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Escaping New Zealand’s Gloriavale: Cult Leader’s Granddaughter Exposes ALL — Transcript

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0:01Mine is the only voice. What have I been
0:03doing? Lay down [music] my autonomy.
0:07After that, it got very dark very
0:09quickly.
0:17Hey everybody, welcome back to Cults to
0:18Consciousness. My name is Shalise and
0:20Solace, your host. And we are doing a
0:22follow-up interview to an amazing
0:25amazing interview we did with someone
0:27who left Gloriavale. We've been trying
0:29to get her for such a long time, and I
0:31know all of you were as a stoked as I
0:33was. You've said it in the comments a
0:35million times, but we're going to
0:37continue talking about her story, what
0:39it was like deconstructing from the
0:40religion, and acclimating back into the
0:44real world, or not back into into the
0:46real world real world for the first
0:48time, and things that she has been doing
0:50to help with legislation getting passed
0:52in New Zealand to prevent these cults
0:54from doing culty things. So, thank you
0:56for coming back, Lilia Tarawa.
0:59Hey, hey. Nice to be here again. Loved
1:01talking with you last time, so it's
1:03awesome to be back on.
1:05Yeah, and it's we've had such a great
1:07response, which I told you off camera I
1:09knew that we would because everyone's
1:10been asking for this for so long. I was
1:12going to read one of the comments. Uh
1:14Lilia Tarawa is so powerful. Commend you
1:16for having her on your show. As a Kiwi
1:18watching all this Gloriavale stuff going
1:20on with multiple families, they all
1:22deserve justice. So, I know we're going
1:25to be touching on some of that today,
1:27and I've already seen in the chat. Hey
1:28guys, if you're watching live, thank you
1:30so much for joining us. A lot of people
1:31from your side of the world, and I even
1:33saw someone staying up at 1:30 a.m. in
1:36Sweden. Thank you for doing that. That's
1:38amazing. Wow, the dedication is real.
1:41>> [laughter]
1:41>> I know. And if you have questions right
1:44off the bat, go ahead and drop those
1:46into the live chat. Jonathan will be
1:48pinning those, and we'll get to those in
1:50about 5 minutes as we go through her
1:52story. So, let's just jump right in. For
1:55someone who maybe isn't familiar with
1:57Gloriavale, hasn't seen the first
1:59episode, can you just give a quick
2:01nutshell version of your story so that
2:03everyone's caught up?
2:04Yeah, totally. So, I grew up in a very
2:07isolated religious cult on the west
2:09coast of New Zealand's South Island.
2:11It's called Gloriavale, and was named
2:13after my grandmother Gloria. And the
2:16reason it was named after her is because
2:18the founder of the cult was my
2:19grandfather Neville Cooper, who later
2:21changed his name to a hopeful Christian.
2:24And um pretty much born and raised there
2:26for 18 years. Broke free when I was 18,
2:30and have been figuring out life on the
2:33outside since then.
2:34Yeah, I didn't realize that's why it was
2:37named Gloriavale. We never mentioned
2:39that in the first one.
2:40>> Yeah.
2:40>> Well, that was actually one of the
2:41comments because someone's like
2:43>> Oh, was it?
2:43>> Why is it called Gloriavale?
2:45They all my name's Gloria, and I was
2:47like, yeah, it's named after my
2:49grandmother. So, she actually had 16
2:51children to my grandfather. So, I never
2:54met her. She died of a brain tumor when
2:56I was like in the womb. Um but
2:59apparently, she's this amazing person
3:01that everyone just said was the most
3:03beautiful woman. Um don't know how she
3:05ended up with my grandfather. But um
3:08yeah, so it was pretty yeah, that
3:11they've called it Gloriavale, and then
3:13they have this other part over there
3:14that's called Glenthorpe, which is named
3:17after him. It's like on the other side
3:18of the river. And they're like wheat
3:20compound, so it's a fun fun cult fact
3:23for you.
3:24Yeah. Oh my gosh, 16 children. I cannot
3:28imagine. That is insanity to me. So, if
3:32you aren't familiar, guys, this group is
3:35very isolated. It's communal living.
3:37They all wear uniforms. Definitely go
3:39check out our previous video with Lilia,
3:42and we also put up a short on Instagram
3:44that has footage that you can see
3:45directly into the live actually into
3:48your teenage life because they came and
3:50filmed you when you were 16, 17?
3:53Yeah, that's it's like crazy to me
3:54because I actually have so much footage
3:57of my life inside Gloriavale. And
3:59looking back at that is just like so
4:02jarring to me because I'm like, who is
4:03that person? Um but yeah, there's like
4:06me with the headscarf, the full-length
4:08blue dress with like a frilly bodice,
4:11and um long like covered to my wrists,
4:14my neck, my ankles. So, you know, it's
4:17all there. Like there's a lot of
4:18documentaries out there people can
4:20totally get into if they want to
4:22research what Gloriavale's like. Yeah,
4:25definitely. So, let's talk about that
4:27transition out mentally because we
4:30talked about in your first episode how
4:31you escaped with your family, which is
4:33amazing that all of you were able to go
4:35together and be together and do that
4:38together, but we didn't talk about the
4:40mental deconstruction of the religion
4:42itself. So, however you want to start
4:44that, and then in a few minutes we'll
4:45take some questions.
4:46Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh it was a long
4:50painful journey, and it was really hard
4:52because when you grow up in a Christian
4:53family, you feel like you're betraying
4:56your family if you want to leave the
4:58faith. I didn't I don't think there was
5:01this particular moment where I felt, oh,
5:03I'm going to I'm deconstructing or I'm
5:06going to leave. It was more a series of
5:08events that I started like questioning
5:10and like critically thinking about
5:12things. Like I didn't like the fact that
5:14Christian churches, and I mean Christian
5:16churches outside of Gloriavale, so I
5:17left Gloriavale, joined a couple of
5:19churches, you know, tried what was out
5:22here in the world. And I say the world
5:24because we referred to it as the world,
5:26the outside world when we were in there.
5:29But um I yeah, I tried some churches. I
5:31didn't like how they were treating like
5:33the the homophobia. Didn't like I didn't
5:36feel like that was right. Um I didn't
5:39like the no sex before marriage, the
5:40whole purity culture thing. Like even
5:42though I was raised that way, just felt
5:44really ick to me. Like, why is it anyone
5:47else's business what you choose to do
5:48with your body? Um I didn't like the
5:51fact that the religion Christianity
5:53itself was based on like a literal
5:55patriarchy. Like God is a male, and then
5:58he has the son who's also male who comes
6:00and saves the world. And then even the
6:02devil's a male. Like Lucifer's a male,
6:04too, in all of the narrative. So, I was
6:06just like,
6:07there's a theme here, and it feels like
6:10it's meant to control women, which was
6:12very much my experience growing up in
6:15Gloriavale. So,
6:16after that, there were a few like
6:19things like I wanted to try sex. I
6:21wanted to drink alcohol. I was I was a
6:23young person. I was 18. I wanted to try
6:25the world for myself, and I guess it
6:28kind of naturally I was like, I'm think
6:30I'm going to stop going to church, and
6:32it kind of I just drifted out of that
6:34friend group, really.
6:36So, what did that do to your mentality
6:38because you were growing up in this
6:41framework that was extremely rigid.
6:43Everything was controlled down to like
6:45we said what you wore and what you ate,
6:47and you didn't even really use money
6:49because it was all just communal. So,
6:51when you're shifting out of this
6:53mentality of physically being free, but
6:57you still have those thoughts of, am I
7:00going to go to hell because I left, and
7:01were we the chosen people? I know that
7:03lingers with a lot of cult members who
7:06leave, and they're like, oh my gosh,
7:07what if I was wrong?
7:09Yeah. I'm a really decisive person. Like
7:14if I have decided something, then I'm
7:16going to stick to my guns and go that
7:18way. Um I'm not saying that I like
7:20didn't struggle with the guilt, but like
7:23if I could logically see something and
7:26look at something, critically analyze
7:28it, and then understand for myself why
7:29I've come to this decision, then I'll
7:32always back myself on that decision. So,
7:36I I feel like when I sort of made the
7:38decision um leaving Christianity, I
7:40didn't know how to identify. That was
7:43kind of my biggest issue is I I didn't
7:46feel like it was sin because I'd
7:48slowly over time done like done these
7:52things which were considered sinful.
7:54Like wearing pants, like having my own
7:56money, like stopping wearing the
7:58headscarf. So, each of those things I
8:01grappled with quite individually, but
8:04then the actual like leaving of the
8:06church, once I decided, I kind of
8:08promised myself, well, I'm not going to
8:10let myself live in guilt or let those
8:13kind of ideologies control me anymore.
8:16And it more felt like incredibly
8:18empowering to me to be able to have
8:20choice and autonomy. And
8:24I mean, I just couldn't be happier being
8:26free of religion. And I say free of
8:28religion, it's tricky because I I
8:30wouldn't say we're like ever totally
8:32free of our history, but you know, I I
8:36just feel like I I know there's a lot of
8:39people that struggle with the guilt and
8:40the sin and like, is hell real, and all
8:43of that. I just have kind of
8:47followed what I do believe, and allowed
8:49myself to believe that, and given myself
8:51permission to do that. I think I think
8:53that helped like
8:55with with struggling with the
8:57transition, I suppose.
8:59Yeah. That makes total sense. I feel
9:02like I was the same way in at least in
9:04some terms. Like feeling, oh my gosh,
9:07I'm free, and that always felt wrong,
9:09and I can finally do something I want.
9:11There were a few times though that it
9:13got to me where something bad would
9:16happen almost immediately after leaving
9:18Mormonism, and I was like, oh no, is
9:20that is it because I left the true
9:23church, and I'm not protected anymore by
9:25the spirit. But just little things that
9:27over time I was like, oh wait, oh no,
9:29it's okay, it's fine. It's just, you
9:31know, things happen. But you're you're
9:33programmed to believe that anything
9:34negative that happens to you is directly
9:37because of your actions, and you're
9:38being punished in some way. Yeah. I
9:41guess I'm like I totally get what you
9:43mean. I'm always like challenging my
9:45default programming. So like if I have a
9:48reaction to a certain event, I'm
9:50stopping, and I'm thinking, well, is
9:52this me? Is this actually what I
9:54believe? Or is this that old
9:56conditioning? And is this voice that's
9:59telling me something about, you know,
10:01you shouldn't be doing this thing? Where
10:03is that voice coming from? And
10:04ultimately, who does it serve? Like, you
10:07know, a lot of the voices like, uh,
10:09don't wear pants, you know, women should
10:11submit to men, women, uh, you know,
10:13should earn less than men. All of these
10:15like ideas, I'm like, well, they don't
10:18serve me. And the only people that they
10:20actually benefit, uh, men in power. So,
10:25that to me, like, it's so important to
10:27me to dismantle that that it kind of
10:29overrides any guilt I would feel or any
10:32like shame about it, I suppose. Yeah,
10:36when you can think about it logically
10:37and I think so.
10:39>> framework. Yeah. Yeah, cuz if I if I I
10:42feel like I'm like quite scientific in
10:44the way that I look at things and, um,
10:47when you've grown up in a religion where
10:49everything was faith,
10:51blind faith, just blind obedience, do as
10:54you're told, be a template for the
10:57community and just serve in the way
10:58they've designed you to be, then to
11:01actually have autonomy and choice is
11:04like so empowering and so refreshing. I
11:06actually probably didn't quite realize
11:08how much so. Now as I'm saying it to
11:10you, I'm like, "Whoa, this is like the
11:12most important thing in the world to
11:13me." So,
11:15yeah, hell no, I'm not going to let
11:16some, like, guilt or anything from the
11:18past stop me from living life on my
11:20terms, the way I want to.
11:22Yeah, and that's the hardest part is
11:25allowing yourself to fully separate from
11:28the thing that you left because it's
11:30still going to be the conditioning in
11:31your head, the way that you see the
11:33world, the way that you react to things,
11:35even the choices that you make are so
11:37heavily conditioned that you have to
11:38actively
11:39>> Yeah. pull that apart. Let's take a few
11:41questions and then we'll dive back into
11:43this. Yeah, yeah.
11:45You did a great job of explaining
11:47Gloriavale. I had never heard of it, but
11:49feel you were able to give a great
11:50overview to anyone. So, anyone can start
11:53to understand what it was like. Yeah, I
11:56agree, Jessie.
11:58L- Lilia, can you tell us what happened
12:00to the cult members on the documentary
12:02since filming? I hear that some are out.
12:06Are you able to specify documentary?
12:08Yeah, yeah, it depend what documentary
12:10you're referring to because there's been
12:12a lot. Uh, Gloriavale is still active
12:15and is still operating. Um,
12:18so, a lot of my family members, a lot of
12:20people who were in those documentaries
12:22are still inside. But, what happened
12:24when my family left, my father was in a
12:27position of authority within the male
12:29leadership and my mother was in a
12:31position of authority within
12:34the women. So, it was really permission
12:37giving for a lot of other families to
12:38start questioning the things that they
12:40weren't happy with. Also considering
12:42that my mother was, you know, the
12:44daughter of the church founder and she
12:47was basically going against him. And it
12:50sort of gave people permission to say,
12:53"Well, if they can leave and still be
12:56Christian, then I can too and my family
12:59can too." And what began to happen was
13:01this massive exodus of families leaving
13:03Gloriavale, which ultimately led to the
13:06founding of the Gloriavale Leavers
13:07Trust, which is a trust outside of
13:09Gloriavale that's set up by,
13:11um, a bunch of leavers, but also some
13:13just really amazing people who are
13:15wanting to change why this is even in
13:18New Zealand, a cult like this, and
13:20support the families who are trying to
13:21integrate. So, now they they when a
13:24family leaves, they have a lot of
13:26support to get into housing, get
13:28clothing, get their kids into schooling,
13:30get into employment, and just integrate
13:32into the world. So,
13:34that's kind of, yeah, what's happened,
13:36um, since we left. And I gosh, I think
13:38it was 2009 that we left. So, it's been
13:41a wee while, but there's
13:44a lot of I'm not going to throw a number
13:46out there cuz I'm not sure, but there's
13:47been a lot of families, whole families
13:49leaving. Before that, it was just uh
13:52like individuals leaving. Mhm.
13:56I'm sure that's really nice to see. And
13:58obviously, it's hard. Anytime someone
14:00leaves a cult, you want to celebrate,
14:02but then also be there because you know
14:04the hell they're about to go through.
14:05It's probably the hardest part of your
14:07life leaving a cult and trying to find
14:10your footing, but it is exciting to know
14:12that whole families feel comfortable or
14:15safe enough at least to be able to
14:18escape together.
14:20Yeah, because I think that's the hardest
14:22thing is like
14:24this cult tears families apart. And it's
14:27been what they've been known for. And
14:29for my parents to be one of the first
14:31ones that said, "We're not going to let
14:33our family be torn apart anymore."
14:36Because we left at the when my younger
14:39brother, he was 15, and he was like,
14:42"I'm leaving as well." And my parents,
14:43like, this would be at their third child
14:46who was leaving. And that's what kind of
14:48started the whole snowball effect with
14:51us going, "Well, we don't want to be
14:53separated again." My parents being
14:55saying, "Well, we aren't willing to give
14:58up our children again. Like, God wants
15:00us to look after our children." was the
15:02belief that the logic that they were
15:04able to grasp onto.
15:06So, yeah, that kind of like, it's so
15:09nice to see families that actually can
15:11leave together, but it's really hard
15:13because some families are leaving, but
15:15then those ones that were married into
15:18arranged marriages back in Gloriavale,
15:20like, they can't leave because they are
15:22married into other families. So, it's
15:25it's so hard. They like there are
15:27families still separated today.
15:31Right. Do you have contact with anyone
15:33on the inside currently?
15:36Yeah, like we can talk to some people.
15:39It depends on the level of access they
15:42have to be able to contact people on the
15:44outside. Mhm. Gloriavale has had to kind
15:47of they've had to conform and allow more
15:49freedom to their members because of the
15:52heavy scrutiny they've come under from
15:54the court cases that have been going on.
15:56And, um, and they Yeah, so there's a lot
15:59of people have come forward and said,
16:00"This happened to me." and started to
16:02tell their stories. And that's held
16:04people accountable. It's held church
16:06leaders accountable who were doing
16:07disgusting things and, like, they've
16:10been convicted of those things. Yeah.
16:13And then also,
16:15there's, uh, been an employment court
16:16case, which basically is the Gloriavale
16:20leavers saying, "We deserve to have
16:22employment status because
16:25it technically they are classified as
16:27volunteers for Gloriavale, but they are
16:30unpaid for their labor. So, the a one
16:34huge huge step is in that's, you know,
16:36made New Zealand history is the fact
16:38that they have been granted, so I think
16:41there was three boys that did a court
16:43case in the employment court, and then
16:45six women, and they were all granted
16:48employ employee status. So, the court
16:52found that they were actually employees
16:56living under the guise of being
16:57volunteers. And this starts a process
17:00of, "Well, what are the reparations? And
17:02how can this be?" It's just one step in
17:05the right direction
17:07for for the leavers and for like justice
17:09to be carried out.
17:11So, what does that mean practically?
17:12Does it mean that they can just claim
17:14job history? Does it mean Does it mean
17:16that Gloriavale has to pay taxes with
17:18their employees?
17:20Yeah, so it's kind of a very slow slow
17:23process as it as in many things in law.
17:26But, basically, it means that one, they
17:30have established their right as an
17:32employee, which means now that that that
17:34So, that court case is basically done.
17:37The decision has been made. Now that
17:39they've established that right, then
17:41they have to lodge another case in order
17:44to say, "Well, these are this is what we
17:46want." And it basically sets a precedent
17:48for everyone living inside of Gloriavale
17:51and everyone who's ever left Gloriavale
17:53to, um, follow the same path. So, on a
17:56practical basis, we don't really know
17:58what that looks like. Ultimately, we'd
18:00like it to look like, well, they get
18:03they receive money to compensate for the
18:05harm and for the fact that they worked
18:07without pay. But, we still have to keep
18:09pursuing that and figure out what that
18:11all looks like because Gloriavale keeps
18:13appealing all of these decisions as
18:15well.
18:17Mhm. Of course, they are because they
18:19don't want to have to pay anybody. Of
18:21course. They want free labor.
18:23>> [laughter]
18:23>> I know, totally. That's why they have so
18:25many children as well because it's like
18:28a lot of free labor. So, they don't
18:30practice birth control. It's like a
18:31breeding program for labor, right? Yeah.
18:34If you think about like Handmaid's Tale,
18:36like, I I'm like I grew up in the real
18:38Handmaid's Tale. Like, they literally
18:41designed the costumes in Handmaid's Tale
18:43based on and inspired by Gloriavale
18:45outfits. No, they didn't. For real?
18:48>> They Yeah, the costume designer studied
18:50Gloriavale cult in New Zealand to design
18:54like it's crazy to me. I'm like, "That's
18:55my life." Like, this is literally my
18:58life, but here it is. We're watching it
19:00and I'm like,
19:01I cannot watch it. So triggering. I
19:03started watching it and I was like,
19:05"No, I can't do this." Like, it's just
19:08way too much. It's just so sickening to
19:10me, too. You know, I grew up in a world
19:12where women just were just walking
19:14around with like heavy bellies all of
19:16the time. They like never got a break.
19:18They were either pregnant or getting
19:19ready to get pregnant. Like, it was just
19:22Like my mom was always always pregnant.
19:24She's got 10 kids. I mean,
19:26it's like 10 years of your life being
19:29pregnant. Like,
19:31it takes a toll on your body. Like, the
19:34women in Gloriavale, like, they age
19:36incredibly quickly. And I believe that's
19:38a huge reason why. Their bodies are like
19:40machines. Mhm. Well, they're being
19:43forced to be like machines when they
19:44shouldn't be. Yeah. Yeah, and they can't
19:47even access birth control like if they
19:49shouldn't be having babies. Like, there
19:51are women in Gloriavale who shouldn't
19:53have been having babies and I know like
19:54some of my friends left because they
19:57would literally die if they had another
19:58baby, but they were not allowed to
20:00access to birth control.
20:02So and and I
20:03it's insane, right? But it's it's not
20:05that it's common. Now it's happening in
20:06the states as well. Like women are not
20:08able to access birth control. That the
20:10minute it is crazy. They having their
20:12rights stripped from them. And we're
20:14talking about a cult over in Gloria
20:15Vale, which is like a hideous cult, but
20:18it's happening in like the world as
20:20well. Yeah. Yeah, it's terrifying being
20:23a woman right now, which is unfortunate
20:25because it it should be getting better,
20:27not worse. Okay, Jonathan says we have
20:29quite a few questions. So let's let's go
20:31through those. Do you have any idea how
20:34many people Oh, it's perfect. I was just
20:35I was about to ask that before before
20:38you did. So that's great.
20:41So what's the um question?
20:42>> have any idea how many people are still
20:44there? So I was wondering I was going to
20:46ask you
20:47approximately if you had to guess before
20:50you left, how many were there and how
20:52many think are there now?
20:53It was about 500 and I actually still
20:56think it's the same amount because even
20:59with all the family leaving, all the big
21:01like families that have left, they're
21:04still having children. So I've got a
21:06feeling it's still about 500 to 550
21:10still living there.
21:12Yeah, that's quite a few. Yeah, so when
21:15people say oh like let's
21:17Go ahead.
21:18>> Yeah, I was just going to say when
21:19people say oh let's take a Gloria Vale
21:20part, it should be burned to the ground
21:22kind of thing cuz those are sentiments
21:23people like express when you have
21:26conversations like this. It's was 550
21:29people who need a home and a life. Like
21:32there's children and families. It's not
21:34simple at all.
21:35>> Yeah, I mean even just looking at the
21:37FLDS, I don't know if you've looked into
21:39that with Warren Jeffs, the Mormon
21:41polygamist sect. He's now in jail now in
21:44jail, but they did a raid and took I
21:47think it was 440 children out of the
21:50compound and some people are like yay
21:53and then other people are like but wait
21:55that also doesn't make sense cuz now
21:56these kids are terrified and they think
21:58that the evil one is holding them
22:01hostage and it it just makes them double
22:04down on their faith because the prophet
22:05already told them that they would be
22:06persecuted and it's just like it's such
22:10a hard thing. How do we
22:11How do we actually fix this?
22:14Yeah, totally. Well, speaking of the New
22:17Zealand government just removed New
22:19Zealand's right to run a school. So
22:22that was literally a couple of weeks
22:24ago. So now they potentially have to
22:27send their children to outside schools
22:30and I'm like those kids are going to get
22:32so bullied. Like especially if they we
22:35are wearing those clothes those clothes,
22:36but you know, it's also a necessary step
22:39that needs to happen in order to
22:41create some sort of you know,
22:44connection between this isolated
22:46community and the outside world because
22:48that's what starts to affect change.
22:51And then the children will be influenced
22:53and they need to be influenced
22:54differently than
22:56you know, we're just inside Gloria Vale
22:58as well cuz they're in a a bubble of
22:59indoctrination. So I just don't know how
23:03that's going I worry. I worry for the
23:04kids, but you know, ultimately it's a
23:06good step forward. Maybe the Gloria Vale
23:09families might say oh we'll home school,
23:12but like
23:13for them they already home school. Like
23:15their their real school was a home
23:17school basically. You walk across the
23:19block. Yeah, that's so hard cuz my first
23:22thought was that's amazing. They're
23:24going to be exposed to the outside
23:25world, but I hadn't even considered if
23:26they're going in with these uniforms,
23:28they are going to be treated
23:29differently.
23:31Yeah, they will be. But I mean when we
23:34left, we got treated differently too. So
23:36it was it's it's hard. Like even if you
23:39have a history of Gloria Vale and you
23:41don't look like that, you go into
23:42schools, you do get bullied for it.
23:44People laugh at you. They say you came
23:46from a funny farm. They like you know,
23:48kids are really cruel and
23:51you know, when you're a kid, you care
23:52about that kind of thing. So it's really
23:55hard for children to integrate.
23:57And they don't have schools or do they
24:00that have mandatory uniforms already cuz
24:02that'd be the perfect way to blend in
24:05if they did.
24:05>> Um um in New Zealand? Yeah.
24:09Yeah, they do they some schools do I
24:11think. So that that might work if they
24:14had to wear a different uniform, then
24:15they wouldn't feel so different and they
24:18would feel like they could belong to
24:20this place. It's amazing how much the
24:22clothes we wear like signify our sense
24:24of belonging. Um I think that's a really
24:27amazing tactic that Gloria Vale has
24:29used, you know, putting kids in uniforms
24:31from like the babies pretty much wear
24:33uniforms. So
24:35you know, it's like um and it makes you
24:37feel like you belong and you're the
24:38same. So you're right. That's probably a
24:40really great
24:41um strategy.
24:43I might talk to the levers about it.
24:45Yeah, the levers trust and see what they
24:46think.
24:47Okay, more questions. I'm also New
24:50Zealand based recently was part of the
24:51discussion where people believed Gloria
24:53Vale will be a shadow of its former self
24:55soon as teenagers are now outnumbering
24:58leadership and finding their way out.
25:01Right.
25:03>> Um
25:04I mean I
25:06I think naturally Gloria Vale will come
25:08to an end as well.
25:10Um I think it would be better to happen
25:12slowly rather than really like extremes.
25:15Like every time we have a little win
25:18like a step in the right direction, then
25:20it feels like that change is happening.
25:24Um
25:26I don't know about the teenagers
25:28outnumbering leadership cuz the
25:29leadership is still in control anyway
25:32and the teenagers are still
25:33indoctrinated from birth anyway. So the
25:36same manipulation and control and
25:39coercion tactics are still being
25:41deployed within Gloria Vale. So
25:45I don't think change is going to come
25:47until the leadership completely changes
25:50and till there's contact with the
25:51outside world and exposure to non-toxic
25:55belief systems.
25:57Yeah, or the teenagers being exposed to
25:59the outside school system and then
26:01potential kicking up and standing up for
26:04themselves as they're a little older,
26:05but
26:06Thank you for making the parallel
26:08between Gloria Vale and Handmaid. Yes,
26:12it's interesting. I had no idea about
26:14the Handmaid costumes being inspired by
26:15Gloria Vale, but I can totally see it.
26:17You guys didn't have capes, did you or
26:19did you have those big clothes?
26:22>> have capes. We just had the big full
26:24[clears throat] length dresses and then
26:25we had um two types of head scarves. So
26:28one was a triangular triangular scarf
26:30which we could um just tie around our
26:33head or the other one was like a hat.
26:36More like I think what the Amish or
26:38Hadarite wear, like a hat that you would
26:40wear
26:40on the back. Yeah, like a cap that your
26:42hair all goes in and then it's got a
26:44it's like a bonnet and then it's got a
26:46piece that goes across here. Yeah.
26:49Gosh, I actually have a Gloria Vale
26:50dress. I should have brought it out for
26:51the live. Oh my gosh.
26:53>> [laughter]
26:55>> I do cuz I had it for a like a couple of
26:58TV shows and then I was like I'll just
27:00keep this and my mom was helping me move
27:03into a new house and she seen it and
27:04started screaming and she was like why
27:06have you got this? And I was like I
27:08know, I know. Just don't look at it.
27:10[laughter]
27:13Yeah, cuz it's like
27:14when you see it, you're like oh how
27:16could I ever wear that? Yeah, don't you
27:19think most people realize things that
27:21were wrong or they were sincere enough
27:23that they couldn't see it?
27:25Do you think most people realize Sorry,
27:27I feel like my eyes are not working
27:28today.
27:29Do you think most people realize things
27:31are wrong?
27:32Yeah, so let's just take one example.
27:35When you're a child and you're raised to
27:37believe that your parent hitting you
27:39equals love, how would you then
27:41interpret that as being wrong? Because
27:43you've been raised to believe that
27:44that's love. So similarly for every
27:48single belief system, it's what you've
27:50been indoctrinated and taught
27:53about and you're taught so taught in
27:56like conjunction with this not to listen
27:59to your own inner thoughts because they
28:02are rebellion against God. It's the
28:04devil talking to you. So you think if
28:06you have anything that says I don't
28:09think this is right, that's actually the
28:12devil talking to you. So you have to
28:14block that out and that's how they
28:16control
28:17like or get you to self-manage your own
28:19mind. So I think people do know things
28:22are wrong, but they actually think that
28:24they're wrong for thinking it's wrong
28:26and that's the like complete mind stuff
28:29up that religion brings to you or heavy
28:32heavy control religions like this.
28:35Is that
28:36you do think it's wrong, but you don't
28:37know you have no self-trust in yourself
28:41to actually take any sort of action on
28:43that.
28:44Yeah.
28:45>> And saying that you know, there we a lot
28:47of us do eventually go this is wrong and
28:49I'm not doing this anymore. Yeah,
28:51usually had a breaking point.
28:53>> right? Like a breaking point. Yeah. Or
28:55there's a catalyst or something that
28:56happens that's so bad that we're like
29:00nah, this can't be right.
29:03Yeah, exactly. I feel like the best way
29:05that I can explain it just from a group
29:07that's far less controlling than what
29:09you were in, but that feeling that gut
29:12feeling of it feels off, but like you're
29:16saying, you're trained to ignore it and
29:18so you're trained also think that you
29:21are the problem. So okay, this feels
29:23wrong. That must mean that I'm not being
29:26spiritual enough or I need to do more
29:28and I need to pray more and I need to
29:30pray this feeling away. In Mormonism,
29:32they literally tell people doubt your
29:34doubts. So you can't even allow yourself
29:37to have any sort of questions because
29:40you're not supposed to trust it. They
29:42take away your intuition like you said,
29:44but that gut feeling is there, which is
29:46why we always tell people when you
29:47leave, it's so important to build that
29:49relationship back up with your intuition
29:51and to start to integrate back into your
29:54body that you believed was wrong and
29:56sinful for so long cuz your body will
29:58give you signs and clues if something is
30:00off.
30:01>> Totally. Yeah, totally. That's so so so
30:04true. And I think somatic healing's been
30:06a big one for me, too. You know, I've
30:07really done a lot of yoga because it
30:10allowed me to be in my body, to love my
30:12body. When you've spent pretty much your
30:13whole entire life dissociating from all
30:16feelings so that you could survive in
30:18the world that you were thrown into,
30:21like actually feeling your feelings
30:24after that is incredibly overwhelming
30:26and it was for me. So, that was one part
30:28which I really found hard was to go, "Oh
30:32my god, I'm having an emotion and I
30:33don't know what to do with it." Because
30:35no one in my entire life has ever
30:38validated any of my emotions or taught
30:40me what any of them mean or given me any
30:42language to wrap around them. And so, I
30:45was I've had to, you know, as an adult
30:47re-parent myself to learn to name and
30:50like be with my emotions. And that's
30:52taken years and years of therapy and
30:55healing and really like I'm like, "Why
30:58should I even have to be doing this? I
31:00shouldn't really." Like, you know, we
31:02These are just normal things that we
31:03should be given to our parents who
31:06nurture us as children, but in those
31:08environments completely non-existent.
31:11Yeah, cuz not only is the framework for
31:13that missing, it's replaced with
31:15something sinister. So, it's not even
31:18just the lack of knowledge or tools,
31:21it's actively working against you to not
31:24feel these emotions. And so, it's so
31:26hard to even, just like you said, allow
31:28yourself to feel something so common and
31:30so normal like anger or even something
31:34on the opposite side of the spectrum
31:35like pride. Like you were saying, you
31:37weren't even allowed to be proud of
31:38something that you did in the group
31:40because that's vanity. And I remember
31:42feeling the same way.
31:44Anytime I did something good, it's like,
31:45"Oh, but you know, it's probably not
31:47that good." Cuz you're not even supposed
31:48to brag about yourself or be like,
31:50"Yeah, I did a great job."
31:52Yeah. So, I've It's like every single
31:55thing that you learn as an adult after
31:58leaving, you have to relearn unlearn
32:01everything that you were taught and then
32:02relearn everything on your terms in a
32:05way that's healthy for you. And that is
32:07the work and it's like That's why I say
32:10in anyone who's been through
32:11deconstruction and experienced it, like
32:14they know what it takes cuz it is work.
32:16It is waking up every single day and
32:18challenging the beliefs that you have
32:20and like not letting yourself fall into
32:22a spiral, not letting yourself
32:24dissociate, like just always being with
32:26yourself. And that's why I'm like
32:29I always felt that I love myself in the
32:30same way I would love a child, the same
32:32way as I loved my sisters growing up,
32:34you know? Like I love myself in that way
32:37as an adult because I need it to be able
32:39to survive post-religious abuse. Mhm.
32:43Definitely. Okay, so more questions. Do
32:46you ever catch yourself doing something
32:47that you used to do while in or have you
32:50unlearned most of it?
32:54Do you know what? Like interestingly
32:55enough, I'm a feminist, right? But um
32:58and this is such a great question. But
33:01sometimes I find myself expecting my
33:03partner to be a certain way. So, he's a
33:04male and sometimes there's things which
33:08I'm like
33:09I I expect him to do because he's a
33:12male.
33:13And then I have to catch myself and go,
33:15"Wait, wait, wait. That's sexism." And
33:18that's me projecting like the way I was
33:21raised and how a man should be in the
33:23world onto my partner. So, I really have
33:26to catch myself in like little ways like
33:27that. It's like that old conditioning
33:30that comes in and I'm like, "Hold on.
33:33This is not what I believe right now.
33:36This is not how I But it's a more It's
33:38like a default and I have to continually
33:40keep rewiring that in myself to go, "No,
33:43>> [laughter]
33:43>> you know, this isn't We're not doing
33:45this anymore." Like and I have to show
33:46up for myself and go, "This This we're
33:48not doing this anymore.
33:50Um I don't believe this anymore." And
33:52just really drop into what do I believe,
33:56who am I today? Because sometimes you
33:58can kind of forget and then it's almost
34:01like you revert into a past version of
34:04yourself. Um especially when you're like
34:06tired and or you're not like making sure
34:10that you're like, you know, in your
34:12today identity. I find that I sometimes
34:15struggle and will like revert into like
34:17that child who's scared or that child
34:20who has been hurt or who's afraid. And I
34:23really have to take time in those
34:25moments to pull myself back into the
34:27moment and go, "Well, we don't
34:28dissociate anymore. We're here now. This
34:31is who you are. You're an adult. You're
34:33safe in this space and I've got you, you
34:37know?" And like letting my inner child
34:38really know that I've got her. Like it's
34:41all good. She's safe now. That is such a
34:44big one, especially for me, the whole
34:46being submissive thing or just kind of
34:49retreating anytime there's conflict. And
34:52still, I have to actively be like, "Why
34:55are you retreating? You have to stand up
34:57for yourself. You have to give yourself
34:58a voice. You have to be loud." Because
35:01anytime things get really hard or
35:03chaotic or it feels like there's a lot
35:04of energy, whether it's negative or
35:06someone's arguing or something coming at
35:09me, my instinct is to like,
35:11"I need to retreat. I need to be small.
35:13I need to
35:16I Yeah, I'm not the one in charge here."
35:17And then I have to be like, "No, I am in
35:19charge. I am in charge of the situation
35:21and I need to assert myself and I need
35:23to do what I would want me Like cuz of
35:26course, 20 minutes later, you're like,
35:27"Why didn't I do that?"
35:30You know that you're not that person
35:31anymore, but in those scary moments when
35:33our nervous system freezes, like you're
35:35saying, we revert back to what we were
35:38taught and what we were told to be. And
35:41so, you have to actively step out of
35:43that and it's so hard, but it is
35:45rewarding when you can eventually do
35:47that. Yeah, do you know what? I'm always
35:49like trying to surround myself with
35:52women who are doing that and women who
35:54are like speaking up and speaking out.
35:56And I find that that like
35:58is so permission-giving to me because
36:00I'm like, "Whoa, if she can do it, I can
36:03do it." Because there's no difference
36:04between the two of us, you know? So,
36:06like just, you know, my coach,
36:09my clients, like anyone around me, I try
36:12to take like because a lot of these
36:14women didn't grow up with the
36:15appreciation that I had. And so, I've
36:19really looked and gone, "Whoa, she
36:20speaks up in that scenario. Okay, well,
36:22I can, too. Oh, she's not afraid of
36:25conflict because she knows that conflict
36:27conflict doesn't end in harm. Okay,
36:29well, great. I can kind of And that's
36:31really like helped me. It's kind of
36:33looking at the role models and examples
36:35around me and going, "Okay, I can model
36:37that for myself and in my own life." Cuz
36:40I haven't had good role models like that
36:41growing up.
36:43Definitely didn't. You know, the role
36:44models of women in my life were
36:46submissive, were mean, quiet, didn't
36:49speak out against the things that were
36:51happening, made to breed, made to cover
36:54up their bodies and their skin, like,
36:56you know? So, I'm now looking for
36:58different role models, I suppose. Yeah,
37:01absolutely agree. I love getting on
37:03those algorithms with the strong,
37:04independent, outspoken women. Like, yes.
37:07>> [laughter]
37:07>> Double tap, comment, like everything so
37:09that I can keep getting more of this.
37:12>> [laughter]
37:12>> Okay, let's jump into more questions
37:14here. What is something that you
37:16remember from your childhood years that
37:18makes you smile to look back on?
37:20Yeah, it would be the living in such
37:24close contact with like cousins and
37:27other like extended family. So, I we cuz
37:31we grew up with one family in a room. I
37:34lived in a room next to my cousins
37:37Lonnie and Mark's family.
37:39And they were like our besties. Like we
37:43did everything together. And it's so
37:45nice to be able to just like walk 3 m
37:49and you're in your cousin's room and
37:50suddenly you're hanging out. Like that's
37:53the really beautiful part of living in
37:55community that I really miss is
37:58always having family in your space all
38:01of the time. Like I loved that growing
38:04up. I never was lonely. There was always
38:06someone around to like hang out with and
38:08just talk, play cards with or do
38:10something just, you know, just talk
38:12about anything. I miss that part. Yeah.
38:16And I miss them. You know, a lot of them
38:17are still in there.
38:19Yeah.
38:20Yeah, that's so hard. And that's That's
38:23the thing that draws people to these
38:24communities to begin with because I
38:26asked you in your interview and you gave
38:27a great answer and people can go hear
38:29the extended version, but just about how
38:32if it was your grandfather who started
38:34it, that was not that long ago. And how
38:35did he convince people that this was the
38:37way? And it's because on paper it sounds
38:39really good where we all share, we are
38:42all work, we are all equal, we all have
38:45a common goal and common values. We're
38:48going to help each other, but then it
38:50always gets culty every single time.
38:53So, that's the unfortunate part.
38:56Yeah, people um you know, they don't go,
38:59"Oh, I'm joining a cult." No one thinks
39:01they're joining a cult. They just think,
39:04"I want a better way of life for my
39:05family."
39:07So, yeah.
39:09Yeah, agree. Any other questions
39:12before we continue on?
39:16Do you still live in the South Island or
39:19you and your family living close to each
39:20other?
39:22Yeah, so um we're all in the South
39:24Island in Otautahi, Christchurch, New
39:26Zealand.
39:27Um
39:28It's on the east coast, so it's actually
39:30not that far from Gloriavale. Like we're
39:32about 3 hours drive from Gloriavale.
39:35Um
39:36We all kind of just settled here. It was
39:38where my It's It was where my parents
39:41were born. So, um now everyone's kind of
39:44spread out all around Christchurch with
39:46their own families. Um
39:48we're really big on family. We're all
39:50quite close. So, I think that's why none
39:52of us have left, but it's always a you
39:54know, a a good topic like well, who's
39:55going to be the first to live overseas
39:58Yeah.
39:58>> of us cuz someone's going to eventually
40:00surely. We're not all
40:02>> [laughter]
40:04>> Um but yeah, we'll see. We're still in
40:06the South Island. I love New Zealand.
40:08It's pretty beautiful. Yeah, I've never
40:10been. I've heard only amazing things
40:14about the scenery and the people and
40:17it's fairly small, right? If you were to
40:19drive from one side of the island to the
40:20other, how long do you think it would
40:21take? Or can you even do that?
40:23No, you 100% can. Like it's probably
40:26what? 4 hours or something? Like
40:28New Zealand's like tiny. I think it's
40:31what? God, I'm trying to remember. It's
40:32about 250,000 square kilometers?
40:35Something like that. I think Japan's
40:37only 100 Japan is 100,000 kilometers
40:40more, roughly. These are very rough
40:42figures.
40:43But um yeah, you can drive. So, like
40:46we're going to go on a trip in February,
40:48but like we will drive most of the North
40:51Island cuz you can kind of drive the top
40:54island
40:55probably in about 10 to 11 hours from
40:57top to bottom. Like it's not a big place
41:00at all, but it's also makes it really
41:03nice way to see a lot of like New
41:05Zealand cuz you see the coast and you
41:07see the cities and then you see like the
41:10central areas. So, it yeah, it's a
41:12lovely place. You have to come visit. I
41:14have to. I have to when it's not too
41:17crazy to put kids on a plane for that
41:19long. We will go over there. Because
41:22yeah, it's definitely on my list. Yeah,
41:24but we are there is a cult on the coast
41:26though. Right. I was going to say,
41:30do you ever run into anybody because
41:33it's generally small? Do you ever run
41:35into people in the uniform in real life
41:37like, oh, do we talk to each other?
41:39>> a few walk around town. Like generally,
41:42I wouldn't approach them because I guess
41:44they consider me to be very evil because
41:46I've been very spoken outspoken about
41:48that I do not disagree that I do not
41:50agree with the practices of Gloriavale.
41:53Um
41:54yeah, so there are a few people that can
41:57kind of have contact with us out here if
41:59they come over for doctor's appointments
42:01and things like that. Uh but it's really
42:03rare.
42:06Okay. So, if you saw someone, you
42:08probably wouldn't talk to them and they
42:10wouldn't talk to you.
42:12Yeah, it depends who. It depends who it
42:14is. If it was someone I was really,
42:15really close with in there, then I would
42:17definitely try to talk to them.
42:20Um but if it was like a lot of the time,
42:22I'm I'm like not wanting to get into
42:24those types of discussions cuz it can be
42:26pretty
42:27um
42:28well, you're going to hell and you're
42:31living with Satan or you know, just all
42:34that kind of Christian propaganda. Um
42:38so, yeah, I I generally would try to
42:41avoid the conversations, but I know like
42:44my mom and dad are really they really do
42:48try to connect with people if if they
42:50like run into them or if they're
42:52visiting like Christchurch or anything
42:55because I think the more contact you do
42:57keep, it allows people like an avenue or
43:00somewhere they feel they can go if they
43:01do want to leave. Um so, it is really
43:04important. I So, I have a few people in
43:06Gloriavale that I stay in contact with.
43:09And then there's like and I think we
43:11kind of all ex-leavers sort of do that.
43:13We just make sure that they know that
43:15our families know that there's a person
43:18they can contact if it all goes
43:21wrong. Mhm. Yeah, that's great. Really
43:24important. Any other questions before we
43:27move on? Many people here in New Zealand
43:29want to go Oh my gosh, I think I need
43:31glasses now. Want the government to step
43:33in and remove children from the cult.
43:35The problem is the trauma it would cause
43:37to do so. Yes. Any thoughts on how to do
43:39effectively without the trauma? That's
43:41what we were talking about with the
43:41FLDS. Like how do you avoid that?
43:44Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if
43:46you do. I mean, the kids have already
43:48got trauma, let's be honest. Um
43:51I think that
43:53like we really want the government to
43:55see see like step in. And there has been
43:57a massive call like from the Leavers
44:00Trust and from leavers and I'm always
44:03talking about this if I'm everyone like
44:04television saying, well, why isn't the
44:06government doing enough? I think there's
44:09a real um oh, well, it's religious
44:11freedom and we can't overstep our
44:13boundaries with religious freedom. Um
44:16and it's very typical of governments to
44:18do that. And the New Zealand government
44:19isn't the only one behaving in that way.
44:22But I did um read something recently
44:24where there was a judge who the father
44:29and I I feel like I'm going to say it
44:30was in Alabama, but the the father
44:33didn't want his daughter going to church
44:35because
44:36she was being traumatized from the
44:39doctrines. And the father won the case.
44:42And so now his
44:45child is no longer allowed to go to
44:47church where she's being traumatized.
44:50And I think it does take the law
44:51stepping in and making these kind of
44:53decisions
44:54to support children to get out of
44:57environments like that. And equally so,
45:00I think that will apply to Gloriavale as
45:01well. And then the Japanese government
45:03has a
45:05it's illegal to tell a child that
45:07they're going to hell
45:09in Japan because of the
45:11psychological harm that it causes. So,
45:13slowly, there are governments that are
45:16starting to go, well, no, we can like we
45:19can see what's happening in the mental
45:21health system because of religious harm.
45:24And I think that I'm hoping that the New
45:26Zealand government goes in that
45:28direction where we're recognizing not
45:30only physical abuse to children, but the
45:32psychological abuse to children within
45:34religious institutions.
45:36Yeah. Well, that's the thing too because
45:39sure religious freedom, but at the end
45:40of the day, they still have to abide by
45:43the law which harming children is
45:46against the law in most cases.
45:49And so, the hard thing is
45:52the children are usually programmed to
45:54not speak to the outsiders even if they
45:56are being harmed because they're told
45:58that the outside is even more scary than
46:00what they're already facing. Yeah. So,
46:03it's really hard to get them to
46:05cooperate if someone does want to come
46:07in and do something about it.
46:09I know. It is so hard.
46:12I think this is why like you know, if we
46:13can have school environments that are
46:15safe for kids where they have good
46:17relationships with teachers and
46:19counselors and you know, a supportive
46:21safe schooling environment, that can be
46:23a massive support for children to feel
46:25safe to come forward as well. Um but
46:28it's it's such a tricky one and it's
46:30really hard. Um
46:33yeah.
46:34Before we get to more questions cuz I
46:36know that this was important to you and
46:38it's important for me to discuss it with
46:40you.
46:41Talking about reclaiming your indigenous
46:43background and how it was erased from
46:46your identity and how you've been able
46:48to get it back or at least work on
46:51learning more about your heritage.
46:53Yeah, totally. So,
46:55when I was in Gloriavale very young, um
46:58I was taught that
47:00uh you weren't to identify as being
47:02Māori. I'm I'm indigenous Māori. And um
47:06there was only one other family who was
47:08Māori in Gloriavale.
47:10So,
47:12I was I identified as Māori and I got in
47:15trouble and was publicly shamed in a
47:18meeting with everyone in the in the
47:20leader who did it was his name was
47:22Howard Smitherman. He is well, he calls
47:24himself Howard Temple.
47:26And um
47:28he was he basically told me that in
47:31front of everyone that you know, it's a
47:33sin to identify as being a Māori because
47:36you're God's child. And so,
47:40I remember at the time being really
47:41pissed off about it as well because I
47:43was like, who is he to tell me, you
47:45know, how I can identify? Because I did
47:48feel Māori and I felt proud to be Māori
47:51even though I had very little connection
47:53to it.
47:54So, after leaving, um
47:57I like actually it was my when my tower
47:59came back in. My So, tower is
48:01grandmother from um
48:02me on my dad's side. She's Māori. So,
48:04she came back in because she wanted to
48:06support our family to leave. And she
48:09would just even just calling her tower
48:11was a really like almost like a
48:13rebellious thing that we were allowed to
48:16do. She had a lot of sway with my
48:19grandfather because he respected her
48:21um for some reason. I just think she was
48:24quite a powerful woman.
48:26And um so, calling her tower and then
48:30she she would wear her hair like very
48:32curly which was like super cool. And
48:35then after we left, I learned some of
48:38the Māori language so I can speak a
48:40little bit. And then just slowly but
48:43surely these ways of like wearing a
48:44pounamu which is a jade piece of stone
48:48um it's a very traditional thing for
48:51Māori people to do. Understanding the
48:53history of Māori, um
48:55I actually when I was in high school in
48:59Gloriavale
49:01was did I did I like a topic? We had to
49:04do an essay and I chose um the Treaty of
49:06Waitangi which is a very imp important
49:09part of New Zealand history. It's
49:11when the the treaty was signed after the
49:14wars between the British Empire and the
49:17Māori tribes. So,
49:19I tried to absorb as much as much as I
49:21could in Gloriavale through the avenues
49:23that I could, but we were very much
49:26suppressed and not allowed to speak the
49:28language or anything.
49:29After coming out, it was so it was such
49:32a beautiful part of myself to be able to
49:33reclaim to like
49:36know [clears throat] that I am like part
49:38of this land and part of its people and
49:40that I have roots and history and
49:41heritage here.
49:43I don't feel like I was ever able to
49:46really feel that or allowed to access
49:48that in Gloriavale. I was just a nobody.
49:52But out here in the world I'm actually
49:54allowed to have rights
49:56um and get support from my iwi, which is
49:59my tribe,
50:01to be able to support me to go to school
50:03and after Gloriavale like they have
50:05grants and things like that to support
50:07Māori. So that was really amazing and
50:11it's been a big part of me healing like
50:13a fragmented part of my identity.
50:17Yeah, that's so beautiful and of course
50:19it's ironic and completely backwards
50:22that they shame you for identifying a
50:24certain way meanwhile they were
50:26uniforms. Meanwhile they're like
50:28completely I making you identify as
50:31something else.
50:33And I
50:33>> Only when it's in their favor. Yeah, and
50:36that happens in so many places or like
50:38how dare you even identify with your
50:39sexuality? You're just a child of God.
50:42But they're they're limiting. I mean
50:44identity doesn't have to be one or the
50:46other. It's a scope. It's this That's
50:48why it's so beautiful because we're all
50:50so different and we come from so many
50:52different places and we feel differently
50:54and we present differently and all of
50:55that is part of us and so to limit that
50:58is actually creating an identity of
51:00itself.
51:02Yeah, 100% but I expose it it you know
51:04it serves their purposes. They want you
51:07to be in the identity that they can
51:09control and that they have shaped
51:11because they want you to be formed in a
51:13way that fits into their world. Mhm.
51:16So how do you think your personality has
51:18changed or expanded since being able to
51:21fully grasp all these different parts of
51:23yourself?
51:24Yeah, that's so that's such a good
51:26question. I actually don't feel like
51:30hugely different. I just feel more me.
51:34So it has I don't feel that I've got
51:36undergone this insane transformation. I
51:39just feel like all of the thoughts and
51:41the the
51:42feelings that I already had now have
51:45space to be expressed in this person. So
51:49like everything like I
51:51remember being a young girl and feeling
51:54like that all of me was trapped behind a
51:57wall inside myself. Like I I always felt
52:01that I was wearing a mask and like
52:04presenting to the world in this way that
52:06would keep me safe and would be
52:08acceptable in the world that I lived in.
52:10And I feel that coming out of Gloriavale
52:13has just allowed me to go, "Well, I
52:14don't have to hide anymore."
52:16And I can just if I think something I
52:18can say it. If I feel something I can
52:20listen to it. Like I just feel so much
52:24more me. And it's that's like incredible
52:28to just be able to actually be yourself
52:30in the world.
52:31Yes, that's what it is. It's the peace
52:34and the simplicity of simply being able
52:36to exist as yourself. Yeah.
52:40>> The the safety to exist and take up
52:42space.
52:44Mhm. I still struggle with it a little
52:46bit in my family because
52:48I'm an atheist, they're Christian. I
52:49don't believe the same things as they
52:51do. So you know, I I sometimes struggle
52:54to know where I fit in my family. But I
52:57also alternatively have other people
52:59like you know my partner who is so
53:01supportive of me who just love me
53:04in whatever way that I want to be. And I
53:07guess experiencing true love rather than
53:09the conditional or abusive type of love
53:11that we were taught um really changed me
53:15and made me learn how to love myself
53:18too.
53:19Yeah, and that's something important too
53:21and then we'll take more questions. But
53:23did it take you a while to allow
53:26yourself to be loved in the way that you
53:29deserve? So many times all of us are
53:31like we feel that unworthiness and so we
53:34end up go at least
53:36from what I've noticed in my experience
53:38and other people it seems like we are
53:40gravitating to these toxic relationships
53:42right out of the cult because you feel
53:43like that's the type of love you
53:44deserve. So did it take you a while to
53:47fully lean into a pure beautiful healthy
53:50type of love?
53:52Yeah, it definitely did. It took me
53:54years and years. And I think for the
53:56first wee while after leaving the cult
53:59it was really just survival like "What
54:01am I going to do with my life now? How
54:03do I live? How do I dress?" Like really
54:04basic stuff. And it so it wasn't for
54:08years and years like until that I could
54:10go, "Okay, well, maybe I'll go to
54:12therapy now." I didn't feel ready for
54:14therapy for a long long time.
54:16Uh and then it was kind of when I
54:18started writing my book and telling my
54:20story. That's what really opened the
54:23floodgates for me in terms of "Well, I'm
54:26going to take all of this crap that I've
54:28been taught out of my body and start to
54:30actually understand who I am, what I've
54:32been through, what I've experienced, how
54:34it's shaped me
54:35and then learn about who I am and what I
54:38like and you know really start to love
54:41that about myself." So that was about
54:442017
54:45which was we left in 2019.
54:48So about 2017 I wrote my book and then
54:51from there it's been this journey and
54:53I've been through a lot like a lot of
54:54different relationships as you say and
54:57so I'm looking back at them going, "Oh
54:58my gosh, how could I ever have been with
55:01this person?" That's just crazy to me as
55:05the person I am today. But at the time
55:08that's like like my standards were so
55:12low because I had no idea what healthy
55:16love looked like and what like a woman
55:19being treated well looked like. And also
55:22I didn't I came out with this idea that
55:24like, "Well, it has to be the first
55:26person you ever sleep with or it had you
55:28know, you have to be stuck with that
55:30person for life." And part of it was
55:32that permission giving to go, "You're
55:34allowed to leave these relationships."
55:37And so even though I find breakups
55:39incredibly hard, I don't think anyone
55:41finds them easy.
55:43I've always been willing to walk away
55:45from a relationship if it was not good
55:47for me personally and prioritize myself
55:50first. And my partner and I have had
55:52this conversation. Like we have hard
55:55boundaries where we're like, "If this
55:56happens, it's over."
55:58And um that's been really healthy for us
56:00cuz we both know where we stand. And
56:03then also you know, I've said to him if
56:05I'm ever unhappy in this relationship
56:07like I will leave. So like and it's very
56:10clear to us that independently we look
56:13after ourselves first and then we can
56:15come together and be in a relationship
56:18after that because we're both looking
56:20after ourselves. So
56:22yeah, it's it's really like I think this
56:25is why this relationship now I've we've
56:27been together six years. Um prior to
56:30that all my relationships were only
56:32about a year or so because they weren't
56:35right for me and I was learning and I
56:37felt like I had to earn love. I felt
56:39like if I do more, I work harder on this
56:42relationship it's going to be you know,
56:44we can make it work. Um so I had to
56:47completely change the mentality I was
56:48approaching relationships with. Yes. Oh,
56:52we could do a whole podcast on that and
56:54I've talked about it too because it's
56:55such a process. And it's not even just
56:58people who have left cults because
57:01as society as a whole thinks that men
57:04should be on top and it's a patriarchal
57:05society. There's so many things that
57:07everyone needs to kind of come to terms
57:09with and I think specifically women need
57:11to learn how to step into their power
57:13and step into those relationships that
57:16do empower them further instead of push
57:18them down.
57:19Because they exist. I mean it's hard to
57:21find but
57:22>> [laughter]
57:23>> I think we're both testaments that it
57:24does happen. You can find men who are
57:27willing to come at the relationship as
57:30an equal partnership instead of one
57:32above the other and it's beautiful when
57:34when it works.
57:35>> [laughter]
57:36>> It's so beautiful. It's the best thing
57:38in my life like
57:40and you know when you come to a
57:41relationship you bring all of your
57:44unhealthy attachment styles and all like
57:46all of the trauma and all of the
57:48baggage. And both of us have had hard
57:50backgrounds. So you know, we're we're
57:52really aware of that and we talk about
57:54it a lot and we just try to communicate
57:57because um you know, it's
58:00we all come with a whole set of like
58:02beliefs and everything that we bring to
58:03the table when we enter a relationship.
58:06You're right. It totally [clears throat]
58:07is a whole podcast on its own.
58:10>> [laughter]
58:11>> Yes. Okay, so let's take a few more
58:13questions before we sign off here.
58:16Awesome.
58:17What was the one thing that shocked you
58:19the most when you came out as in having
58:21to pay for something? Yeah. Using money.
58:25Um I what was shocked me the most was
58:28that like
58:31that I literally could have a choice
58:33about like what to dress myself in every
58:36morning. So not just like, "Oh, I can
58:38wear this one thing today." It was like
58:39every morning I can wear something
58:41different. That's crazy.
58:44>> [laughter]
58:45>> Like my cupboard at Gloriavale and the
58:48family cupboard that we all shared had
58:50four dresses of the same thing and that
58:52was my entire wardrobe. So for me to now
58:56go into my walk-in closet today and see
58:59everything with a hundred different
59:01colors in there and to like literally
59:03put on this t-shirt today to wear on
59:07this live is crazy to me. It's still
59:10it's still crazy to me. Like it's the
59:13most simple thing in the world but when
59:15you have not had and enjoyed that human
59:18right for most of your life
59:21it feels like such a blessing and you're
59:24just so grateful for the most simple
59:26thing in your life that you get to
59:28choose to put on a t-shirt in the
59:30morning instead of wearing a hideous
59:32dress. Identity, even just how to do
59:35your hair or probably piercings too if
59:38you choose to get piercings. Just
59:40anything that has to do with your own
59:42persona, that's usually the first thing
59:44people mess with or play around with cuz
59:46it's the safest is, okay, I can choose
59:49to wear something that was not allowed
59:51or I can choose to dye my hair or cut my
59:52hair or whatever it is that makes you
59:55feel like you. It's such a liberating
59:57thing. It's so liberating, especially
1:00:00the cutting of hair too cuz we were not
1:00:02allowed to cut our hair at all in
1:00:04Gloriavale. So, you know, like I think
1:00:07last Christmas I had my hair down to my
1:00:08shoulders and I was like,
1:00:10"Stuff you, Gloriavale."
1:00:12>> [laughter]
1:00:14>> You know, it's so empowering. You just
1:00:15get to make choices because my body
1:00:17belongs to me now, but it never did. For
1:00:19most of my life it was going to belong
1:00:22to the church and belong to my parents
1:00:24and then eventually belong to a man.
1:00:25Like,
1:00:27you know, you never belong to yourself,
1:00:28but today I do.
1:00:30I love that. Any other questions?
1:00:33How do they reach new members? Do they
1:00:35try to bring people in or do they just
1:00:37want to have lots of babies?
1:00:40They um so, they have a concert that
1:00:42they run where outsiders can come in and
1:00:45they put on it's like a show. It's very
1:00:48strange. Like, there's a lot of
1:00:50I say strange because if you went to
1:00:52one, you'd be like, "What is happening
1:00:54here?" Like, it's like a um
1:00:56a show that runs for a few hours. You go
1:00:59in, there's singing, dancing, they wear
1:01:01costumes. Like, they put on a fully
1:01:03themed show. Uh all of the church
1:01:06members participate and so, outsiders
1:01:09come in, you get fed like a three-course
1:01:11meal. Um and it's their way of saying,
1:01:14"Well, we're a light on the hill,
1:01:16witnessing for God." And
1:01:18every, you know, the world can come in
1:01:20and see that our, you know, don't don't
1:01:22put your light under a bushel is the
1:01:24scripture that they use.
1:01:26So,
1:01:28some ways people can be exposed like
1:01:30that, but a lot of times it's people who
1:01:32write to Gloriavale that are like
1:01:34attracted because they interest they're
1:01:35looking already for intentional
1:01:37communities or communal type living.
1:01:40So, there's not a heap that join.
1:01:43Mainly, it's just people who are born
1:01:45into the church, but there's a few.
1:01:47Mhm.
1:01:48What are they actually singing and
1:01:50dancing about? Is it Bible stories or
1:01:54Some of it's Bible stories, but a lot of
1:01:56it's like like
1:01:57just music. So, they play a lot of
1:02:00instruments. So, I grew up playing
1:02:02I think like five instruments.
1:02:05Um and
1:02:07the they do do by like they'll the young
1:02:10people will all file on stage and sing
1:02:12like a Christian hymn.
1:02:14Um but it's a lot of different types of
1:02:17thing. If I can get a concert um
1:02:20recording, I will send it to you because
1:02:23it's it's just something else to watch.
1:02:26It's a real and I don't know I don't
1:02:27think other cults really do that kind of
1:02:30thing. Gloriavale is a little bit of an
1:02:31outlier in some of the practices that
1:02:34they have. 12 Tribes. Have you looked
1:02:36into them yet? No. Similar?
1:02:40>> Very similar in that way. Like, even
1:02:43their weddings are very kooky
1:02:46reenactments of Jesus Christ calling his
1:02:49bride from the forest and there's like
1:02:51costumes and there're demons that
1:02:54they're slaying and they invite the
1:02:55public to come to their weddings. I it's
1:02:57top of mind cuz I just did an interview
1:02:59yesterday on it or two days ago. And
1:03:02they also travel in big buses and they
1:03:05sing and dance and pass out tea at big
1:03:08events and concerts to try and bring
1:03:10people in. And then they have what's
1:03:12called the Yellow Deli locations, I
1:03:14think all over the world actually, that
1:03:17bring people in to have incredibly
1:03:19delicious food in this very unique
1:03:21setting that feels like a treehouse kind
1:03:23of and they all dress the same and it's
1:03:26a way to lure people in, but then once
1:03:27they get there, you realize that you
1:03:30don't get food anywhere near that type
1:03:32of cuisine and it's all very controlled
1:03:34and communal living. It's yeah, that
1:03:37would be interesting to have a
1:03:38conversation with you and when he's
1:03:41left. Yeah.
1:03:43Yeah.
1:03:45Okay, any other final questions before
1:03:47we go?
1:03:52Do current members ever try to kidnap
1:03:53their family members who've left and
1:03:55take them back?
1:03:58Yes.
1:03:59So, um
1:04:02if you Google John Ready,
1:04:04his story is pretty amazing. Um his
1:04:08story of getting his family back.
1:04:11He's a Gloriavale leaver. And then also,
1:04:15if you read the book Sins of the Father
1:04:18by um Fleur Bell,
1:04:21sh- that's the story of Phil. So, Phil
1:04:25is my uncle and he kidnapped his entire
1:04:28family from Gloriavale. I say kidnapped,
1:04:30I'm like he's taken his lit- lit-
1:04:31literally taken his family out of the
1:04:34place.
1:04:35Um
1:04:36but that would be an excellent book for
1:04:38you to read. That covers that like those
1:04:41topics in detail.
1:04:43So, what about people though? I think
1:04:45this person's asking someone who has
1:04:47left and then someone who is currently
1:04:49in goes and tries to kidnap them back
1:04:52into the cult. Oh.
1:04:54I don't think that's ever happened.
1:04:56Okay.
1:04:57So, once you leave, you can feel pretty
1:04:59safe that no one's coming after you.
1:05:01I think so. Yeah, yeah. It's like it's
1:05:04just the getting out that's the hard
1:05:06part. Like, that's the part that it's
1:05:09like the psychological gates in your
1:05:11mind, but also there are literal gates
1:05:14that you have to traverse across like
1:05:16paddocks for miles and miles. And then
1:05:18there's one gate onto the property
1:05:21across a bridge over and like a lake
1:05:24inlet. So, it's like incredibly isolated
1:05:26and hard to get out and it's completely
1:05:28far away from any type of civilization.
1:05:30So, even once you got to the main road,
1:05:33you would be walking for hours and hours
1:05:35and hours trying to find someplace to
1:05:37be. But it's the getting out that's the
1:05:38hard part. Yeah.
1:05:40Yeah, because you don't have vehicles of
1:05:42your own, do you? They're communal
1:05:44vehicles? They're communal vehicles and
1:05:47also women don't learn to drive. There's
1:05:49only a very select few women who are
1:05:51taught to drive in order to do
1:05:53groceries. But like I never expected to
1:05:56get my driver's license. It was not
1:05:59something on my agenda. Um Okay. I was
1:06:02I'd never have needed it, I suppose.
1:06:05Uh but only men all the men are taught
1:06:07how to drive pretty much.
1:06:09Okay. Yeah, I mean you're trapped in so
1:06:12many ways physically, emotionally.
1:06:16Oh, that's crazy. Is there anything that
1:06:18we didn't cover legislation-wise that
1:06:20you wanted to mention today before we
1:06:22sign off?
1:06:24Uh I think we covered a lot. Um there
1:06:26was a lot there.
1:06:28I mean,
1:06:29no, I think that's that was probably
1:06:30good. It's been an awesome conversation.
1:06:33Really great questions.
1:06:34Yeah, yeah, we have an amazing audience
1:06:37who tunes in and asks really thoughtful
1:06:39things. So, thank you guys for joining
1:06:41us and make sure you go watch the first
1:06:43episode if you haven't already. All the
1:06:45links are in the description as well
1:06:46social media, but do you want to tell
1:06:47people where they can find you and
1:06:49support you?
1:06:50Yeah, totally. So, if you want to follow
1:06:52along with my story and if you want any
1:06:54support as well, you can find me at
1:06:56Lilia Tarawa. It's l i l i a t a r a w a
1:07:01and
1:07:02I'm on Instagram, TikTok, Threads,
1:07:05YouTube. So, it's the same handle on all
1:07:08of the platforms.
1:07:09Okay, perfect. This has been so awesome.
1:07:12Thank you for coming back.
1:07:14Uh it's been such a pleasure. Love
1:07:16chatting with you. There's so many
1:07:18parallels. There's like a lot of us who
1:07:20leave have similar stories. Oh my gosh,
1:07:23I know. It's basically the same, but
1:07:25just slightly different ingredients, but
1:07:27it's all
1:07:28feels like it all leads to the same
1:07:29crappy cookie
1:07:31of control.
1:07:33So, I'm going to be going to call it a
1:07:34cookie, I'm going to call it a biscuit
1:07:36cuz cookies are delicious.
1:07:37>> [laughter]
1:07:39>> So, if anything ever happens in the
1:07:41news, if you're part of any legislation
1:07:44that comes out or you want to share
1:07:45something, always let us know because we
1:07:47love to do culty news updates and I'm
1:07:49sure people would like to be kept in the
1:07:52loop of what's going on, too. Sure.
1:07:54Yeah, absolutely. I'll keep you looped
1:07:56in. I I think there's a lot of exciting
1:07:58things coming out the next year. And
1:08:00when I say exciting, it's exciting in
1:08:02like steps forward
1:08:03coverage on the cult and things like
1:08:05that. So, yeah, it'll be awesome. I'll
1:08:06keep you looped in so everyone can
1:08:09yeah, know about it.
1:08:11Perfect. And we are working on Guys, if
1:08:14you're watching, we're working on
1:08:15getting more people who have left
1:08:17Gloriavale. Things are in the works.
1:08:19Conversations are about to be had. So,
1:08:21looking forward to that. Stay tuned.
1:08:23Subscribe. Hit the bell so you don't
1:08:24miss any new updates. And thank you guys
1:08:27so much for watching and until next time
1:08:30follow your highest excitement, be
1:08:31conscious and be well.

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