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Ethics at Altitude: Lincoln Hall, Greg Child, James Tabor — Transcript

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0:06My name's Dougal Macdonald. I'm your
0:07moderator.
0:09And
0:10we thought about doing a live
0:11demonstration here and just pushing
0:13Lincoln over and seeing if anybody came
0:14to his aid. Uh
0:17Or maybe we'll just talk about it
0:19instead.
0:21So, ethics at altitude. Uh it's a pretty
0:23broad topic. It could be anything from
0:24uh
0:26lying about uh whether you've climbed a
0:28mountain, which has certainly happened
0:29in the past, uh to the style of
0:32climbing, to
0:34the dilemma that uh Simon Yates faced on
0:36Siula Grande.
0:38But, we're going to narrow the scope
0:40today um
0:42to one aspect, and that is
0:44what goes into the decision uh to come
0:47to the aid of a a fellow climber who's
0:49who's stricken
0:50or to not come to the aid.
0:52And you think this would be a
0:53no-brainer. Uh but
0:57events over the years have shown that
0:58that's not always the case. Uh
1:02rightly or wrongly, the events on uh
1:05Mount Everest last year in the spring of
1:08last year
1:09were portrayed as a a direct contrast um
1:12in the starkest and and probably
1:13misleading terms.
1:15Uh David Sharp ran into trouble on the
1:17mountain,
1:19was helped down uh was not helped down
1:21and died.
1:22Uh our panelist Lincoln Hall ran into
1:24trouble, was helped down, and lived.
1:28And the media generally portray such
1:30incidents as a a black-and-white
1:32contrast between good and if and if not
1:35all right, evil, certainly not so good.
1:38Uh
1:39climber A
1:41helps somebody in trouble, climber B
1:43walks by or stays in the tent. Um
1:46But, I I guess the question is whether
1:48this portrayal is really ever accurate.
1:50Um
1:51whether these events actually play out
1:53as they're reported or
1:55if they even if they do, whether the
1:57complications of high-altitude
1:59mountaineering are such that um
2:03it's impossible to apply the same moral
2:06standards that you might on the street.
2:09Uh or put another way, as as as Greg
2:11said to me before he got in here to
2:13today, uh
2:15if uh you walk out of the Saint James at
2:182:00 in the morning and there's a drunk,
2:19you know, somebody in trouble lying on
2:20the street, uh do you help that person
2:22or walk by?
2:24Or
2:26and do you mountaineers at high altitude
2:28respond the same way? Are they somehow
2:29given a pass because of the extremities
2:31that they're they're in? So, that's some
2:33of the things that we'll be talking
2:34about. We've got a fantastic panel. Um
2:37to my left, uh Lincoln Hall, whom I hope
2:40most of you saw his uh presentation last
2:42night. Uh
2:44he's been long been one of Australia's
2:47uh
2:47most experienced mountaineers, one of
2:49the foremost mountaineers, and of course
2:50the author of the the new book Dead
2:52Lucky about his experiences on um on
2:55Mount Everest in in uh
2:572006. But, actually his eighth book, so
2:59uh he's no newbie. Uh Greg Child, uh
3:02also one of Australia's and America's uh
3:05most experienced mountaineers,
3:07uh and has written extensively uh about
3:09the real world um of high-altitude
3:12climbing uh from having been there on on
3:14some of the the most difficult mountains
3:16on Earth.
3:17And uh finally, Jim Tabor from Vermont,
3:20uh who wrote about ethical issues uh
3:23on uh surrounding an incident that
3:25happened 40 years ago uh on Denali,
3:28Mount McKinley in Alaska, and uh these
3:31events were covered vividly in uh his
3:33book Forever on the Mountain, which was
3:35uh of course this year's um grand prize
3:37winner in the um Banff Mountain Book
3:38Festival.
3:45Now, we were going to have a fourth
3:47panelist today, uh Andrew Brash, who was
3:49uh uh
3:50famous locally from Calgary for uh
3:52helping out Mr. Hall here on Everest um
3:55last um last spring. Now, Andrew was
3:58apparently at the Saint James as well
4:00late last night, and no, it's not what
4:02you're thinking. Uh he uh
4:05on the way home or at some point later
4:08in the evening, uh his wife uh went into
4:10labor and they've uh delivered a um
4:12healthy baby girl. So.
4:21So, he couldn't uh well, opted not to
4:23come.
4:25Probably a wise choice.
4:29He uh also, let's just get going. Greg,
4:31um
4:33when we spoke beforehand, you had um a
4:35bit to say about this whole notion of
4:38uh whether
4:40mountaineers uh
4:43do hold to or or have a sense of sort of
4:45higher obligation, maybe because of
4:48something uh the legends that were built
4:49up during the the golden age of
4:51mountaineering. I wonder if you'd just
4:53comment on whether you think
4:55we actually do hold ourselves to a
4:56higher standard than the the man on the
4:58street or or if we should.
5:01Well, I
5:02first of all, I'd say that this is a
5:03subject that makes me really nervous.
5:05Cuz it's just so full of uh
5:08expectations from uh uh
5:11people who aren't climbers are always
5:13looking at people who are climbers,
5:15especially Himalayan mountaineers,
5:17expecting something more, expecting that
5:20we are more
5:21so have some sort of real moral high
5:23ground in the way we we do things with
5:26each other.
5:27But, and I don't really, you know,
5:30know whether we do or don't, except for
5:32based on what I've experienced myself.
5:35But, really I think that
5:37the uh ethics of of morality, as in how
5:39do we help our fellow climber or person
5:42at high altitude are really no different
5:43to that drunk outside the pub at Saint
5:45James Gate. You know,
5:47you you have a moral obligation to help
5:49people in some fashion wherever you are,
5:52whether it's on a mountain or in wartime
5:54or someone in a car accident, and I
5:56think people do that.
5:58And I know that climbing's got a really
6:00um
6:01you know, quite a bad rap from these
6:02high-publicized highly publicized things
6:04like the the David Sharp
6:08episode on the one hand and and what
6:10turned out to be a good thing
6:12for Lincoln and Andrew on the other.
6:15Um
6:17But, but all I can do is really maybe
6:19tell story quick a story about uh how
6:22I've only been able to frame what I know
6:24is uh expected of one on the mountain.
6:27It happened in 1983 when I was on Broad
6:30Peak, the very first 8,000-m peak I
6:31tried to climb. I was with a British
6:33guy, Peter Thexton. We were very close
6:35to the summit,
6:37and uh I became sick. Not quite sure
6:40whether it was pulmonary edema or or
6:41some kind of a little stroke, but I was
6:44pretty much laid out on in the snow.
6:46And
6:48uh Pete didn't step by me on his way to
6:50the summit. We were only 40 uh we were
6:5218 vertical feet and about half an hour
6:54horizontally from the top.
6:56And he stayed with me, and uh he stayed
6:59with me for about an hour, and then
7:01miraculously I sort of just snapped out
7:03of that, and it became clear we should
7:04go down cuz I I could get worse, and I
7:07wasn't feeling really sharp after I
7:09snapped out of this
7:11sort of trance-like state, a bit like
7:12what Lincoln was describing last night
7:14as the the slide into oblivion.
7:17Well, shortly after I snapped out of
7:19this and we're walking down the
7:20mountain,
7:21Pete turns to me and asks me
7:24if if it looked like his lips had gone
7:26blue, and they had. And very quickly, he
7:30began to succumb to pulmonary edema.
7:34And
7:36so, what did I do? Well, didn't occur to
7:38me to leave him and get the hell out of
7:40there.
7:40I I started trying to help him down. Um
7:43he became pretty immobile,
7:45and I started trying to drag him down.
7:47Luckily, he wasn't much bigger than me,
7:48so that was possible.
7:50But, in the end, to cut a long and
7:52unfortunate story short, he didn't make
7:54it down the mountain. He he did die that
7:56night.
7:58But, uh why am I telling you this story?
8:00Because it's very simple story. You
8:01know, it's it's two people who were
8:03getting into trouble in a pretty hostile
8:05place, and it never occurred to either
8:07of us
8:08uh to not help the other. And I just
8:11think that's that's the baseline of
8:14climbing. Uh we do this for each other,
8:16and there's no there's no heroism about
8:18that. That's just That's just what we
8:19do. And so, that's that that's that's
8:22what I learned in 1983, and and I think
8:24I've seen it by and large
8:27uh I've seen other climbers do this
8:28consistently in my experience.
8:31Your your experience is based on this
8:34this story is based on a small trip
8:36amongst a group of if not friends, then
8:38at least uh close colleagues, people
8:40knew each other going into it, a lot of
8:41respect for each other, small small
8:43team. And uh
8:45I think that one of the differences
8:47today is here you have mountains that
8:49are
8:50uh
8:51crawling with a lot of a large numbers
8:52of people, many of whom don't know each
8:54other, um never never will likely know
8:56each other. And Lincoln, I'm wondering
8:58you've been doing Himalayan expeditions
9:00for two decades. You did two Everest
9:02trips 22 years apart. And if that you've
9:05seen some sort of deterioration in the
9:07environment uh as a result of the huge
9:10num-
9:11increase in numbers, and specifically,
9:14I'm wondering if you ever thought about
9:17before last year's expedition, if you
9:19ever sort of supposed to yourself, well,
9:21what would happen if I got in trouble up
9:22there? Would would would people help me
9:24or not?
9:27Well, actually I haven't I haven't
9:28thought about whether people would help
9:30me uh
9:31because I hadn't thought about Well, I
9:32guess
9:35I always go to the mountains with the
9:37idea that I won't get into trouble.
9:39And
9:40and that seems to have worked most of
9:41the time. Um so, but I mean, it's not an
9:44assumption. It's not It's just, you
9:46know, you've got to take you've got to
9:47do your homework, you've got to know
9:49you've got to be in shape, you've got to
9:50understand the mountain, you've got to
9:51put that time in.
9:53Um because I always want to come home,
9:54and so um
9:57I have rescued people myself. Um in
10:00fact, I was rescued on my first
10:01Himalayan trip, so I got off to a good
10:03start. That was back in 1978. I was 22
10:06years old, lost my first toes, and
10:08you know, so um then I was a
10:09mountaineer.
10:10But, um so the question was answered
10:13before I even thought about it. I was
10:14rescued before uh
10:15and really that was frostbite. It's just
10:17that it it wasn't a life-threatening
10:20situation. It's just There were 16
10:21people on this expedition, and
10:24they wanted to carry me down um in a big
10:25stretcher, so
10:27yeah, why not? Do you
10:29Do either of you think though that uh
10:31the the change in the environment with
10:33so many more people uh on some of these
10:36big commercial mountains have changed
10:39uh
10:39the the likelihood of people coming to
10:43help?
10:45Well, I think that when you
10:47uh
10:48I mean, my early climbing years were
10:49like Greg's in that we climbed with a
10:51group of people that we knew.
10:53I tended to climb with about the same
10:55four or five people on different trips,
10:57and uh
10:59and you tended to know when someone
11:01wasn't right because you knew them very
11:02well.
11:04Uh if they're just being quiet, and
11:05usually they weren't, you That was an
11:07indicator. Whereas, if you're on a trip
11:10where you don't know anybody, you don't
11:11know what their personality is like, so
11:12you don't know that there's suddenly a
11:14personality change
11:16because you haven't seen them. You might
11:17think, "Oh, maybe they're just not
11:19dealing well with altitude." Whereas, in
11:20fact, it might be something a lot more
11:21serious. So, that's not so much a
11:23morality thing, but because you don't
11:25understand the people you're with as
11:27much,
11:28um
11:28you're perhaps not so bold in making a
11:30suggestion. Uh and also, you're not able
11:33to judge. Mhm.
11:34I mean, I one way I know that this these
11:36are not new issues is from Jim's book 40
11:39years ago on on Mount McKinley,
11:42uh some of the same issues played out,
11:44and
11:46uh
11:46in particular, a small group of climbers
11:49on that on the mountain uh that year
11:51were thrust into a search and rescue
11:54uh mode in part by the abdication of the
11:56responsibility by the the National Park
11:58Service and others.
12:00Did they ever consider just saying no,
12:02or uh did they willingly and
12:05enthusiastically go up? Well, the group
12:08you're referring to was the
12:09Mountaineering Club of Alaska, five-man
12:11team led by Bill Babcock.
12:13Um and no, I think they never never
12:17never even occurred to them to say no.
12:19So, from the moment that they learned
12:22that there were seven guys trapped up
12:23high, um they really thrust themselves,
12:26you know, into the uh into the breach,
12:29so to speak, without any urging from the
12:31National Park Service. And if nothing
12:33else, I think the the uh incident
12:35illustrates the dramatic difference
12:37between climbers and non-climbers
12:39because the two people who were
12:40administering the park in those days
12:42were good men and good civil servants,
12:44but they had never climbed a day in
12:46their life on any mountain. And so, I
12:47think they one of the one of the reasons
12:49that rescue was not more uh immediate in
12:52that situation was that the two guys
12:54really had very very great trouble
12:56understanding viscerally what what the
12:58seven men up high were going through.
13:00Whereas, the MCA fellows knew very very
13:03well that seven men who they didn't know
13:06from Adam, but who they thought of as
13:08climbing brethren, you know, the
13:09brotherhood of the rope, were trapped
13:10and needed help. Um and they really
13:13risked their lives for a number of days
13:14and nights to try to get to those
13:16fellows. So.
13:17If I'm remembering your book right, they
13:19also resented it quite a bit, uh or at
13:21least resented the inaction of the the
13:23Park Service. Did they feel like uh it
13:25really wasn't their job, and that
13:26somebody else ought to be up there doing
13:27it for them? No, I I think bef- before
13:30they had, you know, they had radio
13:31communication with the Park Service, and
13:33before they actually went up, they were
13:35led to believe that they would have some
13:37air support from the Park Service, that
13:39they would be dropped um food,
13:41additional fuel, things like that, so
13:42that their loads wouldn't have to be
13:44quite so heavy. That never materialized.
13:46Um and I think that
13:48nor did the Park Service ever really
13:51declare an all-out rescue emergency. So,
13:53I think those two things really did
13:54contribute to
13:56to their uh to their frustration, which
13:58Bill Babcock wrote about very
14:00graphically in his expedition log. Mhm.
14:03Now, we
14:04when we were talking just before sitting
14:06down here today, I I was a little
14:09surprised, but maybe not, to hear that
14:11um
14:12especially Greg and Lincoln were talking
14:13about the incidents on on Everest last
14:16year, and
14:17uh and saying that
14:18in many ways the problem problem may be
14:21exaggerated,
14:22uh and that
14:24uh are a lot more incidents of rescue
14:28uh than the public knows about. Uh and I
14:32think maybe it'd be interesting to hear
14:33both of you talk about that. Maybe Greg?
14:35Yeah, well, I I was actually at Everest
14:37last year, not really as a climber, but
14:39as a journalist. So, uh
14:41I was working for discovery.com doing
14:43the web content for their website, which
14:45is really a big promotion for this
14:47television series that they do,
14:49following a team of guided people up
14:51Everest. So, I was surrounded by the
14:52Everest scene
14:54and observing it, um hundreds of people,
14:56and um
14:58you know, we only hear about the really
15:00awful things, uh particularly, I'll say
15:02it again, this David Sharp incident,
15:05where it was alleged that lots of people
15:07ignored the man when he was, you know,
15:10curled up in a ball dying beside the
15:11trail, and just walked by him with a
15:13blind ambition for the summit. And I
15:15don't really think that's a very
15:16accurate portrayal, but more to the
15:18point, I
15:20uh witnessed numerous uh
15:23examples of of people helping each
15:25other.
15:26Um
15:27the the group that I was attached to was
15:29Russell Brice's group, one of the
15:30biggest, most
15:32um
15:33high-priced, if you will, but most elite
15:35of the guiding operations.
15:37And he and several other of these
15:39guiding operations, whenever someone is
15:41in trouble,
15:42uh they were very quick to rally their
15:45own uh hired Sherpas uh using their own
15:48equipment and oxygen and doctors to get
15:51up the mountain in some fashion,
15:53retrieve these stricken people, and
15:55bring them down.
15:56And because most of these things had a
15:58happy ending, or maybe were even
15:59non-stories, you know, someone's got a
16:01bit of frostbite, bring him down.
16:02Someone collapsed due to early signs of
16:05edema, bring him down.
16:07And and they'd all end up usually happy
16:09ending. So, there's really no media
16:11story. But, I saw countless examples of
16:14people doing what people are supposed to
16:16do. Nothing heroic, just doing what
16:17you're supposed to do. So, and I, you
16:20know, I really get um
16:23uncomfortable about
16:25the idea that
16:27you know, some people are sort of
16:28falling behind in their moral
16:29obligation. Sure, it happens.
16:32There there were examples of that, too,
16:33but the vast majority of of people are
16:36doing just the decent human thing and
16:39and helping out.
16:42Lincoln, do you have I was wondering if
16:44um
16:45one of the issues that comes up in uh
16:47discussing rescue at at high altitude is
16:50just the sheer physical difficulty of
16:52it, or or even impossibility of it. And
16:54in the end, you were able to essentially
16:56walk down,
16:57uh but other people that might
17:00There are plenty of people that that
17:02couldn't walk down, and would need to be
17:04carried or somehow assisted. But, I
17:06wonder if you could just describe
17:08uh
17:10the sort of limits of uh ability to help
17:13somebody at extremely high altitudes.
17:18Well, yeah, I can perhaps easiest way to
17:21do that is is not with my story.
17:23A friend of mine was uh an Australian
17:26last year on Everest.
17:28No, this year on Shishapangma. Uh
17:31his climbing partner died at base camp.
17:34And uh he contacted the family and his
17:38his wife and and promised to to deliver
17:41the body back to uh
17:43back to America.
17:45And what he did was the the the I mean,
17:48the logistics is all, you know, with
17:50borders, and particularly with Tibet,
17:52was a challenge. So, anyway, he managed
17:54to get the the board the body down to
17:55the border. Now, the final There's a
17:58landslide that that you have to cross.
18:00You can't drive the across the border
18:02because the it's the
18:04the hillside is just too unstable. And
18:06they had to carry this body of someone
18:08who'd been dead for about four or three
18:09or four days
18:11across down this slope and across the
18:13bridge. And Blair emailed when he
18:15emailed to me, he said that, you know,
18:17this
18:17uh he was really emotional about all
18:19this cuz his friend had died, and
18:21and he said, "Yeah, this is all that
18:22stuff about David Sharp last year where
18:24people were saying, 'Why didn't they
18:25carry him?'" He said, "We had so much
18:27trouble carrying Ray down that slope and
18:29across the bridge, and there were four
18:30of us. I mean, it's just impossible to
18:32get someone out of that situation that
18:34David Sharp was in.
18:36So,
18:37and that's the reality. I mean, high
18:38alt- you know, above 8,000 m, it's uh
18:42you know, your brain's moving much more
18:44slowly. You're just not getting the
18:45oxygen The oxygen's not there to have
18:48any part of your body performing
18:49properly, and that includes your brain.
18:51And uh um
18:53and then there's, you know, body weighs
18:55five times as much because you haven't
18:57got the oxygen to make your
18:58your muscles work. I mean, these are the
19:00things that don't get in the headlines.
19:02It's just the fact that he was he was
19:05alive when you left him, and that's
19:06that's a tragic thing. But, the thing
19:08is, if you're sick with someone as they
19:10died, as unfortunately I have done,
19:12um
19:15you if you did that up there, you'd also
19:16be dead. So, it's it's a whole different
19:18dynamic.
19:21You um
19:23uh
19:24Greg, I wonder if you it does that ring
19:26true? I mean, you were able to help Pete
19:27Texton down. Were you actually uh
19:30dragging him literally, or Yeah,
19:32probably for a few hundred feet. I was
19:34able to drag him. It took an incredibly
19:36long time, all through the night.
19:38And um
19:39we got close to a We got a hundred yards
19:42or so
19:43from our tent, and there were two other
19:45climbers from our group in the tent, and
19:47then they helped get Pete down the the
19:49last bit.
19:51But, um
19:52well, he didn't make it through the
19:53night. It's just the pulmonary edema
19:55eventually uh killed him.
19:58But, then that then that element of the
20:00morality of this whole discussion kicked
20:02in and like, "Well, what do we do with
20:03the body?" And I was actually, you know,
20:06in a bit of a state uh emotionally. And
20:09uh
20:10Don Williams and a and a Pakistani guy
20:12were up there
20:13at the tent. And uh Don, a pretty tough
20:16and salty old character, basically just
20:18said, "Look, son, you know, no no one's
20:20going to carry Peak down. You know, this
20:21is where he's going to stay." It
20:23troubled me greatly. But, then I, you
20:25know, completely saw the sense in it.
20:26There was no way we could
20:28Just moving him a a few hundred feet to
20:30a a more peaceful place to
20:33put him in a bit of a crevasse hole was
20:35was enough effort. I could see that.
20:37But, then um I went straight back to
20:41to Britain to to his parents. And uh I
20:43was very scared on the flight home that
20:45they would
20:46they would be absolutely um horrified
20:49and angry at me that we hadn't brought
20:50the body down.
20:52But, the first thing that his mother
20:53said was uh that she totally understands
20:55why we didn't do that. And
20:58uh
20:58I've since maintained a friendship with
21:00that family.
21:01Through a strong one.
21:02But, you just can't really um there's
21:04only so much you can do for people at
21:06high altitude. That's for sure.
21:08And again, going back to this David
21:09Sharp story, um
21:10so much misreporting about
21:12what happened I
21:14went on.
21:15But, the fact is that the the by the
21:17time people really were aware that he
21:19was still alive and laying
21:21pretty close to this trail where people
21:23climb past, he was so frozen up and so
21:27uh
21:27gone
21:29that he couldn't have been
21:31taken down. But, Uh I got that from the
21:33Sherpas who were there and from other
21:35people who were there. Uh but, the you
21:37might have said the same thing about
21:38Lincoln at some point during his
21:40episode. Could easily. And I wonder how
21:42you Yeah, every situation's different,
21:45isn't it?
21:46Every situation is different, but is
21:48doesn't it at some point then beg
21:51the participants to to do anything they
21:54can at that point if the person is still
21:56alive?
21:57Well, maybe did people do everything
21:59they could for David Sharp? I wasn't
22:00there. I can't answer it. But, I kind of
22:02think that they did.
22:04I think that the big failing
22:07I don't know if I'm getting off the
22:07subject here, but
22:10uh
22:12what I know about the David Sharp
22:13incident comes from the fact that I was
22:15on the expedition with a lot of the
22:16Sherpas who were involved in
22:17encountering David Sharp.
22:19And Russell Brice had a hand in it. And
22:21David Sharp's parents came on Russell's
22:24expedition to Everest with us.
22:26And talked about some of this. And
22:28anyway,
22:30because they wanted to go to Everest uh
22:32basically to say goodbye to David.
22:34Um
22:37Uh I think I lost the thought. A bit
22:38like you, Lincoln. You do that.
22:42Yeah. See who's been at altitude a lot
22:43here. But, anyway, I know yeah, it
22:45happens a bit.
22:47Uh so, I I I talk about this David Sharp
22:48thing. Well, I think the the the the the
22:49the big
22:51Okay, you you have a morality unto
22:53yourself.
22:54And you have a morality to um your
22:56family, your wife, kids, friends,
23:00parents um
23:01to come back. So, you should uh really
23:04prepare yourself.
23:06And what David did, I'm not criticizing
23:08him directly, but just look at what he
23:09did. He signed on to a um a no-frills
23:12expedition. He paid about 10,000 bucks
23:16uh
23:17to to just get himself on Everest. And I
23:20think I think he got a bottle of oxygen
23:22and really no other support.
23:24He didn't take a radio.
23:26And he did take lots of other things.
23:29Apparently, in his pack were things like
23:30dexamethasone and things like that. He
23:32wasn't out on a suicide mission. But, he
23:35didn't really um
23:37tick off all the boxes of
23:38self-preservation.
23:40One of the big ones up there on Everest
23:43is is radios because the mountain's
23:45swarming with people. If anything goes
23:47wrong and you've got a radio,
23:49you can
23:50get on some channel and find someone to
23:52tell them, "I'm I'm in trouble and
23:54here's here I am. Can someone help me?"
23:56So, you know, this morality discussion,
23:59yeah, I think it it it comes down to the
24:01individual as well and not, you know,
24:04all it's not total reliance on those
24:06around you. It's you got to you got to
24:07rely on yourself and you got to
24:09um
24:10help people to help you. Yeah. I wonder
24:12if I I throw out a question. I
24:14I don't know if if there's an answer to
24:16this, but uh
24:19I wonder if there are times when it's
24:21would be immoral for a climber who's in
24:23trouble to actually call for help. In
24:26other words, by
24:27uh Maybe you could argue it more. Yeah.
24:29It would depend on the size of their
24:30text, but
24:33Yeah, I I think if there could be a case
24:35where obviously you're going to
24:36jeopardize would-be rescuers. Uh
24:38if if the Sherpas had stayed longer with
24:41you, they would have quite possibly
24:43died. Yes, well, that would have been
24:44the worst possible outcome. Yeah.
24:46For me. Had they had they died. Yes. And
24:49they were very close to it. Yeah.
24:52Have you ever Does anybody aware of any
24:54historical examples of somebody turning
24:56deliberately calling off rescuers and
24:58saying
24:59Well, there's the classic This is not
25:00quite the same, but it's Captain Oates
25:02sort of saying, "I might be some time."
25:04You know, when there's not enough when
25:06Scott and his team were a day's hike
25:08from from home and there was not enough
25:10food or fuel. And And Captain Oates
25:12just, you know, sacrificed himself.
25:15At least, that's the popular
25:16interpretation.
25:20But, that's not quite a rescue. That's
25:21like a self sort of
25:22What's it? Self-sacrifice, really. Yeah,
25:24I think that's what I was getting at,
25:25but
25:26We've talked a lot about uh media and
25:29and the role of the media uh in these
25:31events and particularly
25:34probable misreporting. And there are a
25:36lot of aspects to this, but I was
25:37wondering first if
25:39any of you believe that clearly I in the
25:42the media reporting in the aftermath of
25:44an event that has a great impact on the
25:46lives of survivors and the and the
25:47analysis of what actually happened and
25:49families. But, I'm wondering if you
25:51think that
25:52the
25:54real-time
25:55uh and almost live reporting of events
25:58high on mountains halfway around the
26:00world, if the knowledge that that
26:02uh reporting is constantly going on
26:05shapes how people climb today in these
26:07uh media-rich environments. I mean, I
26:09think we're talking specifically about
26:10Everest and other commercial uh
26:12commercial expedition. Well, Well, I
26:15think it does because people are lulled
26:18into a false sense of security. Because
26:20it's, you know, they've got satellite
26:22phones. They've got
26:23emails. You know, I mean, it's it you
26:25feel like you've got the communications
26:28lines are open.
26:30And uh
26:31but in fact, it's still an incredibly
26:33dangerous place. And there's a
26:34perception that anyone can go there. And
26:37Well, so anyone can, but it's
26:40I I think, you know, technology is uh
26:43all very well, but
26:45uh
26:47it does really create a sense of uh the
26:50same sort of security that we have back
26:51here. And it's not like that up there.
26:53Mhm. You know, that's that's true. I
26:55would I would add that there is another
26:56aspect to that though. And um as we saw
26:59last couple of seasons on Mount Hood, uh
27:01intense media scrutiny really prevented
27:04or let me put this different really
27:05fueled, I think, an immediate and
27:07massive rescue response for guys who
27:08were who were trapped badly up there.
27:10The absence of that kind of media um
27:13capability back in '67 made it possible
27:16for for the non-rescue to continue day
27:18after day after day after day. So, I
27:20think there there is a positive
27:22uh
27:23aspect to the to the intense media
27:25coverage as well. Well, there is Yeah,
27:26that's true. But, I guess my point is
27:28that you're getting more people up there
27:30who are likely to get into trouble.
27:32And I wouldn't I wouldn't argue with
27:33that. I think you're absolutely right.
27:35Do you think that uh expedition leaders
27:37and other uh figures in sort of
27:40positions of power or positions of um
27:42uh
27:43increased ability on a mountain, ability
27:45to have some uh impact, are they under
27:49additional pressure to uh react promptly
27:53because they think, "Oh, this is going
27:55to I I know this is going to be covered
27:57on 7,000 blogs around the world
27:59tomorrow." Uh
28:01Do you see anything like that, Greg? Or
28:02are they people just acting the way they
28:03would anyway? Uh again, I I still think
28:05that uh you know, your your primary
28:08reaction's going to be
28:10a logical, do the right thing reaction
28:12before you start worrying about, "Oh,
28:13how will I be portrayed in the media?"
28:16Um and again, you know,
28:18kind of always this discussion keeps
28:20leading back to Everest cuz it is the
28:22circus maximus of
28:24of of the mountains. And uh
28:27you know, on Everest, there are I I
28:28I think I had a blog on Everest. That's
28:31what I That's what my job was uh this
28:33year. But, there there there were
28:35probably 20 other blogs at least.
28:37And
28:39I I saw um
28:41you know, lots of incorrect information
28:43going down. It's For example, I would
28:45watch I would see things written about
28:47our particular expedition that were
28:50absolutely and completely untrue. By
28:53blogs of people who I don't think they
28:54were actually even in Tibet.
28:58And we I look at this and go, "How could
28:59they say that about us?" And it's
29:01because Well, there's no there's no
29:02checking. There's no fact-checking.
29:04There's no um accountability for the way
29:06you report stuff in the mountains these
29:09days. So, a lot of a lot of the stuff
29:10you you read about
29:12that's happened on a mountain, I would
29:14really give it a,
29:16a grain
29:17grain of salt and uh
29:19I wouldn't regard it as particularly
29:21reliable.
29:22Does this uh it Especially mine.
29:27Does it create perceptions then that uh
29:30that things are actually maybe quite a
29:31bit different up there than they
29:33actually are? Yeah, well, I think this
29:34new era of like uh instant live
29:37reporting that you can get for any any
29:39expedition. It doesn't have to be
29:40Everest. It could be on McKinley today.
29:43Uh everyone's got a website now, you
29:44know, it didn't used to be like that.
29:45But, every expedition has some sort of
29:47reporting capability.
29:49And like I say, if something happens,
29:51there's this real urge, just like uh you
29:53know, in the newsroom at the daily
29:55newspaper, to scoop the story. Which
29:57leads to
29:58uh well, I knew I was reading you know,
30:01things had turned out to be quite untrue
30:02about what was going on in your case,
30:04and
30:05just happens all the time. The urge to
30:06sort of get the story first creates
30:08instant flaws. Yeah, I I was hoping
30:11Lincoln, you might address this cuz you
30:12I know you feel pretty strongly about
30:13the
30:15responsibilities of media and and the
30:17the so-called citizen journalists and uh
30:22Yeah, well,
30:24uh
30:25That's right. I mean, I was um
30:27declared missing 25 years ago or
30:29something. And that's just cuz we're in
30:31a 9-day storm and we didn't have radios.
30:33And And now the opposite So, that
30:35creates a a mis-
30:37uh the you know, your misunderstanding
30:39about
30:40about welfare, but they had the opposite
30:42problem this time around where I guess I
30:44wouldn't be here today, probably,
30:46if if there'd been none of that media,
30:49because I would have been dead and back
30:50again and there'd be no story, you know?
30:52But uh But what was
30:55what was uh
30:58really unfortunate was that there were
30:59people who were
31:02who had died and within 20 minutes, it
31:04was on the net.
31:05And you know, not on the net, not to a
31:08family, not you know, it was just like
31:09how you know, imagine you just
31:11someone
31:13one of your family dies, and you read
31:15about it on the net, and it's and then
31:17and then it turns out to be wrong or you
31:20know,
31:21or you the other thing is that they know
31:23they actually didn't die and in fact
31:24they did. I mean, it's just there is
31:25just no
31:27um
31:28checking of this. I mean, there are for
31:29some people, but those aren't the
31:31reports that come out first. And there
31:33was there was a a web report that came
31:35out from someone who was in Adelaide, in
31:36Australia, saying that I was 100% alive.
31:39And in the same lower down, Lincoln
31:42should be okay. I mean, it's sort of
31:43like you should you know,
31:45it's it's it was contradictory. And it
31:47was just
31:48send, you know? And it's uh
31:50it's
31:52Yeah, it's just nonsense. And
31:54unfortunately, those that is
31:56misinformation goes all the way to the
31:58top of the media chain, which is the big
32:00papers and the Edmund Hillary responding
32:02to the Edmund Hillary, well, he is he is
32:04an institution, I suppose. Um
32:07uh responding to misinformation, which
32:09is doesn't do him any good if he's sort
32:12of uh commenting on on facts that aren't
32:13facts. These things feed on themselves,
32:16you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And
32:17And it goes all the way and it even
32:19finds its way into the climbing
32:20magazines. And I think perhaps the the
32:22standard of journalism is actually
32:24uh
32:26um got worse in in the certainly in the
32:29case of some writers that I've read,
32:31because they use this for the
32:32information and it's
32:34it's not the case. Mhm. Yeah, I would I
32:36would say that there's there are two
32:37definite downsides to the explosion of
32:39electronic journalism. One of them is
32:41the rule that if there's any TV
32:43journalists out here, I'll apologize in
32:44advance, but the rule that um if it
32:46bleeds, it leads. You know, they've
32:48learned long ago that bad news and the
32:51bloodier the blood the better um is the
32:53kind of news that that brings in
32:54viewership. And another side of that is
32:57the need for speed. You know, if you're
32:59not first out with news, uh there's a
33:02there's a tremendous amount of pressure
33:04to be first out. And so, I think that
33:06has had a detrimental effect, for sure,
33:09on the kind of fact-checking and the
33:10kind of um
33:12truth assurance that used to be
33:14predominant in both your print and
33:16broadcast journalism.
33:17Well, another thing about my situation,
33:19which wasn't sort of life-threatening,
33:21but it was certainly unjust, was that um
33:25uh Andrew Brash, who's now hold is now
33:27holding his new baby or something like
33:28that, and Dan Mazur, Miles Osborne, and
33:30Jangbu Sherpa, who were the guys that uh
33:33that uh
33:35encountered me sitting up at 28,000 ft
33:37on the ridge on first light on the 26th
33:39of May.
33:40And
33:42uh they immediately leapt into action,
33:44you know, giving me the oxygen,
33:45something to drink, um putting my
33:47clothes back on. They weren't all off,
33:49but I was working on it. And um
33:52uh
33:53you know, my my gloves were off, my
33:55balaclava was off. I mean, I was you
33:57know, I was
33:58in a very serious situation. And uh
34:01so, they immediately got to work and and
34:05they waited 4 hours, 5 hours till uh a
34:08Sherpa from
34:09uh my team, a couple of Sherpas came up
34:12with an oxygen for me. And by that
34:14stage, I
34:15had a bit to drink, I didn't want to
34:17eat.
34:17Oxygen was great, the sun was warm, and
34:20I was able to get down. I mean, it was
34:21an extraordinary effort, but I managed
34:23to get down. But what didn't get picked
34:26up in the media, and when I I was just I
34:29was a mess, you know?
34:31I was a mess for for months, really. And
34:34um
34:35what didn't get reported was the fact
34:36that there were four Sherpas who had
34:38spent had a 19-hour day
34:41between 29,000 and 28,000 ft. They had
34:45run out of oxygen.
34:46Uh and you know, I had cerebral edema.
34:49I've rescued someone with cerebral
34:50edema. They're you know, they just
34:52they're they're really a handful. And I
34:54was even being more than a handful.
34:57I was a whole uh jeez. You're a big guy.
35:00Yeah, yeah. But not only was I a big
35:01guy, but I wanted to jump off the
35:02Kangshung face. I I was I I wanted to go
35:05up the mountain. Apparently, there were
35:06three black women up there I wanted to
35:07have a meeting with. So, I mean,
35:09I mean, that's quite a motivation, but I
35:11mean, you know, so these Sherpas managed
35:14to drag me down. And uh and they got me
35:16to that point at 28,000 ft. Now, there's
35:18a huge difference between, you know,
35:21just below 29,000 where things went
35:23wrong for me and 28,000, because the
35:25Second Step is in between, and that is
35:28the big barrier. And so, they got me to
35:30a point where Dan Mazur and his team
35:34were then able to to
35:36to ensure my survival. And those Sherpas
35:38didn't get a mention in the media, just
35:40because no one knew that part of the
35:42story, cuz I was the only one in who
35:43knew what had happened. And I didn't
35:45even know what happened until the
35:46Sherpas told me. You know? So, cuz they
35:50made it made it They might have made it
35:51up, too.
35:52Cuz they are good jokers.
35:54But you know, you know, that that's a
35:56that's a good point there, Lincoln,
35:57because again, having witnessed what
35:59goes on with with the rescues that
36:01happen on Everest, based on what I've
36:03seen last year and when I was there in
36:04'95,
36:05the rescues are all done by Sherpas.
36:07And uh all the communications and the
36:09guidance comes from base camp, from guys
36:11like Russell Brice and the other
36:13expedition leaders who sit in base camp
36:15with very good communications, and they
36:16know how to orchestrate stuff. But
36:18they're smart enough to know that only
36:20the Sherpas have the physical capability
36:23of doing the sort of stuff that
36:24Lincoln's describing. Is there ever an
36:27instance of sort of a racist
36:29uh
36:30attitude of oh, we can send the Sherpas
36:32up? I don't really see it that way. I
36:34don't really see it that way at all.
36:36The Sherpas are actually really
36:38willing and able. They they
36:41they're professionals and paid to do it,
36:43and they see that as their job.
36:45And you know, by and large, they are
36:47incredibly sympathetic to your plight.
36:50You know, again and again, you hear
36:51these stories like I wouldn't be here
36:53without the Sherpas. The Sherpas saved
36:55me, you know? You hear it I heard it a
36:57lot when I was at Everest. Yeah.
36:59Well, unfortunately, but they don't get
37:00their credit, really, do they? Mhm.
37:02Unfortunately, there's always the
37:03exception.
37:06And um
37:07uh
37:09I'd be reluctant to talk about it, but
37:11um one of the things that did happen to
37:12me on Everest last year,
37:14well,
37:16there were a couple of Sherp- Sherpas
37:17who uh
37:19uh
37:21resented my
37:22situation. And I guess I didn't help,
37:24because um
37:26But anyway, it it this it's I'm do
37:28mention this incident in my book,
37:29because it was witnessed by someone
37:30else.
37:31But basically,
37:33uh
37:36Mhm. How can I summarize this?
37:39Basically,
37:41uh
37:42the you know, it's very easy to get
37:44irritable at high altitude, and that can
37:46escalate. And basically, that's what
37:47happened. And so, uh the Sherpas' job
37:51was to get me down the mountain, and
37:53they decided that the the way to do this
37:56was to intimidate me.
37:57And so, they took away my ice axe, and
38:01um
38:02And of course, the problem with that is
38:03then I fall over, cuz it was fresh snow.
38:05And I said, "Well, okay, guys." And they
38:06wanted me to go first.
38:07And so, I suggested, "Well, one of one
38:09of you go behind." I speak very bad
38:11Nepali, but
38:12so, I could I was communicating. Uh
38:14there was no misunderstanding about
38:16that. Um
38:18you know, I suggested, "One of you guys
38:20hold the rope at the back, one of you
38:21guys hold it at the front, I'll be able
38:22to balance better, we'll get down much
38:25more quickly." And they just wouldn't do
38:26it. And I kept falling in the snow, and
38:28they threatened to throw my oxygen in
38:29the way, and I begged them not to do
38:31that.
38:32And I you know, I kept going on, and
38:33then eventually um
38:35one of them started took the ice axe,
38:36one of them took the ice axe, started
38:37hitting me with it.
38:39And um uh not just sort of like tap tap
38:42tap, you know? It was like wham, you
38:44know? And I've actually got uh
38:45photos of this where I put my arm up
38:47like that and big bruises across there,
38:49and this is through the down suit and
38:50all the other stuff I had underneath.
38:52So, this is not what you expect from
38:53your average Sherpa, and this is not
38:54your average Sherpa. But you also have
38:56to remember that this is
38:59this is cowboy land. Like this is, you
39:02know, uh
39:04it's you know, it's
39:06It's the wild west. It's the wild west,
39:08and those guys it's Cormac McCarthy
39:09country, you know? It's um
39:12it was the end of the season. I don't
39:14those guys had probably summited
39:15Everest. They'd carry loads up and down.
39:17They'd been they were pulling they'd
39:18been
39:20uh they'd been asked to go up while
39:22they're in the process of dismantling a
39:23camp. So,
39:25uh they'd had enough.
39:26And there are Sherpas I know who do
39:28resent some of the attitudes that that
39:31that they perceive that Westerners have.
39:33And the Westerners Westerners don't
39:35necessarily have that that attitude, but
39:37some people they've never been to Asia
39:38before, they don't know how to respond,
39:39and and sometimes they un- unwittingly
39:43show disrespect. And uh the Sherpas are
39:45very good with that because really part
39:47of Buddhism is really if there's some
39:49problem it's not with you, it's with the
39:51other person. And if you're reacting
39:54badly against it, forget about it cuz
39:55really, you know,
39:57it's all within yourself to find a a way
40:00to sit happily with whatever's going
40:02with you. Great. That much great
40:03philosophy. It's very hard to put into
40:05place sometimes, especially at 28,000
40:07ft.
40:08So, that's just a different take on the
40:11on the Sherpa situation.
40:14It being the the wild west in some of
40:16these places, I wonder
40:19if some of these high-profile, highly
40:22publicized incidents have changed
40:27changed anything in some of these
40:28places. And I know Jim and on
40:31on Denali
40:32in the in the aftermath of the 1967
40:35incident, things did change quite a lot,
40:36right?
40:37Yeah, things changed dramatically. And I
40:39think
40:40if you look at Denali today, I think you
40:42find one of the most massive, expert,
40:44and effective search and rescue mountain
40:46search and rescue operations on Earth.
40:48And although it you know took a number
40:51of years for that to evolve, the
40:52beginning of it was that July 1967
40:56tragedy. In the aftermath, the park
40:59service and mountaineers like Lou
41:02Whittaker and others realized that a
41:04horrible horrible mistake had been made
41:06and they they did make sincere efforts
41:09after that to
41:11for example make sure that the park
41:12service had radios, which they didn't
41:15routinely in '66 or '67. They had to
41:17borrow one from their plumber to be able
41:19to
41:20Really, to communicate with the Wilcox
41:22group.
41:24Brad Washburn made a suggestion that
41:26eventually became fact, which was the
41:28establishment of a station at about 14-3
41:31where both an aid station and a research
41:34station where Peter Hackett has since
41:36done so much great work and which has
41:37been been of assistance to countless
41:39climbers. So, and also
41:43another thing that's so important. If
41:45you go to the to Denali today, you'll
41:46find mountaineering rangers all over the
41:48mountain. I mean highly capable, highly
41:50experienced.
41:52Back in that day, there was one and he
41:54was forced to remain down at the bottom.
41:56So, yeah, there's been a huge huge
41:59change as a result of that particular
42:00incident. What what about in the
42:02Himalaya? There've been changes on these
42:04highly commercialized peaks in the way
42:06the way things operate as a result I
42:09think of some of these high-profile
42:11incidents. You know, you have to rely on
42:13yourself out there.
42:15You're dealing with you know Nepal,
42:17Tibet,
42:19Pakistan.
42:20You might get helicopter rescue here and
42:21there.
42:23Increasingly so, but there's not an
42:25organized structure such as
42:27Jim's talking about. It's it's
42:29it's the wild west. And and that's why
42:31these outfits that I've encountered in
42:34you know, this job last this year of
42:36reporting about it.
42:38Um
42:39That's why they've developed pretty
42:40sophisticated communication systems and
42:43they really really do
42:44um
42:45a lot of training and and very careful
42:48selection of the Sherpas that work for
42:49him. Russell's got 29 Sherpas who work
42:51for him. Mhm.
42:53Russell
42:55he masterminds or his Sherpas do it. All
42:58the fixing of rope on the mountain. They
42:59make sure the rope is fixed well. You
43:01you can complain about like, "Oh my god,
43:03they fixed rope the entire mountain to
43:04the summit." Yeah, that's kind of uh
43:06against certain ethics of climbing in
43:07some ways, but that's what's happened to
43:09that mountain.
43:10And as far as the radio communications
43:12go, they're very very good,
43:14sophisticated, reliable radios.
43:16And everyone's got one.
43:18So,
43:19that's how they they self-rescue. In the
43:21in the process, they they end up
43:23rescuing lots of other people who don't
43:25have all that wherewithal, equipment,
43:27and experience.
43:29But I don't think you're ever going to
43:30see a scene really that
43:32you know, in the US they can create that
43:35kind of safety on on Denali.
43:38But it just can't be done in in
43:40countries like Tibet, China, and and
43:42Nepal. It's just not really going to
43:43happen. Mhm.
43:45I'm curious if there if you folks know
43:49of incidents
43:50uh
43:51sort of after the fact if people that
43:53were involved in rescues or might have
43:57been
43:58or were unable to help, if they had sort
44:01of a survivor's guilt or some sort of
44:05wishing they'd done things differently.
44:06And I know Jim, obviously in your book
44:08you spent great deal of time reviewing
44:10the the few survivors of that incident
44:12and
44:13uh
44:14I wonder if they or if any of the
44:16officials in in charge
44:18came to wish they had done things
44:20differently. Well, I can I can cite two
44:22interesting examples about that. One of
44:23the fellows who survived was a um
44:25a huge giant of a man named Jerry Lewis
44:28and
44:29he was he was also one of the ones who
44:31suffered most from altitude. He did not
44:33have that genetic blessing of
44:34acclimatizing well.
44:36And of all the the fellows who did
44:39survive, I think he has been impacted
44:43um most severely by survivor's guilt.
44:46When he and I started to look at the
44:48images, his slides of the of the
44:50expedition,
44:52within minutes he broke down and started
44:53weeping. And and over and over again he
44:56said, "I wish I wish I wish I could have
44:59done more." You know, it was a it was a
45:00very moving moment. Um
45:03The other
45:04interesting example of that was a a
45:07taped interview that I was able to
45:09listen to with George Hall, who was the
45:11superintendent of of McKinley as it was
45:13called, McKinley National Park in those
45:14days.
45:15George Hall passed away before I was
45:17able to interview him directly, but in
45:19this interview that he did give about 10
45:22years earlier, he was asked questions
45:24about the um
45:25the Denali incident and he said that um
45:30when he first
45:32got a telephone message saying that
45:34there were seven men up high and they
45:36had not been heard from
45:38for a long time,
45:40he his reaction was and this is how he
45:42said it on the tape. He said, "I just I
45:44wanted I wanted them to be alive. I
45:46wanted them to be alive."
45:48And you could hear the emotion and the
45:50tears and the grief in his voice. And so
45:52I think
45:53ultimately I think George knew that he
45:54had he had not done the best that could
45:57be done for those men. And I think he
45:58carried that grief within himself and
46:00that guilt for the rest of his life.
46:03Interesting.
46:04Okay, I some questions. I would ask
46:06questioners to please try to keep it to
46:09a question and and limit your actual
46:11comments. I'd like to hear from the
46:12panelists. So, Mark, do you want
46:15Uh yeah, I wondered if you could address
46:18the issues of ethics in terms of
46:21where by using oxygen we're getting many
46:24people who are not necessarily capable
46:26at very high altitudes, in which case
46:28they're not capable of rescuing. I
46:31appreciate what Greg said about the kind
46:33of
46:33uh your humanitarian, you're just guided
46:36by your principles as a human. But what
46:38we have now, at least on Circus Maximus,
46:41is so many people who are above their
46:44ability.
46:45They didn't put the ropes in. They
46:47didn't carry the stuff up. They're not
46:49actually capable of rescuing. So now
46:51we're using Sherpas to rescue people.
46:54And I wondered if you could address
46:56whether or not
46:57um we should be looking at how this
46:59structure is first implemented by
47:02allowing oxygen on the mountain about by
47:04allowing having fixed ropes all the way
47:05to top by allowing
47:07so many people to be kind of pampered
47:10along the way to the summit.
47:13Can I take that?
47:14It's a hell of a thorny question, isn't
47:16it? And it's not it's not as if I
47:19I'm not in support of guiding on
47:20Everest. I'm probably I'm I'm probably
47:22against guiding on Everest. I'm just
47:25it's there to stay. And I went there as
47:27a journalist and just looked at it,
47:29observed it, reported about it.
47:31Um
47:33The way you get if you're a guide,
47:36commercial operator, the way you get
47:37people up Everest is to stick oxygen on
47:39their bodies.
47:40Uh plug them into a bottle of oxygen
47:42from relatively low down from you know,
47:457,000
47:46around 7,000 m.
47:48Um
47:50Cuz what are you trying to do? You're
47:50trying to give people what they're paid
47:52for, which is the summit.
47:54Uh
47:56Same with fixing ropes. That creates
47:58safety.
47:59That line of fixed ropes, I'm not in
48:01favor of it either.
48:03Um but it's there.
48:05And that actually creates a lot of
48:07safety. If If there were no fixed ropes
48:08or less fixed ropes, you'd certainly see
48:10someone falling off.
48:12But that's true. Most of the people who
48:13are on the mountain as clients these
48:16days are incredibly inexperienced. And
48:18guys like Russell said to me that he's
48:20been guiding Everest for 20 years
48:22approximately. And he said that the and
48:24I climbed it with him in '95
48:26not as a client so much. I think I was a
48:28proper climber in those days, but um
48:31you know,
48:32his his average client was a much better
48:35climber than the clients you get today
48:38on Everest. And there was literally one
48:41individual on the mountain who pulled a
48:42crampon out on the first day when that
48:45person was supposed to put crampons on
48:46their boot and put the crampon on upside
48:48down.
48:50Really, I watched this.
48:51Those people wouldn't be there if it
48:52wasn't for oxygen though.
48:54Well, they wouldn't be there if it
48:55wasn't for
48:56commercial operations. I think Lincoln,
48:59last night you addressed this in the
49:01comments
49:02after your your talk in the smaller in
49:04the Margaret Mead theater. You you said
49:05that you thought you would have been
49:07better off without oxygen. Is that Oh.
49:10Well, yeah. I can't remember quite what
49:11the context was. But I mean if you're
49:12not using oxygen, if you're acclimated
49:14to not using oxygen, then you're much
49:17less likely to uh
49:19uh become a fatality when your oxygen
49:21runs out or something goes wrong with
49:23it. That was the point I was making last
49:24night. But I think with with Mark's
49:26question, I think Russell is the the
49:29perfect example of how commercial
49:31expedition should be run, which is like
49:34over those 19 years or whatever it is
49:35he's been doing that.
49:37He had one Sherpa die of altitude
49:39sickness last year and another guy died
49:42um a couple of year in 2003 snowboarding
49:44the north face.
49:46Apart from that, everybody all those
49:48clients have survived. He's got a
49:50telescope, he knows what's going on,
49:52he's got it all charted what he he every
49:56one of his clients he's got all these
49:57stat that stats about times it takes. He
50:00knows when to tell them to turn back.
50:03And he's got such a he's such a strong
50:05guy he can talk someone back from 50 m
50:08below the summit. And that's the way
50:10that these trips have to run now because
50:12when you're a client you have no idea
50:14what it's going to be like at 8,000 m.
50:16So when you pay your money you don't
50:18know you might be you know paying for
50:20your death warrant. I mean it's So you
50:22really as a client you have a huge
50:23responsibility to provide those No sorry
50:26as a guide as a guiding operation you
50:28have a huge responsibility to to have
50:31that situation in place so you don't get
50:34that sort of
50:35And and Mark you you're you're
50:38your phrase you said you know allowing
50:40oxygen and allowing fixed ropes
50:43you know well you I think you know
50:45anyway what I'm going to say here but
50:48you're talking
50:49Nepal Tibet
50:51Pakistan where it like as I said before
50:53it's it's the expeditions that kind of
50:55create the the system.
50:58It's not the government or the local
51:00community or something like that. Uh so
51:03it's not like someone can
51:05Hey
51:06Yeah ethics. Well well how how can you
51:08have how can you have oxygen allowed or
51:10not allowed?
51:12It's like it's got a right. It's like
51:14dream or not.
51:16It's like you know it's like we don't
51:18allow chocolate on this mountain you
51:19know. No one No one can eat chocolate.
51:22It's bad for your teeth.
51:26Yeah it's like bolts. So we do have this
51:28ethical issue about So let's not allow
51:29bolts. Does that work? But trouble with
51:32Everest is that
51:33you get people who don't understand
51:34bolts. I mean they don't even know what
51:35a bolt is. Yeah. Or a crampon. Or a
51:38crampon.
51:41Right correct? Yeah. A long time ago I
51:43wrote some story about guiding on
51:45Everest when it when it first all
51:47started and one of the reputable guides
51:50said well the only real
51:52criteria for inclusion on one of my
51:54trips is the ability to write a check.
51:56Right. And then when I when the fact
51:58checkers showed that to this guy he said
51:59I never said that.
52:01And I said yes you did but he didn't
52:03want he didn't want to cop to it.
52:05Let's take another question.
52:07Uh you've talked about the morality or
52:10the expectation between fellow
52:12mountaineers.
52:14The question that I would have is
52:17what is the expectation of the
52:19mountaineers on the local government or
52:22the government to be prepared to
52:24um put a rescue operation into place
52:28and to be prepared to fund the preferred
52:31preparedness of that operation as well
52:33as the the cost associated with it.
52:36And so what is what is what is the
52:38expectation
52:40of people
52:41well
52:42mountaineers who go out into the wild
52:44west environment
52:46and then ethically there's a there's a
52:49there's an expectation question and
52:51there's also morality and and a and an
52:53ethics question of what should the local
52:57people the local government be prepared
53:00to do because there's two sides to it.
53:03They are definitely benefiting from the
53:04tourist trade that comes into the area
53:07but there's also a cost associated with
53:09doing that and and who should bear that
53:11cost?
53:12Well the farmers should bear that cost
53:14because uh
53:17Nepal is one of the poorest countries in
53:19in
53:20in the world and Tibet which is you know
53:22now part of China is
53:24well it's got all sorts of issues apart
53:26from no result well
53:29you you can't expect those countries the
53:31governments. I mean where the the
53:33there's not enough money to build
53:34schools hospitals and all that sort of
53:36stuff which is why so many people who
53:39have spent a long time in the Himalaya
53:40get involved in projects to try and
53:42address those things because that the
53:44even though tourism is a huge industry
53:47in Nepal it's not big enough to to deal
53:49with the basic things that we take for
53:51granted here. So it's up to the if
53:53people are running guiding businesses
53:55that's the way to to
53:57to run expeditions and and if you um
54:01if you don't want to go on a guided trip
54:03well you save up your money and off you
54:04go and you you get all the gadgets you
54:06want all the oxygen you want what it
54:08however you want to do it you set the
54:10risk parameters. It's not the
54:11responsibility of those
54:13of those those those countries. That's
54:16I'm very clear on that's how I see it
54:18anyway. You know on Denali now you have
54:20a classic example
54:22by contrast of the law of unintended
54:24consequences. I mean it's become almost
54:26a cliche to say that the massive search
54:29and rescue capability on Denali has now
54:31contributed to many probably more people
54:34who shouldn't be on the mountain being
54:35on the mountain there than even on Mount
54:37Everest. And so I think
54:40you know if you can write a check today
54:41for $200 you can get a permit to climb
54:43McKinley.
54:45Uh
54:45back in '67 the ex the expectation was
54:49was much much different. There had only
54:51been two significant rescue efforts
54:53before '67 one the John Day
54:56epic in 1960 and then the winter
54:58expedition in in earlier in 1967.
55:01So I think today it's it's absolutely
55:03true that people who many people who go
55:05to Denali believe that there is
55:08a a fail-safe parachute underneath them
55:11and I think if you talk to any of the
55:13guides up there as I have they see that
55:15as as a definite negative.
55:18Next question.
55:21Uh I have a question for you Greg and
55:24you were talking about uh commercial
55:25guiding being here to stay or at to
55:28Everest stay.
55:30And
55:31it's by being there and by being a part
55:35of the circus
55:36how do you come to terms with
55:39um
55:40accepting that and uh not feeling like
55:43you're actually contributing to the
55:44circus? It's the question number two
55:46before you go on.
55:48Is um
55:50were you involved with the reality show
55:52that was taking place there or how how
55:55what was your involvement there?
55:56Okay well the first question I do it for
55:58the money.
56:00I'll be blunt.
56:01You know I I got a call they said you
56:03want to go to Everest and write on the
56:05website we'll pay you this much. I said
56:07yeah.
56:09Secondly um
56:10did I contribute to it? Well in so far
56:12as I was writing about it probably so.
56:15But I
56:16uh I set myself some standards to write
56:19accurately.
56:21And
56:22we also had on on maybe a tangential
56:24point to to what you're asking is uh
56:27Russell and I got together.
56:28Russell Brice and I and and you know
56:30talked about let's have some parameters
56:32for this website. Let's let's not be
56:35really sleazy.
56:37And one of the parameters we had was if
56:39there's a death or a serious accident
56:42there'll be a moratorium on reporting it
56:44on the web until the families have been
56:46notified. That was our parameter.
56:49And that wasn't anyone else's parameter
56:51like I said 20 odd websites going on
56:53seemingly at Everest at the same time.
56:56Uh and we did that you know we
56:59made sure that at least on that one
57:00little moral issue
57:02we were you know Wasn't of a person.
57:05an agreement like that a year or two ago
57:08where all the expeditions on one side of
57:09the mountain had agreed that they
57:11wouldn't uh
57:13report they would wait a certain amount
57:15of time or until certain facts have been
57:17confirmed before reporting any sort of
57:19uh an accident and it seemed like it
57:22broke down almost immediately. Which
57:24side? I believe it was on the north
57:26side.
57:27I don't really remember that um I think
57:29I think that might be true though but I
57:30don't really remember. But you could you
57:32could see how it would break down. There
57:33were people reporting things you know
57:35there were
57:37there were blogs listed and you could
57:38look at them occasionally and I couldn't
57:40really tell whether they were on Everest
57:41or you know
57:43some other not in Tibet place but
57:46um
57:47there was just reporting going on about
57:50everywhere.
57:52Accurate not accurate. And
57:54you know I I don't I don't think people
57:56really understand the consequences of
57:58the as of what it does to people if if
58:00you find out from um
58:03you know someone phones you up and says
58:04well I just saw on a website that uh you
58:07know your husband just disappeared on
58:09Everest. You know that's pretty
58:11devastating but I think a lot of people
58:12just don't think of the moral
58:15of the emotional consequence to doing
58:16that.
58:17Next question please.
58:20Um
58:21sort of a question about conflict of
58:23obligation with these huge guiding
58:25parties up on Everest. Is is there sort
58:28of a conflict with the guides to get
58:31their high paying customers up to the
58:33top and almost ignore what might be
58:35going on
58:37on the sidelines?
58:38And sort of conversely with that the
58:40people that are in the group going up
58:42Everest you say that as long as they
58:43have the ability to cut the check they
58:45can get to the top.
58:47They themselves
58:49um
58:50probably just
58:52aren't cognizant of the fact that they
58:54have an obligation to help others on the
58:56mountain.
58:57Do you find
58:59that those conflicts exist?
59:01You want to say something about that?
59:03Well I guess if you're running an
59:04expedition your hands are full running
59:06your expedition.
59:07Uh but I know too that that Russell
59:09Brice um
59:11you know and other
59:13people do make rescues. I know Alex
59:15Abramov rescued someone on Cho Oyu last
59:17year and I mean it just happens and so
59:22it's it's uh
59:26yeah I think
59:27it's like you can't uh
59:31it's it's too I mean there's hundreds of
59:33people at each base camp. There're
59:35probably 500 people on the the north
59:37side of Everest last year. I mean
59:39admittedly a lot of them were just going
59:40up to advanced base camp and and uh a
59:42lot of them get to the north column
59:44think wow, this is a lot and I'm going
59:45home now. I mean it's So there's a lot
59:47but there's a lot of people you can't
59:48You can't sort of You've just got to
59:50focus on your area of responsibility,
59:52which is obviously the expedition that
59:53you're with. And like like the guy in
59:56the on the street in the pub and and if
59:58you see them and you're there and you
59:59can help do. I mean, that is what
1:00:01happens. And that's what the media
1:00:03doesn't sort of identify because so many
1:00:05of those
1:00:06straightforward rescues just don't
1:00:07really make the news because well,
1:00:10what's the news? There's no death.
1:00:12There's no controversy. Who wants to
1:00:13hear about it? So there's never been a
1:00:15case where a guide or or
1:00:18expedition organizer has turned a blind
1:00:20eye to something that was going on that
1:00:22you're aware of
1:00:23in order to make sure that his
1:00:24expedition was successful? Hey, I I
1:00:27wouldn't have an example to say one way
1:00:29or the other but you can bet your life
1:00:31there's there've been breakdowns of uh
1:00:35of the morality in this respect. I mean,
1:00:37I know there have been I'm not going to
1:00:38uh
1:00:39you know, tell second, third, fourth
1:00:41hand stories but Russell Brice will sit
1:00:43around with the uh bottle of whiskey
1:00:47and he'll just start telling you these
1:00:48stories of appalling moral breakdowns
1:00:51that he's encountered over the years.
1:00:52And those are his stories. I probably
1:00:54shouldn't even tell them but he's like
1:00:56um
1:00:57he's got thousands on thousands. He's
1:00:59got many many many stories
1:01:01of uh
1:01:03yeah, really regrettable examples
1:01:06uh of people not helping each other. And
1:01:09I think that's why he uh he he's
1:01:11portrayed as a pretty gruff customer um
1:01:13person, you know. And he's got very
1:01:15little patience with fools
1:01:18uh and uh
1:01:19but you know what? If the shit's hitting
1:01:21the fan, he is the guy to go to because
1:01:24he will do what he can to help you even
1:01:26if he's never seen you before.
1:01:28He's that kind of a person. I'm not
1:01:30trying to sell his trips, people but
1:01:32but he really is. He he he is uh
1:01:35extremely competent and at the end of
1:01:37the day he
1:01:39he
1:01:40he embodies the kind of morality I think
1:01:42that we're we're
1:01:43hedging around in this discussion.
1:01:46I don't know if that helps your
1:01:47question.
1:01:48Well,
1:01:49not directly because it it
1:01:51it you make it sound like But the
1:01:52clients can't do much. I'll tell you
1:01:53that. I've I've interviewed guides
1:01:55extensively on Everest for these
1:01:58websites and uh
1:02:00uh you know, they say hey look, you
1:02:01know, if if it's the guides and the
1:02:03Sherpas who are going to keep people
1:02:05alive and get them up and down. The the
1:02:07clients um
1:02:09they're they're barely able to, you
1:02:11know, get up and down the mountain. So
1:02:12if something is happening, don't expect
1:02:14help from the clients.
1:02:16It's my observation and
1:02:19I've seen it, too. Which sort of brooks
1:02:21that should they be up there? I mean, if
1:02:23they can't help Yeah, well, that's a
1:02:25good question.
1:02:26themselves, they can't help help others.
1:02:27Well, it's a different
1:02:29It's an unanswerable There's a
1:02:30difference between helping yourself and
1:02:32helping others.
1:02:33Uh I mean, if you can get up and down
1:02:35the mountain without inconveniencing
1:02:37someone, then that's great.
1:02:40Uh and most people are lucky happy
1:02:42lucky enough to do that without
1:02:44encountering
1:02:45uh some dreadful disaster.
1:02:48You know, I kind of regard what goes on
1:02:50on Everest as really having almost
1:02:52nothing to do with climbing.
1:02:54You know, I call it Everesting.
1:02:56Everything else Everything else is a
1:02:58separate sub sport. And uh well, most of
1:03:01my Yeah, so all this you know, I'm not
1:03:04like pro all this guided stuff on
1:03:06Everest. I'm just
1:03:07a climber who also happens to be a
1:03:09writer and a journalist and I observe
1:03:11things. So I'm sort of wearing two hats
1:03:13when I'm there. But yeah, everything
1:03:16that goes on at Everest has got very
1:03:17little to do with climbing in my
1:03:18opinion. We probably only got time for
1:03:20one more question. So Barry?
1:03:22Yeah, it's not an ethical question but
1:03:23Lincoln, is there what would you do
1:03:25different on your summit day? Did you
1:03:26learn anything up there?
1:03:28Uh
1:03:30I would have taken some decks, I reckon.
1:03:32Um
1:03:35What would I have done differently?
1:03:36elaborate on what that is?
1:03:37Oh, decks. Yeah, that's like cards. You
1:03:38know, you have to
1:03:41Something to do overnight? Yeah, that's
1:03:43right.
1:03:44Sherpas would have wanted that. Yeah,
1:03:45yeah, they would. Yeah, dexamethasone.
1:03:47It's a steroid that sort of kick-starts
1:03:49you.
1:03:50Um
1:03:51it's probably illegal. You can buy it in
1:03:52Asia. Uh
1:03:54I mean, the thing actually, you know, I
1:03:56I think my uh moral issue is not to go
1:03:59to that sort of altitude again because
1:04:01you should get yourself off the
1:04:02mountain. I've got no idea why cerebral
1:04:05edema hit me.
1:04:07It I didn't have the classic symptoms uh
1:04:10and it would I feel it would be uh
1:04:12immoral for me to go and try and find
1:04:13out what happened because I might end up
1:04:15putting other people's lives in danger
1:04:17again. So uh
1:04:20I think uh I what I would have liked to
1:04:22have done was had an extra 6 months of
1:04:24training. That could have helped but um
1:04:26that wasn't an option for me.
1:04:28That's beforehand.
1:04:30So self-reliance in the end uh
1:04:33True.
1:04:34I thank you all very much for coming. Uh
1:04:37it's great talk. Thank you very much.

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