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Eva Schloss | Cambridge Union — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:19good evening thank you all for coming
0:20this evening it's really amazing to see
0:23so many people at this event very very
0:26important event I think I'm born in
0:27Austria in the aftermath of the First
0:29World War our speaker this evening lived
0:31the childhood under the shadow of the
0:33Holocaust fleeing to Belgium and then to
0:35Amsterdam Eva lived in hiding until 1944
0:38at which point she was betrayed and
0:39eventually taken to auschwitz-birkenau
0:41concentration camp she was able to
0:43survive until the camp's liberation in
0:451945 at which point she returned to
0:47Amsterdam and then Britain where she met
0:49her late husband's fiche loss in 1986 an
0:53Anne Frank exhibition held in London she
0:55began to talk about her experiences and
0:57in her own words she never stopped since
0:59a time when fewer and fewer survivors
1:02are able to tell their story it's a true
1:03privilege Sandford with us in the units
1:06and I'd like to welcome Eva schloss to
1:07address the house this evening
1:30yeah yeah they are fantastic
1:39I think the way we'll do this evening if
1:41that's all right with you is um if you
1:42wouldn't mind for 15 minutes or so just
1:44giving an overview of your story if
1:46that's all right then I'll ask a few
1:47questions and then we'll open the
1:49questions up to the floor as well if
1:50that's all right thank you sure yes well
1:53I've heard you have just given a very
1:55very short impression of where I came
1:58from and what happened to me well as I
2:03say I was brought up in Vienna which was
2:05a beautiful city and we mixed Mis Jews
2:09and non-jews
2:09and it was idyllic but unfortunately as
2:13soon as Hitler marched in life change
2:16for Jewish people the next day we were
2:19already persecuted we were very very
2:22lucky that we were able to get out this
2:25was really the trouble at the time in
2:281938 when already relatively few but
2:34there was a less quite a few people from
2:36Germany have been persecuted that were
2:39able to leave Europe going to America
2:42England Australia Canada by 1938 when
2:47Austrian Jews wanted to emigrate it
2:49became very very difficult to find
2:52somewhere who where you're still able to
2:55escape but we were very lucky we were
2:59able to escape for us to Belgium and
3:01later to Amsterdam in Amsterdam we moved
3:05to a new area where some German refugees
3:09has settled and that is where I met Anna
3:12Frank
3:12we were both 11 years old and we played
3:17together we get to know each other but
3:19unfortunately hidden raided as well as
3:22well but 1940 practically the whole of
3:26Europe was already occupied by Hitler
3:29which was amazing
3:32well Amsterdam Holland Belgium France
3:37Scandinavia Denmark Norway
3:41and the Balkans all of us occupied by
3:45the German army and it did look as if
3:48Hitler was going to win Zika war when
3:52America came in the war in 1940 it
3:57looked as if perhaps as a real defeat
3:59Hitler but of course the Americans
4:01didn't really fight in Europe they had
4:03their own water fad in the Far East and
4:07in 1942 about 10,000 young people all of
4:13you which you have been joist would have
4:15fed the call-up notice to be deported to
4:18Germany to work in German factories the
4:21first Hitler killed the Jews cells over
4:24I should invite them to come back again
4:26so many many parents decided sir
4:29wouldn't censor up young people that was
4:32my brother who was 16 year old and Anna
4:35Frank's older sister Margot was 16 and
4:39many many of their friends and as well
4:4220 when 20 21 22 year-old those people
4:47never ever went to Germany they were
4:50sent to Mauthausen a terrible Austrian
4:53death camp and they were just thrown
4:55down from the cliffs the parents never
4:59ever heard anything from those children
5:02so my father decided we would go into
5:05hiding we were two years in hiding
5:08meaning never to go out never to go to
5:12school never see your family and the
5:16Germans knew not everybody had appeared
5:18to the call-up noticed and they were
5:21making house searches so in the nights
5:24and knocked on door everybody had to
5:27open that some walk in your own house
5:30search your home and trying to find Jews
5:34so we had in every place where we were
5:37hiding a hiding place within the hiding
5:40place the people from the resistance
5:44made false partitions sometimes even
5:47under floorboards so you can imagine
5:49even the nights were unbearable we were
5:53hiding for two year
5:54till 44 then we were betrayed by a Dutch
5:59nurse who was actually a double agent
6:02she pretended she was a member of the
6:05resistance but she really worked for the
6:08Nazis and all fours over there in two
6:12different hiding places that's a
6:14complicated story but anyway all four of
6:17us were betrayed and sent immediately to
6:20Auschwitz and we knew what our fate was
6:24you know I've never met anybody in
6:27Germany who said yes and know what was
6:30going on well that is a great great lie
6:33because all the death camps were next to
6:36big cities the Jewish neighbors of
6:39people know thank you
6:41to to his neighbors of people realized
6:46the family next door has been taken away
6:48never been seen again the camps were
6:53usually next to a big city where
6:55everyday trains went for his people the
6:59trains came back empty the smell of
7:03burning flesh was over many many miles
7:07and nevertheless nobody says they knew
7:11anything about it so in Auschwitz when
7:16we were sent we were of course separated
7:18men and women to different parts of the
7:20camps and never ever saw my brother
7:23again
7:24he just had 16 he was killed in
7:28Mauthausen was just before his 18th
7:32birthday I won't go too much about the
7:36life in a concentration camp
7:39she told us even as long as you live you
7:43are going to help be housed in this
7:45barrack with lies with very little food
7:50very terrible hard work from morning
7:53till evening service elections but once
7:58a week we had a shower to be deloused
8:00and very often you came out and just at
8:04Mangalam the camp doctor a proper
8:07medical man
8:08who decided who was going to die and who
8:12was going to live one time when we came
8:16out of such a shower 40 people from our
8:20Dutch transport including my mother was
8:24taken out to be killed she was just 40
8:30years old and I thought I will never
8:33ever see her again
8:35a miracle happened she was saved and in
8:40the winter of 1944 we very United
8:46a few miracles happened to me when I was
8:49just desperate I thought I'd lost my
8:51mother and it was winter I had frost
8:54belt that could hardly walk anymore
8:57and I was working and I was called out
9:02and I thought oh well now it's my turn
9:04to be killed and I went outside and just
9:08took my father till this day and I will
9:12never ever know how he was able to get
9:15permission how I was able to find more
9:18me I don't know but the terrible thing
9:22was said of course he asked where muti
9:26was his wife and had to tell them as it
9:29she was guest my father crumbled in
9:33front of my eyes and you know very often
9:37people ask you do you feel guilty that
9:39you have survived I said no I'm actually
9:42very pleased to have survived but they
9:45do feel guilty so they're told my father
9:47said my mother was dead
9:49because she wasn't but I didn't know and
9:55after the after the Germans realized the
10:00Russians we are approaching the empties
10:02of the camp and many many thousands of
10:06people marched into Germany and Poland
10:08and on Germany and Austria and after the
10:12war Scioscia called said des marches my
10:16brother and father we're on just as much
10:18as
10:19and after the war we got a notification
10:24from the Red Cross saying that both my
10:29father and brother perished in
10:30Mauthausen after the death march and
10:35several days before the American army
10:38came to liberate said camp well that was
10:42for me like a death sentence I couldn't
10:45get over the loss of my father and
10:47brother so I've got very very depressed
10:50after the war and you know I was
10:55actually more more miserable after the
10:59war after had seized new when news when
11:02I realized we will never ever be a
11:04family again then I was in the camp
11:07because in the hemp camp I had to use
11:10all my energy and all my strength and my
11:13belief said somehow a miracle will
11:17happen and I will get out and we will be
11:20again a family when this was shattered
11:22and would never ever happen I became
11:25really very very depressed and it was
11:28otto frank who has heard that his whole
11:31family had perished came to us and he
11:34told me you know i don't hate anybody
11:38because i was full of hate and i
11:43couldn't understand I said but you lost
11:46everybody how can you not hate he said
11:48well the people I hate I would hate
11:51don't know I hate them but you feel bad
11:54and that was true I felt really very
11:57very bad so but you know life has a lot
12:02to offer and I realized and that he said
12:06to me you are young you've got your
12:08whole life in front of you and when a
12:11finished school was going to be a
12:14photographer I came to England for a
12:16year and I met a young man in a boarding
12:20house who had come from Israel to study
12:23economics and we didn't tell each other
12:27who we were I said I was Dutch Switzer
12:30was endeavours
12:31les he said he was an Israeli which he
12:34wasn't he was a German Jewish refugee
12:37and nevertheless we liked each other
12:41and after six months he asked me to
12:43marry him
12:44and I said no thank you
12:51and he said why I said well you know
12:54I've got that we don't mother in
12:55Amsterdam and you can imagine I was very
12:58very close to her and that couldn't
13:01imagine I would just get married and
13:03leave her and then Otto Frank came over
13:06one day he kept a bit an eye on me and I
13:11told him sis young man has asked me to
13:14marry him but I said of course no
13:15because I will go back to Amsterdam and
13:18he got a bit embarrassed and then he
13:21said well your mother and me have fallen
13:24in love as well and once you get settled
13:27we like to get married and so I went
13:30back to this young man and cetera you
13:32can marry me now which we did we went to
13:37Amsterdam and got married
13:39and uttered my mother got married then
13:42elected next year and we were married
13:45for 62 years and you know we didn't
13:50really know each other but we took pause
13:53a gamble and it was okay and her and
13:56Otto and my mother were married for 27
13:59years and I must say I've never seen a
14:02happier marriage and just two and my
14:06mother was of course second mass of our
14:08children but Otto too was a wonderful
14:11grandfather so we had again a family and
14:14for 40 years I didn't speak about my
14:17experience not to my children not to not
14:21even to my husband it was too hard but
14:25in 1986 for the first time I spoke and
14:29it was a great relief and since then I
14:32have stopped so I wrote three books the
14:36first book Eva story the second book was
14:40about my Plaza called the promise I just
14:44tell another little story about that
14:45because he was so artistic and when he
14:50was 12 years old he asked me one night
14:53what will happen when we die I am afraid
14:57and well I think we all afraid a bit of
15:00dying
15:01but this twelve-year-old you usually
15:03don't talk about it but at said time you
15:06saw people disappearing you heard that I
15:09was single and I said well I don't know
15:12what will happen but let's ask our
15:14Father who has all their answers and he
15:19went to him in the morning and he said
15:21pop river will happen when I die and my
15:24father said well of course your body
15:26will integrate but if you have children
15:29you will live on in your children and
15:32then this 12 year old boy said but what
15:36if I die before I've any children and my
15:39father thought for a moment and he said
15:42well of course you will be gone but
15:48whatever you have done in your life even
15:50if it's a short life somebody will
15:52remember and you will not be forgotten
15:55and he had to accept that so I thought I
15:59keeps a promise no hands and my father
16:01and I wrote the book about hands about
16:04his short life but what he had achieved
16:06and then a few years ago I was asked to
16:11write another book called after
16:14Auschwitz which is not just after hours
16:16which you can't restart the story in the
16:18middle but it is a very all around book
16:23about my whole life and my experience
16:25ends my opinions about certain things in
16:29life so you can buy the book all on
16:32Amazon so so well this is now and now I
16:38think like if there were up to you to
16:41ask me more detailed questions just a
16:43thank you
16:44[Applause]
16:55thank you
16:57yes thank you thank you very much that
17:00was a very good bit brief detail of your
17:06story and everything else I think one of
17:08the first questions that I'd like to ask
17:10is that I'd see the moment where at the
17:12moment um the time is sort of changing
17:15when it comes to Holocaust education
17:17we're at a turning point where
17:18unfortunately fewer and fewer survivors
17:20are now able to tell their stories and
17:23and certainly when we're bringing up
17:25children the way we educate children
17:27about the Holocaust and how we do that
17:30is going to be very very different to
17:31what's happened in previous generations
17:33what do you think's important how do you
17:35think we can do it and what do you think
17:36is important about the way we educate
17:38our children and future generations and
17:40and how can we keep you know it it's how
17:43do we stop it from being lost which is
17:45in a way it's very difficult to do over
17:49the next centuries of that we do we try
17:50and well of course if we are not around
17:53anymore you won't be able to hear
17:55personal stories personally but of
17:59course with the modern technique so many
18:01many documentary mates our stories from
18:06survivors are recorded so you can listen
18:09to that which is still very very good
18:12but it's of course not quite the same
18:15and then as well there are hundreds of
18:18very very good interesting books about
18:21the story for for adults but as well for
18:24young people there as well some the
18:27quite a few films about Holocaust but
18:30some are not - it is a bad thing like
18:35the boy in the Striped Pyjamas it's a
18:37complete fantasy I think that's not a
18:40good book to read as an educational book
18:45life is beautiful another book we are
18:48also film which got actually many awards
18:51even from Israel but it's again
18:53completely fantasy but for instance The
18:57Pianist icing is one of the best movies
19:01made and they're seeing it's more or
19:04less a true story and then
19:06so this as well now was a new technical
19:10thing I don't try to understanding in in
19:13aids have made Holograms of survivors
19:17man is one of them I was sitting in mass
19:21as a little film to be made you can look
19:24it up what is it called the field 115
19:27cameras 115 cameras I was sitting in a
19:32huge cage I call it's a cage a big globe
19:36with 150 cameras around many many lights
19:41and there was a whole week I was asked
19:44about a thousand questions and you can
19:48move as well and this is done by many
19:51survivors different camps different
19:54ghettos different situations so there
19:57are many of those around now and I'm
20:00sitting now in New York in the museum
20:03I'm sitting like this
20:05and people come in and can ask me
20:08questions and so there are many many
20:12interviews means many many people and
20:16one is now being installed in Stockholm
20:19and so will be coming one assing the
20:22Jewish Museum in England with that as
20:25well a copy of me and so but of course
20:30it still not quite the same but it might
20:33help and yeah you have to if you're
20:37interested in history of course we books
20:40some wonderful books from survivors but
20:43well historical books about how it all
20:46came about why and as well many books
20:50about how Hitler came to power how it
20:53was possible to do all this this is
20:56something if I would have more time I
20:57would talk to you about it it's really
21:00starting with the First World War
21:02politically the Germany was so
21:04mistreated by the Allied and that's why
21:08Hitler was able to get to power and so
21:11on
21:11it's all very fascinating and
21:13interesting how all this has been and
21:16as anti-semitism was not openly in
21:20Germany at the time but it was dormant
21:22and if Hitler
21:24can you see Jews also false by
21:27everything went wrong with Germany he
21:30will get a lot of support that this is
21:32what really happened
21:33very good you spoke you spoke as well he
21:36said that otto frank didn't feel that
21:38hate towards towards the germans and
21:42everyone and you've said as well that
21:43you don't feel hate to the german people
21:45as a whole and you haven't got anything
21:46wrong with with the country but the
21:48individuals obviously someone like
21:50Mengele and is like you do feel at that
21:52time when i you know for many many years
21:54I hate that all the German yes and not
21:57only the Germans I hated their whole
21:59world because they realize it could have
22:03been avoided if the world would have
22:06been open to refugees which refugees is
22:11not a new thing I mean they've been in
22:14when the Protestants in the 1580 came to
22:19power and there was a war in in Holland
22:22I grew up in Holland I learned the
22:24history said there was an 80 year war
22:26Catholic against Protestant and
22:29Protestants again Catholics so religious
22:33present prejudice and religious killing
22:36was nothing new but this way how Hitler
22:39plans a killing of a whole people
22:43because they thought was intentional and
22:46they came up with guessing I mean this
22:49was not anything which has ever appeared
22:52in history and I hope it will never ever
22:55come to anything like that again you
22:57used you said the in Austria at the time
23:00when when you were growing up there was
23:01a lot of resentment a lot of anger
23:03because people were very hard hard done
23:05by especially by all the different the
23:08the money that was being gone and people
23:13felt people I think you know it still
23:15today in in many areas society feel very
23:17hard done by and and are trying to take
23:19and people are enabling them still take
23:21anger out on various crevices of that
23:23how do how would you say we should be
23:26looking and watch that I'll ask you to
23:29be too there's people firstly who are
23:30hard done
23:30and who you know are looking you know
23:32for some sort of scapegoat or just some
23:34sort of way out of that of that bad
23:36situation and also how do we react to
23:38those those figures perhaps in society
23:41where who are trying to wrought rally
23:44that sort of anger and hatred that we
23:46saw that we see unfortunate today as
23:48well you know as things the world at the
23:50moment looks again in a very very
23:53difficult situation and it's more
23:57discrimination again and more hatred
23:59after seven when I came back from
24:02Auschwitz people said we have learned
24:04our lesson never again will anything
24:07like that happen but obviously this in
24:10human nature to be dissatisfied and to
24:13find fault with other people and with
24:16other things and so I think
24:19discrimination against different people
24:22different from who you are
24:24white keep people against black people
24:26and Jews against Muslims and Muslim
24:29against Christians and thus there's
24:32again a lot of hatred and the things
24:35this is really a very void situation and
24:39personally I can't understand batchest
24:42religion which is supposed to be
24:45uplifting which is supposed to be
24:47beautiful it is very personal but this
24:51should be such a terrible item of
24:57discontent and and hatred and
24:59discrimination everywhere in the world
25:03says religion different many different
25:06types wherever you go people do believe
25:08in something supernatural because the
25:12thing we seem to need that and said this
25:15person there's nobody's business how
25:18what you think what might happen later
25:20and it's and this is really what we
25:23should try to make children understand
25:26that religion is something very person
25:29is something very beautiful and
25:31everybody has a right to belief in what
25:34they want or without being discriminated
25:36against how do you relate to your after
25:40everything that happens to you for being
25:41Jewish how do you relate to your Judy
25:43now how do you see it I knew you would
25:45we said when you grew up in Vienna you
25:47didn't go to Senegal quite that much you
25:49weren't so severe not but in Germany and
25:52Austria and this is really the amazing
25:55things before when Jews were very
25:57Orthodox they were persecuted because
26:01they were so different but in that time
26:03in them in late 1800 and 1900 in Germany
26:08in Austria Jewish started to be very
26:12assimilated so they went to synagogue
26:16here and there some and more often but
26:18our family went perhaps five six times a
26:22year and and you know we couldn't
26:26understand that we were different as
26:28children we didn't understand why we
26:30were different from other people and
26:33this is still really we are not
26:35different from other people just believe
26:37perhaps in a little bit different things
26:40but it doesn't mean we are different and
26:43this is still something which should try
26:46to teach our children and I think
26:48children are not prejudiced when they go
26:50to nursery they mix with black
26:53children's they don't even see the color
26:55they're colorblind and then soon as they
26:58grow up and they hear opinions and then
27:01suddenly they become full of prejudice
27:03and hatred I don't know if we can ever
27:07educate people to believe in there
27:11shouldn't be any difference but this is
27:13really what we should try to aim for
27:16educating people that as long as you're
27:19a decent person whatever your color or
27:22your religion is it's it's fine it's
27:25okay
27:26do you think that ever will happen do
27:27you think we could we can get to it so
27:29I'm when there isn't that well yes I
27:31think you know it's so logical that we
27:34should sing like said so I really don't
27:37know where we should already air for
27:39chieftain
27:40we are clever enough to realize that so
27:42there is no reason to hate each other
27:45very good thank you very much I think we
27:48can now open our questions to the floor
27:50if any has any questions on the floor
27:52yes
27:57you know what happened to the people who
27:59hit you as a child who hated me well and
28:03and my mother would never set foot it to
28:06Austria and I went back to Austria only
28:09with our youngest daughter in the mid
28:12nineteen seventy and I didn't know
28:16anybody's there anymore you know I
28:18didn't it was a visited Vienna was like
28:21a tourist City for me no contact with
28:24anybody anymore
28:31you hid you the people who in terms of
28:34people or sorry I didn't get sent well
28:38we were of course in many different
28:40hiding places so only the people were
28:45very in the last hiding place severe and
28:48old and old couple who we had known
28:51before because by that time in 1944 when
28:54we had to change again hiding place was
28:58very difficult to find the place and
29:00jojos people took us in and they would
29:04never have survived any camps and my
29:06father negotiated with the Nazis because
29:10we had in that hiding place
29:12we had a powder box with a bottom was
29:16unscrew above and in that we had hid but
29:19we didn't have much left of you know if
29:22you don't earn any money anymore we
29:25didn't earn much then my father and so
29:29he had a little bit of jewelry hidden
29:31there and he said to the Nazis if you
29:33let those people go free I'll tell you
29:37where we have some jewelry hidden and he
29:40really went for that so my mother went
29:44back with a Nazi to his house very well
29:46Esther gives his Menzies powder box and
29:50then SS man took it and there were two
29:55diamonds in the diamond watch still in
29:58it and he took it in he let those people
30:00go free but in general the people if
30:04they were caught was where we're hiding
30:05were sent to come
30:07patient comes as well and many people
30:10who has a resistance workers they of
30:12course shot as well when they were
30:14caught not yes I'm so a recent
30:26evaluation came out that one in twenty
30:28British adults think the Holocaust
30:30didn't happen and an additional eleven
30:32the same thing that less than two
30:34million Jewish people died and it's just
30:37it's really touching what you said about
30:39how like Berlin and Austrian Jews were
30:42among the most assimilated just like my
30:44grandparents and I noticed a sort of
30:46similar trend here in Britain among like
30:48British Jews and how it's sort of how do
30:52you even like conceptualize something
30:55like that rationally because what you
30:57said earlier is that it just seems
30:58logical that we would all want to get
31:00along with each other and judge each
31:01other on merit like how do you even
31:02begin to like dismantle something that
31:05just seems like so fundamentally evil
31:09yeah how how can you understand why
31:13people would do such a thing how could
31:14it how could it make sense to it can it
31:16make sense to you that these things
31:18these people who were so assimilated and
31:20serving debating society can all of a
31:21sudden become so separated and so sort
31:26of struck out of general society the
31:28Jewish people as Jewish people yet well
31:31said serves that's a very difficult
31:34question to either hey you know Abdi
31:37Semitism has existed since Jews eggs
31:40existed and that was just now Methodist
31:47priest who wrote a book about
31:49anti-semitism for centuries and it has
31:53always been and unfortunately it looks
31:57as if it is called of us to be and
31:59people want always to find the scapegoat
32:03was if things go wrong and I don't know
32:07where the Jews are always picked but
32:09this seems to have been in the history
32:11and that is what seems to happen I can't
32:14explain why but that is what it is and
32:17first it was religions and it was raised
32:21and now it is Zionism so you know they
32:24always find a reason why Jewish people
32:28are different advisor could be hated and
32:31eventually destroyed yes
32:45thank you and so I've read the book the
32:48choice by either said girl and I have a
32:51question about your mindset because it
32:55was clear in her book that she had to
32:57get herself into a mindset to get
33:00through her time in the concentration
33:02camp so my question is how do you do it
33:06how how did you get yourself in the
33:09mindset what mindset were you in when
33:10you're in the camp and how did you
33:12manage to sort of get yourself in the
33:13mindset that well you will every
33:16survivor will tell you there was a lot
33:19of luck that is definitely very very
33:22important
33:23little little vary in normal life might
33:27not be important at all but when it is a
33:30matter of life and there's little things
33:32really well seem to have been very
33:34important and you know I was 15 years
33:38old I had had a very wonderful sheltered
33:42life and I really wasn't ready to die
33:46so I never gave up hope you know till
33:50the very end I was really holding on to
33:53life and again you know many many little
33:57incidents happen with helped me sue
33:59again for a little while and you know in
34:04January 1945 when the Russians were
34:08approaching we didn't really know about
34:10that that that seas were going to empty
34:14the whole camp and burning the whole
34:16camp down and but that is when they took
34:20all ready for massing november/december
34:23everyday they emptied penne barracks and
34:26thousands of people marched into Austria
34:28and Germany and of course in the
34:31terrible cold susato-san without food
34:35and many many many people died but by
34:37luck my mother and me didn't go we would
34:40certainly not have made it but there was
34:44one night so we're calling out everybody
34:46out of sabacc we are marching and we
34:50just were so exhausted we just didn't go
34:53we said well perhaps they're not going
34:55anyway now and we stayed and in the
34:57morning they were gone
34:58if we would have gone we would certainly
35:01not have made it you know we were very
35:03very very lucky yes how do you think do
35:16you think that the best way to keep the
35:19outreach story alive to keep the Irish
35:23story alive yeah well you know it is it
35:27is it is there and it is not only
35:31Auschwitz it is important that you know
35:33house which was just one of the 300s
35:37camps and the other thing which you
35:41might be surprised you know we were very
35:43lucky that we were sent to Auschwitz
35:45because in Auschwitz there was a
35:47selection at arrival we had to stand in
35:53in rows of five and manga lab the camp
35:56doctor looked at you and he decided life
36:02or death right or left but you had a
36:05chance
36:06Treblinka for instance there was no
36:09selection everybody who got there where
36:14they walked through a tunnel
36:15decorated with flower pots right into
36:19gas chambers so you know and as it did
36:25go from Holland a good friend of mine
36:28who was an offense friend as well I
36:30found her in a book which a Dutch man
36:33had written it took him many many years
36:36to study all the transports what
36:39happened to the people all the children
36:42who were deported from Holland and I
36:44found his friend of man 15 years old
36:48arrived and was went straight to the gas
36:51chamber if we would have sent her to the
36:53blinker I wouldn't have had a chance to
36:56live so so also it was terrible it you
37:01still had a chance to survive from there
37:03and you know there are so many books
37:07written so many films you can see
37:09documentaries
37:10even feel better Nazis themselves said
37:14it if you're interested you can learn a
37:18lot and that will still be able to do
37:21that for generations
37:23I hope I'm right another question I'm
37:26FEU said that when it came to fiction
37:28books as an education tool that they
37:30weren't they what they aren't good
37:32I'm things like the boy in striped
37:33pajamas he said isn't a good example of
37:34what should be done but at the same time
37:36art is something that really thrived
37:39cheering the Holocaust surprisingly and
37:42there's a lot of artwork now that sort
37:43of it's somewhat inspired by the events
37:45that occurred in that time what do you
37:48think is the line between those two um
37:50you know what what points we say you
37:52know we can sort of interpret things and
37:54we can it's important to sort of
37:56represent things through art and what
37:57point do we say this is just fictional
37:59and we're always getting into dangerous
38:01territory
38:01um is there a line that can be drawn at
38:03all well art in in Terezin which is a
38:07camp in Czechoslovakia for children
38:10we're not murdered at the time in the
38:13beginning anyway and they expressed
38:16themselves at lessons they had place
38:18even very very moving very interesting
38:23they did a lot of drawings which were
38:26saved and they are being shown around
38:28and then exhibition and it's amazing
38:33what so children they're actually very
38:36very sad you know they write about
38:38trains
38:40it's Venson later to Auschwitz and they
38:43draw yeah you must must see those
38:48paintings there are books about it as
38:51well very very beautiful and the
38:53children and art is something very it's
38:56very expressive and as well you'd see
39:00people in old people's home sick have
39:04lessons to add to express themselves and
39:06it is it is important art is important
39:11and it's also centuries like from God
39:15for instance he was disturbed that how
39:17expressed himself you know that is him
39:20that is one of the important things and
39:22there were here
39:24projects to from the governance sets of
39:27want to cut out out for a levels but
39:31that is you know that is terrible
39:33because it is healing and it is
39:36expression of people that is something
39:38very very important to keep going map
39:41browser in hiding so he was a musician
39:43really started to paint and he created
39:47some amazing artwork and as things that
39:50kept him sane so the two years he was
39:53cut off from his family and from his
39:55friends and I donated some a few years
39:59ago to the resistance Museum in
40:02Amsterdam so that many people can see it
40:05and you know again that's a promise from
40:09my father to him that he won't be
40:11forgotten is kept alive
40:13are there any questions from the top yes
40:34what what hidaya ratio report the end
40:38and we said what can you share with us
40:40about an that you know van well we were
40:44both 11 years old and we met and they
40:48emigrated from Germany in 1934 so cried
40:52early and so she had no complex yet
40:55about persecuting persecutions he had an
40:58experience that she was a very happy
41:00child and she wrote of course a diary in
41:06hiding but when I got it in 1945 also
41:13showed it to me and then in 47 when it
41:16was published also had difficulty
41:18publishing because after the war people
41:21didn't really want to know anything
41:23about the war so once he said let's just
41:26move on and try to forget about it
41:28but it was the first book which talked a
41:32little bit about this period and I
41:35always say it's not a holocaust story
41:37because unfortunately in the camp of
41:41course he couldn't write anymore and she
41:44didn't experience in the book and what
41:48what really happened she couldn't write
41:50about that and so and it was the first
41:54book had come out about this time and
41:57when it came out in America it became a
42:00best-seller that was in 1952 because
42:04that was as far as people wanted to
42:07learn anything about this dead period if
42:09I would have written my book nobody
42:12would have looked at it it was too hard
42:14you know people were not ready to listen
42:18to all this only in the villians late
42:2170s and 80s that people wanted to start
42:24to know to inquire to ask us what really
42:29happened and yeah so and so of course
42:38what is very important in her book is
42:41besides that she tells that everyday
42:43life what has happened which personally
42:45I don't find that interesting
42:47but what this see was very wise we
42:51certain and 14 years old she had already
42:54ideas about feminism about a charitable
43:00work about all kind of things which I
43:04think be certain I never even thought
43:06about things like that and but Otto
43:09Frank became my stepfather and he was a
43:12humanitarian and I must say as service
43:17together with him she and Otto were very
43:20very close and at the bed relationship
43:23with her mother her father was
43:25everything for her and you know the two
43:28years in hiding were actually for her of
43:32course a very afraid and that was bad
43:35but she was with her father he told her
43:39that had all the Dickens books together
43:41said that Greek mythology so Otto was a
43:45humanitarian he was highly educated and
43:49you can read that in Anna's daggers that
43:51she learned a lot from her dad yes
43:57whatever there yep
44:03hi thank you very much for sharing your
44:06story it's been really a privilege to
44:08listen to you could you possibly share
44:11it did you ever have any awareness in
44:14hiding of kind of what was going on in
44:16the outside world being that kind of cut
44:19off from what's going on in the war
44:21itself how did you receive information
44:25about I don't know how the war was
44:27progressing etcetera which time when
44:32you're going to camp when you're in
44:34hiding in the hiding well yes in hiding
44:37so you were not allowed to listen to
44:40foreign radio only it was a Dutch radio
44:43and to the German radio of course you
44:46never heard really what was really going
44:48on in the war but the people they were
44:52hiding usually people who wear
44:54resistance workers had a radio you had a
44:59little Baker with radio it's a hidden a
45:02cupboard and the BBC's and broadcast out
45:05at nine o'clock to the dutch in dutch
45:08language and they sent actually
45:10broadcast out to all the occupied
45:12countries in their own language and so
45:16we were glued to it at nine o'clock we
45:19listened to the BBC it started always
45:22thought that the data that this is a BBC
45:26from london and they told us about
45:30progress of war was making in nineteen
45:33forty three forty four it started
45:35already to look a little bit more
45:38hopeful and they were talking about that
45:41invasion so when we were caught we did
45:44not know anything that was an invasion
45:47when the franks were caught in august an
45:50invasion had already taken place so they
45:53they are much more hopeful said the
45:56world world and very very soon but of
45:58course it lasted dearly another year but
46:01when we were caught we never talked
46:04about it but nothing had really happened
46:06so so we did know what was going on we
46:11knew that the Germans were defeated
46:14already in
46:15freaka and as well as its Russians were
46:18defeating the Germans in in Stalingrad
46:22this what happened so we had hope we had
46:27hope just wondering what are some of the
46:42emotions that are going through your
46:43body when you're experiencing something
46:46like that when the people that mean so
46:47much to you or you know things like that
46:49are happening right now see things now I
46:52happening no I think it was at the time
46:54when you when things were happening to
46:56you know when people you thought cared
46:58about you don't care didn't care about
46:59you anymore and the people around you
47:01when the people around you don't you
47:02thought cared about you but they don't
47:04care about you anymore and well you know
47:06the wider world around you just didn't
47:09care did care because you know Jewish
47:13people who wanted to go into hiding and
47:16we're lucky enough to meet people who
47:18were within the resistant and all the
47:21occupied countries so where people who
47:23worked incident not hate hating the
47:26German nobody wants to occupied by
47:28foreign power and in France as well many
47:32many Jewish children and people were
47:35hidden back in monasteries said in in
47:38schools and so on you know if this
47:42wouldn't have happened many many more
47:44Jews would have perished so you know
47:48there were quite a lot of wonderful
47:50people as well around it wasn't all evil
47:53but the majority of course in Germany
47:58and again in Germany definitely not
48:01everybody agreed what's an office were
48:03doing but they were cowardly and they
48:06were bystanders and this is one of the
48:09things which had teach to children now
48:11if you see injustice being done don't be
48:15a bystander have the courage to speak up
48:18and to help the people who are being
48:21attacked or discriminated against this
48:24is for really something very important
48:27and especially here is always you young
48:30students and so on you will be our
48:33future
48:34we have great hope for the future you
48:37have seen how dangerous it is to hate
48:39people to discriminate against people
48:42and it will be up to you to create a
48:45safer and better world and I think you
48:49know you all have it now much much
48:51better than it was in the thirties in
48:54the forties not just with a war but the
48:57economy was you know now there's
49:01enormous riches in the world we are very
49:04blessed with a wonderful world which has
49:06been given which have to provide with us
49:09for food for heating for everything we
49:13have everything and we don't appreciate
49:15that we become greedy we want to have
49:18more and more and we don't care you
49:21knowing we are one of the richest
49:23country in Europe and look how many
49:25homeless people are around how many you
49:29hear every day in the television Center
49:32million children who go hungry I mean
49:35this is a big scandal that is not
49:38necessary we have to share what we have
49:41got with this everybody we are lucky we
49:44have so much and that is not just for a
49:47few rich it is for everybody
49:49very good yes
49:59what was it in 1986 or the year that you
50:04decided to tell your husband about your
50:06story that made you want to start
50:08sharing your story good question
50:12well it was already you know I started
50:15already to take notice of the different
50:18wars the Vietnamese war when people from
50:24Korea and and why Korea and Vietnam
50:28tried to escape in little boats and the
50:32big ships passed them and didn't pick
50:36them up and people drowned and I said
50:38well again the world doesn't care about
50:41people and their fancies really you know
50:44after what we had been sober people said
50:47never again out of it we have learned
50:49our lesson we hadn't learned our lesson
50:52so I started to be interested in
50:54politics and then but really started to
50:58make me talks it was a puta was put on
51:01the spot so was in in Amsterdam say Anna
51:05Frank House where the people were hiding
51:08became a museum and the peoples there's
51:11a historians decided not everybody can
51:14come to Amsterdam to see what has
51:17happened to the Frank family and Jewish
51:19people in general and they decided to
51:21make travelling exhibitions to go in
51:24different countries and the very first
51:27one was in English which came to London
51:30in 1986 and it was Ken Livingstone who
51:36organized this and of course my mother
51:39and me were invited to attend Otto Frank
51:41had died he was 91 in that in 1980 and
51:47we went to this exhibition and the talk
51:51and there was a big audience and there
51:56was a poor ad podium and there were a
51:59few chairs a few people spoke and can
52:02living her said to me come and sit with
52:04us at his head table which I did that
52:07shot alright I go and sit there
52:09and its end after everybody had spoken
52:12about the importance of this exhibition
52:14to learn about what has happened
52:17till then till the 80s there wasn't a
52:19lot known about it and so everybody
52:23spoke with him movingly and then he said
52:26to me and now go and say something Eva
52:29will say something to you
52:31well I'd never ever spoken openly I was
52:34still very shy and I really wanted to
52:37hide under the table which I couldn't
52:39really do so I got up and had no idea
52:43what what on earth can I say where
52:46should I start ever spending but after a
52:50few seconds a few minutes I don't know
52:52everything that had suppressed for 40
52:55years comes flooding out and they
52:58couldn't stop me and I'm sure it was
53:02just a big model but it was a big relief
53:04for me you know whether speaking America
53:08the first things they always asked me
53:10did you have counseling I said no that
53:15didn't exist in the forties in Europe
53:18people just had to try to get through
53:21their own problems by themselves and but
53:26being open to suddenly talk about it was
53:30a big big relief for me because till
53:33this time I always had nightmares I
53:36couldn't you know at night it all came
53:38out and I saw all the images in front of
53:41me so and now when our soldiers come
53:45back from the war the first thing is
53:47that they have actually counselling
53:50because you can't just after seeing
53:52horrific things experienced terrible
53:55things you can't just go back to your
53:57family and carry on where you of left
54:00off you have to talk about it and you
54:03said it was something that you had said
54:05you must had to learn how to do you
54:06couldn't it wasn't easy just to talk
54:07about you know it's very difficult and
54:10then this exhibition traveled a saying
54:13it went to Leeds to Aberdeen to
54:15Manchester and they always wanted me to
54:17say a few words I always had to take a
54:20tranquilizer
54:22you know you're not used to speak about
54:24your emotions and about your experience
54:26like that but eventually I was able to
54:30do it and now it's comes quite natural
54:33and now people are really interested as
54:37well and that helps of course you know
54:39before people were afraid to really know
54:41what this really happened because I
54:44think the world in or in the other hole
54:47felt guilty about to have tolerated all
54:52this because I want to see more
54:55questions yes so after the Nazis lost
55:10and Stalin had his ruthless
55:14cosmopolitanism campaign between 48 and
55:1853 or something like that against the
55:22Jews again was it like a betrayal by
55:24those people who defeated the Nazis so
55:28the Soviets the Russians didn't feel
55:32like a betrayal from the Soviets when
55:33they turned against the Jews later as
55:35well did it feel like a betrayal from
55:39from the Soviets who freed outfits then
55:43went arm and tattoos in their own
55:46countries later on well I must say you
55:49know I have no complaints whatsoever
55:51about so Russia's so liberated us so it
55:54was January end of January and there was
55:58fierce fighting in Poland it's a time
56:01because you can imagine the Germans
56:05didn't want the Russians to come into
56:07Germany because with revels and with
56:11Russian eastward for till May we
56:15traveled from gen end of January till
56:17May because that troops were going
56:21westward and we were going eastward they
56:24had to provide us with food with
56:26transport his clothes he gave us us in
56:29uniforms
56:30and they were pursuing the Nazis and of
56:35course in Germany's a did rape and
56:37looted that shot people but we saw
56:41unbelievable devastation in Russia
56:43the Germans had burned down every town
56:46every village had ruined everything
56:48and it's a time Stalin was of course
56:52still in power and he was at times
56:57anti-semitic but and now for instance I
57:02know Putin is a it's not very popular in
57:06the West but Putin s actually very poor
57:10Jewish the Shabbat which is a very
57:13Orthodox group of Jewish people
57:16well comings will be having welcomes
57:18their there forever is a spread out
57:22Judaism they're allowed to preach it all
57:25and tell it and the Jewish people are
57:28very welcome now in Russia so it depends
57:31on the government really which is not
57:35anti-semitic at the moment yes sir I
57:43wanted to ask do you feel like Germany
57:46has adequately addressed the short
57:48clogger
57:49sorry that the short Prager but the
57:53question of guilt
57:54during the German whether Germany had
57:57questions okay that's fine um do you
57:59think that the Germans have sought
58:03sufficiently addressed the question of
58:04guilt over the years yes the Germans
58:09have been much much much better than the
58:12Austrian for instance so Austrian said
58:14there are victims themselves which
58:17certainly we're not and Germany yes I
58:21must say it would not be what it is now
58:24if it wasn't for the help of financial
58:27help and the Germans and as well the
58:30victims have been well you can't
58:34compensate lives with money that's a you
58:37know it was all they could do but they
58:39are looking after people have good
58:41pensions people looked after
58:43and even now they've taken in lots of
58:47Russian Jews at the time when they were
58:49still trying to get out of Russia and
58:52they paid for everything I went to
58:55Frankfurt which is on the border that to
58:58Frankfurt on the order and there's a big
59:01hostel with some many many old German
59:06Russian Jews who everything is paid by
59:11the German government and yeah so but of
59:15course now things have changed says and
59:18right-wing party now and if they carry
59:21on you don't know what is going to
59:23happen things are really in a big yeah
59:28uncertainty everywhere everywhere
59:30right-wing parties coming up who are
59:33anti-refugee said aunty Jews and Aunty
59:36Muslims and Aunty all kind of things and
59:39this is really not what we want again
59:43thank you um well I'd like to thank Eva
59:46for speaking this evening you're you're
59:49be answered a number of questions I
59:50think you've really so killed us
59:51something to think about
59:52I'm so glad to thank you
59:54[Music]
59:58[Applause]
1:00:02[Music]
1:00:18ontology autism
1:00:24[Music]

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