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Esclavage, racisme, whitewashing : Ces jeux vidéo problématiques - Disculture EP.2 — Transcript

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0:00Welcome to Culture, our monthly talk
0:02show where we decipher video games and
0:04pop culture to understand what they say
0:06about our society. I'm Michaël. I
0:18analyze video games and the way they
0:21inspire and inspire our society, with a
0:23particular focus on their development
0:25on the African continent. And just like
0:28the very first show, I have the
0:30pleasure of co-hosting this show with
0:32Jane. Hi Jane.
0:33Hi. Hi everyone, and welcome to episode
0:35number 2. It's going to be great. Today
0:37, we're going to talk about colonialism
0:39and decolonialism. The goal is to
0:41really try to understand why and how we
0:43find these mechanisms, even in video
0:45games. I know that this may always
0:48surprise some people, but it's good to
0:49ask ourselves these questions, like why
0:51is it always white Westerners who
0:53discover new worlds through games? I'm
0:56thinking of Raoft, Nathan Drake from
0:58Uncharted, and so on. How is all that
1:00going to be a problem too? Today's
1:03topic, and we're going to clear all
1:05that up together today.
1:08Yes, this subject must be approached as
1:10delicately as the wild coast of an
1:13unknown island, and we cannot do it
1:15without guests Hakim and Medy. Okay,
1:18I'll let you introduce yourself, Hakim.
1:20Well,
1:20my name is Hakim Omiri, so I do
1:23stand-up comedy. I have a show called
1:25Contex that I perform every week at the
1:28Théâtre des Maturins in Paris and on
1:30tour throughout France. So, I'm a
1:33comedian and an author because I write
1:35my own texts, and I co-wrote the show.
1:38As for the show, I also have a show on
1:40Radio Nova every week called Larry Post
1:42where we talk about current events and
1:43make jokes about them to help us digest
1:45the world we live in a little better.
1:49Yes. And we also have Medy Medy
1:51Darfouffi, you are a researcher, author
1:53of the book Racisme et jeux vidéo that
1:56I have right here and in fact we are
1:58going to base ourselves on that to
2:00address all these themes today. You are
2:03also a lecturer at the University of
2:05Paris 8 and you are also the masked man
2:08today.
2:09Yes. Well, we are living in dangerous
2:11times, aren't we? So it is better to
2:13preserve your anonymity for greater
2:15security. And hey, Covid is not over.
2:19It is
2:21good to protect yourself.
2:22Very good. And then we will end the
2:24show with our two columns to share our
2:27thoughts on video game recommendations,
2:29cinema, and culture. And then right
2:32away with our two guests, we are going
2:34to do a quiz to get to know them better
2:36and, uh, so I will explain the
2:38principle to you. So the quiz on
2:40sculpture based on video games that we
2:41will have to translate into French, we
2:43will ask you to simply find the titles.
2:45So we're going to start off easy, very
2:47slowly with Jane. It's not The Hunger
2:48Games, you know? You've just tried to
2:50guess, and then we'll see. We're going
2:51to try to test your video game
2:53knowledge a little bit. If I say, "Your
2:55papers, please," does that remind you
2:57of a game?
2:58Papers, Please.
2:59Papers, Please. Let's go. Did you know
3:01that?
3:01No.
3:02The game is incredible.
3:03Oh yeah?
3:03Oh yeah. If you're not very political,
3:05I recommend you check it out.
3:07Okay. But how do you play it? What kind
3:09of game is it?
3:10What kind of game is it? Let's say it's
3:12a game that's a bit of a management
3:13game.
3:13Yeah, actually, you manage. You're
3:15given permission, so people come to you
3:17and you have to decide whether to let
3:18them in or not. So it doesn't get more
3:20political than that.
3:21Very, very interesting on the subject
3:22of immigration and whether to let
3:23people through or not.
3:24Okay.
3:25Uh, then the Elder Ring. Does that ring
3:28a bell? Elden Ring.
3:31Elden Ring.
3:33But Trichey, a great connoisseur.
3:36I took off my glasses, I can't look.
3:38Maisy, a great researcher. So he knows
3:40the Elder Ring. Yeah, it's Elden Ring.
3:42I wonder if people have it, the people
3:44watching us. Okay, 3rd, 3rd, obviously,
3:473rd game, Call of Duty. I think you'll
3:50know that. Yes. And the second part,
3:53Call of Duty. The Black Ops Dark
3:56Operators.
3:57Yeah, that's it.
3:59Exactly. It's a game to see if you're
4:01English. Actually, it's not a game.
4:03There will
4:04be little...There will be little
4:05subtleties, you'll see.
4:06Seriously. Okay. 4th, 4th game, Beast
4:09Crossing.
4:13Ah, that's tough, huh? That's
4:15all, I could have done a more literal
4:16translation but that's not the goal.
4:18Yeah, otherwise it would have been too
4:19easy.
4:20Animal Crossing if you prefer.
4:23Ah, Animal Crossing.
4:24There you go, it's not bad. It's not
4:25bad.
4:26Okay. After that, I'll leave you and
4:27I'll let Michael continue. Dark Souls.
4:31Dark Souls. Yeah, I admit it. You speak
4:35English well, I think. You seem to have
4:37a good level of English. Okay. Last one
4:38for me,
4:39The Void Knight. By the way, a little
4:44hint, there's a game that came out
4:46recently.
4:47Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Last fall.
4:49The Void Knight. Do you have it?
4:51Very famous.
4:52Something.
4:53Yeah. Holo
4:56is Hollow. Small indie game, very
4:58difficult, too difficult for me, but
5:00that I recommend to everyone because
5:02it's an incredible license. What's
5:03the concept? It's
5:05a platform and adventure game where you
5:08play a little creature who has to fight
5:10. Think about it, you see a bit like
5:13Ori. And well, it's a bit in that style
5:15,
5:16except that it's very difficult.
5:17Yeah, it's really for hardcore players.
5:19Often, 2D games like this,
5:22yeah, uh, which have a slightly old
5:24design but remodeled with it, make them
5:26very difficult. They're not games,
5:30yeah, but it's still a masterclass in
5:31terms of graphics. It takes place in a
5:34world of insects. I really invite you
5:36to try it. It's very, very
5:37OK. Well, I'll continue
5:39with my own war. My own war, does that
5:42ring a bell? Hm.
5:44Now, you can do a literal translation,
5:45I can...
5:46Yeah, you can almost do a literal
5:47translation. There's a little pun in it
5:48. It's a survival strategy game that
5:53came out a few years ago.
5:57I have it.
5:57You don't have it?
5:58Say War of Mine.
6:00Oh no, I don't know it.
6:01Disir of Mine is a game that came out,
6:03I think, in the 2010s.
6:05And so the goal is precisely that we
6:07are survivalists in a time of war. I
6:10think it's, uh, it's linked to the
6:11Sarayevo War. It's a bit of a
6:13reinterpretation of that. It's a game.
6:16Yeah. Yeah. And it's a game that also
6:19has the advantage of being able to
6:20donate funds to charities from time to
6:23time. So it works well like that. So
6:26from time to time, they say, for 2
6:27weeks, all the revenue is donated to
6:29such and such a charity. So I invite
6:31you to discover it.
6:33OK.
6:35So another title that's a bit subtle,
6:37the two go hand in hand. You're not far
6:43off. We're not far off.
6:46It says everything.
6:47Exactly. It says everything. Great game
6:49too. Very good.
6:50Yeah. Did you play it yourself?
6:53I haven't finished it, but I did it, I
6:54did it, well, I played a part of it and
6:56I had a really good time with it, and I
6:58just don't have time to do it anymore.
7:02I had to start reposting again because
7:03I discovered it not long ago. It's full
7:07of little challenges, lots of little
7:08levels, little snacks, and you have to
7:09be cooperative. It's a
7:11two-player game for people who like to
7:12play with other people.
7:13The title is really the most perfect
7:15for this type of game. I have three
7:18more suggestions for you. So this one
7:19is much harder. It's called To Split
7:22the Tower. It's
7:25complicated.
7:26Yeah, that one's hard. It's a game
7:28that's
7:29also indie games. Yeah, that's it.
7:30We're indie games, like ROG Light.
7:33Uh, not far, not far,
7:36not far. It's not even your
7:37Focus on To Split. What do you say to
7:39split?
7:41Uh, good luck. You're watching Medy.
7:45Medy is supposed to find it, I think.
7:47Come on, come on, I'll tell you. It's
7:49Slayp, I don't know if you're familiar
7:52with it, an independent game but which
7:54also has a huge community, where you
7:56have to climb a whole tower and defeat
7:58enemies. It's a turn-based game. Well,
8:01in any case, it's. I invite you to try
8:03it too, it's really cool. It's not very
8:05pretty but it's great.
8:06OK.
8:06I haven't played it yet, but
8:07yeah. I'm going to spend way too much
8:09time on it.
8:11So, I love this one. Uh, picnic, same
8:13thing, indie game too. I told you, it's
8:16getting faster and faster.
8:17But picnic, how do you translate that
8:18to picnic?
8:19So, do it, do it in the Japanese
8:21version.
8:22Yeah. Japanese.
8:23How do you say picnic in Japanese?
8:25Pik.
8:26There you go, exactly. Picounico, which
8:28is a little game, a very funny, very
8:30colorful little game where you have
8:32characters with long legs who kick each
8:34other with a little interesting
8:36political moment, a subtitle, a really
8:38interesting political sub-discourse.
8:41And the last one too. So, the
8:44association of red underpants.
8:46I didn't know about it. That's
8:47true.
8:49Uh, same thing, you can almost
8:50translate it literally. So, where is it
8:53maybe the red underpants club?
8:55Yeah, that's it. Yeah, the red
8:56underpants club. I think that will help
8:58you more,
8:59right?
9:01So, The Red Strings Club, which is a
9:04discussion game that takes place in a
9:06cafe. So, I don't have any more details
9:09but I do know that it's also quite
9:11popular among independent games. There
9:13you go.
9:13And what's the goal of the game?
9:14I don't remember.
9:16I didn't want anyone to ask me that
9:18question. You'll
9:20all go and watch, you figure it out for
9:22yourself.
9:23Just because there was a stream.
9:27No, but it's funny. But then, it allows
9:28us to get to know you a little bit, to
9:30know where you are, where you are in
9:32terms of video games. You're a big
9:34gamer too, Hakim.
9:35Quite a bit. Yeah. In fact, I played
9:37way too much
9:39and for a while, when I was a teenager,
9:41I even wanted to become a video game
9:43tester and so on.
9:44I spent my time in front of Game One.
9:46Yeah.
9:48watching Marcus and Game One and in
9:50fact I put that aside because when I
9:53put on a game, as I was explaining to
9:56you earlier, I can't stop. I can play
10:01for hours. I really get into a world
10:04and what's next to it doesn't exist
10:07and in fact it makes me miss out on too
10:08many things. So I tried to slow down
10:10for a while, for example, I hadn't
10:12bought a PlayStation. I had sold all my
10:15consoles because
10:17I was spending too much time on them.
10:18Oh yeah, that was radical. And since I
10:21needed to move forward on the new show,
10:22to write it and so on, well, when the
10:24consoles came out, the PS5, I didn't
10:26buy it for example
10:28and I just bought it this year.
10:30Yeah.
10:30And so now, I'm catching up on games
10:31that people told me, "Well, it's been a
10:32long time since I played." Yeah, well
10:34leave me alone.
10:35Now, you're back in the game.
10:37Yeah, I've been back in the game since
10:38this year, really.
10:39Okay. But if we were to ask you about,
10:41uh, video game heroes or video games in
10:44general that have left a mark on you,
10:46can you name any games like that that
10:48are very dear to you?
10:51Well, maybe in the very first video
10:53games that I knew, Dungeon Master,
10:56which for me is a game whose mechanics
10:58don't necessarily include all of them.
11:02That was in the late 80s
11:04on Atari. It was a really cool game. I
11:08didn't know Dungeon Masters. I admit it
11:10. I think maybe I wasn't born, I don't
11:13know, at that time. I only
11:15know the numbers, I haven't played.
11:16And what about you, Hakim, what are
11:18your favorite games? I feel like I'm
11:21being a bit obvious, but I love The
11:23Last of Us, both of them.
11:26And the last one is just incredible. I
11:29haven't watched the series because I'm
11:31afraid it would distort what I knew
11:33about the game too much, and I wondered
11:35if it really brought me something more?
11:38And then not everyone seemed to be
11:39unanimous about this series. So I put
11:42it aside for a bit. Maybe I'll end up
11:44watching it anyway.
11:45But in any case, The Last of Us, this
11:47kind of game, is really what I love.
11:48It's the
11:49same for me, I didn't do the I didn't
11:50do I didn't watch the series because
11:52again, I was a little afraid of what it
11:53would be like, but most people liked it
11:55. Yeah,
11:56yeah, yeah. Yeah, the game and the
11:58series.
11:59I realized in hindsight that people
12:01mostly criticized the actress
12:03more than the series
12:05and so I thought maybe it's worth it.
12:08Okay, you have to
12:11at least at the very least and then if
12:13you can, if you want to go watch the
12:14movie.
12:15Yeah. Well,
12:16the series.
12:16Alright. Maybe the last question. Did
12:18you have a hero from your childhood who
12:20spoke to you more than another?
12:23H
12:25I see you squinting.
12:26In my childhood, there was Ulis 31.
12:28Oh of course.
12:30We always talk about games, or even
12:32outside of games.
12:33Oh no. Well, for me it's definitely
12:35Sang Goku.
12:36Sang Goku the base.
12:37Oh yeah, no or
12:38not Vegeta.
12:39No no, I'm on the side of the good guys
12:40. Meok.
12:41Ah but Vegeta is good, huh? Excuse me.
12:43Yes, he becomes so after what. And
12:45again.
12:46He has an oversized ego.
12:47We can feel that he keeps his anger.
12:49Yeah yeah. No no, I was a fan of Sangu
12:52Sangohan. They were characters that I
12:55found incredible and who instilled less
12:57values than I still have today. Hm.
13:00Like what,
13:02uh, no, but the...I was a boxer for
13:04years and, the fact of training, uh, to
13:07learn something and master it, and
13:10spending time on it, and, and, and
13:12integrating that the fact that it's
13:15hard is part of the learning, and that,
13:18uh, makes you even more proud of
13:20yourself when you manage to master
13:22something, well it's...and then
13:25fighting to save your friends.
13:28In short, all that is super important,
13:31courage, discipline, it's very shonen,
13:34it's very Japanese. The basis of shonen
13:36or
13:37completely.
13:38And for you Mé,
13:40apart from Lis 31.
13:41Yeah, it's true that you already said
13:43it, sorry. Ulis 31 at the base. Yeah.
13:45Yes. Yes.
13:46Yes. In my youth. Yes. And but in fact,
13:48I preferred the character of Tis but
13:49well, less well-known of course.
13:51Yeah, I admit it. I don't see. However,
13:53I know the Ulysses 31 theme song well.
13:55I won't sing it for you. You'll have to
13:56come and see me.
13:57I know the words by heart. If you want,
13:59we'll do a little karaoke right after.
14:03Come on, let's jump into the subject at
14:04Piedin. So video games and colonization
14:07, decolonization. I'll start by
14:10mentioning some strategy video games
14:11that are the equivalent of board games
14:13like Risk, for those who don't know.
14:15For example, there are games like
14:17Civilization,
14:18Humanind, Edge of Empire, and the Total
14:21War series. In fact, we often have this
14:24exhilarating feeling when playing these
14:26games, of building, expanding,
14:28dominating, and advancing our people.
14:30We start with a small village, we
14:32explore, we colonize new territories,
14:34and all of this is often presented as a
14:36victory,
14:36like a conquest.
14:37Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And
14:41then, if we look at it more closely,
14:43especially as adults, these games don't
14:45just tell stories inspired by our past,
14:47they also tell a certain vision of
14:49history, that of progress, conquest,
14:51and technical and cultural superiority.
14:55And through this program, I wanted us
14:57to see with you, based on your
14:58experiences and your research, if there
15:00aren't other ways of approaching the
15:02history of humanity through video games
15:04that could be somewhat decolonized or
15:06approached from a different perspective
15:08. Yeah, I'd like to know because you've
15:12studied this issue extensively in your
15:14book Racism and Video Games. What are
15:18the general findings that you made in
15:20your book about what our video games
15:22actually tell us today, about colonial
15:25issues, racial issues, and so on? What
15:28would your general findings be? Well,
15:32the findings are first of all that
15:33there has been an evolution in recent
15:35years, but the observation is that we
15:37are primarily dealing with a cultural
15:40industry and therefore, like any
15:41cultural industry, we are going to try
15:43to reach as many people as possible,
15:47and as many as possible with purchasing
15:49power. And therefore, as we can see,
15:52Africa represents a tiny share of the
15:54global video game market. So in a way,
15:59yeah. A little more now, but it's still
16:03tiny.
16:05And so, well, we shouldn't be too
16:07surprised that the video game industry
16:09is primarily aimed at a kind of
16:11audience that will constitute a
16:13standard and that will apply to
16:15everyone.
16:17So in addition to these economic
16:19realities, of course, the evolution
16:21comes from the demands and activity of
16:23the public, which will mean that we
16:25will ask to see something different. Hm
16:28.
16:29The industry has more or less
16:31considered this for, let’s say, 15 to
16:3320 years. And in recent years, there
16:36have been some interesting examples
16:38with the emergence of a somewhat
16:40independent sector.
16:42Yeah.
16:42Or semi-independent. And that is
16:45somewhat where we also hope to see some
16:48different proposals emerge. Well, there
16:50are also big titles that offer slightly
16:53different representations and, above
16:55all, how can I put it, it's also the
16:57way in which the public takes ownership
16:59of games that counts, and that's
17:01sometimes a little neglected. Yes, it's
17:04true that we don't do enough. I think
17:05we pay attention to the way in which
17:07players, and especially the regular
17:09players, or at least those we see a
17:11little less, approach video games. You,
17:13who we were talking to earlier, are a
17:15big gamer. You're playing Skyrim again,
17:17as you told me earlier backstage. Are
17:19these questions that you've ever asked
17:21yourself while playing video games?
17:23What does it mean? Does it have a more
17:27or less negative influence? The
17:29messages that are sent to me through
17:30video games, have you ever asked
17:31yourself this question or not?
17:32Yeah. Yeah. Often. I think the first
17:36time I asked myself it was when I
17:37joined Medal of Honor, I think the 2nd
17:40or 3rd. And I said to myself, "But in
17:43fact, in all the games, we kill the
17:44Germans." And in fact, it was finally
17:47that the Nazis are an
17:50easily identifiable bad guy, they're
17:51just bad guys, we never think of
17:52anything other than that, you know. And
17:55then, uh, and then, I realized, uh,
17:57when I got the Xbox, that the bad guys
18:00were always the Arabs who were shot at.
18:03And then after that, I started to make
18:05connections. In fact, as you grow up,
18:07at first, you're a bit young, you don't
18:08ask yourself any questions, then you
18:10become a teenager and you say, "But
18:11wait, the guys who are always being
18:12shot at, they look a lot like me."
18:14And then in the movies, you say, "Okay,
18:16so it's the Russians, the Arabs, the
18:17blacks, and then you say, OK." In fact,
18:19it's always the same. Then, there is
18:22and since there is an American hegemony
18:24, at least at that time, that was very
18:27much the case, you realize that the bad
18:30guys are the countries that the United
18:33States is going to attack or plunder,
18:36like Vietnam and so on. And, as time
18:39went on, I realized that the cowboys
18:40and the bad guys are the Indians, when
18:42in fact it should be the other way
18:44around, and so on. And in fact, that's
18:47how you get people to think that the
18:49bad guy is the good guy. There's also a
18:53kind of American imperialism through
18:54video games.
18:55Yeah. Yeah. As they say, soft power, we
18:57don't realize it, but it's really,
18:59really powerful. You play because when
19:03you play a character, you're obviously
19:05good. Well, you're on the right side;
19:07you won't play. Or it's established
19:09that you're a bad guy and so you do
19:11whatever you want, and that's the
19:12principle of the game. But most of the
19:15time, you're supposed to be a hero and
19:16sometimes the story you're defending
19:18stinks, right?
19:19Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's for sure. And
19:21then it's true that the example of
19:22cowboys and Indians is exactly that.
19:26It's really growing up that you realize
19:28that, oh, it's not necessarily the
19:30things we see in Westerns, the things
19:32that make sense, that do justice. And I
19:36wanted to ask you, Medy, in particular.
19:38Well, what game are we talking about
19:40exactly? Do you have names of games,
19:42types of games that are a bit recurrent
19:45and that have this pattern? This
19:48pattern of embodying hegemony, a bit of
19:51hegemonic discourse? In fact, well, you
19:54mentioned quite a few war games.
19:56Yeah.
19:56And it's true that it's really the site
19:59par excellence of this imperialist
20:01propaganda discourse and unfortunately,
20:04it doesn't change much.
20:07But then they create it for you in
20:09universes with extraterrestrials,
20:11things like that. Hello, you say, OK,
20:15well, we're fighting against
20:16extraterrestrials. So, suddenly, it's
20:19possible that we've targeted a
20:21particular ethnic group but it's still
20:23always foreign.
20:25Yeah. Even in medieval fantasy games,
20:27where orcs are represented in a way
20:28that makes you think, "Oh, isn't there
20:30some thought behind that?" What? But
20:33it's true that we were talking about
20:35games like Tropico, Resident Evil 5,
20:37where there were major controversies
20:39about the representation of Arabs and
20:41black people. Far Cry, Battlefield, and
20:46Battlefield 3, with a really crude
20:48vision of Iran.
20:52Call of Duty and the like love doing
20:54that. I call it Arabistan, because it's
20:56usually "no, but the bad Arabs", always
20:59the bad terrorists. And then, I don't
21:01know if you've noticed, they usually
21:02put a kind of filter, a bit greenish or
21:04a bit orange, to clearly indicate that
21:06this is not the Western world and that
21:07they are the bad guys, and that they
21:09are the ones who need to be killed.
21:10Yeah, it's like in
21:12the movies, when you're in Mexico, it's
21:14more orange and yellow, of course, and
21:16when you're in the United States, it's
21:19more blue and green. Yeah,
21:23the colorimetry that you put on a
21:25country systematically influences the
21:28way you perceive it. Often, a hot
21:31country is a dirty country, a
21:32country that isn't very developed, and
21:35they all generally resemble what we
21:40were talking about earlier, but in
21:42Resident Evil 5, we're going to play a
21:44kind of white savior who comes with his
21:47team to kill zombies, Africans in Kenya
21:49. They exterminate the Africans who are
21:53zombies, and no one asked the question,
21:55well, that could actually seem
21:57problematic. They still have a Kenan
22:00woman on their team, but to be honest,
22:02she doesn't really look like a Kenan,
22:04they just made us think she was a Kenan
22:07because they put her skin a little
22:09darker. She's exoticized because, well,
22:13she wears clothes, she has leopard
22:15skins and the like, very sexualized,
22:18and she's supposedly a bit of a
22:20guarantee to go and kill some kignans.
22:23So in fact, there's no thought given to
22:26what message it could send to propose a
22:28concept like that.
22:30Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, we cut you
22:32off, you were saying Sorry, you
22:34intervened.
22:35No, but I think the main thing is, yes,
22:37yes. Well, after that, uh, the thing is
22:40that we can also focus on, I would say,
22:43the American representations of the
22:45issue, but it's something that's much
22:47broader than that. These are problems
22:51that go beyond American imperialism
22:53with its specificities. And then, well,
22:57for the example of Resident Evil 5,
22:59what's interesting is that it's a
23:01Japanese game that's made for the
23:03global market. And what's interesting
23:06is that the controversies surrounding
23:09the game and its racism were built
23:11around the promotional material and the
23:13trailer. That is to say, there's also
23:17this thing where, well, when you play a
23:20game, there's always a moment when you
23:23forget, well, the nature of the
23:25opponents and so on. That's not really
23:28the point in this type of game anymore,
23:31because in this type of survival game,
23:34exploration and combat, it's not really
23:36about the story, it's not like Last of
23:39Us. You don't expect a polished story
23:41with complex characters. Well, there
23:44are often outlets.
23:46Yeah. And so, there's always a moment,
23:49it's interesting when you do surveys
23:51with people of color and gender and
23:53sexual minorities. You ask them, "But
23:56in the end, does this really matter to
23:57you?" Well, it actually matters in
23:59terms of representation in relation to
24:02the visual material, in relation to the
24:04image as it is fixed,
24:06but once people actually play, they say
24:07, "Well, at that point, in fact, it
24:09doesn't matter so much anymore because,
24:11very concretely, whether the character
24:13is white or black, in fact, I don't
24:14even see it anymore because it doesn't
24:16change anything in the game." Hm
24:18hm. And it's true that that's also the
24:21question of, well, representation: it's
24:23that at a given moment, if it's not a
24:26subject in the game, if race is not a
24:28subject in the game, for example, well
24:31in fact, we can change the colors or
24:33the gender of the characters, that's it
24:36, it doesn't have any...No, no, it
24:38doesn't change much. Yes, in fact, I
24:41did, of course, because with Michael,
24:43we also work a lot on these issues.
24:45We've talked a little bit about North
24:47African and Arab heroes, but in the end
24:49, we know very few of them. I wouldn't
24:52say Prince of Persia, maybe Shai, I
24:54think, or Shin in Teken. Well, I don't
24:59see many Arab heroes. It's always
25:02difficult to quote them
25:04in a very stereotypical way.
25:05There you have it. Otherwise, they're
25:06very stereotypical. It is clear that
25:09they are also the big bad theorists
25:10found in the popular war games that we
25:12are all familiar with as well. Africans
25:15, of course, have to be saved because
25:16they can never take their destiny into
25:18their own hands. We also have
25:21African-Americans who are treated
25:23differently. They're usually gangsters,
25:25criminals. I'm thinking of GTA, of
25:28course! Because even if we love the
25:31game, we don't forget that, well,
25:33generally, when I ask people to name a
25:35main hero in a black video game, if
25:37it's not Spider-Man My Mover, it's
25:39Franklin in GTA. So in fact, he remains
25:43an icon for people, but he's an icon of
25:46crime, excuse me. So, I would also like
25:49to talk about the subject of
25:51whitewashing and cultural appropriation
25:53in video games, which exists a lot in
25:55cinema, we know it well in cinema but
25:58much less in the video game world. It
26:01has happened several times that Asian
26:03countries have decided to whiten the
26:05skin of a character who originally had
26:07dark skin. I'm thinking of Barrette in
26:10Final Fantasy. In Final Fantasy, I
26:12think that's an example that you know
26:14well and that you like.
26:15Yes. Yes. On this one, it's true that
26:18it was a representation that looked a
26:19bit like Barrauda, you see, in the
26:21tourist agency, it's with a crest, you
26:23know, a bit gruff. Indeed, in most of
26:25the works, well gradually after Final
26:27Fantasy VI, we saw that his skin was
26:28gradually whitening and that people,
26:30not only didn't care, but I think that
26:32there were comments a little from the
26:34community saying: "Look, he's a black
26:36character." Then, little by little,
26:38when making a series or film, he would
26:40whitewash him to be, so to speak, more
26:41marketable, to ensure that it would
26:43work better in terms of marketing,
26:44rather than not. Yeah,
26:46it would sell a little more apparently.
26:48There's also the example of
26:50whitewashing in Gching Impact which is
26:52still a very, very well-known online
26:55multiplayer game, very, very, very big.
26:57In fact, in Gching Impact, well, there
26:59is something called biomes and so they
27:01created biomes where they were inspired
27:03by Africa and certain regions of Africa
27:06, of course, without ever offering
27:07dark-skinned characters, or at least
27:09black characters and so on. So
27:11basically, there is a real issue about
27:15white washing and cultural
27:17appropriation. So could you talk to us
27:20and explain a little bit about why it
27:22can ultimately be problematic to make
27:24these appropriations?
27:27Well, on the issue of white washing, it
27:28is indeed a very big issue in the
27:30cultural industries in general. There
27:32are always debates. Why do we put a
27:33black character? It is not realistic
27:35and so on. In fact, there are three
27:37points that are really important to
27:39remember on this issue. The first is
27:42the claim of historical realism or
27:44authenticity, which will say, well, in
27:46fact, we don't put people of color
27:48because it's not realistic. At the time
27:51, there weren't any or whatever.
27:53The second argument is to say,
27:55we saw it in Assassin's Creed Shadows
27:57in the first episode.
27:59Yeah. Exactly. Also, in universes that
28:01are often good even if they are
28:02historically inspired, they take a lot
28:04of liberties with history. But then
28:06they wouldn't take it on that by chance
28:08. Uh, assuming that this is indeed the
28:12case, when of course medieval societies
28:14were also, for example, very
28:16multicultural in many ways. So in short
28:20, the second argument is now the one in
28:22the somewhat cultural competition for
28:24visibility, it's the one of white
28:26visibility. It's
28:27going to say, well yes, we white people
28:30also have the right to have our place
28:32and to be and to be visible. Okay, so
28:36this is an argument that also shows us
28:38the limits of, how can I put it,
28:40identity politics and the question of
28:42claiming a place, uh, in a visibility,
28:45a regime of visibility that is in fact
28:47just the product of a hegemony. Hm
28:50hm.
28:51Uh, in fact, the real goal would be to
28:53conquer hegemony, that is to say, the
28:55ability to determine what is normal.
28:58Okay.
28:58And not to continue to be included in
29:01some kind of diversity panel. We say,
29:05well, there's a bit of black, a bit of
29:06Arab, a bit of gay, a bit of lesbian,
29:08and so on. But all of that is
29:11determined by the norm
29:12that always remains the same.
29:14The norm being,
29:16well, the norm being white if it's
29:18heterosexual and essentially masculine.
29:21So suddenly,
29:23inevitably, well, as long as we're in
29:25there in this register, in fact that's
29:26what we have to understand. The key is
29:29to succeed in changing the nature of
29:31hegemony. And the third point, well, I
29:35forgot what I wanted to say, but it was
29:37very interesting. Maybe I'll remember
29:40it. That's
29:41okay. But it's true that I've always
29:44found it quite problematic because it
29:46doesn't stop with the game either.
29:49Finally, there are times when, still in
29:51Genching Impact that I was talking
29:53about earlier, for example, they make
29:55characters do dances and you see that
29:57these are dances that come from, from,
29:59from black content creators who are
30:01never, by the way, paid for the
30:03trolling that they do. That was also
30:06the case a lot in Fortnite. Can we say
30:09today that this is problematic or
30:11should we let it go, in your opinion?
30:13Yeah. And maybe to clarify Gunch Impact
30:17, which is a Chinese game, so it's free
30:19and a bit of a fantasy game where you
30:21create your character and then, sorry,
30:24you buy your characters, and then
30:26Fortnite, where you're in a shooter
30:28where the goal is to eliminate everyone
30:31around you, in the arena. Yeah. So,
30:36you have your question specifically, is
30:38cultural appropriation problematic in
30:40this type of game? Well, is it, are we
30:43actually doing it by taking an interest
30:45in this, this, this, this theme, or is
30:47it, in your opinion, just doing it
30:49because it can really cause problems?
30:52Well, it's not overdoing it. From the
30:54moment it affects you, it's normal to
30:56express it
30:58and in fact, uh, for me, you ask
30:59yourself the question of is it too much
31:02? I think that in reality you don't
31:03really ask yourself that question, but
31:07people say that it's too much because
31:09it challenges their own sensitivity,
31:11their own hegemony, and they don't want
31:13to ask themselves questions most of the
31:15time. In fact, when it happens, like
31:18when you tell someone who makes a
31:19racist joke to you and you tell them
31:21it's racist and they say, "Oh, come on,
31:23that's okay," it's because these are
31:25people who don't want to question
31:27anything. They don't want to think,
31:30especially when it comes to video games
31:31. That's it. These are people who, like
31:34with TV, will say, "I just sit down at
31:35night and watch this because it calms
31:36my brain. They don't want to think,
31:39really."
31:40Yeah. While we are in a process where
31:44we are asking ourselves a question, we
31:46are in a societal reflection where we
31:48say to ourselves, "This doesn't suit me
31:50" or "Maybe we can improve this." We
31:54are more in a discussion and sometimes
31:56also in a claim, but it is legitimate.
32:00And you can't tell people who feel
32:02oppressed, "Oh, it's okay, it's not an
32:05argument, really." Come on, let's talk.
32:08We're going to give you some figures,
32:10you're not going to like them, and
32:12you're going to understand why we're a
32:14little angry or tired.
32:16Yeah. I'm just going to react to that,
32:18but I think it's all the more important
32:20when you have children who grow up with
32:23these games. Today, video games are the
32:26world's leading cultural industry,
32:28ahead of cinema, music, and everything
32:30else. Most teenagers and young people
32:33play video games today. So, in my
32:35opinion, it's also important to ask
32:36ourselves the question of children's
32:38consumption, you see.
32:40And maybe also, as we were saying
32:42earlier, Africa is not a big consumer
32:44of video games. Well, it's not a big
32:48part of the video game industry in
32:50terms of turnover, but in terms of the
32:52number of players, I understand. But
32:55what I mean is that maybe the fact that
32:57they don't feel represented also plays
33:00a role in the lack of interest, for
33:02example, of the population. If, uh, if
33:05you know, it's as if I'm constantly
33:07being shown films or movies that don't
33:09speak to me, you know.
33:11Obviously, at some point, I will lose
33:13interest in it, even if I might be
33:14missing out on something. And so the
33:16idea of going out, so to speak, to seek
33:18out this population and telling them
33:20that you too exist in these virtual
33:22worlds, because in the real world it's
33:24already complicated. So if even in
33:26virtual worlds we're not present,
33:27that's it.
33:28Uh, I think this is a market that could
33:31open up if we talked to people and
33:36listened to their sensibilities and
33:38needs.
33:38Yeah. Well, it's true that I had a
33:41question about the potential for hidden
33:44or ordinary racism that is present in
33:46games because they are made by Western
33:48countries. Finally, often through the
33:52stories, there is an issue of
33:53domination that is intrinsic to video
33:55games, namely that, well, it's often
33:57the good guys against the bad guys,
33:59it's often a question of antagonism,
34:01and sometimes even in the very design
34:03of these games, which are, well, if we
34:05think of open worlds where you have to
34:07go and collect resources, that kind of
34:09thing. Here is my question for both of
34:13you, whether there is a kind of hidden
34:15racism that doesn't say its name, that
34:17is a bit diffuse through these games or
34:18, uh, if it's not racism, what is it?
34:25This question is perhaps linked to the
34:26issue of white washing and where the
34:28third point was the issue of artistic
34:29license, freedom of expression, the
34:31fact of being able to do this because
34:32it's an artistic gesture. For me, it's
34:37really the issue of what we call the
34:41visibility regime, that is to say the
34:43conditions to which we must subject
34:45ourselves in order to be visible, to
34:48become visible. Well, that's the word,
34:50huh? What does it mean, black, white,
34:53Asian or all that? These are categories
34:55that are created by the existence of
34:57social relations of race.
34:59If that weren't the case, if there
35:01wasn't this racial order that is a
35:02racist order, well, in fact, it
35:04wouldn't mean anything in itself.
35:07Uh, black people in Africa don't think
35:09of themselves as black,
35:11and then it becomes an identity that we
35:13claim in order to gain visibility in an
35:15order that is determined by these
35:17hierarchies. So typically when we look
35:21at literature, video game or film
35:22adaptations of books, there are many
35:24books that don't ask the question or
35:26describe the ethnicity of the character
35:28.
35:29Yes.
35:30And so everyone can project themselves
35:32and imagine what they want from that
35:34point of view. And then when we do the
35:36adaptation, well, the question arises:
35:38what does this character look like? I
35:41was giving a recent example with my
35:43students, which is The Wheel of Time
35:47by Robert Jordan. It started out as a
35:49series of books and then it became a
35:52very, very successful series on Prime,
35:54which is a really great series, really
35:56successful. And so, well, there's a
35:59main character who's a sort of white
36:01magician and so on. She's a woman, and
36:04I imagine that for the casting, they
36:06chose to use a white actress because
36:08they thought, well, she's still a
36:10central character, and even if we put
36:12diversity around her, we don't take the
36:15risk of them. Okay. She's always
36:19accompanied in the novel by a sidekick
36:21who is both her alter ego, her defender
36:23, her companion and her defender. And
36:26so, her ethnicity isn't described in
36:28the novel
36:29and in the series, he's Asian.
36:32And we think, well, on the one hand,
36:34that's interesting, it gives visibility
36:36to an Asian person. It's also something
36:39that's quite rare in Western Hollywood
36:41representation, and on the other hand,
36:43we think, but why? It turns out that
36:46the relationship between the two is
36:48necessarily a man and a woman. It's in
36:50the novel, that's how it is. They
36:51couldn't have changed that. B, we say
36:53to ourselves, "Well, yeah, but if they
36:55had put a black man with a white woman
36:57in the American context, well,
37:00that would have been much more
37:02problematic because obviously black men
37:04are stereotypically associated with
37:06hypersexuality and the threat they pose
37:09to white women."
37:10So, that would have been a problem even
37:12if, within the story, they have no
37:13connection at all. And so, well, we
37:16can't put an Arab either for similar
37:19reasons, let's say. The advantage of
37:22Asians is that the racist stereotype is
37:24that they actually have small penises
37:26and that, well, in fact, they're not
37:28really hyper-virile men, you know, they
37:30don't have hair and so on, and so,
37:32logically, in this visibility regime,
37:34they can embody a form of masculinity
37:36that won't represent a sexual shame for
37:38white women.
37:41Because they also correspond to the
37:42myth of the Modenese minority as
37:44Yes. There you go, that's it. That
37:46won't be discussed too much,
37:49and so it will pass, which is also the
37:50problem regarding the visibility.
37:53Uh, that is to say, we are still
37:55constrained by these standards in
37:56reality, even if we become more visible
37:59. Hmm,
38:00very good.
38:01That's a great example. In fact, we can
38:04, it's a, how to say, a parallel that
38:06we can draw as well, as you said, in
38:08films, series, video games, and in the
38:10cultural environment in general. Uh, I
38:13would also like us to react to the
38:15stereotypes that are assigned to women
38:16in video games, especially non-white
38:17women. We talked a little bit earlier
38:20about Resident Evil with the character,
38:23what's his name? Cheva Alomar, who was
38:26archaic. I talked not so long ago about
38:29Miarizu, the latest character in Teken
38:31who is Malagasy and who has been
38:33sexualized to the max, even though she
38:34is barely an adult. Of course, because
38:38otherwise it wouldn't be normal. My
38:40observation is that there is still a
38:42long way to go before these characters
38:45are sexualized for no reason, because
38:47it's not just the sexualization that is
38:49annoying, it's the fact that it's not
38:51really useful to the game. We can also
38:55talk about Citra in the game Far Cry,
38:57who you have to sleep with in a fairly
38:58obvious way to progress in the game. We
39:03can talk about Helena in Street Fighter
39:05, who is supposed to be Kenyan but who
39:07ends up with light skin, long hair, and
39:10clothes that make her look like an
39:12animal. The Japanese love to do that in
39:15fighting games, I don't know why. So my
39:18question for you, Medy, is why do you
39:21think we have so much trouble
39:23considering that sexualization can also
39:25be a problem, because it's a video game
39:28, because it's about fictional
39:30characters. Why do people have so much
39:32trouble accepting that it could be a
39:34problem
39:35and then reacting to it? Well, I think
39:37it's because the industry asks itself
39:40the question of its audience and says,
39:42"Okay, we're going to address straight
39:44guys, teenagers or post-advertising
39:47guys, and that's what they'll like." So
39:50there's already that, and then it's a
39:52reality of the audience, but as you
39:53also said, the issue of sexuality is
39:55very political, and there are many
39:57minorities who have taken political
39:59ownership of the issue of sexuality. In
40:02the big-name video games, there's
40:04Bayonetta. Yes. And Marion Koville
40:07wrote about it to clearly show that, in
40:10fact, the question of the sexualization
40:12of the character also became political
40:14from a gender perspective, because
40:16there was a lot of work and thought
40:18involved, and in playing the character,
40:20well, we were distancing ourselves from
40:22this objectification and fetishization
40:24of the body, uh, the sexualized female
40:26body. And yet it is a Japanese game,
40:29and yet, one could say it remains a
40:31mainstream title after all. It's not,
40:33it's not, it's not a niche game. So we
40:35can see that, well, there are still
40:37things that happen. So, I always have
40:41the impression that the titles you
40:43mentioned are still fighting games, we
40:44always talk a lot about war games and
40:46so on. Those are the most stereotyped
40:49places.
40:49Yeah.
40:50Uh, also. So that doesn't mean that in
40:52the other most popular games too.
40:54And the most popular, but again, it all
40:56depends on how you define the popular
40:57and the majority. If the majority is
41:01the sum of minorities, I'm more certain
41:04that it's as large a majority as what
41:07we consider a majority as a homogeneous
41:10group. OK.
41:12If you just take the boys I was talking
41:14about, this group of specific boys that
41:15I was talking about with a few girls
41:17who also play. Uh, in general, in the
41:21surveys that I've been able to do in
41:23France, we'll have maybe around 15 to
41:2620%of girls playing war games, for
41:28example.
41:28There you have it, two girls. Yeah.
41:29Yeah. Who play, who play, and often
41:32online incognito, when they're what
41:34I've seen.
41:35Yeah. Yeah. And so, well, if you add
41:38them up, if you take them as a girl and
41:40you look at what other people play, and
41:43so on, you realize that there are still
41:45people who play only, you see,
41:47Battlefield or Call of Duty, and
41:49sometimes they are even exclusive. They
41:53play a war game, they are exclusive to
41:54a license and so on. Well, you will see
41:57that the others actually play a little
41:59too, but they will also be elsewhere
42:01and everything, and well, in the end,
42:02you realize that it is the majority, it
42:04is perhaps not as stable as that.
42:07The thing about minorities is, well, it
42:10is the fact of being scattered and not
42:12being aware of all the points of
42:14sharing and communication. That is a
42:16little bit what makes them weak.
42:17You will add something to
42:18Yes. Because you were talking about the
42:20sexualization of women in games. The
42:23example that immediately comes to mind
42:25is Dead or Alive, of course,
42:27which was a game that was basically
42:29Taken but with women in swimsuits.
42:33And I was really young and when I saw
42:35this game I thought, yeah, no, but this
42:37girl's really big. It was obvious. You
42:40know exactly who you're talking to,
42:43because we were in a period when guys
42:47didn't think that women also played
42:49video games. Here, you say that it
42:52represents 15 to 20%, and it's true
42:53that
42:54in these games today it's all over the
42:56place.
42:56Yes. Yes. But what I mean is that in
42:59the end, there are quite a few girls
43:01who pick up girls in fighting games and
43:04who
43:07see in them a certain idea of
43:09emancipation that they wouldn't be able
43:11to have in real life and so on. So, I
43:14agree that these aren't necessarily
43:16beautiful representations when they
43:17don't give you a choice about how you
43:19dress and how you represent women. But
43:23it is true that, when it comes to body
43:24diversity, women in video games always
43:26have to be hot, if you want to put it
43:27that way. Just like in reality, a lot
43:31of guys, most of the time the heroes
43:32are bodybuilders or have incredible
43:34bodies and so
43:37you question yourself, there's still a
43:39lot
43:40more representation of bodies in
43:41fighting games. Since we were talking
43:44about these games, in this case, men,
43:46uh, you don't see any big women in
43:48fighting games, like Street Fighter.
43:51There was a sort of big, muscular
43:53female character, a bit like in The
43:55Last of Us, where there was Abi, for
43:58example. It also caused controversy
44:01because she was kind of like a Roman
44:04warrior. Anyway, all of that is always
44:07a bit controversial, but I think, I'm
44:09convinced that
44:10these controversies are necessary, they
44:11help move things forward. Yes, yes,
44:12absolutely,
44:13because they force a debate that people
44:14don't want to have. As I was saying
44:17earlier, there are just people who
44:19don't want to ask questions, and
44:21creating these controversies, creating
44:23this character in something where you
44:26have 20 or 30 more, is minimal, you see
44:28. If you're focusing on that, it's
44:31because it bothers you and it's
44:33interesting to come and tease you. Oh
44:35yes, I completely agree.
44:37Okay. I'd also like to show you a
44:40supposedly educational game, where you
44:43simply manage your little triangular
44:46African slave trade. We cut our teeth.
44:49Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And in this game
44:52there was a level where you have to put
44:54the enslaved people in a slave ship,
44:56but with the sucking mechanism. I'd
45:00like us to watch the clip and then I'd
45:02like to have your reactions right after
45:04. Yeah. There you go, it's called
45:56Playing History 2 Slave Trade and it's
45:58still available on Steam. So, is it
46:01educational or racist? It looks really
46:04good. It makes you want to play it.
46:07That's
46:07not what we expected from you.
46:10I find it crazy that when creating a
46:13game, a certain number of people who
46:16have no soul thought to themselves that
46:19maybe what we're creating is
46:21problematic.
46:24You know, because it's not something
46:25spontaneous. They spent time creating
46:28this thing, and that says something
46:30about the technical team, the team that
46:32created the game, the marketing team,
46:33the team that accepted the game that
46:35wasn't supposed to have
46:37much gender diversity in it.
46:39This is a Danish studio, a studio from
46:42Denmark that made this game that is
46:45still available online. So, they
46:48removed the sucking part because of
46:49course it caused controversy, but the
46:51fact that the game actually exists on a
46:53platform is already crazy enough to me.
46:56They removed the Tetris part, but on
46:58the other hand, you can still do your
47:00little triangular trade, and it's a
47:01game that supposedly aims to be
47:03educational and rewards you for being a
47:04good slave trader. I find that pretty
47:07crazy. Yeah, I have no words or
47:10comments. I didn't know this game
47:12existed, but it's a bit like the
47:13neo-Nazi concentration account
47:15management games that also exist. I
47:18don't know how successful this game is,
47:22which doesn't seem to be very fun in
47:25its mechanics and everything. So I
47:28imagine it's going to remain a niche
47:30game. But anyway, the simple fact that,
47:33as you said, we went all the way with
47:34this idea, is pretty astounding. Or
47:37maybe it simply says something about
47:39the political opinions
47:40of the studio that produced it. Yes, to
47:43offend people who also wanted to get
47:45their message across. I think that
47:48sometimes the buzz is still just
47:49advertising, and maybe no one would
47:51have ever talked about this game if
47:53there hadn't been this section and they
47:55had anticipated it to make themselves
47:57known to their community. So, in your
48:01opinion, what type of story could
48:03emerge tomorrow that could go in the
48:05direction of decolonial video games?
48:09We've already mentioned, for example,
48:11the game Toole, which is a game where
48:13you have to return to the Africans the
48:15artifacts scattered throughout the
48:17Western world, but there are games like
48:19Teranil, for example, which take the
48:21logic of a strategy game but for which
48:23you have to return the land to nature.
48:26So you forget all about space and then
48:29little by little the fauna and flora
48:31take back their place. So I'll ask you
48:34both this question. Are there other
48:36things that you have in mind that could
48:38tell all this and that could be another
48:40way of promoting video games? Since, as
48:43we've said throughout the discussion,
48:45it's primarily shooting games, action
48:47games that are being promoted. There
48:49you go. So do you have any ideas or
48:50leads? Well, I'm not an ideologue and I
48:54always avoid saying, "We should do this
48:57or that" because I believe that it's
49:00always the product of collective
49:02reflection and collective work. So in
49:06this case, I can't say, "We should do
49:08this or that." All
49:10I can see is that, indeed, there is a
49:12bit of a war of imaginations and that
49:14there are imaginations that need to be
49:16reclaimed and developed in order to
49:18propose another vision, conception of
49:20human relationships, social
49:22relationships, cultural relationships
49:24and, well, our relationship to the
49:26world in general. So this is an initial
49:28piece of work that I'm talking about in
49:30general terms, without any specific
49:32examples. We also need to avoid the
49:35trap in games, I think, of things like
49:37Never Alone, which are presented as
49:40games that are co-developed with
49:42indigenous communities, for example, by
49:45taking elements of their culture, their
49:50narrative and including them in a game
49:53that also has mechanics that we are all
49:55familiar with. There you have it. Why
50:00do I say it's a trap? because in fact
50:02it's a bit like Curtis's photos of the
50:05last Indians
50:07and then we say "Yeah, we're going to
50:09look at them in La Rochelle and" and
50:10then we say "Oh yes, these are the
50:11photos of the last Indians and now
50:13they've disappeared but they're
50:14beautiful photos. It's a bit like games
50:17like that because we're going to
50:19capture a memory that is disappearing
50:21but it is ultimately made heritage in
50:23the game, in the very mechanics of the
50:25game.
50:28So there are a lot of games like that
50:30that are both interesting because
50:31obviously they allow us to make
50:33something visible, stories, a point of
50:35view but at the same time they create a
50:37heritage that is the opposite of the
50:38living and the dynamics of the living.
50:41And so it also means socially
50:43recreating the economic conditions for
50:45another video game to emerge. And in
50:48today's capitalism, well it's very,
50:50very difficult.
50:52So but it must first go through Here,
50:54we need to keep our imaginations alive
50:56and recreate different economic
50:58conditions so that other proposals can
51:00emerge through collective work. Yes,
51:02this is largely achieved through
51:04independent video games. I think we are
51:07at a stage where we can no longer
51:08expect the big studios that create them
51:10to offer us completely different
51:12stories. What kind of story would you
51:14like to see in a video game in the near
51:16future?
51:19I don't know if I can tell you that I
51:20would like to see something in
51:21particular. In fact, I think more in a
51:26global way. I wanted to talk about D3:
51:29Become Human. It's a game about
51:33emancipation, but features a mixed-race
51:36Android. But I think that, well, there
51:40are several characters in the game, but
51:42the truth is that I think that it's
51:44through these means, by playing
51:46different points of view of the same
51:49situation, that we can make the
51:50different points of view heard in a
51:53society. So here, These are androids,
51:56so as not to talk about slavery or
51:57anything, but the message is there.
51:59They are clearly inspired by the
52:01history of Afro-Americans.
52:02Exactly. So I think it was a gateway.
52:08That is to say, you are going to talk
52:10to people who are not aware of these
52:13subjects by making them ask themselves
52:15questions in a more or less subtle way.
52:18I think that it was a good step, or at
52:20least a good first step. And then, I
52:25think you used an interesting term,
52:27which is that independent games, like
52:29independent films, allow us to address
52:32issues that we will not see in the
52:34big-budget industry. We will never see
52:38a film by, I don't know, Nolan or
52:41something like that, talking about
52:43discrimination. In fact, to talk about
52:47discrimination, we are going to change
52:49your ethnicity with aliens, androids.
52:53That's what happens with Avatar. You
52:55see, in order for us to talk about
52:56these subjects, it has to be not
52:57Earthlings, right?
52:58Exactly.
53:00So I think that at some point, there
53:02will be someone who will dare to put
53:04real black people or real Arabs in
53:06these characters and say," This is our
53:08world, actually. "" and the message
53:11will be clearer. Uh, for the moment,
53:14they're still shy. They say it's aliens
53:16or androids.
53:18Well, that raises the question of the
53:19creators. In fact, people who feel also
53:22concerned by all this need to tell
53:23their own story too. But for me, the
53:27problem isn't the creators. The problem
53:30is the producers. Those who put up the
53:33money and the distributors. Because for
53:36me, to speak only of me who wrote a
53:38film, it was supposed to be made three
53:41times.
53:43And in fact the problem is the
53:44distribution. It's not me who had a
53:47problem writing something about living
53:49together. It's just the people who
53:52didn't want to validate my script so
53:54that it could be broadcast.
53:57So, are you finally forced to write
53:58something that could be...
54:00Yeah. that would be validated so that
54:02it could exist,
54:02that would be diluted
54:03and there is People who can't
54:07actually, you know, we often talk about
54:09censorship in the media and so on, but
54:10there's the real problem of
54:12self-censorship in the sense that we
54:13tell ourselves there's no point in
54:15writing something in this direction, I
54:17know that at some point it's going to
54:18be accepted. So, you write based on how
54:21you think people are going to receive
54:23it and say, "Okay, we can put it in."
54:26Typically in my film, when it was a
54:28comedy, I had one of the characters who
54:30was gay and it wasn't a subject at all.
54:33I mean, he was gay but in fact it had
54:35no importance in the story.
54:36And I was asked why he was gay. And I
54:39said, well, because there's no reason
54:41to be gay, actually. There you go, you
54:42see. And when I was able to explain
54:45that, they said, "Oh, okay, that's
54:46interesting." But I was still asked the
54:48question of why he's gay. I had to
54:50justify why the character was gay in
54:52the story when in fact no one cared.
54:55It's
54:55interesting. It's exactly the same
54:57thing in video games, you know. When
54:58you're on the creative side, you have
55:00to justify why your character is gay or
55:02trans or black. It also happens in
55:05video game schools. In fact, they don't
55:07leave us alone. We can't just be in
55:09these spaces and just exist. It's
55:11pretty serious. Yeah. Yeah. That was
55:13about
55:14going back to, is all this important?
55:16Is all this? Anyway, so I think it's
55:18essential in the sense that you need to
55:20feel represented to say to yourself, "
55:22OK, it's possible." Absolutely. That's
55:24all it is, really. It's just telling
55:27yourself, "We can exist in a different
55:28way than being a gangster." That's all
55:32it is, imagining other possibilities
55:34allows kids to say, "Oh, OK, it's true
55:36that I hadn't considered the
55:37possibility in my head that I could do
55:40that."
55:41Uh, the representation of a black
55:43astronaut, a female astronaut, and so
55:46on, it's all silly. But the fact of
55:48having had them makes
55:50you say, "OK, it's possible."
55:51Yeah. For other people, and so people
55:53who might have limited themselves to
55:55certain training or certain dead ends,
55:57can say, "No, but actually I can do
55:59other things too." That's just what we
56:02would like to have, and for it to be
56:04natural and for it not necessarily to
56:06be a debate about why there is a person
56:08who looks like that in a certain place.
56:11That's it.
56:11And just like us, we've been able to
56:13play white people our whole lives, and
56:15it would be cool if white people could
56:16say, "But I can play a black person and
56:18it's the same." That's
56:19OK.
56:19Yeah. So, that's completely fair, and
56:23at the same time, the paradox is to see
56:26the range of what is desirable, of
56:29desirable incarnations. And when we
56:33look at that, in fact, we'll realize,
56:36well yes, it's great to be able to see
56:38sporting success, political success,
56:41Obama and so on, but the models that
56:44are produced, apart from the issue of
56:47racial identification, are not that
56:49different from the model that we
56:52criticize. That is to say, it's just
56:55becoming a business leader, becoming a
57:00politician in the system in which we
57:02live. If it's just becoming something
57:07like that,
57:09well, that's not going to work, it's
57:11not going to go very far in the end.
57:15And so, at the same time, that's what's
57:18available.
57:18Yeah. And so, uh, that's why, for me,
57:21we shouldn't expect video games to
57:23transform society. They'll come to work
57:26to confirm the ideas we have and we'll
57:29build ourselves in opposition or in
57:31support, for example. But that's how it
57:35works. It's not going to transform
57:37society. On the other hand, it's in
57:39society, it's society that has
57:41transformed itself to have another
57:42possible video game and other possible
57:44representations.
57:46Yes, because we're all stupid, but
57:48everything is capitalism,
57:50and so in the end, if people produce
57:52games tomorrow and think that there's a
57:54market share with active people who buy
57:56them, well, it's stupid, but they'll
57:58actually do it.
58:00So that is what our power is, it lies
58:03in what we choose to buy and to whom we
58:05give our money. It works in every
58:08sector of culture and society, such as
58:11clothing companies, it really does not
58:13matter. It's who you give your money to
58:16and when you choose who you give your
58:18money to, when you choose who you
58:19boycott, well you influence society.
58:22Well,
58:23thank you for these wonderful
58:25discussions. We'll go straight to your
58:28recommendations. So the watchlist, the
58:31watchlist, the playlist. Well Kim, if
58:34you'd like to start, do you have a
58:36movie to watch, a series to recommend,
58:38a show to go watch?
58:39Apart from yours.
58:42Besides mine, no, nothing to see. Uh, I
58:46saw Penguin recently, the Penguin
58:49series yes.
58:51Uh, I'd heard a lot of good things
58:52about it and indeed, it's very, very
58:54good. It's very interesting. Based on
58:56Batman, right? So
58:57exactly, the last Batman with Robert
59:00Pattinson and this is Penguin played by
59:02Coline Farel and she acts very, very
59:04well. It's very coherent. Uh, well,
59:08it's a very good series.
59:11Yeah. I really enjoyed it too. I didn't
59:13expect much from it.
59:15Uh, I actually saw the movie Batman The
59:18Batman and I actually preferred the
59:20series to the movie. So it's really,
59:23really cool. Good to know,
59:25but I will not talk about video games
59:27or series, because otherwise I would
59:28lack originality. I'd say Arcane,
59:30Castlevania, and The Last of Us show.
59:34That's
59:35great too. Yeah, okay, but that seemed
59:38a bit obvious. So, I thought about
59:40books because I was talking about the
59:42imaginary earlier and well, that's also
59:45how we feed on the imaginary with
59:47literature, especially fantastic
59:48literature, science fiction and fantasy
59:51that exists with people like Jamie
59:53today. Anyway, Octavia Butler, there
59:55are lots and lots of things. And there
59:57are two people. So, there's Master of
59:59Jeans by Pell Clark,
1:00:02which is a sort of improbable mix of
1:00:04steampunk, orientalizing, in a car
1:00:06reimagined at the beginning of the 20th
1:00:09century with jeans, magic, and so on,
1:00:11but it's done in a way that's really
1:00:13subtle and not exoticizing. PJ Clark
1:00:18also wrote Ring Shoutout, which is
1:00:19really, really good, about thinking
1:00:21about the situation of black people in
1:00:23the United States, about white
1:00:25supremacy. And you can feel that he
1:00:27really has this...He's also a history
1:00:29professor at the university, you can
1:00:31really feel that he has this political
1:00:33reflection behind his writing. and then
1:00:35someone else who is Rebecca Kang whose
1:00:38books are not hugely successful in
1:00:40French but who nevertheless won the
1:00:42Locus Prize and the Nebula Prize with
1:00:44Babel,
1:00:46the highest prize in SF. And Babel is
1:00:48really very interesting because the
1:00:50reception was incredible in the
1:00:52English-speaking world, and then in
1:00:53France, people criticized the fact that
1:00:55she had overly caricatured white
1:00:57characters who are all racist. And I
1:01:00found that interesting because what I
1:01:02have experienced in my life, and well,
1:01:05it is a bit true. It is that even the
1:01:09nicest people at some point, well,
1:01:10there is always something racist that
1:01:11comes out,
1:01:13but her book is really very interesting
1:01:15. It tells the story of a Chinese
1:01:17orphan who is taken in by an Oxford
1:01:20professor who brings him to Great
1:01:22Britain. So it takes place in a
1:01:24reimagined 19th century imperial
1:01:26Britain and he works in a translation
1:01:28department and realizes that these
1:01:30issues of translation and language are
1:01:32at the heart of imperialist policies
1:01:34and that leads him to ask himself a
1:01:36whole bunch of political questions. And
1:01:40it's really a novel that deals with
1:01:42this issue well. Then, she also wrote
1:01:44The War of the Pau which is only the
1:01:46first volume that has unfortunately
1:01:47been translated and is also really
1:01:49fantastic.
1:01:50Okay. The name of the book.
1:01:52So, there's Babel, Rebecca Kuang and
1:01:55Master of Jeans by P Jelly Clark.
1:01:58I find it funny that we can accuse
1:02:01white characters from the 19th century
1:02:03of being racist in England when even
1:02:05today, there are many of them. There
1:02:09were manhunts not long ago. That's
1:02:10clear.
1:02:11So I think we're completely in it, huh?
1:02:14Well,
1:02:14listen, thank you for these
1:02:15recommendations. Let's move on to our
1:02:17reviews.
1:02:18Yes! And I'll start. Can we talk about
1:02:22colonial slavery through video games?
1:02:25And if so, how do we approach such a
1:02:26sensitive subject? I've been thinking
1:02:29about this question since the Gamef
1:02:31media revealed the cancellation of
1:02:32Assassin's Creed, which was supposed to
1:02:34have a former slave fighting the Cuclux
1:02:36Clan, an American white supremacist
1:02:38organization. In 1988, Martinican video
1:02:42game pioneer Muriel Tramis created
1:02:44Freedom, the warriors of the shadows,
1:02:46in which you play as an enslaved person
1:02:48who revolts on an Antibes plantation.
1:02:52The story of the slave as avenger and
1:02:54liberator has since been revisited
1:02:56several times, notably in Assassin's
1:02:58Creed 3, Liberation, whose heroine is
1:03:00born to a white slave-owning father and
1:03:02an enslaved African-American mother.
1:03:05Incidentally, in this game, freeing
1:03:07slaves allows you to earn rewards and
1:03:09new resources to unlock new items. That
1:03:12is when we can ask ourselves a moral
1:03:14question. Is it really ethical to
1:03:16transform acts of human liberation into
1:03:18a simple utilitarian resource? Wouldn't
1:03:21that empty these acts of their meaning?
1:03:24Finally, let's take the example of the
1:03:26strategy game Europa Universalis 4
1:03:28where slavery is treated as a simple
1:03:31economic resource, like tobacco or gold
1:03:33. Conversely, in Fallout New Vegas,
1:03:36which was released in 2007, you can
1:03:38make the moral choice to participate in
1:03:40slave trafficking or not, and taking
1:03:42part systematically generates negative
1:03:44karma, which clearly indicates that
1:03:46slavery is an immoral act. Some games
1:03:49that claim to be educational have not
1:03:51even asked themselves this question of
1:03:53morality. Since in Playing History 2,
1:03:56Slave Trade, which we mentioned earlier
1:03:58, created by a Danish studio, we are
1:04:00offered the opportunity to suckle, in
1:04:02other words to pile slaves onto a slave
1:04:04ship. We can even make a profit from
1:04:07our small slave trade and be rewarded
1:04:10for it. Yes, this game was released in
1:04:12complete silence before being
1:04:14criticized by the community, and
1:04:15despite everything, it is still
1:04:17available online and that's where we
1:04:19can breathe a sigh of relief together.
1:04:21Ultimately, the complexity and trauma
1:04:23of slavery are rarely addressed in
1:04:25video games. One of the best examples
1:04:27remains Red Dead Redemption 2 from 2018
1:04:29, which offers a slightly more
1:04:31realistic but subtle vision with clues
1:04:33and missions that indicate that even
1:04:35after its official abolition, slavery
1:04:37continued to leave its mark. I will
1:04:41leave you with this question: In the
1:04:42current political context, is it still
1:04:44possible to release a good game that
1:04:45deals with slavery? Could we consider
1:04:48using video games to educate ourselves
1:04:50about slavery, for example? You have 4
1:04:52hours in the comments. And if you want
1:04:54to delve deeper into the subject of
1:04:56history through video games, go follow
1:04:57William Brou's YouTube channel,
1:04:59Histoire en Jeu. So yeah, slavery is
1:05:02still treated in a fairly complex way
1:05:04in video games today, I think.
1:05:07Yeah. Yeah, I think it's super
1:05:09difficult, at least without having
1:05:10really worked on the subject, to be
1:05:12able to address the issues without
1:05:13being caricatures. And not...I think
1:05:17the question of resources is what's
1:05:19fundamental: to avoid this ambivalent
1:05:21thing of thinking "slavery was a
1:05:23resource at the time." So how can all
1:05:26of this, by mixing all of this with
1:05:28gameplay, be something that you can't
1:05:31judge, on which you can have your own
1:05:33judgment on? In the end, you have to
1:05:35avoid being moralistic, and at the same
1:05:37time, let everyone make their own way
1:05:38in their own minds. So it's not easy.
1:05:40The games you give just show that
1:05:45education is just what comes out of a
1:05:48school education, that when you're
1:05:50taught about triangular trade, you're
1:05:52taught about trade resources. You take
1:05:56in labor, you recover metals, gold,
1:05:59things, you trade, you bring back
1:06:01cotton. You're shown it in that way.
1:06:05And so it inevitably stays in the minds
1:06:06of these guys who grew up with this
1:06:08education and when they create a game
1:06:09for you, they create it the way they
1:06:11learned it. Uh, there's a way of
1:06:15teaching about slavery that also needs
1:06:17to change in France, just as we've been
1:06:19teaching for years about World War II
1:06:21and World War I, the Holocaust, and so
1:06:24on. I think we need to do the same work
1:06:27. The only problem is that Western
1:06:30countries don't want to talk about
1:06:32their colonialism, really. They don't
1:06:35even admit it today. And yet, it could
1:06:38actually be a real opportunity to teach
1:06:40people what slavery really was, not by
1:06:42putting people on ships, by doing
1:06:44Tetris games, you know. But maybe there
1:06:47are methods, at least artistic ones,
1:06:49methods that could allow young people
1:06:51in particular to better understand it,
1:06:53because that's also what can create, I
1:06:55want to say, a little tolerance or the
1:06:57fact of seeing that it really existed,
1:07:01of putting ourselves in the shoes of
1:07:03these characters, without traumatizing
1:07:06the people concerned. I know that for
1:07:08many of us, we went to school and as
1:07:10soon as we talked about the slavery
1:07:11period, everyone turned to us because,
1:07:13well, you were the only black person in
1:07:15the room. So maybe there are ways, you
1:07:18know, to educate about that too. That
1:07:21was
1:07:22done during the Obama political period
1:07:23in the United States,
1:07:25where you had films and series that
1:07:27came out.
1:07:28Yeah.
1:07:28From 12 Years of a Slave
1:07:31to others like the mecha titles. To
1:07:33finish up with Black Panther, we really
1:07:36had quite a long reflection.
1:07:39So Django, well, I find it much more
1:07:41problematic. It's
1:07:42Tarantino, you know. You shouldn't
1:07:44expect to think too much. That's what
1:07:45happens
1:07:46in video games, it also raises the
1:07:48question of, well, is it really
1:07:50necessary to play like a Nazi to
1:07:52understand Nazism? Is it necessary to
1:07:55play a slave owner to understand the
1:07:57problems of slavery? Yeah, I'm not sure
1:08:01, even looking at screenshots, for
1:08:03example, is a synequal condition. Well,
1:08:06I think that just the idea of knowing
1:08:08that, I don't need to look at the
1:08:10images behind it to say to myself, "Oh
1:08:12my gosh, just the idea is absolutely
1:08:14atrocious." So that's also a whole
1:08:17reflection that's still difficult to
1:08:19make and move forward in video games.
1:08:24Well, because there's also extremely
1:08:26violent and virulent opposition and
1:08:27resistance when someone takes a
1:08:29position on these issues. We see it
1:08:32with the issue of white washing, we see
1:08:34it with all gender issues. As soon as
1:08:36someone takes a position, there's a
1:08:37sheit storm,
1:08:38but with the game that was canceled,
1:08:41that's also really strong. Did you know
1:08:44that some video games feature Creole?
1:08:46Some where you play dominoes and others
1:08:48where you talk about access to drinking
1:08:49water? Yes, they do exist and some have
1:08:52even won international awards. Let's
1:08:54start with Tia. Tia is a bit like our
1:08:56very own Legend of Zelda. In this game,
1:08:58you play as Tia, a 12-year-old child
1:09:00celebrating her birthday. Her father
1:09:02gets captured and the big bad guy in
1:09:04the area is taunting you. And that's
1:09:07when you board her raft for once, an
1:09:09adventure that will allow her to sail
1:09:11from island to island and discover her
1:09:13superpower, that of being able to
1:09:14embody any animal. In this fictional
1:09:18universe inspired by Kanaki New
1:09:20Caledonia, you visit an open world
1:09:22filled with enchanting music, notably
1:09:24thanks to the yukulele that you hear
1:09:26very regularly in the game, and all of
1:09:28this also accompanied by the local
1:09:30language of Dreou. In 2023, Tia won the
1:09:34Game Award for video game with a
1:09:37positive impact and the Pegas for video
1:09:40game with the best values that take the
1:09:43game beyond the video game. Let's head
1:09:46to Guadeloupe this time with the game
1:09:48Crab en Lola, created by Sami d'Alexi.
1:09:52During the lockdown, Sami created this
1:09:54game to talk about Caribbean folklore
1:09:56and music, especially the Gok flute,
1:09:58which is a bit like the Guadeloupean
1:10:00drum. This game is used to learn Creole
1:10:04, since the game is 100%in the language
1:10:07of the Antilles. I'll also tell you
1:10:09about the game Au secours, which will
1:10:11probably interest you, since it was
1:10:13created by Samora, aka le moastte. In
1:10:15this game, you play as Toupit,
1:10:17accompanied by Moment de l'eau, whose
1:10:18mission is to restore access to
1:10:20drinking water in the region. It's a
1:10:23beautiful allegory that helps raise
1:10:24awareness of the problems in Guadeloupe
1:10:26, and we hope that the Ministry of
1:10:28Others will have the opportunity to try
1:10:30it too. Let's go for another game, this
1:10:34time a little lighter, Planet Taku,
1:10:35which is a fighting game inspired by an
1:10:37Afro-Caribbean manga. Well, like in any
1:10:40fighting game, you use your feet, your
1:10:42points, and your super attacks to get
1:10:43through. And then Domino Clash, this
1:10:47one is very interesting. It's a domino
1:10:49game that is loosely inspired by the
1:10:52board game of our ancestors. Uh, this
1:10:55one is finishing its crowdfunding
1:10:57campaign right now. We hope it will be
1:11:00a success. Come on, one last game this
1:11:03time from Reunion Island, Mafat, where
1:11:05you play as a postman with a magic
1:11:07camera. The idea is to be able to
1:11:09spread good humor within your community
1:11:12. It's a cosmetic game that also won an
1:11:14award at the European Game Night in
1:11:16Germany and we invite you to discover
1:11:18it. And here is the demo on Steam.
1:11:21That's it, I could never be exhaustive
1:11:23enough. So if you have other game ideas
1:11:24to post in the comments, we would be
1:11:26delighted to hear them. Thank you. Well
1:11:29done!
1:11:30Thank you.
1:11:32And we're going to finish the second
1:11:34episode of Disulture now.
1:11:36Yes. In any case, I want to thank our
1:11:38two guests, Hakim and Medy.
1:11:40Yes.
1:11:41And seen on their network in particular
1:11:44.
1:11:45Yeah. Don't forget to go watch Hakim's
1:11:48show called
1:11:49Contexte. Contexte, which you perform
1:11:52at the Théâtre des Maturins every
1:11:54Friday at 7 p.m., and I have a free
1:11:56show on YouTube, which I've only
1:11:58performed once, called Fragment. It's a
1:12:001 hour and 1 minute show. It's all real
1:12:03stories, so if you want to see them,
1:12:04they're less politicized, but they'll
1:12:06give you an idea of my sense of humor.
1:12:08Great, we can't wait. And also, don't
1:12:12hesitate to check out Med Foufi's book
1:12:13Racism and Video Games, which I imagine
1:12:15is still available pretty much
1:12:17everywhere. That's it. Well,
1:12:20given the distribution of bookstores
1:12:22these days, after the book comes out,
1:12:24the book disappears a little bit, but
1:12:26it can still be ordered and ordered in
1:12:30PDF format too. So there you have it,
1:12:32you can also find it online. Don't
1:12:35hesitate to follow Michel and me. I'm
1:12:38Invincible Jane on social media because
1:12:40I'm invincible, that's how it is. And
1:12:43Michael Newton Pro on Instagram. And by
1:12:46the way, as a reminder, CRIU still
1:12:48needs your help. So don't forget to
1:12:52comment, share the videos, subscribe to
1:12:54the channel to support it and then
1:12:56we'll see you next month, hopefully for
1:12:59another sculpture.
1:13:01Thank you. Thank you everyone. See you
1:13:03soon.

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