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ESG Challenge: Angeli Patel, Berkeley Center for Law and Business interview — Transcript

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0:04hi I'm here today with anelie Patel so
0:07happy to have you here anelie um by way
0:10of introduction anelie is the executive
0:12director of the Berkeley Center for Law
0:14and business previously she was an
0:16attorney in the sustainability and ESG
0:18advisory practice at Paul Weiss ricken
0:20Wharton and Garrison in San Francisco
0:22where she advised clients on the
0:24governance of climate and social risks
0:26and is a was a lecturer at Berkeley law
0:29still at Berkeley law joining us from
0:31there today anelie has also previously
0:33held roles at Jones Day in the corporate
0:35group and at the UN Global compact
0:37Network Australia as an adviser on
0:39anti-corruption and business and human
0:41rights prior to her legal career anel
0:43served at the White House Office of man
0:45management and budget under the Obama
0:47Administration and served as a policy
0:49adviser at the US Department of Health
0:51and Human Services on consumer privacy
0:53as well as the Ministry of Finance in
0:54Chile on government modernization in
0:57addition to her career in law government
0:58on leads ands advises small businesses
1:01and startups she launched her own puzzle
1:03line for women of color in 20 excuse me
1:05her own puzzle line for women of color
1:07in 2021 as an adviser to the Dei startup
1:10Mandela in her free time Andi enjoys
1:12exercise fiction reading travel and
1:14movies thank you so much for joining us
1:15today absolutely I'm so happy to be
1:18here so building on that introduction
1:22could you just introduce yourself just a
1:23little bit more about your background
1:25and your work at Berkeley Center for Law
1:27and business yes absolutely so I am the
1:30executive director of the Berkeley
1:31Center for Law and business and what
1:34that all kind of just means is it's a
1:36the center is a think tank and what we
1:38do is we uh explore all of the different
1:41topics uh and try to further
1:44conversation uh for anything that's
1:46happening at the intersection of Law and
1:48business and in the past that might have
1:50been startups and venture capital or um
1:54crypto or Ai and now it's of course all
1:57of those things plus um really getting
2:00to the meat of the question that we're
2:02trying to answer now is what is the
2:03purpose of a corporation and this is
2:06brought on by a lot of the movement
2:08we've seen in the business world since
2:112020 and around ESG and sustainability
2:14priorities and so the center is really
2:17focused on um furthering conversation
2:20dialogue as well as research in this
2:23area and my job is to oversee the
2:25direction of these things and and what
2:27are the next steps
2:30that's great thank you so much for that
2:32context sounds like such interesting and
2:34important work so Berkeley is leading on
2:36the new thinking on the purpose of
2:38corporate entities as you notice um but
2:40doing this in the context of sustainable
2:42capitalism so could you share how your
2:44Center is defining sustainable
2:47capitalism yes absolutely this is a
2:49personal favorite topic of mine um I
2:52recently designed the course um for
2:54Berkeley law for executives called ESG
2:57University sustainable capitalism in
2:59practice and the the theory of change
3:02for that and what we're trying to do
3:03with the center is that at the end of
3:05the day in order to solve some of the
3:07world's largest problems like climate
3:09change social inequality um who knows
3:12worker displacement that will possibly
3:14happen due to AI all of those things at
3:17the center of those problems is a role
3:19that companies can play and the role
3:22that I believe is uh a sustainable in in
3:26the more definitional sense of the word
3:28is that
3:30are able to innovate create value for
3:34society and profits for themselves in a
3:37longer term in a way that accounts for
3:40the planet and its impact on people and
3:43this is a pretty packed definition but
3:46it guides a lot of the work that we do
3:49and what that means really is companies
3:54in a capitalist Society at the end of
3:56the day their job is to make money
3:58that's why anyone does business it's why
3:59you would want to be an entrepreneur to
4:01some degree and to do that and and to
4:05make sure that there's an environment
4:06within which you can be a profitable
4:08business it's become Paramount that
4:11companies do so um as they're building
4:13out their business strategies and
4:14they're building out their products or
4:16their services that they're thinking
4:17about the environment that they're
4:18thinking about people because it is
4:20crucial now more than ever for companies
4:22to really account for both the risks
4:25that these things pose but also in
4:28Trying to minimize those risks
4:30inevitably companies will find
4:31Opportunities to evolve and innovate um
4:34in a way that actually creates shared
4:37value that's fantastic and you're
4:39speaking to students of the in
4:42sustainability and NBAs so this is
4:44really inspiring thought to take on
4:46board so looking at it from a legal
4:49perspective and climate risks to
4:51business how do you assess climate risks
4:53to business from a legal perspective and
4:56of this what are the most important
4:58dimensions for companies to
5:02consider yeah no this is a great
5:04question and climate risk is generally
5:08uh spread across right climate risk is
5:12both systemic in nature and in in some
5:14cases very direct for companies so when
5:16we talk about climate risk from a legal
5:18perspective and why companies should
5:20care in terms of um their legal
5:24obligations it's because depending on
5:26the industry you're in and depending on
5:28where your supply chains Li
5:31understanding and having a an eye
5:33towards how climate change is impacting
5:36your operations your people your product
5:39or your ability to serve your customers
5:41is now enforcable uh if it is deemed um
5:45in terms of uh fiduciary duty for
5:48example for board of directors that they
5:50should have seen climate risks coming
5:53now these are things that can be
5:55enforced um climate risks also pose uh a
5:58financial cost and over time when there
6:02are climate shocks for example during
6:06covid or or um when there's a tsunami
6:09Out in southeast Asia and you have an
6:11extensive supply chain in those regions
6:14if you do not have a diverse supply
6:16chain if you're not planning for those
6:18things you could end up resulting in
6:22product delays which can then turn into
6:24class action lawsuits which can then
6:25turn into a shareholder litigation and
6:28so now the the risk which used to be
6:31reputational in nature now carries a a
6:34financial and
6:37legal cost to it um especially if the
6:41the the triggering point through a
6:42climate event can be um blown into a
6:45larger impact this is something we saw a
6:47ton with um during the Texas uh winter
6:51storm events about three or four years
6:54ago I think is 2021 and how many many
6:57public utilities and private utilities
7:00were implicated in all sorts of
7:02litigation due to not due to a systemic
7:05problem something that wasn't within
7:07their own control and yet they had some
7:09duties and responsibilities so in short
7:11I think the legal risk that climate
7:14change poses is so variable and it's so
7:17systemic in nature and yet it implicates
7:19the individual company it is more
7:22Paramount than ever that there is um
7:24someone or many someone's at a company
7:27thinking about how climate poses a risk
7:30on them and how they pose
7:32a an impact on on the environment or um
7:36what part they play climate
7:39change thanks for that this is so
7:41interesting because we're talking about
7:43companies considering their impacts in
7:45the environment the impacts of the
7:47environment on them and what duty of
7:49care they owe to their stakeholders or
7:51their shareholders or whoever it may be
7:54and that ties into fiduciary duty which
7:56is about our next questions because we
7:58continue to hear the argument that
8:00fiduciary duty means maximizing
8:02shareholder returns and therefore
8:04precludes long-term investments in
8:05sustainability or making dramatic shifts
8:08in business strategy that may help
8:11mitigate or adapt in the era of climate
8:13change so can you share how you think
8:15about fiduciary duty in the context of
8:17moving towards net zero especially for
8:19banks and financial
8:21institutions absolutely you know I think
8:24fiduciary duties are uh how they enable
8:29long-term thinking and long-term
8:31Investments and how they enable or
8:33disable a shift in business strategy it
8:36really just depends on who this duty is
8:39owed to and so let me start by first
8:43talking about institutional investors
8:45because so much of the conversation and
8:46sustainability stems from these
8:49institutional investors whose charge is
8:52actually to ensure long-term returns
8:54rather than short-term returns which of
8:56course is part of their portfolio but
8:58they their clients are Pension funds
9:01their government bonds they're
9:03essentially individuals who are counting
9:05on institutional investors to be able to
9:08give an Roi of 10% year onye for the
9:11next 30 40 years until they're ready to
9:14retire and this is the driving force
9:16behind why so much of the conversation
9:19has inched into uh long-term returns
9:23long-term returns through responsible
9:25management of environmental and social
9:27risks and essentially the fiduciary duty
9:31concept when owed to an Institutional
9:34Investor naturally predicates that as a
9:37company you should have a long-term
9:39strategy as a company you do owe your
9:42investor say an Institutional Investor
9:45um a duty to ensure that your business
9:49can in fact uh endure over a longer
9:52period of time and so uh the question
9:56around whether uh fiduciary d enable or
10:00disable long-term or sustainable
10:02thinking it just depends on who your
10:05duty is owed to in in more of like a
10:08legal Theory sense Delaware courts by
10:12default uh give shareholders Primacy
10:16meaning shareholders are the ultimate
10:18stakeholder to which companies owe a
10:20duty and that
10:24is and that is essentially uh uh the
10:28driving framework for that however uh
10:33what this means is if your shareholder
10:35is one whose priorities are uh ensuring
10:39that their client's money is not funding
10:43um a company that will go out of
10:45business in five to 10 years and rather
10:47they want their money to go into
10:48companies that are at the Forefront of
10:51the next Innovation then there's a duty
10:54owed by institutional investors to
10:56ensure that they're investing in that
10:58manner and in turn will put pressure on
11:00their portfolio companies to move them
11:02along in that direction and so I think
11:05the conversation around fiduciary duties
11:06is a little bit more nuanced than um you
11:10know than what it might seem and the way
11:14I think about fiduciary duties um in
11:16context of moving maybe closer to Net
11:18Zero or or for banks and financial
11:20institutions you know we've seen a lot
11:23of litigation we've seen a lot of um
11:27anti-g conversation
11:30uh going after financial institutions
11:32Gans these alliances for making that
11:36zero commitments and and we've seen a
11:38lot of those Banks and institutions
11:40withdraw their commitments and it's it
11:44is a lot less about the legality as much
11:47it is about the scrutiny and so um a lot
11:52of the conversation is um massed in
11:56terms of fiduciary duties but in fact it
11:59is um whether a bank or a financial
12:01institution has the ability to withstand
12:04a billion dollar fund being withdrawn
12:06from their business versus um any kind
12:10of legal missteps that they may be
12:12taking and um and so I'd say at the
12:16number of banks you do still see as part
12:18of those alliances is a testament to the
12:20fact that fiduciary duties can actually
12:25enable their participation in Net Zero
12:28targets it's a matter of risk appetite
12:30at the end of the day in terms of
12:32reputational and political scrutiny that
12:35um companies are really grappling with
12:37rather than kind of the legal concept of
12:39fiduciary
12:40duty that's so fascinating and of course
12:44the at the core of all this is ESG data
12:48and metrics and reality so the anti-g
12:51backlash may as you've said inhibit or
12:54Scare financial institutions from making
12:57the commitments so if and I heard what
13:00you said about reputational risk and the
13:03will willingness to withstand the kind
13:04of political scrutiny but to the extent
13:07that financial institutions are actually
13:09the targets of lawsuits from where you
13:11said what do you think would be good
13:13legal strategies to defend against such
13:16attack yeah and you know it it truly
13:19does come down to um ensuring that you
13:22have the right controls in place and
13:24ensuring that your governance um
13:26reflects the communication and the
13:29strategy that you're communicating to
13:31your stakeholders and your investors and
13:33those who you actually owe a fiduciary
13:35duty to so if in fact you are saying to
13:38your um clients that you completely have
13:41Choice over your investment but in fact
13:43there isn't a feature or there isn't a
13:45an option for them to choose where their
13:47money is Flowing then of course that
13:50anti-u scrutiny can easily then turn
13:53into a potential legal risk um where in
13:57fact you find a lot of the more
13:59sophisticated institutional investors
14:00and investor investment funds generally
14:03will often prioritize and centralize uh
14:07shareholder choice and in um investor
14:10choice and this is in in part a new it's
14:13not that new but it's a response
14:15essentially to these anti-g or don't
14:18invest my money using your own
14:21ideological um priorities as a way to
14:25control and as a way to hedge for um
14:29some of those risks at the end of the
14:31day um what what a lot of um smart what
14:35I would say smart investors have really
14:37come down to and financial providers
14:38have really come down to is let's just
14:40make sure that people have choice and I
14:43think that's a very smart framework to
14:45follow um and in in this in the
14:48instances where you do have say um a
14:51fund or investors who are interested in
14:56getting that 10 year 10% are year on-ear
15:00um Roi on their investment then it
15:03becomes a fiduciary obligation of those
15:04companies and those Banks and those
15:06financial institutions to to at least
15:08communicate and share that hey we
15:11believe you're going to have to invest
15:12in these happens to be ESG ranked
15:16companies and therefore that's why we're
15:18investing in because of your stated
15:20priorities of your goals for about the
15:2330 to 40 year Horizon and so uh the
15:27transparency must be there the document
15:29much show that that is how it's being um
15:31handled the prospectus the communication
15:36to who you're soliciting funds from has
15:38to be very clear on the on the measures
15:40and the metrics you'll be using and
15:42where where possible creating feutures
15:45to withdraw and um uh enter into these
15:49kinds of Investments uh truly gives the
15:53onus uh and the responsibility back to
15:57the investor to the shareholder rather
15:59than being the central decision maker in
16:01many
16:04cases thank you for that incredibly
16:07helpful just want to make sure that I
16:08understand the response because I'm
16:10thinking there's a a question here about
16:12how to avoid climate action lawsuits in
16:14the first place and it sounds like
16:17transparency and maybe shareholder
16:20choice is really at the center of this
16:22being very clear
16:23about people whose money you're
16:26investing have they're they're able to
16:27decide how you're investing and they
16:29have choices about how to do this have I
16:31got that correct and is there is there
16:33anything else that financial
16:34institutions may do to head off climate
16:36litigation which may be inevitable for
16:39political reasons or other reasons yeah
16:41no I think one investor choice is a
16:43great preventative measure um it kind of
16:46gives them the ability to decide whether
16:48they want their funds invested in a oil
16:50and gas or not um but other metrics and
16:53other measures is always um and things
16:56you start to see with a lot of um more
16:59of the institutional investors is uh
17:02bringing in the expertise uh across the
17:04board bringing in um you know folks who
17:08can advise on uh a transition risk or a
17:12uh uh more of a like a def financing or
17:17defunding risks right and so one I think
17:21ensuring that you are actually informed
17:23as an advisor and as an investor of what
17:27you're actually doing is a a point of
17:30evidence at the very least that this is
17:32an informed decision that this is a
17:34careful and prudent
17:37decision um other ways of mitigating
17:41climate litigation risk right we have
17:44had we have Focus so much on the threat
17:46of
17:47anti-g um scrutiny but there's also a
17:51very active and Global uh group of pro
17:56ESG or even further than ESG folks who
17:59also want their money and their
18:01financial institutions to Value uh
18:04decarbonization at a faster rate and so
18:07that risk is very much there as well and
18:10and it will likely only grow um perhaps
18:14not in the US but globally if you're a
18:15bank that has multiple uh offerings
18:18across the world this is something
18:20you're already probably tracking and to
18:23minimize those risk again it comes down
18:25to transparency and it comes down to
18:28what I would think um engagement with
18:30your stakeholders a lot of times what
18:33the stakeholders want to know is
18:35especially those who go and issue those
18:37proxy statements who go into those proxy
18:39wars with you they really want to know
18:41is are you actually taking this
18:43seriously and some of the best examples
18:45of financial institutions that have
18:47handled on both sides kind of the the
18:50scrutiny is actually by engaging in
18:53dialogue and
18:54conversation it's obviously a business
18:56decision at the end of the day more than
18:58a Le one uh and often CEOs will opt to
19:03say okay there's clearly legal risk here
19:05but this is something we value this is
19:07something that we want to capitalize on
19:10there's a$3
19:11trillion uh climate transition waiting
19:14for us to finance that's where we're
19:17going to go and and For Better or Worse
19:19a lot of businesses make the tough call
19:22but that is the time we're in some of
19:24these decisions are just not easy ones
19:26and at the end of the day engaging with
19:27your stakeholders getting informed
19:29ensuring that your governance is fair
19:30and
19:31transparent and then ultimately making
19:33the decision that you believe is best
19:36will at least in Delaware protect you
19:38against the uh using the business
19:40judgment rule
19:42so great that's great thank you for that
19:45and such a good reminder that financial
19:47institutions can face anti-g scrutiny
19:49and also Pro or even more than Pro uh
19:52ESG scrutiny when stakeholders are
19:54concerned that financial institutions
19:56are taking these risks seriously so
19:58thank you for that so if we are thinking
20:01about the $3 trillion opportunity and
20:04what I think most folks agree is a is a
20:06net zero priority um what do you see as
20:10the role of companies and trying to
20:12shift the Regulatory and political
20:14landscape toward one that's more
20:16supportive of Net Zero strategies so
20:19what and what best practices you've seen
20:21them on stakeholder and political
20:23engagement can you recommend yeah you
20:26know and this is a really big question
20:28and there's no kind of right answer and
20:31I I make these things because I'm a
20:33lawyer and I have a caveat tendency and
20:35I say this because uh companies can play
20:38so many roles um in net zero and it
20:40doesn't have to be an activist role you
20:43have an example in Patagonia that has
20:46you know taken its platform and taken
20:48that activist role but one of the very
20:51underrated things about the Patagonia of
20:53the world is that they value showing to
20:55their peers that you can absolutely be
20:59profitable and do so being a responsible
21:02Steward of your natural resources and so
21:06one of the most simple and within the
21:09business strategy ways companies can do
21:11this is show us show your competitors
21:14show your industry that you're going to
21:17figure out a way to make money in a way
21:19that's going to help you be resilient in
21:22climate events be a resilient Workforce
21:25and innovate to solve some of these
21:27problems that's obviously the most um uh
21:31simple yet hard way to do it the other
21:33way that companies can engage um in
21:35ensuring that there's more movement
21:37towards net zero because it is such an
21:39important and uh
21:42existential uh topic that we all need to
21:44get on board yesterday with is really
21:49um engaging with their stakeholders
21:53listen to customers listen to your
21:55investors listen to your employees stake
21:58holders are how you're going to innovate
22:01they're going to let you know where the
22:03next opportunities lie it's not going to
22:05be the sea Suite that sits there behind
22:07a computer with Trends and and and uh
22:11data points from McKenzie or deoy or any
22:13of these consulting firms that's going
22:14to make a determination it's going to be
22:16coming from your stakeholders of where
22:20you need to go next listen and be ready
22:23to innovate around that be ready to tap
22:25into those opportunities as you're
22:27looking for those risks
22:29and then my final kind of recommendation
22:32is this is not a unique time I I want to
22:36remind people and companies and
22:38corporate leaders this is not unique we
22:40are uh we have solved many important
22:43problems um in the world there was a
22:46time where air pollution felt like it
22:48could never be solved there was a time
22:49where the ozone layer was so thin that
22:52people were suffering all kinds of
22:54things we have been able to solve a lot
22:56of great problems over the span of
22:59corporate history alone much less human
23:01history it is important to know that any
23:04act or any positionality that you take
23:07as a company isn't going to be the end
23:10of the world and it is not the last
23:12thing or the first thing uh that anyone
23:16has done and I like to
23:18deemphasize the um the hype around
23:22corporate engagement in this in the
23:24social sphere in the environmental
23:25sphere because for a very long time uh
23:29companies did think about these issues
23:32and they built them into their
23:33strategies this is why you started to
23:35see companies that were 200 years old
23:37may stay in the S&P 500 for a longer
23:40period of time and so it is very
23:42important that we remember that
23:45longevity of your company and the
23:47longevity of our markets depends on a
23:50company's ability to listen engage and
23:53navigate social and political CH changes
23:56it is part of the business strategy not
24:00separate
24:02from that's amazing advice and I love
24:05this this stakeholder engagement is so
24:07important political engagement and this
24:08is where the Innovation will come from
24:10from the listening and from pivoting and
24:12reminding companies that they can do it
24:15um they have done it and they can do it
24:17so thank you for that um we got one more
24:20question here about the role of the
24:22legal department particularly maybe in
24:24financial institutions if you're
24:25advising the legal department of a major
24:27Bank or asset
24:29manager was say the high the highest
24:32what would you tell them about managing
24:34climate risks and Associated political
24:37risks yeah this is a good question and
24:40you know one of the things we did a lot
24:42in when I was practicing in my um es
24:45Advisory Group back in uh Paul Weiss and
24:48and before that Jones day
24:51is fiduciary duty is the ultimate uh
24:55guiding source for how asset managers
24:59have to think about what they owe and
25:01what they must do it may not be loved
25:05and it may not be reputationally even
25:07sexy but
25:08is uh fiduciary duties are owed that is
25:12a legal requirement and just reminding
25:14oneself and grounding um when a company
25:17when the legal department is starting to
25:19think about what is a risk and what is
25:21not a risk grounding that risk mindset
25:24in these fiduciary duties what do you
25:26owe to the ultimate stakeholder which is
25:29your investor or your clients in this
25:31case or whomever you're owing your
25:33duties to First grounding grounding in
25:36that understanding I think legal
25:38departments suffer a little bit from
25:40reputational fears I think that's kind
25:43of the job of a legal department is to
25:45really ensure that there is somebody
25:47thinking about it um but it's also the
25:50job of a legal department to uh not just
25:54say no it is no but no but here's a
25:58number of different ways that could work
26:01within our risk appetite and no but is a
26:04very important mindset to have
26:07especially um when powerful asset
26:10managers who do have a stake in almost
26:12every company under the planet and Under
26:15the Sun um have to think about climate
26:18risk because climate risk is spread it
26:20is not centralized and if it's impacting
26:22one part of your portfolio it will
26:24absolutely impact another part of your
26:26portfolio and that is a huge risk that
26:30has to transcend the the fear of
26:32reputational Damages um in one way or
26:34another so staying grounded in your uh
26:37investment strategy being very clear um
26:40to the extent that you are as a legal
26:42team able to uh give metrics to um how
26:46you're thinking about the risk how you
26:48um do scenario planning as a legal
26:50department when um a number of the fears
26:53that the department might have do
26:55manifest that kind of preparation will
26:57help the legal department be a partner
27:00in pushing and helping the the the banks
27:03stay course what we've seen so much of
27:05is Banks not being able to stay course
27:07in a given Direction they've chosen and
27:09this is not me saying go in the
27:11direction of complete decarbonization
27:13and end all fossil fuel funding perhaps
27:16that is not the most prudent strategy
27:18for your
27:20specific company perhaps it's a 10-year
27:23Journey perhaps it's a 5-year Journey
27:24whatever that journey is the legal
27:26Department's job should be to help that
27:28company stay course and where those
27:31risks are to manifest turn those into
27:33Solutions and be able to communicate
27:35them and using the aid of inhouse
27:38created metrics to do
27:41so such an good advice to stay the
27:44course and and again to use your
27:46in-house CR metrics that's that's great
27:49and super clear thank you um so we're
27:51coming up on time I just want to ask if
27:53there's any last points you'd like to
27:55add or or message you'd like to leave us
27:57with
27:58yeah no my my I have a lot of Hope as
28:02you can tell uh around some of the the
28:05work that at least we're doing and and
28:07where I see the world kind of heading I
28:09think there's a lot of fear uh that we
28:11see through um news articles or kind of
28:14the uh from not knowing in some ways
28:17what's next but there's something really
28:19exciting about not knowing and I think
28:22embracing that uncertainty and um
28:25pushing in a Direction as a company in
28:28terms of innovation engaging your
28:30stakeholders and figuring out how you're
28:32going to survive as a company in the
28:34long term um or how you going to
28:36encourage your portfolio companies to do
28:38so are such important parts to play in
28:42this larger journey and that's what we
28:45push for the Berkeley has a set of
28:47principles called the three e or the
28:48Berkeley principles for sustainable
28:50capitalism and sustainable business and
28:52there are engagement endurance and
28:54evolution if companies can prioritize
28:57these three things
28:58they're likely doing I'm not going to
29:00say there will be but they're likely
29:02doing their part in helping solve some
29:05of these these massive uh problems that
29:08we're facing as a as a society so I'll
29:11I'll part ways with the three
29:13e that's fantastic we'll take the the
29:17three e and your hope U we'll take that
29:19package combined so thank you so much an
29:22this has been a great discussion really
29:24really appreciate your time absolutely
29:26thank you so much
29:28take care bye bye bye

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