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Ethiopian Orthodox Deacon: The Modern World Gets Orthodoxy Wrong | @WesternDiocese@dawitmuluneh — Transcript

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0:00Orthodoxy is hijacked and our story is
0:02being told by um by others of what
0:06orthodoxy is unless we're at the
0:08forefront and we tell our own history,
0:10our own story and people would do it for
0:13us. And that's why I think it's
0:15important the church is not broken. We
0:17are the church is here to fix us. The
0:20church doesn't need fixing. Um sure
0:23there are people within the church that
0:25need fixing. Sure, there's people in
0:29leadership that need fixing. [music]
0:31Church is not this thing that we do on
0:33Sunday. Christianity is not something we
0:35practice on Sunday. It's something we
0:37live throughout the day. It's the way
0:38that we live. But we believe that blood
0:41from 2,000 years ago is real here today
0:44and is watching us through communion.
0:46>> Mhm.
0:46>> It it has to touch me. You see,
0:48[clears throat] it has to touch me. When
0:49you go in a monastery, you see the
0:51gospel. You don't just read it. You get
0:53to see the gospel. So that was um a real
0:57humbling experience to see what the
1:00gospel preaches [music] about. We are
1:02reading the church fathers not for life,
1:05[music]
1:05>> not to be with Christ, but I could site
1:08all these church. Ignatius said this and
1:10Ethanius said this and be said this,
1:13right? So it's like we we have like
1:14these like languages and words and and
1:18things like that with no life to follow
1:21it. God is not looking for a perfect
1:22faith. He wants an honest faith.
1:26>> What happens when you have everything
1:28the world tells you should make you
1:30happy, but your soul is still searching
1:32for something more? At 27, my guest sold
1:36his house, a car, left behind a
1:38successful career in engineering and
1:40traveled to Ethiopia to study in the
1:42monastery. Deacon Dawit Mulun is an
1:45author, scholar, a teacher in our sister
1:48Ethiopian Orthodox Tohida Church. Today
1:50we'll speak about the five pillars of
1:52mystery, the Ethiopian biblical
1:55tradition, the art of interpreting
1:57scripture, and the battle over Ethiopian
2:00history. We will also discover some
2:02beautiful and largely forgotten
2:04connections between the Ethiopian and
2:06Armenian churches. Friends, before we
2:09start, I wanted to remind you that this
2:11video is a collaboration between the
2:13Western Dasis of the Armenian Apostolic
2:15Church and myself. We would really truly
2:18appreciate it if you subscribe to my
2:20channel Ola Sona and to the channel of
2:22the Western Dasis. And now let's welcome
2:25our wonderful guest Deacon Dawit.
2:28Welcome to Dustin Glory. It's such an
2:31honor to have you. Thank you for coming.
2:35>> Thank you for having me. Uh that was
2:36very uh [laughter]
2:38introduction was very, you know, deep
2:40and um I don't know, intimidating. You
2:43know what I mean? But uh [laughter]
2:45>> that was not my
2:46>> Thank you for having me. I appreciate
2:47it.
2:49>> Wow.
2:51But I appreciate it. Thank you so much
2:52for for inviting me and and I'm excited
2:55to have this conversation.
2:56>> Me too. Let's get just get into it.
2:59[laughter]
3:00Um, Deacon Dawit, so before you sold
3:04your car, your house, and moved to
3:07another country to study theology,
3:10what was your uh what was your life like
3:13here in the United States? And what were
3:15you searching there that you couldn't
3:17the successful life in America couldn't
3:19provide for you?
3:21>> Yeah, thank you for that question. Um,
3:23you know, I was an engineer, uh,
3:25straight out of college, uh, working for
3:27the patent office, um, you know, making
3:29pretty good money. And I was also a
3:32Sunday school teacher. And I remember
3:33teaching and trying to, um, you know,
3:36figure out, um, you know, what what to
3:39provide for my students. And one of the
3:40things that I was always, you know,
3:43careful about is I never wanted to go
3:45outside of the parameter of the church.
3:47And it's one thing to read the church or
3:51read something and then say, "I'm going
3:52to talk about the church." And it's
3:54another thing to talk about the the
3:55church that you have seen, that you've
3:57known, right? Um and and that's what
4:00kind of sparked my interest to say, you
4:02know, I'm not satisfied with reading
4:04about the church. I need to go see it.
4:06Um and uh when I went back there, I
4:10learned the traditional school uh what's
4:12known as poetry or kenn um with wax and
4:16gold. Maybe you've heard uh this phrase
4:18before. And uh but really what I was
4:21going for is I needed to know the feel
4:24right of the church. You need to be in
4:27it, submerged in it to talk about a
4:30society, a tradition, a a a people. Um
4:35uh in order to do that, you have to live
4:37in there. And I was very humbled um and
4:40and and was there and and saw a lot of
4:44things uh I faced a lot of things but um
4:48it was one of the best uh experiences of
4:50my life.
4:51>> What truly changed in you? Not just what
4:54university taught you but what truly
4:56changed in you there while you were
4:58studying?
5:00>> Yeah. So I was in a monastery. I wasn't
5:02uh the university came after I came back
5:04to the states but when I was there I was
5:07uh among um the people and I would say
5:11um I was I was just having this
5:13conversation with somebody else the
5:14other day you know when when people talk
5:17about the church negatively negatively
5:20um you you have people like one of two
5:23reactions right um one is man that's
5:26unfortunate right and the other one is
5:29like like our our forefathers right?
5:31Like it hurts like deeply, right?
5:34>> And I think what really changed for me
5:37is the church is not just a concept.
5:40It's like my my mother like like really.
5:43>> So I'm very protective now because I saw
5:46it. I lived there. Um and and and
5:50I'm not, you know, it's like um what is
5:52it in in first John? I believe he's he
5:55says we were preaching about the Jesus
5:56that we saw, we ate with, we touched.
5:58you know, it's not this theory that
6:00we're talking about. It's this thing
6:02that we we were there like, and that's
6:05how I feel about the church living in
6:07the monastery, right? Like I'm preaching
6:09about the things that I've seen. Uh we
6:12have this expression in the Ethiopian
6:14tradition like um sure there's a lot of
6:17things written about uh but when you go
6:19in a monastery, you see the gospel. You
6:21don't just read it, you get to see the
6:24gospel. So that was um a real humbling
6:27experience to see what the gospel
6:30preaches about.
6:32>> When you returned to America, what was
6:34the one habit that was the most
6:37difficult to maintain being here, living
6:39here?
6:41>> Uh you know, I would say two things. So
6:46the first one is we used to wear like
6:47this big garment uh around when we walk
6:50around. Um, and I remember, you know,
6:53walking around like without it, I felt
6:56naked. Like it [laughter] was just I
6:58felt like people were watching me, you
7:00know. And it's so it's interesting,
7:02isn't it? Um, our bodies um the the
7:07termin is like bal, which means like um
7:10like unbehaved. Okay. Uh it's because
7:14like whatever like if you let it go,
7:16your body will go, right? uh but if you
7:18retain it like you then it could be
7:20taught very easily. So that was the
7:22first thing. The second thing is um and
7:25and a funny story to go with it is um
7:29church started at 2:00 a.m. and it was a
7:3145minut journey meaning we needed to
7:33wake up at 1:00 a.m. to go to church.
7:35>> Mhm.
7:37>> And um
7:38>> Oh my god. you know, you wake up at 1:00
7:41a.m. or you wait could [laughter]
7:43>> we met up at 1:00 and started a journey
7:46to church and then my two service would
7:48begin, you know, and then it would go
7:51until um about 11:00 a.m. And I remember
7:55when I first got there, I was like, I'm
7:57I'm not doing that, guys. I'm not I'm
7:59not going to do that. Uh, I I'll catch
8:01up with you at like 6:00 a.m. But that
8:04meant like I had to make that 45minute
8:06journey by myself in the middle of the
8:08mountains with um wild animals and
8:12things like that. And there was one day
8:15where there was these like wild dogs. Um
8:19I think they were possessed by the way,
8:20but that's a story for different a
8:22different day. So, like, you know, they
8:23were like about to attack me and that's
8:25when I said, "Okay, this might be Jesus
8:27telling me I need to go at 1:00 a.m."
8:29But, you know, when I came back to the
8:31States and I was used to that and it
8:34became like, like I said, like our body
8:36is a student. It learns whatever you
8:37teach it, I was used to it. And then,
8:39um, in the Ethiopian, right, we start
8:41literature at 6:00 a.m. And like waking
8:43up at 6:00 was like easy, but then
8:46afterwards it started becoming hard. And
8:49and I always go back like there was a
8:51time I used to wake up at 1:00 and now
8:53like waking up at 6:00 is like this such
8:56a difficult thing and it goes back to
8:58whatever you teach your body it'll get
9:00used to it.
9:01>> So [snorts] and that's the Sunday
9:03liturgy right that starts at uh 1 2 a.m.
9:08>> Um
9:08>> but you know you're Orthodox.
9:10>> Yeah.
9:11>> Yeah. So so we we love to do prayer
9:13before prayer. So we have liturgy that
9:15starts at 6:00 and then we have the
9:17preparation with the covenant prayer
9:19that starts around 5:30 and then in in
9:21preparation for that we have a different
9:23you know so
9:24>> yeah so it's the morning service uh so
9:27maintenance right and then um the
9:29liturgy right is that
9:31>> the correct order and then
9:33>> yeah yeah yeah
9:34>> so yeah it's the same for us but it it
9:37only lasts three three to four hours
9:40never more than that
9:41>> but yeah I know I've heard a thought
9:44about Ethiopian tradition of Yeah.
9:47>> You know you're Orthodox when you say
9:48the prayer is only four hours. You know
9:50the prayer [laughter] is only four
9:51hours. That that's how you know you're
9:52Orthodox.
9:56>> That's only four hours.
9:57>> That's true. That's so true. The liturgy
10:00liturgy itself depending on the church
10:02but most of the time it's about two and
10:04a half three hours. Um in Armenia it's
10:06longer but generally yeah two and a half
10:093 hours. But then if you consider the
10:11morning service as well then yeah it
10:13becomes something of a 4hour adventure
10:17in the on Sunday morning.
10:19>> Adventure I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
10:20[laughter]
10:21>> For me it's always like that.
10:23>> Um so coming back to the United States
10:26um waking up at 6 was somehow more
10:31difficult than waking up at 1.
10:33>> Absolutely. Absolutely. you know, and
10:36and and that's one thing that I learned,
10:38right? Um the environment changes you,
10:40right?
10:41>> Um there um for example, fasting, I've
10:44been talking about this recently.
10:46>> Any Ethiopian um it's harder not to
10:50fast,
10:52>> right? Uh let's say, you know, we fast
10:54Wednesdays and Fridays, right? So on a
10:57Wednesday if it's harder to find like a
10:59burger like cuz the whole country is
11:02like especially where I was like it's
11:04you can't you can't find it's it's
11:06difficult.
11:07>> So you end up fasting. My mom used to
11:09tell me her dog used to fast
11:12>> because um you know they would skip
11:14breakfast when they were fasting the
11:16days they were fasting. So when they
11:18would bring him food and the dog only
11:21ate with the with the people you know.
11:23So when they brought him food and he saw
11:25people weren't eating, he would just not
11:27eat, you know. So it's like it's just
11:30that that the the society is built into
11:32in America. It's very different. The
11:35culture is very different. How that has
11:38affected me is is I'm preparing to, you
11:42know, uh go into priesthood and and
11:44guide people like not be judgmental,
11:47right? Um and we are dealing with
11:51different people and especially parents.
11:53If you're listening to this um and you
11:55have kids that are growing up here, we
11:56need to understand. I'm not saying it's
11:58okay and like just don't let don't do
12:00anything, but it's compassion. Being
12:02compassionate goes a long way. Um it's
12:05difficult being in America is is hard.
12:07It's hard,
12:09>> right?
12:10>> There are too many temptations even
12:13>> Yeah. everything is available at our
12:15fingertips like every single uh you know
12:18whether it's a meal or grocery delivery
12:22or um even like I remember listening to
12:25someone saying that it used to be
12:28difficult for children to go to do
12:31groceries because it would put them in
12:33the situation when they have to make eye
12:34contact they have to make a small talk
12:37right and now you just order it online
12:40we're used to comfort we're used to our
12:41comfort Um
12:44>> I was wondering so coming from
12:46engineering um you train you were
12:49trained both in engineering and theology
12:52and engineering teaches us to solve
12:54problems versus theology sometimes is
12:58requiring us to be uh present um and and
13:02and stay silent in front of the mystery
13:05of God. How do these two worlds or two
13:09ways of thinking clash within your um
13:12worldview or maybe they don't coll?
13:14>> Yeah, great question.
13:16>> Great question. So, I I have done some
13:18theology but I don't consider myself as
13:20a theologian. I have done more of
13:23history. Um I've done more of uh African
13:27studies is is what I got my PhD in. Um
13:31and um and Ethiopic studies. So I don't
13:35consider those as theology per se but
13:38but to to answer your question um
13:41engineering at its core is about solving
13:44problems and how it solves problems is a
13:47a two-step idea. Identify the problem
13:50and then find a solution. It sounds so
13:52simple, right? That's what engineering
13:54is about. Identify the problem, find a
13:56solution. So when I attack something
13:58whether I'm trying to understand history
14:00or giving a sermon or doing an outline
14:04um those skill sets and to break things
14:08down in a very logical way um is what I
14:12receive from engineering and I think
14:13that's why um when I give sermons a lot
14:16of people are able to kind of like
14:18resonate with it because of like the
14:20problem like solving skills is all
14:23engineering. Um, and then when when it
14:26comes to the humanities and and and and
14:30African studies and Ethiopian studies,
14:32um, that's why I'm able to identify
14:35certain things, I think, from a
14:37different perspective. Um, and I'm able
14:40to kind of like integrate all this into
14:42like one uh one output.
14:44>> You know, I I wanted to speak about the
14:47five uh pillars of mystery of Ethiopian
14:50Orthodox Church. Um I was wondering if
14:53you could tell us a little bit more
14:54about that in a story versus separate
14:58theological teachings because primarily
15:02life of Christians is organized around
15:05um you know dogmas and doctrines and uh
15:08uh the creed of course and the seven
15:10sacraments but there's something
15:13different about the five pillars of
15:15mystery and [snorts] I was wondering how
15:17would you tell it as a you know
15:19>> thank you for
15:21Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know,
15:23when I when I was taught um in high
15:26[clears throat] school, I I learned
15:27about him from the five pillars of
15:30mystery singular. So, the idea being
15:33that there's one mystery, the mystery of
15:35God, right? And how God has saved us. Uh
15:38but in this one mystery, there are five
15:40pillars that are holding this this one
15:42mystery. um the mystery of of love, the
15:46mystery of salvation, the mystery of how
15:49we were saved. Um
15:52and interestingly,
15:54uh you know, I I like you said, I always
15:57saw them as like, you know, independent
16:00pillars, right? uh other than this kind
16:02of like framing of like five pillars
16:05holding up um one one one uh mystery
16:09kind of like how five you know pillars
16:11could hold up a roof or a house or
16:13something
16:14>> but you know over the years as I keep
16:16reading like you said it is one story
16:19and uh the center of our faith is Christ
16:22um as St. Paul said, you know, Christ's
16:26resurrection is is the key, right? If he
16:28hasn't resurrected, our faith means
16:29nothing. This if he if if he didn't
16:31defeat death, our our our faith means
16:34nothing. Um and the five pillars of
16:37mystery articulates that um uh through
16:40theology. So, how does that work? Well,
16:43we say Christ died, but what does that
16:45really mean? Why should we care, right?
16:49Why is that a big deal for our
16:50salvation? We say it all the time.
16:53Christ died for me. But what does that
16:55really mean? Well, to understand that
16:58you begin with who is God? The the the
17:01first pillar mystery of trinity. And I
17:04was our forefathers have said when I say
17:06God, I mean the father, the son, the
17:08holy spirit. Okay. So this is the the
17:10the wording and the idea the concept the
17:13teachings of our early forefathers. When
17:15I say god I'm talking about the father.
17:19I'm talking about the son. I'm talking
17:20about the holy spirit. So who is this
17:23God? Well, this God is the creator of
17:26heaven and earth. He is the one who
17:28created me and you. This God who is all
17:32powerful,
17:33omni potent, omnipotence, all powerful,
17:37omniscient, all knowing, omniscient,
17:39right? Uh omniresent, present
17:41everywhere, eternal. This God
17:45because he loved us created the world.
17:47This God who has who is the God of gods,
17:51the king of kings, the lord of lords.
17:53This is the god. And when I say god, I'm
17:55talking about the father and son, the
17:57holy spirit. If you understand this
17:59concept,
18:00>> then you see how profound it is to say
18:03this god
18:05>> became man.
18:07>> You see?
18:08>> Yeah.
18:08>> Mystery of incarnation, the second
18:10pillar. It is this God and from the
18:13three persons the one in the unique
18:15person God the son came to this world
18:17and became man so he can die for you. He
18:21he that God that God we just talked
18:23about the mystery of of Trinity. Now
18:26mystery in incarnation we say that
18:28powerful God because he loves you
18:31allowed himself to be beat.
18:35He was spat on. He was put on the cross
18:39for you and I. That God
18:42right now gives a weight. It's no longer
18:45Christ died for me. It's this God. This
18:47God, the God you just told me he created
18:49the world. This this God. This God did
18:52that. The God that you said is all
18:54powerful. This God subjected himself for
18:57me because he loves me. Because he loves
18:59me.
19:01And he gave me this gift called
19:03salvation that I get through something
19:06we call baptism. The third pillar.
19:09>> It is this salvation that we have. This
19:12gift. He said, "Okay, now you have
19:15salvation. You are my child. You are
19:18adopted as my child." What we call the
19:20door to all the other sacraments. And as
19:23a gift, I'm giving you my flesh and
19:24blood so we could be in communion. The
19:26fourth pillar. And if you could do this,
19:30I will come back and take you into the
19:32kingdom. This is the hope I give you,
19:34the mystery of resurrection, which is
19:36the fifth pillar. And it is this
19:38cohesiveness that we see in the pillar,
19:41the the five pillars that say we believe
19:45in these things that are kind of
19:48articulating what the Bibles are telling
19:50us in a very systematic um way.
19:54>> Yeah, that's so interesting. Um, what do
19:58you think the fact that your catechis
20:00starts with the five pillars of mystery?
20:04What does it say specifically about
20:06theology of Ethiopian Orthodox Church?
20:11>> Yeah, it says um number one, there's a
20:14way that we uh understand uh uh
20:17Christianity in this uh you know
20:21collectiveness. Uh what I love about um
20:25our uh church and the way that it
20:27describes it and I don't think it's
20:28exclusive to Ethiopian church but it is
20:32um there is this collective idea of of
20:35salvation. So
20:38um not not to to poke at my Protestant
20:42brothers sisters but they have like um
20:44you know like a book called salvation or
20:47you know like or a course on salvation.
20:50But for for the the Ethiopian right,
20:52it's so weird. It's bizarre to say,
20:55"Show me your book on salvation." That's
20:57like a bizarre question,
21:00you know, like I I don't I don't
21:02understand the question, right? It's
21:04kind of like saying, "Okay, where do you
21:06bleed? Do you bleed here? Do you bleed
21:09here?" Like, what? Blood is all all
21:11over. Salvation is all over. So this is
21:15a very systematic way to kind of
21:18articulate the salvation that we find
21:20everywhere. We find it in the Old
21:21Testament, we find in the New Testament,
21:22we find in early church teachings, we
21:24find it when we go to the monastery to
21:26see the gospel. We see it everywhere,
21:28right? But in order to help articulate
21:31and we often forget the Bible is not
21:33written for God, it's written for us,
21:34right? As as to help us understand what
21:36what what what we need to know about
21:38God, not what God needs to know about
21:40us. the same way that these kind of um
21:43systematic places are to say, "Okay,
21:45salvation is everywhere, but we're going
21:48to kind of like uh uh put it in this
21:50way." So, we as human beings can start
21:52to understand what the teaching of the
21:55church is about. And it really gives you
21:57this this like you said, this idea of
21:59how we understand theology, how we
22:01understand uh uh God in its own. We
22:03don't put him in a box. Uh we we say,
22:06"Look, he's everywhere. He's not in a
22:08book. uh he's everywhere. Um and and
22:12this five pillars really shows that
22:14because when you learn about the five
22:15pillars, you talk about God, you know,
22:18the trinity, you go into early church
22:20history, you go into Old Testament, you
22:22go into New Testament, you go into
22:23commentary. So there isn't this like one
22:26one, you know, like let me like here I
22:29can point to salvation. We don't we
22:31don't do that.
22:32>> We don't do that, right? So I think this
22:35is this is what um the this uh
22:38articulation of the five pillars shows
22:40us
22:41>> that is fascinating to me. So this the
22:44five pillars of mystery is basically the
22:47story of God's love towards us. And it's
22:50impossible to understand that story of
22:52love if you don't know that love existed
22:56within the trinity from the beginning of
23:00existence. Right? From there's no
23:02beginning in God. So he is the
23:04beginning. He's the alpha and the omega.
23:05So love always existed within the
23:08trinity. But what does that love that
23:11exists between the father, the son, and
23:13the holy spirit um how does that
23:15translate into the love that god has for
23:18us humans?
23:21>> Yeah. So this this is a great question.
23:23So like you said um what we learn in the
23:25trinity is is is the concept of love the
23:27relation uh that the father has with his
23:30son and and how um the holy spirit uh is
23:35also in relation to the father and the
23:37holy spirit. Um and what we see with
23:40that is if you have a lot of love you'll
23:43give it back. You'll you'll return it.
23:46I'll give you an example. Um I love my
23:48wife dearly. Um, and I hope my wife
23:51loves me in return. [laughter]
23:53Uh, but because because we were in love,
23:56we wanted to share this love. And the
23:59only thing that we can say, okay, we
24:02want to share this love is by having
24:05kids. And we have we have a beautiful
24:06boy. He's a terrorist, by the way. Um,
24:08and and and you know, like he's running
24:10around doing all these things and and he
24:12poops everywhere. He like screams and
24:15yells. You know,
24:16>> is he two or three?
24:17>> Love him.
24:18>> Is it two or three? He's He's about to
24:19be two. He's He's right around the
24:22corner. He's about to be two. Exactly.
24:24>> I understand that. [laughter]
24:26>> So, are you telling me it gets worse?
24:28>> It It gets It gets worse in a different
24:31way, but easier in some ways, for sure.
24:33[laughter] Okay.
24:34>> A little a little better communication
24:36skills for sure.
24:38>> Yeah. And it's like uh going back to,
24:41you know, this this idea of like Christ
24:43being spit at and and slapped. Um I
24:46wrestle with my child. My my wife
24:48doesn't like that. Don't tell her. But,
24:49you know, I I wrestle with I'm very
24:51rough with him, you know? And there are
24:53days he gets so excited, right? Like he
24:55like, "Ah." And he slaps me and I'm
24:57like, "That hurts." But I still love
25:00this guy, right? He's he's a full-blown
25:03terrorist. I still love him. I love him.
25:06Right? And this is human human uh like
25:10reaction. This the same thing with God
25:12loved us so much. I mean we you know I
25:15really believe one of the reasons why
25:17God gave us the gift of kids is to say
25:22feel how much I love you. I really
25:24believe that. I believe this is his way
25:26of saying
25:27>> yes
25:28>> like I'm going to help you understand
25:31like 5% of how much I love you.
25:34>> Right. And by the way I have to make an
25:37announcement. You know forgive me. Um we
25:39are under threat. Okay. The church is
25:41under threat. um the the family is under
25:45threat. Um and uh in western societies,
25:48we're going through this new phase of I
25:51don't need a man, you know, I don't need
25:54a man. I could do it on my own or or uh
25:58being a bachelor. I'm good. You know
26:00what I'm saying? I'm going to do what I
26:01do, you know, be on my own. And we are
26:03under threat. This is the first the
26:06first thing the devil attacks. You go
26:08back in Genesis that what what did he
26:10do? I was just learning about this at
26:11the last Sunday. Um, you know, uh, he
26:14separated the man from the woman, right?
26:16And and and when the devil went to Eve,
26:19it's because they separated, right? It's
26:21the separation of family, attack the
26:23family. And it's so sad to me that um,
26:27our sisters, our brothers are are
26:29picking up this western ideologies and
26:32and concepts that sound good. They sound
26:34good, you know, ideas like feminism and
26:36and all these things where like they are
26:39sold as like great solutions to our
26:41problems. Look, there's no solution
26:43outside the church. Um the church is our
26:46life. It gives us everything that we
26:47need to know. And when we're outside of
26:49the the the framework is when we start
26:52losing. So that's what I think God has
26:55done. And in the trinity, this is what
26:57we learn is the importance of of of um
27:00being in communion, right? and and and
27:02and the relationship of the father, the
27:04son, and the holy spirit. And that is a
27:07model for how we ought to live in our
27:09life with our first circle
27:12relationship being within the family
27:15unit. The family unit is is is under
27:17attack is under attack.
27:20>> Absolutely agree with you. Yeah.
27:23>> Um there is this beautiful meaning
27:26behind toido word, right? there's a
27:29union between the divinity and humanity
27:32of Christ. And I was thinking how does
27:35that relate to theology of the body and
27:39theology of Christ um in um in Ethiopian
27:43church? And also what does it say about
27:47the union between the soul and the mind
27:51and the body of a a person in again in
27:55your theology?
27:57>> Yeah, I love that. So um uh a little
28:00history uh background is the the reason
28:03why so as as as you know terms come as
28:09you know when things happen when
28:12something happens uh there's a need for
28:15for uh terms like um we were all
28:19Christian and there is a need to be
28:21called orthodoxy because of Catholicism
28:25right um and then just like that we we
28:28were Orthodox and there was a need to be
28:31called Tawaho locally and what was
28:34happening is there was this concept of
28:35like who is Christ of course that's the
28:37million-dollar question that people have
28:40always tried to ask and and and whatever
28:43and and the issue is going away from
28:45what our forefathers have taught us. I
28:48can't emphasize that enough. By the way,
28:50um my my students always ask me, you
28:53know, what is orthodoxy? And I always
28:54tell them, orthodoxy is saying we refuse
28:56to change.
28:58>> Mhm.
28:58>> I don't care what the world is doing. I
28:59love technology, for example. I love
29:01>> I love that.
29:02>> You know, I'm on AI at night. I just say
29:04good night to AI, you know, like I miss
29:06you and all this. Like I love AI, okay?
29:09Like don't get me I I'm all into a
29:11technology. On Sunday morning, I leave
29:13it at the door. on Sunday morning, I'm
29:16walking to 2,000 years ago. I don't care
29:18about the philosophy you picked up at
29:20some book down the street. I don't care
29:23about whatever university class that
29:25you're teaching or you're learning and
29:26you think they're nice and great, you
29:29leave it at the door. Check it at the
29:30door. I don't care. Right? Um and
29:33whenever we start ex and we think we
29:36could outsmart God, that's the problem.
29:38We think we could outsmart him. And
29:40that's what happened when it comes to
29:41Christologology, isn't And over the
29:43years, people thought that they could
29:44outsmart what our forefathers, what the
29:47Bible said. And the same thing happened
29:49in Ethiopia. And there was this great
29:50debate about when did Christ get his
29:54divinity. And there was um three schools
29:56of thoughts. One of it was uh Christ was
30:00received his divinity from the Holy
30:03Spirit. So this was something that he
30:05received from the Holy Spirit. um be
30:09taking the word anointed Christ right
30:12they took it quite literally so when he
30:14was being anointed he was receiving his
30:16divine nature uh as if like there's this
30:19Christ
30:20>> person and then when Christ anointed
30:23this this Jesus right he was Christos
30:27anointed then he received his divinity
30:30um this was called kabat and then there
30:32was another teaching that said no no no
30:34no no Christ the person or Jesus
30:38received his divinity when he was
30:40baptized. That is the moment he received
30:43his divinity
30:44>> and um our forefathers said no no no no
30:47no this is an absolute union.
30:51>> Yeah.
30:51>> Right. Of two natures. The two things
30:54that don't mix right like
30:56>> uncontained with contained. The one who
30:59doesn't die with the one who dies. The
31:01one who is limited with the one who is
31:03not limited. having this one united
31:07nature in Christ and that is um kind of
31:10the teaching of of of Christ.
31:13This teaching also teaches us about us.
31:17>> Mhm.
31:18>> Which is that our body and our spirit
31:21and our soul is united. You see?
31:24>> Yeah.
31:24>> We are united one person. This is the
31:27problem of saying I can do whatever I
31:30want with my body and think that there
31:32is no consequence to my soul or my mind.
31:35Right? These these things are united in
31:38one. When I'm affecting or doing
31:41something to my body, that also means
31:43I'm I'm I'm affecting my soul. The
31:46reverse is true, isn't it? When I'm
31:48nurturing my soul and taking care of my
31:51soul, then uh my body also feels feels
31:54good. If you don't believe me, look at
31:56the the the the data. Um, people who
31:58believe in God live longer. [snorts]
32:01>> Mhm.
32:01>> People who have faith heal faster. Why
32:04is that? Um, you know, they're receiving
32:07the same med medication, they're getting
32:09the same treatment, but something is
32:11happening to the soul, isn't it? When we
32:13have faith, when when we really believe,
32:16um, you can't fake it, by the way.
32:18Sorry, atheists. You really have to
32:20believe, don't you? Right. So when you
32:22believe, you actually live longer. You
32:25feel better. Um, and we're seeing this
32:27connection between the soul and and and
32:29and the flesh, which also teaches us
32:32about our theology on how we we think
32:35about church. Church is not this thing
32:36that we do on Sunday. Christianity is
32:39not something we practice on Sunday.
32:41It's something we live throughout the
32:42day. It's the way that we live. we unite
32:45this this um teaching and and and
32:48practice that we do on Sunday which we
32:50think is only nurturing our soul but we
32:52bring it into the rest of the week uh
32:55while while we're catering to our flesh
32:57right like these things need to be
32:59united into one and all these concepts
33:02um we can learn from tawah
33:04>> yeah it's interesting do you think
33:08resurrection of the dead was um as one
33:12of the pillars of mystery
33:15was supposed to be this simple simply
33:18final event of Christian history
33:21but then you know the theologians
33:23thought about it and decided that no
33:25that deserves to be its own pillar of
33:30our faith that's too important to just
33:32make uh part of the story you know it
33:36has to be a separate pillar what do you
33:39think was like the reasoning behind it
33:42>> yeah great question so the First four
33:44pillars tell us what happened, right? Or
33:47what is um God is the father, son and
33:50holy spirit. This is what it is. Um and
33:53then incarnation says what happened.
33:55This God um from the the his in his
33:59unique uh person God the son became man
34:03past tense and he gave us salvation.
34:05This is also present tense isn't it? uh
34:07this is something ongoing and then we
34:10have the communion but but but holy
34:13resurrection is something different it
34:15says something is going to come
34:18>> you see it's not here yet
34:20>> it is something that is coming again um
34:23not to poke my Protestant brothers and
34:25sisters this is why we say salvation is
34:27not a point right it's a destination
34:29it's a process it's ongoing process um
34:32can you really be saved I always asked
34:35this by the way um [clears throat]
34:37again. Side comment. Uh,
34:40sorry, I'm going to get into apologetics
34:42a little bit. I do a lot of apologetics.
34:43>> That's fine. We're open for we're open
34:46to that.
34:46>> Oh, awesome. Awesome. All right. Good,
34:48good, good, good, good. So, you know, we
34:49talk about communion, right? And it's
34:51like, you're telling me that's really
34:53the blood and in and the flesh of
34:55Christ. Like, yeah, I really believe it.
34:57And they're like, really? You really
34:58believe me? Yeah. Yeah, I actually I
35:00actually do because it's in it's in the
35:02gospel. And then I say, "Um, tell me,
35:04[clears throat] do you think that the
35:05blood of Christ, the actual blood of
35:07Christ, the one that he actually bled,
35:10has salvation power?" And they're like,
35:12"Absolutely." And I'm like, "Okay, so
35:14the one that if he physically bled,
35:16right? Physically he bled. Do you think
35:18that has salvation power?" And they're
35:20like, "Absolutely he does." And I'm
35:21like,
35:23"And and can you be saved without being
35:25washed by his blood?" And they're like,
35:27"No, I've been washed by the blood of
35:28Christ." And they have like all these.
35:30I'm like, "When? When?
35:32Like I believe it. No, no, no, no. But
35:34but with the blood, I'm talking about
35:35with the blood of Christ. When have you
35:37been washed, right? I believe it. I So,
35:41so then you don't believe his physical
35:44blood can heal. You think it's some
35:45metaphorical thing, whatever. And what a
35:47shame. What a shame Christ had to endure
35:50all that stuff and believe for no reason
35:53>> cuz apparently you could just believe in
35:55it and like it'll go away, right? What a
35:57what a shame.
35:59>> What a shame, right? But we believe that
36:01blood from 2,000 years ago is real here
36:05today and is washing us through
36:06communion.
36:07>> Mhm.
36:07>> It it has to touch me. You see, it has
36:09to touch me.
36:10>> Yeah.
36:11>> Um so um uh when it comes to the the the
36:15resurrection, we're also it this is like
36:18a real concept like Christ is really
36:21coming back. But again, it is a process
36:24to say we cannot be saved unless we are
36:27with Christ, right? and and and and and
36:30to to claim like I'm fully saved and
36:32like whatever, but you're you're not
36:34with Christ, are you?
36:37You're not washed with the blood, but
36:38you're also not with Christ, are you?
36:40Right? So, we we we say, look, it's an
36:42ongoing process like uh we've been
36:44washed with the Christ has died for us,
36:47right?
36:47>> Uh we were saved. Um and and and we're
36:50being washed by the blood of Christ. We
36:52are being saved and there will be a day
36:54we going to be with Christ. We will be
36:56saved. So this is the salvation uh story
37:00not the salvation point. Um and and that
37:04is very important to understand. So the
37:06reason why it had to be a separate
37:07pillar is to say there is hope.
37:11>> There's a reason why we're doing this.
37:12There's a reason why we're doing this
37:13podcast. There's a reason why you're
37:15sitting here giving up your time. Right?
37:18There's a reason why we we go to church
37:20on Sunday mornings. Um it's because
37:23there is that hope that is coming. It is
37:25coming. that day will come and we look
37:27forward to it.
37:28>> Yeah.
37:29>> If you believe if you believe.
37:31>> Of [laughter] course. Of course. Yeah.
37:33It's interesting that you mentioned that
37:35the spilling of the actual blood of
37:38Christ, right? It there's no connection
37:43in Protestantism. There is really no
37:45physical connection with it. And it goes
37:47back to uh our conversation with um with
37:52several deacons. Actually we discussed
37:53that certain amount of nasticism that is
37:56present in Protestantism because it's
37:58all very up in the air spiritual
38:01metaphorical right so that blood that he
38:04spilled once now helps you through your
38:08faith but then there's again there's no
38:11physical connection to that blood right
38:13and and that is precisely what
38:16umnosticism is is pointing at that
38:20everything spiritual everything exist
38:24existential and everything that is
38:26really meaningful is spiritual versus
38:30physical world is just um it's just
38:32something you don't want to mess with
38:34like it's it's you know it's [snorts]
38:36it's not something that Christians
38:38should be engaging with versus orthodoxy
38:42is just so all apostolic churches right
38:45they're so focused on that spiritual and
38:48physical healing of the body and the
38:51soul
38:52Um and I think yeah it just you you you
38:56really put it beautifully in like one
38:59story of salvation. Um
39:01>> yeah and and I think that's that's the
39:04western world at work. So in order to
39:07understand Protestantism we have to
39:08understand modernity. Modernity is this
39:10concept that said you know we are
39:12changing and and how we do things in the
39:14west in Europe. And I always say
39:16Protestantism, you know, without getting
39:18into the morality of it or or whatever,
39:20it is a solution created to fix a
39:22European problem. We've got to
39:24understand this, right? And and Europe
39:26was going through this phase of like how
39:28do we structure our society? And they
39:30said, uh, we we're too community based.
39:33We need to be individualistic. So every
39:35person for themselves, if you work hard,
39:36you become rich. If you don't work, you
39:38become poor. It's about you, right? It
39:41is this tool that was created that
39:44entered into Protestantism.
39:46>> So in religion they said look look these
39:48Catholic you know guys are are saying
39:52like there's power and authority and all
39:54these things we don't like that let's
39:55make it individualistic so you have the
39:57power and then and then and then that
40:00transcended into we can point to small
40:04things and figure out exactly where
40:07things are. This is why in um America
40:11you have specializations of eyes, ears,
40:15mouth like you go to Africa, you ask for
40:19a doctor that I'm here, you know, like
40:21what do you do all of it, you know? They
40:24they're they're the holistic approach
40:26what we call the holistic approach,
40:28right? So, so, so, so, so, but, but in
40:31in in the west, it's very like we can
40:33pinpoint and like let's, you know, so
40:36they do that with with religion. Where
40:38is the salvation? Where is the thing?
40:40Just show me what I need to see. Like,
40:43no, no, it's it's faith. That's it.
40:45Alone, you see, alone, you see, so is is
40:49this con if you understand again how
40:52like the concepts work, then everything
40:55else starts to fit in, doesn't it? Um
40:57and again uh this individualistic idea
41:00uh Christ is my savior.
41:03>> What where is that in the Bible? I
41:06didn't read that in the Bible. The same
41:07folks solos scriptor Bible alone. Um he
41:10is my savior. Right. You go to a Bible
41:13study and people will say this is how I
41:16understand the scripture. You go to
41:18Orthodox church, how do they how do they
41:19do Bible study? This is what early
41:21church fathers have said. Right? So we
41:23are always in communion with the with
41:24with with the church. We are a community
41:27right in the in in the west is is this
41:30is how I get it.
41:32>> You do you.
41:33>> It's all about you. You take care of
41:36yourself. Don't give up and sacrifice
41:38for your family. Don't sacrifice for
41:40your kids. Take care of you. Be selfish.
41:44All western ideals by the way, right?
41:48What does the church tell us? No. You
41:50have to sacrifice. You have to give up.
41:52You do. You have to. you're part of a
41:55community, right? By the way, this is
41:56not just like a different of ideology.
41:58Again, look at the study. Uh those who
42:00are in um individualistic communities
42:02end up being um alone and and and of
42:06course that leads into into depression.
42:08So, we know it's a failed experiment.
42:10>> Um I just feel sorry for the younger
42:12kids not knowing um some of the things
42:14that they're getting themselves into.
42:17even families who are okay we're
42:19speaking about individualism on a
42:21personal level but there's also
42:23individualism on family level when
42:26nuclear family was invented right so
42:28even that is something that is very
42:30unnatural for our species like we don't
42:34we live in a community we live in
42:36villages right of people we have
42:38greatgrandparents grandparents living in
42:40the same household so that alone the
42:43isolation of modern families um can also
42:46contrib contribute to all kinds of um
42:49dissatisfaction
42:50and depression and loneliness. Um it's
42:55it's happening already. It's been
42:57happening I think for a [laughter]
42:58while. Dick, I wanted to ask you, we
43:01live in the world where everyone is
43:04expecting the answers right away at the
43:07same time that they're asking the
43:09question. How do you train people who
43:13live here, right, who are parishioners
43:15or people who are interested in
43:17Ethiopian orthodoxy in oriental
43:19orthodoxy? Um, how do you train them to
43:22really wait and be in the presence of
43:25the mystery without asking too many
43:27questions and or going too deep into
43:30this having this scholastic approach to
43:32things?
43:35>> Wow, what a beautiful question. Um, how
43:38do I how do I address that? It got worse
43:41with AI, didn't it? Um,
43:43>> and one one of the worst things that I
43:46think is happening right now is we have
43:51um this is going to sound so mean.
43:53Should I say it?
43:54>> Say it.
43:55>> Should I say it?
43:55>> Yes. [laughter]
43:57We have um a bunch of young folks who
44:02have their hand on
44:05uh early church fathers commentaries
44:09like the Bible and Greek and Hebrew and
44:14they're reading it.
44:15>> Why is that a bad thing? Well, it's not
44:18bad that they're they're they're reading
44:20this stuff, but they're not being
44:22guided. It's kind of like um like a
44:25doctor, right?
44:27>> Uh like when they do surgery, they go
44:29through years of training before they
44:32pick up the tools in order to perform
44:34surgery. And what I'm seeing nowadays is
44:39um especially for the youth, they're
44:42picking up all these tools,
44:45not exactly knowing
44:48how how to use it. They're making very
44:53positive theological
44:56like statements,
44:59>> right? Um, and this is true even with
45:02like 12, 13 year old kids. Um, and and
45:05and like if they pick up things on like
45:08let's say um like this kid was was
45:11debating with me about atheism, right?
45:13Um, and he read like I guess like a a
45:16book or something and he was putting
45:19everything in AI and saying see I
45:21believe in science and and stuff and
45:23it's like everything I'm saying like
45:25putting it through chat and it's like
45:29you know I have chat too right like it's
45:31like it's not about having it's not
45:34about and I have clots so haha
45:35[laughter] right so it's like that's not
45:37that's not the issue it's not about who
45:39has the AI bot it's about like are you
45:43trained to have these conversations
45:46right
45:47>> if you have a context context is so
45:50important
45:51>> there absolutely there's context
45:53>> and especially when you want to get into
45:56um like church tradition or or social
45:59issues like
46:02abortion
46:03or divorce or something like that I'm my
46:08take is always like you know we have to
46:10be empathetic I mean there's a lot of
46:12work to do here. By the way, we have to
46:14be very But when when you stand and you
46:17make declarations, I'll give you one.
46:20Um, so I'm I'm I'm I'm in a battle with
46:22feminists these days. So like all my
46:25examples are are feminist ideologies.
46:27Forgive me. [laughter] But um uh so you
46:30know, I was I was teaching about this
46:32and and somebody came to me and was
46:37like, you know, you can't say this and
46:39stuff and we started going back and
46:40forth. Um I think it was something about
46:43marriage or something. I don't remember.
46:45And then I started giving her John
46:46Chrisum's writings
46:49>> and I like I was like mic drop you know
46:53I'm done right and she responded back
46:55and she was like but you have to know
46:57that at their time um they didn't like
47:00value women and like feminism wasn't
47:03around there so they were misogynistic
47:05and stuff about John Chrisum. about John
47:08Chrysum. [snorts] I mean,
47:10>> John Chrysum is like the least the least
47:12misogynistic [laughter] person ever
47:14walked on this earth after Christ. Like
47:17there's just
47:19>> so it's like, you know, this she she
47:21went on to like lecture me about how
47:23like this um patriarch,
47:28you know, system patriarchy and like how
47:30like all this stuff and like it's it's
47:32like oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Right.
47:36Yeah. you are in the church. You're not
47:37outside. You're in the church, right?
47:40And and and it's like guys, like
47:45you need to be trained, right? Like to
47:47have these conversations
47:49and um like especially with me like my
47:52background is African studies, so I I
47:55have like even the humanities and stuff
47:57like that. So I've really learned about
47:58this like western perspectives and
48:00what's being, you know, injected in our
48:02society. So I can have these
48:04conversations in in a very um you know
48:08careful way but the the the young uh
48:11community I I fear I fear have gone one
48:15two step further. So I always say the
48:18issues with societies as a whole is we
48:22have one problem and whenever we want to
48:25fix that problem we overcorrect. So what
48:28was the problem that existed?
48:31There wasn't much room to ask questions,
48:33was there growing up?
48:36>> Not at all. Right? Like why do we
48:40right? Like you don't you don't know.
48:42Right? And then you know people started
48:44saying wait why why can't they ask?
48:46Right? Like the church has LIKE COME
48:48EVERYBODY ASK EVERYBODY ask right
48:50>> and then we overcorrected.
48:54So people are like, I'm not gonna take
48:57communion after that person and you
48:59know, I'm not what if the priest tells
49:02my sins and and I'm not gonna confess,
49:04you know, so it starts to be this thing
49:06of like I get to do whatever I want and
49:09and then we we we we overcorrect the
49:12situation. So I think it's time to
49:15>> um uh you know really scale it down. I
49:18remember in a panel um this one deacon
49:22stood up and he said my recommendation
49:25to kids is they stop reading church
49:27fathers and everybody was like
49:29[sighs and gasps]
49:29right and then he's like cuz you need to
49:32read the Bible first
49:34read the Bible.
49:36>> Yeah.
49:37[laughter] you know,
49:39so so so it's like this thing of like
49:43and and and and where he's getting at is
49:46like, you know, it's very much
49:47especially guys do this more than girls.
49:50I think um we are reading the church
49:52fathers not for life,
49:54>> not to be with Christ, but I could site
49:57all these church Ignatius said this and
49:59Ethanius said this and Beasel said this,
50:02right? So it's like we we have like
50:04these like languages and words and and
50:07things like that with no life to follow
50:10it,
50:11>> right?
50:11>> So So it's just an intellectual food
50:13basically without spirituality and like
50:17going deeper into the Yeah. the
50:19conversations.
50:20>> Yeah.
50:21>> Yeah. If if you're bored with with
50:24Psalms,
50:26if you're bored with Psalms,
50:29um, and instead you're picking up
50:30Ethanius, there's something wrong cuz
50:32Ethanius, Basil, uh, you know, John
50:35Croat, all these guys would like like,
50:39you know, they weren't bored with song.
50:41That's why they gave commentary, right?
50:43Like it's like they they lived it,
50:45right? So you you can't be you can't be
50:49um glossing over over things like that.
50:52>> Yeah. And St. John I think the first uh
50:55few years of his ministry like he
50:58devoted to just memorizing the
51:00scripture.
51:01>> So it always starts with the holy
51:04scripture. I don't know how you skip
51:06that part. like I'm I I guess I guess
51:09I'm lucky to um my first acquaintance
51:12with the faith was through this holy
51:15scripture. um well through art I would
51:19say first because uh so I grew up in a
51:22nonbelieving family
51:24and uh okay even my great grand great
51:27great grandparents and
51:28great-grandparents um never really
51:30taught me anything about faith
51:33>> and I think just seeing that but but I
51:36lived in a Christian country um in
51:38Armenia and in Russia Eastern Orthodox
51:40Orthodox country there were always um
51:44you know the the art around the churches
51:48around and the the um generally like the
51:51context of the history around it was
51:54always Christian the books that I was
51:56reading at school right the poems that I
51:59was memorizing there was the
52:00Christianity Orthodox Christianity was
52:02always present there so I think that's
52:04how I got like the glimpses of Christ in
52:07my life and that's how I learned to love
52:09him and I think I I always believed in
52:12Jesus since I was maybe five, six years
52:15old. I don't know how but I always
52:17believed it.
52:18>> But I think it was good that my first
52:21real introduction to the faith was
52:24through the holy scripture
52:27>> and then
52:28through church and then through the hol
52:31the fathers. Um, I was lucky enough to
52:35to really
52:38meet priests that were guiding us very
52:40well in our pursuits of holiness.
52:43[laughter]
52:44So, yeah. Um, but I I I can see I can
52:48see why
52:49>> um, you know, knowing the fathers can be
52:52more appealing to the modern generation
52:54than actually reading the Bible. Um,
52:56because
52:57>> right
52:58>> you so and and the Protestant Christians
53:00do this the other way. They only study
53:03the scripture to memorize certain verses
53:06to just like,
53:08>> you know, always have like a good quote
53:09to throw in there. And I think I think
53:12Orthodox do the same with the fathers.
53:14They just memorize like cool sounding
53:17[laughter]
53:17um quotes and they just want to, you
53:20know, show like that they know, as you
53:22said, St. Aenatius or St. Basil. Um
53:25>> just to but it's but it's all very um
53:29surface level. So um yeah it's I I
53:34completely agree absolutely agree with
53:36you that there is there's a depth
53:38missing very often um because there's no
53:42system at place and the system the
53:45church provides the system. There's no
53:47way around it. your your spiritual
53:50father, um the deacons at your church,
53:53your bishop, archbishop. These are the
53:56people who are providing that system
53:58that the person thrives, the faith of a
54:01person thrives in.
54:04Um I wanted to speak to you about the
54:07Ethiopian Bible as well. So there's a
54:09lot of advertisement if you see if you
54:12watch YouTube [laughter]
54:15the the one and the only true uh Bible
54:20that is Ethiopian Bible with um was it
54:2380 81 book of
54:25>> it says 88 uh
54:27>> 88 books
54:29>> really
54:30>> but we we we believe in 81 by
54:33>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they say 88. Yes.
54:35Yes. Yes. I saw those videos. Um, so of
54:38course there's a lot of controversy
54:40there because they're, you know, they're
54:42saying about that the books that were
54:45intentionally excluded from the Bibles
54:49in the west or like even in other
54:51oriental orthodox churches, right? Um,
54:53in order to remove the secret knowledge
54:56that um is making the faith complete,
54:59right? So what what is there a what is
55:04truth here? what is false here and what
55:07is a you know a nuance um you know
55:11>> yeah so um first of all please do not
55:13buy that book um [laughter]
55:16anybody watching this uh we have nothing
55:18to do with it we don't know this book we
55:20don't know where it came from more
55:22importantly it is a lie this was not
55:24translated from guys uh so my profession
55:26is Ethiopic studies scholars together we
55:29have banded together and we've made
55:31statements uh that this is false
55:33advertising
55:34and and it's completely like it's wrong.
55:39Second thing is there's this like hype
55:41you said about like Ethiopian Bible and
55:43I cannot tell you the number of phone
55:45calls I get of people saying where can I
55:48find the Ethiopian Bible and I say uh
55:50just download it on Google um just go to
55:53bible.com cuz when you read Genesis is
55:55Genesis
55:56>> when you read Exodus is Exodus and and
55:59this is not like a different story right
56:02like the Bible is the Bible please
56:04understand this
56:05>> um where the conversation begins is the
56:07number of books within the Bible.
56:09>> Yeah.
56:09>> So where does this idea come about of
56:12excluding not excluding secret knowledge
56:15or something like that?
56:16>> Basically comes down to canon again we
56:19have to go and understand
56:22that there's like this western world by
56:25the way Christianity didn't start in the
56:27west. Okay.
56:29>> Controvers very controversial [laughter]
56:32topic.
56:34>> Okay. But but they felt like their own
56:37Christianity. But a lot of things were
56:39happening in the west that prompted
56:42conversations,
56:44discussions to canonize the Bible in the
56:47form that we know it today, which is the
56:4966 books. Okay. So that's what happened.
56:53Um but that happened in the west. In
56:56Ethiopia, uh there were different things
56:59happening. Least of all was this concept
57:02of like, you know, um strict closed
57:06Bible cannon. There was this tradition
57:08that was kind of accepted. Take the book
57:10of Enoch for example. If you go into
57:12history, you'll see that Jews were very
57:15much reading and accepting the the the
57:18book of Enoch alongside of other books.
57:21as we see in the book of Jude, it's
57:23referenced. Um, of course, when it comes
57:26to the Old Testament, which is part of
57:29where um these uh different uh numbering
57:33systems come from, um the Protestant uh
57:37applies to the Jewish cannon. Um the
57:40Jewish cannon basically has uh I believe
57:44it's is three criterias for what counts
57:48as um uh uh what is it holy texts or or
57:54inspired texts. Um number one they had
57:57to be written between the age of Moses
58:00to Daniel.
58:02>> Anything before Moses Enoch is out and
58:05anything after Daniel um it's it's out.
58:09It had to be written in Hebrew. Mcabes
58:11is out. It's written in Greek. Um, and
58:14it had to be about God. So the book of
58:17Astair, for example, uh, does not have
58:19the word God in it. So there was a big
58:21debate that we do we included, but it
58:24was about Jewish customs and rules. So
58:26included as being inspired. Um,
58:30then you know, New Testament Christians
58:34said,
58:36"But those are the Jews." I'm like those
58:39those guys were the Jews. What we know
58:41is that Paul read from the Septtoigent.
58:45Um so there's no reason why Greek
58:48writings can't be used. Um we also know
58:52that you know they were reading
58:54alongside Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus,
58:57Numbers, Deuteronomy, books like Enoch.
58:59So we included it in our tradition. So
59:02that's kind of where it comes from. And
59:04then of course there's a little bit more
59:05of like boasting. Well, we have more
59:07than you cuz you forgot the rest and all
59:09these things. But in reality, if we if
59:11we are just going to kind of come down a
59:14and and talk about biblical cannon, this
59:16is why it's important to understand what
59:18tradition is. It is a local concept that
59:21whatever is happening locally, you
59:23respond to it. Um there's uh this book,
59:26I forgot where it was written. It says,
59:27"Thou shalt not eat alligators."
59:31Why is that rule there? Cuz people were
59:33eating alligators, right?
59:35>> [laughter]
59:35>> So, so, so, so, so if you don't, if
59:37you're, if you don't have, if you don't
59:39even know what an alligator is, you're
59:41not going to have that that rule. So,
59:42there's a reason why that, you know, the
59:45Protestants made that that cannon the
59:48way that they did, fine. Great for them.
59:50We just didn't have those issues. We
59:52were dealing with other other things.
59:55So, that's that's kind of how we came to
59:57be.
59:58>> Yeah. and Armenian cannon, you know, it
1:00:00includes the Mcabes and uh it it doesn't
1:00:03include the Enoch, the book of Enoch.
1:00:06And I was always curious about it to be
1:00:08honest. I haven't read it. I I I am
1:00:11really looking forward to reading it.
1:00:13But what is um something so special
1:00:16about the book of Enoch that it's always
1:00:19there's always controversy around it?
1:00:21What would you say was the mo the most
1:00:24um hyped [laughter] thing from that
1:00:27book?
1:00:28Yeah. So for for for Ethiopians, why
1:00:31it's so important is the fullest um uh
1:00:35the fullest kind of intact book of Enoch
1:00:38or the earliest evidence is is an
1:00:40Ethiopic. Um and for the longest time
1:00:43they just thought it was this, you know,
1:00:47not necessary book and nobody was really
1:00:49reading it. But the Dead Sea Scrolls
1:00:51were uh inside the Dead Sea Scrolls,
1:00:53they found um fragments of of the book
1:00:56of Enoch as well, which showed okay well
1:00:59this thing is important. So
1:01:01>> the fact that the Ethiopians had it is
1:01:03not that far off. It's not that that
1:01:05crazy, right? Like it's not.
1:01:07>> But then so the the book push back is
1:01:10[snorts] um scholarship tells us that
1:01:12Enoch could not have written it because
1:01:14it's from a later tradition. scholarship
1:01:17tells us that um the content of of Enoch
1:01:21is very like you know the like
1:01:26big you know characters and like you
1:01:29know like figures that doesn't seem like
1:01:32realistic and stuff like that. But my
1:01:35push back has always been,
1:01:37give me all the list of the reasons why
1:01:39you don't um accept Enoch, and let's
1:01:42apply it to Daniel,
1:01:44>> the book of Daniel, and let's see if
1:01:47Daniel rises up to that challenge. We
1:01:51know Daniel didn't write it according to
1:01:52scholarship.
1:01:54>> Yeah.
1:01:54>> Uh we know that Daniel has a lot of like
1:01:56figures and characters and things like
1:01:58that that's like majestic and things
1:02:00like that. So, so, so it's like whatever
1:02:03you argue about, Enoch, I'm like, well,
1:02:05I'm rubber your glue. Whatever you say
1:02:07stick sticks back to you. So, so it's
1:02:11ultimately about how seriously do we
1:02:14deal with tradition.
1:02:15>> Um, and [clears throat]
1:02:17and that's that's kind of where I'm at
1:02:20is, you know, tradition is there and we
1:02:22look at it, right? And and we all have
1:02:25our tradition. um especially for you
1:02:28know the Ethiopian listeners I say why
1:02:31why do we give up ours so it's it's
1:02:34always interesting and and also like
1:02:36non-Christians tend to to do this a lot
1:02:38where um that they they uh they will
1:02:42push back on like scientific ideas on on
1:02:45Bible or something like that we're like
1:02:47well we we just trust the Bible we trust
1:02:49the Christian tradition and and there's
1:02:52certain things that you you you trust
1:02:54over whatever the world tells you and
1:02:56It's kind of like our our tradition and
1:02:58we hold on to it as well.
1:03:00>> Okay. I see. Um I really wanted to speak
1:03:04to you also about the Kenna poetry that
1:03:07I just fascinates me that concept of wax
1:03:11and gold having the surface meaning of
1:03:14the even the interpretation of the
1:03:17scripture right the the one meaning and
1:03:19then the the deeper meaning behind it.
1:03:22Could you uh in simple words describe
1:03:25that concept of wax and gold and um how
1:03:29it is applied to uh generally into
1:03:31interpretation of the holy scripture in
1:03:33Ethiopian [clears throat] orthodoxy.
1:03:36>> Yeah. So um it's parables, right? Um and
1:03:39and and Christ talked in parables. Uh
1:03:42but what the Ethiopian tradition does is
1:03:46um I heard this one priest saying this
1:03:50and that's really what got me interested
1:03:52to learn is he said uh uh any or this
1:03:57wax and gold concept is the key to the
1:03:59church. If you want to understand the
1:04:01church, you've got to know this. He said
1:04:04uh if you do not know K um you can uh
1:04:08talk uh you could be a believer. You can
1:04:12be a believer but if if you but but you
1:04:15cannot make other people believe
1:04:18>> right like if you do not know K if you
1:04:21do not know like if you don't have this
1:04:23key you can believe but you can't really
1:04:26be somebody who make other people
1:04:28believe cuz you need the key in order to
1:04:30get people in. You see?
1:04:32>> So you cannot preach your faith. You can
1:04:34still have
1:04:34>> you can't preach. That's what he's
1:04:36trying to say.
1:04:37>> Yeah. you can't you can't be a teacher
1:04:39because it gives you this window and
1:04:41it's true. It opens up your mind.
1:04:44>> Um
1:04:46and and the the literal idea is when
1:04:49people start doing k uh you're in a
1:04:52different state of mind like you're
1:04:54you're uh we call it kot which is like
1:04:58literally meaning like we're counting uh
1:05:00but you you're in a different mind like
1:05:02you just don't know your surrounding.
1:05:05And it's because uh it comes from the
1:05:07word ana which means to to to be submit
1:05:10to. You're submitting your body, your
1:05:13mind, your soul to this thing in order
1:05:15to make um uh you know something kind of
1:05:18last. So um it's it's more beautiful and
1:05:22giz, but I I remember I made one in
1:05:25English and I only have one in English,
1:05:27you know, to to to give an idea. And and
1:05:31um so it goes something like this. Um,
1:05:36what should we do with the injustice
1:05:39that we see? Justice should fix it as it
1:05:42should be.
1:05:44What should we do with the injustice
1:05:47that we see? Justice should fix it as it
1:05:51should be. So, uh, the idea is, uh, wax
1:05:56and gold is the wax is the first thing
1:05:58that you see. Um, which is like, you
1:06:00know, the first story that you tell.
1:06:02Mhm.
1:06:03>> Um and it is okay. If there's injustice
1:06:06around the world, the only thing that
1:06:08can fix it is is is justice.
1:06:10>> Uh but gold is something you got to work
1:06:12for a little bit harder, right? Like you
1:06:15you got to find it and you got to think
1:06:16about it. And that's why I love kind of
1:06:18it makes you think and that process
1:06:20opens up your mind and and make you dig
1:06:23through the Bible even more. Um so if
1:06:26you dig in this this poetry um it's it's
1:06:30it's a word play on on justice right
1:06:33it's just us
1:06:35>> just us
1:06:36>> can fix it as it should be so there's
1:06:39injustice in the world and the only
1:06:41thing that can fix it is just us right
1:06:44we can we are the only ones that can fix
1:06:47it so now I'm telling two stories at
1:06:48once aren't I so I'm saying um justice
1:06:52the solution to injustice is justice
1:06:55But the solution to injustice is just
1:06:58us. So we have to work together.
1:07:00>> And that's like the gold that you have
1:07:01to kind of dig in deep. So the same
1:07:04thing when you're reading the Bible, you
1:07:06dig in deep and say, "Okay, what was
1:07:07Christ saying here? What what is the
1:07:09meaning of this?" Right? And it allows
1:07:12you to see the Bible from different
1:07:13angles.
1:07:15>> So interesting. Can I offer a third
1:07:18meaning here? [laughter]
1:07:20The only thing we can
1:07:21>> Please by by the way, this is the beauty
1:07:23of We say uh mystery like you know how
1:07:27water boils you say that the mystery
1:07:29also boils you know when one says that
1:07:32one and then another drop. So absolutely
1:07:35absolutely so you you could keep
1:07:37continuing. Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:38>> Yeah. It's just when you said just us,
1:07:41my first instinct was like that's the
1:07:43only thing we can actually fix because
1:07:45if we fix us,
1:07:48>> we are able to find solutions for other
1:07:50people. But unless we fix us, we can't
1:07:54really do anything with the
1:07:56>> I love it. Yeah, that's what I was
1:07:58thinking in the beginning. That was
1:07:59that's what I was thinking in the
1:08:01beginning. There's um there's a Russian
1:08:03saint um um Saraphim of Sorov who said
1:08:07that um [clears throat] obtain the peace
1:08:10within you and thousands will be saved
1:08:12around you. Um
1:08:17yeah I think I translated it quite
1:08:19correctly. I don't know but [laughter]
1:08:21but yeah the idea behind it is that when
1:08:24you obtain the Holy Spirit the spirit of
1:08:27peace then people see that and they will
1:08:30follow. So you don't necessarily have to
1:08:32just chase uh you know other people
1:08:36trying to fix them. It's it's you who
1:08:39needs to be fixed first.
1:08:41>> Um so yeah I thought like just us you
1:08:44know work on yourself first.
1:08:46>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I
1:08:48like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:08:50>> Yes. [laughter] probably that's that's
1:08:53the goal of kin po poetry right is to
1:08:55>> it is it's to make you think isn't it to
1:08:58make you think
1:08:59>> the oral interpretation of the scripture
1:09:02right that was
1:09:04the teacher's interpretation that was
1:09:06passed down to the student and so on so
1:09:09forth um nowadays it's either written in
1:09:14text or it's passed down through YouTube
1:09:17videos so what do you think is missing
1:09:20in this current way of passing down that
1:09:24knowledge of interpretation
1:09:27and the theology and you know biblical
1:09:30commentary.
1:09:33>> Yeah. Um a lot of the times uh like I
1:09:37said you know my background is African
1:09:38studies
1:09:40>> and we emphasize this idea of oral
1:09:42tradition
1:09:43>> um o r a l but there's also an oral
1:09:48tradition which is a u r a l auditory
1:09:51um and it is this concept of saying that
1:09:55um some things were meant to be heard
1:10:01not read.
1:10:02Okay. And we find this in the Bible as
1:10:04well, right? There's uh several places
1:10:06where Paul says, "I don't want to I
1:10:08think it's even in uh what is it? First
1:10:10or 2 John or something." He says, "I
1:10:13don't want to write this down. I'll come
1:10:14and tell you in person." Right?
1:10:17>> Um so, um why does that matter? Well,
1:10:21well, because when you're talking and
1:10:24you're listening,
1:10:26my words will be different than if I'm
1:10:28writing. Writing is different than than
1:10:31listening. Um, so and I think we're
1:10:34we're missing that concept, right?
1:10:37Because if I'm trying to get your
1:10:39attention in order to kind of grasp it
1:10:42and the way that I'm talking will be
1:10:43different than if I'm writing things
1:10:45down,
1:10:46>> some of this what was meant to be
1:10:49auditory has been written down and
1:10:52people kind of I think get stuck in the
1:10:55details we're having in conversation.
1:10:58Imagine if people wrote down what we
1:11:02said and then studied it and and and and
1:11:07had debates about what we meant. Um I
1:11:11bring this up because
1:11:14um who was it that said uh theology is
1:11:16not for everybody? I think St. Gregory
1:11:18or or something. Um uh it's not it's not
1:11:22for everybody. And and
1:11:25the theolog I have to be careful here,
1:11:27but the theological debates miss the
1:11:30points a lot a lot in commentaries
1:11:35particularly. Um sometimes even in
1:11:38traditions, right? Like we have like
1:11:40conversations about like your tradition,
1:11:42my tradition, how we view the world. And
1:11:46um as long as we're not talking about
1:11:47Christ, don't get me wrong. We're not
1:11:49talking about like these core beliefs of
1:11:51like you know what it means to have
1:11:52salvation. There's certain things in the
1:11:54details where it is we expect it to be
1:11:58identical. If you don't have my school
1:12:00of thought on this concept then
1:12:04something's wrong. There's like these
1:12:07you know debates. And my thing is um
1:12:10first of all and
1:12:13what we we say commentary uh comes from
1:12:15the word and which literally means one
1:12:20right in one way. And the idea was after
1:12:23every single you know verse or something
1:12:25like that is to say and or in one way
1:12:30you know Basil said this
1:12:33but and another
1:12:37St. Athanius
1:12:39said this,
1:12:41>> John Chrisum said this,
1:12:43>> right? And so and so said this. That's
1:12:45what commentaries are for. If you
1:12:47actually read and the commentaries, I
1:12:50would say some people say this, some
1:12:52people say this, but they're both saying
1:12:53the same thing. All right? Some people
1:12:57may see it this way and some people see
1:12:58it this way, but really they're saying
1:13:00the same thing, right? So, it's it's
1:13:03this idea that we're really stuck on the
1:13:05details and we're missing the concept of
1:13:08of of it's what we said earlier. um if
1:13:11we get stuck in this like um
1:13:13intellectual debate
1:13:15>> um we can have it like I love
1:13:17intellectual debate but like you've got
1:13:19to kind of go further than that and say
1:13:22again as long as we're not touching the
1:13:24core belief the elements of the faith of
1:13:26of Christ and please don't get me wrong
1:13:28I'm not saying we you know we we sit
1:13:30with Muslims and say well okay well what
1:13:32can we really see in the middle like we
1:13:34know no no no Christ is Lord okay like
1:13:36there's no debate right but there but
1:13:38there are certain things that I think we
1:13:40could say okay you see it from that
1:13:42angle I see it from this angle right and
1:13:44and I think that's what the commentaries
1:13:46really provide because it is an oral
1:13:49tradition because these are meant to be
1:13:51like okay look at it this way right
1:13:53they're meant to supplant our
1:13:55understanding of the gospel who's about
1:13:57Christ who's about unity who's about
1:13:59love and I think we forget that we
1:14:02forget that a lot
1:14:05>> but how would you argue with Protestants
1:14:07who would say oh Well, this is the same
1:14:10as we do. We're just, you know,
1:14:12personally in interpreting the
1:14:14scripture, right? That's what the your
1:14:17oral tradition is. It's basically a
1:14:19personal interpretation passed down to
1:14:22from teacher to a student. How how would
1:14:25you argue that it's not the same?
1:14:27>> Excellent question. So, so we do not
1:14:29believe that the only infallible
1:14:31teaching is is the Bible. That's what
1:14:34the Protestants say, right? So we say u
1:14:37the church is also infallible which by
1:14:39the way I I just I don't understand the
1:14:41position of the Protestants because um
1:14:44if they're in a church that's fallible
1:14:47why don't they come on over right cuz
1:14:50our church is infallible.
1:14:52>> Um but what do we mean by the church?
1:14:54It's not this idea. It's this concept of
1:14:55like there's a body of of teaching. Mhm.
1:14:58>> So um what we say is is an absolute like
1:15:02what we hold on to be true is consensus
1:15:06on um teachings uh things that have
1:15:10always been true trinity. Uh somebody
1:15:12cannot say there's a fourth member in
1:15:15the trinity right um it's not like okay
1:15:18well that's how you see it from your
1:15:19angle. Uh and that's why I said like
1:15:22there are core beliefs that our
1:15:24forefathers have kind of set in stone in
1:15:26stone and said hey this is what we
1:15:28believe but but then there are um other
1:15:31things uh we you know I was talking
1:15:34about this earlier uh for example
1:15:36Matthew and Mark may present um you know
1:15:40certain details about the crucifixion
1:15:42from a different angle. It doesn't mean
1:15:44one is like battling another or you know
1:15:47anything like that. So I see I see it
1:15:50the same way. It's it's okay. Well, this
1:15:52father may have said this because he
1:15:54was, you know, recognizing or or or
1:15:57underlining or underscoring this point,
1:16:00whereas this father may have been
1:16:02looking at it from this perspective. I
1:16:04think that's a healthier way to look
1:16:05instead of um this my way is right than
1:16:09yours.
1:16:10>> Yeah. And sometimes they provide
1:16:12different historical
1:16:14context. you know, I I I'm reading the
1:16:17commentary on the book of Acts by Father
1:16:20Tados Maladi and um he's bringing so
1:16:23he's he's
1:16:24>> you know, for instance, the argument is
1:16:26about who was um what kind of person,
1:16:29right? What kind of life had um the
1:16:33Herod Antipa, right, for instance, um or
1:16:36his his nephew, right? And he's he's
1:16:38writing, "Oh, well, he had the sources
1:16:41that confirmed that he was this type of
1:16:43person." And then um St. Augustine says
1:16:47a completely different thing that he was
1:16:49actually not related to this king and he
1:16:52was um you know brought up in this
1:16:54palace versus this palace. So um the
1:16:57historical context might sometimes might
1:16:59vary in different fathers of the church
1:17:02um probably because they had provide
1:17:05that context. So it's it's it might be
1:17:07the human mistake too sometimes, right?
1:17:11I mean we're not saying that everything
1:17:13that saints wrote is infallible
1:17:15[laughter] like we they're human.
1:17:17>> No, we absolutely we we absolutely say
1:17:20they were fallible. This is important,
1:17:21right? Like early [laughter] church
1:17:23fathers were fallible. What is
1:17:25infallible is their consensus and their
1:17:28teachings and their ideas that they
1:17:30brought down. But individually they're
1:17:32and I'm so glad you brought this up
1:17:34because a lot of people say well St.
1:17:37Basil said this and I'm like but is this
1:17:39a common thread
1:17:41>> that we find like globally among church
1:17:45fathers right so a oneoff or or or
1:17:50something is not
1:17:51>> the same thing as being infallible.
1:17:53Sorry I cut you off. Yeah. No, no, no. I
1:17:55absolutely agree. Even in interpretation
1:17:57of the events of the book of acts or or
1:18:00even the gospels, you know, they are,
1:18:04you know, the whole different fathers
1:18:06could have different interpretations of
1:18:08the same event. Um it it doesn't make
1:18:12one of them wrong, the other right, you
1:18:14know. So, it's it's important for us to
1:18:16understand that um sometimes they can
1:18:19contradict each other. Again, start with
1:18:22the Bible, right? The fathers come come
1:18:25second.
1:18:26>> But again, remember that the fathers
1:18:28could also argue with each other. There
1:18:29were fathers of the same church. There
1:18:32were brothers, right? Like Capidoshian
1:18:35fathers. [snorts]
1:18:37>> Um the two of the Capidoshian fathers
1:18:39and um there were the ones who were not
1:18:43enemies but disliked each other quite
1:18:45[laughter]
1:18:46quite
1:18:48>> like quite obviously disliked each
1:18:50other. So, so yeah, it's um it's a whole
1:18:55different world to study and explore the
1:19:00relationship between the early church
1:19:01fathers.
1:19:03>> I wanted to speak uh with you about your
1:19:05book hopeless romantic. Um, first of
1:19:09all, why would you give a name of
1:19:12hopeless romantic to the book about
1:19:14serious, you know, historical um,
1:19:18evidence of the Ethiopian church and
1:19:21Ethiopian history, right? Um, why that
1:19:24name? Yes. Just curious.
1:19:26>> Yeah. Um, so the subtitle being the
1:19:29untold history of Ethiopia. Um, and uh,
1:19:34so I'm using hopeless to mean in kind of
1:19:38a colloquial way of of being a romantic.
1:19:41I'm hopeless romantic. Right? That's
1:19:43that's what you say when you're like,
1:19:45I'm I'm like if if there's a guy who's
1:19:49like, I'm I'm waiting for this perfect
1:19:50girl. She's going to come, right? Like
1:19:53like that person is is often referred to
1:19:56as like a hopeless romantic. And uh even
1:19:59if like people think like he's crazy
1:20:02like uh the the the girl that you're
1:20:04thinking of doesn't exist, right? But
1:20:07like no, I I believe she exists, right?
1:20:10So I wrote it at a time where you know
1:20:12there's a lot of tumultuous events
1:20:14happening in in Ethiopia. But I was also
1:20:17in a grad school
1:20:19>> straight out of the monastery. And um I
1:20:23was shocked to find and in the west at
1:20:26the Catholic University of America in DC
1:20:29um people were learning Ethiopic
1:20:34>> uh Americans and
1:20:37I was sitting there learning what I
1:20:40learned in the monastery but now in
1:20:44in the West like you know from Americans
1:20:47that didn't look like me. I loved it. I
1:20:50thought it was the best thing ever cuz
1:20:51like my homework assignments was to read
1:20:53my tradition like to read my books and
1:20:55all like this is this is great stuff.
1:20:57you telling me I got to read for
1:20:59homework like uh you know the Bible and
1:21:02good is like this is just amazing stuff
1:21:04right then I started reading the
1:21:06scholarship and I couldn't help but
1:21:08notice that you know most of the things
1:21:09were written by Italian scholars
1:21:13>> um and I said huh weren't didn't Italy
1:21:17do something to Ethiopia around the
1:21:181930s like you know that's interesting
1:21:21and most of them were published in the
1:21:241930s so I said huh right and and I
1:21:28really started kind of uh looking
1:21:30through it and one text that really
1:21:33bothered me was it said the Ethiopian
1:21:35faith is barbaric, uncritical and
1:21:38superstitious
1:21:39and this was one of my greetings for
1:21:42class and I approached my professor and
1:21:46said
1:21:46>> so sorry to interrupt you um these are
1:21:49fascist scholars right did I understand
1:21:52that correct yeah
1:21:53>> I didn't know that at the at the time
1:21:55>> yeah I'm like this innocent kid like you
1:21:57know like huh they're they happen to
1:21:59have Italian names and all this stuff
1:22:02but you know when I finally discovered
1:22:05that um you know is unc uncritical
1:22:09superstitious wow like that's my and
1:22:11this is like reading I'm receiving in
1:22:14classrooms
1:22:15>> so I went to my professor and then I
1:22:17said hey you know um are we are we not
1:22:20going to talk about this like this is
1:22:22this is problematic
1:22:23>> and it's important that you know even
1:22:26the other students recognize who these
1:22:28people are. And I started investigating
1:22:30and some of um that that particular guy
1:22:32that wrote that article uh was very much
1:22:35blatant. Um we need to study the history
1:22:38of Ethiopia so we could colonize it.
1:22:40Others that wrote uh were war criminals
1:22:43who uh were living in Ethiopia that
1:22:46helped the fascists come into Ethiopia
1:22:48um saw massacres happening, did
1:22:51absolutely nothing. They were tried on
1:22:53the UN as a war criminal. Um, and these
1:22:55are kind of like the people who wrote
1:22:57the history. It's tantamount to reading
1:23:00um, you know, white masters journal
1:23:03notes on what they thought about slavery
1:23:06and then giving those notes to black
1:23:07people and saying, "Read about your
1:23:09history, right?
1:23:11>> There's something fundamentally
1:23:12different or something weird." So I
1:23:15started talking about it and I and I I
1:23:18made a presentation um and essentially
1:23:22um the Ethiopic community uh who is very
1:23:25much active in Germany and and in Europe
1:23:29um blacklisted me and they said uh don't
1:23:33work with this guy uh don't talk to him,
1:23:36don't engage with him and I thought you
1:23:39know uh the the the saddest thing of all
1:23:42was I was making a presentation at a
1:23:45university and the leading scholar in
1:23:48Ethiopics field like the the top dog was
1:23:52there trying to, you know, attack me and
1:23:55and and like I was like a graduate
1:23:56student, you know what I mean? It's kind
1:23:58of like you're fighting with a
1:23:595-year-old kid, you know, and it's like,
1:24:01but that showed me I was on to
1:24:02something. You wouldn't do that if I
1:24:04didn't have anything.
1:24:06>> You wouldn't do that if I if if I if if
1:24:08I didn't have something in my hand, you
1:24:11wouldn't throw those perks at me.
1:24:14Um and and I was I was angry. Um and I
1:24:18left I left the the the UN I was a first
1:24:21year PhD student and I left um and I
1:24:24entered Howard University. I never
1:24:26thought
1:24:28H.B.CU was was for me and I just I'm not
1:24:31that guy, you know.
1:24:33>> Uh but Howard was the best thing that
1:24:37ever happened to me. I suggest everybody
1:24:39goes there. And what I did at Howard
1:24:41that I use in my ministry is um it gave
1:24:47me a new lens at looking at the world,
1:24:51right? This framework of how I see the
1:24:54world, what we call epistemology,
1:24:56>> what we we we how we know what we know.
1:25:00And um what I did was African studies.
1:25:02So we learned that Africa has a
1:25:04different way of doing things. and it
1:25:06started clicking to me. This also
1:25:08applies for Orthodox church. It applies
1:25:10to Christianity. There's a different way
1:25:14of how we do things.
1:25:16>> And then you know when you grow up in
1:25:18the west um you think that there's only
1:25:20one way to do things and that becomes
1:25:22the standard
1:25:23>> right it becomes the standard for how we
1:25:25we see the world. Um what we call about
1:25:28euroentric approach of history. Euro
1:25:31Europe is at the center and this is how
1:25:33they see the world. M
1:25:35>> what Africa studies does interestingly
1:25:37is they offer afroentric approach which
1:25:39is we'll see the world from the African
1:25:42perspective
1:25:44>> you know not that we need to be the same
1:25:48I thought that's what we were going to
1:25:49learn I thought I had this view that if
1:25:52euroentric is wrong then we we need like
1:25:56a system where it's fair like in the
1:25:58middle where we all see the world from
1:26:00the same but we can't do that we can't
1:26:04see the world from the same perspective,
1:26:07right? It's kind of like I have I have,
1:26:09you know, a son close to 2 years old and
1:26:12there's me. If we're standing close, you
1:26:14know, side by side, I have to look down
1:26:17at him. He has to look up at me, right?
1:26:20>> And who's wrong? None of us, right? Um,
1:26:24but what would be wrong is to say we all
1:26:26have to see from like a certain angle.
1:26:29We can't do that.
1:26:31We have to admit that as an African
1:26:35studies as Africans and orthodoxy as
1:26:38orthodox there is a way we see the world
1:26:41and we are unapologetic about that.
1:26:44>> Mhm.
1:26:45>> Yeah.
1:26:45>> Do you see we are unapologetic about how
1:26:48we view understand the world. So um
1:26:52hopeless romantic was written before I
1:26:54finished Howard University. uh there's a
1:26:56lot of concepts in there where I didn't
1:26:58if I wrote the book now it would be
1:27:00quite different cuz now I have my PhD
1:27:02but you know back then I try I said
1:27:04there's there's different things here
1:27:07and how we understand uh the history is
1:27:10is interesting and a lot of the things I
1:27:11talk about the Ethiopian church
1:27:13Ethiopian history applies to orthodoxy
1:27:15as well orthodoxy is hijacked and our
1:27:17story is being told by um by others of
1:27:22what orthodoxy is unless we're at the
1:27:24forefront and we our own history,
1:27:26>> our own story, and people would do it
1:27:28for us. And that's why I think it's
1:27:30important.
1:27:32>> We were saying at the very beginning
1:27:34before this interview began, it's time
1:27:36that we come together. We Orthodox
1:27:37brothers and sisters, we start having
1:27:39conversations, especially now that we
1:27:41live in America. We got to figure out
1:27:43how are we going to, you know, move the
1:27:45next chapter for our young kids. Um, you
1:27:49know, they're going to start marrying
1:27:51each other, having kids with each other,
1:27:52right? things are going to start
1:27:54flowing. Uh this this is going to happen
1:27:57and we need to kind of sit down and and
1:27:59figure out how we're going to have a
1:28:02conversation. It's time it's time we do
1:28:04that.
1:28:05>> Yeah.
1:28:05>> Yeah. And I love how you advocate for
1:28:08translation, you know, translating the
1:28:11texts that are original and geese or or
1:28:14you know, ancient classical Armenian and
1:28:16translating it to modern language so
1:28:18people can um you know, get more
1:28:21familiar um with um ancient wisdom that
1:28:25we carry. Um, I was wondering was there
1:28:29something specific to African Orthodoxy
1:28:32that you noticed while writing the book
1:28:36and uh in simple terms if you could
1:28:38explain it to orthodox brothers and
1:28:42sisters?
1:28:44>> Yeah, absolutely. So, um I also write
1:28:47about this in my dissertation. So one of
1:28:49the things is uh uh back to women's
1:28:53studies how how women were perceived.
1:28:56>> Um so there's this idea that globally
1:29:01women were not respected
1:29:04globally that women were backward. uh
1:29:06and there's this concept that even in
1:29:08orthodoxy
1:29:10uh women are held back
1:29:12>> right um and uh especially I I read
1:29:16about this in my dissertation there's
1:29:18this book um the miracles of Mary texts
1:29:22uh in Ethiopia of course uh the part of
1:29:26it came from Egypt but then once it
1:29:28entered Ethiopia the Ethiopia started
1:29:30writing their own miracles down and
1:29:32there's a story in there about um a girl
1:29:36who ends up buying her own property
1:29:40and selling her own property on her own
1:29:43without the aid of a man in the 1700s,
1:29:48right? [snorts]
1:29:49And kind of cool
1:29:50>> and that shows you exactly like this
1:29:53this is like amazing stuff. And then
1:29:55there's also another story
1:29:57much earlier I think from the 15th
1:29:59century or so. Uh this is an Egyptian
1:30:02story but about um a young girl who
1:30:07wants to know how to read and she's
1:30:10taught by uh a woman and every character
1:30:14in the story are women.
1:30:16>> Um find me a story like that in in in uh
1:30:21European texts.
1:30:23Find me a story in the 1400s.
1:30:24>> Unless there were no Yeah.
1:30:28>> Yeah. But e even nobles, right, they
1:30:31wouldn't be taught by other women and
1:30:34all the characters being women, right?
1:30:36Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um um um but
1:30:39this is like a common very like very
1:30:43like regular story. I mean, that wasn't
1:30:46even the central plot of the story.
1:30:48>> So, uh how women are are treated is very
1:30:52unique. And and I bring this up again to
1:30:54say uh you know, we've got to be careful
1:30:58when we're in the world and we bring up
1:31:00ideas
1:31:02uh that we begin to apply into the
1:31:04church thinking we're fixing something.
1:31:07>> The church is not broken. We are. The
1:31:10church is here to fix us. The church
1:31:12doesn't need fixing. Um sure, there are
1:31:15people within the church that need
1:31:17fixing. Sure, there's people in
1:31:20leadership that need fixing, but the
1:31:23church doesn't need fixing. And it
1:31:26happens all the time that modern
1:31:29concepts, what we pick up in our
1:31:31schools, in our college textbooks, what
1:31:33we see on Tik Tok, we think that this is
1:31:36a model that the church needs that we
1:31:38are bringing it in. And unfortunately, I
1:31:40think that's actually taking us
1:31:42backward, not forward.
1:31:44>> That is so true. Oh my god, that is so
1:31:46true. Uh, Deacon Dowey, thank you so
1:31:48much. That was such a informative,
1:31:51interesting conversation. I I just um I
1:31:54just want to read your book so badly
1:31:57now. Um, and I I also wanted to ask you,
1:32:00where can people find you? Um, let's
1:32:03make it easier for them. [laughter]
1:32:06>> Absolutely. So, a lot of my English
1:32:07contacts contents are on YouTube with my
1:32:10name, first and last name, Dr. Muna or
1:32:13you can find me on IG at Dmulina and uh
1:32:17that would be my IG. My Tik Tok is also
1:32:19my name, but I make a lot of uh content
1:32:23uh on it and I do a lot of apologetics.
1:32:25So if you if you see me going back and
1:32:26forth and and and doing things like
1:32:28that, that's that's that's what I'm
1:32:30doing on on on Tik Tok.
1:32:32>> Wonderful. Please.
1:32:33>> And you can find both my books on you
1:32:36can find both my books on Amazon. A
1:32:38third one on the way hopefully by the
1:32:40end of the year. I'll have uh a book
1:32:42titled help my unbelief all about doubt
1:32:44and how to how to come to God even with
1:32:47our doubt. God is not looking for a
1:32:49perfect faith. He wants an honest faith.
1:32:53>> Wow. Thank you so much Dick and David. I
1:32:56wish you all the best uh with your third
1:32:59book and I'm looking forward to reading
1:33:02the second and the third book and uh
1:33:04thank you so much. It was a such a such
1:33:08a treat to have you here. such a really
1:33:11really really really happy happy event
1:33:14for me because I've been following your
1:33:15journey for a while. Thank you so much.
1:33:18>> Thank you so much. I really appreciate
1:33:19it and hopefully we could do this
1:33:21another time. Yeah,
1:33:22>> thank you friends. If you would like to
1:33:24learn more, I encourage you to follow
1:33:26Deacon Dowit's work and explore his
1:33:28books, I Need Answers and Hopeless
1:33:30Romantic: The Untold History of
1:33:33Ethiopia. You can find the links in the
1:33:35description down below. As always, this
1:33:38video is a collaboration between the
1:33:39Western Dasis of the Armenian Church and
1:33:42myself. Please subscribe to my channel,
1:33:45Ola Sona, and to the channel of the
1:33:47Western Dasis, so you do not miss our
1:33:49upcoming conversations. The traditions
1:33:52entrusted to us are not museum pieces
1:33:55from a forgotten past. There are living
1:33:57inheritance meant to lead every
1:33:59generation more deeply into the mystery
1:34:02of our faith and the life of Christ.
1:34:05Thank you for watching. watching Dust
1:34:06and Glory. I'll see you in the next
1:34:08episode. Stay safe, friends.

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