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Episode 5 - Pam Hupp Part 1: Betsy Faria — Transcript

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0:00welcome everybody my name is Gary
0:02Fortney and this is the
0:05[Music]
0:14trend the trend is our weekly podcast
0:17brought on by Trend media LLC and Trend
0:20media is based in the St Louis region we
0:23talk about different issues affecting
0:25True Crime law enforcement Trends and
0:27overall Trends in the region all
0:29different topics on different days and
0:31this is the beginning of Pam hup month
0:33this is the first episode of three
0:35regarding an individual known as Pam hup
0:37and those of us that know about the case
0:39we call it the Pam Hub Saga it's a saga
0:42what taken place with this individual
0:43regarding several murders that have
0:45taken place in the St Louis area
0:47specifically St Charles Lincoln County
0:50and St Louis County that's not a murder
0:52we have what's called a suspicious death
0:54and this is the first episode the
0:55episodes are going to focus on three
0:57individuals the first one is an
0:58individual named bet Faria Betsy lived
1:01in Lincoln County Missouri the next is
1:03Lewis grum gumpenberger uh Lewis uh was
1:08killed at a house in St Charles in the
1:10city of oallen and the last episode
1:13which will be the final will be on uh an
1:15individual named Shirley Newman even
1:17though the last name's Newman Shirley
1:18Newman is Pam Hup's mother and that be
1:21investigated by the St Louis County uh
1:23Missouri police department and we'll
1:25have a special guest for the Shirley
1:26Newman case who will be the head of the
1:28St Louis County homicide unit whose unit
1:30is investigating uh that death so today
1:32let me do an introduction of the guest
1:34for the podcast regarding the death of
1:37Betsy friia first we have uh Brian Hy
1:40retired Brian uh is a retired lieutenant
1:42from the ofala Missouri Police
1:43Department Brian was a supervisor in
1:46charge of the oalen police detective
1:49Bureau and his Department got involved
1:51with the Pam hup Saga when one of his
1:54investigators or detectives actually was
1:56on What's called the major case Squad
1:58and work the death of Betsy FIA have
2:00Alli vote Ali vote is the producer of
2:02the trend podcast and works for Trend
2:04media LLC Alli is here as a guest who's
2:07going to be basically asking Brian
2:09questions about the case that happened
2:10in Lincoln County I'll throw in some
2:12opinions some knowledge I have about the
2:14case and where the case started where it
2:17ended up and then we're going to talk
2:18about how the case ultimately lose to
2:20the second episode will be the death of
2:22Lewis gumpenberger so anyways let's
2:24start a little bit with the background
2:26what date and time did this happen Ally
2:28the Betsy frea murder took place on
2:30December 27th of 2011 so 2011 we're
2:34talking several years ago and that's
2:35when she died that's when uh was what
2:38was the crime was it an accident natural
2:41suicide what was it so initially there
2:43was a question as to whether or not it
2:45was a suicide but it was pretty clear
2:47that it was a homicide yeah and in the
2:50state of Missouri and throughout
2:52homicide is not necessarily a crime all
2:54homicide is the killing of one person by
2:56another and uh that goes on to my
2:58students who I teach it's part of me
3:00being a college professor what is the
3:02crime associated with homicide in state
3:03of Missouri it's murder and manslaughter
3:05so ultimately from the thought of being
3:07a suicide turned into be the murder of
3:09Betsy friia which is a homicide that was
3:12investigated by the major K Squad and so
3:14the investigation took place uh Brian Hy
3:17one of his investigators from oallen
3:19Police Department was part of the major
3:20Cas Squad and responded to the scene out
3:22in Lincoln County regarding the death of
3:24bety friia so Brian can you start a
3:26little bit about the response there and
3:28then alie's going to ask some questions
3:29I'll as we go along the way sure so one
3:32of the benefits of the major K Squad at
3:35least for uh for my detectives you know
3:37we we handled all our own homicides and
3:41officer involved shootings and custody
3:43deaths but uh my detectives got a lot of
3:46good experience by being part of the
3:47major K Squad I was a part of the major
3:49K Squad started out as an investigator
3:51when I was a detective I was a deputy
3:53report officer and eventually a deputy
3:56commander and uh generally when an
3:58agency Act AC Ates major case they have
4:01specific officers or investigators that
4:04are kind of tasked with the roles of
4:06finding a deputy report officer finding
4:08a deputy Commander finding the
4:09investigators and I remember getting a
4:11call from one of those roster Personnel
4:14folks and was asking for investigators
4:17to investigate this homicide and we sent
4:19one of our detectives major K Squad is a
4:22collective group of officers and
4:24investigators from departments in
4:26Illinois St Louis City St Louis County
4:28St Charles County and they combined to
4:31do investigative work regarding
4:32homicides that occur in all these
4:34jurisdictions and they're called in by
4:36the local law enforcement agency and the
4:38major case Squad works on it a
4:39collective effort with multiple
4:41investigators and after so much time
4:42period if it's not solved they turn the
4:43case back over to the host uh agency to
4:46continue on so one of Brian's
4:47investigators to the homicide of Betsy
4:50FIA Brian can you provide a little bit
4:52about maybe the Senor set it up for us
4:54about what he discovered there cuz you
4:55got a little bit of knowledge about the
4:57case about what happened sure so
5:00Lincoln County who originally responded
5:02showed up they obviously located
5:05multiple stab wounds to the victim Betsy
5:08Faria and like any in investigation you
5:10always start with what we call the
5:12inside and work the way out right when
5:14we talk about possible suspects we
5:16always always going to start looking at
5:18the people that are family that are
5:20intimately involved with with the victim
5:22because more times not that is generally
5:25who your suspect is and then once you're
5:27able to clear those people you're the
5:29family relatives friends then you start
5:31expanding out unless you have specific
5:34information that leads you elsewhere so
5:36for them to kind of look at Russ
5:38initially that's not a surprise I mean
5:40again so Russ friia was Betsy's husband
5:43and one of the things that I know that
5:45they did early on was get a a detailed
5:49timeline Alibi from from Russ as far as
5:51what he had been doing leading up to to
5:54the homicide and Russ is the one who
5:55found his wife dead correct yeah so uh
5:58he was the one that came home discovered
6:00his wife I believe initially he thought
6:03that she had committed suicide because
6:05she had attempted suicide in the past
6:07she had stage four cancer a lot of the
6:09wounds were not visible initially
6:12because of the clothes and the items I
6:14believe she had like a blanket on her
6:16and things like that and he did call 911
6:18believe that his wife committed suicide
6:20and that's when law enforcement showed
6:22up let me talk about uh the
6:24investigation on scene of a dead body uh
6:26law enforcement goes to the scene per
6:28Missouri State statute Law Enforcement
6:30Officers homicide detectives are not
6:32allowed to move manipulate or change the
6:35position of the body the body belongs to
6:37the Corner's office or the medical
6:38examiner so while we'll go there look at
6:40the body and make an assessment we
6:41cannot take anything move anything it's
6:43not till the corner medical examiner
6:44gets there that law enforcement is
6:47allowed to be involved in the body
6:49investigation itself now in some limited
6:51circumstances you may get permission
6:53from the corner medical examiner to
6:55maybe retrieve a wallet or get some item
6:57out of the victim's pocket for identific
6:59ation purposes but generally speaking it
7:01has to be authorized by the corner
7:03medical examiner and then uh we don't
7:05have any authority to do so so we're
7:06very keen about that so uh he finds his
7:09wife with multiple injuries we call
7:11traumatic injuries suspicious in nature
7:13he calls it as a suicide and please
7:16respond Ellie you want to pick up from
7:17there yeah so she was found with is it
7:2055 stab wounds I think in total yeah I
7:23believe that's what the medical examiner
7:25determined that's a lot of tab wounds um
7:28do that signify anything from your
7:31experience yeah and I would say that
7:32that from talking to my investigator at
7:34the time that was on the major K Squad
7:36you that would probably be another
7:37reason why they looked really closely at
7:39Russ the husband because the O what we
7:42call Overkill that many stab wounds
7:44generally means there's there's some
7:46kind of emotion some kind of passion
7:48there there's a usually a personal
7:50connection unless it's somebody that
7:51might have some kind of psychological
7:53disorders like maybe they're
7:54schizophrenic or suffering some
7:57psychosis where you you're going to see
7:59like this Overkill so for them to really
8:02focus on Russ again was was not not out
8:06of the ordinary well that's called the
8:07controlled frenzy if it goes wild
8:09sometimes with the the amount of death
8:11let me give you an example somebody
8:12comes home they're stabbed one time and
8:14found dead there and it looks like
8:16things were taken usually a robbery or a
8:19burglary suspect will come in try to
8:21take property or get what they want and
8:22leave as quick as they can they might do
8:24one Stab Wound and make a quick Escape
8:26therefore to leave without getting
8:27caught and when you see multiple m
8:29multiple traumatic injuries either two
8:31things they wanted to make sure the
8:32person was dead all right or they wanted
8:35to make sure that they showed the
8:37disdain or they wanted to show the
8:39violent nature of how they felt towards
8:41the victim to do that much uh much
8:43damage to the body so Ellie pick it up
8:45yeah so um where where were the stab
8:48wounds located so initially the a lot of
8:51the stab wounds you could not see like
8:53we we discussed and the majority of
8:56those stab wounds are were postmortem so
8:58she had already passed away had died
9:01when those majority of those stab wounds
9:03had been inflicted she had multiple stab
9:04wounds to the neck area to her chest
9:07area I mean really all over her body
9:09there were multiple stab wounds let me
9:11talk real quick about he said postmortem
9:13there's three different types of
9:14injuries that are sustain to a body
9:16regarding uh when they die there's a
9:18premortem which means it happens before
9:20death all right there's perimortem PE
9:24perimortem which means it's just just
9:26the time at death but they're still life
9:28so Port is just the time of death and
9:30then there's postmortem injuries when
9:31you have postmortem injuries on a body
9:34all right if I have seen being a
9:35homicide detective and I was a homicide
9:37detect for about 15 years out of my
9:39career at the St Louis County Police
9:40Department we look at the nature of the
9:41injuries the violent nature of the
9:43injuries and is it pre Perry or
9:46postmortem injuries so anyways go ahead
9:47Ellie yeah we can talk a little bit
9:49about the 911 call I think is pretty
9:51significant to this case Brian do you
9:53want to talk a little bit about how that
9:55played into the case sure there's a
9:57retired lieutenant named TR harpster who
10:00kind of came up with the 911 uh analysis
10:04and his his belief is that there's
10:08certain indicators on a 911 call that
10:11can either indicate that someone is the
10:14murderer or is not the murderer and I
10:16know that the specifically the Lincoln
10:19County detectives at the time had been
10:21to his course before and I know they
10:23focused really heavily on this 911 call
10:26and I I've been to Tracy's class I I
10:29actually use uh his his theory and his
10:32training in our in our investigations I
10:35think the difference is that you can't
10:37focus on just one piece you know
10:39everything everything plays a role and
10:42every everything's important but you
10:43can't just focus on one specific thing
10:45and I I think where things kind of got
10:47off the rails in this specific
10:49investigation is they they listen to
10:51this 911 call and if you listen to it it
10:54definitely does not sound real uh it
10:56doesn't sound legitimate it doesn't
10:58sound it doesn't sound like a natural
11:01reaction somebody would have so for them
11:02to kind of clue in on that and kind of
11:05say you know this just doesn't sound
11:07right I could see where they would do
11:08that because I would do the same thing
11:10but the the problem is you can't just
11:11focus on that alone and I I think that's
11:14really where the investigation kind of
11:16got off the rails let's talk a little
11:17bit about the evidence was there any
11:20pieces of evidence that really stood out
11:22when investigators were looking yeah so
11:24and like Gary was saying you know the
11:26major K Squad when they were activated I
11:28believe they were out there for days
11:29which is a general kind of timeline for
11:31a major case they'll they'll usually
11:33stay activated for up to 5 days they can
11:35get extended but generally 5 days is
11:37kind of the typical response time they
11:39did end up turning that investigation
11:41back over to the Lincoln County
11:42Sheriff's department at at that time and
11:44they are the ones actually pursued
11:46criminal charges against Russ he was not
11:49charged with a crime during the time
11:50major K Squad was activated that was
11:53after they left you know and some of the
11:55the evidence that you know they they did
11:57a very good job they got a good good
11:59timeline from Russ you know uh one of
12:01the big things that we always talk about
12:03is you got to get that timeline you have
12:04to establish that alibi Russ's Alibi was
12:07that he was playing basically games
12:09watching movies with with multiple
12:11friends in all Fallen actually and based
12:13on his timeline and based on the
12:15physical evidence of Betsy FIA there
12:19really was no way that he could have
12:21committed the murder one of the original
12:23officers on scene said that Betsy showed
12:27signs of rigor mortise now if he had
12:29just gotten home and stabbed her to
12:31death there would be no way that there
12:34would be any rigor mortise within the
12:36time of him calling 911 to the time that
12:39uh law enforcement responded let's talk
12:40about rigor mortise real quick uh what
12:42is rigor mortise a rigor mortise is a
12:44stiffening of the joints after death now
12:46rigor mortis starts it starts to stiffen
12:49rigor Morse becomes fixed which means
12:51the joints don't move and then Rick
12:53morus goes away out of the body after so
12:55long so you can have early rigor fixed
12:58rigor and the rigor that is dissipating
13:00out of a body so if riger starting that
13:02means that the body is beginning to
13:05stiffen and it's the joints uh based
13:07upon enzymes and so it's stiffening and
13:10there's another terminology it's called
13:12liver mortis not liver but liver Li IV o
13:14r mortis which is the pulling the bud at
13:16blood at the lowest point of gravity in
13:18the body that'll be talked about in a
13:19subsequent episode regarding fentic
13:22terms and terminology and death
13:23investigations anyways I'll go and
13:25continue I just want to describe what
13:26rigor mortise is and if rigor mortise
13:28start that means the body had been there
13:29for a little bit of an extended period
13:30of time and and just to continue on your
13:32question uh I know one of the original
13:35officers that showed up you know was
13:36said that body was cool to the touch
13:38which again if she had just been
13:40murdered that that would not be the case
13:43so there was a lot of things as far as
13:45Russ's Alibi as far as where he was what
13:48he was doing the time that he got home
13:50and the time of death the murder had to
13:52happen when he had four Alibi Witnesses
13:56who were saying that he was with them at
13:58the time of the murder so it seems like
14:00detectives were able to establish a
14:02pretty clear Alibi why do you think that
14:04they kept pursuing him as a suspect
14:06that's a good question here sure this is
14:08where we kind of you know we we talk
14:10about we get focused on our own theories
14:13our own beliefs instead of following the
14:15facts and that's where you know you
14:17you'll see in some of these
14:19investigations where investigators will
14:21try to shove a square peg into a round
14:23hole and I'm not very good at geometry
14:25but I know that can't happen you can't
14:27do that let's use a hammer hard enough
14:29well yeah and I guess you you bust bust
14:31bust it up I don't know if bust is a
14:33word but we'll use it Sarah look it up
14:35Sarah's working a board today SAR and
14:37and and that's what happened in this
14:39case you you had investigators that were
14:41so dead set that Russ had done this that
14:44they really ignored a lot of evidence
14:47that really exonerated him he had a
14:49receipt of where he bought food where he
14:52got uh dog food where he went to the
14:54store the drive time that he said that
14:56he left his friend's house in ofal to
14:59the time that that he got there that he
15:01had no blood on on his clothes there was
15:03no blood on him for somebody getting
15:05stabbed 55 times you would think that
15:07there would be castoff there would be
15:08some kind of blood transfer some kind of
15:10evidence transfer and there was none of
15:12that let's talk about cast off castoff
15:14is where you have the transfer of blood
15:16from the source location to another
15:18object and the evidence of stabbings or
15:21some type of sharp objects you're going
15:23to go down thrust with the knife or
15:25sharp object and when you bring the
15:27knife back you're going to have blood
15:29coming off of the blade that's going to
15:30go on to a vertical surfaces and castoff
15:33means you can pretty much show the
15:34location of where the death or the
15:37actual traumatic stabbings occurred so
15:39you're going to have downward thrust
15:40bringing a knife up blood coming off the
15:42knife or object into a wall or some of
15:44the area that's where you can pinpoint
15:45that's what cast off is so well they
15:47didn't find any blood in in shower
15:50drains or sink drains or or anywhere
15:52else really in the home I mean how how
15:55can you explain that right so one of the
15:57theories for the Sheriff's Department at
15:59the time and I I think it's important to
16:00note that the the sheriff at the time is
16:03no longer there there's a new sheriff
16:04there's a new prosecutor I believe all
16:07the investigators that were there at the
16:09time are no longer with with the
16:10sheriff's department one of the beliefs
16:12that they had was that he had to clean
16:14up you know he he if he had no blood on
16:16him where what happened to his clothes
16:18what how how did he not have any blood
16:19on him and one of the things that that
16:21the major K Squad did is they actually
16:23called out the St Charles County crime
16:25scene unit to do the crime scene
16:26processing and I I know one of the
16:29individuals who responded that she's
16:31she's no longer crime scene but uh she
16:34uh she does some other stuff kind of
16:36related oh by the way I did get word
16:38from the Control Room bust is in fact a
16:40word from our brain room so the control
16:42room comes forward I want to leave that
16:44in the podcast because whenever I get a
16:45chance to find Brian wrong on a certain
16:47individual topic I relish the fact and I
16:49relish the moment let me sit here in a
16:51beam of light right for the record I
16:53didn't say it wasn't I said I wasn't
16:55sure if it was working okay I was sure
16:57it was so the brain room and the control
16:58room found out for me so let's continue
17:00on continuing on her first name is Amy I
17:02I I don't want to say her whole name but
17:04she is amazing at what she did she was
17:06an amazing crime scene investigator they
17:08pulled the drain traps they looked for
17:11blood evidence they looked for for water
17:14and there was there was none of that
17:16there was no blood there was no water no
17:18no nothing that indicated that there was
17:20any kind of cleanup that that he took
17:22any kind of shower or bathe a phenomenal
17:25job on on the initial call out and
17:27that's where later on when Lincoln
17:29County took over there was some evidence
17:31and I'll put in quotation marks that
17:33came up that tried to indicate that Russ
17:36had cleaned up and and done these things
17:38there were some statements made in court
17:40that years later that oh well now I
17:42remember I do remember seeing water in
17:45in in the sink or in the drain you know
17:47those are are I will say dubious at best
17:50when when you go years later explain a
17:52little bit more I want to get out
17:54dubious yeah what do you think what what
17:55word would you place a dubious
17:57questionable all right there we go okay
17:59questionable evidence that was found by
18:01law enforcement or reported by law
18:02enforcement reported years later to help
18:04fit a narrative that Russ had committed
18:06this crime and those are always
18:09concerning when when you have a unit
18:12that I I've worked with hand inand on
18:13multiple serious crimes who have done a
18:16great job and said there's nothing there
18:17and then years later you have others
18:19coming in saying oh well yeah there was
18:21who do you believe never have the
18:23evidence fit the narrative all right the
18:26narrative you make sure the evidence
18:27okay subst stti so anyway one place that
18:30they did find blood was on a pair of
18:33slippers Russ's slippers they were
18:35thrown back into the closet was there
18:37anything out of the ordinary about those
18:40yeah and and those are things too that
18:42you know when when you look at the
18:43pictures of the slipper you know if if
18:46Russ was wearing slippers where I'll ask
18:49you where would you expect to find Blood
18:51on the slippers I mean going off of what
18:53Gary was talking about cast off and and
18:57what's
18:59what's coming out towards you I mean I
19:02would expect to find blood
19:04on on the tops and and the bottoms right
19:07if there's a lot of blood that that if
19:08I'm wearing slippers I'm walk I'm going
19:10to walk through it right and when we
19:12talk about cast off cast off doesn't
19:13look like you dunked it in a bucket
19:16right it spots and you know we you could
19:18probably have a whole episode on
19:20velocity and all those different
19:21terminologies when it comes to blood
19:23spatter or analysis it's blood spat
19:26anybody says blood Splat okay they could
19:28that wrom wrong of my exams in my
19:30college class did I get that right you
19:32said SP good job Brian thanks just
19:34wanted to make sure and if you look at
19:35the picture it really looks like
19:37somebody had literally dipped this
19:39slipper into blood and if if Russ had
19:43worn that slipper why would he had put
19:45that back in his closet when all his
19:47other clothes would have had blood and
19:49they recovered no other pieces of
19:51clothing that had blood on it so one
19:52could speculate that it almost looked
19:54like somebody was trying to quote
19:56unquote frame Russ by taking slipper
19:59dipping in in Blood and then placing it
20:01back into his closet when you said frame
20:04that's kind of concerning absolutely
20:05especially if you're Russ and who would
20:07have the opportunity to do that so you
20:10know and one of and one of the things
20:12that we always look at too you know and
20:13especially when it goes to trial you
20:15know most people want to know Ally if
20:17you were sitting on a jury and they
20:19showed all this evidence what would be
20:21the one thing that you would want to
20:22know who else might have had an
20:24opportunity okay how about the why how
20:26about a motive so those would things
20:29that we would look at from an
20:30investigative standpoint why would
20:32somebody want to kill Betsy Faria now
20:34the theory with Russ is that several
20:37days prior to the homicide Betsy had a
20:39life insurance policy that she signed as
20:43the beneficiary her friend Pam Hub
20:45theory is that Russ found out about this
20:48became enraged and in a moment of anger
20:52stabbed her 55 times now who else has a
20:55motive well Pam hup seems like she would
20:57have a a pretty good motive there yeah
21:00it's
21:01$150,000 motive and you know those are
21:04things that that as investigators we
21:06have to look at you know why would
21:08somebody want to do this who who
21:10benefits the most from this does Russ
21:12really benefit if he knows that this
21:15life insurance policy has been
21:16transferred over to Pam Hub what's the
21:19benefit of him killing her when he knows
21:21when she dies Pam gets the money so and
21:23those are things that they really kind
21:25of focused on early on you know was it
21:27an AC of because of this transfer of a
21:30beneficiary you know Betsy had attempted
21:32suicide before that's why Russ believed
21:36that she had committed suicide because
21:37she had attempted it before she was a
21:39stage for cancer she knew she wasn't
21:42going to survive there are things that
21:44if you look at the the flip side of it
21:46are there things that explains why Russ
21:48reacted and thought the way he did I I
21:50look at this case uh being very
21:52interesting because we don't want law
21:55enforcement to make sure the death fits
21:57their narrative okay we got to get to
21:59the truth I questioned some of the
22:01things law enforcement I think Brian
22:02agrees with that some of the things that
22:03law enforcement did and let me talk
22:05about the corrections uh that took place
22:08uh the uh prosecuting attorney Mike Wood
22:10in Lincoln County saw a need maybe to
22:12get some additional training to Lincoln
22:14County Sheriff's Office and uh we were
22:16hired through Vista Law Enforcement
22:17Training to uh provide a multitude years
22:20of training to the Lincoln County
22:22Sheriff's Office for the road Patrol
22:23officers and investigators which we have
22:25been doing now for almost what four
22:26years Brian yeah and uh I've met a lot
22:29of good uh detectives and officers which
22:31there are a lot of good ones out there
22:32they've taken the training and they've
22:33utilized it I think in a very positive
22:35manner we're talking about a while right
22:37from the previous people so a lot of
22:39people there were not investigators so
22:41these this is a previous crew that was
22:43involved in this investigation right
22:44Brian yeah and you know really if you
22:46look at the past elections when Sheriff
22:49Herold ran when he was elected when Mike
22:51bu ran as a prosecutor really A lot of
22:54it was based on the belief that this
22:56Russ FIA investigation and prosecution
22:59was was mismanaged and you know I I
23:02believe based off what I know that that
23:04was a big reason why they got elected in
23:062020 and in 2024 and we're trying to
23:08fill the Gap here with our training and
23:10Consulting to help them out a little bit
23:11we've done Consulting there for cold
23:13cases as well as R training they've been
23:15very receptive and we've formed some
23:16friendships along the way there too with
23:18the training we're doing so Al let you
23:19continue on sure um going back to some
23:22of the evidence that was found there was
23:24a handwritten note said to be pen by
23:26Betsy which detailed her fear that Russ
23:29was going to kill her and it was really
23:31interesting um can you talk a little bit
23:33about who told detectives to look for
23:35this sure so that was a piece of
23:38evidence that actually came up several
23:40years later after the initial homicide
23:43uh it was actually a typed letter uh it
23:46was uh typed in in a Word document and
23:48it was found on bets's computer believe
23:51it was her laptop or desktop I'm not
23:52sure and the person who brought this
23:54typed letter to uh law enforcement's
23:57attention to the Sheriff's Department
23:58was actually Pam hup Pam hup mentioned
24:01that this that Betsy had typed this
24:03letter now again this is years later
24:05after after the initial investigation
24:07and one of the interesting things that
24:09came out through the investigation is
24:11that if you know anything about
24:13computers and about programming usually
24:14when you buy like Microsoft Office you
24:17have to register or you can register you
24:18can put your name on it well what they
24:20found was that the author who had done
24:23this program it was unknown almost like
24:26it had not come from her computer like
24:28somebody had typed that from a different
24:30computer and placed it on her computer
24:33it's kind of funny that Pam Hub came up
24:35with the lead there to for a law
24:36enforcement to investigate well she came
24:38up with a lot of leads over the years uh
24:40she her story changed multiple times
24:43Lincoln County did interview her
24:44multiple times one of the things that
24:46she changed was the fact that she ever
24:48go inside the house when she dropped
24:51Betsy off first she said no and then she
24:53said well I just went to the front door
24:55and then it changed to well I went
24:56inside and all these different varying
24:59stories that she told that were not
25:01consistent throughout the years and
25:03these have been videotaped right they
25:05were out there and look at the
25:07interviews uh that were done with uh
25:09with Pam Hub and uh so the investigation
25:11goes on what what you think was the
25:13critical point of them charging Russ
25:15Faria for the murder I do believe that
25:18the results of the polygraph exam I
25:19think played a big role in the initial
25:22charging Russ Russ was administered a
25:24polygraph exam The Examiner who gave the
25:27test uh deemed that he showed deception
25:29and I I do believe that that played a
25:31role in the sheriff's department and the
25:34prosecutor leasi at the time in their
25:36decision to file charges polygraph is a
25:38tool that is utilized uh I always use it
25:41as a last resort as a very last part of
25:43Investigation I don't use that as the
25:44form uh like I would not give a
25:46polygraph the very first part that's
25:47towards the end to either prove or
25:50disprove evidence what we have you agree
25:51Brian with that yeah it obviously plays
25:54a role I mean there are times when you
25:55might want to use it early on if you
25:57have a missing person or
25:58in kid sometimes you can utilize there's
26:00different techniques that you can use
26:02but that's a Time Crime Time critical
26:04fact correct but in in a in a normal
26:06quote unquote normal investigation
26:08generally you do hold back and wait for
26:10the polygraph until you have a good
26:13chunk of the investigation done because
26:14it is not a substitute for the
26:16investigation it's just part of it
26:17Brian's a certified law enforcement
26:19polygraph examiner he's certified
26:21through uh the law enforcement polygraph
26:23as well as the police prif if I'm not y
26:26so the American polygraph Association
26:28the American Association of police
26:29polygraphist yep it's polygraphist by
26:32the way is for uh yes polygraph thanks
26:34for clarifying so I'm going to make sure
26:35you did that anyways I've been doing
26:37polygraphs for how long Brian 18 years
26:3918 years been reading people looking at
26:41people uh I don't want to get too much
26:43into this uh I got to be delicate the
26:45polygraph that was administered do you
26:47think it could have been administered in
26:49a maybe a different or better way and
26:51which what what it was yeah I mean I can
26:52speak to how if if I was asked to
26:55administer it you know one one of the
26:56things that we do is polygraph examiners
26:58is before we even really begin is we ask
27:02specific psychological and physiological
27:05questions some of those might be how
27:06much sleep have youve had have you had
27:08anything to eat how much sleep have you
27:10had are you intoxicated are you under
27:12any kind of Narcotics or any kind of
27:14drug influence and those those can
27:16factor in and if certain questions on
27:19those are answered a certain way I will
27:21not give a test if somebody tells me
27:23that they have not had any sleep they've
27:24been up for 27 hours that they haven't
27:27eaten that they just recently uh used
27:30some kind of marijuana or any kind of
27:32narcotic I will not administer the test
27:34because it can't affect that the results
27:36uh regarding this test I'm not going to
27:38say who did it which agency or anything
27:40I just want to get a little B more
27:41specific were there some questions about
27:42the physiological wellbe or the uh the
27:45way the test administered based upon
27:47some of the questions you would have
27:48asked yes so I want to be careful here
27:50okay but I think this is all part of it
27:51though sure part of the issue too is the
27:53actual polygraph charts themselves and I
27:56believe the report were not part of the
27:58police report I don't know if it got
28:00lost if I don't know what happened not
28:02being able to see the charts not being
28:04able to to watch the video things like
28:06that um and is there a video charts have
28:08you found them yet I believe there's
28:10what we call a post test so after the
28:11charts are administered we can conduct
28:14what's called a post test and that's
28:15where we if somebody fails the exam we
28:17can basically do further interviewing
28:19with them I I know there is a video of
28:21that I don't believe that there was any
28:23saved video of the actual exam itself
28:26how about the charts I do not believe
28:27the the charts were saved either and
28:29that what you as a polygraph examiner
28:31you'd allow to look at those right you
28:32look at the both the video and the
28:33charts combined for kind of a
28:35confirmation I guess or just analyst yes
28:37so as a certified polygraph examiner
28:39through uh APA American polygraph
28:41Association and American associate and
28:43police polygraphist some of the require
28:45require uh requirements are that we
28:48video record the entire interview from
28:50start to finish that we maintain the
28:51charts that we maintain all the records
28:54you know to be a professional
28:56standardized polygraph examiner those
28:58those are things that you should be
28:59doing every time you give an how about a
29:01little bit enough but Brian actually
29:02teaches at a polygraph school out in
29:05California and he's been teaching there
29:06for several years not only does he
29:08administer him administer him for almost
29:0920 years he also teaches uh polygraph
29:12examinations again just one last part of
29:14this was there anything with the
29:15questions regarding sleep drugs or
29:18anything that may have uh resulted in
29:20you maybe not given a polygraph to uh
29:23yeah and just based off of the
29:25information that I'm aware of uh again I
29:27wasn't directly involved in the uh
29:30initial investigation or or the
29:32polygraph that was administered to Russ
29:34but I based off the information I know
29:36he had recently used marijuana that he
29:39had been up for I believe 27 28 hours he
29:42had actually been in custody for I think
29:46a long time enough where he wasn't able
29:48to get any sleep get any rest me
29:50personally if somebody would have asked
29:51me under those conditions to administer
29:53a test I would have told them no and I
29:55think to put the weight of an
29:56investigation on a polygraph first of
29:57all is questionable for me as a homicide
29:59detective then habitats administered
30:01with the with a questionable
30:02physiological background and
30:04psychological aspects that could have
30:06with marijuana which is hallucinogen
30:07would question me so Alie if you want to
30:09continue on there we kind of got that a
30:10little bit Yeah so
30:13um because there was no blood found
30:16anywhere on Russ or really anywhere in
30:20the house there were no bloody clothes
30:21found um the prosecutor brought up the
30:23possibility that Russ had committed this
30:26crime naked what do you what do you
30:28think the possibility of that is well
30:30how can you resolve if the theory is
30:32that he became enraged and upset you
30:35can't have it both ways you can't be
30:36calm and calculating and thoughtful and
30:39planning and cunning and also be upset
30:42angry at the same point so if if he
30:45would have if he would even if he had
30:47done it naked there still would have
30:49been some kind of cleanup there still
30:50would have been something in in in the
30:52in the sink something in the in the
30:55shower drains and none of that was found
30:58and and the fact that he had four
31:00independent people that verified that he
31:02was at their house in O Fallon and based
31:05on the information of what her condition
31:08of her body was at the time police
31:09responded There's no practical way he
31:12could have done that cleaned up got rid
31:14of everything it's impossible all right
31:17when did police eventually decide to
31:20charge him yeah I believe it was it was
31:21several weeks after the major case Squad
31:24disbanded so was that within a month you
31:26think yes yes that's quick yes uh they I
31:29I believe they showed up to Russ's house
31:31uh they placed him under arrest took him
31:33back I I will say you know before we get
31:35too far shout out to Russ's Attorney
31:37Joel Schwarz he's very well known in the
31:40St Louis area great criminal defense
31:42attorney attorne and you know he
31:44believed Russ from day one and he
31:47continued even after he got convicted
31:49Joel continued to fight to to show that
31:52he had not done this actually uh won and
31:54appealed to have the retrial
31:56fast-tracked and I if if I was charged
31:59with something I didn't do he would be
32:01the first person I would call didn't Jo
32:02write a book about this also he did him
32:04and uh him and Russ and uh Brian's been
32:07on Date Line a couple of times and
32:08Brian's also done some interviews
32:10several uh entities regarding the the
32:12investigation of Pam hup mostly in the
32:14the oon case it's all ties into it too
32:16anyways Alie yeah go ahead I just like
32:18know I don't know if it's okay just
32:20about the evidence you think they had or
32:22how do I say that's what about the
32:24substantial evidence they had to charge
32:26him would they You' be convicted beond
32:27re doubt well obviously he was convicted
32:30yeah now one could argue that Russ's
32:34attorney was not allowed to present
32:37other theories and other evidence that
32:39might have exonerated or found him Not
32:41Guilty By A Reasonable
32:43Doubt was there enough evidence
32:46obviously there was a jury there that
32:47based off what they heard they believed
32:49however when it went to the appell court
32:51they determined that there was multiple
32:53errors committed during the trial which
32:56remanded it back for a retrial a new
32:58judge heard the case and made really
33:01some some interesting comments about the
33:04investigation itself and uh I know Ally
33:06you and I have talked off camera uh
33:08about that I don't know if you you want
33:10to address that but it's pretty
33:12interesting to hear what what that
33:13judges comments were in the second trial
33:15yeah in the second trial the judge
33:17actually called the investigation um
33:20rather
33:21disturbing um and I think the law
33:22enforcement part Al yeah yeah the law
33:24enforcement um specifically Lincoln
33:26County's contribution rather disturbing
33:28and I think that really speaks to the
33:30volume of how it was mismanaged yeah and
33:33you know and and that's the thing that
33:34you know when you have you know bias you
33:38you you you you can't force the evidence
33:41to fit your beliefs you have to make
33:43your beliefs based on what the evidence
33:45shows and you know I believe that the
33:48investigators at that time got tunnel
33:50vision they believed in their heart and
33:52I think to this day there's many of them
33:54that still believe Russ committed the
33:56crime and it's just it's mindboggling
33:59but I guess once you once you believe in
34:02something so fervent that no matter what
34:04somebody shows you or tells you you're
34:06you're going to believe what you're
34:07going to believe um would you mind
34:08talking a little bit more about why why
34:10wasn't Joel Schwarz able to talk about
34:13um theories involving Pam hup or even
34:15the life insurance policy and the the
34:17switch and beneficiary sure so when when
34:20he tried to bring that up um as as part
34:23of his case the judge at the time that
34:25that heard the first trial had a hearing
34:27ing without the jury present and both
34:30the prosecutor and Joel made their
34:32arguments as to why he should be able to
34:34bring this in and the judge at the time
34:36determined that he could not and that is
34:38part of the reason that the appell court
34:40overturned his conviction and remanded
34:42it back for a retrial and to be remanded
34:44for retrial that means uh they uh
34:46dismiss the conviction goes back for
34:48retrial was the evidence that originally
34:51was dismissed or not allowed by the
34:53judge was it reintroduced in the second
34:54trial Brian were you aware of that yes
34:56so Joel in the second trial was able to
34:59produce his version and his beliefs and
35:02his arguments on who he believed
35:04committing the crime which was obviously
35:06Pam Hub and uh the life insurance policy
35:09that's I think a big part regarding
35:11motive I think that should have been
35:12introduced because that's a a big part
35:14of this entire case that was the motive
35:16for both uh Russ committing the crime
35:18because he changed she changed the
35:19policy bet she did to Pam hup and then
35:23Russ killed her because she changed a
35:26policy to Pam Hub so that that's a big
35:28part of it and if you listen to the
35:30multiple interviews that Pam gave
35:32throughout the years through both of
35:34these trials you know originally she
35:36said that Betsy asked her to become the
35:38beneficiary so she could keep the money
35:39for the kids for her daughters and she
35:42was talked into putting that into a
35:44trust before the first trial and then
35:46after that trial where Russ was
35:48convicted she immediately took that out
35:50of the trust and refused to give the
35:52money back to the children there was
35:54actually a Civil Trial that the
35:56daughters of Russ and FY filed against
35:59Pam and unfortunately Pam actually won
36:02that Civil Trial and she was allowed to
36:03keep the insurance money do you think
36:05the timing of of her moving that money
36:07right after the end of his trial do you
36:09think that's suspicious at all well and
36:11if if you look at some of the the
36:13interviews that were recorded by the
36:14Lincoln County investigators she
36:16actually says yeah it's it's my money I
36:18I don't have to give it back and she was
36:20kind of confronted well hey you said
36:22originally that you were going to give
36:23this back and she basically was like I'm
36:25not giving it back yeah it's kind of
36:26disappointing you got take care of the
36:28kids it just didn't happen under that
36:29circumstance so uh Russ was convicted a
36:32retry took place and let's talk about
36:34the retry that that took place a little
36:36bit what did Joel Schwarz and his
36:38attorney on the retrial and the retrial
36:40that took place was there a change of
36:42venue was it still in uh Lincoln County
36:44it was still in Lincoln County I believe
36:46but it was heard by I believe a St
36:48Charles County judge on the name is
36:49escaping me but it it was a judge
36:51outside of Lincoln County that heard the
36:53case and it was in the first trial it
36:55was a jury trial he was convicted by a
36:57jury and the second trial they chose a
36:59bench trial and the judge actually made
37:01the determination of not guilty so a
37:03defendant has a choice they can either
37:05have a trial by jury uh and where the
37:08jury decides or they can have a bench
37:10trial where there's no jury the judge
37:11makes a decision after hearing evidence
37:13or they unless they do what's called a
37:14summary judgment they can dismiss the
37:16case even before the end of the trial so
37:18the judge dismissed the case let me talk
37:20about law enforcement a little bit again
37:22not I don't want to get well we'll talk
37:24see how this goes did law enforcement
37:26change anything regarding what they
37:28testified to the between the first trial
37:30and second trial that the uh judge heard
37:33or that was later found out yeah and and
37:35that's where we talk about some of these
37:37this some of the quote unquote evidence
37:39that came out after the initial
37:40investigation I believe you had one
37:42officer who arrived on scene who years
37:44later testified that he actually did see
37:47water in the sink or in the bathtub when
37:50years prior nobody saw any water there
37:53was a crime scene investigator for
37:55Lincoln County who said that conducted
37:58some forensic testing for for blood and
38:01took photographs and these photographs
38:03showed that there was a cleanup of blood
38:05however the pictures were never produced
38:08or could not be found until the second
38:10trial when somehow they were leaked to
38:12Jill Schwarz who then confronted this
38:15crime scene investigator on the stand
38:17where the photographs actually showed no
38:19cleanup so you know those are very
38:22concerning that's concerning yeah very
38:24concerning there's obviously I'm sure
38:25part of the reason as to why Russ a
38:27civil judgment against Lincoln County
38:29you know to have that happen too and
38:31this is law enforcement we want to make
38:33sure things are done the right way and
38:35the change testimony between uh
38:37different trials I had a case where I
38:39gave depositions which where I have to
38:40go in in front of defense attorneys and
38:42answer questions in front of Defense
38:44they asked me some of these G on for
38:46days I've had two two day depositions
38:48and then after depositions you go into
38:49what's called motion to suppress and
38:51then they try to suppress evidence you
38:53testify in court on a motion and then
38:55you testify at trial and I had one where
38:57we had multiple trials so I had to
38:59maintain my knowledge of the case
39:01through my report and other stuff and
39:04you need to be consistent I mean you
39:05tell the truth it's consistent if you
39:07don't tell the truth it's not about to
39:08say is if you tell the truth it's really
39:09easy to keep the straight story well I I
39:11know that they had a lost students in
39:13one of my uh murder cases I was working
39:16and they actually had all my testimony
39:18from both the deposition and the and the
39:20first trial looking through any
39:21inconsistencies law law students
39:23actually do get case like this to look
39:25at to kind of supplement the defense
39:27attorney IES to try to find evidence to
39:29try to show somebody not guilty and and
39:31I had multiple law students going
39:33through my whole testimony trying to
39:34find inconsistencies and just stick with
39:37what the investigation was and and it
39:38turned out F the facts
39:40yep so the the prosecutor Leah aski how
39:45big of a role do you think she played in
39:47the mismanagement of Russ's trial do do
39:51you think she really was she just going
39:52off of what detectives were giving her
39:54or was she really leading the chase here
39:56well it really depends on whose version
39:58you believe I know she's given previous
40:00interviews I believe one to dat line
40:02where she said that she just followed
40:05the quote unquote evidence that the
40:07sheriff's department provided her the
40:09fact that she's the one that has the
40:11ultimate decision of issuing a charge
40:14you have to believe that the fact that
40:15he was criminally prosecuted in first in
40:18the first trial convicted that that's on
40:20her she is the one that makes the
40:22decision law enforcement presents the
40:23facts to the prosecution and the
40:25prosecution is the one who decides
40:26whether they going to seek charges or
40:28not yep law enforcement testimony in
40:30this case is concerning like I say but
40:32remember that was a different group of
40:34investigators at Lincoln County we've
40:35met a lot of good investigators there
40:37who have trained and kind of kind of
40:39reemphasize that point when Russ was
40:41found not guilty in the second trial
40:43Mike Wood became prosecutor correct
40:45eventually after that after that what
40:47did Mike Wood start pursuing then
40:49regarding the death of Betsy FIA yeah so
40:51one of the very first things that Mike
40:53Wood and Sheriff Herold did was reopen
40:56the case and that ultimately led to them
40:59charging Pam hup with the murder of
41:01Betsy foro are you aware of any evidence
41:03or I don't if you you have any again
41:05this case is pending still we got to be
41:07careful uh Brian ey might have a little
41:08bit of knowledge behind the scenes that
41:10we will not share that may be known by
41:12law enforcement but is there anything
41:13out there in the public that about why
41:15they would charge uh pan like any new
41:17evidence anything you know that you can
41:18share well the fact that her story
41:20changed multiple times the fact that she
41:23has a motive the fact that she's done it
41:25before yeah you know all those I think
41:27played into it the fact that you know
41:29she's she's the last person that saw
41:32Betsy alers is allegedly the last person
41:35who saw Betsy live the fact that she
41:37says that she was in Al Fallon when
41:39herself 30 minutes after she says she
41:41drops Betsy off at home she's in alound
41:44but her phone is pinging off a cell
41:46tower in Troy you know those those are
41:47going to be difficult for her to
41:49overcome in in the subsequent trial that
41:51she's facing and in a future episode
41:53regarding the uh the death of her mother
41:56Shirley Newman H was the last person to
41:58see her mother to be with her mother uh
42:00at 8:00 at night and her mother's found
42:02dead the following day again we'll get
42:04into that case in depth but and then uh
42:06uh Lewis gumpenberger she was the last
42:08one to be with Lewis before he died so
42:10we got three different cases there
42:11anything else you think Brian that the
42:13LED Mike Wood to uh to charge uh Pam hup
42:16with this case I like I said I I think a
42:18lot of you're going to see a lot of it
42:20come out in the trial uh he did uh bring
42:22on a like a special prosecutor Delany
42:25harms from who retired from St Charles
42:28County Prosecuting Office um I worked
42:30with him for many years really good at
42:32what he does I know that uh they're
42:34currently preparing there's been a lot
42:35of delays in the trial based off of
42:37Judges being recused and judges recusing
42:40themselves and the fact that she's being
42:42represented by the public defender
42:44office and you know they're obviously
42:45backlogged so I I think as this
42:47progresses I I know Mike Wood has made
42:49statements that he will not accept a
42:51plea from her and take the death penalty
42:53off the case unless she pleads to every
42:56murder that she's done yeah who knows
42:57you know that still might be up in air a
42:59little bit about that but uh we'll talk
43:02about change of venue has up a lot of
43:04cases I've had a couple change of venue
43:05cases on case I worked as a homicide
43:07detective regarding publicity has there
43:09been any attempts or change of venue on
43:11this case Brian so there there was
43:12obviously with with the alound case with
43:15the St Louis County there's a lot of
43:17information at least on this side of the
43:19state I mean it's nationally but
43:20definitely very well known on on the
43:22Eastern side of Missouri there was a
43:24change to the western side eventually it
43:26was decided that it would be very
43:28burdensome on all the witnesses to have
43:31to drive that far so what they ended up
43:34doing was requesting another change of
43:36venue the Missouri Supreme Court granted
43:38that change from the western side of the
43:40state back to actually St Charles County
43:43it's my understanding that they will
43:45probably bus in uh a jury from probably
43:48further out and probably house them here
43:51during the trial so the only ones who
43:53really will be inconvenienced will be
43:55the the jurors well the trial be in St
43:57Charles County or Lincoln County it'll
43:58be in St Charles and by the St Charles
44:01County judge if I'm not mistaken yes and
44:03that is kind of a change of venue from
44:05Lincoln County uh even though it's only
44:06a different County over but that is a
44:08change and uh we we both know this I
44:10think the public may but Mike Wood's
44:11going for the death penalty in this case
44:13based upon her behavior and and
44:16activities for death penalty case a
44:18little bit of a background how this
44:19works you have the initial trial in the
44:21death penalty case if somebody is
44:23convicted there's basically a second
44:25trial and the second trial will the jury
44:28will determine is there enough evidence
44:29for the death penalty to be pursued you
44:31can have aggravating factors which shows
44:34why they should get the death penalty
44:35and then the defense prevent mitigating
44:37factors about why there should not be
44:39the death penalty in a case and I have
44:41had some death penalty cases I have
44:43worked where people have been convicted
44:44with the death penalty and it's a it's a
44:47big big responsibility everybody uh to
44:49work these cases regarding death penalty
44:51cases uh I I my thoughts about the death
44:54penalty is I let Justice take it where
44:57does okay I'm indifferent I'll let the
44:59justice system do it uh I'm not for I'm
45:02not I'm just want that the justice
45:03system to take it where it is okay so uh
45:06if they have death penalty that's the
45:08way the jury decided and that's way it
45:09moves forward that's speaking from a
45:11homicide detective's point of view if
45:12pan comes clean on her other criminal
45:15activity grinding death of people they
45:16may take the death penalty off the table
45:18that may tie in to a case a little later
45:21on if there was suspicious circumstances
45:23of her mother so we'll see where that
45:25goes Are the officers worked the case
45:27originally still with Lincoln County
45:29Brer do you know any further information
45:30about that I believe they've all left
45:32Lincoln County some might be working in
45:34other agencies I know some have gotten
45:35out of law
45:37enforcement so yeah I mean uh they're
45:39going to have to come back and testify
45:41are they not yes so they're going to be
45:43testifying uh a third time first initial
45:45trial where Russ a free was convicted
45:47the second trial where Russ Russ was
45:50found not guilty and a third trial now
45:53regarding the prosecution of Pam Hub so
45:55the same detectives are going to come
45:56back can be under oath again to testify
45:58in court I I don't think I'll go you
46:00know uh because I I let law enforcement
46:03take it to where it was being retired
46:05I'll follow the case though I'll see
46:06where it takes us Brian what what are
46:08your thoughts about attending a trial
46:09like this would you attend depends on
46:11how busy Vista is yeah if we're working
46:14I might have to be teaching or doing
46:15polygraphs but I will definitely follow
46:17it very closely this will take a lot of
46:19interest so there'll be a lot of people
46:21fighting to get in to watch it so I'll
46:23be curious to see if the judge allows
46:25cameras I would imagine that the media
46:27will probably request that I'll be
46:29curious to see what the judge if he
46:30grants that or not Ellie what do you
46:32think would you attend if you're able oh
46:34yeah if I'm able Sarah who's working in
46:36the control where' you go Sarah you know
46:38Trend media is a media company you know
46:40that right maybe uh since it is they're
46:42going to have to clear like probably a
46:43month out of their schedule however
46:45maybe I can we can work something out to
46:47have maybe somebody from Trend media uh
46:49attend since there's a media companies
46:51part of the press okay so maybe we can
46:52work that out maybe get a seat in there
46:54I'll try I think we know some people so
46:57maybe get one or two of you in there as
46:58producers uh again Sarah's the executive
47:00producer it's working the board and then
47:01Ali's producer so we know some people
47:03might get you in there with uh our press
47:05credentials or our uh our media
47:07credentials so if you guys would be
47:08interested i' like somebody in there to
47:10maybe watch you guys can switch off
47:11interested if we can do that well that'd
47:13be really interesting okay maybe I could
47:15get you a seat next to the date line
47:16producer that I know I'm sure she'll
47:18want to be there media sitting together
47:20so you know I I really enjoy talking
47:22about this case again there's so much
47:24more we can get into but we have to keep
47:25the Public's interest enough for you
47:27know for driving to work to listen to
47:29for the whole episode or doing some uh
47:31maybe some multiple episodes just a
47:33three episode uh I was going to say we
47:34got two more coming yeah two more coming
47:36for the pam pam hup month Pam hup month
47:38The Saga of Pam Hub uh kind of wrap it
47:42up here Alie what did you find out in
47:44your research did you see anything in
47:45the in the trial or the case which you
47:48saw maybe could have been done different
47:50or maybe could have been better I think
47:51a lot of things could have been done
47:53either differently or better I I really
47:56just think I mean under what
47:57circumstances would you guys choose to
48:00completely ignore somebody having an
48:02alibi like like Russ had I wouldn't yeah
48:04that's that's excellent point that's a
48:05good point Ally and that's the problem
48:07you know what my understanding is that
48:10one of the investigators you know did
48:12the the drove the route from O Fallon
48:15where he was where Russ was with his
48:16friends to uh to his home to try to
48:20explain the time difference and it's my
48:22understanding the detective drove like a
48:25100 m you I'm exaggerating but like 100
48:27miles an hour not like a normal speed to
48:29try to cut down the time to give him
48:31more time it's when you do things like
48:33that that's where you run into trouble
48:34and that's where you get you know false
48:37confessions where you get wrongful
48:39convictions and where you ultimately end
48:41up living losing in a civil suit or
48:43losing your job it's not worth it and
48:46again I cannot live with myself ever
48:48putting somebody innocent in jail or
48:49pursuing somebody I didn't think did it
48:51all right on the other hand I I've
48:53worked numerous murder cases a couple
48:54few that are unsolved I think I know who
48:56did it but they're out there walking
48:57again I'm not going to try to to do
48:59anything that's improper illegal or
49:01otherwise not if you put somebody
49:03innocent in jail the real killers out
49:04there first of all right if you put
49:06somebody to innocent in jail what are
49:07you doing to to the uh credibility of
49:09law enforcement what are you doing to
49:10The credibility and person's life who's
49:12innocent and so again we got to be right
49:15and uh we always have a check and
49:16balance system within how we do this I
49:18take it very serious the True Crime
49:21aspects of the trend podcast is very
49:23interesting to everybody here and you
49:25have to have it in your heart and what
49:27we also do here is trying to generate
49:28interest in these cases to maybe have
49:30somebody bring up things on Cold Case
49:32we'll talk about talk about different
49:34things in law enforcement so Brian
49:35anything you want to sum up here at the
49:37end no just it's obviously you know when
49:40I present this case study in in our
49:42classes you know I I I tell everybody
49:44that every detective dreams for that
49:47that one 15 minute of Fame that that one
49:49big case and this was obviously mine I
49:51never thought in August of 2016 I would
49:54really be on Dat line or on podcast
49:57talking about a case I worked it's it's
50:00been very surreal to to see that such a
50:03case generates so much so much interest
50:06uh throughout the throughout the United
50:07States and actually in the world because
50:09I've been on a German podcast as well
50:11and to be part of this with Trend media
50:13and having the trend podcast having
50:15Brian and then Ally also here and then
50:17like I say the future episode we'll have
50:18the head of the County homicide unit and
50:20uh discuss further so I want to thank uh
50:22Brian and Ally for here thank you Sarah
50:24for running the board in the control
50:25area and thank all of you for listening
50:27thank you so much for your interest
50:29please feel free to email us on any
50:31questions comments or future topics at
50:35TH Trend trended llc.com again the trend
50:38Trend Media or our website www. trended
50:42llc.com uh we'd love to see your
50:45comments if you uh would uh uh support
50:47us in any way you can that'd be
50:49fantastic we'll keep things going I
50:50promise we'll keep your interest well
50:52this is Gary Fortney thanks for
50:53listening and uh this is the trend
50:56thanks everyone for tuning into this
50:59episode of the trend if you have any uh
51:01questions comments or suggestions please
51:04feel free to reach out to us at the
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