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Episode 21 - Ryan Ferguson — Transcript

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0:00what's up guys David Dell here your host
0:03of the business with the boys podcast
0:05and as always joined with my co-host
0:08Landon and I must say I know you know we
0:11talked about this uh or we talk about
0:13this fairly often but I'm really glad
0:15that you play pickle ball because as a
0:17result you've met our most recent guest
0:21Ryan Ferguson
0:23who this story is wild dude wild is an
0:28understatement an absolute
0:30understatement and the guy's a freaking
0:32stud so for those of you who may not
0:35recognize that name uh do me a favor and
0:38just Google Ryan Ferguson dreamkiller
0:43Netflix and if you haven't yet seen that
0:47documentary you're certainly going to
0:48want to take a look at that after this
0:51podcast but don't leave us listen to
0:53this one first if you haven't if you
0:54haven't seen that but yeah Ryan he's
1:02surprisingly very positive and for the
1:06[ __ ] that he went through he is still
1:09right between the ears where I feel like
1:12anyone else would be their brain would
1:14be mush uh you know long story short
1:17just to give you the cliffnotes version
1:19everyone and there's a lot of business
1:21principles for those of you who run a
1:24business or are looking to run a
1:26business but uh he was wrongly convicted
1:29for murder and basically from beginning
1:33till uh you know end of finally being
1:36found innocent and released uh he was
1:38away for 10 years in in arguably his
1:41prime years 19 to 29 or so um that's
1:46sort of Cliff Notes version but Landon I
1:48guess what were some of your your
1:49takeaways before we dive in yeah I mean
1:52much like you said I mean just the
1:54resiliency that the guy has um the
1:57upbeat attitude that he still has I mean
2:01I feel like if I was wrongfully
2:02convicted for murder and did 10 years um
2:05before I finally my innocence was
2:07brought forward I don't know that I
2:08would be have that big flashy smile on
2:10my face all the time that he does but
2:12like I asked him about it he goes hey
2:14I'm not there anymore you know and I'm
2:16like there's a reason to smile right but
2:18like yeah but I mean the underlying
2:22theme of this whole conversation we had
2:24with him you know and obviously I think
2:26you could tell as you you'll hear
2:27throughout the podcast is his passion is
2:29fixing this criminal justice system that
2:31ultimately put him here when it's again
2:34Watch the documentary because it is so
2:36messed up but it it happened and it'll
2:39play out right in front of you and
2:40you're like how right how could they no
2:44physical evidence I mean like it's
2:46you're watching it and you're just like
2:48well there's no way they'll convict this
2:49guy it happens and unfortunately he's
2:52not alone right it happens all the time
2:54in this country which is a sad thing and
2:56quite frankly something that was never
2:57even on my radar and until you know I
3:01gained a friend and Ryan and then it
3:02kind of affected me personally right I
3:04was pissed off that a guy that I like
3:06deeply and and and value friendship with
3:09was wrongfully convicted for murder and
3:11did 10 years from 19 to 29 the most
3:13influential years of his life like said
3:15arguably so yeah it's there's a lot to
3:17unpack in in this multi-part
3:20episode yeah I think you guys will
3:22certainly enjoy this episode uh Ryan not
3:25only has a wild story but he's super
3:27dynamic as well and uh is a very
3:30engaging uh speaker and actually does
3:33some speaking too talking about the
3:34story talking about this uh issue that
3:37we face and and Landon just alluded to
3:39it but this is part one of at least a
3:42two-part maybe a three-part who knows
3:44Series so uh without further Ado let's
3:47go chat with Ryan
3:52[Music]
4:01[Music]
4:09Ryan
4:10Ferguson nice to uh nice to spend some
4:13time with you I know we did an intro
4:14call uh Landon has had the pleasure of
4:17actually playing pickle ball with you uh
4:20what is it every morning or at least a
4:22few times a week or something like that
4:24but I'm excited not enough if you ask
4:26me I'm excited for I love playing some
4:30bck ball get my ass beat thanks Landon
4:31apprciate well I did ask I did ask you
4:34know we were kits in behind the scenes
4:37Landon I was like yeah so Landon's you
4:39know pretty cocky when it comes to
4:40pickle ball like is he really that good
4:42and he's like yeah he's pretty legit and
4:44we talked about you know maybe me uh
4:46which is no longer a secret but secretly
4:49taking lessons and hustling you uh next
4:52time I'm out there I welcome the
4:54challenge brother I welcome the
4:56challenge oh man but for those of you uh
4:59who tuning in this episode's uh you know
5:02going to be a little bit uh different
5:04but also uh hopefully eye openening and
5:09and there's plenty of things that can be
5:10applied into your everyday lives and and
5:12in business um but Ryan uh was part of
5:18uh an unfortunate circumstance and Brian
5:21I'll have you unpack this some more and
5:23if you haven't yet seen the documentary
5:25dream killer on Netflix Ryan is I guess
5:29you could say the star of that
5:31documentary although I don't know if
5:32that's the star that I'd want to be but
5:35Ryan kind of bring us back to when you
5:39were what was it 19 years old 18 years
5:41old right around
5:43there what the heck happened great
5:46question I'm still trying to figure out
5:48what the heck
5:49happened uh sadly what happened to me
5:52happens to a lot of people uh in this
5:54nation and and around the world we would
5:56think that here in the United States uh
6:00you know we have a legal system that is
6:03built to serve and protect us and that
6:06doesn't always happen um I'm very very
6:09much supportive of Law and Order Our
6:11legal system the police but uh there are
6:15certain checks and balances that are
6:17theoretically in place that don't work
6:21properly um there's no oversight and
6:24there's no accountability and I think
6:25things like we're about to hear happen
6:28every day um so ultimately when I was 19
6:31years old I was in college I was getting
6:34ready for midterms and a beautiful day
6:37and uh much like to day I'm looking out
6:39outside thinking about going out
6:41whooping Landing in the pickle ball but
6:43um the cops showed up at my door and uh
6:48basically they they followed me home
6:50from school surrounded my vehicle uh and
6:53unmarked cars started yelling you know
6:56screaming doing that whole whole deal
6:58and I'm like what what the hell is going
6:59on which is strange because there was a
7:02bomb threat at my school that day and I
7:05was like these people think like I
7:07threatened to blow up the school or
7:09something like I'm in class you can look
7:10at my cell phone it wasn't me you know
7:14um so the whole time they're they're
7:15arrested me and taking me downtown I'm
7:17thinking I'm getting arrested for that
7:18I'm like oh well you know whatever this
7:20will go away quick right yeah and and
7:22you know it's just like you can see
7:24where I was no problem um and then
7:27they're like no you're being arrested
7:28for murder and I'm like oh well again no
7:32problem I have nothing to do with any of
7:33those uh and then ultimately they's
7:36saying that it was for a murder that
7:38happened two years prior so it's not
7:41even a a recent crime and my belief at
7:45the time was you know I have nothing to
7:47do with this I'll talk to the police
7:49I'll tell them whatever information they
7:51need to go know and I'll go home and get
7:54back to my studying and take my midterms
7:55and enjoy life I honestly believed that
8:00their intent was to find the truth what
8:04I have since learned with many
8:06interrogations many prosecutions the
8:08truth is not necessarily what they're
8:11after they're after convictions and
8:14there are multiple interviews you can
8:16find with police and detectives and
8:19prosecutors who will say that it's not
8:21even necessarily about getting the truth
8:23it's about getting a conviction and it's
8:25just appalling to hear that because you
8:29know as a citizen of this country we
8:31don't believe that that's the way this
8:33system works and I think uh I think we
8:36need to be very aware of the fact that
8:38that is ultimately the objective of many
8:41of these police and prosecutors get
8:43convictions so um I'm questioned for uh
8:47around 10 hours that day I think many of
8:51you have probably seen interrogations
8:54and you'll see that they just kind of
8:55ask the same question over and over and
8:57over again 10 different ways um it's
9:01very redundant very repetitive they're
9:03not listening to what you're saying
9:05they're not fact Gathering they're
9:07attempting to get you to say something
9:11incriminating and that's pretty much it
9:14uh when they say you know you you have
9:16the right to remain silent anything you
9:17say or do will be used against you in
9:19the court of law that's exactly what
9:22will happen that's what their goal is um
9:25they mean that huh they mean that
9:27they're trying to get you to say or do
9:28something that will be held against you
9:31regardless of whether or not it's it's
9:34factbase or verified or anything they
9:37can prove that you can you can show
9:39evidence that if you say you did
9:41something that you didn't you can have
9:44DNA evidence showing that you didn't do
9:45that and they don't care they will hide
9:49it from you they'll hide it from the
9:50jury they'll lie to the jury they'll
9:53manipulate that evidence um and did you
9:56have during this questioning did you
9:58have an attorney present CU my thought
10:00would be well I didn't do it I don't
10:02need an attorney um were you on your own
10:05in there or or did you have someone
10:07present to help 100% that's a great
10:09question David uh I did not and I did
10:13not for the the exact reason that you
10:16just enumerated was I believed that you
10:20know I'm just going to tell my story and
10:22be out of here yeah if you have nothing
10:24to do with it you have nothing to hide
10:26and they just want to know the facts
10:28they gather those and they like okay
10:30obviously have nothing to do with this
10:31and move on um and you're 19 and don't
10:34have any experience with law enforcement
10:35right like it's not like you were a
10:36career criminal or been in trouble with
10:38the law before right like exactly no and
10:40and that's the thing is you don't know
10:41that at 19 29 39 59 whatever it is if
10:45you've never been involved with that
10:46system I don't know many people who have
10:49been arrested let alone you know in an
10:52interrogation for a major crime I do now
10:55I didn't
10:57then but it was definitely very foreign
11:00to me and what I'll say is you know when
11:03they say you have the right to remain
11:05silent uh as a person who who does
11:08support police and support our criminal
11:11justice system I I still tell people uh
11:15especially if I'm speaking to kids I
11:16just spoke at school the other day you
11:18know whenever if you're ever arrested
11:21for a crime if you're ever picked up by
11:22police do not talk to them you know
11:26cooperate be kind to them don't be don't
11:28be a
11:30but when it comes to actually speaking
11:33to them just say no I want an attorney I
11:35have nothing to say um I'll cooperate
11:38with any directives you give me outside
11:41of me speaking to you and uh and then
11:45talking about whatever it is that you're
11:47arresting me for and that's it you know
11:49I wouldn't even talk about the weather
11:51don't talk to police period because the
11:55Supreme Court of the United States has
11:57granted them the authority to lie to you
12:00you know to to be able to do certain
12:02things
12:04to people that they consider suspects
12:07and you don't understand that that's
12:08happening to you you don't understand
12:09that they're lying to you about facts
12:12and things around the case um and that's
12:14just one example but I
12:15mean you are you are putting yourself in
12:19a very bad position if you speak to
12:21police and you should never do it
12:23because it is not about helping you it's
12:27about getting convictions
12:30damn
12:32so I'm trying to put
12:35myself in your shoes so I'm sitting
12:38there
12:40for [ __ ] 10
12:42hours and getting grilled with the same
12:45question over and over again like
12:47there's times in my life where uh you
12:50know I'm I'm in a situation where I'm
12:52like well this is just wrong or or this
12:55is inaccurate so like I'm not even
12:57giving this time and attention like kind
12:59of brushing it off and get frustrated um
13:02I guess it was there any point over that
13:0410-hour period where you were
13:07like [ __ ] I think that this is more
13:10serious than I thought at the onset like
13:12when when did that switch flip from the
13:17say no thing this is just a massive
13:18confusion to like damn I actually need
13:21to defend myself like what what what was
13:23that triggering moment or when was
13:26that yeah uh another good question you
13:29know that probably should have been
13:30earlier in my head um than when it was
13:34the moment for me that I realized that
13:39um you know I wasn't going to be going
13:41home that evening was the interrogation
13:45room I I assume has very thin walls um
13:50there's multiple interrogation rooms
13:51nice to one another and at the time um
13:56not to get too much into the details of
13:58the cases people see it on 48 hours or
14:00dayline or Nightline or many morning
14:03showed yeah it's uh it's there and and
14:06what I am am grateful for in my case is
14:10that the facts have been independently
14:13reviewed and verified by all these these
14:15other sources so I don't have to
14:16necessarily tell the story it's been
14:19told for me by people who have
14:20investigated it thoroughly um and then a
14:23lot of people don't have that so that
14:24has helped my life and it's helped me
14:25get my life back and and live a normal
14:28life for as a lot of people don't have
14:30that you know like I can tell you these
14:32things but you don't really know unless
14:34you hear it from a third party right um
14:38so I'm sitting in the interrogation room
14:41and there is a
14:43codefendant uh the kid who I was
14:47arrested because a a individual that I
14:49was friends with in high school had a
14:51dream about a murder that happened two
14:53years prior they uh asked him you know
14:57um did you do this he said I don't I
14:59don't know and he says if I did it I
15:02must have been with Ryan which is me uh
15:05I mean that that's literally how it
15:07started like it if if he did he must
15:10have been with me like that's and based
15:12on a based on a
15:14dream there were no unique details so
15:17when you're talking about criminal
15:18investigations they talk about unique
15:20details unique facts and that is
15:22something um that only the killer or
15:25Killers would have known no one else
15:27could have known it so so uh Charles
15:31Erikson had this dream and he had a
15:34couple different things that would have
15:36been unique details had they actually
15:39happened
15:41um as it turns out there there's five
15:44different things you know and if you run
15:46through the list everything that he
15:47thought happened that would have been a
15:48unique detail you can prove didn't
15:50happen yeah um that's like documentary
15:53and I was like what like this is you
15:55have to see it dude it's crazy it's it's
15:58mind
15:59and and then there were unique details
16:01and he didn't know those and the cops
16:05became so frustrated that he couldn't
16:06provide them that they told him which
16:08should never have an interrogation yeah
16:10and then and then he was like yeah that
16:12sounds about right that's probably what
16:13it was literally and they were like
16:16perfect great you're ready to testify
16:19yeah it is the most [ __ ] up thing you
16:22have ever seen if you it's it's actually
16:25terrifying folks like if you don't think
16:28this can happen to you this can legit
16:30happen to anyone it is crazy the way
16:33they worked this poor kid and I almost
16:35felt bad watching it for I mean I told
16:37Ryan I'm like I don't know how I mean I
16:40probably would be in for murder after
16:42you know this whole thing went down if I
16:44could find that cat but like it's it's
16:47sad the way these guys just worked and
16:49manipulate because let's be honest he's
16:52he's pretty mentally fragile right Ryan
16:55yeah I mean he
16:57has some sort of
17:00issue mentally uh that that I I you know
17:03I've never understood apparently he has
17:05a high IQ
17:07and upon meeting him you would think
17:09he's relatively normal um but you know I
17:13mean people have have certain problems
17:15there's a lot of different varieties of
17:17mental illness um not going to attribute
17:20any specific ones to him but you know he
17:22had a dream he thought he might have
17:23killed somebody when he didn't and he he
17:26took a guilty plea for it so there's
17:28something going on there um don't know
17:30what it is I will say on that subject
17:34you know uh what I find very interesting
17:37is is as you were saying Landon you
17:38would be pissed off at him and you know
17:42in your mind you'd be like oh I want to
17:43find this dude uh make him pay for for
17:46what he's done to me or my family but in
17:49my mind uh as as you went on to say he
17:52is a victim right he's a victim L the
17:55first thing Ryan told me when I said
17:56that he goes no dude the dude had it
17:58work worse than me I was like what he
18:01got you both into this me you know he's
18:03like no he had to literally serve his
18:07whole sentence because well he served 20
18:09years he was in there as as a snitch you
18:12know somebody who does telling someone
18:14else um and and he had to live with the
18:17fact that at some point he realized that
18:19he knew he knew he lied he knew he used
18:22these details that the cops gave him to
18:24testify against an innocent person and
18:26he has to live with all that but like
18:29I've always said I want to just explain
18:31to to people to understand the type of
18:33individual that you are like you don't I
18:36don't understand the mental fortitude
18:37that you have because I would be the
18:40most angry I'm kind of an angry person
18:42as is right like and you you are like
18:46yeah man Life's good like just doing my
18:48thing and yeah this guy had it worse
18:50than me and like the kind and genuine
18:53soul that you are is like like you
18:56inspire me like I I'm so glad to be like
18:59you and I've got to the point where I
19:01consider you one of my boys right and
19:03would do anything for you but it just
19:04like I am in awe of like how you've just
19:08moved on man like it's crazy right on
19:12man I appreciate that I like to think
19:14you know I try to I try to be a good
19:17person and all that jazz but I I really
19:19think it's more you know I'm just I'm a
19:21very pragmatic human being and when you
19:23boil it down the kid was taken advantage
19:26of uh it it you know it destroyed his
19:29life he had nothing to do with this
19:31crime there was evidence to prove he had
19:32nothing to do with it and yet the police
19:35and the
19:36prosecutors chose to put him in prison
19:40and use him as a tool to get me in
19:43prison when they know we were both
19:45innocent and there's a killer still out
19:48on the street they didn't do justice for
19:49the community they didn't do justice for
19:51the family and they put two innocent
19:53people in prison and it is 100% on the
19:56police and the prosecutors in my opinion
19:58right
19:59AB in terms of moving on and being you
20:02know kind of I I don't I don't forgive
20:04them uh I'm
20:06not I my thoughts are not pleasant when
20:10it comes to those individuals you know
20:13you've earned that yeah and they won't
20:15be you know I you know I'm not I'm not
20:17I'm a forgiving person if if a person is
20:20willing to
20:22acknowledge uh their wrongdoings and
20:24apologize for those and and takee
20:29attorney though or this prosecuting
20:30attorney right correct uh and the police
20:33you know um some of them have been like
20:35you know they had to acknowledge their
20:37wrongdoings in in court and then they
20:39leave court and they're like well we
20:40actually didn't do anything like yeah
20:41you did everybody can see it yeah so you
20:45know if they if they acknowledged it and
20:47you know if uh Kevin crane ended up in
20:49prison I forgive him but he hasn't been
20:51there yet so we we'll see we'll see how
20:53that goes what about so explain real
20:55quick hold on real quick like explain
20:58because this is something that I didn't
21:00understand ran until you told me
21:02so the codefendant right he tells this
21:05story he ultimately confesses he signs a
21:07plea deal right so your sentences were
21:10different let's talk about what his
21:12sentence was versus what yours was but
21:15explain to because again I didn't know
21:17this the reason why he ended up having
21:20to serve his full sentence which is
21:22crazy to me yeah it is you know there's
21:25a lot of very strange things with our
21:27criminal justice system uh this being
21:29one of them so because they were able to
21:34basically use him against himself um
21:37they were able to lie to him in
21:38interrogation say that people who didn't
21:41see him saw him make him believe that he
21:43his dreams were real um which we all
21:46able to prove later that those things
21:47didn't happen the police lied multiple
21:49times to him threatened them with
21:51basically a live sentence possibly the
21:52death penalty which you know they were
21:54talking about giving me um it's a very
21:57scary thing people people are going to
21:59admit the things they didn't do to get
22:00out of that right um so he ended up Bing
22:03out to get a 20 year 25 year sentence
22:06basically uh to testify against me and
22:10when he did that you sign this paper and
22:13and in the in the fine
22:15print um and I don't even know if it's
22:18in the fine print honestly it's just the
22:19way our constitution happens to work
22:21with uh with plea deals is even if you
22:25are able to prove that what you took a
22:29deal for didn't happen
22:32um you cannot appeal that you cannot say
22:36hey I'm actually innocent we should
22:38overturn this uh it doesn't matter if
22:40you have video footage of the person who
22:43actually committed the crime evidence
22:45they could have you sleeping in bed on
22:47another video they could have all that
22:49and because you signed that paper you
22:50took a plea deal you are you lose your
22:53constitutional right to appeal so if
22:56that happens and you sign that paper and
22:58you take that sentence the the State
23:01Attorney General will literally get up
23:04and argue in front of a judge saying
23:06that you even though we know you're
23:08innocent you should not be able to go
23:10home because of finality of this this
23:14agreement and and you you chose to take
23:17it so it doesn't matter that's the way
23:18the Constitution works you have no right
23:21to appeal you lose scenario when you
23:23have the death penalty on one side you
23:25have innocence on the other one that's
23:27not guaranteed but you have the
23:29guarantee of whatever it was 20 years
23:31compared to the death it's like the [ __ ]
23:35well it it you
23:36know and at that age he's probably like
23:38well at least I get out at 39 right I
23:40still got a life to live so yeah I'll
23:42sign the damn thing but to me the crazy
23:44thing is like when you see all of the
23:48evidence that doesn't exist and how this
23:50thing played out when you watch the
23:51documentary stuff like you shouldn't
23:53even have to go through an appeals
23:54process right like the evidence is like
23:56you just didn't do it so just open the
23:58[ __ ] [ __ ] cage and let the guys walk
23:59out and let them get on with their life
24:00and like it's crazy but you still have
24:03to go through a process right you would
24:05think here in America you figure out we
24:06[ __ ] up oh [ __ ] right like we need to
24:09get these guys out as fast as possible
24:11that's not the case not the case not not
24:13only is that not the case they will
24:15actively try and keep you in certainly
24:18so L I was telling you about a case and
24:20and I had to seg way into this one
24:22really quick before we move on about the
24:25most absurd thing I've ever heard in our
24:27criminal justice system it's the case of
24:29Amron versus state of Missouri um it
24:32went to the Missouri Supreme Court and
24:36ultimately there was a a guy who was so
24:40I was in the Missouri State
24:41Penitentiary um this guy Amron was in
24:45the same prison but it was in a
24:46different location because it moved uh
24:48from when this happened in the 90s to
24:50whenever I got there they they built a
24:52new one um so I knew a lot of the same
24:54guys that knew him and everything um so
24:58guy Amron was accused of a prison murder
25:01uh this guy was stabbed to death in
25:04front of a bunch of people in the child
25:05Hall pretty gruesome thing um and then
25:09they got these other individuals who
25:11were obviously they're in prison they
25:14they've done some bad things they're
25:15trying to get out got them to testify
25:17against Amon saying that he uh committed
25:20this crime killed this guy and so that
25:23was that am gets another life sentence
25:25something of that nature and is now
25:27we're getting out
25:30um years go by and they were able to
25:32show that through DNA evidence he did
25:35not commit this crime so we know for a
25:37fact he didn't and those people who
25:39testified against him um acknowledge
25:41that they lied they made it up to get a
25:43deal or whatever it was and the Missouri
25:46attorney general argues that because um
25:51it's not a death penalty case you cannot
25:54bring up actual innocence right so for
25:57me
25:58I ended up getting a second degree
26:00felony murders first degree robbery
26:02second degree robber I can't remember
26:03now but I could not file an actual
26:06innocence case because there's no for
26:10whatever reason in Missouri and a lot of
26:12other states they don't allow that
26:14pathway to innocent to get your freedom
26:16unless you have a death penalty case and
26:18you're about to get killed by the state
26:20so they
26:24uh I can't actually so okay so I'm
26:27forgetting one thing he might actually
26:28had a death one case I'm pretty sure you
26:30didn't know but um they end up going all
26:33the way to the Supreme Court of Missouri
26:35and the state argues that even though we
26:38know they lit they say this in court
26:40even though we know he's innocent he
26:42should have to serve the remainder of
26:44his sentence in prison which is a life
26:46sentence um because because there's no
26:50path to to you know proving your
26:53innocence and getting out yeah uh
26:55there's no vehicle to actually get there
26:58legally so this guy should spend the
27:00rest of his life in prison because um
27:04because that doesn't exist even though
27:05we know his innocent how how about the
27:08moral obligation to let the [ __ ] you
27:10like the guy is innocent like who cares
27:12about what's in the law at that point
27:14right like write a new law that's our
27:16criminal justice that is
27:17how but imagine being that attorney on
27:22the other side like how do you sleep at
27:24night arguing based on a piece of paper
27:26and language on that piece of paper when
27:29you have a human being over here that
27:31you know for a fact didn't do the thing
27:34and you're
27:36arguing to have like that's just there a
27:40special place in hell for those types of
27:41people there there is but our system is
27:43set up in the way of wins and losses
27:45right so you and I David we have jobs
27:48right our jobs are to do X or Y and the
27:54prosecuting attorney's job and how he's
27:56incentivized and financially you know
27:58compensated and his status and
28:02everything else in his sphere right same
28:04thing with these police officers these
28:06detectives is set based off of
28:10convictions not convicting the right
28:11person
28:12convictions right well it's that system
28:16yeah it's it's it's screwed from the
28:18jump is basically what I'm getting
28:21at it's it's scary because it's like
28:23debate class right remember in high
28:25school whatever you had debate and it
28:27was like okay you take take this side
28:28and you take this side and no matter
28:30what because it's some hypothetical you
28:32know you're just you're just in there
28:34trying to get a a score grade or
28:35whatever it is um somebody has to take
28:38either side even if you don't like it
28:39whatever you know but it doesn't
28:40actually impact life well that's how
28:42these these attorney generals view every
28:46single CA almost every single one of
28:47them views every single case is well
28:49somebody has to take the other side and
28:53when you're dealing with a human life
28:55literally life or death as in the Amron
28:57case um and a lot your case I mean your
29:01life is yeah sure they weren't going to
29:02execute you but your life's done and
29:04I've seen a lot where they they have
29:06they know people are innocent and they
29:07continue to prosecute them they continue
29:11to fight against the the conviction
29:12being overthrown and if it is and
29:14they'll try to retry them even though
29:16they know they're innocent this happens
29:18every day it is terrifying and it and
29:21they view it as though it's a it's a
29:23school project and it's it's someone's
29:26life it's you know I I I can't I never
29:30in all the years that I exist will I
29:33understand how another human being can
29:35do that I mean you're a serial killer
29:36literally if you do that to somebody and
29:38the scary thing is that is what an
29:41attorney general is by and large you
29:45know that's what they do and they live
29:47with them and this is not one or two
29:49attorney general this is the way our
29:51attorney general system works in every
29:52state in the United States and it's what
29:55do you think Ryan like I mean there's
29:57got to be
29:58there has to be individuals out not not
30:00all of them I would say are like the
30:02individual that I watched in your
30:04documentary he's that guy deserves a
30:06boot and the teeth um to put it lightly
30:09there's got to be good guys or gals out
30:12there argu you know that given the
30:14circumstances do you think it's 5050 I
30:16mean what do you what percentage do you
30:18think I think when they start not like
30:21that I think the way the system is
30:23incentivized creates monsters um you
30:26give a person absolute power with
30:28absolute immunity and they will corrupt
30:30absolutely that's that's the way I
30:32always put it and that's I fundamentally
30:34believe that with people you know
30:35whether it's money or I think I think
30:37that's been proven actually it has yeah
30:40well there's yeah there there's that
30:41whole study with the kids who had power
30:43over kids and uh they're like quote
30:45unquote cosos or whatever but yeah I
30:47think has been proven multiple times and
30:49that's the way the system is like a
30:50prosecutor you
30:53cannot hold accountable for anything um
30:57yeah that in your case right there was
30:59some factual based evidence there that
31:02the prosecutor knew about yeah yeah
31:06unpack that and like because I didn't
31:07understand that either like they have
31:09quote unquote an obligation to disclose
31:12it but there's no [ __ ] consequence if
31:15they don't no yeah no it's it's it's the
31:18law you uh legally have to
31:20disclose um exculpatory evidence but in
31:24my case in a lot of cases they don't you
31:27can prove prove that they had it you can
31:29prove that it aided in putting an
31:31innocent person in prison and yet
31:34there's no consequences for it and why
31:36is that one the law doesn't really allow
31:39for you to prosecute prosecutors two
31:42what what does a prosecutor do when
31:44they're done being a prosecutor or a
31:47judge they go to being a judge who
31:50determines what happens in all these
31:52cases uh judges so and who has to bring
31:55forth the charges prosecutors I mean
31:57it's it's this nasty cycle right um so
32:02in my case and all these other cases
32:03they're not held accountable I think in
32:05the United States it's happened twice uh
32:08that I'm aware of maybe three times um
32:11it might happened twice in Texas but one
32:13case we know very well is the Duke
32:15lacrosse
32:16case um that prosecutor who is just one
32:20of the most disgusting human beings I've
32:21ever seen had DNA evidence proving that
32:24this woman was lying that these kids did
32:26not rape that woman um he hid that
32:30evidence and was moving forward in the
32:34prosecution fortunately these kids out
32:36like some of the best attorneys and paid
32:37hundreds of thousands of dollars to
32:38actually thank God Mommy and Daddy had
32:39them in Duke right right I mean if they
32:42didn't have proper representation we
32:43might not know today and then they were
32:45going to go to prison as raping a a a
32:48person which that is very bad that's not
32:50a good that's terrible especially in
32:53prison you're gonna you're probably
32:55gonna get raped right so
32:58that prosecutor knew everybody were able
33:00to prove that not we they were able to
33:02prove that um he had this evidence was
33:04going to prosecute him anyways he lost
33:06his law license and I think he went to
33:09jail for one night and I think he was
33:11able to regain his law license after a
33:12little while so that that is the extent
33:14of the punishment uh that has happened
33:16to to
33:18prosecutors um and in I've been uh quite
33:22a few they have this Gathering the
33:25Innocence Project of people who've been
33:26wrongfully convicted
33:28at the time there were probably 1,800
33:31exies and there were over 10,000 years
33:34of life lost and at the at the
33:37conference there were like 120 of us um
33:40but I mean we're talking about thousands
33:41and thousands of years lost of life and
33:45a lot of innocent people and of all of
33:48those cases only two or three
33:51prosecutors have been held accountable
33:52to any degree and that largest degree is
33:55losing your license and going to jail
33:56literally for a night or two
33:59so that's an issue because my
34:02fundamental belief and people might
34:03argue is well mistakes can happen there
34:06accidents so on and so
34:08forth I am like I said I'm very
34:11pragmatic I I I do support our Criminal
34:14Justice System but the reality is that
34:17when a wrongful conviction happens more
34:20often than not and by more often I mean
34:22like significantly more often than not
34:25the police and the prosecutor
34:28knew of evidence that proved that
34:31person's innocence now they'll say they
34:33didn't but in most cases you're able to
34:35prove that they did and that is just a a
34:38hard fact that it was not an accident it
34:41was not a mistake it was a calculated
34:44effort to manipulate or hide evidence to
34:47put an innocent person in prison because
34:49they started down this path and their
34:52belief is well our goal is to get a
34:55conviction not to get at the truth
34:59and people don't understand that about
35:01our Criminal Justice System but that's
35:02how it works so so is your going through
35:07all this and I think I can speak on
35:09behalf of uh Landon as well but like I
35:12find myself like getting angry right and
35:16and um and and angry just out of
35:20principle but also angry due to like the
35:23perceived lack of control or influence
35:27that could even have in that moment uh
35:30or in those moments as you're going
35:32through all this stuff and seeing how
35:36evidence is manipulated and um
35:39suppressed and all that type of stuff
35:41because I I even think back to watching
35:43the documentary and seeing the
35:45interviews with the other kid and being
35:48like was this not shared in the [ __ ]
35:49Court like look at what they're doing um
35:53and I guess what I'm curious about is
35:56you think about being in interrogated
35:58for 10 hours um I forget how long but
36:01from answer this quick question and then
36:03I'll finish my question
36:06um so this happened when you were 19 at
36:10what age were you quote unquote
36:12convicted and sent to prison like how
36:13long was that process from the first
36:15interrogation to walking in those prison
36:19doors well that's a multiple part
36:23question I guess so the when you're
36:27arrested
36:28um they put you in
36:30jail um and to get to trial it takes
36:35years often right uh minimum for a
36:38first-degree murder trial year and a
36:40half if it happens before that you are
36:43you are definitely probably getting
36:44screwed you have bad
36:46representation um and some cases take up
36:49to around three years you know so a year
36:51and a half to three years mine took uh I
36:54think it was 18 months to get to trial
36:59um I don't know if you know this Landon
37:01but in in the meantime when you're
37:04sitting in the county jail you're
37:05waiting to go to to trial they often
37:10times give people a bond right so you
37:13can if you pay a certain amount you can
37:15get out you can live your life you
37:16haven't been convicted of anything um so
37:20innocent until proven guilty in this
37:21country right in theory in Theory Y so
37:25and I believe that was a thing it's it's
37:28not it doesn't exist sorry but I had a
37:33bond hearing eight months it took eight
37:36months to get my hearing after I was
37:38arrested so this whole eight months just
37:40to clarify you're in County I'm in the
37:42county jail yeah from the day that they
37:44picked me up on that beautiful day um
37:48and surrounded my car and questioned me
37:51straight to the jail um I did not oh I
37:55could talk so many things about that
37:56that first year I was in the jail I went
37:58outside literally two times two times
38:00Ste foot outside had son on my skin um
38:04that's how the county jail the county
38:05jail people don't realize is
38:07significantly worse than prison like
38:09when I was in the county jail
38:12people would they would celebrate when
38:15they got convicted and they were going
38:16to prison and I didn't understand why
38:18you know in the first month or two but
38:20after a while I realized um so
38:23ultimately eight months later I have my
38:25bond earring I go uh to the judge you
38:28know it's it's a you have it in court
38:29it's public and the judge gives me Bond
38:33did do you are you aware of what my bond
38:36was so they can give you no bond if they
38:39want right you can be a fight risk this
38:42that the other so I'm 19 years old I've
38:44never been convicted of a crime I uh
38:47you're in college you you were in
38:49college college student yeah I was
38:51willing to give up my passports or
38:52whatever they want wear an ankle brace
38:54like anything you know just give me my
38:56life let me let me live let me go back
38:58to school whatever until we can get this
39:00process resolved um the
39:03judge says Okay um
39:06so uh I'm going to go ahead and Grant
39:08bomb in this case we're gonna we're
39:11going to set the amount at $20
39:13million so you need two million cash
39:17that you'll never get back yeah two
39:18million cash you'll never get back um
39:20hold on you never get that back no so
39:23you generally to do the the 10% you have
39:25to give it to like a bondsman whatever
39:28and then they they keep it um because
39:31then they're putting up 20 thou 20
39:33million in collateral I'm not 100%
39:35certain how it works but I you know
39:37that's the thing is when people bond out
39:39they give somebody that 10% and they
39:41don't get it back more often than not I
39:43don't know on a number that high it
39:45would be different you could work out a
39:46deal uh so my dad stands up he says is
39:49that cash or check you know no but uh he
39:52he did but everybody in the courtroom
39:54was like like it just got like cricket
39:57in there and everybody was like what the
39:59[ __ ] so excuse my language but it is a
40:02WTF moment and when you look at the
40:06reality of of bond hearings if if you
40:08don't want a person to go home you don't
40:11you don't said 21 you say no bond um
40:13there was another guy I was locked up
40:15with who actually was a convicted felon
40:18of a very serious crime they had
40:19Footprints of his at this murder scene
40:22his bond was
40:23500,000 uh BTK years later who who
40:28admitted and had evidence that he killed
40:30I think it was they were charging him
40:31with seven murders even though they had
40:33more his bond was only 10 million I had
40:36a $20 million high in highest in the US
40:38pretty much ever period let alone for a
40:41murder charge uh especially one where
40:44there's zero evidence um so anyways that
40:48was uh that was interesting
40:51so so why why do you think that like why
40:54yeah and and I still have another
40:56question I I'm teeing up but I I need to
40:59know this and I and I still had to get
41:01to the end of that one but uh I mean let
41:04me ask you why why do you think that
41:06would
41:07be I mean I mean publicity I don't know
41:11like it keeps you there I mean it was a
41:13fairly public case at that point I don't
41:14know what's your thoughts
41:15David I don't have any other reason I
41:18mean I'm thinking if the option is to go
41:21to the at first I was like to just
41:23collect money for the sake of collecting
41:24money but if it goes to a bondsman and
41:26not the state then
41:27that doesn't really make sense um I
41:31don't know just to be a dick you're
41:33trying to think logically see that's the
41:35thing that's what I I was trying to get
41:36to here you're you're trying to be
41:38logical and this is this is the criminal
41:40justice system my friend if you try to
41:42think logically you're already
41:44behind
41:46nothing in the way our Criminal Justice
41:48System
41:49operates is based off of logic so the
41:53second you go there you know you're
41:54wrong you need to start over um my
41:57belief is the reason that they did that
42:00is because these people are all friends
42:03they're all in the same
42:05Community I'm innocent and they've
42:07arrested me they're trying to make me
42:09out to be this horrible person they're
42:10trying to basically show the community
42:14that I should never go home and they're
42:16they're helping one
42:18another convictions and build their
42:21careers right so whenever Kevin crane my
42:25prosecutor um finish this case he ended
42:29up taking the judge's spot the judge
42:31retired what did the assistant
42:32prosecutor do he turned into the
42:33prosecutor right they all move up
42:35together they all work together they're
42:37all friends they all live in the same
42:39neighborhood they all go to the same
42:40country club you gave away the most
42:42angry part of the documentary for me by
42:44the way when I figured out watch the end
42:46it was like yeah no the guy that
42:48completely [ __ ] you over and knew
42:50about it hid evidence everything else he
42:52doesn't get demoted he gets promoted
42:54yeah like how [ __ ] up is that 100% so
42:59uh and then you know and again that is
43:02not exclusive to my case that
43:05is almost across the board how it works
43:08in every every case where you can prove
43:10innocence prove a wrongful conviction
43:13prove that the prosecutor held evidence
43:15that was exculpatory manipulated people
43:18did all types of terrible things um so
43:21just briefly to get to the end of your
43:23question David um yeah so I was in the
43:27count in jail for 18 months obviously I
43:29was not able to make bail and uh and
43:32then was convicted because obviously
43:35evidence was not given to us it was
43:37hidden from us among many other things
43:41um and then I sat I will say they still
43:45had zero physical evidence because you
43:47were never there like the fact that they
43:49got this conviction on zero evidence and
43:53all off of this kid's quote unquote
43:55dream is mindblowing like right and then
43:58there's there's testimony from uh people
44:02who convicted child molester who they
44:04got to lie and he got out of prison
44:05that's very suspect the actual uh
44:08witness actually told uh the the
44:11prosecutor that I and Arison were not
44:14the people that she saw well
44:16interestingly enough that evidence that
44:18that testimony was never given to us
44:22yeah literally you and your attorney did
44:24not even know that she had come forward
44:26and said those two individuals were not
44:28the people I saw murder that man like
44:30that's literally they hid that from you
44:32guys there was an eyewitness there that
44:35literally should have just been case
44:36over done and she went in and argued
44:40with the prosecuting attorney that that
44:42wasn't the case he should have just been
44:43like all right well clearly we've we
44:45screwed up here like but no not only
44:48they charged forward did that happen but
44:50they made her feel without saying we're
44:53going to charge you with something but
44:55they made her feel as though
44:57she would be charged with something
44:59unless if she changed her testimony you
45:02know what what she actually saw she was
45:04scared and she she you know this is this
45:07is her testimony on the stand that she
45:09told the prosecutor before trial we were
45:11not the people and that they were like
45:13no they are you need to say they were
45:15and if you don't there could be
45:17consequences um I mean that's her
45:19testimony and that and that was never
45:21given to us fortunately uh she reached
45:24out years later and while she was saving
45:26Gra right one of them yeah there were
45:29actually well that's the thing dad and
45:30her my dad her there were actually quite
45:32a few in the sense that they they
45:36withheld so much information from us
45:39that we learned quite a few things there
45:41was another witness at the detective
45:42talk to that says they saw us leaving
45:45this bar and going like leave driving
45:47away uh that was never given to us we
45:50found that out years later she came
45:51forward and was like no we saw them
45:53leave like what how how could they have
45:55saved if we saw them leave um there's
45:58multiple things like that but long story
46:02long I was in the county jail for 18
46:04months um after the conviction sat for
46:07another month and then they took me out
46:08immediately after sentencing went to
46:11reception and diagnostic which is like
46:14an intermediary thing um for two month
46:17two three months and then taken to
46:20Maximum Security Prison where I spent
46:22the next eight years or so so
46:27over that time period And as I I think
46:29through you know some of the folks that
46:31we've had in the podcast that you know
46:33own businesses and people who are
46:35listening to this that either own
46:37businesses uh or want to own a
46:40business there can be a lot of highs and
46:44lows in that along that journey and
46:48there's a lot
46:50of mental toughness and
46:56certain mindset that you need to
46:59persevere through the [ __ ] of building a
47:02a business uh in order to succeed and
47:06and come out on the other side
47:09successful and Alive
47:13um if you can try and unpack I'm just
47:16trying to think again put myself in your
47:18shoes I feel
47:20like At first I'd feel kind of cocky of
47:24like oh this is this ain't nothing I
47:26wasn't there this is that like this is
47:27not going to be a big deal to then wait
47:30a second I'm going to jail while I wait
47:34wait a second it's going to cost $2
47:36million to get me out and that's only
47:3910% of the total bond to holy [ __ ] I'm
47:42still here I'm still here I'm still here
47:47and you fast forward 18 months um and
47:50then you actually get
47:52convicted like try to walk us through
47:57that
47:59presumably emotional roller coaster like
48:03how did you I guess I'll just say it
48:06like i' I'd think about just saying [ __ ]
48:08it and off myself for sure if I realized
48:12that I had no control and then even when
48:14you're
48:15convicted spending another eight years
48:18like how did you
48:20not cuz like right now if I met you on
48:23the street I had no idea about your
48:24backstory I'd be like this is a super
48:26chill kind's happy dude like how did you
48:30not go [ __ ]
48:33crazy throughout this process like what
48:35was that emotional Journey like from
48:39walking into the police station for the
48:40first
48:41day over the next [ __ ] almost 10
48:44years and you got a life sentence too
48:46berie right yeah yeah yeah it was so
48:49when the conviction came down it was
48:51life yeah I mean life is
48:54technically 30 years or more and I was G
48:5740
48:58uh so yeah I mean I would have been I
49:02would have got almost like 80 something
49:04wait no would whatever 60 60 yeah I
49:08guess now that I'm like 40 I'm like 80
49:11but
49:13no damn I'm getting old um all right so
49:18very good question it's interesting
49:20David how you you were talking about how
49:22um you know like I'm still here still
49:25here still um
49:27I felt that you know that's something
49:29that it's interesting that you have that
49:31perspective you didn't experience it but
49:33that's exactly kind of what it felt like
49:36except for there was you know this added
49:38layer where evidence would come in you
49:41know I'm in the county jail um and it's
49:45just imagine being in like a cinder
49:49block
49:50cave uh you can't see out like you you
49:53don't you know I mean they don't have
49:55Windows you know you don't see out
49:57um there's one TV there's seven other
50:00individuals locked in this this center
50:03block room with you um they're very
50:06volatile most of them know each other
50:10uh it's the noise never stops the lights
50:13don't go out they don't feed you enough
50:17it's it's like sensory deprivation in a
50:20way that U it's un undescribable I mean
50:23you you lose your mind and I've seen a
50:25lot of people really really lose their
50:28stuff and um and it's scary because you
50:32know you're in there with literally
50:34people who are in there for murder I was
50:36in violent P tank murder rape robbery if
50:39you see it on the news you know you turn
50:41on your local news at night and you're
50:42like oh this horrible thing happened and
50:44we see it every night well we would do
50:47that and then an hour or two later that
50:50person would come walking through the
50:52door and they're your new they're your
50:54new neighbor you know you're in there
50:55with them for the next next three six 10
50:5812 months um it's wild you know I mean I
51:02remember one guy there was a a murderer
51:04at a gas station um stabbed some dude
51:07went on the Run was on the run for two
51:08or three days uh and they they're like
51:12you know we're watching it like oh [ __ ]
51:13he's gonna be here soon and then they
51:15like oh we caught him you know and he's
51:17been questioned and he's he's gonna he's
51:20you know he's going to go to jail um
51:23like we were it was movie night Friday
51:25nights if you don't get in trouble and
51:26the tank they play some janky movie for
51:28you movie night this dude comes in I
51:31mean he looks rough you know his hair is
51:32messed up and he's you know he doesn't
51:35have anything and he comes in and he he
51:37knows a couple people in the tank and
51:38he's just talking [ __ ] to him like
51:40nothing ever happened and uh he's like a
51:43where my bag of popcorn you know like
51:44[ __ ] this guy just got arrested for
51:46killing he literally did it um wow but
51:50you know um I ended up getting to know
51:53him really well he's he's an all right
51:54guy hly but um it's his it's such a
51:57strange thing uh to experience that and
52:01so there are other times where I
52:03remember one time they were they were
52:05rude to my mom in a visit uh because you
52:08get one visit behind this glass you had
52:10to talk on a phone through the glass and
52:13they call me up late and the guy was a
52:15dick to her um I think about something
52:18she was wearing or whatever my mom's
52:19like the most you know like she's a
52:21school teacher doesn't dress
52:22provocatively at all like nothing like
52:24she's when we say they just to clarify I
52:26like are you talking another inmate or
52:28are you talking like good question the
52:30cosos the directional officers of the
52:33institution um we rude tour and so uh
52:37when I was walking away from our visit
52:41um there's like the the Pod the tank
52:44where the the COS sit it's tinted glass
52:47or whatever and then you know there's
52:48like another thing of glass so I mean I
52:51didn't even you can't even see if
52:52anybody's looking your way or whatever I
52:53was just so pissed I flipped them off
52:55and I got back and there like oh you're
52:57going to the hole for I think it was
52:58like 15 days for flipping us off uh so
53:01then you go to the hole you know and
53:02you're dealing with that situation I
53:03remember part of the time I was in the
53:05hole and evidence had come back and this
53:08is probably three four months after I
53:10was arrested you know and I just was
53:12struggling because you're in this
53:14environment and you have zero control
53:16over anything you're you're sleep
53:18deprived you're terrified you're
53:21wondering why this is happening to you
53:22and evidence comes back and as I as I
53:26told them you know you can test whatever
53:27you want they got my car they tested the
53:29Tire Tool they tested other like loomin
53:31all the car and everything impossible to
53:33commit this crime it's very bloody
53:34without leaving evidence I mean it's
53:36it's impossible without getting into
53:38your car and and they're not being
53:40something right um but the weapon they
53:43thought was used and the car and
53:45everything all comes back clean and I'm
53:48like duh obviously all right now that
53:52with all the facts that that prove I
53:54couldn't have done this um they're going
53:56to let me out right so I'm waiting I'm
53:58like okay today the door is going to
54:00open like we we messed up soorry nope
54:03next day they're gonna they're gonna
54:05open the door nope and uh I'm just like
54:08what what how how is how are they not
54:12you know I still believe that they would
54:13do the right thing um and that happened
54:16time and time again where evidence would
54:19come back and it would further prove my
54:22innocence and they would just be like
54:25doesn't matter we don't care we don't
54:26care everything that we thought was our
54:28Theory this this blows it out of the
54:30water but we don't care we'll we'll find
54:31a way to convict you and that's what
54:33they did they got a convicted John
54:34Mester out of prison and uh and had him
54:36testify against me to cooporate
54:38Erikson's uh testimony But ultimately um
54:42you know you do lose your mind you go
54:45crazy um I became a missing Thro you
54:48know I didn't I didn't trust people
54:50anymore as as I don't know how one could
54:53you lose faith in humanity um you you
54:56know you're arrested for this crime and
54:57they're telling the world that you are
54:59this this hinest human being and all
55:01your friends disappear you know
55:04fortunately I had a couple that stood by
55:06my side and family is everything truly
55:09um they they believed in me they support
55:12to me but even then I told them and this
55:14is very important I'm sure we've all
55:16seen cases where people are like my son
55:19couldn't have done that he's such a good
55:20boy or my friend couldn't have done that
55:22he's such a good guy or whatever F that
55:25you know my m ality was I don't want
55:28anybody who knows me saying anything
55:30like he couldn't have done it because a
55:32b or c the only reason that I want you
55:35to talk about why I couldn't have done
55:37it is because of the facts right and
55:39that's something we hit hard from day
55:41one is I'm not going to do this stuff
55:44that prosecutions do where they just
55:46make up stuff and say you're guilty
55:48because you were at a bar at 10 o'clock
55:49or something like that you know just
55:51things that are circumstantial and they
55:53they're not real facts and they don't
55:55they don't warrant getting a guilty or
55:58guilty verdict we only stuck with the
56:01facts my son is innocent because ABC
56:05fact yeah I don't believe he could have
56:07done it but who cares about that here
56:09are the facts um and so we had the facts
56:12early and and I kept kept getting you
56:16know stuck in prison they still want to
56:18let me out so you lose it but what's
56:22interesting about this question is you
56:23see these people nowadays on Instagram
56:26or or Tik Tok or whatever it is and a
56:30lot of them have never been through
56:31anything or you know what some
56:33small meaningless thing in their life
56:36happened and they they blew it into
56:37something that's out of proportion and
56:39they're like man I'm GNA teach you how
56:41to be resilient and be a badass leader
56:43and this and that and some of them are
56:45real some of them are are you know legit
56:47but 90% of them are garbage and I'm
56:50listening to these people and I'm like
56:51man let me tell you about resiliency
56:53right like it takes a lot of hard hard
56:56work dedication motivation you have to
56:59pick yourself up by the bootstraps every
57:01day there are no excuses right you have
57:03to put in the the effort mentally and
57:06physically to build yourself into a
57:09leader to a strong person to a Survivor
57:12and a lot of those people have never
57:13done it so some of their advice is just
57:15regurgitated from people who actually
57:16have some of it's garbage but my
57:19fundamental belief is that it is it's
57:22like working out it's simple to be
57:24healthy right eat real food don't eat
57:28processed garbage um take your ass to
57:30the gym work out get outside work out
57:34drink water you know stay consistent if
57:37you do those things you don't need OIC
57:39you don't need all that other garbage
57:40you're going to be healthy you're going
57:42to be fit you're GNA you're going to
57:43live a long healthy life right just
57:47like success in the workplace or success
57:50in your personal life it does take a lot
57:53of work it's [ __ ] people try to cut
57:55corners but you know I had to bring
57:57myself back
57:59from not trusting people I had to find
58:02good people to surround myself with
58:03right and I had to work hard to build
58:05those relationships I had to figure out
58:08a way to say okay if if I have this
58:10mentality my life nothing good is going
58:13to happen from it from not not liking
58:15people being mad at the world being
58:18pissed off at everything or or or just
58:21being this this victim mentality right
58:23so what do I got to do I got to build my
58:25own life I'm going to go work out every
58:27day I'm going to build discipline in
58:28what I do on a daily basis I read for
58:30two hours a day no matter what I wrote
58:33for an hour every day no matter what I
58:35worked out every day no matter what and
58:38that that was kind of the the building
58:40blocks right you start there and then
58:43you grow with what you're reading you
58:44can Implement a lot of those things um
58:47and then you build relationships and you
58:49you start um growing in that respect but
58:52it it's not that difficult and it all
58:54starts with discipline it all starts
58:57with not playing the victim card right
59:00like yeah I was a VI I was taking
59:02advantage of I was these people I had no
59:04control in my life these people did this
59:05[ __ ] to me but and I think this is part
59:08of the reason I got a $20 million bill I
59:09think this is part of the reason I got
59:11set up while I was in prison by the SE
59:14the correctional officers and put in the
59:16hole for a year because they wanted to
59:18see somebody give up they wanted to see
59:20somebody depressed and pissed off and
59:23when I was in prison I had three jobs
59:25where it was tough to get one I got
59:27along with all the other inmates I was
59:30jacked as hell my ID wouldn't even sit
59:31on my chest right because I was so big
59:34and and I just you know I walked around
59:35with a smile on my face chilling because
59:37I worked on me every day and I knew that
59:40if I keep doing the right thing and I
59:42keep pushing forward and I keep growing
59:45mentally and physically I'm going to
59:47prove my innocence and between now and
59:49then I'm alive I'm living my life and
59:52I'm not going to do it in a way that
59:56back at and say I wasted all those years
59:59you know I'm not going to let those
1:00:00people let me waste my years F them
1:00:04that's what I did and that's what people
1:00:05I think do in life you know they they
1:00:07let other people waste their life but we
1:00:11are all in control of our own lives
1:00:13these just people lose track of that my
1:00:15I'm just gonna well I'm just gonna
1:00:17allude to we're gonna need to do a part
1:00:20two to this because there's a lot in
1:00:23there
1:00:24that so
1:00:28how long do you think I don't know if
1:00:29you track this or if you know for
1:00:31certain but like there's certainly a
1:00:33period of time that you felt bad and you
1:00:36felt like a victim and you felt like
1:00:38[ __ ] and then there you know and then
1:00:40you've switched and said okay I'm going
1:00:42to take control of this I'm curious to
1:00:44know how long you were kind of in a rut
1:00:47for before you made the conscious
1:00:49decision to get your [ __ ] together and
1:00:51and focus on discipline and control what
1:00:53you can control and also you know
1:00:56everyone's heard the saying of you know
1:00:57you're the average of the five people
1:00:59you hang out with the most um let's just
1:01:02say that the average or the five people
1:01:04that you hung out with probably weren't
1:01:06the best citizens but you even mentioned
1:01:08you know the guy who uh you know was
1:01:11convicted of of actual murder you're
1:01:14like he actually wasn't a bad guy
1:01:16somewhat tongue and- cheek I would
1:01:17assume to a degree um but like I and
1:01:21then I also and I struggle with this
1:01:24because you're supposed to ask one
1:01:26question at a time but I have a lot the
1:01:28other thing is you know you walk in to
1:01:34to prison and you're like oh what are
1:01:37you in here for oh well I'm innocent
1:01:39it's like yeah yeah so so so are we all
1:01:43right so there yeah so so like there's
1:01:46so much [ __ ] just in those three
1:01:49questions of like again how long did you
1:01:53feel sorry for yourself before you made
1:01:54a decision to move forward
1:01:57how did you not become like your
1:02:00peers and then how did you deal with the
1:02:03fact that you were inocent did you even
1:02:05try to convince others that you were in
1:02:08there with that you were or were you
1:02:09just like yeah I'm in here too
1:02:12like I remember I remember walk watching
1:02:15the documentary because yeah that's like
1:02:17knowing you there was a moment in the
1:02:19documentary where I was kind of
1:02:20heartbroken because again you are that
1:02:22upbeat happy person and it was in the
1:02:26documentary it was when they had the
1:02:28recorded phone conversation between you
1:02:29and your old man right and you and your
1:02:31pops are talking and you could just tell
1:02:34you were you were [ __ ] down right and
1:02:38when I heard that personally as you as
1:02:39my boy I was like H that one hurt like
1:02:42because you could I could just
1:02:43tell you were having a day that it was
1:02:46like you know your dad's out there
1:02:48fighting and you're in they're like I'm
1:02:51I'm helpless I mean how could you not
1:02:53right but like that sucked yeah how long
1:02:55was that was that funk and before you
1:02:57kind of pulled yourself out and were
1:02:58like you know what I'm G to just work on
1:03:00me and do me yeah it's uh it's a good
1:03:04question it's it's a journey right um
1:03:07and I think that a lot of people forget
1:03:12that figuring out whatever it is that
1:03:15you would need to figure out in life
1:03:17whether it's uh your your your fitness
1:03:19goals or your relationships or your
1:03:22business there's no quick fix it's
1:03:25always a Journey there's going to be a
1:03:27lot of ups there's going to be even more
1:03:28Downs right
1:03:31and it's not like I
1:03:34I consciously went on this journey to to
1:03:39take control of my life I just knew that
1:03:42I didn't want to become like the people
1:03:45that did this to
1:03:47me um I wanted to be the opposite of
1:03:49them and so what was the opposite of
1:03:51them being a good person trying to give
1:03:53back trying to help other people trying
1:03:55to trying
1:03:57to be more conscious of the the reality
1:04:03around me my reality other people's
1:04:06reality um and that's this you know the
1:04:08starting point right and so the other
1:04:11thing my dad told me he's like look
1:04:13man I can't be in there with you to help
1:04:16you and this happened early on he's like
1:04:18I'll do everything I can to help you out
1:04:20here but you know you're in this this
1:04:23place with some bad [ __ ] dudes you
1:04:25you know and uh and you got to protect
1:04:28yourself he's like you need to do
1:04:30everything you can to make yourself
1:04:32stronger faster and
1:04:33smarter
1:04:35and you know it took me a while to to
1:04:38understand that uh but I took it to
1:04:40heart and that was that was something
1:04:43that you know I wasn't successful at it
1:04:45at first right we're not going to be
1:04:48successful initially I mean at that
1:04:50point I was still trying to figure out
1:04:51what was happening to me trying to
1:04:53figure out how to survive in jail trying
1:04:54to figure out culture in there trying to
1:04:57figure out so many different things um
1:04:59but I would I would read like non-stop
1:05:03for two months straight and I wouldn't
1:05:05work out and then I would go to working
1:05:07out hard as hell for two months straight
1:05:10but I wouldn't read you know and and I I
1:05:13couldn't put all the pieces together
1:05:15because there was just there's so much I
1:05:16was struggling
1:05:18with um and so in the county jail you
1:05:21know it was
1:05:23tough to to bring all the pieces
1:05:25together I think more towards the end I
1:05:28was able to but you're also very
1:05:29stressed because they're trying to uh
1:05:31trying to take your life you know and
1:05:32you you you
1:05:33can't come to terms with that um so
1:05:36where I
1:05:37really
1:05:38[Music]
1:05:40grasped you know the concept of who I
1:05:42wanted to be and how I wanted to get
1:05:44myself there was in prison I uh so this
1:05:49is probably two years after being
1:05:51arrested I'd been through all that I'd
1:05:53been convicted I got to prison I got got
1:05:55into the yard um the yard being just
1:05:58general population you're out there with
1:06:00all these dudes you're getting tested
1:06:02you're you're dealing with a lot of [ __ ]
1:06:04and I was talking to this girl uh she
1:06:07wrote me she came up and saw me a few
1:06:09times and I thought I was in love and
1:06:11all that you know she was great um but
1:06:14in one fail swoop not to go too much
1:06:17into details she ended up cheating on me
1:06:22with my best friend the only like one of
1:06:24the only friends I had left oddly enough
1:06:27um who was free obviously and the other
1:06:30this other girl that we talked to kind
1:06:32of got taken in the situation and she I
1:06:35think she wanted to be with me and was
1:06:37jealous and said some stuff to this girl
1:06:38and then she cheated and so I lost all
1:06:40three of them at once and this is this
1:06:42is Christmas Eve the day before
1:06:44Christmas I found out oh like did you
1:06:46guys hook up I had that call she's like
1:06:48well we have said like you know but you
1:06:50did you know did the other thing and I'm
1:06:52like
1:06:54man and I real at that moment all three
1:06:56of these people were [ __ ] and uh and I
1:06:59lost all of them you know most of my
1:07:02what few friends I had in life uh and
1:07:05that I my support group outside of
1:07:06family was gone in in a heartbeat and it
1:07:09was Christmas you know and uh
1:07:12and I think when people say you got to
1:07:14reach Rock Bottom I think I mean it's
1:07:16true you know whether you're an
1:07:16alcoholic or whatever it is you know you
1:07:19reach rock bottom and and otherwise
1:07:20you're kind of in this delusion and I
1:07:24walked out to the child Hall the next
1:07:27day or night or whatever it was and I
1:07:28could see for the first time in a long
1:07:32time the the the sadness and the anger
1:07:37and the despair that surrounded me in
1:07:39prison right and it was the only time in
1:07:44my life I've ever been depressed and I
1:07:45was like after about a month of that I
1:07:48was like you know what I can't live my
1:07:50life like this I can't live my life like
1:07:52these people you
1:07:53know I I have to figure out how to get
1:07:57control
1:07:58and and that's when I really started
1:08:01that's I was like no I'm going to get
1:08:02back to those things I felt better when
1:08:04I worked out I felt better when I was
1:08:06growing my mind when I was reading books
1:08:08and learning stuff learning about
1:08:10history learning about you know how the
1:08:12world works I really enjoy uh like you
1:08:15know biographies and things of that
1:08:16nature and then a lot of science stuff
1:08:18so I read a lot of those weird things
1:08:20and um that's when I I feel best so I
1:08:24did it kind of to feel better but also
1:08:25because I didn't want to be these sad
1:08:29depressed angry people I didn't want to
1:08:30be the people who did this to me you
1:08:32know um so actually I have a book out
1:08:36and then another one that I'm gonna
1:08:38write but the title of my new book
1:08:41hopefully nobody steals it I'm sure they
1:08:42won't but it's in the self-help section
1:08:44and the reason I say this is because who
1:08:46knows I might not never write it but I
1:08:48just like the concept of it and I want
1:08:50to give people the concept and you walk
1:08:52through the self- up section and there's
1:08:53a book titled hate
1:08:56and people like what hate like why
1:08:59um the subtitle is turning negative
1:09:02energy into positive action right like I
1:09:05said I'm a pragmatist to me I believe
1:09:09that the root of of growing the root of
1:09:12getting out of all the [ __ ] that you
1:09:15need to get out of in your own life and
1:09:17become a better
1:09:18person you have to start with
1:09:20acknowledgement right and one of the
1:09:23things I had to acknowledge was like
1:09:24people view hey as a negative um and it
1:09:27generally is it's a bad thing because
1:09:30people suppress it we are all going to
1:09:32feel hate and people don't want to
1:09:35acknowledge this but we are all going to
1:09:36feel hate we're all going to hate
1:09:37something someone some you know
1:09:40something that happened to them whatever
1:09:42it is and if you push that away and you
1:09:44don't acknowledge it then that'll eat
1:09:45you up so for me I was like no I'm going
1:09:48to acknowledge I hate these people that
1:09:51did this to me I hate them more than
1:09:53anything in this world and I hate you
1:09:55know what's happening in my life
1:09:58so I can either dwell in that or I can
1:10:01take that energy and grow and just just
1:10:04let it drive me let it push me forward
1:10:06and just push more weight and read more
1:10:08books and and build better like
1:10:11relationships and smile more whatever it
1:10:13is right uh and that's what I did man I
1:10:16just pushed so hard in everything in my
1:10:18life and every every step forward I did
1:10:23uh in that in that pushing and whatever
1:10:26physically or mentally it was I felt
1:10:28better and I knew I had more control of
1:10:30my life even though I was still in
1:10:32prison even though these people could
1:10:33tell me where I was going to sleep and
1:10:34what I was going to eat and who I had to
1:10:36be around with I had control of my life
1:10:38at that moment and they couldn't do [ __ ]
1:10:40about it and I swear they knew it and it
1:10:42pissed them off and that drove me even
1:10:43more because I [ __ ] hated them and if
1:10:45they were pissed off then I was happy
1:10:47you know and that's it and uh I still
1:10:49use that to grow I I got it I got to
1:10:52interject because it like it it just
1:10:54clicked for me I remember watching the
1:10:57documentary and like the whole time I'm
1:11:01stressed I'm angry I'm sad um side note
1:11:05I was so proud of your dad I was like
1:11:08like holy [ __ ] like talk about love
1:11:14um and then it would like pan to
1:11:18you and I'm
1:11:21like this [ __ ] is smiling
1:11:24smirking right now like what like what's
1:11:27going on and it just clicked for me
1:11:30where I feel like in that moment like
1:11:33you like you you won like you like you
1:11:36you kind of reflected and was were
1:11:39like as much as you guys messed up my
1:11:42life like you've turned me into who I am
1:11:45and I feel like there's a certain level
1:11:47of hate but there's I'd imagine a
1:11:49certain level of gratitude to a degree
1:11:52because you use that hate to become the
1:11:55person that you are today in so many
1:11:57different ways but I remember I was like
1:12:00so confused when it panned over to you
1:12:01and you were smirking and kind of
1:12:02smiling in a good mood I'm like I'd be
1:12:05pissed and it's I don't know if I'm
1:12:07making the wrong connection but at least
1:12:09from what you just shared it it makes me
1:12:11think that you look back and you're like
1:12:13yeah you you couldn't break me well yeah
1:12:16and you got to pick your little you
1:12:17don't have much to celebrate win wise
1:12:19when you're in this roll or shoes that
1:12:22he was in so you know if you could get a
1:12:24little win you take it where you could
1:12:26get it right yeah yeah and and I don't
1:12:29know the exact instance you're talking
1:12:30about but I do I do think you probably
1:12:31saw saw it accurately to me it wasn't
1:12:35even it wasn't a little win it was a
1:12:37huge win it was
1:12:39a you know to me it was I I believed
1:12:44that I would prove my innocence one day
1:12:46I believe that I would get my life back
1:12:50and at that moment I knew that I I in a
1:12:53way I had my life back already now I
1:12:55couldn't do the certain certain things
1:12:56that I wanted to do and obviously they
1:12:59had control of those those aspects of My
1:13:01Life um eating sleeping where I was and
1:13:04all that jazz but I just knew that it
1:13:09drove him crazy I knew that they knew
1:13:11they had lost it's just they didn't know
1:13:13when when the loss was coming you know
1:13:16it's just like being behind you know 80
1:13:18points in a basketball game and there's
1:13:21there's no way you're going to come back
1:13:23and you know that's kind of how I felt I
1:13:27just I and I and I came to the
1:13:29realization that you know every appeal
1:13:31that I had it was going to take another
1:13:33year before I even before I even had the
1:13:35opportunity to to succeed in that appeal
1:13:38and get my opportunity to prove my
1:13:40innocence and go home um and so I was
1:13:42like you know people could view it in
1:13:44two ways like oh another year of my life
1:13:45is gone I'm going to be depressed I'm G
1:13:47to sit here and be angry or I got a year
1:13:50to be the best me so that the second I
1:13:53get out I can do the things that I need
1:13:54to do
1:13:55to to live a good life to to have the
1:13:58freedom that I want um and so I you know
1:14:01I took advantage of every day uh every
1:14:04one of those years U but I want to say
1:14:07too you
1:14:09know I I did a lot for myself a lot of
1:14:13growth
1:14:15and you know it was all my
1:14:17responsibility uh you have to put in the
1:14:19work yourself but for me it was a
1:14:23very very important component of having
1:14:26that support and like you were talking
1:14:28about talking to my dad on the phone and
1:14:30you could hear that that wasn't the only
1:14:32phone call like that you know there were
1:14:34a lot of phone calls where I needed that
1:14:37and if I didn't have that support if I
1:14:39didn't have that knowledge and that help
1:14:42both from my my father my mother mother
1:14:45even my sister like I probably would
1:14:48have not had the strength to do the
1:14:51things that I needed to do for myself
1:14:53right oh it's easy to see why people
1:14:54would would pull the plug on themselves
1:14:56right if they don't have that support
1:14:57system out there like at least you knew
1:15:00you had people outside still fighting
1:15:02for you right but if you didn't have
1:15:04that I could see like very realistically
1:15:07why people are like yep Tie the bed
1:15:10sheets together let's go right it is
1:15:12interesting I you know there's a couple
1:15:14instances where I do Wonder like so for
1:15:16me
1:15:18I there's a couple like hard facts like
1:15:21I I could never admit to something I
1:15:23didn't do uh that it would never happen
1:15:25I don't but it does happen in around a
1:15:27quarter of all wrongful commiss cases
1:15:29and I'm like how does that happen I
1:15:31don't know but it does happen a lot it's
1:15:32proven um I never would have harmed
1:15:35myself to me um I think that even before
1:15:38I knew it that that hate that uh more of
1:15:42like a some somewhat of like a type of
1:15:44Revenge fact or whatever it is like I
1:15:45would never do that to myself because
1:15:47someday I'm going to I'm going to get
1:15:49out and you know
1:15:53um I there's no way that I can make
1:15:57those people pay for those
1:15:59mistakes in a legal positive way right
1:16:02that will hopefully help other people um
1:16:05kind of as exposing them like we're
1:16:06doing now and like have done through the
1:16:08shows and things like that if if I if I
1:16:10do take my own life right that that
1:16:13opportunity to make the changes
1:16:15necessary to expose those people
1:16:17whatever it is will be lost and I'm so
1:16:20vengeful that I don't want to it might
1:16:23take 40 50 80 years years but I'm going
1:16:25to I'm going to get out and I'm going to
1:16:27expose these people right and I'm going
1:16:29to make sure that the world knows who
1:16:30they are I'm going to make sure the
1:16:31world remembers them I'm going to make
1:16:33sure that I do everything I can to try
1:16:36to get them held responsible legally U
1:16:39we still have things that we plan on
1:16:40doing in the near future to you know to
1:16:43to maybe get charges brought U maybe get
1:16:47license lost whatever it is it's going
1:16:48to take a lot of work right it's just
1:16:50not the way our system's structured but
1:16:52I couldn't do it because
1:16:55like to me I have to I have to live for
1:16:57that no matter how long it takes U so
1:17:00and that's the interesting thing but I
1:17:02will also say this there are people who
1:17:04don't have any help uh and there are
1:17:07also on the same same side of the point
1:17:10people who have life without the
1:17:13possibility of parole sentences and I
1:17:15wonder how both of those individuals do
1:17:18it I don't I don't know and there's a
1:17:20lot of them people that don't have any
1:17:21support I I mean and they and they are
1:17:23they've figured out a way to be positive
1:17:26constructive people and people who have
1:17:28with that have done the same thing and I
1:17:30and I just I would never take my own
1:17:32life but I I'm like how how do these a
1:17:35lot of people in that circumstance are
1:17:37probably have come from different
1:17:39circumstances than the three of us on
1:17:40here from loving families right like
1:17:42they've they've come up broken homes
1:17:44they've come up you know I just yeah I
1:17:46think all three of us would probably be
1:17:49okay because we are that hard-headed and
1:17:52arrogant that we' just be like yeah
1:17:54we'll find a way to still win yeah but I
1:17:57could totally
1:17:58see people who were had more unfortunate
1:18:02circumstances where it just got AB
1:18:03Bizzle and they were like yeah the
1:18:05easier route is going the other way
1:18:07which is which is sad super sad right it
1:18:09is it is and uh and we're we're we're
1:18:12and that's the thing is like you know
1:18:14you you know that and you see that you
1:18:16realize that I think a lot of people
1:18:19don't respect the mentality they were
1:18:22given by their families or they grew up
1:18:24with right and they ignore those those
1:18:26things like I am who I am because the
1:18:29way I was raised first and foremost the
1:18:31reason I was able to get in there and
1:18:32survive and say I don't give a [ __ ] who
1:18:35surrounds me or how threatened I am I'm
1:18:38gonna survive this prison [ __ ] I'm not
1:18:40going to back down I'm not going to be
1:18:42taken advantage of and I you know to me
1:18:44in prison it's just the second somebody
1:18:47takes advantage of you once you're done
1:18:49they're going to keep doing it other
1:18:50people are going to do it and I you know
1:18:54people who who haven't had the fortune
1:18:56that we have in life don't get those
1:18:58kind of things often um and then and to
1:19:02me I'm just so appreciative of that and
1:19:04that's again some of the things that
1:19:06helped me survive and drive and grow is
1:19:09just knowing how fortunate I was and
1:19:12knowing that I do have the right
1:19:14mentality and growth and and mindset
1:19:16because of the people my
1:19:21upbringing like what they gave me you
1:19:23know so it's you know people who don't
1:19:25respect that I think they end up failing
1:19:26a lot you know if you think you're the
1:19:27[ __ ] and you're the only reason you're
1:19:29the [ __ ] you're going to fail because
1:19:31you're not you're ignoring all that was
1:19:34given to you by outside
1:19:36influences I hate that that pisses me
1:19:38off say I love that line right
1:19:40there yeah I couldn't agree more what
1:19:44what was it
1:19:46like I mean what was it like interacting
1:19:50with prisoners like people who actually
1:19:53did teror things like the dude showed up
1:19:56a celebrity like like how did that did
1:19:59they believe that you were innocent did
1:20:01you even try to convince them did you
1:20:03just like what what were those
1:20:06interactions like like did you keep to
1:20:08yourself did you just
1:20:10assimilate like that th that whole thing
1:20:13is
1:20:15intriguing um
1:20:18yes all the above it's it's so many
1:20:22things it's uh
1:20:25yes and no to all of it I mean there's
1:20:27there's
1:20:28so it's a fluid learning kind of
1:20:33adjustment I mean every day it's
1:20:34different right different people are
1:20:36coming and going different people are
1:20:37getting out different people are coming
1:20:39in different people are going to The
1:20:40Hole uh different people are getting out
1:20:42of the hole it's just and the hole is
1:20:44what solitary solitary adeg admin
1:20:48administrative
1:20:50segregation
1:20:52um what that you're just on lock down 23
1:20:55hours a day right you're 24 hours I mean
1:20:57you literally go into your bathroom uh
1:21:01and lock the door come out and have
1:21:03somebody come bring you know the worst
1:21:06meal You' ever eat in your life to you
1:21:08twice a day and then and then three
1:21:10times a week have somebody come and put
1:21:12handcuffs on you and walk you 10 feet to
1:21:14a
1:21:15shower um and then walk you back and
1:21:18that's it that's you know that's it um
1:21:21you get visits though after a while uh
1:21:24which I did and they actually put you on
1:21:26a leash like they handcuff you they
1:21:27shackle you they Rite do it around your
1:21:29wayist they got your ankles and then
1:21:30they put you on a leash and walk you to
1:21:32visit it's
1:21:34like how the [ __ ] am I gonna
1:21:36run and if your fat butt can't keep up
1:21:38with me you probably shouldn't be
1:21:39working here you know what I'm saying
1:21:41like I literally have every amount of
1:21:45restraint on that exists I don't need a
1:21:47leash and I mean in like multitude of
1:21:50fenes and locked doors it blows my mind
1:21:52they they literally do things just
1:21:55toade you yeah
1:21:57yeah but tell talk a little bit about
1:22:00like I remember when you said you know
1:22:01like you showed up in prison and like I
1:22:03said you were kind of a local celebrity
1:22:05because everybody kind of followed your
1:22:07[ __ ] right yeah so County Jail is like
1:22:10one thing um that's a lot to figure out
1:22:13you know everybody's just trying to a
1:22:15lot of people coming down off [ __ ]
1:22:16they're right fresh off the street
1:22:17there's no
1:22:18structure it's a it's a wild wild it's a
1:22:21wild west you know um but prison was was
1:22:24very interesting to me obviously pretty
1:22:26terrified of going to
1:22:28prison um I remember when I went to uh
1:22:32the reception diagnostic from the county
1:22:34of jail which is it is prison um and I
1:22:36hadn't heard music in a year and a half
1:22:39plus and uh and the co or the I guess
1:22:43the recession officer whoever was
1:22:44driving me um they they had music on the
1:22:48radio and I'm like [ __ ] yeah I turned it
1:22:49up and like literally a corn song I
1:22:52think it was corn and Little John at the
1:22:55time I don't remember but it was just
1:22:56like a and uh that [ __ ] came on as were
1:23:02resting the hill and you could see the
1:23:05prison for the first time and I'm like
1:23:08jam that you know like in my head I'm
1:23:10like man the second I get in there I'm
1:23:13like I'm going to war right I'm letting
1:23:15these people know don't [ __ ] with me
1:23:18like I I'm not trying to mess with
1:23:20people I don't want to fight I do
1:23:22everything I can to avoid it but if
1:23:23somebody wants to test me good luck and
1:23:26I'm listening to this stuff and I'm like
1:23:28and then you get in and they're like Get
1:23:31Naked we're going to spray you with this
1:23:32[ __ ] and put you in a cold shower I'm
1:23:33like
1:23:36damn what do they what do they spray you
1:23:38with uh deicing [ __ ] right deling yeah
1:23:43yeah they literally they literally like
1:23:47spray you with this [ __ ] and like throw
1:23:49powder on you and then you siep in the
1:23:51cold shower and you just sit there just
1:23:54Nast peanut butter sandwich and you said
1:23:55there for like two hours and you're just
1:23:57like well hope Nobody messes with me now
1:24:00I'm like I got no
1:24:02energy and like literally they're
1:24:04talking to this other dude and he had
1:24:06this guy had like 300 years and I'm like
1:24:08what the hell he had like a 80e sentence
1:24:11and a 20e sentence 40 years sent they're
1:24:13all stacked and I'm like Jesus Christ um
1:24:17yeah it was weird but in terms of like
1:24:21getting getting on with people in prison
1:24:23I I people did know who I was and
1:24:27people County with you right yeah so
1:24:30people in the county they were already
1:24:32there and like this dude saw you were
1:24:33there so long yeah I was there so long
1:24:36that I was like quote unquote the OG of
1:24:39the tank like you know I was in the tank
1:24:41longer than everybody um and it doesn't
1:24:45give you a whole lot of of play but like
1:24:47people respect you because you got to go
1:24:49through a lot of stuff and a lot of
1:24:51survival a lot of different mentalities
1:24:53and a lot of [ __ ] with SE to survive
1:24:54that long in County without you know
1:24:57losing it um and so when I got to prison
1:25:01some people knew I was some didn't and
1:25:03they all saw that like okay this dude he
1:25:06seems solid but we'll we'll see um and
1:25:11prison is just not what you think you
1:25:12know I mean it's a it's a weird world
1:25:15that has its own rules it's very
1:25:17segregated uh which is something that
1:25:19I'm not used to uh you know I was told
1:25:23like I play basketball like I I I hoop I
1:25:25do sports land you know like we're we're
1:25:27athletes this what we do and I get in
1:25:30there and I'm hooping and so I got a
1:25:31name for myself immediately because I
1:25:33can hoop I can hit threes I can drive it
1:25:35on people they're like who's this little
1:25:37dude you know people ask me to be on the
1:25:38basketball team and stuff and the other
1:25:41dude that I hooped with was this black
1:25:43kid my age cool kid and uh and we we you
1:25:47know got along real well like most of my
1:25:49friends and we would eat lunch together
1:25:51and we don't know anybody we just got to
1:25:52prison and after after like two or three
1:25:55weeks the white dudes they could see
1:25:57that I I was standing on my own saw it I
1:26:00you know wasn't letting people booger me
1:26:02and uh hey man look we know you kick it
1:26:05with so and so but like that's a bad
1:26:08look like if you keep doing that prison
1:26:11is going to be rough for you you're
1:26:12gonna have a bad reputation I'm like I
1:26:14mean like nothing weird like guess we
1:26:16the same dude he my boy yeah yeah like
1:26:19we kick it like whatever and like nah it
1:26:21just it don't work like that like if you
1:26:22want to come sit with us you can
1:26:25and I was like quote you can with a wink
1:26:29yeah over went over to my homie and I
1:26:30was like look
1:26:32bro this what was told so I'm gonna go
1:26:36sit over here man ain't nothing personal
1:26:37he's like no I get it you know he's like
1:26:40this is the way it works you know and
1:26:41and that's the way it worked for him too
1:26:43like you know when we got out to the
1:26:44yard we still kicked it we still hooped
1:26:46together but you don't sell you don't
1:26:48sit it's just the strangest thing um and
1:26:51and I remember like I would work out and
1:26:54when you go to the yard it's terrifying
1:26:56because that's like real real real
1:26:58prison finally after like year almost
1:27:00two years I me real real prison and I'm
1:27:04working out on my own getting it I'm
1:27:06huge but I'm still terrified of
1:27:08everybody around me some them are kind
1:27:09of like weird I'm like if this dude
1:27:10talks to me I'm gonna swing first and
1:27:12ask questions later this you know
1:27:13whatever and uh and I'm sitting in my
1:27:17cell and this guy comes up to the cell
1:27:18and he's like hey man so and so down
1:27:20here two doors down says uh you know if
1:27:23you want to work out
1:27:24with them you can uh over over like the
1:27:27next the next thing like he he wants to
1:27:29work out with you and I'm like the
1:27:31dude's trying to press me I'm like what
1:27:32do I got to do man like so am I gon have
1:27:35to fight this guy like what's up tell me
1:27:36what's up man and he's like no dude he's
1:27:38like no for real like genuinely the guy
1:27:40just he legit wants to work out with you
1:27:42yeah but I was so spooked man I'm like
1:27:46oh no I'm I gotta tie my shoes up put my
1:27:49my Stak Grays on we're going to war no
1:27:51it don't work like that but so
1:27:53fortunately for me you know I was smart
1:27:55enough to ask the right questions and
1:27:57patient enough that I really didn't have
1:27:59I mean I got jumped a few times and
1:28:01things like that but I didn't really
1:28:03have to fight because I just I always
1:28:06stood on my own I always if anybody
1:28:08tried to do something weird
1:28:09I I mean you know it's just like you
1:28:12know have a dog they they they're like
1:28:14the hair goes up on their back and they
1:28:17like that's how it was I mean it's
1:28:19people when to get weird I'm like I'll
1:28:21get weird with you real quick and people
1:28:23always back back down they don't want
1:28:25problems and I learned that pretty
1:28:26quickly which is fortunate because I
1:28:28don't want problems either like I I'm
1:28:30just I'm forced to be here I'm trying to
1:28:33improve my buiness I'm trying to go home
1:28:34I don't want any problems with anybody
1:28:37so um fortunately as long as you're
1:28:40willing to to stand up for yourself and
1:28:41defend yourself and and and deal with
1:28:44those consequences then you will be safe
1:28:46and you won't have to deal with them
1:28:47which is the strange it's like kind of O
1:28:50but because of that
1:28:52mentality um I I think getting on with
1:28:55people in prison was pretty easy like
1:28:57they knew that I would I would if they
1:28:59wanted problems I would give them to
1:29:00them they knew that I had a reputation
1:29:03as an athlete uh and they knew that I
1:29:06minded my own business and didn't bother
1:29:08people I wasn't going to go out of my
1:29:09way to cause problems to anybody else
1:29:11which you'd be surprised but a lot of
1:29:13people do that and that's what gets most
1:29:14people in trouble um and I didn't get
1:29:17into any other [ __ ] they always say
1:29:18don't get intoh sex drugs and gambling
1:29:21right in prison those three things do
1:29:23exist and if you get into one of the
1:29:25three of them you're probably going to
1:29:26get stabbed at some point you're
1:29:27probably going to get hurt you're
1:29:29probably going to go to the hole for it
1:29:30uh things are going to happen
1:29:32fortunately I'm not into that [ __ ] in
1:29:33there so like you know easy for me to
1:29:36stay away from That's it man it's you
1:29:39know I just stayed in my Lane did they
1:29:42believe that you were innocent oh yeah
1:29:45that was part of it too uh you know to
1:29:47me it wasn't
1:29:49uh a few people commented on it uh one
1:29:53way or the other but like I don't you
1:29:55you don't talk about your case some
1:29:56people do um but if you're some art you
1:29:58don't talk about your case in prison
1:29:59people be like oh man what happened just
1:30:02you know I'm not talking about my case
1:30:04bro you see what you see on TV I'm
1:30:06innocent I got nothing to do with it and
1:30:08some dudes would be like oh no no
1:30:10everybody says they're innocent or like
1:30:12they'll be like nah if you're in here
1:30:13you're guilty or whatever I'm like you
1:30:14are so ignorant and they hate the
1:30:16criminal justice system right because
1:30:17what it's done to them and taking their
1:30:19life and I'm like but you're also just
1:30:20going to believe any old thing you hear
1:30:22I'm like come on man but uh I'm like I
1:30:25don't give a [ __ ] what y'all think about
1:30:26me like this this is who I am this what
1:30:28I'm doing and uh and that's that so
1:30:31there's nothing more to be said about it
1:30:32and I think that's how you got to be in
1:30:34life and in prison you know it's like
1:30:37people who are the weakest are the
1:30:39people
1:30:41who kind of mail to other individuals
1:30:44right like Landon I think one of the
1:30:46things I love about you man is that you
1:30:47are who you are you are a very strong
1:30:51character like this is me take it it you
1:30:54know F you and I'm like yeah that's what
1:30:57I'm saying and you and I you you seem to
1:30:59be a very happy positive uh very
1:31:02respectful person but obviously like
1:31:06you've done what you want to do in your
1:31:08life and you are the person that you
1:31:09want to be and you found success with
1:31:11that and I think that's it's tough to
1:31:13find success if you're not that right
1:31:15because you have no backbone and when I
1:31:17see someone like you I'm like this
1:31:19dude's got a backbone we can we can be
1:31:21cool you know and and if you don't have
1:31:23that I want nothing to do with you and I
1:31:25think you probably know that about
1:31:26people too that's that's why we clicked
1:31:30instantly right it was like you know I
1:31:32didn't even know your story for like you
1:31:34you showed up pickle ball and I don't
1:31:37remember who it was one of the OG older
1:31:39guys were like you know you know who
1:31:40you're playing with right or whatever
1:31:42I'm like some dude from Missouri cool
1:31:44[ __ ] about my age like yoked up like
1:31:46don't don't need to know who he is you
1:31:48know like seems like a good dude and
1:31:50then I was like they you know they tell
1:31:53me they're like well you got watch this
1:31:54documentary or whatever and I was like
1:31:56man you know and then we started kind of
1:31:58playing some more and I was like all
1:31:59right well this guy's real cool like I
1:32:02kind of got to see this documentary that
1:32:04I read and I was like and then I was
1:32:05pissed like that's day I called him I'm
1:32:08like like you know me I'm fiery right we
1:32:11I'm fiery and I was just like like damn
1:32:15the the [ __ ] that they did to my boy
1:32:17like is just not right you know and it's
1:32:19like I just want like people need to
1:32:21hear this story and
1:32:24like yeah just there's so much there
1:32:27that is so wrong on so many levels that
1:32:30I just respect the [ __ ] out of you
1:32:32because I just know me and the anger I
1:32:34think would probably just taken it over
1:32:36and I don't know it just I don't know
1:32:38which way it would have gone I'd like to
1:32:39think that i' you know turn out like you
1:32:42did but you got to turn negative energy
1:32:44into positive action man that's right
1:32:46get it somebody should write a book on
1:32:47that
1:32:49[ __ ] I think that's a I think that's a a
1:32:52great book idea I also Al think um you
1:32:55know when we had first connected Ryan we
1:32:58were like you know we can do a a
1:33:00multi-part series for the podcast we
1:33:02like let's just start with with one and
1:33:04see how far we get um and I think for
1:33:08part one which is this we've gotten to
1:33:11the point of all right you you've made
1:33:14it to prison um and you unpacked all
1:33:17that and I think from here you know I'd
1:33:20like to in a future episode talk through
1:33:24how how'd you get out I want to talk a
1:33:26lot about your dad if you're cool with
1:33:28that um I see that guy's a boss and and
1:33:32I gota uh try not to get emotional
1:33:35talking about uh that in depth because
1:33:37the whole time I'm seeing him like
1:33:38thinking of my dad and I'm like he would
1:33:41do that same [ __ ] um he your dad seems
1:33:45pretty calm my dad can be calm but I
1:33:48feel like he'd also get in trouble uh as
1:33:52as he's fighting on my behalf but I
1:33:54picture another part of this being the
1:33:57come up and how like how that actually
1:34:01come to fruition and then what life
1:34:03looks like now so I think this a perfect
1:34:06stopping point for part one and um yeah
1:34:10we just appreciate it dude you
1:34:12absolutely you got a in an unfortunate
1:34:14way but also there's a lot of fortunate
1:34:16things that have happened as a a result
1:34:18of it and your mindset and what you've
1:34:20been able to do but uh
1:34:23you got a pretty cool
1:34:25story pretty shitty story but but it's a
1:34:29really cool it's a really cool story and
1:34:31and I know we're just kind of scratching
1:34:34the surface here but we appreciate you
1:34:36spending some time with us and and
1:34:37sharing with our our listeners and
1:34:39there's a lot of lot of good takeaways
1:34:42uh that people have from just this part
1:34:45I appreciate that and then and I know
1:34:47there's certain takeaways that people
1:34:50are going to take and appreciate more
1:34:52but one of my biggest things is and I
1:34:55just want to leave it with this is
1:34:56ultimately
1:34:58that in our criminal justice system as
1:35:02my case proves and I'm telling you there
1:35:05are a lot of other cases I could direct
1:35:07you to 20 of them right now I could
1:35:09direct you to a hundred of them right
1:35:11now of other individuals just like me
1:35:14probably just like you who this has
1:35:15happened to this can happen to any of us
1:35:18at any time it can happen to your kids
1:35:19it can happen to your family it's it's
1:35:22terrifying
1:35:24and this is our criminal this is ours
1:35:26right it's not their criminal this is
1:35:27our criminal justice system so be aware
1:35:31of it look into it if you see a case you
1:35:33know maybe dig a Little Deeper if you
1:35:35read a paragraph and in the story in the
1:35:37local newspaper they don't get the best
1:35:39information they're getting it from the
1:35:40police right if you if you're curious
1:35:43dig into it a little bit you might learn
1:35:46something you might be able to help
1:35:47somebody if you're interested if you're
1:35:48not you know don't worry about it it
1:35:49doesn't matter
1:35:51but the biggest thing is this is our
1:35:54criminal justice system and and we can
1:35:56make it better and like I was saying
1:35:57with you know developing who you want to
1:36:00be and and growing and all those things
1:36:02it all starts with awareness right so if
1:36:05anything is taken from this just be
1:36:07aware of the fact that we live in a an
1:36:10amazing country
1:36:11obviously Limitless opportunities
1:36:14beautiful here I mean like I couldn't I
1:36:15wouldn't live anywhere else in the world
1:36:17but our criminal justice system is
1:36:19broken on a lot of levels so we're all
1:36:23responsible for that it impacts us all
1:36:26um and I'm just glad that I have the
1:36:27opportunity to kind of talk about that
1:36:29and and a bunch of other things so I
1:36:31appreciate you guys are there any
1:36:33particular um you know outside of like
1:36:36you said you know reading in the local
1:36:38newspaper and digging a little bit
1:36:39deeper are there any particular uh
1:36:41organizations or places that people can
1:36:45go support get information from that
1:36:48you're uh partial to or that you're at
1:36:50least aware of um because a lot of times
1:36:52people don't even know that this stuff
1:36:55exists right everyone's living their own
1:36:57lives and until it affects them
1:36:59personally um they don't even think
1:37:01about it so if you've peaked their
1:37:04interest to learn a little bit more
1:37:06where should they go very good very good
1:37:08point David um like you know I would not
1:37:11have known or cared about any of this
1:37:13had I not been arrested uh which is
1:37:15scary met you right like I mean I didn't
1:37:18I was it was it never affected me
1:37:19personally until like I said it happened
1:37:21to one of my boys and it was like this
1:37:23is an issue even when I was arested I'm
1:37:24like this has happened I must be the
1:37:26only person in the world this has ever
1:37:27happened to right I've learned sense
1:37:29that that is absolutely not true um but
1:37:33uh so for me it is you know it's it is
1:37:36actually in front of us a lot like I
1:37:37read the New York Times quite often it
1:37:40they talk about a a lot of wrongful
1:37:41convictions but uh it's probably in your
1:37:43local paper it's probably in the
1:37:45National Paper it's probably on the
1:37:46national news so if you see those things
1:37:48you'll probably pay more attention to it
1:37:50but if you want to go out and seek it um
1:37:53I'm a big fan of the Midwest Innocence
1:37:55Project they have a National
1:37:57Organization which is definitely worth
1:37:59looking at they've done a lot of amazing
1:38:01work built a lot of structures that need
1:38:04to be implemented to help wrongfully
1:38:07convicted people bring about awareness
1:38:09Midwest Innocence Project because one
1:38:11they helped with my case a little bit uh
1:38:13two they are local I was on the board of
1:38:15directors there I know the people who
1:38:17run it fantastic people working very
1:38:19hard to prove individuals innocence they
1:38:22get a couple people three four five out
1:38:24every year and to do that to get one
1:38:27person out of prison on average it takes
1:38:2910 years and
1:38:30$300,000 right now what does it take if
1:38:33you just don't convict them nothing
1:38:34right um for me it took 10 years and and
1:38:38close to a million dollars which we
1:38:40didn't have fortunately it was pro bono
1:38:41people helped and supported and I had a
1:38:43pro bono attorney and um but you know
1:38:47this the tip of the iceberg so if you if
1:38:49you Google Midwest inance project or the
1:38:51Innocence Project or whatever state you
1:38:53live in their local Innocence Project if
1:38:56you want to get get down on more
1:38:57Grassroots level more local you can you
1:38:59can go and support they have fundraisers
1:39:01you can go talk to the people who run it
1:39:04you can um do a lot of different things
1:39:06to support individual cases uh there's a
1:39:09lot of resources so definitely check
1:39:11them out that's that's a really solid
1:39:13starting point um and then once you
1:39:16start going down the rabbit hole I think
1:39:17you'll you'll find more and more ways to
1:39:19get involved more people to reach out to
1:39:22more cases that needs support um I mean
1:39:25literally like for me we were on
1:39:28Facebook uh and this is right when
1:39:30Facebook was getting big but we had
1:39:31100,000 supporters and I fundamentally
1:39:33believe that it held the Attorney
1:39:35General accountable because they knew if
1:39:38they tried to retry me or do some BS
1:39:41there were 100,000 people watching and
1:39:43these people emailed and wrote the
1:39:44governor and they called the governor
1:39:46and they said no more you know and and
1:39:49each one of those people I'm so grateful
1:39:51for they didn't have to do that
1:39:54but because they did it was this this
1:39:57Collective Community right it does take
1:39:59an army and that's just to get one
1:40:01person out so you know if you believe in
1:40:04something you believe in a case you
1:40:06believe in
1:40:07in a wrong that our our government is
1:40:10doing to us we can all reach out and
1:40:13make that change but we have to do it
1:40:15together so yep that's what I would do
1:40:18love it appreciate the time and looking
1:40:21forward to uh unpack back in part two
1:40:24brother let's do it appreciate you guys
1:40:26have a good one appreciate it and before
1:40:28before we sign off um for everyone
1:40:30listening we appreciate your time and
1:40:32attention and Ryan if you could just do
1:40:34me a favor in between part one and part
1:40:36two since I'm not local um if you can
1:40:40just make sure that kick Landon's ass
1:40:42and pick a ball next time you're playing
1:40:44together i' I'd really appreciate that I
1:40:47would say Pro no problem but he gives me
1:40:49some problems
1:40:50I'm we're g to get after and he gets me
1:40:53don't worry about that do my best do my
1:40:55best all right gentlemen appreciate you
1:40:58guys all right
1:41:04[Music]
1:41:12[Music]

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