YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Esther Perel in ‘Where Should We Begin?’: Episode 1

Esther Perel in ‘Where Should We Begin?’: Episode 1 — Transcript

by Audible · 6,764 words · 1,004 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:01it's not the affair that hurts it's the
0:04Betrayal it's that somebody else was
0:08more
0:10important what you're about to hear is
0:12an unscripted one-time couples
0:15counseling session it contains mature
0:17themes and listener discretion is
0:19advised for the purposes of maintaining
0:21confidentiality names and some
0:23identifiable characteristics have been
0:26removed but their voices and their
0:28stories are real
0:33we've been married for 11 years and we
0:35have three little children and we build
0:38a great life for ourselves then
0:41everything kind of fell apart because of
0:44what he did I was unfaithful to her for
0:47over a year she found out about that not
0:50by just like me coming clean but
0:52actually kind of finding out about it
0:55part of my anger is coming from that I
0:58feel like I've done a lot for him change
1:01my religion for
1:02him my wife is Russian Orthodox I'm a
1:08Muslim American we come from very
1:11different
1:12backgrounds but I went for him you know
1:16and at the end he turns around and does
1:19this I think I need to show my partner
1:24that she could trust me again but I also
1:28personally need to feel like she is in
1:31love with me and wants to be in this
1:34relationship
1:37so so here we are with the couple one
1:40year after the revelation of the
1:43husband's
1:45infidelity and while they would love to
1:49be able to reconcile and continue as a
1:53family the wound the violation of trust
1:57the
1:58hurt the disillusion M that she
2:01experiences feels
2:04insurmountable I honestly don't even
2:08know if I want to have this relationship
2:09anymore I don't know if I love him if I
2:12can ever love him after this how do you
2:14work on your feelings how do you love
2:17somebody
2:22again this is where should we begin with
2:25Ester
2:28Perell
2:33I'm not that angry anymore it's almost
2:36like I just don't care about it like a
2:38little bit of indifference and um we're
2:42more like
2:44friends no
2:48sex
2:50because I don't want to
2:53because I don't
2:56know because when I gave myself to you
3:00you didn't respect it and now I want
3:02going to protect myself yes say it in
3:06your own
3:09words I think because I've was hurt to
3:12the point
3:14where I just don't feel intimate anymore
3:17so I feel that we have a family we have
3:21three children and we get alone very
3:24well on all the
3:27levels except that level
3:31and that was the affair it just killed
3:35it for me do you miss it and him or the
3:39two of you in that way
3:43no I feel sad about it that everything
3:47had to change like
3:50that because I
3:52didn't plan for my life to turn like
3:54that but then I also see a lot of people
3:58going through this after having little
4:00kids and things are different and
4:03there's a lot of Affairs around from
4:05what I see so maybe it is normal I don't
4:09know but it's not the affair that hurts
4:12it's the
4:14Betrayal like it's not the sex part
4:18it's that somebody else was more
4:21important I guess I don't
4:25know I am hoping that the time just will
4:28put things in place because I can see
4:31was the time like the even like 2 months
4:33ago I was so angry like uncontrollably
4:37angry so maybe that was my Angry stage
4:40and now
4:41better but you're not that angry because
4:44you're
4:45numb what you call indifferent mhm and
4:50that's not
4:52necessarily where you want to stay how
4:55do you fix
4:57that it I'm assuming just time right no
5:01time never exists in its own it's what
5:04happens in
5:06it you have to give it
5:09meaning you have to shape
5:11it how I think you've just began now you
5:15began now when you started to
5:18say there's something to the
5:21Betrayal and I don't know that he has
5:23heard that and from that
5:26place I don't
5:28understand
5:30I think you tell me that there's a part
5:32of you that wonders if he ever truly
5:37appreciated how much you had given
5:39yourself to
5:41him I don't think he does because he
5:46said I wasn't paying attention to him I
5:48wasn't there for him I wasn't which I
5:51don't think it's true I had through
5:53little kids and I was home and doing
5:57everything what I sensed was that
6:00trust had not come easy to her and she
6:03had allowed this man to
6:08enter her life she had
6:11completely given herself to him and by
6:14him trampling that by having another
6:18woman become more important than her it
6:21devalued everything she had done it
6:24sapped the meaning out of it and from
6:26that place she did not know how to come
6:28back so she was frozen and her tears
6:34were streaming down her face and
6:37sometimes she didn't even know she was
6:39crying and she was experiencing the
6:42flood of emotions and the frozenness of
6:45emotions at the same
6:49time for me the problem started
6:53much further back than when I chose to
6:59be intimate with somebody else you it
7:01was more about just feeling like I
7:04didn't have like a connection anymore we
7:07didn't talk anymore and and then
7:09eventually it just became easy to you
7:12know you get attention from somebody
7:14else and it just you sort of grab on to
7:17it and and I knew that it was wrong and
7:19I tried to justify it in my head a lot
7:23of different ways but but I didn't stop
7:25it and uh I think we were both
7:30mentally in the same place in this bad
7:34place I just acted upon it much earlier
7:39and much more significantly I mean I
7:41think one of the things was that um and
7:46this was before she knew anything about
7:47me and what was going on and uh and I
7:50kind of woke up in the middle of the
7:51night saw she wasn't home it was very
7:52unlike her and initially she told me I
7:54was just out with her friends and then
7:55we found out that she had gone home with
7:58somebody that she randomly met I believe
8:01her that she's never done that before
8:03and and whatnot but but that instead of
8:06It kind of being a wakeup call to me and
8:08and I wish now that it was just a wakeup
8:11call to me to stop what was going on
8:14that I was doing I just sort of used it
8:16as a way to justify
8:19it this is a couple who is at a very
8:23vulnerable stage in the cycle of Life
8:26they have three young children they have
8:29work lives and they are gradually
8:32becoming more and more disconnected and
8:35estranged from each other they both seek
8:39Comfort attention love
8:43responsiveness in other places but they
8:46also both use the other person's
8:49transgressions to justify their own each
8:53of them has a plot of entitlement and a
8:56series of justifications about why they
8:58could do what they did and why what they
9:01did is less severe than what their
9:03partner did which is not an uncommon
9:09story I thought he was different I met a
9:13lot of
9:14men that I knew not going to be faithful
9:18I knew like maybe they're wealthy maybe
9:22they're
9:23handsome like I thought he was going to
9:25be the man who just going to love me he
9:27had the values the he presented to me I
9:31thought he had such high
9:33values so partially why this is
9:35heartbreaking for me
9:37because he's not what I thought he
9:41was is a whole there's another way of
9:44looking at this is if a man that has
9:46such
9:48values ends up doing something that is
9:50Unthinkable even to
9:52him then there's something important to
9:55figure out
9:57there I don't think think it's
9:59Unthinkable to him I think he's been
10:01like this before during I just didn't
10:06know him
10:07well it's true that you know when I've
10:11been with other people I I have not you
10:14know I haven't been
10:16faithful
10:18but when I got married I was like this
10:21is it like I'm not going to be that way
10:23and I remember even my friends you but
10:25everybody say that everybody say that
10:27when they get married like maybe from
10:29what I learned and maybe but I knew that
10:32the people I was with in the past
10:33weren't the right people and at any time
10:34I wasn't faithful to them it was just
10:36because it was kind of over at that
10:38point and so one of the things that kind
10:40of scared me mentally when I was getting
10:43to that point was I mean I felt like we
10:46had lost this connection did you go to
10:47tell her I didn't and I should have I
10:51wish I did um meaning did you tell her
10:53did the two of you at any point
10:56say something's off here I always did
11:00like about the year before I found out
11:03about the affair I told him listen
11:05you're not home a lot at all you're not
11:08with kids I understand you work hard but
11:10I am
11:11lonely you're not there for me anymore
11:14and he said well you can sit me home but
11:18I'm not going to be happy and I'm
11:20thinking okay I don't want him to be
11:22unhappy I said fine travel do whatever
11:25you want but then I also going to do
11:27what I want so in like when you're just
11:31going to stop you second because you're
11:32looking at me and you're talking to me
11:35and he's shaking his head and shaking
11:37his head so you can both tell me all
11:40kinds of
11:41things right and I can listen to each of
11:44you I'm married to none of you so it's
11:47very
11:48easy okay but you need to reach each
11:52other oh we did we talked so much about
11:55this I see the two of you talking and
11:58you most of the the time you wait for
11:59the other one to be done and then you
12:01start to give your version and you don't
12:02hear and nothing is absorbed your thing
12:05doesn't integrate any of what he says
12:08his thing doesn't integrate anything of
12:10what you say and usually you counter
12:12each other that is not communication I
12:16understand I totally understand him but
12:18there is understand
12:20mentally and there's a way in which you
12:23feel that the other person connects to
12:24it and cares about it and at this point
12:28neither of you really has had the
12:30experience that the other person
12:32actually gets it connects to it cares
12:35about it you may go over the
12:37conversation again and again but you
12:39need a bridge
12:42otherwise you basically are on a mind
12:45field and the next time it will be
12:48you and you will feel
12:50Vindicated and you will have a
12:52competition about who destroyed the
12:54relationship
12:55first I don't think I'll be competing
12:57over anything
13:01at first I think that she is so mad that
13:06she's mad even at me but then I realized
13:09that this is not opposition or
13:11resistance this is what happens
13:13sometimes in the aftermath of pain so
13:17what we often do is we Farm out one half
13:20of the equation so one person becomes
13:23the holder of the positive pole and the
13:25other person becomes the holder of the
13:27negative or reverse but basically it's
13:30called splitting the
13:31ambivalence so at this moment he holds
13:34the flame and he says I believe we can
13:37come back from here and she says yeah
13:40really show me prove it to me but at the
13:44same time I won't make it easy for you
13:46because I will not be duped again and
13:49they are in a standstill at this moment
13:51where a part of her wants to be loved
13:55again and a part of her wants to say to
13:57him I can live without without loving
13:59you and I'll go find myself someone else
14:01too and that's the
14:04Vindication it almost frustrating for me
14:07to hear I married you because you had
14:09good values because I appreciate that
14:13but I at the same
14:15time I feel like we married each other
14:17because we loved each other we love each
14:20other you know and it still frustrates
14:22me that you know a lot of times that
14:25you're just you're okay I I'm happy that
14:28things are better I I mean from a
14:30day-to-day basis things are better you
14:32know there's not the tension and things
14:35like that and I think that's probably
14:36what just gets better with time but I'm
14:38still unhappy about the fact that I feel
14:41like your response has just
14:44been whatever like you know it's just a
14:47new life now and I'm not going to care
14:49anymore I'm not going to do this I'm not
14:51going to do that what we had and still
14:55have is worth fighting for and I'm
14:57hoping that at some some point that
15:00changes in you to say yes it's worth it
15:04to put in the time and the effort and to
15:07to love each other again not just
15:10cohabitate of course I married you
15:12because I loved you but you look at
15:15other things also when you marry people
15:17you look at the person that you think
15:19can last see that this is a partner that
15:22you can survive with for so many years
15:24and get all together that's what I mean
15:26by like I thought had values I mean we
15:30should be able to survive this right I
15:32mean
15:33we this is hopefully the hardest test
15:36we'll ever have but you should survive
15:38it I feel like something died for me
15:41after this like I just cannot get over
15:44this I felt like we had difficult life
15:48like difficult but leading to good right
15:51so I was willing to work for it and I
15:54was happy in that but after you betrayed
15:58me I was
16:00like what was all the hard work
16:05for yeah no I mean I understand how you
16:08feel because I felt the same
16:11way it's very
16:13hard because you want to equalize
16:17it let it exist in its own unique
16:20experience but if you keep saying me too
16:24then her answer is going to be but I
16:26didn't do this yeah together we're going
16:28to aim for a different conversation a
16:30different exchange
16:33okay so how do I do
16:37that I will try to help
16:40you but one of the things you can do
16:43that may be
16:45useful just reflect back you just repeat
16:49to the other person so what I'm hearing
16:52you say
16:53is that forces you to stay on the other
16:56side a little bit longer you don't have
16:59to agree with anything you just have to
17:02be open and
17:03curious okay I can do that
17:08yeah you have both people continuously
17:11saying you don't understand how lonely I
17:16felt and every time one says I felt
17:18lonely the other person says I felt more
17:22so and it's breaking that the more the
17:27more type of
17:29cycle where they compete rather than
17:33empathize so the first part is for me to
17:37see if he can listen to her it could
17:39have been either order there was no
17:42deliberate choice in why I started with
17:44him it just happens to be at that
17:47moment I thought let's start
17:50here so tell me what it is that you're
17:54feeling I feel it was good the love
17:59feeling is
18:00lost that if we just stay
18:03friends sometimes I feel like something
18:06is coming back to me like I
18:08[Music]
18:09am I can hug with you I can go out with
18:12you I can you
18:14know uh I can be intimate with you I
18:17don't know why cuz I don't feel this way
18:20I guess tell him about the experience of
18:23betrayal it hurt experience hurt painful
18:30painful one of the important things for
18:33me would be a guy who loves me do you
18:36think that the Betrayal meant I don't
18:38love
18:39you yeah there was an emotional affair
18:43you guys talk a lot you travel
18:47together so it's not just sex I think it
18:50was more than that for you that's why do
18:54you ask him or do you
18:56suppose I think so he denies that right
19:00do you ever ask no I don't deny that
19:03completely I so I
19:07don't can I
19:09answer answer
19:12um it was not an emotional affair for me
19:15in the sense of like that I felt so
19:18attached to this person that I couldn't
19:20let them go but I think that one of the
19:23things that kind of that I was looking
19:26for that led to it was
19:29companionship and I
19:32think that maybe what maybe we're
19:35talking about the same thing but there
19:37was a companionship aspect to it that I
19:42missed us having and I was trying
19:46to find it somewhere else for sure
19:49because I did feel like that was one of
19:53the things that that I really missed
19:56that you and I had that we didn't have
19:59anymore I get it
20:02because it's the same for me you know
20:05people come home to the kids to the
20:09problems or you have a companionship
20:11that you don't have all this problems
20:14you just have fun and sex this is your
20:18out maybe people need that totally get
20:21it but how unfair is that you know so
20:28but I get it and I'm
20:32thinking like I dated a lot of selfish
20:35guys which I think he's one of
20:39them so when you picked him he was the
20:44golden apple in the basket and now he's
20:47been
20:48relegated to that category called
20:51man right but I also think I
20:55also because I feel like all men are
20:57like that like I feel like everybody I
21:00start asking around and everybody has an
21:03affair so I just don't know what's
21:05normal anymore right but between what is
21:08normal and what is
21:09hurtful I think we are going to stick
21:12with the hurtful okay he also is telling
21:16you in a roundabout way that when he
21:18feels
21:19lonely he seeks
21:21company I was
21:23home well you were home but he didn't
21:26find you now he didn't look for you
21:29either
21:30enough but when he says I didn't find
21:33you you tell him kids normal that's
21:37life but how was I supposed to do it
21:39other way I don't know yet because I
21:43also know that he didn't bother coming
21:44and telling you or you to him we need to
21:48reconnect we need a conversation we need
21:50just a walk we need to hug we need in
21:53the midst of the three young children
21:55which is always we hug and we had
21:59sex during all that time yes but I'm not
22:03talking about that you can have your
22:06routine sex that doesn't mean being
22:09connected come on women have done this
22:11for centuries right and felt nothing so
22:14that is not a proof of anything right
22:16that's how it was but I felt like I had
22:19to have sex with him because he's my
22:21husband and he needs it mhm and no
22:23matter what you know I would give you
22:25sex and then after all that he do I
22:28didn't even want to have sex why did you
22:30come to me if you just have sex with me
22:33you
22:34know so there two people here who could
22:38use learning a little bit of how you go
22:40to the other when you disconnect when
22:43you feel lonely when you have three
22:44young kids and when you've got pretty
22:46much the most stressful period for any
22:48couple for any couple mhm
22:53so inside that is going to be a
22:56depletion depletion of time of resources
22:59of attention of of playfulness of
23:02creativity it's all being
23:04redirected it's very hard for some
23:07people to be able
23:09to just shake it and just say hey hey
23:12meet me in two years but with a smile
23:15that just says I know what's happening
23:16to us so that the complicity is M that's
23:19how I thought it's going to be we're
23:21just it wasn't and it wasn't on your
23:24part and it wasn't on his part in that
23:27sense you you are both actually quite
23:30similar when I don't feel loved by you I
23:35wonder and when I don't feel loved by
23:38you I cut
23:40off
23:42mhm yeah it's true it's true so these
23:46are two mechanisms but isn't it for
23:49everybody like that no there's a few
23:51other
23:51[Laughter]
23:55options you know so the challenge for
23:58you
23:59is how do I come back you can normalize
24:02anything you want you can say oh man man
24:04this man that but you're going to stick
24:07in your back and forth between feeling
24:09deeply wounded and trying to be
24:11indifferent in order to not feel deeply
24:14wounded right indifference helps
24:17yes it's a good analgesic yeah and it
24:22sucks because it's anything but who you
24:24are right so
24:29there's a part of him that wants to try
24:30to tell you I also felt something
24:33betrayal comes in many forms he didn't
24:36feel betrayed he felt
24:37abandoned and you are basically saying
24:40grow
24:42up right and it's not true and I don't
24:46think it's true I don't think he got
24:48abandoned you want to hear or you want
24:50to be right I want to hear then you're
24:53going to have to maybe not be so
24:56right okay
24:59when I meet her I meet a woman who is at
25:03the same
25:04time deeply hurt and deeply trying to
25:07protect herself against the hurt and she
25:10vacillates between intense Romanticism
25:12and cynicism and she challenges
25:15everything I say but in allowing her to
25:17challenge me continuously we gradually
25:20begin to develop a bond and I know that
25:23the bond is emerging when I push back
25:26and she laughs and she laughs and she
25:29feels like I'm holding her and I'm right
25:31there with her and now I can begin to
25:34help her listen to him differently and
25:37not just want him to listen to her all
25:39the
25:41time if he would come to me before the
25:44affair and told me how he felt I am the
25:47person who would be figuring it out from
25:49the second he opened his mouth so ask
25:52him oh I didn't you I know we disagree
25:56on this but I I feel like I did I feel
25:58like I did many times we lay down in bed
26:01or in front of the TV and we start to
26:04talk and and before I can even get
26:07something out or like I get one sentence
26:10out and now it's about like I know the
26:13kids and you know should I go back to
26:15work should I not go back to work what
26:16should I do but like I just it was very
26:19hard for me to talk to you because at
26:22the same time I feel
26:24like maybe what I'm feeling is silly and
26:28maybe I shouldn't like you know it's
26:30hard enough to talk about as it is so
26:32when you start to talk about something
26:34and about anything that's difficult when
26:36I just feel like when the other person
26:39then changes the subject in some ways
26:42and it's hard to get back to I you know
26:44and I wish I wasn't like that but it
26:46just I found that I changed the subject
26:48on purpose it I was trying to get away I
26:51didn't understand what you were talking
26:52about I was trying to keep up with what
26:54you were saying to me I was responding
26:57to that obviously you weren't telling me
26:59the right thing if you tell her I feel
27:03something and she answers with what she
27:07feels what happens to you I feel like
27:10she doesn't care enough about my
27:13feelings to sort of forget about her
27:16feelings for a minute and let's just
27:18focus on mine and maybe I'm wrong but I
27:22I think I try to do that for you a lot
27:24like where I'm just like I'm going to
27:25shut off my feelings and and I'm just
27:28going to try to listen to yours where
27:31somebody's to talk to somebody about my
27:33and where did you learn
27:35that I guess maybe my parents I mean I
27:40had a strange relationship with my
27:42parents because I felt like I was always
27:45very different from my family because
27:47they were like more religious um but I
27:50always kind of felt like I had to live a
27:51little bit of a double life in a
27:54way growing up in a very traditional
27:58Muslim
28:01family he had developed the capacity to
28:06be the son at home that pretended to be
28:09that which his parents expected from him
28:11and then there was the man outside who
28:13did what he really wanted so living in a
28:16dual
28:18reality the faithful one and the
28:21authentic one the traditional Muslim one
28:24and the American one living dual reality
28:27is something that he knew very well and
28:30this is what was reactivated in his
28:32marriage as well when he had an
28:36affair now I think back and you know I
28:39guess hindsight's 2020 and I'm like you
28:41know I yes instead of acting that way I
28:44should have sort of said okay you know
28:46forc I should have forced you to talk to
28:48me I should have you know tried to
28:50figure out what was going
28:52on you weren't happy with our sex life
28:54but I actually was completely unhappy
28:57with our sex life I felt bad telling
29:01you because I felt like you
29:07were not into it I felt like you wanted
29:10me to do everything and I I felt like
29:14everything was very forced
29:17everything can I be a little crude here
29:21um you thought that just because I come
29:23that means that I was satisfied because
29:27you
29:28didn't that and I did that that meant
29:31that it was great for me and terrible
29:32for you but it was terrible for me too
29:35because it was like having sex with
29:38somebody who's just like a a dead body
29:41you know like because I could I know
29:43when you're into it and when you're not
29:45right and I don't mean this to be I look
29:48like
29:50okay okay I I'm not trying to far from
29:53dead bu
29:55okay I'm not saying this to try to like
29:58I'm not like that okay I'm telling you
30:02that I felt that way okay so either
30:04you're going to believe me are maybe not
30:07sexually compatible I don't then how do
30:09we continue with our marriage so number
30:12one I don't think that that's the case
30:14just so we are
30:16clear the conversation about sex that
30:18we're having is less important than the
30:22fact that he's actually insisting on
30:26telling you what his experience
30:29was okay if he he could do the same
30:32thing right now about cooking you
30:35understand I understand I understand
30:38that he wasn't happy with it um do you
30:40know
30:42why no okay then you're not
30:45listening cuz you're listening and
30:47you're basically inside of you saying
30:49that's not who I am that's not how I see
30:51myself I think of myself as a very
30:52sexual woman I'm a very sensual woman
30:54what is he talking about this is not
30:56me it is not me right but that's not
30:59what he's talking
31:00about so I don't understand why it
31:03happened like this between us because an
31:05all other you're not
31:06listening but he never told me that but
31:09he's telling you right now okay and it's
31:12good he's going to continue he's
31:14insisting he because he cares about the
31:15subject enough that this one he's going
31:17to fight for of course he cares matter
31:19he's not getting any sex that's got
31:21nothing to do with it you see the issue
31:24is what he's actually trying to tell you
31:28is that your notion of giving it to him
31:32shoving it down making sure he comes as
31:35fast as possible so it's done with I
31:37hate it that's what he hates that's not
31:40true though it is
31:42true it that's what it became because I
31:46would never come he doesn't care he
31:49would take me I care come in five
31:51minutes and leave me this is our sex
31:54life I did you have good sex with me
31:57before we got married yeah did you it
32:00was good
32:02enough I don't know what that means it
32:05was good
32:07but I don't know for the most part it
32:10was
32:11good say
32:12more I've had
32:15better but I didn't think that that
32:18would be so
32:21important before we had kids before we
32:23were married I mean it was totally
32:26different I didn't also didn't like the
32:30five minutes of sex it was terrible why
32:32did you do why did
32:36you you did I didn't plan you thought
32:39that's what I need to give him and he
32:41did it cuz he thought that's what I
32:42could get I don't think it's true I I
32:44didn't want it to be 5 minutes but he
32:45was done in 5 minutes and gone and then
32:48nobody said
32:51stay he's
32:53tired I'm tired I want to go to sleep he
32:56doesn't want want to have sex at night
32:58he wants to have sex in the morning it
33:01can be like a long romantic sex in the
33:03morning right why not rent a hotel and
33:06start with that to me like when you like
33:09are renting a hotel in your city to have
33:11sex I just can't do it like that you did
33:14it with the girl it wasn't but it was
33:17more it was more about just the
33:19excitement of all right let me stop you
33:21a second
33:22people because you don't tell him much
33:26he doesn't tell you much you let this
33:28thing degrade both of
33:30you you're year into the discovery of
33:34the affair and so we're not in the
33:36crisis mode we're
33:39not but the second phase is what I call
33:42the Insight it is the meaning making why
33:46did this happen how did this happen what
33:48did it mean for you what did you find
33:51there it's a both hand it's what
33:54happened to you and what happened to us
33:56and what can we learn from
33:59it and how did we allow ourselves to
34:01enter a place where we both were quite
34:06unhappy neither of us really felt the
34:08other person is going to hear it he's
34:10going to take it he going to to receive
34:12it just like that without instantly
34:15switching into a blame mode blame and
34:18defense that's the conversation I hear
34:20you're trying to have it doesn't really
34:22matter if it's around sex or about
34:23something else the form is the same once
34:26you have this kind of pattern just about
34:29every conversation will go in it the
34:30same
34:32direction I do feel like all of our
34:35conversations you get very defensive
34:38that like I'm trying
34:40to say something negative about you but
34:43I'm not I'm trying to just tell you sort
34:47of my view on it it doesn't mean it's
34:49right it's just what I feel so here's
34:52the way you can tweak
34:54that she already told you you I was
34:57doing something I didn't that didn't
34:59feel good but I was doing it for you so
35:03when you talk to her include that
35:07neither you liked it nor I liked it and
35:08then it becomes a we statement that's
35:11what I mean by integrating the
35:13experience of the other okay and then
35:17she can do the same you know here I was
35:21trying to be nice and to please you
35:23little did I
35:24know that that wasn't even what you want
35:28and then you can say that's not the
35:30woman I remember so then she doesn't
35:31have to say that's not who I am and then
35:34it's less polarized then you're not
35:36talking from the
35:38extremes the minute you put yourself on
35:41the extreme the other person will defend
35:43themselves what do I have to do
35:46different in the way I
35:48communicate what do I have to do
35:50different that's a beautiful question
35:52first of
35:53all I wish that
35:55you would would hopefully just kind of
35:58listen to what I'm saying without
36:00immediately feeling like I'm attacking
36:02you cuz I promise I'm it's not my
36:05intention with whatever I'm saying to be
36:08attacking you I'm just trying to tell
36:11you my viewpoint but I think I do
36:19now should just got herself
36:23good it's very rare that I just make a
36:26blank statement like this your
36:28communication is
36:31terrible I never knew that I thought
36:33were really good at communic well no
36:36that doesn't mean as a whole but this
36:38thing that I'm watching here
36:42is at the root of a lot of what happens
36:47and
36:48happened is that because we're coming
36:50from different backgrounds and view
36:52things differently and I don't know how
36:55much I would put it on culture as much I
36:57would put it on your family cultures and
37:00your experiences that you
37:02had I do see that it wasn't good for
37:06both of you and that conversation needs
37:08to take
37:09place not what was wrong but how you
37:13change this how you learn sexual
37:16communication I just cannot do that
37:19anymore Cas close sexually like I just
37:23can't something shut
37:25down so here's the idea I don't know
37:29what your relationship is like
37:33sexually but I have a
37:37sense for both of
37:40you it's been massively outcome
37:43driven rather
37:45unimaginative too fast for both of you
37:49and
37:51unsatisfying it's terrible to be with a
37:53man who you feel is only pleasing
37:55himself and it's terrible to be with a
37:57woman who you feel is just giving you
37:58pity
38:00sex so no matter what's going to happen
38:04the first thing is
38:06touch how you touch each other how you
38:08stroke each other how you kiss each
38:10other and zero outcome that's plenty of
38:14outcome but isn't this thing supposed to
38:17happen naturally why is it supposed to
38:20be where the hell did you learn that
38:24BS why is that supposed to be wor
38:29the myth that sex is
38:32natural has done harm to so many people
38:37because it presumes that you should just
38:41know rather than the fact that it is
38:44something that we learn to appreciate to
38:47experience we cultivate it it's an
38:50art and that if you think it's natural
38:53then in fact you often remain ignorant
38:58so here's what I would like to suggest
39:00to you you're going to do it in
39:02writing that was our best way of
39:04communication actually right when we
39:06start texting to each other we could
39:08communicate so you're going to take out
39:10a separate email
39:12address that nobody else
39:14knows it is the one that is reserved for
39:18the couple not for the parents not for
39:22the
39:23Professionals for the role of you as
39:27partner and
39:30lover and you're going to just talk to
39:32each other and there's a certain kind of
39:36intimacy that you have not experienced
39:38in a long
39:41time I totally agree with you and I
39:44think it's amazing and it's great and it
39:46would totally work but that would be a
39:49while
39:50ago what if right now I don't even want
39:52to do that so what do I do
39:57I think you need more from him and him
40:00from you for that matter to know how bad
40:04you
40:06felt it has less to do with what he did
40:08with the other
40:11woman yeah and more to do with what you
40:14did for him that you didn't want to do
40:17to begin with that's the Betrayal yeah
40:22do you understand mhm do you want him to
40:25repeat it
40:27I want him to repeat it I can repeat it
40:30you're you're angry with me not so much
40:34because of what happened with the other
40:37girl but cuz you
40:39felt that you did certain things and I
40:43didn't ultimately didn't appreciate
40:45those things and then went and sought
40:46them somewhere
40:48else it did happen I'm sorry that it
40:52happened I didn't want it to
40:55happen and I think that sometimes it
40:59just felt like our clocks were off and
41:01so
41:03when I wanted to have sex and hold on
41:07hold on let me help you
41:10okay he's not better at is than you just
41:13so
41:15you you see what she needs to hear from
41:18you is to be left there feeling nothing
41:23and just feeling like she's some vessel
41:25in which you get to to yourself is a
41:27terrible feeling and you need to talk to
41:31that no I shouldn't have done that I'm
41:35sorry that I made you feel the way that
41:37you did the way that you do
41:40now and especially to think that I'm the
41:43reason for it
41:45and yeah it's it's the worst feeling you
41:49can
41:52imagine do you actually understand that
41:55or you just was saying
41:57it I mean
41:59it do you understand what
42:02happened I think so because I don't
42:06think you
42:08do ask her what's most important
42:11for you to
42:15understand can you tell me what it is
42:19that that's that you feel is the most
42:21important thing for me to understand
42:23that maybe you think I don't
42:26I feel
42:28used I feel like our whole marriage is
42:32just me run around your
42:35needs and you never try like I know in
42:39that you think by providing that what
42:43that you did your part but I'm talking
42:46more
42:47about emotional things I've been trying
42:51to show you that I don't know if I've
42:53been doing a good job of it but you've
42:55been my much better in terms of how
42:58you're at home you're involved with the
43:00kids it more feels like a family more
43:03now but the love thing between us that I
43:09don't know how to bring
43:11back so one of the ways it comes back is
43:15when you do have the feeling that he
43:17gets
43:18it what does it mean to say I feel
43:23used that doesn't mean it's what he
43:27did I
43:30understand and a part of why it went so
43:32long if I may is because you did absorb
43:36some very old patriarchal Notions of I
43:41have to give it to him
43:43mhm because that's what men need that's
43:45part of like how we're raised in Eastern
43:48Europe that is cultur cater to man you
43:51know cater to them you just give it to
43:53them and he doesn't want you to just
43:55give it to him
43:56the conversation will be primarily on
43:59each of you having the experience that
44:01the other person gets it and that you
44:04can together say what happened to us
44:07what did we do versus you did this and
44:10you did
44:11that don't let this sit and don't think
44:14time is going to do all of it it needs
44:17attention your kids are watching you
44:21they're learning from
44:25you
44:28when I talk about how
44:30dissatisfying their respective
44:32experiences have been both in terms of
44:36the emotional intimacy and in terms of
44:39the sexual
44:40connection this is the one place where
44:42they actually
44:44meet and then from here it's about
44:47understanding the
44:48particular details of their respective
44:52experience in my work with this couple
44:54I'm not looking for a happy
44:57and while they become at the same time
44:58very sad they also are perhaps speaking
45:02more to each other than they have in a
45:04long time and they're speaking to truth
45:06more than they have in a long time and
45:09perhaps this is the most we will be able
45:11to do today in this one session that I
45:14will have had with this
45:16[Music]
45:24couple a St is the author of mating in
45:27captivity unlocking erotic intelligence
45:30available on Audible and her upcoming
45:33book is the State of Affairs rethinking
45:37infidelity if you and your partner would
45:39be interested in recording a session
45:41with estere you can find out more at
45:44sell.com audible or at
45:47audible.com
45:49parel where should we begin is an
45:52audible original production produced by
45:54Olivia KN and Eva Walch over produced
45:57and sound designed by Paul Schneider
46:00recorded by Naro aab our executive
46:03producers are Ester Perell and me Jesse
46:05Baker Eric nuum is our big boss and we
46:08couldn't do this without Lindsay
46:10ratowski and Jun
46:13Cohen this is
46:17[Music]
46:24Audible

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Esther Perel in ‘Where Should We Begin?’: Episode 1 by Audible, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 6,764 words across 1,004 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.