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Escaped Inmate Hostage Rescue w/ WCTRU — Transcript

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0:00On the afternoon of July 11th, 2022, at
0:02about 2:00 p.m., two Hamilton County,
0:05Ohio Sheriff's deputies observed an
0:07escapee from the River City Correctional
0:09Facility in Cincinnati
0:11in the parking lot of the Baymont Inn
0:13Hotel.
0:14Although they were unable to make a
0:15positive identification before the
0:17suspect entered the hotel, they
0:19contacted the Mason Police Department
0:20for support. A Mason officer learned
0:23that the female observed in the parking
0:25lot with the suspect, whom she had just
0:27met, was registered to room 310.
0:30The two detectives, as well as several
0:31additional Mason Police officers,
0:33knocked on the door of the room and were
0:35immediately met with screaming, yelling,
0:37profanity, and threats of violence made
0:39by the suspect.
0:41Mason Police immediately requested the
0:43assistance of the Warren County Tactical
0:45Response Unit.
0:47The suspect then barricaded himself
0:49inside the room, keeping the woman as a
0:51hostage, and threatening to kill her if
0:53officers came through the door.
0:55Several times, the suspect was seen at
0:57the window, and officers observed a
0:58knife in his hand.
1:01WCTRU used a negotiator through the
1:03night to talk to the suspect, but at
1:05approximately 2:30 a.m., as negotiations
1:07broke down, the team forced entry into
1:10room 310 and observed the suspect
1:12holding a knife to the hostage's throat.
1:14A single TRU member fired one round into
1:17the suspect's face, ending the standoff,
1:20and recovering the hostage.
1:24In keeping with our standard policy, we
1:26will not be using the suspect's name or
1:28identifying him in any way.
1:30It is our hope that he will be lost to
1:32the sands of time.
1:34We will, of course, be using the
1:36officers' names because they are heroes
1:37and need to be remembered.
1:40My guests today are Sergeant Nate Trout,
1:43who's been with the Lebanon Police
1:44Department for 16 years, and the
1:46Tactical Response Unit for 13.
1:49Sergeant Jim Doughty, who's been with
1:51the Warren County Sheriff's Office for
1:5319 years, and a part of the Tactical
1:55Response Unit for 17 years.
1:57And Deputy Scott Williams, a 25-year
1:59veteran of the Warren County Sheriff's
2:00Office, and a 21-year veteran of the
2:02team.
2:05My name is John Becker. For the past
2:08four decades, I've dedicated my life to
2:10protecting tactical operators. During
2:12this time, I've worked with many of the
2:13world's top law enforcement and military
2:15units.
2:17As a result, I've had the privilege of
2:19working with the amazing leaders who
2:21take teams into the world's most
2:22dangerous situations.
2:27The goal of this podcast is to share
2:29their stories in hopes of making us all
2:32better leaders, better thinkers, and
2:34better people.
2:37Welcome to the Debrief.
2:49Guys, thanks for being here. I
2:50appreciate you joining me on the
2:51Debrief. Thanks for having us. Thank
2:52you. So,
2:54um,
2:54why don't we start with just kind of
2:56your individual backgrounds, you know,
2:58how long you've been on the team and all
2:59of that? Uh, I got on uh,
3:0317 years of it, so next month will be 17
3:05years total for me.
3:07Um,
3:08been a team leader for
3:11I want to say like 10 of those.
3:13And um,
3:15and that's been it. I I've had other
3:18ancillary jobs on the team, grenadier,
3:20stuff like that, but uh, the bulk of it
3:21has been
3:23uh, just entry and an entry team leader.
3:25Scott?
3:26Yeah, I've
3:27I've it was 19, no, 2001, I think, when
3:31I started getting involved with the
3:33team.
3:34Uh, back when I was old school tactics,
3:36old school ways of doing it, and then
3:38it's just kind of graduated in. I moved
3:40up the ranks of, you know, an assistant
3:42team leader, a team leader uh, position
3:44came open as uh, the assistant
3:46commander, and I've been that for
3:47several years now. Got it. Nate, what
3:49about you? Uh, 2011, in February 2011 is
3:53when I started on the team. Uh, so 13
3:56years, uh,
3:58been a cop for 16.
4:00Uh, I took over the team commander uh,
4:03about 6 months prior to this uh, callout
4:06that we're here for, so a couple years
4:08now, but 2 and 1/2 years now, but Okay.
4:11Well, why don't let's like let's let's
4:12start with talk to me about the team,
4:14right? Because it's always nice to give
4:15context to where we are. Um, Nate, what
4:18explain explain the team because
4:19multi-jurisdictional, regional team,
4:21like there's a lot going on here, so
4:23help help me understand it. Yeah, so
4:26state of Ohio really doesn't have very
4:28many full-time teams, uh, very few. You
4:31I think less than five.
4:33So, uh, it's very
4:36it's very common to see
4:37multi-jurisdictional teams. Uh, some
4:40counties have multiple. So, you'll have
4:41like two or three agencies uh, that make
4:44up one team, and you know, like a
4:46Sheriff's Office and one other agency
4:47will make another team.
4:49Ours is different in the fact that we're
4:50the only one in the county.
4:52Um, so every major agency, like
4:55full-time agency, we have a few that
4:57don't contribute, but those are really
4:58small agencies. Um, they contribute
5:01officers. There is no cap on it, so you
5:03can pretty much
5:05if somebody said we want to add six
5:07people, as long as they meet the
5:08criteria, then we would take them. Oh,
5:10nice. Okay. So, we don't have we don't
5:12have that magic number. Uh, we're
5:15right now we're at 26.
5:17Um,
5:18but they
5:20every every agency that contributes
5:22officers, their chief or
5:25sheriff, I guess, also, they uh, make up
5:28a policy board, and that's how we're
5:30governed.
5:31So, policy board picks uh, commander,
5:34assistant commander
5:36uh, by the policy they wrote. Uh, we
5:38have a meeting once a month with them.
5:40Uh, we can't spend any money
5:42without uh, approved policy board
5:44approval. Doesn't matter what the amount
5:45is.
5:46Um, they approve our training schedule.
5:49Um,
5:49and they we we give them a debrief on
5:51every single callout we have at those
5:53meetings also. So, 26 operators, how's
5:57that kind of configured?
5:59Split into two teams? Uh, we don't
6:02split. No, we uh, so it's just one team.
6:05Uh,
6:06the way that we respond to callouts
6:08though, and the reason why there's a
6:09commander, assistant commander, why
6:10that's important is because whatever
6:14agency calls us, they technically are
6:16the ones in charge. Oh, interesting. So,
6:19whoever's the on-scene commander there,
6:21could be a road sergeant, could be the
6:23chief, it really doesn't matter. Whoever
6:25the ranking person is, they are the one
6:27that are that is in charge of that
6:29incident. So, when we respond, then
6:31we'll give them a tactical solution to
6:33the problem that they have, and it's up
6:36to them if they want to utilize that or
6:37not. So, that local jurisdiction is the
6:40incident commander, and it stays that
6:42way, and you are providing a service to
6:45that incident commander.
6:46Absolutely. Yep. Very interesting. How
6:48many how many jurisdiction how many
6:50agencies are are currently in the team?
6:52Eight. Yep.
6:54So, eight eight separate agencies
6:56comprise the team. How many are like
6:58like give me an idea how many cities are
7:00are in the county?
7:01Oh, that's that's it. So, so so there's
7:05So, every agency in the county
7:06contributes to the team.
7:07We we have small villages. So, in Ohio,
7:09you have you have townships, cities,
7:13villages, and like unincorporated areas
7:18that would fall under a township. So,
7:20usually uh, the Sheriff's Office will
7:22cover townships.
7:23Um, some townships have their own police
7:25departments. Uh, we have two township
7:27police departments that are on the team.
7:29Um,
7:31and then you have a city. City has to be
7:325,000 residents or more.
7:35Uh, anything smaller than that's a
7:36village, so we don't have any village
7:37officers on the team. Does it 5,000?
7:40That's good.
7:41of those village officers aren't
7:42full-time. Yeah, it's like a part-time
7:44thing.
7:45Yeah, so a guy that's just a Yeah, a
7:47part-time.
7:47Yeah, one of our rules is you have to be
7:49a full-time officer. Yeah.
7:50Got it. What's the op tempo for the team
7:52like? Like how many ops are a year are
7:54you doing, and kind of what is what's
7:57your what's your bread and butter work?
8:00We do
8:0214 to 26, so we've averaged one a month.
8:07This last month, we had four. Yeah. Um,
8:09it just kind of depends. Uh, there's no
8:12rhyme or reason, and there's no like
8:14favorite month either. It just seems It
8:16just seems like whatever it is, that's
8:18what it is. So,
8:19we might go two months with nothing, and
8:21then we might have a month with six or
8:22eight. Yep. We uh,
8:25we have a very good uh, relationship
8:28with our drug task force.
8:29And they realize that
8:32some of the things that they're lacking
8:34are the tactics when they're doing their
8:36drug stuff, so they ask us to help out
8:38with that. So, pretty much any kind of
8:41entry that needs to be made or a
8:42surround and callout, something like
8:43that, they just they rely on us. So,
8:46that's probably our bread and butter
8:48with it. Um, a lot of barricades,
8:50suicidals, things like that. Uh, if it's
8:53a suicidal male, or if it's a suicidal
8:56person that's armed, we still come out.
8:58Our tactics are significantly different,
9:00but we still respond out for those. I
9:02know it's a hotbed topic, but
9:04we've got a team, we've got equipment,
9:06we're going to respond out to those.
9:07Yeah, and suicidals has become a real,
9:10you know, cuz frequently what happens
9:11with suicidals is, you know, the
9:13agency or team goes out there and ends
9:15up killing the guy, which Right.
9:16feels kind of counterproductive. The
9:18goal is to get him not kill himself.
9:20Yep. Um, talk to me a little bit about
9:23So, so
9:24is there a team like who is who is your
9:27Is there a state team in Ohio that you
9:30can turn to, or are you the last resort
9:33for your county?
9:36We are absolutely the last resort for
9:38our county.
9:39We have a a state team. We have a state
9:41highway patrol. We don't have a state
9:42police department. Okay.
9:44So, state highway patrol handles um,
9:46anything state-owned, prisons, things
9:48like that. Uh, they take care of
9:51uh, vehicle crashes, you know, speeding
9:53tickets, stuff like that. Uh, but as far
9:55as
9:57incidents inside of the county
9:59outside of a prison
10:01we we are the one-stop shop. We handle
10:03that. Got it. Yeah, and and I think one
10:05of the things that that gets lost in in
10:07especially with multi-jurisdictional
10:09teams is, you know, people like, "Well,
10:11you know, there's there's these small
10:13towns, these small counties." Like,
10:15yeah, in the end it doesn't really
10:17matter how big the town or county is.
10:19Like in this case, it it's hostage
10:21rescue and it it's your problem.
10:23Yeah. So,
10:24um maybe like Scott, why don't we start
10:28with
10:30the beginning of the sensitive. Like
10:33how did how does this thing kick off
10:35initially?
10:36Sure.
10:37And then how do you guys get involved?
10:38So, days before this starts
10:40um
10:42Hamil So, there's
10:44jails inside of Hamilton County.
10:47Hamilton County is just south of us.
10:49Hamilton County encompasses the city of
10:51Cincinnati. Okay. So
10:53So, you guys are just north of
10:55Cincinnati.
10:55Exactly. We're the county just north of
10:57Cincinnati.
10:57Got it. So, two inmates escape from a a
11:01halfway house. They're court-ordered
11:03there. They went to prison. They're in
11:05this uh getting rehabilitation. Two
11:08inmates escape.
11:10Um
11:12don't think anything of it for a couple
11:13days cuz it's Hamilton County's thing.
11:15They're they're doing their thing trying
11:17to locate them.
11:18What was the What were the inmates for?
11:20Uh
11:21one of I I only know one of them. One of
11:23them was uh had a pretty bad rap sheet,
11:26but ultimately he uh struck uh his
11:293-month-old child several times, spit in
11:31the child's face, and then ended up
11:32recording the thing.
11:34And uh that
11:35This is This is our guy who is going to
11:37That's This is our guy. That's why
11:39that's why he went to the So, he had he
11:41had time on the books. Yeah. He
11:43originally went to prison for a
11:44shooting.
11:46Okay.
11:46So, he went to he went to prison for a
11:47shooting that occurred in Cincinnati.
11:50Then went to the halfway house after he
11:51got violated probably by his parole or
11:53probation, whatever it was for that
11:55video he made with the 3-month-old.
11:57Yeah, beating his 3-month-old child,
11:59spitting on him. Not a real nice guy.
12:00No, yeah, he's he's pretty much already
12:02pegged my foot.
12:03Yeah.
12:04Uh so, okay, so he these two escape Yep.
12:07Um
12:08So where this takes place is inside the
12:11city of Mason. City of Mason, beautiful
12:14city. I think it's the seventh safest
12:17city in the United States. I mean, they
12:18do a great job. It's a massive tourism.
12:21It's the home of Procter & Gamble. Um
12:23Fortune 500 companies. Just a great
12:26city.
12:27Um
12:28there's a massive theme park there. The
12:30ATP tennis tournament's there.
12:33What's the theme park out of curiosity?
12:34King's Island. Okay.
12:35Yeah.
12:37Um
12:38I'm working day shift that day
12:40patrolling the area around the city of
12:42Mason. And I start hearing grumblings of
12:44something going on at a hotel
12:47on Beach Boulevard, which is up by the
12:49theme park.
12:50Don't really pay much attention to it uh
12:53because it's all like
12:55road supervisor called this detective,
12:58make these phone calls, something going
12:59on at the beach here. I really don't
13:00know what's going on.
13:03Uh we have an app on our phone that uh
13:06we all share information with.
13:08And somebody says, "Hey, something's
13:10going on
13:12at the Baymont Inn on Beach Boulevard,
13:15FYI."
13:17So, I'm like, "Okay, it's near my shift
13:18change. I'm going to head up there."
13:21As I'm headed up there is when the city
13:24of Mason
13:25formally requests the tactical unit
13:28respond up that way. Got it.
13:30So, ultimately what happened was
13:34Hamilton County detectives
13:36see the suspect in the parking lot. They
13:39are able to confirm that's him. He meets
13:41a girl, an unknown girl in the parking
13:43lot. They go into the hotel and
13:45ultimately get a room.
13:48They go up to uh the third floor and she
13:51has actually rented the room, room 310.
13:55And they go into room 310.
13:57And that's kind of what kicks this off.
13:59Got it. So, so are were the Hamilton
14:01County detectives there there were like
14:03they're looking for this guy?
14:04Absolutely.
14:05Yeah, so so
14:05phone pings, everything they can do.
14:08They've gotten a tip somehow. They knew
14:10that we need to check this hotel and
14:12sure enough it pans out.
14:14Got it.
14:15So, so they trace him up to room 310,
14:18you said?
14:18Yep. 310, third floor.
14:21pin this down. They still don't know who
14:22the girl is.
14:23Uh what So, you know, this point you
14:25guys have been activated. What happens
14:26next? So
14:29uh we the three of us uh are all
14:32working. We pretty much get there at the
14:34same time, maybe within 2 minutes of
14:36each other. We're we're rolling up on
14:37scene.
14:39We kind of ask, you know, "What do you
14:40got?" "Here's the situation." They
14:44When the door shut, they went up and
14:46knocked on the door and said, "Front
14:47desk."
14:48Uh room service. Room service.
14:50And
14:51he sees that, he immediately runs to the
14:53window thinks that he's going to jump
14:55out the window, but it's the third
14:57floor.
14:58We know from the interview after the
15:00fact with Kelly, the the woman inside
15:02the room
15:03that
15:04she says, looks down, says, "There's
15:06cops everywhere."
15:08Turns to the door, says, "You come in
15:09here, I'm going to kill her."
15:11And that starts the hostage situation.
15:13And so, yeah, now we have like a
15:15righteous hostage situation. He's
15:17manifested intent to kill her. Yeah, so
15:19the Well, there's there was some
15:20questions. There's some questions there
15:22though because we don't know who she is.
15:24Does she know him? Does she not know
15:26him?
15:27or is she a willing participant?
15:29Yeah. Um and it
15:31through the night
15:33we just don't know enough
15:36to make that decision until a certain
15:38time when something kicks off and we're
15:40like, "That made our decision for us."
15:42Got it. Okay, so
15:45they you guys get there and you're
15:46starting to do the initial
15:48investigation, right? Obviously
15:52different county
15:54they're dirt bag now you're a problem.
15:56Uh-huh.
15:57Like what what is your initial
16:00investigation? When you guys first get
16:01there, what are you doing for homework?
16:03What information are you getting and
16:05gathering?
16:06We were a little behind just because we
16:09didn't find out that any of this was
16:10really going on until then. So, uh Scott
16:15had heard on the radio. The three of us
16:17were all work all worked that day. I
16:18mean, we we start work at 8:00 in the
16:20morning. This happened What time we get
16:22the call? Like 3:45?
16:233:45, somewhere around
16:24So, we're all getting ready to leave at
16:268:00 at 4:00. So, we had already worked
16:28the whole day. I didn't hear anything
16:30about it. I don't think you heard
16:32anything about it.
16:33Yeah. Uh so, when we get there, I
16:37I looked at Scott. I was like, "What
16:39what is going on?" Because in our
16:40county, you don't usually have just a
16:43bun a swarm of cops somewhere without us
16:46all knowing what's going on. Yeah, cuz I
16:48mean, this is small agencies, you know,
16:50everybody knows everybody.
16:51other.
16:52Yeah, we all know each other. Yeah. So,
16:53it it's not like something big can't
16:56happen without us already all knowing.
16:57So, that was automatically odd. Um
17:01and originally we were told that there
17:04was two females in there and that he had
17:07a gun in there is what we were told
17:09originally when we get first got there.
17:11Um
17:12so we we did a little bit of research
17:15with uh the the units that were on
17:17scene. And they had a whole task force
17:19assigned just to those two inmates.
17:21So, there was there's at least 20 of
17:23them there, I would say. Uh they had
17:25their command staff that, you know, they
17:27had a lieutenant and a couple sergeants
17:29that were there uh just
17:32in charge of the detectives that were
17:33looking for the two.
17:35So, we of course went back. Me and him
17:38kind of split the difference between the
17:40the command people that were there just
17:43talking about you know, how did you get
17:45to this location? You know
17:48how did it how did any
17:49Why are we here? How did any of How did
17:51Exactly.
17:51that you're telling me is true.
17:53How did any of this happen? And uh then
17:55we
17:57I mean, honestly, the way it sounded and
17:59the way it was coming out so quickly
18:01uh they relayed real quick that he was
18:04going to kill her. He was in a hotel
18:06room with her, just barricaded himself
18:08in there. And that was all before we got
18:10there. Mhm. So
18:12you know, I got on the app and I was
18:13like, "The page the page hasn't even
18:15gone out yet, but we need an we need
18:17immediate uh entry team right now."
18:20Yeah.
18:20So, whoever gets there, get your stuff
18:22and run up there as fast as you can. So,
18:25we did get a chance to slow things down
18:26a little bit, which was good. Um but
18:30originally, you know, I thought the
18:32three of us were going to be the entry
18:34team to go up in there because
18:36you know, we didn't we just didn't have
18:38a whole lot of information when we first
18:39responded.
18:40about this is pointing to crisis entry
18:42right out the gate.
18:43Uh We didn't know who they were. I mean,
18:46we border Hamilton County.
18:48And the
18:50Mason is not far from the county line.
18:53So, where we were at was not far from
18:54Hamilton County. How big is Mason?
18:57Population-wise?
18:58is it
18:59pretty small town? No.
19:00No. It's fairly decent.
19:02got a daytime population of
19:0570,000.
19:06Okay. All right. Um I bet they probably
19:08have
19:1150 full-time officers. Somewhere around
19:13there. I think it's more than that.
19:14Yeah, maybe be more than that.
19:16I mean, but 70,000 gives me a sense.
19:17in in Ohio It's it's fairly big.
19:20Yeah. And now you have Mason guys on
19:22your team. Yes. How many Mason guys are
19:24on the team?
19:25Three. Huh? No. Three.
19:28At the time or now?
19:29I'm trying to think at the time. Two or
19:31three?
19:32different.
19:32Yeah, somewhere around there. Yeah.
19:34Yeah.
19:35Okay.
19:36Yeah. All right. So, so when when are
19:39you first when do you first make contact
19:42or start to get direct into cuz
19:44everything you're getting up until now
19:46is kind of second-hand intelligence.
19:47When do you start to get like your own
19:49direct intelligence?
19:52It
19:53I'll probably not till we make contact
19:55by phone.
19:56So,
19:59as this is all going on,
20:01the the officers outside the door are
20:04shouting through the door and have a
20:06line of communication. It's not a a good
20:08one, but you know, there's conversation
20:11between the doors
20:14that's kind of getting funneled to us.
20:16So,
20:17we get the hotel evacuated
20:22as soon as we get enough guys together,
20:24send them upstairs with just whatever
20:26equipment we had in our cars in case we
20:28had to do a deliberate entry. We
20:30literally we we have a breaching
20:32shotgun, but we didn't have it at the
20:33time. We just took a 12-gauge shotgun
20:35with double aught up,
20:37a Halligan tool,
20:38a ram, whatever we had just in case this
20:41goes sideways.
20:44And then as officers started showing up
20:46on scene, our SWAT guys started showing
20:48up on scene,
20:49they started relieving road patrol
20:51officers
20:53and we could start formulating plans
20:55when all of our equipment starts to
20:56getting there. So, we're replacing the
20:57shotgun with our patrol shotgun with a
21:00breaching shotgun, start getting
21:01explosives together, things like that,
21:03getting ready in case we do have to do a
21:05deliberate entry.
21:06Got it.
21:07So, this kicks off 3:20 something.
21:11What time does the full team get on sir
21:13you know, whatever full team you're
21:14going to have? How long does it take you
21:15to get everybody there?
21:17Yeah, go ahead. So, I showed up fairly
21:20quick right after Scott and Nate.
21:23And Nate had sent out after the initial
21:25page like hey, this is like a legit
21:27hostage rescue.
21:29So, immediately I'm like we got to get
21:31in there. We got to get up there in case
21:32there's, you know, needs an emergency
21:34entry.
21:36So, it ended up being me and three other
21:38guys
21:39that had just rolled up on scene in the
21:42patrol vehicles. We had no team
21:43equipment there. Like Scott said, we
21:45just grabbed everything we could out of
21:46our cars, rolled up.
21:48So, it was me and three dudes
21:51relieved the patrol guys and then slowly
21:54as guys started kind of coming in,
21:58started filtering more guys inside.
22:01So, we kind of had it now, all right, we
22:03went from
22:04basic four-man you know,
22:07emergency entry team to now we got
22:09enough guys that we can kind of start
22:10formulating a deliberate entry plan and
22:13kind of get more resources in place. So,
22:15it kind of filtered I would say
22:16everybody was in
22:18within an hour. Okay. Yeah, so it's it's
22:214:30 o'clockish and now you've got full
22:24team on scene. Yeah. At at what point do
22:27you guys take over and I'm going to use
22:28the word negotiation, but it doesn't
22:30sound by your initial reactions that
22:31negotiation was what was happening
22:33through the door. So, I think our first
22:35phone call was made to him around 5:20.
22:38Okay.
22:40We had learned So, by this time
22:44he has a phone. It's Kelly's phone, the
22:47woman with him. He's calling everybody.
22:49So, by this time his mom
22:51is on scene.
22:53You push them all over to a different
22:55parking lot that's not visible to where
22:57he is.
22:59So, mom comes up and says, "Hey, I've
23:01got him on the phone here." We're able
23:03to get that phone number, set up our
23:05negotiators, set up their equipment and
23:07then once we get the road patrol
23:09officers out of there, we start making
23:11phone calls to him.
23:12Got it. I'm sure mom being on scene was
23:14really helpful too. The local police
23:16department did a great job
23:20keeping that aside from me.
23:22It's not going to end well for her son.
23:24So,
23:26so okay, you first made contact with
23:28him. What's he say? Oh.
23:34He was
23:35he wasn't cooperative at all. He was
23:36playing games with us.
23:38He
23:39he demanded we call him Lord Super Sexy
23:42on the phone.
23:44Just we didn't do that. We didn't do
23:46that.
23:47He just he wouldn't he didn't really
23:49want anything. He didn't ask for
23:51anything. He always asked to see his
23:53people which is all he wanted. There was
23:58there was probably 50
24:0150 people that were related
24:03to him that showed up eventually showed
24:05up.
24:06Oh.
24:07By the time this was done, there was
24:09over 100 people
24:10that just saw it on the news.
24:15We didn't see any part of that and they
24:17did
24:18I don't know what officers were involved
24:20in it, but they did a great job because
24:21it never got to us. So, we don't know.
24:25That was that's really kind of a
24:26separate call inside of the
24:29overall call because
24:31that had to be handled and we didn't
24:33have the ability to do that. You know,
24:34we're dealing with the
24:36with the hostage and the hostage rescue
24:38situation. We don't have time to deal
24:40with a crowd control problem. So,
24:44it was very one one-sided.
24:46He was calling everybody and telling
24:47them where he was and to come up there.
24:49So, there was yeah, probably like 100
24:51people. So, he's building a show. Yeah,
24:53absolutely. Great. That's what he
24:55wanted.
24:57Going to get it.
25:01as you're going back with Lord Super
25:02Sexy,
25:04what what point do you when do you find
25:08out about the girl and like what her
25:11relationship to him is?
25:15So, like I said, we we were originally
25:17told two females.
25:20I think that kind of got lost in
25:22translation because he
25:24the other inmate he escaped with met up
25:27with his girlfriend
25:28and they all four were in the hotel at
25:31one point.
25:33I'm not really 100% sure where that
25:35information came from. We found out
25:37pretty quick it was just her the Kelly
25:39that was in there with him.
25:42We went for a long period of time with
25:45no contact with her at all and with him.
25:49I mean
25:50it was over two hours probably. Yeah.
25:52From start to finish we made 260 phone
25:56calls to him over the period of
25:5910 hours.
26:01Just trying to build a rapport. A lot of
26:02times he'd kick us to voicemail,
26:05wouldn't pick up,
26:07but
26:08we knew pretty quick the first
26:10negotiator that talked to him,
26:13they had butted heads. I don't it just
26:16something wasn't right there. And and I
26:18think it's just because he was the first
26:19negotiator to talk to him. Once things
26:22started to calm down a little bit,
26:24our negotiator switched out and that
26:26negotiator Adam
26:31started to get a rapport with him,
26:33started talking to him. The phone calls
26:34lasted longer, starting to get a little
26:37bit more information.
26:39At the same time,
26:41Dottie's up in the hallway, he's hearing
26:44stuff through the door, conversations.
26:47So, it's still
26:49we're not sure. Is is she a willing
26:51participant? Is she a hostage?
26:53We just didn't know.
26:56Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. He was cuz
26:58he was living it up initially cuz he
27:01could see the he could see the news
27:02crews out there. And so, he was he was
27:05at the front of the hotel on the third
27:07floor. So, he was he had the window
27:09open.
27:10He was like waving his knife around and
27:12stuff in the in the third floor window
27:15initially.
27:16And we had snipers out there,
27:18but we
27:19did not at that time have enough to say,
27:22"Yeah, she's a hostage. She's not a
27:23willing participant."
27:26We never saw her from the window.
27:29So, we didn't have enough at that at
27:30that time and then he quit doing that
27:32pretty quick.
27:39Yeah, he shut the blinds pretty quick
27:41and then never looked at him again.
27:44Absolutely.
27:47What what point do you discover who this
27:50girl is and what their relationship is?
27:56Our negotiators eventually talked to her
27:58on the phone. They find out her name's
28:01Kelly Rose,
28:02able to get a Facebook profile.
28:07But
28:09the brief conversations that they had
28:11with her wasn't enough because he kept
28:14interrupting them. So, it wasn't enough
28:16to say,
28:18"Why are you there?" You know, the the
28:20negotiator couldn't talk to her
28:21one-on-one. It was with him there.
28:25So, we started piecing things together.
28:29Family members were telling us all she's
28:32so-and-so, you know, so
28:34we were able to find her Facebook
28:35profile. We kind of said, "Okay, that's
28:37who she is." But still,
28:40who is she? Like how does how does she
28:42end up with this dirtbag in a hotel
28:43room? So, the story that we got was
28:48she is getting a room there for the
28:50night. They have a mutual friend in
28:52common, a woman in common. It may have
28:54even been his girlfriend, I'm not sure.
28:57But calls Kelly and says, "Hey,
28:59Cromwell needs a place to stay for the
29:01night. Can he stay with you tonight?
29:04He's
29:05got a warrant, needs to hide." Something
29:06along those lines. And she says, "Yeah,
29:08that's fine." That's kind of how it
29:10kicks off in the parking lot.
29:12So, supposedly they had never met prior
29:14to then. So, they
29:17I don't know if she actually knew if he
29:18was one of the escaped inmates.
29:21I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't.
29:23I wouldn't be surprised if she did. So,
29:25I
29:26I don't know, but they were
29:27acquaintances, but I don't think they
29:28were any kind of relationship or
29:30anything like that. Yeah, like nothing
29:32nothing you're saying so far flips the
29:34hostage switch. Correct. Correct. Right?
29:36Like it's still like well, she invited
29:38him into a room and she's dumb enough to
29:40hang out with this guy. And so so it's
29:42like
29:43it's not it's not feeling like you need
29:46deliberate entry yet, right? Right.
29:47Right. It's It's not delivered entry,
29:49but it's also not let's just throw some
29:51gas in there and see what happens. You
29:53know, we were we were beyond that. We're
29:54like, uh we're not comfortable doing
29:56that. Yeah.
29:57Yeah, cuz if in fact that is it,
29:59whatever action you take may may launch
30:02him. Correct. Yeah, this is this is a
30:05This is a hard one. Yeah.
30:07So,
30:08what at what point does it
30:11does the negotiation change? Like when
30:14when You know, we're doing this, how
30:15long are we doing this? Like he you
30:17know, 260 phone calls, non-productive,
30:20he's playing games, inviting friends,
30:22putting on his own little show.
30:23Sure. So,
30:26we we got a pretty good feeling from the
30:29guys up there in the hallway that they
30:31were somebody was smoking meth in the
30:32room. They could smell it.
30:34Whenever that odor would come along, he
30:37would calm down. And then,
30:40when that odor would go away, he'd start
30:41getting more agitated. So, it's better
30:43than ever.
30:44As the Yeah, as the night went on, his
30:48agitation at the peak was getting worse.
30:51Yeah. There were times where he would
30:53calm, but it was getting worse at the
30:55peak.
30:57And then all of a sudden it just kind of
30:59went stagnant. Not until about 10:00,
31:0310:15,
31:05I think, is when
31:08we decided we needed to do something.
31:10Uh something small.
31:13So, the decision's made. We're going to
31:15shut uh the Wi-Fi off, which is going to
31:18kill the TVs, and we're going to shut
31:20the air conditioning off cuz it was hot.
31:22I don't know what the temperature was,
31:23but it was probably 90% humidity,
31:2690-something degrees out. It was hot.
31:28Oof. So,
31:3011th, right in the middle of middle of
31:32July, and it was it was hot that day.
31:34The hotel manager Yeah,
31:36the hotel manager says, "I can shut off
31:38the air conditioning, but it has to be
31:40the entire floor.
31:42And I can shut off the Wi-Fi to the
31:43entire building." We said, "Do it."
31:46That ultimately sparks a response. That
31:49sparks him calling us. Okay.
31:53And says,
31:55"What's going on? I don't like this." He
31:57ultimately says,
31:58"I don't like the fact that I can't see
32:00myself on TV.
32:02You need to turn TV back on."
32:05Uh at that same time, he says, "Hey,
32:08Kelly has a dog in here. This dog needs
32:10to go to the bathroom. You need to
32:12figure out how we're going to get the
32:13dog out of here."
32:15So, that conversation started because he
32:18called us. So, we're like, "Okay, this
32:21worked."
32:22Got it.
32:24Um
32:25ultimately, a few minutes later,
32:28once that phone call was made,
32:30decision's made,
32:32um
32:32we're going to reroute his phone. He's
32:35had carte blanche to call whoever he
32:36wants to.
32:38Uh we get a hold of Verizon, and we have
32:40his phone or her phone redirected to our
32:43negotiator's phone.
32:44So, he now has one friend. Absolutely.
32:47Yep. No matter who he calls on his
32:48phone,
32:49it rings to us.
32:50Phone a friend will always be the
32:52negotiator.
32:53Yep. Got it.
32:54I'm going to guess that probably doesn't
32:55go over particularly well. He uh there's
32:58an interesting uh phone call that we
33:00have. All of our phone calls that our
33:02negotiators made are recorded. And it's
33:04an interesting phone call. He's like,
33:06"Wait a minute. Why are you talking? You
33:08called me." "What number is this?" And
33:09our negotiator goes, "You called me." He
33:11goes, "No, I didn't."
33:13Uh so, he gets a little agitated, but
33:18not
33:18he's on meth. It's very confusing. Yep.
33:22Um
33:23so, I
33:24at the time it worked great. It It got
33:27the response that we wanted. And we've
33:29never done that before. Really? Mhm.
33:32What what made you decide to do that as
33:36a tactic when you hadn't used it before?
33:38Where where did you learn that you could
33:40do that?
33:41One of our negotiators. Really? Yeah.
33:44They had heard about it or read about
33:45it. He goes,
33:46"I think that we can redirect his
33:48phone." And we're like, "How do you do
33:49that?" He goes, "Hold on, let me call
33:50Verizon."
33:52Call Verizon. Verizon says, "I'm going
33:54to email you this form. Fill out this
33:55form, we'll take care of it." So, he
33:57fills it out on his phone, emails it
33:59back. Within a few minutes, they said
34:00it's done.
34:01Any phone call he makes will go to you.
34:04They ultimately said you had two
34:05decisions. We can shut the phone off
34:06completely where it won't call, but you
34:09will not be able to call it. Which you
34:10don't want.
34:11Absolutely. Or we can redirect all phone
34:13calls to you. We said, "That's what we
34:15want." And they took care of it.
34:17All right. So, now he's hot.
34:20He can't see himself on TV, and the only
34:22friend he has is you.
34:24It's about right.
34:25Yeah. Yeah. Got it. What is the next
34:28step? Are we Are we getting closer now
34:30to a resolution on who she is or why
34:33she's there? That's right around when
34:35her mom called.
34:37Yeah. So,
34:39there's there's a lot that takes place
34:41in between there. You know, there's a
34:43conversation that Nate has with Daughtry
34:45and says, "How effective are we right
34:48now? You guys have been in place, no air
34:50conditioning, kitted up, ready for a
34:53hostage rescue for hours. How effective
34:56are we?"
34:57And that's a conversation that these two
34:58have, and they'll have to fill you in on
35:00that because it ultimately leads to us
35:01doing something we've never done before.
35:04Yeah. So, Nate had come up to the hotel.
35:07I walked down to the far end from away
35:10from the room so we could talk. Uh he
35:12posed that question to me.
35:14Uh I kind of thought about it. I was
35:15like, "Man, most of the guys had worked
35:16day shift. Um we'd been in place, kind
35:20of jacked up, ready to go for this
35:22hostage rescue if need be, uh since
35:24about 4:00. It's reaching 8:00
35:28uh by the time we had this conversation.
35:30I said, "Dude, if you can get us some
35:31relief by 10:00, I think the guys are
35:33good for a couple more hours. Uh if you
35:35can get us some water and some food in
35:37between, get us some relief by 10:00, I
35:39think we're good till then."
35:41Uh so, ultimately that sparked Nate
35:44um calling another team. Yeah, but you
35:46guys are 12 hours in 90 and 90 in gear.
35:49In gear, yeah. Uh the good thing for us
35:51at the time though was uh since the PD
35:54had evacuated uh the entire hotel, we
35:56owned everything. So, all the doors were
35:58open to us.
36:00Uh we didn't have to worry about anybody
36:01else on any floor. Uh so,
36:05uh at some point we started kind of
36:06cycling guys out of the stack. Like,
36:07"Hey, go sit down for a minute." Uh so,
36:09we could kind of dip into these other
36:10rooms.
36:11still working on the second floor, I'm
36:13assuming. Yeah, we never left the floor.
36:14We were still on the third floor. Yeah,
36:16we just had them go sit down and kind of
36:18Yeah.
36:20But it was still fairly taxing. Yeah, so
36:22as team commander, you're wondering
36:23about your operational effectiveness.
36:26Yeah, I when we started to get to a
36:29point where we weren't making a whole
36:30lot of progress with him, and I was
36:32like,
36:34"How how long can you actually stand in
36:36a hallway ready to do a hostage rescue
36:39at any at any moment and
36:42and still be effective as effective as
36:45you should be?" Yeah. And that's why I
36:48went up. I had I was like, "I need to do
36:49a face-to-face with him cuz he's been up
36:51there the whole time."
36:53Uh just to get the you know, like real
36:56world picture of it.
36:58And that's what he told me. So, I was
36:59like, "We got to We got to get started."
37:00We have never done that before. I don't
37:02know if it happened prior to uh
37:05me being on the team. Um
37:08if we have ever
37:09called another team for anything. I
37:11can't think of why we would have. Yeah,
37:14we So, we called We have a neighboring
37:16jurisdiction that we work really well
37:18with. And if there's some sort of
37:19presidential detail, there's a lot of
37:22politicians that come to the county. Um
37:25we'll call them for help, but we've
37:26never given over a scene to anyone. We
37:30have called them to augment us.
37:32Yeah, to help out, but we've never
37:34passed off So, what's the other county
37:36that you called? Well, it's not a
37:38county. So, uh Or the other team? Yeah,
37:41the other team is Westchester Township,
37:43which is in Butler County, which is
37:46neighbors us. So, it's just north of
37:49There's two There's two counties north
37:51of Hamilton County, Butler and Warren.
37:53So, they are just on the other side of
37:55the county in the Butler.
37:57Um we did not call them because they do
38:00not have
38:02explosive breaching capabilities.
38:05Uh so, we pretty quickly all three of us
38:08kind of had the same
38:10idea that this has got to be at least
38:12initiated by explosive breaching.
38:16Um and they don't even
38:18they don't have that capability at all.
38:20So, we ended up calling Hamilton County
38:23Police Association. So, there's
38:25Cincinnati,
38:26and then there's Hamilton County, you
38:28know, the agencies that make up the rest
38:30of the county that's not Cincinnati.
38:32So, they have two teams. Cincinnati has
38:34their own team, and Hamilton County
38:36Police Association has has their own
38:38team. We called them because we knew
38:40they had they had the explosive
38:42breaching capabilities. Sky, you can
38:44tell them how that call went cuz they
38:45used the one to contact.
38:46I got a hold of their commander,
38:49explained the situation. He said,
38:50"Absolutely, we'll come out, but I need
38:52the sheriff to request us." I go,
38:54"Okay." So, I ended up calling our chief
38:57deputy. I said, "Chief, here's what we
38:59got going on.
39:01Um can you make this phone call?" He
39:02said, "Give me a minute." He makes the
39:03phone call.
39:05I call the commander back. He said,
39:06"We're on our way." I said, "All right.
39:09Here's where we are. Stage where you
39:10want. Once you get here, we'll fill you
39:12in." So, it was probably an hour
39:15before they started showing up with
39:17equipment and members. And they
39:20ultimately decided that they were going
39:21to meet
39:23offsite, maybe a couple hundred yards,
39:25and then come in together as a team.
39:29Um just kind of stay away from their our
39:32command post. Sure. So, you you made
39:34call 8:00, 8:30, 9:00? Uh It was around
39:389:00, and they started showing up around
39:41uh
39:42Yeah, mhm.
39:44Yeah, I think that they were I I forget
39:47what time that they
39:49um
39:50we put them or escorted them up.
39:53You guys know? No. It was We got relief
39:56at
39:5711:00
39:58something. So, my
39:59my hope was when Nate and I talked that
40:01we would have relief by 10:00 and it was
40:02almost an hour and a half past that. So,
40:05um like I said, guys have been in place
40:07ready to go since 4:00. It's now about
40:0811:30, I think, or right around there.
40:11Uh when
40:13um the other team was escorted up to the
40:14third floor and started relieving us in
40:16our positions. Yeah, and it was
40:18we didn't
40:20we didn't get ultimately we didn't get
40:21what we wanted because uh their
40:23explosive breachers weren't available.
40:26So, once we put our heads together, the
40:28decision's made.
40:31HCPA will take over.
40:34But, they need Nate and I to stay and
40:36they need our explosive breachers to
40:38stay. Everyone else
40:40take their kits off. We're going to send
40:42them somewhere to get some relief.
40:44Um but we stayed on scene
40:46uh so that they had their own command
40:49post. We had our own command post that
40:51hadn't uh the negotiators inside of it.
40:53So, Nate decides, I'll stay with our
40:56negotiators.
40:58I go into Hamilton County's command post
41:01so that we have a radio channel in
41:03common and we just start feeding each
41:05other information on anything new or
41:07anything that happens.
41:09Uh meanwhile, our
41:11uh team that was in the hotel is moved
41:14uh to a a fire department. Maybe a half
41:18mile, mile down the road. And they
41:20basically take over that fire
41:21department, hit the recliners. I think
41:24they were sleeping on tables, recliners.
41:26Dudes were racked out everywhere.
41:28Sleeping on ping pong tables, eating
41:29pancakes? Yeah. Playing Xbox? Yeah, they
41:33uh Firemen and prostitutes are the only
41:35two get paid for sleeping while they're
41:36Yeah.
41:40So, so
41:42So, like is is this is evolving, right?
41:46Where are we with a tactical solution to
41:48this? Have you already placed charges?
41:49Are you Like have you guys already come
41:51up with what your you know, direct
41:54action plan is going to be if you have
41:55to or deliberate action if you have to?
41:58uh like I said, initially it was just
42:00um
42:00four guys. We got up there, made it real
42:02ad hoc. Like, hey, if this goes right
42:04now before we get other resources in
42:05this, this is what's going to happen. As
42:07guys and resources started kind of
42:08filtering in, um that plan slowly
42:11changed. Um we finally got some uh
42:14explosive breachers uh like they had
42:15already said, um up. Uh we knew from the
42:20Hamilton County detectives uh that he
42:22had barricaded the door with some
42:24furniture.
42:25Uh but while we were up there, we could
42:26hear them moving about inside the room
42:29um using the restroom back and forth.
42:32So, we're like, all right, well, it's
42:33barricaded, but how barricaded is it?
42:36Um so,
42:37my initial fear was if we put an
42:39explosive charge on the door,
42:43it would have to be too big to defeat
42:45all of that barricade, which would put
42:47us too far away from minimum safe
42:49distance. Uh so,
42:52the initial plan uh was to work the door
42:56with a breaching shotgun
42:59and follow it up with a ram if need be.
43:01Uh and then we had two uh water charges,
43:04uh one placed in um
43:07the adjoining room on the right and one
43:09in a common bathroom wall uh to the room
43:11on the left. And once that was in place,
43:14I'm going to say all of that
43:16with the breachers and everything in
43:18place was probably about 5:30, maybe
43:206:00. And that's how we kind of hung out
43:22until relief at about 11:30 with that
43:24kind of being like, this is it. Um if
43:27we're going to do a deliberate
43:28or an emergency entry, it's all going to
43:30go on the same.
43:32Got it. But, your breachers are going to
43:33be the ones that that initiate the
43:35charge and then their team will make the
43:36entry. Yep. Yes. And you had not you
43:39guys had not trained with these guys
43:40previously.
43:42They they did tell us right off the rip.
43:44They said,
43:45we will go in if we have to go in, if he
43:48starts to harm her. But, other than
43:49that, it's up to you.
43:51Yeah. You know, we're going to sit out
43:52here, get you guys the rest that you
43:54need. But, if you guys decide to go in,
43:56and I respect that. I mean, that was
43:58Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's not their
43:59problem, right? It's their their doing
44:01you a favor, it's not their problem. If
44:03you're going to make a deliberate
44:04assault, then it is your problem. Like,
44:06yeah, he starts stabbing her or
44:07something, it's
44:08then they're going to move.
44:10Seems like a reasonable position. Yeah,
44:11absolutely.
44:13So, what what happens next?
44:16What's the next step here
44:18forward? Uh so,
44:23he posts a Facebook live video.
45:37Um
45:39Like like uh Scott said,
45:42we had
45:43we had pretty much established that she
45:45was not in there under her own free will
45:47just by the phone calls we were having.
45:50Uh and
45:52stuff he was saying, yelling at the
45:54officers that were in the hallway. He
45:55knew that they were out there.
45:57Uh but he posted a Facebook live video
46:00uh just talking gibberish. Like, none of
46:02it makes sense. Uh just
46:04he's high. Yeah, he's smoking meth. I
46:06mean, you know, I mean, right? Yeah. And
46:08he uh he keeps walking around with like
46:11this
46:12big folding knife. I
46:14I have no idea where he got it.
46:16Uh we were operating the whole entire
46:18time that he had a gun and a knife.
46:20Uh we had already seen the knife through
46:22the window initially. There were several
46:23phone calls where he said that he's
46:25going to shoot whoever comes in. Yeah.
46:27We had talked to his mom. His mom
46:29relayed to us, I don't know if she said,
46:31I don't know if he had time to get a
46:32gun, but if he did, he'll shoot you if
46:34you go in there. Yes, okay, fair enough.
46:36That's his mom that told us that. So, we
46:37we thought that was pretty good. Yeah, I
46:39mean, I'm going to call when your mom
46:40says you're willing to shoot cops. I
46:41mean, I would call that a credible
46:43source. Yeah. So, he just he just walked
46:45around um in the hotel room and uh he
46:49shoved the knife up to her face and
46:51underneath her throat. And This is on
46:52the Facebook live video. On the live
46:54video.
46:55And that was really the first time we
46:56saw any kind of escalating behavior. And
46:59I as soon as I saw it, I was in like he
47:01said, we were split up. As soon as I saw
47:03it, I was like,
47:05there it is. Here we go. Yeah. So, then
47:07I had pretty much checked every box we
47:09needed check. Yeah. Yeah.
47:11Yeah, cuz at that point and what what
47:12was her demeanor in the video as he's
47:16posting?
47:17was scared to death. He he was saying, I
47:20I think that you guys He's talking to us
47:21saying, I think you think this is funny.
47:23He puts the knife up to her throat and
47:25says, do you think this is funny?
47:27And scared to death. Yeah.
47:31He he made the comment that we thought
47:33he was just joking around. Yeah. He's
47:35like, I'm not joking around.
47:37Okay, well, we're taking you seriously
47:39now. Yeah.
47:41It was not a good That was not a good
47:42strategy on his part.
47:44So, let's let's set up then. Now now
47:46we're you're at a point where you're
47:48like, okay,
47:49we need to intervene.
47:51Yes.
47:51But, your team is is
47:53on recliners at the fire station. And
47:56the guys that currently have the problem
47:57will not do a deliberate intervention.
47:59Correct. So,
48:01it's wake up time. Yes. So, I
48:05I mean, me and Scott watched the video
48:07together. I I I will left ours and
48:09whatever talked to him. We weren't that
48:11far away. Just right next to each other.
48:14And uh he relayed the information to
48:16them to let them know like what we had
48:18just seen. And that's why I called him
48:20on the phone.
48:22Like It was not a pleasant conversation.
48:24Oh, yeah. Hey, I know you just fell
48:25asleep, but And this is this is 2:00 in
48:28the morning. 2:00. Okay, so it's They
48:30got relief. It's been a couple hours.
48:32hours. Yeah. Uh I think we finally left
48:34the scene about midnight. Uh some guys
48:37stopped at the gas station, got some
48:38water, some Gatorade. A lot of guys just
48:40went straight to the uh fire house. Uh
48:42dudes started taking over any flat
48:44surface they could. Couches, recliners,
48:46tables, the whole thing. Um everybody's
48:49kicking off boots, everybody dropped
48:51gear. Um I'm sprawled out in a recliner
48:54with no boots on. I got my phone on my
48:56chest.
48:57And I'm out and about an hour and a half
49:00after I fall asleep. So, right around
49:022:00. Right about the happy part of
49:04sleep.
49:05Nate calls.
49:06Uh so, I pick it up and he says, hey
49:08man, we're going to go ahead with this
49:09deliberate entry. I don't recall if he
49:11told me about the Facebook live video at
49:13the time. It didn't really matter to me.
49:15He just said, hey, we're going to go
49:16with the deliberate. I need you to get
49:17everybody up and get back.
49:19Um
49:20So, I said, roger that.
49:22Uh started getting everybody up.
49:23Uh I think we arrived back on scene
49:26maybe about like 2:05. And like I said,
49:29we're only maybe half mile away-ish.
49:31Um
49:33Everybody was back, ready to go in kit,
49:36on scene 2:05. I think we escorted
49:39We had a little powwow outside.
49:43Went over the plan again, made sure
49:44everybody knew
49:46what the plan was.
49:48Everybody was good with the countdown,
49:50what was going off on when.
49:52Um everybody said they were good.
49:55We went back up, relieved Hamilton
49:56County's team,
49:58uh had them all the way out the
50:00building.
50:01I think there was some discussion
50:02between them cuz they wanted to kind of
50:03stay in and hang out and see if Yeah,
50:05there was
50:06they didn't want to leave. They're like,
50:08"No, we'll stay here, we'll help."
50:10And Nate ultimately says, "Listen,
50:12if
50:13if we have to if this turns into an
50:15officer-involved shooting, we don't need
50:17two teams taken out of service.
50:20Right? I need you all I need you all to
50:22go outside
50:23smart move.
50:23so that you can help us out if we're
50:25taken out of service."
50:26Yeah, that's a really smart move. Rather
50:28rather than compromise the entire
50:29tactical capability of both teams if one
50:32team's going to move
50:33Yeah, and it
50:34the other team clean and
50:35sanitized. Yeah, it was interesting cuz
50:36they all walked out at the same time and
50:38they walked over to me and they said,
50:40"Will we hear this countdown on your
50:42radio?" I said, "You will." And they
50:43said, "Okay, we're ready." We should
50:46probably mention what happened during
50:47our meeting in the parking lot.
50:50Yeah, um so
50:51the pursuit and all that. We we've got
50:54this big powwow and I and I say this
50:56during our presentations that we give.
50:58You know, this has been rehearsed I
51:00don't know how many times. Every person
51:01knows exactly what they're going to do
51:03over and over and over again and as the
51:05night went through.
51:07Um Are you guys practicing on an
51:08adjoining room or something?
51:10No, we didn't have enough people to kind
51:12of cycle guys in and out where we were
51:13doing
51:15um kind of mock-ups and stuff, but uh
51:17since we had access to
51:19every room on the whole floor, everybody
51:21knew the layout, we knew kind of what we
51:23were doing.
51:24Uh we talked about it. I mean, just
51:26really like, "Hey, you know, this is
51:28what's going to happen. This is what's
51:29going to happen." The suspect's in 310,
51:31we own 308 and 312. So, those guys that
51:35are in 308 are repping what they're
51:36going to do. I charge is going to go
51:38off, we're going to do this NFDD.
51:41Um
51:42so we cover that and just the look on
51:44their face everybody knew
51:46what this meant
51:48because just the tone in Daddy's voice
51:50when he said, "You all understand what
51:51we're getting ready to do.
51:53You know your job, go do it."
51:56At the same time that he's doing that,
51:58there's sirens going everywhere.
52:01The second escapee drives up,
52:04gets in a pursuit
52:06as this is all going on.
52:08So, we hear this pursuit kicking around
52:12the road right in front of us
52:14and it's the second su- We didn't know
52:16it at the time, but it's the second
52:17suspect.
52:18So, He's He's with troopers, they're
52:20going the wrong way down the
52:22Interstate 75 like
52:2571? 71, sorry. Yeah, nice. And uh so,
52:29they take care of that. Uh it's game
52:32time for us.
52:33Uh so, everybody goes up, gets in
52:36position, Hamilton County comes out.
52:38So, we
52:40if I'm understanding correctly, you're
52:41in two adjoining rooms. Yes.
52:44You've got breaching charges on the
52:45wall, let's say 310 is it 308 and 312,
52:49yep. So, 308 you've got a wall charge.
52:52Yeah, it was deep in the room close to
52:54the front of the building, so kind of
52:56towards the the windows like the
52:58exterior window.
52:59We had a wall charge on 308. Um there
53:02was some discussion since we'd had uh
53:04two breachers finally show up on scene
53:07uh about where to put this second
53:09charge.
53:11Um
53:12During the initial way earlier in the
53:13night, I'd gone down and had a
53:14face-to-face with them about, "Hey, this
53:16is kind of my plan, this is what I want
53:17to do." Uh they had kind of drawn up
53:19almost the exact same thing between the
53:21two of them, so all three of us were on
53:24uh the same page.
53:25Uh there was some discussion about what
53:27to do with the second charge. I
53:29originally just wanted another
53:31uh wall charge.
53:32Um
53:34There's some debate between uh the other
53:36team leader Joe Gray and Scott about
53:38whose idea it was. Uh I don't recall,
53:40there was a lot going on that night.
53:42100%. He's not here, it was mine.
53:43So, if it if it worked, it was Scott's.
53:46Yeah.
53:46Uh so, the the second charge uh we ended
53:50up putting into
53:52um the wet wall in between the bathroom
53:55in 312.
53:57So, like the toilet pipes. Yeah, yeah,
53:59exactly. The toilet to 310 backed up to
54:01the toilet The toilet's about to come
54:03into play. And the
54:05the thought there was, well, if we start
54:07this entry and we can't get through the
54:08door and he takes her and then
54:10barricades into the bathroom, we're back
54:12to square one, right? So,
54:15um the thought being like, "Okay, well,
54:16let's put a charge on there.
54:18If he does pull it in there, at least
54:19we've denied him access. We got guys
54:21there that can deal with that problem."
54:23Uh so, ultimately that's what we did and
54:25like I said, those charges had been in
54:26place for hours. And these charges the
54:28intent is to port the wall.
54:30Correct. Not not to make an entry, but
54:32to make a port.
54:33a gun port, yeah. Yeah, it's Yeah.
54:36For those viewers that know, it's a 300
54:38grain water charge, so it's 300 grains
54:40of detcord attached to an IV bag taped
54:43up, placed against the wall with a prop
54:45stick.
54:46Uh that's the charge. We know that we're
54:48going to push that IV bag through the
54:51drywall
54:52and it's going to give us a port. Got
54:53it. So, we're making ports deep in the
54:55room and in the bathroom. Correct.
54:58And then are we also trying to make
55:00entry in the primary door?
55:03um the
55:05plan was
55:06to have we had one dude on a breaching
55:09shotgun and a guy right behind him with
55:11a ram. Uh so,
55:14start working the problem on the door
55:16with the breaching shotgun. If that
55:18doesn't pop it right away, dude with the
55:19ram can start following it up.
55:21Inward swinging door? Yep.
55:22Um
55:24So, the two dudes in the stack uh at the
55:27very beginning, both breachers and then
55:28the assault team, which is four guys, uh
55:31were stacked up right behind them in the
55:32hallway.
55:33Uh so, after we relieved uh HCPA,
55:37everybody just filed back into their
55:38exact same spots that we had been 2
55:40hours previous.
55:41Um Nate and uh the negotiator Adam had
55:46had a conversation
55:48uh where I think Adam relayed to him
55:50like, "Hey man, I got him. He picks up
55:52every time I call."
55:54Uh so, one of the things that we want
55:55from our negotiators for our hostage
55:57rescue is can they push this intel?
56:00Uh can they manipulate the target around
56:01the room and can they cause a
56:03distraction if need be for our initial
56:05assault. Uh and with Adam saying like,
56:08"Yeah, we can he's picking up every
56:10time."
56:12Um
56:13that was kind of the basis for our
56:15kickoff. Uh so,
56:18Nate was going to have Adam call him
56:21once we were on,
56:22relay to me, he's got him on the phone
56:25and that was going to kick down uh kick
56:27off the count.
56:28Got it.
56:29Yeah, he had ultimately
56:31asked for his first thing that he
56:32wanted.
56:34He said uh when Adam talked to him, he
56:36said,
56:37"I want to get this dog out of here so
56:39he can go to the bathroom.
56:40I want a pack of Newports and a
56:42cheeseburger.
56:44If we can get that,
56:46he said, "If you can give me my Newports
56:48and a cheeseburger, I'll release the
56:49dog."
56:50Of course said, "Okay, fair enough.
56:53We'll do it."
56:54Back bring the dog out to the door?
56:55Yeah, and the thinking is somebody's
56:57going to be separated from the other
56:59person as they're letting this dog out
57:00the door.
57:03So, we
57:04we did talk a little bit uh
57:07me and Adam cuz he we had a lot of like
57:09260 phone calls.
57:11Some of them lasted like two or three
57:12seconds. So, I was a little worried it
57:15was going to be like one of those.
57:17So, I said, "When you tell me you have
57:20them, I'm going to count to 10 and then
57:22I'm going to relay to Daddy up there
57:24that he's good to start the countdown
57:25for the explosive charges."
57:28Got it. That's That's how that was. Is
57:30the negotiator just promising him
57:31anything he wants to keep him on the
57:33phone? Pretty much. He He He told him
57:35the dog warden was out there, he told
57:36him that we had a had a big crate for
57:38the dog and that we had cheeseburgers,
57:40Newports. He's just making, you know,
57:42Yeah, just stand up there.
57:43Being extremely agreeable
57:45Yeah, being extremely agreeable with him
57:46saying that we have everything you're
57:48asking for, ready to do it. So, I'm
57:50while I'm counting and then telling him
57:53and then he starts to count down.
57:55you are you are going to bring him
57:56something. Yes. Okay, so here we go.
58:00Yeah. He counts to 10.
58:02Nate relays relays to me on the radio
58:04that they got him on.
58:05Um again, we had talked about what the
58:07count was going to be. It was going to
58:09be an eight count starting at eight, had
58:11five.
58:12Uh the shotgun breach was going to start
58:14working the door problem. Uh at three,
58:17both wall charges go off. Um
58:20thinking that that would be enough time
58:23uh with the port charge going off after
58:26uh the breaching work on the door that
58:29that's going to divide his attention or
58:31that's going to be the last thing he
58:32hears, so he's going to start and turn
58:33towards where those breaching charges
58:35are as the assault team's kind of coming
58:37through the front door. Um
58:40So, Nate gives me the the go.
58:43Uh we started an eight count. And I got
58:45to five,
58:47breachers start hitting it. Um
58:51I think he put two or three rounds
58:53through the breaching shotgun into the
58:54door. Ultimately, it did not pop like we
58:56wanted it to.
58:58Uh so, the guy with the ram starts
58:59working it. Uh hit it
59:02twice. First one put a hole in the door.
59:05I mean, went right through it.
59:07Um
59:08I
59:08it Of course it did.
59:09Yep.
59:10Uh
59:10I get to three, both wall charges hit uh
59:13just like they should.
59:15Um we had originally wanted
59:18uh a flashbang through the wall port in
59:21308 kind of following that up, so as
59:23he's turning, bang comes in, pops
59:25uh as the assault team's kind of coming
59:26through.
59:27Um
59:32So, breachers start working the door,
59:34gets open. There was some barricade
59:36there. Uh he had put um
59:40the coffee table and a recliner chair
59:42and then like uh the mini fridge was
59:45kind of stacked up against it. They
59:46ended up pushing through that.
59:48Um
59:50first operator through, they start kind
59:52of pining off on him, uh him and the
59:54second guy. Uh
59:56suspect is on a couch uh with the uh
1:00:00hostage, Kelly.
1:00:01Grabs her up, uh puts a knife to her
1:00:03throat uh as he starts hearing something
1:00:07going on in the wall charge behind him,
1:00:09kind of turns his head like that. Uh and
1:00:12uh the operator, Chris, uh took the
1:00:14shot, ended up hitting him right in the
1:00:15face.
1:00:16So, this is the the the guy that's going
1:00:18to actually shoot him is the first first
1:00:20or second guy in through the main door.
1:00:23guy, yeah. Uh gets a uh solution and and
1:00:26fires one round.
1:00:28One round.
1:00:29Took care of the problem immediately. Uh
1:00:31ended up hitting him uh just above his
1:00:33lip, under his nose.
1:00:34Uh dropped him immediately.
1:00:37Um he had her wrapped up uh so they kind
1:00:40of fall.
1:00:41Um she springs up fairly quick.
1:00:44The next couple of guys in grab her up,
1:00:47start escorting her out. Uh they zip
1:00:49tied him.
1:00:51And then that was kind of it. So, uh
1:00:53from uh breach to bang was uh just under
1:00:5620 seconds.
1:00:59That's fantastic work. I mean, one round
1:01:02fired, effective. Yeah. Yeah.
1:01:05Yeah. I mean, that's that's about as
1:01:07well as it can be done. Uh
1:01:09do we ever find out like the how how
1:01:11does how does this girl end up with this
1:01:13dirtbag? Like is there
1:01:15does she is she just she just dumb
1:01:17enough? I think poor life choice.
1:01:19Okay.
1:01:19Yeah. That That's a good way to put it.
1:01:21Yeah, I mean,
1:01:22generally speaking, if you're
1:01:23in a hotel room with an escaped inmate,
1:01:27you've made some poor choices.
1:01:30Yeah.
1:01:31But in this case, it's probably a series
1:01:33of poor life choices.
1:01:35It made that make sense to her.
1:01:37So, I mean, is this is the first HRT you
1:01:41guys have done? Yes. Yes. In this to the
1:01:43scene?
1:01:45Yes.
1:01:45Yeah, legitimate hostage rescue. That
1:01:47was uh the first. Um we've had other
1:01:49ones that were like kind of came out as
1:01:51a hostage rescue.
1:01:52Like a family member or something like
1:01:53that where But ended up really not a
1:01:55captive. Yeah. Uh we've had a couple of
1:01:58them end in suicides by the suspect. So,
1:02:01yeah, it didn't it it we don't count
1:02:02those as a hostage rescue.
1:02:04Yeah. And it wasn't
1:02:05the hostage even if you talked the guy
1:02:06into killing himself? When Nate had
1:02:08taken over,
1:02:10he
1:02:11we felt like that that was the biggest
1:02:14hole in our game.
1:02:16Yeah. We didn't have anyone around us
1:02:19that taught hostage rescue. You know,
1:02:21somebody had learned something from
1:02:23another person.
1:02:25There just wasn't anything in Ohio that
1:02:27we were comfortable
1:02:29with saying this is the way we're going
1:02:30to do it. And Doughty can share on it.
1:02:33He did some research and found a place
1:02:36in North Carolina.
1:02:38Sent him down there
1:02:40and we wrapped it every training. We
1:02:42start off every training doing something
1:02:44hostage rescue.
1:02:46And uh
1:02:48we nailed it. I mean, I Oh, yeah, you
1:02:49nailed it.
1:02:51So, I mean, that's
1:02:52that's a
1:02:55I mean, that you know, hostage rescue is
1:02:57certainly the Super Bowl of the tactical
1:02:59world and this is a pretty high-risk
1:03:01operation. What was talk to me about
1:03:03like what, you know, as as you're coming
1:03:05in, you're like, "Hey, we need to have
1:03:06this capability." You go to North
1:03:08Carolina. What what is your kind of
1:03:10lessons learned? Yeah. so, that
1:03:13conversation between Nate and I had
1:03:14actually happened years before he had
1:03:16actually taken over. Um
1:03:19But we kind of knew like like Scott
1:03:21said, that was the hole in our game
1:03:23where we were kind of like, "Oh, okay,
1:03:24we'll do it kind of like this and that."
1:03:27Um we just weren't comfortable with
1:03:29where we were at. So, uh
1:03:32ultimately, I ended up I think it was
1:03:332019 down at an intro to hostage rescue
1:03:36class in High Point, North Carolina by a
1:03:38company called Esoteric.
1:03:40Uh phenomenal class. Um brought those
1:03:43lessons back.
1:03:44Um and it was just, you know, stuff how
1:03:47do we posture on the door for a hostage
1:03:49rescue,
1:03:50uh importance of those countdown timing
1:03:53between
1:03:54uh your breach and those port explosive
1:03:57distraction charges, all that kind of
1:03:59stuff. Um so, I brought those back
1:04:03um
1:04:04under the old commander, we started
1:04:06doing that as our hostage rescue
1:04:08training. Uh when Nate took over, um
1:04:11we started doing HR stuff every
1:04:14training, at least for a little bit. If
1:04:15it wasn't a day dedicated hostage rescue
1:04:17day,
1:04:18uh it was a portion of that training
1:04:20that morning. Um
1:04:22so, we'd been wrapping it pretty good
1:04:24for a while. Uh the problem was we had
1:04:26had I want to say like nine new guys
1:04:28start in May. This happened in July.
1:04:31They'd only had
1:04:33a handful of trainings and several of
1:04:35those guys were on scene. So,
1:04:37um
1:04:38limited resources about guys that we
1:04:40could actually feel like
1:04:42handle a deliberate entry um
1:04:45of that magnitude
1:04:47while also using the resources we had,
1:04:49being those new guys. All right, so what
1:04:50jobs can we give them that are not
1:04:52uh actually going into the room.
1:04:55Um
1:04:55So, kind of playing those out as the
1:04:57night went along was kind of a
1:05:00interesting task.
1:05:02Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, it's
1:05:05that's a scary op.
1:05:06Yeah.
1:05:07For sure.
1:05:08Um let's let's kind of go through some
1:05:10lessons learned. So, like Nate, what
1:05:12let's start with the good stuff. Yeah.
1:05:14What what
1:05:16I mean, obviously a lot went well here.
1:05:18But what what are the particular lessons
1:05:20learned for the team
1:05:22from the positive nature?
1:05:24Positive nature is prior to this, we had
1:05:27only used explosive breaching once
1:05:29operationally. Wow. We had done I mean,
1:05:32we have done
1:05:33multiple trainings with it.
1:05:35Yeah.
1:05:36Uh in the previous
1:05:39the previous mission that we did it on
1:05:41this
1:05:43was 3 days prior.
1:05:45So, Wow.
1:05:46our very first operational explosive
1:05:47breaching was 3 days prior to this. It
1:05:49was one
1:05:51door breach, exterior.
1:05:54That's On a search
1:05:56warrant. On a search warrant.
1:05:57Operationally, that is all we had done
1:05:59prior to this night. And that was 72
1:06:02hours before that.
1:06:04So,
1:06:06I think
1:06:06So, so I mean, you're doing your second
1:06:10explosive breach ever Yeah.
1:06:12and your first hostage rescue ever. Yes.
1:06:15Oh, yeah, you you were probably in
1:06:17pucker factor 25 as the commander of
1:06:19this thing.
1:06:22It went just like we planned. It really
1:06:24did. It really it really did.
1:06:25It did. But I'm going to guess Nate's
1:06:27blood pressure was probably about 250
1:06:29over 100.
1:06:32It
1:06:33the the biggest positive I think we got
1:06:34out of it is
1:06:37what we are doing in training is exactly
1:06:41what we need to be doing in training.
1:06:42Yeah. Does that Does that make sense?
1:06:43Yeah, totally. Uh cuz like he said, we
1:06:47we had trouble finding
1:06:49that piece anywhere near us.
1:06:52Um and we
1:06:54we took that as what we were going to
1:06:56do. We adopted it 100%
1:06:58and uh
1:07:01we made it happen train in in the
1:07:02training side of things uh till we, you
1:07:05know, so till everybody was comfortable
1:07:07with it. And I guess you don't know if
1:07:10you're doing something correctly until
1:07:12you really have to do it uh in real
1:07:14life. And that was that's the for me is
1:07:17the biggest takeaway from it.
1:07:19Positively. Yeah, cuz I mean, this is
1:07:20this is, you know, this could have been
1:07:21the end of your explosive breaching
1:07:22program.
1:07:23Absolutely. It could have been the end
1:07:24of a lot of things. You guys are all in
1:07:26on this. And and you there has to be a
1:07:28first, but a hostage rescue hotel room
1:07:30is a that's a that's a pretty Yeah.
1:07:33Yeah.
1:07:33Yeah, we haven't done We couldn't find
1:07:35any research. It still we really haven't
1:07:38of another team that has done
1:07:41a
1:07:42simultaneous
1:07:44double breach while doing a shotgun
1:07:46breach
1:07:47interior.
1:07:49We haven't found it. I'm not saying it's
1:07:51not out there. And there there some of
1:07:53the full-time names have certainly for
1:07:55sure, but not in Ohio. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
1:07:57Yeah, so we we were like, I don't
1:08:00I don't even know. Yeah, yeah. It This
1:08:03This This is what makes the most sense.
1:08:05Yeah. We um
1:08:08So, previous commander
1:08:10did an amazing job of getting us from
1:08:12point A to point B.
1:08:14Um
1:08:16I felt like
1:08:19policy board, you know, did they did
1:08:21they believe in us?
1:08:22And I was worried that they didn't.
1:08:24Yeah. Um
1:08:26Once this happened,
1:08:28I mean, it was it was almost like a
1:08:31light clicked. And
1:08:33um I mean, they've always been
1:08:35supportive of us, but now it's like
1:08:38these guys know what they're doing.
1:08:39Yeah, oh yeah.
1:08:40You know, and that's
1:08:41cuz I don't know that we knew.
1:08:44I don't know that we had the confidence.
1:08:47They did.
1:08:47But we did after this. Yeah.
1:08:49But we did after this. And it was to,
1:08:52you know, put his future job on the
1:08:54line. And it's
1:08:55um you know, when we go to the policy
1:08:58board now and ask for something, they
1:09:00know that it's legit. We're not going to
1:09:02them for something pedaly or something
1:09:04crazy. You know, these are things that
1:09:07we need and uh
1:09:09just super supportive of us now. What
1:09:11What was your training op tempo like?
1:09:13How often do you guys get to train?
1:09:16You know, as as as a collateral duty
1:09:18regional team, how often are you getting
1:09:20together to train, you know, a month, a
1:09:23year? What What does that look like for
1:09:25you guys?
1:09:25It's
1:09:26it's like a lot of
1:09:28part-time teams. Uh we kind of go off of
1:09:31like the national standard of twice a
1:09:33month,
1:09:34solid week in the summer or
1:09:36you know, at some point during the year.
1:09:38Um and that's what we've gone off of for
1:09:41a long time. You say the national
1:09:43standards, you mean the NTOA's
1:09:45guidelines? Yeah.
1:09:47Ye- I wouldn't say that we follow the
1:09:49NTOA NTOA guidelines 100% then.
1:09:54Uh
1:09:54but we had been on that kind of training
1:09:56schedule for ever since I started, so.
1:09:59How long have you guys been training
1:10:01with explosive breaching?
1:10:03We had the capability what, 3 years
1:10:05prior to that? Yeah.
1:10:07I mean, we we
1:10:08burned through a couple spools of det
1:10:10cord just training-wise.
1:10:12And it ultimately
1:10:14um
1:10:15you know,
1:10:16my concern was
1:10:18that the breachers weren't confident.
1:10:20They did not exude confidence when I
1:10:23say, "All right, what are we doing?"
1:10:25And they said, "It should."
1:10:27"Should this should happen." I was like,
1:10:28"I don't need should."
1:10:30And it took us a while to build up to
1:10:32that, but
1:10:34I got all the faith in them now. I mean,
1:10:36everything they say is to a T. I mean,
1:10:38they've got it down to a science now.
1:10:40Yeah, I mean, it's one thing to say,
1:10:41"Could you shoot an apple at 100 yards?"
1:10:43It's a different thing to say, "Would
1:10:44you put it on your daughter's head and
1:10:45do it?"
1:10:46Yeah. Right? Like you the the risk of a
1:10:48training op versus a live hostage
1:10:50rescue, obviously. Yeah. Is certainly
1:10:53going to
1:10:55make the tummy shake a little bit. Sure,
1:10:57right? What else from a positive
1:10:59standpoint, Nate? What else What else is
1:11:01there that if if
1:11:03You know, cuz I think it's I think it's
1:11:04easy living in LA Mhm. where I have two
1:11:07full-time SWAT teams that are two of the
1:11:08top teams in the world
1:11:11less than an hour from me, right? And
1:11:13probably 20 other
1:11:15municipal teams. It's very easy to go,
1:11:17"Oh, well, you know, you call the
1:11:18sheriff so you call, you know,
1:11:20This is rural Ohio, right? Like she's
1:11:23screwed if you're not there. Like let's
1:11:26just call it what it is. She He's
1:11:28probably going to at some point rape her
1:11:29and kill her. Yes. So, you know, it's
1:11:33I think it's easy to look and go, "Wow,
1:11:34that you know, that was a risky move."
1:11:36But at some point
1:11:39you have to make the move, right? Like
1:11:40there there isn't an alternative here. I
1:11:42I understand you saying it's a risky
1:11:45move.
1:11:46Um I've also never come from the world
1:11:49of
1:11:50LA. Yeah. You know, so I don't have that
1:11:53perspective on law enforcement. I have
1:11:55that perspective on life. Yeah. Uh so,
1:11:58for me it was actually pretty easy. I
1:12:01I knew I knew what we had. I knew me and
1:12:04Scott agreed on what we had.
1:12:06And I
1:12:08knew that I could trust him. And and the
1:12:11other guys up there.
1:12:12And I also knew that we were it, you
1:12:14know? There's
1:12:16nobody else.
1:12:16yeah, and the the thing is like it is it
1:12:18is easy
1:12:20to to look at these situations and go,
1:12:23"Oh, well, you know, just call somebody
1:12:24else." There There isn't somebody else.
1:12:26No, that's not This is This is your
1:12:28problem Yeah. to resolve. So,
1:12:32and yeah, I mean, you guys have trained
1:12:33for it, you're prepared for it.
1:12:35You've done the research.
1:12:38Yeah. And it And obviously
1:12:40pans out, right? Yep. What from from a
1:12:44you know, I don't want to use the word
1:12:45negative standpoint, but like
1:12:48any op like this
1:12:50even a successful one, you can look back
1:12:51and go, "We should have
1:12:54or if I did it again,
1:12:56here's what I would change." What is
1:12:58What is Scott's like, "Hey man, Yeah, we
1:13:00we've got a lot of lessons that that led
1:13:02up this. You know, that charge we set
1:13:04off 3 days before, we were on our way
1:13:07back from that
1:13:08and the fuel pump goes out in their
1:13:10command vehicle. I mean, it's a new
1:13:11vehicle, it's in great condition, fuel
1:13:14pump just goes out.
1:13:16So, we have to offload all the equipment
1:13:18off of it, have it towed to our county
1:13:19garage.
1:13:21Uh it's at the county garage, all of our
1:13:23equipment's back at our SWAT house.
1:13:26Page goes out
1:13:28for this hostage rescue. Negotiator
1:13:30says,
1:13:31"I'll get the command vehicle." So, it's
1:13:32at the garage. He shows up with the
1:13:34command vehicle, no equipment in it.
1:13:37Nothing. Yeah, cuz the gear is in the
1:13:38SWAT house. Yeah, it's in the SWAT
1:13:39house. He brought the truck. He brought
1:13:40the truck. Which was nice of him.
1:13:43Absolutely.
1:13:43But it would've been better for them
1:13:44It was so, there were some shuttling
1:13:47that we got to send some people back,
1:13:49get all the equipment, come back.
1:13:51You know, we we joke about it now, but
1:13:54we had one prop stick, a one-by-one prop
1:13:57stick that we propped the charge up
1:13:59in 308.
1:14:02We didn't have another one. So, we had
1:14:03to cut a branch off a tree
1:14:05in the parking lot of the hotel Southern
1:14:08engineering. as a second prop stick
1:14:11uh for the charge.
1:14:12Um
1:14:15What are some other lessons?
1:14:17Uh breachers and the initiators.
1:14:19Yeah, the
1:14:21two of our three breachers had an
1:14:24initiator, but they kept it with them.
1:14:27One of those was on vacation.
1:14:29So, our first breacher that showed up
1:14:32didn't have an initiator. Ooh.
1:14:35So, they're like, "Man, that's not going
1:14:36to work." So, we ultimately called
1:14:37Hamilton County's bomb squad and said,
1:14:39"Hey, we need some help. We need this."
1:14:41And he was quick to do it. He said,
1:14:42"I'll be up there in a minute." He He
1:14:44ran that up to us.
1:14:46Um
1:14:48What else? I'm drawing a blank. I know
1:14:50there's Yeah, working out or training
1:14:53with the adjoining teams that
1:14:56that you know, ultimately relieved us.
1:14:57We had done no training with those guys
1:14:59other than the knowledge that they had
1:15:01the capability that we needed them to
1:15:03have. Um
1:15:05We'd never practiced handoffs before. Uh
1:15:08certainly not with HCPA.
1:15:11Um
1:15:11How is that changed now?
1:15:16Um some. They the the commander then,
1:15:20they've had some changes. So, things
1:15:22that we had planned in the past, we have
1:15:24a good
1:15:26working
1:15:28um
1:15:28I guess network within now. Training
1:15:31hasn't happened yet.
1:15:32Uh but I at least I know who to call and
1:15:34I and I
1:15:36and we just haven't gotten back to them.
1:15:38Yeah. So, they they as soon as this it
1:15:41wasn't even a year after this, they had
1:15:43a whole entire
1:15:45complete change of lots of things.
1:15:48Um so,
1:15:51we still have that that connection and
1:15:53the communication now uh with them. We
1:15:55do have a radio channel that we can
1:15:57switch to with them now so that we can
1:15:59have contact back and forth.
1:16:01I think one of the the biggest lessons
1:16:04um so,
1:16:06like Nate had said before,
1:16:08it's
1:16:09up to that police agency that calls us
1:16:12what happens, right? So, there was a
1:16:14homicide that just occurred
1:16:16in that hotel.
1:16:18We have to go to that chief and say,
1:16:22"Okay,
1:16:24there's an officer-involved shooting,
1:16:25who's investigating this?
1:16:27Are you going to investigate it
1:16:29or are you going to call someone else?"
1:16:31And ultimately that chief has a couple
1:16:33decisions.
1:16:35The sheriff's office could investigate
1:16:36it. We've investigated officer-involved
1:16:37shootings before.
1:16:39Or they could turn it over to um
1:16:42an investigative unit inside of Ohio
1:16:44called the Bureau of Criminal
1:16:45Investigations. They have a shoot team.
1:16:47So, any if there's an officer-involved
1:16:48shooting,
1:16:49they can call BCI
1:16:51uh to come handle that shooting from
1:16:53start to finish.
1:16:54Yeah, so that gives you an objective
1:16:55there cuz in this case, no one in the
1:16:57county is objective, you know, objective
1:17:00cuz Absolutely. That argument could be
1:17:02made. Absolutely.
1:17:03has guys on the team. Absolutely.
1:17:05So.
1:17:06So, ultimately the decisions made, we're
1:17:08going to have BCI do this investigation.
1:17:11So, from there it was, "What are we
1:17:14doing with our guys?"
1:17:16We had had an officer-involved shooting
1:17:17on the team
1:17:19previous, so we knew where we were going
1:17:21to go. We knew what we were going to do.
1:17:24We didn't know, "Can we take our trucks
1:17:26out of the crime scene?" We didn't use
1:17:27them,
1:17:28but we can load our guys up in our armor
1:17:30cars, head back to our drug task force,
1:17:33spread out, start to decompress.
1:17:36Um
1:17:38but we didn't know what BCI wanted. So,
1:17:41we had told
1:17:43the chief at the time, we said, "Hey,
1:17:46can we get our trucks out of here?" He
1:17:47said, "I don't know. I'll have to make
1:17:49that call." So, there was a long delay
1:17:52in us waiting in the parking lot.
1:17:56Mind you, the crowd knows something
1:17:59happened, right? You have a bunch of
1:18:01SWAT guys go in, a bunch of SWAT guys
1:18:03come out.
1:18:05More SWAT guys come out. So, our our
1:18:08biggest takeaway, our negative takeaway
1:18:10was
1:18:12it shouldn't have mattered what BCI
1:18:13said, we should have got our team out of
1:18:15there. Cuz ultimately what ended up
1:18:17happening,
1:18:18they make notification to mom as we're
1:18:20standing in the parking lot. Oh god.
1:18:23And chaos ensues.
1:18:26Screaming, crying,
1:18:28people flopping on cars, flopping on the
1:18:30ground.
1:18:32Uh we had went to HCPA and said, "Hey,
1:18:34listen, we're going to need some help
1:18:35here. If if something kicks off with
1:18:38this crowd, I need your help." And they
1:18:39were 100%. They said, "We got you." And
1:18:42they took over this kind of a perimeter
1:18:44around uh our SWAT trucks.
1:18:47Ultimately got the okay
1:18:50um
1:18:51from BCI, said, "Absolutely. Take your
1:18:53trucks, get your people out of there.
1:18:55Leave any equipment that was pertinent
1:18:58to this." Sure. Fair enough. That was
1:19:00left in place.
1:19:01So, we headed back uh ended up making a
1:19:04phone call to the chief deputy
1:19:06and said,
1:19:08uh we had used deadly force. Uh we're
1:19:10going to officer-involved shooting.
1:19:11Everybody but the suspect's okay. I need
1:19:13a spot. He said, "Head to the task
1:19:15force."
1:19:16He puts out an all-call to all the road
1:19:18supervisors. They go I don't know where
1:19:21they went. They found a an open donut
1:19:23place at 3:00 in the morning, 4:00 in
1:19:25the morning. They raided a couple
1:19:28Speedway gas stations of any snacks,
1:19:30drinks, whatever, energy drinks. And by
1:19:32the time we got to the drug task force
1:19:35uh road patrol is walking in with just
1:19:37hands of stuff throwing it on the table
1:19:40and said, "Relax." Yeah.
1:19:42That is fantastic.
1:19:45Yeah, because at that point we were
1:19:46approaching the 24-hour
1:19:48Yeah, and you guys are exhausted. Yeah,
1:19:50the sun's getting ready to come up. Had
1:19:52a an exposure to the result of that
1:19:54shooting that you definitely didn't want
1:19:56to see. Yep. Mhm, absolutely. Did you
1:19:59guys debrief that at that point? No. No.
1:20:02I I there
1:20:05the term ineffective would be the best
1:20:07thing I could say. Like we there were so
1:20:09many
1:20:11There we have There's a big conference
1:20:12room at our drug task force and there's
1:20:15just it's a big long table with chairs
1:20:18around it and I think every single
1:20:20person was just It's a bunk bed, man.
1:20:22Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we were
1:20:24waiting cuz we can't just leave now. So,
1:20:26we we had to kind of go back and forth
1:20:28with BCI, which we don't know any of
1:20:29them.
1:20:30Um
1:20:32we do now because we've had some
1:20:35quite a few instances back-to-back, but
1:20:37uh at the time we didn't really know
1:20:39what they were going to expect of us
1:20:40that night.
1:20:41Uh we also had to notify chiefs cuz it's
1:20:45not just one chief we had to notify.
1:20:47to be involved.
1:20:48Absolutely. Me and him split the chief
1:20:49list up to call each and every policy
1:20:52board chief, you know, at 6:00 in the
1:20:54morning, whatever it was, and tell them
1:20:56what happened.
1:20:57Um
1:20:58so that's what we were doing while they
1:21:00were we were waiting for BCI to come
1:21:01back. Uh BCI has like a a crime scene
1:21:04unit and then they have the
1:21:07investigative side of it. And so they
1:21:10went to the hotel first and they're
1:21:11taking their pictures and
1:21:13doing all that there and then their plan
1:21:15was to come over to us and ultimately we
1:21:18ended up just taking our pictures that
1:21:20night.
1:21:21Yep. Uh we were we told them we were
1:21:23like, "We have We have training on
1:21:25Wednesday."
1:21:26Which was what, 24 hours after this?
1:21:28was on a Monday. Yeah. Yeah. So, we we
1:21:31have a training day scheduled on
1:21:33Wednesday. So, all of us are already
1:21:35allocated for a training day.
1:21:37So, I said, "Can
1:21:38let's just do where
1:21:41you bring all of your all of your
1:21:43interviewers that you're going to bring,
1:21:44being meaning BCI, and then you can just
1:21:47we'll just all show up." We went to the
1:21:49sheriff's office.
1:21:51Uh and they pulled us aside and
1:21:53according to what where they who they
1:21:55wanted to interview who and then we just
1:21:57did our interviews that day. Yeah, and
1:21:59also you have to coordinate it, you
1:22:01know, when that happens
1:22:02you have
1:22:0420 some of us to need interviewed. All
1:22:06of them that have union representation.
1:22:08Oh, yeah.
1:22:08All of them that have certain attorneys.
1:22:11Lining all that up took a little while.
1:22:13Yeah. But ultimately Wednesday
1:22:16uh Nate had sent out a page that said
1:22:19dress down
1:22:20khakis and a polo.
1:22:23Let's get in here. First, let's check
1:22:24our equipment and see what we have. What
1:22:26was taken as evidence, what wasn't, what
1:22:28do we have, what do we need.
1:22:30Yeah, cuz you still got a mission. Yep.
1:22:31Yeah.
1:22:32And uh
1:22:34lunch was provided uh by one of the
1:22:37police chiefs. And
1:22:40uh we ultimately just got interviewed
1:22:41that day.
1:22:42Um
1:22:44something that we started when when Nate
1:22:46came on was um
1:22:49at the end of every training we work out
1:22:51together.
1:22:52And that was probably one of the best
1:22:54things was
1:22:56leaving those interviews and everybody
1:22:58kind of everybody didn't know, you know,
1:23:00do you talk to each other, do you not
1:23:02talk to each other? It was just this
1:23:04weird feeling of, man, I don't I don't
1:23:06want to jeopardize anything and
1:23:08um
1:23:10but everybody hit the gym that day and
1:23:12it was it was worthwhile. Yeah.
1:23:14Yeah, it's kind of put put everybody
1:23:16back together.
1:23:16Yep.
1:23:17Did you subsequently sit down and
1:23:19debrief the incident as a team?
1:23:22And kind of walk through lessons
1:23:23learned?
1:23:24I mean, you put together a debrief for
1:23:26NTOA, obviously.
1:23:28Yes.
1:23:29Yeah. I I I don't know that it was
1:23:30anything formal, but we did not do a
1:23:32formal debrief.
1:23:33Yeah, we all just kind of
1:23:36campfire talked about it.
1:23:38Yeah. You know, and uh
1:23:40I mean, there wasn't anything negative
1:23:41to be said about it. I mean, I I we
1:23:44we all, including the new guys
1:23:46uh did what we needed to do and and it
1:23:49worked out to our advantage.
1:23:51No, it's a fantastic operation. You guys
1:23:53should be really proud of yourselves.
1:23:54Thank you.
1:23:56Wes, thank you. I appreciate you coming
1:23:58in and sitting down and sharing your
1:23:59story.
1:23:59you.
1:24:00Yeah.

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