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Erika Cheung guest lecture — Transcript

by Linda MacDonald Glenn · 13,609 words · 2,374 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:03and i'll turn on the recording
0:05while we're waking waiting for uh our
0:09speaker
0:10uh erica chung to show up and the rest
0:13of the class
0:14a few minutes ahead of time did
0:17you guys get to uh
0:21look at the articles i sent and
0:25the women in tech articles that sophia
0:28and frieza had assigned
0:37i was just wondering if they had done a
0:39good job
0:41covering and explaining
0:44what happened in theranos
0:53do you guys can you tell me
0:57um who can tell me about the theranose
0:59case
1:00what happened just in a summary
1:08oh yeah and please take a few moments
1:10and turn on your video if you're online
1:12so i can see you all
1:20i don't i don't necessarily expect you
1:23to keep them on
1:24but at least let me see that you guys
1:27are there
1:28hey johnny
1:32brian
1:37ian stephen
1:52hi jody colin
1:56skyler turn on your videos briefly
1:59oh yeah brian just keep it on for a few
2:01minutes
2:04until we can get everybody here can
2:06anybody tell me what the theranose case
2:08was about
2:18guys oh yeah what's what's up
2:22oh can you hear me okay i don't know
2:24that much about it but i i think i i
2:26like watched a youtube video on it once
2:28and it was like uh
2:29it's like this um it was like a way to
2:32examine blood right
2:33that's what the technology was supposed
2:35to be was like it's like a startup
2:36company and the
2:37it was supposed to be able to uh uh like
2:40really cheaply and easily
2:41uh get access to machines that can uh
2:45examine your blood for different things
2:47um and it was
2:48it's like notorious for uh leading
2:51investors on and
2:52uh like telling them what they want to
2:53hear kind of for a number of years
2:55um it's called fraud
3:00yeah and like the uh what was it the
3:02lady who like ran the whole thing
3:04she was uh elizabeth holmes uh-huh
3:07and she uh she like modeled her whole
3:10like personality and everything off
3:11off of like steve jobs it's gonna be
3:13like the next apple
3:14but yeah i don't know i just know it was
3:17a huge
3:18uh blunder because they uh
3:21yeah on the technology side yeah
3:24mm-hmm it was you know and i gave you
3:27guys a couple of articles to read about
3:29it and i think maybe a youtube video
3:33uh let's see now
3:37yeah all right uh yeah those of you who
3:41signed in can you turn on your videos
3:44so i can see you
3:51thank you oh yeah i just wanna
3:56i oh sorry i just want to say uh i i i
3:59didn't get to the readings i i actually
4:00uh i thought i just thought we were
4:02doing the
4:03the week seven module but i know i did i
4:04forgot about that yeah
4:06anyway sorry about that i i yeah i'm
4:09sorry i didn't put in the module i just
4:11sent it out as an announcement
4:14but the articles are really good
4:17they give a great background about what
4:20happened in a timeline
4:21did uh in the theranose case so thank
4:24you for the summary colin
4:28and uh i
4:31you know erica has been
4:34she's a colleague and a friend and
4:38she's an on she's an advisory
4:41board member of the center
4:45for applied uh before our center first
4:49uh center for applied ethics and values
4:51emerging technologies
4:53one of the things that we need to
4:57work on is get the website up
5:00and more functional it's in wordpress
5:03right now
5:05um wordpress i don't know if any of you
5:07have had to deal with wordpress but it's
5:09really
5:11um it's a pain i'll just put it that way
5:14have any of you ever had to deal with
5:16wordpress
5:19any experience dealing with field
5:21wordpress
5:22no
5:28did you get to uh
5:31i'm hoping at least some of you read the
5:33article
5:34the articles i sent on
5:38from wired magazine about
5:41how the whole elizabeth holmes theranos
5:45case was
5:46all being mansplained
5:52yeah you know and
5:57uh when um erica comes i mean she and
6:01i've had
6:02um you know a few conversations but you
6:05know we're both very interested and i
6:06think certainly because of what she went
6:08through and
6:09yeah here she is hi erica
6:13thank you for coming today
6:17hi linda how's it going good
6:21good so i was just telling uh the
6:23students a little bit about
6:25uh how we met how uh you're on the
6:28advisory board
6:30and a little bit about ex your
6:33experience
6:34and how uh we're
6:37you know how we came together because
6:39we're both interested in ethics you
6:40because of your experience and maybe
6:42because of my
6:44life experience in general so
6:48i sent the students several
6:51articles to read so that
6:54they would get a little bit of a
6:56background of what happened with their
6:58nose i sent them your ted talk
7:00i don't yeah i i don't know if they've
7:03had a chance to watch it sorry because i
7:05did send it over the weekend and i
7:07didn't put it into their like usual
7:09module
7:10so i prepped a little bit of a talk
7:14it'll probably take a lot of it is kind
7:17of the ted talk at least certain red
7:18flags
7:19i kind of modified a little bit of it uh
7:22for this audience
7:23because i know um yeah it'll be easier
7:26to talk to you guys
7:27in depth a little bit more of about the
7:29experience and everything else than
7:31a ted talk is pretty uh strict with its
7:34construction
7:35um so um did you want me to go
7:39over the talk or did you want to
7:42let me let me just take care of some
7:44housekeeping here
7:45for example uh like i do like people to
7:49turn on their videos
7:51at least when they first come in
7:54so uh zayn aaron
8:01please come say hi kushik
8:05miguel thank you louie
8:11i don't make them keep it on because i
8:14know sometimes it's necessary to
8:15preserve bandwidth
8:20b tree kushi did you turn yours on yet
8:23or
8:25you know keep it until at least i can
8:26see you guys
8:29okay give me yeah moment leon
8:33skyler jay
8:39all right
8:42visa i'd like to introduce you to fisa
8:44who's uh an
8:46intern with a center and these students
8:49are all doing an
8:50internship and so we're covering a lot
8:53of different
8:54uh topics
8:57and areas and there was this great
9:00article i found
9:01on wired about how the whole
9:05fairness elizabeth holmes case had been
9:08mansplained had you seen that one
9:12i think i may have seen this one i
9:13haven't i haven't
9:15yeah it was yeah it was interesting in
9:18any event please
9:19uh let's please welcome erica give her a
9:21hand thank you
9:23thank you erica for coming to speak all
9:25right guys i'm gonna attempt to
9:28am i able to share my screen uh you know
9:31what i'm gonna make your co-host hold on
9:33okay you'll be able to do that make a
9:36co-host yes
9:38there you go okay beautiful let me
9:42let me try this so it's excited to be
9:46talking to you guys my brother actually
9:47goes to uc santa cruz
9:49so i'm up there quite frequently you
9:52guys are lucky to be
9:53on a pretty gorgeous campus and i know
9:56it's a bit of a strange time now so some
9:58of you might not be there but hopefully
10:00hopefully you guys will be back in the
10:03next upcoming semesters
10:05um so today i
10:09figured it would be good to kind of just
10:11uh
10:12share a little bit of an intro into my
10:16story i know you guys did some
10:17background
10:18readings but i just want to make sure
10:20that everyone is kind of on the same
10:22page
10:23of of knowledge so i'm just going to run
10:26you through
10:27the kind of kind of personal journey
10:30that i went through
10:31in my own process of examining
10:34numerous ethical dilemmas and then
10:37trying to figure out
10:39while i was roughly about all your
10:41guys's ages
10:42what i could do about it um
10:45so i kind of want to transport you guys
10:48back in time to not that long ago to
10:50about 2013
10:52in 2014 and this was the height
10:55of the silicon valley everyone was
10:58flocking from
11:00all over the world to work for one of
11:02the big tech companies
11:04everyone's making money you know it's so
11:07popular and so big
11:09that there's satires being made from it
11:11like the tv show silicon valley there's
11:14even
11:14an aesthetic you know everyone's running
11:16around patagonia
11:18vest on with their company sweater
11:20they're all birds on
11:22like it's really this strong culture and
11:24community
11:25that at that point in time everyone
11:27really wanted to be a part of and wanted
11:29to get in the action
11:31so during this time there were
11:35no female founders actually who were a
11:39part of this
11:40unicorn club but there was about to be
11:43this sort of rising star
11:44and this was elizabeth holmes of uh
11:47theranos
11:49so i wanted to again going through this
11:51journey of trying to transplant you
11:53back in that time show you a brief clip
11:56of
11:57her that was probably one of the only
12:00available videos
12:01of her uh during this time because the
12:04company
12:05when i started working for it was in
12:07stealth mode so you couldn't really find
12:09much information
12:10about it
12:15let's see if this works i'm then it's
12:18about finding people who believe in you
12:20because the worst possible thing in the
12:22world is to have someone who doesn't
12:23believe in you
12:25backing you because it's not going to
12:26result in a good situation
12:29and i mean the first time that
12:32that i went through the process of
12:34raising money i assumed that i was going
12:35to have to talk to at least 200 people
12:37before i found one
12:38who was going to believe in me so i
12:40didn't really care if people were
12:41turning me down
12:42because i knew i would find someone who
12:44did i'm
12:47how do you make people believe in you
12:49how do you make people believe in you
12:51i'm you know i think you have to believe
12:55in yourself
12:56and i think you have to have the
12:57conviction in yourself
12:59to be able to make something happen
13:01because ultimately it's up to you
13:03and i'm when you have that level of
13:07conviction
13:08you'll find the people or the resources
13:11or the tools
13:13that you need to make it happen it it
13:15may take a lot longer than you think but
13:17it's about keeping that conviction in
13:18yourself
13:20so i think this is a really powerful
13:22clip because elizabeth was 19 when she
13:24said this
13:25and it kind of goes to show you the kind
13:27of character in the charisma
13:29that this person possessed and just in
13:32this statement of getting people to
13:34believe in you
13:36elizabeth got a ton of people to believe
13:38in her
13:39and not just any people she got some of
13:41the most high profile
13:45you know politicians military officials
13:48and business people to believe in her so
13:51some of the people that she had on her
13:52board of directors were george schultz
13:54and henry kissinger
13:55who and also james mattis
13:59and then also in her pool of investors
14:02where she raised
14:04700 million us dollars in total
14:07where from people like larry ellinson
14:09the walton family
14:11and betsy devos and there was one
14:14other person that also believed in her
14:17and that was me you know i'd heard the
14:19story
14:20i'd read this one other wall street
14:23journal article that was written about
14:25her
14:25and as a recent grad coming out of
14:27berkeley for my undergrad degree i
14:30was really impressed by her i was like
14:33wow this person had really
14:35worked hard to build up a company in
14:38blood diagnostics and i was a like
14:40burgeoning scientist
14:41where we could potentially provide
14:43accessible and affordable
14:45blood diagnostics for people like why
14:47wouldn't i want to sign up for this
14:49and so i did and i came in as an
14:52entry level lab associate into the
14:54company
14:56and just to kind of give you guys a bit
14:58of a primer on what the company did
15:01so theranose was a blood diagnostic
15:04company
15:05and what they were trying to do is
15:06instead of doing a venous draw
15:08for all their blood diagnostic tests
15:10you'd do a finger stick
15:12and so they were allowing patients to go
15:14into
15:15walgreens centers to basically order
15:18various labs they'd get a finger prick
15:20you'd put this little
15:21tiny vial into a machine that was about
15:24the size of a printer
15:25it would process for a while and it spit
15:28out the results
15:28on your phone and this is a pretty big
15:30deal um
15:31i don't know if many of you are familiar
15:33with diagnostics but the sort of
15:35decentralized way of this operating is
15:37is pretty cutting edge and
15:40even the notion of offering price
15:42transparency
15:43for your blood diagnostics at least at
15:45that time was
15:47something that people hadn't really
15:48encountered in the us
15:50at least so you know
15:54where did things go wrong how did she go
15:56from being on the cover
15:57of fortune and forbes and ink and being
16:00celebrated
16:02as this um you know
16:05hero of a person to then becoming one of
16:09the largest tech scandals
16:10in in us history and i'll kind of share
16:13with you guys
16:14my sort of perspective on it and i think
16:18if you are building a biotechnology
16:20company and you're just in research and
16:21development and toying around in the lab
16:23that's fine but i think where theranow
16:25started to go wrong
16:27was when it struck up this deal with
16:29walgreens
16:30where now they were opening in walgreens
16:33all across
16:34america where they had to promise that
16:36the device that they had built
16:37would have to be sent into these
16:39walgreens and they'd have to start
16:41testing thousands of patients a day
16:45versus the couple basically a couple
16:48they were only testing maybe like five
16:50or ten
16:50at the time when i started working there
16:52and i think the pressure from this deal
16:54is really when you started to sort of
16:57get into a territory that the actions
16:59that they were able to get away
17:01being scientists toying in a lab were no
17:03longer acceptable
17:04as as time went on so what were some of
17:07the key red flags
17:08me entry level lab associate what did i
17:12start paying attention to
17:14well the first thing that i started to
17:15notice was when i would sit in a lab
17:18meeting
17:19we would be going over data to see okay
17:22is this test for you know
17:26let's just say it was coven you know
17:28some sort of infectious disease
17:30is this test accurate or not so we'd
17:33look at data sets like this
17:35and we'd sit down and the lead
17:38scientists would say oh well take out
17:39that
17:40outlier so i'd say well which one which
17:43one is the outlier
17:44and if i asked you guys in here to pick
17:47out the outlier what
17:48what would you guys think do you guys
17:49have any any thoughts
17:51of what it would be
17:58don't don't be shy guys 70 000
18:01maybe 70 000. 90 000 actually
18:07so the real answer is is you have no
18:09idea right you don't know
18:11and typically you want to keep
18:14everything because you you can't there's
18:15no good way to really measure
18:18what is an outlier in this case you have
18:20to just keep the integrity of all the
18:22data because then it can start to tell
18:24you
18:25you know are is it the case that 90 000
18:27is
18:28actually the norm but for whatever
18:31reason when i ran these three samples it
18:33just didn't come out that way
18:34there's no way to really tell so what i
18:37started noticing is that these
18:38lab associates were or these the the
18:42head scientists were deleting all this
18:44information to basically
18:46make sure that the accuracy was in the
18:4890 percentile
18:50or to make sure that there's something
18:51called precision and there's all these
18:53other
18:54metrics that you have to hit in order to
18:56get fda approval
18:57were within the range of acceptable by
19:00regulators
19:02well a consequence of this is when
19:05i had transitioned from sitting in these
19:08r d meetings
19:09to now being in charge of
19:12integrating these devices that we had
19:14seen in r d
19:15into a clinical setting i had to now
19:18test
19:19real patients so before you test a real
19:22patient
19:23you'll typically get uh something called
19:26a quality control and what this
19:27is is you have a sample you know the
19:30concentration
19:31and you run it and you hope you get that
19:33same concentration simple concept
19:35so i'm i'm trying to get a sample that's
19:3820 micrograms per mil for vitamin d but
19:41i'm running it in the theranos device
19:44and it comes out 150. so this means that
19:46this patient would be overdosing
19:48on vitamin d i get again and it's
19:51two micrograms so it
19:54means that it has this person has to
19:56consult a doctor that they're probably
19:58deficient in vitamin d and then i run it
20:00again and it's normal for vitamin d
20:02so again i run into a scenario where i'm
20:05getting
20:06all this variability and how do i know
20:09what's the right answer well there's no
20:11there's no good way i know the right
20:12answer in this case i know it's 20
20:14micrograms per mil
20:15but i keep running it and it's coming
20:17out all crazy and all psychotic and this
20:20is not the case just for vitamin d this
20:22was happening for
20:23pro like cancer cancer diagnostics
20:26infectious disease diagnostics like
20:28everything
20:30we were having these issues with again
20:33samples that i knew the concentration i
20:34knew what the right answer was
20:36but in a patient's context you don't
20:38necessarily know what that is
20:40so i you know being the you know
20:44workaholic that i am i i did these
20:47experiments and many other experiments i
20:48sort of collected this evidence and
20:50you know i had basically been showing it
20:54to them
20:54to say hey you know i don't think this
20:56is good
20:57to be testing on patients right away
21:01and when we would do these experiments
21:04we would have these comparable studies
21:06where we would show the therianos device
21:08and something called the
21:11predicate method but it's really just
21:13the machines that are already used in
21:14the hospitals today
21:16and we would do these side-by-side
21:18comparisons and they would come out
21:20radically different
21:21and what theranos had done instead of
21:24sending the edison devices which they
21:26were testing on patients
21:28they sent it from the fda approved
21:30machines and of course
21:32they passed the sort of testing in order
21:35to get their certifications and their
21:37licensees
21:38so it was clear to me okay even
21:40internally in this company we don't
21:42trust our results
21:43we're going with the machines that are
21:45already in existence
21:46to talk to regulators and interface with
21:48them so what's going on here
21:50you know it's not the case that they
21:52don't understand that there's issues
21:54with this machine that
21:55all this evidence that i have been
21:57collecting is not being communicated to
21:59them they're making decisions to suggest
22:02that they don't even trust this device
22:04so
22:05you know i saw all these behaviors and i
22:09went up to the co
22:10i talked to the medical director i
22:12talked to the lab director i talked to a
22:13whole bunch of
22:15reports but finally went up to the co
22:17and i told them
22:18hey i love working for this company i
22:22love the mission
22:23but at this point i don't think we
22:24should be testing on patient samples and
22:26we're seeing a lot of issues and a lot
22:28of errors
22:29and he basically says you're what a
22:32recent grad
22:33uh you know you don't know what you're
22:35talking about have you ever taken a
22:36statistics class you need to do the job
22:38i pay you to do and process patient
22:40samples at all cost
22:41and that that was sunny balwani right
22:44yeah that was sonny bowani
22:46so at this point i was pitted in a a
22:48really tough position
22:49right i went into this company because i
22:52wanted to provide
22:55affordable and accessible health care
22:57for people
22:58and to know that i my only job
23:02was to test people with a
23:06medical like with a diagnostic kit that
23:09i didn't trust that i wouldn't give to
23:10myself
23:11i just i couldn't i couldn't live with
23:13the reality of
23:14of uh doing that to other people right
23:17if i can't give it to my brother
23:19if i can't give it to my sister if i
23:21can't give it to my family members i
23:22have no business giving it to anyone
23:24else's family members
23:25was my opinion so that night i had
23:29actually
23:29befriended a colleague of mine
23:33in the organization's tyler schultz
23:35who's also known as is one of the key
23:37whistleblowers in this case and i called
23:38up tyler because i knew
23:40he had been talking as i talked to sonny
23:42he was talking to elizabeth
23:44and i'd said hey can i come with you to
23:47your grandfather's house who was on the
23:49board of directors
23:50to basically let him know i think there
23:52will be power in numbers
23:53if i come and talk to him about some of
23:56the issues especially because i was in
23:58the clinical lab
23:58tyler was more in r d and so we go to
24:03george schultz house and we tell them
24:05like hey what they are telling you
24:07is not actually what's happening and
24:09when
24:10you think that you're getting your blood
24:12drawn and it gets put in the device you
24:13get spit out an
24:14answer what's really happening is their
24:17shov you know taking that blood sample
24:19out of the machine they're running it to
24:21a back laboratory and we have like six
24:23different devices
24:24that are all competing after this tiny
24:26little vile blood
24:28with like seven eight different people
24:30trying to process
24:32it and they're not even accurate they're
24:34not even precise they're all
24:36they're just completely error ridden and
24:39he
24:39gives me a similar response of uh you
24:42seem very smart
24:43but i brought in a lot of smart people
24:45into this case
24:46and um they say that this is going to
24:50revolutionize health care
24:51that this is the next big thing so maybe
24:53you should look for a job
24:55elsewhere so i do
24:59i quit i i basically after talking to
25:01the co
25:02and talking to uh the board i was like i
25:05can't do this like i just
25:07um can't fathom this it was funny
25:11because george had went on this like
25:14side tangent about integrity before we
25:17had gotten dinner
25:19and talking about how at the end of his
25:21life the only thing that he's found
25:23important is that he can maintain his
25:25integrity and i'm crying right i'm at
25:27this house like one of the nicest houses
25:28i've ever been to in my life
25:30is going to say you know basically to
25:33this man who's invested you know
25:35hundreds
25:35probably millions of dollars into this
25:37company and is on the board and
25:39technically has fiduciary duty too
25:41that like you know it's all a scam um
25:44but uh yeah that stuck with me that
25:46conversation of integrity and
25:48hence hence why i left um
25:52my kind of saga didn't stop there i uh
25:56had you know was trying to figure out
25:58what to do
25:59i ended up getting contacted by a
26:01journalist and the journalist said hey
26:03you know this is what i've heard about
26:05their nose i
26:06um despite having signed an nda i did
26:09talk to a journalist and i
26:11also subsequently filed a report with
26:14regulators with cms
26:15because after i had
26:18basically talked to the wall street
26:21journal reporter
26:22initially uh theranos went on this huge
26:25witch hunt and
26:26basically were threatening to sue a
26:28whole bunch of former employees myself
26:30included
26:31erica cms that is the center for
26:35medicare and medic
26:38medical services did i lose you i'm
26:41sorry
26:42okay thanks that's okay not everybody
26:45all right for medic
26:46medicare and medical services thanks so
26:49to give you guys context the people who
26:51regulate
26:52over lab diagnostics is medicare and
26:54medi-cal
26:55and so all the lab diagnostics are not
26:58regulated by the fda they're regulated
26:59by
27:01cms
27:04so so yeah so i wrote a letter to cms
27:08it was good i did and i figured that out
27:10because
27:11it sparked an investigation that proved
27:14that there are major deficiencies
27:16all across theranos's lab that i wasn't
27:19just
27:20not being a team player that it was true
27:24and uh it stopped them from processing
27:26patient samples and they had to revoke
27:28like tens of thousands of patient
27:30samples and um yeah it's
27:34it's interesting coming at the tail end
27:36of this saga
27:38and this experience because i think a
27:39lot of people have always claimed that
27:41the reason theranos failed
27:43was because of a
27:47product failure they just didn't have
27:49the product and so that's why they
27:50weren't successful
27:52but what i would really argue is that
27:54the reason theranos failed is because of
27:56ethical failures
27:58they had some of the best partnerships
28:00in the country
28:01they had more money than majority of
28:04other
28:05startups could even fathom they could
28:07have bought out technology
28:09they had an immense amount of clout and
28:12influence
28:12and and just fame
28:16in a certain way but it was really
28:18because of these small decisions
28:20of deciding to overlook
28:24unethical behavior that i really think
28:26that this led to
28:28their collapse and there's this great
28:30book that's helped
28:31it was i've been looking at these
28:33different models of how you can
28:35frame an ethical collapse and marianne
28:37jennings came out with this book called
28:38the seven signs of ethical collapse
28:40and theranose like hits all the markers
28:44you know pressure to maintain numbers
28:45they were opening in walgreens
28:47fear and silence they had to sign ndas
28:50before we when we interviewed for the
28:52company right if you are interviewing
28:54for a company they make you sign an nda
28:56you should
28:56be a little concerned unless you're
28:58working for the government it's very
29:00bizarre for that to happen
29:02you know the staff was very young even
29:05though some people would claim theranose
29:06had a weak
29:08a strong board we really had a weak
29:09board when it comes to a biotech company
29:12conflicts of interest sunny and
29:14elizabeth were dating
29:16there was all sorts of crazy internal
29:22weirdness going on innovation like no
29:25other um
29:27you know essentially they were saying
29:29well
29:30you know this is going to be the next
29:32big thing
29:33so we can sacrifice you know
29:37these administrative bureaucratic
29:40processes because you know we're not
29:42we're in a category of our own
29:44that's you know those rules don't apply
29:46to us
29:47uh and then goodness in some areas of
29:49toning for evil and others we were in
29:50healthcare
29:51you know healthcare is probably one of
29:53the most benevolent endeavors that
29:55majority of
29:56there's consensus amongst people from
29:58all different backgrounds that people
29:59can go in so
30:01i think it grant garnered a lot of moral
30:04licensing
30:06to to do a lot of a lot of bad things
30:09in their mind maybe i don't know i still
30:12can't understand why she made the
30:13decisions she did but
30:15it's a different topic so i wanted to
30:17just talk to you guys on something that
30:20i think is important so
30:22during one of the aspects of this is
30:25fear and silence
30:26and theranos above
30:29majority of other organizations did a
30:32lot to
30:33induce a culture of fear to silence its
30:35employees so much so that they hired one
30:37of the top corporate lawyers
30:39in the u.s to come after me they hire
30:42private investigators to follow me
30:44the reason i show this as a case example
30:47is
30:48i had moved out of my apartment and i
30:50was sleeping on my co-workers couch
30:52and no one knew where i was living
30:54because i was sleeping on my couch and i
30:56was traveling every weekend i
30:57i had like a weird living situation
31:01and on this letter from david boyes
31:04was my co-worker's address and it
31:07freaked me out because my own mother
31:09didn't even know where i was living at
31:11this point so it was very clear to me
31:13that they were following me
31:14because no one knew this address it was
31:17just basically i was crashing on my my
31:19friend's
31:19friend's couch so
31:23you know you have to be careful with
31:26these sort of retaliations
31:28and understand that even if you get a
31:30big scary lawyer letter
31:31it doesn't mean that you're subpoenaed
31:33to go to court
31:34so just know that this is my my pro tip
31:38doesn't mean you have to lawyer up yet
31:40it doesn't mean anything it just
31:41probably means that they're trying to
31:42scare you
31:43um so oh yes i i
31:46uh was orienting this towards uh towards
31:50people who are interested in creating
31:51and fostering speak up cultures but one
31:53of the things that's been interesting
31:54about being retroactive about this is
31:57you know
31:58why why do people become whistleblowers
32:00and why do people
32:01become why do people decide to to speak
32:04up and
32:05one of the psychological underpinnings
32:07for this
32:08is that whistleblowing is sort of this
32:10extreme
32:11uh pro-group behavior and it's a type of
32:14identity fusion
32:15where whistleblowers feel directly
32:17connected on a very visceral sense to
32:20the group
32:21that they're working for and there's the
32:24sense that
32:25you know even if
32:29the actions that the whistleblower takes
32:32comes at a personal cost
32:33it's ultimately for the greater benefit
32:35of the group you know you could arguably
32:37see this with someone like edward
32:38snowden who
32:40felt like it was a big personal cost to
32:42him to release all this information but
32:44it was ultimately for the benefit of the
32:47american people to understand
32:50when their privacy was being violated
32:52without their consent
32:54and because of his actions now we have
32:55widespread encryption on the internet
32:57so that is that's a pretty big um
33:00you know impact to to sort of have but
33:03on the flip side you know why do people
33:06fail to speak up and why why do you get
33:09so many bystanders
33:11so there tends to be something called
33:12the bystander effect and the bystander
33:14effect is when
33:16one when a group of people see the same
33:18bad incident happen
33:20the more people who are actually
33:22observing the same
33:24bad thing they tend to report less
33:27because there's a diffusion of
33:29responsibility that occurs
33:31because people are like well someone
33:32else took care of it so for example when
33:34people see car accidents
33:36the more and more people that observe a
33:38car accident the less and less likely
33:40each of those individuals are able to
33:41are going to call 9-1-1
33:43because they thought someone else
33:44already called 9-1-1 but there are also
33:47three other core factors that prevent
33:49people from speaking up
33:51and that's really because a lot of
33:52people feel like if they report
33:54nothing's going to happen what's the use
33:56this is just going to be a big pain
33:58for no change and foreseeable outcome uh
34:01they're scared of retaliation
34:03which in my case that was that was a
34:04very clear consequence
34:06of um something that i
34:10had done and then also social rejection
34:12right being
34:14told by others like you're not being a
34:16team player or
34:17that you are ostracized by other people
34:21that you feel like an outsider like that
34:23can have a really
34:24um uh
34:28kind of repellent effect of people
34:31coming forward when they when they see
34:33something wrong
34:34so i kind of wanted to give you guys
34:35this framing you can ask for the
34:37questions just to sort of see
34:39i think you know in in my mind you know
34:41mistakes are going to be a fact of life
34:43it's the response to those errors that
34:45really that really count
34:47and and i think not only in my own story
34:50but also in the story and saga of
34:51theranos this was really the case that
34:53we can all
34:54find mistakes to be forgivable but you
34:57know i think it's the continual
34:58lack of response to those mistakes in a
35:00proper way that really makes people
35:03kind of repulsed by by other people's
35:05actions so
35:07that's all i have for you guys i love q
35:09a i'm
35:10pretty good about being open with any
35:13and candid with any questions so
35:14feel free to shoot anything
35:17that that you would like go ahead and
35:21unmute yourselves
35:22i have questions but i want to let
35:24others go first
35:33um what did you like what was your next
35:36job after
35:38my next job after i ended up
35:42being an r d associate for a contract
35:44research organization
35:46in the silicon valley so i was off the
35:49record for a long time so i think it
35:50didn't really affect
35:51my ability to get a job following that
35:54because
35:55i didn't go on the record until fairly
35:57recently
35:59but uh it was
36:02basically a research associate i worked
36:04in tangentially related to
36:06diagnostics and immunotherapies um
36:10and then after that i i moved to hong
36:12kong and i
36:13launched a tech accelerator out there so
36:15i i kind of
36:17had a bizarre change in pivoting career
36:24did you end up getting sued no
36:28no because it was all it was all
36:31intimidation
36:32um no i have been subpoenaed several
36:35times in order to be the witness
36:37for various cases against nose but
36:40i've never had to get a lawyer i it was
36:43all
36:43kind of empty threats one of the things
36:46that
36:47is probably good for all of you guys to
36:49know is when a company sues an
36:52individual
36:53that information goes into the public
36:55record and so i think in the case of
36:57theranose
36:58if they had sued a 22 year olds
37:01oh my god really
37:05there would have been very big question
37:07marks of why they were suing
37:09this 22 year old so just as i had to be
37:12cautious about not getting sued
37:14they had to be cautious about suing and
37:17they can send whatever threatening
37:19letters that they want but you are not
37:21required to lawyer up and show up to
37:23court until you are
37:25subpoenaed and that's it so that's
37:27that's a bit of a
37:29if i was these are things that you
37:31shouldn't know
37:33when you're a student but would have
37:35been very helpful for me to know in
37:37in that context and in which i i i found
37:41out
37:41um i i luckily found out from talking to
37:44a lawyer
37:44not one i hired but who was being
37:46helpful
37:53the tech accelerator uh essentially
37:57what we did was um
38:00it was kind of i don't know if you're
38:01familiar with y combinator so as an
38:03early
38:04stage tech accelerator what you do is
38:06you
38:07give upfront capital to various tech
38:09companies that apply to your program
38:11you run them through a four month we did
38:14a four month program
38:16and you take equity within those
38:19companies that you run through there
38:22uh we initially did them with companies
38:24all across southeast asia
38:27a little bit of oceana
38:30some u.s companies but mostly that were
38:33oriented towards serving
38:34servicing the apac market and we've
38:37heavily started being in
38:38logistics because hong kong's a big
38:40logistics hub
38:43very have you been able to uh sorry
38:47i didn't need to write did you have
38:48another okay um
38:51did you have to try and raise
38:54seed funding for that or
38:58i came into it when the money was
39:00already
39:02oh sorry linda it's a little choppy when
39:05the money
39:05oh that's okay i'm gonna turn off my
39:09video for a minute so to preserve
39:10bandwidth
39:11uh i um some i've heard
39:15oh well it seems to me sometimes women
39:17have trouble getting
39:19funding for startups yeah uh
39:22have you what's your been your
39:24observation or experience on that
39:28uh if any
39:32there's like the good and the bad and
39:33the ugly with this content this question
39:35oh that's great
39:36no that's great so i think
39:40uh in terms of so there have been a lot
39:42of initiatives
39:44part of the reason i worked for the
39:46accelerator because is because i wanted
39:48to fundamentally understand
39:49why certain things got invested versus
39:51others where i saw
39:53a lot of good technologies not get
39:55invested in
39:56over good charismatic people who didn't
40:00have good technologies who got invested
40:01in and what was
40:02why was that disparity exist why did
40:04that disparity exist
40:06um i think
40:10you part of the issue that you have
40:14amongst venture capital is this
40:17intro only way of getting access to
40:22various companies so friends a lot of
40:24venture capitalists will invest in
40:26people who went to their same schools
40:28or who were friends with them in their
40:32football club or were associated with
40:35their
40:36families so you do get a lot of that
40:38sort of insular
40:40capital fundraising that i think makes
40:42it very hard when
40:44historically the people who started
40:46businesses were all
40:47men it makes it very hard for women to
40:50infiltrate sometimes these kind of
40:52closed
40:52circles gatherings um i think
40:55there have been a ton of initiatives to
40:57increase capital that's being
41:01available to women but there's still a
41:03long way to go
41:05it's it's one of those things that you
41:06have to always ask yourself what's
41:08what's sort of the issue there's a lot
41:10of complaints that
41:12um there aren't enough female founders i
41:14just don't think that's necessarily
41:17the case i think there are plenty female
41:19founders
41:20and it's also one of those things when
41:22female founders are chronically not
41:24getting invested in they tend to close
41:26down
41:26their companies much sooner because
41:28they're not able to sort of sustain the
41:30businesses that they've had
41:32that's starting to change though that's
41:34starting to change i think within the
41:35last
41:38probably like the last five years six
41:39years you you have a
41:41quite a few of um really
41:46uh really strong female-led companies
41:48that
41:49have been able to to sort of
41:52um rise the ranks in certain ways there
41:54have been better initiatives to make vcs
41:57diversify
41:58how they um
42:01engage with different types of companies
42:05um also i think another scary thing and
42:08this was really rampant amongst the vc
42:10community is their strong
42:12controls to prevent sexual harassment
42:14and assault in vc meetings
42:16there was a very clear kind of gross
42:19power dynamic amongst female
42:21founders and kind of male investors
42:24and that really needed to be reconciled
42:27and resolved
42:28you had you know 500 startups the big
42:30scandal
42:32with uh one of the
42:35head partners there where um and you
42:38will
42:39see this i think it's uber uber was one
42:42of them wasn't it
42:43uber had a ton of issues in
42:46terms of the way in which they handled
42:49reports of sexual harassment amongst
42:52internally with amongst their employees
42:54and they had like this one predatorial
42:56person that was able to just like
42:58continuously
42:59and repeat offend uh and then also in
43:02terms of the complaints from their
43:04drivers they were
43:05they really failed to address um those
43:08issues
43:09zane has his hand up yeah
43:13okay so this really isn't really about
43:15what you were like
43:17what you came here to talk about but i
43:18was just wondering whether you could
43:19talk about like
43:20the culture between here and like hong
43:23kong
43:24oh the difference in the culture yeah
43:27like specifically like work culture
43:31uh we have it very easy here um that is
43:36first you work way more uh in asia you
43:39you work
43:40uh way more hours i was working i was
43:43working a lot when i worked in the
43:44silicon valley as well but i think
43:45that's just my nature but you
43:47um tend to work from nine
43:50to i guess 8 p.m
43:54uh six days a week in in hong kong
43:57uh the work culture okay so there are a
44:00couple different things you can do
44:02people work longer hours uh the tech
44:05ecosystem is not really well built out
44:06in hong kong i would say it's still
44:08kind of like a it was a burgeoning tech
44:11center but with the protest
44:14in addition to covid um
44:17in addition to sort of the uh
44:20security law that was passed in the sort
44:22of flight of a lot of international
44:24companies from hong kong because of
44:26the sort of power play that china
44:29put over hong kong recently um
44:33it sort of shifted things a bit uh i
44:36think
44:37when it comes to uh
44:40diversity that the composition is
44:43different you know majority of the
44:44people are going to be either from
44:45mainland china
44:46or from hong kong it's just the
44:49demographic shift you get a lot of
44:51people from south
44:52south asia as well um
44:58it's not as as formalized as the us's
45:01right it's a lot less regulated
45:03but zane more specifically what were you
45:06interested in the sort of differences in
45:07the work culture
45:10uh honestly i was just kind of curious
45:12as to how
45:13specifically like the power or or like
45:16the struggle that's going on in hong
45:17kong like affected it
45:18but you can't address that yeah yeah
45:21it's it's uh
45:22it it's weird a lot of companies that
45:25were working in hong kong were already
45:26interfacing with china so i don't think
45:28they were
45:29there was as much migration as people
45:32had anticipated
45:33because people had already wanted to do
45:35business with china that were in hong
45:36kong
45:37um but yeah it's
45:40it's it's interesting i think when it
45:43comes to
45:44the ability to speak up to there are not
45:47nearly as many channels
45:49uh in hong kong and there are not as
45:51many regulatory bodies that you can kind
45:53of turn to
45:54like there is in in the us we have way
45:56more
45:58protections for people i would say here
46:00in the us than you would
46:01um you would there
46:06thank you so much that answered
46:07everything um
46:10erica you had spoken when we had spoken
46:13we talked a little bit about how
46:16we uh you know when you first started
46:18working with elizabeth holmes how
46:20exciting it was you know to have a woman
46:23as a role model
46:24and then after what happened
46:28uh you know well how did that have
46:31what kind of impact did that have i mean
46:34it's
46:35it's awful right because because you
46:37realize uh you realize how
46:40um so there
46:43i i was excited here's kind of my
46:47my thesis on this if it is the case that
46:50i'm a woman
46:51who is trying to start a biotechnology
46:53company i have a 90
46:55failure rate because the science doesn't
46:56work out i have a 90
46:58failure rate because um the company just
47:01doesn't work
47:02and in addition to that i have to
47:04convince an investor who's
47:05never actually backed a successful
47:07female founder that i'm going to be the
47:09exception
47:11and that is just really hard odds
47:15to be fighting up against and so
47:17elizabeth as a role model to me
47:19was it was like okay people will have
47:22that figure that they can turn to where
47:24other investors will look and see you
47:26know
47:28we should be diversifying we shouldn't
47:31be so discriminatory when we're making
47:33you shouldn't be the thing that just
47:34like like invest in like
47:37like diversity is important and so to
47:40have
47:40that not one
47:44have it then kind of weaponized in a way
47:47of how people
47:48shouldn't invest in female founders was
47:51really
47:52really devastating to me and really hard
47:55right because i think it was it i think
47:59what was more apparent was how deep the
48:01discrimination is
48:02where there are so many of these male
48:05fraudsters that get away
48:07with what they're doing but we don't say
48:09men need to stop being businessmen
48:12oh my god but when it when actually it's
48:14something like 70
48:16of all corporate crimes are done by men
48:17that could be because they're sort of
48:19dominating force but i think uh
48:22it was it was it was heartbreaking right
48:24it was heartbreaking for so many
48:26different reasons it was heartbreaking
48:27because
48:28of all the stuff that happened with the
48:31patients it was heartbreaking because
48:32i've i
48:33knew that this was going to take a blow
48:35to point of care diagnostics industry
48:37for a while
48:38it was heartbreaking because it was just
48:40another point for
48:41women to say and like kind of wince a
48:43little bit because people would come up
48:45to them and say how do i know you're not
48:46the next elizabeth holmes
48:48oh god yeah there there was it was just
48:51adding to the layers of complication
48:53of of really um
48:56factors that really took away from the
48:59sort of
49:00merit of of what what people were
49:02working on
49:03um because when you look at the numbers
49:05i think during that time
49:07it was like 36 unicorns and zero had
49:09female founders
49:11in 2013. or there was yeah zero of them
49:19so um i'm go i'm i'd like to ask you
49:22about a little bit about ethics and
49:24entrepreneurship
49:25and you know tell the class that
49:29you know i found you and can you know
49:31we've connected and
49:32we hope to continue to work together but
49:35let me see if there's any other
49:36questions
49:41come on guys i know go ahead i was just
49:43wondering like
49:44where is elizabeth holmes now like what
49:46is she
49:47does she get in trouble like
49:51so uh she has been postponing
49:54the trial uh for it's we're now going on
49:59the second year um so the first time
50:02that she
50:02was supposed to be tried uh
50:06it's a federal case um yeah i think was
50:09almost two years ago
50:10it was almost two years ago so this is a
50:13strategy that the lawyers will pull
50:15because it's such a high profile case to
50:18have it leave the memories of potential
50:21jury members
50:22they'll keep trying to push it and push
50:24it and push it and push it delay delay
50:26delay
50:27yeah um so
50:32sorry she's she's facing like i don't
50:34know how many charges of fraud
50:35quite a few yeah it's this is something
50:39that's interesting about
50:40the justice system though that i didn't
50:42realize
50:43the worst thing you can do in the u.s is
50:46wire fraud
50:47um so in terms of like the most
50:50unethical thing you can do
50:51it's basically pocketing your investors
50:54money into your own pocket
50:56and the list of charges
51:00in terms of endangering the public and
51:02potentially killing people for
51:04like severe and repeated negligence
51:08it's like the 14th charge it just blows
51:10my mind of what
51:11like our priorities are in this country
51:13but um
51:14but it it it yeah so so that's the first
51:17thing that she's
51:18she's being charged with and uh yeah i
51:22think
51:2218 18 other counts yep that's what i
51:25remembered 18
51:26yeah other counts but
51:30you know the lifestyle the fact that she
51:33and her co-founder
51:36were living high uh
51:39you know a very high uh fast-paced
51:42lifestyle
51:43yeah they were paying she had the
51:45company like pay for her security guards
51:48to pay for like a rental in the at like
51:50some atherton house
51:52uh there were lots of ways in which she
51:54was able to
51:55sort of get the company to pay for her
51:57own
51:59her own things okay
52:04did any of your co-workers kind of feel
52:06the same way that you did or
52:07were you alone you
52:10a lot of people had believed that the
52:12technology didn't work or it didn't work
52:14well
52:14especially us in the lab um
52:18i don't uh
52:22like like did any of them question it
52:24like did everyone like actually like
52:26kind of
52:26come up like you did and actually you
52:28know voice their concern
52:30so some people had voiced their concern
52:31it was kind of like a bell curve of
52:33people
52:33the voicing of the concern never got
52:36pushed far enough
52:37i would say uh there were uh there was
52:40actually a small collective
52:41so in terms of the people who reported
52:44to the wall street journal there was a
52:45small
52:46collective of people it's often just
52:48said
52:49i think in the very beginning people
52:50thought it was just tyler but it wasn't
52:52it was actually like a small group of us
52:54that came to
52:55forward to the wall street journal in
52:57terms of people who reported to
52:59regulators i think
53:00there was me and one other person one
53:02other person had reported i
53:04believe to the fda
53:07so it
53:11there were people but it's just hard
53:13it's hard to know what to do
53:14you're again in this sort of culture of
53:16fear and secrecy that's reminding you
53:18every you know few months that you
53:22signed an nda
53:23that you can't post what you do for
53:25non-distinct
53:26sorry non-disclosure i just want to make
53:28sure that i guess nice
53:30non-disclosure agreement
53:34so go ahead sorry linda another another
53:37tip that i i would like to tell you guys
53:38because i imagine some of you will work
53:40for for tech companies
53:42if you see someone commit an actual
53:45crime
53:46your nda does not apply you are allowed
53:49to know
53:51you're allowed to report just just know
53:53that um
53:54there's a question from melissa thomas
53:57one of our guests
53:58melissa what would you like to ask
54:00actually i have a comment for erica
54:02i just i was aware of you before today
54:05and linda invited me because you are one
54:06of our great heroes
54:08and i just want to say that i think that
54:11if we're looking for
54:12women who are powerful amazing role
54:15models
54:16for for my daughter and even for the old
54:19women like
54:19linda and myself you are our role model
54:23of ethical living and there's no doubt
54:25in my mind that you saved lives
54:27by your actions because it would have
54:29only been a matter of time until a death
54:30happened
54:31and i just adore you and i want you to
54:34know that there's a whole
54:36community rooting for you and cheering
54:38for you and holding you in our hearts
54:40thank you oh thank you melissa that's
54:42very kind that's very very sweet melissa
54:45anybody else have any
54:50questions
54:53uh do you know like how your name got uh
54:56like eventually got leaked
54:57did you ever find that out yeah i did it
55:00was not a very happy day for me um
55:02so i remember it quite well uh
55:05sorry i'm in like oh sorry yeah i just
55:07meant like uh i know
55:08like like how yeah anyway okay never
55:10mind i didn't have anything
55:13if you don't mind answering it yeah i
55:15don't mind yeah no i don't mind
55:17answering it
55:17i had gotten subpoenaed for a court case
55:20so more private investigators
55:22came to visit me in hong kong i got
55:25subpoenaed for
55:26a court case for an investor lawsuit
55:30and the judge for that investor lawsuit
55:32decided to
55:34open up the court case for everyone to
55:36read even though it was a private
55:38lawsuit
55:39so i woke up one day and got a bunch of
55:43emails and said erica your name's in
55:44bloomberg and sf chronicle
55:46and had no idea why and
55:50essentially the report had said that i
55:52had reported to the cdc
55:54and said all this other stuff that just
55:56was not
55:57um not an accurate
56:02nor truthful representation of things
56:04that i had done
56:05so after basically
56:08thinking that it was uh john that had
56:11done it i basically
56:14found out it was because the judge had
56:16decided to release the record
56:18from this particular court case that i
56:20was involved in and that's how i went on
56:21the record and people
56:22said you either own your story or you
56:26let them own it and that's why i sort of
56:29kind of took full command even though
56:31i'm
56:32i'm not a big fan of of being in the
56:35spotlight i'm i'm way too
56:36introverted uh for it to be comfortable
56:39for myself so
56:41yeah nihilists like how is that even
56:43allowed
56:46judges have a lot of power to do those
56:49kinds
56:49of things yeah it's worked out in my
56:51benefit though i think i was being a bit
56:53too
56:54i think because i was very scared of
56:56these people for a very long time and
56:58now because i'm in the public record
56:59that does offer some level of protection
57:02that i think i would have never been
57:03cognizant of
57:05if it hadn't happened i think
57:08more damage could have in the event of
57:11bad things
57:12happening to me in the future which is
57:13still not off the table because i just
57:15don't fundamentally trust these people
57:17um uh i might have more protections
57:20because of just the the high profile
57:23nature
57:24of the case and being on the record so
57:27we'll find out okay
57:31uh one other question
57:36any other questions go ahead how long
57:39were you afraid
57:40of some sort of retribution and do you
57:43think like that is passed
57:47um
57:50i think once cms
57:53had conducted the investigation that was
57:55a big sigh of relief like okay
57:59what you were saying was valid the
58:01concerns you had
58:02are backed by evidence and that was
58:05um sort of a good position to be in i
58:08think when the company
58:10went under that was another sort of sigh
58:13of relief
58:14um but i think
58:18my next sigh of relief will come when
58:20the court case is done because this
58:22is something i did back in 2014 you
58:24figure
58:25so for me it's been the entirety of
58:29my my 20s has been attributed to this
58:31case and it's
58:32hard to know like what the repercussions
58:35are
58:36and i think when you're dealing with
58:37people that do come from
58:40wealth and power and money and in
58:42certain ways i know that she's
58:44probably been ostracized i don't think
58:46that she has i think
58:48what ends up happening is she ends up
58:50still being friends with
58:52a lot of powerful people within the
58:53silicon she does yeah
58:55absolutely so it's it's really it's
58:58really
58:58sad it really is and in fact there was
59:02some
59:03pardon my language bozo who had written
59:05about how we should still look up to her
59:08oh it's a draper yes yeah yes
59:11it was they asked draper who said oh
59:14she's a hero and uh white
59:17feminism that's what yeah uh
59:20that's uh yeah that's sort of a
59:22disturbing way to
59:24put it wow yeah it's uh
59:29it i i can i can appreciate that
59:32but um
59:36and okay any other questions before i
59:38ask
59:39erica uh to talk a little bit about
59:44um
59:47how the ethics ethics and
59:49entrepreneurship.org came out of this
1:00:00i'm sorry the what
1:00:05erica and tyler and i
1:00:09i don't know if they were who the other
1:00:11co-founders
1:00:13uh started an organization called
1:00:16ethics in entrepreneurship
1:00:19dot org do you want to go ahead and tell
1:00:22us a little bit about that erica
1:00:24yeah so essentially so i co-founded this
1:00:26with this uh
1:00:27another person i had known this guy luke
1:00:29um somehow
1:00:31that's right yeah somehow it got i
1:00:33didn't co-found it with tyler but he's
1:00:35on the outside
1:00:36i think there's some sort of article
1:00:38that has has
1:00:40translated that conflated that um
1:00:43but essentially after the experience
1:00:47working at their nose and seeing
1:00:48how basically when
1:00:52young organizations don't pay attention
1:00:54to ethics what
1:00:55the worst case scenario of that could
1:00:57look like and having worked with a lot
1:00:59of early stage startups
1:01:01while i was in hong kong
1:01:04it kind of made me realize that we
1:01:07needed to figure out a way
1:01:09for people to embed ethical questioning
1:01:13to foster ethical culture and to design
1:01:15ethical systems
1:01:17for tech startups and earlier that this
1:01:20sort of sentiment was embedded in the
1:01:22organization
1:01:24the easier it would be to stay in the
1:01:26long term
1:01:27and that was kind of the ethos of why i
1:01:30decided to start the organization
1:01:32i noticed that there was a lot of
1:01:34fragmentations
1:01:35on people working on these ideas but
1:01:38there wasn't sort of this overarching
1:01:40organization that tried to aggregate
1:01:42everything to
1:01:44to sort of facilitate that we're a young
1:01:46early organization
1:01:48we've taken a very slow approach which i
1:01:50think
1:01:51in the ethics world is an appropriate
1:01:53approach
1:01:54yes um but we'll be launching a lot of
1:01:57our inaugural programs probably within
1:01:59the next
1:02:00uh within the next few quarters so
1:02:03probably within the next six months
1:02:05we're launching quite a few different
1:02:07different initiatives and programs
1:02:09basically trying to figure out you know
1:02:11how
1:02:12when it comes to these new innovations
1:02:15that are exciting that can
1:02:17provide a lot of benefit to the world to
1:02:18make sure that we're not doing that at
1:02:20the cost of public safety
1:02:23and particularly when it comes to
1:02:26startups
1:02:27as they interface with regulated
1:02:28industries i think this is a really
1:02:30important conversation so that's kind of
1:02:33so this is obviously one of the areas
1:02:37that connected us uh because
1:02:40and it actually probably was these ideas
1:02:43were developing
1:02:45along the same time around the same time
1:02:48well actually
1:02:49for me as a recovering attorney kind of
1:02:52been in the works for a while
1:02:54but then moving out to california and
1:02:56having my own experiences out here
1:02:58really um you know
1:03:02when i heard about eric i reached out to
1:03:04her and said hey can we find a way
1:03:06you know to to work together on this and
1:03:11because one of the things we want to do
1:03:12here at crown college obviously is to
1:03:14promote ethical culture
1:03:16and erica funny story um
1:03:19i've you know i've been in contact with
1:03:22the center for humane technology
1:03:25too i think i've mentioned that to you
1:03:27and
1:03:28the students all know about uh what what
1:03:31we're working on with the tech ethics
1:03:33review board or
1:03:35turbo for short and i've been talking to
1:03:38a few folks at the center for humane
1:03:40technology
1:03:42about it and and this is a while ago
1:03:45but uh they
1:03:49so the response i got was why on earth
1:03:51would a tech company expose
1:03:53itself to this yeah and
1:03:56and i and i thought to myself well
1:04:00you know what maybe so you don't have to
1:04:01testify in for a congress
1:04:03but you know might be one response but
1:04:06then it did occur to me as you said
1:04:10you know what this needs to be from the
1:04:12ground up this needs to be
1:04:14starting at the very start-up level i
1:04:16think that's when where we're going to
1:04:18start seeing the changes
1:04:20in general yeah you're seeing a pretty
1:04:23big wave
1:04:24i i talk about this in terms of trends
1:04:26too uh
1:04:27you've noticed that there's a high
1:04:29emphasis placed on ethics amongst
1:04:31uh generation z and there's been a lot
1:04:35of reports
1:04:35done on this and i think it's because of
1:04:37uh
1:04:39having lived in a
1:04:42technology uh driven world like
1:04:45generation z has with mobile technology
1:04:48there's so much more transparency
1:04:49you're just inundated with all of the
1:04:51sort of egregious activity that kind of
1:04:53went on behind closed doors once upon a
1:04:55time ago
1:04:57people are really uh oriented to
1:05:00towards wanting to change that because
1:05:02it's not sustainable
1:05:04it's not at least in the past can't
1:05:07really survive in the future
1:05:11um so what does that shift look like and
1:05:13what does that change look like and
1:05:15and you know i think it'll be a lot of
1:05:17you guys and
1:05:18this sort of class that'll that'll
1:05:20really be the people who
1:05:22are who are sort of changing the status
1:05:24quo of what
1:05:25what was done before so
1:05:29i i've said this to this group before
1:05:30and i can't remember if i
1:05:32said this to you or not but i think this
1:05:35group
1:05:35is like is similar to the group uh
1:05:39the world's greatest generation in what
1:05:41they they're going through now
1:05:43in terms of those who grew up during the
1:05:46great depression
1:05:48out of the great depression came all
1:05:50these great social programs
1:05:51like medicare social security but it
1:05:55took
1:05:5530 years for them to come into effect
1:05:58it's going to take 20 to 30 years for
1:06:01this generation
1:06:02to come into power and make those
1:06:04changes so i think we're looking at the
1:06:06world's next greatest generation
1:06:11uh maya says uh
1:06:14maya are you still here would you like
1:06:16to go ahead and
1:06:18please go ahead and speak hello everyone
1:06:21my name is maya hernandez i'm your crown
1:06:23college programs coordinator and
1:06:24before i start erica thank you for
1:06:26coming tonight
1:06:28i really appreciate you sharing this
1:06:30information and students i hope you all
1:06:32are taking note because this is
1:06:35what your power looks like here erica is
1:06:37not
1:06:38too much older than you versus probably
1:06:40the very
1:06:41um wonderful but slightly older age
1:06:45range that
1:06:46um when i are in you know like this is
1:06:49cool thank you so much and i also want
1:06:51to thank you erica because i
1:06:53am from los angeles in what is now a
1:06:56health desert
1:06:57and i remember back in the day walgreens
1:06:59having these machines and thinking about
1:07:02literally the amount of lives you did
1:07:04save by coming forward so
1:07:06thank you um
1:07:10yeah like it is mind-blowing just what
1:07:12decisions people make of capital over
1:07:14human life
1:07:15is amazing um
1:07:18but what i want to talk about is social
1:07:21fiction
1:07:21and some other cool things about you all
1:07:24so
1:07:24how many of you received an email from
1:07:26me about um
1:07:28we've received an email about crown
1:07:30college events and so we have some free
1:07:32events coming up we have four movie
1:07:34screenings coming
1:07:36up and linda if you can copy and paste
1:07:38in the chat i will
1:07:39i will black klansmen coming up we have
1:07:43harriet
1:07:44um that are all free to all of you we
1:07:46have up to 500 movie screenings
1:07:48and fun fact who knows who
1:07:51started just a general description who
1:07:53started the concept of home security
1:07:56in america like who created that
1:07:59invention you can google it real quick
1:08:01and i want to see probably some surprise
1:08:02faces
1:08:03on the screen versus what we think about
1:08:06african-american surveillance
1:08:09and community those words tied together
1:08:12so
1:08:12black plants man is coming up on friday
1:08:16the 26th to the 27th and then harriet
1:08:20yes and so mark tell me about miss marie
1:08:23if i if i can just interrupt for one
1:08:25second i want uh eliza erica needs to go
1:08:27on to her
1:08:28next meeting and i just want to say
1:08:31please uh everybody give erica
1:08:33yes thank you so much yeah thank you
1:08:36guys thank you so
1:08:38and um yeah we will continue our
1:08:42conversation uh because uh
1:08:45uh i really i i just reached out to ro
1:08:48connor's office about this
1:08:50and i have some ideas anyway i'd love to
1:08:52run by you so i'll send you an invite
1:08:53for maybe like this coming friday again
1:08:56okay okay thank you
1:08:59thank you thank you america thank you
1:09:02erica
1:09:04um and so um we have carry it on
1:09:07sunday which is february 28th through
1:09:10march 1st
1:09:11and that is again 500 free screening so
1:09:14individual links sign up for that
1:09:16and then we have geekwe coming up march
1:09:18february 28th through march
1:09:205th and you'll all receive emails about
1:09:23those events and social fiction
1:09:25who's coming who knows about social
1:09:26fiction who's the crowley here raise
1:09:28your hand
1:09:29or show me your thumb all right yay okay
1:09:33for those who aren't crowning social
1:09:34fiction was the conference started
1:09:3615 years ago out of crown students and
1:09:39um
1:09:40crown students um wanted to combine
1:09:44what they were learning and what was
1:09:46once a two-quarter core course
1:09:48with their lovin okay think about this
1:09:49is like the 90s young late
1:09:522000s d and whatever video games were at
1:09:55the time
1:09:56and other tabletop games and realizing
1:09:58that
1:10:00crowns ethos of science and technology
1:10:02um
1:10:03through the lens of social society and
1:10:06politics so thinking about social
1:10:07justice and
1:10:08the different inequities and how people
1:10:10are lived or can live their lives
1:10:13um with the help or hindrance of science
1:10:16and technology
1:10:17was how our students were processing
1:10:19their experience and learning
1:10:21um about the science classes and how
1:10:24they want to
1:10:25use their knowledge for hopefully good
1:10:27versus evil in the world and so social
1:10:29fiction came out
1:10:30of that social fiction um then a few
1:10:33years
1:10:33later ended up being adopted by a
1:10:35provost officer now has permanent
1:10:37funding and social fiction conference is
1:10:39happening
1:10:40march 5th through the 7th and i hope
1:10:44you all come and join it is a free
1:10:45conference and the links are dropped
1:10:47in the chat and if any of you are
1:10:50interested we do have a few free social
1:10:52fiction
1:10:53social fiction masks and geek week mask
1:10:56for
1:10:56students living both on campus and off
1:10:59campus if you're living on campus you're
1:11:01getting your mask
1:11:02very soon crownies if you like a mask
1:11:05and you're in this class
1:11:07sign up anyway and i will send you a
1:11:09mask free of charge they're very cool
1:11:11they're flip-sided so there's two
1:11:13different designs and they're micro
1:11:15files something so they're a little bit
1:11:17better than what
1:11:19you know the cotton target
1:11:22maya i did ask uh students
1:11:26they are doing final presentations
1:11:29coming up and i've said to them actually
1:11:32i'm not sure if i made this clear i
1:11:34i'm pretty sure i posted this but i
1:11:36wanted to remind everybody
1:11:38that you don't have to do
1:11:41that is an option you can choose to do
1:11:45your final project as a part of the
1:11:48social fiction
1:11:50conference so you don't have to do it
1:11:52twice if you do it
1:11:53at the social fiction conference as a
1:11:56submission
1:11:56that counts as your final presentation
1:12:00and i yeah go ahead and i will make sure
1:12:03you get a good time
1:12:04so that'll be good um so but we do have
1:12:07some little outside guests from
1:12:10women who work in the star wars um
1:12:12industry
1:12:13to cosplay players who are official
1:12:16cosplay
1:12:17people who own a company and talk about
1:12:19cosplay through a lens of racial and
1:12:21social justice
1:12:23um we have a play by some of your peers
1:12:26so that's your workshop play looking at
1:12:28of course pandemics because that's on
1:12:30everybody's lived
1:12:31mind and experience this year um and
1:12:34some other cool things we are also
1:12:36screening at social fiction
1:12:38ready player one and um
1:12:41ghost in the shell the 1995 anime
1:12:43version so i love that anime
1:12:47yeah so you i hope you get involved um
1:12:50how many you are crownies
1:12:52by the way most there's
1:12:55oh okay a few pizza colin
1:12:59yeah okay uh so this uh
1:13:03so this class we offered to any denon
1:13:06crownies too
1:13:07yeah uh because we're trying you know
1:13:09we're working on
1:13:10getting the the center uh
1:13:14up running yeah and these are
1:13:17these are our current uh uh interns
1:13:21all right although fisa and sophia are
1:13:23our primary interns
1:13:25and uh they're helping to lead this
1:13:27class
1:13:28and to take the center forward
1:13:31and yeah you and maya maybe i'll send
1:13:34you an invite you and i can talk later
1:13:36in the week too
1:13:37to try and get some of the to do some
1:13:39synergistic work you know
1:13:41but no thank you all thank you for
1:13:43inviting me linda this was really cool
1:13:45i'm so glad i'm so glad you came here
1:13:47thank you nice to see human faces beyond
1:13:49my chewbacca my project manager behind
1:13:51me
1:13:52so thank you all so
1:13:55have a good time thank you thanks maya
1:14:00so let me see melissa we're gonna just
1:14:03go back to
1:14:04talking about she may have signed off
1:14:06already okay
1:14:08um anyway you're welcome to hang around
1:14:10or or leave
1:14:12we invited a few because uh a few
1:14:15extras because uh yeah sort of special
1:14:19speaker that's not an
1:14:20opportunity this is not somebody you're
1:14:22just gonna bump into in the street
1:14:24and i'm very grateful that you came
1:14:28so thank you thank you mark yeah
1:14:31and the thing is if you sign up for
1:14:3597b we're going to be lining up some
1:14:38more
1:14:39one of the programs that we would like
1:14:41to get running or get started
1:14:43at the center is have a monthly speaker
1:14:47come speak in the evening because i've
1:14:49got this fantastic
1:14:51network in silicon valley uh
1:14:55you know not not just women but men
1:14:58and women who are willing to come and
1:15:01speak
1:15:01to our students about what kind of
1:15:04future they would like to create
1:15:06and helping to create an ethical
1:15:10culture so
1:15:13yeah uh lots of uh
1:15:16that is definitely one of the things
1:15:18that we will be pursuing
1:15:19uh and one of the questions or one of
1:15:23the ways is how's the best way
1:15:25to go uh about doing that
1:15:29and that's one of the things we'll
1:15:30continue to discuss not only in this
1:15:32class but
1:15:33in 97b and in the time to come
1:15:37did any of you sign up for crown to
1:15:39present that crown
1:15:40or not yet
1:15:45okay yeah i'd encourage you to do that
1:15:48i've put the
1:15:49registration in there and
1:15:53maya hernandez if you wanted to submit
1:15:56something
1:15:57if you wanted to do your presentation so
1:15:59your presentation would be done on a
1:16:01saturday
1:16:03instead of during class time the
1:16:04following monday
1:16:06so it's uh
1:16:09hold on maya hernandez let's see if i
1:16:12have her
1:16:13she i'm sure she put her email here
1:16:16oh by the way um i had not heard about
1:16:20this
1:16:22but this reference to
1:16:26the white feminist savior conflicts
1:16:29have you guys heard about that
1:16:33wow okay that's uh
1:16:36it's not something i'm uh but i had
1:16:39heard about
1:16:40but you know that's one of the things i
1:16:41love about teaching
1:16:43at ucsc and talking others is i get to
1:16:46learn all these different things too
1:16:48so and also
1:16:52a reminder uh presenting at the social
1:16:56fiction conference is resume builder
1:16:59it looks really good on your resume
1:17:03so present as a group and you can get to
1:17:06put her on
1:17:09also it's it's an
1:17:12opportunity to get to know others
1:17:16in the community networking uh marina
1:17:19thank you
1:17:20oh thank you for yeah maya thank you
1:17:24okay so there is maya's
1:17:27uh uh email
1:17:30and she's offered to uh get you a slot
1:17:35to present and i really would urge you
1:17:38in fact i'm sorry i meant to tell
1:17:42i meant to tell uh have fisa and sophia
1:17:45tell you
1:17:46i get i'll give you extra credit i will
1:17:49give you
1:17:50extra credit for presenting at the uc
1:17:53at the social fiction conference
1:17:58so to encourage you so if you need a few
1:18:01extra points a little bit of a bump up
1:18:03please consider doing that
1:18:06uh let's see anything else
1:18:10it is fun and it's low pressure
1:18:13really it's believe me it's really low
1:18:16pressure
1:18:18so we just try and have a lot of fun
1:18:20with it
1:18:21talk to each other it's it's not it's
1:18:24not formal you don't have to
1:18:28yeah you don't have to do overly formal
1:18:32so any other
1:18:35yeah you present your final you what you
1:18:38do
1:18:38is you pick a final project for your
1:18:40presentation for this class
1:18:42is that correct you've picked a topic
1:18:45yeah you present instead of presenting
1:18:49it in class
1:18:50all right you presented at the social
1:18:52fiction conference
1:18:54everything's going to be taped anyway at
1:18:56the social fiction conference
1:18:57i'm planning on attending the social
1:18:59fiction conference
1:19:01so and normally normally i give a
1:19:04presentation
1:19:05this year i've been so
1:19:08inundated with uh grant proposals and
1:19:12trying to take care of other things i
1:19:14did not have a chance to put in my own
1:19:16presentation
1:19:18but oh you know what later in this
1:19:21course in the next few weeks
1:19:23i will be giving you the presentation
1:19:26that i gave at one of the social fiction
1:19:28conferences
1:19:30called from corpse to corpse like
1:19:33dead body corpse to corporations you get
1:19:36it
1:19:36okay from corpse to corpse legal person
1:19:39yeah
1:19:40so anyway uh that'll be coming up i
1:19:43think in the next week or two
1:19:45uh and you can pre oh
1:19:48okay you can pre-record these and have
1:19:52thank you my i did not know that
1:19:56uh you can pre-record your presentation
1:20:00and then have a live uh question and
1:20:02answer yes
1:20:03the question and answer session
1:20:07or you can present live at the
1:20:09conference
1:20:10either way so yeah feesa make sure to
1:20:15note to sophia that we're
1:20:19giving students extra credit if they
1:20:20sign up for this
1:20:22too if they do their final presentation
1:20:25does that answer your question
1:20:27mark
1:20:31okay okay so
1:20:35did i was a little concerned now i got
1:20:39uh i had met with erica last week
1:20:42because
1:20:43uh she was actually assisting on this
1:20:46proposal
1:20:48that we were talking about yeah thank
1:20:49you mark
1:20:53um and so i was just able you know what
1:20:57i asked her for the moment on friday and
1:20:59she said yes
1:21:02i pro i know i can get more speakers if
1:21:04we have
1:21:07you know give them a little bit more
1:21:09notice
1:21:10but um do you
1:21:14see how her talk
1:21:17intersected and was aligned with
1:21:20the readings
1:21:26okay anybody kind of want to tie them
1:21:30together for us
1:21:34um i mean the readings i mean
1:21:37okay they're like multiple but like one
1:21:39of them sort of gave like
1:21:41a more um like outer
1:21:44view of things in like um
1:21:47how i mean it sort of mentioned like she
1:21:50said like the
1:21:51now the fact that like um you know she
1:21:54was like you know this
1:21:55con woman who like um it's like how much
1:21:58harder it will make like future
1:21:59females like you know becoming ceos
1:22:03so uh she did mention that and like the
1:22:04reading did mention that
1:22:06um like it gave a different perspective
1:22:09of like
1:22:10um like there's like that one phenom
1:22:12feminist one where it's like um
1:22:14she also mentioned like uh like the
1:22:16reading was like um
1:22:18okay so rather than like these uh female
1:22:20ceos are like just these
1:22:22um like them owning up to mistakes like
1:22:24they point out that like um
1:22:26a man might not be called out on it and
1:22:29like um
1:22:30like uh also erica did sort of mention
1:22:32that um
1:22:33so like uh that was
1:22:36um that was the perspective
1:22:40anybody else in the women
1:22:43and tech or the women in tech
1:22:47presentation slides uh they mentioned
1:22:50how
1:22:51um 56 of women leave
1:22:54originally at the mid level um
1:22:58depending on like their work experience
1:23:00and
1:23:01based on like uh difficulty to advance
1:23:05in leadership roles
1:23:06and um erica's like just how she
1:23:11couldn't get her voice heard like that's
1:23:16i you know i didn't think to ask her i i
1:23:19didn't think to ask but i couldn't help
1:23:21but wondering if she was
1:23:22dismissed partly because she was a young
1:23:25woman
1:23:28uh nylas asked okay yeah maya says when
1:23:31the big
1:23:31march 6 this big day the conference is
1:23:34march 5th through
1:23:357th so yeah you have time and
1:23:39your presentations you were going to
1:23:40give your presentations i think until
1:23:42that final week anyway so you can get it
1:23:46out of the way a day or two early
1:23:52so uh very good margaret
1:23:55thank you yeah thank you for pointing
1:23:58that out
1:23:59and uh did you see the
1:24:03article about toxic
1:24:07the lean in feminism being toxic
1:24:13that was one of the supplemental
1:24:15readings i had given you
1:24:17what did you guys think about that
1:24:29unfortunate about to talk
1:24:32about the lean in feminism
1:24:36uh yes like um
1:24:42like
1:24:44i do you know guys i don't know if you
1:24:46know the expression lean in
1:24:48was a book uh by sheryl sandberg
1:24:52who was i can't get the number now she's
1:24:54still the ceo of yahoo
1:25:04do not know but i think they mentioned
1:25:06that in the article
1:25:07okay okay
1:25:11so all right so
1:25:14you guys like this guest speaker uh if
1:25:17you use
1:25:18if you sign up for crown 97b would you
1:25:21like to see speakers like that
1:25:29it's not just obviously going to be
1:25:31about women
1:25:34we have some other we have other people
1:25:36we have uh
1:25:38men from different industries too i have
1:25:40a film
1:25:41maker from um
1:25:45san diego would be willing to speak to
1:25:47the class we've got
1:25:49i have a friend who is uh the leader of
1:25:53uh
1:25:54well it's it's black in the open
1:25:57or bito.org
1:26:01so uh he's willing to speak the only
1:26:05thing is he's in
1:26:06england and this time the day is awful
1:26:10i mean it's something like three or four
1:26:13am there so he's not going to get up
1:26:15then
1:26:16to speak to everybody but we can arrange
1:26:18to
1:26:19have uh we can arrange to
1:26:22have them speak another time and if
1:26:25there is anybody would like to see
1:26:28speak please drop a note uh to me
1:26:32to visa to sophia and we'll see if we
1:26:34can get them
1:26:35because
1:26:39because people really do enjoy being
1:26:41heard
1:26:42and they want to inspire you
1:26:46so uh pizza was there anything else we
1:26:50needed to
1:26:51cover this evening um
1:26:54no just a reminder that rough draft
1:26:58for the blog post is due before class
1:27:01this wednesday
1:27:02so don't forget now oh i did
1:27:06also want to encourage you all
1:27:09if you haven't to get a linkedin profile
1:27:13how many of you have linkedin profiles
1:27:18no anybody have a lincoln profile
1:27:22okay few people
1:27:27so i'm going to share my screen with you
1:27:29for a moment
1:27:30all right because this is one of the
1:27:32things that we're doing
1:27:34we kind of do okay
1:27:38i encourage you to uh
1:27:42sign up for linkedin and then also
1:27:45to sign up uh on the link for the
1:27:48linkedin group
1:27:53for the center for
1:27:57applied ethics uh
1:28:00humanities god i haven't checked this in
1:28:02a while
1:28:03so hold on
1:28:10oh posts here we go
1:28:16so uh we've got
1:28:20although it's 160 followers we've got
1:28:24we've got a lot more
1:28:27uh members okay super administrator view
1:28:31we've got
1:28:32well over 1200 members
1:28:40okay
1:28:46okay visitors updates
1:28:49followers that's what okay
1:28:54and we need to try and build that up
1:29:00let's see now hold on super
1:29:03administrator view
1:29:04administrative tools okay
1:29:14oh i can't find the number here but it
1:29:16is
1:29:17uh well over 1200
1:29:20and growing
1:29:26and this is where we are hoping
1:29:30to post some of your blog entries too
1:29:36it's it i'll tell you when employers
1:29:39are looking for uh
1:29:43people to hire they are going to look to
1:29:45see what sort of
1:29:47soci social what what do you do on
1:29:50social media
1:29:52and posting on something like the insta
1:29:54on the center for applied ethics and
1:29:56values
1:29:57shows that you are a thinker
1:30:01serious you're a scholar you know that
1:30:03you think about these things
1:30:06it reflects well so i would urge you all
1:30:09to think about that and get your
1:30:12linkedin profile up and running apply
1:30:16actually you know you should be able to
1:30:18join without a problem
1:30:20um i have nila fayez who's
1:30:24okay but it's called this
1:30:27yeah let me share it with you again
1:30:32if you go to linkedin
1:30:35it is called the center for applied
1:30:37ethics and values in emerging
1:30:38technologies
1:30:44okay you can see sophia uh
1:30:48fisa nyla myself
1:30:51chris reed we're all super
1:30:53administrators
1:30:54so if you what you do is you have to
1:30:58apply to be in the group just ask if you
1:31:00can be admitted
1:31:02and one of us will admit you
1:31:05we don't necessarily want to make it an
1:31:08open group because in the past when we
1:31:10had done that
1:31:12unfortunately people started spamming
1:31:16putting up posts oh okay could you read
1:31:19okay margaret could you see it
1:31:22or was i able to read it to you okay
1:31:25yeah i got the name down thank you okay
1:31:28very good
1:31:29all right well there's a session on
1:31:31wednesday with fisa and sophia
1:31:34about your blog entries uh
1:31:37please make sure uh if you're
1:31:40if you if you want the extra credit and
1:31:44you know sign up for the
1:31:47[Music]
1:31:49social fiction conference take a
1:31:50snapshot of the page and send it to fisa
1:31:53sophia and myself to make sure you get
1:31:56the extra cut credit
1:31:58and you can do your presentation then i
1:32:00have a question
1:32:02sure so february 23rd is the
1:32:05sign like the deadline the deadline for
1:32:07the sign up or like you have to submit
1:32:09the actual like presentation
1:32:12no it's just the sign up it's just the
1:32:14deadline for the sign
1:32:16okay okay so yeah no you don't have to
1:32:18have the presentation then
1:32:19okay a day up cool
1:32:22thank you okay
1:32:27all right does anybody have any other
1:32:30questions
1:32:35if not uh if you do hang around i'm
1:32:39to stop recording and

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