
1:52worse well um feminism has gone through
1:55many phases I obviously the the woman
1:57suffrage movement of the 19th century uh
2:00after women gained the right to to vote
2:01through the Constitutional amendment in
2:031920 and then um the movement revived in
2:06the late 1960s through uh Betty fan okay
2:09uh co-founding now in 1967 and now I I
2:13preceded all that I I I I'm on record
2:16and there's a letter in Newsweek I was
2:18in high school in 1963 where I called
2:21for equal rights you know for for
2:23American women and so on so I began
2:24thinking about gender and uh researching
2:27it I I love the generation of Amilia
2:29aart and all those emancipated women of
2:31the 20s and 30s um and so I because I
2:34had started my my process of thought
2:36about gender so much earlier I was out
2:37of sync with uh with the women's
2:39movement when it when it when it
2:41suddenly burst forth talk a little bit
2:43about what it was like to grow up I mean
2:44you were living in Upstate New York uh
2:47was your sexuality did you already know
2:50what your sexuality was but what was it
2:52like to be a woman what was it like to
2:53be a lesbian in 1963 well the 1950s were
2:56a highly conformist period uh where the
3:00the gender had repolarized after after
3:02really great gains it seems to be in the
3:0320s and 30s and the reason for that has
3:06one must be more sympathetic to the to
3:08the um you the situation of my parents'
3:11generation they had known nothing but
3:13depression and War throughout their
3:15entire lives my everyone returned from
3:17from the Army my father got out of you
3:19know he was a paratrooper got out of the
3:21army everyone married and I'm the baby
3:23boom okay you know part of that
3:25generation that was the result of that
3:27they they wanted normality they just
3:29want to live like like real people man
3:31and wife in a home I found the 1950s
3:33utterly suffocating I was I was a you
3:36know gender
3:37non-conforming entity right and I was
3:39signaling my my Rebellion by these
3:41transgender Halloween costumes they were
3:43absolutely unheard of I was like five
3:45six seven and eight my parents allowed
3:47me to do it because I was I was were you
3:49dressing a Roman soldier The Matador
3:51from Carmen uh my my best was Napoleon I
3:54was Hamlet from the classics Comics book
3:56and so on I absolutely no one was doing
3:58anything like this right so um and I'm
4:00I'm happy that this that this talk about
4:02sex medical sex changes surgical sex
4:05changes was not in the air because I
4:07would have become obsessed with that and
4:09assumed that that was my entire identity
4:11and problem so this is why I very
4:13concerned about the rush to to surgical
4:15interventions today uh so at any rate um
4:18you know by time by the time I had any
4:19consciousness of of being I mean I was
4:21attracted to men I I I dated men but I
4:23just fell in love with women always have
4:25okay so um yes there's absolutely no
4:27doubt I was on the Forefront of of of
4:29gay identification when when I arrived
4:31in graduate school at Yale 1968 to 72 I
4:34was the only openly gay person at the
4:36Yale graduate school and I didn't even
4:37have a sex life okay I I to me was a
4:39badge of of militants so on um and I was
4:42the only person doing a dissertation on
4:44a sexual topic it's hard to believe this
4:46now what was sexual person which the
4:49book which finally got published 1990
4:51after being rejected by seven Publishers
4:53and five agents I'm delighted I had the
4:56sponsorship of Harold Bloom that um
4:58pushed the the top through the English
5:00Department I I think possibly you know
5:02that they allowed me to do such a thing
5:03on sex was was actually kind of amazing
5:05well we'll come back to him because I
5:06think he's one of the villains of the
5:08current cultural yeah so but anyway my
5:11clashes with with other feminists began
5:13immediately okay because I for example
5:16there was like was 1970 I believe it was
5:19or 71 there was a a feminist conference
5:21at the Yale law school okay and um and
5:24major feminists were there including
5:26Rita May Brown who said to me you know
5:29the difference between you and me
5:30Camille is that you want to save the
5:32universities and I want to burn them
5:34down okay this is what okay so all I
5:36mean how how can you have dialogue with
5:37these people okay ler became a rich
5:39lesbian novelist and has a horse farm in
5:41Virginia all right and and then um I had
5:44a screaming fight okay with the New
5:46Haven women's Liberation rock band over
5:47over over the Rolling Stones because at
5:50that time Hard Rock was defined as
5:52sexist now this this argument seems so
5:54retrograde now although it's true right
5:56I mean the the the guitar is a fallace
5:58the brck God is dianus he's not he's not
6:01a woman but at at that time there were
6:03no women musicians that's why that's why
6:05Patty Smith was you was so radical when
6:07she you know peed her Frank Sinatra gar
6:09for maple thp on the front of horses um
6:11but Ian I we had this screaming fight
6:14about under my thumb okay the song and I
6:16said yes yes the lyrics under my thumb
6:18are sexist but this is song is a great
6:20song this is this is this is a work of
6:22art and so on and these feminists
6:24cornered me with my back against the
6:26wall practically spitting in my face and
6:27said art art nothing that demeans women
6:31can be art now how can you have any as a
6:34as a student of art history how can
6:36anyone have any dialogue with people who
6:37have such a what is that that is the
6:39that is the Nazi and stalinist view of
6:41art okay where where art is subordinate
6:43to to a preat political agenda okay next
6:46was the argument over hormones okay
6:48again screaming argument okay over
6:50hormones I was told by the founding
6:52members of the women's studies
6:54Department in the State University of
6:55New York at Albany that I had been
6:57brainwashed by male scientists to
6:59believe that hormones even existed much
7:01less had any role okay in the shaping of
7:03our identity and our character okay so I
7:05was banned from the women's movement
7:07from the start but I I kept going on my
7:09I I was Pro pornography Pro prostitution
7:12okay on libertarian grounds later there
7:14will be a word for this and so on you
7:16know for years finally my wing of
7:18feminism which had been silenced all
7:20that time we were silenced and
7:22ostracized by the steum wing okay The
7:24Establishment Wing partisans of the
7:26democratic party my party but
7:28nevertheless I don't feel that feminism
7:29should have been subordinated to any
7:31party okay all right finally we Rose
7:34okay in the '90s and the pro-ex wing of
7:36feminism won in the 90s thanks to madana
7:39having changed the culture okay stop for
7:41a second let's define what for you what
7:44is the essence of feminism is it using
7:46the lens of gender to explore every
7:49given issue or is it a set of political
7:51positions that can't change well my view
7:53okay I am an equal opportunity feminist
7:55okay I believe that all barriers to
7:57women's advance in the social and
7:59political realm must be removed however
8:02I do not feel that gender okay is is
8:05sufficient to explain all of human life
8:08okay this this this the gender myopia
8:11this gender monomania okay has become a
8:13disease it's become a substitute for a
8:15religion okay a whole Cosmic view that
8:18it is impossible okay that that feminist
8:21the feminist agenda can ever be the
8:25total explanation for human life this is
8:27our problem now okay is that is this
8:29this monomania the the identity politics
8:32of the 1970s so people see everything
8:34through the through the lens of race or
8:36gender or social class this is a Madness
8:38an absolute Madness and in fact it's a
8:40distortion of the 60s an absolute
8:42Distortion and and you're not saying
8:44that those things race class and gender
8:46which is kind of the Holy Trilogy or
8:47Holy Trinity of of contemporary cultural
8:50studies uh but all of those things are
8:52important and they all intersect in many
8:54ways but you're you're essentially
8:56arguing that it's not a none of these
8:58are none of these EXP things totally M
9:00that's right that's right these are
9:01techniques of social analysis I find
9:03very useful that's it's the way I teach
9:05it's the way I write and all these race
9:08class and gender absolutely okay so talk
9:11but the point is these are there Marxism
9:14okay as I argue in the introduction to
9:16my last book littering images is not
9:18sufficient as a metaphysical system for
9:20explaining the cosmos okay it it is very
9:23limited Marxism sees only Society but we
9:26are much B greater than that okay
9:27there's nature there's eternity there's
9:29you know there's questions of mortality
9:32which Catholic theology of the Middle
9:33Ages addressed far more profoundly than
9:35Marxism ever has and of course I mean
9:37one of the foundational text I guess is
9:39it second way feminism the dialectic of
9:41sex by schul myth Firestone literally
9:44just took a class out of the Marxist
9:46analysis and put in gender and then did
9:48the same thing and so that so you're
9:50saying I mean there's some power in
9:51those moves but they're limited yes
9:53that's right these are simply tools
9:54they're tools okay but but we should
9:56have we should have a large toolbox okay
9:58and is that the is that the lesbian you
10:01talking that you want a large to box no
10:04I it's actually ex Catholic okay I'm an
10:07atheist okay but but there's no doubt
10:09that I that I see things theologically
10:11and I was I was profoundly influenced by
10:13Hinduism and Buddhism when I was in
10:14college at this it's Harbor College
10:16Upstate in New York this these ideas
10:18were everywhere I feel that the 60s had
10:20a vision a large Cosmic perspective that
10:23was absolutely lost in this in this this
10:26degeneration okay in this splintering of
10:28the 197
10:30into identity politics uh what drove
10:33that was it um you know was it just that
10:35the revolution eats it eats its own or
10:37is it there was a shrinking economic pie
10:40so people started you know grabbing for
10:41whatever they could before the Titanic
10:43went down what what explains my my
10:45explanation that kind of the you know
10:47narrowing of a cosmic Vision into
10:49something more my explanation I I I
10:50actually wrote an entire essay okay
10:53about about the religious vision of the
10:56of the American 1960s this is a it's an
10:59you know Cults and Cosmic Consciousness
11:01and I feel okay had the real Visionary
11:03thinkers of my generation destroyed
11:05their brains on on drugs okay I I think
11:08LSD just AB leveled all the truly Talent
11:12generation this conversation is over
11:15okay but you know how no yeah so you
11:18think I mean it was who were who were
11:19the people who destroyed themselves on
11:21drugs uh my my classmates I people the I
11:24think the authentic IM imaginations the
11:27really innovative people of my
11:29generation the D the most daring okay of
11:32my of my generation took the drug now I
11:34for some reason okay felt that the LD
11:37was untested and I did not want to
11:39experiment with it and but I was but I
11:41was very interested in I was interested
11:42in all such Vision Quest you know things
11:45at the time I went up with my fellow
11:46students to see Timothy lir speak at
11:48Cornell I saw him and and and it made me
11:51uneasy there was he was the guru there
11:53was like such a such a crowd around him
11:55he was such a mag magnetic but his face
11:57was already twitching I I could see I I
11:58said I I said this is not going to end
12:00well and it did not okay so the when I
12:02got to graduate school in in 1968 okay I
12:05I can attest to the fact that no
12:08authentically radical student of the
12:101960s ever went to graduate school okay
12:13so all that were left with the time
12:14servers who who who who who
12:16parasitically battened on the
12:17achievements of the 60s okay for heav
12:19when I here's an example when I I was in
12:22um when I I was had applied to graduate
12:24schools I applied to six or seven
12:25graduate schools and um and you didn't
12:28get into the one you wanted so you went
12:30I well I I end I wanted to I made the
12:32choice for Yale because of the library I
12:36felt that I needed the LI T's research
12:38library buten but I also applied to
12:40Buffalo and I thought of going to
12:41Buffalo Leslie fedler was there Norman
12:43Holland was there okay so I could easily
12:45have gone to Buffalo at any rate okay I
12:47was confronted by the leader of the
12:49campus radicals on the quad okay said I
12:52heard you're going to
12:54Yale you don't do that I
12:57said in graduate school that's not where
12:59it's happening okay he he he did allow
13:02that if I were to go to grad school I
13:03should go to Buffalo okay that was the
13:04only thing he permitted okay and so on
13:05right but this these people okay the
13:07idea that that there were any tenur
13:10radicals is Roger Kimble's phrase this
13:12is this is not true there was not the
13:14only Todd you know G he's absolute only
13:17one okay and Todd gitlin who was the
13:19leader of students for Democratic
13:22Society so I mean there weren't tenure
13:24radicals there were tenure bureaucrats
13:25or apparat that's essal okay so now so
13:28so here's here's the thing okay any
13:30authentic leftist okay who had a job at
13:34a university in the 1970s or 80s or 90s
13:38should have been opposing the entire
13:41Evolution okay of the universities okay
13:44that is toward this this administrative
13:46bureaucracy that has totally robbed
13:48power from The Faculty okay the the
13:51total speciousness and fraud of academic
13:53leftism is proved by the passivity of
13:56these people in every Department of the
13:59to that power play that happened now my
14:02first job at Bennington we Rose okay
14:041976 we Rose The Faculty okay voted no
14:08confidence in the president and and to
14:09fight back against the board okay we we
14:11rejected the power of the board okay and
14:14I where is there ever been after that
14:16any such Uprising two uh well two
14:18questions one is that I you know I
14:20actually think you're right that
14:21universities travel on their faculty and
14:23the fac you know uh various Studies have
14:26shown that the there has not been a
14:27growth in the number of faculty
14:29certainly not of tenure track faculty
14:30but the big growth in employment in
14:32universities is an administrator
14:34absolutely and and whatnot salaries if
14:36you went to college up through about the
14:38mid 80s uh and and certainly from the
14:40late 60s through about the mid 80s there
14:42was no in Loco parentice uh you know
14:44there were fewer and fewer required
14:46courses it was a kind of temporary
14:47autonomous Zone then it started getting
14:49ratcheted down and now when you hear
14:51about the student experience it's about
14:53required courses and it's about um you
14:55know making people think certain things
14:57or not express certain things and it's
14:59so much of the focus of undergraduate
15:01education seems to be on kind of
15:03indoctrinating people into the proper
15:05ways of thinking right how does that
15:07play into this uh passivity on the part
15:09of the faculty I mean is it that the
15:11faculty wants to see that happen and so
15:13they're happy to have Bureau all I can
15:16say is that is once again you the the
15:18the people who went into teaching okay
15:20and who went to graduate school okay
15:22which are just followers they're sheep
15:24as far as I'm concerned okay let let me
15:26just say something about the in local
15:27parentis okay because when I arrived in
15:29college 1964 in local parentis was was
15:32operative I I was in a girl dorm we had
15:34a sign in at 11:00 at night the boys
15:36could run free they had panty raids we
15:38like threw water at them you know out
15:40the windows and so on we are the my
15:41generation of women rose up and said he
15:43said get out okay of of our you know of
15:46our private lives and the university
15:47said no uh the world is dangerous we
15:50must protect you against rape against
15:52attack all the you all those things and
15:54we said give us freedom give us freedom
15:56to risk rape that that is the true
15:58freedom isn't it true though that what
16:00they were trying to restrain was not
16:02rape but rather your sexual your sexual
16:04appetite uh well I think that they beli
16:07they were acting for the parents okay it
16:09was their obligation to protect and so
16:10now everything and that this is why I W
16:13I went so much against the grain of
16:14contemporary feminism when I started
16:16when I wrote about the date rape uh you
16:18know hysteria okay I was I I wrote this
16:21inflammatory piece in for news day 1991
16:24that that is that that still I'm still
16:26uh being persecuted about it like
16:28everywhere people are still angry about
16:29it and basically what I said was women
16:31free women must take personal
16:33responsibility for their own sex lives
16:35okay and they and they keep authority
16:37figures out of and to be clear in no way
16:40is this sanctioning sexual violence what
16:42you're talking about are cases where
16:44people
16:45retroactively reclassify something a
16:48regrettable sexual experience that they
16:50would rather have not consented to I'm
16:51talking about datee rape okay which
16:53which is what everyone is talking about
16:55right now okay about the so-called rape
16:57culture okay but that essay that wrote
16:59begins rape is an outrage that cannot be
17:01tolerated in any civilized society
17:03that's not what I'm talking about I'm
17:04talking about this new reclassification
17:07okay of people getting drunk going on a
17:09on a day going to fraternity houses and
17:11women not taking responsibility for
17:12their own behavior okay I said the gay
17:15men for thousands of years have been
17:17going out and having sex with strangers
17:18everywhere they know they can be beaten
17:20up they know they can be killed okay
17:21what what is this what women are like Oh
17:23we must be protected against even even
17:25our foolish choices okay it's up to men
17:27to what this is this is ridiculous this
17:29is an intrusion okay into okay the the
17:32civil liberties of young people to have
17:35this kind of this kind of vampiric
17:37parent figures in the administrators
17:39hovering over watching our watching
17:41supervising people's sex lives in Europe
17:43there's nothing like this okay people
17:44there's no idea that the University of
17:46Paris is concerned about the dating
17:48lives of the damn students they also
17:50they don't have sports teams and they
17:51don't have dorm exactly this Residential
17:54College thing okay this this vision of
17:55college as summer camp as Club Med
17:58that's this this is this is the
18:00F it's more re-education camp now right
18:03it's
18:04Camp hand let us give you the the
18:07incredible gym with excise equipment
18:09let's give you the Thousand choices in
18:10the cafeteria this has nothing to do
18:12with education anymore okay Mal
18:14education okay is is being committed
18:16from coast to coast in the United States
18:19talk a little bit about Madonna's effect
18:21on the culture which we're still feeling
18:22I mean one of the most interesting
18:23things and I I've talked with people
18:25about this like before and after Madonna
18:28every Hollywood movie I mean it's is and
18:30many popular novels many artistic novels
18:32have you know it's all about Virgin
18:34[ __ ] you know a woman can only be a
18:36virgin or a [ __ ] Madonna obviously
18:38played with that and in her wake it just
18:40seems like the Virgin wh complex which
18:43bedeviled you know Western Civilization
18:45for centuries it it doesn't really seem
18:48to matter anymore well Madonna's great
18:50period was 1983 to 1992 okay she
18:52absolutely changed the world there's AB
18:54there's no doubt about it and since then
18:56it's it's cring making you know when the
18:57current Madonna is I mean like it's
18:59embarrassing she I think you will agree
19:01that when she started faking the English
19:03accent Madonna the real Madonna died
19:05every bit as much as Elvis died when he
19:07went into the army but what what what
19:08Madonna did okay is is to allow young
19:11women okay to flirt with men to um to
19:15seduce men to control men okay now she
19:19she showed that you could be sexy but at
19:21the same time control the the the
19:23negotiations control you know the
19:24territory you know between male and
19:25female and that was it was really
19:27powerful okay very powerful and so now
19:30we're we're in a period I mean I this
19:31why I don't understand okay where we
19:33have some that where now you know the
19:35women on campus the the the whining
19:37there's institutionalized whining now
19:39okay about that that's what it's turn
19:40turned into well here clarify what's the
19:42difference between a legitimate gripe
19:45and and uh and whining well my point of
19:49view okay uh no College administration
19:52okay should be taking taking any
19:53interest whatever okay in the social
19:54lives of the students none okay if a
19:58crime is committed on campus it should
19:59always have been reported to the police
20:01I absolutely do not agree about any
20:03committees investigating any charge of
20:06sexual assault okay either either it's a
20:07real crime or it's not a real crime get
20:09the hell out okay and so on so so you
20:12get this the expansion of the campus
20:14bureaucracy okay with this absolutely
20:17stalinist okay oversight in micros and
20:20but the students have been raised with
20:22helicopter parents they want it the
20:24students of today okay are they they're
20:26they're utterly unformed okay not
20:28necessarily my school art school I'm
20:29talking about the the the elite schools
20:31so it's those kids over at that other
20:33school it's the grade grubbers it's the
20:35grade grubbers the bright overachievers
20:38I'm not at that kind of school okay I
20:40I'm at an art a school of arts and
20:41communication okay where where people
20:43already have a vocational Trends okay to
20:45be admitted here you have to already
20:48have a vocational aptitude okay but I'm
20:51talking about the you know the the ivy
20:52leing now I encountered these graduates
20:54okay of Harvard Yale University of
20:56Pennsylvania and princet I encounter
20:57them in the media okay okay and I people
21:00in their 30s now some of them okay their
21:02minds are like jello they know nothing
21:04they've not been trained in history okay
21:06they have absolutely no structure to
21:07their minds their emotions are unfixed
21:10okay so the vanality of contemporary
21:13cultural criticism okay of academ okay
21:16the the absolute collapse okay of any
21:18kind of of intellectual discourse in the
21:20US is the result of these colleges okay
21:23which should have been the FI the best
21:25okay have produced the finest minds and
21:28said having retracted into caretaking
21:31the whole thing is about approved social
21:33positions and in a in a kind of Misty
21:36love of humanity okay without any direct
21:38knowledge okay of his of history or
21:40economics or or or anthropology you know
21:43U maybe the university is not the place
21:46where that sort of stuff is happening
21:47anymore so for instance you have think
21:49tanks that do a lot of economic or
21:51policy work you have popular historians
21:53who are not academic you know are not
21:55academic I mean fiction and poetry even
21:57as there's been a rise of a kind of you
21:59know for decades now creative creative
22:01writing programs and whatnot nobody
22:03looks to the university to be cutting
22:05edge on you know on almost anything
22:07really so maybe it's just that you
22:09picked the wrong uh maybe you should
22:10have followed the campus radicals you
22:12know suggestion and got not gone into
22:14academ well I mean you know I in terms
22:16of as a writer of cultural criticism
22:19okay you know I I find that I'm happiest
22:21when I'm writing for let's say The
22:23British press you I write it quite a bit
22:24for the Sunday Times magazine in uh in
22:26London and I find that that um the
22:29general sense of cultural awareness okay
22:31I I can I can have an authentic
22:34discourse about ideas okay with
22:36International journalists okay from
22:38Brazil or Germany or Italy or Norway
22:40okay or Canada even okay somewhat okay
22:43they but they have a PC problem
22:45themselves uh but but so I I I can feel
22:49okay the vacuum okay and the and the
22:51nothingness okay of American cultural
22:53criticism at the present time is
22:55impossible and is that any journalist of
22:58today American journalist you cannot
22:59have any kind of a deep deep discussion
23:01of ideas is that just a kind of hyp
23:03exaggeration of the American disease
23:05which is that we've never and I mean
23:07this goes back to you know early
23:09American literat literary criticism that
23:11we're you know we're people who come
23:12from nowhere and we don't care about the
23:14past we're we're freed from the burdens
23:16of the past but we don't care about the
23:17P yes yes I I think this is true the the
23:20past is always present okay in Europe to
23:22the extent that you're in Berlin you can
23:23see the bullet marks still on the
23:25buildings from World War II and so on
23:27it's a terrible burden okay to have to
23:29have that there okay I I think Americans
23:31are far more ingenious and and open and
23:33and daring okay on the other hand you
23:36the nature of our politics too the way
23:38we have we we we we keep on having this
23:40this like the the two big parties with
23:42their big tent and their their their
23:44internal gradations you know of
23:46affiliation whereas people abroad okay
23:49have a have have a much more
23:50sophisticated idea about about your a
23:54person's specific intellectual and
23:55political positions they can identify
23:57you know because they'll have 13 parties
23:59you know conflicting in Parliament and
24:01so on so I think that's been a problem
24:03over here is that it's either either or
24:05okay you're either a liberal or
24:06conservative and and what you're you're
24:08like you're you're what you're combining
24:10things from both sides and then
24:11obviously you're a traitor against one
24:13it's like it's it's become like a
24:14substitute for religion whether you're a
24:15democrat or a republican over here okay
24:17and and um and there was a period where
24:19I I felt there was um as that you had
24:21the first conservative challenge coming
24:24from talk radio okay to in the early 90s
24:26to the um liberal hegemony in the in the
24:29mainstream media I thought that was a
24:30very exciting period because you
24:31starting to get the Clash of ideas but
24:33now you know now now the right itself
24:35has become a victim of its own
24:36insularity and I no longer feel that
24:38dialogue anymore you did not exist as
24:40you were talking about in the mid 60s so
24:41your subject your your cultural identity
24:43did not exist uh and now you are you
24:47know there's a million types of people
24:48that you could be you can be a a
24:50conservative lesbian you can be uh you
24:52know uh you can you can be uh out you
24:55know polyamorous you can be bisexual you
24:57can be this you can be yes there's been
24:59I mean would you agree that there's been
25:01a uh just a massive proliferation of of
25:04legitimate cultural identities that are
25:06out there um and is that a good thing or
25:08a bad thing and what's driving what's
25:11driving uh that move forward well at you
25:13know at first I was very excited about
25:15you know the ethnic identity movement
25:17because I I feel very Italian American
25:19uh and I've always been in revolt
25:21against the so the WASP style that
25:23dominated academ when I first elzie
25:25fedler himself you know was a victim of
25:26this Harold bloom was and I mean there
25:30wer weren't even any Jews hired in the
25:32Yale English Department till like the
25:33mid1 1950s and and were there was there
25:35were quotas and Jewish students admitted
25:37to Harvard I mean all all things like
25:39that uh but but you know over time okay
25:41what's what's happened I I think okay
25:43that that the gender identity has become
25:47uh really almost fascist okay and and
25:49it's it's a to me a very shrunken
25:51miniaturized way of of of perceiving
25:55your position in the world and and in
25:57the universe okay there was a time when
25:59when you know this these F these now
26:00these fine gradations of gender identity
26:03okay I'm I'm a male trans doing this
26:05with you know with that going move this
26:07this is a symptom of decadence I'm sorry
26:10as sexual person talks about this that
26:12was that was in fact the the inspiration
26:14of sexual personing was that uh my my
26:16overview of history and and and my in my
26:19noticing okay that in late phases you
26:22all of a sudden get a proliferation of
26:24homosexuality of sedom masochism okay of
26:27of gender game and impersonations and
26:29masks and so on so I I we're in a late
26:32phase we're in a late phase of so that
26:34the proliferation of cultural identities
26:36the proliferation of all sorts of
26:37possibilities is actually a sign that
26:39we're on the virge of collapse yes
26:41Western culture is in is in Decline
26:43there's absolutely there's absolutely no
26:44doubt about it okay in my in my view
26:46okay is looking at the history of Egypt
26:49of of Babylon okay you know of Rome of
26:52banum okay and so on ab and so what's
26:55happening is the busy everyone's so busy
26:57busy busy okay with themselves with the
26:59sistic you know narcissistic you know a
27:01sense of who they are in terms of of
27:03sexual orientation or or gender and and
27:05this intense gender Consciousness women
27:07Consciousness at the same time and
27:09meanwhile is that also racial
27:11Consciousness or ethnic Consciousness as
27:13well I think that
27:15um I think right now okay to me the real
27:18obsessions have to do with with gender
27:20orientation Al although I think there's
27:22been this flare up I I I voted for Obama
27:25okay but I I've been mly disappointed I
27:27I think we had hoped that he would
27:28inaugurate a period of racial Harmony
27:30and I think it's actually the situation
27:32has become uh even worse okay over the
27:34past over recent years with yeah it
27:36seems to be overt inflam you know
27:38inflammatory actions by the
27:40administration to uh to pit the races
27:42against each other in in the US so I I
27:44think there's a lot of damage that need
27:45needs to be healed um but I I I think I
27:48think most of the the problems is I I
27:51perceive them okay I mean as I as I can
27:53see them in my students and so on is
27:55that there is a new obsession okay with
27:57where you are on this on this wide
28:00gender Spectrum okay and in a view of
28:02gender that seems to me uh it seems to
28:05be unrealistic because it is so divorced
28:06from any kind of biological reference me
28:09I I do believe in biology I and I do
28:11believe in they C I say the first first
28:14paragraph of sexual person that that
28:16sexuality is an intricate intersection
28:18of Nature and culture but what's
28:20happened now is that the way the
28:21universities are teaching it's nothing
28:23but culture okay and and there's no
28:24nothing's from biology it's Madness it's
28:26a form of madness Okay because because
28:28women uh who who want to marry and have
28:30and have children okay are going to have
28:31to encounter their own hormonal
28:33realities at certain points okay but I
28:35mean so do you see your personal
28:37Liberation was that you know that helped
28:39Grease the skids for decadence or for
28:41the the collapse of Western Civilization
28:43I I have uh yes do you feel at all ENT
28:45about that I've defined myself as as as
28:47a decadent okay my my my one of my first
28:50influences was Oscar wild I stumbled on
28:52on a little book called The epigrams of
28:54Oscar wild in a secondhand bookstore in
28:55syracus New York and I was like 14 right
28:57and I was fascinated by his statement so
29:00I am a Wilding I'm saying and he he
29:02identifies himself as a as a kind of
29:04decadent you know that period of aeis
29:06been DEC and certainly he was towards
29:08the end of the great hegemony of of
29:11England as a world power as a cultural
29:13power that's true yes the decline of the
29:15Empire absolutely absolutely right so
29:17you know somebody like Leslie feedler uh
29:19who taught for years at at Buffalo and
29:21before that University of Montana he
29:23wrote about freaks he wrote about um you
29:27he did not seem to see as a as a sign of
29:29decadence though wasn't it kind of a
29:30delivery on you know the promise of of
29:33an America where you could be an
29:35individual and where you could kind of
29:37create new forms of existence and new
29:39forms of identity well to me feedler was
29:42one of the myth critics okay there's a
29:44whole View North of fry you know was was
29:46a huge influence on me uh and these the
29:49myth critics uh had this enormous view
29:52of of history and of culture and and
29:55it's partly influenced by Yung okay
29:57yung's
29:58I mean we're talking Arch types here of
30:01yes yes this kind of syncretism seeing
30:04all the religions of the world all the
30:05cultures of the world and so that broad
30:07Vision to me is the authentic
30:09multiculturalism okay Leslie feedler had
30:11it there's the formula okay he honored
30:14also the great writers okay someone he
30:16worked in chosa for say he worked in
30:18John Dunn okay right he didn't have any
30:20any any fetish about you know the dead
30:22white European Mal he he understood that
30:23that Vitality has switched over to
30:25America right but he but he was he was
30:28ious my own concerns have changed and
30:30they sent her in a place where you know
30:32on a topic which I think everybody has
30:34to worry about now which is the
30:35relationship between what we've come to
30:37call High culture mhm and popular
30:40culture and what I'm interested in doing
30:42is blowing up that distinction
30:45completely the people today have what
30:49what they pract this new historicism
30:50it's like it's it's such a I call it
30:52this yappy buffet style where you take a
30:54little here a little this a little this
30:56you juxtapose them you make cutesy marks
30:58and that's it okay there's no deep
31:00learning any longer okay well yeah let's
31:02talk about that and Jewish style the
31:04Jewish style of feedler or of Herold
31:06Bloom okay is deep erudition Well here
31:09here's something interesting the movie
31:11version of 50 Shades of Gray is out okay
31:14it has been accused and valorized for
31:16introduc you know mainstreaming BD
31:19BDSM uh it is always remarked upon as
31:22this is subl literary it's you know it
31:24you take Ein Rand and you dumb her down
31:26and you're still like a mile where El
31:29James says feedler in particular and
31:31this seems very distinct from somebody
31:32like Harold Bloom he was famous for
31:35talking about the effect that text had
31:38on audiences you know so that Gone With
31:40the Wind which was you know you know
31:42just dismissed by real critics as
31:44chicklet and you know it's not really
31:46literature it's certainly no Faulkner it
31:48tells us nothing about the south Etc and
31:50feder said no actually you need to look
31:52at a book that makes you cry every time
31:54you read it which is what he would say
31:56and that has a hold on millions of
31:58people meaningful how does that sare
32:00with I mean you know and obviously
32:02sexual Pera very much like A Book Like
32:04Love and Death in the American novel is
32:05this incredible work where you're you're
32:07grabbing from high and low you're
32:09talking about the ancient I mean it's an
32:10incredibly learned book how do you
32:12square great like high and low great but
32:15but the point is okay I call for
32:17standards okay but I but I but I take
32:19popular for me it's the great art but
32:21also popular culture but within those
32:24fields okay I say this is good this is
32:26not good okay so I I I I find I don't
32:29think that there's any difference okay
32:30for me in the feedler way okay I mean I
32:32I respond to both I always respond to
32:34the both okay great art okay and also
32:37Elizabeth Taylor okay so on at a time
32:39when she wasn't taken seriously and I I
32:41always follow my instincts and and and
32:44and and the Pleasure Principle what
32:45would be a way forward for colleges uh
32:48or other institutions to start you know
32:50kind of making a defense of the
32:52humanities I guess is what I'm asking
32:54how do you you know you you've oh that's
32:56hopeless it's it's absolutely hopeless
32:58the humanity destroyed themselves with
33:00that veering toward postmodernism and
33:01post structuralism it's over okay there
33:03they've been completely marginalized uh
33:06by by deconstruction by by you know by
33:08questioning and you know
33:10undermining and and throwing out the
33:12whole idea of the of the you know of the
33:14genius of the of the master of of great
33:16works of art um you know I I believe
33:18that there are great works of art I do
33:20not I do not believe okay that the
33:22cannon is produced by critics sitting in
33:25a room to to intensify their own power I
33:28believe the Canon is created by other
33:30artists okay you identify the cannon by
33:32who had the greatest influence on other
33:34artists over time okay that is that is
33:36the story but about the whole historical
33:38tradition the linear line which I
33:40believe in absolutely believe in in in
33:42terms of art history has been discarded
33:45okay the survey courses are being
33:46abandoned okay no the The Graduate
33:48students are not being trained even to
33:49think in large terms anymore they have
33:51no sense of History okay but but I find
33:53there's more sense of History okay in in
33:56in southern evangelic
33:58who who didn't even finish High School
34:00okay because they because their
34:01knowledge is of the world is based on
34:02the Bible right so they're thinking in
34:04terms of what happened 2,000 years ago
34:06what happened 2 200 years ago so you
34:08think it's impossible to uh revivify the
34:12the humanities I how is how is it going
34:15to happen well I'm asking you I mean
34:17you're making a pretty good case that
34:18it's I want parents to re I want parents
34:20to rebel and stop paying these these
34:22upen prices okay I I want the you know
34:25the government is like you know put all
34:26that loan money flush into the college
34:29and drove up the tuition obscenely Etc
34:31okay I want to return to vocational
34:33education okay right I me I I when when
34:35you get VOC with people now being
34:37trained for for real jobs where where
34:39then do people talk about ideas you're
34:41not going to get in uh forces the
34:44universities to pair down this
34:46ridiculously overinflated curriculum to
34:49what is necessary now what some I had a
34:51very wonderful experience when I was
34:53finishing sexual person living in New
34:55Haven in the early 1980s and I was
34:57teaching for um these just freshman
35:00courses you know of literature courses
35:01basic you know great books courses to um
35:04to uh night classes at the Sikorski
35:08helicopter Factory okay these are adults
35:11okay who are married with Children many
35:13some of them were middle-aged okay just
35:15getting additional credits right so
35:16these were these were night classes I
35:18had to have like all badges to get in on
35:19the security and so F fantastic okay all
35:22right this is what should be done
35:24okay people have to live people have to
35:27you know have to have some way of
35:29supporting themselves okay this is
35:30ridiculous like graduating kids with
35:32these crushing debts and no what are we
35:35doing we're releasing them into into
35:37what they're going to be working for
35:38McDonald's okay we we we should think in
35:41terms of careers we should think of how
35:42we are preparing people to to get jobs
35:44okay and not just getting jobs as as the
35:46ivy league does in in you know in
35:48finance okay or in law okay and you know
35:51you know the sort of the high high high
35:53TI you know High ticket you know
35:55professions and so on no okay I mean I
35:58right now it's expected that you go to
36:00college why okay my My Generation the
36:02Baby Boomers were the first where people
36:04were talking about that so college is is
36:06a right okay used to be very few people
36:08went to college my father was the first
36:09member of his family to go to college he
36:12did on the GI bill so okay and I'm in
36:14the direct beneficiary you know of it
36:17but this whole idea the abandonment of
36:19the Core Curriculum okay for this
36:21cafeteria
36:23style you know way of Education today
36:26where people are just piing out these
36:28like crazy name is that really true I
36:31mean in the sense of you know there's no
36:32question that every virtually every
36:34undergraduate it has a much more
36:36structured curriculum now they don't
36:37have a lot of options they're told you
36:39know uh you know if you if you talk to a
36:42typical English major they have many
36:44more required courses if you talk to for
36:46just general Ed requirements there are
36:48many more required courses than there
36:49were in the 70s honestly you you you
36:52you're able to graduate okay with with
36:53degrees in in literature without having
36:55read in you know some several the major
36:58you know authors I I just don't think
37:00that's true this the survey courses are
37:02are are gone okay there are very few
37:03places that have the survey courses any
37:05longer like we you have an art history
37:06course that went two semesters starting
37:08with with cave art and ending up with
37:10you know abstract modernism and so on
37:12those have been abandoned okay and these
37:14are some of the best courses that were
37:15ever offered in the American University
37:17with with this great vision of things
37:20okay moving chronologically over time
37:21showing influence and so on okay they've
37:23been abandoned talk a little bit about
37:25uh Salon I mean this is kind of
37:26fascinating you and uh you know we're 20
37:29years on from the beginning of Salon
37:31essentially um you know you you were
37:33writing for salon at a time when people
37:35like David Horowitz the you know the
37:37leftwing turned right winger was there I
37:39mean it was a much more kind of
37:41acumenical place I mean the idea was
37:43that people should be interesting now
37:45we've hardened into you know what might
37:47be called the politics of exclusion and
37:49exhaustion where it's like you're either
37:50a right-winger or you're a left Winger
37:52you're a Weekly Standard neocon or
37:54you're a salon you know PC Warrior right
37:57um what is driving that kind of um
38:00intensification of difference and of of
38:02failure you know an unwillingness to
38:04kind of Brook any sort of overlap
38:07between these categ well first of all I
38:08want to say about Salon is that is that
38:09Salon in this great period was you still
38:12had David Talbot the the main founder of
38:16um in charge okay and David Talbot's
38:18mind is very sophisticated in
38:20Cosmopolitan okay and he was he was
38:22interested in the full range of ideas he
38:25had tremendous pressions this was this
38:26was a great editor and at a certain
38:28point he retired from direct management
38:30of the magazine David Talbert's imprint
38:32on Salon gradually faded and became um
38:37and what what happened was uh today's
38:40Salon is sound it's like a Collegiate
38:43magazine to me okay the the the
38:45headlines are strident you know the um
38:49it's like knee-jerk
38:51predictable okay and I I think it's very
38:53very sad I think it's one of the most
38:54tragic declines in the history of of the
38:57Contemporary media okay is what's
38:59happened to
38:59Salon what do you think more broadly
39:01about kind of ideology you know there I
39:04mean in the 21st century line just in
39:06the 15 years uh that we've had does does
39:09libertarianism is that a kind of
39:11political or ideological position that
39:13actually can can give offer something
39:16good to the Future well it appears that
39:18ran Paul has been you know drawing
39:21excited kind of college crowds uh it'll
39:23be interesting to see whether um whether
39:26the Young people okay you know have the
39:30kind of old style uh sense of
39:33identification with democrat or
39:35republican I I have I have the sense
39:38it's not entirely comfortable sense okay
39:40that um you know that my students have
39:43slowly morphed away from even paying
39:46attention to politics over the past
39:48let's say 15 years and it's worried me
39:50because because the the the uh crises
39:53around the world are actually
39:55intensifying and how are you know how
39:58are they going to cope as a generation
40:00well and to go back to I mean you
40:01mentioned that you're a Democrat I
40:03assume your your parents were Democrats
40:05uh well but you have an intense brand
40:08loyalty my my my my grandfather's
40:11generation were Democrats my grandfather
40:12was a worked in the factory andat J shoe
40:14factory and they loved Roosevelt and so
40:17on okay and then um that generation my
40:20my parents generation it turned into
40:22kind of the um you know shifted you with
40:25during the disorders of the 1960s and
40:27there was shift toward the Republican in
40:30in the 70s and so on and I've always
40:32been a Democrat myself okay but you know
40:35and I voted for Obama I remain a
40:36registered Democrat but I voted green
40:38okay in the LA in the last for the
40:40second you know so I voted for a woman
40:42president already Jill Stein and so on
40:45um and I continue I continue to send
40:46money to the green party even though
40:47people might think okay they since I'm a
40:50skeptic about Glo global warming and so
40:52on that what am I doing but I I honestly
40:54still believe that the green party is
40:56closer to the vision of the 1960s that I
40:59remember than what the Democratic party
41:01has become okay what um you know when
41:03you're talking about students now is it
41:05a bad thing that they are you know
41:07they're like hey forget politics I mean
41:09because there was a huge element of the
41:1060s Revolution which was like you know
41:13what politics that's old men you know
41:15duking it out and trying to make you
41:17know trying to throw our bodies in front
41:18of each other right um is it a bad thing
41:21I mean because that's one of the the
41:22promises of libertarianism really is
41:24that we squeeze politics down to the
41:26small sphere possible so we can get on
41:29with more meaningful parts of our Lives
41:31well I'm I'm just concerned if you're
41:32not interested at all what in in the
41:34news or or you know in in political
41:37sparring and maneuverings and so on then
41:39how can you possibly have any influence
41:41on you know on the future I I I'm I'm
41:43worried that we're heading toward a kind
41:44of Big Brother um Empire okay where you
41:47where you have people you know the sort
41:49of career politicians at the top in in
41:51League with the with the Puppet Masters
41:54of the media okay the ability to you
41:56know to manage the news news the the the
41:59complete drop of of journalistic
42:01Standards now that the newspapers are
42:02like Vanishing I no young person reads a
42:05newspaper okay that's on the way out so
42:07without without staff you know of
42:09investigative reporters how are you ever
42:11going to be able to get you know
42:12in-depth stories that might take a year
42:14to to research you know so we're in a
42:15period now of instant and that the
42:17people who are reporting the news and
42:19writing the news don't even bother to
42:20say they'll just report what a
42:21government official says as if it's the
42:23truth you don't even have have to have
42:25you know a disclaimer like such as
42:27official claimed okay you just have
42:30total whatever you know from the media
42:33is acting as a total mouthpiece okay
42:36that and that bothered me during the
42:37runup to the Iraq War I was like the
42:38only person was who spoke out in salon
42:41at length Okay against the Iraq War
42:42everyone fell down on you know flat in
42:45front in front of what the government
42:46was saying how much of this is that your
42:48reading habits are attuned to a a
42:50previous eras uh so that you know you
42:52have groups like propublica you have the
42:55Marshall Foundation which is headed up
42:56by for New York Times editor uh you know
42:59that looks at sentencing reform and is
43:00doing long form criminal justice I mean
43:02is how much I mean because you know
43:05you're so relentlessly this is not
43:08you're saying what what you're saying
43:09has nothing to do whatever okay with the
43:11main with the main Forum okay of the
43:13news okay I'm constantly monitoring the
43:16main Forum okay of things you know I try
43:18to start with something that's that's in
43:20the news and and and I'm able to monitor
43:22how aware my the students are okay and
43:26I'm telling you over the last 15 years
43:28step by step by step okay there is it's
43:31getting worse and worse and worse I know
43:34if I were at Yale or you know or at
43:36Harvard I'm sure the pre-law students
43:38are constantly monitoring the news and
43:40they would know exactly what what I'm
43:41talking about okay but I'm and you would
43:43the Arts this is the Arts and
43:45communication this is the future of arts
43:46and communication here okay all right
43:48right that's the future of law so fin
43:51you know I because I'm I'm thinking of
43:53like during my tenure at reason and I
43:55started in '93 it's I I know that our
43:57venue you know our audience has grown
44:00our influence uh you know people at the
44:02Washington Post call us up people at NPR
44:04people you know so in that main Forum it
44:06seems that alternative news sources
44:08which do long form reporting you know
44:10they we're actually growing in terms of
44:12our influence not not necessarily in you
44:15know in every ISS you know on every
44:17issue and there is in many ways you know
44:19when you look at the Transformations and
44:21things like gay Mar or marriage equality
44:23pot
44:24legalization uh skepticism about war it
44:26seems like you know you're right
44:28certainly before the Iraq War there was
44:30nothing from the mainstream media but
44:32now people you know there seems to be a
44:34skepticism forming which has to be
44:35coming from somewhere okay all I can all
44:38I can say is all right you know when uh
44:41you know when Hillary and and her you
44:43know valky warriors uh like you know got
44:47got us into Libya I I would I didn't
44:49notice okay anything okay I was
44:51absolutely I wish I had in my salon
44:54column to condemn that okay because
44:56here's the end result okay the total
44:57destabilization of Libya okay so there
44:59wasn't a pleas there was nothing okay
45:02everyone everyone fell down flat in
45:03front of that one too I think what
45:05libertarianism needs as a strong
45:06candidate Rand Paul um is just not
45:09taking seriously okay if he really wants
45:11to run for president he's just not
45:12taking anything seriously the presidency
45:14is not is not just a post of power it
45:17also is symbolic okay and you have to
45:18look a certain way and you have to act a
45:20certain way you know whether it's a
45:22democrat or a republican what should a
45:24candidate look like whether it's male or
45:25female well you know I the huge impact
45:27on me was I was 13 okay when when John
45:30John F Kennedy was was running okay so I
45:32mean I I went out and campaign for him I
45:33went downtown I wave clackers and so on
45:36and and this you can't imagine what it
45:37was like coming out of the of the Sleepy
45:40Eisenhower years okay with May
45:42Eisenhower in the White House and so on
45:43we didn't we didn't know why Eisen Hower
45:45was like a great war hero we don't
45:46anything of that okay and this
45:48incredibly charismatic man okay who
45:50didn't accomplish nothing of course okay
45:52but but this whole ability to speak I
45:54mean when I when you look back you know
45:56I mean I for a while I've been
45:57disillusioned you know with JFK but when
45:59I've looked back it's some you know
46:01certain B documentaries that show him
46:02speaking on the road on you know when he
46:04was campaigning that was a smart guy in
46:07fact his management of press conferences
46:08was was was incredible course he he he
46:10created the genre but but wow he was
46:12like pinpoint and sharp and he just puts
46:14everyone else to shame with with their
46:15managed questions and their planned you
46:17know call list you know list of people
46:19etc etc okay so like a sense of Sprat
46:21Torah is is important what else goes
46:24into the perfect he was he had been in
46:25the military he had been in the Navy
46:27okay so the point is that's that's
46:28another thing that's a problem now okay
46:30with our with with with contemporary
46:32politics is that in America the whole
46:34generation of of of men that had
46:36experienced in the war the realies of
46:38war and had been abroad you know had
46:39experienced the horrors and so on it's
46:41going and so we have all these guys who
46:43are products of of Ivy League schools in
46:45this Harvard and Yale concentration of
46:46stuff it is this is not good okay
46:48whereas in England there's a tradition
46:50of course of the upper class including
46:51the royal family going to uniform okay
46:54so there's a sense of commitment okay
46:57class has a sense about war okay and and
47:00military history and and of sacrifice
47:02and so on now we have you know an entire
47:04you know country of the governing class
47:06has no we're going have this
47:08professional Army and so this you know
47:10so that the you know the sufferings and
47:12the losses okay you know are are being
47:15shut down onto others this is very
47:17dangerous to me because because war is
47:20your encounter with historical reality
47:22and with elemental realities of life and
47:23death okay so that to me is the
47:25explanation of the problem also with the
47:28with the left okay is that you that that
47:31because of the this transformation this
47:32slow change into this middle class
47:35culture that we inhabit now the
47:36shrinking of the industrial base okay
47:39the migration of of you know of
47:41factories overseas um what what is meant
47:43is that leftism has become totally
47:45armchair rhetoric okay with no direct
47:47contact with with real workingclass
47:49people okay now that is it a bad thing
47:51if we don't have working class as many
47:53working I think that's it gives me okay
47:55my you know my a sense of grounding
47:58because my in a factory my my my my
48:01grandfather my grand grandparents
48:02Generation all four all four
48:04Grandparents were born in Italy okay on
48:06the in in the countryside they were
48:07farmers okay all right my mother was
48:10born there too okay they came over here
48:12one grandfather worked in the shoe
48:13factory okay and I was like living in
48:15their
48:16home free riding you're free riding on
48:19you know my father was yeah I mean all
48:21of our parents were you know Factory
48:24this is the difference okay okay to me
48:26in in in the leftist okay that I know in
48:29academ they they not have this
48:31experience they have never had any
48:33direct experience of working-- class
48:34life most of them almost overwhelming
48:36but the leftists of the 60s did okay
48:39their parents okay like mine okay they
48:42had had experienced this social Mobility
48:44okay so my you know all of a sudden okay
48:46you know I was born my my my father was
48:48in college okay so and I lived in this
48:50factory town my my first home okay my
48:52grandfather came back from the factory
48:53every day was the the factor is
48:55dominated for Andy War also very similar
48:58thing in Pittsburgh okay and so on and
48:59so you get this populist feeling okay
49:02you know when you emerge from that and
49:04then my father became a high school
49:05teacher and eventually he became a
49:06college professor it was long afterwards
49:07I didn't have a television or you know
49:09or t or telephone until I was 12 okay
49:12for having sakes we didn't have any
49:13money okay so the point is this gives
49:15you reality gives you a sense of
49:17practicality I I'm like with I'm just
49:19one generation removed from the Farmland
49:21okay Etc all right and this is what's
49:23missing this this the middle class
49:25academic you know leftist okay you know
49:29all these people they know nothing
49:31actually okay about they have this
49:32distant sense of the working class very
49:35condescending okay about work from and
49:38they are somehow empowered they are are
49:41destined to help okay from from the
49:43point of view of you know of of an
49:44intrusion of State Authority okay this
49:46vast complex you know this this this
49:48octopus of State Authority that's going
49:50to help you know the poor people so does
49:52does something does a similar Dynamic
49:54work or how does that work on the
49:57or do or you're not that interested in
49:59it because you're coming out of a I I I
50:01feel there has definitely been a kind of
50:02a fossilization okay of uh of of
50:05authentic analysis the kind of jibing
50:07joking snide thing about Obama and so I
50:10mean I hated that about Bush and I hated
50:12about Obama okay this thing about this
50:13is the president okay he should be I
50:15don't care what errors they make and
50:17both of them have made huge errors they
50:19the you know the you know the position
50:21of President should be treated with some
50:22dignity this this degradation you know
50:24of prestige of of our of our of our you
50:27know institutions is like is very bad
50:29okay the cynicism the snarkiness wait
50:31and you're from the 1960s and you're
50:34you're upset at the you know people
50:36taking pot shots at institutions no no
50:38no I believe we should attack you attack
50:40you criticize you don't demean okay I I
50:43don't I don't think this no I mean I
50:45mean it fatigues me to read okay and I
50:48and I love to read the commenters
50:50because because I think it's a whole new
50:51genre now and and and the and the you
50:54know the jokes with Obama's name OB and
50:56this and that obami and or or Romney as
51:00mittens you know all this stuff coming
51:01that's coming from the you know from the
51:02from the Tea Party and so on who by the
51:04way I I respect the tea party I don't I
51:06don't I don't I don't demonize them uh
51:08but um no there there's a way of um just
51:11like snide way now I enjoy anti-hillary
51:13uh uh you know jibes I think that's a
51:16whole art form itself I collect those I
51:18collect those what what is it about is
51:20Hillary Clinton kind of the your worst
51:22nightmare uh as a woman she she's she's
51:25exactly my age okay I feel I know her
51:27completely okay she her her her you know
51:30she has some Scranton you know
51:32background and so on in fact our exent
51:35almost kind of kind of the same and so
51:36on I understand her completely okay all
51:38right so I I see all the you know the
51:40games and the and the you know the
51:41falsehoods and and so on so forth so i'
51:43I've enjoyed I've made an entire career
51:44practically out of in fact I wrote a
51:46what the cover story for the new
51:47Republic was what was it ice queen drag
51:49queen that was 1996 I think it was like
51:51way back there and so so what is it
51:52about Hillary that bothers she a fraud
51:54okay she explain how was she
51:57she it's like she can't can't have an
51:58opinion without pesting it and so on all
52:01right she's a liar okay she you know she
52:04um has this is not a strong candidate
52:07for president for our first woman
52:08president to me Diane Feinstein she
52:11presented herself no I don't care what
52:13what I don't care what okay I don't care
52:15what her views are okay what I'm saying
52:17is to to for the post of president who
52:20that's a commanderin-chief okay of the
52:22military it's got to be a woman okay who
52:24has a familiarity with military matters
52:26okay and also has gravitas yeah talk a
52:29little bit about the and Dian Feinstein
52:31you know I first became aware of her
52:33okay after those murders that occurred
52:35okay in City Hall she certainly never
52:37let you forget that she was there no but
52:39I have never forgotten because it was
52:41one of the Great Moments of woman took
52:43charge okay of an AB scene of absolute
52:44chaos okay in barbarous Murder okay all
52:47right and the whole and the whole
52:48government was like falling apart and
52:50she came to the media and gave the news
52:52okay and was steady and I said that's it
52:55okay that's the formula for the first
52:57woman president it's my duty to make
52:59this
53:00announcement both Mayor
53:02Moscone and supervisor Harvey
53:05Milk have been shot and killed Jesus
53:09Christ
53:13[Applause]
53:21the the
53:23suspect is supervisor Dan White how do
53:26you communicate how do you use the media
53:28to communicate okay so it's up to for a
53:30woman must communicate she's going to be
53:32a woman president she must communicate
53:34but strength know reserve and yet
53:36compassion okay what's that formula and
53:39I've been waiting and waiting and
53:40waiting for the formula the only one
53:41who's had it in America as far as I'm
53:43concerned was Dian Feinstein okay all
53:45right and and she didn't put herself
53:46forward for whatever reason okay as
53:48president but Hillary does not have it
53:49okay Hillary is a mess okay and and
53:52we're going to we're going to reward
53:53with the presidency a woman who is
53:55enabled okay you know the the the the
53:57depredations and and the and the
53:59exploitation of women okay by by that by
54:01that by that you know cornpone husband
54:04first and so on I mean it's the way
54:06feminism feminists made blind okay to to
54:09Hillary's record okay of of you know of
54:12trashing they were going to try to
54:14destroy Monica Lewinsky and so on I mean
54:16it's a scandal anyone who believes in
54:18sexual harassment guidelines okay should
54:20have seen that the disparity of power
54:22between Clinton and Monica Lewinsky was
54:24one of the most grotesque ever okay the
54:26history of of sex crime okay he's a sex
54:28criminal against so we're going to put
54:31that guy back in the White House okay
54:32she this Hillary is written on his
54:35coattails yeah she this is not a woman
54:37who has her own career made her own
54:39career she she a woman who failed the
54:41bar exam in Washington okay all right
54:43she couldn't the only reason she went to
54:45Arkansas okay and got a job in the Rose
54:47Law Firm was because her husband was you
54:49know let uh because I'm an optimistic
54:52person and this is an optimistic country
54:54can you say something uh what what are
54:56you excited about uh or optimistic about
55:00uh in this Twilight of the American
55:03Century what am I optimistic
55:05about um is there any reason for us to
55:09you know to be getting up other than to
55:11fight an existential battle against
55:13Darkness well we're so isolated here in
55:15the United States geographically you
55:16know um that I mean yeah we don't have
55:19to worry about the Japanese bombing us
55:21again but no I mean is what what's good
55:23is there anything good in your life no
55:25in our world no I no but I you know I I
55:28I enjoy living in America I would could
55:30only live in America okay because I feel
55:31that that you can you can you know
55:34accept an academ you you you can think
55:36whatever you want okay you know and and
55:38it I think it's still a very fertile
55:40area for an entrepreneurship I think you
55:43know people with with uh you know new
55:46ideas okay can come out of nowhere okay
55:48and and become millionaires overnight
55:50and some of our most interesting people
55:52uh successful people did not graduate
55:54from college and everyone from you it's
55:57Matt drudge didn't go to college and
55:58then ended up you know you know and so
56:01on uh like ruling the you know the world
56:03of media jobes I mean there there's so
56:05many examples of um so I I so what I I I
56:09just want you know I'm an educator okay
56:12so I want the reform of Education okay
56:13and I and I I just feel that there
56:15should be you know more vocational
56:16training at the high school level to
56:18offer jobs you know training in the
56:20trades okay for for um people in the
56:23inner city okay who like directing
56:25people to them toward College makes
56:27absolutely no sense considering the
56:28utter delution of the current College
56:29curriculum I hly what the point what the
56:31point of that is unless someone already
56:32is showing Talent OR in or interest in
56:35going into law or medicine or something
56:37like that um you know so I I'm
56:40interested in that okay um in um you
56:43know and but the public primary school
56:45education is an absolute hash right now
56:47absolute hash I can see what the
56:49students don't know when they arrive you
56:51know in college okay I mean the people
56:53who are teaching at Harvard and Yale are
56:54getting the products of private school
56:56and and all kinds of private tutoring
56:57and so on they're not they're they are
56:59not in tune with what's happening in the
57:00culture I believe I am because because
57:02the students who come to this Art School
57:04are from every possible social level
57:06okay they they're they're you know very
57:08talented workingclass you know Jazz
57:11musicians and dancers okay that I get in
57:13in in the classroom I have you know
57:14occasionally you know get there might be
57:16a student from a private school every
57:18like five years but mostly there there
57:20are good Suburban schools but there are
57:21you know less good so I know what they
57:23what they're getting in the you know in
57:24their in school and it's basically zero
57:26okay what they're getting is they're
57:28getting they're being taught don't bully
57:30okay all right you know like everyone
57:32okay negotiate and compromise and so on
57:34they have no they've never been taught
57:35geography they don't know World
57:37Geography okay so on um they they know
57:40nothing about history what okay so what
57:42are you optimistic about i i i i America
57:46is like is to to me okay full of fresh
57:49and you know creative energies okay so
57:51on that we're being saddled by an
57:53incompetent you know government that's
57:54sort of sapping you know sapping you
57:57know I mean I think the the less you
57:58think about the government maybe maybe
57:59maybe the maybe the better I no I I I
58:02still feel you know I I wouldn't live
58:03anywhere else but but the United States
58:05okay I you know I I Adore You nature I
58:09my my my current project by the way is
58:11about n Native American uh paleo Indian
58:15culture okay and that's where that's
58:17where I am in my mind right now okay and
58:18let's end with that what is so what are
58:21you working on I'm working on I'm I'm
58:23interested in okay the the actual Native
58:26American history that pred predates all
58:29this
58:30ideological you know uh Warfare over
58:33genocide and so on okay I'm talking
58:35about the period after as the glaciers
58:38withdrew from the United States okay the
58:39Paleo Indian period which is like you
58:41know 10,000 to
58:4313,000 BC I'm talk I'm talking about I'm
58:45very interested in the um the worldview
58:48the metaphysic the religion of of that
58:50period And I think I have some Instinct
58:52for it because of my interest in in
58:54history of of of religion okay I'm I'm
58:57very interested in religion as an
58:59atheist okay right I that's one one of
59:01one of my ambitions okay is to restore
59:04The Prestige of religion okay to um to
59:07secular humanism which I think has
59:08gotten very cynical and it's gotten less
59:11and less creative you know the less it
59:13thinks about religion all right well
59:14we'll leave it there thank you so much
59:17Camille Pa thank you Nick it has been a
59:19wonderful conversation for reason TV I'm
59:21Nick
59:25kesp
59:27h

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